November 20, 2025 • 45 mins
⚠️ CONTENT WARNING The following episode includes emotional discussion on burnout, exhaustion, and mental health that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion advised.
Dr. Kristen Donnelly is a sociologist, four-time TED Speaker, and co-author of The Culture of Burnout. She’s made it her life’s work to expose one hard truth: burnout isn’t weakness — it’s culture.
In this conversation:
-
The Puritan work ethic and how it still fuels American burnout
-
Why “suck it up” culture keeps responders sick
-
The body’s breaking point — when rest stops being optional
-
Curiosity as the antidote to guilt
-
The four pillars of recovery: Rest, Rejuvenation, Realignment, and Reconnection
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Why joy isn’t indulgence — it’s survival
-
What leaders can do to stop rewarding exhaustion
Kristen’s message is simple: you’re not broken — you’re burned out. And it’s fixable.
🔗 Links 🌐 Dr. Kristen Donnelly → https://drkristenspeaks.com 📘 Book: The Culture of Burnout (by Dr. Kristen Donnelly & Erin Harlow)
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🧠 Need support right now? Call or text 988 or visit 988lifeline.org. You’re not alone — not in this job, not in this fight. 📱 Follow us on Facebook: Dispatched and Dysfunctional 🌐 Visit: www.critical-run.com to connect, share your story, or just vent 🎤 Got a call that changed you? Submit your story — we’ll carry it with care (and maybe a little dark humor). ⚠️ Disclaimer: This podcast contains graphic content, emotional storytelling, and dark humor based on real-life EMS and first responder experiences. Listener discretion is advised. Any medical discussion is personal opinion, not medical advice. Always follow your local protocols, medical direction, and training guidelines. This podcast isn’t about fairy tales. It’s about real calls, real chaos, and the medics who survive both. Dispatched & Dysfunctional — because sometimes the worst calls… make the best stories.Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
intro (00:00):
9 1 1.
(00:01):
What's your emergency?
The following contentis graphic emotional.
And includes dark humor that maynot be suitable for all listeners.
Discretion is advised.
Explicit content included.
These stories are based on real lifeEMS and first responder experiences.
The calls are real, the providersare real names, and patient details
(00:21):
have been changed to protect privacy.
Episodes may include trauma, suicideabuse, medical emergencies, mental
health struggles, or things yourHR department would definitely not
approve of any advice, opinions,or discussion of medical procedures
are based on personal experience.
And should never override your localprotocols, medical direction or training.
(00:42):
Use your damn brain.
Follow your guidelines andyour local or agency protocols.
Follow your training.
And when in doubt, call med control.
Most importantly, if you'restruggling, don't do it alone.
Talk to someone, a coworker, afriend, a therapist, or help.
Reach out to me.
I'll answer.
Need help right now.
(01:03):
Text or call 9 8 8 orvisit 9 88 lifeline.org.
Christopher Stockton (01:15):
Welcome back to Dispatch, dysfunctional.
Today we're tearing into a topicevery responder knows too well,
burnout and not the Instagram kind.
With candles and yoga mats, the kind thatmakes you stare at the ceiling at 3:00 AM
and wonder if you can keep doing this job.
One more shift.
Our guest is Dr.
Kristen Donnelley, four time Ted.
Speaker, researcher, co-authorof the Culture of Burnout.
(01:37):
She doesn't buy the idea thatburnout is an individual failure.
She says it's cultural, systemic.
If we wanna survive it, we'vegotta stop blaming ourselves and
start asking better questions.
Kristen, welcome to the show.
I framed you as a burnout researcherand speaker, but bios never
catch the full pi full picture.
What would you like to add about yourselfand what's the key message you want
listeners to carry away from this episode?
Kristen Donnelly (02:00):
Oh my gracious.
Well, first of all,thank you for having me.
Um, and thank you everyone in the soundof my voice for the work that you do.
You are never thanked enough.
So I know it's probably cheesyand you're rolling your eyes,
but I want to thank you.
Um, the.
Other thing I would love you for you toknow is that I have been working with
and caring about people my entire life,and I have survived burnout myself, um,
(02:25):
for sure, which is a big part of why I'mso passionate about this conversation.
But more than anything I have seen thatit, it looks so different in so many
different people, and I wanted to createtools that would work for everyone despite
their particular flavor of burnout.
Christopher Stockton (02:41):
I love it.
That makes sense.
Everybody's burnout showsdifferently, appears differently,
and completely presents differently.
Kristen Donnelly (02:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
Christopher Stockton (02:50):
So, Kristen, you said burnout is cultural,
not personal for folks in EMSwho are told just toughen it up.
What do you mean by that?
Kristen Donnelly (02:59):
Uh, well,
I mean, America wants you to toughen up.
Like I think on a very real level,American burnout is, is a different flavor
than some other cultures and countries.
Burnout exists everywhere.
Obviously we hear a lot aboutthe burnout in Japan and, and
South Korea in particular, andin kind of in those spaces.
(03:20):
But we don't really talk aboutburnout in America because we actually
see burnout as a badge of honor.
The reason that we see it that way,and I'm sure you guys see this so
much in your particular profession, isthat way, way, way, way back in the 16
hundreds, the first group of white folksthat showed up and colonized the land
had three core beliefs about society.
(03:43):
One is that you are only a goodperson if you work really hard.
Christopher Stockton (03:48):
Hmm.
Kristen Donnelly (03:48):
Two is that you can only work hard if you do it by yourself.
And three is that restis for when you are dead.
Christopher Stockton (03:56):
Yeah, I hear that a lot lately.
Kristen Donnelly (03:58):
Uh huh And so those three things line up pretty well with
like the version of capitalism thatthrived in the 16 and 17 and 18 hundreds.
And so, you know, every other waveof of immigrants that came saw what
the Puritans did, and they werelike, oh, that's the kind, like,
that's what the American dream is.
Got it.
Okay.
If I want my streets paved withgold, then I need to do this.
(04:22):
And so by the time we get to thecodification of what of America, the
founding documents, all of that wasassumed as part of life in the new world.
we've never poked at it before.
We've never said, are we sure?
We've never said, does this work?
We've never really explored it.
And a lot of that is because we didn'tlet a lot of other people, the, you know,
(04:42):
the cultural structures that we had tosupport society where only certain people
were in the workforce and other peoplewere forced to be in other circumstances.
It kind of supported that world.
And then in the last, you know, 50 ish.
Years.
A little bit longer than that, butdefinitely the last 50 ish years, more and
more people have been like, you know what?
I don't think I need to do this anymore.
(05:02):
Um.
And also that kind ofconversation has shifted with
some generational things as well.
But all that to say, in order to besuccessful in America, and by that we
mean successful in America, means theaccumulation of resources, money, land,
power, whatever you are successful inAmerica, if you do those things, in order
(05:23):
to do those things, you have to burn outor someone else has to on your behalf.
Christopher Stockton (05:28):
Huh.
Never heard it put that way.
And that actually does makea lot of sense that Okay.
Wow.
So I know you said in within the last50 years, why is it within the last 50
years we've been looking at it more?
Is that just a research perspective ora medical perspective, or are we just
able to focus more on it now because ofus being able to see the vast majority
(05:52):
of burnout and PTSD and and responders.
Kristen Donnelly (05:56):
You know, I'll be honest, I think it's
a yes to all of those factors.
I don't.
You know, I don't go superdeep into the medical research.
I read what I need to, to understand.
I'm a sociologist.
Um, my doc, that's what my doctorateis in, um, is in sociology and I
have experience in social work, um,and, uh, cross-cultural anthropology
and adolescent development as well.
(06:17):
So that's kind of my bucket.
Um, but honestly, one of thethings that really triggered it
was women being allowed to workoutside the home in larger numbers.
And that once that began to happen, whichthat really began to happen with the
invention of the birth control pill, oncethat began to happen and women began to
realize that, yes, they left the home, butthen they came home and they were expected
(06:39):
to do the same amount of work, thenbefore they got outside the house jobs.
So a lot of women began to justwork all the time, two jobs.
And so then if you had to take asecond paid job, you're working
three to four jobs at one time.
That started to kind of exposethe lie of our society that any,
(07:00):
any of those myths, I said at thebeginning that, you know, you're
only a good person if you work hard.
Like all these kind of otherthings aren't necessarily true.
Um.
That, especially the alone thing.
America is one of the most individualisticco countries on the planet.
We have these myths of self-made people.
I'm using air quotes'cause those don't exist.
(07:22):
Like Elon Musk is not self-made.
Steve Jobs is not self-made.
Like they're just not.
They needed a whole lot of, if theyneed a whole lot of people, if nothing
else, their mothers gave birth to themand therefore they needed their mothers.
But like they need peopleto do what they did.
They're just the solo front men.
That doesn't mean thatthey've done it all alone.
They just want you to believethat because then you can't
(07:43):
achieve what they've achieved.
But you guys, in your profession, youknow, you can't do anything by yourself.
There has to be partnerships, therehas to be, you know, stuff together,
um, or stuff gets a little dicey.
And unfortunately, a lot of the rest of usin our jobs have not translated that into
foundational things of our profession.
And so in the last.
(08:04):
I mean really as more and morepeople began to question, oh my gosh.
So in Europe they get six weeks vacationand, and those countries still function.
Why do I get five days?
Christopher Stockton (08:15):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (08:17):
And we start to have people travel a lot more.
We start to have multinationalcorporations, then we start to have
millennials coming into power whospent, who did study abroads in college.
They met people in differentcultures, in different countries,
and all of a sudden you juststart to get a lot more questions.
Christopher Stockton (08:33):
Yeah, I've actually worked with a bunch of Europeans and it,
it's very interesting to see the vast.
Differences in our cultures.
Um, even though most of us do haveEuropean descents, the way that
Europe operates and treats theirpeople is completely different
(08:54):
than us here in the States.
Kristen Donnelly (08:56):
Absolutely.
And I lived in Northern Irelandfor a, a bunch of years and
that's where my husband is from.
So he and I talk a lot.
He's worked in the US beforetoo, so he has a, a, a specific
perspective that's always helpful.
But one of the things we always say isthat Northern Ireland, so therefore.
Most of the, the rest of the UK and,and the Republic of Ireland as well,
(09:17):
um, kind of across, over generalization,but their cultural priority is
family or, you know, something else.
Our cultural priority isAmericans is productivity.
Christopher Stockton (09:29):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (09:31):
And so the minute that you value productivity over personhood.
You are going to get theproblems we face now.
And you know, the WHO identifiedburnout as a problem a while ago,
but they also said it only exists inworkplaces, which I find to be crap.
And so does my, you know, my researchpartner and, and, um, Aaron, who I
(09:54):
wrote the book with, there's just noway burnout, burnout occurs anywhere.
That you are expected to bring yourtime, talents, and expertise, and
you are not given adequate timeto take a break from that space.
So for anyone listening, workmight not be burning you out.
You might be thriving atwork, but home is killing you.
That doesn't mean you aren't burned out.
Christopher Stockton (10:16):
Hmm.
I never thought of it that way.
So that, that brings meto this question here.
So what's one story or pattern you'veseen that proves burnout isn't about
weakness, but about systems failing us?
Kristen Donnelly (10:29):
Oh my gosh.
Oh, so first of all, you should alwaysknow that I just don't think that weakness
is this terrible, terrible weaknessmeans taking a break sometimes and
letting other people carry the thing.
Um, it doesn't mean failure or giving up.
That's just not how I see it.
So with that caveat.
(10:49):
I would say that, I'll sharea personal one actually.
So a couple years ago, I think it waslike fall of 22, fall of 22, I had
been going, you know, quote unquote,probably nonstop since the fall of 2015.
I had been traveling, I had been, um.
Helping.
(11:10):
You know, my, I'm partof a family business.
I'm the co-owner of a network ofcompanies that my father started.
And at that point in time for,you know, a little while, we
had one in North Carolina.
I spent a lot of timeoutside of Philadelphia.
I barely saw my husbandexcept over text message.
Um.
But like I would have told you, Imean, lockdown honestly, like was
the time that we've seen each otherthe most in the last 10 years.
(11:32):
Um, but I would've toldyou that I was fine.
I was totally fine.
Yeah.
I was tired and I felt overwhelmed and,and like, you know, me, I would stumble
a lot over my words, but I was fine.
And then in the kind of beginningof December, I woke up coughing so
hard that my body was jackknifing.
Christopher Stockton (11:52):
Oh wow,
Kristen Donnelly (11:53):
And, uh, went to the doctor and he diagnosed
me with double walking pneumonia
Christopher Stockton (11:59):
fun.
Kristen Donnelly (12:00):
and put me on my sofa and said, I do not have children.
And so he was very clear.
If I had children, I would'vegone to the hospital.
Um, because I was not in a place tocare for anything else besides myself.
And caring for myselfmeant sitting on my sofa.
And that as a, you know, hypomanicworkaholic, that was a death sentence.
I could not fathom it.
(12:22):
Um, and I was so overwhelmed.
I think I took like two daysmentally to like sleep or like
watch reality TV or something.
And then I was messaging my team andtalking to my, my dad and my brother.
And I'm like, okay, gimme work to do.
And they're like, you havedouble walking pneumonia.
What are you talking about?
Christopher Stockton (12:38):
You need to take
Kristen Donnelly (12:39):
And I'm like, well, I don't, like, I
don't wanna let anybody down.
And they're like, if youdie, you'll let us down more.
Christopher Stockton (12:45):
That's very true.
You can't take care ofanybody when you're dead.
Kristen Donnelly (12:48):
Nope.
Can't help anybody.
So I felt like I had done somethingterribly wrong by not being available.
But what was true is that my bodyfinally got through to me and my body
finally said, no, no, we're done now.
This has been a while.
You need to stop, and because youare not capable of making that
(13:09):
decision, we will make it for you.
Christopher Stockton (13:12):
Hm.
Kristen Donnelly (13:13):
And so on the back end of that, I had, you know,
that triggered some, some biggermental health questions I needed
to answer and I needed to address.
Um, I sat on my sofa for six weeks.
It is the longest I have not worked,I honestly think since kindergarten.
Um, I started working for my dadwhen I was nine in the summers.
(13:34):
Um, so even a little bitearlier, I think probably eight.
So like it's been work has been a hugepart of my life and I would've said that
stopping was weakness for a lot of it.
And now the more I studied thestress cycle, the more I studied
the physiology of our bodies, themore I realize that individualism is
a cancer that's killing all of us.
The more I am both sociologically andemotionally convinced that capitalism
(13:59):
has packaged stopping as weaknessbecause they can't make money off of it.
Christopher Stockton (14:05):
I never heard it put that way.
That makes a lot of sense.
I I like that one.
So why do many high performers feel likeit's their fault when they hit the wall?
Kristen Donnelly (14:15):
Because we're told from a very early age that
we have control over our future.
We can be whatever we want to be.
We can do it all.
We can, I mean, pick a thing.
Like pick.
And so subconsciously that sinksinto our brains as believing.
Therefore, if we don't do all thethings we want to do, if we don't
(14:39):
accomplish our whole to-do list, if wedon't conquer the world, if we're not
on times 40, under 40, we have failed.
Christopher Stockton (14:47):
Yes, ma'am.
I like it.
And then so you've writtenabout curiosity as an antidote.
How can asking more questionsactually help fight the burnout?
Kristen Donnelly (14:57):
In so many ways.
So first of all, we need, I will say thatI deeply believe that curiosity is the
most important thing a leader can have.
Full stop.
Christopher Stockton (15:09):
Okay.
Kristen Donnelly (15:10):
And you guys see this in your profession too.
You have to be curious aboutwhatever is happening at the scene.
You have to be curious about what'sever happening with a patient.
You have to be curious, but as is oftenthe case for any profession, my guess
is that a lot of you don't take thatcuriosity to other places in your life.
Christopher Stockton: A lot of the times, no. (15:26):
undefined
I think some of us, myself,I know for a fact, uh.
I don't like asking a lot ofquestions when I'm off of work
because it seems to draw me backto work, if that makes any sense.
Kristen Donnelly (15:40):
Completely valid.
I mean, I, I teach, you know, empathy andburnout, prevention and leadership and
all these kind of things, and then I'llgo home at night and snap at my husband
constantly, and I just spent eight hourstelling other people not to do that.
This is very, very normal.
Christopher Stockton (15:56):
Right.
And I think it's just.
As you were saying earlier is thecapitalism in America, and you know,
the jobs we have is we get so absorbedin our, our own lives and our work
that we have no choice but to take ithome with us and the PTSD, the burnout.
It, it, it creates such a stressmentally and physically that we don't
(16:19):
have any other way to let it out otherthan our close ones that are as close
to us as possible and we trust because.
That's just how we are was thecloser someone is to you, the
more you take it out on them.
Kristen Donnelly (16:33):
Well, think about it this way.
Back in the days of your, when we werehunters and gatherers, you would, you
know, the, the hunters would go out andtry to get food for everybody else, and
they would encounter a bear, let's say,and the bear was not going to be hunted.
The bear was going to eat them.
So their physiological response wasto get the, was to get out of there.
Christopher Stockton (16:51):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (16:52):
Run as fast as you can, get back to the place where you
are safe, where your body will let goof all of the, that, those chemicals,
those stress chemicals, and exhale.
The problem right now is thatour chemicals have not updated
and so any stress event is.
(17:15):
Is generally seen as a bear coming at you.
So stress events in y'all's jobs,but also stress events in your life.
Your body produces the same amountof chemicals, and so the minute
you can get somewhere you aresafe, the chemicals will calm down.
Here's the problem, when you've beenin burnout for a long time, some of
(17:36):
you may have been in it for years,some of you may go in and out of it.
Some of you don't know whatwe're talking about, all of that.
What will happen is that you actuallydon't have the emotional capacity,
the deeper you are in burnout to likehuman again, if that makes sense.
So everything is still a crisis.
(17:56):
You're still in fight or flight mode.
Even though you're safe andyour hormones have calmed down,
your body is so intense on.
Like all of it, the PTSD, the, you know,anything else you want to chunk into that.
There's not space to human,
but you're safe, right?
You're with the people that you love.
(18:17):
Unfortunately, it's like this double-edgedsword where like, you're safe now,
but because you aren't, your bodydoesn't actually think you're safe.
It's not fully safe.
It hasn't fully calmed down.
These consequences kind of come out.
And so when we talkabout burnout prevention.
We, we talk about these practicesthat we like to introduce to
increase your emotional capacity.
You're not a bad person that you snappedat your wife, you're exhausted, and
(18:40):
that exhaustion is not your fault.
However, it, it is your responsibilityand there are things you can do about it.
And I think that.
We have conflated for a long time,responsibility and fault, and that
has frozen a lot of us in figuringout what to do about burnout.
'cause the minute someone tells you,well, if you haven't, you know, saw,
oh, like, oh my gosh, do four yogaroutines a week and take a bubble bath
(19:03):
and go on vacation and you'll be fine.
And then you do all of thosethings and you come back and
you're like, I'm not fine.
You immediately assume thatsomething's wrong with you.
Christopher Stockton (19:12):
And it, it's funny you just said that 'cause
that's actually my next questionis, you've joked that bubble bass
and yoga treats don't fix burnout.
Why not?
Kristen Donnelly (19:19):
Because they don't work for everybody, man.
Like that's the thing.
So my best friend who I work with, Erin,who, and I wrote the book, she loves yoga.
Like she really does.
And we joke about this all the time.
She loves yoga, it works for her.
I went about three times, hated it.
Um, just absolutely hated it.
And so every time I would go to anyof these things and hear like, well,
(19:41):
yoga is really what'll cure burnout, Iwould just sit there and be like, well,
guess that's never happening for me.
Great.
Um, and I'd go on Instagram and itwould be like, well buy this set
of candles for three installmentsof 1995 and if you meditate and
all these kind of other things.
And I, like, I grew up in the church andso there was a lot of things when I was
growing up in the, you know, nineties,it was like, well, you should pray for
(20:03):
X number of hours a day or X number ofminutes a day, or X number, whatever.
And that's just meditation to me now.
So people that are likemeditate for X number of days,
I'm like, hi, I have bipolar.
We don't want me insilence alone with my head.
That's not.
What's gonna work here, so wegotta figure out something else.
Uh, and I don't like bubble bathsand I have chronic pain and so like
(20:24):
being in one position isn't great.
So Erin and I went down this whole list oflike everything we'd ever been recommended
we're both in our early forties.
I started going to women's conferences atlike 10 11 and hearing about preventing
burnout then, 'cause I was at ministryconferences again, grew up in the church.
Um.
And so, and burnout is massivein professional church life.
Utterly massive.
(20:46):
Um, yeah, it's, um, it, it's.
Whole theories as to why that is.
Um, but at the same, it's, it'sa similar level to education,
uh, like professional education.
So for a lot of the same reasons.
But all that to say, I've beenbeing told for years that here
are the things that will solve it.
Well, here's the issue.
And one of the big things that peoplekept saying was, just get enough sleep.
(21:08):
And I was like, okay.
I would, I would love to do that.
Could you tell me how like.
How, and they're like,well just get more sleep.
And I'm like, you are entirely unhelpful.
Like, what?
What is this?
So we, so we started digging in andwhat it really comes down to is that
whatever works for you when it worksis great, but no one has the right
(21:29):
to say what works for other people.
And if somebody stands before youand says, here, take my course.
You know, take this supplement, join thisrunning club, it will cure your burnout.
They are selling you something,
Christopher Stockton (21:45):
And most of the time it's snake oil.
Kristen Donnelly (21:47):
and most of the time it's snake oil.
Now again, if that snake oilworks for you, rock on, but
if it doesn't work for you.
Please give yourself grace.
Assume that remember that life iswritten in pencil and try something else.
Because the curiosity to kind oftry this back, I totally respect not
wanting to ask questions at home.
Like why?
Why would you guys, and the questionsyou ask during the day are life or death.
(22:09):
So why are you asking like, what arewe having for dinner when you get home?
Like that's a different scale.
But the curiosity I wouldencourage you to start with is
the curiosity of your own self.
So when you snap at somebody,when you are somebody you
don't like very much, ask why.
And if the first thought is,well, just my job is hard.
Okay, no, no, no, no.
What about today was hard?
(22:33):
Is what was hard today,systemic or momentary.
If it's systemic, isthere another solution?
Is there a support structure?
Do I need to talk to somebody?
The more curious you can getwith yourself, the more of
that capacity that you'll have.
And then we build in these kind ofother solutions around it that I'm
sure I'll talk about in a minute.
And that capacity gets, gets a lot biggerin order to create health for you and
(22:55):
everyone that you love and care about.
Christopher Stockton: That actually answered. (22:57):
undefined
My next question I was gonna ask is what'sone practical step people can take that's
more effective than self-care hacks?
But you pretty muchjust answered that one.
Kristen Donnelly (23:07):
Well, I mean, I've got some others too.
If people aren't in a place to dothat, if you're not in a place to
do that, there's even smaller ones.
'cause that's hard work.
Being curious with yourself is hard work.
Being, being all of that is hard work.
So we have four categories that we sayyou need to mind and build practices.
Around that will help do it kind ofthe four pillars of burnout prevention.
(23:29):
And the first one is rest.
And I can only imagine thaty'all's is totally screwed up.
Christopher Stockton (23:34):
at all.
Kristen Donnelly (23:35):
like totally screwed up.
So I don't know what those, what thosekind of tips or solutions or, or anything
for y'all's profession would look like.
So I'm not going to.
I'm not going to presume, I, I am justgoing to say like, we know physiologically
that in order to perform at our leaststressed point, we do need to sleep.
So that has to happen insome way, shape, or form.
(23:56):
Um, but while you're workingon that, there's some others.
One is, is rejuvenation.
We have to do things that make ushappy on a routine and regular basis.
They can be big things.
Like I really, I reallylove going to Disney.
Um, and I really love going, I reallylove Taylor Swift and, uh, I really
(24:18):
love sports and I go to as much livehockey and baseball as I possibly can,
and those are big things that make mehappy, but so is like this one brand
of coffee that I make sure I have.
In my K-Cup every morning, and like Joyis not a negotiable entity of human life.
It's not the forgotten thingthat we just let kids do.
(24:38):
It's joy is an animating featureof human life and we have
to, we have to prioritize it.
Christopher Stockton (24:43):
I think Joy
Kristen Donnelly (24:44):
then the next one.
Christopher Stockton (24:45):
not to interrupt you, but I, I think joy is honestly
something that a lot of peopleoverlook and is necessary in our lives.
'cause without joy it wouldbe nothing but depression.
Kristen Donnelly (24:55):
Absolutely.
And I, you know, we look at allof the, you know, movies of the
eighties where like they peoplewere working until like eight.
You know, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 atnight in offices and it's all
drudgery and everything else.
And then they find like the joy withinthem, you know, like, you know, the movie
hook, like Robin Williams learns how tobe Peter Pan again 'cause he has fun.
And we just take those movies and thenwe say, oh, that doesn't apply to me.
(25:18):
But like, no, it, it does, it really does.
And there's lots of research on cortisollevels and happiness and all this kinda
other stuff, but just like colloquially,people that have fun with life.
Amidst the hard work amidst theeverything else amidst life, but
they also prioritize fun, are morefun for all of us to be around.
And it just kind of likefun, begets fun, begets fun,
Christopher Stockton (25:38):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (25:39):
um, and also fun is not productive.
Fun is just fun.
Christopher Stockton (25:45):
Again,
Kristen Donnelly (25:45):
And so if you can.
Take time away to cultivate joy.
That's, that's not a productivefeature that, that is like within
the realm of your profession.
Um, and so then the third I, we callit realignment and we just really
want you to remember who you arein the universe and that you are
important, but you aren't imperative,like you're allowed to take naps.
(26:06):
And you're allowed to take breaks becausethe tides will come in without you.
And that sounds really, really basic andkind of laughable, but it is actually
often something any high achiever forgets.
And it, you know, thatthat's a major thing.
And so if, if you, somebody hasa. Dedicated spiritual practice.
This is where we say to do that, torealign with your spiritual practice.
(26:28):
If you don't have one, comeup with a practice that
reminds you how small you are.
And not in a bad way, butjust in a realistic way.
Uh, and then the final one isreconnection, which is find your people
and spend intentional time with them.
This is not proximity with strangers.
This is not being, youknow, like this is not that.
This is, here are my handful of peoplewho know me when I have forgotten
(26:52):
who I am and here is how I willmake sure I spend time with them.
And the more you can cultivatepractices around those four pillars,
rest, rejuvenation, realignment,and reconnection, the the, the
more you can prevent burnout.
'cause here's the other thing,the other secret, you're never,
ever permanently out of it, ever.
(27:13):
In, in professional life in America,we're all gonna dip in and out of, of
being threatened by it all the time.
It's not a linear thing.
Life changes, things happen.
Parents get sick, kids getsick, all of that kind of stuff.
So the more you can build thosepractices and the more you can sure
yourself up again against the thingthat will most likely happen again.
Christopher Stockton (27:35):
I gotcha.
So you've worked across generations.
What does Gen Z call out differentlythan, say, boomers for burnout?
Kristen Donnelly (27:45):
They deeply believe that like as a generation right now,
pattern wise, that their time is theirsand so they will give you the time they're
on shifts or whatever, but outside ofthat, that time does not belong to you.
Older generations didn'tview it that way necessarily.
(28:09):
Um, now d differentprofessions are different.
I, you know, from the research I've readon y'all's, that's not a universal issue
that you face, unlike some other spaces.
Um, but that's a really big one.
There's a lot around,um, you know, protecting.
Protecting peace in a way, liketheir way to kind of mitigate
(28:31):
burnout is often getting rid of thestressful people in their lives.
And they're also, from my perspectiveat the moment, assuming things about
burnout that are not necessarilytrue, including that like physical
activity is the main way to prevent it.
(28:53):
Um, and that that's.
That's a little bit of adifference that I hope evolves.
I also would love to know if that, thatI would love to learn that my research in
that has holes in it, if that makes sense.
Christopher Stockton (29:06):
It does.
It does it.
So in healthcare and EMS, youknow, we always hear the suck
it up is practically the policy.
So how do we start rewriting that screw?
And making it better.
Kristen Donnelly (29:18):
It's a great question and it's gonna, I think,
I think require relationships.
So we all know that there are peoplethat never suck it up and are very gentle
with themselves and walk away easily,and all those kind of other things.
They need to be encouraged to be committedversus other people that will tell you
(29:39):
they're fine with, you know, half theirhead falling off and they need to be
encouraged to remember that you're inthis profession for a long time, not,
not a short time, and the constantconversation of that all of this is a
marathon and we all feel this urgency,that it's a sprint and it's simply not.
It's a marathon that is flexible andchangeable and we can make it work.
(30:02):
And so it's a lot of conversations aroundwhat does hard work really mean for you?
What do these hours mean?
What does this work mean?
What is important to you in your job?
How do I make sure that you get that?
That happening, and you don't takeon everybody else's important thing.
So it's a lot.
Again, curiosity about your folks.
(30:23):
Curiosity about yourself,figuring out what your values are.
You know, most first respondersI've talked to, I ask them
why they're in the job.
The first answer is, I wanna help peopleand I dig deeper and there's nuances.
To it, you know, I really wannamake sure my neighborhood is safer.
I really wanna make sure that, um,the schools are really cared about.
I wanna make sure thatthere's less gun violence.
(30:43):
Like there's, there's nuancesonce you dig, and if we can dig
to those nuances and create plansaround those nuances, that might
be a really good place to start.
Christopher Stockton (30:52):
Okay, that, that, I've never heard it put that way,
and that actually, I never actuallydug into the nuances like that, that.
That does make a lot ofsense and, and I love it.
Kristen Donnelly (31:02):
I mean, you're busy saving lives.
I am busy like talking topeople at, you know, Wawa, so
Christopher Stockton (31:08):
Right?
Hey, there's nothing wrong with that.
I do the same thing just gettingcoffee or Cokes at Wawa, you know?
Hey, I love it.
So, uh, you, you co-wrotethe Culture of Burnout.
What's the one message from that bookyou wish every EMS chief and hospital
administrator had tattooed on theirdesk or really on their forehead?
Kristen Donnelly (31:28):
man.
It's not your fault.
You're not crazy and it is fixable.
Christopher Stockton (31:39):
Gotcha.
so how do leaders accidentallyfuel burnout without realizing it?
Kristen Donnelly (31:46):
Oh my gosh.
How much more time do we have?
Um,
Christopher Stockton (31:49):
I, I mean, I, that's up to you.
Kristen Donnelly (31:52):
um, no, it's a great question and as a leader myself, it's
something that I think about quite a bit.
I think, you know, there's acouple ways, uh, and these are
just off the top of my head.
They're not, you know,prioritized in any way.
But one major way that I'vereally realized is treating, um,
caregivers who care for children andcaregivers who care for adults or
(32:12):
relatives with different priorities.
Christopher Stockton (32:16):
Okay.
Kristen Donnelly (32:17):
So lots of organizations will be like, oh my God, no problem.
You have to go pick upyour kid from school.
Like, we'll flex your schedule.
But they won't be like, oh my God,your parent is in the hospital.
We'll flex your schedule.
Christopher Stockton (32:26):
Right.
It seems like it's age-based.
I hate to say it, butdiscrimination in the end on that.
Kristen Donnelly (32:31):
In a certain way.
And, and the same thingwith organizations.
We'll look at child free or childlessadults and say, oh, you guys have
so much more time than the kids withchildren, than the guys with children.
Christopher Stockton (32:41):
True.
Kristen Donnelly (32:42):
And sure, I might have more time than my brother.
I don't have children.
He has too.
Um, but I should not be punishedfor my choices with your
like, mismanagement of time.
Um, so like that's athing that I think we do.
I think we also, um, I think we alsotend to know our employees only on,
(33:06):
only as for what they can do for us.
And like there's boundariesand lines here, but.
I really like knowing the namesof my employees kids, and I like
knowing where they go to school.
Um, and I like being able to ask them,you know, questions about certain things.
And so as much as possible they understandthat I know that they're humans.
(33:28):
Um, and my particular role in thecompany, I often know them better as
people than they're specific task for us,just 'cause of the way the structure is.
Um, but that's all intentional and a lotof work, and I'm not really good at it all
the time, but it's something I try to do.
Um, so really anytime we prioritizecorporate or organizational productivity
(33:49):
over personal care of some fashion,I think that's a really big way.
And then we have to behonest that the like.
Just the structure of vacationtime or time off, even the mandated
clocking in and clocking out.
We have to acknowledge that peoplestay in jobs for a lot longer
than they want to 'cause that'show they get health insurance.
(34:10):
There's just so much about the culture ofwork in the US that we can't do anything
about, but because we are in charge ofit in some way, we contribute to, and
so it's even more imperative for us tothink, what can I do to balance that?
And how do I, how do I, asmuch as possible, center the
person over the productivity?
Christopher Stockton (34:30):
I love it.
And then you've said asking questionsmore powerful than giving answers.
What's a question we shouldbegin asking ourselves after a
hard shift or after a hard call?
I.
Kristen Donnelly (34:42):
What was my fault and what wasn't?
Christopher Stockton (34:44):
I love it.
It's easy.
It, and it's easily answerablein the, in your own mind.
Kristen Donnelly (34:49):
Yeah.
Or you can even, I have afriend who's a first responder.
Um, in Dallas, and he startedcarrying a mulkin notebook around
and writing those answers down.
This was a, a tip from oneof his, his other friends.
So I passed this on entirely, um,free of charge, but it works for him.
He's a tangible person.
He needs to be able to read things,so when it's been bad, he writes down
(35:12):
what was his fault and what wasn't.
Um, and just to get it out of his head.
And then once he's, you know, gottena little bit of distance, sometimes
even all he needs to do is shower.
He can then look at what washis fault and see if it was a
one-time thing or a pattern andlike what he needs to do with it.
But that's helped him kind of goldfishthings, um, as much as possible.
(35:34):
Um.
Christopher Stockton (35:34):
I like it.
I, I, I actually do the same thingsometimes and just for everyone out
there, I know you'll probably agreewith me on this as well, Kristen,
is if you need help, you know,reach out to therapist, reach out to
psychologist, you know, social war.
They're all there to be able to helpyou to be able to get through this
burnout and PTSD that we all get.
Um, they can always get,provide tools like that as well,
Kristen Donnelly (35:58):
Yeah.
And remember too, sometimesthis requires medication.
Christopher Stockton (36:03):
right.
Kristen Donnelly (36:04):
A lot of times it doesn't, but sometimes it does.
And that doesn't mean thatyou are bad at burnout.
That just means that the chemicals in yourbrain did a specific thing and that's it.
And we do so little brain researchso little that we're all still
kind of making this up as we goalong in informed ways, I promise.
(36:27):
But the greatest thing about.
Going to a, a therapist, a social worker,or whoever, especially one who's trained,
who is like, you know, particularlypassionate about working with, with
y'all, and they're certainly out there.
Psychology today is, is an easy wayto start finding some people, um, is
that they are there to hold whateveryou need them to hold for an hour, a
(36:50):
week or every month or whatever, andthey have no agenda other than letting
you get everything outta your head.
That is, I would imagine I don't, Imean, I, I'm not a first responder.
We've established this, but I owna business and there are times
that my days are really likecapital N, capital G, not great.
(37:12):
And I can't tell my husband forany number of reasons, and it just
sits in my head and it gets worseand worse and worse and worse.
But if I see my therapist likeright after that bad day, and I get
it all out of my head, everythingfeels more, more attackable.
And so it isn't necessarilythat you have these grand, giant
life patterns that need fixed.
(37:34):
You probably just need a safeperson to, to scream everything
at, and that is a huge part ofemploying that category of person.
Uh.
Christopher Stockton (37:44):
And I agree on that also is, that's one thing that
actually my psychiatrist that I startedseeing myself is he pointed out to
me that you don't talk to someone.
That you don't trust ifthey're a professional.
You have to be able totrust your therapist, your
psychologist, your social workers.
So for everyone out there thinkingthat they can't trust one, there is one
(38:06):
out there that will be able to listento you and you can build trust with.
You just have to find that right person.
Kristen Donnelly (38:14):
Yeah, and it's annoying that it takes a
little bit of jumping for sure.
That's very annoying and it'svulnerable and you don't have time and
like all this kind of other garbage.
But once you find theperson that makes sense.
Um, give it a whirl and,and do what you need to.
I mean, I've, I've been in and outof it for a long time in my life and
I have found for my own particularstressors and ptss and all those
(38:38):
kind of other things, an eminentlyhelpful presence to have someone ask
me questions and make me answer them.
Christopher Stockton (38:44):
Right.
I gotcha.
So if you could re redesign the workplaceculture for first responders from
scratch, what would be non-negotiable?
Kristen Donnelly (38:54):
I don't know, like all the, all the nuances.
I will admit.
I really, I think the first thing thatshould be non-negotiable is, is food
that doesn't come from McDonald's.
That's just my thought.
Um, like maybe vegetables.
I feel like vegetables should bea really big, important thing.
Um, I just hear, I, I just.
Any job that requires you to be ina car all the time, doesn't require,
(39:18):
doesn't allow you to prioritize yourown person and your own body that well.
And so I, I wish for youguys that that would happen.
Um, you know, hydration, suchthings, um, non-negotiable man
outside of vegetables, I think.
Hmm.
I would love it.
(39:39):
I have no idea if this is feasibleat all, but this is fairytale land.
I would love it if a big part of, ofevery kind of review or anything else.
It also includes the areas in whichthat, like there's been growth and
there's good things happening, andthere's really admirable skills
that may or may not be happening.
(40:00):
And then I also think there shouldbe fun like a party every month.
Christopher Stockton (40:04):
That actually could be possible.
Um, I actually worked for a service thatdid something like that and it was great.
Um, privately owned ofcourse, but great company.
I.
Kristen Donnelly (40:14):
Yeah, I mean, potlucks are great.
I think sometimes folks think itneeds to be this like big catered
something like, uh, everybody can go toShopRite and get like a potato salad.
Like it'll be fine.
Just throw, like say this hour is for us.
We, you know, we, the organizationwill buy the, you know, meat.
You guys bring everything else, andwe'll just be together for an hour.
(40:35):
That is even more important to a lot offolks than like, if you do that every
month versus a one-time Christmas party,
Christopher Stockton (40:43):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (40:45):
it's a different, there's not expectations.
There's community instead.
Christopher Stockton (40:50):
And I think that's a big thing is a lot of us
in EMS and Fire is, you know, everytime we go to these events, there's
always sponsorships and donated stuffand it's, it, it just seems like it's
such a money grab for the, for theservices in the end to, to us, you know.
If there was a, a true,Hey, this is just for y'all.
(41:12):
We're not bringing outside people in.
You know, of course still get donationsif possible, but not have the big banners
of, oh look, four donated, you know?
Kristen Donnelly (41:22):
Yeah.
Yeah, that would be veryfrustrating to me too, I think.
I mean, we have 25 folks herein my organization, 28 in the
building, 28 in the building, andevery Thanksgiving is a potluck,
Christopher Stockton (41:34):
That's awesome.
Kristen Donnelly (41:35):
and we always end up with more food
than we even possibly could.
Fathom meeting, um, because everybodybrings what they wanna share.
And the other piece of that for cultureis, especially if you have, I mean,
every single, every single organizationin the world is multicultural.
But if you have a particularly vibrant,multicultural thing, have them bring,
you know, here's a potluck, bringyour favorite dish from childhood.
(41:59):
It doesn't need to make sense.
It doesn't need to go together.
You know, top Chef has taught us allthat like food has to be perfect.
It does not.
It can be like, it honestly can be thepotluck in the church basement in 1984.
It is fine.
And so bring the thing.
People get to learn whatpeople love about food.
There is a real specific kind of communitythat bonds when people eat together.
(42:22):
All of that is possible and it cancost you less than a hundred dollars.
Christopher Stockton (42:26):
Very true.
So for the medic driving home in silenceafter a 24 hour shift for the nurse
scrolling job postings at 2:00 AM justto feel they have a way out, or for
the firefighter who hasn't told anybodyhow heavy it's gotten, what do you want
them to know right now about burnout?
Kristen Donnelly (42:48):
I want you to know that however you need to handle it
right now in this moment is okay.
I want you to know that thereare other ways possible.
It feels permanent, but it's not.
It is manageable in creative waysthat will still give you power
(43:15):
over your own brain and over yourown exhaustion, which I know right
now is what feels so immutable.
You, you just can't wrap.
Your brain around making anythinghappen in a very, very awkward
way and somewhat embarrassing.
I am sure.
(43:35):
So what I hope for you is thatyou can internalize the idea that
you have been told this is who youhave to be, and that's not true.
Christopher Stockton (43:49):
I love it.
that was Dr. Kristen Donnelleyreminding us that burnout isn't
weakness and it isn't our fault.
It's a signal and it's cultural, and theway out starts with questions, not guilt.
So Christian.
If someone wants to find outmore about your research, your
newsletters, or more about you,where could they go to find that out?
Kristen Donnelly (44:09):
My website is Dr. Kristen Speaks all one word and Kristen
is spelled with an EN at the end.
Um, and that will kind of getyou everywhere you need to be.
Christopher Stockton (44:20):
Alright.
And remember, exhaustionisn't failure, it's feedback.
Any final words, Kristen?
I.
Kristen Donnelly (44:26):
No, that's a good one to end on.
Thanks so much for having me.
I hope I helped in some smallway to any of you listening.
Christopher Stockton (44:31):
ma'am.
Outro (44:36):
If you think it's too heavy to say, say it anyway.
It beats a eulogy.
You don't have to apologizefor surviving however you can.
You're not the reason things are heavy.
You're the reason they're still moving.
Need support right now.
Text or call 9 8 8 orvisit 9 8 8 lifeline.org.
You're not alone.
Not in this job, not in this fight.
Wanna share your story or connect?
Visit critical run.com ormessage the Facebook page,
(44:59):
dispatched and dysfunctional.
We're building this for you,for them, for all of us.
9 1 1.
(00:01):
What's your emergency?
The following contentis graphic emotional.
And includes dark humor that maynot be suitable for all listeners.
Discretion is advised.
Explicit content included.
These stories are based on real lifeEMS and first responder experiences.
The calls are real, the providersare real names, and patient details
(00:21):
have been changed to protect privacy.
Episodes may include trauma, suicideabuse, medical emergencies, mental
health struggles, or things yourHR department would definitely not
approve of any advice, opinions,or discussion of medical procedures
are based on personal experience.
And should never override your localprotocols, medical direction or training.
(00:42):
Use your damn brain.
Follow your guidelines andyour local or agency protocols.
Follow your training.
And when in doubt, call med control.
Most importantly, if you'restruggling, don't do it alone.
Talk to someone, a coworker, afriend, a therapist, or help.
Reach out to me.
I'll answer.
Need help right now.
(01:03):
Text or call 9 8 8 orvisit 9 88 lifeline.org.
Christopher Stockton (01:15):
Welcome back to Dispatch, dysfunctional.
Today we're tearing into a topicevery responder knows too well,
burnout and not the Instagram kind.
With candles and yoga mats, the kind thatmakes you stare at the ceiling at 3:00 AM
and wonder if you can keep doing this job.
One more shift.
Our guest is Dr.
Kristen Donnelley, four time Ted.
Speaker, researcher, co-authorof the Culture of Burnout.
(01:37):
She doesn't buy the idea thatburnout is an individual failure.
She says it's cultural, systemic.
If we wanna survive it, we'vegotta stop blaming ourselves and
start asking better questions.
Kristen, welcome to the show.
I framed you as a burnout researcherand speaker, but bios never
catch the full pi full picture.
What would you like to add about yourselfand what's the key message you want
listeners to carry away from this episode?
Kristen Donnelly (02:00):
Oh my gracious.
Well, first of all,thank you for having me.
Um, and thank you everyone in the soundof my voice for the work that you do.
You are never thanked enough.
So I know it's probably cheesyand you're rolling your eyes,
but I want to thank you.
Um, the.
Other thing I would love you for you toknow is that I have been working with
and caring about people my entire life,and I have survived burnout myself, um,
(02:25):
for sure, which is a big part of why I'mso passionate about this conversation.
But more than anything I have seen thatit, it looks so different in so many
different people, and I wanted to createtools that would work for everyone despite
their particular flavor of burnout.
Christopher Stockton (02:41):
I love it.
That makes sense.
Everybody's burnout showsdifferently, appears differently,
and completely presents differently.
Kristen Donnelly (02:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
Christopher Stockton (02:50):
So, Kristen, you said burnout is cultural,
not personal for folks in EMSwho are told just toughen it up.
What do you mean by that?
Kristen Donnelly (02:59):
Uh, well,
I mean, America wants you to toughen up.
Like I think on a very real level,American burnout is, is a different flavor
than some other cultures and countries.
Burnout exists everywhere.
Obviously we hear a lot aboutthe burnout in Japan and, and
South Korea in particular, andin kind of in those spaces.
(03:20):
But we don't really talk aboutburnout in America because we actually
see burnout as a badge of honor.
The reason that we see it that way,and I'm sure you guys see this so
much in your particular profession, isthat way, way, way, way back in the 16
hundreds, the first group of white folksthat showed up and colonized the land
had three core beliefs about society.
(03:43):
One is that you are only a goodperson if you work really hard.
Christopher Stockton (03:48):
Hmm.
Kristen Donnelly (03:48):
Two is that you can only work hard if you do it by yourself.
And three is that restis for when you are dead.
Christopher Stockton (03:56):
Yeah, I hear that a lot lately.
Kristen Donnelly (03:58):
Uh huh And so those three things line up pretty well with
like the version of capitalism thatthrived in the 16 and 17 and 18 hundreds.
And so, you know, every other waveof of immigrants that came saw what
the Puritans did, and they werelike, oh, that's the kind, like,
that's what the American dream is.
Got it.
Okay.
If I want my streets paved withgold, then I need to do this.
(04:22):
And so by the time we get to thecodification of what of America, the
founding documents, all of that wasassumed as part of life in the new world.
we've never poked at it before.
We've never said, are we sure?
We've never said, does this work?
We've never really explored it.
And a lot of that is because we didn'tlet a lot of other people, the, you know,
(04:42):
the cultural structures that we had tosupport society where only certain people
were in the workforce and other peoplewere forced to be in other circumstances.
It kind of supported that world.
And then in the last, you know, 50 ish.
Years.
A little bit longer than that, butdefinitely the last 50 ish years, more and
more people have been like, you know what?
I don't think I need to do this anymore.
(05:02):
Um.
And also that kind ofconversation has shifted with
some generational things as well.
But all that to say, in order to besuccessful in America, and by that we
mean successful in America, means theaccumulation of resources, money, land,
power, whatever you are successful inAmerica, if you do those things, in order
(05:23):
to do those things, you have to burn outor someone else has to on your behalf.
Christopher Stockton (05:28):
Huh.
Never heard it put that way.
And that actually does makea lot of sense that Okay.
Wow.
So I know you said in within the last50 years, why is it within the last 50
years we've been looking at it more?
Is that just a research perspective ora medical perspective, or are we just
able to focus more on it now because ofus being able to see the vast majority
(05:52):
of burnout and PTSD and and responders.
Kristen Donnelly (05:56):
You know, I'll be honest, I think it's
a yes to all of those factors.
I don't.
You know, I don't go superdeep into the medical research.
I read what I need to, to understand.
I'm a sociologist.
Um, my doc, that's what my doctorateis in, um, is in sociology and I
have experience in social work, um,and, uh, cross-cultural anthropology
and adolescent development as well.
(06:17):
So that's kind of my bucket.
Um, but honestly, one of thethings that really triggered it
was women being allowed to workoutside the home in larger numbers.
And that once that began to happen, whichthat really began to happen with the
invention of the birth control pill, oncethat began to happen and women began to
realize that, yes, they left the home, butthen they came home and they were expected
(06:39):
to do the same amount of work, thenbefore they got outside the house jobs.
So a lot of women began to justwork all the time, two jobs.
And so then if you had to take asecond paid job, you're working
three to four jobs at one time.
That started to kind of exposethe lie of our society that any,
(07:00):
any of those myths, I said at thebeginning that, you know, you're
only a good person if you work hard.
Like all these kind of otherthings aren't necessarily true.
Um.
That, especially the alone thing.
America is one of the most individualisticco countries on the planet.
We have these myths of self-made people.
I'm using air quotes'cause those don't exist.
(07:22):
Like Elon Musk is not self-made.
Steve Jobs is not self-made.
Like they're just not.
They needed a whole lot of, if theyneed a whole lot of people, if nothing
else, their mothers gave birth to themand therefore they needed their mothers.
But like they need peopleto do what they did.
They're just the solo front men.
That doesn't mean thatthey've done it all alone.
They just want you to believethat because then you can't
(07:43):
achieve what they've achieved.
But you guys, in your profession, youknow, you can't do anything by yourself.
There has to be partnerships, therehas to be, you know, stuff together,
um, or stuff gets a little dicey.
And unfortunately, a lot of the rest of usin our jobs have not translated that into
foundational things of our profession.
And so in the last.
(08:04):
I mean really as more and morepeople began to question, oh my gosh.
So in Europe they get six weeks vacationand, and those countries still function.
Why do I get five days?
Christopher Stockton (08:15):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (08:17):
And we start to have people travel a lot more.
We start to have multinationalcorporations, then we start to have
millennials coming into power whospent, who did study abroads in college.
They met people in differentcultures, in different countries,
and all of a sudden you juststart to get a lot more questions.
Christopher Stockton (08:33):
Yeah, I've actually worked with a bunch of Europeans and it,
it's very interesting to see the vast.
Differences in our cultures.
Um, even though most of us do haveEuropean descents, the way that
Europe operates and treats theirpeople is completely different
(08:54):
than us here in the States.
Kristen Donnelly (08:56):
Absolutely.
And I lived in Northern Irelandfor a, a bunch of years and
that's where my husband is from.
So he and I talk a lot.
He's worked in the US beforetoo, so he has a, a, a specific
perspective that's always helpful.
But one of the things we always say isthat Northern Ireland, so therefore.
Most of the, the rest of the UK and,and the Republic of Ireland as well,
(09:17):
um, kind of across, over generalization,but their cultural priority is
family or, you know, something else.
Our cultural priority isAmericans is productivity.
Christopher Stockton (09:29):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (09:31):
And so the minute that you value productivity over personhood.
You are going to get theproblems we face now.
And you know, the WHO identifiedburnout as a problem a while ago,
but they also said it only exists inworkplaces, which I find to be crap.
And so does my, you know, my researchpartner and, and, um, Aaron, who I
(09:54):
wrote the book with, there's just noway burnout, burnout occurs anywhere.
That you are expected to bring yourtime, talents, and expertise, and
you are not given adequate timeto take a break from that space.
So for anyone listening, workmight not be burning you out.
You might be thriving atwork, but home is killing you.
That doesn't mean you aren't burned out.
Christopher Stockton (10:16):
Hmm.
I never thought of it that way.
So that, that brings meto this question here.
So what's one story or pattern you'veseen that proves burnout isn't about
weakness, but about systems failing us?
Kristen Donnelly (10:29):
Oh my gosh.
Oh, so first of all, you should alwaysknow that I just don't think that weakness
is this terrible, terrible weaknessmeans taking a break sometimes and
letting other people carry the thing.
Um, it doesn't mean failure or giving up.
That's just not how I see it.
So with that caveat.
(10:49):
I would say that, I'll sharea personal one actually.
So a couple years ago, I think it waslike fall of 22, fall of 22, I had
been going, you know, quote unquote,probably nonstop since the fall of 2015.
I had been traveling, I had been, um.
Helping.
(11:10):
You know, my, I'm partof a family business.
I'm the co-owner of a network ofcompanies that my father started.
And at that point in time for,you know, a little while, we
had one in North Carolina.
I spent a lot of timeoutside of Philadelphia.
I barely saw my husbandexcept over text message.
Um.
But like I would have told you, Imean, lockdown honestly, like was
the time that we've seen each otherthe most in the last 10 years.
(11:32):
Um, but I would've toldyou that I was fine.
I was totally fine.
Yeah.
I was tired and I felt overwhelmed and,and like, you know, me, I would stumble
a lot over my words, but I was fine.
And then in the kind of beginningof December, I woke up coughing so
hard that my body was jackknifing.
Christopher Stockton (11:52):
Oh wow,
Kristen Donnelly (11:53):
And, uh, went to the doctor and he diagnosed
me with double walking pneumonia
Christopher Stockton (11:59):
fun.
Kristen Donnelly (12:00):
and put me on my sofa and said, I do not have children.
And so he was very clear.
If I had children, I would'vegone to the hospital.
Um, because I was not in a place tocare for anything else besides myself.
And caring for myselfmeant sitting on my sofa.
And that as a, you know, hypomanicworkaholic, that was a death sentence.
I could not fathom it.
(12:22):
Um, and I was so overwhelmed.
I think I took like two daysmentally to like sleep or like
watch reality TV or something.
And then I was messaging my team andtalking to my, my dad and my brother.
And I'm like, okay, gimme work to do.
And they're like, you havedouble walking pneumonia.
What are you talking about?
Christopher Stockton (12:38):
You need to take
Kristen Donnelly (12:39):
And I'm like, well, I don't, like, I
don't wanna let anybody down.
And they're like, if youdie, you'll let us down more.
Christopher Stockton (12:45):
That's very true.
You can't take care ofanybody when you're dead.
Kristen Donnelly (12:48):
Nope.
Can't help anybody.
So I felt like I had done somethingterribly wrong by not being available.
But what was true is that my bodyfinally got through to me and my body
finally said, no, no, we're done now.
This has been a while.
You need to stop, and because youare not capable of making that
(13:09):
decision, we will make it for you.
Christopher Stockton (13:12):
Hm.
Kristen Donnelly (13:13):
And so on the back end of that, I had, you know,
that triggered some, some biggermental health questions I needed
to answer and I needed to address.
Um, I sat on my sofa for six weeks.
It is the longest I have not worked,I honestly think since kindergarten.
Um, I started working for my dadwhen I was nine in the summers.
(13:34):
Um, so even a little bitearlier, I think probably eight.
So like it's been work has been a hugepart of my life and I would've said that
stopping was weakness for a lot of it.
And now the more I studied thestress cycle, the more I studied
the physiology of our bodies, themore I realize that individualism is
a cancer that's killing all of us.
The more I am both sociologically andemotionally convinced that capitalism
(13:59):
has packaged stopping as weaknessbecause they can't make money off of it.
Christopher Stockton (14:05):
I never heard it put that way.
That makes a lot of sense.
I I like that one.
So why do many high performers feel likeit's their fault when they hit the wall?
Kristen Donnelly (14:15):
Because we're told from a very early age that
we have control over our future.
We can be whatever we want to be.
We can do it all.
We can, I mean, pick a thing.
Like pick.
And so subconsciously that sinksinto our brains as believing.
Therefore, if we don't do all thethings we want to do, if we don't
(14:39):
accomplish our whole to-do list, if wedon't conquer the world, if we're not
on times 40, under 40, we have failed.
Christopher Stockton (14:47):
Yes, ma'am.
I like it.
And then so you've writtenabout curiosity as an antidote.
How can asking more questionsactually help fight the burnout?
Kristen Donnelly (14:57):
In so many ways.
So first of all, we need, I will say thatI deeply believe that curiosity is the
most important thing a leader can have.
Full stop.
Christopher Stockton (15:09):
Okay.
Kristen Donnelly (15:10):
And you guys see this in your profession too.
You have to be curious aboutwhatever is happening at the scene.
You have to be curious about what'sever happening with a patient.
You have to be curious, but as is oftenthe case for any profession, my guess
is that a lot of you don't take thatcuriosity to other places in your life.
Christopher Stockton: A lot of the times, no. (15:26):
undefined
I think some of us, myself,I know for a fact, uh.
I don't like asking a lot ofquestions when I'm off of work
because it seems to draw me backto work, if that makes any sense.
Kristen Donnelly (15:40):
Completely valid.
I mean, I, I teach, you know, empathy andburnout, prevention and leadership and
all these kind of things, and then I'llgo home at night and snap at my husband
constantly, and I just spent eight hourstelling other people not to do that.
This is very, very normal.
Christopher Stockton (15:56):
Right.
And I think it's just.
As you were saying earlier is thecapitalism in America, and you know,
the jobs we have is we get so absorbedin our, our own lives and our work
that we have no choice but to take ithome with us and the PTSD, the burnout.
It, it, it creates such a stressmentally and physically that we don't
(16:19):
have any other way to let it out otherthan our close ones that are as close
to us as possible and we trust because.
That's just how we are was thecloser someone is to you, the
more you take it out on them.
Kristen Donnelly (16:33):
Well, think about it this way.
Back in the days of your, when we werehunters and gatherers, you would, you
know, the, the hunters would go out andtry to get food for everybody else, and
they would encounter a bear, let's say,and the bear was not going to be hunted.
The bear was going to eat them.
So their physiological response wasto get the, was to get out of there.
Christopher Stockton (16:51):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (16:52):
Run as fast as you can, get back to the place where you
are safe, where your body will let goof all of the, that, those chemicals,
those stress chemicals, and exhale.
The problem right now is thatour chemicals have not updated
and so any stress event is.
(17:15):
Is generally seen as a bear coming at you.
So stress events in y'all's jobs,but also stress events in your life.
Your body produces the same amountof chemicals, and so the minute
you can get somewhere you aresafe, the chemicals will calm down.
Here's the problem, when you've beenin burnout for a long time, some of
(17:36):
you may have been in it for years,some of you may go in and out of it.
Some of you don't know whatwe're talking about, all of that.
What will happen is that you actuallydon't have the emotional capacity,
the deeper you are in burnout to likehuman again, if that makes sense.
So everything is still a crisis.
(17:56):
You're still in fight or flight mode.
Even though you're safe andyour hormones have calmed down,
your body is so intense on.
Like all of it, the PTSD, the, you know,anything else you want to chunk into that.
There's not space to human,
but you're safe, right?
You're with the people that you love.
(18:17):
Unfortunately, it's like this double-edgedsword where like, you're safe now,
but because you aren't, your bodydoesn't actually think you're safe.
It's not fully safe.
It hasn't fully calmed down.
These consequences kind of come out.
And so when we talkabout burnout prevention.
We, we talk about these practicesthat we like to introduce to
increase your emotional capacity.
You're not a bad person that you snappedat your wife, you're exhausted, and
(18:40):
that exhaustion is not your fault.
However, it, it is your responsibilityand there are things you can do about it.
And I think that.
We have conflated for a long time,responsibility and fault, and that
has frozen a lot of us in figuringout what to do about burnout.
'cause the minute someone tells you,well, if you haven't, you know, saw,
oh, like, oh my gosh, do four yogaroutines a week and take a bubble bath
(19:03):
and go on vacation and you'll be fine.
And then you do all of thosethings and you come back and
you're like, I'm not fine.
You immediately assume thatsomething's wrong with you.
Christopher Stockton (19:12):
And it, it's funny you just said that 'cause
that's actually my next questionis, you've joked that bubble bass
and yoga treats don't fix burnout.
Why not?
Kristen Donnelly (19:19):
Because they don't work for everybody, man.
Like that's the thing.
So my best friend who I work with, Erin,who, and I wrote the book, she loves yoga.
Like she really does.
And we joke about this all the time.
She loves yoga, it works for her.
I went about three times, hated it.
Um, just absolutely hated it.
And so every time I would go to anyof these things and hear like, well,
(19:41):
yoga is really what'll cure burnout, Iwould just sit there and be like, well,
guess that's never happening for me.
Great.
Um, and I'd go on Instagram and itwould be like, well buy this set
of candles for three installmentsof 1995 and if you meditate and
all these kind of other things.
And I, like, I grew up in the church andso there was a lot of things when I was
growing up in the, you know, nineties,it was like, well, you should pray for
(20:03):
X number of hours a day or X number ofminutes a day, or X number, whatever.
And that's just meditation to me now.
So people that are likemeditate for X number of days,
I'm like, hi, I have bipolar.
We don't want me insilence alone with my head.
That's not.
What's gonna work here, so wegotta figure out something else.
Uh, and I don't like bubble bathsand I have chronic pain and so like
(20:24):
being in one position isn't great.
So Erin and I went down this whole list oflike everything we'd ever been recommended
we're both in our early forties.
I started going to women's conferences atlike 10 11 and hearing about preventing
burnout then, 'cause I was at ministryconferences again, grew up in the church.
Um.
And so, and burnout is massivein professional church life.
Utterly massive.
(20:46):
Um, yeah, it's, um, it, it's.
Whole theories as to why that is.
Um, but at the same, it's, it'sa similar level to education,
uh, like professional education.
So for a lot of the same reasons.
But all that to say, I've beenbeing told for years that here
are the things that will solve it.
Well, here's the issue.
And one of the big things that peoplekept saying was, just get enough sleep.
(21:08):
And I was like, okay.
I would, I would love to do that.
Could you tell me how like.
How, and they're like,well just get more sleep.
And I'm like, you are entirely unhelpful.
Like, what?
What is this?
So we, so we started digging in andwhat it really comes down to is that
whatever works for you when it worksis great, but no one has the right
(21:29):
to say what works for other people.
And if somebody stands before youand says, here, take my course.
You know, take this supplement, join thisrunning club, it will cure your burnout.
They are selling you something,
Christopher Stockton (21:45):
And most of the time it's snake oil.
Kristen Donnelly (21:47):
and most of the time it's snake oil.
Now again, if that snake oilworks for you, rock on, but
if it doesn't work for you.
Please give yourself grace.
Assume that remember that life iswritten in pencil and try something else.
Because the curiosity to kind oftry this back, I totally respect not
wanting to ask questions at home.
Like why?
Why would you guys, and the questionsyou ask during the day are life or death.
(22:09):
So why are you asking like, what arewe having for dinner when you get home?
Like that's a different scale.
But the curiosity I wouldencourage you to start with is
the curiosity of your own self.
So when you snap at somebody,when you are somebody you
don't like very much, ask why.
And if the first thought is,well, just my job is hard.
Okay, no, no, no, no.
What about today was hard?
(22:33):
Is what was hard today,systemic or momentary.
If it's systemic, isthere another solution?
Is there a support structure?
Do I need to talk to somebody?
The more curious you can getwith yourself, the more of
that capacity that you'll have.
And then we build in these kind ofother solutions around it that I'm
sure I'll talk about in a minute.
And that capacity gets, gets a lot biggerin order to create health for you and
(22:55):
everyone that you love and care about.
Christopher Stockton: That actually answered. (22:57):
undefined
My next question I was gonna ask is what'sone practical step people can take that's
more effective than self-care hacks?
But you pretty muchjust answered that one.
Kristen Donnelly (23:07):
Well, I mean, I've got some others too.
If people aren't in a place to dothat, if you're not in a place to
do that, there's even smaller ones.
'cause that's hard work.
Being curious with yourself is hard work.
Being, being all of that is hard work.
So we have four categories that we sayyou need to mind and build practices.
Around that will help do it kind ofthe four pillars of burnout prevention.
(23:29):
And the first one is rest.
And I can only imagine thaty'all's is totally screwed up.
Christopher Stockton (23:34):
at all.
Kristen Donnelly (23:35):
like totally screwed up.
So I don't know what those, what thosekind of tips or solutions or, or anything
for y'all's profession would look like.
So I'm not going to.
I'm not going to presume, I, I am justgoing to say like, we know physiologically
that in order to perform at our leaststressed point, we do need to sleep.
So that has to happen insome way, shape, or form.
(23:56):
Um, but while you're workingon that, there's some others.
One is, is rejuvenation.
We have to do things that make ushappy on a routine and regular basis.
They can be big things.
Like I really, I reallylove going to Disney.
Um, and I really love going, I reallylove Taylor Swift and, uh, I really
(24:18):
love sports and I go to as much livehockey and baseball as I possibly can,
and those are big things that make mehappy, but so is like this one brand
of coffee that I make sure I have.
In my K-Cup every morning, and like Joyis not a negotiable entity of human life.
It's not the forgotten thingthat we just let kids do.
(24:38):
It's joy is an animating featureof human life and we have
to, we have to prioritize it.
Christopher Stockton (24:43):
I think Joy
Kristen Donnelly (24:44):
then the next one.
Christopher Stockton (24:45):
not to interrupt you, but I, I think joy is honestly
something that a lot of peopleoverlook and is necessary in our lives.
'cause without joy it wouldbe nothing but depression.
Kristen Donnelly (24:55):
Absolutely.
And I, you know, we look at allof the, you know, movies of the
eighties where like they peoplewere working until like eight.
You know, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 atnight in offices and it's all
drudgery and everything else.
And then they find like the joy withinthem, you know, like, you know, the movie
hook, like Robin Williams learns how tobe Peter Pan again 'cause he has fun.
And we just take those movies and thenwe say, oh, that doesn't apply to me.
(25:18):
But like, no, it, it does, it really does.
And there's lots of research on cortisollevels and happiness and all this kinda
other stuff, but just like colloquially,people that have fun with life.
Amidst the hard work amidst theeverything else amidst life, but
they also prioritize fun, are morefun for all of us to be around.
And it just kind of likefun, begets fun, begets fun,
Christopher Stockton (25:38):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (25:39):
um, and also fun is not productive.
Fun is just fun.
Christopher Stockton (25:45):
Again,
Kristen Donnelly (25:45):
And so if you can.
Take time away to cultivate joy.
That's, that's not a productivefeature that, that is like within
the realm of your profession.
Um, and so then the third I, we callit realignment and we just really
want you to remember who you arein the universe and that you are
important, but you aren't imperative,like you're allowed to take naps.
(26:06):
And you're allowed to take breaks becausethe tides will come in without you.
And that sounds really, really basic andkind of laughable, but it is actually
often something any high achiever forgets.
And it, you know, thatthat's a major thing.
And so if, if you, somebody hasa. Dedicated spiritual practice.
This is where we say to do that, torealign with your spiritual practice.
(26:28):
If you don't have one, comeup with a practice that
reminds you how small you are.
And not in a bad way, butjust in a realistic way.
Uh, and then the final one isreconnection, which is find your people
and spend intentional time with them.
This is not proximity with strangers.
This is not being, youknow, like this is not that.
This is, here are my handful of peoplewho know me when I have forgotten
(26:52):
who I am and here is how I willmake sure I spend time with them.
And the more you can cultivatepractices around those four pillars,
rest, rejuvenation, realignment,and reconnection, the the, the
more you can prevent burnout.
'cause here's the other thing,the other secret, you're never,
ever permanently out of it, ever.
(27:13):
In, in professional life in America,we're all gonna dip in and out of, of
being threatened by it all the time.
It's not a linear thing.
Life changes, things happen.
Parents get sick, kids getsick, all of that kind of stuff.
So the more you can build thosepractices and the more you can sure
yourself up again against the thingthat will most likely happen again.
Christopher Stockton (27:35):
I gotcha.
So you've worked across generations.
What does Gen Z call out differentlythan, say, boomers for burnout?
Kristen Donnelly (27:45):
They deeply believe that like as a generation right now,
pattern wise, that their time is theirsand so they will give you the time they're
on shifts or whatever, but outside ofthat, that time does not belong to you.
Older generations didn'tview it that way necessarily.
(28:09):
Um, now d differentprofessions are different.
I, you know, from the research I've readon y'all's, that's not a universal issue
that you face, unlike some other spaces.
Um, but that's a really big one.
There's a lot around,um, you know, protecting.
Protecting peace in a way, liketheir way to kind of mitigate
(28:31):
burnout is often getting rid of thestressful people in their lives.
And they're also, from my perspectiveat the moment, assuming things about
burnout that are not necessarilytrue, including that like physical
activity is the main way to prevent it.
(28:53):
Um, and that that's.
That's a little bit of adifference that I hope evolves.
I also would love to know if that, thatI would love to learn that my research in
that has holes in it, if that makes sense.
Christopher Stockton (29:06):
It does.
It does it.
So in healthcare and EMS, youknow, we always hear the suck
it up is practically the policy.
So how do we start rewriting that screw?
And making it better.
Kristen Donnelly (29:18):
It's a great question and it's gonna, I think,
I think require relationships.
So we all know that there are peoplethat never suck it up and are very gentle
with themselves and walk away easily,and all those kind of other things.
They need to be encouraged to be committedversus other people that will tell you
(29:39):
they're fine with, you know, half theirhead falling off and they need to be
encouraged to remember that you're inthis profession for a long time, not,
not a short time, and the constantconversation of that all of this is a
marathon and we all feel this urgency,that it's a sprint and it's simply not.
It's a marathon that is flexible andchangeable and we can make it work.
(30:02):
And so it's a lot of conversations aroundwhat does hard work really mean for you?
What do these hours mean?
What does this work mean?
What is important to you in your job?
How do I make sure that you get that?
That happening, and you don't takeon everybody else's important thing.
So it's a lot.
Again, curiosity about your folks.
(30:23):
Curiosity about yourself,figuring out what your values are.
You know, most first respondersI've talked to, I ask them
why they're in the job.
The first answer is, I wanna help peopleand I dig deeper and there's nuances.
To it, you know, I really wannamake sure my neighborhood is safer.
I really wanna make sure that, um,the schools are really cared about.
I wanna make sure thatthere's less gun violence.
(30:43):
Like there's, there's nuancesonce you dig, and if we can dig
to those nuances and create plansaround those nuances, that might
be a really good place to start.
Christopher Stockton (30:52):
Okay, that, that, I've never heard it put that way,
and that actually, I never actuallydug into the nuances like that, that.
That does make a lot ofsense and, and I love it.
Kristen Donnelly (31:02):
I mean, you're busy saving lives.
I am busy like talking topeople at, you know, Wawa, so
Christopher Stockton (31:08):
Right?
Hey, there's nothing wrong with that.
I do the same thing just gettingcoffee or Cokes at Wawa, you know?
Hey, I love it.
So, uh, you, you co-wrotethe Culture of Burnout.
What's the one message from that bookyou wish every EMS chief and hospital
administrator had tattooed on theirdesk or really on their forehead?
Kristen Donnelly (31:28):
man.
It's not your fault.
You're not crazy and it is fixable.
Christopher Stockton (31:39):
Gotcha.
so how do leaders accidentallyfuel burnout without realizing it?
Kristen Donnelly (31:46):
Oh my gosh.
How much more time do we have?
Um,
Christopher Stockton (31:49):
I, I mean, I, that's up to you.
Kristen Donnelly (31:52):
um, no, it's a great question and as a leader myself, it's
something that I think about quite a bit.
I think, you know, there's acouple ways, uh, and these are
just off the top of my head.
They're not, you know,prioritized in any way.
But one major way that I'vereally realized is treating, um,
caregivers who care for children andcaregivers who care for adults or
(32:12):
relatives with different priorities.
Christopher Stockton (32:16):
Okay.
Kristen Donnelly (32:17):
So lots of organizations will be like, oh my God, no problem.
You have to go pick upyour kid from school.
Like, we'll flex your schedule.
But they won't be like, oh my God,your parent is in the hospital.
We'll flex your schedule.
Christopher Stockton (32:26):
Right.
It seems like it's age-based.
I hate to say it, butdiscrimination in the end on that.
Kristen Donnelly (32:31):
In a certain way.
And, and the same thingwith organizations.
We'll look at child free or childlessadults and say, oh, you guys have
so much more time than the kids withchildren, than the guys with children.
Christopher Stockton (32:41):
True.
Kristen Donnelly (32:42):
And sure, I might have more time than my brother.
I don't have children.
He has too.
Um, but I should not be punishedfor my choices with your
like, mismanagement of time.
Um, so like that's athing that I think we do.
I think we also, um, I think we alsotend to know our employees only on,
(33:06):
only as for what they can do for us.
And like there's boundariesand lines here, but.
I really like knowing the namesof my employees kids, and I like
knowing where they go to school.
Um, and I like being able to ask them,you know, questions about certain things.
And so as much as possible they understandthat I know that they're humans.
(33:28):
Um, and my particular role in thecompany, I often know them better as
people than they're specific task for us,just 'cause of the way the structure is.
Um, but that's all intentional and a lotof work, and I'm not really good at it all
the time, but it's something I try to do.
Um, so really anytime we prioritizecorporate or organizational productivity
(33:49):
over personal care of some fashion,I think that's a really big way.
And then we have to behonest that the like.
Just the structure of vacationtime or time off, even the mandated
clocking in and clocking out.
We have to acknowledge that peoplestay in jobs for a lot longer
than they want to 'cause that'show they get health insurance.
(34:10):
There's just so much about the culture ofwork in the US that we can't do anything
about, but because we are in charge ofit in some way, we contribute to, and
so it's even more imperative for us tothink, what can I do to balance that?
And how do I, how do I, asmuch as possible, center the
person over the productivity?
Christopher Stockton (34:30):
I love it.
And then you've said asking questionsmore powerful than giving answers.
What's a question we shouldbegin asking ourselves after a
hard shift or after a hard call?
I.
Kristen Donnelly (34:42):
What was my fault and what wasn't?
Christopher Stockton (34:44):
I love it.
It's easy.
It, and it's easily answerablein the, in your own mind.
Kristen Donnelly (34:49):
Yeah.
Or you can even, I have afriend who's a first responder.
Um, in Dallas, and he startedcarrying a mulkin notebook around
and writing those answers down.
This was a, a tip from oneof his, his other friends.
So I passed this on entirely, um,free of charge, but it works for him.
He's a tangible person.
He needs to be able to read things,so when it's been bad, he writes down
(35:12):
what was his fault and what wasn't.
Um, and just to get it out of his head.
And then once he's, you know, gottena little bit of distance, sometimes
even all he needs to do is shower.
He can then look at what washis fault and see if it was a
one-time thing or a pattern andlike what he needs to do with it.
But that's helped him kind of goldfishthings, um, as much as possible.
(35:34):
Um.
Christopher Stockton (35:34):
I like it.
I, I, I actually do the same thingsometimes and just for everyone out
there, I know you'll probably agreewith me on this as well, Kristen,
is if you need help, you know,reach out to therapist, reach out to
psychologist, you know, social war.
They're all there to be able to helpyou to be able to get through this
burnout and PTSD that we all get.
Um, they can always get,provide tools like that as well,
Kristen Donnelly (35:58):
Yeah.
And remember too, sometimesthis requires medication.
Christopher Stockton (36:03):
right.
Kristen Donnelly (36:04):
A lot of times it doesn't, but sometimes it does.
And that doesn't mean thatyou are bad at burnout.
That just means that the chemicals in yourbrain did a specific thing and that's it.
And we do so little brain researchso little that we're all still
kind of making this up as we goalong in informed ways, I promise.
(36:27):
But the greatest thing about.
Going to a, a therapist, a social worker,or whoever, especially one who's trained,
who is like, you know, particularlypassionate about working with, with
y'all, and they're certainly out there.
Psychology today is, is an easy wayto start finding some people, um, is
that they are there to hold whateveryou need them to hold for an hour, a
(36:50):
week or every month or whatever, andthey have no agenda other than letting
you get everything outta your head.
That is, I would imagine I don't, Imean, I, I'm not a first responder.
We've established this, but I owna business and there are times
that my days are really likecapital N, capital G, not great.
(37:12):
And I can't tell my husband forany number of reasons, and it just
sits in my head and it gets worseand worse and worse and worse.
But if I see my therapist likeright after that bad day, and I get
it all out of my head, everythingfeels more, more attackable.
And so it isn't necessarilythat you have these grand, giant
life patterns that need fixed.
(37:34):
You probably just need a safeperson to, to scream everything
at, and that is a huge part ofemploying that category of person.
Uh.
Christopher Stockton (37:44):
And I agree on that also is, that's one thing that
actually my psychiatrist that I startedseeing myself is he pointed out to
me that you don't talk to someone.
That you don't trust ifthey're a professional.
You have to be able totrust your therapist, your
psychologist, your social workers.
So for everyone out there thinkingthat they can't trust one, there is one
(38:06):
out there that will be able to listento you and you can build trust with.
You just have to find that right person.
Kristen Donnelly (38:14):
Yeah, and it's annoying that it takes a
little bit of jumping for sure.
That's very annoying and it'svulnerable and you don't have time and
like all this kind of other garbage.
But once you find theperson that makes sense.
Um, give it a whirl and,and do what you need to.
I mean, I've, I've been in and outof it for a long time in my life and
I have found for my own particularstressors and ptss and all those
(38:38):
kind of other things, an eminentlyhelpful presence to have someone ask
me questions and make me answer them.
Christopher Stockton (38:44):
Right.
I gotcha.
So if you could re redesign the workplaceculture for first responders from
scratch, what would be non-negotiable?
Kristen Donnelly (38:54):
I don't know, like all the, all the nuances.
I will admit.
I really, I think the first thing thatshould be non-negotiable is, is food
that doesn't come from McDonald's.
That's just my thought.
Um, like maybe vegetables.
I feel like vegetables should bea really big, important thing.
Um, I just hear, I, I just.
Any job that requires you to be ina car all the time, doesn't require,
(39:18):
doesn't allow you to prioritize yourown person and your own body that well.
And so I, I wish for youguys that that would happen.
Um, you know, hydration, suchthings, um, non-negotiable man
outside of vegetables, I think.
Hmm.
I would love it.
(39:39):
I have no idea if this is feasibleat all, but this is fairytale land.
I would love it if a big part of, ofevery kind of review or anything else.
It also includes the areas in whichthat, like there's been growth and
there's good things happening, andthere's really admirable skills
that may or may not be happening.
(40:00):
And then I also think there shouldbe fun like a party every month.
Christopher Stockton (40:04):
That actually could be possible.
Um, I actually worked for a service thatdid something like that and it was great.
Um, privately owned ofcourse, but great company.
I.
Kristen Donnelly (40:14):
Yeah, I mean, potlucks are great.
I think sometimes folks think itneeds to be this like big catered
something like, uh, everybody can go toShopRite and get like a potato salad.
Like it'll be fine.
Just throw, like say this hour is for us.
We, you know, we, the organizationwill buy the, you know, meat.
You guys bring everything else, andwe'll just be together for an hour.
(40:35):
That is even more important to a lot offolks than like, if you do that every
month versus a one-time Christmas party,
Christopher Stockton (40:43):
Right.
Kristen Donnelly (40:45):
it's a different, there's not expectations.
There's community instead.
Christopher Stockton (40:50):
And I think that's a big thing is a lot of us
in EMS and Fire is, you know, everytime we go to these events, there's
always sponsorships and donated stuffand it's, it, it just seems like it's
such a money grab for the, for theservices in the end to, to us, you know.
If there was a, a true,Hey, this is just for y'all.
(41:12):
We're not bringing outside people in.
You know, of course still get donationsif possible, but not have the big banners
of, oh look, four donated, you know?
Kristen Donnelly (41:22):
Yeah.
Yeah, that would be veryfrustrating to me too, I think.
I mean, we have 25 folks herein my organization, 28 in the
building, 28 in the building, andevery Thanksgiving is a potluck,
Christopher Stockton (41:34):
That's awesome.
Kristen Donnelly (41:35):
and we always end up with more food
than we even possibly could.
Fathom meeting, um, because everybodybrings what they wanna share.
And the other piece of that for cultureis, especially if you have, I mean,
every single, every single organizationin the world is multicultural.
But if you have a particularly vibrant,multicultural thing, have them bring,
you know, here's a potluck, bringyour favorite dish from childhood.
(41:59):
It doesn't need to make sense.
It doesn't need to go together.
You know, top Chef has taught us allthat like food has to be perfect.
It does not.
It can be like, it honestly can be thepotluck in the church basement in 1984.
It is fine.
And so bring the thing.
People get to learn whatpeople love about food.
There is a real specific kind of communitythat bonds when people eat together.
(42:22):
All of that is possible and it cancost you less than a hundred dollars.
Christopher Stockton (42:26):
Very true.
So for the medic driving home in silenceafter a 24 hour shift for the nurse
scrolling job postings at 2:00 AM justto feel they have a way out, or for
the firefighter who hasn't told anybodyhow heavy it's gotten, what do you want
them to know right now about burnout?
Kristen Donnelly (42:48):
I want you to know that however you need to handle it
right now in this moment is okay.
I want you to know that thereare other ways possible.
It feels permanent, but it's not.
It is manageable in creative waysthat will still give you power
(43:15):
over your own brain and over yourown exhaustion, which I know right
now is what feels so immutable.
You, you just can't wrap.
Your brain around making anythinghappen in a very, very awkward
way and somewhat embarrassing.
I am sure.
(43:35):
So what I hope for you is thatyou can internalize the idea that
you have been told this is who youhave to be, and that's not true.
Christopher Stockton (43:49):
I love it.
that was Dr. Kristen Donnelleyreminding us that burnout isn't
weakness and it isn't our fault.
It's a signal and it's cultural, and theway out starts with questions, not guilt.
So Christian.
If someone wants to find outmore about your research, your
newsletters, or more about you,where could they go to find that out?
Kristen Donnelly (44:09):
My website is Dr. Kristen Speaks all one word and Kristen
is spelled with an EN at the end.
Um, and that will kind of getyou everywhere you need to be.
Christopher Stockton (44:20):
Alright.
And remember, exhaustionisn't failure, it's feedback.
Any final words, Kristen?
I.
Kristen Donnelly (44:26):
No, that's a good one to end on.
Thanks so much for having me.
I hope I helped in some smallway to any of you listening.
Christopher Stockton (44:31):
ma'am.
Outro (44:36):
If you think it's too heavy to say, say it anyway.
It beats a eulogy.
You don't have to apologizefor surviving however you can.
You're not the reason things are heavy.
You're the reason they're still moving.
Need support right now.
Text or call 9 8 8 orvisit 9 8 8 lifeline.org.
You're not alone.
Not in this job, not in this fight.
Wanna share your story or connect?
Visit critical run.com ormessage the Facebook page,
(44:59):
dispatched and dysfunctional.
We're building this for you,for them, for all of us.
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