In this episode of Experts Uncut, we delve deep into the art of negotiation with Scott Walker, a former Scotland Yard detective and kidnap for ransom negotiator. Scott shares his wealth of experience from over 16 years in counterterrorism and hostage negotiations, now channeled into helping businesses and individuals navigate high-stakes negotiations and resolve conflicts.
Scott discusses the importance of preparation, the psychological dynamics at play during negotiations, and practical techniques to manage stress and improve outcomes. He also introduces concepts like the "bunch of fives" for anticipating challenges and the "immediate action drill" for maintaining composure under pressure.
Whether you're negotiating a business deal or navigating personal conflicts, Scott's insights offer valuable lessons on how to turn chaos into order. Tune in to learn from a true expert in the field of negotiation and crisis management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Preparation is key. And so we would do that on a kidnapping case.
And everyone would sit down and work out what are they likely to do.
Silence, exaggerating. In a business context, it could be that you think the
other side think they're getting ripped off here, or it's not necessarily the
best deal, or there's some flaws in your argument.
And if you can identify these ahead of time and get them out on the table,
because they're going to be there, even if it's subconscious and it's a proverbial
(00:21):
elephant in the corner of the room, you've got to face it. You've got to face
these challenges ahead.
And then they no longer have that control over you. And then the conversation,
the negotiation can flow a lot easier.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the next recording of Experts Uncut. I'm very excited today.
We're kind of delving back into chatting with experts in negotiations.
(00:45):
I have with me Scott Walker from the UK. Thanks for coming on,
Scott. You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
So Scott's almost the, for those of you in the negotiation field,
likely a name you may have seen scott's book order
out of chaos just came out in the us although it's
already a sunday times i think bestseller in the uk yeah
so grab yourself a coffee copy i was very lucky to
(01:07):
be able to order and have it received yesterday on the first day of release
in the us but unfortunately didn't get through to the uh to the end before this
this interview but i didn't want to rush it i want to spend more time on it
over the easter weekend coming up so very timely conversation i truly appreciate
it give a bit of intro on Scott, just to lay the scenes.
And then I do want to delve a little bit into your background so people can
(01:31):
learn about who you are and then just jump into some topics that are quite passionate
for me and areas I know that you're a deep expert in and have a ton of experience
on that I think people would like to hear.
So background on Scott. Scott's an ex-kidnap for ransom negotiator,
runs a negotiation advisory business, helps individuals, companies negotiate
(01:53):
better deals, resolve conflicts and thrive under pressure.
But prior to that, Scott has 16 years as a Scotland Yard detective.
Engaged in counterterrorism, kidnapping operations before leaving the UK in 2015.
Was working in supporting organizations, government departments,
as well as private. Oh, actually, since leaving the police force. There we go.
(02:15):
You've been supporting organizations, government departments,
private individuals, and negotiating the release of hostages all around the world.
And I think I read somewhere that you've been involved in leading over 300 hostage
negotiations, if that's correct, public and private.
And other types of crises, extortion, piracy, all of those very similar types
(02:38):
of perils that people find themselves in. Yeah, no, fantastic.
That's a huge depth to draw on. I think what was great about your book is within a few pages,
it's already drawing on experiences that you've had out in the field,
But then very quickly relating that back to broader organization,
(03:00):
government, and then corporate-related challenges versus some of the other books
in this area spent too much time, I think, on those case studies.
And it becomes a little difficult for the reader to try and connect the dots
in how this can be relevant for their life.
So I think fantastic job there.
One thing that also fascinated me was the title. So I kind of went down a rabbit
(03:24):
hole, I think, a few years ago reading up.
And I'd never studied it, but reading up about chaos and chaos theory,
suddenly when I saw that in your title, I was like, okay, wait,
maybe this is something he's been looking at as well.
But I think just for the listeners as well, a little bit about chaos theory,
it's almost, you know, there's physics as well as the whole discipline in math
or math, as you call it back in the UK around chaos theory. I want to read a little bit.
(03:49):
Just to kind of explain it, and then I think hopefully tie it to the area that
you bring to bear within negotiations.
But chaos, obviously, in its description is seemingly unpredictable,
right? It's the opposite.
I think maths explains it as being the opposite to a pendulum, right?
Where it's completely predictable where it's going to go, the movement that
it's going to make, and even the speed based on weight.
(04:12):
But chaos is seemingly unpredictable. unpredictable
but chaos explains or scales theory at
least anyway explains that within visible randomness there's
inherent repetition uh there are patterns self-organization
and interconnectedness and for
me i just think that changes my i mean it has changed my
whole perspective on life because there's there's so
(04:34):
much noise and seemingly kind of
chaotic events that happen out in
the world and in a negotiation setting almost that
is your challenge is despite all of the chaos
to try and look for patterns to understand you
know different people's points of view to be in full control of your emotions
(04:54):
in order to create some predictability and and drive to a certain outcome so
am i crazy is that where the where the connection of the term came from or is
it you know How did you come up with the title, I guess?
Yeah, I have to admit, Chaos Theory was not front and center.
I've just had a lesson in what Chaos Theory is from yourself, so thanks for that.
(05:17):
Essentially, it's the job description that I had.
My role as a kidnap for ransom negotiator, as a crisis response consultant,
as it's called in the industry, is to ultimately bring about a semblance of
order and calm and stability and,
(05:39):
even equanimity in what is a very chaotic, unpredictable, highly charged emotional.
Situation where if things go wrong, people die.
So it tends to focus the mind a little on working out what really works,
what doesn't, and then developing that order and that stability,
(06:01):
as i said to to bring someone to that uh to
the chaos okay and most of
your advisory work now is is it in the corporate setting and and how have you
the first question the second one is is how are you able to tie a lot of those
learnings together i mean there is there is a ton of emotion you know in the
(06:23):
commercial world a lot of the times there's a bit of smoke and mirror People are wearing masks,
but high stakes in M&A transactions, big outsourcing deals.
Tough transaction situations that people need to work through.
How do you make that connection quickly as you did in your book when you're
talking to corporate clients?
(06:44):
Well, most of my time now is spent putting on negotiation workshops and training
in corporate settings. things.
And I based that on the 15 plus years of experience of having a ringside seat
into the human psyche around what makes people think, feel, and act the way they do,
particularly in times of stress,
(07:06):
overwhelm, chaos, uncertainty, periods of change.
And particularly in the world we live in now where it can appear quite polarizing
at times, there's lots of conflict.
How do you have those better conversations? How do you have the difficult conversations?
How do you close a deal or bring your team with you when there's lots of uncertainty
(07:27):
and maybe a bit of conflict as well?
And it's when we think that, when we look at it as life is one big negotiation.
And that's not some glib throwaway line.
Let's have a look at that for a second. you know what
is negotiation it is ultimately looking to
influence and persuade bring about
(07:47):
some kind of cooperation or collaboration over the
long term and in the business sense we ultimately
want to get a client or customer for
life somebody keeps coming back to us we want
staff that we can retain and develop
within the organization and that has to be about our understanding our emotions
(08:09):
and how we operate and how we make decisions and making sure needs and values
and beliefs are met and create a conducive supportive environment for that to happen.
So how did you, let's turn back the clock, 16, 17 years.
How did you get into the police force initially? Is it kind of a childhood dream
(08:32):
like most people imagine or was it almost somewhat of a circumstance or a?
Just a last minute decision? How did that all come about?
Yeah, it was back in the late 90s when I decided to,
I lived in Birmingham in the center of the UK and I moved down to London and
(08:52):
joined the police there at Scotland Yard when I spent 16 years,
really happy years there.
I just had the best career I could ever wish for really. And towards the end
of my career, I specialized in kidnap for ransom negotiations and operations.
(09:13):
And my job primarily was to establish something called a red center,
which was where the negotiations, the communications with the kidnappers would take place from.
Usually a family member would be speaking on the phone at the kitchen table
or in a hotel room somewhere.
And my job was to, again, help them script the conversations and manage their
(09:36):
emotions and ultimately help the negotiation to get their loved ones back.
And then, you know, turn 40, 16 odd years, I'd done pretty much everything I wanted to do.
And I decided I wanted a career change and have a second career.
And so I left the police and then went to work for a consultancy firm in the
(09:58):
city who specialized in crisis response, particularly kidnapped for ransom cases.
And yeah, many years later and many cases later, I developed an understanding
of what works there in those kind of situations and what it takes to get the people back.
And then over time I was seeing there's lots of themes and patterns here. There's lots of.
(10:24):
Tools and techniques that are working, that are applicable to everybody's personal
and professional lives outside of those high stakes kidnappings.
And that's when I started to set up my own company and start delivering the
training and the workshops and doing the keynote talks all over the world.
(10:44):
I love it. I mean, you're a walking, talking, case study version of chaos theory in practice, right?
I've never been described that before that's for sure and i
don't know if any mathematicians or physicists could could kind
of study your brain to you know to
apply that as a as a concept in a in a university or
(11:07):
lecture theater setting but i think everything that
you're saying is you know applies back to that it's pretty interesting yeah
i loved i love the first part of your book where you were talking about sitting
down for coffee or maybe it was lunch with a colleague at
scotland in yard and you know and they just ask that question
to you and you considered the negotiation and crisis
unit and you know and the rest
(11:29):
is history so i think that just goes to the point of
you know at the time we perhaps don't see
the opportunities for what they are yeah i think it's important to to take them
and it's only when you look back the steps are clearly signposted yeah whereas
at the time thinking i've no idea if this is the right decision and you have
an intuition And I think sometimes people play down intuition and instinct,
(11:54):
but it's certainly served me well over the last few decades,
that's for sure. Yeah, I love it.
So one thing that you talk through in the support that you've given,
especially in those hostage situations, are you're not always the person delivering the message.
Sometimes you're behind the scene, you're developing the script.
And if I put that into a corporate setting, which is where a lot of people need
(12:15):
negotiation support, there's not someone coming in being, okay,
I'm going to take over and do this. Could they?
Absolutely. But there's a little bit less credibility, both in the initial situation,
but then also for the longevity of the relationship.
If the person with the budget or the person in the power, the person with the
title is not the one negotiating.
So a lot of the times it actually is them being guided and given the script
(12:40):
and someone to bounce ideas off after a conversation, after an email that's been shared.
So that really falls back into preparation, both before a negotiation seemingly
starts, first email, first conversation, or actually preparation during negotiation events.
(13:01):
What negotiation events, is that something that you have to constantly bring
up in conversations to encourage people to prepare more and expressing the importance there?
Preparation is key, even though the best laid plans never survive the first contact with enemy.
But in times of stress and high stakes, you rise or fall to the level of your preparation.
(13:26):
You know, you have to, there's an old military adage of train hard, fight easy.
And so when I wasn't on a case, and even now still, I will go into companies,
into organizations and train them how they can prepare for, well,
ideally avoid, but prepare for should someone get kidnapped or there'll be a cyber attack,
(13:47):
and to rehearse and to practice and prepare for that as much as possible.
But even if it's speaking with a sales team, actually, you can practice and
prepare for each time you jump on the call with a prospective client.
And I call it the bunch of fives, as in the palm of your hand,
(14:07):
is that if you can think of as part of your preparation, what are the top five challenges, issues,
questions, threats, demands that the other side is likely to levy against you
and you can work out what they're likely to be ahead of time,
then you can prepare and mitigate against those and even introduce those yourself at the beginning.
(14:29):
And by doing so, it reduces the, I guess, the energy, the negativity,
the poison that That may lie behind some of those accusations or challenges or threats.
And so we would do that on a kidnapping case. In every war, we'd sit down and
work out what are they likely to do.
It could be a mock execution. It could be silence.
(14:52):
It could be exaggerating the poor welfare of the hostages.
But in a business context, it could be that you think that the other side believe
or they think they're getting ripped off here. or it's not necessarily the best
deal or there's some flaws in your argument or in your side of the deal.
And if you can identify these ahead of time and get them out on the table,
(15:13):
because they're going to be there even if it's subconscious and it's a proverbial
elephant in the corner of the room, you've got to face it.
You've got to face these challenges ahead of time and then they no longer have
that control over you and then the conversation, the negotiation can flow a
lot easier. Do you find – I mean, I don't know.
This is something that definitely applies or has applied for my life in the
(15:35):
past is creation has given me confidence.
And then because I'm more confident, you know, it is a shared energy with the
people that you're, you're chatting with, you know, puts them at ease,
reduces their anxiety and fight or flight.
And they're just more likely to want to work with you. And there's some kind
of like, you know, like ability to you as an individual, but you don't get that
(15:58):
without the, so the preparation, almost half of half of the upside,
side is you know is in being able to plan how to
react and you know have your concessions laid
out but just by sheer nature of doing that you
could actually get just as much upside if not more from the
confidence you get from doing the preparation that then has a
has a positive impact is that does that
(16:19):
apply i mean has that applied in in hostage
situations where the family members they just
gain more confidence because you're there because you're helping calm
their nerves and therefore they're more likely to deliver
a message and you know and then the other people
the hostage takers are less likely to be anxious right
yeah likely to listen to the message yeah and
(16:41):
so i think you can allay their fears
and concerns by establishing and explaining to
them this is how this is likely to work
out you know there's going to be a period of
silence the kidnappers are going to come in with a
ridiculously high demand and they're
probably going to make some threats or some challenges that probably
(17:02):
gives a proof of life and then we need to hold our nerve we need to follow through
on the strategy that we've agreed and take our time as i said hold our nerve
and not give into those instinctive and unnatural emotional reactions to things.
And you mentioned there about likability, and that's a key factor in negotiation.
(17:25):
We're more likely to do business with somebody who we get on with,
that we like, and never is that more applicable in those really high stakes,
stressful situations as well.
Just super, super tough to stay confident, I think, when under stress.
Do you have any techniques I think I've heard?
(17:45):
People in the military as well as the police force talk about certain breathing techniques.
I think everyone has their own version of it in order to reduce stress and effectively
cortisol in your body and just become more relaxed.
Is there certain things that you use personally?
Yeah. Before every phone call with a kidnapper, every time I walked into the
(18:06):
meeting room with the family or the company, the hostage,
and even now before I give a keynote talk on stage or
there's a big negotiation deal is there's
a couple of breathing techniques that i found work for me the one
of which is is box breathing which most people will
be familiar with you know when you breathe in for four you hold it for four
(18:27):
seconds you breathe out for four and then you hold for four and then you repeat
it okay and that really does as you said reduces amount of cortisol balances
the autonomic nervous system and allows you to have a lot more clarity and
awareness of what's going on both inside of you and externally in your environment.
Because as a negotiator, you've got to have that sensory acuity,
(18:50):
the emotional intelligence side of things where you've got to be able to tune
into what is going on for you, what is going on for everybody else,
and how do you need to pivot and work with that.
And yes, this is why you can prepare and plan for stuff, but you still need
that agility to be able to respond in the moment it appropriately so there's
(19:12):
box breathing and then also there's the physiological side which is what we
do instinctively you know when we cry for example we'll do we'll do those two really,
quick in breaths followed by a long out breath and so all that is is just one long inhale.
And then just when you think you've done enough you have an extra inhale you
(19:33):
hold for a second and you release and you exhale for longer than which you inhale
and again that's another proven way of balancing out that nervous system.
And that's part of, I use something called an IA drill, an immediate action drill.
And there's three parts to it. And again, I've used it countless times on live
(19:55):
operations and also in the boardroom.
And nobody needs to know that you're doing it either.
So the first step is, this is when you may have been triggered or you're feeling
a bit overwhelmed, or you can feel your emotions or frustration getting the
better of you, is the first step is interrupt the pattern.
That could be something that's changing your breathing.
(20:16):
It could be standing up if you're sitting down, going for a quick walk,
just interrupting that negative loop that you're about to go on,
that disempowering story that's going around and around inside your head as
to trying to name, blame,
or shame somebody for something not going the way that you want it,
for example. So the first one is interrupt that pattern.
(20:36):
The second stage, the second step is ride the wave.
So for any surfers or skiers out there, it's for 90 seconds after that initial
trigger, so to speak, you've got this wave of cortisol and adrenaline pumping
through your body and you can't do anything about that.
That's just a natural, instinctive fight, flight or freeze moment.
(20:59):
But if you can ride that wave, if you can allow that feeling for 90 minutes,
90 seconds, up to two minutes and allow that to subside and to dissipate.
Because that's the time, that's
the period where most of us will say or do something we later regret.
So we need to just stay quiet, interrupt the pattern, ride the wave.
(21:21):
And then once we've balanced our nervous system, the third stage,
the third step is ask better questions.
Because only when we're in a balanced state can we ask a better question such
as, okay, what am I not seeing here? What's missing?
Or what's an opportunity here? Or what else do I need to find out?
(21:42):
What else could this mean?
And so you interrupt the pattern, you ride the wave, and you ask better questions
because if you can ask better questions, you get better answers.
And that three-step immediate action drill has served me well in all sorts of
situations, and it's one I recommend people try as well. And there's more details
(22:03):
in the book about how they can incorporate that.
Yeah, I love it. Well, anyone who hasn't got it yet,
as I mentioned, Order Out of Chaos, I think hearing it from you as well directly
and being able to kind of reflect beyond just reading the words in all the background
experience you've had that kind of brought you to what's packaged in there,
(22:24):
that's not a three-hour read.
That's 16, 17 years of a lot of experience that's all encapsulated in some key
tactics there. So I really appreciate your time, Scott.
I think if you're over in the US and you get to plan to come to Austin,
South by Southwest next year, it would be fun to host you, grab dinner or coffee or something. thing.
(22:48):
I think one of my dreams, although South by Southwest just finished two weeks
ago, is to get a cohort of negotiators and people in the field and ecosystem
from academics to prior law enforcement and kind of consulting and advisory all together for that.
It could be a lot of fun. I'd love to invite you if you're free. Thank you.
All right. Well, I appreciate your time, Scott. Good luck with the rest of the launch in the US.
(23:08):
And again, for anyone who hasn't got a copy of the book, it just came out yesterday,
literally hot off the press.
I encourage you to do so and follow Scott on Amazon, at least so congrats again
scott and i look forward to keeping in contact thank you thanks for having me.
Preparation is key. And so we would do that on a kidnapping case.
And everyone would sit down and work out what are they likely to do.
Silence, exaggerating. In a business context, it could be that you think the
other side think they're getting ripped off here, or it's not necessarily the
best deal, or there's some flaws in your argument.
And if you can identify these ahead of time and get them out on the table,
because they're going to be there, even if it's subconscious and it's a proverbial
(00:21):
elephant in the corner of the room, you've got to face it. You've got to face
these challenges ahead.
And then they no longer have that control over you. And then the conversation,
the negotiation can flow a lot easier.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the next recording of Experts Uncut. I'm very excited today.
We're kind of delving back into chatting with experts in negotiations.
(00:45):
I have with me Scott Walker from the UK. Thanks for coming on,
Scott. You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
So Scott's almost the, for those of you in the negotiation field,
likely a name you may have seen scott's book order
out of chaos just came out in the us although it's
already a sunday times i think bestseller in the uk yeah
so grab yourself a coffee copy i was very lucky to
(01:07):
be able to order and have it received yesterday on the first day of release
in the us but unfortunately didn't get through to the uh to the end before this
this interview but i didn't want to rush it i want to spend more time on it
over the easter weekend coming up so very timely conversation i truly appreciate
it give a bit of intro on Scott, just to lay the scenes.
And then I do want to delve a little bit into your background so people can
(01:31):
learn about who you are and then just jump into some topics that are quite passionate
for me and areas I know that you're a deep expert in and have a ton of experience
on that I think people would like to hear.
So background on Scott. Scott's an ex-kidnap for ransom negotiator,
runs a negotiation advisory business, helps individuals, companies negotiate
(01:53):
better deals, resolve conflicts and thrive under pressure.
But prior to that, Scott has 16 years as a Scotland Yard detective.
Engaged in counterterrorism, kidnapping operations before leaving the UK in 2015.
Was working in supporting organizations, government departments,
as well as private. Oh, actually, since leaving the police force. There we go.
(02:15):
You've been supporting organizations, government departments,
private individuals, and negotiating the release of hostages all around the world.
And I think I read somewhere that you've been involved in leading over 300 hostage
negotiations, if that's correct, public and private.
And other types of crises, extortion, piracy, all of those very similar types
(02:38):
of perils that people find themselves in. Yeah, no, fantastic.
That's a huge depth to draw on. I think what was great about your book is within a few pages,
it's already drawing on experiences that you've had out in the field,
But then very quickly relating that back to broader organization,
(03:00):
government, and then corporate-related challenges versus some of the other books
in this area spent too much time, I think, on those case studies.
And it becomes a little difficult for the reader to try and connect the dots
in how this can be relevant for their life.
So I think fantastic job there.
One thing that also fascinated me was the title. So I kind of went down a rabbit
(03:24):
hole, I think, a few years ago reading up.
And I'd never studied it, but reading up about chaos and chaos theory,
suddenly when I saw that in your title, I was like, okay, wait,
maybe this is something he's been looking at as well.
But I think just for the listeners as well, a little bit about chaos theory,
it's almost, you know, there's physics as well as the whole discipline in math
or math, as you call it back in the UK around chaos theory. I want to read a little bit.
(03:49):
Just to kind of explain it, and then I think hopefully tie it to the area that
you bring to bear within negotiations.
But chaos, obviously, in its description is seemingly unpredictable,
right? It's the opposite.
I think maths explains it as being the opposite to a pendulum, right?
Where it's completely predictable where it's going to go, the movement that
it's going to make, and even the speed based on weight.
(04:12):
But chaos is seemingly unpredictable. unpredictable
but chaos explains or scales theory at
least anyway explains that within visible randomness there's
inherent repetition uh there are patterns self-organization
and interconnectedness and for
me i just think that changes my i mean it has changed my
whole perspective on life because there's there's so
(04:34):
much noise and seemingly kind of
chaotic events that happen out in
the world and in a negotiation setting almost that
is your challenge is despite all of the chaos
to try and look for patterns to understand you
know different people's points of view to be in full control of your emotions
(04:54):
in order to create some predictability and and drive to a certain outcome so
am i crazy is that where the where the connection of the term came from or is
it you know How did you come up with the title, I guess?
Yeah, I have to admit, Chaos Theory was not front and center.
I've just had a lesson in what Chaos Theory is from yourself, so thanks for that.
(05:17):
Essentially, it's the job description that I had.
My role as a kidnap for ransom negotiator, as a crisis response consultant,
as it's called in the industry, is to ultimately bring about a semblance of
order and calm and stability and,
(05:39):
even equanimity in what is a very chaotic, unpredictable, highly charged emotional.
Situation where if things go wrong, people die.
So it tends to focus the mind a little on working out what really works,
what doesn't, and then developing that order and that stability,
(06:01):
as i said to to bring someone to that uh to
the chaos okay and most of
your advisory work now is is it in the corporate setting and and how have you
the first question the second one is is how are you able to tie a lot of those
learnings together i mean there is there is a ton of emotion you know in the
(06:23):
commercial world a lot of the times there's a bit of smoke and mirror People are wearing masks,
but high stakes in M&A transactions, big outsourcing deals.
Tough transaction situations that people need to work through.
How do you make that connection quickly as you did in your book when you're
talking to corporate clients?
(06:44):
Well, most of my time now is spent putting on negotiation workshops and training
in corporate settings. things.
And I based that on the 15 plus years of experience of having a ringside seat
into the human psyche around what makes people think, feel, and act the way they do,
particularly in times of stress,
(07:06):
overwhelm, chaos, uncertainty, periods of change.
And particularly in the world we live in now where it can appear quite polarizing
at times, there's lots of conflict.
How do you have those better conversations? How do you have the difficult conversations?
How do you close a deal or bring your team with you when there's lots of uncertainty
(07:27):
and maybe a bit of conflict as well?
And it's when we think that, when we look at it as life is one big negotiation.
And that's not some glib throwaway line.
Let's have a look at that for a second. you know what
is negotiation it is ultimately looking to
influence and persuade bring about
(07:47):
some kind of cooperation or collaboration over the
long term and in the business sense we ultimately
want to get a client or customer for
life somebody keeps coming back to us we want
staff that we can retain and develop
within the organization and that has to be about our understanding our emotions
(08:09):
and how we operate and how we make decisions and making sure needs and values
and beliefs are met and create a conducive supportive environment for that to happen.
So how did you, let's turn back the clock, 16, 17 years.
How did you get into the police force initially? Is it kind of a childhood dream
(08:32):
like most people imagine or was it almost somewhat of a circumstance or a?
Just a last minute decision? How did that all come about?
Yeah, it was back in the late 90s when I decided to,
I lived in Birmingham in the center of the UK and I moved down to London and
(08:52):
joined the police there at Scotland Yard when I spent 16 years,
really happy years there.
I just had the best career I could ever wish for really. And towards the end
of my career, I specialized in kidnap for ransom negotiations and operations.
(09:13):
And my job primarily was to establish something called a red center,
which was where the negotiations, the communications with the kidnappers would take place from.
Usually a family member would be speaking on the phone at the kitchen table
or in a hotel room somewhere.
And my job was to, again, help them script the conversations and manage their
(09:36):
emotions and ultimately help the negotiation to get their loved ones back.
And then, you know, turn 40, 16 odd years, I'd done pretty much everything I wanted to do.
And I decided I wanted a career change and have a second career.
And so I left the police and then went to work for a consultancy firm in the
(09:58):
city who specialized in crisis response, particularly kidnapped for ransom cases.
And yeah, many years later and many cases later, I developed an understanding
of what works there in those kind of situations and what it takes to get the people back.
And then over time I was seeing there's lots of themes and patterns here. There's lots of.
(10:24):
Tools and techniques that are working, that are applicable to everybody's personal
and professional lives outside of those high stakes kidnappings.
And that's when I started to set up my own company and start delivering the
training and the workshops and doing the keynote talks all over the world.
(10:44):
I love it. I mean, you're a walking, talking, case study version of chaos theory in practice, right?
I've never been described that before that's for sure and i
don't know if any mathematicians or physicists could could kind
of study your brain to you know to
apply that as a as a concept in a in a university or
(11:07):
lecture theater setting but i think everything that
you're saying is you know applies back to that it's pretty interesting yeah
i loved i love the first part of your book where you were talking about sitting
down for coffee or maybe it was lunch with a colleague at
scotland in yard and you know and they just ask that question
to you and you considered the negotiation and crisis
unit and you know and the rest
(11:29):
is history so i think that just goes to the point of
you know at the time we perhaps don't see
the opportunities for what they are yeah i think it's important to to take them
and it's only when you look back the steps are clearly signposted yeah whereas
at the time thinking i've no idea if this is the right decision and you have
an intuition And I think sometimes people play down intuition and instinct,
(11:54):
but it's certainly served me well over the last few decades,
that's for sure. Yeah, I love it.
So one thing that you talk through in the support that you've given,
especially in those hostage situations, are you're not always the person delivering the message.
Sometimes you're behind the scene, you're developing the script.
And if I put that into a corporate setting, which is where a lot of people need
(12:15):
negotiation support, there's not someone coming in being, okay,
I'm going to take over and do this. Could they?
Absolutely. But there's a little bit less credibility, both in the initial situation,
but then also for the longevity of the relationship.
If the person with the budget or the person in the power, the person with the
title is not the one negotiating.
So a lot of the times it actually is them being guided and given the script
(12:40):
and someone to bounce ideas off after a conversation, after an email that's been shared.
So that really falls back into preparation, both before a negotiation seemingly
starts, first email, first conversation, or actually preparation during negotiation events.
(13:01):
What negotiation events, is that something that you have to constantly bring
up in conversations to encourage people to prepare more and expressing the importance there?
Preparation is key, even though the best laid plans never survive the first contact with enemy.
But in times of stress and high stakes, you rise or fall to the level of your preparation.
(13:26):
You know, you have to, there's an old military adage of train hard, fight easy.
And so when I wasn't on a case, and even now still, I will go into companies,
into organizations and train them how they can prepare for, well,
ideally avoid, but prepare for should someone get kidnapped or there'll be a cyber attack,
(13:47):
and to rehearse and to practice and prepare for that as much as possible.
But even if it's speaking with a sales team, actually, you can practice and
prepare for each time you jump on the call with a prospective client.
And I call it the bunch of fives, as in the palm of your hand,
(14:07):
is that if you can think of as part of your preparation, what are the top five challenges, issues,
questions, threats, demands that the other side is likely to levy against you
and you can work out what they're likely to be ahead of time,
then you can prepare and mitigate against those and even introduce those yourself at the beginning.
(14:29):
And by doing so, it reduces the, I guess, the energy, the negativity,
the poison that That may lie behind some of those accusations or challenges or threats.
And so we would do that on a kidnapping case. In every war, we'd sit down and
work out what are they likely to do.
It could be a mock execution. It could be silence.
(14:52):
It could be exaggerating the poor welfare of the hostages.
But in a business context, it could be that you think that the other side believe
or they think they're getting ripped off here. or it's not necessarily the best
deal or there's some flaws in your argument or in your side of the deal.
And if you can identify these ahead of time and get them out on the table,
(15:13):
because they're going to be there even if it's subconscious and it's a proverbial
elephant in the corner of the room, you've got to face it.
You've got to face these challenges ahead of time and then they no longer have
that control over you and then the conversation, the negotiation can flow a
lot easier. Do you find – I mean, I don't know.
This is something that definitely applies or has applied for my life in the
(15:35):
past is creation has given me confidence.
And then because I'm more confident, you know, it is a shared energy with the
people that you're, you're chatting with, you know, puts them at ease,
reduces their anxiety and fight or flight.
And they're just more likely to want to work with you. And there's some kind
of like, you know, like ability to you as an individual, but you don't get that
(15:58):
without the, so the preparation, almost half of half of the upside,
side is you know is in being able to plan how to
react and you know have your concessions laid
out but just by sheer nature of doing that you
could actually get just as much upside if not more from the
confidence you get from doing the preparation that then has a
has a positive impact is that does that
(16:19):
apply i mean has that applied in in hostage
situations where the family members they just
gain more confidence because you're there because you're helping calm
their nerves and therefore they're more likely to deliver
a message and you know and then the other people
the hostage takers are less likely to be anxious right
yeah likely to listen to the message yeah and
(16:41):
so i think you can allay their fears
and concerns by establishing and explaining to
them this is how this is likely to work
out you know there's going to be a period of
silence the kidnappers are going to come in with a
ridiculously high demand and they're
probably going to make some threats or some challenges that probably
(17:02):
gives a proof of life and then we need to hold our nerve we need to follow through
on the strategy that we've agreed and take our time as i said hold our nerve
and not give into those instinctive and unnatural emotional reactions to things.
And you mentioned there about likability, and that's a key factor in negotiation.
(17:25):
We're more likely to do business with somebody who we get on with,
that we like, and never is that more applicable in those really high stakes,
stressful situations as well.
Just super, super tough to stay confident, I think, when under stress.
Do you have any techniques I think I've heard?
(17:45):
People in the military as well as the police force talk about certain breathing techniques.
I think everyone has their own version of it in order to reduce stress and effectively
cortisol in your body and just become more relaxed.
Is there certain things that you use personally?
Yeah. Before every phone call with a kidnapper, every time I walked into the
(18:06):
meeting room with the family or the company, the hostage,
and even now before I give a keynote talk on stage or
there's a big negotiation deal is there's
a couple of breathing techniques that i found work for me the one
of which is is box breathing which most people will
be familiar with you know when you breathe in for four you hold it for four
(18:27):
seconds you breathe out for four and then you hold for four and then you repeat
it okay and that really does as you said reduces amount of cortisol balances
the autonomic nervous system and allows you to have a lot more clarity and
awareness of what's going on both inside of you and externally in your environment.
Because as a negotiator, you've got to have that sensory acuity,
(18:50):
the emotional intelligence side of things where you've got to be able to tune
into what is going on for you, what is going on for everybody else,
and how do you need to pivot and work with that.
And yes, this is why you can prepare and plan for stuff, but you still need
that agility to be able to respond in the moment it appropriately so there's
(19:12):
box breathing and then also there's the physiological side which is what we
do instinctively you know when we cry for example we'll do we'll do those two really,
quick in breaths followed by a long out breath and so all that is is just one long inhale.
And then just when you think you've done enough you have an extra inhale you
(19:33):
hold for a second and you release and you exhale for longer than which you inhale
and again that's another proven way of balancing out that nervous system.
And that's part of, I use something called an IA drill, an immediate action drill.
And there's three parts to it. And again, I've used it countless times on live
(19:55):
operations and also in the boardroom.
And nobody needs to know that you're doing it either.
So the first step is, this is when you may have been triggered or you're feeling
a bit overwhelmed, or you can feel your emotions or frustration getting the
better of you, is the first step is interrupt the pattern.
That could be something that's changing your breathing.
(20:16):
It could be standing up if you're sitting down, going for a quick walk,
just interrupting that negative loop that you're about to go on,
that disempowering story that's going around and around inside your head as
to trying to name, blame,
or shame somebody for something not going the way that you want it,
for example. So the first one is interrupt that pattern.
(20:36):
The second stage, the second step is ride the wave.
So for any surfers or skiers out there, it's for 90 seconds after that initial
trigger, so to speak, you've got this wave of cortisol and adrenaline pumping
through your body and you can't do anything about that.
That's just a natural, instinctive fight, flight or freeze moment.
(20:59):
But if you can ride that wave, if you can allow that feeling for 90 minutes,
90 seconds, up to two minutes and allow that to subside and to dissipate.
Because that's the time, that's
the period where most of us will say or do something we later regret.
So we need to just stay quiet, interrupt the pattern, ride the wave.
(21:21):
And then once we've balanced our nervous system, the third stage,
the third step is ask better questions.
Because only when we're in a balanced state can we ask a better question such
as, okay, what am I not seeing here? What's missing?
Or what's an opportunity here? Or what else do I need to find out?
(21:42):
What else could this mean?
And so you interrupt the pattern, you ride the wave, and you ask better questions
because if you can ask better questions, you get better answers.
And that three-step immediate action drill has served me well in all sorts of
situations, and it's one I recommend people try as well. And there's more details
(22:03):
in the book about how they can incorporate that.
Yeah, I love it. Well, anyone who hasn't got it yet,
as I mentioned, Order Out of Chaos, I think hearing it from you as well directly
and being able to kind of reflect beyond just reading the words in all the background
experience you've had that kind of brought you to what's packaged in there,
(22:24):
that's not a three-hour read.
That's 16, 17 years of a lot of experience that's all encapsulated in some key
tactics there. So I really appreciate your time, Scott.
I think if you're over in the US and you get to plan to come to Austin,
South by Southwest next year, it would be fun to host you, grab dinner or coffee or something. thing.
(22:48):
I think one of my dreams, although South by Southwest just finished two weeks
ago, is to get a cohort of negotiators and people in the field and ecosystem
from academics to prior law enforcement and kind of consulting and advisory all together for that.
It could be a lot of fun. I'd love to invite you if you're free. Thank you.
All right. Well, I appreciate your time, Scott. Good luck with the rest of the launch in the US.
(23:08):
And again, for anyone who hasn't got a copy of the book, it just came out yesterday,
literally hot off the press.
I encourage you to do so and follow Scott on Amazon, at least so congrats again
scott and i look forward to keeping in contact thank you thanks for having me.
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