February 19, 2024 • 44 mins
Hanna Neret, the creative trophy-collecting genius from Sweden joins us in this episode. Her images have won numerous accolades including the 2022 Societies Photographer of the Year. She gives us an insight into how she creates her masterpieces and what motivates her.
Images ©Hanna Neret. See more of her work on Hanna's Instagram
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the FocusedProfessional podcast.
This is episode five and I'm Joe Lenton.
(00:31):
[Theme Music] Welcome to theFocused Professional podcast.
And today we've got a special guest, Hanna
Neret from Sweden, and we're verypleased to have her on today.
She's a multi award winning photographer.
She's won many different trophies,
especially known forher storytelling style.
She has taught at the Societies of
Photographers convention and infact, that's where we first met.
(00:54):
Good to see you, Hanna.Good to be here.
Thank you for inviting me.
So you must have enjoyed the convention in
London if you're still onspeaking terms with us Brits.
Yeah, it was fantastic.
I mean, it was my third time there andit's really turned into one of the
highlights of the year, goingto London and being there.
Such a lovely bunch of people, you know.
(01:15):
So, yeah, had a great time.That's great.
Do you travel a lot then?I used to.
I love travelling, but same as everyone
else, there was a pandemic camein the way of that, I guess.
Plus I have two relatively young kids, so
I haven't really travelledthat much in recent years.
But it's picking up now.
I'm actually going to WPPI in a few weeks
(01:36):
and then later this yearI'm going to Iceland.
So I'm really looking forward tostart exploring the world again.
So presumably that's more of a holidayrather than to collect another trophy.
Yes.
No trophies to be foundin Iceland, I think.
Well, you never know.
You never know what you find in a geyser!
I don't know.
(01:56):
Yeah, well, there's some interesting stuffgoing on there at the moment with all the
eruptions that are happening, so, yeah,land of fire and ice, as they say.
I hope the volcanoes calmdown a bit for our trip.
Yeah.Although I suppose it does heat the area
up and it's known forbeing a bit cold, but...
True.I am Swedish though, so I mean.
You're used to the cold.
(02:20):
Did you find anything a bit odd then whenyou came to the UK for the first time?
Was there anything that you had tosort of forgive us for and get used to?
No.
I've been to the UK somany times over the years.
I actually lived and worked in London avery brief time when I was a teenager and
then I've worked with British people formany, many years and I have British
friends, so I think I'm pastthe point of being surprised.
(02:42):
I think it's really lovely people.
I think the cultural differenceto Sweden is not massive.
We're pretty similar.Similar sense of humour.
So I really liked the Britishpeople, really enjoyed being there.
Oh, that's great.Oh, you can come again.
That's good.Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
You've got quite a strong teamfrom Sweden at the moment.
(03:03):
You're picking up quite a fewawards between you, I noticed.
And there's the World photographic Cup,where you're doing well in that also.
Do you know the otherphotographers from Sweden well?
Yes, by now I would say I do.
I mean, we live in different parts of thecountry, so we may not meet that much in
between awards, but we definitely stay intouch and it's a really wonderful,
(03:26):
friendly and supportivecommunity around this.
So I think we both cheer each other on andwe can be happy for each other's success.
But I think one of the reasons that wehave had this success in recent years is
also that we have each otheras competitors as well.
We're friends, but we're also forcingeach other to be better all the time.
And I think that's a reallyhealthy situation for all of us.
(03:49):
It helps to keep you sharp,I suppose, doesn't it?
Yeah, definitely.
Oh, that's good.
It's nice to be able to share your successwith others, though, I should think, as
well, when you've got peoplethere to celebrate with.
Oh, definitely.And, I mean, if there's five of you in a
team, then you have five times thenumber of potential wins to celebrate.
Right.So I'm really happy that we have this
(04:11):
good, strong team goingand it's really wonderful.
Lovely people as well.
So people I'm really happyfor when they do well.
That's great.Yeah.
So do you find winning awards is a bigmotivation for you to do your photography?
Yeah.It's not really noble.
Is it?
We all do these thingsfor different reasons.
(04:32):
Some people do it for money, somepeople do it for other things.
So, if that's what you like,then what's wrong with that?
It's something I've really learned about
myself, that I am a lot morecompetitive than I thought.
I used to say that I'm not a competitive
person, and my husband has alwayslaughed about this, saying "really?".
(04:53):
He saw things that Ididn't know about myself.
But since I started this photographicjourney then and discovered photographic
competitions, I've really realisedthat, yeah, it is a big motivator.
I'd like to think that it's not so much
about the medals and the trophies asI think two other things, really.
So the first thing is that it naturallygives me an audience for the art that I
(05:19):
create, because if I didn't havethat, who would I create them for?
You could go down the route of having abig social media presence and all of that,
but I don't really have thetime or the interest to do that.
So I think I would have just gotten sickof that after a while, chasing followers.
That doesn't really motivate me.
(05:40):
Or the other route you could take is do
exhibitions, but that also takesa lot of time and work well.
And money getting themall printed as well.
It could get expensive.Exactly.
And to be fair, competitions can alsoget quite expensive after a while.
But it's relatively easy.
Andfor me, it's easy to know that when I'm
creating something, I'm doing that with aset of photographic judges in mind, that
(06:04):
they are my target audience andthey are who I'm creating for.
And that pushes me toget better all the time as well, because
there's no one as picky as aphotographic judge in a competition.
Right?Ohhh yes!
I can't do good enough.
I need to do as perfect as I can get it.
So I think that's one of the drivers forme, that I have someone to create for.
(06:26):
And the second thing withcompetitions is that.
So I have a background in science, I havea master's degree in engineering, and
I.T., and I think that says somethingabout the way my brain works.
I'm quite analytical, and this system of
having a set of clearly definedcategories, and you assign a numerical
score to an image, that'svery scientific, isn't it?
(06:47):
You take something that's very creative
and you apply the scientificapproach to evaluating that.
And I think that really suits meand my way of thinking about things.
You get, like, a really clear confirmationlike, "this you did well" and "this could
be improved."It's a very scientific approach to
feedback because in the creative industry,otherwise it can get quite fluffy.
(07:11):
What's good?And what's not?
Why do people like this and not this?Yeah.
So do you find you're starting to
anticipate what judges areactually going to like better now?
So you can look at your images andthink, this is going to score well.
This one, not so much.
Yeah, definitely.
And of course, I don't only createwith the purpose of winning awards.
(07:34):
There's the whole joy ofactually creating as well.
But it's definitely something that I tryto apply to any image that I'm creating.
How could I do this fromthe perspective of a judge?
So that the judge will also like this.Right.
So are you considering getting a further
insight by learning tobe a judge yourself?
(07:55):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I'm going to judge the Swedish nationals
this year, so that will be my first timeas a print judge and I've been invited to
judge a swiss online competition,so that's going to be a lot of fun.
I really look forward to that.
I think I'm going to learn a lot about my
own creative process in that, but I alsothink it's just really good to be able to
(08:16):
give back to the communityand help other people grow.
I'm really looking forward tothat aspect, I think, most of all.
Yeah.
I mean, your work often inspires otherpeople to try different things as well.
I think it's lovely seeingcreative people's images, not just
technically excellent, but they've gotsomething else behind it and it encourages
(08:37):
other people to raise the barand to do something more as well.
And of course, you were teachingat the convention recently as well.
Is that a side of thingsyou'd like to do more of?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I have done that for a couple ofyears, actually, in Sweden as well.
So I freelance for an online platformwhich teaches everything creative, really.
(08:57):
It's based in photography and photo
editing, but there's a lot more thatthey're offering right now as well.
But I've done some online courses for themon image editing, so that's definitely
something I enjoy and Ireally want to continue doing.
So going from that online setting to liveclassroom training has been a lot of fun
(09:18):
and it's definitely somethingthat I'm going to keep doing
GreatIf I get the chance again, but I hope so.
Yeah.
Well, look forward to seeing whatyou come up with next, really.
Yeah, absolutely.Okay.
Now, what then do you find reallymakes photography fun for you?
What part of it all is the most fun?
(09:39):
Is it the shooting, theediting, that kind of thing?
It's the creative process that leadsup to the final image, I think, for me.
So I am definitely not a documentaryphotographer and I never will be.
And I'm also not a nature photographerbecause I don't have the patience of lying
(10:00):
around in a bush somewhere and wait for abird in a specific light for three days.
No.
So for me, it's not so much about the
final image as it is aboutall the stuff that leads up to that image.
So thinking about ideas,
thinking about how can I make thisconcept or idea that I have come to life?
(10:23):
How can I do that?What props do I need?
What model do I need,what setting do I need?
And also preparing for that.
Getting those props, getting the clothes,finding the people, setting up the scenes.
That whole thought process and preparation
process is something thatI really, really enjoy.
That's the best part for me, really.
(10:45):
And then I also love editing.
I mean, I spend a lot of hours inPhotoshop because I really enjoy it.
I can imagineI know a lot of photographers feel like
editing is the boring part and just thenecessary evil, but for me, no, that's
where a lot of the creativityhappens for me as well.
When I start to visually see it and I can
tweak and adjust and just make it cometogether, it's extremely satisfying.
(11:09):
I think it's also a part of your style
because, I mean, for me, as a productphotographer, sometimes people just say,
well, why don't yououtsource your editing?
Because a lot of it's just getting ridof any dust, any imperfections in things.
And you think, well, that's not all it is.
There are other things involved as well.
It's the way in which I choose to use
contrast and other elements within theedit that is actually a continuation of my
(11:33):
style from how I litit in the first place.
A part of your style as aphotographer is that editing part.
Some people choose to do very little,some people choose to do more.
But I think it's important nowadays to
recognise that it is an integralpart of being a photographer, really.
(11:54):
I 100% agree.
I could never outsource that.That's the fun part.
Right.Even cleaning up dust, I don't mind.
Yeah.
Well, also, if you're going to do
competitions, you kind ofhaven't got much choice.
You can't go outsourcing your editsfor that sort of thing, can you?
No.
So you're enjoying this kind of likebuilding up stories with your images.
(12:17):
Did you go into photography intending to
do that, or did you start off trying allsorts of different things and eventually
you came across this and youthought, yes, this is my thing.
I started to learn how to use.
I've had a digital camera for ages, butlike so many other people, I thought it
was about the camera andnot the person using it.
So I just shot everything on auto mode.
(12:38):
And some images were okay.
Most of them were crap.
But it wasn't until I went on maternity
leave with my oldest son where I reallystarted to learn, because I found this
classroom training at the majorphotography museum in Stockholm.
Back then at least they had courses for
people on maternity leave, so youcould actually bring your kid.
(13:01):
So we were like nine moms and one dad each
with a baby, and you could breastfeedor change a diaper or whatever in class.
No one minded and it was so good because
it was a course that was for me, becauseeverything else that you do when you're on
maternity leave, at least here, it'ssort of directed towards the baby.
So baby swimming, baby theatre, babymusic, whatever, but babies don't care.
(13:22):
My son was like four months old.
He cared about eating andsleeping and [poo noise].
Babies are quite simple likethat, but mothers are not.
No [laughs]For me, it's really nice to have something
that was challengingand developing for me.
So I really enjoyed that class and I sortof started to learn how to use my camera.
(13:43):
And of course, that made me very motivated
as well, having a child, because obviouslyyou want to document your child, right?
So for the first couple of years,that's pretty much what I did.
I took pictures of him and startedto get at least a little bit better.
And then when my second son arrived and I
was again on maternity leave, I did afollow up course which made me deep dive a
(14:07):
bit more into both using the camera, butalso we got to try out studio photography.
We talked about image editing and sortof a little bit more advanced stuff.
And that's when I really got hooked.
That's when I understood thisis what I'm meant to be doing.
So initially it was moreabout photographing people.
I started to invite all my friends with
(14:28):
kids and force them to be modelsfor me just so I could practise.
So I have so many picturesof my friends kids.
Well, I see you still use your ownquite regularly for photo shoots.
Exactly.They hate it, but they're easily bribable.
They don't always hate it.
Sometimes they canactually enjoy it as well.
(14:50):
But, yeah.
So, no, I didn't startout on this route at all.
I started out just by wanting to takegood pictures of my kids, really.
And then when I started to learn moreabout picture editing and found Photoshop,
that's when I really understoodthe creative potential.
Like, wow, I can really create somefantastic stuff here if I learn this.
So I started a project which I called the
(15:13):
Vintage family, which was a set of imageswhere I used my own family as models.
And I dressed us all in vintage clothes
and set up these scenes where like lookinglike they were from their twenties,
thirties, forties, fifties,doing different things, like cooking or
doing magic tricks or packing asuitcase, trying on clothes, whatever.
(15:35):
It was like storytelling imagesin a vintage setting.
And these images got a lot of positiveattention because I started to post them
online in different Facebookgroups and Instagram and so on.
And I think all of that positive attentionand people saying, "these are really good,
you should enter them into competition."Then you got this positive loop of
(15:56):
feedback which made me realise that, yeah,people appreciate this and I enjoy doing
it, so maybe this iswhat I should be doing.
So I think that's sort of where it all
started, and then it's justbeen continuing on from there.
Grown a lot.Yes.
So, now, where do your ideasfor stories tend to come from?
(16:17):
Are you inspired by people you're with?
Is it something you've read?
Is it something you've seen on TV?
Or do you just somehow createit out of your own mind?
I'd say that most of my ideas, not all,
but most actually start witha prop or an object or a scene that I see.
(16:41):
I do a lot of thrift shopping.
I browse, like, thriftshops for used stuff.
I love the vintage look,right, so old stuff.
So it could be like finding an oldtypewriter in one of those shops.
Then I buy that and I think about,okay, what can I do with this?
I really love how this looks.
What can I do with it?
Or walking past a bus stop.
A bus stop is something that you couldeasily represent in an image, right?
(17:04):
There are people waiting normally.What are they waiting for?
Could I do something with that?
Can I explore that idea and make it into
something bigger than justpeople waiting for a bus?
Could they be waiting for changes in lifeor their dreams to come true or whatever?
So, it usually starts with somethingphysical, I would say, rather than the
idea or the story itselfthat I want to tell.
(17:25):
So if you're finding yourself feelingyou've not quite got an idea for your next
project, you're most likely to go shoppingin, like a sort of a charity shop or
something, or an antique shop,and see what you can find.
I don't think I've ever been in asituation of not having any ideas.
Really?Yeah.
I have a list of probably, I don't know,
(17:46):
70, 80 ideas on my phonethat just keeps on growing.
Have you bought all those items already?
No, definitely not.
Some of them I have.
For me, lack of ideashave never been a problem.
Lack of time is the problem.
I have so many of those ideas that I
really want to realise, butI just don't have the time.
(18:08):
So I guess I'll just startpicking them off one by one.
But it's an ever-growing list.
So, yeah, I am not too afraid thatI will run out of ideas, actually.
You'll probably need a very big cupboardfor your props as well, as time goes by.
Yeah, that's the problem.
I have a lot of them alreadyand nowhere to store them.
Home is getting very cluttered.
So do you ever have times where you feel abit demotivated with your photography
(18:32):
where it's hard to pick up the cameraor are you always looking forward to it?
Oh, I definitely feel demotivated attimes, and that is always when I have too
much going on in theother aspects of life.
I don't make my living as a photographer.
I have another job that I do in acorporate job, nine to five work.
(18:54):
And that's the type of job that can
usually it can be done in 40hours in a week, but not always.
I definitely need to put in theextra hours every now and then.
And lots of stuff that I can't really
leave behind when Ileave the office either.
So I feel that when that becomes intense,
then obviously the amount of time that Ihave for photography is a lot smaller and
(19:18):
the same if there's a lot going on withthe kids or too many social engagements.
So that definitely sometimes make me feellike I don't even want to pick up my
camera because I don'thave the energy right now.
But I'm also in a very privilegedsituation then because I'm not dependent
on my photography to pay my bills, then Ican simply not do photography for a while.
(19:40):
And that has definitely happened.
Like, okay, I'm stepping away for two
months now and just lettinglife catch up with me.
And then what's happened so far, at least,
is always that I've been able tofind my way back to that motivation.
Once things are a bit more inbalance in life in general.
So just getting rid of some of the stress
just helps you to discoveryour motivation then?
(20:02):
Definitely.
Okay, that's interesting because I supposemost of my work tends to be
stuff that I'm doing for somebody elsethat they've commissioned and therefore
can be quite restrictivein what they want.
For someone like me, that actually quite
likes being creative and occasionallyentering competitions, I can very rarely
(20:25):
do so because most people want pictures ofthings on a white background, which is...
No, for a competition, it's useless.
It doesn't matter how good the product is.
No one wants to see like anecommerce image at a competition.
So, I find a lot of the time I have to
create my own personal projects andfind the extra energy for those.
(20:49):
Otherwise it can just get quite
tiring just keep plodding doingthat in order to make a living.
So for you, it's a little bit more of a
conscious choice then, andyou can do creatively what you feel like.
Do you think then that you would rather
not switch to earningfully from photography?
Do you think that that kind of pressure
(21:10):
would actually be a negativefor you with your creativity?
Definitely.
I am in a very privileged situation right
now that I have thisjob that I really like.
I have no desire to leavewhat I do for a living.
I really enjoy that.
So it's, of course, really great to have
that and also be able todo photography on the side.
(21:32):
People keep asking me, when are yougoing to become a full time photographer?
And the answer to that is just never.
It's not going to happen.
I mean, I do a little bitof shooting for clients.
I do family outdoor sessions for clients,which is very different from my creative
work because there'shardly any editing in that.
It's more like being in the moment,trying to get those kids to do what I
(21:54):
want, which is a challenge initself and one that I really enjoy.
I like working with kids
and that sort of gives me a little bit ofan income that can cover the photography
related costs and again,teaching and so on.
So there's a commercial side to it, butthen what I do for competitions, that is
100% personal projects, noone is paying me for that.
It's just me.
(22:14):
And what you were saying about peoplewanting things on a white background, I
don't want anyone else to dictatewhat I spend all those hours on.
I want to do it the wayI want to do it, right?
So that time is sort of wholly for me, and
I wouldn't want to do thattype of work for anyone else.
Yeah, I mean, some of your sort of
illustrative images is sort of like youcould almost think, well,
(22:36):
that could work well in the advertisingindustry, but it is so prescriptive.
You've got art directors, you've got all
these layers of people that have to sayyes or no, and they'll come back to you
and say, we want thischanged, we want that changed.
And that's not for everybody.
Some people find it very difficult to have
other people having that kindof input with their work.
(22:57):
Definitely.And I think for me, I've always been
rather independent and wantedto do things my own way.
And here I really have the chanceto do that sometimes to the extreme.
I wish I was a bit more collaborativesometimes in my image creation.
That's something I think I want to try anddevelop, bounce my ideas off other
photographers or get feedbackoutside of competitions and so on.
(23:20):
So I think maybe I'm a bit to the extreme.
Sometimes it would be good to have someone
else's opinion to workby as well sometimes.
Yeah.
One thing that things like the Societies
of Photographers and others offer is thatkind of mentoring along the way,
especially to producelike panels of images.
You can do it just to develop your style.
(23:40):
It doesn't always have to befor qualifications and all that.
But is that something you think you'll
benefit from or is that something youthink you'll find it quite hard because
you'll be a bit protectiveof what you've made?
No, I've done the mentoring programme.
I've had two sets of images, I think,
through that and I've got somereally fantastic feedback on that.
So thanks Christina Lauder for that.
She's been a great mentor.
(24:01):
So, no, that's been super useful and
that's also, you know, one of the reasonswhy I've really understood that, yeah,
this is probably a good thing andsomething that I should do more.
So are you a keen learner then?
Do you read a lot?
I used to.
These days with life being sobusy, very little, unfortunately.
(24:23):
But I wish I did more.
But I used to love books.
I used to be a reader like 100% of thetime when I was a kid, walking into
doorstops, holding a bookand reading while walking.
So with all that you're doing at themoment, do you have goals ahead of you?
Are you somebody who likes to plan aheadand aim for particular things or would you
(24:44):
prefer to just allow your photographyto sort of float along a bit more?
I guess I am normally a planner, but whenit comes to my photography, it's really
important for me that I allow it to bepassion driven and not performance driven.
So for that reason, I'm choosingto not set up any goals.
(25:06):
I'd rather keep it just floating along and
then do whatever I feellike in the moment.
That being said, I have signed up now todo a qualification panel next year at the
convention, so that's somethingthat I'll need to work towards.
Yes, that's going to befun, but hard work, I guess.
But I try to stay away from things like I
definitely don't want to grow my businessbecause I don't have the time for that.
(25:28):
So there's nothing there.
And of course I want to keep developingand getting even better at what I do, but
I also don't have any time pressureor sort of set criteria for that.
It's just an ongoing journey that I really
enjoy the journey itself and not focustoo much on the end station, so to speak.
(25:49):
Do you have any kind of dream projectswhere you think, if only I could afford to
do that, or wish if I could go thereor wish I could work with that person.
Is there anything that you could think of
that if there were no barriers, youthink, I'd really love to photograph that.
That would be a great project.
One of my pet peeves is really thatthe diversity in models in the
(26:14):
photographic industryis just [claxon] right.
90% are young, skinny whitegirls, pretty, in their early 20s.
So many images that look like that,and to me, that's so uninspiring.
I really would like to see a transition
where all sorts of people, I'm not sayingdon't shoot the pretty 20 year olds, of
(26:34):
course you can do that as well, butsociety consists of more people than that.
Something that I try to do is tophotograph people of all ages and both
genders and people of colour,people of all different backgrounds.
And that's something that I would like tokeep exploring as well, and especially
(26:56):
since storytelling is oneof my passions, right?
Then there's so much more story to be told
if you have a person that looks like areal person and not like a Barbie doll
that you put some clotheson to make a pretty picture.
So I guess the answer to your question is
not a specific person or not a specificplace, but exploring more interesting
people with interesting appearances thatmight have a story to tell visually.
(27:21):
Yeah, that sounds interesting.Yeah.
Is that something you thinkyou might need to travel to do?
Is that something you think youcan do in your sort of home studio?
I think I could do it.
I'm always on the lookout for people withinteresting looks,
whether I'm at work, in the cafeteria,or out on the street or at the gym.
(27:41):
I think the main challenge is just that Ihave to overcome the built in shyness of
walking up to someone I don't knowand say, hi, can I photograph you?
That's scary.
I've done that once.
It turned out really well.
He was super happy to be asked and wasa fantastic model, so that was all good.
So maybe I should try and be abit more confident in that area.
(28:04):
I think most people would enjoy it.
It's a challenge for myself,I guess, to do that more.
Yeah, some of those things can bequite difficult, especially if..
I mean, I'm very much an introvert, so for
me to go up to somebody I don't know andask them to do something is difficult.
It's like, even big parties, even withpeople I know, I find very difficult.
(28:27):
Whereas some people sort ofthink, what's the problem?
You just go talk to someone,it's just another person.
It can depend quite a lot on what type of
person you are, as to whetherthat's natural or not, can't it?
Definitely.And I mean, I'm not a shy person as such,
but it's also, I guess,a very cultural thing.
In Sweden, we are quitescared to talk to strangers.
(28:49):
It's something that we're known forinternationally.
Making small talk withstrangers is not our strength.
So it's also not just about me, but alsoabout how will the other person think?
What would the other personthink if I come up to them?
Will they be scared?Will they be uncomfortable?
Yeah.
(29:09):
Do you think then that with your
storytelling, with people like that,it sounds as though that idea to bring
more diversity into portraits and so on,that sounds as though you could risk going
into images, becoming a little bitsort of political and all that.
Is that something you would happily do, or
would you be careful andreluctant to do that?
(29:30):
No, I don't think it's political.
Just want to represent people of moreskin tones and races and whatnot.
I don't think it has to be political.
And no, I don't think I'mgoing down the political route.
That doesn't really interest me as much.
I guess it depends on what youdefine as political as well.
(29:52):
I have no problem with taking a stanceagainst racism or homophobia or sexism.
I don't see that as political.
I see that as justbeing a decent human being.
So I guess it depends onwhere you draw the line.
But if we're talking party politics,then, no, I'm not that interested.
Oh, no.
But it's more that kind of a message which
(30:13):
has perhaps got a challengefor parts of society, really.
That's probably more what I mean, not
aligning yourself withanybody in particular, no.
But sort of thinking that with yourimages, there was one that you had
in the convention where a lot of the timepeople sort of think, well, images are
there to create a lot of the positiveemotions or to get you interested.
(30:35):
But we had one in there with a lady
leaning against this hourglass with allthis sort of symbolism around her
that actually brought a lotof people close to tears.
It's a challenging kind of an image, a
sort of topic that perhaps is notcommonly spoken about.
So it seems as though you do quite like tobring a little bit of a challenge to your
(30:59):
viewer by showing them something thatperhaps they're not used to seeing.
Yeah, that's something that I've sort ofdiscovered along the way, I guess, because
that image is about infertility and thestruggles that many, especially women,
face with getting older and feelingthat you're running out of time.
That's the title of theimage, "Running out of time".
(31:21):
And everyone else is having babies andposting on social media, and you have this
sort of social pressureas well of becoming a mum.
And to me, that topic is close to heart,not because I've experienced it myself,
but because I have quitea lot of friends who have.
So it's something that I think, for me, is
(31:42):
not something that people don't speak of,because we speak of it quite openly and I
know so many people whohave struggled with it.
And that might be acultural thing as well.
ButI think for me, the positive feedback that
I have gotten around doing that kind ofimages that make people a little bit
uncomfortable, maybe becauseit's heavy on feelings.
It's not just happy and cute.
(32:04):
There's been a lot of people reaching out
both about that image and other images,saying that this really moved me.
Thank you for bringing attentionto this sensitive topic.
So it's obvious that it means a lot forpeople, if you dare to go a little bit
outside just creating prettypictures and happy pictures.
Absolutely.Yeah.
You tell a story so powerfullyand simply with an image.
(32:27):
You often have actually quite few props,
really, when you consider howcomplicated some scenes can end up being.
You can look at some of the classical
painters and some of thescenes can be incredibly busy.
There's a lot going on there, but you seem
to find ways of tellinga story quite concisely.
You seem to pick quite key
(32:49):
items that represent somethingimportant for the story.
So you don't need an awful lot.
How difficult is that?
Do you find that you actually have toweed out things so you get it simple?
Or are you somebody who naturally starts
from a very simple place andonly adds in what's necessary?
(33:09):
I think the latter because I tendto build my scenes from nothing.
It's not like I have a room full of things
and I shoot in there and thenI have to take things away.
Since most of my images are composites,
then of course the more things I add,the more work it means for me, right?
There's a natural carrot dangling in frontof me for not adding too many things.
(33:34):
And I also live by the rule that in astorytelling image, everything that's
visible in the frameshould add to the story.
If it doesn't add to the story, don't put
it there because it's just goingto be confusing for the viewer.
And I think that has reallyhelped me to keep it clean.
And sometimes I thinkabout, should I add this?
Should I do that?Should it be, rather than on a plain
(33:57):
background, should it bein some sort of setting?
But most of those times I end up feelinglike, no, this doesn't add to the story.
This risks distracting the viewers.
So I guess I quite like the more
minimalistic approach than themaximalistic approach in that sense.
Yeah.
Each part carries more meaningwith it as well, then, doesn't it?
(34:19):
From a simple item to the useof colour in the image, even.
It's a bit like Jessica's image thatwon the overall print at the convention.
In essence, it's very, very simple.
How can it be such an amazing print,but a dog cowering in an alley?
But the colour and everything tells a
(34:41):
story and by leaving things out again,it gives a sense of loneliness and that.
So it's an art knowing what toinclude, what not to include.
Have you got many images thatyou're working on at the moment?
I've got a couple, yes.
Trying to find the time.
Both of those are composites with quite a
(35:04):
lot of elements, sothey take a lot of time.
I try to do less and less of those, but
sometimes I have an ideathat I can't resist it.
So, I'll try and find the time to completethose and then I'm starting the project of
my qualification panel, which,where I need 20 images on the same theme.
So I think that's going to be a challengefor me because patience is not my strong
(35:27):
suit and I tend to get tiredof something quite easily.
I think I'm going to love it for the
first, like, two or three images,and then I'm going to hate it.
I'm going to do it.I'm going to do it.
Yeah.
I think the difficulty sometimes withputting a panel together like that is you
shoot maybe your first ten or somethinglike that, and then you start to think,
actually, I'm not happywith the first few anymore.
(35:48):
And you want to go back and do it again.
There's a danger that you just never
finish because you keeplearning as you do it.
And I certainly found I improved quite a
lot with my understanding of the lightingand everything as I was shooting.
And there's some stuff that I've shotsince then of similar subjects and
thought, I wish that couldhave been in my panel.
But it's a great way of giving youthat impetus to keep creating as well.
(36:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think I'm really going to learn a lot
from it, and it's going to bea very useful thing to do then.
Having said that, 20 images is quite a lotif you make them all composites, which
naturally makes them very timeconsuming to put together.
And it's more than I usually create in a
year, so I really have to be focusedand disciplined around this, I think.
That's interesting.
(36:35):
How many images would you say then, of
those kind of composites you aim forin a year, in a season of photography?
Probably around, I don't know, 15.
So maybe once a month or something.
12-15 ish.Yeah.
You're really refining a few images ratherthan just churning out lots and lots.
(36:57):
Definitely.Interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting.
All different approaches that people havefor creating their work and what they
connect with and what works withtheir personality and everything.
So you're clearly somebody who'sthat much more sort of methodical.
I mean, when you're doing your kind ofcomposites, do you take notes as to how
you've lit something so that when youshoot another element for the composite,
(37:20):
you know it, or do you juststore it all in your head?
I try to keep the lighting set up very
simple whenever I shoot for a composite,because the more advanced you make it, the
more difficult it is tomake it come together.
So I go about it by usingalmost always the same setup.
Just one single light comingfrom the upper-camera-right.
(37:43):
And that's it.Because then it's easy to remember.
Right.If you always keep the same.
If I do do a bit more advanced stuff,which happens not too often, but
occasionally, then, yeah, Iguess I would make some notes.
But if I look at the image, I canusually remember what my light setup was.
So I don't usually needthat kind of notes either.
(38:03):
And also because I don't do 100 imagesper year, I try to keep focused.
And it's not so many that Ihave to keep in my head either.
Yeah.What are the sort of common mistakes you
see people make when they're trying todo composites sort of for the first time?
Definitely the direction of light is oneof them, that you have the light coming
from different directions on your objectversus your background or setting.
(38:25):
So that's one.
The perspective is another one.
So shooting, for instance, the background
with a very wide angle lens and the objectwith the other way around, then a longer
focal length and those twoperspectives just doesn't match.
Or shooting the object slightly from above
when the scene that you're putting itin, it shots parallel to the ground.
(38:48):
So that kind of perspective is somethingthat took me a long time to really
understand how to see whatfits together and not.
And the third one wouldbe the depth of field.
So aligning the depth of field of thedifferent objects that you have so that
the focus plane is the same for allof them relative to your camera.
(39:09):
Yeah, there's a lot to bear in mind whenyou start going through it like that.
You just realise just how many elementsgo into making a composite image really
Yeah, definitely.
And I think all those three things arethings that you really need to think about
when you shoot, because it'sreally hard to fix in post.
I mean, of course it can dodge and burn if
you have the direction of light slightlyoff, but if you're doing it completely
(39:31):
wrong, then it's going to be reallydifficult to do something about it.
I mean, if the white balance is off,then you can always fix that in post.
That's a relatively easy writer if you
want to change the colourscheme, noise level or whatever.
But there are things that youreally need to get right in camera.
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
I've seen some interesting attempts along
(39:51):
the way and I've triedit occasionally myself.
And it can be...Yeah...
You look at it and there's part of when we
first grow into it, you look at it andthink it just looks a little bit strange.
I'm not quite sure what it is.
And then you start to realisewhat you need to do with that.
I've used a little bit of CGI sometimes tocreate backgrounds and that can work quite
(40:13):
well because you can actually set up acamera in there with exactly the same
settings as your camera that'staking the product shot.
So that works quite nicely.
Have you explored anything like CGI?
That's obviously slightly different to AI,which you definitely can't use in
competitions, but are you interested inthose coming from a scientific background?
(40:38):
Is it something that sparks your interest
or is it just, well, it's a tool and Ican't use it for competitions anyway.
I tried it a little bit when I was at
university,but, no, it's never really appealed to me.
And again then, no, I can't use it in
competitions anyway, soit doesn't really do it for me, I think.
(41:00):
I have some images where I've actuallydone drawings myself, like hand drawn
illustrations, and mergedthem with my image.
And that appeals to me a lot more than
creating something virtually, butthen it's usually a combination.
It's not CGI, but taking something thatI've drawn and refining that in Photoshop.
So there are elements that aren't 100%photographic as such, but not CGI.
(41:25):
And when it comes to AI,
that's of course a super exciting andinteresting development happening.
The text to image things that we see now,for me, going back to what I enjoy about
photography, it's thecreative process, right?
So AI for me is just skipping all thefun parts and getting to a result.
(41:47):
But that's nothing to do with what I havein my head anyway, because no matter how
good I get at prompting, it's notgoing to look like what's in here.
So AI doesn't fulfil anyneeds for me creatively.
I can definitely see the use cases in my
other job, in my corporate job,that's a fantastic opportunity.
But for my creative satisfaction,AI is not very interesting.
(42:09):
What I am hoping for, what I'm sure wewill see within the very short future or
near future, is AI tools makingcompositing easier, because there's still
a lot of hours that go into gettinga composite scene to look right.
And if AI can help withthat, then I'm super happy.
It could still be my images, it could
still be my vision, but just speeding upthe process, that would be good, I think.
(42:34):
I'm always kind of hopeful with eachrelease of Photoshop that the selection
tools will have gotthat little bit better.
A little bit better.Because the number of times where you go
around something with the pentool and you think, ughhh...
It's not the exciting part of the edit.
It's the bit where you stick some music on
in the background and youjust click and get on with it.
(42:57):
Each time I keep hoping and peoplesay, oh, look, look what it can do now.
And then I take it into my applicationsand say, like when I've been doing
jewellery and you get like a chain orsomething and you go, okay, cut all the
holes out on the chain andit goes, no, I can't do that.
He said, come on, do something useful.
To be fair, it is getting better and
better, but I agree with you,it's not all the way yet.
(43:19):
There is definitely stillimprovement potential.
Yeah.
And I don't want to giveit the creative stuff.
I want it to do the boring bits for me.
That's what the computer's for.Yeah.
That's a good way of phrasing it.Yeah, exactly.
When it can do the boring bits.
Then I'm happy to use AI.Brilliant.
Okay, well, thank you very muchfor talking to us today, Hannah.
(43:39):
It's been really great having you on thepodcast and we should look out for results
coming out in the future,see how you're doing.
And I'm sure there'll be plenty more
exciting images to see in thefuture photography competitions.
So thank you very much for coming on.
It's been a real pleasure.Thanks for having me.
It's great talking to you.And thank you all for listening.
(44:02):
This is the Focused Professional podcast.
Welcome to the FocusedProfessional podcast.
This is episode five and I'm Joe Lenton.
(00:31):
[Theme Music] Welcome to theFocused Professional podcast.
And today we've got a special guest, Hanna
Neret from Sweden, and we're verypleased to have her on today.
She's a multi award winning photographer.
She's won many different trophies,
especially known forher storytelling style.
She has taught at the Societies of
Photographers convention and infact, that's where we first met.
(00:54):
Good to see you, Hanna.Good to be here.
Thank you for inviting me.
So you must have enjoyed the convention in
London if you're still onspeaking terms with us Brits.
Yeah, it was fantastic.
I mean, it was my third time there andit's really turned into one of the
highlights of the year, goingto London and being there.
Such a lovely bunch of people, you know.
(01:15):
So, yeah, had a great time.That's great.
Do you travel a lot then?I used to.
I love travelling, but same as everyone
else, there was a pandemic camein the way of that, I guess.
Plus I have two relatively young kids, so
I haven't really travelledthat much in recent years.
But it's picking up now.
I'm actually going to WPPI in a few weeks
(01:36):
and then later this yearI'm going to Iceland.
So I'm really looking forward tostart exploring the world again.
So presumably that's more of a holidayrather than to collect another trophy.
Yes.
No trophies to be foundin Iceland, I think.
Well, you never know.
You never know what you find in a geyser!
I don't know.
(01:56):
Yeah, well, there's some interesting stuffgoing on there at the moment with all the
eruptions that are happening, so, yeah,land of fire and ice, as they say.
I hope the volcanoes calmdown a bit for our trip.
Yeah.Although I suppose it does heat the area
up and it's known forbeing a bit cold, but...
True.I am Swedish though, so I mean.
You're used to the cold.
(02:20):
Did you find anything a bit odd then whenyou came to the UK for the first time?
Was there anything that you had tosort of forgive us for and get used to?
No.
I've been to the UK somany times over the years.
I actually lived and worked in London avery brief time when I was a teenager and
then I've worked with British people formany, many years and I have British
friends, so I think I'm pastthe point of being surprised.
(02:42):
I think it's really lovely people.
I think the cultural differenceto Sweden is not massive.
We're pretty similar.Similar sense of humour.
So I really liked the Britishpeople, really enjoyed being there.
Oh, that's great.Oh, you can come again.
That's good.Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
You've got quite a strong teamfrom Sweden at the moment.
(03:03):
You're picking up quite a fewawards between you, I noticed.
And there's the World photographic Cup,where you're doing well in that also.
Do you know the otherphotographers from Sweden well?
Yes, by now I would say I do.
I mean, we live in different parts of thecountry, so we may not meet that much in
between awards, but we definitely stay intouch and it's a really wonderful,
(03:26):
friendly and supportivecommunity around this.
So I think we both cheer each other on andwe can be happy for each other's success.
But I think one of the reasons that wehave had this success in recent years is
also that we have each otheras competitors as well.
We're friends, but we're also forcingeach other to be better all the time.
And I think that's a reallyhealthy situation for all of us.
(03:49):
It helps to keep you sharp,I suppose, doesn't it?
Yeah, definitely.
Oh, that's good.
It's nice to be able to share your successwith others, though, I should think, as
well, when you've got peoplethere to celebrate with.
Oh, definitely.And, I mean, if there's five of you in a
team, then you have five times thenumber of potential wins to celebrate.
Right.So I'm really happy that we have this
(04:11):
good, strong team goingand it's really wonderful.
Lovely people as well.
So people I'm really happyfor when they do well.
That's great.Yeah.
So do you find winning awards is a bigmotivation for you to do your photography?
Yeah.It's not really noble.
Is it?
We all do these thingsfor different reasons.
(04:32):
Some people do it for money, somepeople do it for other things.
So, if that's what you like,then what's wrong with that?
It's something I've really learned about
myself, that I am a lot morecompetitive than I thought.
I used to say that I'm not a competitive
person, and my husband has alwayslaughed about this, saying "really?".
(04:53):
He saw things that Ididn't know about myself.
But since I started this photographicjourney then and discovered photographic
competitions, I've really realisedthat, yeah, it is a big motivator.
I'd like to think that it's not so much
about the medals and the trophies asI think two other things, really.
So the first thing is that it naturallygives me an audience for the art that I
(05:19):
create, because if I didn't havethat, who would I create them for?
You could go down the route of having abig social media presence and all of that,
but I don't really have thetime or the interest to do that.
So I think I would have just gotten sickof that after a while, chasing followers.
That doesn't really motivate me.
(05:40):
Or the other route you could take is do
exhibitions, but that also takesa lot of time and work well.
And money getting themall printed as well.
It could get expensive.Exactly.
And to be fair, competitions can alsoget quite expensive after a while.
But it's relatively easy.
Andfor me, it's easy to know that when I'm
creating something, I'm doing that with aset of photographic judges in mind, that
(06:04):
they are my target audience andthey are who I'm creating for.
And that pushes me toget better all the time as well, because
there's no one as picky as aphotographic judge in a competition.
Right?Ohhh yes!
I can't do good enough.
I need to do as perfect as I can get it.
So I think that's one of the drivers forme, that I have someone to create for.
(06:26):
And the second thing withcompetitions is that.
So I have a background in science, I havea master's degree in engineering, and
I.T., and I think that says somethingabout the way my brain works.
I'm quite analytical, and this system of
having a set of clearly definedcategories, and you assign a numerical
score to an image, that'svery scientific, isn't it?
(06:47):
You take something that's very creative
and you apply the scientificapproach to evaluating that.
And I think that really suits meand my way of thinking about things.
You get, like, a really clear confirmationlike, "this you did well" and "this could
be improved."It's a very scientific approach to
feedback because in the creative industry,otherwise it can get quite fluffy.
(07:11):
What's good?And what's not?
Why do people like this and not this?Yeah.
So do you find you're starting to
anticipate what judges areactually going to like better now?
So you can look at your images andthink, this is going to score well.
This one, not so much.
Yeah, definitely.
And of course, I don't only createwith the purpose of winning awards.
(07:34):
There's the whole joy ofactually creating as well.
But it's definitely something that I tryto apply to any image that I'm creating.
How could I do this fromthe perspective of a judge?
So that the judge will also like this.Right.
So are you considering getting a further
insight by learning tobe a judge yourself?
(07:55):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I'm going to judge the Swedish nationals
this year, so that will be my first timeas a print judge and I've been invited to
judge a swiss online competition,so that's going to be a lot of fun.
I really look forward to that.
I think I'm going to learn a lot about my
own creative process in that, but I alsothink it's just really good to be able to
(08:16):
give back to the communityand help other people grow.
I'm really looking forward tothat aspect, I think, most of all.
Yeah.
I mean, your work often inspires otherpeople to try different things as well.
I think it's lovely seeingcreative people's images, not just
technically excellent, but they've gotsomething else behind it and it encourages
(08:37):
other people to raise the barand to do something more as well.
And of course, you were teachingat the convention recently as well.
Is that a side of thingsyou'd like to do more of?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I have done that for a couple ofyears, actually, in Sweden as well.
So I freelance for an online platformwhich teaches everything creative, really.
(08:57):
It's based in photography and photo
editing, but there's a lot more thatthey're offering right now as well.
But I've done some online courses for themon image editing, so that's definitely
something I enjoy and Ireally want to continue doing.
So going from that online setting to liveclassroom training has been a lot of fun
(09:18):
and it's definitely somethingthat I'm going to keep doing
GreatIf I get the chance again, but I hope so.
Yeah.
Well, look forward to seeing whatyou come up with next, really.
Yeah, absolutely.Okay.
Now, what then do you find reallymakes photography fun for you?
What part of it all is the most fun?
(09:39):
Is it the shooting, theediting, that kind of thing?
It's the creative process that leadsup to the final image, I think, for me.
So I am definitely not a documentaryphotographer and I never will be.
And I'm also not a nature photographerbecause I don't have the patience of lying
(10:00):
around in a bush somewhere and wait for abird in a specific light for three days.
No.
So for me, it's not so much about the
final image as it is aboutall the stuff that leads up to that image.
So thinking about ideas,
thinking about how can I make thisconcept or idea that I have come to life?
(10:23):
How can I do that?What props do I need?
What model do I need,what setting do I need?
And also preparing for that.
Getting those props, getting the clothes,finding the people, setting up the scenes.
That whole thought process and preparation
process is something thatI really, really enjoy.
That's the best part for me, really.
(10:45):
And then I also love editing.
I mean, I spend a lot of hours inPhotoshop because I really enjoy it.
I can imagineI know a lot of photographers feel like
editing is the boring part and just thenecessary evil, but for me, no, that's
where a lot of the creativityhappens for me as well.
When I start to visually see it and I can
tweak and adjust and just make it cometogether, it's extremely satisfying.
(11:09):
I think it's also a part of your style
because, I mean, for me, as a productphotographer, sometimes people just say,
well, why don't yououtsource your editing?
Because a lot of it's just getting ridof any dust, any imperfections in things.
And you think, well, that's not all it is.
There are other things involved as well.
It's the way in which I choose to use
contrast and other elements within theedit that is actually a continuation of my
(11:33):
style from how I litit in the first place.
A part of your style as aphotographer is that editing part.
Some people choose to do very little,some people choose to do more.
But I think it's important nowadays to
recognise that it is an integralpart of being a photographer, really.
(11:54):
I 100% agree.
I could never outsource that.That's the fun part.
Right.Even cleaning up dust, I don't mind.
Yeah.
Well, also, if you're going to do
competitions, you kind ofhaven't got much choice.
You can't go outsourcing your editsfor that sort of thing, can you?
No.
So you're enjoying this kind of likebuilding up stories with your images.
(12:17):
Did you go into photography intending to
do that, or did you start off trying allsorts of different things and eventually
you came across this and youthought, yes, this is my thing.
I started to learn how to use.
I've had a digital camera for ages, butlike so many other people, I thought it
was about the camera andnot the person using it.
So I just shot everything on auto mode.
(12:38):
And some images were okay.
Most of them were crap.
But it wasn't until I went on maternity
leave with my oldest son where I reallystarted to learn, because I found this
classroom training at the majorphotography museum in Stockholm.
Back then at least they had courses for
people on maternity leave, so youcould actually bring your kid.
(13:01):
So we were like nine moms and one dad each
with a baby, and you could breastfeedor change a diaper or whatever in class.
No one minded and it was so good because
it was a course that was for me, becauseeverything else that you do when you're on
maternity leave, at least here, it'ssort of directed towards the baby.
So baby swimming, baby theatre, babymusic, whatever, but babies don't care.
(13:22):
My son was like four months old.
He cared about eating andsleeping and [poo noise].
Babies are quite simple likethat, but mothers are not.
No [laughs]For me, it's really nice to have something
that was challengingand developing for me.
So I really enjoyed that class and I sortof started to learn how to use my camera.
(13:43):
And of course, that made me very motivated
as well, having a child, because obviouslyyou want to document your child, right?
So for the first couple of years,that's pretty much what I did.
I took pictures of him and startedto get at least a little bit better.
And then when my second son arrived and I
was again on maternity leave, I did afollow up course which made me deep dive a
(14:07):
bit more into both using the camera, butalso we got to try out studio photography.
We talked about image editing and sortof a little bit more advanced stuff.
And that's when I really got hooked.
That's when I understood thisis what I'm meant to be doing.
So initially it was moreabout photographing people.
I started to invite all my friends with
(14:28):
kids and force them to be modelsfor me just so I could practise.
So I have so many picturesof my friends kids.
Well, I see you still use your ownquite regularly for photo shoots.
Exactly.They hate it, but they're easily bribable.
They don't always hate it.
Sometimes they canactually enjoy it as well.
(14:50):
But, yeah.
So, no, I didn't startout on this route at all.
I started out just by wanting to takegood pictures of my kids, really.
And then when I started to learn moreabout picture editing and found Photoshop,
that's when I really understoodthe creative potential.
Like, wow, I can really create somefantastic stuff here if I learn this.
So I started a project which I called the
(15:13):
Vintage family, which was a set of imageswhere I used my own family as models.
And I dressed us all in vintage clothes
and set up these scenes where like lookinglike they were from their twenties,
thirties, forties, fifties,doing different things, like cooking or
doing magic tricks or packing asuitcase, trying on clothes, whatever.
(15:35):
It was like storytelling imagesin a vintage setting.
And these images got a lot of positiveattention because I started to post them
online in different Facebookgroups and Instagram and so on.
And I think all of that positive attentionand people saying, "these are really good,
you should enter them into competition."Then you got this positive loop of
(15:56):
feedback which made me realise that, yeah,people appreciate this and I enjoy doing
it, so maybe this iswhat I should be doing.
So I think that's sort of where it all
started, and then it's justbeen continuing on from there.
Grown a lot.Yes.
So, now, where do your ideasfor stories tend to come from?
(16:17):
Are you inspired by people you're with?
Is it something you've read?
Is it something you've seen on TV?
Or do you just somehow createit out of your own mind?
I'd say that most of my ideas, not all,
but most actually start witha prop or an object or a scene that I see.
(16:41):
I do a lot of thrift shopping.
I browse, like, thriftshops for used stuff.
I love the vintage look,right, so old stuff.
So it could be like finding an oldtypewriter in one of those shops.
Then I buy that and I think about,okay, what can I do with this?
I really love how this looks.
What can I do with it?
Or walking past a bus stop.
A bus stop is something that you couldeasily represent in an image, right?
(17:04):
There are people waiting normally.What are they waiting for?
Could I do something with that?
Can I explore that idea and make it into
something bigger than justpeople waiting for a bus?
Could they be waiting for changes in lifeor their dreams to come true or whatever?
So, it usually starts with somethingphysical, I would say, rather than the
idea or the story itselfthat I want to tell.
(17:25):
So if you're finding yourself feelingyou've not quite got an idea for your next
project, you're most likely to go shoppingin, like a sort of a charity shop or
something, or an antique shop,and see what you can find.
I don't think I've ever been in asituation of not having any ideas.
Really?Yeah.
I have a list of probably, I don't know,
(17:46):
70, 80 ideas on my phonethat just keeps on growing.
Have you bought all those items already?
No, definitely not.
Some of them I have.
For me, lack of ideashave never been a problem.
Lack of time is the problem.
I have so many of those ideas that I
really want to realise, butI just don't have the time.
(18:08):
So I guess I'll just startpicking them off one by one.
But it's an ever-growing list.
So, yeah, I am not too afraid thatI will run out of ideas, actually.
You'll probably need a very big cupboardfor your props as well, as time goes by.
Yeah, that's the problem.
I have a lot of them alreadyand nowhere to store them.
Home is getting very cluttered.
So do you ever have times where you feel abit demotivated with your photography
(18:32):
where it's hard to pick up the cameraor are you always looking forward to it?
Oh, I definitely feel demotivated attimes, and that is always when I have too
much going on in theother aspects of life.
I don't make my living as a photographer.
I have another job that I do in acorporate job, nine to five work.
(18:54):
And that's the type of job that can
usually it can be done in 40hours in a week, but not always.
I definitely need to put in theextra hours every now and then.
And lots of stuff that I can't really
leave behind when Ileave the office either.
So I feel that when that becomes intense,
then obviously the amount of time that Ihave for photography is a lot smaller and
(19:18):
the same if there's a lot going on withthe kids or too many social engagements.
So that definitely sometimes make me feellike I don't even want to pick up my
camera because I don'thave the energy right now.
But I'm also in a very privilegedsituation then because I'm not dependent
on my photography to pay my bills, then Ican simply not do photography for a while.
(19:40):
And that has definitely happened.
Like, okay, I'm stepping away for two
months now and just lettinglife catch up with me.
And then what's happened so far, at least,
is always that I've been able tofind my way back to that motivation.
Once things are a bit more inbalance in life in general.
So just getting rid of some of the stress
just helps you to discoveryour motivation then?
(20:02):
Definitely.
Okay, that's interesting because I supposemost of my work tends to be
stuff that I'm doing for somebody elsethat they've commissioned and therefore
can be quite restrictivein what they want.
For someone like me, that actually quite
likes being creative and occasionallyentering competitions, I can very rarely
(20:25):
do so because most people want pictures ofthings on a white background, which is...
No, for a competition, it's useless.
It doesn't matter how good the product is.
No one wants to see like anecommerce image at a competition.
So, I find a lot of the time I have to
create my own personal projects andfind the extra energy for those.
(20:49):
Otherwise it can just get quite
tiring just keep plodding doingthat in order to make a living.
So for you, it's a little bit more of a
conscious choice then, andyou can do creatively what you feel like.
Do you think then that you would rather
not switch to earningfully from photography?
Do you think that that kind of pressure
(21:10):
would actually be a negativefor you with your creativity?
Definitely.
I am in a very privileged situation right
now that I have thisjob that I really like.
I have no desire to leavewhat I do for a living.
I really enjoy that.
So it's, of course, really great to have
that and also be able todo photography on the side.
(21:32):
People keep asking me, when are yougoing to become a full time photographer?
And the answer to that is just never.
It's not going to happen.
I mean, I do a little bitof shooting for clients.
I do family outdoor sessions for clients,which is very different from my creative
work because there'shardly any editing in that.
It's more like being in the moment,trying to get those kids to do what I
(21:54):
want, which is a challenge initself and one that I really enjoy.
I like working with kids
and that sort of gives me a little bit ofan income that can cover the photography
related costs and again,teaching and so on.
So there's a commercial side to it, butthen what I do for competitions, that is
100% personal projects, noone is paying me for that.
It's just me.
(22:14):
And what you were saying about peoplewanting things on a white background, I
don't want anyone else to dictatewhat I spend all those hours on.
I want to do it the wayI want to do it, right?
So that time is sort of wholly for me, and
I wouldn't want to do thattype of work for anyone else.
Yeah, I mean, some of your sort of
illustrative images is sort of like youcould almost think, well,
(22:36):
that could work well in the advertisingindustry, but it is so prescriptive.
You've got art directors, you've got all
these layers of people that have to sayyes or no, and they'll come back to you
and say, we want thischanged, we want that changed.
And that's not for everybody.
Some people find it very difficult to have
other people having that kindof input with their work.
(22:57):
Definitely.And I think for me, I've always been
rather independent and wantedto do things my own way.
And here I really have the chanceto do that sometimes to the extreme.
I wish I was a bit more collaborativesometimes in my image creation.
That's something I think I want to try anddevelop, bounce my ideas off other
photographers or get feedbackoutside of competitions and so on.
(23:20):
So I think maybe I'm a bit to the extreme.
Sometimes it would be good to have someone
else's opinion to workby as well sometimes.
Yeah.
One thing that things like the Societies
of Photographers and others offer is thatkind of mentoring along the way,
especially to producelike panels of images.
You can do it just to develop your style.
(23:40):
It doesn't always have to befor qualifications and all that.
But is that something you think you'll
benefit from or is that something youthink you'll find it quite hard because
you'll be a bit protectiveof what you've made?
No, I've done the mentoring programme.
I've had two sets of images, I think,
through that and I've got somereally fantastic feedback on that.
So thanks Christina Lauder for that.
She's been a great mentor.
(24:01):
So, no, that's been super useful and
that's also, you know, one of the reasonswhy I've really understood that, yeah,
this is probably a good thing andsomething that I should do more.
So are you a keen learner then?
Do you read a lot?
I used to.
These days with life being sobusy, very little, unfortunately.
(24:23):
But I wish I did more.
But I used to love books.
I used to be a reader like 100% of thetime when I was a kid, walking into
doorstops, holding a bookand reading while walking.
So with all that you're doing at themoment, do you have goals ahead of you?
Are you somebody who likes to plan aheadand aim for particular things or would you
(24:44):
prefer to just allow your photographyto sort of float along a bit more?
I guess I am normally a planner, but whenit comes to my photography, it's really
important for me that I allow it to bepassion driven and not performance driven.
So for that reason, I'm choosingto not set up any goals.
(25:06):
I'd rather keep it just floating along and
then do whatever I feellike in the moment.
That being said, I have signed up now todo a qualification panel next year at the
convention, so that's somethingthat I'll need to work towards.
Yes, that's going to befun, but hard work, I guess.
But I try to stay away from things like I
definitely don't want to grow my businessbecause I don't have the time for that.
(25:28):
So there's nothing there.
And of course I want to keep developingand getting even better at what I do, but
I also don't have any time pressureor sort of set criteria for that.
It's just an ongoing journey that I really
enjoy the journey itself and not focustoo much on the end station, so to speak.
(25:49):
Do you have any kind of dream projectswhere you think, if only I could afford to
do that, or wish if I could go thereor wish I could work with that person.
Is there anything that you could think of
that if there were no barriers, youthink, I'd really love to photograph that.
That would be a great project.
One of my pet peeves is really thatthe diversity in models in the
(26:14):
photographic industryis just [claxon] right.
90% are young, skinny whitegirls, pretty, in their early 20s.
So many images that look like that,and to me, that's so uninspiring.
I really would like to see a transition
where all sorts of people, I'm not sayingdon't shoot the pretty 20 year olds, of
(26:34):
course you can do that as well, butsociety consists of more people than that.
Something that I try to do is tophotograph people of all ages and both
genders and people of colour,people of all different backgrounds.
And that's something that I would like tokeep exploring as well, and especially
(26:56):
since storytelling is oneof my passions, right?
Then there's so much more story to be told
if you have a person that looks like areal person and not like a Barbie doll
that you put some clotheson to make a pretty picture.
So I guess the answer to your question is
not a specific person or not a specificplace, but exploring more interesting
people with interesting appearances thatmight have a story to tell visually.
(27:21):
Yeah, that sounds interesting.Yeah.
Is that something you thinkyou might need to travel to do?
Is that something you think youcan do in your sort of home studio?
I think I could do it.
I'm always on the lookout for people withinteresting looks,
whether I'm at work, in the cafeteria,or out on the street or at the gym.
(27:41):
I think the main challenge is just that Ihave to overcome the built in shyness of
walking up to someone I don't knowand say, hi, can I photograph you?
That's scary.
I've done that once.
It turned out really well.
He was super happy to be asked and wasa fantastic model, so that was all good.
So maybe I should try and be abit more confident in that area.
(28:04):
I think most people would enjoy it.
It's a challenge for myself,I guess, to do that more.
Yeah, some of those things can bequite difficult, especially if..
I mean, I'm very much an introvert, so for
me to go up to somebody I don't know andask them to do something is difficult.
It's like, even big parties, even withpeople I know, I find very difficult.
(28:27):
Whereas some people sort ofthink, what's the problem?
You just go talk to someone,it's just another person.
It can depend quite a lot on what type of
person you are, as to whetherthat's natural or not, can't it?
Definitely.And I mean, I'm not a shy person as such,
but it's also, I guess,a very cultural thing.
In Sweden, we are quitescared to talk to strangers.
(28:49):
It's something that we're known forinternationally.
Making small talk withstrangers is not our strength.
So it's also not just about me, but alsoabout how will the other person think?
What would the other personthink if I come up to them?
Will they be scared?Will they be uncomfortable?
Yeah.
(29:09):
Do you think then that with your
storytelling, with people like that,it sounds as though that idea to bring
more diversity into portraits and so on,that sounds as though you could risk going
into images, becoming a little bitsort of political and all that.
Is that something you would happily do, or
would you be careful andreluctant to do that?
(29:30):
No, I don't think it's political.
Just want to represent people of moreskin tones and races and whatnot.
I don't think it has to be political.
And no, I don't think I'mgoing down the political route.
That doesn't really interest me as much.
I guess it depends on what youdefine as political as well.
(29:52):
I have no problem with taking a stanceagainst racism or homophobia or sexism.
I don't see that as political.
I see that as justbeing a decent human being.
So I guess it depends onwhere you draw the line.
But if we're talking party politics,then, no, I'm not that interested.
Oh, no.
But it's more that kind of a message which
(30:13):
has perhaps got a challengefor parts of society, really.
That's probably more what I mean, not
aligning yourself withanybody in particular, no.
But sort of thinking that with yourimages, there was one that you had
in the convention where a lot of the timepeople sort of think, well, images are
there to create a lot of the positiveemotions or to get you interested.
(30:35):
But we had one in there with a lady
leaning against this hourglass with allthis sort of symbolism around her
that actually brought a lotof people close to tears.
It's a challenging kind of an image, a
sort of topic that perhaps is notcommonly spoken about.
So it seems as though you do quite like tobring a little bit of a challenge to your
(30:59):
viewer by showing them something thatperhaps they're not used to seeing.
Yeah, that's something that I've sort ofdiscovered along the way, I guess, because
that image is about infertility and thestruggles that many, especially women,
face with getting older and feelingthat you're running out of time.
That's the title of theimage, "Running out of time".
(31:21):
And everyone else is having babies andposting on social media, and you have this
sort of social pressureas well of becoming a mum.
And to me, that topic is close to heart,not because I've experienced it myself,
but because I have quitea lot of friends who have.
So it's something that I think, for me, is
(31:42):
not something that people don't speak of,because we speak of it quite openly and I
know so many people whohave struggled with it.
And that might be acultural thing as well.
ButI think for me, the positive feedback that
I have gotten around doing that kind ofimages that make people a little bit
uncomfortable, maybe becauseit's heavy on feelings.
It's not just happy and cute.
(32:04):
There's been a lot of people reaching out
both about that image and other images,saying that this really moved me.
Thank you for bringing attentionto this sensitive topic.
So it's obvious that it means a lot forpeople, if you dare to go a little bit
outside just creating prettypictures and happy pictures.
Absolutely.Yeah.
You tell a story so powerfullyand simply with an image.
(32:27):
You often have actually quite few props,
really, when you consider howcomplicated some scenes can end up being.
You can look at some of the classical
painters and some of thescenes can be incredibly busy.
There's a lot going on there, but you seem
to find ways of tellinga story quite concisely.
You seem to pick quite key
(32:49):
items that represent somethingimportant for the story.
So you don't need an awful lot.
How difficult is that?
Do you find that you actually have toweed out things so you get it simple?
Or are you somebody who naturally starts
from a very simple place andonly adds in what's necessary?
(33:09):
I think the latter because I tendto build my scenes from nothing.
It's not like I have a room full of things
and I shoot in there and thenI have to take things away.
Since most of my images are composites,
then of course the more things I add,the more work it means for me, right?
There's a natural carrot dangling in frontof me for not adding too many things.
(33:34):
And I also live by the rule that in astorytelling image, everything that's
visible in the frameshould add to the story.
If it doesn't add to the story, don't put
it there because it's just goingto be confusing for the viewer.
And I think that has reallyhelped me to keep it clean.
And sometimes I thinkabout, should I add this?
Should I do that?Should it be, rather than on a plain
(33:57):
background, should it bein some sort of setting?
But most of those times I end up feelinglike, no, this doesn't add to the story.
This risks distracting the viewers.
So I guess I quite like the more
minimalistic approach than themaximalistic approach in that sense.
Yeah.
Each part carries more meaningwith it as well, then, doesn't it?
(34:19):
From a simple item to the useof colour in the image, even.
It's a bit like Jessica's image thatwon the overall print at the convention.
In essence, it's very, very simple.
How can it be such an amazing print,but a dog cowering in an alley?
But the colour and everything tells a
(34:41):
story and by leaving things out again,it gives a sense of loneliness and that.
So it's an art knowing what toinclude, what not to include.
Have you got many images thatyou're working on at the moment?
I've got a couple, yes.
Trying to find the time.
Both of those are composites with quite a
(35:04):
lot of elements, sothey take a lot of time.
I try to do less and less of those, but
sometimes I have an ideathat I can't resist it.
So, I'll try and find the time to completethose and then I'm starting the project of
my qualification panel, which,where I need 20 images on the same theme.
So I think that's going to be a challengefor me because patience is not my strong
(35:27):
suit and I tend to get tiredof something quite easily.
I think I'm going to love it for the
first, like, two or three images,and then I'm going to hate it.
I'm going to do it.I'm going to do it.
Yeah.
I think the difficulty sometimes withputting a panel together like that is you
shoot maybe your first ten or somethinglike that, and then you start to think,
actually, I'm not happywith the first few anymore.
(35:48):
And you want to go back and do it again.
There's a danger that you just never
finish because you keeplearning as you do it.
And I certainly found I improved quite a
lot with my understanding of the lightingand everything as I was shooting.
And there's some stuff that I've shotsince then of similar subjects and
thought, I wish that couldhave been in my panel.
But it's a great way of giving youthat impetus to keep creating as well.
(36:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think I'm really going to learn a lot
from it, and it's going to bea very useful thing to do then.
Having said that, 20 images is quite a lotif you make them all composites, which
naturally makes them very timeconsuming to put together.
And it's more than I usually create in a
year, so I really have to be focusedand disciplined around this, I think.
That's interesting.
(36:35):
How many images would you say then, of
those kind of composites you aim forin a year, in a season of photography?
Probably around, I don't know, 15.
So maybe once a month or something.
12-15 ish.Yeah.
You're really refining a few images ratherthan just churning out lots and lots.
(36:57):
Definitely.Interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting.
All different approaches that people havefor creating their work and what they
connect with and what works withtheir personality and everything.
So you're clearly somebody who'sthat much more sort of methodical.
I mean, when you're doing your kind ofcomposites, do you take notes as to how
you've lit something so that when youshoot another element for the composite,
(37:20):
you know it, or do you juststore it all in your head?
I try to keep the lighting set up very
simple whenever I shoot for a composite,because the more advanced you make it, the
more difficult it is tomake it come together.
So I go about it by usingalmost always the same setup.
Just one single light comingfrom the upper-camera-right.
(37:43):
And that's it.Because then it's easy to remember.
Right.If you always keep the same.
If I do do a bit more advanced stuff,which happens not too often, but
occasionally, then, yeah, Iguess I would make some notes.
But if I look at the image, I canusually remember what my light setup was.
So I don't usually needthat kind of notes either.
(38:03):
And also because I don't do 100 imagesper year, I try to keep focused.
And it's not so many that Ihave to keep in my head either.
Yeah.What are the sort of common mistakes you
see people make when they're trying todo composites sort of for the first time?
Definitely the direction of light is oneof them, that you have the light coming
from different directions on your objectversus your background or setting.
(38:25):
So that's one.
The perspective is another one.
So shooting, for instance, the background
with a very wide angle lens and the objectwith the other way around, then a longer
focal length and those twoperspectives just doesn't match.
Or shooting the object slightly from above
when the scene that you're putting itin, it shots parallel to the ground.
(38:48):
So that kind of perspective is somethingthat took me a long time to really
understand how to see whatfits together and not.
And the third one wouldbe the depth of field.
So aligning the depth of field of thedifferent objects that you have so that
the focus plane is the same for allof them relative to your camera.
(39:09):
Yeah, there's a lot to bear in mind whenyou start going through it like that.
You just realise just how many elementsgo into making a composite image really
Yeah, definitely.
And I think all those three things arethings that you really need to think about
when you shoot, because it'sreally hard to fix in post.
I mean, of course it can dodge and burn if
you have the direction of light slightlyoff, but if you're doing it completely
(39:31):
wrong, then it's going to be reallydifficult to do something about it.
I mean, if the white balance is off,then you can always fix that in post.
That's a relatively easy writer if you
want to change the colourscheme, noise level or whatever.
But there are things that youreally need to get right in camera.
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
I've seen some interesting attempts along
(39:51):
the way and I've triedit occasionally myself.
And it can be...Yeah...
You look at it and there's part of when we
first grow into it, you look at it andthink it just looks a little bit strange.
I'm not quite sure what it is.
And then you start to realisewhat you need to do with that.
I've used a little bit of CGI sometimes tocreate backgrounds and that can work quite
(40:13):
well because you can actually set up acamera in there with exactly the same
settings as your camera that'staking the product shot.
So that works quite nicely.
Have you explored anything like CGI?
That's obviously slightly different to AI,which you definitely can't use in
competitions, but are you interested inthose coming from a scientific background?
(40:38):
Is it something that sparks your interest
or is it just, well, it's a tool and Ican't use it for competitions anyway.
I tried it a little bit when I was at
university,but, no, it's never really appealed to me.
And again then, no, I can't use it in
competitions anyway, soit doesn't really do it for me, I think.
(41:00):
I have some images where I've actuallydone drawings myself, like hand drawn
illustrations, and mergedthem with my image.
And that appeals to me a lot more than
creating something virtually, butthen it's usually a combination.
It's not CGI, but taking something thatI've drawn and refining that in Photoshop.
So there are elements that aren't 100%photographic as such, but not CGI.
(41:25):
And when it comes to AI,
that's of course a super exciting andinteresting development happening.
The text to image things that we see now,for me, going back to what I enjoy about
photography, it's thecreative process, right?
So AI for me is just skipping all thefun parts and getting to a result.
(41:47):
But that's nothing to do with what I havein my head anyway, because no matter how
good I get at prompting, it's notgoing to look like what's in here.
So AI doesn't fulfil anyneeds for me creatively.
I can definitely see the use cases in my
other job, in my corporate job,that's a fantastic opportunity.
But for my creative satisfaction,AI is not very interesting.
(42:09):
What I am hoping for, what I'm sure wewill see within the very short future or
near future, is AI tools makingcompositing easier, because there's still
a lot of hours that go into gettinga composite scene to look right.
And if AI can help withthat, then I'm super happy.
It could still be my images, it could
still be my vision, but just speeding upthe process, that would be good, I think.
(42:34):
I'm always kind of hopeful with eachrelease of Photoshop that the selection
tools will have gotthat little bit better.
A little bit better.Because the number of times where you go
around something with the pentool and you think, ughhh...
It's not the exciting part of the edit.
It's the bit where you stick some music on
in the background and youjust click and get on with it.
(42:57):
Each time I keep hoping and peoplesay, oh, look, look what it can do now.
And then I take it into my applicationsand say, like when I've been doing
jewellery and you get like a chain orsomething and you go, okay, cut all the
holes out on the chain andit goes, no, I can't do that.
He said, come on, do something useful.
To be fair, it is getting better and
better, but I agree with you,it's not all the way yet.
(43:19):
There is definitely stillimprovement potential.
Yeah.
And I don't want to giveit the creative stuff.
I want it to do the boring bits for me.
That's what the computer's for.Yeah.
That's a good way of phrasing it.Yeah, exactly.
When it can do the boring bits.
Then I'm happy to use AI.Brilliant.
Okay, well, thank you very muchfor talking to us today, Hannah.
(43:39):
It's been really great having you on thepodcast and we should look out for results
coming out in the future,see how you're doing.
And I'm sure there'll be plenty more
exciting images to see in thefuture photography competitions.
So thank you very much for coming on.
It's been a real pleasure.Thanks for having me.
It's great talking to you.And thank you all for listening.
(44:02):
This is the Focused Professional podcast.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com