June 24, 2024 • 56 mins
Fiona Elizabeth joins us to share her unexpected journey into wedding photography and the challenges she's faced along the way. Discover how Fiona balances the artistic and business aspects of her work and also helps others to do so through her Wedding Photographer Mentor programme. She is passionate about helping others to create successful wedding photography businesses, providing guidance and support drawn from her years of experience.
Hear the stories behind her impactful personal projects, including a poignant photographic essay based on the struggles of those living in a refugee camp in Calais. Her time there clearly moved her deeply and left a lasting impact on her as an artist and as a person. She then takes us on the road to her Fellowship in fine art with her "Atrophy" project. Inspired by the housing crisis and the many houses left empty and falling into disrepair, Fiona created a series of images with models on location that was to become her successful Fellowship qualification panel.
We also touch on the difficulties of imposter syndrome - even in the face of great success winning a category award in the Icon photography competition in Vegas and working as a judge at The Society of Photographers Convention. Fiona shares openly and honestly in this exclusive interview.
Images © Fiona Elizabeth (used here with permission)
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Focused Professional Podcast, sponsored by the Society of Photographers.
I'm your host Joe Lenton and this is Episode 17.
Music.
(00:33):
Welcome to the Focused Professional Podcast. Today our guest is a well-known
wedding photographer and also the wedding photography mentor and also another award winner.
It's Fiona Elizabeth. Hello, Fiona.
Hello, Joe. Thank you for inviting me on. It's a pleasure. It's great to be
able to have you on the podcast.
So you're well-known for your weddings and for also mentoring other wedding
(00:57):
photographers. So what was it that attracted you to weddings as your main genre
to shoot professionally?
Okay, so that's a really interesting question because it wasn't really where
my heart was when I first started.
So when I got married and had children,
I went back to college to study photography because I had this dream and passion
(01:18):
to be an artist and create art and sell it down in a nice little gallery in Brighton.
And that was my dream and that was my passion but on that journey
to get to that dream the the lecturer at
the college was wedding photographer and he
needed he needed a second shooter and asked if i would go out with him so the
(01:40):
first wedding i did with him i was like this is just not for me you need a thick
skin to play this game and i i i'm quite i'm quite shy at heart really and I
didn't I kind of felt very exposed,
let's put it that way so anyway I went away and I started editing the photos and I thought actually I.
(02:01):
Pictures are pretty okay they're not too bad and
he invited me out again and I was
really watching how he managed the crowd and
how he managed his couples to create outstanding work and he really is an absolutely
fantastic photographer and friend he really is I really enjoy I really enjoy
his company as much as I do his work it's it's incredible and so he really influenced
(02:25):
me and I I thought, why not? Let's give it a go.
And what I really loved about it was to be as creative as I possibly could in
that environment, to have the ordinary,
and I know it sounds like a little bit of a cliche, but to take the ordinary
and make something quite spectacular out of it. I found that I enjoyed that challenge.
(02:45):
So, yeah, that's it. So the rest was history, really. That's how I started in the game.
Right so you've got used to herding cats now then have you yeah more or less yeah drunk.
Is because that often seems to be one of
the key things to wedding photography although of
(03:06):
course there are different styles there are those who like to be a bit more
documentary and hide in the background those who like to take over a bit more
but it's a lot more than just photography skills isn't it how did you learn
from him then about how to deal with with people what could you observe that
you could then use yourself?
I didn't learn that from him as such, but I realized that I was very good at
(03:32):
being able to read body language.
I was very good at being able to read people, read a room.
I can walk into a room and I can sense the atmosphere strangely,
which means that I become more observant of the people who are in there.
(03:54):
So in terms of being able to manage the crowd and manage people,
I think it just came naturally.
And as my skin got thicker and as I became less sensitive to people turning
their backs on me when I held up the camera or making stupid comments,
(04:17):
sometimes quite crude comments, then I was able just to kind of get into my
flow and I thoroughly enjoyed it even more. The game.
You find the awkward person who doesn't want their photo taken and you make
a plan for how you're going to get them at some point.
(04:38):
Yes. yes so you've developed
your own style of wedding photography over
the time that you've been doing it could you describe what your signature
style is yeah i would say that it comes
from a place of timeless classical and quite elegant really i always want to
create photography that is definitely timeless but my couples can feel really
(05:03):
elegant in their pictures and and feel really proud of how they look on wedding day.
That's my main objective when I'm photographing my couples because they spend
so much money on their clothes, their garments, their dresses,
their veils, their shoes.
And I think it's just such a very beautiful way to capture the,
(05:27):
striking photography which they'll be able to look back at and go yeah i really
remember i really remember how i looked and i remember how i felt but then i
mix that with the the and the documentary and the you know they almost like a b-roll if you want.
Yeah so you've developed a few
different styles and different genres really so you did
(05:50):
a lot of the wedding photography and then perhaps people
might be surprised that actually your fellowship rather than it being in weddings
you chose to do like a location fine art
nude style what was it that made you go that
direction rather than thinking about doing a
fellowship in weddings for example well actually that
was my natural path to take fellowship in weddings and i was very fortunate
(06:14):
to have achieved my associates in wedding photography and i i was just i was
on this I was on this path to get my fellowship and then something happened and I hit a glass,
a creative glass ceiling and I felt that I couldn't push through it.
There was this ceiling and I couldn't smash through it.
(06:35):
And actually what I noticed was my photography, rather than getting better,
was actually getting worse.
And I just couldn't quite understand why that was happening.
And I think generally I was putting too much pressure on myself.
So I kind of took a step back and I thought well I really need to kind of discover
who I am as a photographer you know there's more to me than creating wedding
(06:57):
photography as much as I love it and as much as I strive to create the very
best I can so I went on a journey of self-discovery actually.
And you might not know this Joe but it first took me to the Calais camping in
in oh sorry the jungle Camp in Calais.
So I started documenting and created a photographic essay of life in this camp,
(07:22):
which was, it was horrendous. It was horrendous. And I feel very passionate about,
what's happening in the world today in terms of the migrants and how people
are suffering. But that's for another day.
If you're somebody who sort of feels, reads the room and feels the emotions
when you go in, going somewhere like that must have been really intense then. It was really hardcore.
(07:45):
And one story sticks in my mind.
Unfortunately, I didn't have the privilege of photographing this guy.
He didn't want me to photograph him. but i had
seen him my journey to the calais was
across two weekends and the first weekend
i i came across this guy and he was full of hope and
(08:06):
he was full of passion i can't remember the i think he was from afghan i can't
quite remember but he was full of hope and he was full of passion and his His
aim was to get to family who had re-established themselves in the States.
(08:26):
That was his drive. And he was a really great guy, really interesting,
and I really kind of warned to him.
Anyway, my time at that weekend came to an end, and I went back the following
weekend, and I saw him again.
And he was a shell of himself. and
they what happened within those
(08:49):
five days when i wasn't there was horrendous so
the french had come in and actually destroyed the
camp so on my second trip the smell of burning rubber and the the town itself
so they'd actually created a high street black market high street where they
had cafes they had they were restaurants they were selling food and clothes
(09:12):
and it was a it was a city in itself. It really was.
There were churches, there were mosques,
there were schools for kids to be educated, all in this shantytown.
Obviously, the French had gone in and destroyed it.
Incidentally, Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time and on my first visit
(09:33):
she was calling for the migrants to come over, younger migrants,
to the kids basically, to come over to the UK and get themselves out of that destitute of a place.
Anyway, this guy had a terrible experience and he had been forced to stand outside
a tent while this monster of a man had gone in and raped a woman.
(09:55):
Goodness me, that's quite something.
Were you able to have this published at all so that you could share what you'd
experienced, share your story with others?
Because obviously for most of us, this is so far outside of our everyday experience.
Sorry, I did produce a book called London Calling.
(10:17):
I wrote a photographic essay about the experience, but it's a very sensitive
book and I haven't done anything with it.
Maybe there'll be a time in the future I'm waiting
for that right time but it was a it was a horrendous thing
to go through but so so
that actually so strangely enough that experience then
(10:37):
led me to go to a more interesting place so when I came back and I had produced
this body of work I kind of felt like I had a passion of looking at what was
happening politically and I wanted to use my photography as a way to tell a story in that sense.
And there was a lot going on in the paper at the time about the housing crisis.
(11:04):
So not only were we dealing with all of migrants coming over in small boats,
but we were also dealing with our own economic problems and the housing crisis was a big one.
And I kind of felt very drawn to the story. And when I started delving emotionally
into the politics of it, I...
(11:27):
It's going to sound a bit strange, but I couldn't understand why there were so many.
I mean, obviously, I do understand, right? But at the same time,
I was questioning. There are so many derelict buildings up and down the country.
They're listed. They can't be knocked down. They can't be reused.
They're just there and they're just left to rot. and it
(11:47):
was really kind of threw up a question you
know why we could we could you
know put people in these we could redo them
we can you know keep some of the structure you know
surely something with these places and
and then and then i and then i kind
of moved on to feeling well once upon
(12:08):
a time they would have been full of love and family
and that's all
gone and i i likened that
to lost souls lost spirits you
know the loss of humanity within these buildings and
so me being me i decided
(12:28):
to embark on a new adventure and
a new journey and i had six fantastic
models who came on board the concept and
we did actually and i don't recommend this to anyone who's listening
so please do not do this we we did actually
work inside derelict buildings we did we did one shoot two shoots in a derelict
(12:51):
building but every time we went back to the building it was getting more and
more dilapidated to the point where it became too dangerous so i searched for
a new venue, a new location.
But just thought, do you know what?
This isn't safe for me, let alone these incredible women.
So, I hired locations in London.
(13:13):
There's an old church in Peckham and there's a safe house. And so,
although they weren't derelict, they had the impression that they were.
It was much safer and the girls were much happier.
And yeah, a short project called Atrophy.
The girls were covered in white clay,
So white face paint, sorry, and then sun-as-earth clay.
(13:33):
So they resembled the sort of cracking of the plaster work and the paper falling off.
And, yeah, they worked incredibly hard as I directed them through the process.
Yeah, it's quite a project, that sort of thing.
It sounds to me like the common thread really is that you're somebody who's
(13:55):
very much inspired by and wanting to tell stories.
Stories so your your wedding photography then also
your documentary photography but then also this this fine
art new panel it all seems to be very story motivated
to me looking at that is is that something that really connects
with you then people's stories yeah definitely i
think i'm quite connected to people anyway generally but i
(14:18):
do think that every time we pick up our camera there is a story
to be told even if it's you know
even if you're photographing a guitar or a watch even a
product photographer can tell a story yes but but
do you know what i mean we are storytellers you
know we're visionaries and we're and we're storytellers and
you know we have you know a unique ability to
(14:42):
be able to capture something which actually
comes from within us within us as a person so
we all have a our own you know usb if
you like but we can translate that into into
beautiful storytelling images so yeah
very much so yeah so you talk about translating
out from what's at your heart as a person i
(15:03):
mean very interested in what motivates people sometimes it's particular values
so sometimes it's like ethically driven like you wanting to tell the story of
the of the uh the migrants and so on i wonder what what is it that you would.
Say is at the heart of what you do that sort of gets you out of bed what's your
why what's your motivation.
Motivation oh we're not
(15:30):
allowed to swear are we those little no they're great no they they yeah my family
obviously motivates me more than anything but you know other than that i'm a
very passionate very nurturing person and to be able to put something back and help people to
achieve their own goals is a massive driver for me because I didn't have that growing up.
(15:56):
So as a creative growing up in a family that was driven by data and science,
it was very difficult to...
Fit into that sort
of space and as much as i tried it never
worked for me it just wasn't going to work so to be
in a position where i've worked hard to get
(16:17):
to where i am today in terms of my fellowship and my awards to be able to then
take all of that knowledge and experience and package it up to help others is
is a real it's a real passion it's a real dream of mine so that presumably is
why you decided to set up the wedding photography mentor,
it is indeed yes see those opportunities
(16:38):
to give back to share your experiences with people
and to to be for them I guess something perhaps that
you didn't have so much yourself yeah very
much so yeah to help guide them through being a
creative being creative is not an easy I mean
it can be some people it just comes naturally and you
know but others struggle i mean we because we are very sensitive to our environment
(17:02):
sometimes we can really struggle with that and also we can really struggle in
business as well structure is never
really great we like to be free and adventurous yeah we like to create.
So to give it to create a place where
that is fundamentally the core of the program to create a place where it's safe
(17:27):
for creatives to come and learn business acumen as well as excelling creatively
has been has has been a real i can't i can't put it into words i just,
it's a driver it's i you know that i wake
up in the morning and i feel excited about creating
this space for people to to come to learn to thrive so you sometimes find with
(17:53):
with business when we're talking about the photography industry there are people
who on the one hand are almost well i'll do anything that brings the money in
and it's very much about profit is is central to everything that they do.
And then there are others for whom their style, how they are as an artist,
is much more central to what they do.
(18:13):
Where do you sit along that sort of spectrum there?
And do you think it's possible to make a living wherever you are along there?
Or do you have to be a little bit more hard-nosed business to make it work?
Well, do you know what? We can be starving artists, no problem at all.
But I think what I've learned is that you need to have the two running side by side.
(18:36):
You have to embrace the business and there is a resilience.
There is a resistance to embracing business because people don't understand it.
And it's not really what turns us on. You know, we're creatives and so we like
spending time and crafting and creating and that's all very well and good.
(19:00):
But unfortunately, it won't keep the lights on.
And so it comes to a point where you have to embrace the business side of things
to be able to realize that you need to be able to fund and support your family.
And if life has taught me anything, it is to embrace both from the get-go.
(19:22):
Because the more you set up the foundations of your business at the starting
point, the more you can enjoy being the creative.
If you don't have the business foundations in place or you don't know how much
you really need to earn just to keep the lights on.
You're fighting a losing battle because you get kind of lost wanting to be the
(19:50):
creative side of things and that's where your heart is and that's where your passion is.
But you can't do that if you haven't got the money to fund it.
No, no. no so so the two the two
the two are very much in sync with
each other and the more you
know i kind of like to say to my mentees we're
(20:10):
creative right so let's be creative in business there's nothing wrong with reframing
it and and and don't be scared of it embrace the challenge embrace the creative
challenge of business and it becomes a bit of a game and you don't have to lose
yourself in it totally but if you ignore it you're never going to move forward.
(20:31):
You have to be able to, you've got to know your figures. You need to know your marketing message.
You need to understand your avatar. You need to know who you're talking to,
where those people hang out.
They don't always hang out on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn.
In you know sometimes your ideal market market
your ideal client might not care for any of that
(20:53):
at all you know so where where then are
you going to find them and by understanding all
of these bits and pieces to the puzzle and getting
the foundations laid and in place then you
can start reaping the benefits of money coming in through doing
what you love which is shooting and creating outstanding photography and
then you can even go off on another tangent and
(21:17):
go right well do you know what it's the weekend i'm going to go
and create something outstandingly beautiful i'm going to do
something reckless and dangerous and photograph it yeah
i don't think that trying
to run a photography business has to kill the fun of
it i think yes you need processes in
place marketplace to make things run smoothly you need
(21:38):
to understand is there a market for what you
offer if so where is that market and so on
because otherwise you're just producing something with no idea whether it'll
even sell so you need you need to understand those things i think what people
who are in of the creative mindset need to be a little bit careful of is that
perhaps that they don't fall out of love with the creative pursuit that got
(22:00):
them going in the first place as they start to put themselves in the business boxes.
Yes, I agree 100%. And do you know what?
I think that social media has got a lot to answer for there because we all feel
that social media is a place for us to draw and find leads and to attract our clients.
And then we get bogged down in the work that we have to do to even show up on social media,
(22:28):
post once a day, post every other day, find something to talk about every day, do a video, be present.
And then you kind of think, okay, well, if all your efforts are tied into one
channel of marketing, you're on a losing game. Yeah.
And you're destroying your soul because the algorithms, the competition,
(22:54):
the saturation of every industry is just too much for somebody to break.
It's too much for somebody to break. You have to understand that there are multiple
channels of marketing, both offline and online, and to choose which one you really want to go down.
(23:15):
Having spoken to a lot of photographers this year, everybody puts their eggs
in one basket and everyone's putting their eggs into the social media basket.
And it's just not how to run business.
It will kill you. It will kill the business. I wonder whether there are some
genres where it works better than others, but certainly from my perspective
(23:38):
with commercial work, with product work,
that is not where my clients are coming from and elements of what I do with
touring people and so on.
On, yeah, you're making more of a personal connection, but you need to understand
where your clients are going to be.
Are they somebody who's going to be searching on Google for it?
In which case, should you be putting your effort and your time,
(24:00):
your money into SEO and a good website?
Or are they somebody who is on LinkedIn every evening?
Is your audience really going to be someone who likes to watch 10 minutes of
TikTok videos every day?
But you can feel as though there are all these channels, you've got to do them all.
But yet sometimes people forget old media, don't you think? So what by old media,
(24:23):
I mean printed stuff, you know, real things you can hold in your hand.
Okay, so it's essential. So everyone who comes onto my programme will go through the process of,
ensuring that their websites are absolutely up
to scratch in terms of they have their branding sorted
they have their their presence sorted and
(24:45):
they are positioning they are beginning to position themselves as an authority
within a very crowded market once they get that into a place of near finished
or they're happy we then talk about printed material because you cannot have
a wedding photography business without a brochure,
without a printed portfolio,
(25:06):
without a stock of wedding albums because when you start to actually do offline
marketing, and that is talking to a wedding planner, that's talking to the bridal
shops, that's talking to events planners, your.
Venues, you need to have this material in your hand so when you go and see them,
you're actually armed and you're making
(25:29):
a community what the the driver of social
media is nothing more than having
a conversation it's nothing more than having
a conversation it is an area where you
almost have proof of life yes i do exist yes
i am real yes i am a photographer this is the
work i create do you like it i'm glad you like it
(25:50):
let's start having a conversation this is
a conversation starter but to actually be
able to draw business in and to create conversations
which will convert into monetary conversions
they're face-to-face communications it's
a very different dynamic isn't it when you get face-to-face with
(26:12):
someone it totally transforms the the
conversation versus just texting backwards
and forwards on an app or something like that you connect
in a in a totally different way and i
think that there is that danger that people get lured
into spending more and more time on social media and
thinking well why is it not working and then people will say to them oh well
(26:35):
you're not posting enough so they post more and they get on it seems to be a
beast that just wants an endless supply of food it doesn't necessarily and then
the supply and then End of supply of food. You've got it quite right. Absolutely.
But the way to play social media is to be quite smart with it as well and to
understand that this end of supply of food needs to be fed and how to feed it,
(27:01):
it has to be fed quickly in a sense that you have to get your message out there quickly.
You've got 60 seconds to turn somebody on.
You need to be able to
use language more than just
an image because it's it's so oversaturated with images to actually get someone
(27:23):
to stop and start to read is the challenge and when they start to read they
have to be totally engaged to actually get to the end of the post.
And that structure, when we start looking at social media in that way and that
structure of communication,
then it just becomes even more exciting because this is when,
(27:47):
as creatives, we can go, right, okay, let's tackle this.
Yeah yeah definitely and i
think when you look at advertising campaigns whether
that's the sort of adverts you see in breaks in
tv programs or whether it's adverts you see printed in magazines they are the
sort of thing that most of us just flick past very very quickly but when you're
(28:08):
starting to market your own business they're well worth learning from because
they've been they've been doing it for decades many of these big businesses
they know how to grab attention
quickly and make sure that you absorb everything that's in there.
And they also know that they don't have to speak to everybody.
They speak to their target market with it. So I encourage people to have a look
(28:32):
actually at adverts sometimes.
I know they can be a bit naff, they can be a bit silly, but the point is,
how are they getting your attention?
Not necessarily exactly what they're saying, but how are they doing this?
And that's something I think we can then reapply for
ourselves do you know what there are two adverts that really
come to mind right do you remember the bt advert where the
(28:53):
poor guy was climbing over snowdonia he was
trying to he was trying to reach somebody and it was pelting down with rain
was that british gas i don't know but and then and then there was the guinness
ad with the white oh yes coming out all the waves with the white horses now
these are the ads that if anybody wants to learn about marketing advertising
(29:14):
advertising, messaging,
then go back to the golden era of advertising because there you will have outstanding storytelling.
Today, I don't really watch too much TV today.
Everything's box sets and trash telly. But back in the day, those adverts were phenomenal.
(29:36):
And when I was working in TV, they were very close to my heart.
You know to live my life again i would love to be a director of adverts at that
time but yeah so there's some advice go and have a look at old commercials from the 80s yeah.
They're often things where the latest special effects the latest research into
(30:00):
how to communicate with people are used first they're often where if you take
your sort of pounds per minute budget on a program,
adverts are often a lot higher than a TV program in what they're spending on creating it.
So the production value is really high. It's something polished.
But yet so often we think, well, if I just stick some quick selfie up and bung
(30:23):
a couple of lines of text under it, then I'm being genuine. People know who I am.
People will like me, and if they like me, they'll buy off me.
Look at those adverts. Not quite so simple, is it?
It's not quite so simple, no. But maybe not so much look at the visual aspect
because the visual aspect is obviously striking and we can't be filmmakers unless
(30:46):
you're a videographer and then sure,
go eat heart out, special effects, nothing to stop you.
But it's the script you want to be listening to.
It's actually the language and how they structure that storytelling script to
get you to take action after the advert and back in the day incidentally they
weren't 60 seconds i think they were probably more like 30 seconds,
(31:11):
yeah they were very very short yeah you've got
very little time to get people's attention and to
to try and hold it so whatever industry you're
in it's it is a battle so i mean this
is this is is one skill then to some extent that
you need to be a modern wedding photographer i mean
what else would you say are the key skills the key things that you need in your
(31:33):
armory if you're going to be a wedding photographer today there are so many
choices okay so there are many there are so many choices there are so many styles
and you can play around with lots of different things but the strongest,
armour you can have when photographing a wedding is knowing light without a shadow of a doubt.
(31:58):
But you know I mastered natural and ambient light for one reason and one reason only I work on my own,
so I don't have the I don't have the time during a wedding to set up,
a flash yeah you know off off camera flash and stuff like that i don't i don't
(32:20):
i have used it in the past i i've used it i've experimented with it but i'm
not i'm not very technical.
Funny enough leave that to the nerds like me that's so i just want to keep everything
super simple yeah yeah there's a there's an important lesson in that though
really as well isn't there if you over complicate things you're creating more
(32:43):
things that could go wrong so yeah i
think it is a good idea to keep things simple but if
people are perhaps they've been going for
a few months trying to set themselves up as a wedding photographer and
thinking hmm i'm not really there yet do i
carry on do i do i give up would you
say there's a certain amount of time that you actually need to get
(33:04):
established to be realistic about it because weddings
are often planned in advance so if someone's
starting out within six months should they really realistically think
that they would have their business up and running it's a
good question i'm just reflecting on all
the photographers i've helped to date many of
them are transitioning from other areas of photography into wedding photography
(33:28):
and they're just kind of like starting out some have been in it for 15 years
but haven't quite had the confidence to make a full go at it some of them are
interested in and dipping their toe in,
but like you say, they're a little bit unsure about how to move forward.
I think you have to really ask yourself the question, is it your passion?
(33:52):
Do you want to follow this industry? Do you want to take on this genre of photography?
If the answer is yes, then you'll give it your best gun. Nothing was built in
a day. You have to give it time.
Time is about structuring your foundations, your business, so you can start to draw in your clients.
(34:16):
And when you start drawing in your clients and you see a steady flow of work
coming in, then that'll be incredibly, incredibly rewarding.
So I think don't, you know, don't be scared of it.
And, you know, it's really easy for us to walk away when things become challenging
and think, oh, it's not working. I've only been in it for six months or,
(34:37):
you know, I haven't got 20 weddings yet.
So I'm going to give up and I'm going to walk away.
If that's your mindset and that's your drive, then you're going to miss out
on having a very enjoyable lifestyle business.
And a very interesting career that you can take and travel with.
(34:57):
You can go all over the world. You can win wonderful awards.
Hint, hint, hint. nice big shiny things yes.
Very interesting courage yeah so another thing
which sometimes seems to hold people back and i know
you've spoken about this at the society photographers convention and that before
(35:20):
but it is the issue of confidence and in particular this sort of imposter syndrome
so people might think okay i think i think i can do this and then they start
to see what's going on around and they They start to question whether their
work is going to be good enough.
And obviously we all need to improve and we all work on what we do.
But at some point for some people, there seems to be this, even when they are
(35:43):
good enough, they are producing good work that for whatever reason,
they feel like an imposter.
They feel like they don't belong, that they haven't earned their seat at the table.
Are you still finding with your mentees that that's something that holds people back? Yeah.
Yeah, very much so. But I think it's also good to know that this happens across every industry.
(36:05):
This is a psychological condition that stems from being, and it comes in waves, right?
So it's a psychological condition that comes in waves depending on where we
are on our journey, where we are in our careers.
You can be incredibly successful at the top end of the table,
(36:29):
but you may still be having these feelings, as you rightly say, I suppose.
I think it's important to lean into imposter syndrome.
What do you mean by that? I think it's important to understand why you're feeling
that you're not good enough when everyone else around you says you are.
(36:50):
I think it's important to take time to reflect on the work that you are creating to get a mentor,
to share your work with somebody who has been there, done it,
and is able to give something back.
Leaning into imposter syndrome is basically a way of not running away from fear.
(37:19):
So if we kind of go back to and understand a bit of the human psyche,
you know, we are driven, we're emotionally driven, right? We're emotionally
charged, some more than others.
But our survival skills, the way that we survive and have survived over millennia
is basically fight, flight, or freeze.
(37:43):
And I think there's another element in there, but I can't remember right now what it is.
But that's basically imposter syndrome.
So when you look at imposter syndrome and say, this is in my opinion,
okay, I haven't studied this.
I am not a psychologist. You're an experience of how it affects people anyway, yeah.
(38:09):
These are literally my own experiences. And I liken it to fight,
flight, or freeze, of which I've been through all three of those emotions.
And I liken imposter syndrome to that as well.
So when I'm feeling out of depth, which is often maybe once a week,
you know, every time I go to the convention,
(38:32):
when we're sat amongst our peers who are all incredible photographers and business
people in their own right, you do tend to feel a little bit like,
oh, you know, what am I doing here? I feel a little bit fraudulent.
But you have to remember your successes. You have to remember where you've been.
You have to remember the journey that you've been on and
(38:54):
quite often you have no idea what everyone
else is feeling or thinking you just
you just don't there's it's impossible for us to know
that so we can only really go on how we feel and if
those feelings of i'm not good enough start to
bubble up lean into it because basically what
what your nervous system is telling you your it
(39:15):
is your nervous system it's telling you to to protect yourself
so run yeah if you're it's
feeling like i don't know what to do here i feel threatened so
yeah it's that kind of instinctive response and i think what a lot of people
don't realize is that it doesn't necessarily go away you know you can you can
win awards you can get a fellowship you can be a photographer for many years
(39:38):
you can run a successful business but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be
feeling super confident and fine about everything all the time.
A lot of people don't realize that the person standing on stage, receiving an award,
might actually be thinking, I don't deserve this. I shouldn't be here.
You know, we don't know. Well, there's a funny story. There's a funny story
(40:00):
with that, incidentally.
So it's exactly what happened to me literally at the beginning of this year.
So I had decided that I was going to put my big girl pants on and enter into
the Icon Awards in Vegas, right? Right.
So once I got my fellowship with Atrophy, I was very shy and I didn't really shout about it.
(40:29):
And I kind of like, I love the work. The work is beautiful and it's stunning
and it has picked up awards.
And obviously it gave me my fellowship, but I didn't really run with it at the time for many reasons.
But the Icon Awards had come up.
Also, it kind of coincided with the beginnings of COVID incidentally. incidentally
so those two big sort of things happened at
(40:51):
once so i put like the big girl pants on
and i thought well i'm just gonna go for it see what happens so anyway so
i put a couple in and one image did well
obviously atrophy and one image didn't do
so well which was one of my wedding pieces which was
fine okay the wedding piece had already won an
award at the convention so it's quite interesting to see that
(41:11):
that didn't make the cut anyhow so
i got a lovely message to say congratulations you know
you made it to the finals i was
like what i knew it
did well but i didn't realize it did that well so i was like oh
my god for me i had
won that was great anyway so
(41:33):
i i got it printed by the print foundry
thank you very much ronaldo was a great help when
we chose beautiful paper and we really kind of
made sure that the presentation quality was you
know top end and I
sent it off to Vegas and I didn't think any more of it and
then January came or was it February February March
(41:55):
I can't remember and I wanted to go to Vegas but I couldn't for various personal
reasons I didn't make it out there and I probably just as well because boy I
would have felt like an imposter I can tell you that much I would have been.
So overwhelmed I would have just wanted to run it to the corner and hide.
Anyway, I don't like doing that.
(42:18):
So I was watching the ceremony on kick and, you know, all the awards and stuff.
And then it was the portrait division.
And by this point, I don't know what time it was. It must have been really early
in the morning. I was fast asleep.
I'd gone to bed. But I really didn't think anything of it.
To me, I'd won. My image had made it into the finals. So that was that.
(42:40):
Yeah, you'd achieved what you could hope for, really, in many ways. Yeah.
I achieved the goal. I achieved the goal. In the back of my mind,
I had said, wouldn't it be lovely to win Vegas?
But never in my wildest dreams did I think I would win the category winner.
And I woke up to a message saying, congratulations.
(43:02):
I was like, what have I done? What have I done now?
And then another one said, oh, your image was beautiful.
And I was like, okay, I must have come third. That's incredible.
Incredible and then throughout the morning all of these
and i was like what the hell has happened so i jumped on to watch
the replay and somebody had actually
(43:25):
sent me i don't know who this photographer was actually i i i don't know who
she i've never met her but she follows me on facebook and she saw my image come
up on the big screen in in vegas and it
had a thirst to buy it and she She photographed it and she sent it to me.
And I was just like, no, this is wrong. This is not right. What's happened?
(43:51):
And anyway, so I jumped on and I watched it and I watched it about four times. It was amazing.
I just couldn't believe it. And I was delighted to win that category for boudoir and fine art.
And, oh, you know, to see Atrophy be a success in a place like that was just
absolutely, absolutely wonderful. But massive imposter syndrome.
(44:14):
It's funny because you said, oh, I must have come third, not,
oh, I wonder where I've placed.
It's like, oh, if I've done really well, I must have come at the bottom end of what really well is.
Yeah, that says a lot, right? Even there.
So it's something
that a lot of us just find even when
(44:36):
that sort of thing happens it doesn't it might go away
for a day or two or something once it's sunk in you might think
oh you know feel a bit good about what you do but it
doesn't necessarily go away for good and it's something
that along with working on the business and working on our
photography techniques sometimes we just we have to
keep working on our mindset as well yeah you do and this is why it's important
(44:57):
court and not to run away incidentally so because it's kicking in our flight
mode if we run away from everything we won't grow as people we will never see
what is on the other side of the fence,
Now, life may not be greener, but it could be.
So, you know, I mean, everything's a risk, everything's a gamble.
(45:20):
So if you're going to nip over the other side of the fence, make sure it's the
right fence you're nipping over.
But that's the first advice I can give.
But yeah, don't run away from it.
You will be surprised what joy and wonderments will be there waiting for you, really.
(45:43):
It's very very difficult it's not easy it's not
easy and I've gone through last year was a very difficult year
and I spent the whole year just in a place of resistance.
And fear and you know I
was very very challenged and I I had
a dream I had a passion and I I this
this this psychology the the mindset was was
(46:04):
holding me back I don't I don't know what it was
that cleared it but something cleared it the energy changed and
and here i am with you yeah proof that you can
get through it yeah you can so lean into it
guys lean into it so as
um as somebody who's involved in in training others
how do you continue to develop yourself
(46:25):
what types of input do you look for
is it for your business or is it for your photography how do
you how do you keep growing yourself to business
basically so i've invested into many
business mentors over the last
18 months to really get an understanding of what
(46:45):
business is and how we show up
in business today what how to generate conversations
you know understanding figures understanding what
we need to do and all of that knowledge that I've learned over the last 18 months
married with all of the knowledge and experience I've gained over the last 15
(47:06):
years more so to put into a program which is very comprehensive and very all-rounded.
I can pass on all of that experience to my own mentees.
And I think it's really important to constantly challenge yourself.
Self so business changes all
the time people change all the time the
(47:28):
way that we need to show up we have to change we have
to evolve and you can't evolve without constant learning
yeah totally agree yeah so do you have goals then for yourself are you somebody
who likes to set goals or within a particular time of something you want to
achieve you somebody who works by that kind of in five years time I want to
(47:49):
be here or is that something that sits with your personality?
Yes and no. No, because I'm a creative.
So, you know, to hold myself accountable and be disciplined is a challenge as
it is for most creatives.
I do have a goal for the next five years. I do see my business growing and scaling.
(48:16):
I want to reach as many photographers as I can to help them be successful and grow.
I always want to be with my
camera I always want to be photographing weddings
I always want to be photographing fine art
and these are my goals and these these are my my
my personal personal challenges as
(48:37):
well I think it's important to say that
time is a commodity and time
goes but you won't get it back okay so
what you do with your time is an investment
and it's important to keep moving yourself forward so.
Where setting goals can be important it can
(48:57):
also be overwhelming and it can also be
challenging but if we do little things every day
to get where we need to be then those
goals and the overwhelm will slowly slowly
wash away that's the that's the
first thing i'd say and it's breaking it down into manageable
chunks isn't it i think when you see
(49:19):
when you see a big goal it can
look so far off but if you then break
that down just into some slightly smaller pieces and take
each one of those pieces and break that down into
smaller steps you can you can tick off little
things every day or every other day and said oh i've done this i've
done that and before you know it you're actually working towards
(49:39):
having one of those bigger pieces is complete and you
know rather than just looking at the big view all
the time that can be off pushing in some ways it can
be and i think that for me where i had seen the vision of having a mentoring
business the wedding photography mentor the the end result of that the bigger
(50:00):
picture of that was so overwhelming i didn't actually know where to start and
by breaking it down into kind
of really small pieces and just getting the foundations laid.
Even though I wasn't generating an income from it at that time,
I was still taking small steps to be able to get myself into a position where
(50:25):
I could start taking people on board the program.
And now people are on board the program, it's proof of concept.
And it means it's viable. and to see my mentees actually come in and succeed
and take action and to drive and to thrive and to be passionate and to be happy
and to feel confident within themselves there is nothing better and each week we have a call.
(50:52):
Each week there is a success story. Each week there is a story of,
oh, I haven't quite done that and I felt a little bit of fear or a little bit of resistance.
But we are all there in a community to help pull that person along.
So for me to actually take those small steps and to get to a place where I've
hit goal one, which is actually having some mentees in the first place to pass on all this knowledge.
(51:16):
It's just amazing. yeah so so
yeah if somebody um if somebody's wondering
well what what sort of thing might be an indication to them
that they could benefit from having a mentor such as yourself are there
sort of red flags that they might be in their business or in their work that
you might think well hold on if you're feeling like that then come and talk
(51:37):
to me what sort of things do you think would would be triggers then that would
suggest people should talk to you about confidence Unconfidence is one.
So if you're feeling unconfident and you're not quite sure how you're showing
up in your own business, that could be a challenge.
That could be your overwhelm. It could be that social media is overwhelming for you.
(52:00):
Website design is overwhelming for you.
Having a brand and actually positioning that brand in the marketplace could be overwhelming.
All of these things can be our initial challenges. As creators, we're driven by ego.
And sometimes, you know, our egos, we can pick up a camera and we can take a
(52:24):
photo and our ego will tell us that that's a good picture and we're not worried about it.
Okay, so there are two sides of the business.
There is one where you will have a person who, everyone, we all love photography, you know.
But if you're somebody who is strong in business, but perhaps your photography
(52:45):
isn't as good as what you want it, your red flag would be, I'm getting the money
in, I'm doing all right as a photographer,
but I can't push myself to win an award.
I can't push myself to get qualification.
There is an element of me thinking, oh, I'm not really that good,
but it's paying the bill, so I don't care. So, if you're a photographer and
(53:09):
you're sitting in that camp, that's great, brilliant.
If you want to take your photography to the next level and not be average, be exceptional,
charge more for your wedding photography, which means you don't have to shoot as much.
(53:30):
But you can still generate the same amount of income, but your photography is
just, you know, up a notch.
Therefore, you know, you value it more.
You can, you know, that's a driver, if that makes sense.
And then on the other side, you've got the creative who's really bad at business,
but will take a photo and they'll look at the photo and it'll be a fantastic photo.
(53:51):
It'll be an award winning photo and they'll go, oh, I don't like my photography.
And then you go okay well let's let's
get things in place here let's be realistic your photography
is great so let's worry about the photography once you've
picked up business let's get the business foundations in place
let's get these bookings coming through let's.
(54:12):
Get you shooting more so you can become more confident so they're
very much there are very much two personas that
i can help with the with the mentoring program i hope
i answered your question i feel like i went off on a on a tangent and
where could they where should they go if they want to find out
more about what's on offer oh wait so
they can go to the website the wedding photography mentor there's there's
(54:33):
a website there which has a little video about
the program has everything there that we what
we offer and the benefit it is to the person who wants
to come on board and then there's the social feeds
that you can find me on also the wedding photography mentor it's
a subscription based so currently we're pricing it
at 17 pounds per month it's still very
(54:56):
much in alpha but we're moving towards beta stage
soon so the price will be going up until
we officially launch and we've got all our ducks in a
row but at the moment we're in alpha stage and basically what that means is
i'm taking on mentees i'm coaching i'm training but i'm also building the business
(55:16):
as well so So we're kind of holding each other's hands to get this to a place
of great success. It's very, very exciting.
Yeah, sounds exciting. Yeah. Wish you all the best with that.
And thank you very much for coming on to the podcast to share some of these things with us.
Yeah, no problem. It's been a joy. Thank you very much.
Thank you, everybody, for listening. Get connected, trained,
(55:39):
supported and qualified with the Society of Photographers.
Sponsors of the Focused Professional Podcast.
Music.
Welcome to the Focused Professional Podcast, sponsored by the Society of Photographers.
I'm your host Joe Lenton and this is Episode 17.
Music.
(00:33):
Welcome to the Focused Professional Podcast. Today our guest is a well-known
wedding photographer and also the wedding photography mentor and also another award winner.
It's Fiona Elizabeth. Hello, Fiona.
Hello, Joe. Thank you for inviting me on. It's a pleasure. It's great to be
able to have you on the podcast.
So you're well-known for your weddings and for also mentoring other wedding
(00:57):
photographers. So what was it that attracted you to weddings as your main genre
to shoot professionally?
Okay, so that's a really interesting question because it wasn't really where
my heart was when I first started.
So when I got married and had children,
I went back to college to study photography because I had this dream and passion
(01:18):
to be an artist and create art and sell it down in a nice little gallery in Brighton.
And that was my dream and that was my passion but on that journey
to get to that dream the the lecturer at
the college was wedding photographer and he
needed he needed a second shooter and asked if i would go out with him so the
(01:40):
first wedding i did with him i was like this is just not for me you need a thick
skin to play this game and i i i'm quite i'm quite shy at heart really and I
didn't I kind of felt very exposed,
let's put it that way so anyway I went away and I started editing the photos and I thought actually I.
(02:01):
Pictures are pretty okay they're not too bad and
he invited me out again and I was
really watching how he managed the crowd and
how he managed his couples to create outstanding work and he really is an absolutely
fantastic photographer and friend he really is I really enjoy I really enjoy
his company as much as I do his work it's it's incredible and so he really influenced
(02:25):
me and I I thought, why not? Let's give it a go.
And what I really loved about it was to be as creative as I possibly could in
that environment, to have the ordinary,
and I know it sounds like a little bit of a cliche, but to take the ordinary
and make something quite spectacular out of it. I found that I enjoyed that challenge.
(02:45):
So, yeah, that's it. So the rest was history, really. That's how I started in the game.
Right so you've got used to herding cats now then have you yeah more or less yeah drunk.
Is because that often seems to be one of
the key things to wedding photography although of
(03:06):
course there are different styles there are those who like to be a bit more
documentary and hide in the background those who like to take over a bit more
but it's a lot more than just photography skills isn't it how did you learn
from him then about how to deal with with people what could you observe that
you could then use yourself?
I didn't learn that from him as such, but I realized that I was very good at
(03:32):
being able to read body language.
I was very good at being able to read people, read a room.
I can walk into a room and I can sense the atmosphere strangely,
which means that I become more observant of the people who are in there.
(03:54):
So in terms of being able to manage the crowd and manage people,
I think it just came naturally.
And as my skin got thicker and as I became less sensitive to people turning
their backs on me when I held up the camera or making stupid comments,
(04:17):
sometimes quite crude comments, then I was able just to kind of get into my
flow and I thoroughly enjoyed it even more. The game.
You find the awkward person who doesn't want their photo taken and you make
a plan for how you're going to get them at some point.
(04:38):
Yes. yes so you've developed
your own style of wedding photography over
the time that you've been doing it could you describe what your signature
style is yeah i would say that it comes
from a place of timeless classical and quite elegant really i always want to
create photography that is definitely timeless but my couples can feel really
(05:03):
elegant in their pictures and and feel really proud of how they look on wedding day.
That's my main objective when I'm photographing my couples because they spend
so much money on their clothes, their garments, their dresses,
their veils, their shoes.
And I think it's just such a very beautiful way to capture the,
(05:27):
striking photography which they'll be able to look back at and go yeah i really
remember i really remember how i looked and i remember how i felt but then i
mix that with the the and the documentary and the you know they almost like a b-roll if you want.
Yeah so you've developed a few
different styles and different genres really so you did
(05:50):
a lot of the wedding photography and then perhaps people
might be surprised that actually your fellowship rather than it being in weddings
you chose to do like a location fine art
nude style what was it that made you go that
direction rather than thinking about doing a
fellowship in weddings for example well actually that
was my natural path to take fellowship in weddings and i was very fortunate
(06:14):
to have achieved my associates in wedding photography and i i was just i was
on this I was on this path to get my fellowship and then something happened and I hit a glass,
a creative glass ceiling and I felt that I couldn't push through it.
There was this ceiling and I couldn't smash through it.
(06:35):
And actually what I noticed was my photography, rather than getting better,
was actually getting worse.
And I just couldn't quite understand why that was happening.
And I think generally I was putting too much pressure on myself.
So I kind of took a step back and I thought well I really need to kind of discover
who I am as a photographer you know there's more to me than creating wedding
(06:57):
photography as much as I love it and as much as I strive to create the very
best I can so I went on a journey of self-discovery actually.
And you might not know this Joe but it first took me to the Calais camping in
in oh sorry the jungle Camp in Calais.
So I started documenting and created a photographic essay of life in this camp,
(07:22):
which was, it was horrendous. It was horrendous. And I feel very passionate about,
what's happening in the world today in terms of the migrants and how people
are suffering. But that's for another day.
If you're somebody who sort of feels, reads the room and feels the emotions
when you go in, going somewhere like that must have been really intense then. It was really hardcore.
(07:45):
And one story sticks in my mind.
Unfortunately, I didn't have the privilege of photographing this guy.
He didn't want me to photograph him. but i had
seen him my journey to the calais was
across two weekends and the first weekend
i i came across this guy and he was full of hope and
(08:06):
he was full of passion i can't remember the i think he was from afghan i can't
quite remember but he was full of hope and he was full of passion and his His
aim was to get to family who had re-established themselves in the States.
(08:26):
That was his drive. And he was a really great guy, really interesting,
and I really kind of warned to him.
Anyway, my time at that weekend came to an end, and I went back the following
weekend, and I saw him again.
And he was a shell of himself. and
they what happened within those
(08:49):
five days when i wasn't there was horrendous so
the french had come in and actually destroyed the
camp so on my second trip the smell of burning rubber and the the town itself
so they'd actually created a high street black market high street where they
had cafes they had they were restaurants they were selling food and clothes
(09:12):
and it was a it was a city in itself. It really was.
There were churches, there were mosques,
there were schools for kids to be educated, all in this shantytown.
Obviously, the French had gone in and destroyed it.
Incidentally, Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time and on my first visit
(09:33):
she was calling for the migrants to come over, younger migrants,
to the kids basically, to come over to the UK and get themselves out of that destitute of a place.
Anyway, this guy had a terrible experience and he had been forced to stand outside
a tent while this monster of a man had gone in and raped a woman.
(09:55):
Goodness me, that's quite something.
Were you able to have this published at all so that you could share what you'd
experienced, share your story with others?
Because obviously for most of us, this is so far outside of our everyday experience.
Sorry, I did produce a book called London Calling.
(10:17):
I wrote a photographic essay about the experience, but it's a very sensitive
book and I haven't done anything with it.
Maybe there'll be a time in the future I'm waiting
for that right time but it was a it was a horrendous thing
to go through but so so
that actually so strangely enough that experience then
(10:37):
led me to go to a more interesting place so when I came back and I had produced
this body of work I kind of felt like I had a passion of looking at what was
happening politically and I wanted to use my photography as a way to tell a story in that sense.
And there was a lot going on in the paper at the time about the housing crisis.
(11:04):
So not only were we dealing with all of migrants coming over in small boats,
but we were also dealing with our own economic problems and the housing crisis was a big one.
And I kind of felt very drawn to the story. And when I started delving emotionally
into the politics of it, I...
(11:27):
It's going to sound a bit strange, but I couldn't understand why there were so many.
I mean, obviously, I do understand, right? But at the same time,
I was questioning. There are so many derelict buildings up and down the country.
They're listed. They can't be knocked down. They can't be reused.
They're just there and they're just left to rot. and it
(11:47):
was really kind of threw up a question you
know why we could we could you
know put people in these we could redo them
we can you know keep some of the structure you know
surely something with these places and
and then and then i and then i kind
of moved on to feeling well once upon
(12:08):
a time they would have been full of love and family
and that's all
gone and i i likened that
to lost souls lost spirits you
know the loss of humanity within these buildings and
so me being me i decided
(12:28):
to embark on a new adventure and
a new journey and i had six fantastic
models who came on board the concept and
we did actually and i don't recommend this to anyone who's listening
so please do not do this we we did actually
work inside derelict buildings we did we did one shoot two shoots in a derelict
(12:51):
building but every time we went back to the building it was getting more and
more dilapidated to the point where it became too dangerous so i searched for
a new venue, a new location.
But just thought, do you know what?
This isn't safe for me, let alone these incredible women.
So, I hired locations in London.
(13:13):
There's an old church in Peckham and there's a safe house. And so,
although they weren't derelict, they had the impression that they were.
It was much safer and the girls were much happier.
And yeah, a short project called Atrophy.
The girls were covered in white clay,
So white face paint, sorry, and then sun-as-earth clay.
(13:33):
So they resembled the sort of cracking of the plaster work and the paper falling off.
And, yeah, they worked incredibly hard as I directed them through the process.
Yeah, it's quite a project, that sort of thing.
It sounds to me like the common thread really is that you're somebody who's
(13:55):
very much inspired by and wanting to tell stories.
Stories so your your wedding photography then also
your documentary photography but then also this this fine
art new panel it all seems to be very story motivated
to me looking at that is is that something that really connects
with you then people's stories yeah definitely i
think i'm quite connected to people anyway generally but i
(14:18):
do think that every time we pick up our camera there is a story
to be told even if it's you know
even if you're photographing a guitar or a watch even a
product photographer can tell a story yes but but
do you know what i mean we are storytellers you
know we're visionaries and we're and we're storytellers and
you know we have you know a unique ability to
(14:42):
be able to capture something which actually
comes from within us within us as a person so
we all have a our own you know usb if
you like but we can translate that into into
beautiful storytelling images so yeah
very much so yeah so you talk about translating
out from what's at your heart as a person i
(15:03):
mean very interested in what motivates people sometimes it's particular values
so sometimes it's like ethically driven like you wanting to tell the story of
the of the uh the migrants and so on i wonder what what is it that you would.
Say is at the heart of what you do that sort of gets you out of bed what's your
why what's your motivation.
Motivation oh we're not
(15:30):
allowed to swear are we those little no they're great no they they yeah my family
obviously motivates me more than anything but you know other than that i'm a
very passionate very nurturing person and to be able to put something back and help people to
achieve their own goals is a massive driver for me because I didn't have that growing up.
(15:56):
So as a creative growing up in a family that was driven by data and science,
it was very difficult to...
Fit into that sort
of space and as much as i tried it never
worked for me it just wasn't going to work so to be
in a position where i've worked hard to get
(16:17):
to where i am today in terms of my fellowship and my awards to be able to then
take all of that knowledge and experience and package it up to help others is
is a real it's a real passion it's a real dream of mine so that presumably is
why you decided to set up the wedding photography mentor,
it is indeed yes see those opportunities
(16:38):
to give back to share your experiences with people
and to to be for them I guess something perhaps that
you didn't have so much yourself yeah very
much so yeah to help guide them through being a
creative being creative is not an easy I mean
it can be some people it just comes naturally and you
know but others struggle i mean we because we are very sensitive to our environment
(17:02):
sometimes we can really struggle with that and also we can really struggle in
business as well structure is never
really great we like to be free and adventurous yeah we like to create.
So to give it to create a place where
that is fundamentally the core of the program to create a place where it's safe
(17:27):
for creatives to come and learn business acumen as well as excelling creatively
has been has has been a real i can't i can't put it into words i just,
it's a driver it's i you know that i wake
up in the morning and i feel excited about creating
this space for people to to come to learn to thrive so you sometimes find with
(17:53):
with business when we're talking about the photography industry there are people
who on the one hand are almost well i'll do anything that brings the money in
and it's very much about profit is is central to everything that they do.
And then there are others for whom their style, how they are as an artist,
is much more central to what they do.
(18:13):
Where do you sit along that sort of spectrum there?
And do you think it's possible to make a living wherever you are along there?
Or do you have to be a little bit more hard-nosed business to make it work?
Well, do you know what? We can be starving artists, no problem at all.
But I think what I've learned is that you need to have the two running side by side.
(18:36):
You have to embrace the business and there is a resilience.
There is a resistance to embracing business because people don't understand it.
And it's not really what turns us on. You know, we're creatives and so we like
spending time and crafting and creating and that's all very well and good.
(19:00):
But unfortunately, it won't keep the lights on.
And so it comes to a point where you have to embrace the business side of things
to be able to realize that you need to be able to fund and support your family.
And if life has taught me anything, it is to embrace both from the get-go.
(19:22):
Because the more you set up the foundations of your business at the starting
point, the more you can enjoy being the creative.
If you don't have the business foundations in place or you don't know how much
you really need to earn just to keep the lights on.
You're fighting a losing battle because you get kind of lost wanting to be the
(19:50):
creative side of things and that's where your heart is and that's where your passion is.
But you can't do that if you haven't got the money to fund it.
No, no. no so so the two the two
the two are very much in sync with
each other and the more you
know i kind of like to say to my mentees we're
(20:10):
creative right so let's be creative in business there's nothing wrong with reframing
it and and and don't be scared of it embrace the challenge embrace the creative
challenge of business and it becomes a bit of a game and you don't have to lose
yourself in it totally but if you ignore it you're never going to move forward.
(20:31):
You have to be able to, you've got to know your figures. You need to know your marketing message.
You need to understand your avatar. You need to know who you're talking to,
where those people hang out.
They don't always hang out on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn.
In you know sometimes your ideal market market
your ideal client might not care for any of that
(20:53):
at all you know so where where then are
you going to find them and by understanding all
of these bits and pieces to the puzzle and getting
the foundations laid and in place then you
can start reaping the benefits of money coming in through doing
what you love which is shooting and creating outstanding photography and
then you can even go off on another tangent and
(21:17):
go right well do you know what it's the weekend i'm going to go
and create something outstandingly beautiful i'm going to do
something reckless and dangerous and photograph it yeah
i don't think that trying
to run a photography business has to kill the fun of
it i think yes you need processes in
place marketplace to make things run smoothly you need
(21:38):
to understand is there a market for what you
offer if so where is that market and so on
because otherwise you're just producing something with no idea whether it'll
even sell so you need you need to understand those things i think what people
who are in of the creative mindset need to be a little bit careful of is that
perhaps that they don't fall out of love with the creative pursuit that got
(22:00):
them going in the first place as they start to put themselves in the business boxes.
Yes, I agree 100%. And do you know what?
I think that social media has got a lot to answer for there because we all feel
that social media is a place for us to draw and find leads and to attract our clients.
And then we get bogged down in the work that we have to do to even show up on social media,
(22:28):
post once a day, post every other day, find something to talk about every day, do a video, be present.
And then you kind of think, okay, well, if all your efforts are tied into one
channel of marketing, you're on a losing game. Yeah.
And you're destroying your soul because the algorithms, the competition,
(22:54):
the saturation of every industry is just too much for somebody to break.
It's too much for somebody to break. You have to understand that there are multiple
channels of marketing, both offline and online, and to choose which one you really want to go down.
(23:15):
Having spoken to a lot of photographers this year, everybody puts their eggs
in one basket and everyone's putting their eggs into the social media basket.
And it's just not how to run business.
It will kill you. It will kill the business. I wonder whether there are some
genres where it works better than others, but certainly from my perspective
(23:38):
with commercial work, with product work,
that is not where my clients are coming from and elements of what I do with
touring people and so on.
On, yeah, you're making more of a personal connection, but you need to understand
where your clients are going to be.
Are they somebody who's going to be searching on Google for it?
In which case, should you be putting your effort and your time,
(24:00):
your money into SEO and a good website?
Or are they somebody who is on LinkedIn every evening?
Is your audience really going to be someone who likes to watch 10 minutes of
TikTok videos every day?
But you can feel as though there are all these channels, you've got to do them all.
But yet sometimes people forget old media, don't you think? So what by old media,
(24:23):
I mean printed stuff, you know, real things you can hold in your hand.
Okay, so it's essential. So everyone who comes onto my programme will go through the process of,
ensuring that their websites are absolutely up
to scratch in terms of they have their branding sorted
they have their their presence sorted and
(24:45):
they are positioning they are beginning to position themselves as an authority
within a very crowded market once they get that into a place of near finished
or they're happy we then talk about printed material because you cannot have
a wedding photography business without a brochure,
without a printed portfolio,
(25:06):
without a stock of wedding albums because when you start to actually do offline
marketing, and that is talking to a wedding planner, that's talking to the bridal
shops, that's talking to events planners, your.
Venues, you need to have this material in your hand so when you go and see them,
you're actually armed and you're making
(25:29):
a community what the the driver of social
media is nothing more than having
a conversation it's nothing more than having
a conversation it is an area where you
almost have proof of life yes i do exist yes
i am real yes i am a photographer this is the
work i create do you like it i'm glad you like it
(25:50):
let's start having a conversation this is
a conversation starter but to actually be
able to draw business in and to create conversations
which will convert into monetary conversions
they're face-to-face communications it's
a very different dynamic isn't it when you get face-to-face with
(26:12):
someone it totally transforms the the
conversation versus just texting backwards
and forwards on an app or something like that you connect
in a in a totally different way and i
think that there is that danger that people get lured
into spending more and more time on social media and
thinking well why is it not working and then people will say to them oh well
(26:35):
you're not posting enough so they post more and they get on it seems to be a
beast that just wants an endless supply of food it doesn't necessarily and then
the supply and then End of supply of food. You've got it quite right. Absolutely.
But the way to play social media is to be quite smart with it as well and to
understand that this end of supply of food needs to be fed and how to feed it,
(27:01):
it has to be fed quickly in a sense that you have to get your message out there quickly.
You've got 60 seconds to turn somebody on.
You need to be able to
use language more than just
an image because it's it's so oversaturated with images to actually get someone
(27:23):
to stop and start to read is the challenge and when they start to read they
have to be totally engaged to actually get to the end of the post.
And that structure, when we start looking at social media in that way and that
structure of communication,
then it just becomes even more exciting because this is when,
(27:47):
as creatives, we can go, right, okay, let's tackle this.
Yeah yeah definitely and i
think when you look at advertising campaigns whether
that's the sort of adverts you see in breaks in
tv programs or whether it's adverts you see printed in magazines they are the
sort of thing that most of us just flick past very very quickly but when you're
(28:08):
starting to market your own business they're well worth learning from because
they've been they've been doing it for decades many of these big businesses
they know how to grab attention
quickly and make sure that you absorb everything that's in there.
And they also know that they don't have to speak to everybody.
They speak to their target market with it. So I encourage people to have a look
(28:32):
actually at adverts sometimes.
I know they can be a bit naff, they can be a bit silly, but the point is,
how are they getting your attention?
Not necessarily exactly what they're saying, but how are they doing this?
And that's something I think we can then reapply for
ourselves do you know what there are two adverts that really
come to mind right do you remember the bt advert where the
(28:53):
poor guy was climbing over snowdonia he was
trying to he was trying to reach somebody and it was pelting down with rain
was that british gas i don't know but and then and then there was the guinness
ad with the white oh yes coming out all the waves with the white horses now
these are the ads that if anybody wants to learn about marketing advertising
(29:14):
advertising, messaging,
then go back to the golden era of advertising because there you will have outstanding storytelling.
Today, I don't really watch too much TV today.
Everything's box sets and trash telly. But back in the day, those adverts were phenomenal.
(29:36):
And when I was working in TV, they were very close to my heart.
You know to live my life again i would love to be a director of adverts at that
time but yeah so there's some advice go and have a look at old commercials from the 80s yeah.
They're often things where the latest special effects the latest research into
(30:00):
how to communicate with people are used first they're often where if you take
your sort of pounds per minute budget on a program,
adverts are often a lot higher than a TV program in what they're spending on creating it.
So the production value is really high. It's something polished.
But yet so often we think, well, if I just stick some quick selfie up and bung
(30:23):
a couple of lines of text under it, then I'm being genuine. People know who I am.
People will like me, and if they like me, they'll buy off me.
Look at those adverts. Not quite so simple, is it?
It's not quite so simple, no. But maybe not so much look at the visual aspect
because the visual aspect is obviously striking and we can't be filmmakers unless
(30:46):
you're a videographer and then sure,
go eat heart out, special effects, nothing to stop you.
But it's the script you want to be listening to.
It's actually the language and how they structure that storytelling script to
get you to take action after the advert and back in the day incidentally they
weren't 60 seconds i think they were probably more like 30 seconds,
(31:11):
yeah they were very very short yeah you've got
very little time to get people's attention and to
to try and hold it so whatever industry you're
in it's it is a battle so i mean this
is this is is one skill then to some extent that
you need to be a modern wedding photographer i mean
what else would you say are the key skills the key things that you need in your
(31:33):
armory if you're going to be a wedding photographer today there are so many
choices okay so there are many there are so many choices there are so many styles
and you can play around with lots of different things but the strongest,
armour you can have when photographing a wedding is knowing light without a shadow of a doubt.
(31:58):
But you know I mastered natural and ambient light for one reason and one reason only I work on my own,
so I don't have the I don't have the time during a wedding to set up,
a flash yeah you know off off camera flash and stuff like that i don't i don't
(32:20):
i have used it in the past i i've used it i've experimented with it but i'm
not i'm not very technical.
Funny enough leave that to the nerds like me that's so i just want to keep everything
super simple yeah yeah there's a there's an important lesson in that though
really as well isn't there if you over complicate things you're creating more
(32:43):
things that could go wrong so yeah i
think it is a good idea to keep things simple but if
people are perhaps they've been going for
a few months trying to set themselves up as a wedding photographer and
thinking hmm i'm not really there yet do i
carry on do i do i give up would you
say there's a certain amount of time that you actually need to get
(33:04):
established to be realistic about it because weddings
are often planned in advance so if someone's
starting out within six months should they really realistically think
that they would have their business up and running it's a
good question i'm just reflecting on all
the photographers i've helped to date many of
them are transitioning from other areas of photography into wedding photography
(33:28):
and they're just kind of like starting out some have been in it for 15 years
but haven't quite had the confidence to make a full go at it some of them are
interested in and dipping their toe in,
but like you say, they're a little bit unsure about how to move forward.
I think you have to really ask yourself the question, is it your passion?
(33:52):
Do you want to follow this industry? Do you want to take on this genre of photography?
If the answer is yes, then you'll give it your best gun. Nothing was built in
a day. You have to give it time.
Time is about structuring your foundations, your business, so you can start to draw in your clients.
(34:16):
And when you start drawing in your clients and you see a steady flow of work
coming in, then that'll be incredibly, incredibly rewarding.
So I think don't, you know, don't be scared of it.
And, you know, it's really easy for us to walk away when things become challenging
and think, oh, it's not working. I've only been in it for six months or,
(34:37):
you know, I haven't got 20 weddings yet.
So I'm going to give up and I'm going to walk away.
If that's your mindset and that's your drive, then you're going to miss out
on having a very enjoyable lifestyle business.
And a very interesting career that you can take and travel with.
(34:57):
You can go all over the world. You can win wonderful awards.
Hint, hint, hint. nice big shiny things yes.
Very interesting courage yeah so another thing
which sometimes seems to hold people back and i know
you've spoken about this at the society photographers convention and that before
(35:20):
but it is the issue of confidence and in particular this sort of imposter syndrome
so people might think okay i think i think i can do this and then they start
to see what's going on around and they They start to question whether their
work is going to be good enough.
And obviously we all need to improve and we all work on what we do.
But at some point for some people, there seems to be this, even when they are
(35:43):
good enough, they are producing good work that for whatever reason,
they feel like an imposter.
They feel like they don't belong, that they haven't earned their seat at the table.
Are you still finding with your mentees that that's something that holds people back? Yeah.
Yeah, very much so. But I think it's also good to know that this happens across every industry.
(36:05):
This is a psychological condition that stems from being, and it comes in waves, right?
So it's a psychological condition that comes in waves depending on where we
are on our journey, where we are in our careers.
You can be incredibly successful at the top end of the table,
(36:29):
but you may still be having these feelings, as you rightly say, I suppose.
I think it's important to lean into imposter syndrome.
What do you mean by that? I think it's important to understand why you're feeling
that you're not good enough when everyone else around you says you are.
(36:50):
I think it's important to take time to reflect on the work that you are creating to get a mentor,
to share your work with somebody who has been there, done it,
and is able to give something back.
Leaning into imposter syndrome is basically a way of not running away from fear.
(37:19):
So if we kind of go back to and understand a bit of the human psyche,
you know, we are driven, we're emotionally driven, right? We're emotionally
charged, some more than others.
But our survival skills, the way that we survive and have survived over millennia
is basically fight, flight, or freeze.
(37:43):
And I think there's another element in there, but I can't remember right now what it is.
But that's basically imposter syndrome.
So when you look at imposter syndrome and say, this is in my opinion,
okay, I haven't studied this.
I am not a psychologist. You're an experience of how it affects people anyway, yeah.
(38:09):
These are literally my own experiences. And I liken it to fight,
flight, or freeze, of which I've been through all three of those emotions.
And I liken imposter syndrome to that as well.
So when I'm feeling out of depth, which is often maybe once a week,
you know, every time I go to the convention,
(38:32):
when we're sat amongst our peers who are all incredible photographers and business
people in their own right, you do tend to feel a little bit like,
oh, you know, what am I doing here? I feel a little bit fraudulent.
But you have to remember your successes. You have to remember where you've been.
You have to remember the journey that you've been on and
(38:54):
quite often you have no idea what everyone
else is feeling or thinking you just
you just don't there's it's impossible for us to know
that so we can only really go on how we feel and if
those feelings of i'm not good enough start to
bubble up lean into it because basically what
what your nervous system is telling you your it
(39:15):
is your nervous system it's telling you to to protect yourself
so run yeah if you're it's
feeling like i don't know what to do here i feel threatened so
yeah it's that kind of instinctive response and i think what a lot of people
don't realize is that it doesn't necessarily go away you know you can you can
win awards you can get a fellowship you can be a photographer for many years
(39:38):
you can run a successful business but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be
feeling super confident and fine about everything all the time.
A lot of people don't realize that the person standing on stage, receiving an award,
might actually be thinking, I don't deserve this. I shouldn't be here.
You know, we don't know. Well, there's a funny story. There's a funny story
(40:00):
with that, incidentally.
So it's exactly what happened to me literally at the beginning of this year.
So I had decided that I was going to put my big girl pants on and enter into
the Icon Awards in Vegas, right? Right.
So once I got my fellowship with Atrophy, I was very shy and I didn't really shout about it.
(40:29):
And I kind of like, I love the work. The work is beautiful and it's stunning
and it has picked up awards.
And obviously it gave me my fellowship, but I didn't really run with it at the time for many reasons.
But the Icon Awards had come up.
Also, it kind of coincided with the beginnings of COVID incidentally. incidentally
so those two big sort of things happened at
(40:51):
once so i put like the big girl pants on
and i thought well i'm just gonna go for it see what happens so anyway so
i put a couple in and one image did well
obviously atrophy and one image didn't do
so well which was one of my wedding pieces which was
fine okay the wedding piece had already won an
award at the convention so it's quite interesting to see that
(41:11):
that didn't make the cut anyhow so
i got a lovely message to say congratulations you know
you made it to the finals i was
like what i knew it
did well but i didn't realize it did that well so i was like oh
my god for me i had
won that was great anyway so
(41:33):
i i got it printed by the print foundry
thank you very much ronaldo was a great help when
we chose beautiful paper and we really kind of
made sure that the presentation quality was you
know top end and I
sent it off to Vegas and I didn't think any more of it and
then January came or was it February February March
(41:55):
I can't remember and I wanted to go to Vegas but I couldn't for various personal
reasons I didn't make it out there and I probably just as well because boy I
would have felt like an imposter I can tell you that much I would have been.
So overwhelmed I would have just wanted to run it to the corner and hide.
Anyway, I don't like doing that.
(42:18):
So I was watching the ceremony on kick and, you know, all the awards and stuff.
And then it was the portrait division.
And by this point, I don't know what time it was. It must have been really early
in the morning. I was fast asleep.
I'd gone to bed. But I really didn't think anything of it.
To me, I'd won. My image had made it into the finals. So that was that.
(42:40):
Yeah, you'd achieved what you could hope for, really, in many ways. Yeah.
I achieved the goal. I achieved the goal. In the back of my mind,
I had said, wouldn't it be lovely to win Vegas?
But never in my wildest dreams did I think I would win the category winner.
And I woke up to a message saying, congratulations.
(43:02):
I was like, what have I done? What have I done now?
And then another one said, oh, your image was beautiful.
And I was like, okay, I must have come third. That's incredible.
Incredible and then throughout the morning all of these
and i was like what the hell has happened so i jumped on to watch
the replay and somebody had actually
(43:25):
sent me i don't know who this photographer was actually i i i don't know who
she i've never met her but she follows me on facebook and she saw my image come
up on the big screen in in vegas and it
had a thirst to buy it and she She photographed it and she sent it to me.
And I was just like, no, this is wrong. This is not right. What's happened?
(43:51):
And anyway, so I jumped on and I watched it and I watched it about four times. It was amazing.
I just couldn't believe it. And I was delighted to win that category for boudoir and fine art.
And, oh, you know, to see Atrophy be a success in a place like that was just
absolutely, absolutely wonderful. But massive imposter syndrome.
(44:14):
It's funny because you said, oh, I must have come third, not,
oh, I wonder where I've placed.
It's like, oh, if I've done really well, I must have come at the bottom end of what really well is.
Yeah, that says a lot, right? Even there.
So it's something
that a lot of us just find even when
(44:36):
that sort of thing happens it doesn't it might go away
for a day or two or something once it's sunk in you might think
oh you know feel a bit good about what you do but it
doesn't necessarily go away for good and it's something
that along with working on the business and working on our
photography techniques sometimes we just we have to
keep working on our mindset as well yeah you do and this is why it's important
(44:57):
court and not to run away incidentally so because it's kicking in our flight
mode if we run away from everything we won't grow as people we will never see
what is on the other side of the fence,
Now, life may not be greener, but it could be.
So, you know, I mean, everything's a risk, everything's a gamble.
(45:20):
So if you're going to nip over the other side of the fence, make sure it's the
right fence you're nipping over.
But that's the first advice I can give.
But yeah, don't run away from it.
You will be surprised what joy and wonderments will be there waiting for you, really.
(45:43):
It's very very difficult it's not easy it's not
easy and I've gone through last year was a very difficult year
and I spent the whole year just in a place of resistance.
And fear and you know I
was very very challenged and I I had
a dream I had a passion and I I this
this this psychology the the mindset was was
(46:04):
holding me back I don't I don't know what it was
that cleared it but something cleared it the energy changed and
and here i am with you yeah proof that you can
get through it yeah you can so lean into it
guys lean into it so as
um as somebody who's involved in in training others
how do you continue to develop yourself
(46:25):
what types of input do you look for
is it for your business or is it for your photography how do
you how do you keep growing yourself to business
basically so i've invested into many
business mentors over the last
18 months to really get an understanding of what
(46:45):
business is and how we show up
in business today what how to generate conversations
you know understanding figures understanding what
we need to do and all of that knowledge that I've learned over the last 18 months
married with all of the knowledge and experience I've gained over the last 15
(47:06):
years more so to put into a program which is very comprehensive and very all-rounded.
I can pass on all of that experience to my own mentees.
And I think it's really important to constantly challenge yourself.
Self so business changes all
the time people change all the time the
(47:28):
way that we need to show up we have to change we have
to evolve and you can't evolve without constant learning
yeah totally agree yeah so do you have goals then for yourself are you somebody
who likes to set goals or within a particular time of something you want to
achieve you somebody who works by that kind of in five years time I want to
(47:49):
be here or is that something that sits with your personality?
Yes and no. No, because I'm a creative.
So, you know, to hold myself accountable and be disciplined is a challenge as
it is for most creatives.
I do have a goal for the next five years. I do see my business growing and scaling.
(48:16):
I want to reach as many photographers as I can to help them be successful and grow.
I always want to be with my
camera I always want to be photographing weddings
I always want to be photographing fine art
and these are my goals and these these are my my
my personal personal challenges as
(48:37):
well I think it's important to say that
time is a commodity and time
goes but you won't get it back okay so
what you do with your time is an investment
and it's important to keep moving yourself forward so.
Where setting goals can be important it can
(48:57):
also be overwhelming and it can also be
challenging but if we do little things every day
to get where we need to be then those
goals and the overwhelm will slowly slowly
wash away that's the that's the
first thing i'd say and it's breaking it down into manageable
chunks isn't it i think when you see
(49:19):
when you see a big goal it can
look so far off but if you then break
that down just into some slightly smaller pieces and take
each one of those pieces and break that down into
smaller steps you can you can tick off little
things every day or every other day and said oh i've done this i've
done that and before you know it you're actually working towards
(49:39):
having one of those bigger pieces is complete and you
know rather than just looking at the big view all
the time that can be off pushing in some ways it can
be and i think that for me where i had seen the vision of having a mentoring
business the wedding photography mentor the the end result of that the bigger
(50:00):
picture of that was so overwhelming i didn't actually know where to start and
by breaking it down into kind
of really small pieces and just getting the foundations laid.
Even though I wasn't generating an income from it at that time,
I was still taking small steps to be able to get myself into a position where
(50:25):
I could start taking people on board the program.
And now people are on board the program, it's proof of concept.
And it means it's viable. and to see my mentees actually come in and succeed
and take action and to drive and to thrive and to be passionate and to be happy
and to feel confident within themselves there is nothing better and each week we have a call.
(50:52):
Each week there is a success story. Each week there is a story of,
oh, I haven't quite done that and I felt a little bit of fear or a little bit of resistance.
But we are all there in a community to help pull that person along.
So for me to actually take those small steps and to get to a place where I've
hit goal one, which is actually having some mentees in the first place to pass on all this knowledge.
(51:16):
It's just amazing. yeah so so
yeah if somebody um if somebody's wondering
well what what sort of thing might be an indication to them
that they could benefit from having a mentor such as yourself are there
sort of red flags that they might be in their business or in their work that
you might think well hold on if you're feeling like that then come and talk
(51:37):
to me what sort of things do you think would would be triggers then that would
suggest people should talk to you about confidence Unconfidence is one.
So if you're feeling unconfident and you're not quite sure how you're showing
up in your own business, that could be a challenge.
That could be your overwhelm. It could be that social media is overwhelming for you.
(52:00):
Website design is overwhelming for you.
Having a brand and actually positioning that brand in the marketplace could be overwhelming.
All of these things can be our initial challenges. As creators, we're driven by ego.
And sometimes, you know, our egos, we can pick up a camera and we can take a
(52:24):
photo and our ego will tell us that that's a good picture and we're not worried about it.
Okay, so there are two sides of the business.
There is one where you will have a person who, everyone, we all love photography, you know.
But if you're somebody who is strong in business, but perhaps your photography
(52:45):
isn't as good as what you want it, your red flag would be, I'm getting the money
in, I'm doing all right as a photographer,
but I can't push myself to win an award.
I can't push myself to get qualification.
There is an element of me thinking, oh, I'm not really that good,
but it's paying the bill, so I don't care. So, if you're a photographer and
(53:09):
you're sitting in that camp, that's great, brilliant.
If you want to take your photography to the next level and not be average, be exceptional,
charge more for your wedding photography, which means you don't have to shoot as much.
(53:30):
But you can still generate the same amount of income, but your photography is
just, you know, up a notch.
Therefore, you know, you value it more.
You can, you know, that's a driver, if that makes sense.
And then on the other side, you've got the creative who's really bad at business,
but will take a photo and they'll look at the photo and it'll be a fantastic photo.
(53:51):
It'll be an award winning photo and they'll go, oh, I don't like my photography.
And then you go okay well let's let's
get things in place here let's be realistic your photography
is great so let's worry about the photography once you've
picked up business let's get the business foundations in place
let's get these bookings coming through let's.
(54:12):
Get you shooting more so you can become more confident so they're
very much there are very much two personas that
i can help with the with the mentoring program i hope
i answered your question i feel like i went off on a on a tangent and
where could they where should they go if they want to find out
more about what's on offer oh wait so
they can go to the website the wedding photography mentor there's there's
(54:33):
a website there which has a little video about
the program has everything there that we what
we offer and the benefit it is to the person who wants
to come on board and then there's the social feeds
that you can find me on also the wedding photography mentor it's
a subscription based so currently we're pricing it
at 17 pounds per month it's still very
(54:56):
much in alpha but we're moving towards beta stage
soon so the price will be going up until
we officially launch and we've got all our ducks in a
row but at the moment we're in alpha stage and basically what that means is
i'm taking on mentees i'm coaching i'm training but i'm also building the business
(55:16):
as well so So we're kind of holding each other's hands to get this to a place
of great success. It's very, very exciting.
Yeah, sounds exciting. Yeah. Wish you all the best with that.
And thank you very much for coming on to the podcast to share some of these things with us.
Yeah, no problem. It's been a joy. Thank you very much.
Thank you, everybody, for listening. Get connected, trained,
(55:39):
supported and qualified with the Society of Photographers.
Sponsors of the Focused Professional Podcast.
Music.
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