Weddings, Composites & Competitions with Rachel Owen

World-renowned portrait photographer Rachel Owen joins Joe to share her experiences and the learning curve that led to her becoming a highly respected wedding photographer and international-award-winning composite artist. Rachel describes how she discovered her goals, aimed high and worked hard until she achieved her incredible success. She now helps other photographers along the journey, teaching and critiquing their work.

Over the years Rachel has professionally shot several different genres of portraits, including her latest main offering - bridal boudoir. Having experienced burnout, frustration at not reaching the standard she aspired to and then pivoting to keep herself sane, her story is one of perseverance, diversification and committed hard work that can inspire photographers going through hard times. She also speaks about some of her influences as an artist and how she came to work on projects with a message, such as her "Response" art book, inspired by the turmoil of the Covid pandemic. 

Reminding herself of the privileged position she is in, being chosen to photograph key moments in people's lives, Rachel has a client-centred business focused on delivering the best she can. As an artist she isn't afraid to break the rules and she thrives on the joy of creativity. Her playful side not only uses a range of items to convey metaphorical meaning, but she even hides elements in her images for the viewer to discover.

Rachel Owen is a photographer at the top of her game. Join us as she unveils her unique process for creating captivating photographic compositions, including how she turned a lack of space to her advantage - pushing her to hone her compositing skills which now allow her to create unique narrative images with depth of meaning.

Don't miss the chance to learn from her experiences and insights in this episode!

Images © Rachel Owen (used here with permission)

Visit Rachel Owen's website to see more of her work.

 

This episode is sponsored by The Society of Photographers

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Focused Professional Podcast, sponsored by the Society of Photographers.
I'm your host, Joe Lenton, and this is Episode 14.
Music.

(00:33):
Welcome to the Focused Professional Podcast. Today we have a guest who's known
for wedding photography with her husband, Jeff,
also on their own, but also is very well known around the world now for winning
awards with the WPPI, ICON, Portrait Masters,
The Societies, and probably several others that I've forgotten as well.

(00:54):
I'd like to introduce you to Rachel Owen. Hello, Rachel. Hello,
Joe. Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be able to have you on the podcast and talk a little bit about your work.
I've really enjoyed being able to be introduced to it as a judge,
particularly your composite work.
How much of your sort of work is balanced on towards that now?

(01:15):
Because I know you do the weddings as well.
What's the sort of spread for you when you do your work?
Yeah, so I have a mix.
Like I try to do at least a personal project a month because that just keeps
me refreshed and going for other things.
But a lot of people don't know. Well, up until COVID, my husband and I shot
about 65 weddings a year.

(01:35):
Post COVID, we've kind of pivoted from that just because that was so scary.
Like in 2020, when we had to reschedule 65 weddings, it was just the most stressful thing in the world.
So we still do weddings, but when we stopped our advertising because of COVID,
we never started it up again.
So what I've moved into now, which was kind of a natural transition,

(01:56):
I had a lot of women been coming in during COVID asking for bridal boudoir,
which was always a service that I offered.
But now, well, last year I shot a hundred, just under a hundred sessions of
bridal boudoir, just boudoir in general. And this year we're aiming for 150.
So that's kind of the thing that I can guarantee makes us money.
So I have only been a professional photographer since I graduated high school and my husband as well.

(02:22):
So this is the only source of income for our family. And I really like to keep
things stable, especially with having a kid and everything else.
The artwork is great and I love doing that. And if I were younger,
I would probably start with that again. But it's a completely different kind of selling mindset.
If you wanted to sell more of the artwork, it would be more like working with

(02:44):
galleries and trying to sell limited edition prints.
And that is just a little bit too scary for me at this point in my life.
If I were in my 20s, we could go that route. But I really like the stability
of having boudoir booked out a few months and the weddings and other things we do.
Babies, before I did weddings, I'd done children and portrait sessions.

(03:04):
When I got out of high school, I worked at a picture people,
which is a huge place here in the mall.
Like they could do 100 sessions in a day easily.
And so it was just kind of a natural like we mostly advertise boudoir now.
But if somebody asks for a children or newborn or family session,
I'm not going to turn down that money just because I have that under my belt. It's another skill set.

(03:25):
Has that enabled you to have repeat clients then?
So when you've had clients for weddings, have you then been able to bring them
in again for the children, for the portraits, for the boudoir? are. Yeah, absolutely.
So my husband and I got our studio location together in 2010.
And I have, there's two or three of those clients who we did their engagement

(03:47):
shoot and their wedding, and they're still coming back to us with their kids.
A couple of them are like eight and nine years old now. And it's really cool
to see that whole evolution.
Yeah. You've got that sort of trust from them as a client that they can then
come straight back to you and carry on throughout with these other services.

(04:07):
So yeah, that makes sense. The boudoir is a new thing.
Is that something, you said like bridal boudoir, so is that something that you
kind of bundle up together with a wedding package?
Is it something that's totally separate normally?
Yeah, I haven't bundled it with a wedding package, but oddly enough,
the bridal boudoir is starting the cycle again because they'll come in for bridal

(04:30):
boudoir and be like, oh, you do weddings too.
And And then here we go with the whole family.
However, I'm a little bit careful because in Bridal Boudoir,
we spend two to three hours to get 30 perfect photos. And I pre-retouch all of those.
And when I first did a Bridal Boudoir several years ago, the bride thought that
every one of her wedding pictures was going to be perfection retouched.

(04:53):
And we had a little bit of a problem.
So now I explain to them if they've done Bridal Boudoir, I'll say something
like, hey, we We took almost three hours to get 30 perfect photos on your wedding day.
You are going to have hundreds of photos and these are not all going to be perfect.
Your album photos will be perfect, but not all of them.
So I kind of have to control expectations that way.

(05:14):
Why? Yeah, I can imagine. Otherwise, it'd be probably on their fifth wedding
anniversary. You could say, I've finished.
Here it is. I've done the retouching.
Like, I don't look like that anymore. more right yeah managing
people's expectations is is such an important
thing whatever area of business you're in whether it's

(05:35):
the commercial photography or weddings and portraits so
that you can avoid those kind of potentially awkward
moments later down the line if you if you set out in advance look this is what
it's going to be then there's that avoids there being any awkward surprises
i think so it's a very sensible approach yeah that's key i always say If you
can learn to talk to a bride on her wedding day and calm her down,

(05:58):
you can handle any customer service situation.
I can imagine. Yes. Yeah. That's pretty intense.
I should think if that kicks off there. Yeah.
So you went into photography from college, you said from school.
Yeah. I started out college as a music major.

(06:21):
And when I got the job in the picture people, it was the first time,
like I was debilitatingly shy as I was growing up and not that like I I wanted
to interact with people.
I was just very shy to even say things to people.
And when I got the camera in my hand, it was the first time that all my shyness
went away. It was really quite weird.

(06:42):
And I just felt like I was really supposed to pursue this.
So I changed my major within a couple of weeks and I never finished that degree.
I ended up having my son and there was like this whole college debacle.
They didn't think I was going to be able to finish because I I was having a
baby and I ended up getting an internship at one of the local wedding studios

(07:03):
out here. And that's actually where I met my husband.
And it's been fantastic because I've learned that photography is so much like
the gear, the F-stop, the shutter speed, none of those things have changed since
photography was invented.
So once you know that, especially in portrait and weddings and all the things
that make us money, everything except for commercial, it's learning how to work with people.

(07:24):
And I don't think that you can learn that the same way in a classroom. So.
No, there's a certain amount of just getting out there and getting on with it.
You can't really do theoretical exercises for talking to a person because people
are all different, aren't they? Yeah.
You've got to find what helps you to connect with that client.
And that might not be the same as another client. So it's that experience that

(07:47):
helps you to read Lead people, I think. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And when newer photographers ask me like, oh, I'm getting a degree
in photography, I try to politely steer them into I think a business degree would be better.
Like go out and learn the people because so many photographers fail because
they can't market their business.
Sadly true. Yes. Now, for the way that I'd like to approach business is very

(08:10):
much sort of thinking about having a set of values, having a core motivation
or recognising what that is.
Some of us don't necessarily know what it is, but when you sort of been in business
a while, you reflect on these things and it helps to drive you day to day.
It helps to make those decisions in your business a little bit easier because
you've got a structure to it. Would you say that you have sort of values or

(08:32):
a motivation at the heart of your business that you're aware of?
Yeah, absolutely. I always feel like people come before profits and that's got to be everything.
And I recently started a couple of years ago, a little investment company with
my parents where we're renting out houses.
And we said at the beginning, like people come before profits at the same time,

(08:53):
we're also not a charity.
So it's not letting yourself get walked over, but just understanding that I
found in my life, if I focus on profits and if I focus on money,
that money does not come.
It is not coming to me. But if I focus on how many people I can serve,
how many heirlooms I can create for families that are going to be treasured for generations,

(09:15):
when I focus on there's a client in front of me and rather than getting the
biggest sale or prepping her for the sale, I want to focus on creating a legacy
for her and making her feel empowered and giving her this great experience,
well, then the money is just a byproduct of that.
I think that sometimes when business is a little bit tight or perhaps when people

(09:37):
are starting out, you start to inadvertently communicate with the way that your
body language and everything is that you're starting to get a bit desperate for the cash.
You know how it is with some people.
You can kind of feel it. They're They're desperate for the sale.
They're desperate for something. And that actually, that makes it worse. Yeah.
In a way, being able to relax into it and for doing it for a different reason

(09:58):
can often open the door and the money becomes a byproduct. Yeah.
And that's huge. In 2015, I started following the Sue Bryce education model
and I doubled my sales average in the portrait studio by changing nothing other
than my mindset around it and my energy.

(10:20):
And that really, I couldn't believe it.
And when she was talking about, oh, you have to change your mindset.
It's in your mind. Like you're attracting this. And I was like, no.
And then she was right. And I'm like, okay, I guess I attracted that.
So yeah, it's really, mindset is everything. thing. It makes an enormous difference. Absolutely.

(10:41):
So when you get up for work each day.
What sort of thing helps to get you going? What sort of thing motivates you? What do you have in mind?
What kind of a mindset are you trying to create for yourself?
Because I mean, let's face it, we all have days where we get up and think,
oh, I'd just like to roll over and pull the duvet back over for a bit longer or something like that.

(11:04):
So especially on days when it's more difficult, what do you use to motivate yourself?
How do you get your mind in the right place?
Yeah, that's a great question because I will have those days where it's like,
yeah, I don't want to do anything.
And very often my clients will end up canceling on those days.
And you know that bitter feeling when a client cancels, you're like,

(11:25):
oh, I'm not going to make money today.
But at the same time, now I have the day off. So, yeah, I just try to focus
on one of the phrases I say to myself often is this person is giving me the
opportunity to have my home,
to have my cars, to provide for my son, to put food on the table,
and they deserve all of my love and attention.

(11:46):
And I am so lucky to be able to do what I love for a job and have it support
me that to think that, you know, maybe I don't want this client is just ungratefulness.
So I try to check myself pretty quick and just get into focusing on,
I am so privileged to be able to do this job.
So it's, it's appreciating what you've got and having a service mentality mentality

(12:11):
then, I suppose, for you.
Yeah. Yeah. I'd say that's pretty spot on. Oh, that's interesting.
So you seem to get a lot of joy out of what you do.
You seem to really enjoy serving people, except on those days when we'd like
to be under the duvet for a bit longer.
But, you know, what sort of thing then makes it difficult for you within business?

(12:33):
What sort of thing takes that joy away for you?
Yeah, I would say, I mean, there's not much that takes that joy away.
I, so I'll go back to past things when I used to feel like that,
when I would get stressed out about things like money or stressed out about
us not being able to pay the bills, especially because it's only one business for the whole income.

(12:58):
It's not like my husband has a different job that we could fall back on.
Yeah. And also just having the burnout thing, like the burnout thing is really, I mean, that's real.
And that's what we definitely started experiencing with the weddings.
So COVID was almost, in a lot of ways, I see COVID as a blessing for us in that

(13:18):
it really made me slow down and say, okay, I don't need all of these weddings.
Like we can survive without it.
And it really showed me what I was sacrificing for the amount of things that we were doing.
So really to avoid things like burnout and those things that stressed me out,
I have this rule that we enacted about five years ago.

(13:40):
If nobody is going to notice me doing something, if nobody is ever going to
appreciate it, then I do not do that thing.
So when that comes to retouching, if this is going to be a four by six and it
is not going to be large and nobody's ever going to notice this spot removal
or removing these wrinkles out of the clothing, then I am not going to do it.

(14:02):
Now, if they bought a 40 by 60 and it is going to be noticed,
then I will do those things and just kind of really saying, okay,
what, what do our clients need?
And what are we doing? That's extra that is beyond, beyond what we need to do.
And I, so we're kind of at more of like a middle of the road business rather
than being super high end, you know, having 150 boudoir clients a year allows

(14:27):
me to shoot like three times a week.
So it's just having a little bit more bulk in there where, you know,
we're not averaging super high numbers.
Last year, we averaged just under $2,000 American.
No, just over $2,000 American. And this year, I'm going for $3,000.
So it's not like these super $10,000 clients where I feel obligated to fix every little thing.

(14:48):
So it allows me to kind of spend a little bit less effort and avoid that kind
of burnout mentality, at least for me, that's what it's done.
Does that enable you to keep everything in-house or do you find you need to
Do you outsource anything as a business?
We outsource very, very little. So I have a makeup artist.

(15:09):
We have a few of them on staff. They're not actually on staff.
They're 1099, which means they come in just for the makeup and then they leave.
So they're not like full-time employed.
Okay. And we have a videographer that we have for the weddings and we have a
couple of photo booth people that we have for the weddings, but they just come in when they're needed.
The one thing that we did outsource this year was our marketing.
Writing. We went with a company called Studio Digital from Australia.

(15:33):
And that has been a huge weight lifted off my shoulders too,
because they just, the greatest thing is I don't even know what they're doing.
And that's the way that I like it. People ask me like, what are they doing? How are they marketing?
Like, I don't know. And I don't care. The phone is ringing. That's all I wanted.
Yeah. So that's been super helpful. Yeah. As long as you've got that flow into

(15:55):
the business of new leads, new clients and that, then how exactly they come in.
Well, yeah, it's nice when you don't necessarily have to worry about this, that sort of thing.
When you can find areas that you're not so interested in, the sort of things
that can drain your energy potentially and get someone else to do it.
Yeah, that can be a real plus. Yep.
So I said in the introduction that you're known around the world for the various

(16:18):
different awards you've won in various different competitions and so on.
What sort of role do competitions play for you other than just enjoying winning
them? Why do you enter competitions?
Yeah, so competition, I feel like, has been the single biggest thing that has
improved my photography over the years.

(16:39):
I remember going to some of these competitions and looking in the galleries,
specifically at WPPI. That was the first convention I'd ever gone to.
And I just remember being like, wow, these images are incredible.
And that was the year I told myself, I want to take this craft to the highest
level that I possibly can, be the best that I can be. And I said,

(16:59):
okay, well then what does that look like? Like if we're going to set a goal,
it's got to be measurable.
And I said, you know, I want to score the highest numbers that I can.
And after a few years of competing, cause I've been competing since 2007 and
I got really frustrated cause I could not score above a 78.
Like I couldn't get anything that would get into the gallery.

(17:20):
And I said, this is ridiculous. They probably know these people or some sort
of like politicalness going on here or, you know, it's a conspiracy.
They only give the awards to their mates. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking.
And, you know, they favor a certain style. And then I went in the gallery and
I was looking around and I saw one name specifically, and I knew he was from,

(17:43):
I believe he's from Australia, Ryan Schembri.
And I saw his name again and again and again. And then there were a few other
names that I kept seeing again and again.
And I was like, well, I really do think that this was all judged anonymously.
So how are some people getting here again and again and again?
There's got to be some sort of method to this.
And it took me a few years, but I was able to crack that and I was able to consistently

(18:07):
score 80s and just realizing that some of the things are in the technique.
And then I said, okay, I'm sick of scoring 81. I want to get into the 90s now.
So what is it that my work is missing.
And that's when I realized that storytelling is everything, especially in photo competition.
And when you look at the things that score 80, you could write a little few sentences about them.

(18:33):
And if they're in the high 80s, you might be able to write a paragraph about what's going on.
And if things are in the 90s and above, those are things where you could write
a novel about what is going on in the scene.
So that was really the code. but in learning that I've been able to apply so
much of that to my client work because like little things like oh that hand

(18:54):
the wrist is broken forward and not back the judges would hate that and then
I don't put it in my client work you know like the highlights and things,
it's all really transferred to everything and really helped me grow as a photographer.
They become positive habits then, don't they?
Once you start looking for these
things and seeing them, it then seeps through to the rest of your work.

(19:17):
So did you manage to work all this out on your own? Did you have a mentor or
did you just talk to other photographers?
How did you manage to crack the code, as you put it?
Yeah, I sat through a lot of judging. goodness Jeff
and I probably sat together through WPPI judging
from like 2007 to 2015

(19:39):
like we did not leave the place and we had
this little game we would play where we would whisper to each other what we
would think it would score and we got pretty good at that but then wanting to
move beyond that I took a composite workshop with Ben Shirk that really just
lit a fire under me and then I learned storytelling a lot from Luke and David Edmondson.

(20:00):
And right now I have a little photographer mastermind group.
One of my friends said, Hey, can we start a little group just to critique each
other on print competition?
And it's for things that none of us are judges in, but it's really great having
other people at a high level be able to critique my work before it goes to competition.
Cause when you sit and look at for something for so long, like you start missing

(20:21):
things when somebody with fresh eyes sees it, they see a whole world of things that you can't see.
Totally. Yep. I, I get that, you know, as a, as a judge myself,
you know, trained to look for these things, but yet somehow when it's your own,
you've seen it so many times you're blind to it.
Yeah. Yeah. You can't, you're like jaded. And my favorite work is always my

(20:43):
most recent work, which is not always the highest scoring.
So I even ask people like what images judges, they think I should enter into
the competition because I'm not a good judge of my own work.
I don't think anybody is.
Yeah, it's difficult. I think you've really put your finger on it there with
saying how the images need to communicate somehow.
There needs to be some kind of a story there because there's a certain level

(21:05):
at which technical excellence becomes assumed within competitions.
Once you can get to a certain standard, it's assumed that technically you're
going to get it about right, that they're not going to be obvious errors in there anymore.
More and you just simply don't progress
to the next level unless you've got
that extra something in there unless you've got that story so

(21:28):
knowing that that's the case how do you then come up with that sort of story
for your image is it something that the story comes first and then you can build
everything around it or is it can you can you give us an idea of your sort of
your thought process when you're trying to create these things?
Yeah, for me, the story definitely comes first.

(21:49):
I do mentorship and help with print competition and things.
And a lot of people will ask me like, well, should I do this to the photograph or should I do this?
And I will say, well, what message do you want to convey?
And then I'll get that kind of blank stare. And I realized there for the first
time after the image has been created, thinking about what they want the viewer to feel.

(22:10):
And if you're for the first time thinking about that after you have the image
created, well, then you're like 10 steps behind.
So having that story, having that focus of where I want to go,
what I want the viewer to feel when they look at the image, well,
then all my choices are easy because I can look and say, well,
which one gets my message across better?

(22:31):
So yeah, for me, it's definitely story first. And I don't get my inspiration from photographers.
I feel like that is what helps make my images unique and original.
I look for movies, sculpture, paintings, drawings.
I like to go to the art show all the time. So just things like that.
And then I often take pictures of things on my phone and I just have a little

(22:56):
inspiration album on my phone that I will look at.
It's got hundreds of photos in it, but I feel like I have more ideas in my head
that I could ever create in my lifetime.
Well, it's good to have plenty of spares. When you're creating a story or trying
to get an image to communicate for you, is it about getting someone to enter
into like a kind of a fantasy world?

(23:17):
World or is it that something that you're trying to communicate a message what
what are you normally trying trying to do with your images is it is it the the
emotions that you're trying to draw out,
actually it's the emotions i feel like for the past nine months i've been commissioned
for a lot of things like i won the cg the pro prince billboard campaign so i

(23:38):
had to make a campaign for that and so then my goal was to make something that
was going to be really eye-catching both for
them to use in their advertising, but also for my billboard.
And then I partnered with Baby Dream Backdrops on some things to advertise their backdrops.
So it was creative work, but the goal was to make it eye-catching to get people
to stop scrolling, which is okay.
I enjoy doing it, but I'm really excited to get back to creating some things

(24:02):
with some really deep meaning to me.
And I lost my niece this past year and I was doing this series.
I started doing this series on, it was quite controversial, so I won't go into
all of it, but, and now it's become just about grief and it's become about.

(24:22):
Telling a story of through a series of images, how the grief that specifically
women go through after having lost a child.
And so knowing that my intention is first the story, like I might enter a few
of them into print competition, but I know that first I want people to be able
to connect with those emotions.
And they're kind of just unusual photographs.

(24:44):
I don't know if they're going to be as pretty or well-received in the photography community.
I think they'll probably do really well in art competitions,
but that's more just for me. So I can do anything that I want with them.
I think that sometimes there's an idea that photography is always about beauty,
about things that are pretty, about showing the nice things, a nice sunset,

(25:08):
a nice looking man and woman, a nice looking house, a nice looking product.
Don't you think there's a space in there for the nasty, for the uncomfortable
though? Don't you think we need to see that as well?
Be challenged by it. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think there's a time to like even break the rules of photography too.
But at the same time, I feel like having learned all these different skills,

(25:31):
like how to light like this, how to retouch like this, like just really keeping
a versatility set of skills helps me do my images justice because I can pull
out any one of those that's going to help me communicate the story at any time.
But then also having known all the rules, having the freedom to break them with
intentionality that people can see that they were intentionally broken.

(25:54):
And the funny thing is those sort of things can be very memorable.
It's like if you think about language, I tend to think of photos as being like
a visual language, if you like.
And you think of the Star Trek motto, you know, to boldly go.
That's grammatically that's wrong you know it breaks the

(26:15):
rules but it's one of those things that whether you're into it or
not you've heard and it kind of sticks and and sometimes
then going beyond the rules like that can actually help you
to stand out and it's like knowing what the rules are and then thinking okay
but perhaps actually these rules are more sort of tools to help me be understood

(26:36):
rather than something that has to restrict you I think that that for me that's
That's where I think some photographers go wrong, is that by seeing them as rules,
it's almost like these are chains I have to put on myself to make an image that's acceptable.
Yeah. See it as a tool.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that 100%. And even as you look at a lot of the modern
day fashion, like especially the Zara ads right now, that's like the rules are completely broken.

(27:01):
It's not anything that would have been acceptable like 20 years ago, you know?
Yeah. We need to innovate. Sometimes it will work and sometimes it doesn't.
But you have to just be brave enough to try these things sometimes.
Yeah. I think it's interesting looking at how some of your images,
you can see the influence from classical paintings, how you've taken on some

(27:24):
of their use of colour and also their use of colour.
Sort of metaphor with items that are
within an image you know when
someone's painting something because nowadays when we
think with photography we think about normally removing things you know cloning
something out healing brush to get rid of this when someone was painting it

(27:46):
they would only put it in if it had meaning yeah so i guess in a way when we
look at one of your images we should look for meaning in everything that's in
there would you say yeah there's meaning in everything.
And I hide a lot of things in the images too. So yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of, a lot of meaning. Like a sort of where's Wally kind of thing, is it? Yep. Exactly.

(28:12):
Yeah. Yeah. My favorite painter, his name is Tim Cantor.
He just has a new show like just two days ago
in Amsterdam and he will hide his
wife's name and his wife's birthday throughout a
lot of the paintings and I've been working on hiding like numbers and
different things like that in there too so that's always

(28:32):
fun when you can like hide it and people barely see
but then when they do you see their eyes get real big they're all excited they
notice something it's one of the things that makes images like yours on the
one hand a joy to judge but on the other hand really difficult to judge because
in competitions as you know you don't get 10 minutes to sit there and look at an image.

(28:53):
You can't spend a lot of time unpicking it all.
You've got to be quite quick. But what it does to the judges is they can see
there's an intent here, there's a story that's starting to develop,
and there's that desire to stay with the image and want more from it.
And that, I think, is a good way for people to think that they're likely to score more.

(29:14):
If a judge can look at an image and think, yeah, seen that, it's pretty,
it's nice, but I've seen it, that's it.
It's not likely to score on the really high
end you know i think putting those that that extra
work in even if it's not all taken into consideration in
the scoring initially you're providing things
that are going to give lasting interest yeah and especially for clients as well

(29:39):
you know to have a picture up on the wall that they can keep seeing something
new it yeah yeah that's key and i think especially in judging if you can if
you can give them something they've never seen before.
And then there's also a strategy to that and knowing.
Are the judges judging together or are they judging separately?
So if it's a traditional print competition where the judges are all going to

(30:02):
be talking and discussing,
then I will enter images that have a little bit more of those hidden meanings,
because I know that if I can just get one judge to get it and challenge it,
they're going to spend a ton of time on the image.
And if they spend a lot of time, usually your score is going up.
Whereas if the competition or even for client work, if it's just where they're
going to be looking at it separately, then I'll go more for impact rather than

(30:27):
trying to put in specific things if it's created specifically for that situation.
That's interesting. Yeah. When you're actually creating the images now,
clearly a lot of it is composited in. It's done adding bits in in Photoshop.
So how much do you actually create the scene in real life, if you like?

(30:49):
So is there much that's actually there at all or is most of it added in afterwards?
No, most of it's added in afterwards. I wish.
So I started compositing because I didn't have a lot of money to put towards
photographs and I don't like to take the time to make sets and things.

(31:09):
And then I am terrible with always changing my mind.
Like I definitely have the clear purpose that I'll be like, I want the bird.
I don't want the bird. And I started making sets and things and then realized
compositionally, like I did one with my son, the Copernicus one,
and I put all these items on the table and I lined it all up and I was like,
this is my composition. It's going to be great.

(31:31):
And then when I got into Photoshop, I kept moving all the things different places
to try and get your eye to move around the frame.
And I was like, I should have just shot these all separately because it's harder
to now cut it out and move it. But so knowing that I'm like that,
I would rather shoot all the things separately because then I can tweak them
just the tiniest little bit.

(31:51):
Like two clicks moving an item
can really change the whole dynamic of the competition of the composition.
Yeah, where things are placed and how it's leading the eye, all of this makes a difference.
I think one of the reasons I asked is because you said you had some sort of
influence from the Edmundsons.
And of course, they're known for building incredible sets.

(32:12):
Yeah, they build incredible sets. And at their workshop, they had like three
different walls that they brought in.
And so my studio, it was built 120 years ago, which is very old for something
here in the United States.
And like we just have one small door and the
ceilings are eight foot so i can't like
i can't even bring in walls so that's where

(32:35):
the compositing i i started to photograph
i have always wanted to photograph the thorn rooms at the art institute of chicago
and they keep telling me no but that was my thought is like i can't travel to
these great places or build these sets if i start photographing things in miniature
then i can create them myself but then i saw ben shirk's work and he He doesn't photograph miniature.

(32:57):
He just takes photos of all his travels and he puts it together, which is amazing.
So when you're photographing things that you may or may use for a composite
image like that, how much sort of notes and that are you taking?
Because one of the things that can make or break a composite image,
of course, is does the focal length and the lighting match up everywhere?

(33:20):
So when you're shooting your kind of your own sort of stock library,
if you want to call it that. Yeah.
How how nerdy are you about making sure all the settings are the same or do
you do you go twisting things around and distorting them in Photoshop?
Yeah, I wish I could be nerdy where I didn't have to twist and do things in
Photoshop. I end up having to do it a lot.

(33:41):
But I do have a couple of rules when I'm out shooting stock photography.
So I have my spider holster, which is what allows me to be able to take my camera so many places.
And I try to keep the lens millimeter 50, if I can, a lot of times the museums
and places I've had to go like.
Even wider, but what I will prefer to do if there's not too many people like

(34:03):
on the side to me is that I'll take a shot and then move over and go all the
way around, like to stitch them together.
So take a shot to the left, up, right down and, you know, get a whole circle.
So then I can stitch things together, but I also try to just keep my camera at eye level.
So then when When I'm photographing a subject, my first grab is 50 millimeter

(34:23):
at eye level, unless it's been very planned out specifically.
But that helps most of my stock images actually be usable.
And then I also, if I really like like a background or a wall or a room,
I will shoot it at three different like focal planes.
So like I'll focus on the back wall, I'll focus in the middle and then I'll
focus something close to me. So I know that if I really love it,

(34:45):
now I've got three different bocas that I could put the subject into. Yeah.
That's interesting. Yeah. So rather than having to worry about how high the
tripod was or something like that, it's just being careful you don't wear some
extra high heels that day.
Otherwise your eye level's different. Exactly.
You don't have your photograph shoes where you put them on when you're going

(35:07):
out to take photos and you know you're at the right height. Right. Yeah.
No, everything is pretty much my eye level.
And when you when you photograph these elements for your
image do you do you then have in mind what you want and go
and look for it or do you just collect images
of things you think are interesting and then gradually bring them into a composition

(35:29):
yeah most of the time i'll collect things that i think are interesting it's
like there are a couple things like i've been looking for a rock wall for like
a couple of years and i just found one in i was in canada a couple weeks weeks
ago and there was like the perfect rock wall.
And I was like, Oh, I've been looking for this. And so I already know what I'm
going to composite that into.

(35:49):
So rarely, like I've got a few things, like I've also been looking for like
a, a tight mausoleum with glass on each side, which I don't think I'm going
to find here in the States.
I think I'm going to have to go to Europe to get that the way that I want it to be.
So like, there's a couple of things. At least you can put that on business expenses then, can't you?
Europe research trip. off.

(36:11):
But yeah, most of the time I will spend time going through the stock images,
kind of seeing what images follow the message or whatever I'm trying to purvey or tray.
So would you have a rough sort of timeframe that you would estimate it takes
you to put one of these images together from start to finish or does it vary

(36:31):
so much that you can't really say? Yeah, it varies hugely.
I I like to record what I'm doing, like just put the screen on record and let it go.
And then sometimes I'll play those in fast motion because people like to see
all the work, but I also like to go back and see all the work that was done.
Like if it's just a person like three quarter length where I don't have to worry

(36:51):
about perspective, like a person in front of an interesting wall where I don't
see their feet, those are usually just like a couple hours.
If I'm adding in things, maybe like four hours at the most. But if it's like
a full, like my son underwater, water.
I want to say that was like 40 hours or something ridiculous,
but it's a lot of putting something in and then sitting back and be like, Hmm, do I like that?

(37:13):
Do I not like that? Where I feel like I could repeat it like twice as fast as
what it took me to originally make all my decisions.
You've got some on your website, I think, haven't you? Where people can actually
play a run through of some of your images.
Yeah. On my Instagram, there's a bunch too. There's more on my Instagram,
but rachelowen.com has a lot of the making of or

(37:35):
behind the scenes yeah so then
you i'd like you to just tell us a little bit about the book project
that you had on that came out of the lockdown yeah say a little bit about that
yeah i did a series of images and i called it response and it is response to
the 2020 covid pandemic and it is basically like a visual metaphor of

(37:59):
the social and political melee that went on during the 2020 COVID pandemic.
And if I were to describe what each little symbolism means, it's actually incredibly controversial.
But I specifically tried to design that series in a way that whatever your political
feelings or associations are, you could see your side glorified more than the

(38:21):
other side, which has actually been really successful.
Yeah. And just asking people like, well, How do you feel? And it's so funny
because like I think of it one way, but I've had people who think the opposite
of me being like, this is the greatest image ever. And they see the exact opposite of what I see.
OK, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just kind of this weird.
I went to Death Valley here in the United States and California,

(38:44):
and it was just total isolation.
We went there during lockdown and camped and there was just like nothing.
And it had these just desert plains in this cracked earth. And I was like,
this is exactly symbolic of what the world is going through.
So I took all these stock images and then did models in the studio and created
these visual kind of weird composites, but they're kind of fun.

(39:04):
Sounds interesting. Exploring experience, which is, of course,
classically what artists, writers, sculptors and so on do, take life's experiences
and try and make something out of them.
It's often the way, I suppose, of a story having a stronger emotional and genuine
storytelling context is that content is that it's coming out of you.

(39:26):
It's coming through you. It's something you have experienced.
So therefore, it's not just an abstract idea.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So the, the book is that, is that available in print or is that something which
people can see online at all? Yeah, it's available in print.
You can go to my website, rachelowen.com right now. It's only available there.

(39:48):
We've talked about putting it on Amazon, but I still have several copies,
so I can ship that all over the world if anyone's interested in seeing it.
And it has a lot of the, like, it'll show the whole image and then to kind of
give people hints towards the Easter eggs that I was putting in there.
It has zoomed in places on the book.
Yeah. So you can also see a lot of the images on Instagram, but if you get the

(40:10):
book, you're going to get the writing and more of the explanation and like more keys into the story.
Sounds fascinating. Yeah. So how do you keep things fresh and how do you keep
learning and educating yourself as a photographer?
Is that getting more difficult as you reach a higher standard?

(40:31):
I don't think so. I, for me, every year I focus in on one thing that I really
want to improve for the year.
For the past two years, it's been working on my color and having more of a cinematic color palette.
Like that one was so difficult for me. It actually took two years till I feel
like I like, okay, this is where I want to be. And then before that it was compositing
and just different things.

(40:52):
But this year, my focus has been really going back to creating images with significant meaning.
I feel like I've been commissioned to do so many things that are eye-catching.
I'm like, I want to go back to creating things that have real,
like the book that I made for COVID, real deep meaning.
So that's kind of my focus this year. But yeah, I feel like there's always like,

(41:14):
I remember being younger and thinking like, oh, when I get this and this and
this, I will have arrived.
And I've achieved most of those goals now. And I'm like, I don't feel like I've arrived.
Like, I don't feel like I'm this great photographer that I always wanted to
be like, there's so much further to go. So I don't think I'll ever stop learning.
That's that's the funny thing, isn't it? You'd never never do arrive.

(41:36):
I think it is the danger is if you think you have. Yes. Then you stop learning
and you stop doing new things.
That's the moment you're sliding back down is when you think you've arrived. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's a warning to anybody out there who thinks they might be getting there.
So with your images, with with meaning, creating stories around images,

(41:59):
is it something that you like to do? do you like to do a body of work quite regularly?
So you've done the one like for COVID.
So what you're doing now, are you again working on another body of work or do
you generally work on individual projects?
Yeah, now I like to do a body of work because I took an adult continuing education

(42:21):
class in 2019 at the Art Institute of Chicago.
And the art teacher looked at me and she goes, why don't you try a series?
And I was like, what's a series?
I had never even considered that as a concept.
And she challenged me to do that. And all of a sudden, when I took one concept
and tried to see if I could evolve it six different ways, but all the pictures

(42:43):
to say the same thing and to have a flow to the images,
it really just changed my world.
And when some of these concepts are so deep, like one photo just can't do it
justice, like saying it six different ways or 12 different ways or whatever
really resonates with people differently.
But it also solidifies things in my mind because sometimes I'm like,

(43:06):
I can't decide if I should do this or maybe I should do this.
And it's like, okay, well, I'll do this image and then I'll save that other idea for the next image.
And if any photographers out there haven't worked in a series,
especially for non-client work, I would definitely recommend trying it and see
how it just changes your brain around creating concepts.
It gives you an opportunity to test ideas as well and see, well,

(43:30):
which way resonates with people more?
How could I get this person to connect with this topic a little bit better?
And if you've got a series like that, yeah, you can try slightly different approaches
along the way with that. That's interesting.
Let's just rewind in your career a little bit and go back to when you were doing

(43:51):
mainly weddings with Jeff.
A lot of photographers when they start
out start out thinking oh i
need to make some money i'll do weddings very few
of them end up where you guys
did you know very few of them end up doing well and seeming to enjoy it and
and it's all going great there's a lot of people that start out with that and

(44:14):
then tail off and or they do something different after a while what do you think
then when it was about weddings that appealed to you and that made it work for you too?
Yeah. Oh, there's multiple answers to that.
So I feel like the weddings, it was easier for us to get into that because when
I met Jeff and we worked, we worked at one wedding studio and then we moved

(44:36):
to a different wedding studio and we worked for other people.
And the greatest part is that I got to like cut my teeth, so to speak,
on somebody else's company.
So any complaints that I had, like they would tell me, but lucky enough,
I didn't have to deal with the customers complaining because ultimately,
like, as you're learning, you're going to get complaints and some weddings are crazy.

(44:59):
So just having somebody, somebody else to book me.
And they would sometimes book us like Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
And then we got to learn three weddings.
And I also, for a year before they would give me my own wedding,
I went out as an assistant photographer.
So having learned all of the different complaints and Jeff was also So the director of photography.
So he was the one specifically who had to deal with complaints.

(45:22):
So then when we opened our own company.
We were able to already know how to do that, but also how to set expectations
where we could avoid any potential complaints.
So that made our life way easier having had done that.
But also there's another thing to be said about when you put all your eggs in
one basket, failure is not an option.

(45:44):
So it was really appealing to us to have a year in advance, like,
okay, worst case scenario, our business is at least going to make this much
because brides around here will book like one to three years in advance.
And then we at least knew, but I find that the average wedding photographer
stays in weddings for 11 years.

(46:04):
It's about 11 years where you start to get really like, it's such a physical
job where you're like, okay, I'm tired.
This is kind of over it. And I rarely see people stay longer than, than 11 years.
But I really feel like if you, you the key to staying in
that is again to have that gratitude and know like this is somebody's wedding
day like this is the happiest they're ever well

(46:26):
maybe not ever going to be but like this is such a special day for
them and to be invited as like part of
the family for a day and capture these moments is just really special
that they chose me to do that so part
of the skill set in a way is learning to deal
with complaints if you get them but and being able to develop a you know a way

(46:46):
of dealing with them in a positive way and also then being able to anticipate
when things might go wrong linds you say that would be part of a skill set you
need to develop to be a wedding photographer yeah a hundred percent i wouldn't at least with weddings.
Weddings around here, if you're in Chicago, it's an average of $80,000 for the
wedding is what they're spending.

(47:06):
And if you screw that up, you can get a lawsuit.
It can be really, really bad. And that's when I find a lot of wedding photographers
end it is because they got a complaint and they didn't know how to handle it.
And then they get a bad reputation and then that's the end.
And so, yeah, I think if you can, I always advise people, if you want to get

(47:27):
into weddings, you've got to work for somebody else first and maybe even travel
or live somewhere else for just a year or wedding season.
So you can learn like outside of your competition because a lot of photographers
aren't willing to train somebody local for just a year.
Whereas if you go a few hours away, you might find someone to train you for
a year and then you can go back.
Yeah. Would there be any types of people that you would say maybe weddings wouldn't be for you?

(47:56):
Well, you have to also kind of have a thick skin for weddings,
too, because you have to remember, like, people are very stressed out and you're
the only stranger in the room.
Like, they're with their closest family and they're going to be exactly who
they are, which I think is great being able to see people in that situation.
But, you know, they can also be snappy or, you know, they spend so much money

(48:18):
on this and it's not what they want. So you have to have kind of a thick skin
and understanding that.
And you also have to let go of, if you're a photographer who's really like,
this is my style and I stay true to my style, you're not going to survive that
long in weddings, in my opinion.
I find that like you have to have an attitude of this is the bride's day on whatever they want.

(48:41):
I've been hired to give them a product that they are looking for.
And the more you can keep that a little bit versatile and make them feel special
where it's about the photos you're creating for them as opposed to you sticking to your style.
But I also feel like if you can handle photography and the amount of people
that that is, then you could probably also handle weddings.

(49:01):
Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. So you then went on to to do more of the different
portrait genres and quite a few of those different ones, as you were saying
earlier, sort of children, family portraits and so on.
How did you make the decision to do that? Was it a business decision first and
foremost? Was it something you were interested in exploring?

(49:22):
What made you start to transition into doing some of these other genres as well?
Yeah, that was just purely being in my early 20s and needing money.
So before I got the job at the wedding studio, the first job I had was at the
picture people and then another portrait studio in the mall where we did hundreds
of weddings and not weddings, portrait sessions.

(49:44):
And there's nothing like, so we started on film cameras and we had the Mamiya
six something and it was, you had nine frames on a shot and they wanted five
sellable poses in nine frames in a seven minute session.
And that was the best education in the world because like you didn't push that
button unless you needed to.

(50:05):
And if you have the lowest sales average, like they were talking to you about
why your photography wasn't up to par.
So that was a great education like within just a few years I'd done thousands
of family portrait sessions and then once I had my son I moved into weddings
because that was more financially stable,
but then naturally people started asking for portraits and I was like well I

(50:26):
have that skill set so there's no reason that I wouldn't that I would turn that
money down and then also I find that like I get really like kind of bored and restless so it.
Seems like since we started our own studio every three years,
I've kind of added in a new genre.
But now with the composite photography, I think I'm just adding more genres
of that because, yeah, we've added everything into the studio that we can do.

(50:51):
So the slightly restless spirit that makes you want to explore more then. Yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting. I think I can relate to that.
I've photographed a variety of different genres since I first started out as a beginner.
And i've ended up in the
kind of products mainly which is the very sort of
nerdy introvert thing to do stuck in the

(51:13):
studio on your own and nobody has to talk to you kind of thing so it
started out with landscapes and again they don't talk back so there was there
was a thing that's i suppose is about the theme of most of my work has been
most of what i photograph doesn't doesn't tend to complain but oh man joe i
have such respect for you because i cannot do product photography to save my life.

(51:36):
Like we've tried a couple of times, like we had to do like wedding boutonnieres
or something. And I was like, I can't handle this. Like the amount of perfection and detail.
And I have a lot of respect for what you do, especially those watches. They're amazing.
For some reason, I like it. It's that kind of being able to spend time crafting something.

(51:58):
Having time with people is a luxury. You know,
if you're trying to take headshots of business people they haven't got all day
if you're trying to take pictures of people at weddings they've
got drinks to go and have they've got other things to go and do
they're waiting for food you know you haven't got that luxury of time it's quite
sort of pressured in in that respect and i i think you you've got to be able

(52:20):
to sort of work under pressure and work well with people to do those sort of
yeah genres i think yeah yeah that's absolutely true i think.
So product photography is a totally different ballgame. Yeah.
Different set of skill set, different
set of challenges. Still very challenging, just in a different way.
Yeah. We do compositing quite a bit, but a lot of it is just cleaning.

(52:46):
Cleaning and more cleaning. Yeah. Because everything has to look perfect.
And when you zoom in close on something, you suddenly realize,
yeah, I did clean it. And I did spray it with some compressed air to make sure
there wasn't anything on it.
But still something there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Nothing is ever quite as clean as you thought it might be.

(53:09):
Nothing is ever as clean as Photoshop, right? No, quite.
No. But the weird thing is when I started doing CGI, it's naturally 100% clean.
Yeah. Which doesn't actually look quite right either. Yeah, interesting.
The weird thing is you're kind of getting rid of F.R.U.D.
With the photos, but you're kind of having to add it in with the CGI to make

(53:34):
it look real and not fake. Yeah.
You've got this strange process where you're doing a composite where you've
got a product with the CGI background and you try to make one bit look better
and the other bit look a bit less perfect.
I never thought of that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Well, you know, that could be an idea for you along with your composite stuff.

(53:56):
Start creating things in CGI.
Yeah, that would be really cool. I'd love to learn that. Maybe that'll be the next thing.
Start sculpting some dragons or something. Right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Do you do photography much outside of your business? Is there a lot that you do for fun?
So, I mean, some people often do something completely different.

(54:17):
So some people might enjoy just photographing, you know, butterflies and birds
and things like that for a bit of fun when they go out on a walk.
Is photography something that very much stays in the business or is it come
out in other areas of life for you as well?
No, not like taking pretty photos, but, you know, I feel like the composite
photography and creating things that are just for me are really the hobby.

(54:40):
So I do have cameras a lot when I travel, especially if I'm never going back
to that place, but it's never just to like, have a nice memory of this place.
It's always just for stock photos that I can use to create something really
cool later, but no, not into birds or anything like that.
So does that mean you have, don't have many family photos either then?

(55:01):
Cause a lot of people, when you see them on traveling, they take,
they take pictures of each other often in the way of the landmark that we're trying to photograph.
It could sometimes be the photographer's curse. So you turn to your husband
or your wife and you say, get out of the way. I'm trying to take a nice photo of it.
You know, it's funny because I am like, if I'm going to take a photo,

(55:22):
like a portrait of a person, like I want the good light and the long lens and
I need the reflectors and all the stuff.
And I'm either like a hundred percent or I'm like, no, just take it with the iPhone.
Like the iPhone is great. We can use that. So it is one extreme or the other.
And usually when we're traveling, it's all, if I want to capture the memory,
I usually end up doing that on my phone because it's just more accessible.

(55:44):
I can put it on social media right away. And yeah, that's usually more my purpose. Yeah.
Well, it sounds like you've got quite a lot going on with your photography and your creativity.
It sounds like creativity just runs through your veins, really. Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, it's fantastic. And where would you suggest people go if they want to

(56:06):
see a little bit more of your imagery, if they want to get into your style and find out a bit more?
Where would be the best places to keep up with the latest work?
Yeah, I am most active on Instagram. That's where I'm always posting the latest
things. So I'm rachelowen613 on Instagram. I'm also on Facebook as well.
I have my website, which is rachelowen.com. Rachel Owen, O-W-E-N without the

(56:31):
S. A lot of people add on an S on there, but it's just Owen.
And on my website, you can find more. That's where the book is available for purchase.
I have different things like image critique. If someone wants an image critique
before a competition, I also have like private mentorship where I can help guide
people to create a whole image. And I'm doing my first workshop this coming August.

(56:51):
It's going to be August 11th through 14th here in the Chicago area.
And we're just out in the suburbs, so it's not nearly as expensive as actual Chicago.
But that is going to be all about how to tell a story through photography.
And it's not going to have a ton of Photoshop or anything, more just like how
you can use color to convey a mood, expression, composition,

(57:11):
just different ways to communicate specific messages.
That sounds great. Yeah. Really interesting. And that's information about that.
Is that available on your website as well?
Yeah, that's available on my website, rachelowen.com as well.
Yeah. Well, it's been really great talking to you and thank you so much for
sharing your thoughts and your story with us.

(57:32):
Thanks, Rachel, for being willing to be on the podcast. Thank you, Joe. This was a joy.
I really, I really, I always love talking to you.
That's great. Thank you very much. And thank you everybody for listening to
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Music.