March 25, 2025 • 44 mins
Abdul talks about being a basketball referee, what it takes, what it means and how you do it.
My favourite quote of the episode is "One thing from memory, I can remember, which has helped me in life as well. What I used to do, I didn't think about it, but when they explained it to me, I would subconsciously, depending on who my co-official was, I would, if they were less experienced, I'd actually drop my standard to kind of match theirs rather than staying where I was and making them, I guess, come up to my level. Which helped me as well in life rather than, so kind of keeping myself where I need to be rather than lowering. So when I refereed with people that were higher than me, I would actually step up my game to match theirs. And that's helped me in life and work in that where I, I try to stay true to myself rather than switching to someone else's standards."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to Forrest.Chat, where wetalk about individual endeavor in
Western Australia, what it takes,what it means, and how you do it.
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, andin today's episode we are talking
with Abdul-Raouf Mohamed-Isa,about basketball refereeing.
Abdul started his refereeing careeraround 2002 and over his journey
(00:31):
reached the point of refereeingfor the State Women's League.
Welcome to Forrest.Chat, Abdul.
Hi Paul.
Thanks for having me on Forrest.Chat.
It's great to have you here.
Abdul, Abdul, people have seen all sortsof things about basketball or what is.
Basketball.
(00:52):
So basketball is a team sport.
You've got five players on the courtfrom each team at once, and the goal
is to score, score more points thanthe other team by the end of the game.
at the junior level, a game can usuallygo for two 20 minute halves, and as
you get to the, I guess, Olympic andinternational level, they'll be playing.
(01:15):
10 to 12 minute quarters and the clockstops after every stoppage, whereas
juniors because of time schedulesand that the clock's usually running.
But yeah, the main goal is to scoremore points than the other team.
Okay.
I didn't realize there was, uh,such a difference between the,
I'll say the duration of play.
Yeah, it's for juniors becauseof schedules and time, slots and
(01:42):
recreation centers having limited,court space, they need to keep quite
a tight, ship in terms of time slots.
Whereas once you get to the high levels,because it's usually just the one game on
the court they can stop the clock everytime there's a stoppage, timeout, foul.
And it, at, at that professional level,you can get quite close in the game.
(02:04):
So you need to be quite, veryspecific with the timing.
a lot more can happen in the short spaceof time as you get to the high levels.
Yeah, the bigger guys can travel thecourt, much faster than the little guys.
Yeah.
And they, even at the early stage,you don't even have a shot clock.
So in basketball, mostshot clocks are 24 seconds.
(02:25):
which gets introduced when you'rein under 16, under eighteens at
possibly the state league level.
Or just a bit below that, depending ifthey have the resources to actually run
the shop clock, And then in college,I'm pretty sure it's a 32nd shop lop.
there's no kind of one sizefits all in terms of rules.
(02:46):
Also under tens, we'llplay with a size five.
We switch to under a sizesix ball in under fourteens.
And then once you go to under six,uh, under sixteens, under eighteens
and higher, it's a size seven ballfor men's, but females only go
as high as a size six basketball.
So there's another difference as well.
(03:06):
Wow.
So it's far more, intricate as far asthe sport goes and, and where you are
and what your experience might even be,I guess from a gameplay perspective.
Yeah, definitely.
Um.
Another thing I justremembered was under tens.
Usually they'll lower the ringif there's access to that.
so yeah, some recreation centers will havethe option of lowering the basketball ring
(03:27):
to about eight feet for the juniors, justto give them a better chance of scoring.
Especially you can imagine howshort some of the players are
when they're under 10 because.
It'll be kids that, it might be an under10 age group, but they'll have kids that
are under eight, under six, possibly.
Right.
So there's good ways that they canactually account for the group of
players that you're dealing with.
(03:49):
You talked about a shot clock.
What, how does that work?
So the way the shot clock works isonce a team has possession of the ball,
they have 24 seconds to attempt a shot.
The shot clock will resetif it hits the ring.
if they shoot the ball and it hits thebackboard or doesn't hit the ring at all,
then the shop clock keeps running and.
(04:10):
If it gets to zero, then that'sa violation, so the other team
gets the ball from the side.
Oh, like a foul if you pushedsomeone or, or something like that.
Yeah.
So it's just an, it's anotherviolation, which in essence
it helps to speed up the game.
'cause you can imagine, let's saya team's up by two points with a
minute left on the, time clock inthe junior levels with no shot clock.
(04:32):
They could potentially just pass the ballaround for a whole minute, which watching
that as a spectator would be quite boring.
So having the shot clock introduced.
At, higher skill levels speeds up thegame and keeps the game interesting.
Right?
So then there's also less likelihoodthat a game will go on for like four
hours or something like that because,uh, probably not really because you've,
(04:56):
you, you, you're actually in gameplayand your clock will be ticking.
yeah.
It's more keeps the game flowing.
that's the idea of the, even as abasketball referee, one of the ideas is
to keep the game flowing as much as youcan without it getting out of control.
I've seen the, uh, markings on the floorin a basketball court, and I've got
that, uh, circle off from the, ring.
(05:19):
And then they've got a couple of linesand they mean something, don't they?
Yeah, so there's a semicircle underneaththe ring, which depending on the
league, it's called the no charge zone.
So you can't actually, inbasketball, there's a offensive
foul where if a defensive playeris standing their ground facing
(05:42):
of the attacker.
if the offensive player is the onethat actually initiates the contact,
they can get called for a charge andthen it goes to the defensive team.
But in that semis right underneath thering, you can't get called for a charge.
and then you've got the keyway,which is the straight or angled
lines, depending again on the court.
and that keyway.
(06:02):
Is, there's a thrill there where it's,you can't spend more than three seconds
in the keyway as a offensive player.
and then the line at the top,that's the free throw line.
So when a player gets fouled on a shootingfoul, that's where they shoot free
throws from, which are worth one point.
And then can you get more thanone point on a. On a shot,
on a free throw.
No, the reason they call it as freethrow is because on a shooting foul,
(06:25):
that's where they'll shoot theirfree throws from, and there's no
defensive players as such in their way.
Whereas during normal gameplay,you'll score two points inside
the bigger D, which isthe three point line.
So inside that large Dthat's, um, two points.
Whereas if you shoot outsidethe D it's three points.
If your foot's on the line, it's a twopointer, you need all parts of your
(06:48):
body behind the line when you releasethe shot for it to be a three pointer.
And the three pointer is worthmore because you've thrown
it in from further away.
Yes.
Yeah.
So you need to be a bit more accurateand tend to be more effort than the two.
have you had some interestingplays that have, come in?
Yeah.
So another thing that can happen iswhile you're shooting, if you get fouled
(07:10):
on the shot and your shot goes in, sopotentially you can get a four point play.
So you'll shoot the three.
You've already released a shot, theball's gone in and someone fouls you
while you're still in the active shooting.
technically the active shootingis, until you hit the ground again.
So let's say you take ajump shot, so you've jumped.
Taken a shot, you've released the ball,someone's fouled you before you've
(07:33):
actually touched the ground again.
Then you can potentially get four points.
'cause you'll score the three pointer andget an and one on the free throw line.
but you have to put that free throw in.
Yes.
Yeah.
You still have to score the free throw.
It's not a, it's not free in termsof you just get it automatically.
You still have to score it.
Yes.
have you had some games thathave got a bit out of control?
(07:55):
Uh, yeah.
You do get, some games wherethe players and even spectators
can get a bit too involved.
as a referee, you do have to, yeah,like I said before, you wanna let the
game flow but not get it outta control.
So it's a lot of preventative things.
As such, when you're refereeing it.
You wanna be out of the way, butyeah, also keep things in line.
(08:20):
in terms of like fights andthat, I've been pretty lucky.
Nothing's got too out of control, butI've seen other games where, yeah, players
and spectators can get quite rowdy.
That's probably being generous.
AB all.
Yeah, that's probablyputting it in lighter terms.
Yeah.
They'll get very, yeah, you canget physical and not, so rather
(08:40):
than just verbal abuse, you can getsome physical abuse in games and
Yeah, parents getting involved andspectators getting involved and, yeah.
Yeah.
There should only be 10 players onthe court at once, but every now
and then you might get a few peoplerunning the court and that's when
you know things have got outta hand.
(09:00):
it must be your role at that pointto, I'll say shut it down somehow.
Yeah.
So at the, at like low levels, you mighthave like a one court manager managing
like a whole rec center, whereas as youget to the higher levels, you'll have
security, you'll have, other staff thatcan get involved and separate people.
(09:21):
Yeah, at the junior level, it's moreabout, I guess talking to or getting the
adults or the responsible adults to removethe players who are causing trouble.
And what levels have youactually refereed at?
I started locally at orrec center in Vic Park.
It was called the Park Center'cause I played there as well.
(09:44):
So that's just local on a Sunday morning.
And then other local competitionsI refereed at, Kalamunda during the
week at Rio and also mom daring.
I did a bit of private schoolsports after school sports.
so various schools after, after school,and then, so from the domestic level,
(10:08):
next will be kinda what they call the.
It's like a regional level WABL, uh,the West Australind Basketball League.
And then after that, the next levelis the state basketball league,
which that was as high as I went.
I did a women, I did women's statebasketball league for one season,
which they now call NBL One West.
(10:29):
So it sounds like there's a range ofdifferent, competitions or leagues.
that are going on that youmentioned about four there, so,
Yeah.
And then if you want to go higherin the state league of the National
League, and then after national,then international competitions like
world championships in the Olympics.
So people who are playing the sportand also refereeing, they have
(10:51):
opportunities at, uh, all of those levels.
I guess another interesting competitionthat I had a chance to referee out
was, the under 14 Girls AustralianClub Championships back in 2008.
So that's where they get clubsfrom different states, coming
together to play as their clubs.
So not as a state team, but as theirclubs in a, competition against other
(11:13):
clubs from other states, which gives them.
Not just the clubs.
A chance to, see what opponents arelike in other states at that same
level, but also the referees to engagewith other referees from other states.
And you, you pick up ideas.
You, you learn a lot from howcompetitions are run elsewhere.
(11:33):
That sounds like a great wayfor the sport to get there.
Different state bodies and statecompetitions to, to run at a more even
level across the field, which makes.
National competitionsat each of those level.
Probably more fair as well.
Yeah, I think it, it, I only had theexperience of doing one of those club
(11:55):
championships once and what you noticeis usually the higher populated states
have a, 'cause they've got a higherpool of um, people to choose from.
Usually the level is higher.
It's not always the case, but becauseyou've got more people to choose from.
There's more competition and usuallythe level of the game is higher in
those states in terms of running thecompetitions, like organizationally.
(12:19):
Yeah, there's, there's a way you canget things to run more uniformly,
um, which helps later on, obviouslyfor states when they get together.
We've heard a little bit about, whatbasketball is Is there somewhere
people can go to find out more?
Is there like a central,you mentioned WABL.
yeah.
So in WA basketball, WA would bethe organization to check out.
(12:44):
They'd have a website or if youjust want to check out like a
local domestic league, just headto your nearest recreation center.
And most recreation centers will have,teams that are either looking for players
or you could, if you've got enough peopleto actually register your own team.
And that's kind of how they get started.
And you only need five.
(13:05):
So that's, uh, quite achievable for agood number of people, I would imagine.
Yeah.
So five's a good start.
it can be quite high intensity ofthe game, so it's good to have one
or two substitutes on the bench.
Uh, when you're starting, like dependingon where you're playing, five is enough.
And from experience, when we had threeor four show up at a local game, there's
(13:27):
usually one or two people hanging aroundthat are willing to play another game or.
That would just, it's better to havelike a body on court than to start
off with less mo Most domestic leagueswill let you start with four and then
maybe the fifth one's running late.
Or you can just grab someone randomoff the side that wants to have a game.
So there's still a, good amount ofcamaraderie by the sound of things,
(13:49):
amongst people who would be therebecause they love the sport too.
and they're willing tojump in and have a go.
Yeah, exactly.
'cause you don't wanna see a team,so if you don't have enough players,
you'll have to forfeit the game.
which, yeah, no one wants to see that.
They actually wanna, they, especiallyat the local level, people want
to go there to participate.
So yeah, they'd rather see a gamehappen rather than not at all.
(14:14):
So Abdul, what does it takeyou to be a basketball referee?
so a few of the things that it takes tobe a referee, um, knowledge of the game.
Definitely.
Like there is a, there's a rule bookthat, like any rule book, it can come
down to interpretation of the rules.
(14:34):
I, I came from a playing backgroundfirst, so I, I did love the game
and I wanted to learn more about it,and that's why I became a referee.
But, uh, yeah, you gotta be quitepatient as well, especially what I find
with the junior levels, you're moreeducating than enforcing the rules.
Uh, otherwise it, if youwere to officiate a game.
(14:55):
As it is by the book.
At those lower levels, you'd be stoppingthe game every five to 10 seconds.
Whereas yeah, you want the game to flow.
you need to have like good communicationskills and even being able to
manage people, um, most games.
You're going to, you'regoing to have two referees.
sometimes one, if they're short onreferees, uh, at the high levels
(15:18):
they'll have three referees on court.
you need to have a base level offitness 'cause you will be running
up and down the court just asmuch, if not more than the players.
'cause you can imagine they'vegot five players on each team.
They don't, they will move a lot.
Whereas there's only two refereesand you have to be able to see
the game and move with the game.
(15:39):
Being able to read the game's a big thing.
so coming from a playingbackground, that helps.
But you don't need to specifically haveplayed basketball to referee the game.
It helps though, because then youcan understand where the players are
moving, what the ball's doing, andum, yeah, definitely an understanding
of the game helps even if you'venever actually played it yourself.
but I'd say, I'd say communicationwould be a big thing.
(16:01):
'cause you are, you're tryingto concentrate on the game,
but you'll have, you need tocommunicate with your core official.
You need to communicate with the benchwhen you're making foul calls and.
Other things like that.
So that's probably one of the,more important things to have
good communication skills.
Do you have a set of, signals?
Yes.
So, when you are stopping, when youblow the whistle, your hand will.
(16:27):
Hallways or most of thetime go up in the air.
Uh, if it's a foul,it'll be a closed fist.
If it's a violation, an open fist.
Um, that signifies if you, if you arerefereeing a game where there is a stop
clock for every whistle, then yeah, itsignifies to the bench to stop the clock.
when you are calling a foul to thebench, depending on the number of the
(16:49):
player, you can use one or two hands.
A closed fist means 10, and then youcan, the other hand will show one to five
depending on the number on the player.
So at, at like the junior levels, they'llsuggest no numbers between four and
15, just so that you're not confusingone, two, and three with a score.
(17:09):
So that's why the lowestnumber is usually a four.
And then the highest, number 15,because that's the most you can
have with one fist and five fingers.
that's, yeah.
So when you're signifying, um,or signaling the number of a foul
to the bench, that's the number.
And then the type of calls, afew kind of foul calls would
be like a hands, hands foul.
So like a chopping of the arms overeach other, a holding foul where you're
(17:32):
holding one wrist with the other hand.
There's, yeah, a pushing foul.
So you kind of motionand push with both hands.
and yeah, so that, that's just a few ofthe basic ones and then the violations.
You've got a travel where one hand kindof rolls over the top of the other.
score.
Anytime there's a score, youkind of signal to the bench.
They know, 'cause you're on thecourt, you'll be able to see if
(17:55):
it's a three or a two pointer.
So with a two pointer, you justsignal two points with your
fingers to the towards the bench.
Whereas with a three, if they'veattempted a three, you put one
hand up with three fingers.
If it's a successful three, the otherhand goes up with three fingers.
Whereas if it's unsuccessful, then youjust drop the hand that you put up first.
yeah.
So that's a few of the kind of calls.
(18:16):
That you would make And, yeah, so foulcalls are the, are more, um, obvious
ones 'cause you see them a lot moregetting called towards the bench.
Whereas if the violation calls, you'llput your hand up in the air, open
hand so people know it's a stoppage.
And then you'll make the signalof the violation if it's a stop
clock, a shot clock violation,or a, a travel or double dribble.
(18:40):
Um, but usually with violations.
I'd say most people don't noticethem as much because you're not
calling 'em to the bench as such.
Okay.
So you've really got a couple ofdifferent communicating systems,
so you do need to be clear about.
What all of those things mean, andI gather the, there'll be a common
set that becomes known pretty easily.
(19:01):
Yeah.
The, the, the more, I guess, um,rarer calls, which so it's uniform
in terms of calls, worldwide.
but yeah, there's ones whichare a lot more common that
you'll see more often and.
The other reason you, signal to thescore bench is 'cause they'll have a
score sheet, which they won't recordspecifically what each foul is, but they
(19:23):
need to record personal fouls for eachplayer because after, five or six fouls,
depending on the league, that playerwill be foul out of the game and they
won't be able to participate anymore.
So you can't, you can't justfoul continuously as a player,
otherwise, eventually you'llget fouled out of the game.
So that's, that's all a part about,I guess, keeping it fair and, you're
trying to keep the game moving.
(19:43):
And if you get someone who'sfouling, they're actually
stopping the game regularly.
So you can actually move them offthe field so that they don't, keep
interrupting the game, so to speak.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So in terms of personal fouls,five or six, most of the time
it's five, but some leagues havesix fouls for a personal player.
but there are other fouls,like a disqualifying foul
or intentional foul, which.
(20:04):
Or un sports like soro, whichcan, they can automatically get
ejected from the game if thefoul deems is deemed necessary.
If there's a foul, that's how cannot putthis, not within the spirit of the game.
You, they can automatically getejected just for that one foul.
another thing with fouls isif, if a game's played in half.
(20:27):
If there's 18,000 every foul afterthat, we'll be shooting fouls
rather than just from the side.
So that's another, I guess disincentivefor people to foul too much.
'cause it will put the other team onthe free throw line more often than not.
So there's a lot to therules obviously with,
what can happen during the gameand actually drive the game
(20:47):
to, cause fouls and and so on.
And there's also a system almostbuilt in to try and limit I.
Just how much of that goes on.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, so it's, and,and the game's evolved.
so much, I dunno when, but the,even, there was, there was a point, I
can't remember exactly when, but therenever used to be a three point line.
(21:10):
So it meant that It wouldcrowd the key way cause.
There was no point in shootingany further out because you didn't
score any more points and therenever used to be a shot clock.
And yeah.
So yeah, the game has evolved andmost of the time it's to help the game
flow, keep it interesting, exciting.
So how do you keep upwith all those rules?
(21:31):
like anything, there's, you've got therule book and every year they'll bring out
a kind of update with what has changed.
So you can, buy a new rule book everyyear, or if you've, you've got a
rule book which you've had for years,you just have to, um, keep updated.
Every year they'll give you like, what haschanged from the previous year's version.
(21:51):
And do they have any like processor meetings amongst referees,
that sort of thing going on?
yeah.
So in general, like from my experienceat the start of the year, you'll
have I guess points of emphasis,things that from feedback from the
last year that they want to focus on.
(22:12):
So, yeah, it's good to have, youknow, three to four key focus points
so that the referees are all on thesame page, for the following season.
The focus points may change throughoutthe season, but by having those meetings
with officials saying, let, let'sfocus on these kind of key points.
So that there's a bit of consistency.
(22:32):
so what, yeah, that's one of the,another, one of the Cs that I remember,
it was consistency, communication.
I can't remember what the last C was,but, uh, yeah, it was, it was, yeah.
And that, that's whatyou want in the game.
You want, when you're a player,you, you don't mind the calls
as long as they're consistent.
And that's where the meetingsbetween referees help.
And you also have some communitythen, I guess amongst your, your
(22:55):
referees that because you'regetting together and talking about
what's going on with the rules andobviously the points of interest and
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
And look, because you are all kind of,you got all, your goal is the same.
You want people to enjoy the game.
You want people to enjoy watching it.
And as a referee, my goal is always,you know, you do, you're not.
(23:17):
People aren't there to watch you.
They're there to watch the game.
So building that community betweenthe referees, it helps grow the game
from the grassroots all, all theway up to the professional level.
And how much, physical fitness andtraining do you need to do to, be there?
at the lower levels, the skilland you are usually, most of the
(23:38):
time taller than the, uh, players.
So you can see a lot more.
Whereas as the game grows and you get tothe high levels you need, your fitness
needs to be, pretty high because.
The players are getting tired.
You're getting tired, butyou are all having to make
decisions while you're fatigued.
So it's good to have a high fitnesslevel so that when you're making
(24:01):
these decisions, when you're tired,they're still the same ones you are
making at the start of the game andkeeping that consistency throughout.
Yeah, so having a, having a good fitnesslevel, I'm not sure in terms of like
comparison, how to compare what typeof fitness level you have, because
every game's gonna be different andwe, as the referees, we can't control.
(24:23):
The pace of the game as such.
'cause it's the players that arecontrolling the ball and they
can control how the game goes.
But it's better to be prepared for ahigh intensity up and down game than to
come thinking that it's just gonna be aslower passing the ball a lot and yeah.
So it's, it's better to be preparedfor like, those kind of high intensity
games that just, you're running upand down the court numerous times.
(24:46):
One example, I, I did.
Kind of measure how far ranin just a local, school game.
And it would've been aboutthree to four Ks in 40 minutes.
It's a lot of stop start though.
It is, yeah.
Very stop start,
I imagine with a, especially ifyou've got a shot, clock in place.
But you're gonna be traveling,you know, 20 seconds in one
(25:08):
direction and And 20 in the other.
Yes.
Yeah.
Poten.
Yeah.
So yeah, potentially you could basicallybe going up and down the court every.
15 or 20 seconds.
unless of course the offensiveteam gets the rebound and
then it stays on that half.
But yeah, there are some games.
And look, if the, um, offensive teamhas a style of game where they're
(25:30):
just putting up shots every fiveto 10 seconds, you could Yeah.
Be up and down the court.
After every shot.
That's, that's, yeah,they're, they're the game.
So yeah, you really need to haveyour fitness level up and also just
be on the ball and be ready to headup and down the court every play.
And what did you do tomaintain that level of fitness?
so I still played when I free, I stillplayed at least two or three games a
(25:54):
week and that kept my fitness level up.
And at the time I was probably, well Ihonestly, when, when I was kinda referring
a lot, I would from, I'd play Monday.
I'd play and referee on a Monday night.
I'd play and referee on a Wednesday night.
Thursday night, I'd play a game,and Saturday I'd referee for
(26:18):
about three or four hours, andthen Sunday I'd referee again.
So I guess my fitness was getting keptup by just the amount of basketball
I was involved in rather than any.
other activities
you're doing enough of it thatit was actually a training
program in and of itself.
Yes.
Yeah, very.
Yeah, very much so.
(26:38):
And as the game is you, itis, it's not constant running.
It, it, it's very stop start.
and the intensity.
Like if I were to compareit to the running, I do now.
I just, an example, I filled in for afriend about five or six years ago and
I thought, yeah, I'll be all right.
(26:58):
I'll be able to run around for 40 minutes.
Um, we did have one substitute.
And yeah, after the game, Ithought, I forgot how intense
a game of basketball can be.
Yeah.
We've had a good chat about, what ittakes you to be a basketball referee.
Abdul, let's have a little breaknow, and after the break we'll
have a look at what it means.
(27:26):
We've had a look at what it takes.
Now let's have a lookat what it means, Abdul.
What does it mean that you areable to be a basketball referee?
So for me, what the reason I becamea basketball referee is I did want
to learn more about the game afterplaying it for so long, and I was
(27:51):
relatively quiet as a kid and.
It, it got me out of my comfort zone.
So in terms of personaldevelopment, that's why I also
chose to become a referee.
It brought me outta my shelland it taught me a lot of, um,
I guess, valuable life skills.
it's definitely, I. Made me more assertiveas a person and being able to communicate,
(28:18):
concisely as well with uh, 'cause Yeah,when you're a free, yeah, the game flows
so quickly, you don't have a chancereally to have those long conversation.
You have to be quite concisewith your communication.
I do love the community and that's onereason, even though I stopped refereeing
for at least, uh, close to 10 years,um, I've kept in touch with a few people
(28:41):
from the community and they're always,it's one of those things where they're
always on the call out for more referees.
It's, it's definitely not for everyone.
It, yeah, it takes a lot of patience.
You need, you do need to have.
Thick skin at times and having, havinga good focus as well, um, on the game.
(29:04):
for what it means to my, I guess,family, what it's helped with, being
able to relate to people at alldifferent levels of the game, and
not just basketball, but rememberingwhat it's like at that grassroots
level to learn something new and.
(29:25):
and like I said before about the youngerage groups, it is more about education.
Um, I'll give you one example whereI was referring under tens game and
I've made a violation call, likea double dribble or a travel, and
the first question I ask, I don't.
Like to assume no one knows.
(29:46):
So I'll be like, I'll ask, not justthe person I've called the violation
on, but just all the 10 players.
I was like, um, I'll say, doyou know why I called that?
And some will and others won't.
So I'll, I'll go.
Okay.
So I'll explain it to the people thatI. Want to listen and then as, yeah, as
they get older, it's, it is more about,um, yeah, keeping, enforcing the rules.
(30:11):
there's always gonna be education,but yeah, it's definitely, uh,
it changes throughout the game.
So, yeah, it's helped me relate tolike, like my nieces and nephews and
that as they're learning differentsports or learning in general.
And, uh, yeah, so the comm, it'sbeen good to kind of keep in touch
with the community here and there,or if I see them out and about.
(30:35):
referees aren't always the most favoritepeople to, we, we, we, we are human.
We, we are going to make mistakes.
and, but it's about, Iguess being accountable and.
When you make a mistake,knowing how to improve from it.
And so other things as a referee,uh, as you get to the, even at the
(30:55):
local level, but as you get to thehigh levels, we have referee coaches
who will watch us referee and they'llgive us feedback after the games just.
On things that, so they've noticed,like, habits or small things that
we might be consistently missing,certain types of fouls or violations.
(31:16):
One thing from memory, I can remember,which has helped me in life as well.
What I used to do, I didn't think aboutit, but when they explained it to me, I
would subconsciously, depending on whomy co-official was, I would, if they were
less experienced, I'd actually drop mystandard to kind of match theirs rather
than staying where I was and makingthem, I guess, come up to my level.
(31:41):
Which helped me as well in life ratherthan, so kind of keeping myself where
I need to be rather than lowering.
So when I refereed with people thatwere higher than me, I would actually
step up my game to match theirs.
And that's helped me in life andwork in that where I, I try to
stay true to myself rather thanswitching to someone else's standards.
(32:05):
Um, so that's something, yeah, Iremember reading some feedback and,
yeah, so it's, yeah, getting that,I guess honest feedback from people
who are a neutral voice ratherthan from the teams or the players.
One experience I do rememberquite, memorable is I was
referring a, it was a finals game.
(32:27):
It was a very close game.
and one of the parents from thelosing team actually came up to
me and the other official, andthey actually congratulated us.
and they said that was one of the bestgames they've watched, I remember.
We were very consistent and yeah, you,you do get a lot from usually the losing
team coming up to you and actuallythanking you for a well officialed game.
(32:50):
yeah.
So it's those small things that, yeah,the appreciation you get because it's,
it's like anything, people usuallyremember your mistakes, but they
don't remember what you've done well.
They'll point out those kind ofmistakes you made rather than
remembering that overall youactually did a pretty good job.
So yeah.
Yeah, it's definitely, it's helped,it's helped me grow as a person and
helped me, not just in referringbasketball, but life in general
(33:15):
is, isn't it amazing how you learnthings in one environment that transfers
across to other parts of your life?
It's a little bit like self-reflection.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It um, well, obviously at the time whenyou are in the moment, you don't have
much time to reflect and think about it,but when you, um, have time outside of
(33:35):
that, that area, you're like it, yeah.
You can transfer those skills thatyou've learned or just small things
that stand out for you that, um, youcan use in other parts of your life.
That's, it's amazing to havethat, uh, as an opportunity.
Basketball Has a lot of impactfor people in their lives.
(33:56):
what do you see Peoplecoming to basketball that
they get out of basketball?
when you start, it's probably moreof a, that social aspects seeing,
um, especially at the local level.
You, you get to see the samepeople every day, like for example.
I played with, my older brotherand some old high school friends.
(34:16):
So ev even after, after school, we'dstill be seeing each other once a week.
It was like a little catch up and thenwe'd have like a little annual thing.
So yeah, it was a good way tokeep that social connection.
and then I coached my little brotherfor a couple of seasons, and that was
a good way to kind of connect with him.
And also, we even played, um,mixed basketball with our family.
(34:37):
So the three brothers, my sister,and my mom and cousin, we used to
kind of, I think my sister-in-lawmight have joined as well.
So yeah, it's just, it's a wayto keep socially connected.
and it's, it's, it's a weekly thing.
Most, most times you'll beseeing each other once a week.
You kind of look forward to.
that catch up or just seeing that personfor that, thing once a week and it, it
(34:58):
builds a lot of, uh, it's a lot liketeam bonding and teamwork and that Yeah.
It's, it's, it's that, I thinkit is that connection with that
community, that you build andmeeting other people and even if.
So one another example is, uh, peoplethat I played against as opponents,
you know, five, 10 years down thetrack, I happened to bump into them.
(35:19):
Never knew their name, but you know,you'd recognize each other by face
and yeah, you'd still, you know, thememories come flooding back when you,
you are like, oh, do you remember whenwe used to play down at this rec center?
And yeah, just, yeah, you, you,you never kind of, I guess forget.
The feelings and the memories that you'vebuilt while you are playing the game and
being involved in that area of your life.
(35:41):
That's an important part of,having a life history, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
you are not gonna remembereverything, but yeah.
So it's kind of small momentsthat come back to you.
When you see a familiar face or goto a familiar area that you've been
to earlier on, um, yeah, the memoriesdefinitely come flooding back.
Is there any other aspect of,basketball that, impacts on your life?
(36:05):
so another, I guess anotherviewpoint that I had.
I loved watching basketballand I, I still do love watching
it, and that's another thing.
Um, when my brother and a few friendswe were, I. Season members that
watching the Perth Wildcats, so that'sanother thing that, you know, every
week or every fortnight, it was agood way to kind of catch up with
(36:26):
each other and watch, enjoy the game.
Just watching.
Uh oh.
It is, I must say it is.
Since becoming a referee, it washarder to just watch and enjoy a game
'cause you're constantly analyzing.
so I did, I had to kind of flick theswitch when I watched the Game of
Basketball and not to, I guess analyzeit or watch for those kind of, I
had to kind of, I feel like watchinga magic show, if you've got that.
(36:51):
Analytical mindset.
You're trying to figure out howthis works or, yeah, so when I was a
referee trying to watch the Game ofthe Spectator, I had to switch my brain
from a referee to a spectator and justenjoy the game rather than overanalyze
every single call or play I had.
Yeah.
It, it, it, it wasn't easy.
It, I still, I still do it now andagain, like, but yeah, definitely.
(37:12):
Try to enjoy the game just asa spectator, not as a referee.
I guess then as a, that helps you asa referee be to have that difference
in your thinking because you alsowanting the spectators to have that
focus on the game and not on on you.
So understanding that what you do as areferee can have a big impact on that.
(37:35):
Yeah, it's, it's a bit harderwhen you are actually refereeing.
'cause you have to be in that mindsetand you don't, it's harder to,
gauge the picture that people areseeing from a different perspective.
You understand it, but when you areactually refereeing it is, yeah.
You have to focus on the job.
And it is a bit harder tothink about that as such.
And that's where havingthat referee coach or.
(37:58):
Someone on the sideline who is in thatspectator position can see the whole
court and give you feedback on that.
And so while you are actually refereeing,you can focus on what you're doing.
Um, it it's in the back.
It is in the back of your mind.
But yeah, it's definitely not somethingyou think about while you're doing it.
It's more getting thatfeedback afterwards.
(38:20):
we've covered quite a lot about.
What it means that Abdulcan be a basketball referee.
We'll have a break now and after thebreak we'll talk about how you do it.
We've had a look at what itmeans to referee basketball.
(38:40):
Now let's have a look at how you do it.
Abdul, how would someone start,at least on their journey of
becoming a basketball referee?
So the best way to start is to goto your local recreation center or
local domestic competition and hide.
I'd ask either the manager of thecenter or even just one of the referees.
(39:02):
Who do I speak to to become a referee?
Most of the times they'll have whatthey call a Level zero referee course,
which is, just the basics of, the rulesand what it takes to become a referee.
and that, yeah, that, that would beyour starting point, just speaking
to, like a referee that you see orsomeone that organizes the referees.
(39:24):
Yeah.
So in terms of, I don't, there, therewould be like a website, but it's probably
best to speak to someone in person.
'cause they'll have like the localknowledge of when the next another
course is coming up or what's involved.
In becoming a referee
doesn't sound like it's, too bigof a hurdle for people to do,
like from a fitness perspectiveand, and those sorts of things.
(39:47):
Obviously, if you already have knowledgeabout the game, you'll be, you'll have a
bit of a leg up and, clearly there'll bethings to learn, like, how you signal.
But if you've been following games,you would've seen that already.
You'd at least know some of it.
and it sounds like there's a, an entrylevel course that you can do, which
would be, very helpful, I'm sure.
(40:07):
Yeah, and I think.
Look, they're always onthe call out for referees.
So if you show your interests,they'll before, if there isn't a
course coming up, they'll teach youa lot of the practical start of it.
They'll even probably help you.
So when you're first starting out as ajunior referee, you are, nowadays, I think
they wear like a yellow or green shirt sopeople know that you're learning they'll
(40:28):
teach you kind of the OnCore basics.
And then when a course comes up,you can go and do that so that
you are officially accredited.
and then yeah, there's different levelsif you wanna step up to the different,
levels of referring at higher leaguesand that, and yeah, in terms of fitness,
it's one of those things that's as longas you have a base level of fitness,
which is good, but as you referringmore, your fitness will improve as well
(40:50):
because of the games that you referee.
you'll start to get a feel forit and, get some practice at it
because you'll be there doing it.
Yeah, and like in from my ownexperience, even if you haven't, I
haven't referred for about 10 yearsand still being in touch with the
community or people that organized,referees for, rec centers or schools.
(41:11):
they're always on the lookoutand it's something that, a
bit like riding a bike, you.
Once you're back on the court, you doremember the rules may have changed,
but in terms of, referee game, yeah,a lot of the basics stay the same so
you can kind of jump back on and off.
if you lose touch, you can alwaysget back into it quite easily.
So based on that response, I'llask you, Abdul, what's next?
(41:33):
Yeah.
So for me, in terms of basketballrefereeing, I, I still stay in touch
in terms of just private school gamesafter work and that, I tried going
back into regular domestic refereeinglike during the week, but for me, it.
It was too much of a commitment,which I couldn't do at the time.
Um, and I, I've definitely drawn theline at not doing any more weekend games.
(41:57):
'cause I do remember how yourweekend pretty much just flew by.
I enjoyed it.
But your weekend pretty much was gonewhen you started referring on weekends.
'cause yeah, you'd get asked, left,right, and center, can you do this game?
Can you do that game?
So I, that's where I've drawn the line.
I. Nowadays I stick to, kind ofsemi-regularly doing games during the
week just for school sports, like one.
(42:18):
One or two games every fortnight of that.
Not nothing.
And that's even probably exaggerating.
Maybe like one game a month.
yeah.
Just, just to stay in touch andwhen I do it, I still enjoy it.
but it's not something thatI will probably go back to
regularly or as much as I used to.
you have had a time though,what, around, uh, 10 years or
(42:38):
so where you were like heavily.
Heavily involved.
You didn't need an exerciseprogram, you're doing so much of it.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
So refereeing three to fourtimes a week and playing as well.
It definitely kept me quite fitand very involved with the game.
and yeah, I still keep in touch withthe few people from those times.
and like, like we mentioned before,the community, because we had that
(43:01):
shared experience as referees, youcan always yeah, go back and talk
to people about what it's like.
And some, some of the referees I used torefer with, they are, they are refereeing
it like that national level and evensome international level refer referees
that I've, that I used to referee with.
so they've gone on to do what theywant to do, and I'm sure they've
(43:21):
put a lot of effort into that too.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You, oh, you have to keep the workup and keep up to date with the
rules and also keep, get your,keep your fitness level up and.
Yeah.
It's, it's a, it's a commitment.
It's, it's a big commitment, but um,yeah, it's what they enjoy, so yeah.
All for it.
thank you very much for beingon Forrest.Chat Abdul all the
(43:44):
Forrest.Chat listeners, wish you allthe best with your future endeavors.
Thank you very much for givingme this opportunity, Paul, and
thanks for everyone for listening.
Great to have you on the show.
You've been listening to Forrest.Chat,where we talk about individual endeavor
in Western Australia, what it takes,what it means, and how you do it.
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey,and in today's episode we talked
(44:08):
with Abdul-Raouf Mohamed-Isa,about being a basketball referee.
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Until then, enjoy making it happen.
Welcome to Forrest.Chat, where wetalk about individual endeavor in
Western Australia, what it takes,what it means, and how you do it.
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, andin today's episode we are talking
with Abdul-Raouf Mohamed-Isa,about basketball refereeing.
Abdul started his refereeing careeraround 2002 and over his journey
(00:31):
reached the point of refereeingfor the State Women's League.
Welcome to Forrest.Chat, Abdul.
Hi Paul.
Thanks for having me on Forrest.Chat.
It's great to have you here.
Abdul, Abdul, people have seen all sortsof things about basketball or what is.
Basketball.
(00:52):
So basketball is a team sport.
You've got five players on the courtfrom each team at once, and the goal
is to score, score more points thanthe other team by the end of the game.
at the junior level, a game can usuallygo for two 20 minute halves, and as
you get to the, I guess, Olympic andinternational level, they'll be playing.
(01:15):
10 to 12 minute quarters and the clockstops after every stoppage, whereas
juniors because of time schedulesand that the clock's usually running.
But yeah, the main goal is to scoremore points than the other team.
Okay.
I didn't realize there was, uh,such a difference between the,
I'll say the duration of play.
Yeah, it's for juniors becauseof schedules and time, slots and
(01:42):
recreation centers having limited,court space, they need to keep quite
a tight, ship in terms of time slots.
Whereas once you get to the high levels,because it's usually just the one game on
the court they can stop the clock everytime there's a stoppage, timeout, foul.
And it, at, at that professional level,you can get quite close in the game.
(02:04):
So you need to be quite, veryspecific with the timing.
a lot more can happen in the short spaceof time as you get to the high levels.
Yeah, the bigger guys can travel thecourt, much faster than the little guys.
Yeah.
And they, even at the early stage,you don't even have a shot clock.
So in basketball, mostshot clocks are 24 seconds.
(02:25):
which gets introduced when you'rein under 16, under eighteens at
possibly the state league level.
Or just a bit below that, depending ifthey have the resources to actually run
the shop clock, And then in college,I'm pretty sure it's a 32nd shop lop.
there's no kind of one sizefits all in terms of rules.
(02:46):
Also under tens, we'llplay with a size five.
We switch to under a sizesix ball in under fourteens.
And then once you go to under six,uh, under sixteens, under eighteens
and higher, it's a size seven ballfor men's, but females only go
as high as a size six basketball.
So there's another difference as well.
(03:06):
Wow.
So it's far more, intricate as far asthe sport goes and, and where you are
and what your experience might even be,I guess from a gameplay perspective.
Yeah, definitely.
Um.
Another thing I justremembered was under tens.
Usually they'll lower the ringif there's access to that.
so yeah, some recreation centers will havethe option of lowering the basketball ring
(03:27):
to about eight feet for the juniors, justto give them a better chance of scoring.
Especially you can imagine howshort some of the players are
when they're under 10 because.
It'll be kids that, it might be an under10 age group, but they'll have kids that
are under eight, under six, possibly.
Right.
So there's good ways that they canactually account for the group of
players that you're dealing with.
(03:49):
You talked about a shot clock.
What, how does that work?
So the way the shot clock works isonce a team has possession of the ball,
they have 24 seconds to attempt a shot.
The shot clock will resetif it hits the ring.
if they shoot the ball and it hits thebackboard or doesn't hit the ring at all,
then the shop clock keeps running and.
(04:10):
If it gets to zero, then that'sa violation, so the other team
gets the ball from the side.
Oh, like a foul if you pushedsomeone or, or something like that.
Yeah.
So it's just an, it's anotherviolation, which in essence
it helps to speed up the game.
'cause you can imagine, let's saya team's up by two points with a
minute left on the, time clock inthe junior levels with no shot clock.
(04:32):
They could potentially just pass the ballaround for a whole minute, which watching
that as a spectator would be quite boring.
So having the shot clock introduced.
At, higher skill levels speeds up thegame and keeps the game interesting.
Right?
So then there's also less likelihoodthat a game will go on for like four
hours or something like that because,uh, probably not really because you've,
(04:56):
you, you, you're actually in gameplayand your clock will be ticking.
yeah.
It's more keeps the game flowing.
that's the idea of the, even as abasketball referee, one of the ideas is
to keep the game flowing as much as youcan without it getting out of control.
I've seen the, uh, markings on the floorin a basketball court, and I've got
that, uh, circle off from the, ring.
(05:19):
And then they've got a couple of linesand they mean something, don't they?
Yeah, so there's a semicircle underneaththe ring, which depending on the
league, it's called the no charge zone.
So you can't actually, inbasketball, there's a offensive
foul where if a defensive playeris standing their ground facing
(05:42):
of the attacker.
if the offensive player is the onethat actually initiates the contact,
they can get called for a charge andthen it goes to the defensive team.
But in that semis right underneath thering, you can't get called for a charge.
and then you've got the keyway,which is the straight or angled
lines, depending again on the court.
and that keyway.
(06:02):
Is, there's a thrill there where it's,you can't spend more than three seconds
in the keyway as a offensive player.
and then the line at the top,that's the free throw line.
So when a player gets fouled on a shootingfoul, that's where they shoot free
throws from, which are worth one point.
And then can you get more thanone point on a. On a shot,
on a free throw.
No, the reason they call it as freethrow is because on a shooting foul,
(06:25):
that's where they'll shoot theirfree throws from, and there's no
defensive players as such in their way.
Whereas during normal gameplay,you'll score two points inside
the bigger D, which isthe three point line.
So inside that large Dthat's, um, two points.
Whereas if you shoot outsidethe D it's three points.
If your foot's on the line, it's a twopointer, you need all parts of your
(06:48):
body behind the line when you releasethe shot for it to be a three pointer.
And the three pointer is worthmore because you've thrown
it in from further away.
Yes.
Yeah.
So you need to be a bit more accurateand tend to be more effort than the two.
have you had some interestingplays that have, come in?
Yeah.
So another thing that can happen iswhile you're shooting, if you get fouled
(07:10):
on the shot and your shot goes in, sopotentially you can get a four point play.
So you'll shoot the three.
You've already released a shot, theball's gone in and someone fouls you
while you're still in the active shooting.
technically the active shootingis, until you hit the ground again.
So let's say you take ajump shot, so you've jumped.
Taken a shot, you've released the ball,someone's fouled you before you've
(07:33):
actually touched the ground again.
Then you can potentially get four points.
'cause you'll score the three pointer andget an and one on the free throw line.
but you have to put that free throw in.
Yes.
Yeah.
You still have to score the free throw.
It's not a, it's not free in termsof you just get it automatically.
You still have to score it.
Yes.
have you had some games thathave got a bit out of control?
(07:55):
Uh, yeah.
You do get, some games wherethe players and even spectators
can get a bit too involved.
as a referee, you do have to, yeah,like I said before, you wanna let the
game flow but not get it outta control.
So it's a lot of preventative things.
As such, when you're refereeing it.
You wanna be out of the way, butyeah, also keep things in line.
(08:20):
in terms of like fights andthat, I've been pretty lucky.
Nothing's got too out of control, butI've seen other games where, yeah, players
and spectators can get quite rowdy.
That's probably being generous.
AB all.
Yeah, that's probablyputting it in lighter terms.
Yeah.
They'll get very, yeah, you canget physical and not, so rather
(08:40):
than just verbal abuse, you can getsome physical abuse in games and
Yeah, parents getting involved andspectators getting involved and, yeah.
Yeah.
There should only be 10 players onthe court at once, but every now
and then you might get a few peoplerunning the court and that's when
you know things have got outta hand.
(09:00):
it must be your role at that pointto, I'll say shut it down somehow.
Yeah.
So at the, at like low levels, you mighthave like a one court manager managing
like a whole rec center, whereas as youget to the higher levels, you'll have
security, you'll have, other staff thatcan get involved and separate people.
(09:21):
Yeah, at the junior level, it's moreabout, I guess talking to or getting the
adults or the responsible adults to removethe players who are causing trouble.
And what levels have youactually refereed at?
I started locally at orrec center in Vic Park.
It was called the Park Center'cause I played there as well.
(09:44):
So that's just local on a Sunday morning.
And then other local competitionsI refereed at, Kalamunda during the
week at Rio and also mom daring.
I did a bit of private schoolsports after school sports.
so various schools after, after school,and then, so from the domestic level,
(10:08):
next will be kinda what they call the.
It's like a regional level WABL, uh,the West Australind Basketball League.
And then after that, the next levelis the state basketball league,
which that was as high as I went.
I did a women, I did women's statebasketball league for one season,
which they now call NBL One West.
(10:29):
So it sounds like there's a range ofdifferent, competitions or leagues.
that are going on that youmentioned about four there, so,
Yeah.
And then if you want to go higherin the state league of the National
League, and then after national,then international competitions like
world championships in the Olympics.
So people who are playing the sportand also refereeing, they have
(10:51):
opportunities at, uh, all of those levels.
I guess another interesting competitionthat I had a chance to referee out
was, the under 14 Girls AustralianClub Championships back in 2008.
So that's where they get clubsfrom different states, coming
together to play as their clubs.
So not as a state team, but as theirclubs in a, competition against other
(11:13):
clubs from other states, which gives them.
Not just the clubs.
A chance to, see what opponents arelike in other states at that same
level, but also the referees to engagewith other referees from other states.
And you, you pick up ideas.
You, you learn a lot from howcompetitions are run elsewhere.
(11:33):
That sounds like a great wayfor the sport to get there.
Different state bodies and statecompetitions to, to run at a more even
level across the field, which makes.
National competitionsat each of those level.
Probably more fair as well.
Yeah, I think it, it, I only had theexperience of doing one of those club
(11:55):
championships once and what you noticeis usually the higher populated states
have a, 'cause they've got a higherpool of um, people to choose from.
Usually the level is higher.
It's not always the case, but becauseyou've got more people to choose from.
There's more competition and usuallythe level of the game is higher in
those states in terms of running thecompetitions, like organizationally.
(12:19):
Yeah, there's, there's a way you canget things to run more uniformly,
um, which helps later on, obviouslyfor states when they get together.
We've heard a little bit about, whatbasketball is Is there somewhere
people can go to find out more?
Is there like a central,you mentioned WABL.
yeah.
So in WA basketball, WA would bethe organization to check out.
(12:44):
They'd have a website or if youjust want to check out like a
local domestic league, just headto your nearest recreation center.
And most recreation centers will have,teams that are either looking for players
or you could, if you've got enough peopleto actually register your own team.
And that's kind of how they get started.
And you only need five.
(13:05):
So that's, uh, quite achievable for agood number of people, I would imagine.
Yeah.
So five's a good start.
it can be quite high intensity ofthe game, so it's good to have one
or two substitutes on the bench.
Uh, when you're starting, like dependingon where you're playing, five is enough.
And from experience, when we had threeor four show up at a local game, there's
(13:27):
usually one or two people hanging aroundthat are willing to play another game or.
That would just, it's better to havelike a body on court than to start
off with less mo Most domestic leagueswill let you start with four and then
maybe the fifth one's running late.
Or you can just grab someone randomoff the side that wants to have a game.
So there's still a, good amount ofcamaraderie by the sound of things,
(13:49):
amongst people who would be therebecause they love the sport too.
and they're willing tojump in and have a go.
Yeah, exactly.
'cause you don't wanna see a team,so if you don't have enough players,
you'll have to forfeit the game.
which, yeah, no one wants to see that.
They actually wanna, they, especiallyat the local level, people want
to go there to participate.
So yeah, they'd rather see a gamehappen rather than not at all.
(14:14):
So Abdul, what does it takeyou to be a basketball referee?
so a few of the things that it takes tobe a referee, um, knowledge of the game.
Definitely.
Like there is a, there's a rule bookthat, like any rule book, it can come
down to interpretation of the rules.
(14:34):
I, I came from a playing backgroundfirst, so I, I did love the game
and I wanted to learn more about it,and that's why I became a referee.
But, uh, yeah, you gotta be quitepatient as well, especially what I find
with the junior levels, you're moreeducating than enforcing the rules.
Uh, otherwise it, if youwere to officiate a game.
(14:55):
As it is by the book.
At those lower levels, you'd be stoppingthe game every five to 10 seconds.
Whereas yeah, you want the game to flow.
you need to have like good communicationskills and even being able to
manage people, um, most games.
You're going to, you'regoing to have two referees.
sometimes one, if they're short onreferees, uh, at the high levels
(15:18):
they'll have three referees on court.
you need to have a base level offitness 'cause you will be running
up and down the court just asmuch, if not more than the players.
'cause you can imagine they'vegot five players on each team.
They don't, they will move a lot.
Whereas there's only two refereesand you have to be able to see
the game and move with the game.
(15:39):
Being able to read the game's a big thing.
so coming from a playingbackground, that helps.
But you don't need to specifically haveplayed basketball to referee the game.
It helps though, because then youcan understand where the players are
moving, what the ball's doing, andum, yeah, definitely an understanding
of the game helps even if you'venever actually played it yourself.
but I'd say, I'd say communicationwould be a big thing.
(16:01):
'cause you are, you're tryingto concentrate on the game,
but you'll have, you need tocommunicate with your core official.
You need to communicate with the benchwhen you're making foul calls and.
Other things like that.
So that's probably one of the,more important things to have
good communication skills.
Do you have a set of, signals?
Yes.
So, when you are stopping, when youblow the whistle, your hand will.
(16:27):
Hallways or most of thetime go up in the air.
Uh, if it's a foul,it'll be a closed fist.
If it's a violation, an open fist.
Um, that signifies if you, if you arerefereeing a game where there is a stop
clock for every whistle, then yeah, itsignifies to the bench to stop the clock.
when you are calling a foul to thebench, depending on the number of the
(16:49):
player, you can use one or two hands.
A closed fist means 10, and then youcan, the other hand will show one to five
depending on the number on the player.
So at, at like the junior levels, they'llsuggest no numbers between four and
15, just so that you're not confusingone, two, and three with a score.
(17:09):
So that's why the lowestnumber is usually a four.
And then the highest, number 15,because that's the most you can
have with one fist and five fingers.
that's, yeah.
So when you're signifying, um,or signaling the number of a foul
to the bench, that's the number.
And then the type of calls, afew kind of foul calls would
be like a hands, hands foul.
So like a chopping of the arms overeach other, a holding foul where you're
(17:32):
holding one wrist with the other hand.
There's, yeah, a pushing foul.
So you kind of motionand push with both hands.
and yeah, so that, that's just a few ofthe basic ones and then the violations.
You've got a travel where one hand kindof rolls over the top of the other.
score.
Anytime there's a score, youkind of signal to the bench.
They know, 'cause you're on thecourt, you'll be able to see if
(17:55):
it's a three or a two pointer.
So with a two pointer, you justsignal two points with your
fingers to the towards the bench.
Whereas with a three, if they'veattempted a three, you put one
hand up with three fingers.
If it's a successful three, the otherhand goes up with three fingers.
Whereas if it's unsuccessful, then youjust drop the hand that you put up first.
yeah.
So that's a few of the kind of calls.
(18:16):
That you would make And, yeah, so foulcalls are the, are more, um, obvious
ones 'cause you see them a lot moregetting called towards the bench.
Whereas if the violation calls, you'llput your hand up in the air, open
hand so people know it's a stoppage.
And then you'll make the signalof the violation if it's a stop
clock, a shot clock violation,or a, a travel or double dribble.
(18:40):
Um, but usually with violations.
I'd say most people don't noticethem as much because you're not
calling 'em to the bench as such.
Okay.
So you've really got a couple ofdifferent communicating systems,
so you do need to be clear about.
What all of those things mean, andI gather the, there'll be a common
set that becomes known pretty easily.
(19:01):
Yeah.
The, the, the more, I guess, um,rarer calls, which so it's uniform
in terms of calls, worldwide.
but yeah, there's ones whichare a lot more common that
you'll see more often and.
The other reason you, signal to thescore bench is 'cause they'll have a
score sheet, which they won't recordspecifically what each foul is, but they
(19:23):
need to record personal fouls for eachplayer because after, five or six fouls,
depending on the league, that playerwill be foul out of the game and they
won't be able to participate anymore.
So you can't, you can't justfoul continuously as a player,
otherwise, eventually you'llget fouled out of the game.
So that's, that's all a part about,I guess, keeping it fair and, you're
trying to keep the game moving.
(19:43):
And if you get someone who'sfouling, they're actually
stopping the game regularly.
So you can actually move them offthe field so that they don't, keep
interrupting the game, so to speak.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So in terms of personal fouls,five or six, most of the time
it's five, but some leagues havesix fouls for a personal player.
but there are other fouls,like a disqualifying foul
or intentional foul, which.
(20:04):
Or un sports like soro, whichcan, they can automatically get
ejected from the game if thefoul deems is deemed necessary.
If there's a foul, that's how cannot putthis, not within the spirit of the game.
You, they can automatically getejected just for that one foul.
another thing with fouls isif, if a game's played in half.
(20:27):
If there's 18,000 every foul afterthat, we'll be shooting fouls
rather than just from the side.
So that's another, I guess disincentivefor people to foul too much.
'cause it will put the other team onthe free throw line more often than not.
So there's a lot to therules obviously with,
what can happen during the gameand actually drive the game
(20:47):
to, cause fouls and and so on.
And there's also a system almostbuilt in to try and limit I.
Just how much of that goes on.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, so it's, and,and the game's evolved.
so much, I dunno when, but the,even, there was, there was a point, I
can't remember exactly when, but therenever used to be a three point line.
(21:10):
So it meant that It wouldcrowd the key way cause.
There was no point in shootingany further out because you didn't
score any more points and therenever used to be a shot clock.
And yeah.
So yeah, the game has evolved andmost of the time it's to help the game
flow, keep it interesting, exciting.
So how do you keep upwith all those rules?
(21:31):
like anything, there's, you've got therule book and every year they'll bring out
a kind of update with what has changed.
So you can, buy a new rule book everyyear, or if you've, you've got a
rule book which you've had for years,you just have to, um, keep updated.
Every year they'll give you like, what haschanged from the previous year's version.
(21:51):
And do they have any like processor meetings amongst referees,
that sort of thing going on?
yeah.
So in general, like from my experienceat the start of the year, you'll
have I guess points of emphasis,things that from feedback from the
last year that they want to focus on.
(22:12):
So, yeah, it's good to have, youknow, three to four key focus points
so that the referees are all on thesame page, for the following season.
The focus points may change throughoutthe season, but by having those meetings
with officials saying, let, let'sfocus on these kind of key points.
So that there's a bit of consistency.
(22:32):
so what, yeah, that's one of the,another, one of the Cs that I remember,
it was consistency, communication.
I can't remember what the last C was,but, uh, yeah, it was, it was, yeah.
And that, that's whatyou want in the game.
You want, when you're a player,you, you don't mind the calls
as long as they're consistent.
And that's where the meetingsbetween referees help.
And you also have some communitythen, I guess amongst your, your
(22:55):
referees that because you'regetting together and talking about
what's going on with the rules andobviously the points of interest and
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
And look, because you are all kind of,you got all, your goal is the same.
You want people to enjoy the game.
You want people to enjoy watching it.
And as a referee, my goal is always,you know, you do, you're not.
(23:17):
People aren't there to watch you.
They're there to watch the game.
So building that community betweenthe referees, it helps grow the game
from the grassroots all, all theway up to the professional level.
And how much, physical fitness andtraining do you need to do to, be there?
at the lower levels, the skilland you are usually, most of the
(23:38):
time taller than the, uh, players.
So you can see a lot more.
Whereas as the game grows and you get tothe high levels you need, your fitness
needs to be, pretty high because.
The players are getting tired.
You're getting tired, butyou are all having to make
decisions while you're fatigued.
So it's good to have a high fitnesslevel so that when you're making
(24:01):
these decisions, when you're tired,they're still the same ones you are
making at the start of the game andkeeping that consistency throughout.
Yeah, so having a, having a good fitnesslevel, I'm not sure in terms of like
comparison, how to compare what typeof fitness level you have, because
every game's gonna be different andwe, as the referees, we can't control.
(24:23):
The pace of the game as such.
'cause it's the players that arecontrolling the ball and they
can control how the game goes.
But it's better to be prepared for ahigh intensity up and down game than to
come thinking that it's just gonna be aslower passing the ball a lot and yeah.
So it's, it's better to be preparedfor like, those kind of high intensity
games that just, you're running upand down the court numerous times.
(24:46):
One example, I, I did.
Kind of measure how far ranin just a local, school game.
And it would've been aboutthree to four Ks in 40 minutes.
It's a lot of stop start though.
It is, yeah.
Very stop start,
I imagine with a, especially ifyou've got a shot, clock in place.
But you're gonna be traveling,you know, 20 seconds in one
(25:08):
direction and And 20 in the other.
Yes.
Yeah.
Poten.
Yeah.
So yeah, potentially you could basicallybe going up and down the court every.
15 or 20 seconds.
unless of course the offensiveteam gets the rebound and
then it stays on that half.
But yeah, there are some games.
And look, if the, um, offensive teamhas a style of game where they're
(25:30):
just putting up shots every fiveto 10 seconds, you could Yeah.
Be up and down the court.
After every shot.
That's, that's, yeah,they're, they're the game.
So yeah, you really need to haveyour fitness level up and also just
be on the ball and be ready to headup and down the court every play.
And what did you do tomaintain that level of fitness?
so I still played when I free, I stillplayed at least two or three games a
(25:54):
week and that kept my fitness level up.
And at the time I was probably, well Ihonestly, when, when I was kinda referring
a lot, I would from, I'd play Monday.
I'd play and referee on a Monday night.
I'd play and referee on a Wednesday night.
Thursday night, I'd play a game,and Saturday I'd referee for
(26:18):
about three or four hours, andthen Sunday I'd referee again.
So I guess my fitness was getting keptup by just the amount of basketball
I was involved in rather than any.
other activities
you're doing enough of it thatit was actually a training
program in and of itself.
Yes.
Yeah, very.
Yeah, very much so.
(26:38):
And as the game is you, itis, it's not constant running.
It, it, it's very stop start.
and the intensity.
Like if I were to compareit to the running, I do now.
I just, an example, I filled in for afriend about five or six years ago and
I thought, yeah, I'll be all right.
(26:58):
I'll be able to run around for 40 minutes.
Um, we did have one substitute.
And yeah, after the game, Ithought, I forgot how intense
a game of basketball can be.
Yeah.
We've had a good chat about, what ittakes you to be a basketball referee.
Abdul, let's have a little breaknow, and after the break we'll
have a look at what it means.
(27:26):
We've had a look at what it takes.
Now let's have a lookat what it means, Abdul.
What does it mean that you areable to be a basketball referee?
So for me, what the reason I becamea basketball referee is I did want
to learn more about the game afterplaying it for so long, and I was
(27:51):
relatively quiet as a kid and.
It, it got me out of my comfort zone.
So in terms of personaldevelopment, that's why I also
chose to become a referee.
It brought me outta my shelland it taught me a lot of, um,
I guess, valuable life skills.
it's definitely, I. Made me more assertiveas a person and being able to communicate,
(28:18):
concisely as well with uh, 'cause Yeah,when you're a free, yeah, the game flows
so quickly, you don't have a chancereally to have those long conversation.
You have to be quite concisewith your communication.
I do love the community and that's onereason, even though I stopped refereeing
for at least, uh, close to 10 years,um, I've kept in touch with a few people
(28:41):
from the community and they're always,it's one of those things where they're
always on the call out for more referees.
It's, it's definitely not for everyone.
It, yeah, it takes a lot of patience.
You need, you do need to have.
Thick skin at times and having, havinga good focus as well, um, on the game.
(29:04):
for what it means to my, I guess,family, what it's helped with, being
able to relate to people at alldifferent levels of the game, and
not just basketball, but rememberingwhat it's like at that grassroots
level to learn something new and.
(29:25):
and like I said before about the youngerage groups, it is more about education.
Um, I'll give you one example whereI was referring under tens game and
I've made a violation call, likea double dribble or a travel, and
the first question I ask, I don't.
Like to assume no one knows.
(29:46):
So I'll be like, I'll ask, not justthe person I've called the violation
on, but just all the 10 players.
I was like, um, I'll say, doyou know why I called that?
And some will and others won't.
So I'll, I'll go.
Okay.
So I'll explain it to the people thatI. Want to listen and then as, yeah, as
they get older, it's, it is more about,um, yeah, keeping, enforcing the rules.
(30:11):
there's always gonna be education,but yeah, it's definitely, uh,
it changes throughout the game.
So, yeah, it's helped me relate tolike, like my nieces and nephews and
that as they're learning differentsports or learning in general.
And, uh, yeah, so the comm, it'sbeen good to kind of keep in touch
with the community here and there,or if I see them out and about.
(30:35):
referees aren't always the most favoritepeople to, we, we, we, we are human.
We, we are going to make mistakes.
and, but it's about, Iguess being accountable and.
When you make a mistake,knowing how to improve from it.
And so other things as a referee,uh, as you get to the, even at the
(30:55):
local level, but as you get to thehigh levels, we have referee coaches
who will watch us referee and they'llgive us feedback after the games just.
On things that, so they've noticed,like, habits or small things that
we might be consistently missing,certain types of fouls or violations.
(31:16):
One thing from memory, I can remember,which has helped me in life as well.
What I used to do, I didn't think aboutit, but when they explained it to me, I
would subconsciously, depending on whomy co-official was, I would, if they were
less experienced, I'd actually drop mystandard to kind of match theirs rather
than staying where I was and makingthem, I guess, come up to my level.
(31:41):
Which helped me as well in life ratherthan, so kind of keeping myself where
I need to be rather than lowering.
So when I refereed with people thatwere higher than me, I would actually
step up my game to match theirs.
And that's helped me in life andwork in that where I, I try to
stay true to myself rather thanswitching to someone else's standards.
(32:05):
Um, so that's something, yeah, Iremember reading some feedback and,
yeah, so it's, yeah, getting that,I guess honest feedback from people
who are a neutral voice ratherthan from the teams or the players.
One experience I do rememberquite, memorable is I was
referring a, it was a finals game.
(32:27):
It was a very close game.
and one of the parents from thelosing team actually came up to
me and the other official, andthey actually congratulated us.
and they said that was one of the bestgames they've watched, I remember.
We were very consistent and yeah, you,you do get a lot from usually the losing
team coming up to you and actuallythanking you for a well officialed game.
(32:50):
yeah.
So it's those small things that, yeah,the appreciation you get because it's,
it's like anything, people usuallyremember your mistakes, but they
don't remember what you've done well.
They'll point out those kind ofmistakes you made rather than
remembering that overall youactually did a pretty good job.
So yeah.
Yeah, it's definitely, it's helped,it's helped me grow as a person and
helped me, not just in referringbasketball, but life in general
(33:15):
is, isn't it amazing how you learnthings in one environment that transfers
across to other parts of your life?
It's a little bit like self-reflection.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It um, well, obviously at the time whenyou are in the moment, you don't have
much time to reflect and think about it,but when you, um, have time outside of
(33:35):
that, that area, you're like it, yeah.
You can transfer those skills thatyou've learned or just small things
that stand out for you that, um, youcan use in other parts of your life.
That's, it's amazing to havethat, uh, as an opportunity.
Basketball Has a lot of impactfor people in their lives.
(33:56):
what do you see Peoplecoming to basketball that
they get out of basketball?
when you start, it's probably moreof a, that social aspects seeing,
um, especially at the local level.
You, you get to see the samepeople every day, like for example.
I played with, my older brotherand some old high school friends.
(34:16):
So ev even after, after school, we'dstill be seeing each other once a week.
It was like a little catch up and thenwe'd have like a little annual thing.
So yeah, it was a good way tokeep that social connection.
and then I coached my little brotherfor a couple of seasons, and that was
a good way to kind of connect with him.
And also, we even played, um,mixed basketball with our family.
(34:37):
So the three brothers, my sister,and my mom and cousin, we used to
kind of, I think my sister-in-lawmight have joined as well.
So yeah, it's just, it's a wayto keep socially connected.
and it's, it's, it's a weekly thing.
Most, most times you'll beseeing each other once a week.
You kind of look forward to.
that catch up or just seeing that personfor that, thing once a week and it, it
(34:58):
builds a lot of, uh, it's a lot liketeam bonding and teamwork and that Yeah.
It's, it's, it's that, I thinkit is that connection with that
community, that you build andmeeting other people and even if.
So one another example is, uh, peoplethat I played against as opponents,
you know, five, 10 years down thetrack, I happened to bump into them.
(35:19):
Never knew their name, but you know,you'd recognize each other by face
and yeah, you'd still, you know, thememories come flooding back when you,
you are like, oh, do you remember whenwe used to play down at this rec center?
And yeah, just, yeah, you, you,you never kind of, I guess forget.
The feelings and the memories that you'vebuilt while you are playing the game and
being involved in that area of your life.
(35:41):
That's an important part of,having a life history, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
you are not gonna remembereverything, but yeah.
So it's kind of small momentsthat come back to you.
When you see a familiar face or goto a familiar area that you've been
to earlier on, um, yeah, the memoriesdefinitely come flooding back.
Is there any other aspect of,basketball that, impacts on your life?
(36:05):
so another, I guess anotherviewpoint that I had.
I loved watching basketballand I, I still do love watching
it, and that's another thing.
Um, when my brother and a few friendswe were, I. Season members that
watching the Perth Wildcats, so that'sanother thing that, you know, every
week or every fortnight, it was agood way to kind of catch up with
(36:26):
each other and watch, enjoy the game.
Just watching.
Uh oh.
It is, I must say it is.
Since becoming a referee, it washarder to just watch and enjoy a game
'cause you're constantly analyzing.
so I did, I had to kind of flick theswitch when I watched the Game of
Basketball and not to, I guess analyzeit or watch for those kind of, I
had to kind of, I feel like watchinga magic show, if you've got that.
(36:51):
Analytical mindset.
You're trying to figure out howthis works or, yeah, so when I was a
referee trying to watch the Game ofthe Spectator, I had to switch my brain
from a referee to a spectator and justenjoy the game rather than overanalyze
every single call or play I had.
Yeah.
It, it, it, it wasn't easy.
It, I still, I still do it now andagain, like, but yeah, definitely.
(37:12):
Try to enjoy the game just asa spectator, not as a referee.
I guess then as a, that helps you asa referee be to have that difference
in your thinking because you alsowanting the spectators to have that
focus on the game and not on on you.
So understanding that what you do as areferee can have a big impact on that.
(37:35):
Yeah, it's, it's a bit harderwhen you are actually refereeing.
'cause you have to be in that mindsetand you don't, it's harder to,
gauge the picture that people areseeing from a different perspective.
You understand it, but when you areactually refereeing it is, yeah.
You have to focus on the job.
And it is a bit harder tothink about that as such.
And that's where havingthat referee coach or.
(37:58):
Someone on the sideline who is in thatspectator position can see the whole
court and give you feedback on that.
And so while you are actually refereeing,you can focus on what you're doing.
Um, it it's in the back.
It is in the back of your mind.
But yeah, it's definitely not somethingyou think about while you're doing it.
It's more getting thatfeedback afterwards.
(38:20):
we've covered quite a lot about.
What it means that Abdulcan be a basketball referee.
We'll have a break now and after thebreak we'll talk about how you do it.
We've had a look at what itmeans to referee basketball.
(38:40):
Now let's have a look at how you do it.
Abdul, how would someone start,at least on their journey of
becoming a basketball referee?
So the best way to start is to goto your local recreation center or
local domestic competition and hide.
I'd ask either the manager of thecenter or even just one of the referees.
(39:02):
Who do I speak to to become a referee?
Most of the times they'll have whatthey call a Level zero referee course,
which is, just the basics of, the rulesand what it takes to become a referee.
and that, yeah, that, that would beyour starting point, just speaking
to, like a referee that you see orsomeone that organizes the referees.
(39:24):
Yeah.
So in terms of, I don't, there, therewould be like a website, but it's probably
best to speak to someone in person.
'cause they'll have like the localknowledge of when the next another
course is coming up or what's involved.
In becoming a referee
doesn't sound like it's, too bigof a hurdle for people to do,
like from a fitness perspectiveand, and those sorts of things.
(39:47):
Obviously, if you already have knowledgeabout the game, you'll be, you'll have a
bit of a leg up and, clearly there'll bethings to learn, like, how you signal.
But if you've been following games,you would've seen that already.
You'd at least know some of it.
and it sounds like there's a, an entrylevel course that you can do, which
would be, very helpful, I'm sure.
(40:07):
Yeah, and I think.
Look, they're always onthe call out for referees.
So if you show your interests,they'll before, if there isn't a
course coming up, they'll teach youa lot of the practical start of it.
They'll even probably help you.
So when you're first starting out as ajunior referee, you are, nowadays, I think
they wear like a yellow or green shirt sopeople know that you're learning they'll
(40:28):
teach you kind of the OnCore basics.
And then when a course comes up,you can go and do that so that
you are officially accredited.
and then yeah, there's different levelsif you wanna step up to the different,
levels of referring at higher leaguesand that, and yeah, in terms of fitness,
it's one of those things that's as longas you have a base level of fitness,
which is good, but as you referringmore, your fitness will improve as well
(40:50):
because of the games that you referee.
you'll start to get a feel forit and, get some practice at it
because you'll be there doing it.
Yeah, and like in from my ownexperience, even if you haven't, I
haven't referred for about 10 yearsand still being in touch with the
community or people that organized,referees for, rec centers or schools.
(41:11):
they're always on the lookoutand it's something that, a
bit like riding a bike, you.
Once you're back on the court, you doremember the rules may have changed,
but in terms of, referee game, yeah,a lot of the basics stay the same so
you can kind of jump back on and off.
if you lose touch, you can alwaysget back into it quite easily.
So based on that response, I'llask you, Abdul, what's next?
(41:33):
Yeah.
So for me, in terms of basketballrefereeing, I, I still stay in touch
in terms of just private school gamesafter work and that, I tried going
back into regular domestic refereeinglike during the week, but for me, it.
It was too much of a commitment,which I couldn't do at the time.
Um, and I, I've definitely drawn theline at not doing any more weekend games.
(41:57):
'cause I do remember how yourweekend pretty much just flew by.
I enjoyed it.
But your weekend pretty much was gonewhen you started referring on weekends.
'cause yeah, you'd get asked, left,right, and center, can you do this game?
Can you do that game?
So I, that's where I've drawn the line.
I. Nowadays I stick to, kind ofsemi-regularly doing games during the
week just for school sports, like one.
(42:18):
One or two games every fortnight of that.
Not nothing.
And that's even probably exaggerating.
Maybe like one game a month.
yeah.
Just, just to stay in touch andwhen I do it, I still enjoy it.
but it's not something thatI will probably go back to
regularly or as much as I used to.
you have had a time though,what, around, uh, 10 years or
(42:38):
so where you were like heavily.
Heavily involved.
You didn't need an exerciseprogram, you're doing so much of it.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
So refereeing three to fourtimes a week and playing as well.
It definitely kept me quite fitand very involved with the game.
and yeah, I still keep in touch withthe few people from those times.
and like, like we mentioned before,the community, because we had that
(43:01):
shared experience as referees, youcan always yeah, go back and talk
to people about what it's like.
And some, some of the referees I used torefer with, they are, they are refereeing
it like that national level and evensome international level refer referees
that I've, that I used to referee with.
so they've gone on to do what theywant to do, and I'm sure they've
(43:21):
put a lot of effort into that too.
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You, oh, you have to keep the workup and keep up to date with the
rules and also keep, get your,keep your fitness level up and.
Yeah.
It's, it's a, it's a commitment.
It's, it's a big commitment, but um,yeah, it's what they enjoy, so yeah.
All for it.
thank you very much for beingon Forrest.Chat Abdul all the
(43:44):
Forrest.Chat listeners, wish you allthe best with your future endeavors.
Thank you very much for givingme this opportunity, Paul, and
thanks for everyone for listening.
Great to have you on the show.
You've been listening to Forrest.Chat,where we talk about individual endeavor
in Western Australia, what it takes,what it means, and how you do it.
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey,and in today's episode we talked
(44:08):
with Abdul-Raouf Mohamed-Isa,about being a basketball referee.
Remember, there are four waysto get involved in Forrest.Chat.
Share the domain, Forrest.Chat with yourfriends and family and people you meet.
You get advanced notice of episodeswhen you subscribe to the email list.
Listen to the episodes atForrest.Chat slash episodes.
(44:32):
If you or someone you know doessomething that other people may be
interested in, book an interviewat Forrest.Chat slash interview.
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Forrest.Chat slash advert.
I'm looking forward to joiningyou with our next guest.
Until then, enjoy making it happen.
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