February 25, 2025 • 49 mins
Sandi talks about writiing with and about cystic fibrosis (cf), what it takes, what it means and how you do it.
My favourite quote of the episode is "Maybe other children who know kids with CF may get a little bit of an insight into our headspace, of what it's like to live with something where you're constantly worried about being judged and not fitting in and not being normal. Because, we all do that, we all have something where we don't feel that we're normal. Whether we're not good at sports, whether we're not good at math, there is always something. But maybe, it will be that realisation for them that having CF isn't actually getting special treatment when they got time off to do certain things that they might need to go and do. Maybe."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to Forrest.Chat,where we talk about individual
endeavour in Western Australia.
What it takes, what itmeans, and how you do it.
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, andin today's episode, we're talking with
Sandi Parsons about writing a novel.
Sandi lives and breathes stories, asa reader, writer, and storyteller.
(00:28):
She lives in Western Australiawith her favourite husband.
some problem puppies, and manyteetering stacks of books.
Welcome to Forrest.Chat, Sandi.
Thank you, Paul.
It's such a pleasure tobe here on Forrest.Chat.
I'm so happy that we could comeand talk books and writing.
Looking forward to hearing about it.
The stories we've had going in thebackground in our email conversations
(00:52):
have been very interesting
I hope they'll be interestingto your listeners as well.
I'm sure they will be.
So
Sandi, we're talking about writing books.
What is it that you're doingin the field of writing books?
I suppose, like everybody, wehave multiple hats as humans.
at the core of what I do,it centres around books.
(01:15):
I'm a school librarian, I'm a reader,and I also write children's books.
So it was just a natural progressionfrom the reader to the librarian.
to the writer.
But I do remember back in year11 being told, you can't make
a living out of reading books.
And I wish I'd been able tosay, well, hey, look at me now.
(01:36):
Here I am playing with books all day.
And that's what I do for a living.
Yes, libraries are full of books.
That's what they're all about.
They are, he did send meoff to do an account course.
And that was not the sort ofbooks that I was interested in.
cause I live with Cystic Fibrosisand he told me that I could not
work in a library because the bookswould be too heavy and too dusty.
(01:58):
But that was a lot of attitude backthen in the 80s about what people with
Cystic Fibrosis could and couldn't do.
So I got a lot of, you couldn't,you shouldn't and you mustn't.
I like to defy statistics wentout and I followed my dream
which was to work with books.
And did any of those issues with cysticfibrosis come into play in the end
(02:18):
No, not when I first started out.
I had been working in libraries for 10years when my lungs went into respiratory
failure and I had some time off to stopand have a lung transplant, but after that
I went straight back into the library.
all through COVID, I worked throughCOVID, I wear a mask around the
kids, there has been nothing aboutworking in a library that a person
(02:41):
with cystic fibrosis would not do.
That's great to hear.
It gives plenty of hope to someonewho's in that scenario, I'm sure.
Well, that's one of the reasons why Iwrote my latest book, because of the
Features growing up as a person who read.
I read during my treatmentsand the books were my friends.
So they could take me on adventures whileI was doing all of those treatments,
(03:03):
but there wasn't anyone like me.
And when I finally did find fictionwith characters with CF, they used
that standard plot point of poorDying person was their plot point, it
was again around that you shouldn't,you couldn't, and you mustn't.
the person with cystic fibrosiswas there to generate sympathy.
(03:26):
And that wasn't my lifewith Cystic Fibrosis.
So I wrote Salty for the childrentoday to know there is more.
This is a realistic representationof living with CF where you're
managing your treatments and you'regoing to school and you're not
spending your entire life in hospital
so what does a life of a person withcystic fibrosis look like these days?
(03:50):
So today there's A lot more moderntreatments, there are different
medications, we also have atreatment called modulators now.
They've got some pretty fancynames, so there's Okambe, there's
Trikafta, there's Kalydeco.
And they are not a cure, but they arethe first treatment that looks at fixing
(04:14):
the actual problem, rather than beinglike antibiotics, anti inflammatories
and slapping a bandaid on the problem.
So they work at a level to compensate sothat your body works normally instead of
how a body with cystic fibrosis works.
So there is a lot ofhope for the kids today.
So they're still doing treatments.
They're still taking tablets.
(04:36):
They're not facing very, very short lifeexpectancies like we were in the 70s.
And you've beaten those expectationsby, orders of magnitude.
Yes, so my original diagnosis back in the70s was there was a 50 percent chance that
I would make it to 13, and the averagelife expectancy for a child with cystic
(04:58):
fibrosis at that time was 7, so this wasa very generous 50 percent chance you'll
make it to 13 assessment, and I am 52.
I am 13 years post transplant,and I have a 29 year old child,
which was not something thatwas even considered in the 70s.
We would even be adults, letalone be having our own children.
(05:20):
So when you come back to, books and thestory that you've written, which is called
Salty, then you've built in, effectively,your life's outlook into that.
Would that be a fair thing to say?
Yeah, so when I've read books aboutcharacters with cystic fibrosis,
again, as I said, they focused on thesickness, whereas that wasn't my life.
My life in high school and primaryschool was being worried when I
(05:43):
coughed, because when you cough,and COVID, people will look at you.
They will look at you because you'recoughing, you must be dirty, you
must be diseased, you're contagious.
There is that stigma that isattached when you cough, and you've
got a big chunky chesty cough.
And that has been around longer thanCOVID, and obviously it's worse now.
I one time during, I think it wasthe SARS outbreak, and I coughed
(06:07):
and I cleaned supermarket aisles,because people were just scared.
So as a child, when people are lookingat you like that, it's very confronting.
I hedge.
One of my primary school teachers actuallysaid, put your head in a bucket of
water three times and pull it out twice,because he was annoyed at my coughing.
So the other, other problems I facedas a child with cystic fibrosis was the
(06:32):
endless worry of getting my enzymes right.
So a lot of people associate CFjust with the lungs, but it's
actually an entire body disease.
The two systems that affects the most arethe respiratory and the digestive system.
That means I can't digest my own food.
So I take enzymes.
If you get that wrong, you'vegot two, two ways that can go.
(06:54):
If you have too, too little, youcan end up with diarrhea, have
too many, you're constipated.
So there was always that endlessworry of where is the bathroom?
I need, I need it, I need toknow where the bathroom is.
And particularly as a girl, that was justsomething, it was highly embarrassing.
You've got this cough,you've got tummy troubles.
And so that's the only troublesthat my character, Dara, faces.
(07:17):
trying to take her tabletsdiscreetly so that people don't know.
Those normal worries of someone who'sliving with cystic fibrosis and going to
school in that peer pressure where haveto be normal and you have to fit in.
And when you live with
fibrosis, you don't fit in.
society isn't probably preparedfor what you're facing, would
(07:38):
that be fairly accurate?
I think so.
When, when people, when I talk aboutthe things that I've gone through in
my life, I'm very much, yes, okay,that happened and it's very sad.
But, here's the moral of thestory, but they're focused more on
the, or the trauma that happens.
And it's like, but, but, but, I didall these other good things too.
(07:59):
But what are some of thosegood things that you did while
you were going through school?
Uh, so going through school I think it wasthe library was my safe place and I would
often, I suppose, possibly be shelteredby the teachers and the librarians.
So I had a safe place to go, isalways nice when you're a bit
(08:20):
different to the other children.
But I still did all the normal things.
I used to be a very goodlong distance runner.
I'm not anymore, but back then Icould do long distance running.
And for a short person, I'm only 5'1 Iwas actually pretty good at high jump.
a little while.
I edited the school magazine and Igot to have a pretty normal life.
(08:45):
were, there were times I wentto hospital and that was like
a totally different life.
Um, and again, because we weresick children and we were dying,
staff would let us get awaywith anything we wanted to.
we would have IV races upand down the corridors.
We'd, yeah, be out after dark where weshouldn't be, roaming around the hospital.
And it was all overlooked because Isuppose they thought we may as well
(09:08):
let them have the fun while they can.
So that's a pretty, uh, in someways a very privileged place to be.
Yeah, I mean obviously there wasintermixed in that was, we were doing
that stuff and at the same time we, theremight be three of us down there running
around with our IV poles having a lot offun, but also with the knowledge that one
of our friends that had been our friendsall our life was upstairs in the ward
(09:31):
and they weren't coming home that time.
that this was going tobe their last admission.
So it was, it was tempered.
go to CF camps and one of the firstthings I would always do is look
around to see and make sure that myfriends had made it through the year.
Because back in the early80s, we didn't a lot outside.
There wasn't the internet.
(09:51):
So we were relying on sendingletters and things like that.
Um, so that was one of my, so that'snot a normal thing for a child to
do when they first go to camp isto look around and make sure all
their friends are still alive.
That was my normal, so Idon't know any different.
So you, you don't know the differencethen between how that impacted you
(10:12):
versus how that impacted, maybe weshould be talking about this in a
later question, but there's a big thingthere about, you know, you went through
things that other people haven't gonethrough, but because you went through
it, you don't know what the alternativewas like, if you know what I mean.
And that's what the kids with CFare facing today, because in my day,
we, we grew up together, we had thecamps, we were in hospital together,
(10:35):
and there was a lot of fun, and I wasnever scared about anything that ever
happened to me, because I'd alwaysseen my friends go through it first.
I knew what the next stage of CF was.
And today, because of the infection,cross infection guideline rules, they're
not allowed to mix with each other.
So, children with CF today growup isolated from one another.
(10:58):
And they don't have that companionship,they don't have the people to talk to
who are going through the same things.
that was another motivating factorfor me to write Salty, so that there
was something they could relate to.
Because again, as a child, you don'twant to talk about your bathroom issues.
(11:19):
You don't want to talk about how itmakes you feel when everyone in the
class stares at you while you'recoughing until you've gone red.
So was my way of bridging that gap.
I can't give them friendships thatI had in childhood, but I can give
them a fictional character thatthey might be able to relate to.
that sounds, devastating for the currentgeneration going through that, because
(11:42):
being isolated is the worst thing ever.
Yes, and the parents today are veryprotective, and as a mother I can
understand why they are mama bears.
But to my generation, the risksalways outweighed the benefits.
Because the benefits of havinga friendship, knowing what was
(12:04):
happening, having someone to talk to,they're just, you can't measure that.
And never want to give that up.
So I still have friends today withCystic Fibrosis that I out with.
We do it in safe ways.
you still find a wayto, you To be together.
That's uh, that's an extremely good thing.
(12:25):
Sandi, what does it take you to bea writer of a story that has such
a close connection to your life?
I suppose, in this sense, Iwasn't just channeling, um,
My inner child for the magic.
For me instead of just having tochannel my inner child for the magic
and the wonder was also channelingmy inner child that feeling not being
(12:51):
quite fitting in and And it felt.
So there is a lot of me in Dara.
Her fears were my fears.
Except for I didn't haveher extensive vocabulary.
So I gave her something I didn't have.
That's the the beautyof hindsight, isn't it?
And a bit of experience in life as well.
(13:12):
Also, Dara, it was, it was partly a wayto introduce the medical terms, so for the
people who didn't have CF, I could explaina little bit about what these fancy
words that I was using, like percussion,which is a medical treatment that we use.
So, Dara has a love of old and lost words.
Of all, all of them, myfavourite would be scurryfunge.
(13:33):
Now, she says that to the girls,they think it's the plague and
that doesn't help her cause at all.
scurryfunge is a brilliant word.
In the olden days, a scurryfungewas when you saw your neighbour
at the top of the driveway.
And in between then and when sheknocked on your door, you ran around
cleaning your house frantically.
And of course the modern equivalent iswhen mum says, Have you cleaned your room?
(13:55):
And you shove everything under your bed.
So there's a, definite connection therebetween, you and, and your writings.
what are your strengthsthat allow you to write?
I'm not a natural writer, so Idon't know if I have strengths.
So some people have the strength thatthey have stories that just come to
them and they're compelled to be told.
(14:19):
I'm the sort of writer who wants to bea writer, And so I have to force myself
to sit in the seat to write the storiesbecause they're not chattering in my head.
And I've had to learnhow to do all of this.
And I suppose when I first startedout, I didn't know there were
courses you could do to, to write.
I just thought you, it wasjust something you could do.
(14:39):
You could either do it or you didn't.
And for some people who do havethose voices in the story sitting
in their head, Maybe it islike that, but it's not for me.
To write even though I didn't have thosestories in my head, chattering away to me.
(15:05):
And so I used that determinationto always force my bottom into the
seat, my hands on the keyboard.
your background then has givenyou a pretty strong motivation
to get in and do things.
Does that show up in other parts of whatyou've needed to do to write the book?
The things around theactual writing itself?
I don't know that so much as there aretimes obviously when my body lets me
(15:30):
down too, where as much as I want towrite and I know I've got deadlines or
that, but my boss is physically justnot capable of it or because of the
medications I'm on, my brain's a bit mush.
So there is definitely a determinationof when I've got the time and
when everything is all lined upto make the most of that time
(15:53):
Uh, and um, uh, and uh, uh, um,They just, they're just, they're
just, they're just trying to do it.
because there are days where I might bedrained from work or my medications has
(16:15):
changed I just, I don't feel like writingand I'm not a writer who writes every
day and that's more because my body letsme down than because I don't want to.
do you have a regular scheduleor flow that you normally try to
get into, or it just is today'sthe day and let's have a go?
(16:36):
Okay.
Thank you.
no, because post transplant life is,you, you don't know what sort of day
you're ever going to wake up with.
Is you can start off with a good day andit just turns around and you're having
medication side effects and it's, it'sa let's just get through the day day.
And other days you can wake up thinking,oh, it's a just get through the day day
and it turns out to be a really good day.
(16:58):
And that's it.
The medication we take fortransplants is effectively a poison.
So it's compressing my immune systemso that I don't reject these lovely
lungs that I have been gifted.
And sometimes your body just doesn'tcope with everything that's going on.
We're putting into itthat's not so pleasant.
(17:20):
So I just each day as it is
so you're really working onyour ability to be flexible.
Yes.
Yeah.
Flexibility has alwaysbeen my key strength.
That's the same when I'mworking in the library too.
If I'm having one of those moments wheremy heart decides it's a idea to run at
(17:41):
130 beats a minute, I can sit quietlyat the desk and I can catalogue books.
And then I leave the putting the booksaway, which is bending up and down
to times where my heart is beating.
Behaving normally.
So it's about being flexible.
And both jobs, being a writerand being a librarian, give me
that flexibility to do that.
so that flexibility you live with,and it's something that a lot of
(18:05):
people actually struggle with.
They like to have that set thing todo, that rhythm of life, so to speak.
Yes.
But then It's also, I can't bespontaneous, so I can't go on a
spontaneous holiday, like book aholiday and then sit there in the
lovely beach tropical writing becausethat's something I have to plan.
(18:26):
I've got the flexibility day today, but I also need to schedule
things in advance around my health.
So I've bit of a mix of both.
so that longer term scheduling, isthat around, commitments you have
to, attend to and things like that?
No, it's making sure we have, um,the correct information from our
doctors so that we've got all, allof our medications are up to date.
(18:47):
We've got enough scripts.
We've got a letter from the doctor sayingwhy we're carrying this small pharmacy.
Uh, we've got contacts so weknow where we're going to go.
Working out travel insurance is notcheap or easy, that comes with a medical
assessment usually, so it's not like youcan just ring up and book, it's, you've
got to schedule everything in so youmake sure you're good to go on the day.
(19:09):
Right, so there's a huge planningeffort goes in beforehand and that's
what makes it trickier to, to doon the, on the spur of the moment.
Yep,
you talked about, you don't have thatstory bubbling away in your head.
To me sounds like a, likea writer's block almost.
So you must have some, uh,tactics or something like that
that you use to get through.
(19:31):
I work in what I call a dirty draft,which is before The first draft.
And it's literally, this happens,that happens, she's going to
say this, this, this, this.
And it's, it's dirty and it'smessy and, and it's horrid.
But then once I have that andI have something on the page,
(19:52):
ideas on how they will get fromthese points will start to come.
And sometimes when I'm writing thedialogue, it'll, it'll have its own voice.
The dialogue will have its own voice.
yeah, so the character'sdialogue will have its own voice.
Is that I'll just know what theywill say, or how they would react.
But that's usually not untilI'm well into the first or the
(20:13):
second draft that I find that.
And again, that stubbornness of bottomon the seat, typing away, I don't
have those voices talking to me.
I'd love to have the voices talking to me.
Sounds you say it like that, but
it sounds like so much easier to do that.
Yes, yes.
(20:34):
I'm always very jealous when they saythey have the character talking to them
in their head, because I just don't.
as I said, when I get to thesecond draft, then I really know my
character by that point, and I knowwhat their hopes and their fears
are, that makes it a lot easier.
And that's the part I enjoy alot more than that first bit.
once you get a flow on, it starts toease up and become much better for you.
(20:58):
Yes.
And I've started doing some techniques,which I started, I went to a PD. And they
said to go and do some improv classes.
So that's about your imagination andjust coming up with something and
going with it no matter what happens.
And I thought that was interesting soI did that and I started applying it at
(21:20):
school and so the kids would say thingsto me like I had a dog bite on my arm, big
bandage, and I would just say the silliestthing that would come into my head like
there was a group of aliens that wereinvading and I did the big Wonder Woman
thing and they went pow pow pow hole in myarm and that's how I got a bandage thing.
And as the kids go on they now knowif they ask me something, I will say
(21:43):
something wild and outlandish, and it hasgotten better since I've been doing it.
Those miniature little improvsof just saying the silliest thing
I can think of when they ask methe question, running with it.
And of course questions back sometimestoo, and you've got to keep going,
which, which makes it a bit harder.
With a straight face.
With a straight face, that'simpossible, how could you do that?
(22:05):
But some of those have now, then become,because I also have an activity book
that I've written full of writingprompts for children, and some of
those things, the crazy things I'vesaid have become my writing prompts.
have a double purpose, and it's, I supposeit's like tapping into your creativity.
during the day so you cando other things later.
So that you, even if I'm notwriting, I'm still being creative.
(22:26):
I read a book by Alan Elder from MASH, hedid, he played the main character on MASH.
And he, I believe, also got verymuch into the improvisation.
side of things as well.
he found that extremely, beneficial.
I'm pretty sure it was Alan Alda.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
But that's, uh, in my mind,that's the connection.
(22:50):
I said, it has been helpfulto do those little things.
There's sometimes like,oh, that's not a bad idea.
And then I go write that downfor my writing prompts later.
a couple of them I've even tried doinglittle short stories on myself later too.
To then expand it and, and get a bitmore, uh, out of doing that process.
(23:10):
But I said, the practices inbeing that creative and making
something silly out of nothing.
And of laugh too.
I'm sure it would.
I'm sure it would.
We've had a look at what it takesto write a book that's so closely
aligned with your own life.
We'll have a break now.
And after the break, We'llhave a look at what it means
(23:39):
We've had a look at what it takes.
Now, let's have a look at what it means.
Sandi, what does it mean to you,your family, or the community that
you're able to write these novels?
For me, there was always a burning desire.
From the first time I realised thatname on the cover was actually a real
(24:01):
person writing the book, and this wassomething I could do, it became a goal.
And my goal was always to write, likeI said, I don't have the stories.
The goal was always to write a book,not because I had a story to tell.
And I think partly that was becausebooks had meant so much to me and I
wanted to give back so that childrentoday had stories that they enjoyed.
(24:24):
So that was my original motivation.
And my first, novel, which is a chapterbook called Pepsi the Puppy, was based
on the shenanigans of my actual dog,Pepsi, who was a blue heeler, who was
very, very naughty, and she provideda lot of fodder for the stories.
And then I employed the techniquesof exaggeration, and children
(25:14):
but I can't market
(25:45):
and all the
(26:56):
That's an amazing gift to those kids.
I hope so.
I hope that even if it just meanssomething to one child, then it's worth
it for that one child to have a connectionand know that they are not alone, that
there are other people with CF who havethe same fears and worries that they do.
Then it's worth
(27:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And what about the families of those kids?
Do you think they'llgain something from it?
I'm hoping that, maybe notso much the families, but
Maybe other children who know kids withCF may get a little bit of an insight
into our headspace, of what it's liketo live with something where you're
(27:40):
constantly worried about being judgedand not fitting in and not being normal.
Because, we all do that, weall have something where we
don't feel that we're normal.
Whether we're not good at sports,whether we're not good at math,
there is always something.
But maybe, it will be that realisationfor them that having CF isn't actually
(28:03):
getting special treatment when theygot time off to do certain things
that they might need to go and do.
Maybe.
The way I look at things, andeven this podcast, helps Thanks.
People see other people's perspectiveson a whole raft of different things.
My guests have included people doingall sorts of different activities,
(28:27):
different endeavors, and sometimesyou don't pick out the same things as
other people do from those episodes.
No, um, my son will deny this everhappened, when he was in year eight, he
asked if he could read Twilight and Isaid, no, I think you're a bit young.
He borrowed it from the school library,he came home, at the time, Because he
(28:51):
will, he will now tell you he's neverread that book, but at the time he would
swear, what do you mean it's a love story?
This is a story about werewolvesversus vampires, because he
just didn't read the love bits.
He wasn't interested in them,he skipped over them, and he's
concentrated on that thread of thevampires versus the werewolves.
we all do that when we, we bringour perspective when we're reading
(29:12):
something, when we're doing something,when we're watching something,
sometimes maybe this helps us walk.
In someone else's shoes.
Absolutely, and we can alllearn from somebody else.
Yes,
And what does you writingbooks mean for your family?
I think.
my, for my husband, it's Gosh,that's a really interesting question.
(29:37):
I don't know if I have an answer to it.
I suppose in some ways theywould see it as an achievement
and something to be proud of.
I know, I know my sister willoften say, my sister's done this
great thing and share a post.
So I guess it's for the family,it's something I've done
(29:58):
that they can be proud of.
It certainly is.
Absolutely.
Yeah, because as I said,
No one forces you to write a book.
It's either you've got a storyin your head that you've got to
get out, or you make yourself sitthere and it all comes from you.
Because books don't get written unlessthat person is determined to get them out.
(30:19):
It's a lot of will power in there.
There's a lot of effortin there, isn't there?
So how much time do you actuallyspend getting the book written?
All
Pepsi, I wrote very quickly, as in myfirst draft, because I it in to the year
three students, and I said to them, oh,can I read this first chapter to you?
(30:41):
They said yes, and at the endof it, they said, can we have
the next chapter next week?
And I went, oh, okay, sure.
I didn't have a next chapter.
So I had to keep writing thechapters for them every week.
then from there It still tooksix years to get it into print.
So that first chapter was, itwas very, it was very rough.
a lot of work and Salty was the same.
(31:04):
Salty, I started writing 2018.
So we're sitting in 2025 and itgot published late last year.
So there's, a lot more thanjust the writing as well.
It's going to get itassessed, to get it critiqued.
one of the things you would do afteryou've written it is that you see.
You'll share it with your critiquefriends, so what happens there is you
(31:25):
read their stuff, they read yours,and they'll tell you about bits they
don't understand, bits that don'twork for them, bits they're like,
why did this character do that?
And as a writer you think, butI've made this really abundantly
clear, but you haven't becausethat bit's still in your head.
So that's why your critique buddiesare your best friends at that stage.
And then there's polishing it.
(31:46):
Taking on that feedback, polishingit up, because a lot goes in before
it gets sent off to the printer.
And then there's a whole process of beingselected to be printed, is that correct?
Yes, so it's a little moredifficult to get printed now.
So I have various things in anthologiesand magazines, but both of my Novels,
(32:08):
Pepsi, The Problem Puppy and Salty.
I've ended up self publishing myself.
Salty actually did have acontract, so I signed the contract.
We had a cover, had layouts, and thenwas a big economic downturn in books.
And after 18 months she had to say,look, I'm sorry, I'm going to send it
(32:28):
back to you because we just don't havethe capacity to publish it at this time.
So I had two decisions to make isessentially I could keep sending it
to publishers and maybe wait another18 months, years, three years,
or I could do everything myself.
(32:49):
And I thought good enough to getpicked up, know the story is ready.
And there are kids with CF who needthis book now, not in five years.
So that was my motivatingfactor to publish it now.
But yes, once you go to thepublisher and get picked up.
(33:09):
You could be
(33:30):
book had waited long enough.
And it had the supportalready, for the publisher, the
timing wasn't right for them.
so with COVID, and then we've had quitean economic downturn, books are A luxury.
I don't, I don't think they're a luxury,but in terms of you're looking at your
(33:52):
lifestyle changes, what you want to maketo your lifestyle, your morning coffee
on your way to work that you could drop.
Buying a book is something you coulddrop because you could go to the library.
can make your coffee at home.
So they're, they're in those first to go.
Eating out, again, the same thing you caneat at home before you go to the movies.
(34:17):
It's just, The nature of what the world,situation of the world after post COVID.
And I'm
only industry that is, is
facing this challenge.
So we had a bit of a boom duringCOVID because everyone was at home
reading and of course now they'reout doing their other things.
But yes, I'm sure we're notthe only industry that is,
is facing these challenges.
(34:39):
definitely drove some different bumps.
in society and, uh, took a lot ofmoney out of the system as well.
Yes.
And look, some of those changes are goodAnd some of them are not so good, but
that's the road we're now traveling.
Yes.
So you've got a self published, booknow, Salty, and we'll put a link in the
(35:01):
show notes about, uh, where people can
come to your website, isthat right, to get it?
It's quite easy.
If you want a signedcopy, it's Sandiparsons.
com and I can send that Australia wide.
you're an international listener,Amazon is your only place.
if you're in Australia, it canbe ordered at any bookstore
through John Reed Distribution.
(35:21):
Wonderful.
So there's lots of positive meaningsin writing a book, especially
one that has special meaning forparticular members in society.
We'll have a break now and after thebreak we'll talk about how you do it.
(35:44):
We've had a look at what it means.
Now, let's have a lookat how you write a novel.
Sandi,
how do you actually, howabout writing a novel?
my best advice for people whoare wanting to start looking
at writing a novel is Amazon.
com.
To try something smaller first.
the short story.
When, when I first started writing,the advice was to write a diary.
(36:08):
And I didn't want to write a diary becauseI thought, oh gee, that's, that's boring.
I know what I've done.
So instead I would get an exercisebook and I wrote the longest
letters to my best friend.
In this exercise book, and we had thisrule that I wasn't allowed to discuss any
of the things I wrote in the diary withher until I presented it to her to read.
(36:29):
So sometimes there were long frenziedwriting sessions into the night,
but that was that practice of, I waspracticing writing, I was getting my
(37:04):
And then it's really down to putting yourbackside on that seat and putting the
effort in and getting rid of the social.
So you're sitting there whenyou're actually working instead
of scrolling on Facebook.
Some people like to research first.
I will often write and they said,and then I'll, uh, in red all
(37:24):
cats, future, Sandi, you will needto look up how to do this later.
And then I'll just keep going I findif I stop and do the research, then I
might get bogged down with something.
Other people like to do all theirresearch first because it will find,
open up other avenues for their story.
And you, you'd have to justsort of mix and play and see.
(37:45):
what suits you best.
And then of course, onceyou've got something,
WA.
I've got a list of critique groupsand writing groups on their website.
If you're a children's writer, youcould go to Society of Children's
Book Writers and Illustrators,which is a worldwide organization.
(38:08):
When we have a very active chapter herein Australia, we have two chapters.
Australia West too.
And you can meet other people whoare writing to critique your work.
And sometimes some people sayit's not done until you look at
it and you can't stand it anymore.
Others say it's, it's fullycooked and ready when you look at
it and there's nothing else youwant to fiddle with or improve.
(38:31):
And other people say I havelooked at this too much.
And it's when you reach that pointof I can't touch another word on
this manuscript that it's ready.
That's, that's individualfor different people.
And hopefully at the end thatyou've got something that other
people are going to enjoy.
I imagine it's a bit like editing apodcast episode that even, you talked
(38:52):
earlier about you do a very roughfragmented version of the books or
chapters beforehand and then you Fleshthem out and you prefer the second step.
That's, twice through the story,
and then you're probably workingon it again and again and again.
So
Yeah,
can see where,
(39:12):
at some point you go,
I just don't know whatto do with this anymore.
yeah.
And also if you, you know, the feedbackfrom your critique buddies is this
is, this is good, this is ready.
But with, with mine, I know salty, thevery first draft was 15, 000 words.
When I first thought, oh, I mightsend it to my critique partners,
(39:33):
it was 25, 000 words, and thefinal finished product is 45, 44.
So there was a lot more filling out, but,and each time I thought, oh, I'm done.
And then you'd let it sit, andyou'd go back and go, oh, no, no,
we're not, it's not baked yet.
And again, that's part of that whole, youmight have that whole story in your head.
You need to get it all out thatthe reader can understand it.
(39:56):
Yeah, it's in your head, youthink you've got it down, but it
doesn't translate for other people.
Like when you're,
Critique readers have a go at it.
Yeah and that's why they're soimportant because no matter what type
of writing you're doing you're comingfrom a position where you know all
the answers but your reader doesn'tand it's really important to take on
that feedback so that you make sureyou've conveyed that message correctly.
(40:21):
So that the reader isn'tlost, because that's where
they'll stop turning the pages.
And particularly in children'sbooks, that's really important.
You want them to keep turning thepages because there's so many other
distractions in the world to run off to.
I think that's the same for everyone.
I read a book by, uh, Johan Hary.
Which was to do with the way our
(40:45):
span of attention is being reducedand how many different things,
go on and we are purposely beingdistracted by all the other,
particularly things to do with the phone,
Yes.
so the
(41:12):
novels and hybrid novels coming.
to the centre, front and centre nowbecause do tick those boxes for the
kids because they're giving thema visual, they're giving them the
text and they don't have to workas hard to decipher the meanings.
Whereas sometimes in the longer formnovels you would know yourself is when
you're reading something heavy andyou're struggling to understand it,
(41:33):
it's, it's very easy to go I'll putyou down and I'll read you later and
I'll wander off and do something elseand with children they often put it
down and they won't pick it back up.
So you want to be havesomething that's them.
And some, some of the children'sbooks too are written specifically
to attract that sort of market.
So there are books that arewritten with gaming in mind
(41:55):
that have points and scoring.
So as the reader's going along, it'sstill got that feel of a video game.
Much more
Yeah, that's interesting.
I've not, heard of that.
Not that I'm into reading children'sbooks and, and that sort of thing, but
just that, that, that whole concept.
so Johan in his book talked aboutthe readership levels and how
(42:16):
they've actually dropped off.
really since social media started tocome into play and how it's a big issue
because particularly fiction booksand personally I've never been a fan
of fiction books but I did read RedDwarf and the the fiction books have
a tendency to be stories that help usinterpret how to operate with people.
(42:39):
And people who read lots and lots offiction tend to be more naturally better
because they've seen all the differentinteractions playing out in the books.
They seem to be better atinteracting in life as well.
Yeah, that's true, but there's also,by some people would say, well then,
fantasy, there's no point in readingfantasy, to them, I don't have the
(43:05):
full article in front of me, so I'msort of summarising, but there was a
point in time where China looked atwhat was bringing out, so they had to.
The iPod they had little computersand they were looking, going
towards the iPad and trying to like,well, what's the difference here?
What, what did theyhave that we don't have?
So they looked at their coursesand they're like, you know,
(43:26):
we're studying the same stuff.
What do we have?
Do they have, we don't have.
So they went to America and longstory short, they discovered
that it was science fiction.
And it was because
(44:05):
But is this possible?
Can we do it in real life?
And if you look at StarTrek, everything apart
(44:28):
very helpful as well.
Not just for the empathy.
Yes, I always considered readingfiction to be a waste of my time,
but definitely didn't understand thevalue of it, which I, looking back,
see that as a wasted opportunity,
or
a missed opportunity,rather than a wasted one.
so I use that example when I talk tothe kids sometimes, and they're going,
(44:49):
they didn't even think of that, isif they don't have that imagination,
they can't conceive of something,then they're not going to try.
books make you ask, What if?
What if?
And that's what you should do asa writer too, you ask, what if?
the what if helps.
So
what if is a great one
is, what if my character did this?
As opposed to, what is the worstthing I can do to my character?
(45:11):
But what if happened?
And what if that happened?
And then you, you look at all thedifferent what ifs, but again, if
you have no imagination, you can'task the what if, you can't write
the stories, and it's that cycle.
you need to also read the booksto be a writer, which is the
other beauty of reading fiction.
(45:44):
those books, if you're not wellversed with how the trends are.
So for example, if you were to submita 90, 000 middle grade novel, going
to look at you and go, hey, not evenfollowing the trends, because that's
really a fantasy novel size, notanywhere near where children are sitting.
Unless JK Rowling.
(46:05):
But she still had to work to get herbooks that big to be accepted because
she's what, she's one of the reasonswhy books are bigger now for children,
or they were bigger, is because uptill then they would always say, oh
no, they'll read series, but theywon't read one great big thick book.
she, she changed that landscape andnow with all the technology and the
computers and that is changing back.
(46:26):
But if you're not reading the fictionbooks in the children's publishing
industry, you don't know that, so you'reprobably going to pitch Your story
the wrong age to the wrong market.
And that's very important to get right.
Yes.
Yes.
There's no point making apicture book adults, unless
(46:48):
it's one of those funny ones.
You're writing to thechild, not the adult.
The other thing would be practice.
So you're going to needto have to practice.
They say, For any job, it's 10, 000 hours.
So it's not 10, 000 words for a writer.
It's still that 10, 000 hours.
And often the first book you writewon't be publishable, but it's you
(47:12):
learning that craft of writing.
So sometimes
just got to
writing.
(47:32):
They said the reading, thereading is important, but you do
need to do the writing too, tounderstand they work together.
thank you very much, Sandi,for being on Forrest.Chat.
All the Forrest.Chat listeners wish youall the best in your future endeavors.
Do you have something that's coming up?
I'm working on another novel for aslightly older age group than Salty.
(47:56):
So Salty's ages nine to 12.
This one will probably bepitched around 12 to 14.
But I'm a slow writer, so it tooksix years to get Salty out, so it
might be six years for this one too.
But again, I'm looking atthat age progression is to
have something else there too,
Fantastic.
we'll look forward toseeing that come out.
eventually.
(48:17):
Thank you for having meon Forrest.Chat, Paul.
It has been lovely talking to youabout books, writing, and what it's
like to live with cystic fibrosis.
Thank you very much, Sandi.
I'm sure all of our listeners willget something valuable from it.
You've been listening to Forrest.Chat,where we talk about individual
endeavour in Western Australia.
What it takes, what itmeans, and how you do it.
(48:40):
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, andin today's episode, we talked with
Sandi Parsons about writing a novel.
Remember, there are four ways toget involved with Forrest.Chat.
Share the domain, Forrest.Chat, with yourfamily and friends and people you meet.
When you sign up for the emails, youget advance notice of the episodes.
(49:02):
Chat slash episodes.
If you have something that you do thatother people may be interested in, book an
interview at Forrest.Chat slash interview.
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Chat slash advert.
I'm looking forward to joiningyou with our next guest.
Until next time, enjoy making it happen.
Welcome to Forrest.Chat,where we talk about individual
endeavour in Western Australia.
What it takes, what itmeans, and how you do it.
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, andin today's episode, we're talking with
Sandi Parsons about writing a novel.
Sandi lives and breathes stories, asa reader, writer, and storyteller.
(00:28):
She lives in Western Australiawith her favourite husband.
some problem puppies, and manyteetering stacks of books.
Welcome to Forrest.Chat, Sandi.
Thank you, Paul.
It's such a pleasure tobe here on Forrest.Chat.
I'm so happy that we could comeand talk books and writing.
Looking forward to hearing about it.
The stories we've had going in thebackground in our email conversations
(00:52):
have been very interesting
I hope they'll be interestingto your listeners as well.
I'm sure they will be.
So
Sandi, we're talking about writing books.
What is it that you're doingin the field of writing books?
I suppose, like everybody, wehave multiple hats as humans.
at the core of what I do,it centres around books.
(01:15):
I'm a school librarian, I'm a reader,and I also write children's books.
So it was just a natural progressionfrom the reader to the librarian.
to the writer.
But I do remember back in year11 being told, you can't make
a living out of reading books.
And I wish I'd been able tosay, well, hey, look at me now.
(01:36):
Here I am playing with books all day.
And that's what I do for a living.
Yes, libraries are full of books.
That's what they're all about.
They are, he did send meoff to do an account course.
And that was not the sort ofbooks that I was interested in.
cause I live with Cystic Fibrosisand he told me that I could not
work in a library because the bookswould be too heavy and too dusty.
(01:58):
But that was a lot of attitude backthen in the 80s about what people with
Cystic Fibrosis could and couldn't do.
So I got a lot of, you couldn't,you shouldn't and you mustn't.
I like to defy statistics wentout and I followed my dream
which was to work with books.
And did any of those issues with cysticfibrosis come into play in the end
(02:18):
No, not when I first started out.
I had been working in libraries for 10years when my lungs went into respiratory
failure and I had some time off to stopand have a lung transplant, but after that
I went straight back into the library.
all through COVID, I worked throughCOVID, I wear a mask around the
kids, there has been nothing aboutworking in a library that a person
(02:41):
with cystic fibrosis would not do.
That's great to hear.
It gives plenty of hope to someonewho's in that scenario, I'm sure.
Well, that's one of the reasons why Iwrote my latest book, because of the
Features growing up as a person who read.
I read during my treatmentsand the books were my friends.
So they could take me on adventures whileI was doing all of those treatments,
(03:03):
but there wasn't anyone like me.
And when I finally did find fictionwith characters with CF, they used
that standard plot point of poorDying person was their plot point, it
was again around that you shouldn't,you couldn't, and you mustn't.
the person with cystic fibrosiswas there to generate sympathy.
(03:26):
And that wasn't my lifewith Cystic Fibrosis.
So I wrote Salty for the childrentoday to know there is more.
This is a realistic representationof living with CF where you're
managing your treatments and you'regoing to school and you're not
spending your entire life in hospital
so what does a life of a person withcystic fibrosis look like these days?
(03:50):
So today there's A lot more moderntreatments, there are different
medications, we also have atreatment called modulators now.
They've got some pretty fancynames, so there's Okambe, there's
Trikafta, there's Kalydeco.
And they are not a cure, but they arethe first treatment that looks at fixing
(04:14):
the actual problem, rather than beinglike antibiotics, anti inflammatories
and slapping a bandaid on the problem.
So they work at a level to compensate sothat your body works normally instead of
how a body with cystic fibrosis works.
So there is a lot ofhope for the kids today.
So they're still doing treatments.
They're still taking tablets.
(04:36):
They're not facing very, very short lifeexpectancies like we were in the 70s.
And you've beaten those expectationsby, orders of magnitude.
Yes, so my original diagnosis back in the70s was there was a 50 percent chance that
I would make it to 13, and the averagelife expectancy for a child with cystic
(04:58):
fibrosis at that time was 7, so this wasa very generous 50 percent chance you'll
make it to 13 assessment, and I am 52.
I am 13 years post transplant,and I have a 29 year old child,
which was not something thatwas even considered in the 70s.
We would even be adults, letalone be having our own children.
(05:20):
So when you come back to, books and thestory that you've written, which is called
Salty, then you've built in, effectively,your life's outlook into that.
Would that be a fair thing to say?
Yeah, so when I've read books aboutcharacters with cystic fibrosis,
again, as I said, they focused on thesickness, whereas that wasn't my life.
My life in high school and primaryschool was being worried when I
(05:43):
coughed, because when you cough,and COVID, people will look at you.
They will look at you because you'recoughing, you must be dirty, you
must be diseased, you're contagious.
There is that stigma that isattached when you cough, and you've
got a big chunky chesty cough.
And that has been around longer thanCOVID, and obviously it's worse now.
I one time during, I think it wasthe SARS outbreak, and I coughed
(06:07):
and I cleaned supermarket aisles,because people were just scared.
So as a child, when people are lookingat you like that, it's very confronting.
I hedge.
One of my primary school teachers actuallysaid, put your head in a bucket of
water three times and pull it out twice,because he was annoyed at my coughing.
So the other, other problems I facedas a child with cystic fibrosis was the
(06:32):
endless worry of getting my enzymes right.
So a lot of people associate CFjust with the lungs, but it's
actually an entire body disease.
The two systems that affects the most arethe respiratory and the digestive system.
That means I can't digest my own food.
So I take enzymes.
If you get that wrong, you'vegot two, two ways that can go.
(06:54):
If you have too, too little, youcan end up with diarrhea, have
too many, you're constipated.
So there was always that endlessworry of where is the bathroom?
I need, I need it, I need toknow where the bathroom is.
And particularly as a girl, that was justsomething, it was highly embarrassing.
You've got this cough,you've got tummy troubles.
And so that's the only troublesthat my character, Dara, faces.
(07:17):
trying to take her tabletsdiscreetly so that people don't know.
Those normal worries of someone who'sliving with cystic fibrosis and going to
school in that peer pressure where haveto be normal and you have to fit in.
And when you live with
fibrosis, you don't fit in.
society isn't probably preparedfor what you're facing, would
(07:38):
that be fairly accurate?
I think so.
When, when people, when I talk aboutthe things that I've gone through in
my life, I'm very much, yes, okay,that happened and it's very sad.
But, here's the moral of thestory, but they're focused more on
the, or the trauma that happens.
And it's like, but, but, but, I didall these other good things too.
(07:59):
But what are some of thosegood things that you did while
you were going through school?
Uh, so going through school I think it wasthe library was my safe place and I would
often, I suppose, possibly be shelteredby the teachers and the librarians.
So I had a safe place to go, isalways nice when you're a bit
(08:20):
different to the other children.
But I still did all the normal things.
I used to be a very goodlong distance runner.
I'm not anymore, but back then Icould do long distance running.
And for a short person, I'm only 5'1 Iwas actually pretty good at high jump.
a little while.
I edited the school magazine and Igot to have a pretty normal life.
(08:45):
were, there were times I wentto hospital and that was like
a totally different life.
Um, and again, because we weresick children and we were dying,
staff would let us get awaywith anything we wanted to.
we would have IV races upand down the corridors.
We'd, yeah, be out after dark where weshouldn't be, roaming around the hospital.
And it was all overlooked because Isuppose they thought we may as well
(09:08):
let them have the fun while they can.
So that's a pretty, uh, in someways a very privileged place to be.
Yeah, I mean obviously there wasintermixed in that was, we were doing
that stuff and at the same time we, theremight be three of us down there running
around with our IV poles having a lot offun, but also with the knowledge that one
of our friends that had been our friendsall our life was upstairs in the ward
(09:31):
and they weren't coming home that time.
that this was going tobe their last admission.
So it was, it was tempered.
go to CF camps and one of the firstthings I would always do is look
around to see and make sure that myfriends had made it through the year.
Because back in the early80s, we didn't a lot outside.
There wasn't the internet.
(09:51):
So we were relying on sendingletters and things like that.
Um, so that was one of my, so that'snot a normal thing for a child to
do when they first go to camp isto look around and make sure all
their friends are still alive.
That was my normal, so Idon't know any different.
So you, you don't know the differencethen between how that impacted you
(10:12):
versus how that impacted, maybe weshould be talking about this in a
later question, but there's a big thingthere about, you know, you went through
things that other people haven't gonethrough, but because you went through
it, you don't know what the alternativewas like, if you know what I mean.
And that's what the kids with CFare facing today, because in my day,
we, we grew up together, we had thecamps, we were in hospital together,
(10:35):
and there was a lot of fun, and I wasnever scared about anything that ever
happened to me, because I'd alwaysseen my friends go through it first.
I knew what the next stage of CF was.
And today, because of the infection,cross infection guideline rules, they're
not allowed to mix with each other.
So, children with CF today growup isolated from one another.
(10:58):
And they don't have that companionship,they don't have the people to talk to
who are going through the same things.
that was another motivating factorfor me to write Salty, so that there
was something they could relate to.
Because again, as a child, you don'twant to talk about your bathroom issues.
(11:19):
You don't want to talk about how itmakes you feel when everyone in the
class stares at you while you'recoughing until you've gone red.
So was my way of bridging that gap.
I can't give them friendships thatI had in childhood, but I can give
them a fictional character thatthey might be able to relate to.
that sounds, devastating for the currentgeneration going through that, because
(11:42):
being isolated is the worst thing ever.
Yes, and the parents today are veryprotective, and as a mother I can
understand why they are mama bears.
But to my generation, the risksalways outweighed the benefits.
Because the benefits of havinga friendship, knowing what was
(12:04):
happening, having someone to talk to,they're just, you can't measure that.
And never want to give that up.
So I still have friends today withCystic Fibrosis that I out with.
We do it in safe ways.
you still find a wayto, you To be together.
That's uh, that's an extremely good thing.
(12:25):
Sandi, what does it take you to bea writer of a story that has such
a close connection to your life?
I suppose, in this sense, Iwasn't just channeling, um,
My inner child for the magic.
For me instead of just having tochannel my inner child for the magic
and the wonder was also channelingmy inner child that feeling not being
(12:51):
quite fitting in and And it felt.
So there is a lot of me in Dara.
Her fears were my fears.
Except for I didn't haveher extensive vocabulary.
So I gave her something I didn't have.
That's the the beautyof hindsight, isn't it?
And a bit of experience in life as well.
(13:12):
Also, Dara, it was, it was partly a wayto introduce the medical terms, so for the
people who didn't have CF, I could explaina little bit about what these fancy
words that I was using, like percussion,which is a medical treatment that we use.
So, Dara has a love of old and lost words.
Of all, all of them, myfavourite would be scurryfunge.
(13:33):
Now, she says that to the girls,they think it's the plague and
that doesn't help her cause at all.
scurryfunge is a brilliant word.
In the olden days, a scurryfungewas when you saw your neighbour
at the top of the driveway.
And in between then and when sheknocked on your door, you ran around
cleaning your house frantically.
And of course the modern equivalent iswhen mum says, Have you cleaned your room?
(13:55):
And you shove everything under your bed.
So there's a, definite connection therebetween, you and, and your writings.
what are your strengthsthat allow you to write?
I'm not a natural writer, so Idon't know if I have strengths.
So some people have the strength thatthey have stories that just come to
them and they're compelled to be told.
(14:19):
I'm the sort of writer who wants to bea writer, And so I have to force myself
to sit in the seat to write the storiesbecause they're not chattering in my head.
And I've had to learnhow to do all of this.
And I suppose when I first startedout, I didn't know there were
courses you could do to, to write.
I just thought you, it wasjust something you could do.
(14:39):
You could either do it or you didn't.
And for some people who do havethose voices in the story sitting
in their head, Maybe it islike that, but it's not for me.
To write even though I didn't have thosestories in my head, chattering away to me.
(15:05):
And so I used that determinationto always force my bottom into the
seat, my hands on the keyboard.
your background then has givenyou a pretty strong motivation
to get in and do things.
Does that show up in other parts of whatyou've needed to do to write the book?
The things around theactual writing itself?
I don't know that so much as there aretimes obviously when my body lets me
(15:30):
down too, where as much as I want towrite and I know I've got deadlines or
that, but my boss is physically justnot capable of it or because of the
medications I'm on, my brain's a bit mush.
So there is definitely a determinationof when I've got the time and
when everything is all lined upto make the most of that time
(15:53):
Uh, and um, uh, and uh, uh, um,They just, they're just, they're
just, they're just trying to do it.
because there are days where I might bedrained from work or my medications has
(16:15):
changed I just, I don't feel like writingand I'm not a writer who writes every
day and that's more because my body letsme down than because I don't want to.
do you have a regular scheduleor flow that you normally try to
get into, or it just is today'sthe day and let's have a go?
(16:36):
Okay.
Thank you.
no, because post transplant life is,you, you don't know what sort of day
you're ever going to wake up with.
Is you can start off with a good day andit just turns around and you're having
medication side effects and it's, it'sa let's just get through the day day.
And other days you can wake up thinking,oh, it's a just get through the day day
and it turns out to be a really good day.
(16:58):
And that's it.
The medication we take fortransplants is effectively a poison.
So it's compressing my immune systemso that I don't reject these lovely
lungs that I have been gifted.
And sometimes your body just doesn'tcope with everything that's going on.
We're putting into itthat's not so pleasant.
(17:20):
So I just each day as it is
so you're really working onyour ability to be flexible.
Yes.
Yeah.
Flexibility has alwaysbeen my key strength.
That's the same when I'mworking in the library too.
If I'm having one of those moments wheremy heart decides it's a idea to run at
(17:41):
130 beats a minute, I can sit quietlyat the desk and I can catalogue books.
And then I leave the putting the booksaway, which is bending up and down
to times where my heart is beating.
Behaving normally.
So it's about being flexible.
And both jobs, being a writerand being a librarian, give me
that flexibility to do that.
so that flexibility you live with,and it's something that a lot of
(18:05):
people actually struggle with.
They like to have that set thing todo, that rhythm of life, so to speak.
Yes.
But then It's also, I can't bespontaneous, so I can't go on a
spontaneous holiday, like book aholiday and then sit there in the
lovely beach tropical writing becausethat's something I have to plan.
(18:26):
I've got the flexibility day today, but I also need to schedule
things in advance around my health.
So I've bit of a mix of both.
so that longer term scheduling, isthat around, commitments you have
to, attend to and things like that?
No, it's making sure we have, um,the correct information from our
doctors so that we've got all, allof our medications are up to date.
(18:47):
We've got enough scripts.
We've got a letter from the doctor sayingwhy we're carrying this small pharmacy.
Uh, we've got contacts so weknow where we're going to go.
Working out travel insurance is notcheap or easy, that comes with a medical
assessment usually, so it's not like youcan just ring up and book, it's, you've
got to schedule everything in so youmake sure you're good to go on the day.
(19:09):
Right, so there's a huge planningeffort goes in beforehand and that's
what makes it trickier to, to doon the, on the spur of the moment.
Yep,
you talked about, you don't have thatstory bubbling away in your head.
To me sounds like a, likea writer's block almost.
So you must have some, uh,tactics or something like that
that you use to get through.
(19:31):
I work in what I call a dirty draft,which is before The first draft.
And it's literally, this happens,that happens, she's going to
say this, this, this, this.
And it's, it's dirty and it'smessy and, and it's horrid.
But then once I have that andI have something on the page,
(19:52):
ideas on how they will get fromthese points will start to come.
And sometimes when I'm writing thedialogue, it'll, it'll have its own voice.
The dialogue will have its own voice.
yeah, so the character'sdialogue will have its own voice.
Is that I'll just know what theywill say, or how they would react.
But that's usually not untilI'm well into the first or the
(20:13):
second draft that I find that.
And again, that stubbornness of bottomon the seat, typing away, I don't
have those voices talking to me.
I'd love to have the voices talking to me.
Sounds you say it like that, but
it sounds like so much easier to do that.
Yes, yes.
(20:34):
I'm always very jealous when they saythey have the character talking to them
in their head, because I just don't.
as I said, when I get to thesecond draft, then I really know my
character by that point, and I knowwhat their hopes and their fears
are, that makes it a lot easier.
And that's the part I enjoy alot more than that first bit.
once you get a flow on, it starts toease up and become much better for you.
(20:58):
Yes.
And I've started doing some techniques,which I started, I went to a PD. And they
said to go and do some improv classes.
So that's about your imagination andjust coming up with something and
going with it no matter what happens.
And I thought that was interesting soI did that and I started applying it at
(21:20):
school and so the kids would say thingsto me like I had a dog bite on my arm, big
bandage, and I would just say the silliestthing that would come into my head like
there was a group of aliens that wereinvading and I did the big Wonder Woman
thing and they went pow pow pow hole in myarm and that's how I got a bandage thing.
And as the kids go on they now knowif they ask me something, I will say
(21:43):
something wild and outlandish, and it hasgotten better since I've been doing it.
Those miniature little improvsof just saying the silliest thing
I can think of when they ask methe question, running with it.
And of course questions back sometimestoo, and you've got to keep going,
which, which makes it a bit harder.
With a straight face.
With a straight face, that'simpossible, how could you do that?
(22:05):
But some of those have now, then become,because I also have an activity book
that I've written full of writingprompts for children, and some of
those things, the crazy things I'vesaid have become my writing prompts.
have a double purpose, and it's, I supposeit's like tapping into your creativity.
during the day so you cando other things later.
So that you, even if I'm notwriting, I'm still being creative.
(22:26):
I read a book by Alan Elder from MASH, hedid, he played the main character on MASH.
And he, I believe, also got verymuch into the improvisation.
side of things as well.
he found that extremely, beneficial.
I'm pretty sure it was Alan Alda.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
But that's, uh, in my mind,that's the connection.
(22:50):
I said, it has been helpfulto do those little things.
There's sometimes like,oh, that's not a bad idea.
And then I go write that downfor my writing prompts later.
a couple of them I've even tried doinglittle short stories on myself later too.
To then expand it and, and get a bitmore, uh, out of doing that process.
(23:10):
But I said, the practices inbeing that creative and making
something silly out of nothing.
And of laugh too.
I'm sure it would.
I'm sure it would.
We've had a look at what it takesto write a book that's so closely
aligned with your own life.
We'll have a break now.
And after the break, We'llhave a look at what it means
(23:39):
We've had a look at what it takes.
Now, let's have a look at what it means.
Sandi, what does it mean to you,your family, or the community that
you're able to write these novels?
For me, there was always a burning desire.
From the first time I realised thatname on the cover was actually a real
(24:01):
person writing the book, and this wassomething I could do, it became a goal.
And my goal was always to write, likeI said, I don't have the stories.
The goal was always to write a book,not because I had a story to tell.
And I think partly that was becausebooks had meant so much to me and I
wanted to give back so that childrentoday had stories that they enjoyed.
(24:24):
So that was my original motivation.
And my first, novel, which is a chapterbook called Pepsi the Puppy, was based
on the shenanigans of my actual dog,Pepsi, who was a blue heeler, who was
very, very naughty, and she provideda lot of fodder for the stories.
And then I employed the techniquesof exaggeration, and children
(25:14):
but I can't market
(25:45):
and all the
(26:56):
That's an amazing gift to those kids.
I hope so.
I hope that even if it just meanssomething to one child, then it's worth
it for that one child to have a connectionand know that they are not alone, that
there are other people with CF who havethe same fears and worries that they do.
Then it's worth
(27:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And what about the families of those kids?
Do you think they'llgain something from it?
I'm hoping that, maybe notso much the families, but
Maybe other children who know kids withCF may get a little bit of an insight
into our headspace, of what it's liketo live with something where you're
(27:40):
constantly worried about being judgedand not fitting in and not being normal.
Because, we all do that, weall have something where we
don't feel that we're normal.
Whether we're not good at sports,whether we're not good at math,
there is always something.
But maybe, it will be that realisationfor them that having CF isn't actually
(28:03):
getting special treatment when theygot time off to do certain things
that they might need to go and do.
Maybe.
The way I look at things, andeven this podcast, helps Thanks.
People see other people's perspectiveson a whole raft of different things.
My guests have included people doingall sorts of different activities,
(28:27):
different endeavors, and sometimesyou don't pick out the same things as
other people do from those episodes.
No, um, my son will deny this everhappened, when he was in year eight, he
asked if he could read Twilight and Isaid, no, I think you're a bit young.
He borrowed it from the school library,he came home, at the time, Because he
(28:51):
will, he will now tell you he's neverread that book, but at the time he would
swear, what do you mean it's a love story?
This is a story about werewolvesversus vampires, because he
just didn't read the love bits.
He wasn't interested in them,he skipped over them, and he's
concentrated on that thread of thevampires versus the werewolves.
we all do that when we, we bringour perspective when we're reading
(29:12):
something, when we're doing something,when we're watching something,
sometimes maybe this helps us walk.
In someone else's shoes.
Absolutely, and we can alllearn from somebody else.
Yes,
And what does you writingbooks mean for your family?
I think.
my, for my husband, it's Gosh,that's a really interesting question.
(29:37):
I don't know if I have an answer to it.
I suppose in some ways theywould see it as an achievement
and something to be proud of.
I know, I know my sister willoften say, my sister's done this
great thing and share a post.
So I guess it's for the family,it's something I've done
(29:58):
that they can be proud of.
It certainly is.
Absolutely.
Yeah, because as I said,
No one forces you to write a book.
It's either you've got a storyin your head that you've got to
get out, or you make yourself sitthere and it all comes from you.
Because books don't get written unlessthat person is determined to get them out.
(30:19):
It's a lot of will power in there.
There's a lot of effortin there, isn't there?
So how much time do you actuallyspend getting the book written?
All
Pepsi, I wrote very quickly, as in myfirst draft, because I it in to the year
three students, and I said to them, oh,can I read this first chapter to you?
(30:41):
They said yes, and at the endof it, they said, can we have
the next chapter next week?
And I went, oh, okay, sure.
I didn't have a next chapter.
So I had to keep writing thechapters for them every week.
then from there It still tooksix years to get it into print.
So that first chapter was, itwas very, it was very rough.
a lot of work and Salty was the same.
(31:04):
Salty, I started writing 2018.
So we're sitting in 2025 and itgot published late last year.
So there's, a lot more thanjust the writing as well.
It's going to get itassessed, to get it critiqued.
one of the things you would do afteryou've written it is that you see.
You'll share it with your critiquefriends, so what happens there is you
(31:25):
read their stuff, they read yours,and they'll tell you about bits they
don't understand, bits that don'twork for them, bits they're like,
why did this character do that?
And as a writer you think, butI've made this really abundantly
clear, but you haven't becausethat bit's still in your head.
So that's why your critique buddiesare your best friends at that stage.
And then there's polishing it.
(31:46):
Taking on that feedback, polishingit up, because a lot goes in before
it gets sent off to the printer.
And then there's a whole process of beingselected to be printed, is that correct?
Yes, so it's a little moredifficult to get printed now.
So I have various things in anthologiesand magazines, but both of my Novels,
(32:08):
Pepsi, The Problem Puppy and Salty.
I've ended up self publishing myself.
Salty actually did have acontract, so I signed the contract.
We had a cover, had layouts, and thenwas a big economic downturn in books.
And after 18 months she had to say,look, I'm sorry, I'm going to send it
(32:28):
back to you because we just don't havethe capacity to publish it at this time.
So I had two decisions to make isessentially I could keep sending it
to publishers and maybe wait another18 months, years, three years,
or I could do everything myself.
(32:49):
And I thought good enough to getpicked up, know the story is ready.
And there are kids with CF who needthis book now, not in five years.
So that was my motivatingfactor to publish it now.
But yes, once you go to thepublisher and get picked up.
(33:09):
You could be
(33:30):
book had waited long enough.
And it had the supportalready, for the publisher, the
timing wasn't right for them.
so with COVID, and then we've had quitean economic downturn, books are A luxury.
I don't, I don't think they're a luxury,but in terms of you're looking at your
(33:52):
lifestyle changes, what you want to maketo your lifestyle, your morning coffee
on your way to work that you could drop.
Buying a book is something you coulddrop because you could go to the library.
can make your coffee at home.
So they're, they're in those first to go.
Eating out, again, the same thing you caneat at home before you go to the movies.
(34:17):
It's just, The nature of what the world,situation of the world after post COVID.
And I'm
only industry that is, is
facing this challenge.
So we had a bit of a boom duringCOVID because everyone was at home
reading and of course now they'reout doing their other things.
But yes, I'm sure we're notthe only industry that is,
is facing these challenges.
(34:39):
definitely drove some different bumps.
in society and, uh, took a lot ofmoney out of the system as well.
Yes.
And look, some of those changes are goodAnd some of them are not so good, but
that's the road we're now traveling.
Yes.
So you've got a self published, booknow, Salty, and we'll put a link in the
(35:01):
show notes about, uh, where people can
come to your website, isthat right, to get it?
It's quite easy.
If you want a signedcopy, it's Sandiparsons.
com and I can send that Australia wide.
you're an international listener,Amazon is your only place.
if you're in Australia, it canbe ordered at any bookstore
through John Reed Distribution.
(35:21):
Wonderful.
So there's lots of positive meaningsin writing a book, especially
one that has special meaning forparticular members in society.
We'll have a break now and after thebreak we'll talk about how you do it.
(35:44):
We've had a look at what it means.
Now, let's have a lookat how you write a novel.
Sandi,
how do you actually, howabout writing a novel?
my best advice for people whoare wanting to start looking
at writing a novel is Amazon.
com.
To try something smaller first.
the short story.
When, when I first started writing,the advice was to write a diary.
(36:08):
And I didn't want to write a diary becauseI thought, oh gee, that's, that's boring.
I know what I've done.
So instead I would get an exercisebook and I wrote the longest
letters to my best friend.
In this exercise book, and we had thisrule that I wasn't allowed to discuss any
of the things I wrote in the diary withher until I presented it to her to read.
(36:29):
So sometimes there were long frenziedwriting sessions into the night,
but that was that practice of, I waspracticing writing, I was getting my
(37:04):
And then it's really down to putting yourbackside on that seat and putting the
effort in and getting rid of the social.
So you're sitting there whenyou're actually working instead
of scrolling on Facebook.
Some people like to research first.
I will often write and they said,and then I'll, uh, in red all
(37:24):
cats, future, Sandi, you will needto look up how to do this later.
And then I'll just keep going I findif I stop and do the research, then I
might get bogged down with something.
Other people like to do all theirresearch first because it will find,
open up other avenues for their story.
And you, you'd have to justsort of mix and play and see.
(37:45):
what suits you best.
And then of course, onceyou've got something,
WA.
I've got a list of critique groupsand writing groups on their website.
If you're a children's writer, youcould go to Society of Children's
Book Writers and Illustrators,which is a worldwide organization.
(38:08):
When we have a very active chapter herein Australia, we have two chapters.
Australia West too.
And you can meet other people whoare writing to critique your work.
And sometimes some people sayit's not done until you look at
it and you can't stand it anymore.
Others say it's, it's fullycooked and ready when you look at
it and there's nothing else youwant to fiddle with or improve.
(38:31):
And other people say I havelooked at this too much.
And it's when you reach that pointof I can't touch another word on
this manuscript that it's ready.
That's, that's individualfor different people.
And hopefully at the end thatyou've got something that other
people are going to enjoy.
I imagine it's a bit like editing apodcast episode that even, you talked
(38:52):
earlier about you do a very roughfragmented version of the books or
chapters beforehand and then you Fleshthem out and you prefer the second step.
That's, twice through the story,
and then you're probably workingon it again and again and again.
So
Yeah,
can see where,
(39:12):
at some point you go,
I just don't know whatto do with this anymore.
yeah.
And also if you, you know, the feedbackfrom your critique buddies is this
is, this is good, this is ready.
But with, with mine, I know salty, thevery first draft was 15, 000 words.
When I first thought, oh, I mightsend it to my critique partners,
(39:33):
it was 25, 000 words, and thefinal finished product is 45, 44.
So there was a lot more filling out, but,and each time I thought, oh, I'm done.
And then you'd let it sit, andyou'd go back and go, oh, no, no,
we're not, it's not baked yet.
And again, that's part of that whole, youmight have that whole story in your head.
You need to get it all out thatthe reader can understand it.
(39:56):
Yeah, it's in your head, youthink you've got it down, but it
doesn't translate for other people.
Like when you're,
Critique readers have a go at it.
Yeah and that's why they're soimportant because no matter what type
of writing you're doing you're comingfrom a position where you know all
the answers but your reader doesn'tand it's really important to take on
that feedback so that you make sureyou've conveyed that message correctly.
(40:21):
So that the reader isn'tlost, because that's where
they'll stop turning the pages.
And particularly in children'sbooks, that's really important.
You want them to keep turning thepages because there's so many other
distractions in the world to run off to.
I think that's the same for everyone.
I read a book by, uh, Johan Hary.
Which was to do with the way our
(40:45):
span of attention is being reducedand how many different things,
go on and we are purposely beingdistracted by all the other,
particularly things to do with the phone,
Yes.
so the
(41:12):
novels and hybrid novels coming.
to the centre, front and centre nowbecause do tick those boxes for the
kids because they're giving thema visual, they're giving them the
text and they don't have to workas hard to decipher the meanings.
Whereas sometimes in the longer formnovels you would know yourself is when
you're reading something heavy andyou're struggling to understand it,
(41:33):
it's, it's very easy to go I'll putyou down and I'll read you later and
I'll wander off and do something elseand with children they often put it
down and they won't pick it back up.
So you want to be havesomething that's them.
And some, some of the children'sbooks too are written specifically
to attract that sort of market.
So there are books that arewritten with gaming in mind
(41:55):
that have points and scoring.
So as the reader's going along, it'sstill got that feel of a video game.
Much more
Yeah, that's interesting.
I've not, heard of that.
Not that I'm into reading children'sbooks and, and that sort of thing, but
just that, that, that whole concept.
so Johan in his book talked aboutthe readership levels and how
(42:16):
they've actually dropped off.
really since social media started tocome into play and how it's a big issue
because particularly fiction booksand personally I've never been a fan
of fiction books but I did read RedDwarf and the the fiction books have
a tendency to be stories that help usinterpret how to operate with people.
(42:39):
And people who read lots and lots offiction tend to be more naturally better
because they've seen all the differentinteractions playing out in the books.
They seem to be better atinteracting in life as well.
Yeah, that's true, but there's also,by some people would say, well then,
fantasy, there's no point in readingfantasy, to them, I don't have the
(43:05):
full article in front of me, so I'msort of summarising, but there was a
point in time where China looked atwhat was bringing out, so they had to.
The iPod they had little computersand they were looking, going
towards the iPad and trying to like,well, what's the difference here?
What, what did theyhave that we don't have?
So they looked at their coursesand they're like, you know,
(43:26):
we're studying the same stuff.
What do we have?
Do they have, we don't have.
So they went to America and longstory short, they discovered
that it was science fiction.
And it was because
(44:05):
But is this possible?
Can we do it in real life?
And if you look at StarTrek, everything apart
(44:28):
very helpful as well.
Not just for the empathy.
Yes, I always considered readingfiction to be a waste of my time,
but definitely didn't understand thevalue of it, which I, looking back,
see that as a wasted opportunity,
or
a missed opportunity,rather than a wasted one.
so I use that example when I talk tothe kids sometimes, and they're going,
(44:49):
they didn't even think of that, isif they don't have that imagination,
they can't conceive of something,then they're not going to try.
books make you ask, What if?
What if?
And that's what you should do asa writer too, you ask, what if?
the what if helps.
So
what if is a great one
is, what if my character did this?
As opposed to, what is the worstthing I can do to my character?
(45:11):
But what if happened?
And what if that happened?
And then you, you look at all thedifferent what ifs, but again, if
you have no imagination, you can'task the what if, you can't write
the stories, and it's that cycle.
you need to also read the booksto be a writer, which is the
other beauty of reading fiction.
(45:44):
those books, if you're not wellversed with how the trends are.
So for example, if you were to submita 90, 000 middle grade novel, going
to look at you and go, hey, not evenfollowing the trends, because that's
really a fantasy novel size, notanywhere near where children are sitting.
Unless JK Rowling.
(46:05):
But she still had to work to get herbooks that big to be accepted because
she's what, she's one of the reasonswhy books are bigger now for children,
or they were bigger, is because uptill then they would always say, oh
no, they'll read series, but theywon't read one great big thick book.
she, she changed that landscape andnow with all the technology and the
computers and that is changing back.
(46:26):
But if you're not reading the fictionbooks in the children's publishing
industry, you don't know that, so you'reprobably going to pitch Your story
the wrong age to the wrong market.
And that's very important to get right.
Yes.
Yes.
There's no point making apicture book adults, unless
(46:48):
it's one of those funny ones.
You're writing to thechild, not the adult.
The other thing would be practice.
So you're going to needto have to practice.
They say, For any job, it's 10, 000 hours.
So it's not 10, 000 words for a writer.
It's still that 10, 000 hours.
And often the first book you writewon't be publishable, but it's you
(47:12):
learning that craft of writing.
So sometimes
just got to
writing.
(47:32):
They said the reading, thereading is important, but you do
need to do the writing too, tounderstand they work together.
thank you very much, Sandi,for being on Forrest.Chat.
All the Forrest.Chat listeners wish youall the best in your future endeavors.
Do you have something that's coming up?
I'm working on another novel for aslightly older age group than Salty.
(47:56):
So Salty's ages nine to 12.
This one will probably bepitched around 12 to 14.
But I'm a slow writer, so it tooksix years to get Salty out, so it
might be six years for this one too.
But again, I'm looking atthat age progression is to
have something else there too,
Fantastic.
we'll look forward toseeing that come out.
eventually.
(48:17):
Thank you for having meon Forrest.Chat, Paul.
It has been lovely talking to youabout books, writing, and what it's
like to live with cystic fibrosis.
Thank you very much, Sandi.
I'm sure all of our listeners willget something valuable from it.
You've been listening to Forrest.Chat,where we talk about individual
endeavour in Western Australia.
What it takes, what itmeans, and how you do it.
(48:40):
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, andin today's episode, we talked with
Sandi Parsons about writing a novel.
Remember, there are four ways toget involved with Forrest.Chat.
Share the domain, Forrest.Chat, with yourfamily and friends and people you meet.
When you sign up for the emails, youget advance notice of the episodes.
(49:02):
Chat slash episodes.
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