Collaboration In Music: Bringing Out Each Other’s Strengths with Spencer Lynn

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
you find what makes you special yeah
you know and you and
and you learn to recognize
what makes other people special
and and being able to acknowledge that
I think is a really important part
of working with other people
as well yeah
I love that so much you're gonna make me cry
that's so beautiful wow
what makes them special and what makes you special
and then like lift each other up right
and collaborate in a way where

(00:21):
both of your specialties or all of you
if you're collaborating with more than yeah
just one person right yeah
like everybody can give their best to the project
I think that's so wonderful yeah
hey Vox Star and welcome to from singer to artist

(00:43):
I'm Lara Chapman award winning singer and songwriter
turned viral vocal coach and the host of this show
at VoxTape Studios
we help singers from all over the world
level up their voices
by teaching them the three fundamental skills
all singers need technique
awareness and artistry whether you're looking to go pro
or just develop your voice for fun
my team and I are here to help

(01:05):
check the link in the description
to book your first session
or grab some of our other resources
we are back in New York City with two special guests
today we have Coach Emily from our team here with us
and oh my gosh
I don't even know how to introduce you Spencer Lynn
because you've done so many things yeah
oh my goodness yeah

(01:25):
haha welcome to the podcast
thank you so much it's great to be here
thank you for being here you have done singing
you have done acting you have done shows
and you are also a writer too
yes
so you have like a big big
big background in the theater world
yeah and yeah
definitely theater world film world
as well as of more recently
um and I just love getting my hands in

(01:47):
wherever people need help with projects or
you know yeah
whatever is needed to be done
so I've kind of done it all
I love that well
thank you for being here first of all
thank you for having me sharing
of course for sharing
you know
like your story and all the things that you have done
and I'm so excited to dig into it yeah
but before we do you two went to college together

(02:08):
yeah Shannon Doan
Shannon Doan it's a great day to be a Hornet
it is was our
our that's what the people say motto
our motto
it was an awesome time to be in Virginia
it was a great time to be
in 2018 to 2022 was a great time to be in Virginia
yeah um
and yes yeah
so we went to college together

(02:28):
yeah and we are ridiculous yes
you know I think this episode is very much gonna be me
observing you that's giggling about crazy people
just us you know
just I love it listen
you survive a BFA program together for four years
and there's a certain bond
oh yeah
of course that can
that can never go away and that
you know 100%

(02:48):
100% what made you want to get into musical theater
in the first place or theater in general
yeah it's
you know
so my grandparents actually met as radio singers
wow back in the heyday
um kind of around World War 2 that whole time
wow so
theater was always a big thing
that we talked about as a family

(03:10):
um
and we moved to San Diego when I was like 9 years old
um
and there was this flyer to do a
a musical called suessical
the musical awesome
um
and I just kind of wanted to do it
and that was you know
I was 9 years old and I haven't stopped since then
for more than probably three months at a time

(03:32):
yeah um wow
and it was it was kind of just a whim
I didn't want to go the first day
I was playing Lego Batman on the Wii
because I had forgotten that I signed up
and my mom was like let's go
you're doing it
we paid the fee for at least this one day
let's get you over there and then yeah
it was just you know
I think
hanging out with artists is such a special energy

(03:54):
and a special
tingling in the air that you
once you taste it
you kind of know whether it's for you or not
and it was very much for me very
very quickly very cool
I remember that when I
my first day of school at the New York Film Academy
after high school
that was my first experience being around performers
and you know

(04:15):
like just like a bunch of performers in the same room
and I was like oh my god
what is happening yeah
what is happening very different energy
yeah it's a different energy
and I think for a lot of people it's
you know the first time of feeling uh
reciprocal energy uh huh
you know cause I think a lot of times uh

(04:35):
younger artists in any medium
you know find themselves in a
in a choir an orchestra
in a theater camp and are like
oh oh
there's other people like me yeah
I'm not as weird as I thought I was yeah
and these people think I'm cool
yeah and like
and like wait here
I'm sick as heck yeah
that's awesome I love that

(04:57):
I love that yeah
for me it was like so
like so new
and I I'm also
I'm not the typical
like cause I
I would never considered myself an actor
sure I was always a singer okay
and so I I was more like
you know
keeping to myself and there was just so much loud yes

(05:17):
oh my god I'm sorry
is that every that no no
no no
no top three descriptors I am also a very loud voice
but you know like when there's like
just like when you feed off of each other's energy
and it just becomes more and more and more
and more and more and I was like
I'm gonna go home now for my lunch break
and I will be back later
cause I need a minute to myself

(05:37):
yeah well
and that's I still have that where like
you know now I
I work in theater and do theater all the time
and it's like I still am like OK
downtime is needed you know what I mean yes
it is just such a
for me in particular
it's such a draining energy cause I love it so much
I wanna give it my all whenever I'm there
so it'll be like a two hour music rehearsal

(05:58):
where I'm teaching somebody a song or something
yeah and by the end
I'm just like I'm
I'm dead I can't yeah
which is like funny I was like
you know playing keys for a few hours going like
these are the notes yeah
but you're just so focused right
you're so focused and there's so much joy
like the fact that it's happening
yes is so insane that you're also just kind of like

(06:20):
yes I love
and then are you know
drained and dead by the end of it
yeah I feel like we're all like
teaching and just working in theater
in general we're in the industry of being very present
paying a lot of attention
taking mental notes like we're
our brains are going so crazy the whole time
yeah that I find for myself
especially we're talking about like
lessons later in the evening

(06:40):
when you have like long days
I am like I gotta bring that theater energy into my
like last night
I taught a lesson from 8 to 9 after a huge string
and I was like all right
hey how are you
how's the day going you know
you have to like really bring it um
cause that energy as much as like
I agree
it can be when you come home from that rehearsal

(07:01):
you're like I need to go to sleep right now
um
it's really cool to have that like
well
to tap into when you need energy and you have this like
direct line of like oh
I know how to get I know how to get there
for sure yeah
for sure I get so much energy when I teach yeah
like I have no problem teaching seven hours in a row
yeah but after the seven hour

(07:22):
I'm like
it hits you like a brick when you hit that wall
it does yeah
so usually when when
you know cause I only do first
like first lessons okay
with students and then I place them with Emily or
or somebody else oh cool
and so it's always like you
know you're meeting somebody for the first time
you wanna make a good impression and all that
yeah and they're usually like
when they learn that they're like person No. 7 that day

(07:42):
and they're like oh
are you like are you not like super tired
I'm like no no
no this is giving me so much energy yeah
if there's something coming from the student too
that's very real sometimes
you have somebody in front of you
where there's not a lot of feedback
right and they're very quiet
and there's nothing wrong with that
just a different personality
so you have to create your own energy

(08:02):
yes even more yes
right but I love it yeah
I love it so much it's cool
yeah it's cool having a job that works with it
it's always collaborative
yes cause you're getting something from them
and then they're getting something from you
yeah you know
and I think that's the thing that differentiates
a lot of times you know
people who are working with vocal studios
and vocal companies and like

(08:23):
you know theater is such a collaborative art form
you know is what separates those forms from say
like the novelist yeah
or the the
you know basement producer
yeah who kind of works in their own yeah
world and I think
you know make awesome stuff
but it is is you
you sometimes miss out on that
that feeling of oh
of back and forth with a person
and amazing yeah

(08:44):
yeah collaboration is when the best stuff happens
I believe oh yeah
absolutely yeah
so you went to Shenandoah
I did and you did the four year program
it was four years right yes
OK any particular reason why you wanted to study it
instead of just like
moving to New York and just do it or yeah
I I mean

(09:04):
it was never a conversation of like
um if I go to college
what will my major be yeah
it was sort of I wasn't
I'm not good at anything else
um can't relate
so I was just I was just
I kind of my parents and I was
I was very
very fortunate to have very supportive parents
um
but I just liked the idea of again

(09:26):
like being around other artists more and creating a
a system of people that I could carry with me
into that next stage of life
um
cause again you know no
no artist is is a one person island
yeah so
I think the idea of going from high school to New York
kind of not knowing anybody

(09:47):
I was like well
then where's the fun yeah
in that versus this opportunity to
of course you know
grow my artistic skills
and all the things that are well
and good about going to performing arts schools
yeah but just also getting to like meet people and see
see what other people are doing that I can't do
and that you know
cause I think that also helps you realize

(10:07):
what you can do that others can't
and not in like a negative way
you know what I mean
of like being better than anyone else
but I think if you only see yourself working
or you only go see you know
Broadway shows listen to cast albums
all those types of things
you're like shoot
what do I have yeah
when like you
you can see you and your classmates growing

(10:29):
when you're at yeah
a kind of more educational institution yeah
um and yeah
you do you find what makes you special yeah
you know and you and
and
you learn to recognize what makes other people special
and and being able to acknowledge that
I think is a really important part
of working with other people
as well yeah
I love that so much you're gonna make me cry
that's so beautiful wow yeah

(10:50):
what makes them special and what makes you special
and then like lift each other up right
and collaborate in a way where both of your specialties
or all of you if you're collaborating with more than
yeah just one person right yeah
like everybody can give their best to the project
I think that's so wonderful yeah
what I mean that was
I just finished graduate school at NYU
for musical theater writing yes
go and that's that whole program is based off that

(11:13):
you like you come in with an emphasis of
either composing or script writing and lyric writing
it's a two year program
the whole first year is just speed dating
where every week you
you write something with a different person
in your year wow wow
and test it out
and then the second year is write a musical basically
yeah but it is
it's about that you know
you in a

(11:33):
in a program such as that
you also have to be able to go in
and be able to recognize
this is what this person does really well
yeah and I think sometimes it's
it's less about
what can we create that does what I do really well
and does what Emily does really well
but what what's something we can create
that this new artist does really well

(11:53):
yeah
cause you kind of become a new person in a lot of ways
I think if you try to shoehorn your special skills
from each individual into one thing
it can be awkward and clunky
yeah but
you know whatever you're doing in a artistic setting
I think
it is about whatever your team of collaborators are
who is that new singular artistic mind

(12:15):
yeah and what do they do really well
that you couldn't do as an individual
cause I'm sure it's many many things
so this is totally like it is related
I promise but the music is totally different
um there's this like sound
those two Soundcloud rappers
sure that have like come together
and make music together
it's like young gravy and baby no money is like

(12:36):
baby gravy
there you go you know
you know what I'm talking about
you know what I'm talking about
gonna look at Cam do a little point
and like the two of them together just vibes
so like the music is hilarious
like it is so
Coach Bree and I
every time we travel together
we're like just blasting baby gravy

(12:57):
baby gravy yeah
on the on the
in the car anyways
that just collaboration is kind of like
it's not in musical theater
it's Soundcloud rappers
it's everywhere it is
it's amazing it's amazing what they created
like the third separate thing right yeah
well and it's even
you know you look at
you know singers working with producers and songwriters
and it's all it's all that stuff

(13:19):
you know yeah
I think you find it everywhere
for me just theater is where
where I've had most of my artistic energy
yes but I think it's
you know that that's a universal truth yeah
yeah so you
you graduated from Shenandoah
yes in 22
mmm hmm yes
22 and then you moved to New York after that directly
or what did you I do
I do uh
I did a summer um

(13:41):
kind of doing a
a learning program at the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center
which is a developmental musical theater house
cool cool
in Waterford Connecticut
oh um
so I was there for a summer okay
and then moved to New York
and started doing concerts of my music
yeah pretty much a week later
so were you already writing at that point time

(14:01):
I was that so that came yeah
so I was like actor boy from 9 years old to like 21
basically yeah
and then I had always sort of
played a little guitar and mandolin
like frets and strings made sense to my brain cool
um
and then during the pandemic
um I was really bored as I think a lot of us were

(14:22):
and just started you know
writing music
and because theater's always what I've done
it's a it immediately filtered through that
kind of theatrical lens of that
and basically then
I was trying to complete college with
doing as little work for my major as possible
because I started writing
and I was like oh
this is it hold on
like you know
this is because I think as for a lot of people you

(14:47):
you find your way into what you do in a particular way
and I think for theater
and particularly musical theater
that is as an actor yeah
and you know
or with a singer in a choir band orchestra
all these things there's kind of that one in yeah
and then over time the more you live in that world
the more you go oh
there's other things I can do within this industry
yes that maybe serve myself and allow me to

(15:10):
serve the art form better
then that one thing I was able to do at nine years old
cause they weren't asking for commissioned musicals
from nine year olds at the time
yeah yeah yeah yeah
um but yeah
so then and then it was basically from 21 to today
it was it was a pretty quick like oh
this is right yeah
yeah that's what you wanna do

(15:31):
yeah yeah
but you still performed
I had to get my degree um
the degree was a the degree was a requirement
Emily was there for this
this era um
a little bit yeah
like I'll
I'll always sing something at like a concert that I do
yeah mm hmm
um
and I think it's important
when I'm either writing music and lyrics by myself

(15:53):
or working with a composer
who's creating the melodies or whatever for the lyrics
like learning that and singing that too
but it was yeah
so it was kind of a slow trickle out of the performing
OK as I was
uh graduating
doing all the showcases and things that you do
yes yes yes
um
and then sort of by the time I graduated I

(16:14):
I kind of just came to terms with like
oh performing is not the
as fulfilling
artistically and personally as it once was
and yeah you know
I think
I think that was exaggerated
by finding this other thing
yes that I was kind of being for fulfilled in
in a way that I didn't think was possible

(16:35):
cause I kind of thought singing and acting had
was the thing and then I was like
oh there's like 15 more gallons in this bucket that we
that we could have been filling up yeah yeah
I'm so glad to hear you talk about that journey too
because it's similar thing happened to me
whereas I was performing not theater
but you know pop stuff yeah
haha and I enjoyed it

(16:58):
but then
when I started teaching other people how to sing
that's like oh
oh this is more fun than performing
and I always thought I wanted to be a performer
and it's a scary moment it is a very scary moment
it took me a good year to year and a half of like
a whole like identity crisis essentially like
oh my God like no

(17:18):
like if I switch people are gonna think I'm a failure
like I switch because you know
I couldn't make it or whatever yeah
um what are other what are other people gonna think
also both my parents
you know they paid for my college and I was like
I don't wanna let them down and blah blah blah
and they didn't care what I did yeah
they just want me to be happy
yeah I also had very supportive parents
yeah they're
they're wonderful amazing
and uh
so you know

(17:39):
it's a a whole like
oh my God oh my God
oh my God and then Covid hit and I was like
well now I can't perform yeah
so I'm just gonna pour a little bit more into teaching
yeah and that's how Vox tape became a thing
before it was just Laura Chapman music
yeah yeah
haha
and now it's wax tape which is yeah yeah
fills my cup so much more yeah

(18:01):
than being on stage and performing
and it is you know
and it's and it's hard too
cause those are kind of like I said
those are things
you don't get to know until later on in life
yes cause they're not asking for
you know children
voice teachers so yeah
and it is it's a scary thing cause
you know I
I've been performing since I was 9
and there was this idea of like
I don't know if I wanna do that anymore

(18:22):
yeah and kind of being
having that sort of artistic crisis yeah
at the same time we were graduating
so a lot of people in our class were kind of
very focused on showcases
and agents and what
you know
show they were gonna do immediately after school
and all those things and I was kind of in the corner
like

(18:43):
I wrote this song yeah
you guys want to hear it um yeah
and so it was just it was
it was an interesting couple
like year basically for me
senior year was a very interesting yeah
yeah moment of that
cause also just trying to
losing that part of my artistry as a performer
I say losing I gave it up
but that's the word I'm using at the moment
yeah and kind of trying to find where else I land was a

(19:05):
was a tricky
tricky thing cause then I was like
oh man
am I destined to write sad boy
acoustic guitar pop songs
like yeah
is that what it is is it
is it this is it
that is it you know
I started you know
doing all the things
and I'm very happy with where I ended up
that's wonderful it's just so funny
you know like when you're 16
you're like

(19:25):
I know what I want and what's right for me and blah
blah blah
blah blah
and then five years later
it's like hmm
it's like nope
yeah yeah
you evolve as a person right
yeah so okay
so you did the you did your um
degree at Shenandoah
then you did your summer program in Connecticut
yes then you moved to New York and you did some like

(19:47):
not showcases but like
I think you said cabarets
yeah cabarets
basically
there's this thing that's really popular in the musical
theater world to do these concerts of music at venues
uh
and you just kind of they can be whatever you want
so for me they were
these concerts of a bunch of songs that I had written
ah cool
I didn't know that you could do that
with cabarets too oh yeah

(20:09):
you can kind of do
I mean if I'm incorrect people who run the
the beautiful cabarets of New York
don't yell at me but I think you
but you did it so I
I did that and I've seen a lot of people doing that
it was kind of started in like the twenty tens yeah
era of musical theater writing with guys like Drew
Gasperini Ryan Scott Oliver and that whole world and I
by the time I came to New York I had written a

(20:31):
a draft of one full musical that we did at Shenandoah
my senior year um
and then another like 3/4 draft of another musical
I started in Connecticut so I had songs and I had
you know a bunch of friends who I went to college with
who sing really well so I was just like
hey yeah wanna play some tunes and yeah

(20:52):
did that basically the whole year between and then
and then went to NYU yeah
okay so what made you wanna go to NYU and you know
go to school again yeah
um so while I was in Connecticut I met this uh
person named Donna Dinavelli
who is a teacher at my program
and is primarily a filmmaker randomly
but teaches in the NYU musical Theater writing program

(21:15):
um and she was the one who basically
had seen things that I was writing
and was like
I think you should come to this program
and cause it was about collaboration
and it was about
being an artist who wants to create together
and is not a one person sailboat
um
and so basically she was like

(21:36):
you should come to this program
and I was like okay yeah
um just
you know wanted to follow it's
it's been about following that writing heat
as it's been there
cause it's all kind of been rather recent
in the large scale of my life
yeah um
so I was just so flattered that someone was like
no you should
you should do this come to this program and

(21:57):
you know she wrote my letter of rec for me
uh oh
basically to herself yeah
yeah and then yeah
so that was that and that was two years
uh that finished as of two weeks ago
yeah wow congratulations
thank you that's so exciting graduating
was it a master's degree it wasn't
it was a master's in fine arts
oh oh yeah
the MFA yeah yeah

(22:18):
you ever heard of the MFA
I have an MM so oh
a master of music yep
see I couldn't tell you what the difference is
between any of them I don't even know what my degree is
some sort of bachelor but I couldn't tell you what kind
it's all made up it's all made up
yeah it's all yeah
all human language are grunts
people made up yeah
thousands of years ago made up
I love that absolutely

(22:38):
don't that's a whole
that's a whole teaching thing
yeah oh my God
of like vowel sounds and things like that
um a little bit
uh it's
oh shit
what's the word
primal sounds yeah
primal sounds Maddie Tarbox talks about it all the time
we love hahaha
we love um
primal sounds uh
sounds that we've been making for thousands of years

(22:59):
that show up in singing oh
is that like the the cry thing
kind of more like it
it really easily relates to belting and like yelling
like a sound hey
oh yes
yes if you were outside
it'd be like hey
come in here yeah
but OK yeah
following Primal Sounds Primal Sounds
gotta love them yeah
big fan
that'll be our new podcast solely on Primal Sounds

(23:21):
yeah next week
oh my God
imagine I wouldn't even know what to talk about
just like Primal Sounds grunting in a mic
yeah grunting in a mic
yeah ASMR communities will love it
oh my God I love that
that's hilarious so writing
yes you said at NYU you had like um

(23:43):
like two like a focus
like either yeah
composition or lyrics basically
so like the script and the words and okay
and that was primarily for first year
okay and then the second year
once you were kind of put into teams to write musicals
you could do whatever you want
so I was I was asked to do two theses okay
so I wrote two
musicals and for both of those it was like a

(24:06):
I'll write some music or melody work here
and we'll do this and that
and it was a lot less structured okay
okay very cool
and so you've written full on like musicals now
which is yeah so yeah cool
I've technically
now written three full drafts of musicals
so what's next for these musicals
basically you know

(24:27):
it's it's it's been a few weeks of recovering my brain
yeah don't blame you post graduation
and then it's a we're actually
my collaborators and I
are gonna do another concert of music
in New York in September
so that'll be fun and it's you know
I think now it's taking time to look at the pieces
separate of NYU because when you're in grad school

(24:47):
writing these things
you're bringing in work every week
and showing them to faculty or your peers
and yeah you get a lot of noise in your head yes
so I think
taking the time to really sit there
and look at what was created
in those nine months be very proud of it
but also go how much of this is what we want to do
and how much of it is
what feedback we were getting from 80 bajillion voices

(25:10):
throughout the year yes
in an educational setting where it's harder to be like
no yeah yeah
um yeah
and then yeah and then you know
hopefully get to show them to people down the line
but definitely more concerts as well for me
like I love working with all my singer friends
and teaching singers music
and crafting it with them

(25:30):
and all that kind of stuff
so wherever the wind takes me really
I have a I have a short film in pre production
that films in August
so when you say you have a short film and you wrote it
I'm I wrote it and I'm directing it
yeah okay
film is a whole different beast though
it's a whole that's a whole different
that's on our film podcast for fall Today

(25:51):
studios premiering next week
give me two weeks
first we gotta do the primal sounds one yeah two weeks
okay so
is there gonna be like
a doctor in film for you in the future there
I'm so done with school I'm so done
no I was done after my bachelor
I don't know how you went back for a master's like ugh

(26:14):
I love learning don't get me wrong
yeah but I also don't like school
yeah like the system
school is hard
and especially like schools for artistic things
like I I'm very happy with the choices
I made of undergrad and grad school
but they're also like shout out Shenandoah and NYU
they're also kind of stupid
haha cause it's like subjective
yes it is

(26:34):
so it's basically like going and being like
I'm Emily Talman
and I'm starting my first day at Shenandoah
I hope they like my voice yeah
yeah and
you know and it's so it's
you know I
I think it's interesting the way
especially educational institutions that are built
out of universities and
those types of things

(26:55):
cause there's different quotas they have to meet
like I think in a lot of ways
the much uh
more beneficial route could be the things like
duct tape and all those kind of things
that kind of have less oh well
thank you it's almost like I paid you to say that
but I swear I didn't she didn't
and you know
those things that have less of an agenda
I'd say cause it isn't about completely yeah

(27:15):
yeah absolutely
it's just a different environment
yeah and that's why I'm so excited for a Mexico retreat
yes yes
I keep hearing about this Mexico retreat yes
it's just you know
like learning together like collaborate together
but doing it in a not learning environment
like not in a school building
you know but rather yeah
on the beach yeah

(27:37):
on the in my favorite place in the world
you know you have to have fun to do these things
exactly that was
that's the point that's the point
that's something I've said so much
like I think even during undergrad
I would have moments that
you know in hindsight
I probably could have been a bit more
empathetic to situations but
people would be really worked up about the stress of

(27:57):
auditions and classes and all the never Emily Talman
no are you kidding
so laid back and so chill
and I think I would just be like
we're playing dress up as well at the end
or like we're singing songs yeah
it's about having fun like it's not brain surgery
no and like
and you're not gonna make it
and you're not gonna do well
if you're looking at it like brain surgery yeah

(28:18):
cause I mean
talk about adding body tension dear oh yeah
dear whatever it's oh
it's a mental tension translates into physical tension
exactly absolutely
just like absolutely shake that stuff out yeah
shake it loose yeah shake your ass
hahaha
and that's what they teach you in my BFA
and mm went for that moment yeah
it all it all worked out today

(28:40):
yeah what I Learned in grad school is is shake your ass
shake your ass
but I think that goes to like
when you when you mention like
you feel like you picked good places
because you're so right it's it's art
it's gonna be subjective and I feel very fortunate
that we went to an underground
where they were like by the way
it's subjective you know
it wasn't just like
this is how you do it and that's right

(29:01):
and yes you know
they they had there was structure without rigidity
especially when I can be haha
I can love structure and I mean I love education
I love educational institutions so yeah
Emily was basically like the mom of our whole class
I can totally see that it was
we all had like calendars
I would text you daily what classes we had that day

(29:21):
I was like what's happening
I would totally gravitate towards somebody like Emily
because I would never know where to go yeah
I actually still have nightmares about that really
every so often where I'm like
I'm at a school somewhere
it's the first week and I don't know where to go
like I don't know where my next class is
I dream about that frequently
so I need someone like an Emily in my life too

(29:42):
I would text our class group chat
when I would finish the music theory homework
and be like
anyone need any help hahaha
like a crazy person I love it yeah
didn't you need to sleep or have a life
not that year that year I was like
I am I don't know what
what was in the sophomore year energy
I think it's 'cause freshman year of
of an undergraduate musical theater program is like

(30:05):
a very long summer camp like
you're having fun
you're doing all these like intro classes yeah
so it's like you get you you get your first voice
we had this oh
and Sam as well we all had the same first voice teacher
oh cool
yeah we did Giovanna
we love you
and yeah it's a lot of like
what does it mean to sing
yeah
and then everyone's kind of sits there and it's like
yeah like

(30:25):
that's awesome and then the second year is like well
this is what it means and also
this is what singing looks like on paper
yeah yeah
and so you for me
I was like I gotta lock in and be very focused on this
and then junior year is like
it's about to get stressful
but not yet and then senior year is like
oh my God
yeah really yeah
and it you know
I think it's if you're me and handle things like that

(30:46):
OK yeah
let me say um
and you know
I think it's it's uh
there's a lot of pressure nowadays
especially in the yeah
the musical theater actor world
absolutely of like
I gotta
you know
post that I'm in this show or
you know have this experience
or that I booked an agent or that I did all these yeah

(31:07):
there's a lot of pressure yeah
yeah
to be really involved and to be really grateful for it
as well mmm hmm
so I think that there's just
a lot of stress can come from that side of it
versus the like
growing and learning adulting for the first time
like a college can do and it's yes
you know it's hard
too'cause people come in at a bunch of different levels

(31:28):
of like
I had never really had a voice lesson
going into undergrad really
wow
I had very few and we never worked on technique wowsers
yeah I don't know how you could do that
I never would have gotten into any singing school
without any voice training before
cause I had a very small range before voice lessons

(31:49):
really I didn't know head voice existed
I didn't know that that was a thing
so I would just like it could
it could still be a myth we don't know
it could it could still be a myth
has it been confirmed there you go
fair enough not looking at you
well it is and
no it's true
you know I think musical theater especially
has such a unique requirement of the voice
yes that it was just kind of crazy to be in that school

(32:10):
where like people again
what people do that makes them special
and what you do that makes you special
and like you know
this girl's been able to sing anything under the sun
probably since she was like
10 years old and I was like
I can do like funny stuff with my hands
and it was you know
so it is it's just
it's an interesting art form
it's all these different things

(32:31):
and it's yeah
silly and goofy
and it's good to remind ourselves of that
like you said before right
like hey
at the end of the day we're doing this because it's fun
yeah and if you don't enjoy it anymore
maybe you don't have to maybe your heart
has moved on to something else
maybe your heart has moved on
or there's also that thing of like
I think
the moment that your artistry also becomes your job

(32:53):
is an interesting transitional period yes
yeah and I think it's also a testing ground
cause it's also totally okay if it isn't your job
not not having anything to do with talent or skill
but if you hate it when it's your job
yes yes
yes then it's like
cool do something else then and great
do your artistry in the side and you know
go to voice lessons and 100% of those yeah

(33:16):
things and when something becomes a job
the energy changes
because now you put all this pressure on it right
you're like I gotta make money
uh huh yeah
and yeah you know
like
I kind of love that part of it
too'cause it's like an added puzzle piece yeah
yeah to like
how do I have fun while I do this yeah
and not starve to death yeah
but you know for others it
it's the it's the buzzkill

(33:36):
and I think letting it be the buzzkill and
you know finding new things in life yeah
if that's what's needed yeah
totally totally
so I wanna talk a little bit more
if that's cool with you yeah
about how like your your singing and your acting
like coming from a performer perspective first
how that like influenced your your writing for musicals

(34:00):
I mean incredibly so
I think it um again
those things that quote unquote
you know make us special
I think I think that's one of my uh
things I will hope to never lose as a writer
is that stuff I've Learned
cause like I'm reminded of a Steven Schwartz quote
um who wrote wicked and um
he said in this interview one time

(34:21):
you know musical theater should be fun to sing
it should be fun to play and all these kinds of things
so and he wrote wicked and he did write wicked yeah
but it's not fun to sing it's hard to sing
it is so hard to sing when he sings it down the octave
it's really fun to sing yeah yeah exactly
it's been really joyful when he plays and says
and then Alphabet goes up here

(34:42):
yeah yeah yeah
it's really joyful um
could you torture us anymore
thank you very much obviously very fun
like it's wailing right like that is so fun
but it's very hard to sing for sure anyway
so that's something too where like
whenever I'm writing music
and melodies and things like that
that's kind of the first checkmark is like
is it fun for me and it's also like

(35:02):
because I sang for so many years and going to school
I've worked with so many singers
and gotten to see so many different voices
I can write something and be like okay
if this is gonna you know
live on that e for this to artist haha
female voice
what is that you know
like it's not gonna be like
like that all the time

(35:23):
because people should live instead of dying singing it
um and
and you see that in in some new musical material
of people who have not had that experience
working with the human voice
or singing with the human voice
cause you'll see these things that are just
it makes me highly aware of like
what I'm asking people to do yeah

(35:43):
and what I'm asking people to do that is um
hard that requires a unique voice that requires rest
all those kinds of things where it's
you know cause especially
I feel like something we see a lot is like
for a lot of young men in musical theater
the falsetto or head voice is becoming much more common

(36:06):
and so like
when you're doing that you have to go okay
who do I know who has that
because some people do and some people don't
and doesn't matter either way
if you do or don't in the grand scheme of life
but for this specific song
it does so I'll go with that person
yes and so it is
it's a big you know
if it isn't fun for me to sing
and I'll sometimes change the key
so it fits right in my voice

(36:27):
yeah and I'm like okay
if this isn't fun for me to sing
and doesn't feel right to sing
uh huh I'll go back and we have to start over
okay'cause there's nothing worse than giving like
a singer a new song and it's like
you can tell they're having a really bad time
yeah cause you're just like OK
that was on me that's never really on the singer

(36:47):
I I feel um
you know I think
musical theater
should have a certain amount of intuition
to it yeah
even if it's really complicated technically
yeah like when it's all happening
yeah at once it yeah
even a lot of like
sound time stuff you know
is is complicated and hard technically
but like once it's really like
in your bones and it makes sense and you really

(37:10):
oh yeah live with it for a second
it comes very naturally yeah
um I've taught
I actually I've brought this to a lot of students uh
company part of me is everybody there
because everybody's not getting married today yeah
not getting married today
and you know
we go over those chromatics and then once it's Learned
I'm like guess what
say that sentence pardon me

(37:30):
is everybody there because if everybody's there
that's literally the pattern
it mimics the pattern and you did it
and that's exactly what he's going for
so yes it's like
it's chromatics and it's weird and it's funky and
and the accommodations feels strange
but it's really just speech
you know
and I think that that will bring such a human element
like the intuition bring such a human element to it

(37:52):
that people are craving
I won't even get into like AI right now
but like yeah
but people are really craving humanity
at least I am so I think a lot of people are no
I think I think a lot of people are
and I think that's where a lot of music
you know my area of expertise is musical theater
so I can speak more to that
but I think that's where a lot of music in general

(38:14):
is kind of succeeding or failing
yep is
I think
we're in a moment of people really wanting that um
something that feels really human
and feels very real mm hmm
yeah I
I have a hypothesis that we're moving away from some of
the world of like
glitz and glam yeah
in a lot of things
whether that be studio production work or theater

(38:35):
whatever whatever
whatever whatever
and kind of having a
an audience yearning for something a little more
pulled back and a little more yeah
I think right now we're at the peak of it
we're at the peak of the glitz and glam yeah
probably at least
you know I'll say like
like Broadway in particular yes
we're at the peak I won't say theater everywhere
we're at the peak of it but I agree

(38:56):
like we're gonna at some point in the next couple years
I think we're gonna start heading down that slope
yeah I mean
I think it's I mean
if I think if you look at musical theater
especially on the Broadway scene of like
singing in general has also become very different
the past like 10 years
the past 10 years
it's something we talked a lot about in school of like
these shows are hard to sing

(39:16):
and it's yes
and there's a lot of there's a lot of material that
you know
I I feel as though
and again I'm not a vocal teacher
so you guys would probably be able to inform me better
and I find it incredibly interesting
I love telling people facts
so like things
or just things of like there's
there's there's a lot of scores that are written
across the board
that voices can either kind of do or cannot

(39:39):
and there's like rooms to grow and get closer
but on a base level it's like yes
you either can sing in this way that this show requires
or you cannot
I think that there is there is some truth to that
and I'll I'll add the the adverb of comfortably oh
for sure for sure because there are sustainably yeah
and sustainably

(39:59):
because there are a lot of people who are like
they're getting there they're getting up there
and they can technically do it
can they do it each shows a week
can they do it each shows a week
and can where does your voice live
like that's where the voice types
conversation kind of comes in yeah
even my speaking voice right now
it's my speaking voice is up here yeah
so like we can we can tell that
I sing higher things and soprano things
which means that I'm
not gonna be called in for things that are like yeah

(40:21):
which is why I could never do Alpha
but you can that and
but you can do so many other things that I can't
because there's that whole octave hahaha
that's not my octaves go up yeah
and other people's octaves go down
your octaves go down and that's like awesome
and that even is the thing too
cause you're talking about comfortability of like
I feel as though I see a lot in the like TikTok

(40:43):
Instagram reel YouTube singing scene in general
but particularly as it pertains to musical theater
um things that just don't look or sound comfortable
yeah yeah
and it it
you know it
it makes me very nervous for people
and I don't know what's happening in their throats
and I can't give them any sort of advice
but if just you know
it's not fun

(41:04):
I I will be very curious to see when uh
perhaps the the tide of musical theater
writing shifts away from that
and I think there will always be a place for that
yeah as well um
and I say this is someone who's written
you know B naturals for some tenor voices and yeah
ease for some beltress voices
we've all done it we're all guilty of it it's OK

(41:27):
but being cognizant of that
and again if you're writing something
I'll just keep using the B natural above the
the scale for a A
a tenor voice
a lot of those voices are
are bottoming out yes
much higher than you kind of think they do
yes because you have the people who can kind of who
who do it and you can see it like um

(41:48):
on their website and or on their resume of
you know b
what is that like a 4 yeah
yes like b four
yeah
cause it would be right before if you're talking about
oh yes the high yeah
yeah before yeah yeah um
it is that con it's
it's a conversation that has to happen of like okay
yes it's there
uh huh is it there

(42:08):
is it vibrating
yeah is it comfortable
well it goes back into leaning into your strengths
yeah right
and I say this all the time
just because you can doesn't mean you should
I can probably sing Alphabet
I can probably figure it out uh
I have the range for it but should I at least not
you know night after night after night after night

(42:29):
yeah hahaha
yeah it's
but the funny thing is
E's are actually easier for me than like b's and C's
oh yeah once you
once you get into mix yeah
and then it's fine once it enters up there like that
and that's other like
that's a thing again with singing
you learn as a writer is like
you know oh
and the same thing with like

(42:50):
for a lot of kind of Barry tenor voices of like the f
yeah F's are weird and E's are kind of weird
but once you get over that yeah
once you get over that it's a whole other world
and I think it's
it's again these things that like
I urge anyone here who writes music
to be sung for voices that are not your own um
be really cognizant of these things and think about it

(43:11):
cause again it's a collaboration
yeah and I
I I
I cringe when I see writers in any medium
give stuff to singers that are like
do that it is this do that and it's like
oh
I guess if you're yeah
crap and boring um yeah
so okay
this now I have a question for you

(43:33):
as far as like the writing goes
then if you are
like'cause when you're writing musical theater
you're writing for different people
like different roles unless it's like a one man show
but
usually it's probably yeah right
so you're writing for different people
different voices and you have one kind of voice
so do you ever bring in like
if you have like I

(43:54):
I'm kind of like going with this kind of thing
I don't have that kind of voice
let me bring in a singer
friend that has that kind of voice to see
how does it feel do you do that
yes all the time
okay um
and that's another again
perk and bonus that I feel very grateful for
to get to work in this theater industry at
at at a point
and at a level where
I have a lot of incredibly talented friends

(44:14):
that I can call who are willing to like
for coffee or lunch yeah
but I have people um
I have a friend named Kiki Lamu
who we also went to school with
I love Kiki we love you
um
who just has that that kind
of big bombastic voice and the ease are clear
as on a clear day
you can see forever and all those kinds of things

(44:35):
yeah and the amount of times I've like
had her sing something for me in a room
or go in and record on her phone
a voice memo of something
and I'm like okay cool okay
so if I wanna do this and same thing of like
I kind of have a mental database in my head
where I'm like oh
if I need like a yeah
more classically oriented baritone and I wanna

(44:55):
which my voice
my voice is this very thin kind of mix dominant thing
um and very falsetto heavy okay
just I grew up listening to like
Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons
so I think that whole world of placement
just made a lot of sense to my brain yeah
so for anything that needs some hofta to it

(45:16):
yeah it is
it is you know
calling people and collaborating with people and again
cause like they know and they also
I also know that you know
and it is that line between taking that feedback and
making it generally accessible versus like
knowing what is a trick of of
of of one person's voice yes
yes yes
of like OK

(45:37):
Emily Talman can wail up there
wail up there wail up there yeah
like what did I make you sing a G one time I um
I think it could have been a G I wasn't keeping track
it was underground yeah
we didn't look I think we didn't look
I think it was one of those more
so we just didn't look at what it was
and you gave that to me and I was like
but what if I keep going oh my God
so again you write stuff like that

(45:59):
that that that Emily singing and then
and then other people audition for it yeah
that was that was a big lesson for me
that was a big lesson for me was
I worked with Emily Talman
who has this you know
incredible versatile instrument
and then a lot of other very incredible
versatilely instrumented people did it too
but it was just one of those things where again

(46:20):
comfortability yeah
and I was like okay
if we're having singers audition for this part
and Emily's the only one in this key
who like feels joy in their heart doing it yes yes
let's just bring it down yeah
yeah
cause that's just gonna make it more and then you know
whatever and then
I think with people we've cast in future concerts or

(46:41):
or productions of that song
we've gone in and added more opt UPS
or more'cause it's kind of this big belty song
and it's designed to be of like
or raise the key back
I think it I think for the full production we did
we raised it back but yeah
but for like kind of general
like auditions
callbacks all those things
I was like this is not worth
this is not yeah
paying people um
and it is and it helps too that like

(47:02):
I've done eight shows a week as well
very briefly in my 10 year
but I I have
and so I understand too the
the vocal demands of that
and yeah I think you see a lot of these
scores that sound really pretty and are really cool
and then you can find like one person who can do it

(47:23):
and like yes
right for singular talent I
I forget who said that
but one of the old musical theater masters said that
it's like yes
but there's a certain universality
you know I've been listening a lot to music
coming from the West End
like London's version of Broadway
and the vocal demands are just different and are

(47:46):
are it's less about that
and it is about storytelling
it is about acting
so let's about singing with a capital s
yes we talked about singing with a capital s
we're entering the conversation
not all musicals require singing with a capital s
um
in my humble opinion
I'm just a boy um

(48:08):
and it just is you know
interesting
things tend to run a little longer out there um
for various reasons there's a lot of national funding
things over there that are different here
and yeah
well so here's
'cause I'm much more in the pop
contemporary world than in the musical theater world
yeah and so
I see parallels here to the contemporary world where

(48:30):
you know like
you know the power ballads
like 2,000 2,010 like
you know that kind of like era with
with like um
Celine Dion and Whitney Houston and
and then also like Beyonce and Demi Lovato
like just always up here yeah
always like singing with a capital s
right and then insert Billie Eilish
yeah right

(48:51):
and then exactly
once she came around she was like the first like main
main mainstream artist where it's like
that stuff is like not even
not even a one note in a song like yeah
completely eliminated yeah
and now it's much more all over the place
you still have the Demis right
and you still have the Wally songs

(49:12):
but you also have just comfortable
comfortable songs too but now for Demi
obviously like this is her sweet spot
like this is what she does well
yeah yeah
well and
and it's again what makes them special exactly
versus what makes them special exactly
but for a while there I feel like
you know the
the stuff that you heard on the radio
it was just all big big

(49:33):
big big
big big
big big and hard to sing right
you saw that too
in the like 70s and 80s with like the rock tenor
yeah era
like the journey and all that kind of stuff
yes where there just
happened to be a lot of singers at the time
who had that yeah
kind of whale place really locked in
and they were doing a lot of things that made them
not feel anything
yeah what are you talking about
just um

(49:55):
joy general joy
just joy just joins laughter frolicking and it is
and it's again you know
what's also interesting about that is musical theater
historically
has followed the contemporary music of the day
and it used to be you know
Gilbert and Sullivan yeah
uh they were operettas
but still like were the hit tunes of the day
and same with like

(50:15):
The Sound of music and the king and I and Oklahoma
so there were these parallels
and I think that still exists to this day
and I think
we're currently in an era of musical theater mayhaps
where um
we're in our Celine Dion era exactly
um and you're gonna follow to the Billie Eilish era era
maybe like

(50:36):
I think not that you're gonna
like that musical theater is gonna be like
breathy singing yeah
but it's we're getting
it can be that'd be cool as heck
I why not
I'm for it all I mean
I know a lot of people who talk breathy
so why aren't they singing that way
interesting well
see here like
I feel like I've heard this a lot recently
from people in the musical theater world
how like they audition with pop and rock songs

(50:57):
yes they don't even bring musical theater songs anymore
cause that's where Broadway is at right now
yeah it's like
just like sounding contemporary as much as possible
yeah well I
you know
I think that has to do with this interesting idea of
kind of like I was just saying of like
musical theater used to be the popular music of the day
yeah and it is not yeah

(51:18):
and I think it it wants to be again
of course you know
you wanna make art that touches
the most amount of people
and I think
for those who are not musical theater lovers
there can be something kind of cringy about um
musical theater especially more dated musical theater
because there was always more rules to it technically

(51:41):
hypothetically there were more rules of like
you have to have your I want song here and it does this
and you know
I want to be where the people are yeah
um and like
perfect rhyme
was the only thing to do in all musical theater writing
and if you didn't rhyme perfectly
you're dead yeah
not a good writer and
you know and it was still like
you know
and then we will sing with our vibrato and our raised

(52:03):
soft palates and it'll all yeah exactly
OK Mister Snow
come on um
you know I mean like and
and there was a long time where
that was still the expectation
in the you know
90s and 80s like
all that time and I think now
musical theater really wants to catch up yeah yeah
so I think it's

(52:23):
it's about finding that line of what is um
you know
adding contemporary musical vernacular as a singer
into what you're doing
there's also a lot of shows now that are like
really fun concerts and it's like
just sing with a capital s and do your thing
and yes I think of six and you go to six and I'm not
I'm not looking for heartfelt acting

(52:46):
I mean it's there
it's in it
did you but did you know your student Prana King
her sister's in six no
on Broadway she's the one on all the posters
why have we never talked about this
yeah get to know your students Emily
God we talk about so much yeah
oh I've known
I've known Prana for three years
and I didn't know that about her fit till way later
I'm gonna send her an email like what the F

(53:10):
on our new podcast getting to know Emily's students
yeah
more than coming in three weeks coming in three weeks
you know and I
and I and I think
that's something that makes musical theater
as a singing forum really interesting is
you know
you have those shows where it's like 6 and it's like
you are going to sing with a capital s
and you will boots the house down
you will boots the house down
you must boots the house down

(53:31):
you know
like some of my favorite musicals are like Mamma Mia
yeah you know
like where they just like
they just have a great time
you just vibe yeah
they vibe and it's like
and I think it's it's knowing when you're
when you're vibing or when you're doing
you know
something with perhaps a bit more heft to it
yeah I think something that

(53:52):
or a score that did a really interesting job of that
was The Notebook that was on Broadway last year
um does that really well um
shout out the notebook
on our next podcast The Notebook Review Podcast
I need to stop doing that thing
I pushed it too far I pushed it too far
but you know
and it's it's something you have to be mindful of

(54:14):
as a musical theater singer
that I think a lot of pop music singers
it can be a lot more isolated
cause it's kind of song by song
like what is the story of this song
where for musical theater
there's a lot of I mean
of course albums have stories
yeah of course
um but with musical theater
it's like what is the
the singing vernacular of this show in a variety that

(54:35):
in one show can have multiple genres
yeah stylistic tones and
and all those things and it's
it's about knowing I keep saying this
but it's about knowing what makes you special
which is kind of a kinder way
of saying know what you're good at
yeah yeah
because it's also like
if you don't sing with a capital s
cool find the other shows that do the other things

(54:58):
and yeah I truly believe those shows are
are coming up to us
the not singing with a capital s is kind of
like you said again
the Billie Eilish era is coming
yeah the Billie Eilish
the Billie not Irish the Billie Eilish era is coming
and yeah and if you
you know sing with a capital s
do it go beyond and be really well

(55:20):
no and it's like
do it cause like
I think less people do it really well than
we all like to hope um
comfortably again is the keyword in all of this
and at a professional 8 show a week level
yes is also a major
kind of defining line here
yes yes um

(55:41):
and it is cause it
you know the human voice
we've seen friends get vocal injuries or all the things
and it's it's very
have you had a vocal injury
yeah it happens
that's why I'm saying like comfortably
like that's very important
yeah no
it's the most important thing
like it is the most important thing that I think again
musical theater can have a different

(56:04):
uh
amount of importance yeah
then say like
I even look at like Chaparone sings good luck
babe down a whole step down
yeah I think yeah
um she toured whenever she
a lot of keys are changed on her tour
yeah and that's okay cause that's
you know the
the expectation of the medium
musical theater
has a little bit different of a key change situation
and you know

(56:24):
different keys have different emotional sounds
as we all know and are all like
to tell ourselves in music theory classes
um so the the
the comfortability is such a key part of it yeah
and being really honest with yourself and you know
cause like what something that you can do really well
in your voice lesson
with one of these two wonderful people is great

(56:46):
and then how is it gonna be at a 10:00am rehearsal
when press is here yeah
yeah yeah
I think for us at Box Tape Studios
we really try and find the balance between
what are you already good at yeah
and what do we need to continue working on some more
yeah
so that way you can continue expanding your skill set
but the majority of what you're gonna be doing

(57:07):
in your life if you go the professional route
at least that is
you will be hopefully in your comfort zone
yeah more yeah yeah
oh yeah
I mean absolutely
and I think that's the joy of
doing regular voice lessons yeah yeah
you know even
even when you are working professionally at singing
or in one of these you know
theater programs like we did and all that kind of stuff

(57:27):
is like
know what you're really good at
and then enjoy the growing at what you're not yeah
that you know
like that's beautifully said yeah
that's the thing is
is know what you're really good at and be proud of that
yeah and then know where you can grow and
and grow knowing that it might be

(57:47):
what other people do really well who again
can't do what you do really well
it's all yeah
yeah see
what I struggled with growing up was I only listened to
like Beyonce and Christina Aguilera and
you know big
big big voices and high up big voices yeah
and that's just what I always wanted to do
but that's not where my voice naturally sits

(58:10):
my voice naturally sits a lot lower
you can even hear it in my speaking voice
sure right
and so I forced my voice to be something
because that's what I wanted it yeah
to be and it's so hard
especially for younger singers to be like hey
I promise you what you do doesn't matter

(58:30):
it's how you do it yeah
that matters
but that's why I'm so thankful for people like
Billie Eilish who kind of like paved the way for like
hey there's other stuff out here too
and it is just as valuable and it's not less than
you know
you don't have to be belting E's or be naturals
or whatever right
like you it's okay

(58:51):
you can do whatever it's what you
what you do doesn't matter
how you do it is what matters
yeah and I feel like I was just growing up
right in that time where it's just all belty belty
belty belty
belty and that's what I wanted to do
and I forced my voice to do it
and that didn't quite work out
which is why I had a vocal injury at one point right
yeah and so yeah
when I when I finally realized that

(59:11):
that you don't have to belt yeah
like really high all the time
or sing really high all the time in general
like oh
my gosh
like there was so much freedom that came with that
and I started sounding so much better
because I was doing what was right for my voice again
I could do it
I can sing Beyonce and I can sing Christina Aguilera

(59:33):
but just because you can doesn't mean you should yeah
yeah and like
you know it can be fun to do every now and then yeah
oh you can spice it up
do it for of course
you can do whatever you want all the time
that's I mean
you have free will you have free will
yes you watching have free will you watching
haha
um yeah
and it and and
and it's true cause
you know vocal pyro
vocal pyrotechnics are always really exciting

(59:55):
they're so fun they're so fun
to the Great Rift debate oh
not the great Rift
the Great Rift debate riffing in musical theater
but we'll we'll stay on your thing for a sec no
I was done okay
I was just saying I was just saying so like that
that pressure is very real
but it's also true that I think
sometimes in musical theater
people don't want to admit is like
those cast albums have a lot of times
the same amount of vocal processing

(01:00:16):
yes as these pop albums
I mean there have been a few albums that have come out
in music in the musical theater world within the last
you know
three years or so where the melodine is as clear as day
um some sometimes questionably yeah
clearly in case you don't know what Meladine is
it's the same as autotune

(01:00:36):
not the same but similar
it corrects pitch yeah
and other things
it's a software where you can go in and it'll
like on a graph
kind of tell you what note the voice is on
and you just yep
move it around um
and you know
there's compression and there's all these things
and it's you know
I think
it doesn't help the vocal expectation in theater
problem because we want to believe that

(01:01:00):
that is what the singer sounds like all the time
and yeah yeah
not that they sound terrible on it no
but you know they sound human all the time yeah
they sound like a human person and
and again I think in that
in that urge for musical theater to kind of
catch up with the pop world
it is that like oh
we're gonna we're gonna correct it yeah
we'll make it sound really clean

(01:01:20):
yeah um
and I think that's cool and it can sound really cool
but I think especially the young singers who again
you know we try to sing what we listen to all the time
and I think just knowing knowing as well
musical theater is unique
cause you can also sing it differently if you want
you know what I mean like
like I I think of like Ellery Ward

(01:01:42):
mm hmm has been kind of remixing a lot of uh
song time musical songs into like a folk aesthetic
mm hmm and changing the key and the
you know melodies and things like that to
to fit that aesthetic
and you can make that kind of artistry in your own way
wicked will always
in the Broadway production that will outlive humanity

(01:02:03):
um
will always have those requirements
of what they need that to be
that's fine once those rights come out
do your own production
once is an interesting word to use there
oh if they
if the rights are ever released yeah
if um
if they let the youth of America
within the legal requirements

(01:02:23):
that you are able to change material for musical
theater music
explore your own options um
and yeah the great riffing debate
the great riffing debate
are we about to I think get into it
do it I think we should clip that clip that
don't riff clip that
hahaha um
diva me yeah

(01:02:45):
hahaha no
here's here's okay
what do you think about musical theater riffing
what do you think about musical theater riffing
oh I'm not in the musical theater world
so I can't really say okay
is this gonna be Emily and I's yes okay
here we go musical theater riffing
I well
it kind of goes into all riffing okay
it can sound awesome kind of like no matter what
if your you know
if your agility is moving
if riffing in general is not emotionally driven

(01:03:10):
what are you why are you doing it
why like if it is not
if it is not why are you doing it
yeah you know
like I think I think we can break down like even
even to the point of like well
why is this note an 8th note instead of a whole note
like we and on a B instead of a
you know
we can break anything down to like that level of like

(01:03:31):
why like
let's justify it let's make it make sense
but especially with riffing
when you're adding something
that is outside the range of speech roughly
roughly um
why are you doing it I don't think that it
that means that it's unnecessary or
or doesn't make sense

(01:03:51):
or isn't beautiful and doesn't add
but I think you should know
why you're doing it if you're gonna do it
so would you consider that ah
that part like in the see
but it's justified it's a battle cry
it's a battle cry right
or at least Cynthia Rebo's version is a battle cry
so it's justified in in the

(01:04:14):
you know context of the show
I believe
I haven't looked at that sheet music in a second too
I believe there's a riff written in not that exact one
but there is there is
there's a melisma written in yeah
yeah um
so with the with the riff debate yeah
are we talking all riffs ever in musical theater
are we talking about unwritten unwritten okay
that's also a thing yeah

(01:04:35):
yeah cause that's a big fun fact
for those not in the musical theater world
a lot of times
riffs will be written into the sheet music for a score
and it looks really funny
cause it's trying to like
yeah yeah um
because a lot of times
musical theater music is being written by
not the person who's performing it
there's a different expectation from pop music
where a lot of times pop music are uh

(01:04:57):
singers are creating the music
or contemporary music singers
I should say are singing
creating the music with the writer
or writing it themselves
so there's a lot more freedom to kind of do whatever
yeah cause you're making it
so if you wanna go like instead of
or whatever yeah
you can cause who's gonna stop you
yeah and there's a a because the

(01:05:20):
the music is written by separate entities
in some cases many years before you are singing it
there's somewhat of a different expectation and
and a debate yeah
yeah in the world of musical theater as to um
you know when you are servicing a song
servicing a moment or servicing yourself

(01:05:41):
and I don't mean that selfishly I've
I've written songs where you know notes go like uh
uh
and it's like stepped up like that and people have gone
like use that to like walk up and then I'm like yeah
just do that sure

(01:06:02):
like if that's like easier to hit you know what I mean
there's like yeah
there's like vocal technique requirement
things that are like beautiful and I'm like slay yeah
um
but where do you sit I sit in this I think
I think it is a I think it depends on the circumstance
yeah of course
that you are doing the singing in boring answer
but I also here's my thing my OK OK

(01:06:25):
I would say after just saying that
I would say my harsh take that I don't 100% agree with
was that in the in the context of musical theater
when you riff a bunch or do vocal trills
or all those things that are not written in the music
you are commandeering the song from the writer hmm
and you're basically saying oh
it should have been this should have been that

(01:06:46):
I don't think that's purposefully what's happening yeah
yeah but there's especially
cause people do write in riffs and I've
I've written sheet music
where there's a note at the top that's like
start riffing yeah
do whatever you want be free
you know what I mean cool
and like encourage those moments
yeah um
but little and
and you and a lot of times these are situations of like
little licks little trills

(01:07:08):
little melismas at the ends of phrases
getting into phrases
um
and I think or
you know opting up and down and changing
doing melodic variation
um
I think a lot of times that can read for me
as someone who has written musical theater
this has never happened with music

(01:07:29):
like material I've been presenting
but when I'm like watching something and I'm like oh
they're doing all these melodic variations
whatever have you whatever have you
it can feel as though you're take
you're trying to commandeer the song
yeah and take it over from the moment yeah
from what was what it was written to be'cause again

(01:07:50):
like you said
we could have an hour conversation of why this note's a
B and not a C and yeah
not a a flat and all
we could get into that like
decisions are made when songs are written
and purposely decisions are written
so I think sometimes in certain contexts yes
it can read more
like it's more important to show that you can do it

(01:08:11):
uh huh than to be in the
the the moment of the song and the story
exactly it go
it totally goes back to like justifying yeah
justifying justifying in the context of the show
like why are you and also like if you're in a cabaret
do whatever you want yeah
that's you know
I mean like context is awesome
like if you're in your shower
do whatever you're allowed to riff in your shower
that is a Vox Tape Studios official stance

(01:08:33):
yes riff in the shower baby
you're encouraged I don't work for this company
um
but yeah I think
you know and I think again
that comes with
a lot of people now are listening to more pop music
where those freedoms and those thrills
and those melismas are really common
and they're fun to do
they're so fun to do good and not but and

(01:08:55):
um we also don't want to overdo it
because it's like with vibrato too
if there's vibrato everywhere all the time
it like takes away the special thing yeah
if there's a riff everywhere all the time
it takes away each special moments
you know that you created
it just becomes too normalized
uh huh uh huh
um like I'm talking about like within a song

(01:09:16):
yeah right
but like if you're a ripper
like go and do your thing
but yeah like it's always like
it's like you can put too much frosting on a cake
yes you know yeah
and some people love a lot of frosting on a cake
some people love like more like that naked cake
where it's like barely any frosting on it right
and so do what you love but also be mindful of like

(01:09:39):
there's absolutely such a thing as too much singer
yeah yeah
are you being artistic with your choices
are you just trying to show off
yeah exactly and it's like
I would also say like if you're a riffer
do the riff oh my God
I work with singers so many times who like
I can tell are riffer's and really wanna try something

(01:09:59):
yeah and are like not singing it when we're
when we're running it like not
not riffing it when we're running it
and then like oh
let's take a five and like
I'll walk past the restroom and I'll hear them be like
trying something I'm like
we can just try that like it's not like all that
all that goes out the window
when you're creating new musical theater with someone
but I think
you know
especially when you're trying to showcase your talent
in a way to become part of a production

(01:10:21):
or a a something um
on a paid level I think being cautious of that
yeah and know
know what the show is and know yeah
I know
the difference between riffs and changing the melody
I think it's more so my stance
and I don't know if I can give a
definition of the difference
but that thought just came to me yeah
yeah interesting

(01:10:41):
well it's funny
cause 10 years ago when I was in musical theater school
they pretty much told us like
don't change anything
like sing what's written on the piece of paper yeah
unless they are they ask you to change it sure yeah
just sing what's written but also that was 10 years ago
well and that's also like so true for carousel
oh yeah
you know yeah
so true for carousel that's so true for carousel

(01:11:04):
but how true is it for mean girls
you know like
and that mean girls wasn't a thing yet
yeah yeah
but like that's exactly like
I think that it's so like some shows
it's very important to it's really on the page
I mean it's all on the page for a reason
but like what is on the pages there
like when we were talking about sound time
don't don't just do what you think those chromatics are

(01:11:27):
you know it intentionally mimics one
the mimic is maybe isn't the right word
but it intentionally uh
follows the pattern of speech in a very intentional way
to represent this one thing
so if you don't feel like learning it and you go
pardon me is everyone there
because everybody's there
like then you kind of you lose it
yeah and if you
or similarly with that
if you then make it to singing with a capital s

(01:11:50):
yeah and you kind of break that yeah
you're then not uh
using the speech like chromatic yes
yeah movement there to
to the best advantage for yourself or the song yeah
yeah I can get
I can get behind your side of
oh my gosh I've done it
hahaha
we were on the same side at the beginning mom

(01:12:11):
I did it in the end haha
um yeah
I mean you know yeah
it's also subjective and again
like all things in the artistic world exactly
but I think it's important to have an opinion yeah
I think have an opinion and have thoughts
artistically is more important
but also
be willing to listen to other people's opinions
yes and be open to changing your opinion

(01:12:33):
based on new information that has been presented
you know like
cause sometimes I feel like as humans
we're very much like
this is my opinion and no matter what you do
I'm not gonna change it it's like why yeah
that that just isn't fun too no
no cause you're like okay
so I guess we can't talk about anything ever yeah yeah
um yeah
but it is you know
and I think that's another thing that I've Learned

(01:12:55):
through doing the singing
the acting to performing into writing is like
just having an artistic opinion does
like 80% of the work for you
cause it's like even if
and that's like for your own work and for other work
and being able to have those
like I remember we'd be in voice lessons
not together but with our same teacher freshman year

(01:13:17):
and I'd be like you know
I'd sing through something and she'd be like
you know how that feel for you
yada yada yada
and I'd be like I don't know
but I know I didn't like it
and that's where you start
yeah and not in like a self deprecating way
you know what I mean but just like yeah I
I can't quite yet pinpoint
where I'm feeling all the things
but like I didn't
I was not content with the sound of that

(01:13:38):
so we'll keep pressing forward
it it all kind of reminds me of um
in grad school I was in a class uh
we were of course learning how to teach uh
and we were working through things and like
this exercise will help this thing
and this is how this works X y
Z and then at the end of the phrase
my professor said and also
never stop questioning everything

(01:13:59):
because the science keeps changing
and everything keeps changing
and we keep learning new things
yeah and so it's like yeah
these are the facts for now
yeah for now
but never stop questioning it
never stop um
so I it
it goes into this it goes into all of the
you know what's objective
what's subjective yeah
in in
when it comes to being in the industry or something

(01:14:21):
you know like never stop questioning what's going on
but also understand what's stylistically appropriate
like you know
but also question what does that mean
well and I think it's also having
having a deep understanding of what's come before yes
yep
you know whether that be pop music history
musical theater history theater history

(01:14:43):
uh orchestral history whatever your thing is
know the history of it very well yes
I need to do a better job at that what and I think
and I think we all can and I think we all can
I think it to see how much stuff has changed yeah
uh huh cause like you can look at um
like you were saying like the 20 odds

(01:15:04):
20 tens into then Billie Eilish is like
that's what was gonna sell records in that time yeah
were these big voices belting their faces off
well but also there was gatekeeping
now there's no more gatekeeping
because labels are not necessary anymore yeah
you can just that is also very true right
um and then and well
and who thought that would have happened too
like in a bajillion years ago

(01:15:25):
yeah you know
during anytime in American music history
who would have thought yeah
the record company would be no more and yeah
you can just put out your own stuff
just do whatever and then
you could post it on a little thing on your phone
that will share to like
millions and millions of people
basically the world
basically the world except for Apple Music users

(01:15:47):
exactly
haha I'm not an Apple Music user
are you an Apple Music user
no I'm not
I'm not either I love Spotify OK
did they sponsor you yet no
Spotify sponsor us this podcast is brought to you
if I say it is
then maybe they'll just give money to the podcast
I guess so I don't know um
but yeah you know
and and I think
I think knowing where your artistry comes from

(01:16:08):
also allows you to bend it
them more yeah
cause it's
cause you also learn that everything is so moldable
and flapable and you learn the rules to break them
yeah that's a cool word flapable
I think it's either a real world word or I made it up
um we'll roll with either one
I love it listen
add a suffix to anything it's a word yeah

(01:16:30):
there you go that's a rule
that's a rule you know
we used to think electric guitars
we're gonna you we're
we're never gonna be in popular music yeah
and now look at where we are
and if you know that then you also know okay
if I make you know
if I wanna bring the
cigar box guitar back into popularity yeah
I know it has been before

(01:16:50):
and that these can be transitional times
and or if you know
I wanna bring back that Joni Mitchell soprano thing
vocally
I've seen what I I know what it's done before
I know yeah
the history of it
so well that then I'm able to make it my own
yeah um
you know it's again
the thing I say all the time is like

(01:17:12):
how are you an artist more so than your art form
hmm uh huh
okay and it's something that I
I think I I thought a lot about
when we were in undergrad together
when we were
when I was kind of stopping performing was like
I don't wanna be an actor
I wanna be a theater artist
as kind of pretentious as that sounds of like

(01:17:33):
I wanna be a lover of this medium in this art form
yeah and it's like that thing of
you know are you able to go see a
see a musical and look beyond what part you wanna play
or what song you wanna steal and put in your book
or work in voice lessons
and can you isolate your involvement
hypothetical or literal with this piece

(01:17:56):
can you separate that
and just take it in for what it is
yeah and I think a lot of times these younger artists
I say younger I'm 25
but you know these 24 year olds out here
these freaking 24 year olds
um get off my lawn
that's crazy but I think
you know
and I think people of all ages can sometimes struggle
to look outside themselves

(01:18:18):
of their their
their craft and their joy
and you have to love it beyond that yeah
you know you have to love it
if it only makes you enough money for a can of soup
you know cause I think
if it's too much about your involvement in it
I'm a person who questions how much that is

(01:18:39):
love of the thing yeah
or how much that love is genuine
if it feels to me
sometimes more love of self
and love of self involvement
yeah versus like love of the form
which probably also gets into identity of like
who am I without this thing yeah
you know like when it
I think when it starts transitioning into that
like love of self involvement

(01:19:01):
it's this pressure of like
well I have to be a part of this because I am an actor
yes and I have to be because I am
and if I'm not an actor
then I have no idea what's going on
so I am an actor and I have to be doing this
and I am a soprano so I have to sing this song yeah
yeah glitter and Be Gay has to be run today
it has to but that's
that was the issue that I ran into with my vocal injury

(01:19:22):
when I couldn't sing anymore
my entire life it's
I was a singer yeah
and that's like that's my entire identity
yeah
and then it was stripped away for me for a couple weeks
and I was like oh ha no
no fun but then you find other things yeah
outside of that that make you who you are
you're not just one thing
that was that was big for me realizing that yeah

(01:19:44):
working in the sense of like being a person too
like yeah
yeah yeah
no that's huge
yeah I had to learn that
I had to learn that hard too
I talked about me being like
let me say does anyone need help with the homework
like yeah
needing to be needed and being like oh
I can just I can just
you know walk around sometimes yeah
I can just look at some trees
I can chill out yeah
like I I can exist for myself

(01:20:05):
and that's OK and
and that is it and that doesn't mean that
other things don't fulfill me
but it needs to be coming from me yeah
yeah I love that
and and then that also helps fuel your artistry
because now you know yourself better
I know myself
so much more now than I did when I was twenty
to
trying to be what I thought the agents wanted from me
yes even if I was convincing myself

(01:20:27):
that I wasn't doing that sure
doing music outside of that
I was like oh yeah yeah
I was trying to market myself
as someone who can do everything
instead of an actual human being yeah
like someone who can provide and a
such a cool service for you
it's so oh my God
I can do everything yeah
like you know
moving past that
and now I live such a happier existence

(01:20:50):
because I can be like I'm gonna put
I'm gonna go for projects that I care about
and I'm gonna spend other time teaching
and filling my cup up that way
and I'm gonna spend other time reading so much
and now I'm gonna start writing things and oh
I think I'm interested in comedy right
and you know like yeah
it opens up all those avenues of like

(01:21:11):
I know who I am so I don't need to be this one thing
yeah and it's a I mean
it's a daily struggle of like
but I'm supposed to be doing this yeah
but yeah yeah
that's how it goes
and it's also like you just said though
in that time you found other artistic avenues
that you hadn't thought of before
and it's like
again that
separating yourself from the thing
allows you to view all art in such a different way of

(01:21:33):
like
listen to a type of music you don't usually listen to
yeah yeah
listen to Wagner I don't know
I'm gonna sound so pretentious this whole podcast
like we should clip it listen to Wagner
there's your isolated clip version um
oh God um
but yeah you know what I mean
it it is being a
a person is the main descriptor of an artist

(01:21:55):
is a a person who blank well
so okay
this is where this question comes in
yeah cause the show is called from singer to artist yes
which is usually
the question that I like to ask all of our guests
at the end of the of an episode
what to you
is the difference between a singer and an artist
if there is a difference in your opinion

(01:22:19):
I think there is for me okay
and I think the primary difference is kind of
exactly what we've been talking about
where a singer is a person who loves to sing and uh
might be very good at singing
maybe is less so but like
that is something they love to do
and it is a part of who they are as a person

(01:22:40):
for me an artist will take their skill at singing
or their love for singing
and find a way to create something for
the greater public for that hmm
whether that be your friend
your town pub
millions of people on Spotify
a Broadway theater whatever have you

(01:23:01):
you wanna take the thing that you are very good at
and that you love
and apply it to make the world a better place
versus just the singular like
I like to sing and I will sing and
uh huh
make the world a better place
there you go try your best yeah
I think that's a daunting task to
to lay before yourself but yeah

(01:23:21):
the trying yeah
is really good yeah
oh I love that
that's I feel like that's a beautiful way to end this
not that I want to
but I feel like we could keep going on for like
three more hours just keep riffing
but just keep riffing there you go
but this this beautiful
make the world a better place
oh I love that
thank you
I think the
the big theme here was knowing your strengths

(01:23:45):
and collaboration and like yeah
working with each other
to showcase each other's strengths and
and um
honoring the the artists
like the the the
the writers and you know
yeah with the whole riffing debate
well and that
and that and that's part of the collaboration is yes
trust what they did as well
and they'll trust you to add to
to add to it and yeah
even if you're not in the room with them

(01:24:08):
even if they came before you and now you're doing the
you're still collaborating
you're still collaborating
oh that's a good way to look at that
I like that yeah
I like that a lot very cool
thank you so much thank you so much for having me
this is so much fun of course
so can you please
let us all know where we can find your stuff
so we can keep up with your musicals
that you're writing your shows
all the above yeah
I'm on Instagram at Spencer J

(01:24:29):
Lynn spelled L y n n um
on YouTube
I'm Spencer Lynn and I have a lot of stuff on YouTube
if you gen in general search me on YouTube
a lot of my songs come up
either from my account or other accounts
um and if I said something that you enjoyed
or didn't enjoy I love talking about art and all things

(01:24:50):
so reach out to me I love to chat amazing
I'll be sure to include the links too
so they can find you easily
yeah OK cool
YouTube and Instagram thank you so much
thank you so much this was so fun
this was so fun yes
great conversation I hope so
yeah I was so nervous
you were phenomenal I yeah
I did not translate oh

(01:25:10):
thank goodness no
not at all
thank you for coming on thank you so much
and thanks everybody for watching and listening
we'll catch you in the next one bye

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Collaboration In Music: Bringing Out Each Other’s Strengths with Spencer Lynn

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