Why You’re Not Writing (Even When You Want To) with Friedemann Findeisen

The hardest part about songwriting isn’t writing the song… Is setting aside the time and making the conscious choice to write the song. Today’s guest - Friedemann Findeisen from Holistic Songwriting - has some mindset tips to help us prioritize the things we really want to do in life, but never seem to find the time for.

📍Mentioned Resource: Follow Friedemann Findeisen here: https://www.youtube.com/@Holistic-songwriting

Get his book “Getting This Made” here: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Things-Made-Management-Musicians/dp/3982103126

👉 Grab the Songwriting Framework PDF here (currently on sale for just $7!): https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/the-songwriting-framework-pdf

👉 Join our live class called How To Write Songs You’ll Actually Like happening on October 14th: https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/how-to-write-songs-youll-actually-like-live-masterclass

🔔 Subscribe & follow for new episodes every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
if you sit down to write and nothing good comes out
then maybe do something else that you could do instead
to kind of celebrate it maybe not every day
but maybe do you could also do something once a week
hey this week I
I worked on my songwriting
I'm gonna reward myself with that for
for that with a massage
or a nice glass of champagne or whatever it is

(00:21):
you know something that gets you excited about it
if it was hard then find another way to reward yourself
for the time being things will get easier
like with anything that you're learning
in the beginning everything
is hard but the more you do it
the more control you start to have
and the more you understand what you're doing
the more fun it gets as well

(00:47):
Hey Vox Star
and welcome to from singer to artist
I'm Lara Chapman award winning singer and songwriter
turned viral vocal coach and the host of this show
at VoxTape Studios
we help singers from all over the world
level up their voices
by teaching them the three fundamental skills
all singers need technique
awareness and artistry whether you're looking to go pro

(01:08):
or just develop your voice for fun
my team and I are here to help
check the link in the description
to book your first session
or grab some of our other resources
Alrighty are you ready
let's get started
one of the biggest things that creative people
especially struggle with
is getting started and getting out of their own heads
and not judging themselves
or all the time
or being afraid that other people are gonna judge them

(01:30):
mindset is huge
and to talk about mindset for creative people
and especially for songwriters
I have freedom and finance in here with me today
hello hello jazz hands
yes hahaha
how are you doing I'm good Laura
good to see you how are you doing
I'm doing so great
freedom is from holistic songwriting or it's your

(01:53):
your thing that you started right
and you are an incredible
incredible songwriter and coach
I am amazing you are absolutely like
please pat yourself on the shoulder
duh duh duh
you deserve it hahaha
and you have your own artist project too
you've been getting back into that
which is really really exciting

(02:13):
so thank you for taking the time to chat with me here
on this beautiful Friday you're over in Germany
yeah I am yeah
Nikolai and thanks for having me
by the way yes
of course of course
I love that we get to do this across like
different continents
I think technology can be beautiful
also sad sometimes but mostly beautiful hahaha

(02:35):
the world connects the world connects yes
well mindset around songwriting and around
you know taking action and just showing up for yourself
and all of that
this is something that we just quickly had a chat about
like five minutes ago
before we started rolling the cameras
and I was like yeah
this is really a universal thing

(02:55):
that so many people struggle with
not just in writing and creative things
but also like girl
like when was the last time I went to the gym right
like it's
it's so hard to show up for ourselves
do you see that with yourself or your friends
your family your students
do you see it there too yeah
of course everywhere
all the time

(03:17):
and with myself as well like
we have a four year old at home
which makes things really difficult sometimes
and life gets in the way all the freaking time
I think the best we can do
is just do the best we can do
you know I'm
and kind of get off that high horse of
if it's not perfect I'm not gonna do it or I'm no good
so I think if you every day you show up is a win

(03:39):
that's the really the way to look at it
I think
is not to beat yourself up if something doesn't work
because you know
life is difficult and you have to react to your
you know if your child is broke
something or something
and you have to get to the kindergarten real quick
and obviously you have to do that
and if that interferes with your habit
then that didn't mean that

(03:59):
doesn't mean
you're not perfect at whatever you're doing
it just means well
life gets in the way and sometimes things get urgent
um I think it's
it's really important to look at
songwriting is something you take seriously
and like anything any hobby or anything you wanna do
take more seriously you should treat it as a job

(04:20):
so you can fully immerse yourself in it
which I think is crucial for any real learning to occur
um but
you know
it might look different for you than it does for me
and
I think a lot of it is figuring out what works for you
I know a lot of people really believe that
you should write every day
for example and that
that is the way to go doesn't work for me
um not saying that it's bad

(04:41):
I'm just saying for my lifestyle
the way things work out with my family
that would never work um
and I don't really enjoy it either
I I don't like
sitting down to write a song for 15 or 30 minutes
that's just not me I like when I get to work
like I'm a focused person right
I wanna work on something for a couple of hours
like for me
an ideal session is anywhere from four to six hours

(05:02):
so wow
when I wanna work on a project
like when I'm writing my album
I wrote that in two weeks
15 songs in two weeks every day
maybe two or two or three songs
sometimes pick my favorite 15 that became the record
um so I'm
I'm very quick right
I have my process down I know exactly how I write
or kind of what my overall process looks like

(05:22):
so that really helps but I can
I can write something very quickly
and it's getting away from this idea of um
I need to I can only consider myself a writer
if I write every single day
no you make do with what you have
and then you do the best what you can
I think yeah
no I agree
I I don't write every day either haha

(05:44):
I'm also very much a project kind of person
get her done right
have a good chunk of time
get her done rather than hundred percent 15
30 minutes like you said um
cause it takes sometimes a little bit of time
to get into the flow and if I only set aside 30 minutes
it might take me 15 minutes
to get into the right mindset

(06:04):
and then by the time I get started and I'm in the flow
I have to stop because I have to go to my next meeting
or whatever it is right
so yeah
I'm also project kind of girly
you talked about habit right
like you're in your habit
you're doing your thing but something
you know happens
and then you have to get out of that
and do something else cause life gets in the way

(06:24):
uh but I do think a lot of people struggle
just building the habit in the first place
to sit down and write
would you have any recommendations
for building that new habit
uh yeah totally I mean
life situations are gonna be different right

(06:45):
so if you are a student and you have a lot of
lot of time then things will look very different
than if you're a parent
and everything is already too much
and you're already running at 115%
um
to my students
like literally the people who are still studying or
you know in their
in their 20s or something like that um
I usually give the advice of

(07:05):
you know going through the
the stuff that you would read in something like
Atomic Habits
find a clear trigger that triggers your habit
so this is you know
a great trigger for example
is after you've brushed your teeth
or when you're done with your lunch
and you put your stuff in the sink
something definitive like a very precise moment
not lunch or after lunch

(07:27):
because what does after lunch mean exactly
it must be a precise moment
that when you do that action
that precise that specific action
it triggers you oh
now I should be doing this other thing
and then you just stack a second habit on top of that
right so um
that might be after you wake up
it might be after you brush your teeth
something like that so that's your
that's your trigger and that

(07:48):
that helps you kind of get into it
then you have the main habit
and before we can even talk about that
we should kind of talk about planning your habits first
I think it's extremely important that
once you do your thing whatever it is you're doing
let's say it's songwriting
you should be prepared everything should be ready
so that you're not wasting
the first five of your 10 minutes

(08:09):
setting everything up
you shouldn't have to boot your computer and
you know plug in your MIDI keyboard
or whatever it is that you're using or uh
tune your guitar everything should be set up
you just have to go there
grab your guitar and you can start um
and so that requires planning
this is to me
the most important part of any good habit
is planning ahead um

(08:30):
for example
the reason a lot of people's diets don't work
is that they don't plan ahead
for the case that they might be visiting their family
and you know
parents cook elaborate meals for them
and so that's when the diet goes out the window right
it's just a matter of planning
you have to prepare for that
maybe you have to make a call to your parents and say
like you know
I'm on this diet here's what I eat

(08:52):
or I'm gonna bring my own food
don't bother cooking anything for me
for example and the same thing is true for if you
if you wanna write songs right
you have to figure out
how can you make it as pain free
and as easy and simple as possible
so that it doesn't become a chore
you don't wanna get there
and then you first have to boot your computer
and then you have to I don't know
for producers it's authenticating some plug in

(09:14):
or downloading some update
super annoying right
everything just needs to work
and so that requires time
so maybe spend the first week of
instead of starting your habit right away
spend the first week thinking about like
different ways
in which you can make it easier for yourself
um
and also spend this time this is
this is for the people who don't have much time

(09:35):
in their day to day lives um
coming up with ways
in which you can make it almost invisible to yourself
so you're automatically doing these things
whether you want to or not
so um this is small stuff like um
say you know
let's go back to the diet idea right
if you're um if
if you eat too much candy right
then don't buy the candy in the first place

(09:55):
it's gonna make it so much easier not to eat candy
um and the same thing is true
for example for um
I have two guitars that that I'm usually recording with
I have my um electric guitar
and I have a electric five string bass over here
and ever since I bought a
and usually what I would have to do
if I wanted to switch from one to the other
is plug out the cable you know

(10:16):
put the guitar away get the other guitar
plug the cable in change the
whatever programming on on
on the amp so it's a bass amp now and not
no longer a guitar amp
and now I just have a little switch
that I can operate with my foot
I have two cables running from this
like with a splitter
and it just makes everything so much easier
and I had to figure out what that's called
and had to order it and find that stuff and install it

(10:36):
but that took me no time like half an hour in total
maybe but it's just that idea
and I think most people never sit down
to really think it through
and really think about
what can I do to make this easy for myself
so it's not a chore so it's not difficult
but so it's easy
and I think with songwriting
the amazing thing is that it's incredibly fun
so once you start doing it

(10:58):
the writing process itself is the reward in many cases
like this is why I'm not worried about AI
or taking away my business or anything like that
cause I think writing is incredibly fun
it's so satisfying
you get to play god for a little while right
you get to sit down with nothing
you have a blank page in front of you
it's just possibility and within an hour or two

(11:19):
you have something out of nothing
that's the most exciting part
so that would be the third step though
is the reward
some kind of reward that you're getting for it
and
if you sit down to write and nothing good comes out
then maybe do something else that you could do instead
to kind of celebrate it maybe not every day
but maybe do you could also do something once a week

(11:42):
hey this week I
I worked on my songwriting
I'm gonna reward myself with that for
for that with a massage
or a nice glass of champagne or whatever it is
you know something that gets you excited about it
if it was hard then find another way to reward yourself
for the time being things will get easier
like with anything that you're learning
in the beginning everything is hard
but the more you do it

(12:03):
the more control you start to have
and the more you understand what you're doing
the more fun it gets as well
yes the beginning is always hard
and I I talk about this a lot
but I always share the story of
when my high school teacher
for my senior project in high school
I wrote a song with a loop station
and the project was not necessarily about songwriting

(12:26):
like writing a good song
and the process of songwriting and all of that
it was more about using a loop station to create a song
right so the loop station was the
the main thing about it but anyways
I wrote the song with the loop station
and the song was so bad
haha cause that's how you start
you start out bad the song was really bad

(12:47):
and my teacher told me he was like
cause the the guy grading it
he was my music teacher and I love him
I truly he's a wonderful
wonderful human
and he told me Laura
the song that you wrote is really bad
and you have to learn how to write better songs
luckily your project was about using a loop station

(13:08):
so I can still give you a good grade
I got a really good grade
I got like a uh
a minus or something like that
um we have all different grading systems
but whatever thank you
but you know
whatever music things I got
I got a good grade but he said
if I had to grade you based on the song that you wrote

(13:28):
like I
you would barely pass because it's
it's bad and I was like
it's okay I understand what you're saying
and I agree with you it is kind of bad
like literally
the lyrics were I'm a little girl in my own world
I mess around but I still feel the ground
and this is my sound
that was the verse like

(13:48):
oh my god
that's literally how the song started
and then this is my story
I'm not sorry for who I am
that was the chorus that's how it goes
that's how it goes yeah
I have some pretty
that's how you start cringe worthy stories about
yeah for sure
but I think a lot of people
they don't even get started
they're not even you know

(14:09):
building a new habit learning how to build a new habit
because they are so scared of being bad or being judged
or that songwriting is really difficult
do you ever see that with newbies in songwriting
I know the the students that you usually work with
they're already a little more advanced usually

(14:30):
but I don't know if you ever come across people
that have some sort of fear around songwriting
absolutely absolutely
I mean I teach uh
ear training as well at conservatory
one day a week and um
a lot of students there have no clue what they're doing
like they're
uh huh
accomplished writers accomplished producers
but they come in
and they have no idea how to tackle that at all

(14:51):
and they're really hesitant and they hate it
like a lot of people uh
hate ear training they don't hate my class thankfully
but they they
they really struggle with it right
like I talk to them like
we have a good connection
but um
they say like oh
this is so hard why is this so hard
um and I think the
the reason is we don't wanna look like idiots
least of us least of all to uh

(15:12):
to ourselves we wanna be amazing
and excellent at everything that we do
and we have to accept that in the beginning
we're not gonna be those things
I think now for me
my mindset has completely shifted the other way
where I'm really excited when something's not good
because in my mind I
I think I just think more long term about it now

(15:33):
in my mind I'm already like oh
I'm gonna look back at this in a year and be like
damn you've come a long way
and that gets me excited I'm like
yes I may
you know I'm
I'm this is terrible
great because now
every step forward is just gonna make it better
and I I genuinely get very excited about this
I know this sounds really
I don't know sadistic in some way

(15:54):
sadistic in some way
but I genuinely get excited about it
because when you said like
oh you
in the beginning you were terrible
I still feel terrible every time I write a song
technically that never goes away
because my process isn't like
I think a lot of people assume
professional songwriters sit down
and they write a perfect song from a to B of like
from start to finish that's not how it looks people

(16:15):
it really doesn't look like that at all
the way professional songwriters write songs
and how they write stuff that is mind blowingly good
isn't that they everything that they put down is great
no we write a mediocre version
we write something that's okay
if you heard it you would probably say
that's just not a good song
but maybe in my mind I'm like okay
I know it's not great right now

(16:36):
but I can hear where it's going
I can hear it five iterations down the line
and I know it's gonna be awesome
once I get to that point
and then you'll hear it as well
um so for me
my first versions now are just really bad
and I think that's an awesome thing
it it helps me to mess with things
it helps me to throw things around
you know what I see so much
is writers writing on a song for months at a time

(17:00):
because they're always refining
trying to make it better and then
they have trouble
going back to sections that they like
and changing things if the song
even if the song would call for it
it's really hard because we get stuck on our songs like
oh this part I'm
this has to stay the same
I just need a a completely different verse for this
that's really hard to do because that chorus

(17:20):
maybe that you wrote that you're happy with well
is already you already really like it
if it can't change anymore
it's gonna be really hard
to write a fitting verse for it
um your perception of your song
has to change multiple times
as you're writing a song like okay
well I thought it was this
but now I'm starting to understand that
maybe the song should be that

(17:41):
and so I see it as much more of an iterative process
rather than a procedural process
where we move from a to B
now I'm like
excited about the first version
if it's not good because I'm seeing so many points
where I can improve something
I'm like okay
well I have a rough version of a song now
it's super rough it's just a first draft
but I can see here that's gonna be awesome once I do X

(18:03):
y and Z like
you know learn to trust the process
once I can once I do those things
it's gonna be amazing and that's just kind of the
the general vibe I approach these things with
these days I'm so
don't ever think that's gonna go away
I think it's about getting used to that anxiety
and kind of turning it into something positive
turning it into excitement

(18:23):
you know how people say when you go on stage
you're not nervous you're just excited
um I feel the same way about songwriting now
I'm just really excited
about all the mistakes I'm gonna make
and all the things
cause every song is a little bit like a baby right
you have to understand that
it's not just you doing your thing
this is a this thing has a personality
and you kind of have to learn from the song as well

(18:45):
what the song wants if really
if I just give one if I can just
can just give one piece of advice just
if you just remember one thing from this entire thing
it would probably be just listen to what the song wants
that's really the best advice I can ever give you
because the song will have the answer
it's not some songwriting book that
because every song is different

(19:06):
you have to listen to your song
and you have to find out what it wants
and then try to do that
while keeping your integrity as a writer
of course yeah yeah
uh circling back real quick to what you said about
you know not expecting to sit down and write
like after having done it a couple times
like it's just not really how it works
that you just sit down and you write a song
and it's perfect and that's what you hear on the radio

(19:27):
oh no
whoever listens to radio still like whatever
Spotify hahaha uh
but what's the radio Mommy um
hahaha dating myself here
it's fine uh
but it's it's not something that you just blur
blurred out and now it's perfect
I think that misconception comes from

(19:49):
we hear this sometimes when
when singers uh
or artists talk about this one song that had so much uh
success and they're like yeah
like I can't believe I wrote this song in two hours
and then you know
and now it's this big big hit
but we only ever hear about the songwriting process
when it was that but the majority of songs

(20:12):
like 99.999999999% of songs were not written like that
and I'm telling you even the ones that
where they did say they wrote it in two hours
they still went through editing after they wrote it
100%
I write my songs in two hours
that that's probably accurate
most of my songs these days
probably happen in two hours

(20:33):
that's the first draft where I'm like OK
I think I have it sort of
but then
it still goes through so many stages after that
and it still has to be produced and re recorded and
you know tweaks will be made
and things will still change down the line
it will still go through iterations
it might just be
that the first version is better than it used to be
but it still will have to go through those iterations

(20:54):
for sure do you mind sharing
cause now I'm getting really curious
but do you mind sharing
like a 10,000 foot overview of your process
like you go from sitting down to now
the song is how I love it
and what the song needed and what it wanted haha
like the song is done what's
what's the process like for you

(21:15):
yeah totally
um so first of all
I think preparing is really important
I don't ever wanna sit down in front of a blank page
I should have something that I'm excited about
once I go into a session
and that's the same for from writing by myself
or co writing with somebody else
I always wanna have some ideas that I'm excited about
and usually this is in the form of a Google DOC
with lyrical ideas
titles that I'm interested in writing about

(21:37):
or voice notes lots
lots and lots of voice notes
which sometimes just me playing with the guitar
or some other instrument
or sometimes just me on my way to the kindergarten
you know I'm just singing along
oh this would be cool
one two three four
whatever it is yeah
so a lot of a lot of those voice notes um
so once I sit down um I will

(21:59):
I think the first session is really the crucial one
I I call it the
the Helms session and my first deadline
and so this is this is maybe
so this is my process
and it's something that maybe for a complete beginner
might be a little bit out of reach yet
but maybe not I don't know
it just depends on what you do in that session
cause for me the first day

(22:21):
I'm gonna have a production of my song
all the instruments
some of the lyrics most of the melodies
pretty much everything already
kind of so you could listen to it
at the end of the first session
um for a beginner songwriter
I would just suggest
have a full song of you with your instrument
that you could play from start to finish for
you know your phone

(22:41):
you have a voice note of it
it doesn't have to be a full production
but that's that's my goal for myself always
it's my first deadline
at the end of the first writing session
I have to have a full song
not just a chorus not just a cool groove
not just some lyrics
I have to have a full song from start to finish
that I can that the next day
I could come back to and listen to from start to finish
because

(23:01):
I very much believe that songs are diary entries
and we have to capture the moment sometimes
like if you just got dumped by your boyfriend
or something like that you're in that moment right now
and you're feeling feelings
that you're not gonna feel tomorrow
or a week from now so
you have to capture that moment
as accurately as possible

(23:22):
and that's always true
whether it's a big emotion like that or a small emotion
how do you feel today that's
that's often the question I ask myself when I'm writing
like how am I feeling right now
and how can I channel that into a song
how can I express that and
and turn it into something that's interesting to others
not just like hey
here's how I'm feeling today
but here's what that says about humanity or as a whole
or something like that

(23:43):
and so that's the first thing I will try to do
is produce a demo of my track
that I could listen to from start to finish
then the next step is stepping away from your music
very important once you have a song
step away from it for at least 24 hours
if you don't have a deadline
um but as long as you can step away from your song
and don't listen to it
this is something a lot of writers do wrong

(24:05):
is that they keep listening to their own music
they put it on their phone and listen to it on
when they go on walks or commuting to work
I think this is the wrong way to do it
because what you're essentially doing is
you're training your brain
to accept the demo you already have
and your demo is shit so
you know forget about your demo
forget all about it
and then come back to it at a later stage
and be surprised by it like

(24:25):
when I'm sitting down on my second session
I often have completely forgotten
forgotten what my song sounds like
cause I mean
I have a I have a memory like a fly on a booze cruise
but I coming back to
coming back to a song
coming back to a song is exciting for me
cause I'm like
I'm not sure what this is gonna sound like
I wrote this like a week ago
I don't know when I wrote my album

(24:47):
for example I wrote 15 songs
just these Helms sessions
um just the first demos
and then after two weeks I went back to the first one
and I was like
I have no idea what that sounded like anymore
and so I'm coming at it from a fresh angle
and now in my in this session
my main focus is okay
this is how I was feeling at on that day

(25:08):
how can I get the quintessence of that across
so my back then it was very intuitive writing
now I'm thinking more about okay
I'm a little bit more critical now
how can I turn that
into something that people will want to listen to
and then now
this is where technique really comes in
this is where skill becomes really
really useful it's like okay
maybe I could use this chord here instead

(25:29):
to kind of further this emotion a little bit
or this sound over here
or this kind of sound design over there
to shape my message
and make it more clear to the listener
so that they're feeling what I want them to feel
which is what I was feeling ideally
um and so I call this step the triage process
what is what it is about is um
figuring out what's
what doesn't work with your song and fixing that

(25:51):
you
you go to the worst spot in your song and you fix that
usually by rewriting it or sometimes editing it
if it's already really close and it's just like
it's not quite there usually these days
I'll just rewrite it um
instead of saying let's try to fix it
and spend hours manipulating it and moving boxes around
and it doesn't really work

(26:11):
I find the best way to do it really
is to learn from everything you've Learned
from the first draft and see like okay
that didn't work that didn't work
that didn't work but this was cool
and then write another version of it
so if your verse doesn't work
that's your least favorite part
it's the weakest part of the chain
so to say you rewrite just that
and you figure out how to make it better
and if you do that a number of times

(26:32):
always fixing what's the worst thing now
at some point you get to a pretty good song
and so this is usually my second day
by the end of that day what I will also do is um
I will start to make a plan
for what the rest of my process will look like
and so I will
so now I have a song that I'm pretty happy with

(26:54):
now I have to start planning
for how I wanna finish this recording
and so for for me
this is a lot of production stuff usually uh
if you're just writing the song
you might be done already
but if you're also producing it
it would be stuff like
I'm figuring out when I'm gonna record the guitars
how long that's gonna take
um but what's the important part here
if you even if you're not a producer
I think is setting yourself a deadline for this song

(27:15):
you think about like okay
well how much more work is this
okay I think I will be done by that date
and
you wanna pick a date that's not too far in the future
so that you don't lose the excitement about your song
one of my favorite definitions of a hit song is
it's a song that managed to retain the excitement
from the very first writing session up until the very

(27:39):
up until the release of the song
uh huh so that's something I think about a lot
is like how
at what point will I get start to get bored by this
by that point I should be done with my song
if ever I'm writing on a song
and I'm not excited about it anymore
that's a sign that I've worked on it for too long
and I've been working on the wrong things probably
a lot of writers tend to work on details
when they should be focusing

(27:59):
on the big problems of their song
usually the small things take care of themselves
once you start working on the big stuff
and if you can feel like you know
that verse doesn't really lead into my chorus
very nicely
it doesn't really make sense set against that chorus
once you start focusing on that
you fix the verse
usually everything else takes care of itself
so that's that and then um

(28:19):
it goes through the next couple of days
that's the the longest part of the process
is just kind of carrying out my plan
just recording all that stuff and mixing and mastering
and then I have like a
a seven point fifth step
so to say what I call my cheat day
which if I'm just writing one song
would just be an hour if I'm writing an album
it would be the entire day

(28:39):
where I look at all of the songs
and I just look at every song and think about like
what's one or two little things that I could do
to take this from 100% to 115%
like how can I go above expectations
how can I kind of give them more than they expected
and this might be just small stuff
it might just be a sound effect or
but just it's just a mindset of like okay

(29:00):
I'm the song is already done
but
what's a small thing I could do to make it even better
and that's really the whole process
and it just kind of keeps um
going like that for pretty much every song that I write
wow that is incredible
and that is a lot of things that go way over my head

(29:20):
cause like production right
like I can create a demo on my
like on logic I
I know how to record piano
like MIDI and you know
all that stuff I can do that
but Lord knows I am not a producer
I feel like you're bridging the gap between
I'm the writer of the song
and I'm the producer of the song as well

(29:41):
and it's incredible that you can do that
because
I don't think there's a lot of people out there
that can do that
oh it's becoming a bigger thing actually
I think like
songwriter producers like I
cause I I
I I
I know how you feel cause when I started out I
I started production when I was 18 or 19
so I've been writing for a couple of years
just being a songwriter just being in a band

(30:02):
just being a musician and I
I love it for me
production is like another instrument
it's not as complicated as you think
I know
a lot of people are worried about getting into it
because like
oh I don't want to
how complicated is this it really is not complicated
once it's set up it's actually fairly simple
if you can use Photoshop or even something like word
it's not much more complicated than that

(30:23):
it's just like learning an instrument
but it's fun right
learning an instrument is fun
learning how to use a Daw
a digital audio workstation
is really fun so
and it gives me so much more control over my songs
if I have to find a producer
and tell them exactly what I want
it's not that much fun for me
I just I love tweaking and I love that small stuff
yeah so I would never want to give that up

(30:44):
no I
I totally understand that
uh I
I need I need the collaboration hahaha
I need the collaboration there
and also if you're listening or watching this right now
and you're like oh
my god there's so many steps and oh
my god I don't know anything about anything
I don't even know how to write lyrics or melodies yet
it's okay everybody starts somewhere right
like learn the basics of

(31:06):
of songwriting first and then
you know like
build build upon that
build on top of that um
don't get overwhelmed and just like
oh well
I'm never gonna get to this kind of level
that freedom is at
so I'm not even gonna start in the first place
and I think that's a big big
big big
big mistake you don't have to start here
start in the basement and work your way up to

(31:29):
you know freaking
I don't know floor 395
where Friedemann is at
I'm somewhere at like
I don't know floor 86
and I'm working my way up to you too
but it's fine we have some ways to go
do you ever top line only
yeah sometimes

(31:50):
sometimes I will get producers to send me tracks
and I'll have to find a melody for that
yep yeah
uh is there uh
like how does your process look like when you're
when you're doing top lining
and you're not touching the production at all
so I'm a studied musician
so I have a bachelor's degree in
in music so that's certainly helpful
um I have a very technical approach

(32:11):
when it comes to top lining
it's it's really more of a
a technical structure I suppose
I am still very much intuitive when I write a melody
there are no rules in music
that dictate what you should write
and shouldn't write
it's more like music theory will give me an idea
oh well I
you know I've tried the first
third and fifth scale degrees
maybe I could try the second

(32:32):
fourth and sixth now
or maybe I could try this kind of rhythm now
or maybe I could try this or that
so I'm I'm kind of going through a list in my mind like
okay I've kind of done this now
I could come up with the durations of this
but let's let's try something radically different now
and this is usually my approach
so this is the underlying lesson here
I suppose is I don't write one line

(32:52):
and that's it I will usually write at least five
and then settle for the best one
sometimes I'll send all five to the producer
cause I'm like actually like all of these
let them decide
I've done that a bunch of times
and often
they choose a different one than I would have chosen
which is totally fine of course
um but yeah it's
that's that's a really good way to think about it
it's just and
and that's the same with songs as well right

(33:14):
don't don't let my complicated seeming
seemingly complicated process uh
get you down
cause what Lara's saying is completely right
you should just write the best way
to learn how to write songs is to literally just do it
and for the first 20 songs or so
you should just write
you don't even have to listen to people like me
just sit down grab your instrument

(33:35):
and write something that sounds cool
I think that's the best way to learn
because you're building an intuitive knowledge
of how songwriting works
and what you like about your voice
what you like about songs
and you will draw from tens
no dozens of years of experience
because you've been listening to songs your entire life
and you know what a good song sounds like
you might not have the skill
quite yet to write something like that

(33:57):
but you have the intuition already
I I had a really weird experience a couple of years ago
when um
so I do this thing every week
where I give feedback to songs from people
and I uh
started doing this thing where I would ask them first
what they thought was was wrong about their song
and honestly I swear to God

(34:17):
90% of the time
they said exactly the thing that I was gonna say
which tells me that the issue usually isn't with
people don't know what's good or bad
usually the issue is they
maybe they don't know how to get there yet
so maybe the skill is missing
yeah but I think much bigger than that
and this is coming back to mindset
is this idea of I spent so much time making this

(34:40):
and you're telling me I need to change it
I need to make it you know
yes make it again essentially
I basically just wanted you to say
this is good enough you're done
that's not how it works
if you feel that your song isn't done
if you if your intuition is telling you
I think this should be different
listen to that intuition your intuition is right
that's the song telling you what it wants

(35:02):
wow yes
haha
oh you you
yeah no
you just called me out there hahaha
I was like just tell me
tell me that I'm a pretty princess
hahaha no 100%
oh yeah you just want the
the validation or like
I just I
I spent so much time on this
I don't wanna change it
because of all the time that I spent on it

(35:23):
no which is again
why in the first couple of iterations
it's fine if it sounds bad
that's when you fix all the big
bad mistakes so that later on
like the
the song is good right
and then you can start polishing it
and making it sound good
do you ever write just for the sake of
of writing and like you never
like you

(35:43):
you write a song and then you don't take it
through all the editing phases
you just like yeah
that's fine but I'm gonna write a different song
and then like
you never really get back to this other song like
where you have just like
a draft version of it um
well
I do have a lot of songs that I don't end up finishing
because I don't think it's going anywhere
I'm not super excited about what it is
those are usually interestingly enough

(36:04):
those are usually the songs
that I have the biggest plans for
like the if
like maybe a song
I got a song stuck in my head
and like this is gonna be so awesome
once I bring it and you start producing it
and half an hour later I'm like
this is not very good is it
I had too big expectations
I think like
usually my songs they're like
this is okay this
this could be fun
and then it turns into something really cool

(36:24):
those are the songs that really get me excited
if I have too many plans for it
if I already know what it's supposed to sound like
and then I can't get there for some reason
or it just doesn't sound like I wanted it to
those are usually the songs that really fall flat
for me I don't usually write songs where I'm like
I'm excited about this
but let's just write it for the sake of it
and not finish it because for me

(36:45):
the process of finishing is part of the writing process
um I I
I often get this email actually
of people like hey
I have all these ideas on my hard drive
so many started songs I don't know how to finish them
and usually the best advice I can give you is well
start practicing to finish songs
that's also a skill right
it's a part of the process

(37:05):
you've only been practicing
the first part of the process
which is generating ideas
well you need to learn how to break that into
break that out into a full song
and then how to make the individual parts better
and then how to finish it up
so it sounds like a finished product
those are all steps of the process
that's all exciting and and all are cool
and all have their UPS and downs and
and difficult phases and fun phases but um everything

(37:29):
yeah you have to look at the whole process as that
so yeah
to answer your question um
only if I don't like a song will I not finish it
fair fair enough
and it to me
it sounds like when you say
you're not finishing your songs if
but if you know
you get to the point where you don't like them
it's more like the production side
and sure

(37:50):
maybe some lyrics will change and some melodies
but you have all the lyrics for the verses
the choruses you have all the melodies for everything
like
it's not like I got to verse two and then I got stuck
and I never finished it it am I
it's usually not because I get stuck
but because
an idea that I thought was gonna carry the song
just isn't that strong like
I thought like

(38:10):
oh if I just
I could just repeat this forever
and it's gonna be great and then I listen to it
I'm like no
this gets boring really quickly
that's usually what it is honestly
is in my head repetition is awesome
right cause
cause if you sing to yourself
I don't know there's
there's something fun in that
I think like
our brains give us something for that
but once you start hearing it
it just gets boring like

(38:31):
you wanna have some variation in it
and if I can't find an interesting variation
that works in the song um
then usually it's not worth uh
following further
fair enough fair enough
uh I did have a question about your like inspiration
right like you said you've been practicing inspiration

(38:52):
but you've not practiced finishing a song
like actually making a song out of it and finishing it
um what if people struggle with inspiration
any recommendations there
oh yeah absolutely
I think these days not a problem for me anymore
I had a conversation about that with my mom
like 15 years ago

(39:12):
and that's really stuck with me
she's an author and I said like
aren't you ever afraid
that you're gonna run out of ideas
and she said when you're young
you're worried that you're gonna run out
of ideas
when you're old like me you start worrying
that you might not be able
to get all of your great ideas
out into the world before you die
and to me that was a big mindset shift of

(39:34):
oh yeah
our time is limited and
first of all just that our time is limited
we have to do the best with the time that we have
and if you have a great idea
then you should write about it
um
and the second half of that is
I do really believe and I see this all the time
that once you start training your brain

(39:56):
to pick up on things it starts to do that
like our brains are plastic right
they can reshape very quickly
if you start writing
if you start listening to songs specifically like oh
what's the bass doing here
how's this arrangement working
what exactly is happening with the lyrics here
your brain starts to realize like oh
this guy's really interested in songwriting

(40:17):
and is gonna start suggesting ideas to you
that's just how it works it's like your Instagram feed
right it starts depending on what you watch
it recommends like
different things
your brain is an Instagram feed
I love it
that is the most you metaphor I have ever heard
that's amazing that's amazing
that's so good that's so brilliant

(40:40):
that is you're welcome
that's the most large Chapman comparison
that you ever could have made
that's incredible um
but yeah exactly
um once you start paying attention to something
Tony Robbins has this phrase where focus goes
energy flows
and it's totally true you know
if you focus on that if you start recording yourself
if you start listening to your ideas

(41:01):
and you start playing with it
your brain just changes gears
and that takes a while in the beginning
but it gets easier and easier and easier these days
like I
it's completely changed for me now
like I'm in a state now where I just need a word
and I'm like oh
I'm excited let's write something out of that
you know I had a for
for my wife
I'm writing a song called pigtails at the moment
I'm like I have no idea what that's about

(41:22):
but it sounds like a cool song title
and I wanna write that you know
like so it's such a small thing now
I don't even need like
when I was 15 or so or probably older
early 20s I needed a whole plan going in
now I'm just like no
let's figure it out as we go
you know
I'm so much more excited about writing a song like that
um obviously
I have frames and and structures in the back of my head

(41:44):
that I'm always using when I'm writing
and I'm using music theory all the time when I write
but that's now second nature to me
and I can just focus on let's take an idea
and kind of figure out where it wants to go
and explode it into a full song
mm hmm you have all of the experience
from all those years of writing
that you can now that you can now just rely on

(42:04):
on those frameworks and systems and tools
and all that stuff that you've built over the years
so that's uh
that's awesome I do
wanna circle back to your conversation with your mom
uh I think this is so real
like your time is passing either way
and we have a limited time on this planet

(42:26):
and we always push things out
we're like yeah yeah
I'll get to it when I get to it
right and then you never get to it
because you always put something else first
so if songwriting is something that you really wanna do
or um
singing or I don't know
picking up I don't know tennis whatever right
whatever you wanna do

(42:47):
you just have to make it a priority and do it now
because time's gonna pass either way
and eventually it's gonna be too late
but as long as you're still breathing
it's not too late to start to
to start doing that thing
um and
you know you said
or your mom said you know you
I'm worried now like
or when you get older it's more of a matter of

(43:08):
I'm not gonna have enough time
to get all my good ideas out there
um so it's
it's like start
start now while you still have time to do it
and develop good ideas
even if you don't have good ideas right now
you think you don't have good ideas right now
if you start practicing now
you're gonna get better and better
and better and better
and also you get better and better and better ideas too
so basically I guess what I'm trying to say is

(43:30):
start now and stop putting it off
totally true yeah
it's like an investment in the bank
you know it
it kind of the curve goes like this
the sooner you start the sooner you will
you will see returns you know it's
it doesn't go like this it's not
the effort you put in is what you get out of it
no it goes pretty quick
if you keep putting effort into it
uh things take off pretty quickly
we were talking about before we started this recording

(43:52):
um Stephen Covey's book
7 Habits of Highly Effective People
and he has this graph in that book
which I think is so amazing for talking about
precisely this um
where he has this this graph
and it goes x
x is I think
is important not important
a y axis is not urgent urgent
and I do this at you know
when I'm doing workshops in person

(44:14):
and I'll say like okay
which of these areas is most important
which tasks should you focus on every day
and show of hands
and everybody always goes for urgent important
because that seems the obvious one
however Stephen Covey
in his book says no
the actual area you should be focusing on is important
not urgent because where does urgency come from
if you think about it

(44:34):
it usually comes from the outside world
it usually comes from other people
it's when you open up your emails
and somebody needs something from you right now
and you have to put out that fire
that's usually urgency you yourself I
I usually don't have deadlines for
I don't usually set myself deadline deadlines
I'm you know
so that's the part we should be focusing on

(44:57):
is the important but not urgent
the stuff that you could be doing at any time
but you never get to so these are the usually because
because these are usually
the projects
that will make the biggest difference in your life
these are the things that you will lie on your deathbed
thinking about these are things like writing your album
starting you know
starting to write songs or picking up an instrument

(45:17):
or traveling to a cool location
or writing your book or whatever it might be
those are the big projects that you never get to
because they're never urgent
for me everything good in my life
you know
from the YouTube channel and all the success on
you know on with the Kickstarter and all that stuff
all of that came
because I pushed everything else aside and said like

(45:38):
okay you know what
if bills rack up for a while
that's okay
that is just my tax for getting to be creative
that's alright
I'll just not look at that for a little while
because I need to focus on this now
I'm gonna make something awesome
and it's gonna be worth it long term
and it always was so that's a
another piece of advice I wanna send out there
if you are if you have a project

(46:00):
if you already know what you wanna work on
then plan for it and just do it
I think it's really important that we recognize that
those are the projects that will stay with us
long term
and will make the biggest difference in our lives
do what's important not what's urgent
that's definitely a big big
big piece of advice that
or a big piece of this conversation

(46:21):
that I can take away for for myself as well
not just for my songwriting
but like just for life right
just focusing on what what really matters
it's like people saying you know
your relationships matter
so much more than the money you have in your bank
focus on your relationships instead
I feel like it's it's kind of like similar to
to that as well but um

(46:44):
anyways
focus on what's important
not what's urgent
and I think it's so hard to do that because
instant gratification so it sounds like the
the projects that you always
that that gave you the most uh
happiness and the most return in life in general
uh monetary and otherwise

(47:04):
were the projects that were important to you
not necessarily what was urgent
but what was important to you
but you said that those were long
longer term projects and it wasn't instant right
urgent means it needs to happen now
and it's instant and you get the
I can check this off my list gratification
that dopamine hit instantly

(47:27):
and we live in a world right now
where instant gratification is the norm right
like you have a computer in your pocket with your like
just with your phone
and you can learn anything you want at any time
and that's just dopamine that keeps getting released
like all the time

(47:47):
over and over and over again
and that's I think
why we like to do the urgent things first
because it's like okay
I can check this off my list
I can check it off my list
but yeah
you don't you don't have that as much
when you're focusing on the important things
the more longer term things
but the payoff that you get at the end
then is so much bigger

(48:08):
because now you get this big serotonin boost
which is more long term and dopamine fades really
really really quickly
you know it's
it's a it's something you can be satisfied with
you can you can really look
back in that and be proud of something you've made
I think um
and I I think it's
it's always worth putting this out there
you know detoxing from social media

(48:28):
or from email for a while is always a good idea
I have an assistant now
and her main thing is just to check my emails
and only send through the stuff that like
I'll answer batch
answer everything once a week now
but she only sends me through something
if it's really super urgent
that it can't be you know
has has to be answered sooner than that
but other than that I check my emails once a week

(48:49):
and honestly I kind of miss some of those sessions
so sometimes it will take two weeks
and that's fine with me you know
I um
I'm also off of social media for that very reason
because I think it kind of
increases the speed of our lives so much
that we can't slow down
and look at the things that are really important
and I think songwriting to me
is one of those things whenever I sit down to write

(49:11):
it calms me down and I just feel great
it feels amazing now
that always wasn't always the case
actually it always was
you know as a teenager
you think you're the best in the world
so I I always thought I was great at songwriting
thankfully I never had anyone to tell me that I sucked
um even though I totally
totally did back then looking back now
um

(49:31):
I mean awful
just awful if
if I had a realization a couple years ago
when I was listening to my first songs again
and I thought like wow
if that student came to me now
I would I would have
you know at that point
I would have said you should probably not write songs
this probably isn't for you
and that was my big realization of like wow okay
those people are important too

(49:52):
and I should turn I shouldn't turn anybody away
because even somebody who's as bad as that
as bad as I was back then
could turn into someone
who's really good at what they're doing
if they just stick with it and they want it enough
and I wanted it I really wanted to write great songs
like I wanted to be as good as my idols were
and in my eyes I've gotten there
I'm not my idols I've become my own best self

(50:13):
which is even
that was another lesson I had to learn
but I'm super happy where
where I am with my songwriting now
because I always kept pushing
I always wanted more I always wanted to get better
and I have enjoyed every step of the process
but I also was always looking forward to the next step
and kind of improving and
and and
and all that
yeah and you do still get that dopamine hit
like that that satisfaction right

(50:36):
when you did something even though it's like
just a small step of the overall thing
that's important to you right
like if that is releasing your first song
or your first album or your tenth album whatever right
like you took a couple hours like
out of your day to work towards that
that still feels good and people like to feel good

(50:57):
and sometimes you don't feel good
sometimes you have a day where you wrote on a track
and it doesn't feel good and why is that
because songs can be difficult
it can be difficult to wrangle a song into shape
sometimes I have that
I have those sessions all the time
um it's still important
because sometimes
you have to just work through a couple of steps

(51:19):
where it's not fun so it can become fun again
for me the most fun I'm having is I I
I really like uh
coming up with song ideas
I really like iterating on those song ideas
then there's a whole stretch of like
just finishing stuff off
that's the least creative that I
that's the part I dislike the most
and then I really like finishing songs off
like when it's just already great

(51:40):
and I can just like
oh just let's
let's add this thing here to make it even better
so there is definitely a phase in every
in every single song that I write that is just tough
tough work
and I come out of those sessions and they're not great
but I also know it will be worth it
to just continue working on that
I I think that's also the thing that sets us apart from
from from others who

(52:01):
so there's this have you ever read um
the dip by Seth Godin by any chance
no I have not
because it's it's a marketing book
I thought maybe you'd know it
so he has this curve he calls it the dip and
and he's talking about um
so he's talking about a couple of different things
and how it could relate
but also it could relate to learning
so the the curve looks like this
it goes up a little bit in the beginning

(52:23):
right because when you start learning something
you make progress rather quickly
oh yes yes yes
no I know this
yes yes
sorry go ahead
back down basically to zero
stays there for a bit
and then it shoots straight up at the end
and then like
exponentially goes up at the end
and that's a that's a great way to think about it
I think every project will have that curve

(52:44):
pretty much every project I've been involved with
has always kind of had that curve
you start off everything is going great
and then you hit that dip
the difference now that I have
looking at it is I trust the process
I know it will if I just keep working through that dip
things will get better at the end
and I think that's the thing that sets me apart
from a lot of other writers
who maybe get discouraged

(53:04):
because they think their song is now crap
and they can't it's
it's just not good enough
um I think I am
I get excited now almost
about the fact that the dip is there
because it means well
a lot of other people are gonna give up at that point
but I'm pushing through and that's what
that's who I am I think the more you do something
the more you can start to identify with it

(53:26):
and it gives you a positive boost of like
I did that I did the hard thing
and I came out better for it
you know yeah
so um yeah
I just wanted to say that if
if somebody's listening to this and they're like
but songwriting
sometimes it's really hard and it's not fun
and I don't get those dopamine boosts
that's totally normal totally
100% normal um
it's just sometimes it's a matter of like okay

(53:47):
just have to push through this bit
so it can be fun again yes
no definitely
oh so much wisdom here
I feel like I could keep going on and on and on and on
forever I'm learning so much from you
thank you so much for the man
uh and is there
is there anything else that you would like to get
off your chest any piece of advice anything

(54:08):
I mean
not that we're lacking advice here in this episode
I think that's pretty much it
I think I've said the most important things
um yeah
go for it go for it
just do it in the beginning
honestly just do it
it's probably the best piece of advice
just do it listen to what the song wants
if you do that you're gonna be fine for at least
you know the first year or so

(54:29):
listen to Nike and listen to your song
just do it ta da
we love it hahaha oh
I had another analogy that
but you kept talking so I wasn't gonna interrupt you
but you said like investment right
I just need to get this off my chest
then we can stop sorry
but hahaha
it's like it's like investing in the stock market right
it always goes up into the right
but sometimes it it goes down

(54:50):
but it always comes back up
and the earlier you invest
the more you get get out of it at the end
I know nothing about the stock market
but there you go there's my stock market advice
invest in yourself early and it builds on top of that
anyways um
you have an awesome book
that's all about getting over your own mindset blocks

(55:11):
and getting into the creative phase of uh
writing and you know
journaling to a certain point as well
can you talk tell us a little bit more about this book
cause I wanna talk about it real quick
yeah so it's um
half journal um
with like
boxes to tick off and to kind of track how you're doing
um half
um I guess

(55:32):
non fiction book like
if there's full chapters just explaining concepts um
and it's about how to build habits
how to finish projects it's basically a book about
the book is called Getting Things Made
and that's really what it's about
it's a time management book for creative people
so
because I think we really live in our own world

(55:53):
in a way where we maybe don't have deadlines from work
or something like that or
we have to set our own deadlines for our own projects
and and that can be really challenging for
for humans for us
because that's not how we're wired
unless somebody tells us what we're supposed to do
we can kind of you know
veer off the road very quickly
and so
it can be very useful to have a couple of guidelines

(56:16):
a couple of rules that you set yourself
to bring a little bit of shape to your day
so that you're getting the most out of this
out of this um
and uh
be your best self when you're writing music
and when you're creating art
because
that's the thing that you're sharing with other people
that's
yeah what I think what people will remember you for
and that's the gift we bring to the world
and we wanna make sure that we are at our very best

(56:38):
when we write those things
yeah yeah
I'm super excited about this book
I you just told me about it
so I literally already ordered it on Amazon
and got the confirmation it's on its way
so I'm very excited to um
to get my hands on it and build these good habits
and make sure I show up for myself
and my songs that I wanna write
uh cause not lacking ideas

(56:59):
lacking action sometimes cause
you know as coaches
we sometimes give advice and we're like hmm
I should really follow my own advice sometimes
I don't know maybe you don't ever feel that way
I do feel that way sometimes
totally yeah
totally do I had it OK
this um
let just just let me tell that one story
I have this this rule
the Ruben Rule um
which is a 5 to 1 ratio and the idea is

(57:20):
and this kind of goes back to
what we're talking about earlier
when you
when you're struggling writing something really good
instead of trying to make it
instead of trying to write the perfect thing
you write five things
and you pick the best one from that
so that's the 5 to 1 ratio
so whenever you get stuck
instead of saying oh
but I need to get this right
you know
and really putting the stress all over yourself said

(57:41):
you know go lateral
just write five things very quickly
in the span
that it would have taken you to write one thing
you write five things like
you know fifth
10 minutes or so per thing or less um
and it usually breaks the
the writer's block or the the
the difficulties very very
very quickly because we're all good at telling
which of those five is the
I think is the best um

(58:01):
and so yeah I I
I had a had a song where I had a great chorus
I so I finally finished my homes
I had a full song Second Day
I come back and I'm like the chorus is amazing
but these verses are just not good enough
and honestly for two months I was working on that song
cause I believed in that chorus so much
trying to fix that verse trying to rewrite it
and nothing I wrote was ever good enough
and so I I mean
I threw the verse away and wrote something new

(58:23):
and it just I couldn't get it right
and then I said like you know
why don't I just listen to my own advice
and do the Ruben Rule and so I took half an hour
set myself a timer half an hour
five versions so just copy pasted my courses
and filled the gaps with verses extremely quickly
literally guitar okay
this is an idea let's do that base
okay and here's what the drums would sound like

(58:43):
and do that five times and within half an hour
I had my fix so that was a wow
huge moment for me I haven't forgotten it since
thankfully
but I'm sure there's a good bunch of other stuff
yeah yeah yeah yeah
taking our own advice Yay
hahaha for the win
so it sounds like our advice
like the advice that we give is good
we just need to follow it

(59:03):
but that's that's hilarious
thank you so much for sharing
and um
the book I will link to it in the description as well
if people want to order it
they can get it there um
but also just a little foreshadowing
uh we are launching a songwriting program
it's a little cohort and it's launching on October 14th
you'll hear more about it and uh

(59:24):
if you sign up for it
you're actually gonna get this book
written by Frieda Manfendyson
from Holistic Songwriting
our beautiful guest here uh
as a bonus included so stay tuned for that
doors open on October 14th
we're there almost
not quite but almost
we're gonna get there anyways
thank you Frida Mun
I appreciate you you're such a wonderful friend

(59:45):
a wonderful human a wonderful songwriter
wonderful person I appreciate you
and let's go write some good songs
let's do it let's do it
thanks Laura
Rock on have a good one
thanks everybody
for tuning in we'll see you next time
bye bye