Writing Songs For Your Voice: What Makes A Song Great With Logan Grimé

What actually makes a great song?

In this episode of From Singer to Artist, I caught up with Logan Grimé—aka @vib3.machine—to talk all things songwriting: where to start, what makes a song really great and how to write songs for your own voice.

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by the writing process, this conversation is here to help you simplify and actually start—without judgment, pressure, or perfection.

 

📍Mentioned Resource:

IG and TikTok of Logan @Vib3.machine Free song writing checklist : https://www.vib3machine.com/toolkit Visualizing Melodies: https://www.hooktheory.com/

👉 Want to make practicing easier? Grab our FREE warm up track here: https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/free-warm-up-track

👉 Not sure what your voice needs to improve? Get a vocal evaluation from our professional coaches here: https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/vocal-evaluation

👉 Book a 1:1 session with Coach Lara: https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/trial-lesson

🔔 Subscribe & follow for new episodes every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
this is a new concept I came up with recently

(00:02):
it's that there are exciting ideas
and then there are good ideas
hmm and often times people will say I have a great idea
it's like no
you don't have a good idea
you have an exciting idea
oh my God way to call me out over here okay
I got so many exciting ideas I have
you wouldn't believe how many exciting ideas I have
but I but the

(00:22):
but if I go and I test the exciting idea
and then I say that was really great
now it's a
now it's a good or great idea because I did it
an exciting idea is just a feeling
but it actually a good or great idea
is something that you have wisdom by
through the doing of it

(00:45):
hey Vox star and welcome to from singer to artist
I'm Lara Chapman award winning singer and songwriter
turned viral vocal coach and the host of this show
at Voxtape Studios
we help singers from all over the world
level up their voices
by teaching them the 3 fundamental skills
all singers need technique
awareness and artistry whether you're looking to go pro

(01:06):
or just develop your voice for fun
my team and I are here to help
check the link in the description
to book your first session
or grab some of our other resources
Alrighty are you ready
let's get started
today we are in LA with our wonderful guest
hello Logan Grimey hello
hello all of the cameras
all of the cameras hello
hello hello
hello hahaha

(01:27):
thank you so much for being here
how are you I'm very
I'm very good I'm very excited to be here and talk
I can talk about music all day long
I know I mean
you do talk about music all day long
that's that's your gig
that's what you do and from how I like how I met you
how I got introduced to you
social media songwriting
mostly
like AI and songwriting is kind of like your jam

(01:49):
from what I'm seeing on social media
well I do love AI and I do love music
and I think there's an interesting future for that
and I also love human creativity actually
I love human creativity above all else okay
so I just think amplifying that is pretty sweet
yeah and I love how you
you love human creativity and AI

(02:10):
because I feel like a lot of times people are like
well AI takes the creativity out of it
cause now we have AI writing songs for us
I would I want AI to do my laundry for me
not write songs for me
so you look at it completely differently
it sounds like yes
well I think with anything
it's a matter of I don't want AI to create uh

(02:31):
an AI donut or or like fake donut eating experience
I enjoy that experience
I enjoy making music I don't need AI to take that away
but you know I think um
humans are um
the one thing that can't be scaled
at this point in time right
right now we're sitting here actually
this conversation is being scaled

(02:53):
a lot of people are seeing it yes
because because of using technology to do that right
and this is the same way that
recording
a song will allow your performance to be scaled
so that many people can experience it
and so I believe that
those who put their voice out into the world
may that be speaking or singing or whatever it is
AI will just be an opportunity to take that
and let more people hear it in different ways and

(03:14):
and allow it to be expanded much more uh
deeply with individuals
because you can only be in one place at one time
and so yes
I think yeah
that's sort of my general like thought around that
I love it so
you're looking at it as a tool to scale
whatever it is you're doing
and reach more people
recorded music has only existed for like 140 years
that's a very new thing yeah
that's brand new

(03:34):
so people have had it exist their entire lifetime
but in the grand scheme of songs
which have existed for thousands of years
a recording of a song is a very small part of it
yeah and so I just think that the
a human's voice is the most unique thing that you have
um that if
even if I close my eyes right now
and someone was to sing
I could recognize who that was without even seeing them

(03:56):
so that's the goal haha
yeah and so the
the uniqueness of an individual's voice
I think is the most valuable thing that you have
may it be your ideas the tonality of your voice
your performance the emotion you bring to it
is the most valuable thing that you have um
it's the most unique
instrument that you can possibly have
and so I think taking that
if I'm like if I'm in a cafe and I hear uh
the week the weekend or something

(04:17):
I would know who it was singing before
I would know what the song was
yes right
so I would go oh
it sounds like it's a new song from him
and I'd be curious
just for the fact that it was his individual voice
I may think the song sucks
but I would know it was him
and so that's a that's
it's like a it's like a thumbprint or fingerprint
finding your unique voice
and putting that out there into the world
allows people to recognize your voice

(04:39):
when they hear it right
transcends everything and so AI obviously can take that
and I don't know what happens with that
I just think having
putting your unique voice out there into the world
is the most um
is the most unique thing you can do
you sure you're not a vocal coach
haha you sure
cause like
that's what I'm trying to preach all the time
be like stop worrying

(04:59):
so much about whether that note was perfectly on pitch
or you know
whether that note is a C or a d
like it doesn't matter what the notes are
that you're singing
it matters how you're singing those notes
and so you know
the the expression of the note is
is what matters how you do that creative
like creatively and also authentically

(05:19):
so yeah
that's kind of what you were what you were saying yeah
I mean
if you even think of like something like auto tune
people are have lots of feelings around that
that as a tool right yeah
but if you simply look at an any instrument
look at a guitar and look at the tuning pegs on it
right the tuning pegs are taking the notes or it's
they're taking the strings
and they're organizing what the notes are
so that when you play on it

(05:39):
it sounds delightful to the human ear yeah
no one's arguing with that yeah
so it's a tool like
autotune will basically do that for the human voice
because the human voice is an instrument
it's the unique instrument that you have
it's the most unique instrument that exists
and it allows it to organize what that is
there are millions of people that have had access
to be able to create music
that was more pleasing to people's ears

(05:59):
because of that as a tool
because so it's someone that would be like
I don't like that it's like well
you're telling you're you're trying to say that
all the people that are now
more able to express themselves
and removing the pitch element of it
and allow for the emotion just to come through
you think that that is not a good idea
it's more people are singing because
more people are expressing themselves because of that
and so

(06:19):
I think it's interesting when it comes to singing
because it's like
it's turned into a sport in many ways
it's turned into a thing where it's like
it's competitive or it's this versus that
or this is the winner and I'm like
is that the reason why we sing is to have it be sports
like is that what this is like
this is again
this is like music industry or not music industry
but just musicianship singing

(06:40):
there's an entire sports element to it
and even in the songwriting world
there's many like athletes that are songwriters
because it's so competitive
but it really works different from I think
the thing that really resonates with people
which is the emotion that comes through
so ooh
I never really looked at it from that angle
but that's a really good point that you're
that you're bringing up and yeah

(07:01):
autotune is like a whole story
where people are like if you use autotune
you can't sing you're a cheater
it has nothing to do with that
it's just a tool that we use just like any other tool
and pitch isn't everything
it's a very small aspect
and that isn't when you look at it as a tool right
if we look at recorded songs as a tool
to spread our thing that we created
or to spread our voice or to spread our likeness

(07:22):
if you will that that will also be a tool
but it will only be able to scale
the thing that is worth scaling
and the thing that's worth scaling is you right
that's the only thing that is worth letting more people
cause people might be writing songs for
let's go back to the weekend
they might be writing songs for this individual
and he could allow it not allow it
I don't know what the future looks like however

(07:42):
there are many many artists that that uh
that individuals love
because of their way of performing something
it's not about the songwriting
because they didn't write the songs necessarily yeah
a lot of people don't even care about that yeah
you know there's there are songwriters
there are performers there are artists
there are producers
there's so many different individuals
that allow for one person's voice to shine
and it may be that in the future

(08:05):
we are allowed to write songs
more people can write songs
or
produce songs and then hear it in the voice of whoever
and people fall in love with that version of it yeah
so it's like the all the different elements are again
it's like it's the sports thing
it's that
it's like people see things as so black and white
and that like a like
I don't know
like certain things like American Idol where I'm like

(08:25):
this is this is
it removes it removes the thing that we care about yeah
yeah absolutely
and you know I
I have to say I'm a little bit guilty
sometimes of comparing singing to sports
in the sense of
it's muscles that you need to train
just like any other muscle in your body
if you wanna get better at it
you have to train it just like an athlete
like a football player goes to the gym

(08:47):
and works out to get better at playing football right
so in that sense I compare singing to sports
because you train something
it's muscles that we're training
but it's not just the muscles right
that's a part of it it's also the expression of it
but in order to express ourselves
the way we want to express ourselves
we need to have the muscle part figured out

(09:09):
so that we can do what we wanna do vocally
so that our vocal skills are not holding ourselves back
do you know what I'm trying to say
yes I do
and I was gonna ask
is Pilates a good thing to be able to do
to strengthen that muscle
Pilates hahaha
I don't know maybe
I love doing it every morning
maybe not every morning
I'm hating myself if I say every morning
but maybe like two to three times a week
I'm pulling up YouTube move with Nicole

(09:31):
and she does like
yoga and Pilates and bar and all that stuff
and I'm just at home
in my little office with a yoga mat
rolled out downward dog and all that stuff
and it helps with my singing in the sense of like
I'm moving my body I'm more in tune with my entire body
not just with my throat'cause
you know that's where you're singing from
from your throat but if you have it

(09:51):
if you make it a whole body experience
it's a lot easier to sing
so movement in general is always something I support
got it yeah
there was a vocal coach that I talked to
a couple years ago and that's what he said as far as
like that's what he recommended
I was like oh
that's interesting and there's like a yoga Pilates
I'm like I'm thinking about this
yeah I can strengthen that yeah
that muscle yeah
and there's also other voice teachers

(10:12):
that I've talked to out there
who are like
yoga is the worst thing you can do for your voice
interesting and then
there's other voice teachers out there that I know
that are like
I specifically combine yoga with vocal coaching
so they're like
I don't know how they do it
but they combine yoga and vocal coaching
and I'm like okay
hold on that's two completely different opinions
and at the end of the day
it's an opinion and what works for you

(10:33):
might be different than what works for me
so at the end of the day
you just gotta do what works for you yeah
that's interesting I agree
yeah you gotta do it works
I always like to say like
you gotta do whatever it is that you enjoy doing
but you'll consistently do
if you'll consistently do it
that's way better than not doing anything
that's just an idea
I like to look at ideas as being there are um

(10:55):
this is a this is a new concept I came up with recently
it's that there are exciting ideas
and then there are good ideas hmm
and often times people will say
I have a great idea it's like no
you don't have a good idea
you have an exciting idea
oh my God way to call me out over here okay
I got so many exciting ideas I have
you wouldn't believe how many exciting ideas I have

(11:16):
but I but the
but if I go and I test the exciting idea and then I say
that was really great now it's a
now it's a good or great idea because I did it
an exciting idea is just a feeling
but actually a good or great
idea is something that you have wisdom by
through the doing of it so
and oh my God Claudia's is one of those things I okay

(11:37):
I'm gonna steal that from you or take it or borrow it
whatever we want to call it
so it's not so negative but wow
an exciting idea and a good idea
they're not the same thing
a good idea can be formed through
not even an exciting idea
it can just be formed through experience
yeah right
you didn't necessarily have an idea
and then you did it and then you Learned from it right

(11:57):
um but a um
and I think another thing is weird
this is a little off but like
a good idea or a great idea
is something that you
most likely won't even get credit for
in any type of way once it's happened
cause more people will just see it as reality
they'll just be like that's just what's happening
you could say that um
hey it was a
it was a good
idea for you to come on and do this podcast

(12:19):
because of X y and Z right
but people always just meet you where you're at
they don't go that was a great idea
that you started making videos about
teaching people this stuff
they just go you're a person that just does that
yes and so it makes me
I don't know
I'm just thinking about how that relates to singing and
um yeah
it's like not someone's gonna go and say Benson boon
like it's such a great idea

(12:39):
that you spent all that time learning how to do da da
da da yeah
yeah yeah no
now he just does it he just does it
it's reality yeah
it's great idea that you like
figure how to do those flips and then
you know start singing right afterwards yeah
it just people don't people like what you
what you did
they don't care about what you're gonna do because
probably because it's doesn't
uh'cause it's not real
it's only real once it's been anyway

(13:00):
sorry I could go off on these random tantrums no
but this is so cool I love it
I love it well
let's go back cause you kind of started talking about
well that's just what I like
people now know me as a coach online
that's just what I do so
let's talk about how you actually got into all of this
like how you got into music
how you got into talking about songwriting
and music in general on social media
like how did this all get started

(13:21):
um I grew up in a family where I had
instruments all around my home
because my dad was a songwriter and singer
base player guitar player
piano player um
and so he he started writing songs and producing songs
in his late 20s I think he formed a band
this is back in the early 80s
and so they were rocking out playing my

(13:42):
they invested a bunch of money
and built a studio in my grandparents garage
and so they would just be practicing every single day
and playing live shows and selling live shows out
recording their songs and this is all the tape
and my dad's it's funny
like when I talk to different band members now
that work with my dad they're like yeah
your dad didn't have the strongest voice

(14:03):
but my dad's thing was he could
he said I could sing my own songs
that's what he always would say
which I actually like believe that heavily
like which we can talk about that after the fact
anyways I just grew up with my dad having done all that
but he was not doing that when I was a little kid
so he had sort of stopped OK
and he wasn't really doing music
but we had all of the gear at home and my yeah

(14:25):
so my dad
he I think he stopped doing music for multiple reasons
my entire family sort of was like your dad
like dad is going to be a rock star
that's the plan that's no matter what
what is going to happen
and and so everything was put on the line for that
but then he had three kids and didn't really like
he was just sort of like I don't know
wasn't doing that

(14:46):
and was also had like a bad drug problem
and so I just grew up with my dad have having
he was somebody that did music
but I wasn't totally familiar with what it was
and I had heard his songs at home
through recordings of them
so I always had the songs like stuck in my head
and I knew about them through that
but I never
I saw him like play stuff a little bit here and there
just sort of messing around
we didn't really play music together

(15:07):
but he helped me when I started getting into music
um he brought home a blink 1
82 CD when I was in sixth grade
yeah and right when I heard the song
all the Small things
I immediately started learning to play drums on his
on drum pads that he had from his band back in the 80s
so I had the tools like sort of waiting for me
so then he would just buy me CDs like
and I would just listen to certain songs on repeat on a

(15:29):
you know on a discman
just on my Iowa headphones
just on loop just listening to certain songs
and so and this is around the time
you know MTV was really huge
so I'd be watching the music videos and just like
listening to
specifically the singles that I would love
um on loop
and I Learned to play drums
started a band in the garage
my dad helped build studios for us to practice in

(15:50):
in the garage and so
I was just learning to play with friends
and just doing covers
and I was always in love with melody
but I was always you know
sort of supporting the group through drumming
and I would also record our stuff and produce it okay
um you know when I was 12 or 13
14 wow
and then um
from there my dad actually my dad went out one night

(16:13):
this is a crazy story
we don't have to go deep into this
but he basically never came back and he was
he was killed in a police brutality incident one night
oh my goodness which was a
which was a crazy uh thing that happened and his music
you know that he had been working on for all that time
that was sort of his
you know he wanted to start a music publishing company
he wanted to do all the stuff with it
his music was never released
so it all just sat on tapes in the garage

(16:36):
and so when that happened I kept
I kept pursuing doing music and recording friends
bands and being in different bands
eventually
going to college for doing audio engineering
and production okay
um when I was eighteen
and I was also doing video production
this whole time as well around the same age
so filming videos for the bands
producing the songs
playing live doing all the different things

(16:58):
and eventually
I went to school and we get to work in big
multimillion dollar recording studios
and you could book time to just
to go in the studios
and just spend eight hours in there with your friends
and so that's all I would do
yeah cause I never really loved school
I almost I almost didn't um
graduate from high school
um but I got into this school
and I just go there
and just be in the studios all day long
setting up microphones renting out gear non stop

(17:21):
and I was still trying to figure out what it was that I
exactly wanted to do
but ultimately I figured out in college that it was
I just wanted to make music
I never wanted to be a producer
that was that
like the job was to be a producer
because that felt like a job
and I didn't sign up for it to be a job and
um and I just wanted to
I just wanted to play music
and so um
I met my close friend Skyler

(17:42):
when I was in college and we started a band together
um we started a band together and we uh
graduated from college and then we
we moved in with each other
and we were making music on the computer
and we'd come from like a place of being in
you know a rock band
so he played guitar and sang
I played drums
and we'd write songs in the room that way

(18:02):
and so once we were living with each other in Berkeley
this is up in the Bay Area up in Berkeley
we we're
we're starting to use MIDI a lot in the computer
to come up with melodies and to figure out
like a new sound that we were doing
this is around 2,010 or so and in doing so
we just started to put a high emphasis on
you know cause we've been playing shows

(18:24):
and nobody was coming to the shows
so we just you know
you go to the show no one's there
you're playing for like a
either a built in audience
or you're playing for friends and family
whatever it is
it's not random people coming to see you play
which is a completely different thing
we decided let's not play shows for a year
let's just focus on getting the songwriting
really dialed in like
let's just get the songs so good

(18:44):
that when we put them out
there will be people saying yes
please come play for us yeah
and so um
we decided to do that and put our heads down
and just start working in the computer
and we taken some music theory classes
in college that were really helpful
and understanding how music worked a bit better
and then using you know
my dad used MIDI back in the 80s

(19:04):
and so I always had like a
this like this apple early
apple computer that they would run MIDI
which is for anybody that doesn't know what that is
it's basically uh it's basically like note language
where if you play a note it will record the note
the length of it and the timing of it
and then it can play that back
that pitch back on the keyboard
through whatever sound you want

(19:25):
and so it can be a violin
it can be a bass
it can be a keyboard anything you want
it's like the
it's like a computer language for just understanding
music at its most basic level
if you will
and so my dad always had this idea called um
Midi Matilda
and Midi Matilda was named after my great grandmother
Minnie Matilda and his
he had this drawing that was created that was
of this robot and the robot would just

(19:46):
was helping produce
songs and helping others with their music
and understanding music and so I had this drawing
like sitting around
that wasn't even finished from like the late 80s
early 90s and so I always had that idea in my mind
and then the name I was like
that's a cool name
let's name our band Midi Matilda yeah
um nothing related to the robot
and so we did and we started

(20:08):
we writing our songs
producing music videos and and it worked
we put out our music and it was within a couple
you know months or weeks it was circulating all over
in different blogs all over the world wow
on different you know
when music blogs were more of a thing
and which LED to millions of streams
we sold out our first show to over 400 people
we got a manager booking agent wow

(20:31):
uh we got signed
we went on tour we opened up for Paul McCartney we
what we hold on
hold on let's pause right there
you opened up for Paul McCartney
yeah what the heck
yeah dude
that's so cool congratulations thanks
yeah this that we
we did a bunch of cool stuff as a band that were um
that was really exciting
and was stuff that we had not done before
but it was really a matter of just taking a step back

(20:53):
and putting high emphasis on the
specifically
the melodies and the crafting of the composition
so that what we recorded would resonate
we were very intentional about that
and it worked really well
eventually we uh in like 2020
we decided to take a break
just to explore our own projects
because we'd always been doing projects together
since college which is crazy to think about that

(21:15):
and Skyler was gonna work on his music
and I was starting to work on my dad's um
taking my dad's music from the 80s
and actually reproducing it
and bringing it back to life
which I'm working on right now and and then after that
I started to you know
make content online showing people about
you know the melodies and the songwriting stuff

(21:35):
and that really started to grow really fast
and so within a not a lot of time
I grew a really big audience around that yes
yes you did
you just popped up and I was like whoa
this is cool and then I check in a couple weeks later
and your audience is like exploded
and I'm like whoa
but you because of your video making background too

(21:57):
you make these super engaging
awesome videos like from all these different angles
and it's just so engaging
and that's what makes people want to watch them
and then obviously
what you talk about in those videos is awesome too
one of my favorite things that you always talk about
is your songwriting checklist
yes so
so I created that about a
maybe a year ago which is really just like a um

(22:19):
which is really just a sort of a focused um
list of ideas of things that most people are
seem to be unaware of when crafting a song
and so that's sort of what I do now is
you know
make individuals more aware of what's going on in music
that they love as well as being able to deliberately

(22:39):
put those things into the songs that they're creating
yes so often times when people are writing songs
they see it as being this very floaty
open lofty thing
but the songs that reach the most people
are always much more crafted and much more focused
yeah yeah
and so um
and especially when it comes to melody
which is like the most universal language that exists
that it's um

(23:00):
you know if you fundamentally look at
if you just imagine somebody in a karaoke bar right
they don't have notes on a screen
they have words on a screen
because words are a lot harder to remember than
than melodies yes right
people can remember melodies and sing along very easily
it's very intuitive kids
you know um
older folks whatever it is
all through time and so if you simply say like OK

(23:21):
people can sing can remember melodies well OK
and a song in a very specific sense
is the melody and the lyrics
not the chords or the drums
or the recording or the mixing
it's the melody and the lyrics
that's what gets copyrighted
and so you can change the chords out
the melody will still stand
you can change all those elements out
you cannot change the
if you change the melody and the lyrics
then people will stop recognizing what it is yeah

(23:42):
and you can even change the words
and people still recognize it yeah
melody you know
if you look at what a melody is
a melody is simply um
rhythm and then uh
it's not even a rhythm with notes
it's a rhythm with relative pitches right
because if a song
if you have a yesterday from Paul McCartney right
you can put it in any key and you still recognize it
yes because it's just the relationship of the notes

(24:04):
and so when you simply break it down to that
you go okay
then it's rhythm with relative pitch lengths right
shorter notes longer ones
and so the big thing the big
big big thing that um
I focus on when helping others is
is patterns and the rhythm of those patterns
because if you simply take somebody's ability to when

(24:25):
if they're crafting a melody and you
and you focus their rhythm in and you lock that rhythm
I'm a drummer obviously
I come from like a simple drum
like a mindset with this cause I am not
I'm not I know my place in understanding music theory
and I understand what's useful
and yeah
and having individuals focus in on rhythmically
locking in and being deliberate about that

(24:45):
and putting that as a priority over what's being said
it immediately makes the melodies way stronger
like I do exercises with people that are in my um
in my programs
where I will basically give them like phantom rhythms
where I'll take I can take like a hit song
right remove the notes out of it
so now you just have the rhythm of it
give you I'll give you chords
cause chords are not the melody yeah
and I will just basically have you turn the notes on

(25:08):
and the rhythms themselves will make a melody sound
a million times stronger
there's so many things that you brought up
and I'm trying to figure out where to start
melody is king is something I always say
melody is king cause I grew up speaking German
not English but I would always sing English songs
I had no idea what I was singing about
I didn't know the words either
I just mimicked the sounds that I heard
and so melody is is everything

(25:30):
and I think with a lot of singers who are trying to
maybe write their first song
they don't play any instruments
they uh
you know they don't make chord progressions
or anything like that
they just write lyrics and melodies
what would be like a quick little tip for them to like
get started with writing
like a decent song or song section

(25:53):
even just if they just have melody and
and lyrics I would say
the first immediate thing to do is to go and and
and start to visualize what the melody is
you can go on there's a website
this is I
I most of my teachings are done with a
a website called hooktheory.com
and on that website
it allows you to visualize what melodies are

(26:14):
through a color coded system
it's a chromatic system
and by simply visualizing songs that you love already
you can it's
it's not hard to see
like building blocks as far as what a song
what a melody is and so often times when someone's
when someone's created a song
they're not super deliberate
or specific in what the pitches are right

(26:35):
they may have notes that are a little bit out right
imagine the guitar again right
it's it's like getting it out of tune
yeah humans do not enjoy when something's out of tune
like that yeah
they do not and so if your melodies
if you're recording something and
and you're not and it's not in pitch
right with the
with the key that something's in uh
or that a song is in

(26:55):
it will immediately sound wrong to a human
uh huh
a fellow human yeah
a fellow music absorber um
and so
making sure you're deliberate in what the melody is
it can't be loose so people
so what happens is this song
you know songwriters
I was at an event at this
um well known songwriter named Justin Tranter's house
for this this uh

(27:17):
it was like a songwriting award ceremony for my friend
Jesse who hosts a
an event in LA called Jesse and friends
it's like a where songwriters are showcased
that have written hit songs
wow and there was an event that was at his home and uh
I just noticed the conversations right
I'm very much aware of the mindset of like
a producer versus a songwriter versus an audience uh

(27:39):
someone that's listening to it
and generally songwriters are just not focusing on
the melody as a thing
most songwriters focus on what they're saying
but people that listen to music
generally focus on that second yeah
and so it's not and it's
it's not to take away from what is being said right
I think like lyrics are immensely important

(27:59):
but you have to be like real about it
you were talking
you were saying that English wasn't your first language
okay so
so most humans
most people do not even know what the words are like
let's say like a popular Beatles song right
let's just say
yesterday is one of the most popular songs ever yeah
let's just for just for the sake of uh
exploring this
and most of the world doesn't speak English

(28:20):
so most people don't know what the words are
mm hmm and they love it
they can all sing they can all
they love it right
because melody
melody crosses every single language because it doesn't
you can you can speak any language
and you can know what the melody is
yeah and it's really about the delivery
and the feel of that melody
right that gives that
that human life to it if you don't focus on that

(28:42):
you could like
it's so much harder to connect with people
with your music and just write it on
write the words on paper if that's
if it's about what you're saying
then just write it on paper
make it a poem yeah
but if it's music if it's a song
if it's if it's
if it's we're
we're using melody as a way to communicate those words
however the stronger way
the stronger way of writing a melody

(29:02):
is to allow the melody
and the feel and the rhythm of it to be the
be the No. 1 priority
and then have the words conform to that
creativity
I think is best born out of constraints anyways right
we're constraining to a key that we're in
we're constrained to that
constrain what the melody can be
and it allows
people to actually care about what you're saying
much more because they can actually hear it
if the melody is something they can latch onto

(29:24):
they're gonna listen to what you're saying much more
yes yes
I always love it when people are bringing
like our students singers
when they're bringing in their own original songs
and we work on them like how to sing them
most of the time it's like hey
that word feels so weird in that melody um
that you that you wrote
either like it's the stressing of it is weird where

(29:47):
you know like
you're kind of like almost mispronouncing the word
because of where the stress is um
the like the emphasis of the word
or like it sits weird in your voice
and it doesn't come out right
whatever like write in quotes right
uh and so it's often
we make songwriting tweaks
then to get the vocal to come out the way they

(30:08):
want to cause they're like
this feels weird and I don't know why I don't like it
it's because there's something going on
where the lyrics and the melody
are not the perfect match
and yeah they prioritized the lyric
because otherwise
they would have just changed the melody right
but they prioritized the lyric and so we're like okay
what other word could we use here

(30:28):
or what kind of tweaks could we make to make it flow
better or whatever it is that we're trying to solve
phonetics are a massive thing
when it comes to having a melody feel good
when it
like there's that story of the Backstreet Boys song
I want it that way and how it was written
the way that it
it currently exists and different individuals on the
I think on the label side
or I'm not sure exactly where

(30:49):
said this song doesn't make sense
and so they tried to rewrite it
and the rewrite of it makes more sense
and it and it phonetically is super chunky
and feels really weird yeah
and it just and it just doesn't have that smooth flow
it doesn't feel like that
that ease to being able to sing along to it
and they went with the other one
and you can just hear it huge hit
and this was written by Max Martin
and some other people yeah

(31:10):
uh it did not flow well
so the so the flow of it was prioritized over exactly
having it mean something
that's a beautiful thing about the
like the English language
is that you can bend words in particular ways
mmm hmm um
uh to conform to the melody sounding nice
where other languages if you do that
you can change the meaning of it

(31:31):
yes and
but in the English language
you can bend words
Eminem talks about that with the word orange
and how he can
he uses that as a way to rhyme with other things
yeah I wanna go back to what you said about your dad
um how he said about himself that he just knows how to
like sing his songs
like everybody says
like he he wasn't the best singer
but he knows how to sing his songs

(31:53):
mm hmm tell me a little bit more about that
like what does that mean
and why do you think that was the case
I think as a as a creative person
you can I always tell individuals that
you know you can
you can create songs
create music that conform to who you are
and that showcase you in the best light

(32:16):
without revealing
what you don't want to be revealed
your challenges yeah exactly
yeah and it's a way smarter way to go
absolutely hahaha
and there's many songs where it's like
there's no problem in a melody being too simple right
if you it's like
it's going back to the
talking about using MIDI to visualize notes

(32:36):
right if you have
you can have a a a melody that's in a low range
and then it can jump an entire octave
and it all it takes to do that in the computer is like
you know shift up or whatever it is
to actually sing that is extremely challenging
yes
and so the key is to find your lane and rock that lane
if you're Ariana Grande cool
you're gonna do runs all over the place

(32:57):
and it's gonna sound you're gonna take a simple melody
and you're just gonna trail it off
in this particular way great
but you she can do that yeah
so like understand your your lane
and your owning of that
allows people to receive the message
hear it in a way that probably sounds more unique
right through the limitation of that
and I always think of it like a music video
where like a lot of music videos are

(33:19):
shot in a way where they don't show full body
you know shots too much
because it can reveal sometimes how lame the set is
yeah it can it can it can it can normalize things
well even here
this side of the the room
looks way different than that side of the room exactly
it's all about what you what you decide to show
what you decide to reveal

(33:40):
and so I think by not
you don't need to be some like crazy
wild singer and hit all the notes there
if you listen to birds of a feather or something
the most hooky part of that song is almost one note
it's almost one note
it's got like two or three more notes added

(34:03):
it's literally two notes
yeah 2 billion streams
I mean I'm not saying that that's the only reason why
but that is you know
a big conversation around that song
is that they always say like
well it's
people think it's the chorus
but it's not the chorus it's the pre chorus
I'm like yeah
but it's the most hooky part of the song
yes it's actually
it's a beautiful thing that
some of the greatest melodies are actually
melodies that are just repeated a bunch
and then
using harmony to make it feel like it's evolving

(34:24):
and using lyrics to make it feel like it's evolving
um and so I think trying to be like
I'm a I'm a singer
and listen to how I can sing everything
is usually the worst music
to me it's usually like
it just is it's
nobody wants that it becomes show offy sports
yes it does become sports
it's like when you have like overly clever lyrics

(34:44):
I'm like get out of here with that
I would rather have something be abstract
and let me interpret it great art is in
is something that can be interpreted by an individual
and they make it their own
and so going back to just like my dad and the singing
yeah I think he did sing his songs
you know when I listen to recordings of my dad singing
he
in comparison to a lot of people that I know sing

(35:05):
he actually had a great voice for
cause they didn't have auto tune
and they didn't have any editing
so every take is a full take
yeah it's a full take
and which is so hard to do
it's so hard to do yeah
and a lot of music that we listen to these days
even on social media
even if it looks like they're singing live yeah
it is not yeah
live or even if it was sung live
it was edited after the fact

(35:26):
and then the video was matched with the audio
so we don't ever hear true live one take vocals anymore
well I
I would even say what is reality right
because if you're to say well
it's not real what is real is
is is my hearing your voice in this environment real
well I could say well
we're not in a in a tunnel where I'm not hearing like

(35:48):
natural reverberation or a cave
for that matter yeah
totally natural right
yeah or I'm hearing it through headphones versus not
reality is completely subjective
hmm it's completely that
that that term when it comes to what is authentic
I mean even the wait
we just had the Grammys the other day
and there's an award for Best Vocal Performance
it's Best Vocal Edit I mean
there's a performance element of course to it too

(36:08):
yeah but none of those vocals are single take vocals
no no
no no
so is is it real
they're all auto tuned or maybe not all of them
but like most of them are yeah
that's totally okay these are
these are people that that are considered like the most
um celebrated singers on planet earth right now
and that's totally okay there's nothing
it's like why allow your own ego in

(36:29):
what is authentic or real or what is this the
this other thing to get in the way of doing something
that resonates with people ego
it's all ego ego yeah yes
oh my God well
it sounds like your dad really found
what I would call his prima voce
his sweet spot right
cause you said like
he wanted to highlight the things that he did well
and not reveal the challenges

(36:51):
yeah right
so for me I call it your prima voce
the sweet spot your strengths
whatever it is you wanna call it
and then you kind of stick to that
because it does you so much more good
if you stick with that
then you focus on all the things that you can't do
and then you're like
I suck at singing because I can't riff like Ariana
I wanna find I need to find that for myself
hahaha your prima voce
yeah yeah

(37:12):
cause I like that cause I haven't
like explored I've like often times
and I remember when we talked originally
I was I was exploring singing and I was sing
sometimes I'll sing really high
but my voice is naturally lower and it's like a phase
I'm excited for
that phase of moving into exploring that
because I I really feel like
I don't know what that is for myself

(37:33):
and I think it's something I can find
I just haven't I've put all my focus on other things
except for discovering what that even is yeah
and I think I think that's really cool
because I believe everybody has that
I believe everybody can can find that
but just requires exploration
and continued exploration and
and guidance towards that
exploration and feedback are the two things that uh

(37:55):
have helped me personally find my prima voce
and that's what we do with our students as well
like first we explore
what are even
all the different things that your voice can do
then where do you feel the best
what part of your voice do you like the best
and then ask other people what do they think
because they will
most likely pick up on what your prima voce is

(38:16):
because that's the thing that everybody
likes the most about your voice yeah oh
see that oh
you're gonna have to sing for other people sorry Logan
yeah
so so how can I do it without singing for other people
no no
no it's not it's well
because I think I don't know
cause I don't know that it is singing for other people
as I think
that can be discovered through the process of recording
songs and trying ideas out um

(38:39):
I think
I think I can detect that in other people easily yeah
but it's not something that I've tried to
I mean I've explored it a little bit in myself
but it's something that I've never intended to do that
yeah
I've never seen myself as being somebody that's like a
a a singer or even being like the front person of a
a project but it's one of those things that I feel like

(39:01):
is an inevitable thing
that I'm curious of exploring that
because it yeah
because it feels like a thing to
it's like a it's something to work through
and I think I probably have a lot of
emotion backed up around just my dad and his voice
and everything that happened with him
to where I just like
don't even like explore that for whatever reason
maybe unconsciously I don't even know exactly why

(39:23):
but I think anything that's like
it feels like a challenge that is
seems beneficial is something that's worth exploring
and again like
if there's so many things that I can say
about other people that I go
well then what does that mean about me
and I go well
I guess that means you know
you can it's like
cause I've always always the songs that I've
for the most part made

(39:43):
have been ones
where other people are either singing them
or it's like
I'm in a band and that person is singing the thing
whatever it is but I'm like
but if the voice is the most valuable instrument
and is honestly like gosh
I don't even know
in the future with like technology and AI and stuff
maybe it's literally the only value that we have
in certain capacities to be like
it's you like I like what you say I like you yeah

(40:04):
and so for everybody to find that I think is
is extremely and just I mean
it's honestly just uh logical
yeah hahaha
I'm I'm if we put it that way yes
I'm a I'm a Gretchen Rubin questioner
and so to me it's like if it's a if it's logical
then I I'm like well then I don't have a choice
I just have to like move in that direction well

(40:25):
now you're gonna have to explore your singing well
shit OK
hahaha I love that
I wanna talk about your songwriting because you
like what we just talked about
your dad knew how to write songs that fit his voice
well so his vocal performance came out well
so with you how do you go about songwriting
because you're like well shit
I don't know what my prima voice is
I don't know what my sweet spot is
so how do you go about it

(40:47):
my process
that I've discovered over the last couple of years
that I really enjoy is by
kind of cause I create music right
I'll get create a track
and I will throw a heavy amount of autotune on it
for the sake of exploration
within the key that I am in right
I don't want to be coming because I my
my this is for talking about all the melody stuff

(41:07):
my pitch can suck
when it comes to identifying a certain note
or identifying identifying a chord
it's kind of hilarious to me honestly yeah
um cause it's like an oxymoron
it's like I yeah I
I'm very well aware of my lack of ability
to hear certain notes
or know if that's the 4th
like I just I'm not good at that yeah
I see I can see and understand the patterns
and so when I throw on some auto tune

(41:28):
it can allow me to try things that I wouldn't normally
try and it
and also um
I love that as a tool
to discover notes that you didn't
even realize were in the key that you're in
you're like oh yeah
that note is here
and my hitting this note so off right now
it's pushing it there and then I can say oh
that's actually a cool melody
I wouldn't have come up with
I'll sing it that way and I also like taking you know

(41:51):
taking something and putting it into
a key that feels good with your voice yeah
um
that's also huge that I recommend doing that but yeah
I just like to explore
and then just try to remove pitches being a
a barrier and focus just on
trying to create something that feels interesting to me
and it feels fun to sing then I will
like listen back to it and I will find little areas

(42:12):
and I will just sort of say oh
it sounds like I'm saying this
maybe I'll just sing it in again and I'll use
I'll have the speakers full on volume
you know using like a SM7 like this or a SM58
just angled away from it
and I'll just try stuff and sing it in a interesting
way just in that moment of it
and again I don't know if I've found uh

(42:34):
found that exact magic yet but I
that's where that's where I go to explore
because my singing is not something I've
I've never sung live on a stage before
I've never um
I haven't even really put out much music with me
singing anything yeah
because I was never trying to do that
but I think it's fun to do that
I think it's a fun thing to
to to to try to do different characters

(42:56):
and see where your voice can go and um
and so
I just like being in that mode of sort of exploring
through creating do you have a little recording
that we can listen to I do
I have a I have a thing
it's a literally a it's a demo of a thing
it's actually kind of cool
it was a track that I was making on TikTok
a couple years ago and I like took chords

(43:19):
I was made I made this video that was uh
taking chords and stealing chords from get lucky
and then transferring into what I call an underlick
which is a melody that you write a song on yes
I love your underlicks and uh
and then I ended up writing this little song
thing on it and it's still in like demo form
but I did it like this and I like how it's
I like the vibe of it yeah
it's still it's kind of just like a demo vocal

(43:40):
singing over a thing
I haven't shown this to anybody before oh

(44:25):
yeah oh
I love it the like in
in that pre chorus
is maybe what I would want to call that
I'm like hold on
hold on there's no time to take a breath right
so my singer brain is like
where would I breathe where would I breathe
yeah
I sometimes think about that when editing something
as far as the realism of like breath versus
I don't know what people stances on that words
like adding breath versus like minimizing

(44:47):
making it feel like I'm always about like going in
like adding sometimes the imperfection of breath
or yeah whatever
just to add that little subconscious like
you know bit of realism or something to it
I always come through like
creating drum loops that way and like adding little
just taking a single loop and then just like

(45:08):
adding randomness to it throughout it
oh I love that
I've heard other like
production people talk about that too
to just make it sound a little bit less perfect
yeah cause sometimes if it's too perfect
then the human ear is like
this is kind of robotic you know
there's an interesting line between something being
we humans generally love things that are actually like
overly formulaic and robotic

(45:30):
mm hmm
but adding humanness to that and massaging that in
or like thinking of a
I saw this video on Instagram the other day and it was
I think it was Rick Beato
talking to the bass player that played on
or keyboard player that played on
Michael Jackson's Thriller
and he's like did you play that
the doom doom
doom doom doom
yeah the doom doom
he's like did you play that
or was that sequence that he goes
he goes dude
we couldn't we couldn't sequence that

(45:50):
I played that whole thing through
but the bass lines the whole
the same way the entire time
so I when I hear things like that
I'm like it's
we have so many tools now to be able to
very easily loop things but like doing your best
to add a human element to it
I think add something that is hard to explain
but people can feel it yeah
thank you so much for sharing this with us

(46:10):
by the way I love this
and obviously you can clearly hear the autotune right
this is not like this
this is the finished vocal or anything like that
but it allowed you to explore and
you know in some of the parts
you can barely hear the autotune
because it didn't really need much
in other parts it was heavily autotuned
and for me
it's just so interesting to hear what those parts were
because it shows me clearly

(46:31):
where you were
a little unsure of where the melody was gonna go
and so you used the
your tools after the fact to make it
whatever it is you wanted it to be
and it's always when there's like larger jumps like uh
like melodic yeah
uh melodic jumps there
so like the interval is bigger
if we wanna use music theory terms yeah
yeah so it's like

(46:52):
oh hold on
I scooped a little bit to like find the note
not there's there's nothing wrong with doing scoops
in a vocal performance I love them
but anyways yeah
it's super cool I think the the
it the
the I like the sound of um
like heavily process vocals with the
at with the auto tune cause I can I
I have multiple ways that I've worked on

(47:13):
other people's vocals
where I can make it sound completely seamless
and make it sound like
nobody would know that there's auto tune
but I like how it sounds when it has the hard set jump
so I turn it up to make sure that it yeah
that it walks because hmm again
the I personally prefer a melody
that is just more deliberate
in that in that sound
if I'm listening to

(47:34):
it's very rare that I'm gonna listen to an again
Ariana Grande is the easy example I can think of
where it has those natural bends yeah
it's just an interesting thing
the the way that a vocal feel this
the styling of a vocal through the production of it
cause there's some people where it's like
their voice is it's the sound of
the produced version of it is the cool version of it
and I want that and I don't want anything else there

(47:55):
I can think of even Tom Delonge
we're talking about blink 1 82
his voice sounds the best
when it is produced in a particular way
I've heard all the flavors of his voice over the years
yeah I've heard the more natural version
I don't want that sorry Tom
I love you but it's it's the it's it's
it's there's a particular sound where his voice is
produce in this particular manner
it's layered it's got a chorus on it

(48:16):
it's got this thing and when it sounds like that
it's the sound and if it's not that
that's okay that's cool
explore whatever but that's the sound
and that is not what he sounds like live live
he's out of tune all over the place
that one and people don't care yeah
people don't even care because it's
the recorded version
is the one that millions of people listen to yeah
and so I think there's a um

(48:37):
again what is real
what is real is whatever you want real to
to be yeah
uh cause it's what
it's really more about what you decide to
to share with others and what if you like it
then that's really the thing that matters
and if other people say that that's terrible
then it awesome I think
when you do something where people think it's terrible
you actually open up for many more people to say that
they love it because usually
things don't really connect with that many people

(48:58):
unless they were polarizing to some degree yeah
I mean they talk about that in branding too
it's like you gotta talk to specific kind of people
and on purpose repel others
that's where you find the
the real one like you're real people
I've Learned that
I've Learned that a bunch in just in my
my own um
business of like you know
helping people with their
the music is that people teach songwriting great

(49:21):
you teach rhythm and chords
and giving people something to say
and the melody and all that is so much
it's a lot yeah
it's I would say you cannot do that
because some people are just magically gifted
some people just say stuff and it's amazing
some people just sing stuff and people just say
I will sing anything for me um
that's why so much

(49:41):
I focus around the melody aspect of it
cause no one else is like
it's like
this is the most powerful thing when it comes to
arguably the most powerful thing
I would say in in the universe because hey
you can be singing the same song on another planet
as me right
you don't have to be speaking the same language
yeah um
and it's also the least um

(50:01):
the least focused on thing when it comes to yeah
you know helping what their
what their their voice stand out
I feel like
sometimes people focus even more on chord progressions
oh yeah
than melodies and I'm like why
like that's uh yeah
they're free copyrightable steel Core progression
that song that I played earlier
that was that was uh
Get Lucky but I made it melodic
so I made it into an Underlick

(50:22):
so cool like yeah
no one would ever know no
because they're not because think about it
chord progression sing a chord progression
sorry you can't
because it's like that's just not how
that's not how that works because it's
it's not a it's not a sung I
it's not a like again
melody is an organization of rhythms and
and relative pitches and so um

(50:43):
that's why you know yeah
you can't get sued for a court
I mean you can get sued but you'll lose because yeah
it's not it's not the part of the copyright yeah
yeah you'll win if you're the one getting sued
then you will win they will lose yeah
yeah yeah yeah
yeah just go to
go back to the underlick real quick
so that people understand what an underlick is
it's that

(51:05):
yeah yeah
so um
there's this company called mix with the Masters
mix with the Masters
and they do breakdowns of like hit songs
and so actually Phineas was on there recently
talking about birds of a feather
and he talked about the underlick and explained uh
it and I'll just
just for the record I'll just correct him a little bit
on the explanation of it okay

(51:25):
um but yeah
a a underlick is a
is a melody that stands on its own
but also lives beneath the vocal line
so it um
and it has the root notes of the progression within it
as well and so if you have the root notes of a
you know chord progression
you can allow movement underneath a

(51:45):
a top line melody you know the
what is sung or what is played on a guitar
whatever like a very specific melody
and so it locks your ear to the music
it's like
almost like a thumbprint for when the song comes on
and it also creates an immense amount of uh
harmony with the you know
with the singing and um
it's way easier to write a song on top of

(52:06):
when you have a melody that sounds great
without you even doing anything
so think of birds of a feather right it's a
yes yeah
I'm like hold on
I'm not hearing the song in my head
so like that yes
so it's it's like that melody plus the bass notes
doom whatever the base notes are of it right
it's a combination of those two things together
because it's

(52:27):
there's natural harmony that's created there
and then the whole song is written on that
the entire time what about the song under pressure do
do
do do do do do do do
do do
do do
do is that an underlick too
yeah
big thing that people get with the underlick is that
it is a melody that stand alone
people call it that's a motif
that's a counter melody that's yeah
it's all that it's all that

(52:48):
call it whatever you want
call it whatever you want
but specifically like if you were to say like a riff
okay a riff is doesn't
doesn't need to live underneath a vocal line
doesn't need to do that it's just like a melody right
a repeated melody yeah
so it's not that um
you can use the word motif um
but really having it have it
having the
the notes of the prog of the chord progression

(53:09):
of the root notes of it is really
really important
because that's where all the movement happens
so if you have so for anybody that's uh
listening to this if you just take a simple melody
like a one bar melody or two bar melody
and you simply just repeat that on loop
and then just take on a keyboard or whatever
take your left hand and just change the bass notes
that's all you do you that
that is how you create magic
and it's basically by taking a melody

(53:30):
and recontextualizing it with New Harmony
um and so that's like what birds of a feather
that's what a million songs
you have a whole playlist that breaks us down
I think this
this is where a lot of singers who start writing songs
get a little sidetracked with their songwriting
because they feel like they have to
change the melody over and over
and over and over again
which then doesn't create any repetition

(53:51):
and so it's not memorable
yeah and
but they think
they have to do the entire work with the vocals
when
there's a lot of work that can be done in the music
yeah when it comes to melody repetition
like what's repeated is remembered
yes and it's really a matter of like having
I look at
I really visualize music as being like little chunks

(54:13):
right and having contrasting
chunks to one another through the rhythm
the words right
and the um
and and where the melody is moving to and so yeah
it's just it's unorganized
most people in the writing songs just
it's notes all over the place
which does so many negative things
it reveals your lack of ability right
trying to hit all these notes and do all the stuff
where you can just simply

(54:34):
if you lock in
you can have the melody be way more specific way may
way more memorable and through harmony right
movement of the chord progression
the under lick right
living beneath it will make a really simple melody
it's not only it'll make it feel complex
it literally is
more rich and complex than if you were to move notes

(54:54):
right it's often times it's thought of backwards
where it's like well
this is my melody
and the melody is gonna go all over here
and the chords are gonna follow me
it's backwards
that is a backwards way of looking at it the
the better way of looking at it is
here's a progression these are the notes that are
that are within like
in the universe that you're living in
and explore within this
like whenever I walk people through doing um
writing stronger melody I

(55:14):
I again I focus them on rhythm patterns first
basically the
the notes are the notes are secondary to the rhythm
rhythm's No. 1 the notes are two uh
chord progression is at you know
is need it or not and uh
it's like basically stacked from there
because there's like a
there's a Gracie Abrams song that's um

(55:34):
big right now
and it does the same thing where it's like
it's the rhythm pattern is consistent
and you can even change the notes of the rhythm
yeah right
and it can still be like it'll
people can latch onto it that way um
just by the rhythm
being catchy and repeating rhythms throughout a song
okay but now I wanna know yeah
how do you teach someone good rhythm for a melody
you can literally

(55:55):
steal any rhythm you want from any song
and use it as your own you can
there rhythm is free I mean
it's like it's just patterns right
so it's just patterns it's just patterns
so you can just take any pattern you want
and you can pop it in and you can like
use this pattern again I think that's just not even a
I think melody is not thought of as being rhythm at all
it's just thought of as like what I'm saying
so I can say what I want the lyrics

(56:16):
the lyrics is what you're saying
not the melody yeah
it's just it's
it's very backward it's the way that
the reason that most people doesn't not
doesn't connect with people
is because they're focusing on a thing
that is not a priority to a listener
they're focusing on themselves
I wanna say this thing yeah
and it's not that
people don't wanna hear what you're saying
they wanna hear what you're saying
and they wanna connect with that
but they are not even allow
you're not even allowing them in
if your melody is not strong

(56:37):
if your notes are and if your notes are not in tune
they're not gonna
it's like you're distracting from everything when
when you're not being specific and deliberate in
in what the melody is what the rhythm is being precise
and it's really a thing
it's like you can be learning this
you can always be learning
because music is always playing
just go listen to some of it and focus in

(56:57):
most people are just not paying
attention to what that is
and I think just generally speaking
people that are singing their songs
are heavily focused on
well this is what I have to say and yes
that does matter but people are not gonna listen to it
if your melody is not strong
there's certain
might as well be considered laws or rules
when it comes to writing music
that resonates with the most people
I'll just say it like that
that if you break those rules

(57:19):
you're breaking the
you're breaking the trust with the listener
the same way that like
if someone's hearing a drummer play
and the kick drum is going
and you start to change
change the tempo of it or you start to change the beat
you are you are doing a disservice to the listener
being able to even follow along yeah
but people think no with my melodies it's like no
it's that's not the same thing
it's like it literally by definition is it's like

(57:42):
it's patterns yeah
that we resonate with
and you can listen more intentionally to
to songs you can
you can hear the patterns
and if you remove the notes and the words
then you you can sometimes really see the patterns
you know I have a feeling
this is kind of gonna be a theme for today
is actually like listening because um
like
one thing that we always talk about in our lessons is
like hey
you need to learn how to listen like a singer

(58:04):
like a musician and like
how actors watch movies
differently than the average person
a musician a singer
listens to music differently than the average person
as well
and so if you wanna identify like what makes something
like what why you like something
not what makes something great period
but like why you like something too

(58:25):
it's like you have to analyze it and listen and see
what about it do you really do you really like yeah
you can learn a lot from that
cause you don't need to reinvent the wheel
like you said
like just take a rhythm from any melody out there
anything you like
and just change up the notes and then boom
you have something new but you have the same rhythm
or you change the rhythm slightly

(58:45):
like you're not creating something completely new
from scratch yeah
and I think
there's just certain ways that you can reprogram
your subconscious
you know mind to be more aware of things right
like if you're in a songwriting session
there's so many ways it can go as far as like
depending on who you're working with
so if I'm working with my buddy Tom

(59:05):
we're like we're locked in
we're like should it be two syllables right there
it's like no
the other one's one syllable
lock it into it should be
it should be symmetrical yeah
most people are not thinking like that at all
but that's how like so many songs that people love they
they do that and it's
it's a matter of being not overly uh
obnoxiously analytical and like
sitting there like a scientist in the computer
it's about being

(59:26):
just more conscious about what you're doing
and more aware of what the pattern is
because it's like I mean
or don't and do whatever you want
yeah but just know
that songs that generally reach the most people
that people can sing along to immediately follow um
guidelines and then you break those guidelines
but if you don't know what the guidelines are
then there's nothing for you to break
you're just you're floating

(59:46):
I have a pop brain and for me it's like every
like the syllables have to be the pop
perfect match from phrase to phrase to phrase
if like if it's the melody and the rhythms are the same
like the syllables better freaking be the same thing
and if it's not I'm like nope
not good enough try again
try again
and every time someone comes in with a song and that
it just doesn't follow that

(01:00:06):
you know that perfect pop brain of mine
my brain breaks and I'm like
hold on now I can't follow along anymore
I mean I can
I'm being a little bit dramatic here
but for me it's like well
if it's if the syllables are like right there and
you know it's that perfect match
it's much easier for people to remember
which means
more people are probably going to enjoy your song
because they can remember it and sing it back to you

(01:00:28):
yeah I do definitely come at everything from a
I'm not thinking of like
Frank Zappa or something like that
but it's
and this has become much more of a uh
a thing through time to follow certain patterns
or it's not even follow certain patterns
it's just being pattern focused in what it is
um and so yeah
if you are somebody that's not trying to do something

(01:00:50):
that you care at all about
people being able to remember it
then you don't have
you can do every single note you want
like go for it
it's just a matter if you're gonna be aware of what
you know it's not even a matter of being overly uh
focused on what that pattern is
but just being more focused in you know
being able to follow rules
so that you can break those rules if you want to

(01:01:11):
but at least know that you're doing that yeah
you know like I one I have is the uh
or that I came up with the name for
is the tri loop twist which is very simple
just an a a a B pattern you know
but see I love that you're giving it um
like a a a B for the melody right
cause like we talk about a
a a B all the time for like rhymes
rhymes like an a B
a B rhyme or a B B a rhyme or whatever

(01:01:33):
but no one's familiar with that for melody for melodies
but it's the same anyway sorry
yeah yeah
I yeah no
for sure it's it's it's yeah
as a step as a separate stand alone thing
I mean if you think it go back to birds of a feather
it's a great example cause it's like
I think the most of the whole song is a a
a B for each section there's oh really
they're just different melodies doing it

(01:01:54):
and there's little vocal inflection
little flare that's added to it
but at the core of it of what the song is
the thing that people sing along to it's
it's most for the most part
I'm gonna need to listen to the song
cause I know it from passing
but I'm like not like
but I do wanna put your melody
being the most important thing okay
to the test if you're up for it yeah
play a little guess the hum game okay

(01:02:14):
where you're just humming and I have to guess the song
meaning all I'm hearing is the melody with okay
the rhythms and the relative notes right
so you can even pick what key you wanna sing it in
I always do um

(01:02:38):
do I absolutely don't what are you basing that off of
I'm just curious how your brain
your brain can know that without having a keyboard here
what key it is yeah oh
I don't know I mean
she sings it like probably like all the single ladies
all the single ladies
all the single ladies put your hands up
that's probably the somewhere close to the key

(01:03:00):
where she's actually singing it in
but I don't know somewhere up there
it I base it off of what it feels like in my voice oh
interesting and um
what I like the the
the sounds that I'm hearing like
you know is she more mixy
is she more heady is she more chesty
how rich is it how bright is it
all of that
the vocal performance informs the key for me cool well

(01:03:21):
let's see if you can guess mine
nope I'm not gonna do that one
I don't I can't hear the song right now
oh my God hmm
I'm gonna down the road I'm gonna

(01:03:43):
no more yeah Old Town Road fun fact
this is like
this just goes into what you were talking about before
I for the longest time thought they were singing
I'm gonna take my horse to the hotel
I can't no more I'm like what the fuck is this song
it's still weird
why is he taking the horse to the hotel room

(01:04:07):
I was like what is it
yeah Old Town Road
I I didn't know what the song was called
and then when I heard like
oh Old Town Road not hotel room
that's what he's singing dude
I heard a version of that of
is it Billy Ray Cyrus singing that
and it was yes there was no notes
it was one note it was a note one note version of that
it was crazy
I love it let's do one more okay do do do

(01:04:54):
another perfect example of what this course means
absolutely
like there's no lyrical meaning in this course
that's okay and everybody knows it
it's a world famous song
it's just so tell me what you want yeah
there's an interesting point like what I've um
conversation I've had about in regards to like the
you know the the how do I say this the distance between

(01:05:17):
you know how
of melody being a
much more of a focal point versus it not
you know how it matters or it doesn't matter
at the same time
you can write a whole song that means nothing
and it just has a bunch of great melodies
and it's and it's
that can be a really hard challenge to do that um
to basically

(01:05:37):
inject meaning into something that doesn't have any
and so I guess it's different for everybody
I know that Gracie Abrams song
that's so true I heard her talking about that
and she was saying that it was a song that
they had the melody for it for months
and they didn't have any words for it
oh really
and there's some like non lyrical uh
melodies in that chorus but the uh
it can be easier to right

(01:05:59):
have a read a lot of people like to start writing
a song with a concept
so there's a guidance because sometimes you can make
what the hell are we even
what is this yes
yeah that can be easier to do on your own
I feel like to be abstract in that way
but if you're with somebody else
having a guide like
some type of guiding
information that you can relate to
is useful I do see that where it's like
you write all your melodies on like a keyboard
and you can be like what

(01:06:19):
why are we doing what
what's the reason for even this thing existing
and so it's definitely a balance of having awareness
right
and even that's a quiet awareness within your mind
when you're working with somebody to be guiding things
cause everything comes down to like who's
what's the filter for this thing
getting out into the world
that's like what a great producer can do
yeah is understanding like
this is not a stronger
like how do you guide someone to say

(01:06:41):
maybe we could say this is there a
is there a one one syllable you can do right there
what if you don't change the note right there
uh huh cause that's what most of the time
it's just going off the yeah
Old Town road yeah
oh my God I love that
thank you so much for sharing all of these
great insights I definitely Learned a lot
and I'm sure everybody
watching or listening has Learned a ton as well

(01:07:01):
um I do wanna
end with the question that I ask all of our guests
and that question is what to you
is the difference between a singer and an artist
cause that's what our podcast is called
from singer to artist
a lot of people can sing right
a lot of I think most people sing something
does it have to sound great

(01:07:22):
I don't know right
but an artist is someone that's
looking to express something that is uniquely them
and is
like we were talking about earlier
looking to put something that is
identifiable as theirs into
into the universe I would say that

(01:07:44):
it's about expressing something that is yeah
it's unique uniquely yours
and there's a lot of people that sing
that all sound the same
it's completely you can't tell the difference
and so finding that uniqueness
I believe that's something everybody has
and that's often times more about the
the individual pursuit to put something into the world

(01:08:06):
if you think of like a painting in a right
if you think of a painting in a gallery
and it's got just a random
like red Mark on it or something
people like I don't get it
I don't understand why this is here well
maybe the meaning maybe there's a story behind it right
maybe there's maybe there's an individual behind it
and that is actually the value of the thing existing
and it doesn't make sense to a lot of people of

(01:08:26):
why even find that but I think the banana
did you see the banana yeah
the banana
exactly the banana with the duct tape exactly
it doesn't make sense right
but all at the same time
especially with like stuff like AI can just generate
it can generate quote unquote art
right it can just generate stuff
and it can sit at the airport on the wall
and people don't even pay attention to it
there's no meaning with it

(01:08:46):
there's nothing behind it
other than it just is a visual thing
and a lot of people that are not really
tapped in just experience
reality is non meaning and so
I think
it really comes down to the meaning that you give
your singing and the discovery of um
your uniqueness of what you can put into the world
so that's sort of what I think it is to be an artist

(01:09:07):
versus just a singer meaning
I like it thank you so much
thank you for being on Logan for sharing your wisdom
thank you for taking the time
you're a busy man so thank you so much
uh where can everybody find you
um you can find me on uh
Instagram and TikTok
vibe machine spelt v I b 3 dot m a C

(01:09:29):
h I n e vibe machine um
and then
if you wanna grab the free version of that checklist
I mentioned it's a
the songwriting checklist.com perfect
I'll definitely be sure to link to that
thank you so much I love your checklist
I love all your videos that you make about it
because it really points out how I like
you're breaking down different songs and like
why they are great and I think that's um

(01:09:50):
that's super cool so
thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us
on the internet and with us here on our podcast
so awesome thank you
we'll see you next time sounds good thank you