December 13, 2024 • 41 mins
In this podcast episode, Jonathan Levine, the founder, and CEO of Master & Dynamic, shares his journey of creating a luxury audio brand inspired by his son's love for music. Launched in 2014, the company emphasizes design and craftsmanship, prioritizing quality materials and acoustic performance over technology hype. Levine discusses the importance of brand consistency and trust among luxury consumers, highlighting the need for a long-term vision in the industry. He reflects on the gradual success of Master & Dynamic, emphasizing the role of customer connections and word-of-mouth in promoting the brand. The conversation concludes with thoughts on the future of luxury, focusing on the desire for fewer but better products.
Jonathan Levine is a serial consumer products entrepreneur. After a short career on Wall Street and after graduating from business school with a major in finance, Jonathan started his first company, Power-To-Go, which became a leader in 12V-powered automotive aftermarket accessories.
He then went on to found Team Products International, a portable power equipment and lawn & garden company, selling products under the licenses Coleman; Coleman Powermate, and Sunbeam. His last non-audio business was Lancer & Loader Group where he became an early leader in battery-operated LED lighting products under the Rite Lite brand. All three businesses had successful exits.
Levine launched the design-driven luxury audio company Master & Dynamic in May 2014. From a mere idea sparked by the products his then-teenage sons were using to a coveted brand with an increasing number of products, Master & Dynamic has been built on the same principles that drive Mr. Levine: design, technology, craftsmanship, creativity, and collaboration. With Mr. Levine at the helm, Master & Dynamic has partnered with many of the most respected and iconic luxury brands in the world including Louis Vuitton, Chanel, Celine, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Mercedes/AMG, Ermenegildo Zegn, and Leica Camera.
Mr. Levine earned an MBA in Finance from the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business in 1987 and an undergraduate degree in English from the University of Pennsylvania in 1984. During his time at The University of Pennsylvania, Levine was a member of the Nationally ranked Lightweight Men’s Crew team and an officer of the Sigma Chi Fraternity. He did this while simultaneously working full-time during his sophomore, junior and senior years.
Levine is the father of two sons and stepfather to four children. He is an avid cyclist, runner, swimmer, and endurance athlete. In July 2024 he and his son-in-law set a Guinness World Record running 24 Half Marathons in 30 days.
@masterdynamic
Connect with him on daniellanger.digital and Instagram @drdaniellanger. If interested in luxury training opportunities please visit:
Équité Brands: https://equitebrands.com/
Instagram: @drdaniellanger
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
So welcome, Jonathan.
It's an incredible pleasureto have you on the podcast.
And, I remember our firstmeeting many years ago.
I think it was actuallybefore just before the pandemic when,
when we were I thinkwe met first in London,
at a joint event, andthen I invited you to,
my university to do apresentation with my
(00:29):
with my students.
And I think thencame the pandemic.
And then we met a few monthslater for the next time.
So every time we meet,it's a great pleasure.
And, I'm very, very proud tohave you on on the podcast today.
And maybe to start,
tell us a little bit aboutyou and also about Master and
Dynamic.
Yeah.
Well, it's good to be,speaking to you, unfortunately,
(00:50):
virtually, but, we'll seeeach other again in person.
So, I'm Jonathan Levine.
I'm the founder and CEOof New York City based
luxury audio company,Master and Dynamic.
I started the company,
I started thinking about thecompany in twenty thirteen.
I launched it in,twenty fourteen.
(01:12):
I've never been in audio before.
I've never been in theluxury business before.
I'm a serial consumerproducts entrepreneur,
and I got the idea tocreate MasterDynamics
from, my two sons,
who were very into music.
One of them was a DJ. Theother one was a videographer.
And,
(01:32):
you know, that'swhere the you know,
this is also at a timewhen they were using Beats.
Beats was taking over the world,
and I just saw adifferent opportunity.
And, you know,
I think part of the success is that wedid not try and become the next Beats.
We we took a verydifferent path.
Yeah.
I remember that, you toldme the the first time we met
(01:56):
how critical design is for youin in that not only design,
but also excellent audio.
But tell us a little bit about thedesign aspect of master dynamic.
Yeah. It's still what drives us.
I I tell people allthe time, and it's,
one hundred percent true.
Everything we do,every product we do
(02:16):
starts with design.
And then we layer inall of our technologies,
whether it be software,whether it be acoustics,
and other other ideas.
But, again, itall and materials,
but it alwaysstarts with design.
And, you know, I think, Iremind people that, you know,
(02:37):
in the history of of wearables,
of which headphones areprobably one of the first
technology wearablesever invented,
the key to being successful inwearables is you have to design
them so peoplewant to wear them.
If people like anything else,whether it be a a watch, glasses,
(02:58):
sometimes people forget that.
So we've been very fortunate tobe very focused on that, and,
it's it's still our, you know,it's still our North Star.
Mhmm.
And, you know, I haveI have my own pair of,
MW seventy fiveshere in my hand,
and the I think sincesince we first met,
(03:18):
I had the pleasure to to,
use your headphonesand your earphones
practically every day.
So the earphones aremy go to earphones,
when I have meetings,
and I I use them practicallyon every meeting.
And these guys, I really usewhen I want to listen to,
you know, music here at the houseor especially on on a plane.
(03:41):
And I can only, you know,
confirm what you said.
The the design aspectis just incredible.
The durability is incredible.The sound is incredible.
So every time I wearthem, it's an experience.
Thank you.
I we appreciate your, beinga long term, fan and user.
And, by the way,that's, you know,
(04:01):
that's part of our ourmarketing strategy is when we
have people like you,
using our product and beingseen in public, it, it creates,
interest in theproducts for sure.
Mhmm.
And one thing that, thatI wanted to ask you, also,
you know, since you alsojust told us that, you know,
(04:23):
as a serial entrepreneur,
you did a lot of things more maybein the consumer goods sector,
and then luxury was something maybenew for you for as a category.
What is for you luxury,
and how do you see theluxury world evolving?
What is luxury?
You know, I I,
(04:45):
you know, I didn't, you know,I probably without knowing it,
I was probably a luxury consumer
for a good portion of my life.
It doesn't mean, thatI wanted to, you know,
pay for the most expensiveproduct or the most,
widely distributed in products.
I really wanted something that,
(05:08):
evoked some somethingvisceral to me,
whether it be the materials,the craftsmanship,
probably some of the,you know, the scarcity,
this concept of discovery.
And, you know,
I think I I consider one of thethings that I think about with
(05:29):
luxury, and it'swhat I use in my own
business, is theconcept of effort.
For me, I when I seethe effort that goes
into building ordesigning a product,
whether it be a pair of shoes,sunglasses, you name it,
that's the connection I have.
And I think it'sprobably for me,
it's stronger just becauseI'm a I'm a maker myself.
(05:52):
To me, that's that'sthat's luxury. Yeah.
Yeah.
I love the word I love the wordeffort because there is also a
connection with youknow, typically,
a lot of people say it'scraftsmanship or so,
but I think it's morethan craftsmanship.
It's kind of the it'sthe intentionality
of creating, you know,
products that reallymatter to to people.
(06:13):
And I think this is also wherethe design aspect comes in.
Yeah. I think I yep. No. No. No.
I was gonna say,
I think that there's a nuancebetween craftsmanship and and effort.
Effort, I feel,is in the design
process of why they why didthey put that there versus here?
(06:34):
Why, you know, why why didthey do this type of stitching
versus something?
And and when that effort isalso part of the functionality,
it really you know, itit becomes very special.
Yeah.
And what is the inspiration foryou since you just mentioned
the design process for youand your team when you come up
(06:55):
with, for example,a a new headphone?
How do you get theinspiration for this?
Well, you know, I think the the inthe the first products that we made,
you know, they were I I guess my
this you know, I have apretty big team by now,
(07:15):
but when I first started,
it was a very small team.
I hired one designer.He's still with us.
And I sort of gave him the thegeneral gist of what I wanted.
And and my, I mysensibility is, I guess,
what some people wouldcall industrial chic.
I love,
(07:35):
I love when I can look atsomething and, you know,
here I'm in Paris, andI was just in London.
I for me,
what what I I like the sortof when I can see the history
that went into something, and,
I can see part of the industrialage and then how it still
exists in a in the modern age.
(07:57):
So, you know, I'm a big believer in thethis idea that the future needs heritage.
Mhmm.
And I think that's, you know,
look at the look at themicrophone in front of you,
you know, thatyou're talking into,
that that that metal mesh,that recessed metal mesh,
hinders back to probably the one ofthe some of the first microphones.
(08:20):
It's functional, but itcould also be just fabric,
which would completelycreate a different completely
different, you know, aesthetic.
Right? Mhmm. Yep. Yep.
So And I thinkmaybe connected to
this because both ofall both of us share
a passion for travel.
And I know you wereas you just mentioned,
(08:41):
you're in Paris right now,and it's just been in London.
I'm going to Asia, tomorrow.
So for you, whenyou when you travel,
is is travel also for youa source of inspiration?
And if yes, kind of where do you or howdo you get inspiration through travel?
Yeah. It's a it's a hugesource of inspiration.
It's not just in Europe.
(09:01):
It could be I go to, you know,a lot of different places.
What is the ins you know,
I I don't I never cometo a city saying I
want to go see thatstore or that museum.
I like to meander.
I like the the sense of adventureand stumbling on things.
(09:24):
I look down a lotversus looking up,
meaning I see things inthe street, you know,
in the manhole covers andand in the chains, you know,
that are that are a lot that are aroundthis church and even the stonework.
I walk a lot.
I run a lot, and Ijust try and stay very,
(09:45):
observant.
I'm constantly taking photos onmy phone of things that inspire
me and then going backand sketching things.
And, yeah, I mean,
it's it's the it's thehappiest part of my I mean,
I'm a I'm a very lucky andfortunate entrepreneur, but,
I always tell people the thebest part of my day is when I
(10:06):
get to to work with my productteam on newer existing products.
Or, you know, a lot of mytravels in Europe, as you know,
are with my collaborationpartners and being able to sit
with them and create,
I learned so much. Youknow? I learned so much.
Yeah.
Wonderful. No.
And it's it's,
(10:27):
it just makes me reflectalso on my on my own travel,
and I think what you say is soimportant because, for example,
for me, I always lovewhen I'm at the airports
to see, for example, whichluggage are people using.
And then, you know, indifferent places in the world,
you see different brands,different expressions.
In some places, it'smuch more fashionable.
In other places,much more functional.
And the same when you go torestaurants or also and I think
(10:51):
just observing people all overthe world is such a you know,
is is so important for forwhat we do and to get an
understanding alsofor, you know,
for trends and for for for alsothe differences in in culture.
And sometimes theycan be, you know,
two or three countries thatare close to each other,
but somehow have a completelydifferent way of expressing.
(11:12):
Some maybe more more introspect,
some much moreextrovert, and so on.
So I I think thisis so critical.
Yep. Yep. Agreed. Agreed.
Talking about collaborations.
So how how,
important arecollaborations for you,
and what makes agreat collaboration?
(11:33):
Because, of course, inthe luxury industry,
a lot of brands aredoing collaborations.
So so tell us a littlebit about your view on
collaborations and maybealso your learnings.
For sure.
Well, you know, I,
I've been doing collaborations
since we launched, literallyin twenty fourteen.
(11:53):
We were very fortunateto be connected with,
some young designers,
gentlemen who had a who stillhave a a brand called Proenza
Schuler based out of NewYork. We did some custom headphones.
People still talk about them.
And for me, you know,just to be candid,
and I'm sure otherentrepreneurs share this at at
(12:14):
the start of the business.
For me, it was justabout, you know,
borrowing brandaffinity and, you know,
we were we had no record youknow, we we had just launched.
We had zerorecognition, and it was
borrowing, you know, theirbrand their brand equity.
And we did that quitefrankly for, you know,
I would say the first threeyears and did it well.
(12:38):
Then things turned intomore, you know, usually,
the first collaborations werewere not moneymakers and,
you know, were justbrand building.
Then they started to generate revenuefor both parties and brand building.
And, you know, that be now it's turnedinto a very big part of our business.
(12:59):
So so what is importantin a collaboration?
One is,
I like to work with verydifferent companies.
I like to I believe that
brands it's I think you andI have talked about this in the
past that I think,
the brands that I've alwaysloved in my life and still
(13:20):
attract my attention,old or new,
are the ones that I I say,
create holy shitmoments, things that,
you didn't expect them to do.
And then when you thinkabout it, you say, oh,
that's exactly whythey'd make sense,
and then you lovethem even more.
So I believe in moving around.
You know, we dostuff in streetwear.
(13:40):
We do stuff in,obviously, you know,
high high luxury.
We just launched aheadphone, a very,
very popular headphone withthe luxury brand Celine.
We do stuff in theautomotive world.
But but beyond that,the most important thing
two two probably the mostimportant things is I learned
(14:03):
something you know,
for me being able to docollaborations with all these
different types of brands,many of them in luxury,
it's like going to it's likegetting your MBA in luxury.
You get to learn so much aboutthese brands and how they think
and how they operate.
So it's a greatplace to to learn.
And then
(14:24):
I think why our collaborationsare very successful
is we seldom
just change thecolor of a product.
We seldom justslap a logo on it.
We really
like to what I say,
we like to show the effortfrom both companies,
and we like to show theDNA of both companies.
(14:44):
Mhmm. And that's whythey're successful.
Not when they're justa a master dynamic
product in a different color.
You know, that's not reallyour our our our foray.
You know, that's notwhat we try and do.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
Is there maybe onespecific one that,
you want to highlight that basicallymaybe underlines that a little bit?
(15:09):
Well, you know, I think the,
let me let me letme try and think.
I wasn't prepared to talk about,
one in particular.
And some of the collaborationswe don't speak about publicly
even though they're publicbecause we may not be named in
that collaboration.
You know, I did one recently
(15:31):
with,
he's the bassist for,the band Coldplay.
His name is Guy Berriman,
an amazing musician,
super creative gentleman,who has lots of diverse
interests in
fashion.
He has his own fashionbrand. He has a car magazine.
(15:53):
He's a collectorof of furniture.
And, and we created this first
headphone, whichwas very successful.
We leveraged our veryiconic Master and
Dynamic MH forty, but, you know,
Guy wanted to createsomething that
paid homage to theApollo era and NASA.
And, we, you know,sourced all these
(16:16):
different materials, specialmaterials, and fabrication, and,
it, you know, itwas a great success.
And so, you know, it wouldhave been easy for us to just
change colors, but we actuallyreally thought we we you know,
I wish I had the images toshow you, but, but that's, you know,
(16:36):
that's a that's awhat I call a a,
an an a relatively easycollaboration for us.
And then there's others wherewe just create a project from
scratch, like thespeaker we've the
concrete speaker we did,
the thirty five poundconcrete speaker we did,
(16:56):
with the the Arcospec DavidAgio, yeah, several years ago,
which, you know,
could be one of my favorite pieceswe've ever created just because Yeah.
No one ever done anythinglike that. So yeah.
That's that's incredible.
And then maybe,
another topic that I found that Ifind fascinating in in your business,
(17:18):
because it's a littlebit different than, you know,
maybe if you if you thinkabout some some other luxury,
categories, like, you know,
when you think aboutleather goods or so,
where you have a lot oftechnology in your products,
or your productsbasically live also,
apart from design fromthe technology side.
What are maybe the thekind of specific challenges
(17:40):
to create kind of atechnology product and luxury,
and what are the things thatyou need to keep in mind when
you design the in ina technology product?
Yeah.
I think the I I andwe go through this a
lot because we we do alot of technology products
(18:01):
for and with luxury brands.
And,
you know, the reality is that,
in my opinion,
the the buyer the consumerfor a luxury audio product I'm
gonna say, you know, inthis you're saying tech.
I'm obviously, my all myproducts are technology
(18:22):
products, but they're
Mhmm.
The luxury consumer that andthat buys our products or,
you know, meaning with ourcollaboration with luxury
partners, they want I thinkthe first thing is, obviously,
they love the design, andthat design incorporates,
a lot of the DNA and logosfrom that luxury bin.
The second thing is theythey love the materials.
(18:44):
It feels luxurious.
The third thing is thatit works really well,
you know, consistently,great acoustics, great microphones.
But the you know,
if you make a we're nottrying to make a product,
that is going to be at the at thebleeding edge of newest technology.
(19:08):
Mhmm.
Not that we not that wecompromise on technology,
but but, you know,
if they there's wehave good data that
says that theluxury can you know,
anybody who's buying a sixteenhundred dollar pair of earphones
is probably has multiple pairof AirPods as well that they
have a a different relationshipwith or more utilitarian.
(19:31):
And and, you know, we're,
we're constantlysort of you know,
sometimes we have to educateour our new partners on this,
but most of them trustus that, you know,
we're still makingtop of the you know,
best in class products, butwe're not we're not talking
about the techno we're notscreaming the technology from
(19:52):
the from the rooftops.
I I don't know if thatanswers the question.
It's a bit it's abit nuanced, but,
you know, I yeah.
Mhmm.
And then if because one of thethings that I noticed all the
time and this is for meone of the, you know,
was the game changer when I the Ihad the first time a master dynamic,
(20:17):
headphone over my my earsis just how amazing they sound.
And to me, the the acousticsis really what sets us apart.
And, you know, andthen, of course,
also the noise cancelingwhen I'm in the plane also.
But,
the the I I guessthere's a lot of
effort that goes inin the acoustic tuning
(20:37):
and and so on.
So, can you tell us alittle bit about that,
how you get to thisabsolutely incredible sound?
You know, I think I I think we Imean, I I'm going into, you know,
the the true part of the storyis that I think we just got
very lucky from the start.
You know?
(20:57):
When I started Master Dynamic,
I didn't I didn't I Ihad a very small team.
I had never built anytype of audio product.
I had I had successin, you know,
a lot of experience in in designingand building other products.
As I said, I had,you know, two music,
obsessed sons.
One was a DJ, youngmusic producer,
(21:20):
and I remember to this day,
we created a playlist
to tune the headphones to.
And he would say, you know,
this is probably twentythirteen, twenty fourteen.
He was,
how old then?
He was, sixteen years old maybe,
and he was probably you know,
it was Kanye West andJay z and but he also
(21:42):
added some Philip Glass, thethe the musical the classic,
music, composer.
I think being my age,
I I added some Van Morrison andsome a bunch of other people,
some jazz and blues.
And so what wecreated is this very,
(22:03):
this amazing mix of genres totune to without knowing what
the hell we weredoing, quite frankly.
And the first reviewscame out, and,
a lot of the reviewers said thatcouple things I remember is,
you know, they'regenre agnostic,
which is what wewanted to create.
And I think the biggestcompliment I got,
(22:25):
very early on was from a verya very significant reviewer,
a very reveredreviewer, and he said,
you should be congratulatedbecause you you realized
you realized you're in the music
reproduction business, notthe music production business.
And I said, what does that mean?
And he said, well, you'replaying the music exactly the
(22:47):
way the artistwanted it to sound.
You're not changing it basedon your own preferences,
and that's becomeour North Star.
Mhmm. That's becomeour North Star.
And we don't we don't skimp on,
materials or components.
You know?
We,
we over I I would I would argue thatwe overbuild every product we make.
(23:11):
We never we never focuson what it costs us.
We focus on,
is it something that we would beproud to put out in the market?
And I think that's why somany so much of our business
and some, you know,
is working with luxury firmsor in different collaborations
because they trustus to make them the
(23:32):
best product available.
Mhmm.
If you you said you mentionedthat, the company was founded,
like, almost a decadeago from to from today.
I'm a I'm a ten yearovernight success, Daniel.
Yeah. Is it andthis is wonderful.
So if you look if you lookback at the, you know,
the the last ten years,
(23:52):
but also as you mentioned as amaybe luxury consumer yourself,
what would you sayare kind of the,
in your observations,
the biggest changes that yousee in a luxury client today
versus maybe, you know, whenyou started and maybe even,
you know, from yourobservations before?
So what are what are kind of thechanges in lifestyle and expectations
(24:15):
and maybe behaviorsand preferences?
Of the of the ofthe luxury consumer?
Mhmm.
I I think,
you know, I I,
that's a good question.
I I,
how have they
(24:35):
it
I think they want you know,
it's I I'm I'm trying to answerthis in a way in a different
different way is that Mhmm.
You know, I thinkit's our consistency
and our discipline which
enables us to playat the level we do.
Mhmm.
And I think
and then that thenyou take that forward.
(24:56):
And I think the luxury consumerwants to trust the brand.
They don't want you know,
they they wannabelieve in the brand.
They don't want the brand to breakwhat I call breaking the promise,
an implicit promise of why theyfirst engage with the brand.
Yeah. I don't, it'sa very good question.
(25:18):
I I I want to, you know,think about it again,
but maybe I wannahear your I mean,
I know it's this is you'resupposed to be asking me
questions, but II wanna, you know,
I love the way you think,
and I'm gonna take theopportunity to ask you a
question if that's okay.
The same question.
Wonderful. No.
And I you know,
maybe I build on what you saidthat that there there should be
(25:38):
an element of of trust and anelement of, you know, of a promise.
And I I think you are spot onwe are spot on with with that.
Because if I look at thebrands that you know,
even if you take, you know,
brands that have been aroundfor hundred and fifty years
longer or, you know,sixty years or so.
So let's say legacy brands.
(26:00):
And if you look at whichbrands have been successful
over time, over decades,
and which brands arekind of, you know,
brands that aresometimes going up,
and then they have aphase where they go down,
and then they have a phaseagain where they go up,
or maybe, you know, even brandsthat are not not performing.
I I really think thatwhat you said is is,
(26:22):
something that is very that isvery critical in here because
what I observe is if you look at,let's say, even the recent, you know,
quarter figures that have beenpublished by some of the luxury houses,
there are some brands thatare not doing well right now.
And what I observe with thebrands that are underperforming
is that they have done quiteradical changes over the
(26:46):
last one or two years.
Sometimes, you know, theyhire a new creative director,
then change direction,
cut almost ties with the past.
And then the new creativedirector says, okay.
Now under my leadership,there's a reset of the brand,
and the brand is now different.
And what you see is thatthe customers are then a bit
confused on what thebrand really stands for.
(27:09):
And I think if youhave see other brands,
you know, for me,let's say, for example,
Hermes would be a great example.
Chanel would be a great example,
and Louis Vuitton would be alsoa great example that that had
managed to to gothrough, you know,
periods where they haddifferent creative directors.
You know?
For example, when you thinkabout Chanel, the you know,
(27:29):
after Karl Lagerfeld,
there was a huge question markbecause he was larger than life.
How would the successortreat the brand?
And the brand basicallyjust continued
and innovated, changedcertain things,
but was alwaystrue to their DNA.
And I and it's, very, veryimpressed, for example,
also with Louis Vuitton because when youalso see over the last couple of years,
(27:53):
the changes of creativedirectors when and then when
they were really startingto disrupt even internally with
virtual upload and then,you know, unfortunately,
when virtual uploadpassed away, then again,
changes in creative directorsand now with Farrell.
Williams, again, was aphenomenal person there.
But what I think what theydo extremely well is each new
(28:14):
creative directorto me seemingly
has a very good understandingof the DNA of the brand.
And I think most importantly,
a respect for theDNA of the brand.
And then they bring their owntheir own individuality in,
their own, you know, culturalfit in and so on and change
things up and shake things up,
(28:35):
but it still remains thebrand while some other brands,
are not able really to do thesetransitions between, let's say,
creative directorsor creative direction
without basically goingthrough ups and downs.
And I think, here, this thisis what you said before.
You know, having this clear understandingof who you are is so critical.
(29:00):
Yeah.
And I think there's anotherfactor here, which is,
you know, that you have to be
disciplined.
You have to be patient. Youhave to take the long view.
Think about, youknow, you know,
let's go back in time whenyou know the story of Hermes.
Right?
It was a saddle a salarycompany, and then, you know,
(29:21):
they realized that theywere selling less saddles because
there was somethingcalled an automobile.
And I'm sure that was a bit ofa terrifying period for them.
But they stayed thecourse, and they innovated.
And, you know, andthen they went like,
a lot of luxury companiesthat were family owned and and
multigenerational,then they went public.
(29:44):
And, you know, thatsometimes can be the undoing,
of some of these of someof these luxury brands.
You know,
if you talk the LVMH is public,and they manage it very well.
Hermes is public. They do agreat job. Chanel is private.
I think, quite frankly,that's to their benefit,
(30:04):
because they can, again,
don't have to worryabout quarter to quarter.
You know, I think what happens,you know, Ferrari is public.
And, you know, youknow, from time to time,
the markets may not agree with the strategyand the market and the stock might,
you know,
decline sometimes significantly.
(30:26):
And that's wherethe great companies
differ from the
the the okay companiesis they don't panic.
They stay the course.
They don't let the,
the stock price really,
affect their business strategy.
Mhmm.
And I think that's, again,goes back to the you know,
what I said before,discipline in luxury,
(30:51):
consistency is really,really important.
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
And I would also, youknow, also reflecting a bit more,
I can't I will borrow thisword that you used before about
effort, you know,putting effort in.
I think this is to me also adifferentiator between brands that,
are consistently
(31:11):
performing over time andbrands that, you know,
go through the up and down.
Because sometimes I feellike there are certain brands
that kind of cut corners.
So they go to youknow, there's a trend,
and they follow the trend,
and they see competitordoing some things,
then they they gothey try to, you know,
not for fear of missing out,
then try to do something thatthis competitor is doing.
(31:32):
And by this, theythey kind of almost,
you know, lose theiridentity of who they are.
And, and I think also, you know,
when it comes to I like alsovery much what you said before
around collaborations,
which basically where you saidboth both partners have to
bring themselves in, andthere has to be also, like,
(31:53):
an intentionality in that.
And because there's also,again, I mean, you know,
collaborations now in in theluxury world are somehow the
name of the game.
But there's, again,
certain brands thatwhere it feels that the
collaborations almostare, kind of random,
and and you don't seenecessarily two DNAs
(32:14):
coming together andthen creating something
different or something exciting,
but something maybemore expected.
And I think, you know,
this this kind of wow momentsthat you mentioned before
are also so so critical, but butthis intentionality, the effort,
you can basically say isprobably even goes beyond just
(32:34):
the product, but in almosteverything that the brand has to do.
And this then comes back towhat you said about the the,
you know, being very,
being very, youknow, consistent,
and and very focused indeveloping the brand.
Right. Right.
Being consistent doesn't meanyou can't be creative and
innovative and playful.
(32:56):
But Mhmm.
You have to,
you know but but withwith within that,
there has to be some typeof trust and consistency
from your from your your fansand your and your consumers.
Right?
They they will again,
it's it's this conceptas you that you know,
it's like earning thepermission from the consumer.
(33:17):
Right?
Yeah.
And, and not breakingthe promise. So yeah.
Mhmm.
And maybe one one thing that comesto my mind right now is, you know,
or you mentioned a little bitearlier in our conversation
that, you know, for you,
it's also very important whowears your head phone so that
(33:37):
basically the the customeryour customers your customers
basically become the thespokespeople of of the brand.
So so I would becurious about, you know,
when when it comes to connecting
your brand withcustomers and Yeah.
Getting the word out.
And so what are what arefor you also learnings,
(34:00):
over the last decade and maybealso some critical success
factors that you can share Yeah.
In Yeah.
In in basically, you know,
marketing your brand in a sense.
Yeah.
I mean, I just wanna, you know,make sure people understand.
I I don't I don't,
I don't worry about who's wearingwearing my my product or not.
I think, you know,
(34:21):
I'm very proud to haveanybody wearing my product.
And
usually, the people who whomake the effort to buy our
product, you know,
they there's a lot of a lotof options on the market.
There's a lot of, you know,cheaper products on the market.
People are making aconsidered purchase.
Mhmm.
And I I know I didn't Idid something, you know,
(34:44):
sort of it it wasn't reallyscientific, but back, you know,
I think, almost when wearound the time we launched,
one of our our,
our our trademarks was and wewe talked about a lot was we
called it sound toolsfor creative minds.
Mhmm.
That was our probablyour first campaign
(35:04):
and brand positioning.
And as I would travel aroundNew York City or in in
different cities and I wouldsee somebody wearing my
headphones, I would stop them.
I wouldn't tell them who I was,
and I'd say somethingto the effect of,
like and a lot of times,
I'd have to signal for them to takethem off so they could hear me.
(35:25):
And I'd say, hey.
Those those are greatheadphones. Whose are they?
And they'd say Master andDynamic, and I he's like, oh,
it's this cool brandcalled Master and Dynamic.
I was like, oh,where'd you get them?
And they tell me wherethey bought them.
I said, what doyou think of them?
And they said, oh,they're amazing.
And then I'd ask themthis last question, which,
(35:47):
they, you know, they always would lookat me a little bit strange at first,
and they'd say I say, andwhat do you do for a living?
And, and then theywould tell me,
and I would say,
I'm the I would pull out mybusiness card and say, thank you.
It's my company.
And it was alwaysa big surprise,
and and I would stay intouch with a lot of people.
(36:07):
That's a long way of saying that
that the majority of the peopleI asked that question to were
in creative fields.
Mhmm.
They were artists.They were designers.
It was very interesting.
It was very inter architects,it was very interesting to see.
(36:27):
So,
you know, and thatjust helps, you know,
that just helpspromote the brand.
I mean, it's really, I trulybelieve in in word-of-mouth.
And and, you know,when you see somebody,
on the street wearing somethingdifferent and they have a
certain way about themor look about them,
(36:49):
you always take a double take.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep.
And how important is for forMaster and Dynamic social media?
We do our own socialwell, I'll tell you,
it's important.
(37:09):
We don't stress over it.
We we are very, veryfortunate that we get more,
again, through our collaborationswhen our partners who are much
bigger in sizes, have muchbigger falls when they post,
it's it's amazingshot in the arm.
Our social media is,
(37:30):
if you were to go on our onon at master nemic dot com
at master nemic onInstagram right now,
you would not seeany celebrities.
We don't usecelebrities as a rule.
We do have a lot of celebritiesand influencers and musicians
who wear our product.
If they're photographed,
we we thank them.
(37:53):
If,
if they post it, we thankthem, but we never repost.
We just, we treat it with,
you know you know, I thinkit's what I would call quiet luxury.
Be before there wasa term quiet luxury,
we were sort of just you know,
(38:14):
I think I think there's beena tipping point in fashion and
luxury where there's almostoverpromotion with celebrities.
And, we just don't wanna we just
that's not our thing.
We let our productspeak for itself.
I love that because to me,
it signals also a very strong selfconfidence of the of the brand.
And I feel sometimes when Isee brands that are overusing
(38:39):
celebrities or almost, like,depending on celebrities,
it, to me, in today's world,feels almost a bit like,
you know, you almostbeg for the acceptance,
or for for the celebrityto, to endorse you.
And that, for me, takes abit of way way of, like,
confidence of the brands.
(39:00):
I love that approach.
Maybe my my to concludeour our conversation,
I would be very curious wheredo you see the future of luxury?
And I know it's a bigquestion, but what are, like,
things that you see trends andand so on where you where you
think the future ofluxury is going to go?
I think,
(39:22):
I well, I mean, I'll go backto effort and discipline.
I think what you're gonna see is
is luxury brands,
(39:42):
probably creating,
higher you know, continuing to to pushhigher and higher in price points,
not to gouge the consumer,
but to just to create productsthat that of higher value,
and
probably
create fewer overall products.
(40:04):
Mhmm.
And I think that's
that's something I plan ondoing at Master and Dynamic.
You know, I don't wannafill landfills with with,
lots of, you know,headphones and and batteries.
I we care about that.
But I also think I I think,
(40:25):
we're at a tippingpoint in terms
of longevity, and Ithink people want,
you know, there's a lotof wealth in this world,
and you don't necessarily have to beextremely wealthy to be a luxury consumer.
But I think people
are gonna, there's a trend to wantingfewer but better things in your life.
(40:47):
Wonderful.
I think this is anamazing conclusion.
And, Jonathan, thank you so much forbeing on on this podcast and taking the
time out of your businessschedule to to be with us.
I thought it was afantastic conversation.
I learned a lot.
And Likewise. Likewise.
Yeah. Thank you.
And tomorrow, when I willbe on my next flight,
I will have these guys on again.
(41:08):
Alright. Safe travels, Daniel.Good speaking with you.
Yeah. Likewise.Bye bye. Bye bye.
Thank you so much,Jonathan. Bye bye.
Bye bye.
So welcome, Jonathan.
It's an incredible pleasureto have you on the podcast.
And, I remember our firstmeeting many years ago.
I think it was actuallybefore just before the pandemic when,
when we were I thinkwe met first in London,
at a joint event, andthen I invited you to,
my university to do apresentation with my
(00:29):
with my students.
And I think thencame the pandemic.
And then we met a few monthslater for the next time.
So every time we meet,it's a great pleasure.
And, I'm very, very proud tohave you on on the podcast today.
And maybe to start,
tell us a little bit aboutyou and also about Master and
Dynamic.
Yeah.
Well, it's good to be,speaking to you, unfortunately,
(00:50):
virtually, but, we'll seeeach other again in person.
So, I'm Jonathan Levine.
I'm the founder and CEOof New York City based
luxury audio company,Master and Dynamic.
I started the company,
I started thinking about thecompany in twenty thirteen.
I launched it in,twenty fourteen.
(01:12):
I've never been in audio before.
I've never been in theluxury business before.
I'm a serial consumerproducts entrepreneur,
and I got the idea tocreate MasterDynamics
from, my two sons,
who were very into music.
One of them was a DJ. Theother one was a videographer.
And,
(01:32):
you know, that'swhere the you know,
this is also at a timewhen they were using Beats.
Beats was taking over the world,
and I just saw adifferent opportunity.
And, you know,
I think part of the success is that wedid not try and become the next Beats.
We we took a verydifferent path.
Yeah.
I remember that, you toldme the the first time we met
(01:56):
how critical design is for youin in that not only design,
but also excellent audio.
But tell us a little bit about thedesign aspect of master dynamic.
Yeah. It's still what drives us.
I I tell people allthe time, and it's,
one hundred percent true.
Everything we do,every product we do
(02:16):
starts with design.
And then we layer inall of our technologies,
whether it be software,whether it be acoustics,
and other other ideas.
But, again, itall and materials,
but it alwaysstarts with design.
And, you know, I think, Iremind people that, you know,
(02:37):
in the history of of wearables,
of which headphones areprobably one of the first
technology wearablesever invented,
the key to being successful inwearables is you have to design
them so peoplewant to wear them.
If people like anything else,whether it be a a watch, glasses,
(02:58):
sometimes people forget that.
So we've been very fortunate tobe very focused on that, and,
it's it's still our, you know,it's still our North Star.
Mhmm.
And, you know, I haveI have my own pair of,
MW seventy fiveshere in my hand,
and the I think sincesince we first met,
(03:18):
I had the pleasure to to,
use your headphonesand your earphones
practically every day.
So the earphones aremy go to earphones,
when I have meetings,
and I I use them practicallyon every meeting.
And these guys, I really usewhen I want to listen to,
you know, music here at the houseor especially on on a plane.
(03:41):
And I can only, you know,
confirm what you said.
The the design aspectis just incredible.
The durability is incredible.The sound is incredible.
So every time I wearthem, it's an experience.
Thank you.
I we appreciate your, beinga long term, fan and user.
And, by the way,that's, you know,
(04:01):
that's part of our ourmarketing strategy is when we
have people like you,
using our product and beingseen in public, it, it creates,
interest in theproducts for sure.
Mhmm.
And one thing that, thatI wanted to ask you, also,
you know, since you alsojust told us that, you know,
(04:23):
as a serial entrepreneur,
you did a lot of things more maybein the consumer goods sector,
and then luxury was something maybenew for you for as a category.
What is for you luxury,
and how do you see theluxury world evolving?
What is luxury?
You know, I I,
(04:45):
you know, I didn't, you know,I probably without knowing it,
I was probably a luxury consumer
for a good portion of my life.
It doesn't mean, thatI wanted to, you know,
pay for the most expensiveproduct or the most,
widely distributed in products.
I really wanted something that,
(05:08):
evoked some somethingvisceral to me,
whether it be the materials,the craftsmanship,
probably some of the,you know, the scarcity,
this concept of discovery.
And, you know,
I think I I consider one of thethings that I think about with
(05:29):
luxury, and it'swhat I use in my own
business, is theconcept of effort.
For me, I when I seethe effort that goes
into building ordesigning a product,
whether it be a pair of shoes,sunglasses, you name it,
that's the connection I have.
And I think it'sprobably for me,
it's stronger just becauseI'm a I'm a maker myself.
(05:52):
To me, that's that'sthat's luxury. Yeah.
Yeah.
I love the word I love the wordeffort because there is also a
connection with youknow, typically,
a lot of people say it'scraftsmanship or so,
but I think it's morethan craftsmanship.
It's kind of the it'sthe intentionality
of creating, you know,
products that reallymatter to to people.
(06:13):
And I think this is also wherethe design aspect comes in.
Yeah. I think I yep. No. No. No.
I was gonna say,
I think that there's a nuancebetween craftsmanship and and effort.
Effort, I feel,is in the design
process of why they why didthey put that there versus here?
(06:34):
Why, you know, why why didthey do this type of stitching
versus something?
And and when that effort isalso part of the functionality,
it really you know, itit becomes very special.
Yeah.
And what is the inspiration foryou since you just mentioned
the design process for youand your team when you come up
(06:55):
with, for example,a a new headphone?
How do you get theinspiration for this?
Well, you know, I think the the inthe the first products that we made,
you know, they were I I guess my
this you know, I have apretty big team by now,
(07:15):
but when I first started,
it was a very small team.
I hired one designer.He's still with us.
And I sort of gave him the thegeneral gist of what I wanted.
And and my, I mysensibility is, I guess,
what some people wouldcall industrial chic.
I love,
(07:35):
I love when I can look atsomething and, you know,
here I'm in Paris, andI was just in London.
I for me,
what what I I like the sortof when I can see the history
that went into something, and,
I can see part of the industrialage and then how it still
exists in a in the modern age.
(07:57):
So, you know, I'm a big believer in thethis idea that the future needs heritage.
Mhmm.
And I think that's, you know,
look at the look at themicrophone in front of you,
you know, thatyou're talking into,
that that that metal mesh,that recessed metal mesh,
hinders back to probably the one ofthe some of the first microphones.
(08:20):
It's functional, but itcould also be just fabric,
which would completelycreate a different completely
different, you know, aesthetic.
Right? Mhmm. Yep. Yep.
So And I thinkmaybe connected to
this because both ofall both of us share
a passion for travel.
And I know you wereas you just mentioned,
(08:41):
you're in Paris right now,and it's just been in London.
I'm going to Asia, tomorrow.
So for you, whenyou when you travel,
is is travel also for youa source of inspiration?
And if yes, kind of where do you or howdo you get inspiration through travel?
Yeah. It's a it's a hugesource of inspiration.
It's not just in Europe.
(09:01):
It could be I go to, you know,a lot of different places.
What is the ins you know,
I I don't I never cometo a city saying I
want to go see thatstore or that museum.
I like to meander.
I like the the sense of adventureand stumbling on things.
(09:24):
I look down a lotversus looking up,
meaning I see things inthe street, you know,
in the manhole covers andand in the chains, you know,
that are that are a lot that are aroundthis church and even the stonework.
I walk a lot.
I run a lot, and Ijust try and stay very,
(09:45):
observant.
I'm constantly taking photos onmy phone of things that inspire
me and then going backand sketching things.
And, yeah, I mean,
it's it's the it's thehappiest part of my I mean,
I'm a I'm a very lucky andfortunate entrepreneur, but,
I always tell people the thebest part of my day is when I
(10:06):
get to to work with my productteam on newer existing products.
Or, you know, a lot of mytravels in Europe, as you know,
are with my collaborationpartners and being able to sit
with them and create,
I learned so much. Youknow? I learned so much.
Yeah.
Wonderful. No.
And it's it's,
(10:27):
it just makes me reflectalso on my on my own travel,
and I think what you say is soimportant because, for example,
for me, I always lovewhen I'm at the airports
to see, for example, whichluggage are people using.
And then, you know, indifferent places in the world,
you see different brands,different expressions.
In some places, it'smuch more fashionable.
In other places,much more functional.
And the same when you go torestaurants or also and I think
(10:51):
just observing people all overthe world is such a you know,
is is so important for forwhat we do and to get an
understanding alsofor, you know,
for trends and for for for alsothe differences in in culture.
And sometimes theycan be, you know,
two or three countries thatare close to each other,
but somehow have a completelydifferent way of expressing.
(11:12):
Some maybe more more introspect,
some much moreextrovert, and so on.
So I I think thisis so critical.
Yep. Yep. Agreed. Agreed.
Talking about collaborations.
So how how,
important arecollaborations for you,
and what makes agreat collaboration?
(11:33):
Because, of course, inthe luxury industry,
a lot of brands aredoing collaborations.
So so tell us a littlebit about your view on
collaborations and maybealso your learnings.
For sure.
Well, you know, I,
I've been doing collaborations
since we launched, literallyin twenty fourteen.
(11:53):
We were very fortunateto be connected with,
some young designers,
gentlemen who had a who stillhave a a brand called Proenza
Schuler based out of NewYork. We did some custom headphones.
People still talk about them.
And for me, you know,just to be candid,
and I'm sure otherentrepreneurs share this at at
(12:14):
the start of the business.
For me, it was justabout, you know,
borrowing brandaffinity and, you know,
we were we had no record youknow, we we had just launched.
We had zerorecognition, and it was
borrowing, you know, theirbrand their brand equity.
And we did that quitefrankly for, you know,
I would say the first threeyears and did it well.
(12:38):
Then things turned intomore, you know, usually,
the first collaborations werewere not moneymakers and,
you know, were justbrand building.
Then they started to generate revenuefor both parties and brand building.
And, you know, that be now it's turnedinto a very big part of our business.
(12:59):
So so what is importantin a collaboration?
One is,
I like to work with verydifferent companies.
I like to I believe that
brands it's I think you andI have talked about this in the
past that I think,
the brands that I've alwaysloved in my life and still
(13:20):
attract my attention,old or new,
are the ones that I I say,
create holy shitmoments, things that,
you didn't expect them to do.
And then when you thinkabout it, you say, oh,
that's exactly whythey'd make sense,
and then you lovethem even more.
So I believe in moving around.
You know, we dostuff in streetwear.
(13:40):
We do stuff in,obviously, you know,
high high luxury.
We just launched aheadphone, a very,
very popular headphone withthe luxury brand Celine.
We do stuff in theautomotive world.
But but beyond that,the most important thing
two two probably the mostimportant things is I learned
(14:03):
something you know,
for me being able to docollaborations with all these
different types of brands,many of them in luxury,
it's like going to it's likegetting your MBA in luxury.
You get to learn so much aboutthese brands and how they think
and how they operate.
So it's a greatplace to to learn.
And then
(14:24):
I think why our collaborationsare very successful
is we seldom
just change thecolor of a product.
We seldom justslap a logo on it.
We really
like to what I say,
we like to show the effortfrom both companies,
and we like to show theDNA of both companies.
(14:44):
Mhmm. And that's whythey're successful.
Not when they're justa a master dynamic
product in a different color.
You know, that's not reallyour our our our foray.
You know, that's notwhat we try and do.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
Is there maybe onespecific one that,
you want to highlight that basicallymaybe underlines that a little bit?
(15:09):
Well, you know, I think the,
let me let me letme try and think.
I wasn't prepared to talk about,
one in particular.
And some of the collaborationswe don't speak about publicly
even though they're publicbecause we may not be named in
that collaboration.
You know, I did one recently
(15:31):
with,
he's the bassist for,the band Coldplay.
His name is Guy Berriman,
an amazing musician,
super creative gentleman,who has lots of diverse
interests in
fashion.
He has his own fashionbrand. He has a car magazine.
(15:53):
He's a collectorof of furniture.
And, and we created this first
headphone, whichwas very successful.
We leveraged our veryiconic Master and
Dynamic MH forty, but, you know,
Guy wanted to createsomething that
paid homage to theApollo era and NASA.
And, we, you know,sourced all these
(16:16):
different materials, specialmaterials, and fabrication, and,
it, you know, itwas a great success.
And so, you know, it wouldhave been easy for us to just
change colors, but we actuallyreally thought we we you know,
I wish I had the images toshow you, but, but that's, you know,
(16:36):
that's a that's awhat I call a a,
an an a relatively easycollaboration for us.
And then there's others wherewe just create a project from
scratch, like thespeaker we've the
concrete speaker we did,
the thirty five poundconcrete speaker we did,
(16:56):
with the the Arcospec DavidAgio, yeah, several years ago,
which, you know,
could be one of my favorite pieceswe've ever created just because Yeah.
No one ever done anythinglike that. So yeah.
That's that's incredible.
And then maybe,
another topic that I found that Ifind fascinating in in your business,
(17:18):
because it's a littlebit different than, you know,
maybe if you if you thinkabout some some other luxury,
categories, like, you know,
when you think aboutleather goods or so,
where you have a lot oftechnology in your products,
or your productsbasically live also,
apart from design fromthe technology side.
What are maybe the thekind of specific challenges
(17:40):
to create kind of atechnology product and luxury,
and what are the things thatyou need to keep in mind when
you design the in ina technology product?
Yeah.
I think the I I andwe go through this a
lot because we we do alot of technology products
(18:01):
for and with luxury brands.
And,
you know, the reality is that,
in my opinion,
the the buyer the consumerfor a luxury audio product I'm
gonna say, you know, inthis you're saying tech.
I'm obviously, my all myproducts are technology
(18:22):
products, but they're
Mhmm.
The luxury consumer that andthat buys our products or,
you know, meaning with ourcollaboration with luxury
partners, they want I thinkthe first thing is, obviously,
they love the design, andthat design incorporates,
a lot of the DNA and logosfrom that luxury bin.
The second thing is theythey love the materials.
(18:44):
It feels luxurious.
The third thing is thatit works really well,
you know, consistently,great acoustics, great microphones.
But the you know,
if you make a we're nottrying to make a product,
that is going to be at the at thebleeding edge of newest technology.
(19:08):
Mhmm.
Not that we not that wecompromise on technology,
but but, you know,
if they there's wehave good data that
says that theluxury can you know,
anybody who's buying a sixteenhundred dollar pair of earphones
is probably has multiple pairof AirPods as well that they
have a a different relationshipwith or more utilitarian.
(19:31):
And and, you know, we're,
we're constantlysort of you know,
sometimes we have to educateour our new partners on this,
but most of them trustus that, you know,
we're still makingtop of the you know,
best in class products, butwe're not we're not talking
about the techno we're notscreaming the technology from
(19:52):
the from the rooftops.
I I don't know if thatanswers the question.
It's a bit it's abit nuanced, but,
you know, I yeah.
Mhmm.
And then if because one of thethings that I noticed all the
time and this is for meone of the, you know,
was the game changer when I the Ihad the first time a master dynamic,
(20:17):
headphone over my my earsis just how amazing they sound.
And to me, the the acousticsis really what sets us apart.
And, you know, andthen, of course,
also the noise cancelingwhen I'm in the plane also.
But,
the the I I guessthere's a lot of
effort that goes inin the acoustic tuning
(20:37):
and and so on.
So, can you tell us alittle bit about that,
how you get to thisabsolutely incredible sound?
You know, I think I I think we Imean, I I'm going into, you know,
the the true part of the storyis that I think we just got
very lucky from the start.
You know?
(20:57):
When I started Master Dynamic,
I didn't I didn't I Ihad a very small team.
I had never built anytype of audio product.
I had I had successin, you know,
a lot of experience in in designingand building other products.
As I said, I had,you know, two music,
obsessed sons.
One was a DJ, youngmusic producer,
(21:20):
and I remember to this day,
we created a playlist
to tune the headphones to.
And he would say, you know,
this is probably twentythirteen, twenty fourteen.
He was,
how old then?
He was, sixteen years old maybe,
and he was probably you know,
it was Kanye West andJay z and but he also
(21:42):
added some Philip Glass, thethe the musical the classic,
music, composer.
I think being my age,
I I added some Van Morrison andsome a bunch of other people,
some jazz and blues.
And so what wecreated is this very,
(22:03):
this amazing mix of genres totune to without knowing what
the hell we weredoing, quite frankly.
And the first reviewscame out, and,
a lot of the reviewers said thatcouple things I remember is,
you know, they'regenre agnostic,
which is what wewanted to create.
And I think the biggestcompliment I got,
(22:25):
very early on was from a verya very significant reviewer,
a very reveredreviewer, and he said,
you should be congratulatedbecause you you realized
you realized you're in the music
reproduction business, notthe music production business.
And I said, what does that mean?
And he said, well, you'replaying the music exactly the
(22:47):
way the artistwanted it to sound.
You're not changing it basedon your own preferences,
and that's becomeour North Star.
Mhmm. That's becomeour North Star.
And we don't we don't skimp on,
materials or components.
You know?
We,
we over I I would I would argue thatwe overbuild every product we make.
(23:11):
We never we never focuson what it costs us.
We focus on,
is it something that we would beproud to put out in the market?
And I think that's why somany so much of our business
and some, you know,
is working with luxury firmsor in different collaborations
because they trustus to make them the
(23:32):
best product available.
Mhmm.
If you you said you mentionedthat, the company was founded,
like, almost a decadeago from to from today.
I'm a I'm a ten yearovernight success, Daniel.
Yeah. Is it andthis is wonderful.
So if you look if you lookback at the, you know,
the the last ten years,
(23:52):
but also as you mentioned as amaybe luxury consumer yourself,
what would you sayare kind of the,
in your observations,
the biggest changes that yousee in a luxury client today
versus maybe, you know, whenyou started and maybe even,
you know, from yourobservations before?
So what are what are kind of thechanges in lifestyle and expectations
(24:15):
and maybe behaviorsand preferences?
Of the of the ofthe luxury consumer?
Mhmm.
I I think,
you know, I I,
that's a good question.
I I,
how have they
(24:35):
it
I think they want you know,
it's I I'm I'm trying to answerthis in a way in a different
different way is that Mhmm.
You know, I thinkit's our consistency
and our discipline which
enables us to playat the level we do.
Mhmm.
And I think
and then that thenyou take that forward.
(24:56):
And I think the luxury consumerwants to trust the brand.
They don't want you know,
they they wannabelieve in the brand.
They don't want the brand to breakwhat I call breaking the promise,
an implicit promise of why theyfirst engage with the brand.
Yeah. I don't, it'sa very good question.
(25:18):
I I I want to, you know,think about it again,
but maybe I wannahear your I mean,
I know it's this is you'resupposed to be asking me
questions, but II wanna, you know,
I love the way you think,
and I'm gonna take theopportunity to ask you a
question if that's okay.
The same question.
Wonderful. No.
And I you know,
maybe I build on what you saidthat that there there should be
(25:38):
an element of of trust and anelement of, you know, of a promise.
And I I think you are spot onwe are spot on with with that.
Because if I look at thebrands that you know,
even if you take, you know,
brands that have been aroundfor hundred and fifty years
longer or, you know,sixty years or so.
So let's say legacy brands.
(26:00):
And if you look at whichbrands have been successful
over time, over decades,
and which brands arekind of, you know,
brands that aresometimes going up,
and then they have aphase where they go down,
and then they have a phaseagain where they go up,
or maybe, you know, even brandsthat are not not performing.
I I really think thatwhat you said is is,
(26:22):
something that is very that isvery critical in here because
what I observe is if you look at,let's say, even the recent, you know,
quarter figures that have beenpublished by some of the luxury houses,
there are some brands thatare not doing well right now.
And what I observe with thebrands that are underperforming
is that they have done quiteradical changes over the
(26:46):
last one or two years.
Sometimes, you know, theyhire a new creative director,
then change direction,
cut almost ties with the past.
And then the new creativedirector says, okay.
Now under my leadership,there's a reset of the brand,
and the brand is now different.
And what you see is thatthe customers are then a bit
confused on what thebrand really stands for.
(27:09):
And I think if youhave see other brands,
you know, for me,let's say, for example,
Hermes would be a great example.
Chanel would be a great example,
and Louis Vuitton would be alsoa great example that that had
managed to to gothrough, you know,
periods where they haddifferent creative directors.
You know?
For example, when you thinkabout Chanel, the you know,
(27:29):
after Karl Lagerfeld,
there was a huge question markbecause he was larger than life.
How would the successortreat the brand?
And the brand basicallyjust continued
and innovated, changedcertain things,
but was alwaystrue to their DNA.
And I and it's, very, veryimpressed, for example,
also with Louis Vuitton because when youalso see over the last couple of years,
(27:53):
the changes of creativedirectors when and then when
they were really startingto disrupt even internally with
virtual upload and then,you know, unfortunately,
when virtual uploadpassed away, then again,
changes in creative directorsand now with Farrell.
Williams, again, was aphenomenal person there.
But what I think what theydo extremely well is each new
(28:14):
creative directorto me seemingly
has a very good understandingof the DNA of the brand.
And I think most importantly,
a respect for theDNA of the brand.
And then they bring their owntheir own individuality in,
their own, you know, culturalfit in and so on and change
things up and shake things up,
(28:35):
but it still remains thebrand while some other brands,
are not able really to do thesetransitions between, let's say,
creative directorsor creative direction
without basically goingthrough ups and downs.
And I think, here, this thisis what you said before.
You know, having this clear understandingof who you are is so critical.
(29:00):
Yeah.
And I think there's anotherfactor here, which is,
you know, that you have to be
disciplined.
You have to be patient. Youhave to take the long view.
Think about, youknow, you know,
let's go back in time whenyou know the story of Hermes.
Right?
It was a saddle a salarycompany, and then, you know,
(29:21):
they realized that theywere selling less saddles because
there was somethingcalled an automobile.
And I'm sure that was a bit ofa terrifying period for them.
But they stayed thecourse, and they innovated.
And, you know, andthen they went like,
a lot of luxury companiesthat were family owned and and
multigenerational,then they went public.
(29:44):
And, you know, thatsometimes can be the undoing,
of some of these of someof these luxury brands.
You know,
if you talk the LVMH is public,and they manage it very well.
Hermes is public. They do agreat job. Chanel is private.
I think, quite frankly,that's to their benefit,
(30:04):
because they can, again,
don't have to worryabout quarter to quarter.
You know, I think what happens,you know, Ferrari is public.
And, you know, youknow, from time to time,
the markets may not agree with the strategyand the market and the stock might,
you know,
decline sometimes significantly.
(30:26):
And that's wherethe great companies
differ from the
the the okay companiesis they don't panic.
They stay the course.
They don't let the,
the stock price really,
affect their business strategy.
Mhmm.
And I think that's, again,goes back to the you know,
what I said before,discipline in luxury,
(30:51):
consistency is really,really important.
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
And I would also, youknow, also reflecting a bit more,
I can't I will borrow thisword that you used before about
effort, you know,putting effort in.
I think this is to me also adifferentiator between brands that,
are consistently
(31:11):
performing over time andbrands that, you know,
go through the up and down.
Because sometimes I feellike there are certain brands
that kind of cut corners.
So they go to youknow, there's a trend,
and they follow the trend,
and they see competitordoing some things,
then they they gothey try to, you know,
not for fear of missing out,
then try to do something thatthis competitor is doing.
(31:32):
And by this, theythey kind of almost,
you know, lose theiridentity of who they are.
And, and I think also, you know,
when it comes to I like alsovery much what you said before
around collaborations,
which basically where you saidboth both partners have to
bring themselves in, andthere has to be also, like,
(31:53):
an intentionality in that.
And because there's also,again, I mean, you know,
collaborations now in in theluxury world are somehow the
name of the game.
But there's, again,
certain brands thatwhere it feels that the
collaborations almostare, kind of random,
and and you don't seenecessarily two DNAs
(32:14):
coming together andthen creating something
different or something exciting,
but something maybemore expected.
And I think, you know,
this this kind of wow momentsthat you mentioned before
are also so so critical, but butthis intentionality, the effort,
you can basically say isprobably even goes beyond just
(32:34):
the product, but in almosteverything that the brand has to do.
And this then comes back towhat you said about the the,
you know, being very,
being very, youknow, consistent,
and and very focused indeveloping the brand.
Right. Right.
Being consistent doesn't meanyou can't be creative and
innovative and playful.
(32:56):
But Mhmm.
You have to,
you know but but withwith within that,
there has to be some typeof trust and consistency
from your from your your fansand your and your consumers.
Right?
They they will again,
it's it's this conceptas you that you know,
it's like earning thepermission from the consumer.
(33:17):
Right?
Yeah.
And, and not breakingthe promise. So yeah.
Mhmm.
And maybe one one thing that comesto my mind right now is, you know,
or you mentioned a little bitearlier in our conversation
that, you know, for you,
it's also very important whowears your head phone so that
(33:37):
basically the the customeryour customers your customers
basically become the thespokespeople of of the brand.
So so I would becurious about, you know,
when when it comes to connecting
your brand withcustomers and Yeah.
Getting the word out.
And so what are what arefor you also learnings,
(34:00):
over the last decade and maybealso some critical success
factors that you can share Yeah.
In Yeah.
In in basically, you know,
marketing your brand in a sense.
Yeah.
I mean, I just wanna, you know,make sure people understand.
I I don't I don't,
I don't worry about who's wearingwearing my my product or not.
I think, you know,
(34:21):
I'm very proud to haveanybody wearing my product.
And
usually, the people who whomake the effort to buy our
product, you know,
they there's a lot of a lotof options on the market.
There's a lot of, you know,cheaper products on the market.
People are making aconsidered purchase.
Mhmm.
And I I know I didn't Idid something, you know,
(34:44):
sort of it it wasn't reallyscientific, but back, you know,
I think, almost when wearound the time we launched,
one of our our,
our our trademarks was and wewe talked about a lot was we
called it sound toolsfor creative minds.
Mhmm.
That was our probablyour first campaign
(35:04):
and brand positioning.
And as I would travel aroundNew York City or in in
different cities and I wouldsee somebody wearing my
headphones, I would stop them.
I wouldn't tell them who I was,
and I'd say somethingto the effect of,
like and a lot of times,
I'd have to signal for them to takethem off so they could hear me.
(35:25):
And I'd say, hey.
Those those are greatheadphones. Whose are they?
And they'd say Master andDynamic, and I he's like, oh,
it's this cool brandcalled Master and Dynamic.
I was like, oh,where'd you get them?
And they tell me wherethey bought them.
I said, what doyou think of them?
And they said, oh,they're amazing.
And then I'd ask themthis last question, which,
(35:47):
they, you know, they always would lookat me a little bit strange at first,
and they'd say I say, andwhat do you do for a living?
And, and then theywould tell me,
and I would say,
I'm the I would pull out mybusiness card and say, thank you.
It's my company.
And it was alwaysa big surprise,
and and I would stay intouch with a lot of people.
(36:07):
That's a long way of saying that
that the majority of the peopleI asked that question to were
in creative fields.
Mhmm.
They were artists.They were designers.
It was very interesting.
It was very inter architects,it was very interesting to see.
(36:27):
So,
you know, and thatjust helps, you know,
that just helpspromote the brand.
I mean, it's really, I trulybelieve in in word-of-mouth.
And and, you know,when you see somebody,
on the street wearing somethingdifferent and they have a
certain way about themor look about them,
(36:49):
you always take a double take.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep.
And how important is for forMaster and Dynamic social media?
We do our own socialwell, I'll tell you,
it's important.
(37:09):
We don't stress over it.
We we are very, veryfortunate that we get more,
again, through our collaborationswhen our partners who are much
bigger in sizes, have muchbigger falls when they post,
it's it's amazingshot in the arm.
Our social media is,
(37:30):
if you were to go on our onon at master nemic dot com
at master nemic onInstagram right now,
you would not seeany celebrities.
We don't usecelebrities as a rule.
We do have a lot of celebritiesand influencers and musicians
who wear our product.
If they're photographed,
we we thank them.
(37:53):
If,
if they post it, we thankthem, but we never repost.
We just, we treat it with,
you know you know, I thinkit's what I would call quiet luxury.
Be before there wasa term quiet luxury,
we were sort of just you know,
(38:14):
I think I think there's beena tipping point in fashion and
luxury where there's almostoverpromotion with celebrities.
And, we just don't wanna we just
that's not our thing.
We let our productspeak for itself.
I love that because to me,
it signals also a very strong selfconfidence of the of the brand.
And I feel sometimes when Isee brands that are overusing
(38:39):
celebrities or almost, like,depending on celebrities,
it, to me, in today's world,feels almost a bit like,
you know, you almostbeg for the acceptance,
or for for the celebrityto, to endorse you.
And that, for me, takes abit of way way of, like,
confidence of the brands.
(39:00):
I love that approach.
Maybe my my to concludeour our conversation,
I would be very curious wheredo you see the future of luxury?
And I know it's a bigquestion, but what are, like,
things that you see trends andand so on where you where you
think the future ofluxury is going to go?
I think,
(39:22):
I well, I mean, I'll go backto effort and discipline.
I think what you're gonna see is
is luxury brands,
(39:42):
probably creating,
higher you know, continuing to to pushhigher and higher in price points,
not to gouge the consumer,
but to just to create productsthat that of higher value,
and
probably
create fewer overall products.
(40:04):
Mhmm.
And I think that's
that's something I plan ondoing at Master and Dynamic.
You know, I don't wannafill landfills with with,
lots of, you know,headphones and and batteries.
I we care about that.
But I also think I I think,
(40:25):
we're at a tippingpoint in terms
of longevity, and Ithink people want,
you know, there's a lotof wealth in this world,
and you don't necessarily have to beextremely wealthy to be a luxury consumer.
But I think people
are gonna, there's a trend to wantingfewer but better things in your life.
(40:47):
Wonderful.
I think this is anamazing conclusion.
And, Jonathan, thank you so much forbeing on on this podcast and taking the
time out of your businessschedule to to be with us.
I thought it was afantastic conversation.
I learned a lot.
And Likewise. Likewise.
Yeah. Thank you.
And tomorrow, when I willbe on my next flight,
I will have these guys on again.
(41:08):
Alright. Safe travels, Daniel.Good speaking with you.
Yeah. Likewise.Bye bye. Bye bye.
Thank you so much,Jonathan. Bye bye.
Bye bye.
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