February 6, 2025 • 65 mins
In this podcast episode, Torsten Müller-Ötvös, the former CEO of Rolls Royce Motorcars, discusses his transformative journey in luxury automotive branding. He emphasizes the shift from traditional perceptions of car ownership to a focus on experiences and client engagement, particularly among younger, more diverse clientele. Torsten highlights the importance of storytelling in luxury branding and the need for bespoke offerings to enhance brand value. He reflects on the evolution of luxury towards a more human-centric approach, advocating for sustainability and holistic well-being in future luxury experiences. The conversation underscores the critical role of client centricity and effective training in delivering exceptional luxury service. Daniel Langer and Torsten Müller-Ötvös are offering joint luxury masterclasses worldwide on how to be successful with ultra-luxury clients and how to transform luxury brands to make them future-ready, combining their decades long expertise to provide luxury brands unmatched luxury insights. Reach out to Dr. Langer at dl@equitebrands.com and Torsten at tmo@tmo-cp.com.
Connect with him on daniellanger.digital and Instagram @drdaniellanger. If interested in luxury training opportunities please visit: clayton@equitebrands.com, jeff@equitebrands.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Welcome to the Futureof Luxury podcast,
where we explore the cuttingedge of the luxury industry
with the world'sleading authority, Dr.
Daniel Langer.
Dr.
Langer is the founderand CEO of Équité Brands,
the world's leading brandstrategy and activation firm
and professor of luxuryat Pepperdine University.
(00:29):
Join us as we dive into trendsshaping the future of luxury
from millennial and gen zinfluence to digital disruption
with unique perspectivesshared from the world's most
knowledgeableexperts in the field.
Brought to you byÉquité Intelligence,
the global leader in luxurystrategy and brand innovation.
This podcast is your backstagepass to the world of extreme
(00:52):
value creation andluxury's next big moves.
So without furtherado, Dr. Daniel Langer.
So it's my great pleasure to,
welcome to thisepisode of the podcast.
(01:14):
I have to say, Torsten,
I don't think that I saw saidthis personally to you yet,
but I have to sayan idol, of mine,
and, Thorsten Müller-Ötvös,
the former CEO of Rolls RoyceMotorcars, of obviously,
a company that doesn't evenneed an introduction and also
personality that, doesn'tneed an introduction.
(01:36):
And,
Totive
who was always themost consequent
(01:59):
in thinking not just aboutthe car, but, you know,
also in being verytransformative
in thinking about,
you know, not onlywhat luxury really is,
but what the storytelling behind
the the the brand, should be.
And, I I have usedquite often the
(02:20):
the example of,inspiring greatness,
that you created, withwith your team as, to me,
a best in classexample of how to
make something that alreadyis in a sense from a product
perspective, thepinnacle of luxury,
but also relevant and tangible.
How to make a transformationfrom the previous generation of
(02:43):
of owners who in many case,
where there's still atleast this was the myth,
a chauffeured in theircars to, you know,
people that really enjoythemselves driving such a
wonderful vehicle.
So it's my absolute pleasureto have you here today and,
discuss with you.
I think it's something that weare both very passionate about.
Actually, two topicsin at the same time.
(03:05):
One is luxury, and the saythe second is automotive.
So welcome.
Yeah.
Thank you very much, Daniel,
and thanks a lotfor your kind words,
but I can also replicate them ina way that I think you are
known as one of the big, luxurythought leaders worldwide.
So for that reason, I thoughtgreat to join your podcast,
(03:26):
and I'm very much lookingforward to our talks here.
Yeah. Wonderful.
And and, Torsten, maybedescribe a little bit
your, for for for everyonewho who knows you,
but maybe doesn't know allthe details of your career.
Maybe describe a little bit,in in a few words your career,
but also, you know,
maybe the transformation thatyou were able to initiate at
(03:49):
Rolls Royce.
Alright.
Couple of words.
I mean, I would consider myselfbeing a brand aficionado,
somebody who really understandsbranding, building brands,
revitalizing brands.
I was for a long, longtime with the BMW Group,
got the chance to revitalizeMINI at times and relaunch
MINI, and then waslater asked, I mean,
(04:13):
now nearly fifteenyears, sixteen years ago,
if I could imagine to take thehelm at Rolls Royce Motor Cars.
Oh, wow. Something, obviously,I didn't need to sleep on.
I mean, that brand is worldfamous, as you said, Daniel.
And it's a brand, by the way,
that is the expression ofluxury anyhow in itself.
Yeah.
Many use it as the TVor the Rolls Royce of TV
(04:36):
sets or the Rolls Royceof kitchens or whatever.
So when I came at times,and that was January twenty ten,
I found a brand, and,
the brand was already ownedby the BMW Group that was,
I would call it back at thepinnacle of automotive business.
Mhmm.
But probably not at levelswhere you see the brand today.
(04:57):
Because when I joined, thebrand was very much male,
nearly hundred percent male,
pretty much on apedestal pedestal,
so also perceived asarrogant, pretty conservative,
slightly old fashioned.
And, for thatreason, in my view,
(05:18):
a change was needed.
And what I did at times,
I interviewed a lot ofprivate banks when I joined
and just to find out moreabout our high net worth individuals.
And there was quite some surprisingoverlap in their opinion,
and that was they all predicteda pretty fundamental change in
the demographics andpsychographics of the ultra
(05:39):
high net worth individuals.
They would get far younger.
Money will be made in newways, different ways, digital,
new business venture,less inherited money,
far more females,
casual behaviors wouldbe name of the games,
and they all arehungry to enjoy life.
(06:00):
Spend the moneyand to enjoy life.
And, also, enjoy life is forme that hunger for experiences.
And to cut it short,
it came exactly as theypredicted in January and
February twenty ten when Iconducted all these interviews.
But for me also,
it became immediately obviousthat this would require a
fundamental change in thebrand positioning and product
(06:23):
strategy for RollsRoyce Motor Car.
So in a nutshell,major steps at times,
and during my time with RollsRoyce were that we did a
systematic change in ourclient relations posture.
So really lifting clientcentricity, Daniel,
to an outstanding level.
(06:43):
I'm I'm I'm fully convincedthat this is super important in
the luxury business,
that you are extremelyclose with your clients,
that you are basically readingtheir wishes before they even
know their wishes.
And, obviously, we alsochanged the brand identity,
and we put youmentioned it already.
We put inspiring greatness
(07:05):
into the core ofthat brand identity.
I mean, it's abig promise. Yeah.
Inspiring greatness becauseeverything you do needs to be
inspiring greatness.
But it worked extremely well,particularly funny enough with,
a younger clients.
And, that obviously then wecomplimented with a visual
identity that also embodiesthat house of luxury aesthetics.
(07:28):
Very important for me toget away from the typical
automotive atmosphere into thathouse of luxury aesthetics.
Then I'm a big believerin storytelling.
I think people are hungryfor Brian's stories.
So the whole press and commswork was shifted into what I
call a storytellingmachine over times.
(07:49):
And then, obviously,during my time,
we also changed the modelpolicy focusing on a far
younger and selfdriving clientele.
You said it.
When I joined, eighty percent of allclients were sitting in the back,
so being chauffeured.
And after I left, it wasexactly the opposite.
Eighty percent weresitting behind the wheel,
(08:10):
driving themselves, andtwenty percent in the back.
And that is also due to thefact that the clients became
very, very young over time.
Mhmm.
Changed average age at timesfrom fifty six when I joined,
average age, down forty toforty three when I left.
So it was a massiverejuvenating project,
(08:32):
that happened here overnearly fifteen years.
And I would say wewere also able to add,
the cool and must havefactor to the brand,
very important in particularwith social media.
So that was a great storyand a great journey,
I must say, obviously, notonly out of my own brain,
but together with my team.
(08:53):
But at times, really a fundamentalchange in the brand perception.
Wonderful.
And, you know, youalready mentioned
you already mentioned, whenwhen you spoke about the
clients, how the clients havebeen changing and and how
client expectationshave have changed.
Maybe let's elaborate alittle bit on on that,
(09:15):
and especially now if you think aboutthe last the last couple of years,
as you observe the clients andalso as I know that you have
been always very, veryclose to, to your clients,
how would you describe,you know, from,
if you if you take the errorthe error around maybe,
you know, the early twothousands and and maybe to the
(09:37):
transition to now,
if you speak about if we speakabout high net worth individuals,
what would be maybe a fewtangible things that that you
have observed that thatchanged in their behaviors,
in their aspirations?
I would say, Daniel, when letlet's say fifteen years ago,
in my perception, luxury was stillpretty much bling to call it like that.
(10:01):
Yeah. Very status oriented.
And, also, I call itoff the shelf. Yeah.
You were justshopping something.
And luxury brands were simply justa symbol of exclusivity and status.
And the more expensive, thehigher the status, basically.
Very easy, very simple.
(10:22):
And that has obviouslynot gone away,
but was enriched massivelyover time with things,
like importanceof craftsmanship,
importance of storytelling,
new levels ofcustomer centricity,
engaging clients, takingclients into a journey with
(10:44):
your brand, giving clientsthe chance to see behind the
curtain of your brand,
understanding how important sustainabilitywill be also for luxury brands.
Yeah. Offer unique experiences.
I think there is,in the meantime,
a strong wish by the clients,
ultra high net worthindividuals in particular,
(11:04):
to belong to the brand.
You are part of a family.
You are not just shopshopping something.
So the product itselfis still important,
but as much as importanttoday is all the services.
Everything you doaround for them,
everything you do interms of invitation,
giving them the chanceto tour the plants,
(11:25):
seeing how you manufacture,
telling stories aboutyour craftsmanship levels.
That has become soimportant over times.
And I would say most important,
and now I'm back to Rolls Royce,
is probably thedevelopment of bespoke.
So nobody any longer wantsto buy something off the
shelf that is somethingthat is no longer relevant.
(11:49):
Everybody wants to put theirown masterpiece together,
together with designers,together with a brand to say,
this is my special Rolls Royce.
I've crafted it. I've designedit. That carries my story.
Very, very important.
I dare to say thatwithout bespoke,
Rolls Royce wouldnot exist any longer.
(12:11):
Yeah. And this is thisis, this is fascinating.
And maybe let's let's let'sdive a little bit in into that,
because I think also forfor one of the the the,
to me, the projects that and andI think they were in in in the in
in the department that youcreated or in in the I think I
think you call it coach.
(12:31):
Is it was co is itcoach coach building?
Yeah. Coach build isthe pinnacle of bespoke.
And, Daniel, this obviouslythat was always in my dream,
shortly after I joined becauseI also read a lot about the
history of the brand.
And in former former times,the roaring twenties,
coach spelled name of the game.
Everybody designedhis own Rolls Royce,
(12:53):
so the chassis was deliveredby Rolls Royce Motorcars,
and then coach builders came anddesigned together with you the body.
That unfortunately wastechnical wise not any longer
possible, and my dream was oneday, I want to bring it back.
The reason behind itis a lot of, let's say,
legal constraints and,
legal requirements you need tofulfill with crash tests and
(13:16):
everything in the meantimein the automotive industry.
For that reason, Coachbuilt is,and we reinvented it at times,
really, the pinnacle ofbespoke by invitation,
of the CEO only.
So it is something that
a normal client or regular clientor somebody who is not, let's say,
(13:37):
already in the process withRolls Royce Motorcars for many
years would not get the offer.
You need to be a top top notchclient to get the offer to
participate in theCoachbuilt project.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I was I was,
I was very impressed by the byby some of these these, you know,
extraordinary projects that thatyou realized with with
(13:59):
Coachbuilt.
And to me, it was I had always thefeeling as an observer, of course,
that to me,
it was really like this rareopportunities where you could
really show the world somethingthat they've never seen before.
Yeah. Right.
I I feel how would you say thatthis also influenced the the
(14:20):
perception of of Rolls Royce?
You made a quite, I think,
a powerful statement beforewhere you said maybe Rolls
Royce without bespoke wouldnot exist anymore, today.
So how important would yousay were these these extraordinary
projects for the brand?
Extremely important becauseextraordinary projects are
marveled by the client, and thepress worldwide was in awe when
(14:43):
they saw it, obviously.
Yeah.
It is testament that youreally go extra miles, many,
many extra miles,and it underlines
all the investmentwe have put into,
bespoke because thatwas not an easy game.
That was changing production,
employing new skillsinto the company,
(15:05):
facilitating new ideasin design, and so on,
looking for new materials and newtechnologies to make that all happen.
Yeah.
So it is testament for whatI would call the normal
bespoke business that when youare a client who is not coach
building your Rolls Royce, youare bespoking your Rolls Royce,
you know that youare part of that
(15:28):
unbelievable dream that you canbuild your own car, your dream,
and that commission somethingthat is out of your brain.
So it was image wise,
very important alsoin a hello way for our
normal bread and butterbespoke business at times.
And then, obviously, it,
also created an unbelievablehype around, the pricing.
(15:52):
And we never talked inany way about the pricing,
of these cars, but thepress started to speculate.
Who is the owner.Twenty million.
We heard twentymillion and so on,
and we never commented on it.
So that also helpedto set price levels.
Mhmm.
(16:13):
Higher levels, it allowedthe brand to move up in a way
of unbelievable.
The most expensive car everbuilt came from Rolls Royce
Motorcars.
I mean, that is a testament,not from our side,
but by the press worldwide,which is gold standard.
And, obviously, particular fora luxury brand, gold standard.
(16:35):
Yeah.
For that reason, I think it was fundamentallyimportant to position the brand.
Yeah.
You know, you, it was itwas quite interesting,
and I think it's something that,
that, you don't knowyet, but it was very,
very early in my in my kind ofearly days is tapping into into
luxury when I started,
(16:55):
with a doctoral thesisin into the topic.
I had the idea of because II was always fascinated by by
pricing and by how howdo you price something.
And I had the idea to create,what I called the luxury index.
And this is basicallya way how to,
compare categories, with eachother in terms of pricing.
(17:15):
So in a in a sense,
it's it's a it's basically a proxyfor the luxuriousness in a category.
I'm taking the the kind of base productthat has the bare bone functionality.
So let's say, if wewould speak about shoes,
you would look ata category for,
is it the cheapest shoe and thekind of the most simple shoe
that that still allows you kindof to to walk with with your
(17:38):
feet protected, and then youtake the most extreme shoe.
And the most extreme,
in in a way of of what wasthe willingness of a customer
to pay the price.
And so we basically thethe most extreme and divided it
with the with the pricepoint of the cheapest one,
and then I compared,
(18:00):
hundred categorieswith each other.
Some categories are durables.
So they were like,cars, for example.
And then I was alsofascinating and said,
what if I look intocategories that are,
in a sense, let's call them perishableor that disappear, like, you know,
when you when you go to arestaurant and have a dinner or
when when you buy maybe abottle of wine and then,
(18:21):
you know, afterafter consumption,
the bottle is empty.
And and so then I was thinking,are there are there, correlations?
So can I say, basically,
maybe one categoryis is nondurable?
Maybe the the the luxuriousnessis somehow limited.
This this logic wouldwould suggest it.
And I found a couple of of,
(18:42):
really fascinating insights.
The first was it didn'tmatter whether durable or nondurable.
We found find really you know,
I think one of the theI I wrote a couple of articles
about that was a breakfastomelette that a hotel in New
York City was, was serving.
And this omelettewas originally,
sold for one thousand dollars,
(19:04):
making it the most expensiveomelette in the world.
And, and then youtake, let's say,
a breakfast omelette that youcan get in a coffee shop around
the corner, and thenyou make the mess.
And you see there's a there'sa huge delta in value creation
between that, extremeomelette and the normal one.
And then I looked into alsothe car category and looked at that
(19:24):
time what was themost expensive car,
which I believe andthis was around,
I think we spoke speakaround two thousand eight,
two thousand nine.
I think it wasprobably the Bugatti,
the Bugatti Veyron at that time.
Bugatti Veyron. Yeah. Right.
And, and so and then we we wecompare that with the with the
cheapest car, money can buy,which at that time, I think,
(19:46):
was the Tata, I think, theTata Nano, on on the market.
And, and you got to quiteinteresting, results.
And one of the results wasthat actually and this was core
quick quick correlate itbetween the omelette and cars.
I saw the omelette categorycould actually be pricier if I
(20:07):
compare this withsome other categories.
And also cars were interestingly
low in terms of price.
And at that time,
we spoke about a Bugatti Veyronfor about I think it was a
million a millioneuros or roughly.
And I remember,being interviewed by,
Automotive and Sport by by theGerman car magazine at that time,
(20:29):
and I made a provocativestatement and said the most
expensive cars are too cheap.
And I remember beingroasted, then afterwards,
I said this this, idiot,
cars are already too expensiveand then comes this this luxury
researcher and says carsshould be more expensive.
And I run the numbers and,
I thought at that timejust comparing categories.
(20:50):
So for example, now you take thehandbag category or you take shoe
categories and so on.
I I was saying if I applyjust the same logic of how
much luxury value was createdin other categories in a
relative term, cars couldbe be priced up to about
hundred million dollars.
This was kind of whatthe maths was saying.
(21:11):
And so and then I I I publisheda couple of articles saying
there should be a twenty or thirtyor fifty million dollar car.
But the the the the the thingis someone has to figure out
how to do it.
And, even if there's maybe noofficial comment on what those
coach building cars cost.
But I think you wentrelatively close to to that,
(21:34):
at least to that dimensions.
And that for me was really, youknow, I I was very, in a sense,
very proud of of whatyou you guys were doing,
there at at Rolls Royce becauseit showed that if you apply the
right storytelling, ifyou apply the right,
how to say that, also theright, creativity, ingenuity,
(21:55):
and also the right inspiration,
you actually can can buildproducts that create so much
value that people actuallypay for for those values.
Although, maybe for millions of peoplethat seems to be absorb price points,
but if the story isright for that one person
who you now create somethingtruly personal and unique,
(22:18):
it's absolutely worththat price point.
I I I fully agree, Daniel.
I I would also addthat, obviously,
clients today in the luxurysegment are pretty savvy pretty
savvy about product substance.
They understand what dothey buy for the money,
and they want to understandwhat do they buy for the money.
So coming back to youromelette point of,
(22:39):
two thousand or whateverthe omelette was,
I must I must say,
there must be somethingsuperb behind it in terms of
storytelling or some otheradditional services that make
these omelettes so perfect thatyou are prepared to pay the price.
I I think the biggest dangerfor luxury brands currently
(23:00):
is a kind of overpromiseand underdeliver.
Yeah.
And, just to say, we canask for skyrocketing prices.
And then later, when you look intothe substance and when you look
into what you really buy andwhat kind of, sorry to say,
cache image you are buying,
you scratch your headand you think, no, guys.
(23:21):
That's no longer,in my view, just
Substance is not great.
The value is notreally in the product.
And that is something that, inmy view, has changed massively.
That was at your timewhen you did your service.
(23:41):
That was fifteen,twenty years ago.
There, I think and that is why Imentioned bling was important for people.
The brand logo in itselfcarried so much power that it
didn't matter whatthe substance was.
The main thing wasI own this brand.
And that is now notlonger possible in my way.
(24:04):
You have very educated,highly skilled people,
particularly socialmedia made a lot out,
about what is the truesubstance behind the brand.
What are you really buying?
What do you you invest
five, six million into a RollsRoyce or whatever the number is.
And, I think rightly so.
(24:25):
And if you don't observe thatand if you don't follow that
kind of intelligence,
then you might end up inoverpromise and under deliver.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think thisis something that,
right now, if we lookat the, you know,
the the current state of ofthe luxury industry, you know,
heading heading now into,this this new year, you know,
(24:45):
the the the last Bainstudy, came in, you know,
a few weeks ago.
And and to me, it was almostlike a wake up call for for
the industry becausethe the what what Bain,
identified was thatabout half of luxury
customers, that they that they,
surveyed were saying luxury brandsas a kind of general
(25:08):
statement are overpriced.
And, this is somethingthat, in, you know,
all my years as anobserver and and, also,
since I participatein this industry,
I've never seen numberslike like that. Yes.
Luxury has never been perceivedas, you know, cheap, so to speak.
(25:28):
But that fifty percent ofpotential customers say that
certain brands are overpricedgoes exactly in the direction
that that you are saying.
And I think that a mistakethat has been done in the last
probably two, three years alsoafter the pandemic when also,
you know, demand, was wasstarting to skyrocket.
Opening.
I I have the feeling thatwe have probably simply some
(25:51):
brands that, that said took andI use now the word on purpose,
maybe a little bitadvantage of the clients,
and of the demandand said, okay.
We can we increase pricebecause we can to a point where
people say, okay.
If I don't understand,like, what you just said,
the value proposition,
if I don't understandwhy I should
(26:11):
pay the money, they'renot going to do that.
And I think this isalso something and I would be
curious about your yourexperience on that because you
have been probablycloser to many,
high net worth individualsthan probably most other luxury
executives as you hadbeen very very you know,
in all your travels, you'vealways met Pete with so on.
I I I'm I'm pretty sure thatyou probably never ever met
(26:34):
anyone who would want towaste your their money.
They they all want toknow what what Guess what?
The reason why theyare so, let's say,
successful and why theyare ultra high net worth
individuals are is because they'reextremely smart with money.
And, for that reason,
they clearly understand whatsubstance means to them,
(26:55):
and they also havelong lasting memory.
If they feel cheated by abrand, they will never forget,
I can tell you. And,this will bite you later.
Some brands, as yourightly said, Daniel,
made a kind of profit,
after the pandemic time by
unreasonably raising pricesbecause demand was given.
(27:18):
But, that was a very shortnotice strategy in my view and
completely neglected thatclients are intelligent.
And they are shrewd to use that,
expression in a positivemeant way and that,
they would not be fooled byanythings you are doing with them.
So and that is now a kindof period where all the
(27:42):
brands who overdid it arenow retuning and readjusting
Mhmm.
On or back to levels whereI would say substance,
brand image, and priceis back into a balance.
And that obviously brings manyanalysts and many observers
into that feeling that,oh, luxury is dead.
(28:04):
Luxury isn't a problem.
And, the luxury brands,
stock markets, tanks withluxury brands, and so on.
Yeah.
Rightly so. Because, again,an overpromise at times. Yeah.
Now they under deliver.
Yeah.
It's in the end, it's alwaysfascinating because, you know,
in the end, it'snot rocket science.
(28:24):
If if, the value to to me inin luck luxury is always about
extreme value, and aslong as brands are able,
to deliver extreme value,
then there will be clients thatare willing to to value the
value and then to alsopay, the price points.
But if they feel,they're not getting,
(28:46):
what people areasked to pay for,
then it's very natural.
Then it feels it feels,it feels overpriced.
It reminds me a little bit,for example, in when I advise,
hospitality brands.
One thing that I seesometimes, you know, traveling,
is you always I would say,
in most cases, you forget howmuch you paid for the hotel room.
(29:08):
And, you know, if NewYork City, for example,
or now to today,I'm I'm in Shanghai.
Yes.
It's it's it's natural that youpay a few hundred dollars for
for for a room.
Room.
But don't charge me ten dollarsfor the the bottle of water
because, you know, we know howmuch a bottle of water cost.
So if, and then we have experiencesin other hotels where maybe the
(29:30):
bottle of wateris complimentary.
And now I go to onehotel where suddenly it's just ten dollars,
and then as I said, really?
And these are the these are thethings I think where so much
many mistakes aredone by, being, yeah,
by not delivering value,but then charging for it.
And these are, as you said,
people things thatpeople will never forget.
No. I mean, that'sPennywise but pound foolish.
(29:52):
That's for sure. Yeah.
And us also on top came andmaybe going back to that
period where the whole marketwas in full swing that many
brands, neglected,
also that I callit now scarcity,
theme, which is highly, highlyimportant for luxury brands.
(30:13):
So the more you pushvolume into the market,
the less attractiveit is for many,
many clients toacquire your brand.
And that was also happeningright after the pandemic.
People flooded the shops with,
all the brands floodedthe shops with,
stuff.
And, I think alwayskeep your brand rare
(30:37):
and, live up to, yeah,
the promise ofscarcity and luxury.
Yeah.
I want to go get back tosomething that you said a
little bit earlier inin our conversation.
The the impressive,
the impressive rejuvenationthat you managed to to bring
into to, Rolls Royce motor cars.
(30:58):
And I part of this rejuvenation,
of course, was a transitionof the portfolio,
with the launch of Cullinan and andSpectra under under your leadership.
And I I would I would love to talkto you a little bit about, you know,
this the how you were able tobring Inspire greatness and and
the idea around this intothe launches of of both,
(31:21):
of both brands.
And, I have to say,
I found personally also whenwhen I observed the launch of
Cullinan, to me, it was reallya best in class best in class
example of a of a line orportfolio extension because I I
would imagine that,
the challenges for Cullinan werequite were quite significant.
(31:43):
And this could have been aproject that could have also
broken the company if it'snot executed in the right way.
So maybe if you could sharea little bit the the personal
learnings of of thatlaunch and what were, like,
kind of critical factorsto to help customers
that probably one we'renot even you know,
(32:04):
I assume a lot of Cullodencustomers were not even Rolls
Royce customers before.
So So maybe customers who knewthe brand but never really
experienced the brand.
How do you bring the yeah.
Let's let's let's use the word,
the story of the brand tosomeone who never saw the brand.
Yeah. Very good point.I mean, rightly so.
As you said, it was somethingwhere during my time,
(32:28):
we took a long time to reallydevelop the right product.
That is true for Cullinan,but also was true for Spectre,
the electric Rolls Royce.
Both products
are controversial and werehighly controversial in the
beginning when first ideas,us mulling plans about it
leaked into the press.
(32:49):
Oh, is this really possible?
I mean, nobody would say no ifyou offer a convertible or a
coupe or a lovely limousine.
That is the naturalturf for motor cars,
but an SUV at timesdefinitely wasn't.
Mhmm.
So what we did and now Icome to a point which I personally
think is super important,and that is storytelling.
(33:10):
If you don't investigate
a certain rationale behindthe product and a link between
product and brand,And we have done it.
And guess what?
We found a very interestingand marvelous story,
and the story isLawrence of Arabia.
And Lawrence of Arabiaused to drive together with
(33:33):
his, army armored RollsRoyces through the deserts.
And, that was a fantastic story.
And these Rolls Royces wereso reliable that he said
the Rolls Royce in the desert is moreworse and more valuable than rubies.
And, this is, a common say,
and we started todevelop that story.
(33:54):
And we told everybody thatthere is big credential in us
doing it because, formally,a Rolls Royce was everywhere,
even in the deserts with ruins ofArabia or in the outbacks of Australia.
So the cars wereextremely capable always.
That was the historyof the brand.
So an SUV is a kind of naturaldevelopment in that area.
(34:16):
So that went downextremely well.
Then on top came what I call amarvelous story around the naming.
Cullinan, the largest everfound raw diamond in the world,
sits in the crownjewels of, her majesty
in the UK.
And all that in conjunctionwith the authenticity of, yes,
(34:37):
we can go off road andwe can go everywhere,
made it easy to find somethingthat was very, very convincing.
And then, obviously, we alsogot the design pretty right.
I would say in the beginning,
it was truly a Rolls Roycebecause one thing I also
believe is nevergive up your soul.
Never give up underyour credentials.
(34:57):
It needed to be a Rolls Royce.
A Rolls Royce firstand an SUV second.
And that means magic carpetride also needs to happen in a
Rolls Royce SUV Cullinan.
Everything you are used tois also happening in a Cullinan.
In a row it's usedto from a restaurant.
So that in the end opened up new
(35:22):
garages for people whoobserved us for quite some time
and also said, I guess not yet.
I'm too young.
Maybe in ten, fifteen years,
I'm in for a RollsRoyce or whatever.
And Kalinin changedmassively that
perception that this issuddenly something that is the
number one car inthe, in the garage.
(35:43):
And, a car that wasused for all, let's say,
travel alternatives,school runs,
going down to the yardharbor with the family,
using the car as your numberone car in the household that
is also highly unconventionaland was very unconventional for
us at times because clients inthe segment of Rolls Royce is
(36:06):
normally do have seven, eight,
nine cars in the
at least.
So for every certainpurpose, a special car.
And we were able to push otherSUVs out of the garage and
to enter with Cullinan.
And that was important forus that we are we are not
cannibalizing theexisting model range,
but we wanted to lookout for new clients,
(36:29):
clients who never hadever before in their life,
the Rolls Royce in the garage.
Yeah.
I I think,
here I can just say also againfrom from a personal experience.
I have a friend who, whobought a Cullinan, and,
he he also told me that thethis idea of inspire greatness
(36:49):
is something that he feelsevery time when he he goes into
to the he's a very easy alsovery successful entrepreneur.
But so it's for him almosta reminder every day,
of that he has todeliver greatness.
So also a great link.
And I I remember alsothat, and and also, again,
kudos to that.
When when you launched Kalinin,there was there were also,
(37:10):
like I think you had acollaboration with National
Geographic.
I remember there were some somevideo that they showed that
showed the car in this,in this mission, I think.
And then there was, like,a long video, almost, like,
seventeen minutes or so.
Yeah.
We had different sequences of videoswhere the car two had basically
superb off roadareas in the world.
(37:32):
Yeah.
In the sets, in theScottish Highlands,
all over in Australia,in the Outbacks.
Hundred percent. Wellremembered, Daniel.
You're right.
That was I would call it a geniusmarketing story as well, yeah,
and gave the car massivecredibility that it was
possible to really do what wepromised the car would deliver.
(37:55):
Mhmm. Yeah.
And I I remember I've, I I'veshown that video to some of my,
marketing students in inmy luxury MBA classes.
And I would say, Unisono,
the the the feedback was afterthey they were were tortured,
I have to say,because, you know,
it was the attentionspan today of,
of of of Gen z's thattypically are six seconds.
(38:18):
And you give them a say seventeenminute video to, to watch.
Almost everyone afterwards said whenthe video came to the end,
said, I want this car.
And that for me was, you know,a remarkable testament how,
as you said before, howcritical storytelling is,
but also how criticalalmost, like, to me,
(38:38):
this that that videoparticularly was was really
giving in in so manydifferent dimension, a logic,
and a reason whysomeone needed that car.
And but without withoutbasically begging for that.
Just there was like a therewas like a, yeah, to me,
it just an a naturalnessand effortlessness,
(38:58):
to to that, and and still, it wassomething very, very convincing.
And, you know, so manyother, car videos or so,
I don't even remember.
But this was one where Ithought it's so it was so
unusual and so, I would say,
also bold in in away how it was done.
(39:19):
And I think, correct me,
but I think that thethe the entire launch campaign also,
and and this to me alsowas even revolution,
like, a revolution in theautomotive space was mainly
digital, if I remember well.
Hundred percent. Yeah.
It's anyhow thatwe and at my time,
mainly went digital because,it is highly cost effective
(39:43):
And, it's something obviously,
we also had events with clientsworldwide because I'm a true
believer that, you need to,
throw quite a lot of events andexperiences with your client,
you'll end yourupcoming prospects.
That was also where we investedsubstantial money into,
but the rest was all into,let's say, as you say,
(40:04):
social media and digital,channels all over the world.
Yeah.
In speaking about events, thatbrings me, I think, to another,
critical, I would successfact and critical topic in in
luxury, the experience.
And, you know,
I personally and thisis probably because
I'm I'm personally not yeta client of Rolls Royce.
(40:27):
So I'm I'm a client of someother brands that most people
would would call probablyluxury car brands.
But I have to say that forme in in luxury automotive,
maybe one of the Achillesheel can often be the customer
experience, especially in thisindirect model that so many,
brands are dependent on whereyou have dealership and we all
(40:49):
know some arebetter than others.
And I'm always seem to be thethe unlucky one that get the
bad dealers, so tospeak, wherever I am too.
Yeah.
But but talk a little bit aboutthe the dealership experience
because I I I know from my own,
from from my ownhistory with car brands,
whenever I brokeup with a brand,
(41:10):
it was always because of the ofsomething that happened in the
dealership experience.
Serviced all. Later. And veryoften, as you said, service.
You know, you you arrive theservice place and you have an
appointment, and thenthey tell you, no.
You don't have an appointment.
It's silly things that in the endlet this experience break down.
So I would be be curiousbecause I can imagine that you
(41:31):
had faced exactlythe same challenges.
What were what were things thatyou particularly paid attention to?
What would you mayberecommend others to to do?
What what are kind of the thethe ingredients to make the
client experience at at thedealership or the point of sale
in general extraordinary?
(41:52):
I mean, just to put it simple,I would say training, training,
training, training.
That is actually obviously,
you need to develop atraining that teaches people
how to behave in the luxuryatmosphere and how to deal with
these very discerning clients.
What do you need to do?
(42:12):
So we developed,
during my time, a program,
that was teaching basicallyeverybody in Goodwood in our
worldwide partner networkshow to deal with clients.
And that is obviouslysomething where you can't rest.
(42:32):
You need to do that constantly.
And you also need to select the rightpeople who are offering the services.
Not everybody iscapable to talk to
the clients in the way how youwant them to talk to the clients.
And I think you also need tomake decision who is fronting
clients and who isnot fronting clients.
(42:53):
Because the one who's frontingclients definitely needs
the feeling and needs thecapabilities to speak with
clients on eye level and needsto read all the wishes from
their eyes whilespeaking to them.
That's what theyall expect from you.
If you fail, you have aproblem. I can't agree more.
(43:14):
For that reason, that is theAchilles heel, as you said.
And if you are not trainingyour Achilles heel regularly,
it might break, andthen you have a problem.
Yeah.
So I also think that it is andyou see that with many brands.
They all invest into brick andmortar shops, shops, shops.
(43:34):
But that's easy.
And, what not what is not easy isto find and train the right people
who interact onhighest levels and,
to find them is difficult.
So I think as a luxury brand,
it requires that youare permanently on
your toes, permanently,
(43:55):
and that you are reachingout for new experiences,
that you are training yourpeople constantly on new
levels, new ideas, and fascinatingways to impress the client.
If you don't do that and if andnow it comes that's my final point.
You also need to payyour people properly
because you need goodpeople to do that.
And if you're notprepared to pay,
(44:17):
you won't get theright level of people.
But this service is crucial.
It's for me the neck breakerfor luxury if it isn't executed
in a proper way.
Yeah. Yeah. I I can'tI can't agree more.
And, you know, that makes me alsoso enthusiastic that we will also
do master classes together.
Yeah. I'm very much lookingforward to that. Yeah.
(44:37):
And I think we havea lot to teach here,
some other luxury brands whomight want to get a bit of
guidance here alsofrom our side.
What is important when itcomes to service levels?
How do you wanna?
What do we need to say, how dowe teach the people, and so on.
And I think we both have lotsof knowledge around that.
Yeah. Yeah.
(44:57):
I think it's it's it's going to be it'sgoing to be very, very, very exciting.
And it it's it's it's so whatyou said also resonated so much
with me because sometimes, you know, whenI I I did a lot of,
over the last coupleof of of of years,
but specifically in in inthe last maybe six, seven months,
a lot of trainings, forexample, in in hospitality or,
you know, when takehot luxury hospitality,
(45:19):
branded residences, and so on.
And so very,
investment heavy categories wheresometimes companies spend on one property,
sometimes billions when you takehuge huge real estate developments.
And then, you know,
the one thing thatalmost flabbergast me is
there's no problem to spenda billion in real estate.
(45:41):
But then all the factorsthat you just mentioned,
paying the staff thatthen delivers the,
the to the client,paying them properly,
putting the right incentivesystems in place that are not
focusing on, onsomething transactional,
but focusing actually onthe client experience,
really thinking strategicallyon how to incentivize that.
(46:03):
But then also eveneven trainings,
the discussion that thensometimes are about training
budgets, somewherewhere, again, you know,
unbelievable amount of of ofmoney is spent on the hardware,
and then you have a, let'ssay, a beautiful palace.
But within thatbeautiful palace,
there is basicallyno no content,
(46:24):
in there or no soul to to to to usethe word that you said said before.
And and that is basicallydestroying so many things that
could otherwise be mind blowing.
It takes something mind blowingto something that is, you know,
just maybe a a a far cryfrom from its potential.
Hundred percent. Ican't agree more.
(46:45):
And, unfortunately,
that is people very often orbrands very often think brick
and mortar is safe.
It's a good investment.
Whilst training is not agood investment because our people
might leave us tomorrow.
I think that is very,
very wrong in its opinionbecause well trained people and
also well paid people willstay extremely loyal to you
(47:08):
because they enjoyworking for you,
because you have put effortinto them and you have trained
them, and theywill pay that back.
I'm I'm I'm I'm veryconvinced about it.
At my times at Rolls Royce,
we opened so called privateoffices worldwide because not
everybody could travel to Goodwoodto see it all with their own eyes.
So we opened,
(47:30):
private offices in, all majorcapital cities in the world,
and, we invested here as well,
heavy into training and heavyinto how to interact with people.
And I can tell you, when I left,
ninety five percent of thepeople in the private offices
were still the people we,
employed at times whenwe generated the idea.
(47:52):
So, I'm a true believer thatinvestment in people pays back
in a very positiveway for your brand.
Yeah.
And I'm also I'm, yeah, I'm I'mI'm also convinced that, that,
if someone basicallyalso feels in the end,
it comes everything we arediscussing comes back to
how can we create value and howcan we make someone feel valued.
(48:15):
So and this is basically theperspective of the client that,
you know, when theywalk, let's say,
to a car dealership or towhat you just described,
the private office,that they feel valued,
but it's also the employee.
Because if they getthe right training,
if they get basically the right
support system at at the hand,if and if they are basically,
(48:37):
get the right structure, then alsothey as as a person can develop.
So it's basically if I thinkif if luxury is done right,
to me is is actually the mostexciting category to be in
because then it'sit's it creates, like,
an ecosystem of value wherefrom the client to to everyone
involved, value is created.
(48:59):
And if it's not done right,
then it goes back towhat you said earlier,
when when you talk abouttalked about, you know,
brands not deliveringon their promise,
then it's just aa beautiful frame
without any withoutanything in that frame.
And then this frameis going to collapse.
People are not going to stay.
Customers customers are notgoing to believe in it and then
(49:21):
going to run away.
I think in the luxury business,you need to be a perfectionist.
I'm a perfectionist.
That's also why I love thatbusiness because you suddenly
need to go extra miles.
And something thatwas right today
is not any longer right thenext day for the client.
That also brings me back topoints like events, yeah,
(49:42):
Daniel, and,irritations for clients.
So if you had, let's say,
good experiences with a kindof event format this year,
don't bet on thatfor the next year.
Next year is next year, andyou need to develop new ideas,
new things toattract your clients.
All the clients at high endsector have invitations from
(50:02):
many, many other brands,
and they have the chanceto constantly compare.
And many peopledon't think about it,
that your clients
are flooded with many ideasfrom other luxury brands.
So you need to be onyour toes to be always
ahead of the curve and to findnew ways to attract them and to
(50:23):
enthuse your clients.
I think one thing thatimpressed me always is,
that you are probably fromfrom all the the from from
most of the leaders in in thein the automotive industry and
potentially even in theluxury industry at large,
probably the one that spendmost time with one on one,
(50:44):
with with clients.
Maybe share a little bityour your insights there,
how how important this thispersonal touch and this
personal time is for the client,
also for you inspiringyourself in in your day to day.
I would say, Daniel,that was my lifeblood.
So, that gave me
(51:05):
the thought andgave me the ideas.
What I did, and I traveled alot whenever I was on travels,
we invited ten tofifteen clients,
couples, for a beautifullovely evening dinner,
and we chatted everything.
We chatted business. Wedidn't chat automotive.
We chatted business.
We chatted what's going oncurrently in the country,
(51:28):
what is important.
And, also, for me, amazingto hear what other luxury brands
they favor, for whatreason do they favor them,
and what was their latest andgreatest experience with other
brands, and that gaveme superb insights.
And I would consider myselfas really pretty savvy in
(51:48):
understanding the clientele.
And, I mean, after fourteenyears and at least two travels
each month, I've seenquite a lot of clients.
I wouldn't say I know every singleclient within Rolls Royce Motorcars,
but the organization definitelyknows every single client.
One of my core beliefs at timeswhen I joined was if when the
(52:10):
client is the king and theclient is the king because only
the client brings themoney, nobody else,
then we are serving thatking and that is the client.
And for that reason, I wantedthat all people ideally get as
much contact withclients as possible.
So we allowed clients tosee a production line to
(52:31):
really look over theshoulders of the clients and,
to talk with them and toto really interact with
them, to hear it fromthe horse's mouth
Yeah. Things need to be perfect.
And, and the reason theyare marveling Rolls Royce
(52:52):
is perfection inevery single detail.
And when you hearthat from a client,
then you have a completedifferent attitude and mindset
suddenly than somebody whojust started training on that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. This isthis is, fantastic.
And this leads meto to, you know,
probably anotherchallenge that many luxury
(53:12):
brands will will,are facing today,
and this is thedifferences in culture.
And I can imagine, youknow, on on your travels,
and similar to toto me, right now,
but also traveling almostevery week some somewhere,
it it is so remarkable howdifferent every region in in
(53:32):
the world is, every every place.
And then even within countries,you know, sometimes we speak,
even in, in general termsabout a country like China.
And then sometimes weforget that in China,
we have more than a hundred andforty cities of over a million
top billion people.
And sometimes I haveto when people say, oh,
so just a tier four city.
Yeah. Come on.
(53:53):
A tier four city is biggerthan the biggest cities in some well
known in some wellknown countries.
So it's it's it'sit's interesting.
And and so for forhow would you say
or what are maybe criticalsuccess factors for for luxury
brands when it comes
to serving customers all overthe world where there's so many
(54:16):
different expectations,
different rituals,different ways of,
utilizing products,sometimes even, you know,
different tastes.
I can imagine especiallywhen it comes to cars,
there's so manydifferent tastes.
You know?
If I look at, forexample, Japan,
(54:36):
Middle East, the Americas,you know, Germany,
and and so on.
Hundred percent.Hundred percent.
I mean, I mean,for me personally,
it's extremely importantthat you adapt to,
local or countryspecific cultures,
that you also spend time in thecountry to better understand
(54:56):
why clients are choosingthis and not choosing that.
Bespoke, I said it acouple of times now in our,
little podcast here is isfor me very, very important.
And Bespoke gave us all theopportunities, obviously,
to cater for each individualtaste pattern and to do
whatever clients were asking usthey wanted to see commissioned
(55:20):
in their restaurants.
So on top comes, I thinkthat you also need to make an
effort that youengage more with,
maybe local other brands, other
luxury brands, local onesthat you are starting to
cooperate maybe alsoin countries with
local brands thatyou make an effort to
(55:43):
position your brand as eyeopened to other foreign cultures.
And I think thatis super important,
particularly for youngergenerations out of those countries.
It is importantthat western brands
are at least making an effortto adapt to local cultures
and to make an effort toget a certain I call it now
(56:07):
Chinese cliche as well intotheir brand proposition in
China, which isartificial, which
needs to be authentic.
But, obviously, you make an effortto adapt yourself to a local culture.
Yeah.
Maybe maybe one or twomore more more questions because
this has been such afascinating such a fascinating
(56:29):
discussion with so many wherewe already have so many,
insights that that,that you shared.
If you basically reflect on onyour tenure at at Rolls Royce,
when you think about maybeyour personal learnings about
luxury, but also interms of leadership,
and some you have in in the differentquestions already referred to.
(56:49):
But what were in inyour point of view,
when you think about whatyou know today about luxury,
and maybe what were your assumptiongoing into the into those roles?
What were maybe the mostsignificant personal learnings,
and what can can you sharemaybe to others who aspire to
become leaders in inthe luxury, world?
(57:11):
I mean, it is not easy to putthat into a nutshell that takes
hour to talk about that whatneeded to really get into,
the luxury segment.
But I would say one ofmy fundamental learnings
is client centricity.
And, client centricity in away that the client is not
only in your mind, the clientis constantly at your heart.
(57:35):
And that is something what youneed to live and what you also
need to showcase to yourown people every day,
every single minute thatonly the client counts,
nothing else.
And that is, I think, extremelycrucial in the luxury sector.
Extremely crucial.Learning number one.
Number two isbespoke, in my view,
(57:55):
is crucial because luxury todayisn't any longer off the shelf.
You need to give clientsthe chance to interact,
to be part of the brand,
also to give them the chanceto put their own taste
patterns into the brand and tofulfill own dreams with the brand.
And then you mentioned it.I mentioned it storytelling.
(58:17):
I mean,
many brands don't make aneffort to reflect on what great
stories they couldpotentially tell.
Me, personally, I think when youmake the effort and when you really
delve into history and whenyou delve into how you build
product and so on,
there are lots of storiesyour clients will be interested in.
Wonderful.
(58:37):
And maybe one one lastone last question is,
if you reflect on it's it'skind of funny to just use the
word reflect on the future.
But if if if you kind of,
think a little bit about wherefor you the future of luxury is
from from what you've seen, youalready spoke about, you know,
(58:58):
coming from maybe the world oflet's call it maybe a little
bit of more superficialluxury, the bling bling,
towards maybe a worldof more content today,
of more relevance.
You also spoke aboutbeing part of something,
so the community aspect.
So we're moving we're movingfrom from from product
to to creating value for the
(59:21):
client as a whole.
So if we now go another tenyears or twenty years into the
future, where wouldyou say would be
one or two things thatyou expect to become much more
relevant in the futurethan they are today?
I would say probablysustainability,
ethical practices, more andmore important in future.
(59:44):
Digital innovationis super important,
not only usingadvanced technology,
but also what I would call aseamless omnichannel experience.
We talked alreadyabout customization and
personalization that is goingup to new levels in future.
I'm pretty convinced about it.
Cultural relevance, wetalked a minute ago.
(01:00:05):
So put local insightsinto your brand.
Generate an authenticstorytelling.
What makes you great in China?
Why is your brides relevant forChina just to stick with China
now or Middle East or whatever.
Health and wellness issomething I'm personally
extremely convinced, aboutis something that plays a
(01:00:26):
role in future.
That holistic well-being approach,the wellness integration,
incorporating wellness elementsinto your product design,
all that becomesimportant in my view.
And then, obviously, Isaid in the beginning,
the whole social responsibilitything, community engagement,
inclusive inclusivity,diversity,
(01:00:48):
very, very important for luxury.
All these facets obviouslyneeds need to be played in a
luxury way.
And,
quite some ideas in my mind howthat could all be done, but,
that could be now a podcastfor the next eight hours.
Yeah. Wonderful. So so no.This was this was was great.
(01:01:08):
And, you know, just reflecting whileyou were you were giving those those
points in a very precise way,you know, from sustainability,
you spoke about digitalcustomization, personalization,
the culturalrelevance, authentic storytelling.
And then then, you know,
what really resonated withme was this idea of health,
wellness, theholistic well-being.
(01:01:30):
So in a sense, we can reallysee if if we maybe maybe put
this holistic well-being almostlike the ultimate the ultimate
goal, to go,
there's really a transitionthat a fundamental transition
that has been happeningand will happen.
And I don't want to say awayfrom product because one of the
things you just mentionedwas more an integration into
(01:01:53):
Absolutely.
I should think maybeless in a way, of,
maybe less in a in atraditional engineering way
where it is all about, you know,
kind of taming the machineand making making things,
making things maybe asperfect as possible.
But in a sense, thinkingabout the human and thinking,
(01:02:16):
how can we make the enrich thelife of the human through our
products, through our servicesin in the best possible way.
And but thinking about thisin a non compromising way because
all of the things youmentioned, you know,
from sustainability to culturalrelevance personalization
fundamentally says wehave to put the human
at the center, and we have tomake something very humanistic.
(01:02:39):
And so,
from from what I observed in ourconversation is fundamentally,
we have to speak thinkabout luxury and the transition of
luxury from a maybevery product centric
approach twenty, thirty, fiftyyears ago to a very human
centric approach betweennow and the next ten,
(01:03:02):
twenty, thirty years.
And that I also understandit it will be, Daniel,
it will be an extremelyholistic approach that is
needed in future, which is notonly reflecting, let's say,
the product initself that is given.
The product needs tobe great and perfect,
but it is not sufficient.
You need to have agreat service level.
You need to have fantasticclient interaction.
(01:03:23):
And you read need toread your clients.
And your clients areconstantly on the run,
and they have constantlynew ideas, ambitious.
I just mentioned a couple ofthem where I think they will
become highlyrelevant in future.
So you need todevelop, I call it,
an ecosystem for your luxurybrand that really reflects on
all different areas that areimportant in future for the
(01:03:46):
client because theclient is the king,
and the client is theone who buys your brand.
Yeah.
And this means also that inin a sense to to build that
ecosystem, we needto also think in a
completely differentway about skills,
in a completely differentway about the the approaches.
And it also makes me soenthusiastic about, you know,
(01:04:07):
what we want to do together,
because this isthese are things that
we will be able to provideto organizations to look into
those kind of skills toprepare organizations
in this transition from wherethey are today into what the
customers of the futurewhat the future Actually,
what is what is what is reallyneeded to elevate your brand?
(01:04:30):
If the strategy should be,
let's try to elevate the brandinto even further levels and
higher levels, then, obviously,
you need to understand thecodes for that and what is
needed to make that happen.
And I think
that's it, Daniel.
Yeah. Super. Wonderful.
So, Thorsten, thank you somuch for for your time today.
(01:04:52):
That was an pleasure.
And,
yeah, and I think thisthis is one of the,
I think will be one of thehighlights of of the podcast series.
Thank you really for,you know, sharing,
with everyone yourinvaluable insights,
your story, thelearnings on on the way.
And we will share we will sharealso your contacts in the in in
(01:05:14):
the show notes so that everyonewho wants to contact you knows
how to to reach you.
So thank you once again.
Perfect. Lovely.
Now thank you, Daniel, and,
looking forward seeing you soon.
Yeah. Thank you.
Welcome to the Futureof Luxury podcast,
where we explore the cuttingedge of the luxury industry
with the world'sleading authority, Dr.
Daniel Langer.
Dr.
Langer is the founderand CEO of Équité Brands,
the world's leading brandstrategy and activation firm
and professor of luxuryat Pepperdine University.
(00:29):
Join us as we dive into trendsshaping the future of luxury
from millennial and gen zinfluence to digital disruption
with unique perspectivesshared from the world's most
knowledgeableexperts in the field.
Brought to you byÉquité Intelligence,
the global leader in luxurystrategy and brand innovation.
This podcast is your backstagepass to the world of extreme
(00:52):
value creation andluxury's next big moves.
So without furtherado, Dr. Daniel Langer.
So it's my great pleasure to,
welcome to thisepisode of the podcast.
(01:14):
I have to say, Torsten,
I don't think that I saw saidthis personally to you yet,
but I have to sayan idol, of mine,
and, Thorsten Müller-Ötvös,
the former CEO of Rolls RoyceMotorcars, of obviously,
a company that doesn't evenneed an introduction and also
personality that, doesn'tneed an introduction.
(01:36):
And,
Totive
who was always themost consequent
(01:59):
in thinking not just aboutthe car, but, you know,
also in being verytransformative
in thinking about,
you know, not onlywhat luxury really is,
but what the storytelling behind
the the the brand, should be.
And, I I have usedquite often the
(02:20):
the example of,inspiring greatness,
that you created, withwith your team as, to me,
a best in classexample of how to
make something that alreadyis in a sense from a product
perspective, thepinnacle of luxury,
but also relevant and tangible.
How to make a transformationfrom the previous generation of
(02:43):
of owners who in many case,
where there's still atleast this was the myth,
a chauffeured in theircars to, you know,
people that really enjoythemselves driving such a
wonderful vehicle.
So it's my absolute pleasureto have you here today and,
discuss with you.
I think it's something that weare both very passionate about.
Actually, two topicsin at the same time.
(03:05):
One is luxury, and the saythe second is automotive.
So welcome.
Yeah.
Thank you very much, Daniel,
and thanks a lotfor your kind words,
but I can also replicate them ina way that I think you are
known as one of the big, luxurythought leaders worldwide.
So for that reason, I thoughtgreat to join your podcast,
(03:26):
and I'm very much lookingforward to our talks here.
Yeah. Wonderful.
And and, Torsten, maybedescribe a little bit
your, for for for everyonewho who knows you,
but maybe doesn't know allthe details of your career.
Maybe describe a little bit,in in a few words your career,
but also, you know,
maybe the transformation thatyou were able to initiate at
(03:49):
Rolls Royce.
Alright.
Couple of words.
I mean, I would consider myselfbeing a brand aficionado,
somebody who really understandsbranding, building brands,
revitalizing brands.
I was for a long, longtime with the BMW Group,
got the chance to revitalizeMINI at times and relaunch
MINI, and then waslater asked, I mean,
(04:13):
now nearly fifteenyears, sixteen years ago,
if I could imagine to take thehelm at Rolls Royce Motor Cars.
Oh, wow. Something, obviously,I didn't need to sleep on.
I mean, that brand is worldfamous, as you said, Daniel.
And it's a brand, by the way,
that is the expression ofluxury anyhow in itself.
Yeah.
Many use it as the TVor the Rolls Royce of TV
(04:36):
sets or the Rolls Royceof kitchens or whatever.
So when I came at times,and that was January twenty ten,
I found a brand, and,
the brand was already ownedby the BMW Group that was,
I would call it back at thepinnacle of automotive business.
Mhmm.
But probably not at levelswhere you see the brand today.
(04:57):
Because when I joined, thebrand was very much male,
nearly hundred percent male,
pretty much on apedestal pedestal,
so also perceived asarrogant, pretty conservative,
slightly old fashioned.
And, for thatreason, in my view,
(05:18):
a change was needed.
And what I did at times,
I interviewed a lot ofprivate banks when I joined
and just to find out moreabout our high net worth individuals.
And there was quite some surprisingoverlap in their opinion,
and that was they all predicteda pretty fundamental change in
the demographics andpsychographics of the ultra
(05:39):
high net worth individuals.
They would get far younger.
Money will be made in newways, different ways, digital,
new business venture,less inherited money,
far more females,
casual behaviors wouldbe name of the games,
and they all arehungry to enjoy life.
(06:00):
Spend the moneyand to enjoy life.
And, also, enjoy life is forme that hunger for experiences.
And to cut it short,
it came exactly as theypredicted in January and
February twenty ten when Iconducted all these interviews.
But for me also,
it became immediately obviousthat this would require a
fundamental change in thebrand positioning and product
(06:23):
strategy for RollsRoyce Motor Car.
So in a nutshell,major steps at times,
and during my time with RollsRoyce were that we did a
systematic change in ourclient relations posture.
So really lifting clientcentricity, Daniel,
to an outstanding level.
(06:43):
I'm I'm I'm fully convincedthat this is super important in
the luxury business,
that you are extremelyclose with your clients,
that you are basically readingtheir wishes before they even
know their wishes.
And, obviously, we alsochanged the brand identity,
and we put youmentioned it already.
We put inspiring greatness
(07:05):
into the core ofthat brand identity.
I mean, it's abig promise. Yeah.
Inspiring greatness becauseeverything you do needs to be
inspiring greatness.
But it worked extremely well,particularly funny enough with,
a younger clients.
And, that obviously then wecomplimented with a visual
identity that also embodiesthat house of luxury aesthetics.
(07:28):
Very important for me toget away from the typical
automotive atmosphere into thathouse of luxury aesthetics.
Then I'm a big believerin storytelling.
I think people are hungryfor Brian's stories.
So the whole press and commswork was shifted into what I
call a storytellingmachine over times.
(07:49):
And then, obviously,during my time,
we also changed the modelpolicy focusing on a far
younger and selfdriving clientele.
You said it.
When I joined, eighty percent of allclients were sitting in the back,
so being chauffeured.
And after I left, it wasexactly the opposite.
Eighty percent weresitting behind the wheel,
(08:10):
driving themselves, andtwenty percent in the back.
And that is also due to thefact that the clients became
very, very young over time.
Mhmm.
Changed average age at timesfrom fifty six when I joined,
average age, down forty toforty three when I left.
So it was a massiverejuvenating project,
(08:32):
that happened here overnearly fifteen years.
And I would say wewere also able to add,
the cool and must havefactor to the brand,
very important in particularwith social media.
So that was a great storyand a great journey,
I must say, obviously, notonly out of my own brain,
but together with my team.
(08:53):
But at times, really a fundamentalchange in the brand perception.
Wonderful.
And, you know, youalready mentioned
you already mentioned, whenwhen you spoke about the
clients, how the clients havebeen changing and and how
client expectationshave have changed.
Maybe let's elaborate alittle bit on on that,
(09:15):
and especially now if you think aboutthe last the last couple of years,
as you observe the clients andalso as I know that you have
been always very, veryclose to, to your clients,
how would you describe,you know, from,
if you if you take the errorthe error around maybe,
you know, the early twothousands and and maybe to the
(09:37):
transition to now,
if you speak about if we speakabout high net worth individuals,
what would be maybe a fewtangible things that that you
have observed that thatchanged in their behaviors,
in their aspirations?
I would say, Daniel, when letlet's say fifteen years ago,
in my perception, luxury was stillpretty much bling to call it like that.
(10:01):
Yeah. Very status oriented.
And, also, I call itoff the shelf. Yeah.
You were justshopping something.
And luxury brands were simply justa symbol of exclusivity and status.
And the more expensive, thehigher the status, basically.
Very easy, very simple.
(10:22):
And that has obviouslynot gone away,
but was enriched massivelyover time with things,
like importanceof craftsmanship,
importance of storytelling,
new levels ofcustomer centricity,
engaging clients, takingclients into a journey with
(10:44):
your brand, giving clientsthe chance to see behind the
curtain of your brand,
understanding how important sustainabilitywill be also for luxury brands.
Yeah. Offer unique experiences.
I think there is,in the meantime,
a strong wish by the clients,
ultra high net worthindividuals in particular,
(11:04):
to belong to the brand.
You are part of a family.
You are not just shopshopping something.
So the product itselfis still important,
but as much as importanttoday is all the services.
Everything you doaround for them,
everything you do interms of invitation,
giving them the chanceto tour the plants,
(11:25):
seeing how you manufacture,
telling stories aboutyour craftsmanship levels.
That has become soimportant over times.
And I would say most important,
and now I'm back to Rolls Royce,
is probably thedevelopment of bespoke.
So nobody any longer wantsto buy something off the
shelf that is somethingthat is no longer relevant.
(11:49):
Everybody wants to put theirown masterpiece together,
together with designers,together with a brand to say,
this is my special Rolls Royce.
I've crafted it. I've designedit. That carries my story.
Very, very important.
I dare to say thatwithout bespoke,
Rolls Royce wouldnot exist any longer.
(12:11):
Yeah. And this is thisis, this is fascinating.
And maybe let's let's let'sdive a little bit in into that,
because I think also forfor one of the the the,
to me, the projects that and andI think they were in in in the in
in the department that youcreated or in in the I think I
think you call it coach.
(12:31):
Is it was co is itcoach coach building?
Yeah. Coach build isthe pinnacle of bespoke.
And, Daniel, this obviouslythat was always in my dream,
shortly after I joined becauseI also read a lot about the
history of the brand.
And in former former times,the roaring twenties,
coach spelled name of the game.
Everybody designedhis own Rolls Royce,
(12:53):
so the chassis was deliveredby Rolls Royce Motorcars,
and then coach builders came anddesigned together with you the body.
That unfortunately wastechnical wise not any longer
possible, and my dream was oneday, I want to bring it back.
The reason behind itis a lot of, let's say,
legal constraints and,
legal requirements you need tofulfill with crash tests and
(13:16):
everything in the meantimein the automotive industry.
For that reason, Coachbuilt is,and we reinvented it at times,
really, the pinnacle ofbespoke by invitation,
of the CEO only.
So it is something that
a normal client or regular clientor somebody who is not, let's say,
(13:37):
already in the process withRolls Royce Motorcars for many
years would not get the offer.
You need to be a top top notchclient to get the offer to
participate in theCoachbuilt project.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I was I was,
I was very impressed by the byby some of these these, you know,
extraordinary projects that thatyou realized with with
(13:59):
Coachbuilt.
And to me, it was I had always thefeeling as an observer, of course,
that to me,
it was really like this rareopportunities where you could
really show the world somethingthat they've never seen before.
Yeah. Right.
I I feel how would you say thatthis also influenced the the
(14:20):
perception of of Rolls Royce?
You made a quite, I think,
a powerful statement beforewhere you said maybe Rolls
Royce without bespoke wouldnot exist anymore, today.
So how important would yousay were these these extraordinary
projects for the brand?
Extremely important becauseextraordinary projects are
marveled by the client, and thepress worldwide was in awe when
(14:43):
they saw it, obviously.
Yeah.
It is testament that youreally go extra miles, many,
many extra miles,and it underlines
all the investmentwe have put into,
bespoke because thatwas not an easy game.
That was changing production,
employing new skillsinto the company,
(15:05):
facilitating new ideasin design, and so on,
looking for new materials and newtechnologies to make that all happen.
Yeah.
So it is testament for whatI would call the normal
bespoke business that when youare a client who is not coach
building your Rolls Royce, youare bespoking your Rolls Royce,
you know that youare part of that
(15:28):
unbelievable dream that you canbuild your own car, your dream,
and that commission somethingthat is out of your brain.
So it was image wise,
very important alsoin a hello way for our
normal bread and butterbespoke business at times.
And then, obviously, it,
also created an unbelievablehype around, the pricing.
(15:52):
And we never talked inany way about the pricing,
of these cars, but thepress started to speculate.
Who is the owner.Twenty million.
We heard twentymillion and so on,
and we never commented on it.
So that also helpedto set price levels.
Mhmm.
(16:13):
Higher levels, it allowedthe brand to move up in a way
of unbelievable.
The most expensive car everbuilt came from Rolls Royce
Motorcars.
I mean, that is a testament,not from our side,
but by the press worldwide,which is gold standard.
And, obviously, particular fora luxury brand, gold standard.
(16:35):
Yeah.
For that reason, I think it was fundamentallyimportant to position the brand.
Yeah.
You know, you, it was itwas quite interesting,
and I think it's something that,
that, you don't knowyet, but it was very,
very early in my in my kind ofearly days is tapping into into
luxury when I started,
(16:55):
with a doctoral thesisin into the topic.
I had the idea of because II was always fascinated by by
pricing and by how howdo you price something.
And I had the idea to create,what I called the luxury index.
And this is basicallya way how to,
compare categories, with eachother in terms of pricing.
(17:15):
So in a in a sense,
it's it's a it's basically a proxyfor the luxuriousness in a category.
I'm taking the the kind of base productthat has the bare bone functionality.
So let's say, if wewould speak about shoes,
you would look ata category for,
is it the cheapest shoe and thekind of the most simple shoe
that that still allows you kindof to to walk with with your
(17:38):
feet protected, and then youtake the most extreme shoe.
And the most extreme,
in in a way of of what wasthe willingness of a customer
to pay the price.
And so we basically thethe most extreme and divided it
with the with the pricepoint of the cheapest one,
and then I compared,
(18:00):
hundred categorieswith each other.
Some categories are durables.
So they were like,cars, for example.
And then I was alsofascinating and said,
what if I look intocategories that are,
in a sense, let's call them perishableor that disappear, like, you know,
when you when you go to arestaurant and have a dinner or
when when you buy maybe abottle of wine and then,
(18:21):
you know, afterafter consumption,
the bottle is empty.
And and so then I was thinking,are there are there, correlations?
So can I say, basically,
maybe one categoryis is nondurable?
Maybe the the the luxuriousnessis somehow limited.
This this logic wouldwould suggest it.
And I found a couple of of,
(18:42):
really fascinating insights.
The first was it didn'tmatter whether durable or nondurable.
We found find really you know,
I think one of the theI I wrote a couple of articles
about that was a breakfastomelette that a hotel in New
York City was, was serving.
And this omelettewas originally,
sold for one thousand dollars,
(19:04):
making it the most expensiveomelette in the world.
And, and then youtake, let's say,
a breakfast omelette that youcan get in a coffee shop around
the corner, and thenyou make the mess.
And you see there's a there'sa huge delta in value creation
between that, extremeomelette and the normal one.
And then I looked into alsothe car category and looked at that
(19:24):
time what was themost expensive car,
which I believe andthis was around,
I think we spoke speakaround two thousand eight,
two thousand nine.
I think it wasprobably the Bugatti,
the Bugatti Veyron at that time.
Bugatti Veyron. Yeah. Right.
And, and so and then we we wecompare that with the with the
cheapest car, money can buy,which at that time, I think,
(19:46):
was the Tata, I think, theTata Nano, on on the market.
And, and you got to quiteinteresting, results.
And one of the results wasthat actually and this was core
quick quick correlate itbetween the omelette and cars.
I saw the omelette categorycould actually be pricier if I
(20:07):
compare this withsome other categories.
And also cars were interestingly
low in terms of price.
And at that time,
we spoke about a Bugatti Veyronfor about I think it was a
million a millioneuros or roughly.
And I remember,being interviewed by,
Automotive and Sport by by theGerman car magazine at that time,
(20:29):
and I made a provocativestatement and said the most
expensive cars are too cheap.
And I remember beingroasted, then afterwards,
I said this this, idiot,
cars are already too expensiveand then comes this this luxury
researcher and says carsshould be more expensive.
And I run the numbers and,
I thought at that timejust comparing categories.
(20:50):
So for example, now you take thehandbag category or you take shoe
categories and so on.
I I was saying if I applyjust the same logic of how
much luxury value was createdin other categories in a
relative term, cars couldbe be priced up to about
hundred million dollars.
This was kind of whatthe maths was saying.
(21:11):
And so and then I I I publisheda couple of articles saying
there should be a twenty or thirtyor fifty million dollar car.
But the the the the the thingis someone has to figure out
how to do it.
And, even if there's maybe noofficial comment on what those
coach building cars cost.
But I think you wentrelatively close to to that,
(21:34):
at least to that dimensions.
And that for me was really, youknow, I I was very, in a sense,
very proud of of whatyou you guys were doing,
there at at Rolls Royce becauseit showed that if you apply the
right storytelling, ifyou apply the right,
how to say that, also theright, creativity, ingenuity,
(21:55):
and also the right inspiration,
you actually can can buildproducts that create so much
value that people actuallypay for for those values.
Although, maybe for millions of peoplethat seems to be absorb price points,
but if the story isright for that one person
who you now create somethingtruly personal and unique,
(22:18):
it's absolutely worththat price point.
I I I fully agree, Daniel.
I I would also addthat, obviously,
clients today in the luxurysegment are pretty savvy pretty
savvy about product substance.
They understand what dothey buy for the money,
and they want to understandwhat do they buy for the money.
So coming back to youromelette point of,
(22:39):
two thousand or whateverthe omelette was,
I must I must say,
there must be somethingsuperb behind it in terms of
storytelling or some otheradditional services that make
these omelettes so perfect thatyou are prepared to pay the price.
I I think the biggest dangerfor luxury brands currently
(23:00):
is a kind of overpromiseand underdeliver.
Yeah.
And, just to say, we canask for skyrocketing prices.
And then later, when you look intothe substance and when you look
into what you really buy andwhat kind of, sorry to say,
cache image you are buying,
you scratch your headand you think, no, guys.
(23:21):
That's no longer,in my view, just
Substance is not great.
The value is notreally in the product.
And that is something that, inmy view, has changed massively.
That was at your timewhen you did your service.
(23:41):
That was fifteen,twenty years ago.
There, I think and that is why Imentioned bling was important for people.
The brand logo in itselfcarried so much power that it
didn't matter whatthe substance was.
The main thing wasI own this brand.
And that is now notlonger possible in my way.
(24:04):
You have very educated,highly skilled people,
particularly socialmedia made a lot out,
about what is the truesubstance behind the brand.
What are you really buying?
What do you you invest
five, six million into a RollsRoyce or whatever the number is.
And, I think rightly so.
(24:25):
And if you don't observe thatand if you don't follow that
kind of intelligence,
then you might end up inoverpromise and under deliver.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think thisis something that,
right now, if we lookat the, you know,
the the current state of ofthe luxury industry, you know,
heading heading now into,this this new year, you know,
(24:45):
the the the last Bainstudy, came in, you know,
a few weeks ago.
And and to me, it was almostlike a wake up call for for
the industry becausethe the what what Bain,
identified was thatabout half of luxury
customers, that they that they,
surveyed were saying luxury brandsas a kind of general
(25:08):
statement are overpriced.
And, this is somethingthat, in, you know,
all my years as anobserver and and, also,
since I participatein this industry,
I've never seen numberslike like that. Yes.
Luxury has never been perceivedas, you know, cheap, so to speak.
(25:28):
But that fifty percent ofpotential customers say that
certain brands are overpricedgoes exactly in the direction
that that you are saying.
And I think that a mistakethat has been done in the last
probably two, three years alsoafter the pandemic when also,
you know, demand, was wasstarting to skyrocket.
Opening.
I I have the feeling thatwe have probably simply some
(25:51):
brands that, that said took andI use now the word on purpose,
maybe a little bitadvantage of the clients,
and of the demandand said, okay.
We can we increase pricebecause we can to a point where
people say, okay.
If I don't understand,like, what you just said,
the value proposition,
if I don't understandwhy I should
(26:11):
pay the money, they'renot going to do that.
And I think this isalso something and I would be
curious about your yourexperience on that because you
have been probablycloser to many,
high net worth individualsthan probably most other luxury
executives as you hadbeen very very you know,
in all your travels, you'vealways met Pete with so on.
I I I'm I'm pretty sure thatyou probably never ever met
(26:34):
anyone who would want towaste your their money.
They they all want toknow what what Guess what?
The reason why theyare so, let's say,
successful and why theyare ultra high net worth
individuals are is because they'reextremely smart with money.
And, for that reason,
they clearly understand whatsubstance means to them,
(26:55):
and they also havelong lasting memory.
If they feel cheated by abrand, they will never forget,
I can tell you. And,this will bite you later.
Some brands, as yourightly said, Daniel,
made a kind of profit,
after the pandemic time by
unreasonably raising pricesbecause demand was given.
(27:18):
But, that was a very shortnotice strategy in my view and
completely neglected thatclients are intelligent.
And they are shrewd to use that,
expression in a positivemeant way and that,
they would not be fooled byanythings you are doing with them.
So and that is now a kindof period where all the
(27:42):
brands who overdid it arenow retuning and readjusting
Mhmm.
On or back to levels whereI would say substance,
brand image, and priceis back into a balance.
And that obviously brings manyanalysts and many observers
into that feeling that,oh, luxury is dead.
(28:04):
Luxury isn't a problem.
And, the luxury brands,
stock markets, tanks withluxury brands, and so on.
Yeah.
Rightly so. Because, again,an overpromise at times. Yeah.
Now they under deliver.
Yeah.
It's in the end, it's alwaysfascinating because, you know,
in the end, it'snot rocket science.
(28:24):
If if, the value to to me inin luck luxury is always about
extreme value, and aslong as brands are able,
to deliver extreme value,
then there will be clients thatare willing to to value the
value and then to alsopay, the price points.
But if they feel,they're not getting,
(28:46):
what people areasked to pay for,
then it's very natural.
Then it feels it feels,it feels overpriced.
It reminds me a little bit,for example, in when I advise,
hospitality brands.
One thing that I seesometimes, you know, traveling,
is you always I would say,
in most cases, you forget howmuch you paid for the hotel room.
(29:08):
And, you know, if NewYork City, for example,
or now to today,I'm I'm in Shanghai.
Yes.
It's it's it's natural that youpay a few hundred dollars for
for for a room.
Room.
But don't charge me ten dollarsfor the the bottle of water
because, you know, we know howmuch a bottle of water cost.
So if, and then we have experiencesin other hotels where maybe the
(29:30):
bottle of wateris complimentary.
And now I go to onehotel where suddenly it's just ten dollars,
and then as I said, really?
And these are the these are thethings I think where so much
many mistakes aredone by, being, yeah,
by not delivering value,but then charging for it.
And these are, as you said,
people things thatpeople will never forget.
No. I mean, that'sPennywise but pound foolish.
(29:52):
That's for sure. Yeah.
And us also on top came andmaybe going back to that
period where the whole marketwas in full swing that many
brands, neglected,
also that I callit now scarcity,
theme, which is highly, highlyimportant for luxury brands.
(30:13):
So the more you pushvolume into the market,
the less attractiveit is for many,
many clients toacquire your brand.
And that was also happeningright after the pandemic.
People flooded the shops with,
all the brands floodedthe shops with,
stuff.
And, I think alwayskeep your brand rare
(30:37):
and, live up to, yeah,
the promise ofscarcity and luxury.
Yeah.
I want to go get back tosomething that you said a
little bit earlier inin our conversation.
The the impressive,
the impressive rejuvenationthat you managed to to bring
into to, Rolls Royce motor cars.
(30:58):
And I part of this rejuvenation,
of course, was a transitionof the portfolio,
with the launch of Cullinan and andSpectra under under your leadership.
And I I would I would love to talkto you a little bit about, you know,
this the how you were able tobring Inspire greatness and and
the idea around this intothe launches of of both,
(31:21):
of both brands.
And, I have to say,
I found personally also whenwhen I observed the launch of
Cullinan, to me, it was reallya best in class best in class
example of a of a line orportfolio extension because I I
would imagine that,
the challenges for Cullinan werequite were quite significant.
(31:43):
And this could have been aproject that could have also
broken the company if it'snot executed in the right way.
So maybe if you could sharea little bit the the personal
learnings of of thatlaunch and what were, like,
kind of critical factorsto to help customers
that probably one we'renot even you know,
(32:04):
I assume a lot of Cullodencustomers were not even Rolls
Royce customers before.
So So maybe customers who knewthe brand but never really
experienced the brand.
How do you bring the yeah.
Let's let's let's use the word,
the story of the brand tosomeone who never saw the brand.
Yeah. Very good point.I mean, rightly so.
As you said, it was somethingwhere during my time,
(32:28):
we took a long time to reallydevelop the right product.
That is true for Cullinan,but also was true for Spectre,
the electric Rolls Royce.
Both products
are controversial and werehighly controversial in the
beginning when first ideas,us mulling plans about it
leaked into the press.
(32:49):
Oh, is this really possible?
I mean, nobody would say no ifyou offer a convertible or a
coupe or a lovely limousine.
That is the naturalturf for motor cars,
but an SUV at timesdefinitely wasn't.
Mhmm.
So what we did and now Icome to a point which I personally
think is super important,and that is storytelling.
(33:10):
If you don't investigate
a certain rationale behindthe product and a link between
product and brand,And we have done it.
And guess what?
We found a very interestingand marvelous story,
and the story isLawrence of Arabia.
And Lawrence of Arabiaused to drive together with
(33:33):
his, army armored RollsRoyces through the deserts.
And, that was a fantastic story.
And these Rolls Royces wereso reliable that he said
the Rolls Royce in the desert is moreworse and more valuable than rubies.
And, this is, a common say,
and we started todevelop that story.
(33:54):
And we told everybody thatthere is big credential in us
doing it because, formally,a Rolls Royce was everywhere,
even in the deserts with ruins ofArabia or in the outbacks of Australia.
So the cars wereextremely capable always.
That was the historyof the brand.
So an SUV is a kind of naturaldevelopment in that area.
(34:16):
So that went downextremely well.
Then on top came what I call amarvelous story around the naming.
Cullinan, the largest everfound raw diamond in the world,
sits in the crownjewels of, her majesty
in the UK.
And all that in conjunctionwith the authenticity of, yes,
(34:37):
we can go off road andwe can go everywhere,
made it easy to find somethingthat was very, very convincing.
And then, obviously, we alsogot the design pretty right.
I would say in the beginning,
it was truly a Rolls Roycebecause one thing I also
believe is nevergive up your soul.
Never give up underyour credentials.
(34:57):
It needed to be a Rolls Royce.
A Rolls Royce firstand an SUV second.
And that means magic carpetride also needs to happen in a
Rolls Royce SUV Cullinan.
Everything you are used tois also happening in a Cullinan.
In a row it's usedto from a restaurant.
So that in the end opened up new
(35:22):
garages for people whoobserved us for quite some time
and also said, I guess not yet.
I'm too young.
Maybe in ten, fifteen years,
I'm in for a RollsRoyce or whatever.
And Kalinin changedmassively that
perception that this issuddenly something that is the
number one car inthe, in the garage.
(35:43):
And, a car that wasused for all, let's say,
travel alternatives,school runs,
going down to the yardharbor with the family,
using the car as your numberone car in the household that
is also highly unconventionaland was very unconventional for
us at times because clients inthe segment of Rolls Royce is
(36:06):
normally do have seven, eight,
nine cars in the
at least.
So for every certainpurpose, a special car.
And we were able to push otherSUVs out of the garage and
to enter with Cullinan.
And that was important forus that we are we are not
cannibalizing theexisting model range,
but we wanted to lookout for new clients,
(36:29):
clients who never hadever before in their life,
the Rolls Royce in the garage.
Yeah.
I I think,
here I can just say also againfrom from a personal experience.
I have a friend who, whobought a Cullinan, and,
he he also told me that thethis idea of inspire greatness
(36:49):
is something that he feelsevery time when he he goes into
to the he's a very easy alsovery successful entrepreneur.
But so it's for him almosta reminder every day,
of that he has todeliver greatness.
So also a great link.
And I I remember alsothat, and and also, again,
kudos to that.
When when you launched Kalinin,there was there were also,
(37:10):
like I think you had acollaboration with National
Geographic.
I remember there were some somevideo that they showed that
showed the car in this,in this mission, I think.
And then there was, like,a long video, almost, like,
seventeen minutes or so.
Yeah.
We had different sequences of videoswhere the car two had basically
superb off roadareas in the world.
(37:32):
Yeah.
In the sets, in theScottish Highlands,
all over in Australia,in the Outbacks.
Hundred percent. Wellremembered, Daniel.
You're right.
That was I would call it a geniusmarketing story as well, yeah,
and gave the car massivecredibility that it was
possible to really do what wepromised the car would deliver.
(37:55):
Mhmm. Yeah.
And I I remember I've, I I'veshown that video to some of my,
marketing students in inmy luxury MBA classes.
And I would say, Unisono,
the the the feedback was afterthey they were were tortured,
I have to say,because, you know,
it was the attentionspan today of,
of of of Gen z's thattypically are six seconds.
(38:18):
And you give them a say seventeenminute video to, to watch.
Almost everyone afterwards said whenthe video came to the end,
said, I want this car.
And that for me was, you know,a remarkable testament how,
as you said before, howcritical storytelling is,
but also how criticalalmost, like, to me,
(38:38):
this that that videoparticularly was was really
giving in in so manydifferent dimension, a logic,
and a reason whysomeone needed that car.
And but without withoutbasically begging for that.
Just there was like a therewas like a, yeah, to me,
it just an a naturalnessand effortlessness,
(38:58):
to to that, and and still, it wassomething very, very convincing.
And, you know, so manyother, car videos or so,
I don't even remember.
But this was one where Ithought it's so it was so
unusual and so, I would say,
also bold in in away how it was done.
(39:19):
And I think, correct me,
but I think that thethe the entire launch campaign also,
and and this to me alsowas even revolution,
like, a revolution in theautomotive space was mainly
digital, if I remember well.
Hundred percent. Yeah.
It's anyhow thatwe and at my time,
mainly went digital because,it is highly cost effective
(39:43):
And, it's something obviously,
we also had events with clientsworldwide because I'm a true
believer that, you need to,
throw quite a lot of events andexperiences with your client,
you'll end yourupcoming prospects.
That was also where we investedsubstantial money into,
but the rest was all into,let's say, as you say,
(40:04):
social media and digital,channels all over the world.
Yeah.
In speaking about events, thatbrings me, I think, to another,
critical, I would successfact and critical topic in in
luxury, the experience.
And, you know,
I personally and thisis probably because
I'm I'm personally not yeta client of Rolls Royce.
(40:27):
So I'm I'm a client of someother brands that most people
would would call probablyluxury car brands.
But I have to say that forme in in luxury automotive,
maybe one of the Achillesheel can often be the customer
experience, especially in thisindirect model that so many,
brands are dependent on whereyou have dealership and we all
(40:49):
know some arebetter than others.
And I'm always seem to be thethe unlucky one that get the
bad dealers, so tospeak, wherever I am too.
Yeah.
But but talk a little bit aboutthe the dealership experience
because I I I know from my own,
from from my ownhistory with car brands,
whenever I brokeup with a brand,
(41:10):
it was always because of the ofsomething that happened in the
dealership experience.
Serviced all. Later. And veryoften, as you said, service.
You know, you you arrive theservice place and you have an
appointment, and thenthey tell you, no.
You don't have an appointment.
It's silly things that in the endlet this experience break down.
So I would be be curiousbecause I can imagine that you
(41:31):
had faced exactlythe same challenges.
What were what were things thatyou particularly paid attention to?
What would you mayberecommend others to to do?
What what are kind of the thethe ingredients to make the
client experience at at thedealership or the point of sale
in general extraordinary?
(41:52):
I mean, just to put it simple,I would say training, training,
training, training.
That is actually obviously,
you need to develop atraining that teaches people
how to behave in the luxuryatmosphere and how to deal with
these very discerning clients.
What do you need to do?
(42:12):
So we developed,
during my time, a program,
that was teaching basicallyeverybody in Goodwood in our
worldwide partner networkshow to deal with clients.
And that is obviouslysomething where you can't rest.
(42:32):
You need to do that constantly.
And you also need to select the rightpeople who are offering the services.
Not everybody iscapable to talk to
the clients in the way how youwant them to talk to the clients.
And I think you also need tomake decision who is fronting
clients and who isnot fronting clients.
(42:53):
Because the one who's frontingclients definitely needs
the feeling and needs thecapabilities to speak with
clients on eye level and needsto read all the wishes from
their eyes whilespeaking to them.
That's what theyall expect from you.
If you fail, you have aproblem. I can't agree more.
(43:14):
For that reason, that is theAchilles heel, as you said.
And if you are not trainingyour Achilles heel regularly,
it might break, andthen you have a problem.
Yeah.
So I also think that it is andyou see that with many brands.
They all invest into brick andmortar shops, shops, shops.
(43:34):
But that's easy.
And, what not what is not easy isto find and train the right people
who interact onhighest levels and,
to find them is difficult.
So I think as a luxury brand,
it requires that youare permanently on
your toes, permanently,
(43:55):
and that you are reachingout for new experiences,
that you are training yourpeople constantly on new
levels, new ideas, and fascinatingways to impress the client.
If you don't do that and if andnow it comes that's my final point.
You also need to payyour people properly
because you need goodpeople to do that.
And if you're notprepared to pay,
(44:17):
you won't get theright level of people.
But this service is crucial.
It's for me the neck breakerfor luxury if it isn't executed
in a proper way.
Yeah. Yeah. I I can'tI can't agree more.
And, you know, that makes me alsoso enthusiastic that we will also
do master classes together.
Yeah. I'm very much lookingforward to that. Yeah.
(44:37):
And I think we havea lot to teach here,
some other luxury brands whomight want to get a bit of
guidance here alsofrom our side.
What is important when itcomes to service levels?
How do you wanna?
What do we need to say, how dowe teach the people, and so on.
And I think we both have lotsof knowledge around that.
Yeah. Yeah.
(44:57):
I think it's it's it's going to be it'sgoing to be very, very, very exciting.
And it it's it's it's so whatyou said also resonated so much
with me because sometimes, you know, whenI I I did a lot of,
over the last coupleof of of of years,
but specifically in in inthe last maybe six, seven months,
a lot of trainings, forexample, in in hospitality or,
you know, when takehot luxury hospitality,
(45:19):
branded residences, and so on.
And so very,
investment heavy categories wheresometimes companies spend on one property,
sometimes billions when you takehuge huge real estate developments.
And then, you know,
the one thing thatalmost flabbergast me is
there's no problem to spenda billion in real estate.
(45:41):
But then all the factorsthat you just mentioned,
paying the staff thatthen delivers the,
the to the client,paying them properly,
putting the right incentivesystems in place that are not
focusing on, onsomething transactional,
but focusing actually onthe client experience,
really thinking strategicallyon how to incentivize that.
(46:03):
But then also eveneven trainings,
the discussion that thensometimes are about training
budgets, somewherewhere, again, you know,
unbelievable amount of of ofmoney is spent on the hardware,
and then you have a, let'ssay, a beautiful palace.
But within thatbeautiful palace,
there is basicallyno no content,
(46:24):
in there or no soul to to to to usethe word that you said said before.
And and that is basicallydestroying so many things that
could otherwise be mind blowing.
It takes something mind blowingto something that is, you know,
just maybe a a a far cryfrom from its potential.
Hundred percent. Ican't agree more.
(46:45):
And, unfortunately,
that is people very often orbrands very often think brick
and mortar is safe.
It's a good investment.
Whilst training is not agood investment because our people
might leave us tomorrow.
I think that is very,
very wrong in its opinionbecause well trained people and
also well paid people willstay extremely loyal to you
(47:08):
because they enjoyworking for you,
because you have put effortinto them and you have trained
them, and theywill pay that back.
I'm I'm I'm I'm veryconvinced about it.
At my times at Rolls Royce,
we opened so called privateoffices worldwide because not
everybody could travel to Goodwoodto see it all with their own eyes.
So we opened,
(47:30):
private offices in, all majorcapital cities in the world,
and, we invested here as well,
heavy into training and heavyinto how to interact with people.
And I can tell you, when I left,
ninety five percent of thepeople in the private offices
were still the people we,
employed at times whenwe generated the idea.
(47:52):
So, I'm a true believer thatinvestment in people pays back
in a very positiveway for your brand.
Yeah.
And I'm also I'm, yeah, I'm I'mI'm also convinced that, that,
if someone basicallyalso feels in the end,
it comes everything we arediscussing comes back to
how can we create value and howcan we make someone feel valued.
(48:15):
So and this is basically theperspective of the client that,
you know, when theywalk, let's say,
to a car dealership or towhat you just described,
the private office,that they feel valued,
but it's also the employee.
Because if they getthe right training,
if they get basically the right
support system at at the hand,if and if they are basically,
(48:37):
get the right structure, then alsothey as as a person can develop.
So it's basically if I thinkif if luxury is done right,
to me is is actually the mostexciting category to be in
because then it'sit's it creates, like,
an ecosystem of value wherefrom the client to to everyone
involved, value is created.
(48:59):
And if it's not done right,
then it goes back towhat you said earlier,
when when you talk abouttalked about, you know,
brands not deliveringon their promise,
then it's just aa beautiful frame
without any withoutanything in that frame.
And then this frameis going to collapse.
People are not going to stay.
Customers customers are notgoing to believe in it and then
(49:21):
going to run away.
I think in the luxury business,you need to be a perfectionist.
I'm a perfectionist.
That's also why I love thatbusiness because you suddenly
need to go extra miles.
And something thatwas right today
is not any longer right thenext day for the client.
That also brings me back topoints like events, yeah,
(49:42):
Daniel, and,irritations for clients.
So if you had, let's say,
good experiences with a kindof event format this year,
don't bet on thatfor the next year.
Next year is next year, andyou need to develop new ideas,
new things toattract your clients.
All the clients at high endsector have invitations from
(50:02):
many, many other brands,
and they have the chanceto constantly compare.
And many peopledon't think about it,
that your clients
are flooded with many ideasfrom other luxury brands.
So you need to be onyour toes to be always
ahead of the curve and to findnew ways to attract them and to
(50:23):
enthuse your clients.
I think one thing thatimpressed me always is,
that you are probably fromfrom all the the from from
most of the leaders in in thein the automotive industry and
potentially even in theluxury industry at large,
probably the one that spendmost time with one on one,
(50:44):
with with clients.
Maybe share a little bityour your insights there,
how how important this thispersonal touch and this
personal time is for the client,
also for you inspiringyourself in in your day to day.
I would say, Daniel,that was my lifeblood.
So, that gave me
(51:05):
the thought andgave me the ideas.
What I did, and I traveled alot whenever I was on travels,
we invited ten tofifteen clients,
couples, for a beautifullovely evening dinner,
and we chatted everything.
We chatted business. Wedidn't chat automotive.
We chatted business.
We chatted what's going oncurrently in the country,
(51:28):
what is important.
And, also, for me, amazingto hear what other luxury brands
they favor, for whatreason do they favor them,
and what was their latest andgreatest experience with other
brands, and that gaveme superb insights.
And I would consider myselfas really pretty savvy in
(51:48):
understanding the clientele.
And, I mean, after fourteenyears and at least two travels
each month, I've seenquite a lot of clients.
I wouldn't say I know every singleclient within Rolls Royce Motorcars,
but the organization definitelyknows every single client.
One of my core beliefs at timeswhen I joined was if when the
(52:10):
client is the king and theclient is the king because only
the client brings themoney, nobody else,
then we are serving thatking and that is the client.
And for that reason, I wantedthat all people ideally get as
much contact withclients as possible.
So we allowed clients tosee a production line to
(52:31):
really look over theshoulders of the clients and,
to talk with them and toto really interact with
them, to hear it fromthe horse's mouth
Yeah. Things need to be perfect.
And, and the reason theyare marveling Rolls Royce
(52:52):
is perfection inevery single detail.
And when you hearthat from a client,
then you have a completedifferent attitude and mindset
suddenly than somebody whojust started training on that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. This isthis is, fantastic.
And this leads meto to, you know,
probably anotherchallenge that many luxury
(53:12):
brands will will,are facing today,
and this is thedifferences in culture.
And I can imagine, youknow, on on your travels,
and similar to toto me, right now,
but also traveling almostevery week some somewhere,
it it is so remarkable howdifferent every region in in
(53:32):
the world is, every every place.
And then even within countries,you know, sometimes we speak,
even in, in general termsabout a country like China.
And then sometimes weforget that in China,
we have more than a hundred andforty cities of over a million
top billion people.
And sometimes I haveto when people say, oh,
so just a tier four city.
Yeah. Come on.
(53:53):
A tier four city is biggerthan the biggest cities in some well
known in some wellknown countries.
So it's it's it'sit's interesting.
And and so for forhow would you say
or what are maybe criticalsuccess factors for for luxury
brands when it comes
to serving customers all overthe world where there's so many
(54:16):
different expectations,
different rituals,different ways of,
utilizing products,sometimes even, you know,
different tastes.
I can imagine especiallywhen it comes to cars,
there's so manydifferent tastes.
You know?
If I look at, forexample, Japan,
(54:36):
Middle East, the Americas,you know, Germany,
and and so on.
Hundred percent.Hundred percent.
I mean, I mean,for me personally,
it's extremely importantthat you adapt to,
local or countryspecific cultures,
that you also spend time in thecountry to better understand
(54:56):
why clients are choosingthis and not choosing that.
Bespoke, I said it acouple of times now in our,
little podcast here is isfor me very, very important.
And Bespoke gave us all theopportunities, obviously,
to cater for each individualtaste pattern and to do
whatever clients were asking usthey wanted to see commissioned
(55:20):
in their restaurants.
So on top comes, I thinkthat you also need to make an
effort that youengage more with,
maybe local other brands, other
luxury brands, local onesthat you are starting to
cooperate maybe alsoin countries with
local brands thatyou make an effort to
(55:43):
position your brand as eyeopened to other foreign cultures.
And I think thatis super important,
particularly for youngergenerations out of those countries.
It is importantthat western brands
are at least making an effortto adapt to local cultures
and to make an effort toget a certain I call it now
(56:07):
Chinese cliche as well intotheir brand proposition in
China, which isartificial, which
needs to be authentic.
But, obviously, you make an effortto adapt yourself to a local culture.
Yeah.
Maybe maybe one or twomore more more questions because
this has been such afascinating such a fascinating
(56:29):
discussion with so many wherewe already have so many,
insights that that,that you shared.
If you basically reflect on onyour tenure at at Rolls Royce,
when you think about maybeyour personal learnings about
luxury, but also interms of leadership,
and some you have in in the differentquestions already referred to.
(56:49):
But what were in inyour point of view,
when you think about whatyou know today about luxury,
and maybe what were your assumptiongoing into the into those roles?
What were maybe the mostsignificant personal learnings,
and what can can you sharemaybe to others who aspire to
become leaders in inthe luxury, world?
(57:11):
I mean, it is not easy to putthat into a nutshell that takes
hour to talk about that whatneeded to really get into,
the luxury segment.
But I would say one ofmy fundamental learnings
is client centricity.
And, client centricity in away that the client is not
only in your mind, the clientis constantly at your heart.
(57:35):
And that is something what youneed to live and what you also
need to showcase to yourown people every day,
every single minute thatonly the client counts,
nothing else.
And that is, I think, extremelycrucial in the luxury sector.
Extremely crucial.Learning number one.
Number two isbespoke, in my view,
(57:55):
is crucial because luxury todayisn't any longer off the shelf.
You need to give clientsthe chance to interact,
to be part of the brand,
also to give them the chanceto put their own taste
patterns into the brand and tofulfill own dreams with the brand.
And then you mentioned it.I mentioned it storytelling.
(58:17):
I mean,
many brands don't make aneffort to reflect on what great
stories they couldpotentially tell.
Me, personally, I think when youmake the effort and when you really
delve into history and whenyou delve into how you build
product and so on,
there are lots of storiesyour clients will be interested in.
Wonderful.
(58:37):
And maybe one one lastone last question is,
if you reflect on it's it'skind of funny to just use the
word reflect on the future.
But if if if you kind of,
think a little bit about wherefor you the future of luxury is
from from what you've seen, youalready spoke about, you know,
(58:58):
coming from maybe the world oflet's call it maybe a little
bit of more superficialluxury, the bling bling,
towards maybe a worldof more content today,
of more relevance.
You also spoke aboutbeing part of something,
so the community aspect.
So we're moving we're movingfrom from from product
to to creating value for the
(59:21):
client as a whole.
So if we now go another tenyears or twenty years into the
future, where wouldyou say would be
one or two things thatyou expect to become much more
relevant in the futurethan they are today?
I would say probablysustainability,
ethical practices, more andmore important in future.
(59:44):
Digital innovationis super important,
not only usingadvanced technology,
but also what I would call aseamless omnichannel experience.
We talked alreadyabout customization and
personalization that is goingup to new levels in future.
I'm pretty convinced about it.
Cultural relevance, wetalked a minute ago.
(01:00:05):
So put local insightsinto your brand.
Generate an authenticstorytelling.
What makes you great in China?
Why is your brides relevant forChina just to stick with China
now or Middle East or whatever.
Health and wellness issomething I'm personally
extremely convinced, aboutis something that plays a
(01:00:26):
role in future.
That holistic well-being approach,the wellness integration,
incorporating wellness elementsinto your product design,
all that becomesimportant in my view.
And then, obviously, Isaid in the beginning,
the whole social responsibilitything, community engagement,
inclusive inclusivity,diversity,
(01:00:48):
very, very important for luxury.
All these facets obviouslyneeds need to be played in a
luxury way.
And,
quite some ideas in my mind howthat could all be done, but,
that could be now a podcastfor the next eight hours.
Yeah. Wonderful. So so no.This was this was was great.
(01:01:08):
And, you know, just reflecting whileyou were you were giving those those
points in a very precise way,you know, from sustainability,
you spoke about digitalcustomization, personalization,
the culturalrelevance, authentic storytelling.
And then then, you know,
what really resonated withme was this idea of health,
wellness, theholistic well-being.
(01:01:30):
So in a sense, we can reallysee if if we maybe maybe put
this holistic well-being almostlike the ultimate the ultimate
goal, to go,
there's really a transitionthat a fundamental transition
that has been happeningand will happen.
And I don't want to say awayfrom product because one of the
things you just mentionedwas more an integration into
(01:01:53):
Absolutely.
I should think maybeless in a way, of,
maybe less in a in atraditional engineering way
where it is all about, you know,
kind of taming the machineand making making things,
making things maybe asperfect as possible.
But in a sense, thinkingabout the human and thinking,
(01:02:16):
how can we make the enrich thelife of the human through our
products, through our servicesin in the best possible way.
And but thinking about thisin a non compromising way because
all of the things youmentioned, you know,
from sustainability to culturalrelevance personalization
fundamentally says wehave to put the human
at the center, and we have tomake something very humanistic.
(01:02:39):
And so,
from from what I observed in ourconversation is fundamentally,
we have to speak thinkabout luxury and the transition of
luxury from a maybevery product centric
approach twenty, thirty, fiftyyears ago to a very human
centric approach betweennow and the next ten,
(01:03:02):
twenty, thirty years.
And that I also understandit it will be, Daniel,
it will be an extremelyholistic approach that is
needed in future, which is notonly reflecting, let's say,
the product initself that is given.
The product needs tobe great and perfect,
but it is not sufficient.
You need to have agreat service level.
You need to have fantasticclient interaction.
(01:03:23):
And you read need toread your clients.
And your clients areconstantly on the run,
and they have constantlynew ideas, ambitious.
I just mentioned a couple ofthem where I think they will
become highlyrelevant in future.
So you need todevelop, I call it,
an ecosystem for your luxurybrand that really reflects on
all different areas that areimportant in future for the
(01:03:46):
client because theclient is the king,
and the client is theone who buys your brand.
Yeah.
And this means also that inin a sense to to build that
ecosystem, we needto also think in a
completely differentway about skills,
in a completely differentway about the the approaches.
And it also makes me soenthusiastic about, you know,
(01:04:07):
what we want to do together,
because this isthese are things that
we will be able to provideto organizations to look into
those kind of skills toprepare organizations
in this transition from wherethey are today into what the
customers of the futurewhat the future Actually,
what is what is what is reallyneeded to elevate your brand?
(01:04:30):
If the strategy should be,
let's try to elevate the brandinto even further levels and
higher levels, then, obviously,
you need to understand thecodes for that and what is
needed to make that happen.
And I think
that's it, Daniel.
Yeah. Super. Wonderful.
So, Thorsten, thank you somuch for for your time today.
(01:04:52):
That was an pleasure.
And,
yeah, and I think thisthis is one of the,
I think will be one of thehighlights of of the podcast series.
Thank you really for,you know, sharing,
with everyone yourinvaluable insights,
your story, thelearnings on on the way.
And we will share we will sharealso your contacts in the in in
(01:05:14):
the show notes so that everyonewho wants to contact you knows
how to to reach you.
So thank you once again.
Perfect. Lovely.
Now thank you, Daniel, and,
looking forward seeing you soon.
Yeah. Thank you.
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