Pressure Tested: Paradox Leadership and AI Execution

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(00:00):
.999Hey crafters.
Just a reminder, this podcast is for informational entertainment purposes only and should not be considered advice. 3 00:00:08,330.0000000002 --> 00:00:18,10.001 The views and opinions expressed our own and do not represent those of any company or business we currently work with are associated with, or have worked with in the past. 4 00:00:18,610.001 --> 00:00:20,530.001 for tuning in to the FutureCraft podcast. 5 00:00:20,800.001 --> 00:00:21,770.001 Let's get it started. 6 00:00:21,820.001 --> 00:00:22,270.001 Hey there. 7 00:00:22,270.001 --> 00:00:31,390.001 Welcome to The Future Craft Go To Market podcast, where we're exploring how AI is changing all things go to market, from awareness to loyalty, and everything in between. 8 00:00:31,720.001 --> 00:00:34,540.001 I'm Ken Roden, one of your guides on this exciting new journey. 9 00:00:35,245.001 --> 00:00:41,5.001 And I'm Erin Mills, your other co-host, and together we're here to unpack the future of AI and go to market. 10 00:00:41,335.001 --> 00:00:48,565.001 We are gonna share some best practices, how tos and interview industry leaders and pioneers who are paving the way in AI and go to market. 11 00:00:49,15.001 --> 00:00:58,240.001 So Ken, what's new in your AI adventures? Yeah, so I wanted to talk about something that is. 12 00:00:58,660.001 --> 00:01:08,770.001 Core to any go-to market team, which is what do you do with your ICP insights and you can pull from so many different places, right? Win-loss analysis. 13 00:01:09,265.001 --> 00:01:14,215.001 Interviews with customers and closed, lost, you can also get insights from your sales team. 14 00:01:14,215.001 --> 00:01:22,865.001 But how do you aggregate all that information? The first stop would be just, okay, use all that information to create an ICP profile, buyer persona, whatever you wanna call it. 15 00:01:23,105.001 --> 00:01:24,425.001 And so I've done that already. 16 00:01:24,425.001 --> 00:01:32,885.001 We've kinda already talked about that stuff, but what's been interesting, I've been, finding a lot of success with is using it to create a content blueprint. 17 00:01:33,215.001 --> 00:01:46,845.001 So I've been putting ICP information into a workflow that I have that is then analyzing trends that are specific to that ICP and relevant to our value prop. 18 00:01:47,145.001 --> 00:01:56,485.001 And what I'm able to then get is a little bit of a content theme and calendar for both our sales teams BDRs, as well as our marketing team to have topics for. 19 00:01:56,820.001 --> 00:01:58,110.001 Content webinars. 20 00:01:58,330.001 --> 00:02:05,460.001 And what's been cool is we've actually been getting feedback from some of the leadership teams saying wow, this is stuff that we should have always been talking about. 21 00:02:05,790.001 --> 00:02:18,200.001 And what I think has been fun is it's leveraging deep research, but then I'm using something called typeset to formalize it and make it look clean so that it has that kind of professional branding sleek to it. 22 00:02:18,845.001 --> 00:02:26,765.001 Ken, are you cheating on Gamma? It's called Gamma's, my go-to PowerPoint presentation tool, but I've gotta say typeset. 23 00:02:26,895.001 --> 00:02:30,195.001 It's a little pricey, but I would say I've been pleased with the output. 24 00:02:30,565.001 --> 00:02:33,685.001 So I guess in short, yeah, maybe I'm flirting with typeset. 25 00:02:35,65.001 --> 00:02:35,695.001 Nothing wrong with it. 26 00:02:36,835.001 --> 00:02:45,695.001 How about you? How have you been using ai? I think today we're actually gonna cover it in our session after we talk to our guest Mike, who I'm super excited to speak with today. 27 00:02:46,25.001 --> 00:02:56,535.001 And I've been doing a lot with lovable we constantly get asked how do we prompt better how do we, you and I prompt and my team often struggles with what's the right. 28 00:02:56,705.001 --> 00:03:02,905.001 Level of context and how do I get good outputs? You put in a prompt that maybe isn't super refined. 29 00:03:02,915.001 --> 00:03:09,735.001 You get out something that's also not very refined, and so people stumble and I think that's hard for folks. 30 00:03:09,755.001 --> 00:03:14,615.001 so hearing all that feedback, I thought it might be helpful to create a little app that folks could use. 31 00:03:14,765.001 --> 00:03:21,45.001 Now, obviously tons of GPTs out there that can help you prompt, but this will illustrate how to use. 32 00:03:21,230.001 --> 00:03:27,610.001 Lovable in a fast way and create apps on the fly, which I mean would've been unheard of years ago. 33 00:03:27,820.001 --> 00:03:32,350.001 And especially for somebody who's not super technical like me, it was a game changer. 34 00:03:32,350.001 --> 00:03:37,510.001 And then also being able to put something in production that people can use and find, hopefully find helpful. 35 00:03:38,480.001 --> 00:03:39,470.001 I can't wait to see it. 36 00:03:40,770.001 --> 00:03:42,690.001 It is crazy how fast things are moving. 37 00:03:42,690.001 --> 00:03:44,430.001 I'm excited to see what you've built. 38 00:03:45,510.001 --> 00:03:45,930.001 Yeah. 39 00:03:45,930.001 --> 00:03:52,160.001 And another one of those where started off slow, steep learning curve, but once you get it, it's much, much easier. 40 00:03:52,160.001 --> 00:04:05,330.001 So speaking about learning curves and things changing, who do we have on the podcast today? Yeah, so we've got Mike Sweeney, who is a strategic executive coach to founders and CEOs. 41 00:04:05,390.001 --> 00:04:06,840.001 He's a self-proclaimed girl. 42 00:04:06,840.001 --> 00:04:12,790.001 Dad turned a paradox nerd and he's gonna be talking to us about leadership, which is a little different. 43 00:04:12,790.001 --> 00:04:13,480.001 You might think. 44 00:04:13,600.001 --> 00:04:23,50.001 We're talking about go to market and ai, but what we're talking to him about more is the mindset that leaders need to have in thinking about how to lead through this transformation. 45 00:04:23,230.001 --> 00:04:27,540.001 So he's gonna give us his expertise, given all of his experience, and I'm excited. 46 00:04:27,540.001 --> 00:04:28,620.001 I think you're gonna love meeting him. 47 00:04:29,395.001 --> 00:04:29,935.001 Can't wait. 48 00:04:30,990.001 --> 00:04:31,470.001 Great. 49 00:04:31,590.001 --> 00:04:42,33.33433333 We'll be back right after this Alright, and now we're back. 50 00:04:42,63.33433333 --> 00:04:44,763.33433333 And today we're thrilled to welcome Mike Sweeney. 51 00:04:44,763.33433333 --> 00:04:53,193.33433333 We're taking a little bit of a different angle today on today's talk, and I think what's exciting is we're gonna talk about leadership in a lot of change management, which is. 52 00:04:53,388.33433333 --> 00:04:55,818.33433333 At the forefront of what's going on in AI today. 53 00:04:56,298.33433333 --> 00:05:01,548.33433333 Mike is a trusted executive coach, organizational psychologist, and leadership strategist. 54 00:05:01,548.33433333 --> 00:05:08,378.33433333 With over two decades of experience developing high performing leaders in teams, his career began in the US capital. 55 00:05:08,448.33433333 --> 00:05:08,928.33433333 Calor. 56 00:05:09,468.33433333 --> 00:05:10,968.33433333 I actually didn't read this part. 57 00:05:11,638.33433333 --> 00:05:12,298.33433333 That's amazing. 58 00:05:12,618.33433333 --> 00:05:23,328.33433333 His career began in the US cavalry evolved through managing two wineries in Napa Valley and led him into professional services where he built a strong reputation for transforming leaders and delivering results. 59 00:05:23,598.33433333 --> 00:05:42,978.33433333 Today, he works closely with CEOs, founders and executive teams navigating high stakes transitions and growth, and that could not be more prevalent today than it has been over the last 20 years known for delivering honest, inspirational, thought provoking talks on the paradox in leadership, emotional intelligence, and high performing teams. 60 00:05:44,498.33433333 --> 00:05:45,628.33433333 happy to have you, Mike. 61 00:05:45,628.33433333 --> 00:05:46,678.33433333 Thanks for joining us. 62 00:05:47,263.33433333 --> 00:05:48,103.33433333 I am happy to be here. 63 00:05:48,403.33433333 --> 00:05:50,933.33433333 Yeah, it's mike to get us started. 64 00:05:51,323.33433333 --> 00:06:01,513.33433333 On this show, we talk a lot about how teams and leaders are navigating this transformation, right? We talk about it being related to ai, but it's actually a lot of what Erin mentioned, like change management. 65 00:06:01,773.33433333 --> 00:06:14,958.33433333 From your perspective, what's showing up most for leaders right now in the conversations you're having? Talk about the leaders I work with and often I'm sitting either with co-founder duos or with executive teams. 66 00:06:15,408.33433333 --> 00:06:21,728.33433333 The things that I see, of course, are ambiguity, people dealing with political changes. 67 00:06:22,28.33433333 --> 00:06:24,668.33433333 The pace of change is certainly rapid in general. 68 00:06:24,698.33433333 --> 00:06:29,78.33433333 The other thing I'm seeing a lot of is pessimism, both in leaders and teams themselves. 69 00:06:29,78.33433333 --> 00:06:36,328.33433333 One of the dimensions that we often assess teams on is there a sense of optimism or pessimism present within the team? So that's going up. 70 00:06:36,868.33433333 --> 00:06:47,548.33433333 A delay in decision making, so a mix between leaders trying to be consensus driven, but wanna make the decision and teams waiting until. 71 00:06:47,848.33433333 --> 00:06:49,978.33433333 The leader gets frustrated in making the decision. 72 00:06:50,278.33433333 --> 00:07:00,178.33433333 And then a lot of ingroup, outgroup conversations, like if sales would just dot dot, kind of the fantasy of if only leadership capital L would do X, Y, Z. 73 00:07:00,508.33433333 --> 00:07:08,563.33433333 So those some are some of the things that I'm seeing and the general change, increase in pessimism decision making process challenges. 74 00:07:08,563.33433333 --> 00:07:10,793.33433333 And then, ingroup, outgroup behaviors. 75 00:07:11,718.33433333 --> 00:07:20,58.33433333 With a lot of the CEO correspondence that's coming out lately, it's used to be this employee centric and. 76 00:07:20,448.33433333 --> 00:07:22,508.33433333 In COVID the warm and fuzzy feeling. 77 00:07:22,508.33433333 --> 00:07:25,718.33433333 And it seems like we're transitioning away from it. 78 00:07:26,108.33433333 --> 00:07:53,788.33433333 And I think that is actually one of the reasons I'm excited to have you on today is because you frame leadership, not just in terms of decision making, but how we manage complexity and when you're talking about paradoxes competing truths that leaders can't just solve for, can you break that down for our audience? What is a leadership paradox? I am gonna point to some pretty deep theoretical research on paradox theory and then on polarity management. 79 00:07:53,788.33433333 --> 00:07:55,948.33433333 So I certainly am standing on shoulders of. 80 00:07:56,283.33433333 --> 00:08:02,83.33433333 Other people, and I think it actually goes, all the way down the rabbit hole to like Kiko guard. 81 00:08:02,113.33433333 --> 00:08:13,433.33433333 If you wanna point to where the paradox starts from my understanding of paradoxes and polarities are situations that are ongoing unsolvable with seemingly opposing sides. 82 00:08:13,733.33433333 --> 00:08:21,263.33433333 Stability, change, focus, flexibility at now later and whenever there's a situation where. 83 00:08:22,13.33433333 --> 00:08:25,793.33433333 It's not a problem to be solved, but like both sides will come into play. 84 00:08:26,573.33433333 --> 00:08:32,783.33433333 The natural tendency is to bounce like a wrecking ball from one to the next, let's say centralization, decentralization. 85 00:08:33,143.33433333 --> 00:08:38,843.33433333 Let's have business units and we'll have GMs for those business units and eventually we'll centralize and we go back and forth. 86 00:08:39,323.33433333 --> 00:08:46,23.33433333 If you look at it in the political landscape, aggressively breaking things as we move, and then all the way back to the other side and back and forth. 87 00:08:46,143.33433333 --> 00:08:51,903.33433333 and so instead of problems to be solved, these are tensions where both are required. 88 00:08:52,383.33433333 --> 00:08:59,993.33433333 And I came to this sort of realization after making several mistakes when I thought my way was the only way. 89 00:09:00,683.33433333 --> 00:09:05,293.33433333 And I started to realize that, Maybe I'm right and wrong at the same time. 90 00:09:06,608.33433333 --> 00:09:09,598.33433333 Yeah, there's no clear black and white answer. 91 00:09:09,708.33433333 --> 00:09:35,448.33433333 One of the things I think that, that are right and wrong, that people struggle with, what if both sides are right? How do they get unstuck? If you think about sales, marketing, or sales and product, maybe you've worked with some folks that have had those experiences where they both are, right? What do you do? Personally, I often feel like I'm right, is a dangerous place to be like built in based on lots of hubris in private school. 92 00:09:35,508.33433333 --> 00:09:40,988.33433333 So I have to make sure that first I need to check my own hubris and realize that I'm not that smart. 93 00:09:41,18.33433333 --> 00:09:44,648.33433333 There are a lot of smart people out there and there's probably value in a different opinion. 94 00:09:45,338.33433333 --> 00:10:00,188.33433333 I think the first thing, when I use Barry Johnson's polarity management approach often, and what starts with, you have to define the polls properly, right? So if you say originally I'd say there's focus and disorganized work immediately. 95 00:10:00,188.33433333 --> 00:10:01,688.33433333 It's discounting the other side. 96 00:10:02,108.33433333 --> 00:10:04,28.33433333 If I say, maybe there's focus. 97 00:10:04,403.33433333 --> 00:10:17,3.33433333 A few core things over the course of six months to guide our strategy versus something like adaptability where we need to be fresh and recycle and treat strategy like gonna the optometrists office where we try a few things and we learn by doing. 98 00:10:17,483.33433333 --> 00:10:21,113.33433333 There's value in both sides and both are neutral to positive. 99 00:10:21,252.08433333 --> 00:10:22,343.33433333 focus sounds like a good thing. 100 00:10:22,403.33433333 --> 00:10:24,563.33433333 Adaptability sounds like a good thing then. 101 00:10:24,563.33433333 --> 00:10:30,343.33433333 And only then can we start, so framing the paradox in a positive or neutral way. 102 00:10:30,343.33433333 --> 00:10:38,143.33433333 First is the beginning start, and then depending on who's having the conversation, I like to be mindful with where I'm starting. 103 00:10:38,143.33433333 --> 00:10:41,33.33433333 So I might start with the upside of the thing. 104 00:10:41,33.33433333 --> 00:10:42,23.33433333 I don't believe in. 105 00:10:43,3.33433333 --> 00:10:49,513.33433333 For example, in my TEDx, I talk a little bit about the upside of flexibility and I had to bite my tongue a little bit. 106 00:10:50,413.33433333 --> 00:10:54,334.58433333 And what I discovered though is that lights the other side up. 107 00:10:54,823.33433333 --> 00:11:03,693.33433333 So get over my hubris and then make sure I start with evaluating the good parts of the side I don't believe in, and that's hard. 108 00:11:04,213.33433333 --> 00:11:09,603.33433333 The thing that got me interested about the entire concept of polarity management was when I was reading. 109 00:11:10,398.33433333 --> 00:11:19,8.33433333 An article to it was called Toward a Theory of Paradox, and there was a phrase in there I had never heard before, which was emotional equanimity. 110 00:11:19,788.33433333 --> 00:11:30,498.33433333 And I had to go look it up and Google told me that it was a bit about the calm and the ability to handle, the ups and downs and challenges without overreacting emotionally. 111 00:11:30,888.33433333 --> 00:11:32,838.33433333 And I realized that was a learning edge for me. 112 00:11:33,498.33433333 --> 00:11:37,368.33433333 So I can't even engage in the conversation if I can't slow things down. 113 00:11:37,758.33433333 --> 00:11:42,948.33433333 And recognize that, okay, focus and flexibility, it's not a life or death situation. 114 00:11:43,368.33433333 --> 00:11:45,78.33433333 Let's take a breath and let's slow down. 115 00:11:45,538.33433333 --> 00:11:48,868.33433333 Starting with the other side and just getting over yourself a little bit. 116 00:11:49,658.33433333 --> 00:12:02,78.33433333 And what's interesting you bring up is the seeing the other side, but seeing the neutral positive in today's world, it's like you have your feed of things that are just gonna reinforce your own opinion. 117 00:12:02,318.33433333 --> 00:12:05,918.33433333 And I was gonna say, if you wanna feel good about yourself, just go on Chad PT. 118 00:12:05,918.33433333 --> 00:12:09,518.33433333 It'll make you feel like you're the most brilliant person ever unless you tell it not to. 119 00:12:10,28.33433333 --> 00:12:11,288.33433333 And I think that's a thing that. 120 00:12:11,618.33433333 --> 00:12:21,678.33433333 Leaders now you have, every CEO going to, to Chachi PT and validating what they think and could be dangerous or, could limit that. 121 00:12:22,168.33433333 --> 00:12:23,128.33433333 Seeing both sides. 122 00:12:23,453.33433333 --> 00:12:30,23.33433333 I agree with you and I think one of the reasons I'm able to play a little bit in the middle space is because I am a walking paradox. 123 00:12:30,23.33433333 --> 00:12:39,13.33433333 Lived on the East coast and west coast army guy you mentioned, US Cavalry, who's also a girl, dad and I think that allows me to play in the middle sometimes. 124 00:12:39,13.33433333 --> 00:12:40,982.08433333 I worked for a company in Texas. 125 00:12:45,992.08433333 --> 00:12:56,382.08433333 And as a veteran, I usually get some assumptions made that oh, because veteran, he's gonna be autocratic, he's gonna be dictatorial he's gonna be in your face and he's also gonna be like a gun nut. 126 00:12:56,932.08433333 --> 00:13:06,382.08433333 So when I talk to people in Texas who know that I served and might be pro-gun, I am allowed to play in the space with them for a little bit. 127 00:13:06,382.08433333 --> 00:13:09,262.08433333 Before this, the reaction to, wait a minute, you're not this way. 128 00:13:09,502.08433333 --> 00:13:17,802.08433333 So whatever people believe about guns, religion, et cetera, people make assumptions about who I am based on things that have happened in my life. 129 00:13:18,12.08433333 --> 00:13:20,307.08433333 And what I found is that there are some interesting. 130 00:13:21,187.08433333 --> 00:13:30,247.08433333 Points of view in that middle space, and it almost feels at least not to get political, but does feel like there's like a radical center that isn't that far apart from each other. 131 00:13:30,397.08433333 --> 00:13:35,37.08433333 But we have the polls that dominate media that we react to emotionally. 132 00:13:35,127.08433333 --> 00:13:37,347.08433333 And I like to play in the middle space. 133 00:13:38,442.08433333 --> 00:13:38,562.08433333 Yeah. 134 00:13:38,562.08433333 --> 00:13:44,812.08433333 I think that's a interesting challenge though, to think, whether it's personally or at work. 135 00:13:44,862.08433333 --> 00:13:53,82.08433333 We're very pro ai, right? Like we're, we believe that AI is the future of how work's going to be done, but there's another side of that, right? There's another view. 136 00:13:53,262.08433333 --> 00:14:02,432.08433333 And it is interesting to be like, okay, what does it look like if I try to play in that space? And what are the pros of, not leveraging ai, though I'm still pretty grounded in my belief that AI is the future. 137 00:14:02,432.08433333 --> 00:14:04,112.08433333 Of course you would be right. 138 00:14:04,112.08433333 --> 00:14:13,572.08433333 But I think the ai, no, ai, it's AI and insert other neutral, positively charged pole that other people believe in. 139 00:14:14,137.08433333 --> 00:14:17,107.08433333 And I think that's the thing that would have to you'd have to play with a little bit. 140 00:14:18,612.08433333 --> 00:14:26,832.08433333 Erin and I talked to, A-C-M-O-A couple weeks ago, and they were talking about some of the challenges that they're experiencing just because a lot of things you mentioned. 141 00:14:27,297.08433333 --> 00:14:28,647.08433333 A lot of things are in flux. 142 00:14:28,647.08433333 --> 00:14:33,407.08433333 Decisions are hard to be made, and they're, they feel like they're being pulled in opposing directions. 143 00:14:33,637.08433333 --> 00:14:41,117.08433333 How do you scale a business while keeping your marketing personalized? We need to do faster, but we also have to ensure we have trust with our customers. 144 00:14:41,307.08433333 --> 00:14:47,907.08433333 I'm wondering how you would recommend a leader to start reframing those moments versus saying I have to move fast. 145 00:14:48,117.08433333 --> 00:14:51,637.08433333 Oh, wait, no, I I've gotta I've gotta slow down and make sure my customers are okay. 146 00:14:51,647.08433333 --> 00:14:56,567.08433333 It can be Hard 'cause it's like the both end can feel like the gas and the brake at the same time. 147 00:14:57,17.08433333 --> 00:14:58,757.08433333 It's okay, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do both. 148 00:14:58,757.08433333 --> 00:14:59,897.08433333 Like I can't just pick one. 149 00:14:59,947.08433333 --> 00:15:13,456.45933333 I think the conversation I might have with some co-founders about, how should we approach our strategy? It's trying to figure out what's at play and I I'm trying to think of a good example, but if it's we're gonna grow this product or we're gonna do this other thing. 150 00:15:14,767.08433333 --> 00:15:35,362.08433333 walking around all sides of those to figure out like what are you actually trying to solve for what, what might happen? And are there good sides to both? And I'm not pulling a specific example here, but I know I personally had the challenge of, should we be focused on our strategy or should we be flexible? And I had a situation where like we had started to get some traction. 151 00:15:35,392.08433333 --> 00:15:38,452.08433333 I was utterly convinced that focus was the right thing to do. 152 00:15:39,322.08433333 --> 00:15:44,482.08433333 Had a pretty tough conversation with the CEO to convince him that this was the right way to go. 153 00:15:44,812.08433333 --> 00:15:48,442.08433333 And I firmly believe that, every day you start with your three things. 154 00:15:48,622.08433333 --> 00:15:56,422.08433333 You knock those out, you turn off all your notifications I turn those off and I do dedicated deep work because that is the right way to work and more effective. 155 00:15:57,895.20933333 --> 00:16:02,592.08433333 Sure, from my point of view and from everything I've read and, head of CEO is tinkering. 156 00:16:02,967.08433333 --> 00:16:04,227.08433333 Tinkering with a few different things. 157 00:16:04,227.08433333 --> 00:16:05,697.08433333 And I was like, why? I was very judgmental. 158 00:16:05,697.08433333 --> 00:16:08,267.08433333 Like, why are you working on that? That's not adding any value. 159 00:16:08,267.08433333 --> 00:16:13,607.08433333 Like we talked about the core, we talked about the focus, get back over here with me and my three things. 160 00:16:14,87.08433333 --> 00:16:21,107.08433333 And literally it was like two days later, the thing that he had been tinkering with, we immediately sold to one of our flagship clients. 161 00:16:21,227.08433333 --> 00:16:24,767.08433333 And because he had been tinkering, I was like, oh, so that's connected to okay. 162 00:16:24,887.08433333 --> 00:16:37,877.08433333 So when someone is pushing for a particular idea, often in teams executive decision making happens by either plop, which means someone says something, no one says anything, and they're like, oh, we're not doing that. 163 00:16:38,477.08433333 --> 00:16:42,947.0843333 Or one person says something and one or two people agree and everyone goes that direction. 164 00:16:43,187.0843333 --> 00:16:45,797.0843333 So spending some time trying to figure out what. 165 00:16:46,142.0843333 --> 00:16:48,242.0843333 Is the rest of the mood of the team. 166 00:16:48,512.0843333 --> 00:16:55,502.0843333 Are there any dissenting opinions and looking for that diversity of thought to then give the rise to, okay, we've got a couple things. 167 00:16:55,742.0843333 --> 00:17:06,637.0843333 How do we wanna approach those? Should we do this? Or is there a middle ground In the book, both end thinking, they talk about, mules and tightrope walkers, which I, it resonated with the metaphor. 168 00:17:06,727.0843333 --> 00:17:11,167.0843333 So mule is like donkey and horse put together to serve one purpose. 169 00:17:11,347.0843333 --> 00:17:17,807.0843333 And a tightrope walker would be, someone who artfully makes adjustments to the left and to the right to manage. 170 00:17:17,982.0843333 --> 00:17:19,452.0843333 Both sides at the same time. 171 00:17:19,662.0843333 --> 00:17:31,722.0843333 So in the middle space, sometimes we can come up with ideas that haven't been considered, but the problem is we have very loud, opinionated people making decisions fast and not pulling the other side onto the table. 172 00:17:31,722.0843333 --> 00:17:33,12.0843333 So it like becomes a competition. 173 00:17:33,12.0843333 --> 00:17:35,532.0843333 I think this I think this, somebody's gotta win. 174 00:17:35,982.0843333 --> 00:17:45,502.0843333 So it's what if we think both those things, how can we play with those? How can we come up with mules and tightrope walkers that might be more artful than just quickly picking one through a.voting 175 00:17:45,502.0843333 --> 00:18:02,257.0843333 exercise? you talk a lot about creating common ground, and a lot of times it seems like there isn't any, so what does it look like in practice for leaders? How can you create that alignment But, we'd love to get your thoughts on how do you get people to see eye to eye? The two things I mentioned, and these might be just me personally. 176 00:18:02,427.0843333 --> 00:18:11,967.0843333 When the trigger rises, I have to pause, and this relates back to that ability to self-regulate and we're in the EQ land a little bit. 177 00:18:12,567.0843333 --> 00:18:17,7.0843333 And I, and in my TEDx I mentioned the idea that once we start talking about. 178 00:18:17,397.0843333 --> 00:18:17,687.0843333 Doge. 179 00:18:18,917.0843333 --> 00:18:19,397.0843333 Immediate. 180 00:18:19,397.0843333 --> 00:18:23,57.0843333 It's oh, we're so fi, we're fine with firing half of the government workers. 181 00:18:23,57.0843333 --> 00:18:25,717.0843333 If we bring up the name, like people are triggered. 182 00:18:25,987.0843333 --> 00:18:30,504.5843333 If we talk about climate change, all of a sudden so the economy doesn't matter to us. 183 00:18:30,504.5843333 --> 00:18:31,944.5843333 Like we don't care about free market. 184 00:18:32,304.5843333 --> 00:18:40,524.5843333 And it's almost like we first have to get over ourselves and get over the emotional rise that comes when someone advocates something that we totally don't believe in. 185 00:18:40,824.5843333 --> 00:18:51,834.5843333 So I had to install a pause button for myself, and I had to identify the emotional triggers that I could witness in my body that would tell me that I'm about to react. 186 00:18:52,254.5843333 --> 00:18:54,114.5843333 And I was doing this on a run with a friend of mine. 187 00:18:54,114.5843333 --> 00:18:58,914.5843333 We're running along and we're talking about, as you do, talking about healthcare system. 188 00:18:59,364.5843333 --> 00:19:04,814.5843333 And we were talking about the polls we were discussing were, best care for the individual. 189 00:19:05,444.5843333 --> 00:19:08,24.5843333 And most affordable for society. 190 00:19:08,24.5843333 --> 00:19:09,74.5843333 Those are the polls. 191 00:19:09,104.5843333 --> 00:19:13,814.5843333 And then he got to a point where I think he was feeling like his care was gonna be taken away. 192 00:19:14,534.5843333 --> 00:19:16,34.5843333 And he said it's a pretty big system. 193 00:19:16,34.5843333 --> 00:19:20,324.5843333 How are we gonna change it anyway? And I'm like, we are the people that can solve it. 194 00:19:20,324.5843333 --> 00:19:21,704.5843333 We're too smart guys on it. 195 00:19:21,704.5843333 --> 00:19:26,684.5843333 Like it just completely lost my marbles and I couldn't hit my pause button and the conversation broke down. 196 00:19:26,924.5843333 --> 00:19:29,54.5843333 So being able to stay in the tension. 197 00:19:29,399.5843333 --> 00:19:34,169.5843333 Stay in the mess a little bit longer while someone articulates something that you don't believe in. 198 00:19:34,559.5843333 --> 00:19:36,239.5843333 I think that's the first step. 199 00:19:36,299.5843333 --> 00:19:40,439.5843333 And some of the other things I mentioned about finding the neutral deposited frame, starting with the other side. 200 00:19:40,439.5843333 --> 00:19:42,779.5843333 But for me, the pause button was the key. 201 00:19:43,259.5843333 --> 00:19:53,728.3343333 And I have a little shirt that I wore underneath my orange sweater from my TEDx that has a target in the middle, and one of my coach friends gave it to me years ago when he knew that's where my stress showed up. 202 00:19:54,493.3343333 --> 00:19:59,383.3343333 So it's the center of the chest clenching of the jaws, and I jump in and I interrupt people. 203 00:19:59,593.3343333 --> 00:20:06,463.3343333 If those three things happen, I know I have to find a moment to step back and breathe. 204 00:20:06,473.3343333 --> 00:20:22,3.3343333 I find that so relatable and it resonates with a lot of how I am seeing and hearing leaders talk about the pressure they feel under right now, where they're in conversations with maybe their board or their CEO and they're being asked to do. 205 00:20:22,258.3343333 --> 00:20:32,778.3343333 What sometimes feels impossible, whether it's do more with less, there's a lot of change in terms of moving, needing to move faster or who's gonna own it, sales or marketing. 206 00:20:32,988.3343333 --> 00:20:41,968.3343333 And I I do think it's a good call to for everyone, including myself, especially to take a beat and realize, okay, i'm sensitive if it's, we're talking about sales and marketing handoff. 207 00:20:41,968.3343333 --> 00:20:46,698.3343333 So I gotta make sure that I'm hearing the other person out before I jump in because it's very high pressure right now. 208 00:20:47,38.3343333 --> 00:20:59,248.3343333 I'm curious, can you tell us a little bit more like what inspired this talk and what do you hope leaders take from it? So the what inspired it? It started 10 years ago and my master's in org psych. 209 00:20:59,608.3343333 --> 00:21:04,933.3343333 The only reason I was going back to get my master's is because of a nasty comment a friend of mine had made. 210 00:21:06,73.3343333 --> 00:21:08,993.3343333 And I I was interviewing for these director level roles. 211 00:21:09,23.3343333 --> 00:21:14,513.3343333 I was on the train into Boston, and I said, I'm just not getting any bites on these director level roles. 212 00:21:14,563.3343333 --> 00:21:15,583.3343333 Take a look at my resume. 213 00:21:15,613.3343333 --> 00:21:19,333.3343333 And he took two looks at it, handed it back to me, and he goes, you never went back to school. 214 00:21:19,333.3343333 --> 00:21:20,53.3343333 You look lazy. 215 00:21:20,173.3343333 --> 00:21:21,13.3343333 The rest of us did. 216 00:21:22,468.3343333 --> 00:21:24,998.3343333 So that's a great example of Kim Scott's radical candor. 217 00:21:24,998.3343333 --> 00:21:28,208.3343333 Like I knew he cared about me deeply, but man did he challenge me directly. 218 00:21:28,208.3343333 --> 00:21:33,968.3343333 So a year and a half later, I have my master's, but as I'm going through the program, I met someone and I stayed in touch with her. 219 00:21:33,968.3343333 --> 00:21:35,978.3343333 We were like Nike running app friends. 220 00:21:35,978.3343333 --> 00:21:45,378.3343333 And so the long tail of the network she became, I think the dean of this particular school and she invited me recently to, to teach, and this was back in maybe last October. 221 00:21:45,378.3343333 --> 00:21:48,48.3343333 And she said, Hey, oh, by the way, we're doing a TEDx event. 222 00:21:48,783.3343333 --> 00:21:51,873.3343333 Deadlines tomorrow if you're interested, feel free to submit. 223 00:21:51,873.3343333 --> 00:21:54,783.3343333 And I'm like, oh, do I wanna do it? And so I just said, sure. 224 00:21:55,713.3343333 --> 00:22:03,153.3343333 And I submitted something that me and chat GPT made up the night before and then two weeks later was like, no, now you have to do a two minute pitch on it. 225 00:22:03,153.3343333 --> 00:22:13,293.3343333 And I was like, what did I submit? Then I came back in January and all of the other speakers were psychology doctoral students who were taking a course on how to give a good TEDx. 226 00:22:13,323.3343333 --> 00:22:22,585.8343333 And I'm getting emails from the professor that I'm behind in the homework and I got a zero and I'm like, what's going on? I just finished the i, thanks. 227 00:22:23,230.8343333 --> 00:22:23,470.8343333 Wow. 228 00:22:26,993.8275306 --> 00:22:32,21.3275306 holidays, so I like come back up to speed and I realize I don't wanna do the thing that I was gonna do. 229 00:22:32,111.3275306 --> 00:22:33,371.3275306 And the original topic was. 230 00:22:34,346.3275306 --> 00:22:39,56.3275306 How the combination of data plus emotional insight leads to long-term sustainable change. 231 00:22:39,86.3275306 --> 00:22:42,566.3275306 And I thought it was a great topic, but I just didn't feel like I knew enough about it. 232 00:22:43,856.3275306 --> 00:22:53,946.3275306 And as I continued to research, I ran into that Tor e Theory of Paradox article fell in love with the framework and then went deep down the rabbit hole of all of the research, all the studies. 233 00:22:53,946.3275306 --> 00:23:00,276.3275306 And I realized that over the last 10 years I had been doing a lot of work, like we believe in-person training and. 234 00:23:00,546.3275306 --> 00:23:01,56.3275306 Digital. 235 00:23:01,86.3275306 --> 00:23:04,956.3275306 How do we make it a both? And we want stability and we want change. 236 00:23:04,956.3275306 --> 00:23:09,426.3275306 How do we make it a both? And I think the origin for me was like Stephen Covey's think win. 237 00:23:09,886.3275306 --> 00:23:12,996.3275306 Jim Collins, genius of the, and so I improv. 238 00:23:12,996.3275306 --> 00:23:13,326.3275306 Yes. 239 00:23:13,376.3275306 --> 00:23:22,366.3275306 And once I found a framework that wrapped around it, I got passionate about the talk and I felt let me use a good personal example of when I screwed it up. 240 00:23:22,951.3275306 --> 00:23:28,501.3275306 To try to make it relatable so people can understand like, oh, when you get overheated, like there's a way out. 241 00:23:29,221.3275306 --> 00:23:42,451.3275306 And if you are emotionally engaged beyond a, what I would consider to be a healthy amount, there's another way to approach being humble, being curious, and learning how to. 242 00:23:42,461.3275306 --> 00:23:53,171.3275306 Harness the best of both and I think that army guy, girl, dad, being able to be both, like I'll go paint my nails, get my hair dyed, and then also have my saber hanging on the wall. 243 00:23:53,411.3275306 --> 00:23:54,821.3275306 I like that. 244 00:23:54,881.3275306 --> 00:23:55,841.3275306 Both can be true. 245 00:23:56,241.3275306 --> 00:23:56,531.3275306 Yeah. 246 00:23:57,731.3275306 --> 00:24:01,521.3275306 It's interesting because, I think the three of us share something in common. 247 00:24:01,521.3275306 --> 00:24:15,61.3275306 The idea of, being a leader or being a person in this world, there's a little bit of humility, there's a little bit of empathy especially as leaders showing up a certain way, but, it feels like right now, that people just don't have the space to do that. 248 00:24:15,241.3275306 --> 00:24:18,381.3275306 Like they're not they're not allowed or they don't have the time. 249 00:24:18,381.3275306 --> 00:24:26,1.3275306 And one of the things like they're just being asked to do more with less and do it faster and no room for error. 250 00:24:26,241.3275306 --> 00:24:30,951.3275306 And that type of pressure can break someone and they can break teams. 251 00:24:31,251.3275306 --> 00:24:38,261.3275306 And I'm curious, how would you what advice would you give to a leader who's experiencing that before they. 252 00:24:38,921.3275306 --> 00:24:42,136.3275306 I don't know, explode, like burnout, whatever words you wanna pick. 253 00:24:43,106.3275306 --> 00:24:43,406.3275306 Yeah. 254 00:24:43,406.3275306 --> 00:24:47,126.3275306 So I read once that unsolicited advice is the same as criticism. 255 00:24:47,126.3275306 --> 00:24:53,636.3275306 So with that in mind, I'll just be mindful of for those of you listening who don't want advice skip forward from this section. 256 00:24:54,156.3275306 --> 00:25:08,881.3275306 One thing I I learned in, my time at Bain and Company and how they manage their teams is we implemented something we did at the start of every meeting, which was just, what's your stretch? And if you consider that, there's eustress, good stress and then distress. 257 00:25:09,121.3275306 --> 00:25:30,391.3275306 So we would put like a one to five, where were you on your stretch? And if the goal is a three, I would be able to see, we'd put little faces on, if you're a one, you could say, Hey, who needs help this week? If you were a five, the rest of the team could say, what do you need? And if I saw someone who was a 5, 5, 5, then we could work on what do we need to do to readjust? I definitely believe in the quote. 258 00:25:30,391.3275306 --> 00:25:37,261.3275306 I can't remember where I heard it, but the only people that are upset when you set boundaries are those who benefit when you have none. 259 00:25:38,401.3275306 --> 00:25:40,771.3275306 And I think sometimes we can be our own worst enemy. 260 00:25:40,951.3275306 --> 00:25:47,221.3275306 And whenever I'm working with the executive and they talk about time management, I'm like, show me your usage on your phone. 261 00:25:48,491.3275306 --> 00:25:52,301.3275306 And if it's more than four, I'm like oh, but I use it for work. 262 00:25:52,301.3275306 --> 00:25:52,991.3275306 I use it when I'm right. 263 00:25:52,991.3275306 --> 00:25:53,231.3275306 Yeah. 264 00:25:53,231.3275306 --> 00:25:53,561.3275306 Okay. 265 00:25:53,951.3275306 --> 00:25:56,111.3275306 let's talk a little bit about where we can find time. 266 00:25:56,231.3275306 --> 00:26:00,371.3275306 And sometimes those like self-soothing activities of like scroll, scroll, scroll. 267 00:26:00,371.3275306 --> 00:26:01,181.3275306 There's a lot of that. 268 00:26:01,481.3275306 --> 00:26:03,281.3275306 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there. 269 00:26:03,441.3275306 --> 00:26:09,81.3275306 How much time, can I see your Netflix history? Like I can probably find a good amount of time in that area. 270 00:26:09,261.3275306 --> 00:26:14,631.3275306 And that's not to say that people don't have pressure, people don't wanna overwhelm, but if we don't have time to take a step back. 271 00:26:15,666.3275306 --> 00:26:20,766.3275306 Where's your time going? So team norms, boundaries, making it explicit. 272 00:26:20,766.3275306 --> 00:26:29,496.3275306 What are the expectations after five? Am I supposed to respond? Sometimes we will go to the responsiveness just because it feels good and we get that dopamine hit. 273 00:26:29,556.3275306 --> 00:26:33,216.3275306 But if we put our phones down, and I'm not trying to be like super old school about. 274 00:26:33,921.3275306 --> 00:26:37,761.3275306 Device use because I do tend to have the habit also. 275 00:26:38,121.3275306 --> 00:26:46,691.3275306 But when people are overwhelmed and people are feeling like they're about ready to bust, trying to find some time to reflect is important. 276 00:26:46,781.3275306 --> 00:26:48,971.3275306 Trying to make sure boundaries are in place are important. 277 00:26:48,971.3275306 --> 00:26:54,981.3275306 Having conversations about stretch with the team are important and, I do come back to that. 278 00:26:55,311.3275306 --> 00:26:58,1.3275306 What are my three things for the day? Yeah. 279 00:26:58,621.3275306 --> 00:27:04,801.3275306 So I'm a big fan of Dave Berry's meeting quote, and I don't think I'm gonna get it perfect, but his quote goes like this. 280 00:27:05,291.3275306 --> 00:27:14,441.3275306 Meetings are highly indulgent, self addictive activities that organizations and other large corporations engage in, only because they can't actually masturbate. 281 00:27:15,441.3275306 --> 00:27:22,211.3275306 So sometimes we have a lot of meetings with a lot of people and we have informs, but they're not moving the ball forward. 282 00:27:22,211.3275306 --> 00:27:24,61.3275306 They're not moving the needle. 283 00:27:24,81.3275306 --> 00:27:41,961.3275306 And I do believe in a well run meeting, but I think if your day is full of meetings and you're not getting any actual work done and the only time your work starts is at the end of the workday, are you okay with that? And I know that's like the way it is, I think that'll resonate with a lot of, our listeners. 284 00:27:42,51.3275306 --> 00:27:44,711.3275306 If I just blew up the tone of the podcast. 285 00:27:45,791.3275306 --> 00:27:46,691.3275306 Not at all. 286 00:27:46,851.3275306 --> 00:27:53,701.3275306 there's a, calculator at in past lives that Harvard, I think it was HBR developed about the cost of a meeting. 287 00:27:54,121.3275306 --> 00:28:17,726.3275306 And so you could even put in, estimate people's salaries and the time Did we get $10,000 of value out of this hour that we don't have any action items out of? I love a well run meeting, don't get me wrong, but if there aren't clear, actually I remember when I worked at Gallo, we had this meeting mechanics checklist and people got audited and people got like praise for well run meetings, but you could decline if there was no agenda. 288 00:28:18,506.3275306 --> 00:28:20,216.3275306 You had to have some sort of follow up. 289 00:28:20,426.3275306 --> 00:28:23,706.3275306 And it had to be clear that if you didn't have a role, you didn't have to go. 290 00:28:24,436.3275306 --> 00:28:26,636.3275306 And I took that to heart. 291 00:28:26,706.3275306 --> 00:28:31,716.3275306 So again, I like a well run meeting, but a meeting that isn't well run that people are just like sharing updates. 292 00:28:31,836.3275306 --> 00:28:33,276.3275306 I can read that on a mural board. 293 00:28:33,726.3275306 --> 00:28:36,546.3275306 I can read that in a five minute loom update at one and a half speed. 294 00:28:36,546.3275306 --> 00:28:37,996.3275306 I don't need to be there. 295 00:28:38,586.3275306 --> 00:28:47,666.3275306 So anyway, when it comes to that, I think some of those pieces can get us that time to take a breath, step back, reflect on how much work is coming. 296 00:28:47,826.3275306 --> 00:28:56,566.3275306 at the end of the year, nobody ever put in their review attended a lot of meetings and answered email, and yet think about the amount of time that we spend on those two activities. 297 00:28:56,866.3275306 --> 00:28:57,156.3275306 Yeah. 298 00:28:58,46.3275306 --> 00:29:02,546.3275306 I think that's part of what's interesting, right? Is like you have all these teams that are doing that. 299 00:29:02,806.3275306 --> 00:29:16,171.3275306 What separates good teams from great teams, and especially as we're under this big moment of pressure, how do teams stay aligned and just through this pace that keeps on accelerating, what's your thought there? I. 300 00:29:17,26.3275306 --> 00:29:25,626.3275306 When I look at teams, I'm typically looking at the level of business impact they have, the level of engagement they have, and then whether they're sustainable. 301 00:29:26,286.3275306 --> 00:29:28,926.3275306 So in the work that I do with Rally Bright, we will measure those. 302 00:29:29,736.3275306 --> 00:29:34,716.3275306 We'll diagnose what's going on, and then we will hopefully improve on a couple key things. 303 00:29:35,326.3275306 --> 00:29:40,146.3275306 great teams have a process for debriefing at a certain interval, whether it's six months. 304 00:29:40,896.3275306 --> 00:29:45,306.3275306 Every quarter they'll have a discussion of what's going well, what's not going well, and what should we do differently. 305 00:29:45,306.3275306 --> 00:29:47,196.3275306 And that's a bit of a lather, rinse, and repeat. 306 00:29:47,556.3275306 --> 00:29:51,876.3275306 And they spend maybe 5% of their time working on the team, not just in the team. 307 00:29:52,891.3275306 --> 00:29:56,641.3275306 That, that's one thing I see that they have some sort of process to do that. 308 00:29:56,731.3275306 --> 00:30:02,11.3275306 And for us, we use a measurement to do that so we can see how it's changing over time. 309 00:30:02,101.3275306 --> 00:30:18,921.3275306 And, as the team changes, as the market context changes are the, is the team's impact higher? Is the team's engagement higher and are they more or less sustainable? I found, a phrase that I liked once where duo is the strongest atomic unit of a team, and I like that. 310 00:30:19,236.3275306 --> 00:30:28,176.3275306 I think it was from the book Wired to connect and teams that have peer one-on-ones in place, so it's peer to peer exchange, not just leader to member exchange. 311 00:30:28,956.3275306 --> 00:30:30,356.3275306 That's a positive sign. 312 00:30:31,86.3275306 --> 00:30:35,136.3275306 So a lot of teams when I talk, I'll say, look, there's, I'll use a baseball metaphor here. 313 00:30:35,196.3275306 --> 00:30:54,791.3275306 It could be gymnastics or could be something non-sports, but it could be orchestra or play related, but like, how is the performance? Like I know that group and that subgroup is doing this and that sub, but are we winning? Are we not winning? Is it growth? Is it this? And sometimes there's disagreement on what the scoreboard says and whether we're winning or not. 314 00:30:54,791.3275306 --> 00:31:03,151.3275306 So I think the last one is, people actually know what it means to win, and there's some sort of visual way to see whether it's happening or not. 315 00:31:03,151.3275306 --> 00:31:05,311.3275306 Those are some of the things I've seen in great teams. 316 00:31:05,601.3275306 --> 00:31:08,401.3275306 I think the last thing I would just say is the laughter. 317 00:31:09,286.3275306 --> 00:31:11,566.3275306 I studied use of humor as a response to stress. 318 00:31:11,566.3275306 --> 00:31:15,466.3275306 And if teams are laughing, there's a little bit of light teasing, but it's not always at the same person. 319 00:31:15,466.3275306 --> 00:31:16,377.5775306 It's like back and forth. 320 00:31:16,826.3275306 --> 00:31:18,776.3275306 They're inside jokes and things. 321 00:31:19,686.3275306 --> 00:31:22,316.3275306 That is a good telling sign. 322 00:31:22,646.3275306 --> 00:31:25,566.3275306 I was with a team recently and it was somber. 323 00:31:26,656.3275306 --> 00:31:33,546.3275306 And they were arguing with one of the metrics we had and they said, oh what's the standard on this? And, aren't most teams in the middle? And I was like, I don't know. 324 00:31:33,546.3275306 --> 00:31:36,576.3275306 Like I've seen some teams come in the room and hug each other. 325 00:31:37,446.3275306 --> 00:31:40,116.3275306 I've seen some teams high five when they accomplish something. 326 00:31:40,116.3275306 --> 00:31:45,966.3275306 The mood of this team is measured, not good or bad, just measured. 327 00:31:45,966.3275306 --> 00:31:50,591.3275306 And I'm like, how do you want to be? So I guess I'm like a heartbeat of laughter is another thing. 328 00:31:50,811.3275306 --> 00:31:51,651.3275306 With great teams. 329 00:31:51,661.3275306 --> 00:31:51,781.3275306 Yeah. 330 00:31:51,781.3275306 --> 00:32:00,661.3275306 Switching gears a little bit, talking about AI and we have a lot of folks that are leading teams through this transition. 331 00:32:01,211.3275306 --> 00:32:03,731.3275306 but they're trying to drive this AI change. 332 00:32:03,731.3275306 --> 00:32:11,821.3275306 Especially, as investors and CEOs are pushing this initiative and they feel like this pressure to figure it out. 333 00:32:12,251.3275306 --> 00:32:20,981.3275306 And I'm curious, especially for those folks that maybe aren't as technical, how can they help their teams transition in this time? I. 334 00:32:22,551.3275306 --> 00:32:22,771.3275306 Wow. 335 00:32:22,856.3275306 --> 00:32:26,786.3275306 It's like just in that question I felt the pressure of figure it all out. 336 00:32:28,31.3275306 --> 00:32:28,251.3275306 Huh. 337 00:32:28,616.3275306 --> 00:32:31,466.3275306 I guess it's like, what is it Right. 338 00:32:31,886.3275306 --> 00:32:36,881.3275306 So I think sometimes there's like directional pressure we gotta do something with ai. 339 00:32:36,961.3275306 --> 00:32:48,211.3275306 Sweet, what's the first thing that we can do in test and put in front of someone? And I, I think maybe sometimes there's a pressure that we have to figure it all out and have a measured strategy for it. 340 00:32:48,681.3275306 --> 00:32:51,441.3275306 And sometimes I like to know where that pressure is coming from. 341 00:32:52,71.3275306 --> 00:32:56,291.3275306 Even when I read and you had sent me some information about someone who feels the pressure to figure it out. 342 00:32:56,291.3275306 --> 00:33:09,556.3275306 I was like, where's that coming from and who's applying that pressure and what is it needed? Is it the board? Is it the executive team? Is it someone who's just like anxious and needs to I don't know where that pressure might be coming from. 343 00:33:09,556.3275306 --> 00:33:12,706.3275306 So I guess with teams that are feeling like they have to figure it out. 344 00:33:13,186.3275306 --> 00:33:27,976.3275306 It's hard for me not to go back to my what are the three things that you're trying to figure out this quarter? And I think that is a very And I remember an equation like your throughput, how fast you get things done is directly correlated to your whip, your work in progress. 345 00:33:28,466.3275306 --> 00:33:39,356.3275306 And I may be a purist, but if you have a big thing to figure out, what are the things that you can figure out this week, this month, or this quarter? And I doubt that it all needs to be figured out. 346 00:33:40,166.3275306 --> 00:33:45,656.3275306 Something needs to be figured out in short order, and we can apply some pressure on testing and learning in that area. 347 00:33:46,136.3275306 --> 00:33:54,586.3275306 So maybe take a breath and figure out what part of it needs to be figured out in what timeframe, and then like attack that rather than ah, we gotta figure it all out. 348 00:33:55,86.3275306 --> 00:34:06,336.3275306 Yeah, I would say one of the biggest traps I'm seeing leaders fall into, and right now I'm seeing a lot of marketing leaders, unfortunately fall into it, is they're like, we've gotta implement ai. 349 00:34:06,336.3275306 --> 00:34:10,356.3275306 We've gotta use AI for this and this, and all across the board. 350 00:34:10,706.3275306 --> 00:34:12,56.3275306 But it's not related to a goal. 351 00:34:12,891.3275306 --> 00:34:20,811.3275306 And so you're just implementing AI for AI's sake versus saying Hey, like we have a conversion issue, or we have a efficiency issue. 352 00:34:20,841.3275306 --> 00:34:22,221.3275306 Let's solve that problem. 353 00:34:22,491.3275306 --> 00:34:28,851.3275306 And that's actually what a lot of the research is pointing to now, is that you don't wanna just say implement AI for AI's sake. 354 00:34:29,1.3275306 --> 00:34:33,531.3275306 You wanna do it, thoughtfully and over time and there's a change management aspect to it. 355 00:34:33,531.3275306 --> 00:34:36,171.3275306 So I very much, I feel your pain, Mike. 356 00:34:36,641.3275306 --> 00:34:45,921.3275306 It might be that like I'm a relatively goal directed person, but when I work with, coaching clients, like half of them are goal directed also, and half of them are like discovery. 357 00:34:46,731.3275306 --> 00:34:46,761.3275306 I. 358 00:34:46,761.3275306 --> 00:34:46,896.3275306 Learners. 359 00:34:47,136.3275306 --> 00:34:54,636.3275306 And so maybe there's like a both end here of we need to have AI initiatives that are connected to strategic goals and business impact. 360 00:34:54,636.3275306 --> 00:35:02,196.3275306 And we need to have the freedom to play and figure out what we're discovering and what we're learning to make it almost fun. 361 00:35:02,766.3275306 --> 00:35:07,386.3275306 I know my experience with AI has all been like trying to figure something out and I'm like, oh, it can do that too. 362 00:35:07,386.3275306 --> 00:35:12,756.3275306 And then I show it to somebody else and they tell me and they're like, have you tried this? Have you added? And then put it into this other agent. 363 00:35:12,936.3275306 --> 00:35:18,326.3275306 Like all of that for me is fun and interesting, but not necessarily goal directed other than keep learning. 364 00:35:18,386.3275306 --> 00:35:22,366.3275306 So maybe it's a, we wanna make sure that we're connected to very specific goals. 365 00:35:22,876.3275306 --> 00:35:52,891.3275306 Yeah, you've coached a lot through transformations and I'm just talking about technical ones, but cultural or organization, organizational ones, like what do you what do you think the through lines are that you're seeing with leaders who help their teams thrive during big moments of change? Like ones they're probably experiencing right now? I might say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk to think a little bit, making sure that there's a little bit of an identity to the change. 366 00:35:53,261.3275306 --> 00:35:59,701.3275306 If there's a project team, what are we all about? What do we stand for? I think that's important for teams. 367 00:36:00,211.3275306 --> 00:36:03,841.3275306 I think also building in like who the end user or the customer is important. 368 00:36:03,841.3275306 --> 00:36:15,311.3275306 I know one specific example when I was at at Bain account where we were doing a pretty large scale transformation project around digital learning and we had, archetypes, we had new Nikhil. 369 00:36:16,351.3275306 --> 00:36:21,341.3275306 We had Savvy Sam, experience Ellen and the mysterious Marina 'cause we didn't know how she learned. 370 00:36:22,1.3275306 --> 00:36:28,121.3275306 And what we did when we were doing a lot of our work is we had these like beanies for new hilel. 371 00:36:28,571.3275306 --> 00:36:30,821.3275306 We had a wizard hat for Mysterious Marina. 372 00:36:30,821.3275306 --> 00:36:35,981.3275306 We had these like ceremonies that would bring the customer or end user into the room. 373 00:36:36,811.3275306 --> 00:36:39,221.3275306 And I think that's what made something successful. 374 00:36:39,221.3275306 --> 00:36:47,226.3275306 We found ways to bring consultants who are on the beach or not staffed into our process, into our meetings attached for a week or two weeks. 375 00:36:47,626.3275306 --> 00:36:48,856.3275306 That's probably the biggest one. 376 00:36:48,906.3275306 --> 00:36:58,151.3275306 Who is the person who's going to experience or get benefit from? The eventual change and making sure that they're at the centerpiece. 377 00:36:58,781.3275306 --> 00:37:07,421.3275306 And we would run like mini hackathons and bring some of them in the room, ask them to serve on the advisory board. 378 00:37:07,961.3275306 --> 00:37:10,691.3275306 And I think our team had a bit of an identity. 379 00:37:10,701.3275306 --> 00:37:12,111.3275306 And we had some cash at the time. 380 00:37:12,711.3275306 --> 00:37:18,811.3275306 I think the last thing when it comes to teams is try to distribute the decision making. 381 00:37:18,986.3275306 --> 00:37:30,56.3275306 And we, I, in, in many of the teams I've had or I've led or worked with, I try to figure out can we make a decision making rubric that's based on experience and expertise and not a random title. 382 00:37:30,941.3275306 --> 00:37:40,531.3275306 So if it's a tech decision, can the tech person carry the day? If it's a comms decision, can the comms person carry the day? What are y'all looking at me for? I don't have the same expertise you have. 383 00:37:40,531.3275306 --> 00:37:43,441.3275306 If it's in this lane, I'm great at making the decision. 384 00:37:43,818.8275306 --> 00:37:48,971.3275306 If I need to help break a tie, I can facilitate a conversation, but more about this than I do. 385 00:37:49,271.3275306 --> 00:37:53,291.3275306 Or when working with teams realizing that like this deference to the authority. 386 00:37:53,936.3275306 --> 00:37:57,56.3275306 Just 'cause someone has a title means they might be a better interviewer than you. 387 00:37:57,56.3275306 --> 00:37:59,246.3275306 They might not actually have more skills. 388 00:37:59,456.3275306 --> 00:38:11,576.3275306 So I think distributing the decision, making power in such a way that people can make rapid decisions while maintaining a sense of shared consciousness of the identity or the objective for the team. 389 00:38:12,266.3275306 --> 00:38:20,996.3275306 Yeah, I find that interesting, especially the idea that just because the person with the most senior title is in the room doesn't mean that they know everything or have to make all the decisions. 390 00:38:21,296.3275306 --> 00:38:22,196.3275306 That's why you have a team. 391 00:38:22,406.3275306 --> 00:38:26,756.3275306 Erin, I'm curious, like you have led a lot of transformations like. 392 00:38:27,311.3275306 --> 00:38:32,291.3275306 Shifting BDR models implementing like account based marketing and sales initiatives. 393 00:38:32,291.3275306 --> 00:38:36,456.3275306 Like how have you seen success in transformations like that? I think it's hard. 394 00:38:36,471.3275306 --> 00:38:39,71.3275306 I've had I've had successes and I've had failures. 395 00:38:39,341.3275306 --> 00:38:55,321.3275306 I think Mike, to your point, it's hard sometimes when it's, when you're leading through transformation and everyone's looking at you for the answer and you don't have the answer, and then you feel inadequate or like you get the, like your imposter syndrome starts firing up. 396 00:38:55,891.3275306 --> 00:39:03,41.3275306 And so I think part of it is, making sure that you've, you're understanding the angle like. 397 00:39:03,481.3275306 --> 00:39:17,521.3275306 If it's BDR transformation, it's, are we, is it a conversion problem? Some of the things that you were talking about, because sometimes I feel like it's like transformation for transformation's sake can be just hard and also maybe unnecessary. 398 00:39:17,981.3275306 --> 00:39:23,461.3275306 I'm finding even now with the team I lead with ai I think it's play. 399 00:39:23,491.3275306 --> 00:39:25,201.3275306 I love playing with ai. 400 00:39:25,201.3275306 --> 00:39:27,511.3275306 I think that's part of the reason we created this podcast. 401 00:39:28,231.3275306 --> 00:39:40,386.3275306 And I think a sharp edge to understand like, okay, is the goal that we get more content done and then that content leads to more engagement and then the, Outcome is that we're trying to drive and there's such a delicate balance. 402 00:39:40,386.3275306 --> 00:39:48,56.3275306 and now even more with technology, it's even more of a challenge because it's moving faster than anything we've ever seen. 403 00:39:48,646.3275306 --> 00:39:48,936.3275306 Yeah. 404 00:39:48,941.3275306 --> 00:39:49,31.3275306 Yeah. 405 00:39:50,366.3275306 --> 00:39:51,326.3275306 It definitely is. 406 00:39:51,416.3275306 --> 00:39:54,416.3275306 There's a new tool every day, if not every hour it feels like. 407 00:39:54,866.3275306 --> 00:39:59,921.3275306 Hey Mike, I wanna shift gears a little bit and I wanna talk about Rally Bright So I'm their Chief Strategy Officer. 408 00:39:59,971.3275306 --> 00:40:00,1.3275306 Okay. 409 00:40:00,11.3275306 --> 00:40:02,201.3275306 So I wanna shift gears a little bit and talk about Rally Bright. 410 00:40:02,501.3275306 --> 00:40:06,671.3275306 You are Chief Strategy Officer for Rally Bright. 411 00:40:06,721.3275306 --> 00:40:14,86.3275306 Can you give us a quick snapshot of what Rally Bright does and how that ties into the challenges leaders are facing right now? Sure. 412 00:40:14,86.3275306 --> 00:40:17,116.3275306 The mission at Rally Bright for Simple is to improve teamwork for everyone. 413 00:40:17,851.3275306 --> 00:40:18,901.3275306 That's the main goal. 414 00:40:19,561.3275306 --> 00:40:25,236.3275306 And so what we've tried to do, and I joined two years ago, let's say, based on where we are now in the calendar. 415 00:40:25,266.3275306 --> 00:40:27,156.3275306 But I used it as a customer first. 416 00:40:27,156.3275306 --> 00:40:37,716.3275306 I was looking for something that would help me figure out like, are we living the values that we say, are we implementing the right behaviors? And it had turned out years in the past. 417 00:40:37,716.3275306 --> 00:40:43,526.3275306 I had done a little bit of like side work through Upwork for this founder and great guy. 418 00:40:44,456.3275306 --> 00:40:49,126.3275306 interesting mission that I was trying to figure out. 419 00:40:49,126.3275306 --> 00:40:53,856.3275306 How do you scale high performing team development? At some point you've gotta involve hr. 420 00:40:54,606.3275306 --> 00:40:58,506.3275306 Another point, you've gotta involve the leaders and the teams themselves. 421 00:40:58,866.3275306 --> 00:41:03,996.3275306 So what we do is we have a process and a platform to help teams measure, diagnose, and improve. 422 00:41:04,446.3275306 --> 00:41:07,986.3275306 So the way it will work is, we'll work with a team for six months. 423 00:41:08,296.3275306 --> 00:41:10,156.3275306 we start with understanding the context of the team. 424 00:41:10,186.3275306 --> 00:41:15,166.3275306 We run like a 15 to 20 minute assessment and they have dashboards and charts and graphs. 425 00:41:15,446.3275306 --> 00:41:19,166.3275306 each team has a set of strengths and a set of vulnerabilities. 426 00:41:19,536.3275306 --> 00:41:26,586.3275306 we'll workshop with the team to figure out what is the one strength you wanna sustain and what are the one or two vulnerabilities that you want to improve on. 427 00:41:26,866.3275306 --> 00:41:28,696.3275306 we have 250 resources. 428 00:41:29,221.3275306 --> 00:41:32,161.3275306 That we provide to help you on a common issue. 429 00:41:32,161.3275306 --> 00:41:34,141.3275306 Like my team has a lot of pessimism. 430 00:41:34,351.3275306 --> 00:41:36,91.3275306 My team has passive aggressive behavior. 431 00:41:36,91.3275306 --> 00:41:49,171.3275306 My team doesn't make decisions, doesn't pull through decisions, and we have a rally bot too, where we've uploaded all those resources into the platform so you can have a conversation that the bot knows your scores and knows the resource. 432 00:41:49,171.3275306 --> 00:41:59,541.3275306 So you can say, what should I do first it'll tell you, and then they'll put in place one or two actions, and then about eight weeks later we'll do a coaching session to check in on how things are going. 433 00:41:59,541.3275306 --> 00:42:06,591.3275306 We'll ask one question, which is how likely are you to recommend this team? Kind of standard NPS methodology? But it's a team promoter score. 434 00:42:06,591.3275306 --> 00:42:07,881.3275306 So we have a TPS report. 435 00:42:08,61.3275306 --> 00:42:08,511.3275306 Built in. 436 00:42:08,511.3275306 --> 00:42:11,441.3275306 For those of you who love office space, our founder has a sense of humor. 437 00:42:11,781.3275306 --> 00:42:13,731.3275306 We'll have a coaching conversation, another eight weeks. 438 00:42:13,731.3275306 --> 00:42:14,301.3275306 We'll do it again. 439 00:42:14,301.3275306 --> 00:42:16,581.3275306 And at about the six month mark, we'll do a reassessment. 440 00:42:16,581.3275306 --> 00:42:18,201.3275306 We'll look at where are you now. 441 00:42:18,771.3275306 --> 00:42:26,121.3275306 And what I love about it is inside the platform you can see what went up, what went down, and then how did you perform relative to the things you committed to. 442 00:42:26,856.3275306 --> 00:42:29,46.3275306 That's my favorite as an accountability guy. 443 00:42:29,46.3275306 --> 00:42:31,846.3275306 It's oh, so you committed these three, these two went up. 444 00:42:31,876.3275306 --> 00:42:32,416.3275306 Yay. 445 00:42:32,661.3275306 --> 00:42:33,826.3275306 This one went down. 446 00:42:33,826.3275306 --> 00:42:34,726.3275306 Even worse. 447 00:42:34,936.3275306 --> 00:42:38,326.3275306 What's going on with the team? And it facilitates multiple conversations. 448 00:42:39,346.3275306 --> 00:42:46,156.3275306 So you have the first workshop, we have a conversation after that TPS report after the next TPS report and then at the six month mark. 449 00:42:46,306.3275306 --> 00:42:51,796.3275306 And what we do is once we do it with a team, we then teach the HR business partners. 450 00:42:52,411.3275306 --> 00:42:58,51.3275306 L and D folks, HR folks, how to do the process, and then we support them with facilitator round tables. 451 00:42:58,661.3275306 --> 00:43:03,401.3275306 usually by the second or third time, a team has experienced the process leader can do it on their own. 452 00:43:04,511.3275306 --> 00:43:11,231.3275306 Once the leader realizes that they have all the data they need, and the team has the data they need, it's not the outside consultant's job to fix it. 453 00:43:11,651.3275306 --> 00:43:13,151.3275306 It's not hrs job to fix it. 454 00:43:13,151.3275306 --> 00:43:14,771.3275306 It's not the leader's job to fix it. 455 00:43:14,771.3275306 --> 00:43:17,201.3275306 Guess what? It's all of our job to fix it. 456 00:43:17,381.3275306 --> 00:43:21,331.3275306 What kind of environment do we want? And then we feel like we're on mission. 457 00:43:21,341.3275306 --> 00:43:26,441.3275306 I think that's actually such a key point, is the accountability across the team. 458 00:43:26,491.3275306 --> 00:43:28,806.3275306 I come back to this, solve it for me kind of thing. 459 00:43:28,806.3275306 --> 00:43:36,376.3275306 certainly when I was more junior in my career, I looked at my leaders and I was like you must know, and I love the, hey, everybody's in it. 460 00:43:36,506.3275306 --> 00:43:39,16.3275306 If you're not happy, there's a, get. 461 00:43:39,561.3275306 --> 00:43:43,51.3275306 Get your resources around and try to make the situation better as well. 462 00:43:43,51.3275306 --> 00:43:48,431.3275306 I feel like it that often goes I think it's just often missed and it's an interesting. 463 00:43:49,146.3275306 --> 00:44:00,906.3275306 Piece, but talking about and I think that also requires an emotional intelligence, both at the individual letter level, but having it be ingrained in your skill as a leader. 464 00:44:01,446.3275306 --> 00:44:20,746.3275306 What do you think emotional intelligence looks like in action for a busy leader? And what are some of the tools or team dy, team dynamics that you think about when you're talking to these executives? So I'm gonna break it down as I understand it, right? Self-awareness, self-management, relationship management, and social awareness. 465 00:44:20,896.3275306 --> 00:44:25,6.3275306 So I think when we're looking at group behavior, we got a couple things at play. 466 00:44:25,76.3275306 --> 00:44:31,146.3275306 'Cause if you think about a shark entering a school of fish, they don't all move as individual fish. 467 00:44:31,226.3275306 --> 00:44:32,816.3275306 They flock and they move together. 468 00:44:33,146.3275306 --> 00:44:37,286.3275306 So we have kind of group behavior and then we have individual behavior. 469 00:44:38,151.3275306 --> 00:44:46,401.3275306 I've had some experiences where I've been facilitating sessions, or observing sessions where the group moves as a group and people will say oh, I don't even believe in that. 470 00:44:46,621.3275306 --> 00:44:47,401.3275306 that's not me. 471 00:44:47,591.3275306 --> 00:44:49,151.3275306 You all just moved like that. 472 00:44:49,151.3275306 --> 00:44:56,322.5775306 When I think about emotional intelligence, we certainly have to what extent do I have traits and or personality. 473 00:44:56,381.3275306 --> 00:45:00,401.3275306 And balances that make me behave in certain ways, in certain situations. 474 00:45:00,401.3275306 --> 00:45:31,581.3275306 Do I take the leader role? Do I take the pen? Do I take the facilitator role? And in what context do I do that? And how aware am I about that behavior? And am I able to manage choices in certain situations, like I'm gonna participate more? Less you think about somebody who takes up a lot of airtime can you make that choice? And are you aware that you might be taking up more than one human being's worth of space right now? So I think that plays and then the ability to read other people's emotions and figure out, maybe make meaning of that. 475 00:45:32,196.3275306 --> 00:45:35,866.3275306 That's completely in play when it comes to group group dynamics. 476 00:45:36,6.3275306 --> 00:45:47,146.3275306 The thing I find interesting having done a bit of research on group dynamics is what happens when the anxiety of a group rises to a level where the work is no longer doing the work. 477 00:45:47,236.3275306 --> 00:45:49,846.3275306 It's a managing our anxiety and staying safe. 478 00:45:50,596.3275306 --> 00:45:51,816.3275306 That becomes interesting. 479 00:45:51,816.3275306 --> 00:45:55,796.3275306 Like for example, a lot of time they'll start to be dependent upon the leader. 480 00:45:56,501.3275306 --> 00:45:57,611.3275306 The leader will say something. 481 00:45:57,731.3275306 --> 00:46:01,191.3275306 What did he say? What were we supposed to do? That in facilitated sessions. 482 00:46:01,191.3275306 --> 00:46:02,991.3275306 It's like you, you all heard the same thing. 483 00:46:02,991.3275306 --> 00:46:10,791.3275306 It's like these are the three tasks, but there's almost this reaction to keep us safe, to not do the thing that's causing this anxiety. 484 00:46:10,791.3275306 --> 00:46:14,451.3275306 So there are all these different group related behaviors that start to show up. 485 00:46:14,481.3275306 --> 00:46:16,281.3275306 You maybe have two people start to fight. 486 00:46:16,641.3275306 --> 00:46:22,641.3275306 Everyone else is just observing the embodiment of the two sides of the team and the two people that are going at it. 487 00:46:23,111.3275306 --> 00:46:32,371.3275306 You see a lot of like flight from task where, we start talking about the weekend and bowling and oh, what kind of shoes did you wear? And it goes past the seven minute mark. 488 00:46:32,401.3275306 --> 00:46:45,351.3275306 And if you're a process consultant watching the team, it's does everyone realize that we have a job to do and that we're going deep in this particular topic? To avoid the thing that you don't wanna work on, that can be a difficult thing to say. 489 00:46:45,351.3275306 --> 00:46:48,351.3275306 So I think emotional intelligence plays a critical role. 490 00:46:48,351.3275306 --> 00:46:56,341.3275306 And when it comes to team or group dynamics sometimes the group moves as a unit, not as individuals. 491 00:46:57,1.3275306 --> 00:47:03,371.3275306 Being mindful of the role of group dynamics and the role of anxiety in teams can be a interesting thing to watch. 492 00:47:03,421.3275306 --> 00:47:16,401.3275306 Yeah, and the more I think a UC AI coming into play, EQ is going to become a critical skill for people working because the tech's gonna take care of a lot of the stuff that people didn't have to interact with people to get their job done. 493 00:47:17,151.3275306 --> 00:47:17,331.3275306 Yeah. 494 00:47:17,331.3275306 --> 00:47:20,91.3275306 What is the role of the NHT? The non-human teammate. 495 00:47:20,151.3275306 --> 00:47:25,736.3275306 When we come in, when we're all working with, a marketing team is working with a bunch of their own chat GPEs well. 496 00:47:26,771.3275306 --> 00:47:53,191.3275306 How can you train them all to have the common voice and how do we as a group leverage that resource to get better quality content? To your comment before about if we're trying to get more leads or we're trying to get more engagement how do we use a brand voice training? For that whole team and how does the team not necessarily use their individual chat GPTs on their desktop, but how do we do that collectively? I think that's gonna become interesting. 497 00:47:53,261.3275306 --> 00:48:01,821.3275306 I guess one thing as a relatively directive feedback giver, I feel a huge sense of relief that I can be rude to my chat. 498 00:48:01,821.3275306 --> 00:48:05,991.3275306 GPTI try sometimes to be very pleasant. 499 00:48:05,991.3275306 --> 00:48:06,801.3275306 I'm very thankful. 500 00:48:06,801.3275306 --> 00:48:08,31.3275306 But if they miss the mark. 501 00:48:08,751.3275306 --> 00:48:10,251.3275306 They make I'll give you an example. 502 00:48:10,471.3275306 --> 00:48:34,931.3275306 If I want a certain document and I say use this as the image and the output in the downloadable file is not even close, I can say, what was that like? Are you on my team? I can say things like that and maybe I'm revealing a little too much about myself and what I wanna say to sometimes my teammates, but I that I can be radically candid and it's not gonna get its feelings hurt. 503 00:48:35,976.3275306 --> 00:48:36,396.3275306 Yeah. 504 00:48:36,486.3275306 --> 00:48:43,136.3275306 It's so funny you mentioned Ken and I were just having a conversation about this a couple weeks ago when we were talking to another guest. 505 00:48:43,186.3275306 --> 00:48:44,56.3275306 Gimme something better. 506 00:48:44,826.3275306 --> 00:48:47,716.3275306 and I'm You, I am so alone right now. 507 00:48:47,716.3275306 --> 00:48:50,886.3275306 I'm like, Hey, I, you didn't give me what I was looking for. 508 00:48:50,886.3275306 --> 00:48:53,676.3275306 I think you should try again, and here's some constructive feedback. 509 00:48:53,726.3275306 --> 00:48:55,346.3275306 Which apparently doesn't work, by the way. 510 00:48:55,406.3275306 --> 00:48:58,406.3275306 AI does not respond well to being nice. 511 00:48:58,456.3275306 --> 00:49:02,386.3275306 You actually just get worse answers, so It prefers the clarity. 512 00:49:02,386.3275306 --> 00:49:04,606.3275306 And again, I'm poking fun at myself a little bit here. 513 00:49:04,606.3275306 --> 00:49:08,176.3275306 'cause like in my TEDx I did talk about me being like the focus monster. 514 00:49:08,716.3275306 --> 00:49:17,6.3275306 I always find that direct is my default, and so with a non-human teammate, I can just tell you the real thing. 515 00:49:18,131.3275306 --> 00:49:19,611.3275306 Yeah, I love this conversation. 516 00:49:19,611.3275306 --> 00:49:22,41.3275306 I think this is the stuff that's going to change. 517 00:49:22,141.3275306 --> 00:49:24,361.3275306 We're gonna be important with all this change happening. 518 00:49:24,811.3275306 --> 00:49:33,391.3275306 But to wrap us up, we like to do a quick lightning round where we're gonna ask a few questions and just get first thing that comes to mind. 519 00:49:33,421.3275306 --> 00:49:33,691.3275306 Okay. 520 00:49:33,991.3275306 --> 00:49:34,441.3275306 Oh boy. 521 00:49:34,921.3275306 --> 00:49:35,281.3275306 Okay. 522 00:49:35,701.3275306 --> 00:49:41,251.3275306 I'm the child of two therapists, so like it might not come to me fast, and I might overthink it a little bit. 523 00:49:41,431.3275306 --> 00:49:51,951.3275306 What's a go-to question you ask when a team is stuck? What's here? A book or idea that's reshaped how you think about leadership. 524 00:49:52,251.3275306 --> 00:49:56,131.3275306 Inner Game of Tennis because there's a passage in there. 525 00:49:56,131.3275306 --> 00:50:10,136.3275306 it talks about, how our job when we're teaching people is to remove instruction and increase the performer's ability to notice and self-correct, and that has dramatically changed the way I think about people learning skills. 526 00:50:10,146.3275306 --> 00:50:16,81.3275306 What's one thing you hope leaders start doing differently? increase the quantity and quality of feedback. 527 00:50:16,91.3275306 --> 00:50:21,711.3275306 what's one paradox you are still wrestling with personally? This is a good one. 528 00:50:22,591.3275306 --> 00:50:40,196.3275306 I might say ease and idol Oh Being relaxed and feeling like I should be doing something, and I think they both have a positive energy to it, but I'm trying to figure out how I balance those I like that. 529 00:50:40,246.3275306 --> 00:50:46,451.3275306 Yeah, between the office space, I was thinking about my red stapler and, Napoleon Dynamo dynamite quotes. 530 00:50:46,631.3275306 --> 00:50:47,351.3275306 It's pretty good. 531 00:50:47,381.3275306 --> 00:50:47,891.3275306 Pretty good. 532 00:50:48,101.3275306 --> 00:50:48,311.3275306 it. 533 00:50:48,776.3275306 --> 00:50:50,786.3275306 Mike, this has been awesome. 534 00:50:51,56.3275306 --> 00:50:55,956.3275306 enjoyed learning more from you and, thank you so much for joining us. 535 00:50:56,761.3275306 --> 00:50:57,931.3275306 Thank you so much for having me. 536 00:50:58,351.3275306 --> 00:51:00,141.3275306 Great, and we'll be right back. 537 00:51:06,731.3275306 --> 00:51:07,811.3275306 And we're back. 538 00:51:08,21.3275306 --> 00:51:12,836.3275306 Hey Aaron, what'd you think of our conversation with Mike? I think it's super interesting. 539 00:51:12,866.3275306 --> 00:51:21,216.3275306 Leadership is hard and it's a skill that you continually have to iterate on, and I enjoyed it. 540 00:51:21,236.3275306 --> 00:51:22,46.3275306 I learned a lot. 541 00:51:22,316.3275306 --> 00:51:32,396.3275306 I think one of the things I liked the best that he was talking about was the polarity piece, and seeing things from net neutral to positive when you have conflicting ideas that. 542 00:51:33,51.3275306 --> 00:51:35,851.3275306 Goes a long way, I think in resolving conflict. 543 00:51:35,851.3275306 --> 00:51:44,311.3275306 I've always enjoyed the radical candor philosophy, and I think this just adds another layer to it that I can use in my leadership toolbox. 544 00:51:44,311.3275306 --> 00:51:45,996.3275306 What did you like? I. 545 00:51:46,431.3275306 --> 00:51:56,161.3275306 We talked a lot about the pressure that leaders are under right now to perform, and when you're under pressure, you can crack a little bit. 546 00:51:56,421.3275306 --> 00:52:09,1.3275306 And I thought one cool way that Mike talked about how to center yourself and be resilient is his t-shirt story where he said, Hey when I'm in a stressful situation, I know I'm gonna be stressed. 547 00:52:09,151.3275306 --> 00:52:14,831.3275306 I wear this t-shirt with a target on my heart because it's a reminder from my coach to watch out for these triggers. 548 00:52:15,41.3275306 --> 00:52:24,721.3275306 And I just think something, that's a symbol that can remind you how to keep your cool and be and show up as a leader is powerful right now given how stressful things are. 549 00:52:24,921.3275306 --> 00:52:27,21.3275306 So I don't know how I'm gonna manifest that right now. 550 00:52:27,81.3275306 --> 00:52:29,61.3275306 I don't know if I'm gonna wear a shirt with a target on it. 551 00:52:29,111.3275306 --> 00:52:31,811.3275306 I'll let you guys know what I do, but I just thought it was powerful. 552 00:52:32,926.3275306 --> 00:52:33,216.3275306 Yeah. 553 00:52:33,526.3275306 --> 00:52:33,816.3275306 Okay. 554 00:52:33,876.3275306 --> 00:52:36,891.3275306 So we've talked about leadership, but now I wanna talk. 555 00:52:37,481.3275306 --> 00:52:45,341.3275306 Tech I've been waiting to hear and learn about your demo of Lovable, so do you wanna dive in? Yeah, let's do it. 556 00:52:45,371.3275306 --> 00:52:50,711.3275306 So wanna talk a little bit about a new tool I've been trying and it's called Lovable. 557 00:52:50,771.3275306 --> 00:52:57,371.3275306 It is a development tool and will design the front end of an app or a tool. 558 00:52:57,691.3275306 --> 00:52:59,881.3275306 Whatever your hearts desire essentially. 559 00:53:00,1.3275306 --> 00:53:10,241.3275306 Now this tool is similar to a cursor or some of the other there's other emerging tools out there that gives you the same kind of chat interface that helps you create an application. 560 00:53:10,511.3275306 --> 00:53:13,931.3275306 But I find from an entry point is a little bit easier and. 561 00:53:14,556.3275306 --> 00:53:16,566.3275306 Less technical than maybe a cursor. 562 00:53:16,566.3275306 --> 00:53:21,876.3275306 Now there's a lot that you can do with lovable, and there's a lot you can do with these other tools if you get stuck. 563 00:53:21,876.3275306 --> 00:53:28,896.3275306 One of the things that I've noticed is I can actually put it into Chachi Bt, or another LLM and have help me troubleshoot some of the issues. 564 00:53:29,106.3275306 --> 00:53:31,326.3275306 But today we're just gonna do a simple one. 565 00:53:31,326.3275306 --> 00:53:42,126.3275306 As I mentioned, I was getting asked a lot about how to prompt better, how to make sure that, I'm getting good outputs and so I thought. 566 00:53:42,591.3275306 --> 00:53:45,861.3275306 Why not create an app? And so you, you'll see my apt builder down here. 567 00:53:45,861.3275306 --> 00:53:51,61.3275306 I wanted to show you guys we're very used to at this point is, creating something from a prompt. 568 00:53:51,271.3275306 --> 00:54:01,561.3275306 But the other thing I think it's very cool is, and this is very common now among, amongst a lot of these tools, is you can actually remix other people's work if they put it up here. 569 00:54:01,561.3275306 --> 00:54:07,441.3275306 So for example, if I wanna create something like a personal ai. 570 00:54:07,746.3275306 --> 00:54:10,716.3275306 Engine, I can actually go in and remix it. 571 00:54:11,226.3275306 --> 00:54:18,276.3275306 And so similar to what we've shown you guys in the past with Claude Artifacts where you can take something, you can remix it, make it your own. 572 00:54:18,456.3275306 --> 00:54:21,66.3275306 There's a lot of opportunities here to be able to. 573 00:54:21,811.3275306 --> 00:54:24,931.3275306 Change something that somebody's already built and make it your own. 574 00:54:25,81.3275306 --> 00:54:28,831.3275306 And so I think that's a cool feature that lovable offers. 575 00:54:28,831.3275306 --> 00:54:34,381.3275306 And so you don't necessarily have to start from scratch, but there's also the opportunity to start from scratch. 576 00:54:34,381.3275306 --> 00:54:40,681.3275306 So in this case, we're gonna look and say, all right, how are we? Gonna create our own personal AI engine. 577 00:54:40,911.3275306 --> 00:54:46,241.3275306 Now this is cool because there's a couple things here where you can go and give it instructions. 578 00:54:46,241.3275306 --> 00:54:50,221.3275306 So let's say this is too dark. 579 00:54:50,311.3275306 --> 00:55:04,291.3275306 I want it to be rainbows and unicorns and speak to, I don't know, maybe. 580 00:55:05,966.3275306 --> 00:55:11,66.3275306 An influencer, TikTok, let's say. 581 00:55:12,786.3275306 --> 00:55:22,976.3275306 Now, what's cool is that you're gonna see that it's gonna give you this live preview, which can help you see where it's going, and you'll be able to take action from there. 582 00:55:23,456.3275306 --> 00:55:29,576.3275306 And so it within seconds, it has not updated the way I want it to. 583 00:55:32,576.3275306 --> 00:55:33,146.3275306 Oh, okay. 584 00:55:33,176.3275306 --> 00:55:33,506.3275306 Hold on. 585 00:55:35,321.3275306 --> 00:55:36,371.3275306 Oh, it's doing it again. 586 00:55:36,371.3275306 --> 00:55:37,91.3275306 God damn it. 587 00:55:39,911.3275306 --> 00:55:42,911.3275306 The problem is when I make it full screen, I can't see you. 588 00:55:46,151.3275306 --> 00:55:47,51.3275306 I'm still here though. 589 00:55:47,381.3275306 --> 00:55:47,701.3275306 I know. 590 00:55:51,886.3275306 --> 00:55:53,896.3275306 Alright, so we've given it some instruction. 591 00:55:53,896.3275306 --> 00:56:00,436.3275306 It's gonna take a couple minutes here just to synthesize what we wrote and incorporated into this app. 592 00:56:00,826.3275306 --> 00:56:05,56.3275306 And so it's writing the index, it's creating a full functioning app. 593 00:56:05,356.3275306 --> 00:56:07,956.3275306 And in this case we're going to. 594 00:56:08,931.3275306 --> 00:56:13,51.3275306 Be able to manage all of these different pieces that they put in here. 595 00:56:13,51.3275306 --> 00:56:22,691.3275306 Now I could also decide that I disagree, I want something different, or I want to use different, research and design strategies or whatever this may be. 596 00:56:23,101.3275306 --> 00:56:28,401.3275306 And it's gonna help to get something that's much more in line with what I'm interested in. 597 00:56:28,401.3275306 --> 00:56:30,651.3275306 So now it's loading and here we go. 598 00:56:30,741.3275306 --> 00:56:31,971.3275306 We now have. 599 00:56:33,111.3275306 --> 00:56:36,291.3275306 Unicorns and rainbows as instructed. 600 00:56:36,561.3275306 --> 00:56:40,831.3275306 And it's also gonna create a bit more of a, chat with your AI bestie. 601 00:56:40,981.3275306 --> 00:56:41,671.3275306 Pretty cool. 602 00:56:41,721.3275306 --> 00:56:45,821.3275306 Gives you something that, you can work and create a backend for. 603 00:56:45,881.3275306 --> 00:56:52,361.3275306 So you can hook it up to an LLM, but you can, do something within the app in real time. 604 00:56:52,931.3275306 --> 00:56:54,701.3275306 Pretty cool to be able to edit. 605 00:56:55,1.3275306 --> 00:56:59,101.3275306 Now, again, I might not like this the way it is, I can continue to give instructions. 606 00:56:59,311.3275306 --> 00:57:01,901.3275306 I can also edit right here. 607 00:57:01,901.3275306 --> 00:57:07,721.3275306 I can ask lovable to edit it, or I can even go and create something right from here. 608 00:57:07,721.3275306 --> 00:57:09,851.3275306 So let's say I want this. 609 00:57:09,851.3275306 --> 00:57:14,501.3275306 Instead of saying deploy, I want it to say. 610 00:57:14,971.3275306 --> 00:57:16,381.3275306 Reach or something. 611 00:57:17,161.3275306 --> 00:57:26,191.3275306 I'm gonna just click over here and it's gonna change it right in real time, which as we've talked about before, designer time is so valuable. 612 00:57:26,191.3275306 --> 00:57:32,361.3275306 So if you're building some of these little apps or big apps even being able to do this on the fly is pretty pretty incredible. 613 00:57:32,411.3275306 --> 00:57:35,51.3275306 That's remixing something that's already done. 614 00:57:35,231.3275306 --> 00:57:39,671.3275306 The other thing that's very cool in my opinion is going and creating something from scratch. 615 00:57:39,851.3275306 --> 00:57:51,481.3275306 And so if I want to create a, a brand builder app that helps people. 616 00:57:52,851.3275306 --> 00:57:55,341.3275306 Define their voice. 617 00:57:55,341.3275306 --> 00:58:04,341.3275306 So building on some of the agent work that Ken did last time, I can go ahead and put that in and it's gonna start spinning up a preview now. 618 00:58:04,911.3275306 --> 00:58:14,721.3275306 Here again I probably would actually take this into Chachi BT to help me write the prompt for lovable and then bring the, a much more meaningful prompt into the solution. 619 00:58:14,961.3275306 --> 00:58:30,141.3275306 This is gonna be pretty basic because I didn't give it a very good prompt, and so it is gonna look to implement different things which you know, is also helpful if you haven't thought through what your app could be, and so it'll build that and then you can edit from there. 620 00:58:30,141.3275306 --> 00:58:31,401.3275306 Pretty cool stuff, I think. 621 00:58:31,581.3275306 --> 00:58:34,191.3275306 What do you think, Ken? Yeah, I'm fascinated by. 622 00:58:34,211.3275306 --> 00:58:41,941.3275306 by I the idea of already like mixing up what already has been created and being able to tailor to your specific needs. 623 00:58:42,161.3275306 --> 00:58:55,131.3275306 And man, that spoke to me when you said, you know about design resources, not being able to do prototyping and build out mockups for things or mini apps, because I feel like that's something that constantly holds back development so it can move a lot faster. 624 00:58:55,901.3275306 --> 00:59:09,181.3275306 Yeah, and it's again, depending on your technical level, you can get cute with it and build an LLM hook into the backend and do a lot more with it than we are obviously in this example. 625 00:59:09,361.3275306 --> 00:59:14,751.3275306 And even the next example that I'll show you that I already built for the prompt writing, but it can be powerful. 626 00:59:14,771.3275306 --> 00:59:18,701.3275306 So you think about things that you may wanna put on your website and embed and. 627 00:59:19,446.3275306 --> 00:59:21,486.3275306 Send to your users to make life easier. 628 00:59:21,786.3275306 --> 00:59:27,216.3275306 This is gonna give you a nice opportunity to just build those quickly and on the fly and iterate fast. 629 00:59:27,276.3275306 --> 00:59:29,586.3275306 And so it's pretty pretty handy tool. 630 00:59:30,461.3275306 --> 00:59:30,831.3275306 Wow. 631 00:59:32,526.3275306 --> 00:59:37,566.3275306 So we're just gonna give us a second to spin up the app itself and then we'll be back. 632 00:59:46,131.3275306 --> 00:59:47,61.3275306 And now we're back. 633 00:59:47,121.3275306 --> 00:59:49,191.3275306 And you can see it's built a little app for us. 634 00:59:49,191.3275306 --> 00:59:54,951.3275306 Now again, doesn't have a ton of design here, but it has done something cool and that. 635 00:59:55,531.3275306 --> 00:59:59,581.3275306 It's already created something interactive that I can use. 636 00:59:59,791.3275306 --> 01:00:02,791.3275306 I wanna say business executive. 637 01:00:02,791.3275306 --> 01:00:04,831.3275306 I want to be innovative. 638 01:00:05,311.3275306 --> 01:00:14,431.3275306 All these sort of pieces, I can say, some of these, again, totally configurable, but already interactive and. 639 01:00:15,381.3275306 --> 01:00:16,401.3275306 It's gonna help me. 640 01:00:16,401.3275306 --> 01:00:19,221.3275306 I've, you can see I've got question six outta seven done. 641 01:00:19,461.3275306 --> 01:00:23,931.3275306 It is going to give me something that I can use, and so here we go. 642 01:00:24,861.3275306 --> 01:00:31,551.3275306 What is my brand voice profile based on just being able to click through very quickly and it's gonna give me some, do this, avoid that. 643 01:00:31,551.3275306 --> 01:00:32,31.3275306 Now I. 644 01:00:32,161.3275306 --> 01:00:37,441.3275306 Again, what's very cool here is you can download this, you can retake the assessment, you can share results. 645 01:00:37,591.3275306 --> 01:00:42,61.3275306 This isn't published yet, so you can certainly publish it, but you can add so much more to it. 646 01:00:42,91.3275306 --> 01:00:49,231.3275306 And with Ken's agent you could build that on the backend and it's gonna be, give it a little bit more of that AI power. 647 01:00:49,231.3275306 --> 01:00:54,781.3275306 This is obviously a very simple example, pretty amazing in less than five minutes. 648 01:00:55,71.3275306 --> 01:00:59,451.3275306 Yeah, this would take hours to build and I actually wouldn't even know how to get started. 649 01:00:59,451.3275306 --> 01:01:00,531.3275306 So this is a game changer. 650 01:01:01,341.3275306 --> 01:01:01,701.3275306 Yeah. 651 01:01:01,701.3275306 --> 01:01:02,781.3275306 And I did a quick one. 652 01:01:02,831.3275306 --> 01:01:12,791.3275306 As I mentioned, we often get asked about building prompts, so similar to what I just showed you, but I actually had fed it quite a bit of information, as you can see. 653 01:01:13,31.3275306 --> 01:01:28,651.3275306 And being able to configure it how I wanted to and have folks interact with it, gives me an opportunity to help folks who may be stuck in their prompting and, it's super interactive and easy, which is like the best thing is the ease of use. 654 01:01:28,651.3275306 --> 01:01:29,691.3275306 And pretty neat. 655 01:01:29,741.3275306 --> 01:01:34,931.3275306 and then, folks can copy, download, edit the prompter and use it in their everyday work. 656 01:01:34,931.3275306 --> 01:01:38,471.3275306 And so hopefully it helps, but very easy, very fun. 657 01:01:38,861.3275306 --> 01:01:40,811.3275306 And it's all about play these days. 658 01:01:40,811.3275306 --> 01:01:43,551.3275306 That was the other thing I think coach talked about was shit. 659 01:01:44,991.3275306 --> 01:01:46,521.3275306 That was the other thing that Mike talked about. 660 01:01:46,521.3275306 --> 01:01:53,481.3275306 It's all about play and trying to blend, play with output, and this kind of does both, which is fun. 661 01:01:54,206.3275306 --> 01:01:58,446.3275306 Yeah, I think that's the way that right now, given the pace that. 662 01:01:58,941.3275306 --> 01:02:13,521.3275306 AI is evolving and moving, like just getting out there and seeing what's possible and thinking about pushing the system as far as you can, the tool you're using, and then breaking it because then you know what the limitations are, but you're probably gonna able to get a lot more done than you think. 663 01:02:14,181.3275306 --> 01:02:15,651.3275306 I totally agree. 664 01:02:16,41.3275306 --> 01:02:18,741.3275306 And with that, wanted to thank Mike Sweeney. 665 01:02:18,741.3275306 --> 01:02:19,491.3275306 Our. 666 01:02:19,866.3275306 --> 01:02:31,586.3275306 Wonderful guest this week learned so much, and I think that soft skills is something that's gonna continue to be more and more important as we're navigating through this age of AI and all the change that's going on. 667 01:02:31,856.3275306 --> 01:02:35,26.3275306 So appreciate his voice and point of view there. 668 01:02:35,416.3275306 --> 01:02:38,746.3275306 Certainly Thank you to the listeners and folks watching online. 669 01:02:38,896.3275306 --> 01:02:44,446.3275306 Hope you learned something today and please send us feedback if you want us to try to do something else. 670 01:02:45,436.3275306 --> 01:02:45,796.3275306 Yeah. 671 01:02:45,946.3275306 --> 01:02:46,66.3275306 On. 672 01:02:46,66.3275306 --> 01:02:47,116.3275306 I made a weird face there. 673 01:02:48,586.3275306 --> 01:02:51,371.3275306 I, I lost my train of thought when I was like something else. 674 01:02:51,761.3275306 --> 01:02:55,361.3275306 And thank you to our listeners and those folks watching online. 675 01:02:55,841.3275306 --> 01:02:58,551.3275306 If you have ideas of what you'd like to see, please send 'em over our way. 676 01:02:58,551.3275306 --> 01:02:59,891.3275306 We're open to feedback. 677 01:03:01,91.3275306 --> 01:03:06,401.3275306 And if you don't mind, give us a subscriber, a follow and give us a rating. 678 01:03:06,701.3275306 --> 01:03:12,411.3275306 helps us get our name out there and helps us connect with other people who are curious about AI and go to market. 679 01:03:13,716.3275306 --> 01:03:18,726.3275306 So thanks for watching and let's keep crafting the future of go to market together.

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Pressure Tested: Paradox Leadership and AI Execution

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