January 6, 2025 • 46 mins
What is the best method to learn German? The two professional German tutors Michael and Alessio try to answer this question in this first episode of the German Learning Lab podcast.
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(00:05):
Hi, and welcome to the first episode ofour new podcast, the German Learning Lab.
I'm Alessio and with me is Michael.
Hi, Michael.
Hi, Alessio.
In this podcast, we're gonna discussevery week a topic concerning
learning German, or answeringsome questions from our students.
(00:26):
And the topic we're gonna discusstoday is, if it exists, and what it
is, the perfect, the ideal method,the ideal way to learn German.
We are both German teachers andwe created, produced, German
learning courses and products.
We're gonna share our experiencesand discuss these topics together.
(00:48):
Michael, do you want to say somethingabout the format of the podcast?
Yeah.
We'll just take thisquestion as an opener, right.
And then see where it gets us.
Usually we have longer discussions andthey really lead us into the depths
of the German learning experience orlanguage learning experience even.
Let's see where this leads us today.
(01:08):
I'm curious.
It's never clear where we end up.
So, exciting to be here with you.
Yeah, we don't have an outline.
We haven't decided beforewhat we're going to say.
We have this kind of discussionsprivately when we meet but
also to prepare our courses.
And we start these long, hour-long,discussions, and we decided
(01:28):
to start sharing them with ourfriends and students online.
So this is how this podcastis conceived, is born.
Today's topic, it's a big one justto, to start the conversation.
We don't expect to cover allpossible aspects of this big topic.
The ideal way to learn German,the perfect way to learn German.
(01:49):
We both thought about this topicbecause it's, um, it's a question
in the mind of many students.
I've been asked many times, Alessio,please tell me how should one learn this
language, which is also a challenging one.
Michael, what are your first thoughtsabout this kind of questions?
Well, it's actually a veryobvious and easy answer, right?
(02:09):
You just work withSmarterGerman and you're fine.
So we can stop here.
Thank you
for listening.
Exactly, found it!
Yeah.
How to start this,Alessio, the best method.
What would that mean?
What does it mean "the best method"?
That would be the firstquestion that comes up.
What do you think?
What does it mean?
(02:31):
Sorry, to give that back to you so soon,
but...
It's a good question, right?
So what the students want toknow is, what they should do.
So what they should do in order toget the best results in the shortest
time with the smallest amount ofresources, having the best time, right?
I think that from this point ofview, we actually can't find one
(02:51):
single methodology, method in thesense of some exercises, right?
This wouldn't work.
And I would even say for a specificperson, for a single person, that method
also doesn't exist because the personchanges and changes going through the
learning process of learning a language.
So, when you start learning alanguage, when you start learning
(03:13):
German in this case, you willneed certain kind of exercises
and a certain amount and a certaincomposition of what you're training.
But then when you are intermediate orwhen you're an advanced student, that
combination, that diet will change.
So, I think even for a single student,I couldn't tell them, well, this is how
(03:36):
you should train from now till fluency.
So, I think they're asking this,they're asking what you should do.
But the question (03:43):
"What is THE single method?"
is wrong.
But maybe there is an answer fora specific student at a specific
point of their learning career.
And that is what I, as a coach,try to, to help them find.
There's always a compromise, right?
Between speed and quality in the end,because sure, you can learn some German
(04:04):
very fast, but it might not be verygood German and it might not reach
very far, but you can also stretchit eternally, but then you might lose
momentum, and aim for perfection.
So, to me, the perfect methodor perfect approach would be a
compromise between speed and quality.
Like having, let's say 80percent quality, is a good aim.
(04:27):
Because perfection is killing everything.
And speed does the same.
Speed is not...
it's justifiable if you really just needto hack an exam, because you need it for
your citizenship or for an application.
But that's really the only momentwhen it's acceptable in my eyes.
Otherwise, a language is somethingto be enjoyed, to be discovered
(04:50):
and the discovery in highspeed, where's the joy in that?
So, for you a good method hasto be a balanced one, where you
meet the right trade off, right?
We have a choice, maybe.
If you want to do at speed, by allmeans, it's your decision, right?
It's not my preference.
But at least you, you have a choicewhere you can either run through things
(05:11):
and get the gist of things, if that'swhat you need, or one where you can
really go into precision and detail.
Also that might change one day, you mightfeel like doing something quick and dirty
the other day, you might just want to diveinto something and really feast on it.
Why not?
So, a choice is always a good thing.
I noticed also another trade off you werementioning, if I understood correctly,
(05:33):
the trade off between enjoyment andmaybe hard work and doing those kinds
of exercises which aren't exactly fun.
But which yield results.
And so there you alsoneed probably a balance.
And different peopleenjoy different things.
So, I've met students wholove to do grammar exercises.
(05:56):
They really enjoy just drillingthrough grammar exercises, which
is something I don't enjoy.
I totally enjoy that.
So, there is people withthis kind of, uh, pleasure.
And others who love to read.
Others who love to watch TVshows or others who love to
(06:18):
work on lyrics from songs.
But for others, that sameexercise will be toil.
So, we'll require discipline.
So, you have to find a mix which also fitsthe amount of discipline and the need
for enjoyment of that specific student.
So, the balance you're talkingabout [is between] also speed
(06:41):
against good foundations...
We spoke so many times about thistopic, that some methods can yield
good early results, so give youthe feeling of having learned a lot
in the first weeks, maybe months.
But they're not giving you thefoundations you need in order to
reach fluency and speak good German.
(07:03):
So, this would be awhole other discussion.
How this works and why?
But this is the kind of trade off.
if a student really needs to somehowbootstrap their German in a few weeks,
well, maybe it's better to go for speed.
The last point you have to elaborate.
What do you mean by that?
Well, I mean that some students werein a rush speaking German, and so they
(07:29):
weren't so interested in creating agood foundation to then learn German to
level C1, C2, academic level, and so on.
And my first reaction was, well,you could rush, prepare for the
exam and just learn what you need inorder to survive these first months,
but you will pay the price later.
Right?
(07:50):
But for them it was okay and [it] would'vebeen frustrating and hard to accept
psychologically or socially to put so muchwork in just building the foundations to
then develop a better level of German.
I actually would like to stilldefine "method" a bit clearer.
So, what I initially understoodunder method when I started this
(08:13):
whole journey was what I wouldcall today often, one trick pony.
So there is one thing there that theybloat up and say, this is the thing,
this is what you have to do, and it willguarantee you success in short time.
So, whenever something like that shows up.
I'd be skeptical least, not sayingit's not possible, but for example, I
learned something called the Birkenbihlmethod, which basically consisted
(08:37):
almost exclusively of translatingforeign text into your native
language, word by word, literally, sothat you can discover the structure.
That is one technique.
That's not a method.
It's a translation technique anda literal one on top of that.
And I believed that in the past.
I even translated the "10 commandments"or whatever into Turkish or the
(08:58):
other way around from Turkish intoGerman or English, until I realized,
okay, this is one technique that'snice in a context of many other
techniques that are well structured.
So, for me, a method is something thatdelivers a structure that carries me
on, that keeps me going and provides mewith just the right amount of challenge,
so that I'm not bored or overwhelmed.
(09:18):
Of course, a method cannot deliverperfect adjustment, no matter how much AI
you put in the title or on the homepage.
This is the wet dream theyare trying to sell to us.
Right?
And I believed it for a while as well,especially initially when AI came out.
It's interesting, because when you askme, I right away I interpret method as
(09:39):
a set of tools, of techniques, right?
And not as a single one.
But you are completely right.
It's the same thing that happenswith diets nowadays, right?
That you should eat just one thing.
You should eat just raw meat or justfruit or, I don't know, you should eat
just that thing or avoid another one.
There are also approaches basedon avoiding something, in language
(10:02):
learning we still pay the price forthe moment where we found out that
just learning grammar wasn't enough,but has been sold as: "you should
never learn any grammar!", right?
"Just, just practice the language."
"Children don't learn grammar!"
which is a bad approach.
Studies show that actually to learn somegrammar to a certain degree actually helps
(10:22):
adults to learn faster, better, and so on.
But it's the it's the same likegluten free diets or sugar free diets.
You have to take something awayand then everything gets healthy
or you have only to eat one singlething and everything will work out.
Well, if you have a gluten allergy,sure, you'd leave the gluten away, right?
So if you have a grammar allergy, leavethe grammar away and see how far you get.
(10:45):
But, luckily grammar allergyisn't too widespread, right?
At least physical grammar allergy.
So, you should survive if you're exposedto a bit of grammar here and there.
Try.
Ask your doctor...
"Zu Risiken und Nebenwirkungen.
Fragen Sie Ihren Arztoder Ihren Apotheker".
The most horrible example of leavingsomething away is this approach where
(11:05):
they teach you German using onlyGerman as an instructional language,
claiming this is the superior wayto teach you because you're always
immersed in the German language.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I know where it comes from.
It has very solid origins from missionarywork, because if you go to a tribe
in the Amazon jungle, then sure.
(11:26):
You cannot use their languagebecause you don't know the language.
So that's where it stems from.
And then someone had thegenius idea to make this into a
product and sell that to people.
And it is impressive that you canunderstand people without using a
single word in a native language.
But let's say after two to fourweeks, depending on the intensity of
(11:47):
your instruction, you will realizethe limitations of this approach.
And you will think it's your faultbecause I'm too stupid to understand
this because you know, there's a teacherwho has studied the art of teaching.
I must be wrong.
And this is where the misery starts.
What happens is that there is a goodcriticism or good intuition, but then
(12:08):
we overdo in a certain direction.
This is something studentsdo also on their own.
But this is something that the system,so our culture and our school system
and so on also tends to do a lot.
For example, what I observed about whatyou just said, learning a language,
only using that language, which ofcourse works if you're Italian like
(12:30):
I am, learning Spanish and French cansomehow work out, but try learning
Chinese or Japanese just using Chineseand Japanese, you will tell me.
So, why it works [formarketing] are two reasons.
So the first is that most of us learnedtheir first foreign language in school.
And in school, we have beentaught by non natives, usually.
(12:50):
For example, Italian teacherswho teach us English and learn
English in school themselves.
So, the pronunciation is bad.
We just learn by grammarexercises and so on.
We don't actually practice the language.
So when we come actually in touchwith the language, we notice this gap.
And so our thought is, oh, whatI actually needed was just to
(13:12):
practice, just to use the language.
So, if I had the opportunity topractice the language for day one,
then nowadays I would be fluent.
But the mistake there is thatwhen you notice that you missed
something, It doesn't mean thatthat was the only thing you needed.
It's like someone noticing "Ihave a B12 deficiency", right?
So, going back to diet.
(13:32):
So, you're missing a vitamin, and thenyou think: "Oh, I should have only
eaten that vitamin my whole life."
Well, no.
You have to add it.
That's right.
You have to add it, right?
It can't be left out but thatwasn't everything you needed.
So, yes, you need native speakers.
So, I'm not a native speaker, forexample, and I'm not a German native
speaker, so, with my students, Idon't practice conversation with them.
(13:55):
I don't do that kind of interactiona native should have with them.
But I help them to find ways to practiceGerman with natives because it's an
important part of their training.
But I would never teachItalian, in Italian to a German,
because this wouldn't work.
But the second reason why it works,I think it's because of schools.
(14:17):
Because it's cost effective.
Yeah.
If you are a German school, like inGermany especially, and you have...
Imagine you have 10 peoplewho want to learn German.
One is Italian, one is Turkish,one is Russian, one is Iranian,
one is American, and so on, right?
If you wanted to teach them usingtheir language, you would need
(14:39):
teachers who speak all these languagesand also are able to teach German.
But if your method is to teach Germanin German, you just need one teacher
who is German and speaks German andcan teach German and you can make one
class, so, squeezing all these peoplefrom different backgrounds, different
(14:59):
linguistic backgrounds in one class andlet this single teacher teach them all.
It's extremely cost effective.
But not for the student, just forthe school, because you can really
squeeze everyone in there, nomatter what, because they all start
from scratch.
If I know English or if I knowChinese, it makes a huge difference.
Yeah.
So, I bring different assets into thegame or resources, which are completely
(15:23):
ignored in this approach, by the way.
Yeah.
So, if I don't use English to teach youGerman, I count on you that you make the
connection between English and German,which not everybody really is able to.
Yeah, simply because of not having enoughpractice or education in this field.
It's a really hurtful approach.
And many people also think they haveno talent to learn German just because
(15:45):
they sit there and they think, "Oh,why do I struggle with this concept?"
"What is this with the articles?"
"Why is it so difficult or the cases?"
These are simple concepts in principle.
Of course they require practice and it'sa lot of information that you really
need to feed bit by bit to people ifyou do it all at once and you have a
couple of tables that doesn't resonate.
(16:05):
Ja.
So, I agree.
It's a an economical thing, whichis why it's successful, right?
Economy rules.
It's all about the money ultimately.
I'm not saying they're ill willed.
The schools do the best they canand the teachers are motivated.
I have really rarely met an evilteacher just some socially awkward ones.
No, teachers aren't the problem.
It's a certain system which developsbecause of economical reasons, right?
(16:28):
In this case...
I believed that in the beginning.
I started with Berlitz, whichmade this their main method.
So I started this.
I was fascinated by it.
I learned it in two weeks.
Two weeks!
Ja!.
And then I was put intoa classroom with people.
But in Berlitz, you just openpage nine and then you do the
method, which is just a set ofexercises, which are so repetitive.
(16:52):
And at one point you just get bored.
Also as a teacher.
Well, because we spoke of thisexperience, actually with the same
school, and I'm not, I don't, Idon't think we are telling any trade
secret here, so I think it's okay.
I had the same experience when I wasliving in a shared flat in Berlin.
I had a lot of flatmates.
We were students, and a lot of my youngGerman flatmates at a certain point,
(17:15):
started working as teacher for Berlitz.
And so they, yeah, they were just Germans.
I mean, they had nobackground in linguistics.
Nobody asked if they spoke otherlanguages, whatever, just native
speakers, young, 20 something yearsold native speakers and they have
been schooled for two weeks "howto use the handbook", right?
And put in classes.
(17:36):
But then, soon, they start coming tome asking me questions like, Alessio,
look, today a student asked me, whythis sentence and this sentence are both
correct, but so different, or why thissentence is correct and this is wrong.
What is this this tense?
What is the, what is a case?
Why do the declensions work like this?
And so I started havingweekly meetings with them.
(17:58):
So, like after dinner, we all met for acouple of hours where I was explaining
to these "teachers", who were "teaching"students every week, how German works.
They were the teachers, they werethe native speakers, but they
had no idea what they were doing.
Of course not.
Yeah, that's not part of your training.
No, there is no, no languagetraining involved there.
(18:21):
If you are a teacher in sucha school, that's the irony.
They make a lot of money with this, right?
So, something works.
It's a good business model.
Yeah.
And that's true.
So we're back to our question.
What is the perfect method?
So, after I want to, to ask youabout your approach, because you
produce also courses that are nottailored for one specific person.
(18:41):
You have this problem, right?
But because it's a problem.
How do I create a product which Iwill give to a wide public and has
to fit different needs and alsohas to be cost effective and so on.
The problem with a lot of coursesand methods and approaches is that
they will make most of the studentsunsatisfied or they will give a
(19:04):
product which is not okay for them.
So this is the problem I see.
And as a student, I stopped withlanguage classes right away after the
first attempts, at university even, Iwasn't going to the language classes
because I wasn't learning anything.
It wasn't interesting.
So, I started learning on my own.
(19:24):
I had to be my own teacher.
But I want to ask you because youhave way more experience with creating
courses for a wide public, right?
You don't, you cannot tailor classesfor a single student, but you
also have experience as a coach,coaching and teaching directly,
classes or single students.
How do you go about this problem?
First of all, you cannot learna language without a method.
(19:46):
You can learn some languagesomehow without a method.
Maybe some people put it together.
Kids learn completelydifferent than adults.
That's completely out of thepicture in case you think: "Oh,
but kids don't have a method."
Possibly they have, but theycouldn't communicate or they also
have certain development stages.
So, there is some kind of structure inthere, which is out of our influence.
That is a completely different topic.
(20:07):
The question is only which method you use.
So I just offer one method, whichis a collection of several exercises
or techniques that I have founduseful and efficient and effective
over the last 25 to 30 years.
'cause I've been learning languagesmyself because tried everything and
certain things I stopped after awhile, because I got bored with it.
(20:28):
I even now am trying Duolingo again.
I get bored very quickly, but Ican always squeeze out five to 10
minutes, refreshing my Turkish,which I studied back in the days.
I'm refreshing, notlearning something new.
So you're saying, you're using everypossible technique, even Duolingo, right?
Because you see, you see some useeven in Duolingo, in small amounts.
(20:48):
If I really wanted to go deep intothe language, Duolingo would stay
five to 10 minutes a day maximum.
I know I might be bored a bit of the time.
And it's a waste of time to travelback and forth, but if I have a
teacher that motivates me and havea group that I enjoy, then I just
enjoy the social aspect of things.
And that kind of connectsme with everything.
So, there is an upside to classes.
(21:09):
The problem is there is veryfew classes and few teachers,
very likely, in my experience,because I did 20 language classes.
I remember one teacherthat I actually enjoyed.
Maybe two in school, back in school, even.
My Turkish teacher was a delight.
What a pleasure.
And she used German toexplain complex matters to us.
And that is where all the lights went on.
(21:30):
It was beautiful.
It really helps you.
And my aim is, of course, thatat one point, the structure is
inherent, and you dare to dip outof the structure, go into the wild,
because talking to natives is fun.
I don't agree that youhave to talk to natives.
You can also learn completely without it.
I spoke to natives, of course, but myEnglish is basically based on watching TV
(21:53):
and working in English on the internet,and playing computer games, right?
But I started with, having agirlfriend for eight months.
That gave me a good head start.
But after that, I've never lived abroad.
I offer a structure and thestructure is flexible enough so
that we can adjust certain exercises.
We can make them more difficult.
We can make them lighter.
(22:15):
There is flexibility in there.
And I always help with that, ofcourse, because it's difficult to
do this on your own if you're notan experienced language learner.
Ja?
Don't underestimate languagelearning just because we learned the
first one by accident, or withoutour consciousness, because it's
an unconscious process, right?
Most of the time.
So, if I understood you correctly,you're saying your approach is to offer
(22:37):
a path, a structure in the sense of adirection, and an array of exercises,
of techniques, but then because they areonline courses, then the students can
choose, if they want to do more or lessof certain exercises based on how they
feel about it or add some other exercises.
(22:58):
Go out of the path and explorein the wild when they feel like.
Just follow the course, no matterwhat course and see how it develops
and whether you really have someprogress after a couple of weeks.
Right.
And if there's a problem, ask a teacher.
If you're in a classroom, you paya teacher to explain things to you.
And you cannot say, "Oh,but I have 30 students."
(23:19):
Yeah, but I paid you.
So many students, I haveQ&As right, like tonight.
So people come there and ask me questionswhile they're in the German class.
I said, where's your teacher?
Why don't you ask your teacher?
"Yeah, he doesn't have the time"or "I don't dare to ask them."
So, what the **** are you paying him for?
With teachers, the problem is thatmany teachers are lovely and motivated,
(23:42):
but they are often inexperienced.
They haven't learned languages themselves.
Yeah, I see a big gap betweenpeople teaching something they
learned and teaching something theylearned as children, but then they
haven't learned again as adults.
This is the reason why Iwouldn't even teach Italian.
I only teach languages I've learnedas an adult, because I really like
to have this kind of connectionand understanding, like, connection
(24:05):
with my students, understandingof what they're going through.
They are doing something Idid myself when I was 25.
I was 25 when I moved toGermany and had to learn German.
I really understand what it meansto be an adult learning German and
for me that is extremely important.
But I also learned other languages, right?
I keep learning new languages inorder to keep being in this situation,
in this learning experiences.
(24:27):
So this is something that you can dobecause you have online courses, right?
Because in a class it's harder.
If you do one hour andyou have 10 students.
The activity, the exercises,you cannot vary them too much.
You have to choose one activity, one setof exercises and everybody they're all
doing the same thing at the same time.
(24:48):
You cannot change speed, for example.
This is something I always noticed.
I was progressing faster than certainstudents or slower than others.
Think for example, in a class, youhave, an Italian, a Chinese, someone
from Holland, they will progress
at different speed..
The thing is, it's called"Binnendifferenzierung".
So, differentiation, but, itrequires a lot of skill, a lot of
(25:09):
ability to really pull this off.
And it requires of course,the right audience.
I can only speak from my experiencein all the language schools I
worked with and also the studentsreport to me what they went through.
It seems to be the exception tohave such a very well differentiated
class, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It needs a lot of looking and maybe thatbrings us back to the question, right?
(25:30):
How do I find the best method for me?
Right?
So, maybe we can start going inthat direction, because I think
a lot of students now will startasking themselves, "okay, but
how do I find the method for me?"
"So, what should I do?"
Okay, let's go backfrom theory to practice.
What should I do?
So, Michael, now I'm thinking about astudent who is starting learning German
(25:54):
right now, and is learning German in aworld where SmarterGerman doesn't exist.
We don't exist.
There aren't courses with a structurethat we like, that we created, right?
What kind of advice could we givethem, so her, him, on how to start
(26:15):
this process, start on this path?
What do you think?
What do you, would you say?
Well, I actually have to think backof my first experiences of learning
a language, right, which was English.
Initially, I did some Spanish, Russianthere just because I was curious, but
we didn't have the internet back then.
Keep that in mind.
I had paper dictionaries, and Ihad some books, which I could find
(26:38):
traveling half an hour somewhere.
And I had only one private channelon TV, which luckily showed
Star Trek Next Generation, inoriginal language, God knows why.
That was 30 years ago, right?
So, don't overthink things.
Get started.
Start somewhere.
Also, see what drives you.
(26:59):
Like, where is the fun?
Where is the discovery, the motivation?
Follow the motivation initially.
And at one point you will feel thedesire, oh, I need a bit more structure.
Maybe then you try a couple of courses.
If SmarterGerman is not around,then you have to try other courses.
You need to learn to listen a littleBecause like Alessio said, sometimes
you might follow some approachand it will not lead you very far.
(27:22):
And then you might be stuck.
Ja.
So like, let's talk Duolingo, aslovely as it is produced, it will
not get you very far, but it hasits place in a bigger context.
So don't get stuck on one technique.
You need to learn to speak, to write,to listen, to read, and maybe some
grammar might be good . So justtry to find a bit of everything,
(27:45):
ideally in as few places as possible.
Because, if you have five differentplaces where you have to do these things,
you're busy with organization a lot.
I don't want to organize things.
I just want to enjoy them.
I want to click and be there.
So that's the one thing.
So try to find a place whereall of these things are covered.
In the past, that was a coursebook by Langenscheidt or whatever.
(28:06):
In my case, they hadtexts, some exercises.
It was a good start.
And then at one point I startedadding real life stuff to it.
So, you can then watch real thingslike series, movies, you can listen to
podcasts that use the language naturally.
I do not recommend listening to podcastsor YouTube videos that teach you German.
(28:28):
That's a completely different topicthat we can cover in another time.
It's okay not to have theperfect approach right away.
It's a learning process.
You will, over time, optimizeyour learning process.
Very likely.
Very likely.
Yeah, it depends on, because if youkeep an eye out and you read experiences
and you look here, look there, maybe onReddit, then you will get an impression
(28:50):
of certain things coming again and again.
"Maybe I should try these..."
And be open, have an open mind.
Yeah.
I was thinking a student could ask, yeah,but how do I avoid being stuck with a
method which is not working and maybeI don't realize, or how do I avoid to
be overwhelmed by all these options.
(29:10):
Because maybe I find 10 different courses,maybe I find 10 different podcasts.
So which TV show?
If I start with the wrong one,maybe I'll have a bad experience.
So how can I handle this complexity?
That's exactly an example of overthinking.
Just do one and see how you feel.
Pay attention.
to how you feel when you do things.
(29:30):
And if there's resistance, itmight, you know, it's, it's a
little bit of analysis work.
Ideally, not everybody isnecessarily capable of doing that.
Maybe seek some counsel.
Yeah.
Alessio does counseling, I do counseling.
Just find someone that can alsotalk to you about it, that has some
experience with teaching and learning.
And there's lots of people sellingsnake oil, just be skeptical and
(29:54):
explore, but don't overthink.
Try and feel.
And again, fun and motivation.
These should be your guidelines.
If you're stuck, youwill feel you are stuck.
You cannot not feel that you are stuck.
You will have do trial and errorif there is no one around that has
25 or more years of experience.
Look for people with experience thatreally want to help you and listen well.
(30:16):
I think what you're saying resonatesa lot with my experience too and with
what I would recommend students to do.
Starting with experience exactly.
One of the first things I do nowadays- when I start learning a new language
- personally, so because I don't have acoach myself, is I start reading....
am available.
(30:36):
So you can teach me Chinese.
Nope.
No, I can teach you how to learn Chinese.
I can't, absolutely not.
The first thing I do is, to look forpeople who already did it, experts,
and start reading about it, about theirexperiences, trying to learn from them.
And not someone exactly saying,"Oh, I found this magic method."
(31:00):
As you said, right, there is a lotof advertisement stunts out there.
But, I look for blogs, can also be vlogs,you know, it can be YouTube, whatever.
It can be video, it can be a podcastof people who went through it
with success over a decade maybe.
Who became fluent and where Inoticed that are also people capable
(31:23):
of reflection, self reflection.
People who are commenting alsotheir mistakes, what they tried
out and it didn't work and why.
So in this way, reading and listeningabout their experiences, I learn from
their mistakes, from their attempts, andwhat their failure and their success is.
(31:43):
I learn a lot and I have betterchances of avoiding certain mistakes
myself, maybe, and trying from thevery start techniques or approaches
that maybe prove to be successful.
But, as you said, thisisn't 100 percent safe.
I mean, it doesn't assure100 percent success.
(32:04):
The second thing you said, thatyou have to try and, and see,
you said how it feels, right?
So, what results it yields, or howdo you feel when you do it and so on.
This is extremely important.
This is actually somethingI also do as a coach.
After the first meeting where I testthe skills of the student and I ask
(32:25):
questions, I got a picture of thesituation and of the person, often
students are expecting me to say,"Okay, this is what you should do."
So this is exactly what you'regoing to do for the next months.
This thing first, this thing second.
This many minutes per day andso on, but my approach is more
like, well, I would try this...
(32:45):
But then, please check howyou feel when you do it.
Just let me know how it'sgoing every week when we meet.
I want you to reflect andtell me how it felt and if you
notice it is helping you or not.
And it's very important that the studentslearn to reflect their own experience
but also to take control of it.
(33:06):
Because this is something I thinkmost people are missing because
we are so used to learn languages,and many other things, in school.
Where we are children orwe are treated as such.
We are treated as children who cannotbe their own coaches, cannot be their
own trainers, cannot reflect their ownexperience and make their own choices.
(33:30):
And people are also scaredof making wrong choices.
They don't feel competent enough.
And this is a feedback loop.
This makes them helpless, like unableto reflect and decide on their own.
Also this, the second thing yousaid, I think, It's very important.
Think about your experience.
What also comes to mind when you say thatis that I would always look for company.
(33:54):
In the sense of maybe a learninggroup, not that you have to do the same
level or the same stuff, just that youreally say, "Oh, I'm going to do my
20 minutes today, my hour tomorrow."
And we do it at the same time.
Or once a week we meet, we exchangewhat we've done, how we feel about
it - feeling is really crucial becauseyou might fool yourself if you don't
pay attention to your feelings, right?
(34:15):
You can say, "Oh yeah, but I didfive minutes of Duolingo today."
That's not learning.
So you're fooling yourself.
If you're just spending time on something.
is an absolute worthless value becausethe quality of the activity that you have
done in the time that actually matters.
And then of course, if you have highquality, then the amount matters.
(34:35):
So you need both factors.
Seek company because italso helps with motivation.
I have many onlinestudents, of course, right?
Because I sell an online course, butI have Q&As where you can meet me.
It's an in person thing.
Twice, three times a year,I meet people here in Berlin
in person, whoever is there.
And you can reach me in my community.
All these places where you have humancontact, even though it's maybe written
(34:56):
or video, this makes a difference.
Many people feel like, Oh, Iknow you for a long time because
they've seen me in videos, right?
A human factor in learning isabsolute key in language learning.
If I replaced myself or my videosand my courses with AI clones of
myself , even though they're excellentnowadays, you would feel this.
You would feel this in the long run.
(35:17):
AI still has to grow, but I'mnot even threatened by it.
Cause you will always feelthere's something missing.
Do you mean it's important to talk aboutyour experience, your learning experience
with other students or teachers alsoin order to help you reflect it, right?
Also, yeah.
Anything.
To become aware of it.
Like with any problem, it's niceto talk it through with someone who
(35:39):
has maybe a different perspectiveor confirms your idea, which
is also very soothing at times.
This is something that I don't like bysome, teachers, influencers, polyglots,
I don't know how to call them, on socialmedia, that instead of creating content
which inspires self- reflection, andquestioning and finding your own opinions,
(36:04):
they try to give you the opinion.
Also because they have to theyneed some click baiting title like:
"This is what you're doing wrong".
"This is how you make it right."
"Polyglot explains how you scientificallylearn languages", this kind of claims,
and then they are really teaching youfrom top down what you should do, and they
(36:26):
don't encourage, discussion, reflection,sharing, and this kind of process,
and this is, I think, is something weshould surely do in this podcast, right?
So our conversations isn't a way totell students what they should do, but
is a way to encourage this same kindof discussion and reflection we have.
(36:47):
So how many times we haddifferent opinions on how to do
things, creating courses, right?
I still remember the first timewe created a course together.
How many disagreements we hadand how we went about it and
learned from our discussions.
I think this should be animportant goal for this podcast.
Yeah.
Just to say, while I agree that there'scertainly people on YouTube, also
(37:10):
polyglots that might work this way.
There's also many who genuinely reallyexplore the language learning process.
There's some reallyinteresting ones out there.
And my favorite is SteveKaufman, who has been around
longer than me, even, possibly.
I find myself agreeing to him, eventhough I haven't watched much in
the past, but I know him of course.
He's someone with a long experience,so he already got that kind of wisdom
(37:35):
where he knows not to know, and heknows that there are a lot of stuff out
there, a lot of different approaches.
So he's he's a wise man.
Of course.
Don't fall for the"Marktschreier", we call them.
On the market, there's announcers.
They say "fresh fish, oneeuro fresh fish, one euro".
We have that around thecorner here, by the way.
And so be careful.
And honestly, anyone announcing anythinglike this, I wouldn't buy that fish.
(37:57):
No matter how fresh he says it is.
This is one thing to keep in mind.
So, it's not a particular group of people.
I said polyglots, but there's lotsof "teachers" on YouTube, which
honestly my heart breaks watchingthat because it's just entertaining.
And entertainment is fine.
But entertainment and teachingtogether is always a compromise.
(38:18):
So back to our students startinglearning German, I would recommend to
look for courses or teachers that giveyou the possibility to try stuff out,
first thing, and where the platformis very transparent about feedback.
This is very important.
I love to to read actualfeedback of actual students.
(38:42):
Also at the end of the course.
This is something, for example,I loved from your community,
SmarterGerman community, from day one.
That in the forums, you can readstudents writing long reports
about their experience when theyreach B2, when they reach C1.
So how they went through itbecause they're also celebrating
the milestones with the community.
And these aren't reviewslike a short review.
(39:04):
"Oh, five stars!", you know, on a platformwhere maybe, if it's your platform,
you can even, you know, erase them.
They are actually conversationsamong people sharing that
material, those courses.
So these two things, first, that you cantry things for free without any barriers.
(39:24):
And second, where the feedback system,the experience of more advanced students
is available to you in an unfilteredform, where you see also people who
say, "Oh yeah, I didn't like this."
So this is very importantto choose what you try.
Ja, ja, there's often people writing mean email saying, "Oh, I don't want to make
this public because it is a bit negative."
(39:44):
I said, this is exactlywhy you make it public.
Cause I can respond.
I respond to everything and I analyze andI talk about it and I ask questions about
it because often it is not that refined.
Negative feedback is actually incrediblyvaluable, for me as well as for you.
Cause it's you expressing yourselfand there is a preference in there.
I agree.
(40:05):
You should have the ability totest it also with language schools.
If you prefer class.
Why not have a triallesson or a reduced lesson?
Don't book six months right away, becauseyou don't know what you're getting into.
And you're stuck with athousand euro contract, right?
Test the waters, seewhether the vibes are good.
How do you feel?
Is the teacher respectful?
Are the people in class your peeps?
And don't be afraid to make mistakes.
(40:26):
If you realize you madea mistake, cut it, go.
Do something else.
Don't cry over lost money.
If you realize you have a six monthcontract and after the first month, you
feel this is horrible, get out of it.
The five months can destroy allyour love for the German language.
The money you can always remake, but yourmotivation is incredibly hard to regain.
I was thinking, how, how can we close?
(40:46):
What is the last thingswe want to discuss?
We started with the question: "Is there a perfect method?" (40:49):
undefined
We decided actually, no, thereare approaches, methodologies,
structures, exercises.
I think, we agree on these.
And we came to this point at the endwhere we gave this advice on how to
choose materials, courses and so on.
(41:11):
I think the last question we couldvery rapidly answer is "What are the
elements that should always be present?",so that the student has a checklist?
What is the minimal requirement forlearning German, in your opinion?
Very fast, you have one minute.
Reading, listening, writing, grammar,and a little bit of curiosity.
(41:36):
Pronunciation is includedin speaking, right?
So, these things need to be present,even though you might think, I
don't want to learn to speak.
Some people just want to read and listen.
Why not?
Why not give it a try?
It adds to the experience.
It gives a sensual experience,even over reading and listening.
Listening is also sensual,but speaking is...
everything moves here and I feel my chest.
(41:57):
I hear my voice just add to itwithout the pressure of having
to reach a certain level.
For German, if you have to putin order from the most important
to the relatively less important,these things you said, right?
For the first three monthsof learning, because long
term, everything is important.
First three months of learning,what are the most important
(42:20):
activities for a student?
All of them.
You cannot...
make...
You cannot...
No, no it makes no sense.
Why?
So of course you need tolearn vocabulary, right?
Even if you're listening,you need to know vocabulary.
You need to do writing, reading,all is part of vocabulary.
The question is, how doyou acquire vocabulary?
It's easiest by reading.
So reading.
actually precedes all others, ifyou ask me, and is a good source of
(42:42):
vocabulary and helps you in a way withlistening a little bit, because when I
listen, I can imagine how it's written.
So, reading I can do in front of myinner eye, even when I'm listening.
So there is a little of an overlap.
And reading is part of writing as well.
When I write, I read.
I would do them all balancedenough in the beginning.
(43:02):
That would be nice.
But if I had to choose, because somepeople maybe have to choose, right?
They don't have the time or theresources or they're very concerned
about one of the components.
Maybe it's not the most urgent one.
With German specifically, at least forEuropeans or for European languages,
people coming from European languages.
I would say the most important thingfor me at the beginning is reading
(43:24):
and listening Probably with Germanin this order because German has
a very specific structure which isdifferent from many other languages.
So for Italian speakers, French speakers,Spanish speakers, English speakers,
it's very important to read German tohave the time to learn where things go.
So reading is the most important.
Listening.
(43:45):
Then I would put speaking before writing,because I think that listening and
speaking has to be connected withoutdoing too much what you described.
So reading in their head, becauseotherwise pronunciation can
be tricky, what happens there.
And grammar, I would just sparkle a littlebit on top of it, like step by step,
maybe 15 minutes a day, not too much.
(44:07):
So this is how I would answer it.
The question is how youintroduce it, right?
Like you can write simplethings in the first lesson.
And if you, my writing in the firstlesson is typing things off the screen.
And remembering itquickly, short term memory.
You don't create sentences.
Same with speaking.
You don't have a conversation right away.
That's an overwhelm.
I totally agree.
These things have to be done very gently.
(44:29):
The speaking and the writing.
Absolutely agree.
Yeah.
Even listening.
Yeah.
I was thinking about someone not havinga course like SmarterGerman, right?
Someone who has to do it on their own.
So this is how I would prioritize thingsalso because I think that to become able
to read and to understand by listening isa priority then to bootstrap the language.
(44:54):
And a lot people focus toomuch on speaking and writing.
Actually, most courses, and in schooltoo, push too much speaking and writing.
And so people get used to it.
They want to be able to speak andwrite at the same level as they
understand, which is crazy, in myopinion, there must be a gap there.
So, you must be able to understand waymore of what you're able to express.
(45:16):
That's why I would prioritizereading and listening.
Many people think, whenwill I be able to speak?
I say, why don't you take six monthsof really getting the language in
first, before you try to producesomething complex yourself.
So, there's even a whole approachdedicated to this, which is called the
silent approach, which I don't agreewith because it's overdoing things.
But, yeah, that's the most difficultthing, the speaking, because it's daring,
(45:39):
it's fearful, because you speak, you,you present yourself weak, yeah, because
you know, you don't say it perfectly.
There's so many componentsthat come in there.
So I totally agree with yourapproach in this regard.
Yeah, I think we have to wrap it up,I mean, I'd keep talking with you.
Maybe we'll keep talking later.
But for the podcast, wehave to close it here.
(46:00):
I hope our listeners enjoyed listeningto us and maybe learned something or
have new questions and new thoughts.
I'm pretty sure.
From my side, I enjoyed our conversation.
We had similar conversations before,but it's always, you know, new
nuances, new elements in there,and it's, it's just a pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(46:21):
And what is the next topic for next week?
We don't know.
So we will surprise ourselfduring the week, finding a
topic and, see you next week.
See you next week, Alessio.
Have a lovely day.
Bye.
Hi, and welcome to the first episode ofour new podcast, the German Learning Lab.
I'm Alessio and with me is Michael.
Hi, Michael.
Hi, Alessio.
In this podcast, we're gonna discussevery week a topic concerning
learning German, or answeringsome questions from our students.
(00:26):
And the topic we're gonna discusstoday is, if it exists, and what it
is, the perfect, the ideal method,the ideal way to learn German.
We are both German teachers andwe created, produced, German
learning courses and products.
We're gonna share our experiencesand discuss these topics together.
(00:48):
Michael, do you want to say somethingabout the format of the podcast?
Yeah.
We'll just take thisquestion as an opener, right.
And then see where it gets us.
Usually we have longer discussions andthey really lead us into the depths
of the German learning experience orlanguage learning experience even.
Let's see where this leads us today.
(01:08):
I'm curious.
It's never clear where we end up.
So, exciting to be here with you.
Yeah, we don't have an outline.
We haven't decided beforewhat we're going to say.
We have this kind of discussionsprivately when we meet but
also to prepare our courses.
And we start these long, hour-long,discussions, and we decided
(01:28):
to start sharing them with ourfriends and students online.
So this is how this podcastis conceived, is born.
Today's topic, it's a big one justto, to start the conversation.
We don't expect to cover allpossible aspects of this big topic.
The ideal way to learn German,the perfect way to learn German.
(01:49):
We both thought about this topicbecause it's, um, it's a question
in the mind of many students.
I've been asked many times, Alessio,please tell me how should one learn this
language, which is also a challenging one.
Michael, what are your first thoughtsabout this kind of questions?
Well, it's actually a veryobvious and easy answer, right?
(02:09):
You just work withSmarterGerman and you're fine.
So we can stop here.
Thank you
for listening.
Exactly, found it!
Yeah.
How to start this,Alessio, the best method.
What would that mean?
What does it mean "the best method"?
That would be the firstquestion that comes up.
What do you think?
What does it mean?
(02:31):
Sorry, to give that back to you so soon,
but...
It's a good question, right?
So what the students want toknow is, what they should do.
So what they should do in order toget the best results in the shortest
time with the smallest amount ofresources, having the best time, right?
I think that from this point ofview, we actually can't find one
(02:51):
single methodology, method in thesense of some exercises, right?
This wouldn't work.
And I would even say for a specificperson, for a single person, that method
also doesn't exist because the personchanges and changes going through the
learning process of learning a language.
So, when you start learning alanguage, when you start learning
(03:13):
German in this case, you willneed certain kind of exercises
and a certain amount and a certaincomposition of what you're training.
But then when you are intermediate orwhen you're an advanced student, that
combination, that diet will change.
So, I think even for a single student,I couldn't tell them, well, this is how
(03:36):
you should train from now till fluency.
So, I think they're asking this,they're asking what you should do.
But the question (03:43):
"What is THE single method?"
is wrong.
But maybe there is an answer fora specific student at a specific
point of their learning career.
And that is what I, as a coach,try to, to help them find.
There's always a compromise, right?
Between speed and quality in the end,because sure, you can learn some German
(04:04):
very fast, but it might not be verygood German and it might not reach
very far, but you can also stretchit eternally, but then you might lose
momentum, and aim for perfection.
So, to me, the perfect methodor perfect approach would be a
compromise between speed and quality.
Like having, let's say 80percent quality, is a good aim.
(04:27):
Because perfection is killing everything.
And speed does the same.
Speed is not...
it's justifiable if you really just needto hack an exam, because you need it for
your citizenship or for an application.
But that's really the only momentwhen it's acceptable in my eyes.
Otherwise, a language is somethingto be enjoyed, to be discovered
(04:50):
and the discovery in highspeed, where's the joy in that?
So, for you a good method hasto be a balanced one, where you
meet the right trade off, right?
We have a choice, maybe.
If you want to do at speed, by allmeans, it's your decision, right?
It's not my preference.
But at least you, you have a choicewhere you can either run through things
(05:11):
and get the gist of things, if that'swhat you need, or one where you can
really go into precision and detail.
Also that might change one day, you mightfeel like doing something quick and dirty
the other day, you might just want to diveinto something and really feast on it.
Why not?
So, a choice is always a good thing.
I noticed also another trade off you werementioning, if I understood correctly,
(05:33):
the trade off between enjoyment andmaybe hard work and doing those kinds
of exercises which aren't exactly fun.
But which yield results.
And so there you alsoneed probably a balance.
And different peopleenjoy different things.
So, I've met students wholove to do grammar exercises.
(05:56):
They really enjoy just drillingthrough grammar exercises, which
is something I don't enjoy.
I totally enjoy that.
So, there is people withthis kind of, uh, pleasure.
And others who love to read.
Others who love to watch TVshows or others who love to
(06:18):
work on lyrics from songs.
But for others, that sameexercise will be toil.
So, we'll require discipline.
So, you have to find a mix which also fitsthe amount of discipline and the need
for enjoyment of that specific student.
So, the balance you're talkingabout [is between] also speed
(06:41):
against good foundations...
We spoke so many times about thistopic, that some methods can yield
good early results, so give youthe feeling of having learned a lot
in the first weeks, maybe months.
But they're not giving you thefoundations you need in order to
reach fluency and speak good German.
(07:03):
So, this would be awhole other discussion.
How this works and why?
But this is the kind of trade off.
if a student really needs to somehowbootstrap their German in a few weeks,
well, maybe it's better to go for speed.
The last point you have to elaborate.
What do you mean by that?
Well, I mean that some students werein a rush speaking German, and so they
(07:29):
weren't so interested in creating agood foundation to then learn German to
level C1, C2, academic level, and so on.
And my first reaction was, well,you could rush, prepare for the
exam and just learn what you need inorder to survive these first months,
but you will pay the price later.
Right?
(07:50):
But for them it was okay and [it] would'vebeen frustrating and hard to accept
psychologically or socially to put so muchwork in just building the foundations to
then develop a better level of German.
I actually would like to stilldefine "method" a bit clearer.
So, what I initially understoodunder method when I started this
(08:13):
whole journey was what I wouldcall today often, one trick pony.
So there is one thing there that theybloat up and say, this is the thing,
this is what you have to do, and it willguarantee you success in short time.
So, whenever something like that shows up.
I'd be skeptical least, not sayingit's not possible, but for example, I
learned something called the Birkenbihlmethod, which basically consisted
(08:37):
almost exclusively of translatingforeign text into your native
language, word by word, literally, sothat you can discover the structure.
That is one technique.
That's not a method.
It's a translation technique anda literal one on top of that.
And I believed that in the past.
I even translated the "10 commandments"or whatever into Turkish or the
(08:58):
other way around from Turkish intoGerman or English, until I realized,
okay, this is one technique that'snice in a context of many other
techniques that are well structured.
So, for me, a method is something thatdelivers a structure that carries me
on, that keeps me going and provides mewith just the right amount of challenge,
so that I'm not bored or overwhelmed.
(09:18):
Of course, a method cannot deliverperfect adjustment, no matter how much AI
you put in the title or on the homepage.
This is the wet dream theyare trying to sell to us.
Right?
And I believed it for a while as well,especially initially when AI came out.
It's interesting, because when you askme, I right away I interpret method as
(09:39):
a set of tools, of techniques, right?
And not as a single one.
But you are completely right.
It's the same thing that happenswith diets nowadays, right?
That you should eat just one thing.
You should eat just raw meat or justfruit or, I don't know, you should eat
just that thing or avoid another one.
There are also approaches basedon avoiding something, in language
(10:02):
learning we still pay the price forthe moment where we found out that
just learning grammar wasn't enough,but has been sold as: "you should
never learn any grammar!", right?
"Just, just practice the language."
"Children don't learn grammar!"
which is a bad approach.
Studies show that actually to learn somegrammar to a certain degree actually helps
(10:22):
adults to learn faster, better, and so on.
But it's the it's the same likegluten free diets or sugar free diets.
You have to take something awayand then everything gets healthy
or you have only to eat one singlething and everything will work out.
Well, if you have a gluten allergy,sure, you'd leave the gluten away, right?
So if you have a grammar allergy, leavethe grammar away and see how far you get.
(10:45):
But, luckily grammar allergyisn't too widespread, right?
At least physical grammar allergy.
So, you should survive if you're exposedto a bit of grammar here and there.
Try.
Ask your doctor...
"Zu Risiken und Nebenwirkungen.
Fragen Sie Ihren Arztoder Ihren Apotheker".
The most horrible example of leavingsomething away is this approach where
(11:05):
they teach you German using onlyGerman as an instructional language,
claiming this is the superior wayto teach you because you're always
immersed in the German language.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I know where it comes from.
It has very solid origins from missionarywork, because if you go to a tribe
in the Amazon jungle, then sure.
(11:26):
You cannot use their languagebecause you don't know the language.
So that's where it stems from.
And then someone had thegenius idea to make this into a
product and sell that to people.
And it is impressive that you canunderstand people without using a
single word in a native language.
But let's say after two to fourweeks, depending on the intensity of
(11:47):
your instruction, you will realizethe limitations of this approach.
And you will think it's your faultbecause I'm too stupid to understand
this because you know, there's a teacherwho has studied the art of teaching.
I must be wrong.
And this is where the misery starts.
What happens is that there is a goodcriticism or good intuition, but then
(12:08):
we overdo in a certain direction.
This is something studentsdo also on their own.
But this is something that the system,so our culture and our school system
and so on also tends to do a lot.
For example, what I observed about whatyou just said, learning a language,
only using that language, which ofcourse works if you're Italian like
(12:30):
I am, learning Spanish and French cansomehow work out, but try learning
Chinese or Japanese just using Chineseand Japanese, you will tell me.
So, why it works [formarketing] are two reasons.
So the first is that most of us learnedtheir first foreign language in school.
And in school, we have beentaught by non natives, usually.
(12:50):
For example, Italian teacherswho teach us English and learn
English in school themselves.
So, the pronunciation is bad.
We just learn by grammarexercises and so on.
We don't actually practice the language.
So when we come actually in touchwith the language, we notice this gap.
And so our thought is, oh, whatI actually needed was just to
(13:12):
practice, just to use the language.
So, if I had the opportunity topractice the language for day one,
then nowadays I would be fluent.
But the mistake there is thatwhen you notice that you missed
something, It doesn't mean thatthat was the only thing you needed.
It's like someone noticing "Ihave a B12 deficiency", right?
So, going back to diet.
(13:32):
So, you're missing a vitamin, and thenyou think: "Oh, I should have only
eaten that vitamin my whole life."
Well, no.
You have to add it.
That's right.
You have to add it, right?
It can't be left out but thatwasn't everything you needed.
So, yes, you need native speakers.
So, I'm not a native speaker, forexample, and I'm not a German native
speaker, so, with my students, Idon't practice conversation with them.
(13:55):
I don't do that kind of interactiona native should have with them.
But I help them to find ways to practiceGerman with natives because it's an
important part of their training.
But I would never teachItalian, in Italian to a German,
because this wouldn't work.
But the second reason why it works,I think it's because of schools.
(14:17):
Because it's cost effective.
Yeah.
If you are a German school, like inGermany especially, and you have...
Imagine you have 10 peoplewho want to learn German.
One is Italian, one is Turkish,one is Russian, one is Iranian,
one is American, and so on, right?
If you wanted to teach them usingtheir language, you would need
(14:39):
teachers who speak all these languagesand also are able to teach German.
But if your method is to teach Germanin German, you just need one teacher
who is German and speaks German andcan teach German and you can make one
class, so, squeezing all these peoplefrom different backgrounds, different
(14:59):
linguistic backgrounds in one class andlet this single teacher teach them all.
It's extremely cost effective.
But not for the student, just forthe school, because you can really
squeeze everyone in there, nomatter what, because they all start
from scratch.
If I know English or if I knowChinese, it makes a huge difference.
Yeah.
So, I bring different assets into thegame or resources, which are completely
(15:23):
ignored in this approach, by the way.
Yeah.
So, if I don't use English to teach youGerman, I count on you that you make the
connection between English and German,which not everybody really is able to.
Yeah, simply because of not having enoughpractice or education in this field.
It's a really hurtful approach.
And many people also think they haveno talent to learn German just because
(15:45):
they sit there and they think, "Oh,why do I struggle with this concept?"
"What is this with the articles?"
"Why is it so difficult or the cases?"
These are simple concepts in principle.
Of course they require practice and it'sa lot of information that you really
need to feed bit by bit to people ifyou do it all at once and you have a
couple of tables that doesn't resonate.
(16:05):
Ja.
So, I agree.
It's a an economical thing, whichis why it's successful, right?
Economy rules.
It's all about the money ultimately.
I'm not saying they're ill willed.
The schools do the best they canand the teachers are motivated.
I have really rarely met an evilteacher just some socially awkward ones.
No, teachers aren't the problem.
It's a certain system which developsbecause of economical reasons, right?
(16:28):
In this case...
I believed that in the beginning.
I started with Berlitz, whichmade this their main method.
So I started this.
I was fascinated by it.
I learned it in two weeks.
Two weeks!
Ja!.
And then I was put intoa classroom with people.
But in Berlitz, you just openpage nine and then you do the
method, which is just a set ofexercises, which are so repetitive.
(16:52):
And at one point you just get bored.
Also as a teacher.
Well, because we spoke of thisexperience, actually with the same
school, and I'm not, I don't, Idon't think we are telling any trade
secret here, so I think it's okay.
I had the same experience when I wasliving in a shared flat in Berlin.
I had a lot of flatmates.
We were students, and a lot of my youngGerman flatmates at a certain point,
(17:15):
started working as teacher for Berlitz.
And so they, yeah, they were just Germans.
I mean, they had nobackground in linguistics.
Nobody asked if they spoke otherlanguages, whatever, just native
speakers, young, 20 something yearsold native speakers and they have
been schooled for two weeks "howto use the handbook", right?
And put in classes.
(17:36):
But then, soon, they start coming tome asking me questions like, Alessio,
look, today a student asked me, whythis sentence and this sentence are both
correct, but so different, or why thissentence is correct and this is wrong.
What is this this tense?
What is the, what is a case?
Why do the declensions work like this?
And so I started havingweekly meetings with them.
(17:58):
So, like after dinner, we all met for acouple of hours where I was explaining
to these "teachers", who were "teaching"students every week, how German works.
They were the teachers, they werethe native speakers, but they
had no idea what they were doing.
Of course not.
Yeah, that's not part of your training.
No, there is no, no languagetraining involved there.
(18:21):
If you are a teacher in sucha school, that's the irony.
They make a lot of money with this, right?
So, something works.
It's a good business model.
Yeah.
And that's true.
So we're back to our question.
What is the perfect method?
So, after I want to, to ask youabout your approach, because you
produce also courses that are nottailored for one specific person.
(18:41):
You have this problem, right?
But because it's a problem.
How do I create a product which Iwill give to a wide public and has
to fit different needs and alsohas to be cost effective and so on.
The problem with a lot of coursesand methods and approaches is that
they will make most of the studentsunsatisfied or they will give a
(19:04):
product which is not okay for them.
So this is the problem I see.
And as a student, I stopped withlanguage classes right away after the
first attempts, at university even, Iwasn't going to the language classes
because I wasn't learning anything.
It wasn't interesting.
So, I started learning on my own.
(19:24):
I had to be my own teacher.
But I want to ask you because youhave way more experience with creating
courses for a wide public, right?
You don't, you cannot tailor classesfor a single student, but you
also have experience as a coach,coaching and teaching directly,
classes or single students.
How do you go about this problem?
First of all, you cannot learna language without a method.
(19:46):
You can learn some languagesomehow without a method.
Maybe some people put it together.
Kids learn completelydifferent than adults.
That's completely out of thepicture in case you think: "Oh,
but kids don't have a method."
Possibly they have, but theycouldn't communicate or they also
have certain development stages.
So, there is some kind of structure inthere, which is out of our influence.
That is a completely different topic.
(20:07):
The question is only which method you use.
So I just offer one method, whichis a collection of several exercises
or techniques that I have founduseful and efficient and effective
over the last 25 to 30 years.
'cause I've been learning languagesmyself because tried everything and
certain things I stopped after awhile, because I got bored with it.
(20:28):
I even now am trying Duolingo again.
I get bored very quickly, but Ican always squeeze out five to 10
minutes, refreshing my Turkish,which I studied back in the days.
I'm refreshing, notlearning something new.
So you're saying, you're using everypossible technique, even Duolingo, right?
Because you see, you see some useeven in Duolingo, in small amounts.
(20:48):
If I really wanted to go deep intothe language, Duolingo would stay
five to 10 minutes a day maximum.
I know I might be bored a bit of the time.
And it's a waste of time to travelback and forth, but if I have a
teacher that motivates me and havea group that I enjoy, then I just
enjoy the social aspect of things.
And that kind of connectsme with everything.
So, there is an upside to classes.
(21:09):
The problem is there is veryfew classes and few teachers,
very likely, in my experience,because I did 20 language classes.
I remember one teacherthat I actually enjoyed.
Maybe two in school, back in school, even.
My Turkish teacher was a delight.
What a pleasure.
And she used German toexplain complex matters to us.
And that is where all the lights went on.
(21:30):
It was beautiful.
It really helps you.
And my aim is, of course, thatat one point, the structure is
inherent, and you dare to dip outof the structure, go into the wild,
because talking to natives is fun.
I don't agree that youhave to talk to natives.
You can also learn completely without it.
I spoke to natives, of course, but myEnglish is basically based on watching TV
(21:53):
and working in English on the internet,and playing computer games, right?
But I started with, having agirlfriend for eight months.
That gave me a good head start.
But after that, I've never lived abroad.
I offer a structure and thestructure is flexible enough so
that we can adjust certain exercises.
We can make them more difficult.
We can make them lighter.
(22:15):
There is flexibility in there.
And I always help with that, ofcourse, because it's difficult to
do this on your own if you're notan experienced language learner.
Ja?
Don't underestimate languagelearning just because we learned the
first one by accident, or withoutour consciousness, because it's
an unconscious process, right?
Most of the time.
So, if I understood you correctly,you're saying your approach is to offer
(22:37):
a path, a structure in the sense of adirection, and an array of exercises,
of techniques, but then because they areonline courses, then the students can
choose, if they want to do more or lessof certain exercises based on how they
feel about it or add some other exercises.
(22:58):
Go out of the path and explorein the wild when they feel like.
Just follow the course, no matterwhat course and see how it develops
and whether you really have someprogress after a couple of weeks.
Right.
And if there's a problem, ask a teacher.
If you're in a classroom, you paya teacher to explain things to you.
And you cannot say, "Oh,but I have 30 students."
(23:19):
Yeah, but I paid you.
So many students, I haveQ&As right, like tonight.
So people come there and ask me questionswhile they're in the German class.
I said, where's your teacher?
Why don't you ask your teacher?
"Yeah, he doesn't have the time"or "I don't dare to ask them."
So, what the **** are you paying him for?
With teachers, the problem is thatmany teachers are lovely and motivated,
(23:42):
but they are often inexperienced.
They haven't learned languages themselves.
Yeah, I see a big gap betweenpeople teaching something they
learned and teaching something theylearned as children, but then they
haven't learned again as adults.
This is the reason why Iwouldn't even teach Italian.
I only teach languages I've learnedas an adult, because I really like
to have this kind of connectionand understanding, like, connection
(24:05):
with my students, understandingof what they're going through.
They are doing something Idid myself when I was 25.
I was 25 when I moved toGermany and had to learn German.
I really understand what it meansto be an adult learning German and
for me that is extremely important.
But I also learned other languages, right?
I keep learning new languages inorder to keep being in this situation,
in this learning experiences.
(24:27):
So this is something that you can dobecause you have online courses, right?
Because in a class it's harder.
If you do one hour andyou have 10 students.
The activity, the exercises,you cannot vary them too much.
You have to choose one activity, one setof exercises and everybody they're all
doing the same thing at the same time.
(24:48):
You cannot change speed, for example.
This is something I always noticed.
I was progressing faster than certainstudents or slower than others.
Think for example, in a class, youhave, an Italian, a Chinese, someone
from Holland, they will progress
at different speed..
The thing is, it's called"Binnendifferenzierung".
So, differentiation, but, itrequires a lot of skill, a lot of
(25:09):
ability to really pull this off.
And it requires of course,the right audience.
I can only speak from my experiencein all the language schools I
worked with and also the studentsreport to me what they went through.
It seems to be the exception tohave such a very well differentiated
class, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It needs a lot of looking and maybe thatbrings us back to the question, right?
(25:30):
How do I find the best method for me?
Right?
So, maybe we can start going inthat direction, because I think
a lot of students now will startasking themselves, "okay, but
how do I find the method for me?"
"So, what should I do?"
Okay, let's go backfrom theory to practice.
What should I do?
So, Michael, now I'm thinking about astudent who is starting learning German
(25:54):
right now, and is learning German in aworld where SmarterGerman doesn't exist.
We don't exist.
There aren't courses with a structurethat we like, that we created, right?
What kind of advice could we givethem, so her, him, on how to start
(26:15):
this process, start on this path?
What do you think?
What do you, would you say?
Well, I actually have to think backof my first experiences of learning
a language, right, which was English.
Initially, I did some Spanish, Russianthere just because I was curious, but
we didn't have the internet back then.
Keep that in mind.
I had paper dictionaries, and Ihad some books, which I could find
(26:38):
traveling half an hour somewhere.
And I had only one private channelon TV, which luckily showed
Star Trek Next Generation, inoriginal language, God knows why.
That was 30 years ago, right?
So, don't overthink things.
Get started.
Start somewhere.
Also, see what drives you.
(26:59):
Like, where is the fun?
Where is the discovery, the motivation?
Follow the motivation initially.
And at one point you will feel thedesire, oh, I need a bit more structure.
Maybe then you try a couple of courses.
If SmarterGerman is not around,then you have to try other courses.
You need to learn to listen a littleBecause like Alessio said, sometimes
you might follow some approachand it will not lead you very far.
(27:22):
And then you might be stuck.
Ja.
So like, let's talk Duolingo, aslovely as it is produced, it will
not get you very far, but it hasits place in a bigger context.
So don't get stuck on one technique.
You need to learn to speak, to write,to listen, to read, and maybe some
grammar might be good . So justtry to find a bit of everything,
(27:45):
ideally in as few places as possible.
Because, if you have five differentplaces where you have to do these things,
you're busy with organization a lot.
I don't want to organize things.
I just want to enjoy them.
I want to click and be there.
So that's the one thing.
So try to find a place whereall of these things are covered.
In the past, that was a coursebook by Langenscheidt or whatever.
(28:06):
In my case, they hadtexts, some exercises.
It was a good start.
And then at one point I startedadding real life stuff to it.
So, you can then watch real thingslike series, movies, you can listen to
podcasts that use the language naturally.
I do not recommend listening to podcastsor YouTube videos that teach you German.
(28:28):
That's a completely different topicthat we can cover in another time.
It's okay not to have theperfect approach right away.
It's a learning process.
You will, over time, optimizeyour learning process.
Very likely.
Very likely.
Yeah, it depends on, because if youkeep an eye out and you read experiences
and you look here, look there, maybe onReddit, then you will get an impression
(28:50):
of certain things coming again and again.
"Maybe I should try these..."
And be open, have an open mind.
Yeah.
I was thinking a student could ask, yeah,but how do I avoid being stuck with a
method which is not working and maybeI don't realize, or how do I avoid to
be overwhelmed by all these options.
(29:10):
Because maybe I find 10 different courses,maybe I find 10 different podcasts.
So which TV show?
If I start with the wrong one,maybe I'll have a bad experience.
So how can I handle this complexity?
That's exactly an example of overthinking.
Just do one and see how you feel.
Pay attention.
to how you feel when you do things.
(29:30):
And if there's resistance, itmight, you know, it's, it's a
little bit of analysis work.
Ideally, not everybody isnecessarily capable of doing that.
Maybe seek some counsel.
Yeah.
Alessio does counseling, I do counseling.
Just find someone that can alsotalk to you about it, that has some
experience with teaching and learning.
And there's lots of people sellingsnake oil, just be skeptical and
(29:54):
explore, but don't overthink.
Try and feel.
And again, fun and motivation.
These should be your guidelines.
If you're stuck, youwill feel you are stuck.
You cannot not feel that you are stuck.
You will have do trial and errorif there is no one around that has
25 or more years of experience.
Look for people with experience thatreally want to help you and listen well.
(30:16):
I think what you're saying resonatesa lot with my experience too and with
what I would recommend students to do.
Starting with experience exactly.
One of the first things I do nowadays- when I start learning a new language
- personally, so because I don't have acoach myself, is I start reading....
am available.
(30:36):
So you can teach me Chinese.
Nope.
No, I can teach you how to learn Chinese.
I can't, absolutely not.
The first thing I do is, to look forpeople who already did it, experts,
and start reading about it, about theirexperiences, trying to learn from them.
And not someone exactly saying,"Oh, I found this magic method."
(31:00):
As you said, right, there is a lotof advertisement stunts out there.
But, I look for blogs, can also be vlogs,you know, it can be YouTube, whatever.
It can be video, it can be a podcastof people who went through it
with success over a decade maybe.
Who became fluent and where Inoticed that are also people capable
(31:23):
of reflection, self reflection.
People who are commenting alsotheir mistakes, what they tried
out and it didn't work and why.
So in this way, reading and listeningabout their experiences, I learn from
their mistakes, from their attempts, andwhat their failure and their success is.
(31:43):
I learn a lot and I have betterchances of avoiding certain mistakes
myself, maybe, and trying from thevery start techniques or approaches
that maybe prove to be successful.
But, as you said, thisisn't 100 percent safe.
I mean, it doesn't assure100 percent success.
(32:04):
The second thing you said, thatyou have to try and, and see,
you said how it feels, right?
So, what results it yields, or howdo you feel when you do it and so on.
This is extremely important.
This is actually somethingI also do as a coach.
After the first meeting where I testthe skills of the student and I ask
(32:25):
questions, I got a picture of thesituation and of the person, often
students are expecting me to say,"Okay, this is what you should do."
So this is exactly what you'regoing to do for the next months.
This thing first, this thing second.
This many minutes per day andso on, but my approach is more
like, well, I would try this...
(32:45):
But then, please check howyou feel when you do it.
Just let me know how it'sgoing every week when we meet.
I want you to reflect andtell me how it felt and if you
notice it is helping you or not.
And it's very important that the studentslearn to reflect their own experience
but also to take control of it.
(33:06):
Because this is something I thinkmost people are missing because
we are so used to learn languages,and many other things, in school.
Where we are children orwe are treated as such.
We are treated as children who cannotbe their own coaches, cannot be their
own trainers, cannot reflect their ownexperience and make their own choices.
(33:30):
And people are also scaredof making wrong choices.
They don't feel competent enough.
And this is a feedback loop.
This makes them helpless, like unableto reflect and decide on their own.
Also this, the second thing yousaid, I think, It's very important.
Think about your experience.
What also comes to mind when you say thatis that I would always look for company.
(33:54):
In the sense of maybe a learninggroup, not that you have to do the same
level or the same stuff, just that youreally say, "Oh, I'm going to do my
20 minutes today, my hour tomorrow."
And we do it at the same time.
Or once a week we meet, we exchangewhat we've done, how we feel about
it - feeling is really crucial becauseyou might fool yourself if you don't
pay attention to your feelings, right?
(34:15):
You can say, "Oh yeah, but I didfive minutes of Duolingo today."
That's not learning.
So you're fooling yourself.
If you're just spending time on something.
is an absolute worthless value becausethe quality of the activity that you have
done in the time that actually matters.
And then of course, if you have highquality, then the amount matters.
(34:35):
So you need both factors.
Seek company because italso helps with motivation.
I have many onlinestudents, of course, right?
Because I sell an online course, butI have Q&As where you can meet me.
It's an in person thing.
Twice, three times a year,I meet people here in Berlin
in person, whoever is there.
And you can reach me in my community.
All these places where you have humancontact, even though it's maybe written
(34:56):
or video, this makes a difference.
Many people feel like, Oh, Iknow you for a long time because
they've seen me in videos, right?
A human factor in learning isabsolute key in language learning.
If I replaced myself or my videosand my courses with AI clones of
myself , even though they're excellentnowadays, you would feel this.
You would feel this in the long run.
(35:17):
AI still has to grow, but I'mnot even threatened by it.
Cause you will always feelthere's something missing.
Do you mean it's important to talk aboutyour experience, your learning experience
with other students or teachers alsoin order to help you reflect it, right?
Also, yeah.
Anything.
To become aware of it.
Like with any problem, it's niceto talk it through with someone who
(35:39):
has maybe a different perspectiveor confirms your idea, which
is also very soothing at times.
This is something that I don't like bysome, teachers, influencers, polyglots,
I don't know how to call them, on socialmedia, that instead of creating content
which inspires self- reflection, andquestioning and finding your own opinions,
(36:04):
they try to give you the opinion.
Also because they have to theyneed some click baiting title like:
"This is what you're doing wrong".
"This is how you make it right."
"Polyglot explains how you scientificallylearn languages", this kind of claims,
and then they are really teaching youfrom top down what you should do, and they
(36:26):
don't encourage, discussion, reflection,sharing, and this kind of process,
and this is, I think, is something weshould surely do in this podcast, right?
So our conversations isn't a way totell students what they should do, but
is a way to encourage this same kindof discussion and reflection we have.
(36:47):
So how many times we haddifferent opinions on how to do
things, creating courses, right?
I still remember the first timewe created a course together.
How many disagreements we hadand how we went about it and
learned from our discussions.
I think this should be animportant goal for this podcast.
Yeah.
Just to say, while I agree that there'scertainly people on YouTube, also
(37:10):
polyglots that might work this way.
There's also many who genuinely reallyexplore the language learning process.
There's some reallyinteresting ones out there.
And my favorite is SteveKaufman, who has been around
longer than me, even, possibly.
I find myself agreeing to him, eventhough I haven't watched much in
the past, but I know him of course.
He's someone with a long experience,so he already got that kind of wisdom
(37:35):
where he knows not to know, and heknows that there are a lot of stuff out
there, a lot of different approaches.
So he's he's a wise man.
Of course.
Don't fall for the"Marktschreier", we call them.
On the market, there's announcers.
They say "fresh fish, oneeuro fresh fish, one euro".
We have that around thecorner here, by the way.
And so be careful.
And honestly, anyone announcing anythinglike this, I wouldn't buy that fish.
(37:57):
No matter how fresh he says it is.
This is one thing to keep in mind.
So, it's not a particular group of people.
I said polyglots, but there's lotsof "teachers" on YouTube, which
honestly my heart breaks watchingthat because it's just entertaining.
And entertainment is fine.
But entertainment and teachingtogether is always a compromise.
(38:18):
So back to our students startinglearning German, I would recommend to
look for courses or teachers that giveyou the possibility to try stuff out,
first thing, and where the platformis very transparent about feedback.
This is very important.
I love to to read actualfeedback of actual students.
(38:42):
Also at the end of the course.
This is something, for example,I loved from your community,
SmarterGerman community, from day one.
That in the forums, you can readstudents writing long reports
about their experience when theyreach B2, when they reach C1.
So how they went through itbecause they're also celebrating
the milestones with the community.
And these aren't reviewslike a short review.
(39:04):
"Oh, five stars!", you know, on a platformwhere maybe, if it's your platform,
you can even, you know, erase them.
They are actually conversationsamong people sharing that
material, those courses.
So these two things, first, that you cantry things for free without any barriers.
(39:24):
And second, where the feedback system,the experience of more advanced students
is available to you in an unfilteredform, where you see also people who
say, "Oh yeah, I didn't like this."
So this is very importantto choose what you try.
Ja, ja, there's often people writing mean email saying, "Oh, I don't want to make
this public because it is a bit negative."
(39:44):
I said, this is exactlywhy you make it public.
Cause I can respond.
I respond to everything and I analyze andI talk about it and I ask questions about
it because often it is not that refined.
Negative feedback is actually incrediblyvaluable, for me as well as for you.
Cause it's you expressing yourselfand there is a preference in there.
I agree.
(40:05):
You should have the ability totest it also with language schools.
If you prefer class.
Why not have a triallesson or a reduced lesson?
Don't book six months right away, becauseyou don't know what you're getting into.
And you're stuck with athousand euro contract, right?
Test the waters, seewhether the vibes are good.
How do you feel?
Is the teacher respectful?
Are the people in class your peeps?
And don't be afraid to make mistakes.
(40:26):
If you realize you madea mistake, cut it, go.
Do something else.
Don't cry over lost money.
If you realize you have a six monthcontract and after the first month, you
feel this is horrible, get out of it.
The five months can destroy allyour love for the German language.
The money you can always remake, but yourmotivation is incredibly hard to regain.
I was thinking, how, how can we close?
(40:46):
What is the last thingswe want to discuss?
We started with the question: "Is there a perfect method?" (40:49):
undefined
We decided actually, no, thereare approaches, methodologies,
structures, exercises.
I think, we agree on these.
And we came to this point at the endwhere we gave this advice on how to
choose materials, courses and so on.
(41:11):
I think the last question we couldvery rapidly answer is "What are the
elements that should always be present?",so that the student has a checklist?
What is the minimal requirement forlearning German, in your opinion?
Very fast, you have one minute.
Reading, listening, writing, grammar,and a little bit of curiosity.
(41:36):
Pronunciation is includedin speaking, right?
So, these things need to be present,even though you might think, I
don't want to learn to speak.
Some people just want to read and listen.
Why not?
Why not give it a try?
It adds to the experience.
It gives a sensual experience,even over reading and listening.
Listening is also sensual,but speaking is...
everything moves here and I feel my chest.
(41:57):
I hear my voice just add to itwithout the pressure of having
to reach a certain level.
For German, if you have to putin order from the most important
to the relatively less important,these things you said, right?
For the first three monthsof learning, because long
term, everything is important.
First three months of learning,what are the most important
(42:20):
activities for a student?
All of them.
You cannot...
make...
You cannot...
No, no it makes no sense.
Why?
So of course you need tolearn vocabulary, right?
Even if you're listening,you need to know vocabulary.
You need to do writing, reading,all is part of vocabulary.
The question is, how doyou acquire vocabulary?
It's easiest by reading.
So reading.
actually precedes all others, ifyou ask me, and is a good source of
(42:42):
vocabulary and helps you in a way withlistening a little bit, because when I
listen, I can imagine how it's written.
So, reading I can do in front of myinner eye, even when I'm listening.
So there is a little of an overlap.
And reading is part of writing as well.
When I write, I read.
I would do them all balancedenough in the beginning.
(43:02):
That would be nice.
But if I had to choose, because somepeople maybe have to choose, right?
They don't have the time or theresources or they're very concerned
about one of the components.
Maybe it's not the most urgent one.
With German specifically, at least forEuropeans or for European languages,
people coming from European languages.
I would say the most important thingfor me at the beginning is reading
(43:24):
and listening Probably with Germanin this order because German has
a very specific structure which isdifferent from many other languages.
So for Italian speakers, French speakers,Spanish speakers, English speakers,
it's very important to read German tohave the time to learn where things go.
So reading is the most important.
Listening.
(43:45):
Then I would put speaking before writing,because I think that listening and
speaking has to be connected withoutdoing too much what you described.
So reading in their head, becauseotherwise pronunciation can
be tricky, what happens there.
And grammar, I would just sparkle a littlebit on top of it, like step by step,
maybe 15 minutes a day, not too much.
(44:07):
So this is how I would answer it.
The question is how youintroduce it, right?
Like you can write simplethings in the first lesson.
And if you, my writing in the firstlesson is typing things off the screen.
And remembering itquickly, short term memory.
You don't create sentences.
Same with speaking.
You don't have a conversation right away.
That's an overwhelm.
I totally agree.
These things have to be done very gently.
(44:29):
The speaking and the writing.
Absolutely agree.
Yeah.
Even listening.
Yeah.
I was thinking about someone not havinga course like SmarterGerman, right?
Someone who has to do it on their own.
So this is how I would prioritize thingsalso because I think that to become able
to read and to understand by listening isa priority then to bootstrap the language.
(44:54):
And a lot people focus toomuch on speaking and writing.
Actually, most courses, and in schooltoo, push too much speaking and writing.
And so people get used to it.
They want to be able to speak andwrite at the same level as they
understand, which is crazy, in myopinion, there must be a gap there.
So, you must be able to understand waymore of what you're able to express.
(45:16):
That's why I would prioritizereading and listening.
Many people think, whenwill I be able to speak?
I say, why don't you take six monthsof really getting the language in
first, before you try to producesomething complex yourself.
So, there's even a whole approachdedicated to this, which is called the
silent approach, which I don't agreewith because it's overdoing things.
But, yeah, that's the most difficultthing, the speaking, because it's daring,
(45:39):
it's fearful, because you speak, you,you present yourself weak, yeah, because
you know, you don't say it perfectly.
There's so many componentsthat come in there.
So I totally agree with yourapproach in this regard.
Yeah, I think we have to wrap it up,I mean, I'd keep talking with you.
Maybe we'll keep talking later.
But for the podcast, wehave to close it here.
(46:00):
I hope our listeners enjoyed listeningto us and maybe learned something or
have new questions and new thoughts.
I'm pretty sure.
From my side, I enjoyed our conversation.
We had similar conversations before,but it's always, you know, new
nuances, new elements in there,and it's, it's just a pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(46:21):
And what is the next topic for next week?
We don't know.
So we will surprise ourselfduring the week, finding a
topic and, see you next week.
See you next week, Alessio.
Have a lovely day.
Bye.
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