December 18, 2025 • 29 mins
Welcome to the second series of "Going Macro on Micro." In our first episode, host Dr. Julie Ann Lough and Dr. Andrew Lee, senior research fellow in microbiology at Queen's University Belfast, discuss the role of environmental epidemiology within the One Health framework. They consider how environmental sampling—particularly wastewater surveillance—can provide early warning signs for emerging zoonotic diseases and the dynamics of antimicrobial resistance. Dr. Lee shares insights from running Northern Ireland's COVID-19 wastewater surveillance program and discusses how climate change is driving the spread of zoonotic diseases into new regions. Learn how the health of humans, animals, and the environment are interconnected.
Going Macro on Micro is a podcast series supported by Beckman Coulter that explores emerging themes in microbiology. Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to stay up to date with each new episode as it's released.
Beckman Coulter, 2025-15004
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker:
Hello and welcome to Going Macro (00:07):
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Speaker: on Micro, the podcast where we (00:09):
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Speaker: explore emerging themes in (00:11):
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Speaker: microbiology. (00:12):
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Speaker: Brought to you by Beckman-coulter. (00:14):
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Speaker: I am your host, Doctor Julie Ann (00:15):
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Speaker: Lough, a science communicator, (00:17):
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Speaker: passionate about sharing stories (00:19):
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Speaker: exploring the future of health (00:20):
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Speaker: and science. (00:22):
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Speaker: In this, our second series, we (00:23):
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Speaker: continue to explore the concept (00:25):
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Speaker: of One health, an integrated (00:27):
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Speaker: approach that recognizes that (00:29):
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Speaker: the health of people, animals, (00:31):
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Speaker: and ecosystems are all (00:33):
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Speaker: interconnected. (00:35):
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Speaker: As we confront the challenges like pandemics and antibiotic (00:37):
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Speaker: resistance, it's evident that no one exists in a vacuum. (00:40):
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Speaker: We are all in this together. (00:45):
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Speaker: In this episode, we will explore the role of environmental (00:47):
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Speaker: surveillance in One Health. (00:51):
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Speaker: Joining me for this episode is (00:53):
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Speaker: Doctor Andrew Lee, a senior (00:55):
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Speaker: research fellow in microbiology (00:57):
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Speaker: at Queen's University Belfast in (00:58):
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Speaker: the UK. (01:00):
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Speaker: His research focuses on environmental sampling as a tool (01:02):
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Speaker: in epidemiology and its use in monitoring the emergence of (01:05):
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Speaker: antimicrobial resistance, or AMR and other pathogens. (01:09):
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Speaker: Doctor Lee, welcome to going Macro on Micro. (01:14):
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Speaker: Hello and thanks for having me. (01:17):
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Speaker: No, absolutely welcome. (01:18):
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Speaker: First off, for those listeners (01:20):
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Speaker: who may not have tuned in to our (01:22):
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Speaker: first series, and I highly (01:24):
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Speaker: encourage you to do so, there (01:26):
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Speaker: are some fantastic content (01:27):
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Speaker: there. But if you haven't (01:28):
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Speaker: listened yet, Doctor Lee, can (01:30):
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Speaker: you briefly tell us what the One (01:32):
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Speaker: Health Concept entails and why (01:35):
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Speaker: it's critical to today's health (01:37):
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Speaker: landscape? (01:38):
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Speaker: I think you've you've already done it justice there in your (01:39):
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Speaker: introduction, uh, briefly, it can be summarized quite simply (01:42):
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Speaker: as everything is connected. (01:46):
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Speaker: But if we want to elaborate on (01:48):
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Speaker: that a little bit, it's, it's, (01:50):
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Speaker: it's realizing that not just us, (01:51):
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Speaker: but all the other animals, all (01:54):
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Speaker: the plants and the myriad of (01:56):
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Speaker: other biotic and abiotic (01:57):
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Speaker: elements in our various shared (01:59):
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Speaker: ecosystems or global environment (02:01):
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Speaker: are fundamentally (02:03):
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Speaker: interconnected. (02:04):
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Speaker: And a lot of this has come about (02:05):
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Speaker: because, I mean, there has been (02:07):
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Speaker: unprecedented human impact on (02:09):
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Speaker: the environment in recent (02:11):
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Speaker: centuries. (02:12):
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Speaker: We have been lucky to have (02:13):
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Speaker: formidable transformations that (02:15):
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Speaker: really have changed our lives, (02:17):
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Speaker: such as industrialization, (02:19):
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Speaker: urbanization, you know, (02:21):
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Speaker: globalization. (02:22):
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Speaker: But with that, other things have suffered. (02:23):
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Speaker: And that is despite those those (02:26):
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Speaker: big strides we have made that (02:29):
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Speaker: have advanced health quite (02:30):
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Speaker: markedly. (02:32):
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Speaker: This has also caused, um, other aspects that are obviously (02:33):
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Speaker: interlinked with that to suffer. (02:39):
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Speaker: We're acutely aware that climate (02:41):
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Speaker: change is accelerating. (02:43):
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Speaker: Biodiversity is declining, and (02:46):
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Speaker: we have global conflicts, war, (02:48):
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Speaker: um, we have crisis of food (02:50):
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Speaker: insecurity and fresh water (02:52):
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Speaker: scarcity. (02:54):
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Speaker: Um, and then along with all those problems, it is the impact (02:55):
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Speaker: then of infectious disease, both new and re-emerging (03:00):
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Speaker: non-communicable diseases and of course antimicrobial resistance. (03:03):
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Speaker: So, while we evolve, while we (03:09):
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Speaker: move forward, well, some people (03:11):
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Speaker: may not agree with how, you (03:13):
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Speaker: know, human society has has (03:15):
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Speaker: moved in the strides that we (03:17):
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Speaker: have made. (03:18):
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Speaker: You know, uh, at the technological level, scientific (03:19):
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Speaker: level, what have you. (03:22):
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Speaker: But, you know, we are having an impact on the environment. (03:24):
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Speaker: And and it's critical that the listeners understand that. (03:26):
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Speaker: Yeah. (03:31):
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Speaker: I think that's a really good (03:32):
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Speaker: point, isn't it, that like, (03:32):
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Speaker: while some people might disagree (03:34):
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Speaker: on the science of it or might (03:36):
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Speaker: not like to acknowledge climate (03:38):
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Speaker: change, the reality is, is (03:39):
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Speaker: there, you know, the environment (03:41):
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Speaker: is having an impact on human (03:42):
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Speaker: health. (03:44):
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Speaker: And likewise, human activity is (03:44):
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Speaker: having an impact on animal (03:46):
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Speaker: health and things like (03:48):
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Speaker: antimicrobial resistance. (03:49):
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Speaker: So you mentioned there a little (03:51):
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Speaker: bit about the environment and (03:52):
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Speaker: your expertise lies in (03:54):
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Speaker: environmental microbiology, and (03:55):
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Speaker: I really want to explore the (03:57):
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Speaker: role of the environment in One (03:59):
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Speaker: health. (04:01):
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Speaker: So how do environmental factors (04:01):
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Speaker: influence the spread of zoonotic (04:03):
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Speaker: diseases? (04:05):
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Speaker: Quite simply, we've seen the (04:06):
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Speaker: emergence or re-emergence of of (04:08):
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Speaker: zoonotic pathogens that we know (04:11):
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Speaker: about and those that are new in (04:12):
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Speaker: the horizon. (04:15):
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Speaker: And that's all been accelerated (04:16):
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Speaker: by our increased global (04:17):
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Speaker: motility, mobility, even, um, (04:19):
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Speaker: and the aforementioned climate (04:22):
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Speaker: change. (04:24):
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Speaker: Our population is always getting bigger global population. (04:25):
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Speaker: And, you know, agricultural practices have obviously changed (04:28):
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Speaker: to keep pace with a growing population, a growing demand. (04:33):
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Speaker: If we try to squeeze so much (04:37):
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Speaker: more into a defined space that (04:39):
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Speaker: we're going to have an impact on (04:41):
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Speaker: the environment and we're going (04:43):
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Speaker: to influence the environment, (04:44):
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Speaker: and then in turn, that (04:46):
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Speaker: environment is going to bite (04:47):
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Speaker: back. (04:49):
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Speaker: And so, you know, you know, that climate change that people Will (04:49):
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Speaker: agree disagree with. (04:53):
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Speaker: Quite frankly, I'll be honest. (04:55):
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Speaker: I don't care whether you disagree with it. (04:57):
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Speaker: It's still happening. (04:59):
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Speaker: I mean, you can talk to people on the ground. (05:01):
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Speaker: You can talk to fishermen that (05:03):
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Speaker: are actually interfacing with (05:04):
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Speaker: the environment daily because (05:06):
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Speaker: it's their lifeblood, their (05:07):
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Speaker: living. (05:08):
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Speaker: And you'll probably find that they'll just bluntly tell you (05:09):
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Speaker: how it is. (05:13):
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Speaker: Um, and so all those changes, those impacts that we're having (05:14):
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Speaker: on the environment will ultimately influence how (05:18):
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Speaker: zoonotic disease is spread. (05:22):
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Speaker: And so, you know, you have large scale agriculture of chickens (05:24):
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Speaker: and all that. (05:27):
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Speaker: And so with that comes the risk (05:27):
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Speaker: of potentially, you know, high (05:29):
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Speaker: path avian influenzas, uh, (05:30):
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Speaker: getting into the food chain or (05:33):
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Speaker: infecting ourselves. (05:35):
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Speaker: And then you have the spread of, (05:37):
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Speaker: of, um, insects that carry with (05:39):
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Speaker: them various diseases that are (05:41):
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Speaker: transmitted, uh, to, to us (05:43):
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Speaker: humans. (05:45):
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Speaker: And of course, here I'm talking about like, tick borne diseases, (05:45):
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Speaker: mosquitoes, things like that. (05:49):
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Speaker: There you know. (05:51):
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Speaker: We just have to be acutely aware of that and not (05:51):
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Speaker: live in our own little bubble. (05:54):
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Speaker: Yeah. (05:55):
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Speaker: And as you were saying, the environment will will start to (05:56):
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Speaker: bite back a bit as we encroach on it more and more. (05:58):
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Speaker: And I think some people have (06:01):
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Speaker: become more aware of zoonotic (06:02):
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Speaker: diseases. (06:03):
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Speaker: You know, obviously COVID was a classic example. (06:04):
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Speaker: We're seeing bird flu has gone (06:06):
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Speaker: into other species and back (06:10):
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Speaker: again. (06:12):
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Speaker: And there might be mutations there. (06:12):
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Speaker: And that we need to keep an eye on that from that point of view (06:14):
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Speaker: because of that close proximity between different species. (06:16):
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Speaker: Given I suppose that one health (06:20):
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Speaker: then is inherently (06:22):
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Speaker: multidisciplinary, you know, (06:23):
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Speaker: it's not just microbiologists, (06:24):
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Speaker: it's not just human people, it's (06:26):
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Speaker: animal people, (06:27):
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Speaker: It's environmental people. (06:27):
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Speaker: What are your experiences, then, (06:29):
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Speaker: in collaboration between the (06:31):
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Speaker: different sectors, such as maybe (06:32):
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Speaker: health and environmental (06:34):
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Speaker: science? (06:35):
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Speaker: Obviously during, um, the the (06:36):
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Speaker: period of the COVID pandemic and (06:39):
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Speaker: what we did here in Northern (06:41):
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Speaker: Ireland, running the wastewater (06:43):
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Speaker: surveillance programme, we (06:44):
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Speaker: obviously had to work with a lot (06:46):
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Speaker: of partners, um, across (06:48):
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Speaker: disciplines that that previously (06:50):
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Speaker: we may not have crossed paths (06:52):
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Speaker: on. (06:53):
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Speaker: We grew those collaborations we had with the clinicians, with (06:54):
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Speaker: the people in the health sphere that we had worked quite closely (06:57):
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Speaker: with before then. (07:00):
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Speaker: And those worked perfectly, seamlessly, um, data sharing, (07:01):
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Speaker: all that, um, helping each other out with little problems and (07:06):
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Speaker: bits and pieces. (07:09):
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Speaker: And that's continued on still now the present day. (07:10):
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Speaker: Um, and, and that's been fantastic. (07:13):
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Speaker: But then we had to interface, uh, and likewise they had (07:15):
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Speaker: interface back with the physical sectors, the infrastructure (07:18):
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Speaker: sectors. Dealing with the water provider and all of that there. (07:22):
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Speaker: And so there was a learning curve for everyone through it (07:25):
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Speaker: all that that was quite steep. (07:29):
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Speaker: The fact that one health has this core at it is interconnected. (07:32):
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Speaker: Then whenever you're you're doing this sort of environmental (07:36):
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Speaker: monitoring that cannot be on its own, you're interconnected. (07:39):
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Speaker: You're automatically then (07:42):
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Speaker: plugging straight in to all the (07:43):
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Speaker: other, um, sectors within the, (07:45):
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Speaker: you know, the within government, (07:49):
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Speaker: within society. (07:51):
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Speaker: And you know, science is a is a collaborative effort. (07:52):
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Speaker: So it is let's be honest. It (07:55):
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Speaker: always has been and it always (07:57):
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Speaker: will be. (07:59):
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Speaker: And and so it has been (07:59):
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Speaker: interesting seeing those (08:01):
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Speaker: relationships grow and, and how (08:03):
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Speaker: we've it's been good to be able (08:05):
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Speaker: to keep those established as (08:07):
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Speaker: well. (08:08):
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Speaker: Indeed long may it continue. (08:09):
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Speaker: And I wonder as well, I suppose if you're dealing with (08:10):
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Speaker: government agencies, maybe wastewater, water companies, (08:13):
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Speaker: people who would never traditionally have been involved (08:16):
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Speaker: in health research as well. (08:18):
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Speaker: So that's probably been quite a (08:19):
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Speaker: steep learning learning curve (08:20):
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Speaker: for them. (08:22):
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Speaker: You mentioned there about (08:23):
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Speaker: environmental sampling and you (08:24):
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Speaker: talked a lot about wastewater (08:26):
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Speaker: sampling. (08:27):
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Speaker: Can you talk us just maybe for the listener who isn't familiar (08:28):
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Speaker: with wastewater sampling, what it involves, what sort of things (08:31):
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Speaker: you're looking for, and other types of environmental sampling (08:34):
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Speaker: that you might do. (08:38):
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Speaker: Our research group grew out of (08:39):
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Speaker: the meeting that immediate need (08:41):
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Speaker: to do wastewater surveillance (08:43):
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Speaker: before clinical testing was able (08:44):
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Speaker: to ramp up and keep pace with (08:46):
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Speaker: that. (08:48):
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Speaker: And that was the same even across all the First Nations. (08:48):
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Speaker: You know, if you if you want to put it that way, the most (08:52):
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Speaker: developed nations wastewater testing was immediately adopted (08:54):
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Speaker: to fill any and plug any gaps that we had in our information, (08:58):
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Speaker: in our knowledge sphere around the progression of SARS-2. (09:03):
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Speaker: And although we started out as a (09:06):
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Speaker: wastewater surveillance group, (09:08):
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Speaker: we very quickly have evolved (09:09):
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Speaker: into what we call an (09:11):
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Speaker: environmental epidemiology (09:13):
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Speaker: group. (09:15):
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Speaker: So we don't just now look at wastewater, we look at any type (09:15):
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Speaker: of environmental sample that you can care to think of. (09:19):
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Speaker: So we we do air sampling, (09:21):
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Speaker: freshwater marine water sampling (09:23):
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Speaker: and of course wastewater (09:26):
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Speaker: sampling, which is is how we (09:28):
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Speaker: started out in is our bread and (09:29):
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Speaker: butter. (09:31):
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Speaker: What the listener probably maybe doesn't know is that when you (09:32):
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Speaker: get those samples, there's quite a bit of front end work or (09:36):
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Speaker: processing that you need to do to initially get that sample (09:40):
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Speaker: into a format where you can start to analyze it, (09:45):
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Speaker: extract that meaningful data from it. (09:48):
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Speaker: And if we use wastewater as an example, we would get our raw (09:50):
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Speaker: wastewater at the inlet to the wastewater treatment plant. (09:54):
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Speaker: And before it's undergone any (09:57):
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Speaker: treatment or anything like that (09:59):
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Speaker: there. (10:00):
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Speaker: This is this is a representative sample of what the community is, (10:00):
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Speaker: Yeah, (10:04):
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Speaker: well peeing and pooping out so (10:05):
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Speaker: and so, you know. People (10:07):
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Speaker: probably have this image in (10:08):
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Speaker: their head of what that might (10:10):
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Speaker: look like. (10:11):
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Speaker: But to be honest with you, it's not as disgusting as you might (10:11):
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Speaker: first envisage it. (10:14):
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Speaker: It just looks like a very muddy rainwater sample. (10:16):
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Speaker: When we get that sample, then (10:19):
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Speaker: there's a few steps we have to (10:21):
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Speaker: go through (10:22):
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Speaker: first of all, with it and that. (10:22):
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Speaker: So the first thing that we do is we would clarify that sample, (10:24):
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Speaker: which is the scientific term, because we all like to have (10:27):
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Speaker: different terms for everything, of simply removing any solid (10:30):
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Speaker: material that may be in that. (10:33):
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Speaker: And that's, you know, uh, sand, grit, dirt, anything you want to (10:35):
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Speaker: care to mention, (10:39):
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Speaker: Toilet paper, (10:40):
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Speaker: there'll be some of that in there, no doubt. (10:41):
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Speaker: And, uh, then we need to concentrate that out going. (10:42):
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Speaker: And there's a variety of methods (10:45):
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Speaker: in different groups doing this (10:47):
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Speaker: have their own different (10:49):
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Speaker: approach as to how to to (10:49):
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Speaker: concentrate that down, to get at (10:51):
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Speaker: the, uh, get enough of that (10:53):
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Speaker: nucleic acid, that DNA, that RNA (10:55):
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Speaker: that we're interested in, that (10:57):
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Speaker: that gold, if you will, that's (10:58):
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Speaker: in in the wastewater sample that (11:00):
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Speaker: we then purify and that we can (11:02):
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Speaker: then analyze by a variety of, of (11:05):
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Speaker: molecular means, both PCR based (11:07):
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Speaker: non PCR based and and (11:10):
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Speaker: sequencing obviously. (11:12):
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Speaker: We we like to sequence all our samples, (11:13):
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Speaker: and see what's present in there. (11:16):
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Speaker: So it's quite a substantial (11:18):
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Speaker: amount of work and it's the RNA (11:19):
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Speaker: and DNA that you're looking at (11:21):
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Speaker: primarily. (11:22):
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Speaker: So you're looking at those (11:22):
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Speaker: microbiological samples and, and (11:23):
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Speaker: sequencing. (11:26):
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Speaker: Are you looking for other small molecules like macromolecules? (11:27):
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Speaker: Are you looking for anything else or are you purely just (11:31):
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Speaker: looking at RNA and DNA? (11:33):
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Speaker: So yeah, I mean we look for (11:35):
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Speaker: those those biological (11:36):
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Speaker: indicators. (11:38):
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Speaker: And for the longest time we of course focused on that genetic (11:39):
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Speaker: material that the DNA, the RNA. (11:42):
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Speaker: Because of course, you know, there are viruses that are both (11:45):
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Speaker: DNA based and RNA based. (11:47):
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Speaker: And of course, bacteria are DNA based. (11:49):
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Speaker: We're interested in those and all the way up. (11:51):
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Speaker: And you can even pick up parasites within, you know, the (11:53):
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Speaker: wastewater if you're lucky. (11:57):
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Speaker: Um, but but that data it is all, (11:59):
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Speaker: when we finally have it, it (12:02):
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Speaker: is worth understanding that it's (12:04):
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Speaker: pretty, (12:06):
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Speaker: It's a it's it's a pretty long process. (12:07):
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Speaker: But when I say long, you know, (12:10):
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Speaker: we are we're talking relatively (12:11):
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Speaker: speaking here. (12:13):
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Speaker: Now you know this can all be done, (12:14):
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Speaker: getting a sample from its raw form into nucleic acid can all (12:16):
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Speaker: be done in half a day. (12:19):
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Speaker: So it can, within the lab. (12:21):
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Speaker: Um, but there is a growing, uh, desire to look for other things (12:23):
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Speaker: within wastewater as well. (12:28):
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Speaker: And, and there's plenty of other (12:29):
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Speaker: groups that actually have a (12:30):
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Speaker: focus looking at drug residues, (12:31):
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Speaker: both legal and illegal drug (12:34):
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Speaker: residues, so they can get an (12:35):
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Speaker: idea of, you know, what is (12:37):
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Speaker: circulating at that moment in (12:39):
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Speaker: time. (12:40):
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Speaker: And so wastewater is an (12:41):
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Speaker: extremely rich data source, and (12:43):
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Speaker: sometimes the amount of data (12:45):
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Speaker: that we generate out of it can (12:47):
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Speaker: seem overwhelming. (12:49):
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Speaker: And you go, well, how do how do I start analyzing this? (12:50):
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Speaker: I guess that brings me on then to a bit of a follow up. (12:53):
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Speaker: Then is like, how do you analyze it? (12:56):
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Speaker: And how do you make sure you're (12:58):
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Speaker: extracting like meaningful data, (12:59):
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Speaker: not just throwing data out into (13:01):
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Speaker: the world that maybe are just (13:03):
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Speaker: incidentalomas. (13:04):
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Speaker: And that's where it's important (13:06):
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Speaker: to have a focus on what you're (13:07):
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Speaker: looking for. (13:09):
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Speaker: So maybe a priori knowledge already of the potential target (13:09):
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Speaker: or targets. Maybe what the public health agency, you know, (13:14):
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Speaker: have asked for. (13:18):
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Speaker: And so if we go back to why we (13:18):
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Speaker: initially set up, we were (13:20):
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Speaker: generating data around SARS-2 (13:21):
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Speaker: levels within the community to (13:23):
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Speaker: give them an idea of the (13:25):
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Speaker: relative amount that was present (13:27):
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Speaker: there. (13:28):
undefined
Speaker: And then also, we were doing (13:29):
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Speaker: sequencing to give them an idea (13:31):
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Speaker: of what variants were (13:32):
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Speaker: circulating at that moment in (13:33):
undefined
Speaker: time. (13:34):
undefined
Speaker: So if we focus on a single pathogen here being SARS, that's (13:35):
undefined
Speaker: the sort of data that we were extracting and then passing on. (13:38):
undefined
Speaker: Likewise for a number of our (13:42):
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Speaker: other viral, uh, and bacterial (13:44):
undefined
Speaker: targets, (13:46):
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Speaker: that's what the sort that you'd (13:47):
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Speaker: focus on. That one, that one (13:48):
undefined
Speaker: thing. (13:49):
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Speaker: But then when you start looking (13:50):
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Speaker: at this rich data source and you (13:52):
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Speaker: start thinking about what I can, (13:53):
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Speaker: you know, if I want to take an (13:55):
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Speaker: unbiased look and start to look (13:56):
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Speaker: at seeing what, um, (13:58):
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Speaker: antimicrobial resistance you're (14:00):
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Speaker: seeing there genomically within (14:03):
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Speaker: the wastewater. (14:04):
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Speaker: Just just to focus on that for a moment. (14:05):
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Speaker: So yes, it's an extremely rich data source. (14:07):
undefined
Speaker: And often the data sets that you generate, you find yourself (14:10):
undefined
Speaker: coming back to to go, right. (14:13):
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Speaker: Well, what else can I look for now. (14:15):
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Speaker: And, and that that is what is also quite, uh, pure about and (14:16):
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Speaker: interesting about environmental, uh, wastewater sampling is that, (14:21):
undefined
Speaker: you know, while you may have a question to answer at that (14:26):
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Speaker: moment in time and a need to pass on information about that, (14:28):
undefined
Speaker: you can always come back and start looking for other things. (14:31):
undefined
Speaker: And it's probably would have a (14:35):
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Speaker: use if there's, say, a future (14:36):
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Speaker: pandemic. (14:37):
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Speaker: How early were we seeing traces of it in in wastewater? (14:38):
undefined
Speaker: You know, like with Covid, they (14:42):
undefined
Speaker: went and retrospectively looked (14:44):
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Speaker: at some blood samples, and they (14:45):
undefined
Speaker: found that it had probably been (14:46):
undefined
Speaker: circulating for a number of (14:47):
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Speaker: months before it was being (14:49):
undefined
Speaker: picked up. (14:50):
undefined
Speaker: I suppose you've got that rich (14:50):
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Speaker: data source that you can always (14:52):
undefined
Speaker: go back. (14:53):
undefined
Speaker: And I think for me, when I first started hearing about wastewater (14:54):
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Speaker: sampling for COVID, I just thought, goodness me, that's (14:58):
undefined
Speaker: such a clever way to do large scale monitoring of trends. (15:00):
undefined
Speaker: You've hit the nail on the head. (15:04):
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Speaker: That's what wastewater groups, ourselves included, have been at (15:05):
undefined
Speaker: pains to do is to keep the samples, the raw samples, and (15:09):
undefined
Speaker: extracting nucleic acid from from the programs. (15:13):
undefined
Speaker: And so we've all built up a biobank of wastewater samples (15:17):
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Speaker: collected during our program's lifetime, and other groups are (15:21):
undefined
Speaker: doing the same. (15:26):
undefined
Speaker: Those programs that are still (15:27):
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Speaker: running. Because this is very (15:28):
undefined
Speaker: important to have that so that (15:30):
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Speaker: we could go back into those (15:32):
undefined
Speaker: samples should something new (15:34):
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Speaker: emerge and say, well, actually, (15:36):
undefined
Speaker: now that we know what we're (15:38):
undefined
Speaker: looking for, (15:39):
undefined
Speaker: if we hadn't known that before it emerged, (15:40):
undefined
Speaker: would we have been able to detect it sooner? (15:42):
undefined
Speaker: And that's where having a (15:44):
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Speaker: biobank is, is incredibly (15:45):
undefined
Speaker: important. (15:47):
undefined
Speaker: And I think there's not there's not a single scientist who (15:47):
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Speaker: wouldn't give their their left or right arm to actually have (15:50):
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Speaker: some wastewater pre SARS-2 because now, you know, could we (15:53):
undefined
Speaker: have gone right back if say there was a, you know, the (15:58):
undefined
Speaker: collection and the banking of wastewater samples that have (16:02):
undefined
Speaker: been happening as just as a matter of fact, would we have (16:05):
undefined
Speaker: actually detected that in wastewater much sooner than it (16:08):
undefined
Speaker: was detected. Because we only detected it when we knew what we (16:12):
undefined
Speaker: were looking for. (16:15):
undefined
Speaker: If we can generate a rich enough data source, understanding what (16:16):
undefined
Speaker: the baseline is, but understanding that baseline will (16:21):
undefined
Speaker: shift and move a little bit with the seasons as they progress and (16:25):
undefined
Speaker: the natural sort of seasonal infections that we go through. (16:29):
undefined
Speaker: Uh, but if we have a baseline (16:33):
undefined
Speaker: there and if we are using the (16:34):
undefined
Speaker: scenario that this is going to (16:37):
undefined
Speaker: be something we haven't seen (16:38):
undefined
Speaker: before. (16:39):
undefined
Speaker: And we start to see an uptick in something strange. Very quickly. (16:40):
undefined
Speaker: there can be a concerted effort (16:44):
undefined
Speaker: to understand what actually is (16:46):
undefined
Speaker: this? (16:48):
undefined
Speaker: And then when you feed that (16:49):
undefined
Speaker: information in with all the (16:51):
undefined
Speaker: other, as they like to call it, (16:52):
undefined
Speaker: you know, syndromic sort of (16:54):
undefined
Speaker: information where, you know, can (16:55):
undefined
Speaker: you quickly plug that in and (16:57):
undefined
Speaker: see? (16:58):
undefined
Speaker: Well, actually, we're also seeing, you know, an uptick in (16:58):
undefined
Speaker: in sicknesses, people taking days off from work. (17:01):
undefined
Speaker: We're seeing an uptick in people visiting GPs. (17:04):
undefined
Speaker: We're seeing an uptick in (17:06):
undefined
Speaker: actual, you know, hospital (17:08):
undefined
Speaker: visits. (17:09):
undefined
Speaker: You can quickly generate a picture of, well, is there (17:10):
undefined
Speaker: something new brewing here? (17:13):
undefined
Speaker: And, um, going to upset society again? (17:15):
undefined
Speaker: It certainly might be more (17:19):
undefined
Speaker: efficient than a lot of the flu (17:20):
undefined
Speaker: monitoring that goes on each (17:22):
undefined
Speaker: year. (17:23):
undefined
Speaker: You know, around picking the strains to go into the vaccine, (17:23):
undefined
Speaker: where it's a lot of nasal swabs to see what's doing the rounds. (17:25):
undefined
Speaker: I mean, obviously there, you know, you're mentioning that (17:29):
undefined
Speaker: wastewater is a really rich source of, of of data. You're (17:31):
undefined
Speaker: looking for RNA and DNA, (17:35):
undefined
Speaker: what are the particular (17:38):
undefined
Speaker: pathogens at the moment that (17:39):
undefined
Speaker: you're looking for in these (17:40):
undefined
Speaker: samples? (17:41):
undefined
Speaker: We during the wastewater program, uh, looked for quite a (17:42):
undefined
Speaker: few, uh, viral targets. (17:46):
undefined
Speaker: We looked at, obviously the (17:49):
undefined
Speaker: aforementioned SARS-2, we looked (17:51):
undefined
Speaker: at RSV, we looked at enterovirus (17:52):
undefined
Speaker: D68, we looked at adenovirus, we (17:56):
undefined
Speaker: looked for influenza A. And so (17:58):
undefined
Speaker: those are all things that we had (18:01):
undefined
Speaker: in our toolkit, uh, as the as (18:03):
undefined
Speaker: the wastewater surveillance (18:05):
undefined
Speaker: program matured. (18:06):
undefined
Speaker: And so those are the the same (18:07):
undefined
Speaker: things that we continue to look (18:08):
undefined
Speaker: for. (18:10):
undefined
Speaker: We brainstorm about what else is important, talking to our (18:10):
undefined
Speaker: collaborators, the people across the, you know, agricultural (18:13):
undefined
Speaker: sphere, across the health sphere about what worries them. (18:16):
undefined
Speaker: What should we be thinking, looking for? (18:19):
undefined
Speaker: And so when it comes to then the (18:21):
undefined
Speaker: other side of the coin with (18:23):
undefined
Speaker: bacteria, we're of course very (18:25):
undefined
Speaker: interested in AMR as, as, uh, as (18:26):
undefined
Speaker: associated with bacteria and, (18:30):
undefined
Speaker: and looking for certain, uh, (18:32):
undefined
Speaker: culprits within within that (18:34):
undefined
Speaker: within the bacteriome so to (18:36):
undefined
Speaker: speak. (18:38):
undefined
Speaker: So, you know, we don't (18:38):
undefined
Speaker: necessarily we have specific (18:40):
undefined
Speaker: targets that we look for, but we (18:42):
undefined
Speaker: always are looking at (18:43):
undefined
Speaker: everything. (18:44):
undefined
Speaker: So we are looking at the virome, we are looking at the bacteriome (18:44):
undefined
Speaker: and we are looking at the fungiome. (18:48):
undefined
Speaker: Fungi are incredibly important to understand. (18:49):
undefined
Speaker: They're incredibly diverse, (18:53):
undefined
Speaker: Um, Kingdom um, and they're incredibly important. (18:56):
undefined
Speaker: And also they have their own (19:02):
undefined
Speaker: villains within them that have (19:04):
undefined
Speaker: influenced human health quite (19:06):
undefined
Speaker: dramatically. (19:08):
undefined
Speaker: And we do often talk about AMR in is in a relation to bacteria, (19:09):
undefined
Speaker: but there are resistant, uh, fungi on the horizon. (19:15):
undefined
Speaker: They've been around quite a while and they are even more (19:20):
undefined
Speaker: difficult to get rid of. (19:23):
undefined
Speaker: So when you not only identify then which particular, you know, (19:25):
undefined
Speaker: viruses, bacteria or fungi are in species, Are you then running (19:29):
undefined
Speaker: screening tests, then to see their current resistance state (19:34):
undefined
Speaker: for one of the projects that we have just finished? (19:37):
undefined
Speaker: We absolutely thought it was important to take a culturomics (19:39):
undefined
Speaker: approach, as we called it, to what we were doing. (19:43):
undefined
Speaker: So in this case, we were doing (19:45):
undefined
Speaker: air and wastewater surveillance (19:46):
undefined
Speaker: within a nursing home here in (19:48):
undefined
Speaker: Northern Ireland. (19:50):
undefined
Speaker: And we work very closely with the owners of the nursing home. (19:51):
undefined
Speaker: We thought it was incredibly (19:54):
undefined
Speaker: important to differentiate (19:56):
undefined
Speaker: between what you see, (19:58):
undefined
Speaker: genomically, so you can do all (19:59):
undefined
Speaker: this sequencing and you can see (20:01):
undefined
Speaker: you've got these AMR targets, (20:03):
undefined
Speaker: genomically. (20:04):
undefined
Speaker: But it's important to understand (20:05):
undefined
Speaker: what is being expressed (20:06):
undefined
Speaker: phenotypically because you can't (20:08):
undefined
Speaker: just look at something, all this (20:09):
undefined
Speaker: genomic information say, right, (20:11):
undefined
Speaker: I have this really, really bad (20:13):
undefined
Speaker: resistance, let's ring the alarm (20:14):
undefined
Speaker: bell, whatever and worry about (20:16):
undefined
Speaker: it. (20:18):
undefined
Speaker: But unless that is actually (20:18):
undefined
Speaker: being expressed, there's not (20:20):
undefined
Speaker: necessarily the sense and (20:22):
undefined
Speaker: immediately panicking about this all (20:23):
undefined
Speaker: so it is. (20:26):
undefined
Speaker: So it's important that even with all the advances that we have in (20:26):
undefined
Speaker: a field like microbiology, where we have incredibly sophisticated (20:30):
undefined
Speaker: molecular tools, sequencers, everything that can do things (20:34):
undefined
Speaker: now in half a day or a day, what, you know, fifteen, twenty (20:37):
undefined
Speaker: years ago probably took the guts of a week or more. (20:41):
undefined
Speaker: It's important to understand that old school microbiology is (20:44):
undefined
Speaker: still very, very important. (20:48):
undefined
Speaker: That old school culture that (20:50):
undefined
Speaker: that is, yes, can be time (20:52):
undefined
Speaker: consuming, (20:53):
undefined
Speaker: but again, with advances in technology can make that much (20:54):
undefined
Speaker: easier for us. (20:58):
undefined
Speaker: It is important that you look at (20:59):
undefined
Speaker: things from a cultural point of (21:00):
undefined
Speaker: view when we're talking about (21:02):
undefined
Speaker: AMR. (21:03):
undefined
Speaker: It really is. (21:04):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. (21:05):
undefined
Speaker: Like, you know, you often see these, uh, you know, tabloid (21:06):
undefined
Speaker: headlines of fatal pathogens found in fridge. (21:08):
undefined
Speaker: It's like, okay, that's grand, (21:11):
undefined
Speaker: but are they going to actually (21:12):
undefined
Speaker: do anything when they get near a (21:14):
undefined
Speaker: human? (21:15):
undefined
Speaker: And if they come out of the fridge, do they die? (21:15):
undefined
Speaker: You mentioned there earlier that, you know, some people are (21:18):
undefined
Speaker: looking at wastewater for other molecules and macromolecules. (21:20):
undefined
Speaker: And the term for that is bioprospecting. (21:24):
undefined
Speaker: Essentially the the exploration of natural resources for small (21:26):
undefined
Speaker: molecules, macromolecules, you know, other biochemical and (21:29):
undefined
Speaker: genetic information, and it is becoming increasingly common. (21:33):
undefined
Speaker: So what role then, does Bioprospecting play in (21:36):
undefined
Speaker: developing new pharmaceuticals or health solutions? (21:39):
undefined
Speaker: You've hit the nail on the head about describing it. (21:42):
undefined
Speaker: So Bioprospecting, of course, is a very fancy term. (21:45):
undefined
Speaker: Um, but it's something that isn't new. (21:49):
undefined
Speaker: It's something that, uh, science (21:51):
undefined
Speaker: has been doing for a very long (21:54):
undefined
Speaker: time. (21:55):
undefined
Speaker: And it's just quite simply searching for those novel (21:55):
undefined
Speaker: compounds, those resources within nature that can have a (22:00):
undefined
Speaker: positive impact on society. (22:05):
undefined
Speaker: And, and when I talk about this, (22:07):
undefined
Speaker: um, you know, in my field and (22:09):
undefined
Speaker: understanding things, it's about (22:11):
undefined
Speaker: that positive impact on human (22:12):
undefined
Speaker: health. And wastewater has often (22:14):
undefined
Speaker: been a resource that's been used (22:18):
undefined
Speaker: in the past exactly for this, (22:20):
undefined
Speaker: but it's not widely published or (22:22):
undefined
Speaker: talked about. (22:25):
undefined
Speaker: And, um, for a long time, whenever you've had chronic, (22:26):
undefined
Speaker: severe infections that just cannot be treated or cleared by (22:30):
undefined
Speaker: the antimicrobials that the clinicians have to hand. (22:34):
undefined
Speaker: There's been plenty of other situations in the past where (22:38):
undefined
Speaker: groups, scientists have gone into the local wastewater to extract (22:44):
undefined
Speaker: a cocktail of bacteriophages and screen them to see if any of (22:49):
undefined
Speaker: those would be suitable for for basically killing off this, this (22:54):
undefined
Speaker: bacteria that is causing such a problem for that patient. (22:58):
undefined
Speaker: And bacteriophages love to eat up bacteria. (23:03):
undefined
Speaker: And they're not only do they love eat up bacteria, but they (23:06):
undefined
Speaker: can be very selective about what particular bacteria they want to (23:09):
undefined
Speaker: go to town on. (23:12):
undefined
Speaker: And so there has been a lot of work isolating bacteriophages, (23:13):
undefined
Speaker: bioprospecting, bacteriophages out of wastewater and using them (23:18):
undefined
Speaker: to treat individuals that have severe cases of infection caused (23:22):
undefined
Speaker: by multidrug resistant bacteria. (23:27):
undefined
Speaker: And that and there has been good results from that. (23:29):
undefined
Speaker: And so that's something that's slowly gaining pace. (23:33):
undefined
Speaker: Like with any new technology, (23:36):
undefined
Speaker: there's a bit of effort involved (23:38):
undefined
Speaker: in it. (23:39):
undefined
Speaker: There's quite a cost sink involved in it. (23:39):
undefined
Speaker: It's not something just yet for everyone all the time, but with (23:41):
undefined
Speaker: enough effort put into that it very quickly could reach that. (23:47):
undefined
Speaker: So it gives us another load of (23:51):
undefined
Speaker: weapons in our arsenal to combat (23:53):
undefined
Speaker: antimicrobial resistance. (23:56):
undefined
Speaker: You're right in saying now, with the challenge and the increasing (23:57):
undefined
Speaker: challenge of AMR antimicrobial resistance, that maybe (24:00):
undefined
Speaker: bacteriophages is something that the world needs to be putting a (24:04):
undefined
Speaker: lot of effort into. (24:06):
undefined
Speaker: We maybe need to look at that sort of personalized approach (24:07):
undefined
Speaker: for treating infections. (24:11):
undefined
Speaker: And are there ethical considerations involved then in (24:13):
undefined
Speaker: bioprospecting that maybe researchers should be aware of? (24:16):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's it's really (24:20):
undefined
Speaker: important for all branches of (24:22):
undefined
Speaker: science to understand what (24:24):
undefined
Speaker: considerations, ethical (24:26):
undefined
Speaker: considerations that they need to (24:28):
undefined
Speaker: be aware of in the research that (24:30):
undefined
Speaker: they're doing. And in the the (24:32):
undefined
Speaker: story with just or the what (24:34):
undefined
Speaker: we've just been talking about (24:35):
undefined
Speaker: there. (24:37):
undefined
Speaker: We need to understand as a (24:37):
undefined
Speaker: community, if that's not (24:38):
undefined
Speaker: wastewater, for example, if (24:40):
undefined
Speaker: that's another type of natural (24:41):
undefined
Speaker: resource, you know, where does (24:42):
undefined
Speaker: that ownership lie in utilizing (24:44):
undefined
Speaker: that resource? (24:47):
undefined
Speaker: Um, if you're going to if you're, for example, trying to (24:48):
undefined
Speaker: look for something in pristine environments that hasn't been (24:50):
undefined
Speaker: impacted by by human activity to search them for new (24:53):
undefined
Speaker: antimicrobials or new compounds, then will, of course, you know, (24:58):
undefined
Speaker: you need to engage with anyone that you know. (25:01):
undefined
Speaker: If you're if we're talking like we're talking maybe the Canadian (25:05):
undefined
Speaker: tundra here or whatever, you know, just to throw some (25:08):
undefined
Speaker: examples out or somewhere in, you know, the Australian (25:10):
undefined
Speaker: wilderness, you know, there's going to be first peoples there. (25:14):
undefined
Speaker: And so any benefit you glean (25:17):
undefined
Speaker: from that, shouldn't just benefit (25:19):
undefined
Speaker: a select few people, it should (25:22):
undefined
Speaker: benefit everyone. (25:23):
undefined
Speaker: And I think that that's quite simply at its core, the ethical (25:25):
undefined
Speaker: considerations you have to give. (25:29):
undefined
Speaker: And I understand I'm saying that whenever we we live in a (25:32):
undefined
Speaker: capitalistic society, but you can't just take and benefit a (25:35):
undefined
Speaker: few, because they can afford it. (25:40):
undefined
Speaker: It must be for the benefit of all. (25:42):
undefined
Speaker: Because, getting back to what we (25:43):
undefined
Speaker: first talked about, everything (25:45):
undefined
Speaker: is connected. (25:48):
undefined
Speaker: You cannot just think about (25:49):
undefined
Speaker: yourself and just healing (25:51):
undefined
Speaker: yourself. (25:53):
undefined
Speaker: I think we really saw that, didn't we, with COVID and, you (25:54):
undefined
Speaker: know, previously in HIV, just because an infection starts in (25:56):
undefined
Speaker: one part of the world or one community, doesn't mean that (26:00):
undefined
Speaker: it's not going to spread. (26:04):
undefined
Speaker: And particularly then, you know, (26:05):
undefined
Speaker: we're not safe until we're all (26:07):
undefined
Speaker: safe. (26:09):
undefined
Speaker: I think that's an important (26:09):
undefined
Speaker: principle to take away from (26:10):
undefined
Speaker: that. (26:11):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah, exactly, exactly. (26:12):
undefined
Speaker: We've we've got, um, you know, we're a global society. (26:13):
undefined
Speaker: We move around, we want to go on holiday. (26:16):
undefined
Speaker: We want to go visit other countries. (26:18):
undefined
Speaker: We travel for work, everything like that there. (26:20):
undefined
Speaker: And pathogens do not respect international borders. (26:22):
undefined
Speaker: They're not stopping showing their passport like that there. (26:26):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah. (26:30):
undefined
Speaker: I think something you touched (26:31):
undefined
Speaker: upon earlier there about the (26:31):
undefined
Speaker: environmental changes. (26:33):
undefined
Speaker: So pathogens, you know, we could be carrying pathogens home in (26:34):
undefined
Speaker: our, our clothes from, you know, higher temperature areas that (26:37):
undefined
Speaker: traditionally may not have survived this far north. (26:41):
undefined
Speaker: You and I are both fairly north in terms of the globe. (26:44):
undefined
Speaker: And now with changing climate, (26:48):
undefined
Speaker: we're seeing pathogens that may (26:50):
undefined
Speaker: have once been comfortable at (26:53):
undefined
Speaker: more warmer temperatures, are (26:54):
undefined
Speaker: surviving and thriving further (26:56):
undefined
Speaker: north now. (26:58):
undefined
Speaker: And I think exactly that, that whole thing, we're not safe (26:58):
undefined
Speaker: until we're all safe. (27:01):
undefined
Speaker: You might carry an insect bag with you or or the changes in (27:02):
undefined
Speaker: those temperatures influence the fact that mosquitoes can move a (27:06):
undefined
Speaker: bit further north. (27:10):
undefined
Speaker: They are of growing concern because just recently this year, (27:11):
undefined
Speaker: the EU has recorded cases of yellow fever and West Nile virus (27:14):
undefined
Speaker: and that not spreading in countries such as France, (27:21):
undefined
Speaker: Portugal, Italy, Romania. (27:24):
undefined
Speaker: So it's important to understand we're not just, you know, having (27:25):
undefined
Speaker: a wee conversation. (27:31):
undefined
Speaker: This stuff's already here. (27:32):
undefined
Speaker: So it is. (27:33):
undefined
Speaker: And it will only continue unless (27:34):
undefined
Speaker: we as a community and as a (27:37):
undefined
Speaker: community, as a scientific (27:40):
undefined
Speaker: community, um, do our best to, (27:41):
undefined
Speaker: to find ways of of halting that (27:44):
undefined
Speaker: spread. (27:46):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah. (27:47):
undefined
Speaker: I mean, you say it. (27:47):
undefined
Speaker: It is already in Portugal and France. (27:48):
undefined
Speaker: I was I was giving blood a (27:49):
undefined
Speaker: couple of weeks ago, and when (27:50):
undefined
Speaker: they were going through my (27:52):
undefined
Speaker: travel history, they were going (27:52):
undefined
Speaker: through particular maps of where (27:53):
undefined
Speaker: I had been in France recently (27:55):
undefined
Speaker: because of the, the, the rise in (27:56):
undefined
Speaker: tick borne pathogens in some of (27:59):
undefined
Speaker: those areas. (28:00):
undefined
Speaker: It's been really quite interesting. (28:01):
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Speaker: Do you know what, (28:03):
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Speaker: I think that's a really great place to end this episode. (28:03):
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Speaker: It's been fascinating to learn about the role of wastewater (28:06):
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Speaker: monitoring in both epidemiology and potentially pandemic (28:09):
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Speaker: preparedness, and the importance of working together across many (28:13):
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Speaker: stakeholders to tap into this rich resource of data. (28:16):
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Speaker: We also talked about the rise of zoonotic diseases and the (28:21):
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Speaker: importance in understanding our role as humans. (28:23):
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Speaker: When we start to encroach more into areas with other species (28:26):
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Speaker: that can result in bite back, as you say, Doctor Lee. (28:29):
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Speaker: In the next episode, Doctor Lee (28:33):
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Speaker: and I continue to discuss the (28:34):
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Speaker: more technical details of (28:37):
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Speaker: wastewater and air sampling for (28:38):
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Speaker: population health monitoring and (28:40):
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Speaker: learn about some great real (28:42):
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Speaker: world examples. (28:43):
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Speaker: Going Macro on Micro is a podcast series supported by (28:45):
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Speaker: Beckman Coulter exploring emerging themes in microbiology. (28:47):
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Speaker: Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to. (28:51):
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Speaker: Stay up to date with each new episode as it's released. (28:53):
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Speaker: You can also join our online (28:57):
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Speaker: community by searching for (28:58):
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Speaker: Beckman Coulter Microbiology on (29:00):
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Speaker: LinkedIn. (29:02):
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Speaker: There you'll find discussions on (29:03):
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Speaker: a variety of interesting (29:04):
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Speaker: microbiology topics. (29:06):
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Speaker: Until next time when we go macro and micro. (29:07):
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Speaker: Goodbye. (29:09):
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Speaker: on Micro, the podcast where we (00:09):
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Speaker: explore emerging themes in (00:11):
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Speaker: microbiology. (00:12):
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Speaker: Brought to you by Beckman-coulter. (00:14):
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Speaker: I am your host, Doctor Julie Ann (00:15):
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Speaker: Lough, a science communicator, (00:17):
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Speaker: passionate about sharing stories (00:19):
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Speaker: exploring the future of health (00:20):
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Speaker: and science. (00:22):
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Speaker: In this, our second series, we (00:23):
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Speaker: continue to explore the concept (00:25):
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Speaker: of One health, an integrated (00:27):
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Speaker: approach that recognizes that (00:29):
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Speaker: the health of people, animals, (00:31):
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Speaker: and ecosystems are all (00:33):
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Speaker: interconnected. (00:35):
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Speaker: As we confront the challenges like pandemics and antibiotic (00:37):
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Speaker: resistance, it's evident that no one exists in a vacuum. (00:40):
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Speaker: We are all in this together. (00:45):
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Speaker: In this episode, we will explore the role of environmental (00:47):
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Speaker: surveillance in One Health. (00:51):
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Speaker: Joining me for this episode is (00:53):
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Speaker: Doctor Andrew Lee, a senior (00:55):
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Speaker: research fellow in microbiology (00:57):
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Speaker: at Queen's University Belfast in (00:58):
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Speaker: the UK. (01:00):
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Speaker: His research focuses on environmental sampling as a tool (01:02):
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Speaker: in epidemiology and its use in monitoring the emergence of (01:05):
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Speaker: antimicrobial resistance, or AMR and other pathogens. (01:09):
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Speaker: Doctor Lee, welcome to going Macro on Micro. (01:14):
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Speaker: Hello and thanks for having me. (01:17):
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Speaker: No, absolutely welcome. (01:18):
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Speaker: First off, for those listeners (01:20):
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Speaker: who may not have tuned in to our (01:22):
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Speaker: first series, and I highly (01:24):
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Speaker: encourage you to do so, there (01:26):
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Speaker: are some fantastic content (01:27):
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Speaker: there. But if you haven't (01:28):
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Speaker: listened yet, Doctor Lee, can (01:30):
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Speaker: you briefly tell us what the One (01:32):
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Speaker: Health Concept entails and why (01:35):
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Speaker: it's critical to today's health (01:37):
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Speaker: landscape? (01:38):
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Speaker: I think you've you've already done it justice there in your (01:39):
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Speaker: introduction, uh, briefly, it can be summarized quite simply (01:42):
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Speaker: as everything is connected. (01:46):
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Speaker: But if we want to elaborate on (01:48):
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Speaker: that a little bit, it's, it's, (01:50):
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Speaker: it's realizing that not just us, (01:51):
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Speaker: but all the other animals, all (01:54):
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Speaker: the plants and the myriad of (01:56):
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Speaker: other biotic and abiotic (01:57):
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Speaker: elements in our various shared (01:59):
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Speaker: ecosystems or global environment (02:01):
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Speaker: are fundamentally (02:03):
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Speaker: interconnected. (02:04):
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Speaker: And a lot of this has come about (02:05):
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Speaker: because, I mean, there has been (02:07):
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Speaker: unprecedented human impact on (02:09):
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Speaker: the environment in recent (02:11):
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Speaker: centuries. (02:12):
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Speaker: We have been lucky to have (02:13):
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Speaker: formidable transformations that (02:15):
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Speaker: really have changed our lives, (02:17):
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Speaker: such as industrialization, (02:19):
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Speaker: urbanization, you know, (02:21):
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Speaker: globalization. (02:22):
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Speaker: But with that, other things have suffered. (02:23):
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Speaker: And that is despite those those (02:26):
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Speaker: big strides we have made that (02:29):
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Speaker: have advanced health quite (02:30):
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Speaker: markedly. (02:32):
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Speaker: This has also caused, um, other aspects that are obviously (02:33):
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Speaker: interlinked with that to suffer. (02:39):
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Speaker: We're acutely aware that climate (02:41):
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Speaker: change is accelerating. (02:43):
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Speaker: Biodiversity is declining, and (02:46):
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Speaker: we have global conflicts, war, (02:48):
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Speaker: um, we have crisis of food (02:50):
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Speaker: insecurity and fresh water (02:52):
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Speaker: scarcity. (02:54):
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Speaker: Um, and then along with all those problems, it is the impact (02:55):
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Speaker: then of infectious disease, both new and re-emerging (03:00):
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Speaker: non-communicable diseases and of course antimicrobial resistance. (03:03):
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Speaker: So, while we evolve, while we (03:09):
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Speaker: move forward, well, some people (03:11):
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Speaker: may not agree with how, you (03:13):
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Speaker: know, human society has has (03:15):
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Speaker: moved in the strides that we (03:17):
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Speaker: have made. (03:18):
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Speaker: You know, uh, at the technological level, scientific (03:19):
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Speaker: level, what have you. (03:22):
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Speaker: But, you know, we are having an impact on the environment. (03:24):
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Speaker: And and it's critical that the listeners understand that. (03:26):
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Speaker: Yeah. (03:31):
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Speaker: I think that's a really good (03:32):
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Speaker: point, isn't it, that like, (03:32):
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Speaker: while some people might disagree (03:34):
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Speaker: on the science of it or might (03:36):
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Speaker: not like to acknowledge climate (03:38):
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Speaker: change, the reality is, is (03:39):
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Speaker: there, you know, the environment (03:41):
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Speaker: is having an impact on human (03:42):
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Speaker: health. (03:44):
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Speaker: And likewise, human activity is (03:44):
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Speaker: having an impact on animal (03:46):
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Speaker: health and things like (03:48):
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Speaker: antimicrobial resistance. (03:49):
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Speaker: So you mentioned there a little (03:51):
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Speaker: bit about the environment and (03:52):
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Speaker: your expertise lies in (03:54):
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Speaker: environmental microbiology, and (03:55):
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Speaker: I really want to explore the (03:57):
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Speaker: role of the environment in One (03:59):
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Speaker: health. (04:01):
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Speaker: So how do environmental factors (04:01):
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Speaker: influence the spread of zoonotic (04:03):
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Speaker: diseases? (04:05):
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Speaker: Quite simply, we've seen the (04:06):
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Speaker: emergence or re-emergence of of (04:08):
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Speaker: zoonotic pathogens that we know (04:11):
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Speaker: about and those that are new in (04:12):
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Speaker: the horizon. (04:15):
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Speaker: And that's all been accelerated (04:16):
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Speaker: by our increased global (04:17):
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Speaker: motility, mobility, even, um, (04:19):
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Speaker: and the aforementioned climate (04:22):
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Speaker: change. (04:24):
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Speaker: Our population is always getting bigger global population. (04:25):
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Speaker: And, you know, agricultural practices have obviously changed (04:28):
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Speaker: to keep pace with a growing population, a growing demand. (04:33):
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Speaker: If we try to squeeze so much (04:37):
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Speaker: more into a defined space that (04:39):
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Speaker: we're going to have an impact on (04:41):
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Speaker: the environment and we're going (04:43):
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Speaker: to influence the environment, (04:44):
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Speaker: and then in turn, that (04:46):
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Speaker: environment is going to bite (04:47):
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Speaker: back. (04:49):
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Speaker: And so, you know, you know, that climate change that people Will (04:49):
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Speaker: agree disagree with. (04:53):
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Speaker: Quite frankly, I'll be honest. (04:55):
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Speaker: I don't care whether you disagree with it. (04:57):
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Speaker: It's still happening. (04:59):
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Speaker: I mean, you can talk to people on the ground. (05:01):
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Speaker: You can talk to fishermen that (05:03):
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Speaker: are actually interfacing with (05:04):
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Speaker: the environment daily because (05:06):
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Speaker: it's their lifeblood, their (05:07):
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Speaker: living. (05:08):
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Speaker: And you'll probably find that they'll just bluntly tell you (05:09):
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Speaker: how it is. (05:13):
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Speaker: Um, and so all those changes, those impacts that we're having (05:14):
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Speaker: on the environment will ultimately influence how (05:18):
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Speaker: zoonotic disease is spread. (05:22):
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Speaker: And so, you know, you have large scale agriculture of chickens (05:24):
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Speaker: and all that. (05:27):
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Speaker: And so with that comes the risk (05:27):
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Speaker: of potentially, you know, high (05:29):
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Speaker: path avian influenzas, uh, (05:30):
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Speaker: getting into the food chain or (05:33):
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Speaker: infecting ourselves. (05:35):
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Speaker: And then you have the spread of, (05:37):
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Speaker: of, um, insects that carry with (05:39):
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Speaker: them various diseases that are (05:41):
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Speaker: transmitted, uh, to, to us (05:43):
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Speaker: humans. (05:45):
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Speaker: And of course, here I'm talking about like, tick borne diseases, (05:45):
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Speaker: mosquitoes, things like that. (05:49):
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Speaker: There you know. (05:51):
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Speaker: We just have to be acutely aware of that and not (05:51):
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Speaker: live in our own little bubble. (05:54):
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Speaker: Yeah. (05:55):
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Speaker: And as you were saying, the environment will will start to (05:56):
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Speaker: bite back a bit as we encroach on it more and more. (05:58):
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Speaker: And I think some people have (06:01):
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Speaker: become more aware of zoonotic (06:02):
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Speaker: diseases. (06:03):
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Speaker: You know, obviously COVID was a classic example. (06:04):
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Speaker: We're seeing bird flu has gone (06:06):
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Speaker: into other species and back (06:10):
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Speaker: again. (06:12):
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Speaker: And there might be mutations there. (06:12):
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Speaker: And that we need to keep an eye on that from that point of view (06:14):
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Speaker: because of that close proximity between different species. (06:16):
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Speaker: Given I suppose that one health (06:20):
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Speaker: then is inherently (06:22):
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Speaker: multidisciplinary, you know, (06:23):
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Speaker: it's not just microbiologists, (06:24):
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Speaker: it's not just human people, it's (06:26):
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Speaker: animal people, (06:27):
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Speaker: It's environmental people. (06:27):
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Speaker: What are your experiences, then, (06:29):
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Speaker: in collaboration between the (06:31):
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Speaker: different sectors, such as maybe (06:32):
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Speaker: health and environmental (06:34):
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Speaker: science? (06:35):
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Speaker: Obviously during, um, the the (06:36):
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Speaker: period of the COVID pandemic and (06:39):
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Speaker: what we did here in Northern (06:41):
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Speaker: Ireland, running the wastewater (06:43):
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Speaker: surveillance programme, we (06:44):
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Speaker: obviously had to work with a lot (06:46):
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Speaker: of partners, um, across (06:48):
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Speaker: disciplines that that previously (06:50):
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Speaker: we may not have crossed paths (06:52):
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Speaker: on. (06:53):
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Speaker: We grew those collaborations we had with the clinicians, with (06:54):
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Speaker: the people in the health sphere that we had worked quite closely (06:57):
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Speaker: with before then. (07:00):
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Speaker: And those worked perfectly, seamlessly, um, data sharing, (07:01):
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Speaker: all that, um, helping each other out with little problems and (07:06):
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Speaker: bits and pieces. (07:09):
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Speaker: And that's continued on still now the present day. (07:10):
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Speaker: Um, and, and that's been fantastic. (07:13):
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Speaker: But then we had to interface, uh, and likewise they had (07:15):
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Speaker: interface back with the physical sectors, the infrastructure (07:18):
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Speaker: sectors. Dealing with the water provider and all of that there. (07:22):
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Speaker: And so there was a learning curve for everyone through it (07:25):
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Speaker: all that that was quite steep. (07:29):
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Speaker: The fact that one health has this core at it is interconnected. (07:32):
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Speaker: Then whenever you're you're doing this sort of environmental (07:36):
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Speaker: monitoring that cannot be on its own, you're interconnected. (07:39):
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Speaker: You're automatically then (07:42):
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Speaker: plugging straight in to all the (07:43):
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Speaker: other, um, sectors within the, (07:45):
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Speaker: you know, the within government, (07:49):
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Speaker: within society. (07:51):
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Speaker: And you know, science is a is a collaborative effort. (07:52):
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Speaker: So it is let's be honest. It (07:55):
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Speaker: always has been and it always (07:57):
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Speaker: will be. (07:59):
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Speaker: And and so it has been (07:59):
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Speaker: interesting seeing those (08:01):
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Speaker: relationships grow and, and how (08:03):
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Speaker: we've it's been good to be able (08:05):
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Speaker: to keep those established as (08:07):
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Speaker: well. (08:08):
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Speaker: Indeed long may it continue. (08:09):
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Speaker: And I wonder as well, I suppose if you're dealing with (08:10):
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Speaker: government agencies, maybe wastewater, water companies, (08:13):
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Speaker: people who would never traditionally have been involved (08:16):
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Speaker: in health research as well. (08:18):
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Speaker: So that's probably been quite a (08:19):
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Speaker: steep learning learning curve (08:20):
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Speaker: for them. (08:22):
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Speaker: You mentioned there about (08:23):
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Speaker: environmental sampling and you (08:24):
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Speaker: talked a lot about wastewater (08:26):
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Speaker: sampling. (08:27):
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Speaker: Can you talk us just maybe for the listener who isn't familiar (08:28):
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Speaker: with wastewater sampling, what it involves, what sort of things (08:31):
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Speaker: you're looking for, and other types of environmental sampling (08:34):
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Speaker: that you might do. (08:38):
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Speaker: Our research group grew out of (08:39):
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Speaker: the meeting that immediate need (08:41):
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Speaker: to do wastewater surveillance (08:43):
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Speaker: before clinical testing was able (08:44):
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Speaker: to ramp up and keep pace with (08:46):
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Speaker: that. (08:48):
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Speaker: And that was the same even across all the First Nations. (08:48):
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Speaker: You know, if you if you want to put it that way, the most (08:52):
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Speaker: developed nations wastewater testing was immediately adopted (08:54):
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Speaker: to fill any and plug any gaps that we had in our information, (08:58):
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Speaker: in our knowledge sphere around the progression of SARS-2. (09:03):
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Speaker: And although we started out as a (09:06):
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Speaker: wastewater surveillance group, (09:08):
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Speaker: we very quickly have evolved (09:09):
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Speaker: into what we call an (09:11):
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Speaker: environmental epidemiology (09:13):
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Speaker: group. (09:15):
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Speaker: So we don't just now look at wastewater, we look at any type (09:15):
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Speaker: of environmental sample that you can care to think of. (09:19):
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Speaker: So we we do air sampling, (09:21):
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Speaker: freshwater marine water sampling (09:23):
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Speaker: and of course wastewater (09:26):
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Speaker: sampling, which is is how we (09:28):
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Speaker: started out in is our bread and (09:29):
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Speaker: butter. (09:31):
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Speaker: What the listener probably maybe doesn't know is that when you (09:32):
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Speaker: get those samples, there's quite a bit of front end work or (09:36):
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Speaker: processing that you need to do to initially get that sample (09:40):
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Speaker: into a format where you can start to analyze it, (09:45):
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Speaker: extract that meaningful data from it. (09:48):
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Speaker: And if we use wastewater as an example, we would get our raw (09:50):
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Speaker: wastewater at the inlet to the wastewater treatment plant. (09:54):
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Speaker: And before it's undergone any (09:57):
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Speaker: treatment or anything like that (09:59):
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Speaker: there. (10:00):
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Speaker: This is this is a representative sample of what the community is, (10:00):
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Speaker: Yeah, (10:04):
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Speaker: well peeing and pooping out so (10:05):
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Speaker: and so, you know. People (10:07):
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Speaker: probably have this image in (10:08):
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Speaker: their head of what that might (10:10):
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Speaker: look like. (10:11):
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Speaker: But to be honest with you, it's not as disgusting as you might (10:11):
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Speaker: first envisage it. (10:14):
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Speaker: It just looks like a very muddy rainwater sample. (10:16):
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Speaker: When we get that sample, then (10:19):
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Speaker: there's a few steps we have to (10:21):
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Speaker: go through (10:22):
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Speaker: first of all, with it and that. (10:22):
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Speaker: So the first thing that we do is we would clarify that sample, (10:24):
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Speaker: which is the scientific term, because we all like to have (10:27):
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Speaker: different terms for everything, of simply removing any solid (10:30):
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Speaker: material that may be in that. (10:33):
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Speaker: And that's, you know, uh, sand, grit, dirt, anything you want to (10:35):
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Speaker: care to mention, (10:39):
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Speaker: Toilet paper, (10:40):
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Speaker: there'll be some of that in there, no doubt. (10:41):
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Speaker: And, uh, then we need to concentrate that out going. (10:42):
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Speaker: And there's a variety of methods (10:45):
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Speaker: in different groups doing this (10:47):
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Speaker: have their own different (10:49):
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Speaker: approach as to how to to (10:49):
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Speaker: concentrate that down, to get at (10:51):
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Speaker: the, uh, get enough of that (10:53):
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Speaker: nucleic acid, that DNA, that RNA (10:55):
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Speaker: that we're interested in, that (10:57):
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Speaker: that gold, if you will, that's (10:58):
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Speaker: in in the wastewater sample that (11:00):
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Speaker: we then purify and that we can (11:02):
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Speaker: then analyze by a variety of, of (11:05):
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Speaker: molecular means, both PCR based (11:07):
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Speaker: non PCR based and and (11:10):
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Speaker: sequencing obviously. (11:12):
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Speaker: We we like to sequence all our samples, (11:13):
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Speaker: and see what's present in there. (11:16):
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Speaker: So it's quite a substantial (11:18):
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Speaker: amount of work and it's the RNA (11:19):
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Speaker: and DNA that you're looking at (11:21):
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Speaker: primarily. (11:22):
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Speaker: So you're looking at those (11:22):
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Speaker: microbiological samples and, and (11:23):
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Speaker: sequencing. (11:26):
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Speaker: Are you looking for other small molecules like macromolecules? (11:27):
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Speaker: Are you looking for anything else or are you purely just (11:31):
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Speaker: looking at RNA and DNA? (11:33):
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Speaker: So yeah, I mean we look for (11:35):
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Speaker: those those biological (11:36):
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Speaker: indicators. (11:38):
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Speaker: And for the longest time we of course focused on that genetic (11:39):
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Speaker: material that the DNA, the RNA. (11:42):
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Speaker: Because of course, you know, there are viruses that are both (11:45):
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Speaker: DNA based and RNA based. (11:47):
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Speaker: And of course, bacteria are DNA based. (11:49):
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Speaker: We're interested in those and all the way up. (11:51):
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Speaker: And you can even pick up parasites within, you know, the (11:53):
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Speaker: wastewater if you're lucky. (11:57):
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Speaker: Um, but but that data it is all, (11:59):
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Speaker: when we finally have it, it (12:02):
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Speaker: is worth understanding that it's (12:04):
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Speaker: pretty, (12:06):
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Speaker: It's a it's it's a pretty long process. (12:07):
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Speaker: But when I say long, you know, (12:10):
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Speaker: we are we're talking relatively (12:11):
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Speaker: speaking here. (12:13):
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Speaker: Now you know this can all be done, (12:14):
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Speaker: getting a sample from its raw form into nucleic acid can all (12:16):
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Speaker: be done in half a day. (12:19):
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Speaker: So it can, within the lab. (12:21):
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Speaker: Um, but there is a growing, uh, desire to look for other things (12:23):
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Speaker: within wastewater as well. (12:28):
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Speaker: And, and there's plenty of other (12:29):
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Speaker: groups that actually have a (12:30):
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Speaker: focus looking at drug residues, (12:31):
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Speaker: both legal and illegal drug (12:34):
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Speaker: residues, so they can get an (12:35):
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Speaker: idea of, you know, what is (12:37):
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Speaker: circulating at that moment in (12:39):
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Speaker: time. (12:40):
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Speaker: And so wastewater is an (12:41):
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Speaker: extremely rich data source, and (12:43):
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Speaker: sometimes the amount of data (12:45):
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Speaker: that we generate out of it can (12:47):
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Speaker: seem overwhelming. (12:49):
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Speaker: And you go, well, how do how do I start analyzing this? (12:50):
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Speaker: I guess that brings me on then to a bit of a follow up. (12:53):
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Speaker: Then is like, how do you analyze it? (12:56):
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Speaker: And how do you make sure you're (12:58):
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Speaker: extracting like meaningful data, (12:59):
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Speaker: not just throwing data out into (13:01):
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Speaker: the world that maybe are just (13:03):
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Speaker: incidentalomas. (13:04):
undefined
Speaker: And that's where it's important (13:06):
undefined
Speaker: to have a focus on what you're (13:07):
undefined
Speaker: looking for. (13:09):
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Speaker: So maybe a priori knowledge already of the potential target (13:09):
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Speaker: or targets. Maybe what the public health agency, you know, (13:14):
undefined
Speaker: have asked for. (13:18):
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Speaker: And so if we go back to why we (13:18):
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Speaker: initially set up, we were (13:20):
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Speaker: generating data around SARS-2 (13:21):
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Speaker: levels within the community to (13:23):
undefined
Speaker: give them an idea of the (13:25):
undefined
Speaker: relative amount that was present (13:27):
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Speaker: there. (13:28):
undefined
Speaker: And then also, we were doing (13:29):
undefined
Speaker: sequencing to give them an idea (13:31):
undefined
Speaker: of what variants were (13:32):
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Speaker: circulating at that moment in (13:33):
undefined
Speaker: time. (13:34):
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Speaker: So if we focus on a single pathogen here being SARS, that's (13:35):
undefined
Speaker: the sort of data that we were extracting and then passing on. (13:38):
undefined
Speaker: Likewise for a number of our (13:42):
undefined
Speaker: other viral, uh, and bacterial (13:44):
undefined
Speaker: targets, (13:46):
undefined
Speaker: that's what the sort that you'd (13:47):
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Speaker: focus on. That one, that one (13:48):
undefined
Speaker: thing. (13:49):
undefined
Speaker: But then when you start looking (13:50):
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Speaker: at this rich data source and you (13:52):
undefined
Speaker: start thinking about what I can, (13:53):
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Speaker: you know, if I want to take an (13:55):
undefined
Speaker: unbiased look and start to look (13:56):
undefined
Speaker: at seeing what, um, (13:58):
undefined
Speaker: antimicrobial resistance you're (14:00):
undefined
Speaker: seeing there genomically within (14:03):
undefined
Speaker: the wastewater. (14:04):
undefined
Speaker: Just just to focus on that for a moment. (14:05):
undefined
Speaker: So yes, it's an extremely rich data source. (14:07):
undefined
Speaker: And often the data sets that you generate, you find yourself (14:10):
undefined
Speaker: coming back to to go, right. (14:13):
undefined
Speaker: Well, what else can I look for now. (14:15):
undefined
Speaker: And, and that that is what is also quite, uh, pure about and (14:16):
undefined
Speaker: interesting about environmental, uh, wastewater sampling is that, (14:21):
undefined
Speaker: you know, while you may have a question to answer at that (14:26):
undefined
Speaker: moment in time and a need to pass on information about that, (14:28):
undefined
Speaker: you can always come back and start looking for other things. (14:31):
undefined
Speaker: And it's probably would have a (14:35):
undefined
Speaker: use if there's, say, a future (14:36):
undefined
Speaker: pandemic. (14:37):
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Speaker: How early were we seeing traces of it in in wastewater? (14:38):
undefined
Speaker: You know, like with Covid, they (14:42):
undefined
Speaker: went and retrospectively looked (14:44):
undefined
Speaker: at some blood samples, and they (14:45):
undefined
Speaker: found that it had probably been (14:46):
undefined
Speaker: circulating for a number of (14:47):
undefined
Speaker: months before it was being (14:49):
undefined
Speaker: picked up. (14:50):
undefined
Speaker: I suppose you've got that rich (14:50):
undefined
Speaker: data source that you can always (14:52):
undefined
Speaker: go back. (14:53):
undefined
Speaker: And I think for me, when I first started hearing about wastewater (14:54):
undefined
Speaker: sampling for COVID, I just thought, goodness me, that's (14:58):
undefined
Speaker: such a clever way to do large scale monitoring of trends. (15:00):
undefined
Speaker: You've hit the nail on the head. (15:04):
undefined
Speaker: That's what wastewater groups, ourselves included, have been at (15:05):
undefined
Speaker: pains to do is to keep the samples, the raw samples, and (15:09):
undefined
Speaker: extracting nucleic acid from from the programs. (15:13):
undefined
Speaker: And so we've all built up a biobank of wastewater samples (15:17):
undefined
Speaker: collected during our program's lifetime, and other groups are (15:21):
undefined
Speaker: doing the same. (15:26):
undefined
Speaker: Those programs that are still (15:27):
undefined
Speaker: running. Because this is very (15:28):
undefined
Speaker: important to have that so that (15:30):
undefined
Speaker: we could go back into those (15:32):
undefined
Speaker: samples should something new (15:34):
undefined
Speaker: emerge and say, well, actually, (15:36):
undefined
Speaker: now that we know what we're (15:38):
undefined
Speaker: looking for, (15:39):
undefined
Speaker: if we hadn't known that before it emerged, (15:40):
undefined
Speaker: would we have been able to detect it sooner? (15:42):
undefined
Speaker: And that's where having a (15:44):
undefined
Speaker: biobank is, is incredibly (15:45):
undefined
Speaker: important. (15:47):
undefined
Speaker: And I think there's not there's not a single scientist who (15:47):
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Speaker: wouldn't give their their left or right arm to actually have (15:50):
undefined
Speaker: some wastewater pre SARS-2 because now, you know, could we (15:53):
undefined
Speaker: have gone right back if say there was a, you know, the (15:58):
undefined
Speaker: collection and the banking of wastewater samples that have (16:02):
undefined
Speaker: been happening as just as a matter of fact, would we have (16:05):
undefined
Speaker: actually detected that in wastewater much sooner than it (16:08):
undefined
Speaker: was detected. Because we only detected it when we knew what we (16:12):
undefined
Speaker: were looking for. (16:15):
undefined
Speaker: If we can generate a rich enough data source, understanding what (16:16):
undefined
Speaker: the baseline is, but understanding that baseline will (16:21):
undefined
Speaker: shift and move a little bit with the seasons as they progress and (16:25):
undefined
Speaker: the natural sort of seasonal infections that we go through. (16:29):
undefined
Speaker: Uh, but if we have a baseline (16:33):
undefined
Speaker: there and if we are using the (16:34):
undefined
Speaker: scenario that this is going to (16:37):
undefined
Speaker: be something we haven't seen (16:38):
undefined
Speaker: before. (16:39):
undefined
Speaker: And we start to see an uptick in something strange. Very quickly. (16:40):
undefined
Speaker: there can be a concerted effort (16:44):
undefined
Speaker: to understand what actually is (16:46):
undefined
Speaker: this? (16:48):
undefined
Speaker: And then when you feed that (16:49):
undefined
Speaker: information in with all the (16:51):
undefined
Speaker: other, as they like to call it, (16:52):
undefined
Speaker: you know, syndromic sort of (16:54):
undefined
Speaker: information where, you know, can (16:55):
undefined
Speaker: you quickly plug that in and (16:57):
undefined
Speaker: see? (16:58):
undefined
Speaker: Well, actually, we're also seeing, you know, an uptick in (16:58):
undefined
Speaker: in sicknesses, people taking days off from work. (17:01):
undefined
Speaker: We're seeing an uptick in people visiting GPs. (17:04):
undefined
Speaker: We're seeing an uptick in (17:06):
undefined
Speaker: actual, you know, hospital (17:08):
undefined
Speaker: visits. (17:09):
undefined
Speaker: You can quickly generate a picture of, well, is there (17:10):
undefined
Speaker: something new brewing here? (17:13):
undefined
Speaker: And, um, going to upset society again? (17:15):
undefined
Speaker: It certainly might be more (17:19):
undefined
Speaker: efficient than a lot of the flu (17:20):
undefined
Speaker: monitoring that goes on each (17:22):
undefined
Speaker: year. (17:23):
undefined
Speaker: You know, around picking the strains to go into the vaccine, (17:23):
undefined
Speaker: where it's a lot of nasal swabs to see what's doing the rounds. (17:25):
undefined
Speaker: I mean, obviously there, you know, you're mentioning that (17:29):
undefined
Speaker: wastewater is a really rich source of, of of data. You're (17:31):
undefined
Speaker: looking for RNA and DNA, (17:35):
undefined
Speaker: what are the particular (17:38):
undefined
Speaker: pathogens at the moment that (17:39):
undefined
Speaker: you're looking for in these (17:40):
undefined
Speaker: samples? (17:41):
undefined
Speaker: We during the wastewater program, uh, looked for quite a (17:42):
undefined
Speaker: few, uh, viral targets. (17:46):
undefined
Speaker: We looked at, obviously the (17:49):
undefined
Speaker: aforementioned SARS-2, we looked (17:51):
undefined
Speaker: at RSV, we looked at enterovirus (17:52):
undefined
Speaker: D68, we looked at adenovirus, we (17:56):
undefined
Speaker: looked for influenza A. And so (17:58):
undefined
Speaker: those are all things that we had (18:01):
undefined
Speaker: in our toolkit, uh, as the as (18:03):
undefined
Speaker: the wastewater surveillance (18:05):
undefined
Speaker: program matured. (18:06):
undefined
Speaker: And so those are the the same (18:07):
undefined
Speaker: things that we continue to look (18:08):
undefined
Speaker: for. (18:10):
undefined
Speaker: We brainstorm about what else is important, talking to our (18:10):
undefined
Speaker: collaborators, the people across the, you know, agricultural (18:13):
undefined
Speaker: sphere, across the health sphere about what worries them. (18:16):
undefined
Speaker: What should we be thinking, looking for? (18:19):
undefined
Speaker: And so when it comes to then the (18:21):
undefined
Speaker: other side of the coin with (18:23):
undefined
Speaker: bacteria, we're of course very (18:25):
undefined
Speaker: interested in AMR as, as, uh, as (18:26):
undefined
Speaker: associated with bacteria and, (18:30):
undefined
Speaker: and looking for certain, uh, (18:32):
undefined
Speaker: culprits within within that (18:34):
undefined
Speaker: within the bacteriome so to (18:36):
undefined
Speaker: speak. (18:38):
undefined
Speaker: So, you know, we don't (18:38):
undefined
Speaker: necessarily we have specific (18:40):
undefined
Speaker: targets that we look for, but we (18:42):
undefined
Speaker: always are looking at (18:43):
undefined
Speaker: everything. (18:44):
undefined
Speaker: So we are looking at the virome, we are looking at the bacteriome (18:44):
undefined
Speaker: and we are looking at the fungiome. (18:48):
undefined
Speaker: Fungi are incredibly important to understand. (18:49):
undefined
Speaker: They're incredibly diverse, (18:53):
undefined
Speaker: Um, Kingdom um, and they're incredibly important. (18:56):
undefined
Speaker: And also they have their own (19:02):
undefined
Speaker: villains within them that have (19:04):
undefined
Speaker: influenced human health quite (19:06):
undefined
Speaker: dramatically. (19:08):
undefined
Speaker: And we do often talk about AMR in is in a relation to bacteria, (19:09):
undefined
Speaker: but there are resistant, uh, fungi on the horizon. (19:15):
undefined
Speaker: They've been around quite a while and they are even more (19:20):
undefined
Speaker: difficult to get rid of. (19:23):
undefined
Speaker: So when you not only identify then which particular, you know, (19:25):
undefined
Speaker: viruses, bacteria or fungi are in species, Are you then running (19:29):
undefined
Speaker: screening tests, then to see their current resistance state (19:34):
undefined
Speaker: for one of the projects that we have just finished? (19:37):
undefined
Speaker: We absolutely thought it was important to take a culturomics (19:39):
undefined
Speaker: approach, as we called it, to what we were doing. (19:43):
undefined
Speaker: So in this case, we were doing (19:45):
undefined
Speaker: air and wastewater surveillance (19:46):
undefined
Speaker: within a nursing home here in (19:48):
undefined
Speaker: Northern Ireland. (19:50):
undefined
Speaker: And we work very closely with the owners of the nursing home. (19:51):
undefined
Speaker: We thought it was incredibly (19:54):
undefined
Speaker: important to differentiate (19:56):
undefined
Speaker: between what you see, (19:58):
undefined
Speaker: genomically, so you can do all (19:59):
undefined
Speaker: this sequencing and you can see (20:01):
undefined
Speaker: you've got these AMR targets, (20:03):
undefined
Speaker: genomically. (20:04):
undefined
Speaker: But it's important to understand (20:05):
undefined
Speaker: what is being expressed (20:06):
undefined
Speaker: phenotypically because you can't (20:08):
undefined
Speaker: just look at something, all this (20:09):
undefined
Speaker: genomic information say, right, (20:11):
undefined
Speaker: I have this really, really bad (20:13):
undefined
Speaker: resistance, let's ring the alarm (20:14):
undefined
Speaker: bell, whatever and worry about (20:16):
undefined
Speaker: it. (20:18):
undefined
Speaker: But unless that is actually (20:18):
undefined
Speaker: being expressed, there's not (20:20):
undefined
Speaker: necessarily the sense and (20:22):
undefined
Speaker: immediately panicking about this all (20:23):
undefined
Speaker: so it is. (20:26):
undefined
Speaker: So it's important that even with all the advances that we have in (20:26):
undefined
Speaker: a field like microbiology, where we have incredibly sophisticated (20:30):
undefined
Speaker: molecular tools, sequencers, everything that can do things (20:34):
undefined
Speaker: now in half a day or a day, what, you know, fifteen, twenty (20:37):
undefined
Speaker: years ago probably took the guts of a week or more. (20:41):
undefined
Speaker: It's important to understand that old school microbiology is (20:44):
undefined
Speaker: still very, very important. (20:48):
undefined
Speaker: That old school culture that (20:50):
undefined
Speaker: that is, yes, can be time (20:52):
undefined
Speaker: consuming, (20:53):
undefined
Speaker: but again, with advances in technology can make that much (20:54):
undefined
Speaker: easier for us. (20:58):
undefined
Speaker: It is important that you look at (20:59):
undefined
Speaker: things from a cultural point of (21:00):
undefined
Speaker: view when we're talking about (21:02):
undefined
Speaker: AMR. (21:03):
undefined
Speaker: It really is. (21:04):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. (21:05):
undefined
Speaker: Like, you know, you often see these, uh, you know, tabloid (21:06):
undefined
Speaker: headlines of fatal pathogens found in fridge. (21:08):
undefined
Speaker: It's like, okay, that's grand, (21:11):
undefined
Speaker: but are they going to actually (21:12):
undefined
Speaker: do anything when they get near a (21:14):
undefined
Speaker: human? (21:15):
undefined
Speaker: And if they come out of the fridge, do they die? (21:15):
undefined
Speaker: You mentioned there earlier that, you know, some people are (21:18):
undefined
Speaker: looking at wastewater for other molecules and macromolecules. (21:20):
undefined
Speaker: And the term for that is bioprospecting. (21:24):
undefined
Speaker: Essentially the the exploration of natural resources for small (21:26):
undefined
Speaker: molecules, macromolecules, you know, other biochemical and (21:29):
undefined
Speaker: genetic information, and it is becoming increasingly common. (21:33):
undefined
Speaker: So what role then, does Bioprospecting play in (21:36):
undefined
Speaker: developing new pharmaceuticals or health solutions? (21:39):
undefined
Speaker: You've hit the nail on the head about describing it. (21:42):
undefined
Speaker: So Bioprospecting, of course, is a very fancy term. (21:45):
undefined
Speaker: Um, but it's something that isn't new. (21:49):
undefined
Speaker: It's something that, uh, science (21:51):
undefined
Speaker: has been doing for a very long (21:54):
undefined
Speaker: time. (21:55):
undefined
Speaker: And it's just quite simply searching for those novel (21:55):
undefined
Speaker: compounds, those resources within nature that can have a (22:00):
undefined
Speaker: positive impact on society. (22:05):
undefined
Speaker: And, and when I talk about this, (22:07):
undefined
Speaker: um, you know, in my field and (22:09):
undefined
Speaker: understanding things, it's about (22:11):
undefined
Speaker: that positive impact on human (22:12):
undefined
Speaker: health. And wastewater has often (22:14):
undefined
Speaker: been a resource that's been used (22:18):
undefined
Speaker: in the past exactly for this, (22:20):
undefined
Speaker: but it's not widely published or (22:22):
undefined
Speaker: talked about. (22:25):
undefined
Speaker: And, um, for a long time, whenever you've had chronic, (22:26):
undefined
Speaker: severe infections that just cannot be treated or cleared by (22:30):
undefined
Speaker: the antimicrobials that the clinicians have to hand. (22:34):
undefined
Speaker: There's been plenty of other situations in the past where (22:38):
undefined
Speaker: groups, scientists have gone into the local wastewater to extract (22:44):
undefined
Speaker: a cocktail of bacteriophages and screen them to see if any of (22:49):
undefined
Speaker: those would be suitable for for basically killing off this, this (22:54):
undefined
Speaker: bacteria that is causing such a problem for that patient. (22:58):
undefined
Speaker: And bacteriophages love to eat up bacteria. (23:03):
undefined
Speaker: And they're not only do they love eat up bacteria, but they (23:06):
undefined
Speaker: can be very selective about what particular bacteria they want to (23:09):
undefined
Speaker: go to town on. (23:12):
undefined
Speaker: And so there has been a lot of work isolating bacteriophages, (23:13):
undefined
Speaker: bioprospecting, bacteriophages out of wastewater and using them (23:18):
undefined
Speaker: to treat individuals that have severe cases of infection caused (23:22):
undefined
Speaker: by multidrug resistant bacteria. (23:27):
undefined
Speaker: And that and there has been good results from that. (23:29):
undefined
Speaker: And so that's something that's slowly gaining pace. (23:33):
undefined
Speaker: Like with any new technology, (23:36):
undefined
Speaker: there's a bit of effort involved (23:38):
undefined
Speaker: in it. (23:39):
undefined
Speaker: There's quite a cost sink involved in it. (23:39):
undefined
Speaker: It's not something just yet for everyone all the time, but with (23:41):
undefined
Speaker: enough effort put into that it very quickly could reach that. (23:47):
undefined
Speaker: So it gives us another load of (23:51):
undefined
Speaker: weapons in our arsenal to combat (23:53):
undefined
Speaker: antimicrobial resistance. (23:56):
undefined
Speaker: You're right in saying now, with the challenge and the increasing (23:57):
undefined
Speaker: challenge of AMR antimicrobial resistance, that maybe (24:00):
undefined
Speaker: bacteriophages is something that the world needs to be putting a (24:04):
undefined
Speaker: lot of effort into. (24:06):
undefined
Speaker: We maybe need to look at that sort of personalized approach (24:07):
undefined
Speaker: for treating infections. (24:11):
undefined
Speaker: And are there ethical considerations involved then in (24:13):
undefined
Speaker: bioprospecting that maybe researchers should be aware of? (24:16):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's it's really (24:20):
undefined
Speaker: important for all branches of (24:22):
undefined
Speaker: science to understand what (24:24):
undefined
Speaker: considerations, ethical (24:26):
undefined
Speaker: considerations that they need to (24:28):
undefined
Speaker: be aware of in the research that (24:30):
undefined
Speaker: they're doing. And in the the (24:32):
undefined
Speaker: story with just or the what (24:34):
undefined
Speaker: we've just been talking about (24:35):
undefined
Speaker: there. (24:37):
undefined
Speaker: We need to understand as a (24:37):
undefined
Speaker: community, if that's not (24:38):
undefined
Speaker: wastewater, for example, if (24:40):
undefined
Speaker: that's another type of natural (24:41):
undefined
Speaker: resource, you know, where does (24:42):
undefined
Speaker: that ownership lie in utilizing (24:44):
undefined
Speaker: that resource? (24:47):
undefined
Speaker: Um, if you're going to if you're, for example, trying to (24:48):
undefined
Speaker: look for something in pristine environments that hasn't been (24:50):
undefined
Speaker: impacted by by human activity to search them for new (24:53):
undefined
Speaker: antimicrobials or new compounds, then will, of course, you know, (24:58):
undefined
Speaker: you need to engage with anyone that you know. (25:01):
undefined
Speaker: If you're if we're talking like we're talking maybe the Canadian (25:05):
undefined
Speaker: tundra here or whatever, you know, just to throw some (25:08):
undefined
Speaker: examples out or somewhere in, you know, the Australian (25:10):
undefined
Speaker: wilderness, you know, there's going to be first peoples there. (25:14):
undefined
Speaker: And so any benefit you glean (25:17):
undefined
Speaker: from that, shouldn't just benefit (25:19):
undefined
Speaker: a select few people, it should (25:22):
undefined
Speaker: benefit everyone. (25:23):
undefined
Speaker: And I think that that's quite simply at its core, the ethical (25:25):
undefined
Speaker: considerations you have to give. (25:29):
undefined
Speaker: And I understand I'm saying that whenever we we live in a (25:32):
undefined
Speaker: capitalistic society, but you can't just take and benefit a (25:35):
undefined
Speaker: few, because they can afford it. (25:40):
undefined
Speaker: It must be for the benefit of all. (25:42):
undefined
Speaker: Because, getting back to what we (25:43):
undefined
Speaker: first talked about, everything (25:45):
undefined
Speaker: is connected. (25:48):
undefined
Speaker: You cannot just think about (25:49):
undefined
Speaker: yourself and just healing (25:51):
undefined
Speaker: yourself. (25:53):
undefined
Speaker: I think we really saw that, didn't we, with COVID and, you (25:54):
undefined
Speaker: know, previously in HIV, just because an infection starts in (25:56):
undefined
Speaker: one part of the world or one community, doesn't mean that (26:00):
undefined
Speaker: it's not going to spread. (26:04):
undefined
Speaker: And particularly then, you know, (26:05):
undefined
Speaker: we're not safe until we're all (26:07):
undefined
Speaker: safe. (26:09):
undefined
Speaker: I think that's an important (26:09):
undefined
Speaker: principle to take away from (26:10):
undefined
Speaker: that. (26:11):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah, exactly, exactly. (26:12):
undefined
Speaker: We've we've got, um, you know, we're a global society. (26:13):
undefined
Speaker: We move around, we want to go on holiday. (26:16):
undefined
Speaker: We want to go visit other countries. (26:18):
undefined
Speaker: We travel for work, everything like that there. (26:20):
undefined
Speaker: And pathogens do not respect international borders. (26:22):
undefined
Speaker: They're not stopping showing their passport like that there. (26:26):
undefined
Speaker: Yeah. (26:30):
undefined
Speaker: I think something you touched (26:31):
undefined
Speaker: upon earlier there about the (26:31):
undefined
Speaker: environmental changes. (26:33):
undefined
Speaker: So pathogens, you know, we could be carrying pathogens home in (26:34):
undefined
Speaker: our, our clothes from, you know, higher temperature areas that (26:37):
undefined
Speaker: traditionally may not have survived this far north. (26:41):
undefined
Speaker: You and I are both fairly north in terms of the globe. (26:44):
undefined
Speaker: And now with changing climate, (26:48):
undefined
Speaker: we're seeing pathogens that may (26:50):
undefined
Speaker: have once been comfortable at (26:53):
undefined
Speaker: more warmer temperatures, are (26:54):
undefined
Speaker: surviving and thriving further (26:56):
undefined
Speaker: north now. (26:58):
undefined
Speaker: And I think exactly that, that whole thing, we're not safe (26:58):
undefined
Speaker: until we're all safe. (27:01):
undefined
Speaker: You might carry an insect bag with you or or the changes in (27:02):
undefined
Speaker: those temperatures influence the fact that mosquitoes can move a (27:06):
undefined
Speaker: bit further north. (27:10):
undefined
Speaker: They are of growing concern because just recently this year, (27:11):
undefined
Speaker: the EU has recorded cases of yellow fever and West Nile virus (27:14):
undefined
Speaker: and that not spreading in countries such as France, (27:21):
undefined
Speaker: Portugal, Italy, Romania. (27:24):
undefined
Speaker: So it's important to understand we're not just, you know, having (27:25):
undefined
Speaker: a wee conversation. (27:31):
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Speaker: This stuff's already here. (27:32):
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Speaker: So it is. (27:33):
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Speaker: And it will only continue unless (27:34):
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Speaker: we as a community and as a (27:37):
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Speaker: community, as a scientific (27:40):
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Speaker: community, um, do our best to, (27:41):
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Speaker: to find ways of of halting that (27:44):
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Speaker: spread. (27:46):
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Speaker: Yeah. (27:47):
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Speaker: I mean, you say it. (27:47):
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Speaker: It is already in Portugal and France. (27:48):
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Speaker: I was I was giving blood a (27:49):
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Speaker: couple of weeks ago, and when (27:50):
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Speaker: they were going through my (27:52):
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Speaker: travel history, they were going (27:52):
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Speaker: through particular maps of where (27:53):
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Speaker: I had been in France recently (27:55):
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Speaker: because of the, the, the rise in (27:56):
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Speaker: tick borne pathogens in some of (27:59):
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Speaker: those areas. (28:00):
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Speaker: It's been really quite interesting. (28:01):
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Speaker: Do you know what, (28:03):
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Speaker: I think that's a really great place to end this episode. (28:03):
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Speaker: It's been fascinating to learn about the role of wastewater (28:06):
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Speaker: monitoring in both epidemiology and potentially pandemic (28:09):
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Speaker: preparedness, and the importance of working together across many (28:13):
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Speaker: stakeholders to tap into this rich resource of data. (28:16):
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Speaker: We also talked about the rise of zoonotic diseases and the (28:21):
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Speaker: importance in understanding our role as humans. (28:23):
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Speaker: When we start to encroach more into areas with other species (28:26):
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Speaker: that can result in bite back, as you say, Doctor Lee. (28:29):
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Speaker: In the next episode, Doctor Lee (28:33):
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Speaker: and I continue to discuss the (28:34):
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Speaker: more technical details of (28:37):
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Speaker: wastewater and air sampling for (28:38):
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Speaker: population health monitoring and (28:40):
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Speaker: learn about some great real (28:42):
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Speaker: world examples. (28:43):
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Speaker: Going Macro on Micro is a podcast series supported by (28:45):
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Speaker: Beckman Coulter exploring emerging themes in microbiology. (28:47):
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Speaker: Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to. (28:51):
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Speaker: Stay up to date with each new episode as it's released. (28:53):
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Speaker: You can also join our online (28:57):
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Speaker: community by searching for (28:58):
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Speaker: Beckman Coulter Microbiology on (29:00):
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Speaker: LinkedIn. (29:02):
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Speaker: There you'll find discussions on (29:03):
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Speaker: a variety of interesting (29:04):
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Speaker: microbiology topics. (29:06):
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Speaker: Until next time when we go macro and micro. (29:07):
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Speaker: Goodbye. (29:09):
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