November 11, 2024 • 19 mins
In this episode of "Going Macro on Micro," our experts, Dr. Elaine Cloutman-Green, and Dr. Simon Doherty, together with our host Dr. Julie Ann Lough continue their exploration of the One Health approach, focusing on the challenges of getting stakeholders on board and breaking down institutional and cultural barriers to foster collaboration across disciplines. This episode highlights the potential for One Health to disrupt and transform the traditional models of healthcare, with the patient and the environment at the center, rather than the medical professionals. The guests emphasize the importance of embracing this change and working together to achieve the goals of One Health for the benefit of all.
2024-13527
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome to Going Macro and Micro, the podcast where we explore emerging themes in microbiology, brought to you by Beckman Coulter.
I am your host, Dr. Julie Ann Lough, a science communicator passionate about sharing stories, exploring the future of health and science.
This is the third episode of our series exploring One Health, an integrated approach that recognises the health of people, animals and ecosystems are all interconnected.
(00:34):
When we think about the challenges facing our health from pandemics to antibiotic resistance, it's clear that no one exists in a vacuum.
We are all in this together.
In the last episode, we spoke about the role of infection control in One Health and how proportionality of measures and awareness of the mode of transmission will decide what the infection control measures are.
(00:57):
In this episode, we're going to talk about everyone working together for the benefit of all to achieve the goals of One Health.
And to continue our discussion, we still have two great experts in human and animal health.
We have Dr. Elaine Cloutman-Green.
She is a consultant clinical scientist specialising in infection prevention and control, as well as the leading healthcare scientist at Great Ormond Street Hospital in London.
(01:23):
And then on the animal side, we're still joined by Dr. Simon Doherty, an associate fellow at Queen's University Belfast and recently named the World Veterinarian Association's World Vet of the Year.
Both are passionate about the goals of One Health and we're so grateful that they're here to share their knowledge with us.
Let's go macro on micro.
(01:43):
Let's start off with getting people on board.
Elaine, in a busy hospital, people have a million and one things to think about.
So how do you get people to consider the synergies between One Health and infection control?
All of this comes down to communication and really embedding it in the people that we're training moving forward, because actually by the time the next generation of people are going to be practising, these barriers will become less and less real and the consequences of getting it wrong will become greater and greater.
(02:15):
And so it's having those very, very early conversations.
I think for me, it's also about doing things like joint research so that we get evidence base across actually the both categories, because even if you look at like, where would you publish this stuff?
Because there are journals for veterinary and there are journals for human.
(02:36):
Where can you publish something that sits for both so that we can make that dialogue better?
So even on a really baseline approach to science and health, it's actually really hard to have these conversations and then get the messaging out.
Same with funding.
If I want to do research, actually, most of the research funders are either going to fund veterinary or they're going to fund human.
(03:03):
So where do we even start getting the data about these kinds of things?
And we already know that MCR1, which was linked to colistin resistance, which is like our final drug for like the highly resistant gram-negatives.
A lot of the first papers about it being on a transmissible mechanism were based on a farm where you had dogs and pigs and farmers in China, and then they found it in birds that were then migrating.
(03:33):
And so we have to also think about what is your sampling strategy in something like that?
Because I know how to investigate an environment.
I know how to investigate a human.
Where is my sampling protocol that enables us to investigate all of those things together?
So we even then know how to collect the data in order to intervene.
(03:56):
And so I think it's building and developing holistic tools that will enable us to actually do that is going to be really, really key moving forward.
And maybe like, as you were saying, having a vet on speed dial that you can go to.
I'd love a phone a friend.
Yes, the phone a friend set up.
And what are your thoughts on that, Simon, as well?
The interconnectedness between One Health and infection control?
And that's it.
(04:16):
We tend to publish in our own suite of journals.
And there have been sort of One Health journals and things that have come available over this last while.
And I
think going forwards, I think that there will be a bit more of a look at some of that
transdisciplinary work and particularly where the social sciences are now coming in,
(04:36):
because quite often, whenever we're looking at behaviour change around prescribing
practises or behaviour change around antimicrobial compliance, you know, make sure
you finish the course and make sure you take your tablets four times a day and all the
rest of it.
And looking then at compliance across into the veterinary sector in terms of giving the right shots to animals or the right medication to animals at the right intervals and all that kind of thing.
(05:03):
And again, completing the course.
There's a lot of work going on in that sort of behavioural science space now, which I think is of interest across the board.
Within veterinary medicine, you know, because we deal with every other animal species bar one, then we have a tendency to try and learn things from one another.
(05:23):
So we'll try and pick up maybe infection control strategies from a small animal clinic hospital situation and try and implement those in a farm situation and vice versa.
Or if we're looking at a zoo or if we're looking at things like movements between zoos, there'll be a lot of quarantine and health certification and things like that before animals are moved between zoos.
(05:47):
So we will kind of learn across the board that way.
But quite often it is a matter of reading through papers in human journals as well and encouraging our human medic counterparts to do likewise and occasionally sort of look and read across and into the veterinary track.
How do you get people on board then with that idea of like, I need to look outside and also I need to not just think infection control and One Health isn't sort of an overreach.
(06:17):
Like, how do you get people on board, Simon?
You have to crack the nut, right?
And sometimes it takes a bold step.
So when I was president of British Veterinary Association, we set up UK One Health Coordination Group and we brought together Royal College of Nursing, British Veterinary Nursing Association, British Medical Association, Royal Society for Public Health, the BVA, British Veterinary Nursing Association.
(06:42):
And then on the environmental side, we brought in the likes of the Wildlife Trust and the National Trust to kind of close that, you know, one health sort of loop off.
And we started sharing stories of where we could potentially work together.
It was mind blowing, you know, but you need to kind of start somewhere.
I have a good friend, Helen Ballantyne, who is, she did her first degree in pharmacy and then decided that actually she wanted to be a veterinary nurse, then decided that actually she wanted to be a human nurse.
(07:14):
And is now a transplant coordinator at Adam Brooks, but she's one health in one person.
But Helen has a very unique kind of look.
You know, she thinks then very much kind of outside the box and brings aspects of her pharmacy training to veterinary nursing and some of that veterinary nursing to human nursing and particularly in the area that Elaine is talking about in terms of infectious disease control, learning about different approaches.
(07:40):
But there is a nut to be cracked and we don't all have access to a Helen Ballantyne who, you know, can cross over all those disciplines all the time.
So we do need to have that opportunity to kind of think a little bit out of the box.
And sometimes it's not within our professional associations, but it's maybe through some of the scientific associations like the likes of the Microbiology Society, which will cross disciplines, Immunology Societies, which will cross disciplines.
(08:08):
And that's sometimes where there's that sort of immediate transfer in the one medicine space.
So between human medicine, veterinary medicine.
And we think we need to think a bit more inventively then about how we can cross into the environmental space as well when we're sort of thinking about the wider environment.
But there's a huge interest now having tackled AMR in a lot of human medicine and veterinary medicine.
(08:32):
We're now looking at the environmental aspects much more.
So we're looking at AMR genetic factors, maybe in wastewater, and there was a lot of protocols established during COVID for wastewater sampling and particularly close to nursing home facilities and hospitals and things like that.
So testing wastewater and looking for COVID, that's now being translated and being used for AMR factors as well, you know, from a surveillance perspective.
(09:03):
So it's taking some of that knowledge, taking some of that technology and then transferring it and repurposing it is really interesting going forward.
I mean, obviously for us as vets, if a cow is treated with antibiotics, the milk can't go into the bulk tank for human consumption.
So quite often it ends up going into the slurry tank.
Where's the slurry go?
(09:24):
Out onto the field.
Right.
And let's remember most of our antibiotics originally came from soil bacteria.
Okay. A lot of the sort of synthetic and semi-synthetic antibiotics that we use now, maybe not.
But, you know, we're suddenly exposing all those soil bacteria out in the field to traces of antimicrobials that have come through in milk or slurry or urine going out to the field.
(09:48):
So we need to be really careful.
And I think we are now mindful of that cycle, you know, and going back into the water cycle and so on as well.
Elaine, do you find in your environment that people sometimes think one health and infection control are a bit of an overreach and how do you bring them on board if they do?
It's a really interesting question because I think that human medicine is already going through quite a lot of disruption in that we are moving away from that very hierarchical, medical orientated, you have a doctor in the room.
(10:26):
That doctor is a medical doctor and that is what the structure is and everybody else kind of surrounds them.
Obviously, I am a scientist by background.
So my undergrad was zoology, which is why I enjoy One Health so much.
Then I did biophysics.
Then I became a clinical microbiologist and did a PhD and took all of my medical consultant exams.
(10:49):
I am obviously an advocate of the fact that we all bring different things to that space.
I think the same is true with pharmacists.
The same is true with a lot of other allied health professionals.
And I think it's an uncomfortable time in human health because of the fact that that entire model is changing and it needs to change and it needs to change because actually the patient should be at the centre of everything we do, not the medical doctor at the centre of everything we do.
(11:18):
And actually, we're all there to serve that conversation and that dialogue.
And so I think there's a lot of will there.
But because of that, I am registered and therefore I have very specific awareness of where the bounds of my professional practise are, as are all of these other groups.
(11:39):
But as stuff changes, I think it does make everyone aware of where those professional boundaries lie.
And I think there's always going to be a slight little bit of backlash about tradition versus the future and what actually serves where we need to be going versus what has served things for the last hundred years in health.
(12:02):
And things can't stay the same.
And I think that's very much the same with One Health, right?
I think a lot of the challenges are very similar and interprofessional is where it's at.
I think I am much better in my role because I understand the lab.
I spend time on the wards.
(12:23):
I have a background in terms of science that is nothing to do with humans, really.
You know, I understand stochastic chemistry because I did biophysics.
You know, there's all kinds of things within that actually help my practise.
And I think we have to move away from, you know, the old days where you used to get a "oh, but you haven't focused enough on this particular pathway
(12:47):
how can you be a scientist" and actually embrace the fact that it's a disciplinary and generalism actually enables us to innovate and make much better change.
So, yes, professional boundaries need to be recognised.
Yes, we need to practise safely.
That doesn't stop us collaborating and coming together to get something that is better than any of us could deliver on our own.
(13:11):
And how do you think that we can bridge that knowledge gap between infection control experts and one health practitioners?
What do you think that knowledge gap is?
And I suppose, how can they work together more effectively?
So I think we have to work more with social scientists.
I think that's a completely different skill set.
So I published a review on public engagement and AMR last year.
(13:32):
And it's fascinating.
None of the people that were publishing as scientists really understood any of the behavioural models that are there.
And unless we change behaviour, the rest of it is just box ticking.
And so a lot of one health is about changing behaviour.
And you have to build that in from the start.
And I'm trying to learn.
(13:54):
I'm never going to be a behavioural scientist.
And so actually, again, it's about kind of building those relationships.
We have to stop being so snooty, frankly, because I think all of us that work in science are like, well, I'm a scientist.
I have quantitative data.
Quantitative data is amazing.
And yes, it is.
(14:14):
And obviously, I love it.
But actually, if we want change in this space, then we have to accept that qualitative data is also useful and changing behaviour and human behaviour models are also key.
And let's stop being so snooty about how we're designing and looking at the world and open that door to have those better conversations, because I think we have to start remembering it's not about us.
(14:40):
It's about everybody and every animal and the environment.
And I guess, you know, you've talked there about behavioural change.
It really brings us on, I suppose, to the next point.
And I'm going to go to you with this one, Simon.
Look, we know some institutions trying to change practises is like trying to get an oil tanker to do a U-turn, especially if, you know, they've got a procedure in place.
(15:02):
Oh, well, this is how we've done it.
This is how we've always done it.
So I suppose in your experience, what are some of those institutional and cultural barriers that maybe hinder effective collaboration and information sharing?
And sort of what are those barriers that you need to overcome for people to make meaningful change?
Yeah, I mean, quite often it's back to what Elaine was saying, you know, it's the silos, it's how we identify ourselves.
(15:25):
Do we identify ourselves as a vet or as a scientist or a medic or even within veterinary medicine?
Oh, well, I'm a small animal vet or I'm an equine vet or I'm a farm animal vet.
So therefore, you know, or I'm a fish vet, you know, therefore I can't possibly comment on such and such or I can comment and, you know, perhaps sometimes when I shouldn't.
(15:45):
But it's reaching beyond those labels and actually saying, OK, that may be, well, actually, I have value in another area.
So I mean, I give good examples of this in my own sort of working life.
When I was in farm animal practise, clearly I was working with farm animals and farmers.
A lot of vet school applicants that I talk to, and I'll say to them, well, you know, why did you not want to study medicine?
(16:10):
I don't know, I prefer working with animals.
Well, actually, you're not working with animals, you're working with the owners of animals.
OK, so actually you're working with people.
Newsflash, you know, and it's that realisation that and again, when I first started at Queen's, it's kind of like, OK, you're a vet, you know, you teach the agricultural technology students and it's about animal health and it's about farming and it's about dairy.
(16:36):
You know, I'm doing a load of teaching now in food science.
To be honest, I never thought I was going to be teaching in food science, but actually been able to kind of go and do a food science class along with a bunch of food scientists, but sort of say I'm a vet and here's a bit about one health and here's how I actually enter interdisciplinary working.
And it's important for you as a food science student to understand where the ingredients come from.
(17:00):
OK, so here's how beef is produced, here's how lamb is produced, here's how dairy is produced.
And they're like, wow, you know, it's just like it was suddenly realisation that milk doesn't just come in a two litre carton from the supermarket.
I say that's like facetiously, but, you know, it's just taking people out of their normal comfort zone and getting to do something.
(17:23):
Likewise, we've taken some of my food science colleagues into the agricultural technology class and, you know, a bunch of farmer sons and daughters and being able to kind of talk to them about where the food goes once it leaves the farm gate.
One health does something similar.
It's about opening your eyes and being able to kind of work with others and see things from another viewpoint.
(17:46):
And it can be very, very enlightening.
It can be really enjoyable and actually it tends to be an awful lot more productive.
What a great place to end this episode, you know, working together and sharing ideas can be a lot more productive.
What I really think is interesting is the idea that we should be bringing in social scientists to the table as well to provide input on how to get the behavioural changes that One Health will require.
(18:14):
It will require people to develop new habits and ways of thinking.
In the next episode, we're going to talk about how to engage stakeholders in the face of competing priorities, be they environmental or financial.
Going Macro on Micro is a podcast series supported by Beckman Coulter exploring emerging themes in microbiology.
Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to stay up to date with each new episode as it's released.
(18:40):
You can also join our online professional community by searching Beckman Coulter Microbiology on LinkedIn.
There, you'll find discussions on a variety of interesting microbiology topics.
Until next time, when we go Macro on Micro, goodbye.
Hello and welcome to Going Macro and Micro, the podcast where we explore emerging themes in microbiology, brought to you by Beckman Coulter.
I am your host, Dr. Julie Ann Lough, a science communicator passionate about sharing stories, exploring the future of health and science.
This is the third episode of our series exploring One Health, an integrated approach that recognises the health of people, animals and ecosystems are all interconnected.
(00:34):
When we think about the challenges facing our health from pandemics to antibiotic resistance, it's clear that no one exists in a vacuum.
We are all in this together.
In the last episode, we spoke about the role of infection control in One Health and how proportionality of measures and awareness of the mode of transmission will decide what the infection control measures are.
(00:57):
In this episode, we're going to talk about everyone working together for the benefit of all to achieve the goals of One Health.
And to continue our discussion, we still have two great experts in human and animal health.
We have Dr. Elaine Cloutman-Green.
She is a consultant clinical scientist specialising in infection prevention and control, as well as the leading healthcare scientist at Great Ormond Street Hospital in London.
(01:23):
And then on the animal side, we're still joined by Dr. Simon Doherty, an associate fellow at Queen's University Belfast and recently named the World Veterinarian Association's World Vet of the Year.
Both are passionate about the goals of One Health and we're so grateful that they're here to share their knowledge with us.
Let's go macro on micro.
(01:43):
Let's start off with getting people on board.
Elaine, in a busy hospital, people have a million and one things to think about.
So how do you get people to consider the synergies between One Health and infection control?
All of this comes down to communication and really embedding it in the people that we're training moving forward, because actually by the time the next generation of people are going to be practising, these barriers will become less and less real and the consequences of getting it wrong will become greater and greater.
(02:15):
And so it's having those very, very early conversations.
I think for me, it's also about doing things like joint research so that we get evidence base across actually the both categories, because even if you look at like, where would you publish this stuff?
Because there are journals for veterinary and there are journals for human.
(02:36):
Where can you publish something that sits for both so that we can make that dialogue better?
So even on a really baseline approach to science and health, it's actually really hard to have these conversations and then get the messaging out.
Same with funding.
If I want to do research, actually, most of the research funders are either going to fund veterinary or they're going to fund human.
(03:03):
So where do we even start getting the data about these kinds of things?
And we already know that MCR1, which was linked to colistin resistance, which is like our final drug for like the highly resistant gram-negatives.
A lot of the first papers about it being on a transmissible mechanism were based on a farm where you had dogs and pigs and farmers in China, and then they found it in birds that were then migrating.
(03:33):
And so we have to also think about what is your sampling strategy in something like that?
Because I know how to investigate an environment.
I know how to investigate a human.
Where is my sampling protocol that enables us to investigate all of those things together?
So we even then know how to collect the data in order to intervene.
(03:56):
And so I think it's building and developing holistic tools that will enable us to actually do that is going to be really, really key moving forward.
And maybe like, as you were saying, having a vet on speed dial that you can go to.
I'd love a phone a friend.
Yes, the phone a friend set up.
And what are your thoughts on that, Simon, as well?
The interconnectedness between One Health and infection control?
And that's it.
(04:16):
We tend to publish in our own suite of journals.
And there have been sort of One Health journals and things that have come available over this last while.
And I
think going forwards, I think that there will be a bit more of a look at some of that
transdisciplinary work and particularly where the social sciences are now coming in,
(04:36):
because quite often, whenever we're looking at behaviour change around prescribing
practises or behaviour change around antimicrobial compliance, you know, make sure
you finish the course and make sure you take your tablets four times a day and all the
rest of it.
And looking then at compliance across into the veterinary sector in terms of giving the right shots to animals or the right medication to animals at the right intervals and all that kind of thing.
(05:03):
And again, completing the course.
There's a lot of work going on in that sort of behavioural science space now, which I think is of interest across the board.
Within veterinary medicine, you know, because we deal with every other animal species bar one, then we have a tendency to try and learn things from one another.
(05:23):
So we'll try and pick up maybe infection control strategies from a small animal clinic hospital situation and try and implement those in a farm situation and vice versa.
Or if we're looking at a zoo or if we're looking at things like movements between zoos, there'll be a lot of quarantine and health certification and things like that before animals are moved between zoos.
(05:47):
So we will kind of learn across the board that way.
But quite often it is a matter of reading through papers in human journals as well and encouraging our human medic counterparts to do likewise and occasionally sort of look and read across and into the veterinary track.
How do you get people on board then with that idea of like, I need to look outside and also I need to not just think infection control and One Health isn't sort of an overreach.
(06:17):
Like, how do you get people on board, Simon?
You have to crack the nut, right?
And sometimes it takes a bold step.
So when I was president of British Veterinary Association, we set up UK One Health Coordination Group and we brought together Royal College of Nursing, British Veterinary Nursing Association, British Medical Association, Royal Society for Public Health, the BVA, British Veterinary Nursing Association.
(06:42):
And then on the environmental side, we brought in the likes of the Wildlife Trust and the National Trust to kind of close that, you know, one health sort of loop off.
And we started sharing stories of where we could potentially work together.
It was mind blowing, you know, but you need to kind of start somewhere.
I have a good friend, Helen Ballantyne, who is, she did her first degree in pharmacy and then decided that actually she wanted to be a veterinary nurse, then decided that actually she wanted to be a human nurse.
(07:14):
And is now a transplant coordinator at Adam Brooks, but she's one health in one person.
But Helen has a very unique kind of look.
You know, she thinks then very much kind of outside the box and brings aspects of her pharmacy training to veterinary nursing and some of that veterinary nursing to human nursing and particularly in the area that Elaine is talking about in terms of infectious disease control, learning about different approaches.
(07:40):
But there is a nut to be cracked and we don't all have access to a Helen Ballantyne who, you know, can cross over all those disciplines all the time.
So we do need to have that opportunity to kind of think a little bit out of the box.
And sometimes it's not within our professional associations, but it's maybe through some of the scientific associations like the likes of the Microbiology Society, which will cross disciplines, Immunology Societies, which will cross disciplines.
(08:08):
And that's sometimes where there's that sort of immediate transfer in the one medicine space.
So between human medicine, veterinary medicine.
And we think we need to think a bit more inventively then about how we can cross into the environmental space as well when we're sort of thinking about the wider environment.
But there's a huge interest now having tackled AMR in a lot of human medicine and veterinary medicine.
(08:32):
We're now looking at the environmental aspects much more.
So we're looking at AMR genetic factors, maybe in wastewater, and there was a lot of protocols established during COVID for wastewater sampling and particularly close to nursing home facilities and hospitals and things like that.
So testing wastewater and looking for COVID, that's now being translated and being used for AMR factors as well, you know, from a surveillance perspective.
(09:03):
So it's taking some of that knowledge, taking some of that technology and then transferring it and repurposing it is really interesting going forward.
I mean, obviously for us as vets, if a cow is treated with antibiotics, the milk can't go into the bulk tank for human consumption.
So quite often it ends up going into the slurry tank.
Where's the slurry go?
(09:24):
Out onto the field.
Right.
And let's remember most of our antibiotics originally came from soil bacteria.
Okay. A lot of the sort of synthetic and semi-synthetic antibiotics that we use now, maybe not.
But, you know, we're suddenly exposing all those soil bacteria out in the field to traces of antimicrobials that have come through in milk or slurry or urine going out to the field.
(09:48):
So we need to be really careful.
And I think we are now mindful of that cycle, you know, and going back into the water cycle and so on as well.
Elaine, do you find in your environment that people sometimes think one health and infection control are a bit of an overreach and how do you bring them on board if they do?
It's a really interesting question because I think that human medicine is already going through quite a lot of disruption in that we are moving away from that very hierarchical, medical orientated, you have a doctor in the room.
(10:26):
That doctor is a medical doctor and that is what the structure is and everybody else kind of surrounds them.
Obviously, I am a scientist by background.
So my undergrad was zoology, which is why I enjoy One Health so much.
Then I did biophysics.
Then I became a clinical microbiologist and did a PhD and took all of my medical consultant exams.
(10:49):
I am obviously an advocate of the fact that we all bring different things to that space.
I think the same is true with pharmacists.
The same is true with a lot of other allied health professionals.
And I think it's an uncomfortable time in human health because of the fact that that entire model is changing and it needs to change and it needs to change because actually the patient should be at the centre of everything we do, not the medical doctor at the centre of everything we do.
(11:18):
And actually, we're all there to serve that conversation and that dialogue.
And so I think there's a lot of will there.
But because of that, I am registered and therefore I have very specific awareness of where the bounds of my professional practise are, as are all of these other groups.
(11:39):
But as stuff changes, I think it does make everyone aware of where those professional boundaries lie.
And I think there's always going to be a slight little bit of backlash about tradition versus the future and what actually serves where we need to be going versus what has served things for the last hundred years in health.
(12:02):
And things can't stay the same.
And I think that's very much the same with One Health, right?
I think a lot of the challenges are very similar and interprofessional is where it's at.
I think I am much better in my role because I understand the lab.
I spend time on the wards.
(12:23):
I have a background in terms of science that is nothing to do with humans, really.
You know, I understand stochastic chemistry because I did biophysics.
You know, there's all kinds of things within that actually help my practise.
And I think we have to move away from, you know, the old days where you used to get a "oh, but you haven't focused enough on this particular pathway
(12:47):
how can you be a scientist" and actually embrace the fact that it's a disciplinary and generalism actually enables us to innovate and make much better change.
So, yes, professional boundaries need to be recognised.
Yes, we need to practise safely.
That doesn't stop us collaborating and coming together to get something that is better than any of us could deliver on our own.
(13:11):
And how do you think that we can bridge that knowledge gap between infection control experts and one health practitioners?
What do you think that knowledge gap is?
And I suppose, how can they work together more effectively?
So I think we have to work more with social scientists.
I think that's a completely different skill set.
So I published a review on public engagement and AMR last year.
(13:32):
And it's fascinating.
None of the people that were publishing as scientists really understood any of the behavioural models that are there.
And unless we change behaviour, the rest of it is just box ticking.
And so a lot of one health is about changing behaviour.
And you have to build that in from the start.
And I'm trying to learn.
(13:54):
I'm never going to be a behavioural scientist.
And so actually, again, it's about kind of building those relationships.
We have to stop being so snooty, frankly, because I think all of us that work in science are like, well, I'm a scientist.
I have quantitative data.
Quantitative data is amazing.
And yes, it is.
(14:14):
And obviously, I love it.
But actually, if we want change in this space, then we have to accept that qualitative data is also useful and changing behaviour and human behaviour models are also key.
And let's stop being so snooty about how we're designing and looking at the world and open that door to have those better conversations, because I think we have to start remembering it's not about us.
(14:40):
It's about everybody and every animal and the environment.
And I guess, you know, you've talked there about behavioural change.
It really brings us on, I suppose, to the next point.
And I'm going to go to you with this one, Simon.
Look, we know some institutions trying to change practises is like trying to get an oil tanker to do a U-turn, especially if, you know, they've got a procedure in place.
(15:02):
Oh, well, this is how we've done it.
This is how we've always done it.
So I suppose in your experience, what are some of those institutional and cultural barriers that maybe hinder effective collaboration and information sharing?
And sort of what are those barriers that you need to overcome for people to make meaningful change?
Yeah, I mean, quite often it's back to what Elaine was saying, you know, it's the silos, it's how we identify ourselves.
(15:25):
Do we identify ourselves as a vet or as a scientist or a medic or even within veterinary medicine?
Oh, well, I'm a small animal vet or I'm an equine vet or I'm a farm animal vet.
So therefore, you know, or I'm a fish vet, you know, therefore I can't possibly comment on such and such or I can comment and, you know, perhaps sometimes when I shouldn't.
(15:45):
But it's reaching beyond those labels and actually saying, OK, that may be, well, actually, I have value in another area.
So I mean, I give good examples of this in my own sort of working life.
When I was in farm animal practise, clearly I was working with farm animals and farmers.
A lot of vet school applicants that I talk to, and I'll say to them, well, you know, why did you not want to study medicine?
(16:10):
I don't know, I prefer working with animals.
Well, actually, you're not working with animals, you're working with the owners of animals.
OK, so actually you're working with people.
Newsflash, you know, and it's that realisation that and again, when I first started at Queen's, it's kind of like, OK, you're a vet, you know, you teach the agricultural technology students and it's about animal health and it's about farming and it's about dairy.
(16:36):
You know, I'm doing a load of teaching now in food science.
To be honest, I never thought I was going to be teaching in food science, but actually been able to kind of go and do a food science class along with a bunch of food scientists, but sort of say I'm a vet and here's a bit about one health and here's how I actually enter interdisciplinary working.
And it's important for you as a food science student to understand where the ingredients come from.
(17:00):
OK, so here's how beef is produced, here's how lamb is produced, here's how dairy is produced.
And they're like, wow, you know, it's just like it was suddenly realisation that milk doesn't just come in a two litre carton from the supermarket.
I say that's like facetiously, but, you know, it's just taking people out of their normal comfort zone and getting to do something.
(17:23):
Likewise, we've taken some of my food science colleagues into the agricultural technology class and, you know, a bunch of farmer sons and daughters and being able to kind of talk to them about where the food goes once it leaves the farm gate.
One health does something similar.
It's about opening your eyes and being able to kind of work with others and see things from another viewpoint.
(17:46):
And it can be very, very enlightening.
It can be really enjoyable and actually it tends to be an awful lot more productive.
What a great place to end this episode, you know, working together and sharing ideas can be a lot more productive.
What I really think is interesting is the idea that we should be bringing in social scientists to the table as well to provide input on how to get the behavioural changes that One Health will require.
(18:14):
It will require people to develop new habits and ways of thinking.
In the next episode, we're going to talk about how to engage stakeholders in the face of competing priorities, be they environmental or financial.
Going Macro on Micro is a podcast series supported by Beckman Coulter exploring emerging themes in microbiology.
Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to stay up to date with each new episode as it's released.
(18:40):
You can also join our online professional community by searching Beckman Coulter Microbiology on LinkedIn.
There, you'll find discussions on a variety of interesting microbiology topics.
Until next time, when we go Macro on Micro, goodbye.
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