October 30, 2025 • 61 mins
Project Rhino is an association of like-minded organizations, facilitating rhino conservation interventions aimed at eliminating rhino poaching and securing the white and black rhino populations of KwaZulu-Natal.
The association is also aware that the poaching of rhinos is symptomatic of the overall, bigger environmental crises facing South Africa and its neighbours. Join Professor Goway, Don Forster and the Director of Project Rhino, Grant Fowles and get a glimpse into the world of conservation in Africa and the great work this organization is doing.
“What motivates us daily is the dream of both White and Black rhino species thriving in KwaZulu-Natal and far beyond – forever free, forever secure from poaching, well managed and protected. We honour their uniqueness as one of the primary icons of Africa’s great wilderness areas.”
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(00:02):
Project Rhino is an association of like-minded organizations facilitating rhinoconservation interventions aimed at eliminating rhino poaching and securing the white and
black rhino populations of Crozoul Natal.
you
The association is also aware that the poaching of rhino is symptomatic of the overallbigger environmental crisis facing South Africa and its neighbors.
(00:28):
What motivates us daily is the dream of both white and black rhino species thriving inKwaZulu-Natal and far beyond.
Forever free, forever secure from poaching, well managed and protected.
We honor their uniqueness as one of the primary icons of Africa's great wilderness areas.
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goay and welcome to the GoayPro Travel TalePodcast.
(01:01):
and gravel off with.
uh
to the Go A Pro Travel Tales podcast.
um For those who've been with us from day one, the very first podcast I sat down to do waswith this gentleman that we're gonna speak to today, Grant Foles, and he is the director
of Project Rhino.
We'll get into what all that means in a moment.
(01:22):
But what had happened is Grant was one of our first interviewees, yes, interviewees, backin the day.
But unfortunately, the interview we did at the time, the file was corrupted.
We never got to use it.
So Grant, when was that Grant?
was, hello?
Nearly to 18 months, I think.
18 months, Okay, so we're doing a redo, albeit a delayed review on it or retake for wantof a better term.
(01:49):
So again, officially welcome Grant to the podcast.
As I mentioned, Grant is director of Project Rhino.
So without stating the obvious, what does Project Rhino do or stand for?
Yeah Don, thank you for having me at GoAway.
A uh very old and loyal family in the travel business in downtown Toronto.
(02:11):
um Project Rhino is a non-profit organization operating out of South Africa um andobviously working in the game reserves, mainly in KwaZulu-Natal, which for those who do
not know, was the origins of most of the white rhino in the world.
(02:31):
So Project Rhino facilitates and assists all the game reserves in the province ofKwaZulu-Natal and beyond.
Now is KwaZulu-Natal South Africa or is that one of the kingdoms within the geographicalarea of South Africa?
um It's one of the kingdoms in the geographical area.
So does it, this is off the Rhino aspect here, does that operate as an independent countrywithin South Africa?
(02:57):
I've always been curious to how the, because there are two kingdoms within South Africa.
Wasn't it town, what's the other one?
there's a kingdom of Lesotho, there's a kingdom of Swaziland, but those are independentcountries.
KwaZulu-Natal is one of the nine provinces in southern Africa.
Right, so it is South Africa but also recognized as a, well not independent kingdom, butas a kingdom province.
(03:20):
okay.
Okay, so you mentioned white rhino.
Now most people will look at a photo of a rhino and not know whether it's white, black, orotherwise.
um And you mentioned that Quasimodo was the area that the white rhino was more abundant,for want of a better term?
It was saved from extinction way back in the 60s because there were very little whiterunners left in the world as they were decimated right throughout Africa post-colonialism.
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So what is the difference between a white and a black rider?
The difference, Don, is pretty simple.
The white rhino is a grazer and it stays out in the plains, and the black rhino is abrowser and it stays in thicker bush.
um An easier way to identify that thing, we were with legend Moira Smith, and they saywhen Mrs.
(04:08):
Smith shops with her trolley and she's carrying a baby, she puts the baby in the frontpouch.
And when Mrs.
Kuzwaya, an African lady, then shops at the shopping center.
she belettas her child at the back.
Now, a black rhino always has the child at the back, and a white rhino always runs withits baby in the front.
(04:34):
Really?
And nature will never change that.
It's just the way that God made them.
Well, that's that I didn't know.
Interesting.
OK, so white rhino were in major trouble in the 60s in southern Africa.
So back to what we just discussed, the difference.
It's where they eat for one of the better term or grays um were or are white rhino fromthe tip of South Africa up to what we would term Eastern Africa.
(04:59):
Is it the same for the black?
Are they in their own specific areas?
Yes, so black rhinos occurred in abundance all throughout Africa, but they happened to bepoached much more than at that point in time.
So the Western black rhino, which is West Africa, were completely wiped out.
The Eastern black, they're more Kenyan, Kenyan as far as down to sort of Tanzania.
(05:24):
They've now revived slowly.
And the...
critically endangered black rhino is Appendix 1, which is critical, and Appendix 2 iswhite rhino, which are more abundant.
So there are more numbers in white rhino at the moment, largely due to South Africa owning83 % of the world's white rhino population.
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Right, so there are white rhino in East Africa though.
They are.
They are white rhino now.
They were the northern white rhinos in parts of southern Sudan and Congo.
And now they bring, well, obviously the revival of the white rhino is happening in Kenyaas well.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, but both types of rhino are still on the endangered list or?
(06:14):
Critically endangered is the black and endangered which is an appendix to animal is thewhite rhino because they have managed to breed them at a larger alarming rate.
So on the scale of flourishing to endangered, critically is the last step before they go.
Yeah, critically there's very few left.
Other critically endangered animals or mammals in the world are pangolins and you knowpanda bears and polar bears and so on, those sort of things.
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So does Project Rhino by its name, I would assume that it only looks, well not only, itfocuses only on rhino.
Do you do any other work outside of the rhino species?
We do a lot of work on every species, anything to do with wildlife crime.
It just so happens to be that the rhinos are the most sought after, or most critically, umnot endangered, but critically poached at the moment.
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Not more than pangolins, but not more than any other mammal, but they're the ones that arethe flagship species that we need to protect more than others.
And I would also assume that by the nature of the animal itself, a rhino, it's much uheasier identifiable to the average person.
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When you are looking to call attention to endangered species, if you have a moreprominent, well-known recognized animal that works in your favor, you basically in very
crude terms, you can pull money in based on the fact that people know rhinos, but at thesame time still be looking after the pangolins and other.
Yeah, well rhinos are, you know, they're part of our living dinosaurs.
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mean, they've been on this earth for over 50 to 60 million years.
So I think people, you know, like elephants and maybe lions, they aspire to this massivemammal that looks almost prehistoric, you know.
And yeah, we need them on this planet.
Yeah, for sure.
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um So what, in what ways does Project Rhino protect rhinos?
So we have various ways of protecting and remember we are an umbrella body for many, manyreserves.
So we would contribute by flying our aircraft.
We have several aircraft and pilots that fly over the game reserves every day.
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Patrolling, looking for carcasses, looking for dogs, looking for breakages in the fence.
So an airwheel we call it the Zuland anti-poaching wing is one of the interventions.
The other ones is we facilitate dog handlers, canons.
We also have facilitation for uh equine safaris.
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uh We patrol with horses.
The other wing that we have is obviously our community engagement is very important.
Sustainability and livelihoods of people surrounding the parks.
And then a very obvious one is that we've got to look at habitat.
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So range expansion, the new world for range expansion is more habitat, is basicallyrewilding.
So a certain portion of our energy has to go into more space for these animals, be itthrough corridors or be it through uh more land and better interventions.
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Yeah, you sort of answered one of my next questions of you said you're out patrolling inthe many forms from the air, on the ground, foot, on horseback.
So what are you patrolling for?
You've answered one question, obviously, one of the reasons they're struggling, orwildlife in general, in most countries, particularly in Africa, are struggling, is the
encroachment of their habitat, human encroachments.
(10:02):
You've answered that question.
I would assume therefore the most damaging intrusion to their survival is poaching for thehorn.
Yeah, absolutely.
So what is the reason that they go after the horn?
Well that is a conundrum that nobody can really understand, You know there was a spike intooth, well there was a beginning of the century, about 2005, there was this myth that
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rhino horn would cure cancer.
It was previously, it was always at gifting in the days of Yemen and when rhinos wereabundant.
mean, horns were taken from rhinos, of dead rhinos, and left in the lodges and they actedas door stoppers, so the door didn't bang shut, you know?
And now they have to be guarded and put into bank vaults, you know, that's the crazything.
(10:56):
So it's not an ivory situation for the elephants where it's used for decorative carving.
It's more supposed.
medicinal drug practice.
The myth is that cancer occur at the moment.
There has been sort of aphrodisiac links to it, but that is not even an issue anymore.
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Have they done any testing on rhino horn to see if it does have any treatment and does ithave any?
It has absolutely no medicinal effects whatsoever.
It's like a toenail, it's like a fingernail, isn't it?
Yeah.
a composition point of view.
hair, fingernails, toenails, whatever you like to call it, it's keratin.
m Effectively, it's worthless.
(11:41):
And it's crazy how uh perception has just overruled this beautiful, iconic animal ormammal.
Yeah, and I guess a natural, and I remember asking this question in original podcastinterview was why don't poachers then just come in, subdue the animal and take the horn
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and not kill the animal full on?
it, like a fingernail grows back as well.
Yeah, it does.
And I remember your answer, but could you please answer that question again as to whypoachers just don't subdue the animal?
Well, because the poachers would have to use a drug, which they don't have.
uh They haven't got the means of getting the drugs for a start, and some of them have.
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So it has happened.
And um you know, the easiest for them is to use an old weapon of high caliber, shoot theanimal, chop the horn off and let it die because it can't retaliate.
If it was half sedated, it can also retaliate.
Any, sorry.
uh
Yeah, so retaliation and you know, the tragedy at dawn is that sometimes they shoot a cowwith a small calf and the calf is irritating the poachers while they're chopping the horn
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of the mother off.
Yeah, they kill the calf.
And they kill the calf or chop the calf up into pieces where it's um maimed and we have torescue these calves and put them into orphanage with all these cut marks all over them
from axes.
really?
Yeah, so it's a cruel world out there but you know...
Money is the driving force behind this thing and unfortunately, um you know, uh iconicanimal or mammal like the rhinoceros is now just a scapegoat for money laundering.
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really.
Yeah.
In what way?
How does that work from a money laundering point of
you know all the legal things in the world right now are weapons drugs cocaine Maybe thecontraband like sex or cigarettes or anything like that.
So those items and wildlife trafficking whether it be a pet trade or medicinal PCM, whichwe call traditional Chinese medicine Are all They're the it's the fourth biggest illegal
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illicit trade in the world.
So
We're never going to stop poaching.
It's here for us to just make it very difficult.
you know, it's just a fact of life and people think that it can be done, technology ishelping and all these things that we're throwing at poaching intervention, but it's never
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going to go away while the value is there.
m
And again, I'm not looking to blame a region of the world or a race, but my understandingis that the sought after market is the Asian market, as in they see the value, be it real
or perceived, the rhino horn.
So it's primarily from the Asian market.
(14:38):
That's the demand market.
But having said that, when we were in Vietnam, they kept on saying, but Africans arekilling their own rhino.
We're just buying it.
We kept on blaming them.
we, as Africans, or the people, the local people, are actually pulling the trigger.
The buyers are the ones in the East.
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And all the steps or the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, two or three of those
bottom rungs are in Africa and the two remaining ones are in Southeast Asia and maybe oneis in a port somewhere between doing the deal.
Well, it might be local Africans pulling the trigger, but they're pulling the trigger dueto the demand that's placed on it by a foreign market.
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And that leads into conversations about local poverty situations.
going back to my question of why they don't subdue it, obviously, shooting an animal andchopping the horn is quick and easy and they're out of there.
therefore, from their eyes, it's easy money if they have the connections to lead on fromthere.
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So again, on that note, most of the people who are probably shooting the animals, be itelephant or anything else for that matter, are local Africans of some description, more
than likely um from a poverty point of view, that's getting easy money for them.
So how do you counter, and there have been lots of successes with particularly themountain gorillas in educating the local community that the protection of the animal in
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the long term is to the local communities.
benefit and you did touch on community interaction earlier on.
Yeah.
So, yeah, community conservation and the wellbeing of people surrounding parks isparamount.
If we don't give these people ownership of the rhinos, or if we don't give themopportunities, be it for food or for employment, empty stomachs have no ears, you know?
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They go and get the greed of what they perceive through the fence.
And again,
A fence is a big barrier and again South Africa have got fences, the rest of Africa do nothave fences but they have an imaginary line where you've got communities on one side of
the river perhaps and the other side like in Tanzania there'd be a park and there'd be nobarrier the lines and the cattle can walk through but that we call a human fence.
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Effectively that's a no-go area for both species and there is human-wildlife conflict inbetween those two but...
Until people are buying in, until they can see a value of an elephant or rhino or gorilla,and that comes through tourism, uh and their livelihoods are protected by whoever, the
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tour operator, the hotel owner, um the whole chain is vital and impact is very importantin community conservation.
The community sees the benefit in protecting wildlife in general, so the rhino, because umtourism increases, which brings money into the community, which then turn hopefully if
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it's managed and directed, builds a school, builds hospitals, brings a higher quality ofliving to the locals and in turn they now see and understand why keeping animals alive is
beneficial to them.
ah I would assume that you have seen success with that model for Project Rhino over theyears.
Yes, absolutely.
um Great amounts of success with leaders in the conservation space.
(18:21):
But I have to be very cautious because we're seeing signs of over-tourism in Africa now.
It's very important that the governing body or the conservation authority, wherevercountry they're working in, whether it be Southern Africa, Tanzania, Kenya, or whatever
that...
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have the right rules in place to prevent over tourism.
And that can be anything from a model of so many beds per hectare, so many jeeps or LandRovers.
um And if you have too many beds for the amount of ecosystem that you have, you have thisposition where, you know, even the locals now are complaining because they've just been
(19:04):
pushing revenue, revenue, revenue to a state where somebody gets disgruntled over, um youknow, all sorts of
disadvantages instead of advantages and the swing is very quick, you know.
Right.
um Have you seen through the employment opportunities that conservation has created, ortourism for that matter, but conservation in particular has created, where you're not only
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seeing the local community understand the financial benefits of it, but also becomingpassionate from a purely um personal point of view that, yes, this will have my family
secure if I look after it, but I also, I want to protect it.
because of the animal itself, like because of the environment itself.
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Have you seen a broadening of education and awareness by local communities that protectingthe environment in general is a positive thing, the right thing to do?
Yeah, Don, I mean, there hundreds of examples of people that are champions in Africa.
But I do say with the scale of the problem in the world, hundreds of examples of successis probably not enough.
(20:14):
Yeah.
You know, there are still people that are being left behind.
And, you know, that's because South Africa is still over 40 percent unemployed.
Congo civil war, you know, you've got problems in.
Mogadishu, you've got problems in Rwanda with M23 rebels, for example, even though it'squite a secure country.
(20:38):
And then you see other little places like Namibia really getting behind their tourism ispushing now.
They've got a great tourism model and also looking after runners with a communityperspective.
So I think we're getting there, but we're not transforming fast enough.
(20:59):
uh And that all starts with a two-year-old, with early childhood development.
uh If we can start there and push our education ah even right through to the chiefs andthe tribal authorities, we can transform Africa a lot quicker than what is happening at
the moment.
(21:19):
A better way of asking my question then is, was asking you and you seem to hint that it'shappening.
Is conservation, environmental aspects being taught in schools in general to the nextgenerations coming through?
a white African, be a black Africans.
Yeah, good question because that's something that is my passion as well.
(21:40):
You know, we've had this thing called Rhino Art.
We've educated over 750,000 children in schools in the last decade.
But that is an organization that we pay for and, you know, travel agents like Go havehelped us with that to achieve that in the past.
oh
But it is not part of the curriculum, other than there's some really good models in Kenyawhere kids go to parks on open days and so on.
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But as part of the curriculum, probably not enough.
Again, the needs analysis needs to go more scientific conservation services, maybe acompulsory lesson about.
anything to do with nature-based solutions in classrooms would probably be better.
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Again, this is a sweeping question because every country is different throughout um Eastand Southern or even West West Africa, that matter.
But do young people coming through when they're looking for a career see tourism as afinancially beneficial profession to get in?
does do they think like I could work in a factory to do this or I could be trained as aguy, trains a conservation, trains as a as a park ranger, and it's financially a good
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pathway.
Yeah, good question because every young child, African child, wants to play on a computeror be a doctor or be a rocket scientist or something, you know.
And they're not enough, maybe artisans, welders and plumbers and things like that becauseit isn't a sexy business.
um conservation or game ranging or trails guarding is starting to change.
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I can see...
people watching television now all want to be like that young guy that's a hero.
The girls call it cocky fever, they fall in love with their game ranger.
So it is there, but our salaries are still way below that of IT, for example.
I think there's also room for that, but I can see there are winds of change.
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So on that point, here's a broader question.
We're still getting away from the rhino, but I think this encapsulates protection of theYeah, it's all part of the bigger picture.
Is, again, your base in South Africa and your organization's base in South Africa, whichyou mentioned earlier on.
So I'm going to ask this question, I guess you can answer from a South African's point ofview, but maybe you have opinions on the East and everywhere else.
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Is the youth of Africa, very broad generalization there, um
As they look to careers in general, um is it IT in Africa that drives young men and youngwomen?
Is it medicine?
Is it science?
Is conservation?
Is wildlife?
And you are a hotbed of wildlife, it's Africa.
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um And most people I've met from that area of the world, they grew up with the wildlife,even they're in the city, it's still part of their upbringing.
Taking the conservation question out altogether, is that side of a career even
you sort of answer, is it popular versus getting into being a lawyer, being a doctor,being into IT, being an influencer?
(24:57):
All these different career paths now is wildlife in general and conservation in particularstarting to not be sexy anymore.
No, I mean it's kind of six of the one and half a dozen of the other.
And I would say wildlife tourism, obviously wildlife goes with tourism.
(25:17):
um But they're still lean towards IT and doctors and suburban life.
There's this young, the young perception of young people all wanting to go to cities.
Obviously they go to university.
um
But I have it on great authority now working and I'm working in eight countries in Africa,by the way.
(25:43):
So I'm not only.
Okay, just again, I want to get back to my question, but so the eight countries would beSouth Africa obviously.
Rwanda, Democratic Republic, Angola, Uganda, Tanzania, and a couple of new emerging ones,know.
Not Kenya?
Kenya, not as much as the others, but I am collaborating with the Kenyans.
(26:06):
So I do know the models there, and I know a lot of...
Well, Rwanda is people in chimpanzees, DRC is gorillas, Uganda is tourism and rhinos.
So it's a combination of everything and I've kind of grown up and that's where I got toknow Go-Way is through Amakala Game Reserve, our game reserve in the Eastern Cape where
(26:29):
I've been here before to sell tourism.
Now I'm still selling tourism but I'm an advocate for change for wildlife.
Okay, so that's my original question you can answer on behalf or you have a you have goodin you have good insight into multiple countries in Africa.
So my original question of is the wildlife side of things from a career point of view,regardless of finance, just from I want to get into something wildlife falls away or
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tourism falls away compared to the others.
Yeah.
No, I think there's a change, there's a move to wildlife, there's a move to tourism awayfrom other means, but definitely I would say everybody still wants the blue collar, white
collar business and not the khaki collar.
Good.
(27:16):
As we both know, as much as tourism, regardless of where you are in the world, can be, youknow, the usual term for Africa, khaki, like out in the road seeing the exotic stuff.
Yeah.
As you and I both know, we're sitting in an office here today doing the blue white collarstuff.
So there is as much blue white collar stuff in the industry as anywhere else.
Yeah.
That's still not a draw to people.
(27:38):
Yeah, I think it is a draw to people as, you know, wildlife has moved into various aspectsof things.
mean, if you look at marketing, it's all IT really, you know, and if you look atfundraising, or it's all basically corporate or philanthropy.
(27:58):
And you have to come to those jobs generally, unless you work your way through over theyears.
Come through with university marketing degrees, communication degrees, etc.
So, yeah, it's kind of a very difficult one, but I can see where we're leaning to.
We definitely, we need bigger resources, bigger salaries, better pay for people to bedrawn in it.
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We noticed in Southern Africa, with the RAND versus the dollar, a lot of our game rangersare moving into Africa because of the dollar-based economy, where South Africa is still on
a RAND, roughly a RAND-based.
Okay, so they're moving out of South Africa to Eastern or other...
Yeah, the money is better, the rates are higher.
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The only thing is, obviously there's a bit of malaria in some places.
So younger families tend to be cautious.
So family orientated safaris, I'm talking about personnel and people working in safaris,have moved to southern Africa where they can have a house and a nice school and no malaria
and their wife and kids can go to a nursery school, whereas the young
(29:07):
a young male or female is happy to live or work remotely.
uh
was interesting, was actually speaking to him, she brought it up out of the blue the otherday, we were in South Africa earlier this year, we stayed, went to the private game
reserve, Camp Kapama, and our guide there, Ian Smith, no Ian Schmidt, sorry, Ian Smith isour account manager here, Ian Schmidt, amazing man, ah and as we drive around the private
(29:37):
game reserve, we drove past this particular spot, said, that's where I live, that's myhouse, and it was literally in the middle of the game reserve.
Nowhere.
And like Little Fence, because obviously, wildlife are cruising in.
has two young boys, and they go to school outside of the game reserve in the nearby town.
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, was just sort of to your point that he was more than, he loved being, as we say inAustralia and as we say in South Africa, being bushed in the middle of nowhere, but still
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having access to all the amenities for education and stuff like that.
And he was an amazing guide, anyone out there private guiding?
Way to go.
quality of life in what we're is you can't beat it.
Well again, back to our original question, you have to want that and live it becausethat's quite an interesting way to live.
I love it.
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I'd be all for it if I was educated the way Ian was in regards to the wildlife around him.
But yeah, if you're into it, then yeah, it's perfect environment to bring your kids up inas well.
so what are the practical things?
Now you mentioned patrolling.
So from a...
(30:45):
from a real life situation, let's say one of your patrols come across poachers at night,and that's normally when it happened, I would assume.
Come across poachers stalking a rhino, about to attack it in the middle of, maybe thekill.
What do you do?
What can you do legally there and then after the fact?
Talk us through a real life situation.
(31:08):
situation.
So firstly, Don, the real life, our work is to beat them to the horn.
So if there is intelligence, cameras, information, that all has to be distributed amongstthose that are our role players, from the police, the helicopter, you know, the
(31:33):
anti-poaching units, the stopper blocks.
So all that gets put into place.
It's vital that we beat them to the horn.
Once the shot goes off and there's a victim, then there's a whole other conundrum thatyou've got to do.
You have to set the dogs out.
You've got to find the carcass, direction of the shot, where the fence was broken.
(31:56):
You've to put the dog on the lead.
um And then obviously the stopper blocks and all the m roadblocks are set up in the area.
based on cameras.
So cameras and technology, we put drones up, we put the aircraft into the sky.
It's a serious operation when something happens.
You don't just send a person out, you're sending multiple arms of your organization outto...
(32:19):
multiple arms and you've got 20 minutes, roughly 20 minutes before the horn is on a roadand that road is now hopefully blocked or cameraed.
So you flag the number plate in some instances, you know where the break in the fence is,there's some blood which the dog is following, the dogs are on the spore, if it's not too
(32:41):
hot, if it's the sun, then you need numerous dogs because they can only do about eight.
or eight minutes or whatever and then they're tired so we put another dog on.
Then once it's in a vehicle then you've got a problem.
Then the next stopper group has to open that vehicle, stop all the cars, check it and getthe other dog, which is now a sniffer dog, to sniff out weapons, the horn, blood and so
(33:06):
on.
And all that has to happen with the policemen in presence, you can apprehend but you can'tarrest.
So those are the other...
constraints that we have in this whole thing.
Then you've got to find the bullet of the carcass, so a vet has to come out, so becomes acrime scene, you cordon the thing off, and the more you tamper with the crime scene, the
(33:31):
less chance you've got of not of arresting, of prosecution.
So prosecution, then there's a docket opened and the prosecution goes through a wholeprocess of very, very deep...
intelligence, know, is there a cigarette, but is there a cartridge, is the cartridgematching to other crimes?
(33:55):
It's exactly like a human murder crime.
And then obviously DNA is taken from the carcass and DNA is taken from the horn if youfind the horn and the weapon is matched to that and then then you've got a decent case.
That's happening every week.
Yeah, or once a month, hopefully every week, but
(34:16):
And their syndicates are known.
We're also doing lifestyle audits at the moment.
So people that are fingered are getting audited by proper subpoenas.
So is their money going to the bank?
Is it a cash transaction?
Who's being paid?
They triangulate all the phone calls and so on.
(34:38):
So like the protection of the rhino, it's multi-layered as is the killing of and then thedistribution of it's multi-layered in respect to how it's investigated.
And then you open the bonnet and then you find a raffle in there, you find the horn,sometimes the horn is underneath the car, strapped on, sometimes it's between the radiator
and the fan hidden away and you can't see it, you know.
(35:00):
So if your team came across poachers in the middle of the act, are the poachers likelyjust to throw their arms up and say you got me or are they likely to be violent?
they're going to shoot back.
And we can't kill them until your life is threatened.
That's one of those things you can shoot unless they shoot first type situation But you dohave the authority to fire back and kill if needed
Yeah, if it's protecting your own life.
(35:24):
Generally, we are nonviolent NGO, so we don't carry weapons.
Even our dog handlers run with a weaponed armed guard that is one of the authorities.
So by that statement it sounds like they're NGOs that are armed and
They are.
So they are security force, basically.
(35:46):
we are a non-violent means.
So the guy in the aircraft may have his personal gun.
The dog handler may have his personal pistol, but we don't run.
His concentration is purely dog.
other person has to.
Having said that, he's the first line.
(36:07):
If there's somebody lying in the grass and he gets to the victim first.
his life is in danger.
So the dog's got to bark.
The other guy's got to have his back all the time.
And we never go out with only two people.
They've got to be a team.
So back to your original point, the poachers will generally just not throw their arms up.
(36:27):
They will fight back and therefore it's a very serious situation when you call down.
So um how can...
Okay, let go back to Navarro's question as well.
Do you, with the rhinos under your protection in your area, do you dehorn them to stop thepoaching?
(36:49):
Yes, a big part of our intervention now is dehorning.
So remember, there's 10 or 12 or 15 interventions.
Some of them may be technology, drones, aircraft, dogs, horses.
Dehorning is one of the dozen.
There's no silver bullet.
Dehorning is dropping the poaching by 70%.
And that's official statistics research.
(37:12):
How does that not stop the poaching altogether?
Or you're just saying that because there are still rhinos out there who are not dehornedtherefore?
No, they're runners with no horns on.
Because they cannot see them at night.
I'll write that they see the outline of a rhino, don't realize it doesn't have one.
or the length of the horn.
We cut the horns off at four fingers off the base of them.
(37:35):
From the nose.
So effectively, there's four inches or four fingers plus a regrowth, which is an inch ayear.
So there can be a substantial value there, you know, if you're talking money.
And when they cut them off, they don't worry about
Aesthetics and blood vessels and veins are just cutting it.
(37:58):
So there is a big reason to cut to if they've gone to the trouble of shooting a rhino,they're not going to leave a non deer uh horned rhino.
We call it stub, stumpy.
Yeah, they'll take a stumpy.
So that is the 30 % of the 70, which is saying we want we don't want that one will have aone with a big horn.
(38:20):
Okay, so as we mentioned before, the rhino horn is like a fingernail.
So when you do dehorn, obviously it's done under supervision of Vess, et cetera, and Ipresume they're subdued.
But the cutting off itself is not painful in any way.
It's just like having your fingernail cut.
Does it affect behavior?
Because I think I remember reading somewhere, well, the horn's there for a reason, andit's like for young males to, know, mark, well not mark territory, but fight for their
(38:45):
territory and fight in general.
So by dehorning...
um Let me ask this real basic question.
Male and female have horns.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Absolutely.
So they're all going to fight and they're all going to use it.
Do they use horns for digging and no, just really for sharpening.
Sharpening,
They sharpen again, stumps and teeps and things like that.
(39:07):
a horn through organized dehorning, does that affect their uh behavior?
Does it affect their nature, I guess, for one of a
It does marginally.
um Dehorning, our scientists told us that dehorning has decreased the age at first carvingfor example, because the females, young female coming to Eastris for the first time,
(39:32):
cannot defend a male that is coming to mate it for example.
So therefore she's conceiving a year or two younger.
Their home range has decreased a bit and remember that we cannot dehorn.
We must de-hune everything.
What do you mean?
Alright, okay.
(39:52):
So it doesn't really help to only do half the population and also like painting the GoldenGate Bridge, know, if you've got a thousand rhinos in a landscape, it takes you time to
finish a thousand rhinos.
You've got to start again and they staggered, know, some have got some peas, some have gotno horns, some have got, you know, three years growth.
(40:13):
So what's the gestation period for a female when she's pregnant?
16 for a white and 15 for a black rhino.
And we don't dehorn young calves.
So already there's now a gap between a calf that's under four months or six months becausenow you've got to dot both animals.
And then from the time that a female gives birth, how long before she can or does fallpregnant again for the cycle to continue.
(40:40):
They're carving about two and a half, a good cow is carving it about two and a half years.
Their calf is weanable, you know, after two years.
Well, they stay with their mothers until the day before they have the next calf, which isalso a very, very interesting thing to watch if you ever know rhinos like I do, and you
can watch the cow getting rid of her previous calf, and she's been living with mom for twoand a half years.
(41:08):
If you think dropping your kids at school was hard on the first day, this is very, very,very brutal because the calf just won't understand and she's saying, then giving her hell
and putting the horn under and picking up and throwing him or her.
Yeah.
And she's feeling it's very violent until she's got a small calf.
(41:30):
She can't defend it anymore.
And then the other bull generally comes.
and he takes over and he gives the calf a big hiding.
oh And then that sibling, two and a half years old, goes off miserable and then finds amate of its own age.
Generally that's what happens.
Okay, interesting.
um So the breeding cycle is not, I think an elephant's a lot longer than that.
(41:53):
Yeah, 20.
Yeah, so it's slow, but it's not super fast either.
if we're, the breeding cycle would not outpace rhino poaching.
I guess what I'm getting at.
So they're not gonna breed quickly enough to counteract the poaching.
No, no, because they're like cheetah uh
(42:19):
it's not only the gestation, it's then two years of mothering before the next calf is onits way.
So, I mean, you can see how extinction can spiral into, you know, as quickly as it can.
Yeah, that's I getting at.
Not that you'd ever want to allow poaching to continue, but even if did, it's not asustainable model.
(42:43):
The poaching will outstrip the breeding cycle.
Yeah, so that's the big thing with the demand, you know the demand versus trade You knowand and we won't even go into that debate because it's a big conundrum.
Yeah, if you ask me about it I'd rather not you know, but You never know how quickly youcan go extinct.
Yeah, you either got too few or too many.
(43:05):
Yeah, yeah and em Yeah, if you get it wrong Things can go very wrong at the moment.
I would say I'm optimistic
But nobody can relax and say, we're now winning this battle.
that's why tourism, education, job opportunities, um habitat, rewilding, corridors, allthe above are as important as any other one.
(43:35):
Right.
So from a funding point of view, um can agents out there tell their clients, there waysother than direct donations, which I'm sure you would accept, are there ways that people
can have their money when they travel go towards not only your projects, but projects ingeneral?
(43:56):
Tourism in one is money back into a local economy.
We've had those conversations before.
But as an example, and again, I remember asking this question in the first
time we met, I remember seeing years and years ago a company, I can't remember its name,that allowed travelers to assist with things like dehorning.
when your team goes out to dehorn and subdue the animal, they could go along and be like adog's body and help out.
(44:22):
Do you offer that type of thing, if not other ways that people can be more directlyinvolved with this?
Everyone is doing that now.
um It's become a major source of revenue purely because rhinos are very expensive to keep.
So we call it philanthropic tourism, behind the scenes tourism, know, support um donationsand so on.
(44:46):
So without that, I think we'd really be struggling.
We're losing a lot of smaller parks that aren't effective, that cannot afford.
security.
So it is vital that we keep, you know, we've got another source of income.
one would be bums in beds.
(45:07):
The other one would be a conservation levy.
The other one would be um gift shop, you know, biodiversity credits, and so on.
But philanthropic arm is now taken over a lot of uh the tourism.
So through Go Away and working with Project Rhino, travelers, if they wish, can partake,based on scheduling and everything else like that, course.
(45:30):
They can partake in hands-on Rhino protection.
Travel with a purpose, impact travel where go-away clients can provide X amount that canbe predetermined before they get there, it can be pre-planned.
um It is very hard to plan an intervention because you've got heat, um tornadoes, not somany tornadoes in Africa, but there's extreme weather conditions and...
(46:04):
if people are only there for two days, you know, it's something that we don't like to preplan, but we do book interventions, you know, with fits and so on beforehand, you've got
to have a helicopter, a vet, an apparatus, which is generally a collar.
So it's not only dehorning, it can be a collar can be every single rhino needs to have aDNA.
So you still take the DNA test at some point, whether it's two years old or three yearsold, someone.
(46:32):
Yeah, I saw something on TikTok because my feed feeds me a lot of African wildlife stuff.
I'm assuming you will do the same thing, but I'll use this as an example.
was, I think it was East Africa.
An elephant had wandered probably off its reservation and a local had thrown a spear atit.
And then other locals saw the spear in the elephant, made a few phone calls, and then thelocal organization came out, subdued the elephant, withdrew the spear, patched him up, et
(46:59):
cetera, et cetera.
I assume if there's a rhino out there that's been hurt,
just by accident or by human intervention.
That's also something you do.
You go and fix them up and look after them just from a purely health point of view.
Yeah, an emergency situation.
Now, if that situation arose, if you had a go away traveler in your bed, in your room, youknow, it would be lovely to take him or her along.
(47:20):
that is an emergency operation which you cannot plan for.
yeah, yeah, not to make the plan, but your organization also does that.
would if the value was big enough yeah if it was an impala or you know something smallermaybe not
Yeah, I was thinking Rhino in this case, you're thinking all animal.
Rhino, maybe a Sable, maybe a Giraffe.
(47:44):
So what is the distinguishing line that if an impala is hurt is in your mind is thatthat's just nature taking its course?
Okay, because impala are everywhere and not in danger by any means.
no, and we live in a natural world which has to balance.
But we also intervene.
(48:05):
So in predator terms, we over-manage predators.
Right.
So a predator would be seen as, okay, if the line is old, let her be killed by a prey.
But if you were in a smaller reserve, you would want to protect that line for any otherreason.
So you would then...
(48:25):
dotted with a guest or without a guest to intervene in the management process.
You just mentioned there, if the lion was old, you'd let the pride or let the pride killit.
Is that what happens to an older lion?
Are they normally taken out by the pride or they wander off under a tree and just fallasleep?
starvation or another pride would take her.
(48:45):
Another pride, Or he would die of starvation because he cannot hunt anymore, generally.
Do you do any works with lions in South Africa?
We do, all our work is connected.
you know, if lions were, lion bone trade is a big thing.
yeah?
So, and lions in captivity is something that we totally against because people have, theycall it canned hunting.
(49:13):
You know, so.
So when you say lions in captivity talking like a rich oil shake with a blind in hisbackyard or lines or the red in a private reserve to be hunted the pit or
don't know if you've seen a lot of these movies like, you know, the lions, all the lionstories where they pet young animals, cubs with volunteers and they're cute and so on.
(49:36):
At three years old or three months old, they get weaned to six months to a year.
And then after five years, the catalog goes out and people come and hunt them.
So that is something, you know, that we completely against.
So anything that's...
can accept you or caged or canned.
(49:57):
It's part of our wildlife crime basis.
So you're saying in the example you said, because I just assumed that the trophy hunterswould go to reserves like a private game reserve where the wildlife was wild and they have
the opportunity to hunt under, I'm doing inverted commas for those who listening, legalparameters.
(50:18):
Because I know there are some legalities.
You're allowed to do it.
I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs that right now.
But you're saying often, or that's my word, at times animals are
bred for this first, it's just a private game reserve with lions on it, which are hunted.
You're saying that they're in captivity, hand reared to eventually be hunted.
(50:40):
Yeah, I didn't know that.
enclosures.
fed.
And then when it comes to time to move them, they then move them to larger areas.
And they are then shot.
So they moved to a larger area just to be hunted because they wouldn't survive for anextended period of time in an open environment, would they?
(51:04):
My sources tell me there's 8,000 lions in semi-captivity or captivity.
In Southern Africa alone, South Africa alone.
So what is the government's opinion on that type of tourism?
Because it is a form of tourism.
It's trophy hunting.
And we've all seen the photos of notable people.
(51:27):
um Or they might have been notably before their picture.
They were definitely notable after they published their pictures.
So what's the government's view on that?
Because I know the South African government is very pro, we've got to protect ourenvironment.
At the same time, are they justifying it by, well, it's a small amount.
it's bringing in good revenues.
Is that their position on this?
(51:47):
There's a whole policy procedure that's in review at the moment.
So I'm not at liberty to tell you what that is, I know there's a big lobby against it.
There are people saying, we've got a problem.
We cannot change it overnight.
Are you saying to us, and these are people that are for hunting the lions, we've got toeuthanize 8,000 lions, for example?
(52:13):
And the Minister of Tourism, or not the Minister of Tourism, the authorities are saying,well, you know, this is a calamity if this happens.
So they have it under review at the moment.
I'm not quite sure whether it is, uh it's called norms and standards for captive breedinganimals.
(52:36):
Right, I remember we were actually on our South African trip, I can't remember where, wedid a lot of flying between, we were on one of the buses that take you from an aircraft to
the terminal, because it wasn't at the gate, and there was a gentleman on the bus talkingvery loudly about how this type of tourism, hunting, was actually good for conservation
(52:58):
and all this type of thing.
He was very pro, naturally, his right.
Yeah.
as we were all listening, we had no choice but to listen because as I he was quiteboisterous about it.
The people around him also just started to move away because there was a very unspokenvibe of, we don't agree with that.
it was interesting because I've seen it, not seen it, sorry, heard about it, but I'venever actually even by osmosis in that instance, bumped into a hunter who went out to
(53:27):
Africa to hunt.
he was, when we saw him at the baggage carousel, had all his rifle cases and was justlike, yeah.
Well, I think we're both on the same page in that respect.
OK.
So again, if people want to get involved, can they donate directly to Project Rhino?
If they're not traveling, hopefully they'll be motivated and inspired by thisconversation.
(53:47):
They like to give $5, $10, as much as they want.
Can they donate directly to your project?
Yeah, Don.
You know, that's our business and we properly audited.
are non-profit in South Africa.
Hopefully, we will be one in Canada pretty soon.
We also got one in America.
(54:08):
So, yeah, we send out regular newsletters to our donors and I think we punch well aboveour weight and, you know, with our travel and people like Go Away,
we would be doomed, you We have commercial people that support us, brands in South Africa.
(54:31):
Then we have philanthropic people that support us globally.
And then some of the big NGOs, you know, like the Tusk or the Nat Geo or the American.
So how long has GoAE and Project Rhino been working together?
started way back with Thomson's.
This is our local South African supplier.
(54:52):
Tom's tours started way back through Moira and Craig when Craig was there before he left.
Kirstie Perring had great thing to do with it.
We thanked her and it was all linked to...
It was so much per bed going to conservation on impact.
(55:18):
Yeah, so Go is looking to strengthen this relationship even more.
I think we've, yeah, we have announced that, you know, we've, we've been Go Way haverestructured our sustainability policies and views and attitudes.
And there's some internal changes going on there.
And part that will be strengthening our partnerships with people like Grant from ProjectRhino as well.
(55:40):
So Go Way is going to up our ante, so to speak, up our participation in this, because it'ssomething that's
Also very dear and near to the owner's heart, Bruce Hodge.
He's always about the animals.
One of his statements has always been that he used to say there's no one to look after theanimals.
That has definitely changed.
There are many organizations like Grant's that will do everything they can to look afterthe animals.
(56:02):
So you can donate directly to Grant.
I'll put up some information on the video version of our podcast here for links.
Well, actually, can you give the, for those not looking at the video, uh a web link or aURL?
As our dear friend Dr.
Jane Goodall just recently departed said, the animals don't have a voice, you know?
(56:22):
And we've become their voice.
So, yeah, if people are very dedicated to anything with us, Project Rhino, go away.
You you can still go to www.projectrhino.kzn.org and...
You can pledge something, can be daily, monthly, weekly, once off and get your benefits inconservation and in revenue returns.
(56:49):
Yeah, and as said, GoA in the past has been doing that through our bookings with ProjectRhino.
It's only going to increase.
Again, if you or your clients want to get more involved when you're in South Africa, speakto your GoA destination specialists and they will communicate with Project Rhino on any
scheduled work coming up that you may be able, again, as Grant says, we don't want to dotoo much pre-planning because it's very not hit and miss, but it's nature.
(57:12):
It happens when it happens.
But make the inquiry, we can look into it.
there's any schedule, we can work around that or the itinerary can be built in such a wayto allow for, to use Grant's terminology, uh to allow for an intervention um happening
while you're in that particular area of South Africa or Uganda, Rwanda, Angola, not thatwe sell Angola at the moment.
(57:34):
Where else did you see?
Yeah, well, yeah, we've been looked at Angola, a friend of mine who's South African.
um
Garth Jemmend, who you probably know through the...
world of...
He's done a few exploratory trips to New Angola.
We're getting on subject.
And Zim's opening up truly again.
Anyway, Project Rhino, the URL's up again here if you're watching us.
(57:59):
just gave the information.
You can donate directly if you want.
Speak to your destination specialist if you or your clients want to get more directlyinvolved when in country.
Grant, thank you.
I always find these conversations fascinating.
I learn something new every day.
Excellent.
So thank you for your time today.
Everyone out there, thank you for your time.
We know how busy you are and we appreciate you listening in.
And we really hope that today opened up actually, Grant's fiddling with something on thedesk for those watching.
(58:24):
And I was gonna ask him earlier and I forgot what is that Grant?
Don, this is a talking stick in Zulu traditions, uh Zulu and Dubele, wherever you comefrom in Africa, one of the Nguni tribes.
You sit around a fire and you talk about, this gives you the wisdom to fight for a causeand talk with wisdom.
It's called induguzopafumla, which means the stick that breathes information and life intothe storytelling.
(58:51):
Okay, so for those watching, can see for those listening, it's a sort of one third thesize of a walking stick or a cane.
That's one you could put in the overhead compartments on the plane.
So to have that, like, is that something that, like, you could probably buy one those inthe market, I gather.
(59:13):
But it also has a true meaning to the tribes of Southern Africa at least anyway.
Goony.
The one you're holding, is that something that you've just picked up for the sake, I don'twant to be insulting you, for the sake of it, or is this something that's been gifted to
you because of the work you've done?
Is it something that a tribal elder has maybe imbued with some, like they blessed it, soto speak?
(59:35):
No, this is a red ivory stick m and it's not imbued.
It's just done many, conversations around the fire.
Right, so the stick gets its character by its use, by its story.
m
be any stick and you can use it in your elderly age when you're walking around YongeStreet.
m
(59:55):
I can say it's also a, yeah, it's a talking stickers.
and you bought it at a significant place with meaning.
Yeah.
And you've given some story to it.
Or it was given to you by me or a tribal elder who blessed you with some...
like that.
I've just had an idea.
Again, this is going to be dated because we're recording this in mid-October.
(01:00:16):
Upcoming is our Africa and Middle East show in Calgary and Vancouver, and we're doing acouple of panels.
I might borrow the talking stick idea and pass it around the panel as we're
I that.
If I wasn't doing a talk in Pebble Beach on Thursday, I would give you this.
that's yours.
It's probably had too much history with you and your fantastic stories.
Again, on that note, thank you everyone for your time, Grant.
Thank you very much.
(01:00:36):
Appreciate it.
Thanks, Doug.
Project Rhino is an association of like-minded organizations facilitating rhinoconservation interventions aimed at eliminating rhino poaching and securing the white and
black rhino populations of Crozoul Natal.
you
The association is also aware that the poaching of rhino is symptomatic of the overallbigger environmental crisis facing South Africa and its neighbors.
(00:28):
What motivates us daily is the dream of both white and black rhino species thriving inKwaZulu-Natal and far beyond.
Forever free, forever secure from poaching, well managed and protected.
We honor their uniqueness as one of the primary icons of Africa's great wilderness areas.
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goay and welcome to the GoayPro Travel TalePodcast.
(01:01):
and gravel off with.
uh
to the Go A Pro Travel Tales podcast.
um For those who've been with us from day one, the very first podcast I sat down to do waswith this gentleman that we're gonna speak to today, Grant Foles, and he is the director
of Project Rhino.
We'll get into what all that means in a moment.
(01:22):
But what had happened is Grant was one of our first interviewees, yes, interviewees, backin the day.
But unfortunately, the interview we did at the time, the file was corrupted.
We never got to use it.
So Grant, when was that Grant?
was, hello?
Nearly to 18 months, I think.
18 months, Okay, so we're doing a redo, albeit a delayed review on it or retake for wantof a better term.
(01:49):
So again, officially welcome Grant to the podcast.
As I mentioned, Grant is director of Project Rhino.
So without stating the obvious, what does Project Rhino do or stand for?
Yeah Don, thank you for having me at GoAway.
A uh very old and loyal family in the travel business in downtown Toronto.
(02:11):
um Project Rhino is a non-profit organization operating out of South Africa um andobviously working in the game reserves, mainly in KwaZulu-Natal, which for those who do
not know, was the origins of most of the white rhino in the world.
(02:31):
So Project Rhino facilitates and assists all the game reserves in the province ofKwaZulu-Natal and beyond.
Now is KwaZulu-Natal South Africa or is that one of the kingdoms within the geographicalarea of South Africa?
um It's one of the kingdoms in the geographical area.
So does it, this is off the Rhino aspect here, does that operate as an independent countrywithin South Africa?
(02:57):
I've always been curious to how the, because there are two kingdoms within South Africa.
Wasn't it town, what's the other one?
there's a kingdom of Lesotho, there's a kingdom of Swaziland, but those are independentcountries.
KwaZulu-Natal is one of the nine provinces in southern Africa.
Right, so it is South Africa but also recognized as a, well not independent kingdom, butas a kingdom province.
(03:20):
okay.
Okay, so you mentioned white rhino.
Now most people will look at a photo of a rhino and not know whether it's white, black, orotherwise.
um And you mentioned that Quasimodo was the area that the white rhino was more abundant,for want of a better term?
It was saved from extinction way back in the 60s because there were very little whiterunners left in the world as they were decimated right throughout Africa post-colonialism.
(03:48):
So what is the difference between a white and a black rider?
The difference, Don, is pretty simple.
The white rhino is a grazer and it stays out in the plains, and the black rhino is abrowser and it stays in thicker bush.
um An easier way to identify that thing, we were with legend Moira Smith, and they saywhen Mrs.
(04:08):
Smith shops with her trolley and she's carrying a baby, she puts the baby in the frontpouch.
And when Mrs.
Kuzwaya, an African lady, then shops at the shopping center.
she belettas her child at the back.
Now, a black rhino always has the child at the back, and a white rhino always runs withits baby in the front.
(04:34):
Really?
And nature will never change that.
It's just the way that God made them.
Well, that's that I didn't know.
Interesting.
OK, so white rhino were in major trouble in the 60s in southern Africa.
So back to what we just discussed, the difference.
It's where they eat for one of the better term or grays um were or are white rhino fromthe tip of South Africa up to what we would term Eastern Africa.
(04:59):
Is it the same for the black?
Are they in their own specific areas?
Yes, so black rhinos occurred in abundance all throughout Africa, but they happened to bepoached much more than at that point in time.
So the Western black rhino, which is West Africa, were completely wiped out.
The Eastern black, they're more Kenyan, Kenyan as far as down to sort of Tanzania.
(05:24):
They've now revived slowly.
And the...
critically endangered black rhino is Appendix 1, which is critical, and Appendix 2 iswhite rhino, which are more abundant.
So there are more numbers in white rhino at the moment, largely due to South Africa owning83 % of the world's white rhino population.
(05:50):
Right, so there are white rhino in East Africa though.
They are.
They are white rhino now.
They were the northern white rhinos in parts of southern Sudan and Congo.
And now they bring, well, obviously the revival of the white rhino is happening in Kenyaas well.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, but both types of rhino are still on the endangered list or?
(06:14):
Critically endangered is the black and endangered which is an appendix to animal is thewhite rhino because they have managed to breed them at a larger alarming rate.
So on the scale of flourishing to endangered, critically is the last step before they go.
Yeah, critically there's very few left.
Other critically endangered animals or mammals in the world are pangolins and you knowpanda bears and polar bears and so on, those sort of things.
(06:45):
So does Project Rhino by its name, I would assume that it only looks, well not only, itfocuses only on rhino.
Do you do any other work outside of the rhino species?
We do a lot of work on every species, anything to do with wildlife crime.
It just so happens to be that the rhinos are the most sought after, or most critically, umnot endangered, but critically poached at the moment.
(07:12):
Not more than pangolins, but not more than any other mammal, but they're the ones that arethe flagship species that we need to protect more than others.
And I would also assume that by the nature of the animal itself, a rhino, it's much uheasier identifiable to the average person.
(07:32):
When you are looking to call attention to endangered species, if you have a moreprominent, well-known recognized animal that works in your favor, you basically in very
crude terms, you can pull money in based on the fact that people know rhinos, but at thesame time still be looking after the pangolins and other.
Yeah, well rhinos are, you know, they're part of our living dinosaurs.
(07:54):
mean, they've been on this earth for over 50 to 60 million years.
So I think people, you know, like elephants and maybe lions, they aspire to this massivemammal that looks almost prehistoric, you know.
And yeah, we need them on this planet.
Yeah, for sure.
(08:14):
um So what, in what ways does Project Rhino protect rhinos?
So we have various ways of protecting and remember we are an umbrella body for many, manyreserves.
So we would contribute by flying our aircraft.
We have several aircraft and pilots that fly over the game reserves every day.
(08:36):
Patrolling, looking for carcasses, looking for dogs, looking for breakages in the fence.
So an airwheel we call it the Zuland anti-poaching wing is one of the interventions.
The other ones is we facilitate dog handlers, canons.
We also have facilitation for uh equine safaris.
(08:56):
uh We patrol with horses.
The other wing that we have is obviously our community engagement is very important.
Sustainability and livelihoods of people surrounding the parks.
And then a very obvious one is that we've got to look at habitat.
(09:17):
So range expansion, the new world for range expansion is more habitat, is basicallyrewilding.
So a certain portion of our energy has to go into more space for these animals, be itthrough corridors or be it through uh more land and better interventions.
(09:40):
Yeah, you sort of answered one of my next questions of you said you're out patrolling inthe many forms from the air, on the ground, foot, on horseback.
So what are you patrolling for?
You've answered one question, obviously, one of the reasons they're struggling, orwildlife in general, in most countries, particularly in Africa, are struggling, is the
encroachment of their habitat, human encroachments.
(10:02):
You've answered that question.
I would assume therefore the most damaging intrusion to their survival is poaching for thehorn.
Yeah, absolutely.
So what is the reason that they go after the horn?
Well that is a conundrum that nobody can really understand, You know there was a spike intooth, well there was a beginning of the century, about 2005, there was this myth that
(10:32):
rhino horn would cure cancer.
It was previously, it was always at gifting in the days of Yemen and when rhinos wereabundant.
mean, horns were taken from rhinos, of dead rhinos, and left in the lodges and they actedas door stoppers, so the door didn't bang shut, you know?
And now they have to be guarded and put into bank vaults, you know, that's the crazything.
(10:56):
So it's not an ivory situation for the elephants where it's used for decorative carving.
It's more supposed.
medicinal drug practice.
The myth is that cancer occur at the moment.
There has been sort of aphrodisiac links to it, but that is not even an issue anymore.
(11:19):
Have they done any testing on rhino horn to see if it does have any treatment and does ithave any?
It has absolutely no medicinal effects whatsoever.
It's like a toenail, it's like a fingernail, isn't it?
Yeah.
a composition point of view.
hair, fingernails, toenails, whatever you like to call it, it's keratin.
m Effectively, it's worthless.
(11:41):
And it's crazy how uh perception has just overruled this beautiful, iconic animal ormammal.
Yeah, and I guess a natural, and I remember asking this question in original podcastinterview was why don't poachers then just come in, subdue the animal and take the horn
(12:02):
and not kill the animal full on?
it, like a fingernail grows back as well.
Yeah, it does.
And I remember your answer, but could you please answer that question again as to whypoachers just don't subdue the animal?
Well, because the poachers would have to use a drug, which they don't have.
uh They haven't got the means of getting the drugs for a start, and some of them have.
(12:23):
So it has happened.
And um you know, the easiest for them is to use an old weapon of high caliber, shoot theanimal, chop the horn off and let it die because it can't retaliate.
If it was half sedated, it can also retaliate.
Any, sorry.
uh
Yeah, so retaliation and you know, the tragedy at dawn is that sometimes they shoot a cowwith a small calf and the calf is irritating the poachers while they're chopping the horn
(12:53):
of the mother off.
Yeah, they kill the calf.
And they kill the calf or chop the calf up into pieces where it's um maimed and we have torescue these calves and put them into orphanage with all these cut marks all over them
from axes.
really?
Yeah, so it's a cruel world out there but you know...
Money is the driving force behind this thing and unfortunately, um you know, uh iconicanimal or mammal like the rhinoceros is now just a scapegoat for money laundering.
(13:23):
really.
Yeah.
In what way?
How does that work from a money laundering point of
you know all the legal things in the world right now are weapons drugs cocaine Maybe thecontraband like sex or cigarettes or anything like that.
So those items and wildlife trafficking whether it be a pet trade or medicinal PCM, whichwe call traditional Chinese medicine Are all They're the it's the fourth biggest illegal
(13:55):
illicit trade in the world.
So
We're never going to stop poaching.
It's here for us to just make it very difficult.
you know, it's just a fact of life and people think that it can be done, technology ishelping and all these things that we're throwing at poaching intervention, but it's never
(14:17):
going to go away while the value is there.
m
And again, I'm not looking to blame a region of the world or a race, but my understandingis that the sought after market is the Asian market, as in they see the value, be it real
or perceived, the rhino horn.
So it's primarily from the Asian market.
(14:38):
That's the demand market.
But having said that, when we were in Vietnam, they kept on saying, but Africans arekilling their own rhino.
We're just buying it.
We kept on blaming them.
we, as Africans, or the people, the local people, are actually pulling the trigger.
The buyers are the ones in the East.
(14:59):
And all the steps or the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, two or three of those
bottom rungs are in Africa and the two remaining ones are in Southeast Asia and maybe oneis in a port somewhere between doing the deal.
Well, it might be local Africans pulling the trigger, but they're pulling the trigger dueto the demand that's placed on it by a foreign market.
(15:26):
And that leads into conversations about local poverty situations.
going back to my question of why they don't subdue it, obviously, shooting an animal andchopping the horn is quick and easy and they're out of there.
therefore, from their eyes, it's easy money if they have the connections to lead on fromthere.
(15:47):
So again, on that note, most of the people who are probably shooting the animals, be itelephant or anything else for that matter, are local Africans of some description, more
than likely um from a poverty point of view, that's getting easy money for them.
So how do you counter, and there have been lots of successes with particularly themountain gorillas in educating the local community that the protection of the animal in
(16:12):
the long term is to the local communities.
benefit and you did touch on community interaction earlier on.
Yeah.
So, yeah, community conservation and the wellbeing of people surrounding parks isparamount.
If we don't give these people ownership of the rhinos, or if we don't give themopportunities, be it for food or for employment, empty stomachs have no ears, you know?
(16:40):
They go and get the greed of what they perceive through the fence.
And again,
A fence is a big barrier and again South Africa have got fences, the rest of Africa do nothave fences but they have an imaginary line where you've got communities on one side of
the river perhaps and the other side like in Tanzania there'd be a park and there'd be nobarrier the lines and the cattle can walk through but that we call a human fence.
(17:07):
Effectively that's a no-go area for both species and there is human-wildlife conflict inbetween those two but...
Until people are buying in, until they can see a value of an elephant or rhino or gorilla,and that comes through tourism, uh and their livelihoods are protected by whoever, the
(17:28):
tour operator, the hotel owner, um the whole chain is vital and impact is very importantin community conservation.
The community sees the benefit in protecting wildlife in general, so the rhino, because umtourism increases, which brings money into the community, which then turn hopefully if
(17:56):
it's managed and directed, builds a school, builds hospitals, brings a higher quality ofliving to the locals and in turn they now see and understand why keeping animals alive is
beneficial to them.
ah I would assume that you have seen success with that model for Project Rhino over theyears.
Yes, absolutely.
um Great amounts of success with leaders in the conservation space.
(18:21):
But I have to be very cautious because we're seeing signs of over-tourism in Africa now.
It's very important that the governing body or the conservation authority, wherevercountry they're working in, whether it be Southern Africa, Tanzania, Kenya, or whatever
that...
(18:42):
have the right rules in place to prevent over tourism.
And that can be anything from a model of so many beds per hectare, so many jeeps or LandRovers.
um And if you have too many beds for the amount of ecosystem that you have, you have thisposition where, you know, even the locals now are complaining because they've just been
(19:04):
pushing revenue, revenue, revenue to a state where somebody gets disgruntled over, um youknow, all sorts of
disadvantages instead of advantages and the swing is very quick, you know.
Right.
um Have you seen through the employment opportunities that conservation has created, ortourism for that matter, but conservation in particular has created, where you're not only
(19:28):
seeing the local community understand the financial benefits of it, but also becomingpassionate from a purely um personal point of view that, yes, this will have my family
secure if I look after it, but I also, I want to protect it.
because of the animal itself, like because of the environment itself.
(19:49):
Have you seen a broadening of education and awareness by local communities that protectingthe environment in general is a positive thing, the right thing to do?
Yeah, Don, I mean, there hundreds of examples of people that are champions in Africa.
But I do say with the scale of the problem in the world, hundreds of examples of successis probably not enough.
(20:14):
Yeah.
You know, there are still people that are being left behind.
And, you know, that's because South Africa is still over 40 percent unemployed.
Congo civil war, you know, you've got problems in.
Mogadishu, you've got problems in Rwanda with M23 rebels, for example, even though it'squite a secure country.
(20:38):
And then you see other little places like Namibia really getting behind their tourism ispushing now.
They've got a great tourism model and also looking after runners with a communityperspective.
So I think we're getting there, but we're not transforming fast enough.
(20:59):
uh And that all starts with a two-year-old, with early childhood development.
uh If we can start there and push our education ah even right through to the chiefs andthe tribal authorities, we can transform Africa a lot quicker than what is happening at
the moment.
(21:19):
A better way of asking my question then is, was asking you and you seem to hint that it'shappening.
Is conservation, environmental aspects being taught in schools in general to the nextgenerations coming through?
a white African, be a black Africans.
Yeah, good question because that's something that is my passion as well.
(21:40):
You know, we've had this thing called Rhino Art.
We've educated over 750,000 children in schools in the last decade.
But that is an organization that we pay for and, you know, travel agents like Go havehelped us with that to achieve that in the past.
oh
But it is not part of the curriculum, other than there's some really good models in Kenyawhere kids go to parks on open days and so on.
(22:07):
But as part of the curriculum, probably not enough.
Again, the needs analysis needs to go more scientific conservation services, maybe acompulsory lesson about.
anything to do with nature-based solutions in classrooms would probably be better.
(22:31):
Again, this is a sweeping question because every country is different throughout um Eastand Southern or even West West Africa, that matter.
But do young people coming through when they're looking for a career see tourism as afinancially beneficial profession to get in?
does do they think like I could work in a factory to do this or I could be trained as aguy, trains a conservation, trains as a as a park ranger, and it's financially a good
(22:55):
pathway.
Yeah, good question because every young child, African child, wants to play on a computeror be a doctor or be a rocket scientist or something, you know.
And they're not enough, maybe artisans, welders and plumbers and things like that becauseit isn't a sexy business.
um conservation or game ranging or trails guarding is starting to change.
(23:23):
I can see...
people watching television now all want to be like that young guy that's a hero.
The girls call it cocky fever, they fall in love with their game ranger.
So it is there, but our salaries are still way below that of IT, for example.
I think there's also room for that, but I can see there are winds of change.
(23:49):
So on that point, here's a broader question.
We're still getting away from the rhino, but I think this encapsulates protection of theYeah, it's all part of the bigger picture.
Is, again, your base in South Africa and your organization's base in South Africa, whichyou mentioned earlier on.
So I'm going to ask this question, I guess you can answer from a South African's point ofview, but maybe you have opinions on the East and everywhere else.
(24:12):
Is the youth of Africa, very broad generalization there, um
As they look to careers in general, um is it IT in Africa that drives young men and youngwomen?
Is it medicine?
Is it science?
Is conservation?
Is wildlife?
And you are a hotbed of wildlife, it's Africa.
(24:34):
um And most people I've met from that area of the world, they grew up with the wildlife,even they're in the city, it's still part of their upbringing.
Taking the conservation question out altogether, is that side of a career even
you sort of answer, is it popular versus getting into being a lawyer, being a doctor,being into IT, being an influencer?
(24:57):
All these different career paths now is wildlife in general and conservation in particularstarting to not be sexy anymore.
No, I mean it's kind of six of the one and half a dozen of the other.
And I would say wildlife tourism, obviously wildlife goes with tourism.
(25:17):
um But they're still lean towards IT and doctors and suburban life.
There's this young, the young perception of young people all wanting to go to cities.
Obviously they go to university.
um
But I have it on great authority now working and I'm working in eight countries in Africa,by the way.
(25:43):
So I'm not only.
Okay, just again, I want to get back to my question, but so the eight countries would beSouth Africa obviously.
Rwanda, Democratic Republic, Angola, Uganda, Tanzania, and a couple of new emerging ones,know.
Not Kenya?
Kenya, not as much as the others, but I am collaborating with the Kenyans.
(26:06):
So I do know the models there, and I know a lot of...
Well, Rwanda is people in chimpanzees, DRC is gorillas, Uganda is tourism and rhinos.
So it's a combination of everything and I've kind of grown up and that's where I got toknow Go-Way is through Amakala Game Reserve, our game reserve in the Eastern Cape where
(26:29):
I've been here before to sell tourism.
Now I'm still selling tourism but I'm an advocate for change for wildlife.
Okay, so that's my original question you can answer on behalf or you have a you have goodin you have good insight into multiple countries in Africa.
So my original question of is the wildlife side of things from a career point of view,regardless of finance, just from I want to get into something wildlife falls away or
(26:56):
tourism falls away compared to the others.
Yeah.
No, I think there's a change, there's a move to wildlife, there's a move to tourism awayfrom other means, but definitely I would say everybody still wants the blue collar, white
collar business and not the khaki collar.
Good.
(27:16):
As we both know, as much as tourism, regardless of where you are in the world, can be, youknow, the usual term for Africa, khaki, like out in the road seeing the exotic stuff.
Yeah.
As you and I both know, we're sitting in an office here today doing the blue white collarstuff.
So there is as much blue white collar stuff in the industry as anywhere else.
Yeah.
That's still not a draw to people.
(27:38):
Yeah, I think it is a draw to people as, you know, wildlife has moved into various aspectsof things.
mean, if you look at marketing, it's all IT really, you know, and if you look atfundraising, or it's all basically corporate or philanthropy.
(27:58):
And you have to come to those jobs generally, unless you work your way through over theyears.
Come through with university marketing degrees, communication degrees, etc.
So, yeah, it's kind of a very difficult one, but I can see where we're leaning to.
We definitely, we need bigger resources, bigger salaries, better pay for people to bedrawn in it.
(28:20):
We noticed in Southern Africa, with the RAND versus the dollar, a lot of our game rangersare moving into Africa because of the dollar-based economy, where South Africa is still on
a RAND, roughly a RAND-based.
Okay, so they're moving out of South Africa to Eastern or other...
Yeah, the money is better, the rates are higher.
(28:42):
The only thing is, obviously there's a bit of malaria in some places.
So younger families tend to be cautious.
So family orientated safaris, I'm talking about personnel and people working in safaris,have moved to southern Africa where they can have a house and a nice school and no malaria
and their wife and kids can go to a nursery school, whereas the young
(29:07):
a young male or female is happy to live or work remotely.
uh
was interesting, was actually speaking to him, she brought it up out of the blue the otherday, we were in South Africa earlier this year, we stayed, went to the private game
reserve, Camp Kapama, and our guide there, Ian Smith, no Ian Schmidt, sorry, Ian Smith isour account manager here, Ian Schmidt, amazing man, ah and as we drive around the private
(29:37):
game reserve, we drove past this particular spot, said, that's where I live, that's myhouse, and it was literally in the middle of the game reserve.
Nowhere.
And like Little Fence, because obviously, wildlife are cruising in.
has two young boys, and they go to school outside of the game reserve in the nearby town.
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, was just sort of to your point that he was more than, he loved being, as we say inAustralia and as we say in South Africa, being bushed in the middle of nowhere, but still
(30:05):
having access to all the amenities for education and stuff like that.
And he was an amazing guide, anyone out there private guiding?
Way to go.
quality of life in what we're is you can't beat it.
Well again, back to our original question, you have to want that and live it becausethat's quite an interesting way to live.
I love it.
(30:25):
I'd be all for it if I was educated the way Ian was in regards to the wildlife around him.
But yeah, if you're into it, then yeah, it's perfect environment to bring your kids up inas well.
so what are the practical things?
Now you mentioned patrolling.
So from a...
(30:45):
from a real life situation, let's say one of your patrols come across poachers at night,and that's normally when it happened, I would assume.
Come across poachers stalking a rhino, about to attack it in the middle of, maybe thekill.
What do you do?
What can you do legally there and then after the fact?
Talk us through a real life situation.
(31:08):
situation.
So firstly, Don, the real life, our work is to beat them to the horn.
So if there is intelligence, cameras, information, that all has to be distributed amongstthose that are our role players, from the police, the helicopter, you know, the
(31:33):
anti-poaching units, the stopper blocks.
So all that gets put into place.
It's vital that we beat them to the horn.
Once the shot goes off and there's a victim, then there's a whole other conundrum thatyou've got to do.
You have to set the dogs out.
You've got to find the carcass, direction of the shot, where the fence was broken.
(31:56):
You've to put the dog on the lead.
um And then obviously the stopper blocks and all the m roadblocks are set up in the area.
based on cameras.
So cameras and technology, we put drones up, we put the aircraft into the sky.
It's a serious operation when something happens.
You don't just send a person out, you're sending multiple arms of your organization outto...
(32:19):
multiple arms and you've got 20 minutes, roughly 20 minutes before the horn is on a roadand that road is now hopefully blocked or cameraed.
So you flag the number plate in some instances, you know where the break in the fence is,there's some blood which the dog is following, the dogs are on the spore, if it's not too
(32:41):
hot, if it's the sun, then you need numerous dogs because they can only do about eight.
or eight minutes or whatever and then they're tired so we put another dog on.
Then once it's in a vehicle then you've got a problem.
Then the next stopper group has to open that vehicle, stop all the cars, check it and getthe other dog, which is now a sniffer dog, to sniff out weapons, the horn, blood and so
(33:06):
on.
And all that has to happen with the policemen in presence, you can apprehend but you can'tarrest.
So those are the other...
constraints that we have in this whole thing.
Then you've got to find the bullet of the carcass, so a vet has to come out, so becomes acrime scene, you cordon the thing off, and the more you tamper with the crime scene, the
(33:31):
less chance you've got of not of arresting, of prosecution.
So prosecution, then there's a docket opened and the prosecution goes through a wholeprocess of very, very deep...
intelligence, know, is there a cigarette, but is there a cartridge, is the cartridgematching to other crimes?
(33:55):
It's exactly like a human murder crime.
And then obviously DNA is taken from the carcass and DNA is taken from the horn if youfind the horn and the weapon is matched to that and then then you've got a decent case.
That's happening every week.
Yeah, or once a month, hopefully every week, but
(34:16):
And their syndicates are known.
We're also doing lifestyle audits at the moment.
So people that are fingered are getting audited by proper subpoenas.
So is their money going to the bank?
Is it a cash transaction?
Who's being paid?
They triangulate all the phone calls and so on.
(34:38):
So like the protection of the rhino, it's multi-layered as is the killing of and then thedistribution of it's multi-layered in respect to how it's investigated.
And then you open the bonnet and then you find a raffle in there, you find the horn,sometimes the horn is underneath the car, strapped on, sometimes it's between the radiator
and the fan hidden away and you can't see it, you know.
(35:00):
So if your team came across poachers in the middle of the act, are the poachers likelyjust to throw their arms up and say you got me or are they likely to be violent?
they're going to shoot back.
And we can't kill them until your life is threatened.
That's one of those things you can shoot unless they shoot first type situation But you dohave the authority to fire back and kill if needed
Yeah, if it's protecting your own life.
(35:24):
Generally, we are nonviolent NGO, so we don't carry weapons.
Even our dog handlers run with a weaponed armed guard that is one of the authorities.
So by that statement it sounds like they're NGOs that are armed and
They are.
So they are security force, basically.
(35:46):
we are a non-violent means.
So the guy in the aircraft may have his personal gun.
The dog handler may have his personal pistol, but we don't run.
His concentration is purely dog.
other person has to.
Having said that, he's the first line.
(36:07):
If there's somebody lying in the grass and he gets to the victim first.
his life is in danger.
So the dog's got to bark.
The other guy's got to have his back all the time.
And we never go out with only two people.
They've got to be a team.
So back to your original point, the poachers will generally just not throw their arms up.
(36:27):
They will fight back and therefore it's a very serious situation when you call down.
So um how can...
Okay, let go back to Navarro's question as well.
Do you, with the rhinos under your protection in your area, do you dehorn them to stop thepoaching?
(36:49):
Yes, a big part of our intervention now is dehorning.
So remember, there's 10 or 12 or 15 interventions.
Some of them may be technology, drones, aircraft, dogs, horses.
Dehorning is one of the dozen.
There's no silver bullet.
Dehorning is dropping the poaching by 70%.
And that's official statistics research.
(37:12):
How does that not stop the poaching altogether?
Or you're just saying that because there are still rhinos out there who are not dehornedtherefore?
No, they're runners with no horns on.
Because they cannot see them at night.
I'll write that they see the outline of a rhino, don't realize it doesn't have one.
or the length of the horn.
We cut the horns off at four fingers off the base of them.
(37:35):
From the nose.
So effectively, there's four inches or four fingers plus a regrowth, which is an inch ayear.
So there can be a substantial value there, you know, if you're talking money.
And when they cut them off, they don't worry about
Aesthetics and blood vessels and veins are just cutting it.
(37:58):
So there is a big reason to cut to if they've gone to the trouble of shooting a rhino,they're not going to leave a non deer uh horned rhino.
We call it stub, stumpy.
Yeah, they'll take a stumpy.
So that is the 30 % of the 70, which is saying we want we don't want that one will have aone with a big horn.
(38:20):
Okay, so as we mentioned before, the rhino horn is like a fingernail.
So when you do dehorn, obviously it's done under supervision of Vess, et cetera, and Ipresume they're subdued.
But the cutting off itself is not painful in any way.
It's just like having your fingernail cut.
Does it affect behavior?
Because I think I remember reading somewhere, well, the horn's there for a reason, andit's like for young males to, know, mark, well not mark territory, but fight for their
(38:45):
territory and fight in general.
So by dehorning...
um Let me ask this real basic question.
Male and female have horns.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Absolutely.
So they're all going to fight and they're all going to use it.
Do they use horns for digging and no, just really for sharpening.
Sharpening,
They sharpen again, stumps and teeps and things like that.
(39:07):
a horn through organized dehorning, does that affect their uh behavior?
Does it affect their nature, I guess, for one of a
It does marginally.
um Dehorning, our scientists told us that dehorning has decreased the age at first carvingfor example, because the females, young female coming to Eastris for the first time,
(39:32):
cannot defend a male that is coming to mate it for example.
So therefore she's conceiving a year or two younger.
Their home range has decreased a bit and remember that we cannot dehorn.
We must de-hune everything.
What do you mean?
Alright, okay.
(39:52):
So it doesn't really help to only do half the population and also like painting the GoldenGate Bridge, know, if you've got a thousand rhinos in a landscape, it takes you time to
finish a thousand rhinos.
You've got to start again and they staggered, know, some have got some peas, some have gotno horns, some have got, you know, three years growth.
(40:13):
So what's the gestation period for a female when she's pregnant?
16 for a white and 15 for a black rhino.
And we don't dehorn young calves.
So already there's now a gap between a calf that's under four months or six months becausenow you've got to dot both animals.
And then from the time that a female gives birth, how long before she can or does fallpregnant again for the cycle to continue.
(40:40):
They're carving about two and a half, a good cow is carving it about two and a half years.
Their calf is weanable, you know, after two years.
Well, they stay with their mothers until the day before they have the next calf, which isalso a very, very interesting thing to watch if you ever know rhinos like I do, and you
can watch the cow getting rid of her previous calf, and she's been living with mom for twoand a half years.
(41:08):
If you think dropping your kids at school was hard on the first day, this is very, very,very brutal because the calf just won't understand and she's saying, then giving her hell
and putting the horn under and picking up and throwing him or her.
Yeah.
And she's feeling it's very violent until she's got a small calf.
(41:30):
She can't defend it anymore.
And then the other bull generally comes.
and he takes over and he gives the calf a big hiding.
oh And then that sibling, two and a half years old, goes off miserable and then finds amate of its own age.
Generally that's what happens.
Okay, interesting.
um So the breeding cycle is not, I think an elephant's a lot longer than that.
(41:53):
Yeah, 20.
Yeah, so it's slow, but it's not super fast either.
if we're, the breeding cycle would not outpace rhino poaching.
I guess what I'm getting at.
So they're not gonna breed quickly enough to counteract the poaching.
No, no, because they're like cheetah uh
(42:19):
it's not only the gestation, it's then two years of mothering before the next calf is onits way.
So, I mean, you can see how extinction can spiral into, you know, as quickly as it can.
Yeah, that's I getting at.
Not that you'd ever want to allow poaching to continue, but even if did, it's not asustainable model.
(42:43):
The poaching will outstrip the breeding cycle.
Yeah, so that's the big thing with the demand, you know the demand versus trade You knowand and we won't even go into that debate because it's a big conundrum.
Yeah, if you ask me about it I'd rather not you know, but You never know how quickly youcan go extinct.
Yeah, you either got too few or too many.
(43:05):
Yeah, yeah and em Yeah, if you get it wrong Things can go very wrong at the moment.
I would say I'm optimistic
But nobody can relax and say, we're now winning this battle.
that's why tourism, education, job opportunities, um habitat, rewilding, corridors, allthe above are as important as any other one.
(43:35):
Right.
So from a funding point of view, um can agents out there tell their clients, there waysother than direct donations, which I'm sure you would accept, are there ways that people
can have their money when they travel go towards not only your projects, but projects ingeneral?
(43:56):
Tourism in one is money back into a local economy.
We've had those conversations before.
But as an example, and again, I remember asking this question in the first
time we met, I remember seeing years and years ago a company, I can't remember its name,that allowed travelers to assist with things like dehorning.
when your team goes out to dehorn and subdue the animal, they could go along and be like adog's body and help out.
(44:22):
Do you offer that type of thing, if not other ways that people can be more directlyinvolved with this?
Everyone is doing that now.
um It's become a major source of revenue purely because rhinos are very expensive to keep.
So we call it philanthropic tourism, behind the scenes tourism, know, support um donationsand so on.
(44:46):
So without that, I think we'd really be struggling.
We're losing a lot of smaller parks that aren't effective, that cannot afford.
security.
So it is vital that we keep, you know, we've got another source of income.
one would be bums in beds.
(45:07):
The other one would be a conservation levy.
The other one would be um gift shop, you know, biodiversity credits, and so on.
But philanthropic arm is now taken over a lot of uh the tourism.
So through Go Away and working with Project Rhino, travelers, if they wish, can partake,based on scheduling and everything else like that, course.
(45:30):
They can partake in hands-on Rhino protection.
Travel with a purpose, impact travel where go-away clients can provide X amount that canbe predetermined before they get there, it can be pre-planned.
um It is very hard to plan an intervention because you've got heat, um tornadoes, not somany tornadoes in Africa, but there's extreme weather conditions and...
(46:04):
if people are only there for two days, you know, it's something that we don't like to preplan, but we do book interventions, you know, with fits and so on beforehand, you've got
to have a helicopter, a vet, an apparatus, which is generally a collar.
So it's not only dehorning, it can be a collar can be every single rhino needs to have aDNA.
So you still take the DNA test at some point, whether it's two years old or three yearsold, someone.
(46:32):
Yeah, I saw something on TikTok because my feed feeds me a lot of African wildlife stuff.
I'm assuming you will do the same thing, but I'll use this as an example.
was, I think it was East Africa.
An elephant had wandered probably off its reservation and a local had thrown a spear atit.
And then other locals saw the spear in the elephant, made a few phone calls, and then thelocal organization came out, subdued the elephant, withdrew the spear, patched him up, et
(46:59):
cetera, et cetera.
I assume if there's a rhino out there that's been hurt,
just by accident or by human intervention.
That's also something you do.
You go and fix them up and look after them just from a purely health point of view.
Yeah, an emergency situation.
Now, if that situation arose, if you had a go away traveler in your bed, in your room, youknow, it would be lovely to take him or her along.
(47:20):
that is an emergency operation which you cannot plan for.
yeah, yeah, not to make the plan, but your organization also does that.
would if the value was big enough yeah if it was an impala or you know something smallermaybe not
Yeah, I was thinking Rhino in this case, you're thinking all animal.
Rhino, maybe a Sable, maybe a Giraffe.
(47:44):
So what is the distinguishing line that if an impala is hurt is in your mind is thatthat's just nature taking its course?
Okay, because impala are everywhere and not in danger by any means.
no, and we live in a natural world which has to balance.
But we also intervene.
(48:05):
So in predator terms, we over-manage predators.
Right.
So a predator would be seen as, okay, if the line is old, let her be killed by a prey.
But if you were in a smaller reserve, you would want to protect that line for any otherreason.
So you would then...
(48:25):
dotted with a guest or without a guest to intervene in the management process.
You just mentioned there, if the lion was old, you'd let the pride or let the pride killit.
Is that what happens to an older lion?
Are they normally taken out by the pride or they wander off under a tree and just fallasleep?
starvation or another pride would take her.
(48:45):
Another pride, Or he would die of starvation because he cannot hunt anymore, generally.
Do you do any works with lions in South Africa?
We do, all our work is connected.
you know, if lions were, lion bone trade is a big thing.
yeah?
So, and lions in captivity is something that we totally against because people have, theycall it canned hunting.
(49:13):
You know, so.
So when you say lions in captivity talking like a rich oil shake with a blind in hisbackyard or lines or the red in a private reserve to be hunted the pit or
don't know if you've seen a lot of these movies like, you know, the lions, all the lionstories where they pet young animals, cubs with volunteers and they're cute and so on.
(49:36):
At three years old or three months old, they get weaned to six months to a year.
And then after five years, the catalog goes out and people come and hunt them.
So that is something, you know, that we completely against.
So anything that's...
can accept you or caged or canned.
(49:57):
It's part of our wildlife crime basis.
So you're saying in the example you said, because I just assumed that the trophy hunterswould go to reserves like a private game reserve where the wildlife was wild and they have
the opportunity to hunt under, I'm doing inverted commas for those who listening, legalparameters.
(50:18):
Because I know there are some legalities.
You're allowed to do it.
I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs that right now.
But you're saying often, or that's my word, at times animals are
bred for this first, it's just a private game reserve with lions on it, which are hunted.
You're saying that they're in captivity, hand reared to eventually be hunted.
(50:40):
Yeah, I didn't know that.
enclosures.
fed.
And then when it comes to time to move them, they then move them to larger areas.
And they are then shot.
So they moved to a larger area just to be hunted because they wouldn't survive for anextended period of time in an open environment, would they?
(51:04):
My sources tell me there's 8,000 lions in semi-captivity or captivity.
In Southern Africa alone, South Africa alone.
So what is the government's opinion on that type of tourism?
Because it is a form of tourism.
It's trophy hunting.
And we've all seen the photos of notable people.
(51:27):
um Or they might have been notably before their picture.
They were definitely notable after they published their pictures.
So what's the government's view on that?
Because I know the South African government is very pro, we've got to protect ourenvironment.
At the same time, are they justifying it by, well, it's a small amount.
it's bringing in good revenues.
Is that their position on this?
(51:47):
There's a whole policy procedure that's in review at the moment.
So I'm not at liberty to tell you what that is, I know there's a big lobby against it.
There are people saying, we've got a problem.
We cannot change it overnight.
Are you saying to us, and these are people that are for hunting the lions, we've got toeuthanize 8,000 lions, for example?
(52:13):
And the Minister of Tourism, or not the Minister of Tourism, the authorities are saying,well, you know, this is a calamity if this happens.
So they have it under review at the moment.
I'm not quite sure whether it is, uh it's called norms and standards for captive breedinganimals.
(52:36):
Right, I remember we were actually on our South African trip, I can't remember where, wedid a lot of flying between, we were on one of the buses that take you from an aircraft to
the terminal, because it wasn't at the gate, and there was a gentleman on the bus talkingvery loudly about how this type of tourism, hunting, was actually good for conservation
(52:58):
and all this type of thing.
He was very pro, naturally, his right.
Yeah.
as we were all listening, we had no choice but to listen because as I he was quiteboisterous about it.
The people around him also just started to move away because there was a very unspokenvibe of, we don't agree with that.
it was interesting because I've seen it, not seen it, sorry, heard about it, but I'venever actually even by osmosis in that instance, bumped into a hunter who went out to
(53:27):
Africa to hunt.
he was, when we saw him at the baggage carousel, had all his rifle cases and was justlike, yeah.
Well, I think we're both on the same page in that respect.
OK.
So again, if people want to get involved, can they donate directly to Project Rhino?
If they're not traveling, hopefully they'll be motivated and inspired by thisconversation.
(53:47):
They like to give $5, $10, as much as they want.
Can they donate directly to your project?
Yeah, Don.
You know, that's our business and we properly audited.
are non-profit in South Africa.
Hopefully, we will be one in Canada pretty soon.
We also got one in America.
(54:08):
So, yeah, we send out regular newsletters to our donors and I think we punch well aboveour weight and, you know, with our travel and people like Go Away,
we would be doomed, you We have commercial people that support us, brands in South Africa.
(54:31):
Then we have philanthropic people that support us globally.
And then some of the big NGOs, you know, like the Tusk or the Nat Geo or the American.
So how long has GoAE and Project Rhino been working together?
started way back with Thomson's.
This is our local South African supplier.
(54:52):
Tom's tours started way back through Moira and Craig when Craig was there before he left.
Kirstie Perring had great thing to do with it.
We thanked her and it was all linked to...
It was so much per bed going to conservation on impact.
(55:18):
Yeah, so Go is looking to strengthen this relationship even more.
I think we've, yeah, we have announced that, you know, we've, we've been Go Way haverestructured our sustainability policies and views and attitudes.
And there's some internal changes going on there.
And part that will be strengthening our partnerships with people like Grant from ProjectRhino as well.
(55:40):
So Go Way is going to up our ante, so to speak, up our participation in this, because it'ssomething that's
Also very dear and near to the owner's heart, Bruce Hodge.
He's always about the animals.
One of his statements has always been that he used to say there's no one to look after theanimals.
That has definitely changed.
There are many organizations like Grant's that will do everything they can to look afterthe animals.
(56:02):
So you can donate directly to Grant.
I'll put up some information on the video version of our podcast here for links.
Well, actually, can you give the, for those not looking at the video, uh a web link or aURL?
As our dear friend Dr.
Jane Goodall just recently departed said, the animals don't have a voice, you know?
(56:22):
And we've become their voice.
So, yeah, if people are very dedicated to anything with us, Project Rhino, go away.
You you can still go to www.projectrhino.kzn.org and...
You can pledge something, can be daily, monthly, weekly, once off and get your benefits inconservation and in revenue returns.
(56:49):
Yeah, and as said, GoA in the past has been doing that through our bookings with ProjectRhino.
It's only going to increase.
Again, if you or your clients want to get more involved when you're in South Africa, speakto your GoA destination specialists and they will communicate with Project Rhino on any
scheduled work coming up that you may be able, again, as Grant says, we don't want to dotoo much pre-planning because it's very not hit and miss, but it's nature.
(57:12):
It happens when it happens.
But make the inquiry, we can look into it.
there's any schedule, we can work around that or the itinerary can be built in such a wayto allow for, to use Grant's terminology, uh to allow for an intervention um happening
while you're in that particular area of South Africa or Uganda, Rwanda, Angola, not thatwe sell Angola at the moment.
(57:34):
Where else did you see?
Yeah, well, yeah, we've been looked at Angola, a friend of mine who's South African.
um
Garth Jemmend, who you probably know through the...
world of...
He's done a few exploratory trips to New Angola.
We're getting on subject.
And Zim's opening up truly again.
Anyway, Project Rhino, the URL's up again here if you're watching us.
(57:59):
just gave the information.
You can donate directly if you want.
Speak to your destination specialist if you or your clients want to get more directlyinvolved when in country.
Grant, thank you.
I always find these conversations fascinating.
I learn something new every day.
Excellent.
So thank you for your time today.
Everyone out there, thank you for your time.
We know how busy you are and we appreciate you listening in.
And we really hope that today opened up actually, Grant's fiddling with something on thedesk for those watching.
(58:24):
And I was gonna ask him earlier and I forgot what is that Grant?
Don, this is a talking stick in Zulu traditions, uh Zulu and Dubele, wherever you comefrom in Africa, one of the Nguni tribes.
You sit around a fire and you talk about, this gives you the wisdom to fight for a causeand talk with wisdom.
It's called induguzopafumla, which means the stick that breathes information and life intothe storytelling.
(58:51):
Okay, so for those watching, can see for those listening, it's a sort of one third thesize of a walking stick or a cane.
That's one you could put in the overhead compartments on the plane.
So to have that, like, is that something that, like, you could probably buy one those inthe market, I gather.
(59:13):
But it also has a true meaning to the tribes of Southern Africa at least anyway.
Goony.
The one you're holding, is that something that you've just picked up for the sake, I don'twant to be insulting you, for the sake of it, or is this something that's been gifted to
you because of the work you've done?
Is it something that a tribal elder has maybe imbued with some, like they blessed it, soto speak?
(59:35):
No, this is a red ivory stick m and it's not imbued.
It's just done many, conversations around the fire.
Right, so the stick gets its character by its use, by its story.
m
be any stick and you can use it in your elderly age when you're walking around YongeStreet.
m
(59:55):
I can say it's also a, yeah, it's a talking stickers.
and you bought it at a significant place with meaning.
Yeah.
And you've given some story to it.
Or it was given to you by me or a tribal elder who blessed you with some...
like that.
I've just had an idea.
Again, this is going to be dated because we're recording this in mid-October.
(01:00:16):
Upcoming is our Africa and Middle East show in Calgary and Vancouver, and we're doing acouple of panels.
I might borrow the talking stick idea and pass it around the panel as we're
I that.
If I wasn't doing a talk in Pebble Beach on Thursday, I would give you this.
that's yours.
It's probably had too much history with you and your fantastic stories.
Again, on that note, thank you everyone for your time, Grant.
Thank you very much.
(01:00:36):
Appreciate it.
Thanks, Doug.
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