March 20, 2025 • 54 mins
Māori culture runs deep throughout New Zealand, permeating almost all aspects of life, including the official Māori name of New Zealand, Aotearoa.
Māori culture is actively preserved and integrated into everyday life in modern-day Newzealand, with prominent practices like the traditional welcome ceremony, the hongi (nose-to-nose greeting), kapa haka (group performance), carving, weaving, and the use of the Māori language.
But there is so much more depth to how Māori culture has reclaimed its rightful position as an integral part of New Zealand and what it means to be a Kiwi.
Join Sean Marsh, General Manager of Sales and Marketing at Te Puia and Professor Goway Don Forster as they explore Māori culture in modern-day New Zealand.
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Episode Transcript
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New Zealand, that wee little island, or actually islands across the Tasman Sea fromAustralia, has long been a sought after destination for globetrotters.
It offers amazing vistas from alp-like mountains in the south to the famed geothermals ofRotorua in the north.
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wine, cuisine, adventure, relaxation and welcoming people.
New Zealand has it all.
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaay, and welcome to the GoaayPro Travel TalePodcast.
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and gravel often.
New Zealand has it all.
The country like Australia from where I hail was founded in modern times by the expandingBritish Empire.
Our two countries have fought side by side from the Boer War to the Afghan War as theAnzacs, Australian New Zealand Army Corps.
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We have common interests in sport, politics, lifestyles and views most of the times.
While they are two very different countries, we also share many similarities.
One other shared experience is the interactions and dealing with the original inhabitantsof each of the respective countries.
And these experiences are echoed with the First Nations of Canada and the US.
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But whereas other countries are still learning and attempting to address past wrongs andtrying to assimilate ancient cultures into modern day societies, New Zealand, at least
from the outside, has seen the Māori, the original inhabitants of the islands of the LongWhite Cloud and their culture
become an integral part of modern day New Zealand and all its peoples.
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Today we're gonna talk about New Zealand, but more importantly, we're gonna delve intothe, well actually before I say that, let me introduce our guest, it's Sean Marsh, who is
the general manager, sales and marketing at Debuya, which is located in Rotorua.
So welcome Sean, thank you for your time today.
Kilda Don, nice to meet you.
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Yeah, thank you very much.
And as I just mentioned, Sean is coming to us live from New Zealand Rotorua.
So Sean, what we're going to talk about today is about the about the Maori culture andwhat I was going to ask before I of redirected my introduction there.
Here in Canada and North America, the indigenous population referred to as First Nations.
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Is there a particular descriptive for the Maori other than or is it just the Maoripeoples?
Yeah, kia ora anō, kia ora, tēnā ra tātou kato, kia ora everybody.
Yeah, it would be, I mean, nowadays, we would say te ao Māori, the Māori world, or wewould say te iwi Māori being like the Māori tribes or the Māori nation, or Māori is fine.
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And then also in the Māori language, we refer to ourselves as tangata whenua or people ofthe land.
yeah, there's a few different ways, yeah, Māori is fine.
Te ao Māori, the Māori world, or Tiwi Māori, the Māori tribes, the Māori nation.
Okay, so when you get into the origins of the Māori, and I'll just use that expression,the Māori, in a moment, but let's get into the origins of So Shaun, you are of Māori
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descent, we just discussed that off air.
As I mentioned, you are General Manager Sales and Marketing of Te Puyhau.
Can you give us a bit of background on yourself in regards to how you got into tourism andin particular into Te Puyhau?
Ka pai, ka pai.
Yes, so into tourism, probably sort of almost 30 years ago, almost by accident, I was sortof working in, was a crane operator, forklift operator and bouncer.
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And I was on a date with my now wife, having fish and chips on the beach.
And I just saw this ad in the paper and it said,
Do you like meeting people?
you like, you know, all these things about the tourism industry?
I said, they're looking at it going, oh, yeah, actually, I do like all those things,travel.
And it sort of it was advertising a like a tourism course of study.
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And I'd been at uni and I was just working all these sort of manual jobs, just doingnothing.
And then and then, yeah, just got into the course.
got into the industry working in the local visitor centers, then moved into destinationmarketing, and then have been at Te Puea for 14 years in various roles in year now GM,
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sales and marketing.
Okay, so what other than I guess maybe being headhunter otherwise, what drew you to yourrole or all the company of Te Puea?
Te Pūia, really easy.
It's the kaupapa or the purpose of the organization.
we are a really unique entity in that, we are a visitor attraction.
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It's a place that people can come to.
We have this incredible natural phenomenon known as Pōhutū geyser and 60 hectares ofnative forest.
And just it's a geothermal wonderland.
As part of that attraction, we also have a school on site, or a wānanga, called the NewZealand Māori Arts and Crafts Institute.
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And essentially the way that our model has worked for the last 60 years is that tourismunderpins cultural perpetuation.
So we have these incredible schools with masters, tutors and students.
Everything is self-funded by our organisation.
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into those Wānā.
We don't receive government funding, but we're working on a project at the moment to tryand facilitate some philanthropic support.
But it was what drew me here was the fact that tourism, which I'm passionate about,underpinned cultural perpetuation in these incredible art forms and just the traditional
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pillars of our culture.
So that was really simple.
So when you say schools, are you talking what most people would think of any like youngchildren in a classroom setting or are you talking more schools about the arts and crafts
of the Maori or are you talking schools of not reintroduction of but reinforcement of theMaori culture?
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Almost the last two things there.
So it's a tertiary level degree.
So it's post high school.
Alright, so it is a truly functioning school as in you can you sit down for your actualamount of years and come out with a degree of some description.
Yes, yeah.
So we have a, for example, we have wood carving, traditional like weaving with naturalfibers, and then the stone and bone carving that's with like New Zealand Pounamu, the
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green stone or whalebone, et cetera.
Essentially the students apply from all over the country.
We only accept a maximum of five per school.
There are three schools.
And then it's a very intense course of study for either two or three years.
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The three year wood carving course is the equivalent to receiving a master's degree.
And we have our own Act of Parliament.
So Te Puea New Zealand Māori Arts and Crafts Institute, we have our own Act of Parliament,and that confers us with the, gives us the responsibility to not only protect
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these traditional forms of art and craft, but to also perpetuate them into the futurethrough study.
And then it gives us, we have the power to confer qualifications.
it's a very cool model.
And we actually have First Nations groups from North America, from all over the world comeand visit us and really study our model.
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I have a group coming up from Canada next week actually that are
that are coming here to just have a really close up look at what we do and how we do it.
So the schools have been in operation for how long?
On this site in this current form for 60 years.
And then, you know, our Act of Parliament dates back to 1926.
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So coming up on the 100 year anniversary of our Act of Parliament.
And then there were a couple of other versions of the school in different locations inRotorua prior to 1963.
But it was...
they were interrupted by the wars, you know, first of all, second of all, the GreatDepression.
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So we sort of go back to the starting point being here on this site, 60 years.
Okay, now you mentioned there are only five spots per school, per class.
Why is that?
As in, why is it such a small number?
Because it sounds like it's been very successful.
You've got groups from other countries coming in to study it.
Why not?
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Or how come you haven't opened it up to broader numbers?
We've done all of that in the past, sort of trial different levels of, know, especiallythe numbers of students.
And what we've hit on in terms of this number of students is we have a very low ratio ofteaching staff and masters to students.
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It's a really intense course of study because it's, if you go back to,
especially in the wood carving, that was, you know, prior to the arrival of Europeans andthe written form, you know, we retained our knowledge through
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through song, through memorization, oral traditions, but also through carving.
And so it's a critical, it's a really intense course of study.
So the lower ratio means that the students that do graduate, know, we want these youngmen, these young people to come from the areas
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stay with us for that minimum of three years and then return home with that knowledge andstart teaching.
yeah, that's sort of that ratio seems to be the number that works.
Right, so I guess it's like you're looking at a quality over quantity vibe.
okay.
A couple of questions on that.
So how does someone qualify for this?
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Do you need to be of Māori descent to be admitted to the school?
And you did mention, again, it just have been a passing statement.
You said young men.
Is it only men or is it open to male and female?
So for the wood carving at the moment, it's only men, and that's the tradition of thisarea.
And there are other carving schools around the country that cater to men and women.
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The tradition of this particular area is for the wood carving, it's only men, but for ourother two schools, it's open to men and women.
Okay.
And again, do you need to be of, do you need to have be of Maori descent to be admitted tothe school or is it open to all New Zealanders?
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It needs to be of Māori descent.
There's not a blood quantum applied at all, all.
There is a process in Māori culture where you, when you are formally introducing yourselfon the marae, it's called a pepeha, or a formal introduction, and it describes your line
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of descent from...
the canoe that your ancestors arrived on from Eastern Polynesia, the mountains and therivers, the other geographical features that are sacred to your tribal region, to your
people, and the ancestral house that you descend from, and then your actual ancestors.
So if you can stand on the marae and deliver your pepeha in te reo Māori in the Māorilanguage, then that's all we need.
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That's all we need to know.
Okay, so that that line, did you mention like seems to have four or five pillars to it?
How was that traced?
Is that something that's just been passed down orally?
is it because you mention before there was no written records per se.
So is that something that is just passed down orally through the to the the communities?
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Yeah, absolutely.
And through families and just even in my own experience, know, my own life, just going tobed and then sort of getting woken up by mum and down to the kitchen table and just sit
there and recite whakapapa, recite genealogy or just the families that we're connected toand why.
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tribes that we can just just just family history, tribal history, and then just makingsure that you stay connected and you stay close to those, know, to your marae.
That's amazing.
OK.
So on that note, the origins of the the Maori in New Zealand, can give us a like a I knowit's complicated, but you know, sort of a brief overview of how New Zealand how New
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Zealand became populated and, you know, there's a capsule history, I guess.
Basically, we all arrived here by boat, whether it was the Endeavour and Cook and hismates or our ancestors.
So our immediate line of ancestry takes us back to Eastern Polynesia.
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So the groups around Tahiti, the Cook Islands, especially, that is where the bulk of thewaka or the voyaging canoe.
So when we say canoe,
or waka that is any mode of transport.
When we're thinking, you know, those ancient navigators and colonization, you know,bringing people from another land into Aotearoa in New Zealand.
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The waka hōrua or the double hull voyaging canoes, you might be familiar of the movieMoana.
You know, it's that style.
So our immediate ancestry takes us back to
Eastern Polynesia, but we're related to Rapa Nui.
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All of the islands of Polynesia, the easternmost corners of Rapa Nui, the Macasis, Hawaiiin the north, Samoa, Tonga, and all the other sort small island groups.
Yeah, I was in the cooks a years ago and yes, right.
Yeah.
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No, connected by genealogy, language, custom.
Yeah, so our immediate ancestry is Eastern Polynesia and arriving on voyaging canoes.
Right.
When roughly did the peoples arrive into New Zealand?
Do you know that date?
Ish?
It's ish.
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It's anywhere from sort of 600 to 2000 years ago.
It's waves of...
Because initially the initial explorers, it wasn't necessarily for colonization.
They were seeking different resources, especially the...
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Like all of the earliest archaeological sites around the country are adjacent to...
quarries of different types of rock.
So if you imagine, you know, the culture, the people, it's a Stone Age culture, you know,one of the most important resources is different types of rock for different purposes.
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And so all of those earlier sites are related to quarry and rock.
And especially in New Zealand down in the South Island, the
or the greenstone, you know, that had properties that made it extremely sought after anduseful.
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And then subsequently waves of arrivals for people seeking new land to reside in.
My understanding in modern day is that the bulk of the Māori culture and peoples are inthe North Island and there's very few in the South.
Is that true?
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Yes, it's warmer.
But not to say that the South Island wasn't populated, but there was probably smaller,lower levels of population, but they occupied, you know, and especially in terms of
following the seasons, you know, for food, especially, and for weather.
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Communities would be up in the high country during summer.
for harvesting different types of foods.
And then when it's too cold, back down to the coast.
And not so much of that nomadic movement in the North Island because there's a higherpopulation and you don't have the same sort of degree of temperature change.
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But yeah, the proportion, there's a high proportion of Māori population in the North.
So when a modern day traveller is heading to New Zealand, North Ireland is where theywould probably experience the Māori culture more than they would in the South.
Yes and no.
mean, there are some incredible opportunities to experience Māori storytelling or Māoritourism experiences in the South.
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I'm thinking there's a really cool outrigger canoe experience in the top of the South, theAble Tasman, the whale watching in Kaikōura, and lots of
Like the further south you go, there's some incredible locations for like rock art, youand you can take guided tours into those caves and stuff.
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But there is a higher proportion of opportunity in the north, and especially in a townlike Rotorua.
This is what sort of many consider the birthplace of tourism in New Zealand, and we'reconnected to those earliest sort of beginnings of tourism.
So yeah, it's probably a greater opportunity, but the stories all over the country, all ofthem are beautiful, all of them are real, you know, and really engaging.
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So it just depends how much time people have, what the next, you know, what are the thingsthat they like to do.
yes, opportunities all over the country.
And when I was growing up in school, taught about Australian history, we're taught thatCaptain Cook, you mentioned before in the Endeavour, he was the man who discovered
Australia, which was not true at all.
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He stumbled across, not stumbled across it.
He landed in Botany Bay and that was pretty much it.
Spent some time on the Great Barrier Reef area and then sailed on.
It had been spotted and partly mapped by the Dutch before.
But what I didn't know growing up, which I've since learned, because I love my history, isthat Captain Cook, now,
Again, this I'm asking this question of you.
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don't think we'll see the first European to discover New Zealand.
I know he definitely mapped that both north and south.
I spent more time around New Zealand than he did probably anywhere else in the Pacific.
Yeah.
But was he the first European to discover New Zealand or had other Europeans before him?
Yeah, first European to land.
So Tasman, April Tasman, who, know, equally on that same journey out of Indonesia, downinto the Indian Ocean and sort of because everybody's looking for that shortcut to India,
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you know, out of Europe.
And so, you know, he's cruising along the 40 somethings parallel.
I can't remember which 45th.
And when they hit the west, not hit, but when they arrived at the west coast of the SouthIsland and saw the Southern Alps, they were like, the Andes, Peru, they're a little bit
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shorter than what I thought they were going to be.
But yes, we've we've arrived.
And, you know, there's some incredible history there in terms of, you if you look at thetop of the South Island and the national park that now bears his name, Able Tasman.
National Park.
That was the first engagement with te ao Māori and Europeans, but Tasman never landed.
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he, there was a bit of an incident, a of a moment, and so he never actually landed.
The closest, after he left here, he ended up in Tonga.
Cook was the first European explorer to actually land.
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Right.
So Cook went down, I he went down a few times, actually, he mapped in great detail, Northand South Island and then sailed on from the Australian side of things.
You again, he sort of made note of Botany Bay or landed at Botany Bay, mode made note ofwhat is now Sydney, Sydney Harbour.
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So I know my history.
Then the firstly came to Australia, etc.
When did New Zealand become colonized by Europeans that I don't know?
It's very much connected to the to the Australia story, you know, so in terms of thatcolonial history, was New Zealand was regarded by the British as part of New South Wales.
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So so initially it was treated as.
Yeah, just a just a part of New South Wales, essentially.
The and then it wasn't until later when they were.
you know, sort of more people arriving and a greater need to have, I guess, someone incountry, and that was the British resident, James Busby, was located up in North, up at
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Waitangi Bay of Islands.
And then...
There was a, it's really interesting, I'm not a historian, I love history, it's right fromthe get go, were, even Cook had a Tahitian Tohungo priest navigator on the Endeavour when
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he arrived into Aotearoa, and then straight away, there were Māori that were...
hopping onto European boats, going to Australia, going to England, going to America, andcoming back going, yeah, coming back going, wow, guys, there's like a whole world out
there that we didn't know about.
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And so there was a, you know, there was a political realization that...
the different regions, different iwi, the different tribes needed to.
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to be aware of this world that was arriving.
The other interesting aspect is obviously, as all the different European colonial powersare cruising around the Pacific, you've got the Germans, got the Russians, Americans,
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British, French, primarily Spanish were there obviously earlier than everyone.
But from the British perspective, there was very much a need to...
probably establish more of an independent approach to New Zealand and sort of start tolock it down from the French.
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And so that's when you have things being established like He Whakaputana, the Declarationof Independence of the Confederate tribes of Aotearoa New Zealand.
That was very much like a blocking maneuver to sort of say to the French, hey, these guysare their own sovereign nation.
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And that was in 1835.
And then that was followed by Te Tiriti or Waitangi in 1840.
Okay, we'll touch on that tree in a moment.
So as a comparison, when the British came to Australia, obviously the, you know, the FirstNation, the indigenous population, the Aboriginals were there had been for thousands,
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hundreds of thousands of years.
And they got hit over the head literally and metaphorically with, you know, with themodern world, the Aborigines for all intents and purposes were Stone Age to a degree,
they're still the oldest living peoples in the world.
And it was a harsh introduction.
despite goodwill and not so goodwill attempts, there's been conflict and tension andstress ever since the first day.
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And it's grown recently in Australia with questions over January 26 being Australia Day.
I don't know enough about how the interaction was between the colonial and the Maoripeople.
Was it similar in that the colonial powers
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basically came in with a heavy hand in either directly or indirectly, intentionally orunintentionally.
Is it a similar history in that respect between the Aboriginals and the Maori?
just again, just from my own understanding of things, the I'd say it was it changed, youknow, so very much at the beginning, there was a there really was a sense of not so much
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partnership, but more reliance, you know, like Māori were that the land was sort of smallenough that it's
close enough.
What am I saying?
You know, you don't want to start something up with these guys over here because just overthe hill, there's another group of guys that are probably related that can probably come
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and lend a hand.
And it was very much around striking up relationships and partnerships for trade.
So food to feed the different settlements.
you know, Māori were exporting food to Sydney in great quantities, owned schooners and,you know, coastal trading vessels that they were literally trading directly with the major
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populations in Auckland and Sydney.
And were very entrepreneurial, you know.
And then that probably changed, you know, after that first generation of contact to
acquisition, then the mood very much changed to acquiring land and then disestablishingtribal communities to essentially acquire land.
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And then that's where the conflict began.
Right.
But all different iwi have actually different, very different experiences.
Obviously, you're dealing with individuals and in some cases, sort of representatives ofthe Crown.
But each iwi have their own sort of experience based on resources of land or their ownparticular circumstances.
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Right.
And again, this is not meant to be a precise history lesson.
This is a general a generalized conversation.
Yeah, exactly.
Two tourism people talking about that.
So.
There was a very famous treaty you mentioned, Waitangi Treaty.
Can you explain what that was or what it is?
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Because I understand it's being renegotiated now or this talk of being renegotiated.
There's an attempt.
don't think they'll be successful, but there's an attempt.
It's treated as the foundation document of the country.
The critical thing about Te Tiriti o Waitangi is it's on the back of that Declaration ofIndependence.
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Who's declaration of independence, the Maori or New Zealand from the British crown?
The Maori.
Yeah, of the money just saying this is who we are with the sovereign power and that wasreceived and acknowledged by the British Crown.
And the.
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that say, hang on, I'm just trying to get my thoughts in order.
So yeah, so the critical thing that the British wanted to do was to basically set up alegal process by which they could purchase land.
And they wanted to sort of formalize that whole process.
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There are two different versions of the treaty.
There's a version in English that most people are familiar with.
And then there's the version in Te Reo Māori, the Māori language, which the vast majorityof the chiefs read, understood, and signed.
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There are just over 500 rangatira or chiefs that sign Te Tiriti.
I think there were 39 that signed the English, and some of them were literally like,
Come on, this is taking too long.
I'll just sign that version.
Are you telling me it's the same thing?
Yeah.
Okay, I'll go sign that one.
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But the vast majority, you know, they were, you know, they were very astute leaders.
And, you know, and in their minds, they had guarantees of their own sovereignty and...
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you know, over their people and their lands and taonga or their treasures, but that thegovernorship of the country, essentially the running of the government would be undertaken
by the government.
And that was the crown at that stage.
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yeah, a lot of...
I'm just trying to get my thoughts together, it's...
You know, since about sort of the the 60s and 70s, it really was something that that Māoriwere incredibly actively trying to uplift and bring back into the political consciousness
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because it had been ignored and breached and ignored and breached.
And that's what sort of set the platform for the land wars between the British and Māori.
And then, you know, literally over decades and generations, lots of people, yeah, saying,hey, here's Te Tiriti, it is a thing.
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It means this.
And it gives us a framework by which we can coexist very happily and thrive as a country.
it's all that whole framework, that whole foundation is actually embedded here in TeTiriti.
I would say, again, I'm not an expert, I would say most people nowadays are aware of theTe Tiriti and sort of it does give us a really positive framework for the future of the
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country.
And then there's also a smaller group of people, a much smaller group of people who don'twant to give up.
any sense of control or shared governance, anything like that.
it's point of tension.
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had the recent Hikoi Motutiriti, there were protests all up and down the country that wereactually incredibly positive, incredibly uplifting, but very
very real.
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know, nearly anywhere from 50 to 100,000 people marched on Parliament, you know, and in aNew Zealand population context, that's the biggest protest in our history.
But it was incredibly positive and nonviolent and, you know, all based around, you know,constructive solutions.
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we find a way forward using Teterity as our framework.
So I'm incredibly optimistic.
We're good.
We've just got to get over these little things.
That actually leads to the core point or question, I guess, is it seems that as you justsaid, like the largest protests, seems to be all people are in agreement or want to come
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to a constructive solution, which keeps as many people can't keep everyone happy all thetime, of course, but more the merrier, so to speak.
So.
This is what has fascinated me as I've spoken to more Kiwis over the last maybe 10 yearsthrough tourism is and again, comparing it to the political, I'm going to talk Canada.
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I want to get involved with the U.S.
in regards to First Nations issues, but what's happening in Canada or is happening issimilar to what's happened in Australia.
And they're still struggling to find.
solutions are still issues.
I'm not saying New Zealand's perfect by any means that respect.
But it seems New Zealand is so far ahead when it comes to this cultural immersion of theMaori and the modern day society again, very loose term there.
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There's so much pride from both Maori and I'm going to use the word European again as ageneral sweeping statement there.
In either sides, past and history, it's been embraced.
the name of the country has officially been renamed to, I always mispronounce this,Ayutero New Zealand.
Is that correct?
Do I pronounce that correctly?
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Oh, good.
So Ayutero is the official name now.
So it's the Māori plus the colonial European name as well.
And again, there's so much pride.
Now most North Americans will
know or have seen the Maori pride and stroke in turn now the New Zealand pride through theHaka, which is usually seen in rugby, which is like hockey to a Canadian or NFL to an
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American.
It's it's a it's almost religion in New Zealand.
And of course, the other and I mentioned this to Sean when we were getting ready for thisinterview.
And this might have been in protest of the treaty in Parliament.
This made the rounds here in North America of a Maori politician doing a haka in protest,think.
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Was it over the Treaty of Waitanga?
Yes, yes, it was over the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Yeah.
they're the sort of, again, I don't want to use cliche because these hackers mean a lot tothe Maori population and New Zealand population in general.
But that's what most North Americans see.
speaking to Kiwis, it's more than that.
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It's acceptance, pride, particularly from the Europeans in the Maori culture, which istheir culture now.
can you, again, I'm an outsider making these observations.
Can you tell me if I'm on the mark, near the mark?
far from the market in that respect or in that option.
on the map.
Definitely on the map.
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And it's like you say, nothing's perfect, but it has a lot to do with, you know, we are asmall island.
You know, if you're going to get on with your neighbor, you just sort of got to get on.
Also, Māori make up close to 20 % of the population.
And again, there's a higher propensity in the North Island and parts of the North Island.
(39:22):
But there's this, I think more than anything, there's a realization and an openness byMāori for Pākehā or Tauiwi, non-Māori, to connect with and take up the language and the
(39:43):
culture.
it's the perspective as well.
That's really cool.
But the...
It's what makes us unique.
whether you have whakapapa Māori, you have direct Māori genealogy or not, if you're bornhere or you've migrated here, the essence of the Māori, the life force, the essence of
(40:18):
this country is Māori.
and it's there for everyone to pick up.
The hardest course, like the most in-demand, like whether it's night course or universitycourse or in school, the most in-demand course at the moment is Te Reo Māori, is the Māori
(40:44):
language.
You cannot, yeah, it's really hard to get a spot in a class.
There is just such, and I'd say a large proportion of that are non-Maori.
And whether they're just for their own curiosity or passion or sense of community, orwhether they're doing it for work or whether they're doing it to open up new horizons,
(41:16):
learning the Maori language is hot right now.
Do New Zealand moving towards a bilingual situation like Canada is?
French, English?
Do you think MAUTI will become an official as in using government documentation?
Or probably already is, I'm sure, in some instances.
(41:37):
Yeah, so there's three official languages, English, Te Reo Māori and New Zealand SignLanguage.
But it's an official language and there's...
So even part of that whole attempt to sort of dilute Te Tiriti into the principles, youknow, this new treaty principles thing, there is a move from some of those same people
(42:06):
to...
revert to like English only names.
And it's just, it's, so against the Like they, I don't know why they're even botheringlike the tide on, on that old outlook on, on the world has gone.
It's passed and everyone coming through, all these new ones coming through, they, theyfeel it, they love it, they, it's just part of their identity, whether they're
(42:37):
again, whether they have Māori bloodlines or not.
And I was just going to, was talking to you earlier about, you know, my kids, so my wifeis a fluent Māori speaker.
My kids, they're in a, you know, we have mainstream schooling, they're in the KaupapaMāori stream.
(42:58):
So, you know, their first language is Te Reo Māori, mine's not.
My first language is English, but I'm learning.
And it was so that's five out of six in my household.
You know, that's pretty cool.
Yeah.
And there's it is.
That's the best part of living in Aotearoa, New Zealand right now is just there is a arealization amongst, I'd say, most people to say, you know, this is part of who I am,
(43:30):
whether I'm of Maori descent or not, if I'm of this land.
born here, migrated here.
This is something that I can bring into myself that gives me a unique outlook on the worldand also connects me to a people and a culture that's really special.
(43:54):
Yeah, yeah, I'm very proud to see that in Australia, we finally started to be proud of thehistory before colonialization, you know, and the acceptance and respect towards the
Aboriginal peoples.
I'm seeing it here in Canada, too, with, you know, acknowledgement of lands and that typeof thing.
(44:15):
But I'm still blown away by how far not that's not the right term.
how much New Zealand, modern New Zealanders embrace this.
So that was my other question.
Why do you think the average Kiwi, be they Maori, be they European, have embraced this sotoo hard?
it hasn't come out of nowhere, I know that.
(44:36):
But it just seems, as you mentioned, it's, this is the way now and pushing back against itis the old way.
But it just seems to be so much more embrace.
by New Zealand over the last, let's say 20 years, just for the sake of conversation.
Is there a reason or is it just the growth of the country?
I'd say a big part of that is the generosity of Tiwi Māori, of Māori people to make thatavailable, make that connection to culture and language and customs.
(45:12):
And by holding onto it ourselves, people just, you
Again, we're on a small island.
It's right there.
It's right in front of them.
And they can either be part of it or not.
And it just seems like most people are.
(45:33):
You know, there's even separate from that, if you look at how people approach, you know,the environment nowadays is.
is different to how was 20, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.
it's all part of that same sort of realisation that, you know, and especially from a Māoriperspective, we are connected, you know, like we're connected to, we're not disconnected
(46:03):
from the natural environment.
And so that I know that from, you know, you know, the
young people, know, the young generations coming through that environmental awareness isprobably an important part of the journey into realizing that there is another
(46:28):
perspective, the te ao Māori perspective, you know, the Māori worldview.
And so it just seems to go hand in hand.
Yeah, it's as a a neighbor, I mean, Canada, but like I'm still consider myself anAustralian as a neighbor.
It's wonderful to see how it's been embraced and how it's positive.
(46:49):
was, you know, on the most part positive for everyone involved.
It's it's something the country should be very, very proud of, which I believe.
you are speaking to yourself and other Kiwis that have been over visiting us here inCanada.
So getting back to the tourism aspect of it.
So hopefully this conversation has inspired people, one, about New Zealand, but two,really when they get there to get down deep and try and get an understanding of what we've
(47:14):
discussed today.
And of course, in particular, and the Maori culture.
So from your point of view, in your professional capacity at Tupia, can you tell me what
a visitor to New Zealand can experience in respect to the Māori culture.
Mm hmm.
Well, it begins or like if you're if you're boarding a New Zealand flight, you know, itbegins in that moment because you're greeted with a big kia ora, you know, our greeting of
(47:42):
we use it for everything.
It's not just hello.
We literally say kia ora for everything and it because it literally means to be well, youknow, I'm wishing you wellness.
yeah, on the plane, you know, most
visitors from North America will land in Auckland.
(48:03):
so there's the touch points as you arrive with the whakairo, with the carvings that as youenter the airport and there's acknowledgements playing over the speaker system.
But again, that's a really beautiful touch point.
(48:27):
The critical thing I will say is, you know, speak to the team at GoWay because they havereally in-depth knowledge of the vast array of experiences and opportunities for people
to, you know, the people to learn about the culture.
(48:51):
For us here in Wuroturu and for us here at Te Puea, you know, we have really
We've made some really fundamental changes to how we host our manuhuri, host our visitors.
And a big part of that was going through COVID.
We have fewer people.
(49:12):
We have a much more controlled flow to give people time and space to give our guides achance to really impart and share their own personal stories,
know, the stories of this, like literally this incredible natural environment with geysersand fume rolls and mud pools and the culture as well.
(49:37):
It's, you need time and space.
And so that's actually been a really positive thing, you know, especially in the last sortof two years.
And I believe you have a claim that you have a restaurant, which is the only oneoverlooking a geothermal geyser.
Is that correct?
Yeah, absolutely.
we have an incredible restaurant, actually, Pataka Kaizer restaurant.
(50:01):
it was designed, it was, finished building it, I think maybe a year before everyone wentinto lockdown.
And it was, it is literally the only restaurant in the world that overlooks an activekaizer terrace.
And Pōhutū, like I mentioned before, our kaizer here, it is the largest naturallyoccurring kaizer in the southern hemisphere.
(50:26):
Anywhere up to...
Are you guys...
You're in metres here in Canada?
We have a US audience, so thank you for the know it.
It's 30 meters or 100 feet into the year.
it's just, really is, if you're here on site, if you're at the restaurant or on yourguided tour, what I love about it is you actually, feel it before you hear it, before you
(50:56):
see it.
It's just such an incredible natural phenomena.
Every day I go, my gosh, I think that's the best eruption I've ever seen.
How often does it because like here in the US you've got old faithful which goes off everyI don't know how but you know it's on a time schedule most does this guys that go off on a
regular basis?
(51:18):
It's naturally occurring.
So there are natural elements at play, but it's generally every sort of hour and 30 hourand 45 minutes.
But when it does erupt, how it's different from old faith form is it's not just a singleeruption.
It can continue erupting for anywhere.
I've seen it go for longer than half an hour.
(51:40):
I think on average, it's about 10, 15 minutes.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Okay.
So again, if someone's visiting, having lunch there or dinner, whatever it may be, it'snot a hit and miss.
There's again, it's nature.
Nothing's guaranteed of course, but 99 % of the time you'll get to see that eruption andit's well at length too.
Cool.
Okay.
(52:01):
Okay.
Well, Sean, we got to wrap it up for the sake of time here.
I'd really like to thank you for your time.
I really respect.
Again,
your honesty and just how open you are about the questions I posed to you.
As I said earlier, personally, speaking for myself here, I'm mildly impressed in NewZealand and how it's embraced its first nations people, Maori and how it's, as I said, in
(52:24):
our little introduction, how it's intertwined into modern day New Zealand society.
It's something I think other countries could learn from it.
It sounds like they are.
They're coming down to visit you in your school to see how you are keeping alive thoseoriginal skills.
histories, the fact that it's all oral is amazing, though I'm sure you're writing stuffdown these days just to be safe and back it up.
(52:47):
So again, yeah, I'd like to really thank you for your time and your information.
Is there anything else you would like to leave our listening audience with before we saygoodbye?
No, just no mai harawai.
Well, you know, come on down.
It is a, you know, we can't wait to, like, we really enjoy hosting, especially guests fromNorth America.
(53:08):
is, I think there's a natural level of familiarity, but also curiosity that, you know,leads to good conversation.
You know, all of our experiences here, at least at Te Pua, are guided.
And so there is an opportunity to not only sort of hear the stories, hear the narrative,see and engage with our students and our guides, but it's that there's that opportunity
(53:37):
just to ask questions as well.
And we want people to sort of at least leave here, realizing that there is a different wayto view the world.
And if we can contribute to
to people having that moment.
That's what we're looking for at least.
(53:59):
Thank you, Don.
Thank you and the team from GoBay.
Our pleasure, buddy.
Thank you again.
Thank you very much for your time.
was very, very enlightening.
And thank you, everyone out there, for listening in today.
We will talk to you soon.
Kia ora, kakite.
(54:28):
you
you
New Zealand, that wee little island, or actually islands across the Tasman Sea fromAustralia, has long been a sought after destination for globetrotters.
It offers amazing vistas from alp-like mountains in the south to the famed geothermals ofRotorua in the north.
(00:22):
wine, cuisine, adventure, relaxation and welcoming people.
New Zealand has it all.
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaay, and welcome to the GoaayPro Travel TalePodcast.
(00:50):
and gravel often.
New Zealand has it all.
The country like Australia from where I hail was founded in modern times by the expandingBritish Empire.
Our two countries have fought side by side from the Boer War to the Afghan War as theAnzacs, Australian New Zealand Army Corps.
(01:14):
We have common interests in sport, politics, lifestyles and views most of the times.
While they are two very different countries, we also share many similarities.
One other shared experience is the interactions and dealing with the original inhabitantsof each of the respective countries.
And these experiences are echoed with the First Nations of Canada and the US.
(01:37):
But whereas other countries are still learning and attempting to address past wrongs andtrying to assimilate ancient cultures into modern day societies, New Zealand, at least
from the outside, has seen the Māori, the original inhabitants of the islands of the LongWhite Cloud and their culture
become an integral part of modern day New Zealand and all its peoples.
(01:58):
Today we're gonna talk about New Zealand, but more importantly, we're gonna delve intothe, well actually before I say that, let me introduce our guest, it's Sean Marsh, who is
the general manager, sales and marketing at Debuya, which is located in Rotorua.
So welcome Sean, thank you for your time today.
Kilda Don, nice to meet you.
(02:19):
Yeah, thank you very much.
And as I just mentioned, Sean is coming to us live from New Zealand Rotorua.
So Sean, what we're going to talk about today is about the about the Maori culture andwhat I was going to ask before I of redirected my introduction there.
Here in Canada and North America, the indigenous population referred to as First Nations.
(02:43):
Is there a particular descriptive for the Maori other than or is it just the Maoripeoples?
Yeah, kia ora anō, kia ora, tēnā ra tātou kato, kia ora everybody.
Yeah, it would be, I mean, nowadays, we would say te ao Māori, the Māori world, or wewould say te iwi Māori being like the Māori tribes or the Māori nation, or Māori is fine.
(03:16):
And then also in the Māori language, we refer to ourselves as tangata whenua or people ofthe land.
yeah, there's a few different ways, yeah, Māori is fine.
Te ao Māori, the Māori world, or Tiwi Māori, the Māori tribes, the Māori nation.
Okay, so when you get into the origins of the Māori, and I'll just use that expression,the Māori, in a moment, but let's get into the origins of So Shaun, you are of Māori
(03:47):
descent, we just discussed that off air.
As I mentioned, you are General Manager Sales and Marketing of Te Puyhau.
Can you give us a bit of background on yourself in regards to how you got into tourism andin particular into Te Puyhau?
Ka pai, ka pai.
Yes, so into tourism, probably sort of almost 30 years ago, almost by accident, I was sortof working in, was a crane operator, forklift operator and bouncer.
(04:16):
And I was on a date with my now wife, having fish and chips on the beach.
And I just saw this ad in the paper and it said,
Do you like meeting people?
you like, you know, all these things about the tourism industry?
I said, they're looking at it going, oh, yeah, actually, I do like all those things,travel.
And it sort of it was advertising a like a tourism course of study.
(04:42):
And I'd been at uni and I was just working all these sort of manual jobs, just doingnothing.
And then and then, yeah, just got into the course.
got into the industry working in the local visitor centers, then moved into destinationmarketing, and then have been at Te Puea for 14 years in various roles in year now GM,
(05:09):
sales and marketing.
Okay, so what other than I guess maybe being headhunter otherwise, what drew you to yourrole or all the company of Te Puea?
Te Pūia, really easy.
It's the kaupapa or the purpose of the organization.
we are a really unique entity in that, we are a visitor attraction.
(05:34):
It's a place that people can come to.
We have this incredible natural phenomenon known as Pōhutū geyser and 60 hectares ofnative forest.
And just it's a geothermal wonderland.
As part of that attraction, we also have a school on site, or a wānanga, called the NewZealand Māori Arts and Crafts Institute.
(06:00):
And essentially the way that our model has worked for the last 60 years is that tourismunderpins cultural perpetuation.
So we have these incredible schools with masters, tutors and students.
Everything is self-funded by our organisation.
(06:20):
into those Wānā.
We don't receive government funding, but we're working on a project at the moment to tryand facilitate some philanthropic support.
But it was what drew me here was the fact that tourism, which I'm passionate about,underpinned cultural perpetuation in these incredible art forms and just the traditional
(06:47):
pillars of our culture.
So that was really simple.
So when you say schools, are you talking what most people would think of any like youngchildren in a classroom setting or are you talking more schools about the arts and crafts
of the Maori or are you talking schools of not reintroduction of but reinforcement of theMaori culture?
(07:11):
Almost the last two things there.
So it's a tertiary level degree.
So it's post high school.
Alright, so it is a truly functioning school as in you can you sit down for your actualamount of years and come out with a degree of some description.
Yes, yeah.
So we have a, for example, we have wood carving, traditional like weaving with naturalfibers, and then the stone and bone carving that's with like New Zealand Pounamu, the
(07:40):
green stone or whalebone, et cetera.
Essentially the students apply from all over the country.
We only accept a maximum of five per school.
There are three schools.
And then it's a very intense course of study for either two or three years.
(08:03):
The three year wood carving course is the equivalent to receiving a master's degree.
And we have our own Act of Parliament.
So Te Puea New Zealand Māori Arts and Crafts Institute, we have our own Act of Parliament,and that confers us with the, gives us the responsibility to not only protect
(08:26):
these traditional forms of art and craft, but to also perpetuate them into the futurethrough study.
And then it gives us, we have the power to confer qualifications.
it's a very cool model.
And we actually have First Nations groups from North America, from all over the world comeand visit us and really study our model.
(08:51):
I have a group coming up from Canada next week actually that are
that are coming here to just have a really close up look at what we do and how we do it.
So the schools have been in operation for how long?
On this site in this current form for 60 years.
And then, you know, our Act of Parliament dates back to 1926.
(09:16):
So coming up on the 100 year anniversary of our Act of Parliament.
And then there were a couple of other versions of the school in different locations inRotorua prior to 1963.
But it was...
they were interrupted by the wars, you know, first of all, second of all, the GreatDepression.
(09:38):
So we sort of go back to the starting point being here on this site, 60 years.
Okay, now you mentioned there are only five spots per school, per class.
Why is that?
As in, why is it such a small number?
Because it sounds like it's been very successful.
You've got groups from other countries coming in to study it.
Why not?
(09:59):
Or how come you haven't opened it up to broader numbers?
We've done all of that in the past, sort of trial different levels of, know, especiallythe numbers of students.
And what we've hit on in terms of this number of students is we have a very low ratio ofteaching staff and masters to students.
(10:24):
It's a really intense course of study because it's, if you go back to,
especially in the wood carving, that was, you know, prior to the arrival of Europeans andthe written form, you know, we retained our knowledge through
(10:47):
through song, through memorization, oral traditions, but also through carving.
And so it's a critical, it's a really intense course of study.
So the lower ratio means that the students that do graduate, know, we want these youngmen, these young people to come from the areas
(11:16):
stay with us for that minimum of three years and then return home with that knowledge andstart teaching.
yeah, that's sort of that ratio seems to be the number that works.
Right, so I guess it's like you're looking at a quality over quantity vibe.
okay.
A couple of questions on that.
So how does someone qualify for this?
(11:38):
Do you need to be of Māori descent to be admitted to the school?
And you did mention, again, it just have been a passing statement.
You said young men.
Is it only men or is it open to male and female?
So for the wood carving at the moment, it's only men, and that's the tradition of thisarea.
And there are other carving schools around the country that cater to men and women.
(12:00):
The tradition of this particular area is for the wood carving, it's only men, but for ourother two schools, it's open to men and women.
Okay.
And again, do you need to be of, do you need to have be of Maori descent to be admitted tothe school or is it open to all New Zealanders?
(12:22):
It needs to be of Māori descent.
There's not a blood quantum applied at all, all.
There is a process in Māori culture where you, when you are formally introducing yourselfon the marae, it's called a pepeha, or a formal introduction, and it describes your line
(12:47):
of descent from...
the canoe that your ancestors arrived on from Eastern Polynesia, the mountains and therivers, the other geographical features that are sacred to your tribal region, to your
people, and the ancestral house that you descend from, and then your actual ancestors.
So if you can stand on the marae and deliver your pepeha in te reo Māori in the Māorilanguage, then that's all we need.
(13:17):
That's all we need to know.
Okay, so that that line, did you mention like seems to have four or five pillars to it?
How was that traced?
Is that something that's just been passed down orally?
is it because you mention before there was no written records per se.
So is that something that is just passed down orally through the to the the communities?
(13:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And through families and just even in my own experience, know, my own life, just going tobed and then sort of getting woken up by mum and down to the kitchen table and just sit
there and recite whakapapa, recite genealogy or just the families that we're connected toand why.
(14:07):
tribes that we can just just just family history, tribal history, and then just makingsure that you stay connected and you stay close to those, know, to your marae.
That's amazing.
OK.
So on that note, the origins of the the Maori in New Zealand, can give us a like a I knowit's complicated, but you know, sort of a brief overview of how New Zealand how New
(14:36):
Zealand became populated and, you know, there's a capsule history, I guess.
Basically, we all arrived here by boat, whether it was the Endeavour and Cook and hismates or our ancestors.
So our immediate line of ancestry takes us back to Eastern Polynesia.
(14:58):
So the groups around Tahiti, the Cook Islands, especially, that is where the bulk of thewaka or the voyaging canoe.
So when we say canoe,
or waka that is any mode of transport.
When we're thinking, you know, those ancient navigators and colonization, you know,bringing people from another land into Aotearoa in New Zealand.
(15:26):
The waka hōrua or the double hull voyaging canoes, you might be familiar of the movieMoana.
You know, it's that style.
So our immediate ancestry takes us back to
Eastern Polynesia, but we're related to Rapa Nui.
(15:46):
All of the islands of Polynesia, the easternmost corners of Rapa Nui, the Macasis, Hawaiiin the north, Samoa, Tonga, and all the other sort small island groups.
Yeah, I was in the cooks a years ago and yes, right.
Yeah.
(16:06):
No, connected by genealogy, language, custom.
Yeah, so our immediate ancestry is Eastern Polynesia and arriving on voyaging canoes.
Right.
When roughly did the peoples arrive into New Zealand?
Do you know that date?
Ish?
It's ish.
(16:28):
It's anywhere from sort of 600 to 2000 years ago.
It's waves of...
Because initially the initial explorers, it wasn't necessarily for colonization.
They were seeking different resources, especially the...
(16:49):
Like all of the earliest archaeological sites around the country are adjacent to...
quarries of different types of rock.
So if you imagine, you know, the culture, the people, it's a Stone Age culture, you know,one of the most important resources is different types of rock for different purposes.
(17:14):
And so all of those earlier sites are related to quarry and rock.
And especially in New Zealand down in the South Island, the
or the greenstone, you know, that had properties that made it extremely sought after anduseful.
(17:38):
And then subsequently waves of arrivals for people seeking new land to reside in.
My understanding in modern day is that the bulk of the Māori culture and peoples are inthe North Island and there's very few in the South.
Is that true?
(18:00):
Yes, it's warmer.
But not to say that the South Island wasn't populated, but there was probably smaller,lower levels of population, but they occupied, you know, and especially in terms of
following the seasons, you know, for food, especially, and for weather.
(18:24):
Communities would be up in the high country during summer.
for harvesting different types of foods.
And then when it's too cold, back down to the coast.
And not so much of that nomadic movement in the North Island because there's a higherpopulation and you don't have the same sort of degree of temperature change.
(18:52):
But yeah, the proportion, there's a high proportion of Māori population in the North.
So when a modern day traveller is heading to New Zealand, North Ireland is where theywould probably experience the Māori culture more than they would in the South.
Yes and no.
mean, there are some incredible opportunities to experience Māori storytelling or Māoritourism experiences in the South.
(19:24):
I'm thinking there's a really cool outrigger canoe experience in the top of the South, theAble Tasman, the whale watching in Kaikōura, and lots of
Like the further south you go, there's some incredible locations for like rock art, youand you can take guided tours into those caves and stuff.
(19:51):
But there is a higher proportion of opportunity in the north, and especially in a townlike Rotorua.
This is what sort of many consider the birthplace of tourism in New Zealand, and we'reconnected to those earliest sort of beginnings of tourism.
So yeah, it's probably a greater opportunity, but the stories all over the country, all ofthem are beautiful, all of them are real, you know, and really engaging.
(20:24):
So it just depends how much time people have, what the next, you know, what are the thingsthat they like to do.
yes, opportunities all over the country.
And when I was growing up in school, taught about Australian history, we're taught thatCaptain Cook, you mentioned before in the Endeavour, he was the man who discovered
Australia, which was not true at all.
(20:46):
He stumbled across, not stumbled across it.
He landed in Botany Bay and that was pretty much it.
Spent some time on the Great Barrier Reef area and then sailed on.
It had been spotted and partly mapped by the Dutch before.
But what I didn't know growing up, which I've since learned, because I love my history, isthat Captain Cook, now,
Again, this I'm asking this question of you.
(21:07):
don't think we'll see the first European to discover New Zealand.
I know he definitely mapped that both north and south.
I spent more time around New Zealand than he did probably anywhere else in the Pacific.
Yeah.
But was he the first European to discover New Zealand or had other Europeans before him?
Yeah, first European to land.
So Tasman, April Tasman, who, know, equally on that same journey out of Indonesia, downinto the Indian Ocean and sort of because everybody's looking for that shortcut to India,
(21:41):
you know, out of Europe.
And so, you know, he's cruising along the 40 somethings parallel.
I can't remember which 45th.
And when they hit the west, not hit, but when they arrived at the west coast of the SouthIsland and saw the Southern Alps, they were like, the Andes, Peru, they're a little bit
(22:03):
shorter than what I thought they were going to be.
But yes, we've we've arrived.
And, you know, there's some incredible history there in terms of, you if you look at thetop of the South Island and the national park that now bears his name, Able Tasman.
National Park.
That was the first engagement with te ao Māori and Europeans, but Tasman never landed.
(22:32):
he, there was a bit of an incident, a of a moment, and so he never actually landed.
The closest, after he left here, he ended up in Tonga.
Cook was the first European explorer to actually land.
(22:53):
Right.
So Cook went down, I he went down a few times, actually, he mapped in great detail, Northand South Island and then sailed on from the Australian side of things.
You again, he sort of made note of Botany Bay or landed at Botany Bay, mode made note ofwhat is now Sydney, Sydney Harbour.
(23:13):
So I know my history.
Then the firstly came to Australia, etc.
When did New Zealand become colonized by Europeans that I don't know?
It's very much connected to the to the Australia story, you know, so in terms of thatcolonial history, was New Zealand was regarded by the British as part of New South Wales.
(23:38):
So so initially it was treated as.
Yeah, just a just a part of New South Wales, essentially.
The and then it wasn't until later when they were.
you know, sort of more people arriving and a greater need to have, I guess, someone incountry, and that was the British resident, James Busby, was located up in North, up at
(24:09):
Waitangi Bay of Islands.
And then...
There was a, it's really interesting, I'm not a historian, I love history, it's right fromthe get go, were, even Cook had a Tahitian Tohungo priest navigator on the Endeavour when
(24:34):
he arrived into Aotearoa, and then straight away, there were Māori that were...
hopping onto European boats, going to Australia, going to England, going to America, andcoming back going, yeah, coming back going, wow, guys, there's like a whole world out
there that we didn't know about.
(24:55):
And so there was a, you know, there was a political realization that...
the different regions, different iwi, the different tribes needed to.
(25:16):
to be aware of this world that was arriving.
The other interesting aspect is obviously, as all the different European colonial powersare cruising around the Pacific, you've got the Germans, got the Russians, Americans,
(25:42):
British, French, primarily Spanish were there obviously earlier than everyone.
But from the British perspective, there was very much a need to...
probably establish more of an independent approach to New Zealand and sort of start tolock it down from the French.
(26:11):
And so that's when you have things being established like He Whakaputana, the Declarationof Independence of the Confederate tribes of Aotearoa New Zealand.
That was very much like a blocking maneuver to sort of say to the French, hey, these guysare their own sovereign nation.
(26:33):
And that was in 1835.
And then that was followed by Te Tiriti or Waitangi in 1840.
Okay, we'll touch on that tree in a moment.
So as a comparison, when the British came to Australia, obviously the, you know, the FirstNation, the indigenous population, the Aboriginals were there had been for thousands,
(26:55):
hundreds of thousands of years.
And they got hit over the head literally and metaphorically with, you know, with themodern world, the Aborigines for all intents and purposes were Stone Age to a degree,
they're still the oldest living peoples in the world.
And it was a harsh introduction.
despite goodwill and not so goodwill attempts, there's been conflict and tension andstress ever since the first day.
(27:20):
And it's grown recently in Australia with questions over January 26 being Australia Day.
I don't know enough about how the interaction was between the colonial and the Maoripeople.
Was it similar in that the colonial powers
(27:40):
basically came in with a heavy hand in either directly or indirectly, intentionally orunintentionally.
Is it a similar history in that respect between the Aboriginals and the Maori?
just again, just from my own understanding of things, the I'd say it was it changed, youknow, so very much at the beginning, there was a there really was a sense of not so much
(28:13):
partnership, but more reliance, you know, like Māori were that the land was sort of smallenough that it's
close enough.
What am I saying?
You know, you don't want to start something up with these guys over here because just overthe hill, there's another group of guys that are probably related that can probably come
(28:33):
and lend a hand.
And it was very much around striking up relationships and partnerships for trade.
So food to feed the different settlements.
you know, Māori were exporting food to Sydney in great quantities, owned schooners and,you know, coastal trading vessels that they were literally trading directly with the major
(29:06):
populations in Auckland and Sydney.
And were very entrepreneurial, you know.
And then that probably changed, you know, after that first generation of contact to
acquisition, then the mood very much changed to acquiring land and then disestablishingtribal communities to essentially acquire land.
(29:37):
And then that's where the conflict began.
Right.
But all different iwi have actually different, very different experiences.
Obviously, you're dealing with individuals and in some cases, sort of representatives ofthe Crown.
But each iwi have their own sort of experience based on resources of land or their ownparticular circumstances.
(30:08):
Right.
And again, this is not meant to be a precise history lesson.
This is a general a generalized conversation.
Yeah, exactly.
Two tourism people talking about that.
So.
There was a very famous treaty you mentioned, Waitangi Treaty.
Can you explain what that was or what it is?
(30:30):
Because I understand it's being renegotiated now or this talk of being renegotiated.
There's an attempt.
don't think they'll be successful, but there's an attempt.
It's treated as the foundation document of the country.
The critical thing about Te Tiriti o Waitangi is it's on the back of that Declaration ofIndependence.
(31:00):
Who's declaration of independence, the Maori or New Zealand from the British crown?
The Maori.
Yeah, of the money just saying this is who we are with the sovereign power and that wasreceived and acknowledged by the British Crown.
And the.
(31:24):
that say, hang on, I'm just trying to get my thoughts in order.
So yeah, so the critical thing that the British wanted to do was to basically set up alegal process by which they could purchase land.
And they wanted to sort of formalize that whole process.
(31:47):
There are two different versions of the treaty.
There's a version in English that most people are familiar with.
And then there's the version in Te Reo Māori, the Māori language, which the vast majorityof the chiefs read, understood, and signed.
(32:07):
There are just over 500 rangatira or chiefs that sign Te Tiriti.
I think there were 39 that signed the English, and some of them were literally like,
Come on, this is taking too long.
I'll just sign that version.
Are you telling me it's the same thing?
Yeah.
Okay, I'll go sign that one.
(32:28):
But the vast majority, you know, they were, you know, they were very astute leaders.
And, you know, and in their minds, they had guarantees of their own sovereignty and...
(32:50):
you know, over their people and their lands and taonga or their treasures, but that thegovernorship of the country, essentially the running of the government would be undertaken
by the government.
And that was the crown at that stage.
(33:13):
yeah, a lot of...
I'm just trying to get my thoughts together, it's...
You know, since about sort of the the 60s and 70s, it really was something that that Māoriwere incredibly actively trying to uplift and bring back into the political consciousness
(33:42):
because it had been ignored and breached and ignored and breached.
And that's what sort of set the platform for the land wars between the British and Māori.
And then, you know, literally over decades and generations, lots of people, yeah, saying,hey, here's Te Tiriti, it is a thing.
(34:05):
It means this.
And it gives us a framework by which we can coexist very happily and thrive as a country.
it's all that whole framework, that whole foundation is actually embedded here in TeTiriti.
I would say, again, I'm not an expert, I would say most people nowadays are aware of theTe Tiriti and sort of it does give us a really positive framework for the future of the
(34:42):
country.
And then there's also a smaller group of people, a much smaller group of people who don'twant to give up.
any sense of control or shared governance, anything like that.
it's point of tension.
(35:08):
had the recent Hikoi Motutiriti, there were protests all up and down the country that wereactually incredibly positive, incredibly uplifting, but very
very real.
(35:29):
know, nearly anywhere from 50 to 100,000 people marched on Parliament, you know, and in aNew Zealand population context, that's the biggest protest in our history.
But it was incredibly positive and nonviolent and, you know, all based around, you know,constructive solutions.
(35:53):
we find a way forward using Teterity as our framework.
So I'm incredibly optimistic.
We're good.
We've just got to get over these little things.
That actually leads to the core point or question, I guess, is it seems that as you justsaid, like the largest protests, seems to be all people are in agreement or want to come
(36:18):
to a constructive solution, which keeps as many people can't keep everyone happy all thetime, of course, but more the merrier, so to speak.
So.
This is what has fascinated me as I've spoken to more Kiwis over the last maybe 10 yearsthrough tourism is and again, comparing it to the political, I'm going to talk Canada.
(36:40):
I want to get involved with the U.S.
in regards to First Nations issues, but what's happening in Canada or is happening issimilar to what's happened in Australia.
And they're still struggling to find.
solutions are still issues.
I'm not saying New Zealand's perfect by any means that respect.
But it seems New Zealand is so far ahead when it comes to this cultural immersion of theMaori and the modern day society again, very loose term there.
(37:05):
There's so much pride from both Maori and I'm going to use the word European again as ageneral sweeping statement there.
In either sides, past and history, it's been embraced.
the name of the country has officially been renamed to, I always mispronounce this,Ayutero New Zealand.
Is that correct?
Do I pronounce that correctly?
(37:26):
Oh, good.
So Ayutero is the official name now.
So it's the Māori plus the colonial European name as well.
And again, there's so much pride.
Now most North Americans will
know or have seen the Maori pride and stroke in turn now the New Zealand pride through theHaka, which is usually seen in rugby, which is like hockey to a Canadian or NFL to an
(37:53):
American.
It's it's a it's almost religion in New Zealand.
And of course, the other and I mentioned this to Sean when we were getting ready for thisinterview.
And this might have been in protest of the treaty in Parliament.
This made the rounds here in North America of a Maori politician doing a haka in protest,think.
(38:14):
Was it over the Treaty of Waitanga?
Yes, yes, it was over the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Yeah.
they're the sort of, again, I don't want to use cliche because these hackers mean a lot tothe Maori population and New Zealand population in general.
But that's what most North Americans see.
speaking to Kiwis, it's more than that.
(38:35):
It's acceptance, pride, particularly from the Europeans in the Maori culture, which istheir culture now.
can you, again, I'm an outsider making these observations.
Can you tell me if I'm on the mark, near the mark?
far from the market in that respect or in that option.
on the map.
Definitely on the map.
(38:55):
And it's like you say, nothing's perfect, but it has a lot to do with, you know, we are asmall island.
You know, if you're going to get on with your neighbor, you just sort of got to get on.
Also, Māori make up close to 20 % of the population.
And again, there's a higher propensity in the North Island and parts of the North Island.
(39:22):
But there's this, I think more than anything, there's a realization and an openness byMāori for Pākehā or Tauiwi, non-Māori, to connect with and take up the language and the
(39:43):
culture.
it's the perspective as well.
That's really cool.
But the...
It's what makes us unique.
whether you have whakapapa Māori, you have direct Māori genealogy or not, if you're bornhere or you've migrated here, the essence of the Māori, the life force, the essence of
(40:18):
this country is Māori.
and it's there for everyone to pick up.
The hardest course, like the most in-demand, like whether it's night course or universitycourse or in school, the most in-demand course at the moment is Te Reo Māori, is the Māori
(40:44):
language.
You cannot, yeah, it's really hard to get a spot in a class.
There is just such, and I'd say a large proportion of that are non-Maori.
And whether they're just for their own curiosity or passion or sense of community, orwhether they're doing it for work or whether they're doing it to open up new horizons,
(41:16):
learning the Maori language is hot right now.
Do New Zealand moving towards a bilingual situation like Canada is?
French, English?
Do you think MAUTI will become an official as in using government documentation?
Or probably already is, I'm sure, in some instances.
(41:37):
Yeah, so there's three official languages, English, Te Reo Māori and New Zealand SignLanguage.
But it's an official language and there's...
So even part of that whole attempt to sort of dilute Te Tiriti into the principles, youknow, this new treaty principles thing, there is a move from some of those same people
(42:06):
to...
revert to like English only names.
And it's just, it's, so against the Like they, I don't know why they're even botheringlike the tide on, on that old outlook on, on the world has gone.
It's passed and everyone coming through, all these new ones coming through, they, theyfeel it, they love it, they, it's just part of their identity, whether they're
(42:37):
again, whether they have Māori bloodlines or not.
And I was just going to, was talking to you earlier about, you know, my kids, so my wifeis a fluent Māori speaker.
My kids, they're in a, you know, we have mainstream schooling, they're in the KaupapaMāori stream.
(42:58):
So, you know, their first language is Te Reo Māori, mine's not.
My first language is English, but I'm learning.
And it was so that's five out of six in my household.
You know, that's pretty cool.
Yeah.
And there's it is.
That's the best part of living in Aotearoa, New Zealand right now is just there is a arealization amongst, I'd say, most people to say, you know, this is part of who I am,
(43:30):
whether I'm of Maori descent or not, if I'm of this land.
born here, migrated here.
This is something that I can bring into myself that gives me a unique outlook on the worldand also connects me to a people and a culture that's really special.
(43:54):
Yeah, yeah, I'm very proud to see that in Australia, we finally started to be proud of thehistory before colonialization, you know, and the acceptance and respect towards the
Aboriginal peoples.
I'm seeing it here in Canada, too, with, you know, acknowledgement of lands and that typeof thing.
(44:15):
But I'm still blown away by how far not that's not the right term.
how much New Zealand, modern New Zealanders embrace this.
So that was my other question.
Why do you think the average Kiwi, be they Maori, be they European, have embraced this sotoo hard?
it hasn't come out of nowhere, I know that.
(44:36):
But it just seems, as you mentioned, it's, this is the way now and pushing back against itis the old way.
But it just seems to be so much more embrace.
by New Zealand over the last, let's say 20 years, just for the sake of conversation.
Is there a reason or is it just the growth of the country?
I'd say a big part of that is the generosity of Tiwi Māori, of Māori people to make thatavailable, make that connection to culture and language and customs.
(45:12):
And by holding onto it ourselves, people just, you
Again, we're on a small island.
It's right there.
It's right in front of them.
And they can either be part of it or not.
And it just seems like most people are.
(45:33):
You know, there's even separate from that, if you look at how people approach, you know,the environment nowadays is.
is different to how was 20, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.
it's all part of that same sort of realisation that, you know, and especially from a Māoriperspective, we are connected, you know, like we're connected to, we're not disconnected
(46:03):
from the natural environment.
And so that I know that from, you know, you know, the
young people, know, the young generations coming through that environmental awareness isprobably an important part of the journey into realizing that there is another
(46:28):
perspective, the te ao Māori perspective, you know, the Māori worldview.
And so it just seems to go hand in hand.
Yeah, it's as a a neighbor, I mean, Canada, but like I'm still consider myself anAustralian as a neighbor.
It's wonderful to see how it's been embraced and how it's positive.
(46:49):
was, you know, on the most part positive for everyone involved.
It's it's something the country should be very, very proud of, which I believe.
you are speaking to yourself and other Kiwis that have been over visiting us here inCanada.
So getting back to the tourism aspect of it.
So hopefully this conversation has inspired people, one, about New Zealand, but two,really when they get there to get down deep and try and get an understanding of what we've
(47:14):
discussed today.
And of course, in particular, and the Maori culture.
So from your point of view, in your professional capacity at Tupia, can you tell me what
a visitor to New Zealand can experience in respect to the Māori culture.
Mm hmm.
Well, it begins or like if you're if you're boarding a New Zealand flight, you know, itbegins in that moment because you're greeted with a big kia ora, you know, our greeting of
(47:42):
we use it for everything.
It's not just hello.
We literally say kia ora for everything and it because it literally means to be well, youknow, I'm wishing you wellness.
yeah, on the plane, you know, most
visitors from North America will land in Auckland.
(48:03):
so there's the touch points as you arrive with the whakairo, with the carvings that as youenter the airport and there's acknowledgements playing over the speaker system.
But again, that's a really beautiful touch point.
(48:27):
The critical thing I will say is, you know, speak to the team at GoWay because they havereally in-depth knowledge of the vast array of experiences and opportunities for people
to, you know, the people to learn about the culture.
(48:51):
For us here in Wuroturu and for us here at Te Puea, you know, we have really
We've made some really fundamental changes to how we host our manuhuri, host our visitors.
And a big part of that was going through COVID.
We have fewer people.
(49:12):
We have a much more controlled flow to give people time and space to give our guides achance to really impart and share their own personal stories,
know, the stories of this, like literally this incredible natural environment with geysersand fume rolls and mud pools and the culture as well.
(49:37):
It's, you need time and space.
And so that's actually been a really positive thing, you know, especially in the last sortof two years.
And I believe you have a claim that you have a restaurant, which is the only oneoverlooking a geothermal geyser.
Is that correct?
Yeah, absolutely.
we have an incredible restaurant, actually, Pataka Kaizer restaurant.
(50:01):
it was designed, it was, finished building it, I think maybe a year before everyone wentinto lockdown.
And it was, it is literally the only restaurant in the world that overlooks an activekaizer terrace.
And Pōhutū, like I mentioned before, our kaizer here, it is the largest naturallyoccurring kaizer in the southern hemisphere.
(50:26):
Anywhere up to...
Are you guys...
You're in metres here in Canada?
We have a US audience, so thank you for the know it.
It's 30 meters or 100 feet into the year.
it's just, really is, if you're here on site, if you're at the restaurant or on yourguided tour, what I love about it is you actually, feel it before you hear it, before you
(50:56):
see it.
It's just such an incredible natural phenomena.
Every day I go, my gosh, I think that's the best eruption I've ever seen.
How often does it because like here in the US you've got old faithful which goes off everyI don't know how but you know it's on a time schedule most does this guys that go off on a
regular basis?
(51:18):
It's naturally occurring.
So there are natural elements at play, but it's generally every sort of hour and 30 hourand 45 minutes.
But when it does erupt, how it's different from old faith form is it's not just a singleeruption.
It can continue erupting for anywhere.
I've seen it go for longer than half an hour.
(51:40):
I think on average, it's about 10, 15 minutes.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Okay.
So again, if someone's visiting, having lunch there or dinner, whatever it may be, it'snot a hit and miss.
There's again, it's nature.
Nothing's guaranteed of course, but 99 % of the time you'll get to see that eruption andit's well at length too.
Cool.
Okay.
(52:01):
Okay.
Well, Sean, we got to wrap it up for the sake of time here.
I'd really like to thank you for your time.
I really respect.
Again,
your honesty and just how open you are about the questions I posed to you.
As I said earlier, personally, speaking for myself here, I'm mildly impressed in NewZealand and how it's embraced its first nations people, Maori and how it's, as I said, in
(52:24):
our little introduction, how it's intertwined into modern day New Zealand society.
It's something I think other countries could learn from it.
It sounds like they are.
They're coming down to visit you in your school to see how you are keeping alive thoseoriginal skills.
histories, the fact that it's all oral is amazing, though I'm sure you're writing stuffdown these days just to be safe and back it up.
(52:47):
So again, yeah, I'd like to really thank you for your time and your information.
Is there anything else you would like to leave our listening audience with before we saygoodbye?
No, just no mai harawai.
Well, you know, come on down.
It is a, you know, we can't wait to, like, we really enjoy hosting, especially guests fromNorth America.
(53:08):
is, I think there's a natural level of familiarity, but also curiosity that, you know,leads to good conversation.
You know, all of our experiences here, at least at Te Pua, are guided.
And so there is an opportunity to not only sort of hear the stories, hear the narrative,see and engage with our students and our guides, but it's that there's that opportunity
(53:37):
just to ask questions as well.
And we want people to sort of at least leave here, realizing that there is a different wayto view the world.
And if we can contribute to
to people having that moment.
That's what we're looking for at least.
(53:59):
Thank you, Don.
Thank you and the team from GoBay.
Our pleasure, buddy.
Thank you again.
Thank you very much for your time.
was very, very enlightening.
And thank you, everyone out there, for listening in today.
We will talk to you soon.
Kia ora, kakite.
(54:28):
you
you
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