November 11, 2025 • 61 mins
In this episode, Dr. Tiffany Ryan shares her profound journey through grief and healing after the loss of her son. She discusses her exploration of psychedelics as a therapeutic tool for trauma and PTSD. The conversation emphasizes the importance of community, integration, and the deep work required for healing. Dr. Ryan advocates for open discussions about mental health and the potential of psychedelics in transforming lives.
https://www.drtiffanyryan.org/
https://www.instagram.com/dr.tiffanyryan/
https://www.amazon.ca/Soul-Work-Field-Guide-Freedom/dp/1960892517
https://www.amazon.com/Noah-Grants-Hope-Transformation-Post-Lifequake/dp/1960892495
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Alright, hello health heads.
Welcome and thank you for checking in to this dose of the healthcare uprising.
I'm your producer in the back, Jeremy Carr, here with your host in the front row, HeatherPierce.
So what's on our agenda for today, Heather?
So today we're going to have Dr.
Tiffany Ryan on, um, she is sharing.
So yeah, this is kind of an interesting conversation, right?
(00:35):
So she's been, um, she's authored two books.
She is a, a doctor of social work.
She is a professor.
She has her yo massage clinic.
So she actually got, you know, certified in massage.
Um, and she also went through a very tragic and traumatic loss of her oldest son.
who died by suicide July of 2024.
(01:00):
she talks very, so most of the episode, we're really diving into her use of psychedelicsin her, her mental health, her trauma, her PTSD therapy and support through dealing with
the loss of her son.
And so that's really where we're going to spend most of the time is talking about the useof psychedelics, why they're so effective.
(01:24):
And really how they have essentially changed her entire life.
yeah
This might be one of the very rare occasions on this podcast where I know more about thesubject matter than you do going into it.
Oh, not may you do and did.
uh
My time to shine.
Yeah, it is.
Let's get into our conversation with Dr.
Tiffany Ryan.
(01:49):
Hi and welcome to the healthcare uprising podcast today we have Dr.
Tiffany Ryan with us on the show today welcome Tiffany Dr.
Tiffany Ryan.
ah
Have this conversation.
Yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about a few things today.
So which is why I didn't really say who you're with or an organization.
(02:09):
um I think really our our conversation today is going to be really unique um and also wantto mention that we know each other.
I was I was just sharing with.
I do I know a lot of people I like I like people, especially in health care.
So, um, yeah, we go back to what like 2015 ish right in there.
(02:34):
I think we figured out, um, I'll spare the rest of the audience, the details, just knowthat, um, we are, we were friends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So with that, let's jump right in.
So, um, we are, and I want to mention to a couple, we're going to talk about use ofpsychedelics for mental health, therapy, trauma.
(02:55):
We're going to talk about some of your personal journey.
through loss and trauma.
um Obviously you're a doctor as well.
You've written a couple of books.
So we're gonna cover some area today, I think.
And so with that, just introduce yourself, tell us kind of what has brought you to thismoment and any kind of background or personal stuff you wanna share to kind of set the
(03:19):
foundation here.
give some of my professional background because I do think it does play a role in how Iview psychedelics and how I've been using them myself.
But yeah, I have my bachelor's, master's and PhD in social work.
And I have largely done macro level social work running organizations and you know, stateprograms, as well as being a social work professor.
(03:47):
So I did that for a long time until
Well, I did two things at once.
I was still a social work professor and I started a company called Yo Massage here inPortland, Oregon.
um That was after I actually went to get my massage training and yoga teacher trainingafter I got my PhD and you know, been a professional in that world, which was a little
(04:13):
backwards for some people.
But um yeah, so I founded this company and we
have a modality and it's called yo massage where we combine restorative stretch,meditation and therapeutic touch.
So I have the kind of research, more clinical background in social work, but I also havethis kind of alternative health mindset and experience.
(04:41):
So I just kind of want to lay the foundation with that.
But yeah, I guess leading up to my psychedelic use, I um
My family moved to Portland and when was that?
We had just done some traveling.
We moved to Portland in 2018, I believe.
(05:03):
I enjoyed your social media.
Was it dessert?
Living on the boat?
Yeah.
yeah, we left Flagstaff and moved on to a sailboat for a year uh and then moved to CostaRica where I did my massage and yoga training and then came to Portland.
um yeah, but I we moved here and you know the kids went back into their normal life.
(05:28):
um Suburban, I mean kind of suburbia.
Portland's a little less suburbia than some places but um
And my son, my oldest son Noah was struggling with mental health.
em I don't think I knew the extent of it.
Well, I know I didn't know the extent of it, em but I would say, was it maybe five months?
(05:53):
So he died last summer.
And I would say five months before he passed, he...
asked me if he could use psychedelics, if he could do mushrooms.
And I knew nothing about it.
This was not my wheelhouse at all.
And I never used them myself.
(06:14):
And so, you know, I was like, can we start with something easier, you know, like alcoholor weed or like, you know, uh little did I know, I think that had already happened.
But I, you know, just didn't know.
But I bring that up because um we ended up putting him on antidepressants, Wellbutrin.
(06:38):
And that is what he used to take his life.
He overdosed on Wellbutrin.
Yes.
And I like two weeks prior, he had missed a few days of taking it and was saying he wasfeeling really bad.
He was worried about himself.
(06:58):
And, you know, I don't know how much you know about antidepressants and whatnot, but manyof them, you, if you miss a couple days, especially when you're a youth under 18, it
impacts you in such a way where it does increase suicidal.
and tendencies and and so this is
all new to me.
(07:20):
I've learned quite honestly, I've, I've learned so much about it just from you sharingyour journey.
since, uh, since Noah left us.
I just, I, I've been, thank you, honestly.
Like I feel, I think that's why I've like really loved engaging with your posts on social.
You've been so open about the journey and such a really kind of a really beautiful way.
(07:44):
Um, it really has brought us into kind of your story.
and I have looked at, look at my kids differently now, like a hundred percent because ofyou.
So, so.
Well, yeah, and thanks to Noah because his life and death is very meaningful and willcontinue to be meaningful.
(08:05):
And I'm not letting my grief or what happened go to like, I don't know if the right wordis waste, you know, like it, I want it to be impactful forever.
And so I am very open about what has happened because we're not alone.
(08:26):
We're not alone.
And yeah, I just think it's really important for us to be real, have real conversations,you know, because Noah didn't, I think, feel like he had the platform to have real, a real
conversation.
em yeah, so, you know, I look back.
(08:48):
So I guess I'll kind of go into the I discovered.
Noah, not alive.
And I have a lot of trauma around that.
I'm I'm with PTSD.
You know, I like to say now I have symptoms of it still.
I, I don't love like labels like that, or it's like, I have PTSD.
(09:12):
But I do continue to have some symptoms.
But the psychedelic work has really helped me and
And if I'm being really honest, I don't know if I would be alive if I hadn't gone thispath.
Yeah.
That's big.
It's huge.
And that's why I'm such an up.
(09:33):
I'm not quiet about it.
I'm not quiet because it saves lives.
It has saved my life.
And I wonder what it would have done for Noah, you know, I hadn't been able to do it.
But yeah.
So.
And you mentioned too, and that he overdosed on his own antidepressant.
(09:55):
Like, what does that tell us?
You know, this comes up a lot in the show, right, Jeremy?
Like so many times that we bring and we talk about the mix of clinical versus kind ofalternative, more like holistic therapies and things like that.
And psychedelics, use of psychedelics, huge growing, I think.
that it's always been, well, you just take a pill, right?
And that's the answer.
And it's not, you know, and
(10:17):
just being more open minded to these things.
And you don't know what you don't know, obviously, but.
Exactly.
And you know, I had a lot of guilt and shame around not knowing more as a social workprofessor.
mean, come on, like, how did I not know more about?
I mean, my work was never clinical.
But still, it's like, how did I not realize the damage that this medication could do?
(10:41):
also just, you know, so I did, I wrote one of the books I wrote is called Soul Work, AField Guide to Freedom.
And the point of that book is that we have to do the deep work.
It is not about taking the pill.
Like if you don't do the deep work, you are going to stay stuck in whatever it is that'sailing you.
(11:01):
And it's really hard to do the deep work.
And I remember when people would say that like, I'm doing the work or like after mydivorce, I'm doing the work.
And I was like, what the hell does that mean?
What does doing the work mean?
I don't understand what that means.
But now I'm like, I kind of get it.
I think.
I think the work is um really facing yourself, really facing your fears and your storiesyou tell yourself.
(11:30):
um psychedelics help you to do that.
They help you, they build capacity for you to do that.
Because often we're not resourced enough to even face those things.
It's too much.
It's just too much.
We can't handle it.
And so that's one of the things I love.
And I thought, you know,
(11:51):
My PTSD was really severe for a while where I just was like, I have to get out of mybrain.
I cannot live in this brain.
Like I just wanted to claw my brain out of my body, you know, and, and I didn't know howto even dip my toe into dealing with it.
People would say EMDR or, you know, whatever, like therapies and EMDR was re-traumatizingfor me at that point.
(12:19):
It was way too soon.
I tried it.
What is EMDR?
It's eye movement.
um
We're gonna have somebody come on.
It keeps coming up.
Yeah.
I've got somebody coming.
It is a useful effective practice, but I would say for immediate trauma, it is not.
(12:41):
eh Yeah, you have to have some distance from the event or the thing that you're dealing
And can I ask you a quick question too, just back up too?
Did you, after this all happened, right?
I mean, it was July of last year, correct?
I think, right?
When, when you left him, um did you go and see somebody immediately where like, okay, soyou went in, you're like, I need, like you had the wherewithal to be like, okay, right
(13:08):
here.
I absolutely need something.
Okay.
Yes, yeah, I mean I couldn't function.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah
yeah, that's not something you go through alone.
No, no, I wouldn't think so.
But you know, you know, honestly, I've seen people not so like not go to get help.
And you know, like in the grieving moms forums that I'm a part of our grieving parents,you know, a lot of people go directly on the medication and are sedated and and I see why
(13:41):
I mean, I can get it like I wanted to be too, but I didn't want any foreign substance inmy body because I had seen I know that Noah was smoking weed and had drank before he took
his life and I
just it made me feel sick to my stomach to even think about having anything in my system.
(14:01):
And so, and that he overdosed on his antidepressants.
So I was like, no FN way am I gonna put anything like that in my body?
And um yeah, so I think I was in a situation where I just was like, I have to figure outhow to deal with this.
I have two other children and so I had to figure out how to function.
(14:23):
you know, it wasn't an option for me to just.
ah
Okay.
So you got the diagnosis with PTSD and then you started going down the, I'm assuming youprobably were on some sort of antidepressants, et cetera, but then no, nothing.
You didn't do that at all.
m Okay.
(14:44):
Okay.
So you were like nothing.
When I say nothing in my body, you were like a hundred percent.
No, I'm going to figure this out.
that's okay.
So what steered you toward the psychedelics then?
So, you know, in Portland, psilocybin is legal.
uh There are treatment centers where you can go and receive uh therapeutic psilocybintreatment uh and ketamine as well.
(15:09):
I don't know if ketamine is legal in other places, but I know it is.
have it here.
couple of our, or a few of our first handful of episodes are all about ketamine.
Okay.
So yeah, well, and actually, this is a very, this is sort of a, it's funny, not funny, butinteresting story and how I was led to it.
several of Noah's friends' moms were like naturopaths or, you know, kind of in this moreholistic world, and they were telling me like, consider psychedelics.
(15:40):
And I was like, oh, interesting.
And so I started researching it, and I actually got signed up to do ketamine therapy witha naturopath that was recommended.
em But then I, my son's well, so the immediate therapist I went to to do EMDR right afterthis happened, um she ended up saying she couldn't work with me because it was too much
(16:03):
for her emotionally.
And so when I, you know, when I had to relive through EMDR, you have to kind of relivethis, the scenario, it was very traumatizing for her.
And she ended up seeing my other son later on.
So I was
still in contact with her.
And when I was talking to her about his treatment, and what we could do next for him, shesaid, you know, after I saw you, I needed a little bit of help.
(16:28):
And I went to see this person for psychedelic work.
And he's under Yeah, this person is underground because MDMA is the thing that's primarilyrecommended for PTSD and trauma, it, it provides this kind of like, hmm,
(16:49):
softness or buffer from from reliving the trauma, you relive it.
But it there's like a softness so you can.
And, and so he did these, he used MDMA and a lot of different things.
So I ended up seeing him actually, about my son, my son did not end up doing that work atall.
(17:11):
But I was like, maybe I want to do this instead of ketamine.
And so that's how I entered in and um
Okay.
Yeah.
And I think generally it's a similar effect that you're getting, cause it's all about egodissolution.
That softness you're talking about.
This is what Dr.
Casey talked about in episode three with the ketamine.
(17:33):
It's an ego dissolution agent.
It allows you to kind of detach from yourself and look at your problems objectivelywithout the emotion, without the judgment, without all the existing traumas that came
before it, all that stuff.
It gives you a clear.
vision of your own problems so that you can actually like face them and deal with them andfigure out how to fix them in a real way without losing yourself in the emotion and losing
(18:00):
yourself in the memories and things like that is really what the psychedelics are doingfor you in that case, as far as I, as far as what I know about the whole thing.
And you know, MDMA is not considered a classic psychedelic.
There's not, you know, hallucinations or anything or like, you know, visual changes oranything like that.
Um, but what MDMA did is, and I've used it multiple times.
(18:24):
Um, I've done four, four formal journeys.
I've, I would also include some of the breath work I've done as like, like it feels asit's the same thing as psychedelic work.
Absolutely.
And, um,
I've also done combo, is like a, it's a Amazon frog poison, which I can talk about uhseparately, but yeah.
(18:50):
I even heard of that one, so.
Cool toads in the rain forest.
Yeah.
uh
But yeah, what MDMA did specifically is it would bring me back to a memory and it takesyou straight like, I don't even know where I'm gonna go.
And then it takes me straight to where I need to go.
And I'll revisit something and then I'll just have a huge somatic for hours somaticrelease about it.
(19:16):
So like my first session, I literally gave birth to my grief for Noah, like I was havingcontractions and birth like,
birthing this grief and it was huge somatic release.
was horrible.
just, I would repeat things ah that had been kind of ingrained in my head.
(19:37):
Like I was so scared.
I didn't know where you went.
I'm so sorry.
Like, know, whatever.
And then my whole body would just kind of relax and I would have this understanding of itall, this compassion for myself, for the situation, like a bigger picture.
And, that one was so beautiful because, because I found Noah, I kept saying, found him.
(20:04):
my God, I can feel him in, can feel his energy inside of my body.
I felt his energy and so, and I was like, I just kept saying, I found him.
Oh my God, thank God I found him.
Cause I didn't know where he went and I was so scared.
And, um, that was transformational for me.
Transformational.
(20:25):
you know, um
God, just I'm like, yeah.
I mean, and I have a million stories like that from my journey is that these huge ahas andNoah will talk to me specifically with MDMA about things that happened here on earth, like
uh surrounding his death.
(20:47):
And so I will have these insights into what that was like for him or um yeah.
So that's MDMA and then
I have used that at the beginning of some other journeys just because I have told myguide, I'm like, I just really love it because A, I don't feel like I have the capacity to
(21:11):
feel physically to have the somatic releases without it.
Like I need this kind of supportive container for it and I get the messages from Noah.
And so I really like that.
em Yeah, yeah.
But I have done, I don't know you wanna go through the different psychedelics I've usedand how they've been helpful or I don't, yeah.
(21:35):
I mean, I'm interested in all of it, so.
The other doesn't really have experience.
I have no experience with psychedelics.
I mean, I think I did mushrooms a couple of times when I was in high school at a fish orGrateful Dead show.
I had done nothing, literally nothing up until this point.
(21:56):
Yeah, yeah, so I don't know.
I'm like, I'm fascinated by it.
I'm absolutely terrified of it as well.
So I'm but then I hear stories like this.
Well, I would say this is what I have to say about it because I'm not a proponent of justgo-do psychedelics.
I'm not because I think it can end up real bad.
You have to know what you're doing with them.
(22:17):
Yes.
That's very much a big disclaimer for anyone out there who hasn't gotten into this.
Don't just go get a bunch of mushrooms and eat a handful of them.
That is not what you do.
Find someone who knows how it works and is respectful of the process and have them helpyou through it the first couple of times.
And then you'll know.
Yeah, and you know, this is what my guide tells me that because after a couple ofjourneys, I said, you know, do you think I could do some on my own?
(22:44):
And he said, well, you could, but I think you might be underwhelmed compared to what we'vedone, because when he's with me, we have 12 hours together.
We go out to a dome in the woods and yeah.
MDMA is not a short trip.
rounds of it too.
So I will take a break about the day.
(23:06):
Oh, OK.
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
OK.
My friend is literally right now on a ayahuasca retreat up in Utah for the next week.
So and that's not her first one.
She's actually I got to try to get her to come on the show.
And and she uses it for different reasons.
Trauma PTSD.
She's stroke survivor.
So like stuff like with brain trauma.
But anyway, I love hearing about all of this.
(23:29):
So it's 12 hours.
I haven't heard that.
OK.
some of it, I mean, it's a 12 hour, we have between eight and 12 hours together, dependingon what I'm doing.
But we it's a very sacred process.
And it's contained.
And so he said, you know, I feel safe enough to have all this stuff come up, right?
(23:49):
Because I have him, I have a safe container, I know, you know, generally what to expectwith that.
And so I think that is really important.
The other pieces, I meet
I've met with him four or five, six times before a journey.
And we're going through just emotional stuff.
(24:09):
used IFS, internal family systems therapy and some other somatic thing, know, breaths andbreath work or combo, the frog poison.
em then we have the journey.
And then I meet with him four or five, six times after to integrate, to take what came outof that and really process it.
(24:33):
that much different than Dr.
Casey's process and his ketamine clinic.
Yeah.
Honestly.
Okay.
You meet with them and figure it out and then you do the course of treatments with thedrug and then you follow up with the psychiatric treatments after figure out what it gave
you and how to work with it.
And is your is your guide?
he I mean, is he like, is he like a clinical psychologist?
(24:55):
Like, do they have any kinds of
underground and so he can't yeah and so there are many I actually haven't
real shaman don't get licensed.
That's the reality of the thing.
Right.
is and you know, the thing too is I mean, I'm glad that the psilocybin is legal here, butyou have to do it in like an office building.
(25:20):
good.
That doesn't seem...
I die in the woods, man.
Yeah.
yeah, very sterile and clinical and I even if I was doing psilocybin, which is legal, Iwouldn't do it legally because I don't want that environment.
so
So it's only legal in the clinics.
oh It's not like you can walk around on the street with it.
(25:42):
It has to be in the clinic.
Well, you can and not get arrested unless it's over a certain amount here.
Oh, okay.
everything's kind of decriminalized there.
Yeah, yeah, I'm part of a different animal.
If it didn't rain so much, I'd move there.
know, yeah, it's pretty great in that way.
um, and now
(26:02):
those big fires that are going on there.
A little bit of sarcasm there.
Invasion of the Invisible Dinosaurs
We're all on psilocybin.
they might be.
uh
after my last journey, which is LSD, I was like, gosh, this actually should be in thewater.
(26:25):
Like, it's just such a loving drug, you know, or like substance.
It's I don't like using the word drug.
But yeah, we we typically speak about this as medicine, right?
are medicines.
And yeah, but so so I did that my first journey was just MDMA and it was very somatic.
(26:46):
And I had these ahas.
My second journey
was I used a I started with MDMA, I used a synthetic version of psilocybin, we call itpsilocybin light, I guess.
It's like C2, I don't remember as a bunch of different letters and numbers combined.
And, and then um he did this specifically, because he said it was a trauma informedapproach to ego dissolution.
(27:12):
So we could titrate it, and kind of add like, okay, we're gonna start with this, and we'regonna add a little less see what happens and then
a little listen to what happens.
And so I ended up having an ego dissolution after just that, but I was stuck in it and Iwas really freaking out.
And he then gave me a little bit of ketamine and it took me across and I then wascompletely just dissolved into the one ah which was the most uh transformational
(27:42):
experience I think I've had and
is quite the cocktail.
That would be intense.
And that was that was the whole birthing of your grief.
That was the first journey.
This is the second journey.
So this was a totally different, OK, another very transformational.
This has been life changing for you is what I'm Like without it.
(28:06):
With that one, that journey showed me how everything is necessary.
The light and the dark, the challenges, the joys, how it all plays together and it justhas to be that way.
It all has to be that way.
psychedelics are hard to explain verbally, but that knowing inside of me has made thisbearable.
(28:35):
um Because it's just part of it.
It's just part of this is life.
This is creation creation is that like churning right like everything's changing andchurning and feeding off each other and I wouldn't know the depths of my love for Noah or
my other children if I hadn't lost him.
I wouldn't I didn't I thought I knew I did not know.
(28:59):
I did not know.
Like, yeah, and um
So that journey was, that was my main takeaway from that one.
And I will sit with these for like four or five, six weeks and journal and write and thinkand just sit.
(29:20):
Like your brain is malleable for two to three weeks after these journeys.
So you can create new neural pathways.
It's like, they call it like a snow globe.
So when you take a substance like this, it's like shaking a snow globe.
And now you can,
have like new patterns.
Okay, I see what you're saying.
(29:40):
It's almost like things are moving and creating space that maybe didn't didn't existbefore you kind of shook it up.
That's like what Jessica Tracy on the ketamine, not Jessica Tracy, uh, Lee, Lee call thepatient who she watched her, her neural networks rebuilt themselves behind while she was
on the ketamine sessions, literally watching the neural pathways stream through her ownbrain and rewire itself.
(30:09):
I mean, it just kind of goes to show you like how much more capacity our brains have.
Like if we could just kind of get out of our own way and it sounds like psychedelic.
Yeah.
That's what it is.
You got to be able to look at yourself objectively like that, where you're not judgingyourself.
And you, so you can see the truth of your actual situation and see why you're doing whatyou're doing.
(30:33):
It is, it's a truth teller is really what it is.
And I would say the biggest thing I've learned from it, because you have to do this to nothave a bad trip is how to surrender.
oh
It's like floating down a river.
You got to just relax into it and let it take you.
(30:53):
You know what I mean?
If you fight it, you're going to drown.
I feel like I hear it a lot.
Yeah, that kind of concept of surrender.
uh Ryan and Shelby, who run our liquid breath work classes here, which I'm doing onWednesday, they came on the show and talked it's liquid breath work isn't like somatic.
It's kind of like uh a more gentler version of breath work.
(31:14):
uh
There's a very guided meditation sort of aspect to it.
Well, yeah, and I've I felt hypnotized.
I felt like in a very deep state of meditation the last time I did the class with them.
But um Ryan talks a lot about surrender.
Like there's like this concept of surrender.
And I feel like that's like constantly in my head now from all the people that I'msurrounding myself.
(31:36):
Honestly, think that is like the number one lesson in life.
Like, like if I didn't surrender to my reality, I would be stuck in constant torture.
Yeah.
You gotta let go.
you have to surrender to what is, or you are tortured.
(32:00):
that the key to a happy existence is accepting the universe as it chooses to be.
That's Daoist thing.
That's very Dao.
Yeah, the thing that was the other thing with that second journey was like, oh, everythingjust is it's not good or bad.
It just is.
(32:20):
We create stories around everything, but it actually just isn't our perception is whatcreates reality.
All those labels are artificial.
realness of things is what you find on these journeys you're taking.
Jeremy would love this conversation today.
I let go 15 years ago.
(32:40):
I've been in a flow state for 15 years.
I've pretty much just been doing what feels right for the last 15 years.
I haven't had a real boss, a real job.
I haven't waited for a paycheck.
I do a job and I get paid.
Mm-hmm.
This is where, that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing now.
I'm like, whatever the universe throws at me, I'll say yes to you.
I'll just, surrender.
(33:02):
know, but, but I'm not gonna, hmm, yeah, make, try to make anything.
I mean, the illusion of control is, it's an illusion, right?
So.
Yeah, the more actual control you think you have over your life, the more you just lie inyourself.
Well, you know, interest
can happen at any time.
(33:24):
Right, we have zero control over it.
Like I never would have thought this is my life, you know?
And here we are.
you know, Noah's birthday was on Friday.
He would have been 18.
And I haven't finished integrating this last journey I had, and I am having some hangupswith it.
I think I need a little help.
(33:44):
It was an LSD journey.
it really, I thought, I told Noah before the journey, I was like, okay, buddy, show mewhere you are.
Take me on a tour.
And I did a pretty high dose of LSD.
And you know what happened?
I didn't go anywhere.
I was the most present I've ever been.
I was clear.
(34:05):
I wasn't altered.
I was so present.
Everything was light and crisp.
And I was just there.
And it felt blissful.
I was in a bliss state in my yurt.
just there.
It was insane.
I had just taken a ton of LSD.
Like I didn't go anywhere.
(34:26):
I was just it was so beautiful.
And I thought this is it.
I don't need to go anywhere.
It's here.
Whatever we're looking for.
It's not out there.
It's literally right here right now in presence.
And that was huge.
And it opened my heart so much my heart just
(34:48):
And that's been hard coming back into this society of like, like, hierarchy and greed andlike all these things.
And I'm just like, ah, how do I, so that's the integration piece, right?
is
This is why the government doesn't want us to do LSD.
Because it makes us realize that we don't need the government.
(35:11):
That's really why they don't like psychedelics, because it makes us very anti-control andanti-government, know, anti-structure like that.
It makes us realize we could just live our own lives.
We don't need this legal.
It was legal and it was used therapeutically for many years.
The government got scared and they they made it illegal again, but this is not new.
(35:36):
This is not new that this is like a very uh hopeful, you know, and powerful method forpeople to.
open up and open their eyes and really see what's going on in their life and in the world.
And yeah, I mean, I don't know.
And this breathwork is blowing my mind to this, this man um just came from the Amazon toPortland, he's visiting for a week.
(36:03):
And he led this breathwork session.
And I had not had one like this before.
I've done several different kinds, but this was different.
It's a primordial breathwork.
was created by
Amazonians have used it for
And em I connected with Noah in a way I have not been able to.
(36:25):
And like normally Noah will drop impressions in my head and I'll kind of have thoughts popin.
But I have not been able to have a conversation with him.
And during this breath work, it was probably an hour and a half in, it was quite a longbreath work session.
(36:45):
And all of a sudden I was like, my God, you're there.
we can have a conversation.
He said, yeah, I'm here.
And I was like, okay, what should we talk about?
And then I had this awareness.
There's nothing to talk about.
None of it matters.
We're just together in love, you know?
Like he's just with me in loving energy and I'm with him in loving energy and that is allthat matters.
(37:10):
Like nothing else does.
And I've been grasping for like, I just want to talk to you, just show yourself, you know?
And like,
It was so clear to me.
I don't need that anymore.
Yeah.
That that's the healing process, That you've both come to peace with where you're at.
(37:31):
Yeah, that you have these opportunities, right?
That you have these moments.
Can you imagine if you didn't?
You know what?
No, I mean, that's what I'm saying.
And this is why I actually have.
I haven't.
It's in beginning stages.
But, you know, this work has been very expensive for me.
And thank God I have savings.
But I would say for just myself, I've spent about $15,000 on a psychedelic in the pastyear.
(38:00):
And that's not accessible.
It's not.
It's not okay.
Like there are so many other grieving parents that I know that I know benefit from thisand they can't afford it.
um, yeah.
unfortunate.
People should have access to this stuff.
Yeah, we'd be a lot healthier in mind and body and soul and all those things if we couldjust get people connected with the right kind of care, right?
(38:29):
The right kind of support that they need.
And just and even regulate it but to me it uh plays into the whole concept of I mean yourstory is such a perfect example for this let's get rid of those pills that we don't even
really understand what the hell they're doing to people and replace them with thesepsychedelics that we know how they work and you have you get them from the doctor and you
(38:53):
do it in the clinic and you still can't just go buy it at the store you still can't justdo it on your own that's fine
As much as I think we should be able to do that, at least make it available through thedoctors.
1000%.
And I've been microdosing for three or four months now.
After I did my psilocybin journey, I microdose, I started microdosing and that has beentransformational for me as well.
(39:22):
I feel more clear headed, I feel more connected just to the world, you know, where I caneasily start to be feel a little disconnected.
and like depressed, you know, I would say the journeys have for sure decreased myflashbacks, my PTSD symptoms.
(39:46):
That was my main goal going in.
That's why I started doing it.
Now I feel like
Got way more out of it, obviously.
Now I'm like, tell me all the messages universe, you know, I just love it.
It's so beautiful every time it's so impactful.
But yeah, so the microdosing, know, instead of antidepressants, the microdosing is sobeautiful and it's natural and you don't have to, there's no withdrawal.
(40:14):
There's no like, if I miss today, I might feel suicidal.
There's no addiction.
m
Do you think like, obviously you've been going about this, doing the MDMA, the psilocybin,you all the different kind of journeys that you've been on.
Do you feel like the intensity of those in terms of maybe just like how often you're doingit will kind of taper off at some point, or is that kind of how it's supposed to work?
(40:43):
And then it becomes kind of maintenance.
uh
think so.
From what I have seen with other people, they might do one or two a year.
I was doing one every two months for this past year.
And even now I feel like, okay, I think I can slow down and really, really integrateeverything.
(41:05):
But it's such a gift every time that I don't want to stop doing it.
I thinking inside of me is like, think I wouldn't want to either because to be able, youknow, being a mom, I've got two boys who through, through your trauma and loss, I look at
so very, especially Zane because they're really close in age and I'm like so close withhim.
(41:31):
And I just, can't imagine never not being able to have that.
And I would do anything to, right.
So I get it.
Like,
Yeah, I just keep doing it too.
It really does depend on the person too though.
Cause like I have a buddy with military grade PTSD who started doing just microdoses ofpsilocybin.
(41:55):
That's it.
And after like a week he was like, my God, I think I'm okay.
And he just, he does a microdose every day, you know, and for him that's perfect.
I like to do, like you just said, like twice a year, I do a little more of that than thatat a time.
But I like about twice a year, either go into the woods or I go to a concert for some livemusic and I have myself a little ceremony and I come out feeling so much better.
(42:28):
Like so much better.
The last six months of stress is gone.
know, right.
But if you want to get into it fresh, that's why you need some, you do need yourself a bitof a shaman, some kind of guide.
to show you the different ways and the different levels and what to expect and how toactually go through it.
(42:50):
And then once you experience it, you'll know, okay, so I'm more of a microdose or I'm moreof a macrodose.
And even which psychedelic because some people are like, Oh, yeah, LSD makes me reallynot.
I don't have a good trip on that or whatever, you know.
The friendliest one is the psilocybin.
uh
(43:11):
the most scared of.
Well, it's a weird drug because it really depends on dose.
If you do just a little bit, like a microdose of psilocybin literally just turns on yourhappy switch, you're not going to get much else except you're going to smile more and
laugh easier kind of thing for a while.
If you do like three plus grams of psilocybin, that's going to the other side.
(43:33):
That's a full on hallucinogenic journey.
Like it's a different world.
Like there's a certain threshold of psilocybin where once you go past that, it's a
different experience.
It's kind of like the ketamine.
Okay.
Where, you know, if you get it from Dr.
Casey, it's a, it's a psychedelic thing.
If you go to the hospital for surgery, they give it to you and it's a whole differentlevel.
They're full on knocking you out for a while.
(43:55):
like, ah so it's like a different kind of trip lasts longer and more intense and thingslike that.
But it's like a whole different experience, you know?
So you got to know your doses and you got to know what drugs you're dealing with.
You got to know your doses and you know, go into it.
wise.
So, cause it's the people who have the bad trips go into it, not knowing what they'redoing and they take too much of the wrong thing and they do it in the wrong situation.
(44:19):
And all of sudden all goes bad.
Yeah.
And the thing I say too is, you know, I don't know if this is just a Portland thing, butkids are youth, teenagers are experimenting with psychedelics just like they are other
drugs.
And we need to open the conversation around them because if we're kind of like gatekeepingthis information about like how to do it safely, how to get, you know, how to access it
(44:45):
and make sure that it's clean and what you should be taking and how to do it safely.
like these kids are gonna have bad trips and that can be, you know, that can betraumatizing to some extent.
so I just really like, I am writing this third book on my psychedelic experiences, uhresearch behind it, the history behind it.
(45:10):
And I want it to come from somebody like me, because I'm like, listen, I'm a mom, I have aPhD, I've lived in suburbia for like the longest time.
business too you know you your massage
And I've had this trauma and this is how it has transformed my life.
Like I'm not, you know, some wackadoo or whatever.
(45:31):
Like this is very transformation.
I did my research and I have done it responsibly and, um and I want more people to knowabout it.
Yeah.
And there's even more applications.
got another friend who, uh, had cluster headaches, chronic cluster headaches, kind of likemigraines.
He researched it and he found that you can break the cycle of your chronic headaches withpsilocybin.
(45:57):
When he felt one coming on, like before it actually hit, you got to like get a littleahead of it.
take them up just like it was basically a microdose that he was taken.
And, uh, I think it was like three times in a row, he caught it and like the psilocybinliterally like
stopped the headache from happening and he did a few times in a row and then they juststopped.
And it was like, and he used to get them all the time.
(46:18):
And then like a year later he felt it coming back and he did the same thing and like acouple of years later, but like he basically cured, comes back around a little bit
sometimes, but he basically cured his chronic headaches with psilocybin.
Like there's, there's so many applications to this.
We don't even know cause they won't do the research cause they don't want to legalize itor turn it into official medicine.
(46:39):
Yeah, there's an organization called Maps.
was just gonna say maps.
Yes, I know who they are.
I want them to come on the show.
Yeah, I know.
They've been on my list.
I found out about them actually at the Devin company shows at the sphere that I went tobecause they had four nonprofits that you could choose to like donate to.
(47:00):
And I stood there talking to them forever.
What
Yeah, they're the I don't remember.
I don't know what it stands for.
yeah, like advocacy.
So they're the ones who have been pushing through the research on MDMA, which almostlegalized federally about a year ago.
And then the pharmaceutical companies made sure that didn't happen.
(47:23):
Of course.
Yeah, but they can
it and patent it and make a billion dollars off it will
Yeah, but it was almost there because they had done a lot of clinical trials at maps hadsponsored and raised funds and You know had these clinical trials done.
So maps is a great advocacy organization for psychedelics and MDMA Therapeutically, youknow to be used therapeutically.
(47:50):
So yeah, they're great.
And I Don't know where else to get information.
I mean there are
tons of studies there really are because the VA actually has used some of this for PTSDand
Terrence McKenna.
The gods.
Michael Pollan just wrote some books on the whole psychedelics in your brain.
(48:13):
Well, there was something on the news not that long ago.
was like NBC News.
It was like something big.
And it was all of these veterans that were down in, I believe, Costa Rica or something.
And it was about their experiences with using psychedelics.
They were there for a week.
All of them had various levels of PTSD, you know, from being in combat and whatnot.
ah
(48:33):
And they were all just like, wow, you know, for the most part, I think there might've beenlike one person that was like, yep, nope, that's not for me, which that's fine, right?
Yeah.
Well, my friend I was talking about who's on the Ayahuasca retreat right now in Utah,which is not her first one.
She was, she's a veteran as well.
So, which is some of her PTSD um stems from that.
(48:57):
So, uh
So yeah, she would fall into that category.
yeah, hopefully I can get her to come on the show and talk about all of her experiences.
It really is a public health thing.
mean, you know, for soldiers, for parents who have lost children, like the rate of earlydeath is like, it's like three times as high, you know, and it's just, if we really want
(49:24):
to help people and care about their suffering, this is a really promising avenue and towithhold it,
and not have it available is unconscionable in my opinion.
Yeah, it's criminal.
It really is.
It is criminal.
If I didn't have access to this, I do not know if I would be alive.
I know I said that before and I really mean it.
(49:46):
do not know.
This trauma is so severe.
Like, how am I supposed to live if I if I didn't have these ahas and awakenings and mymind opening and my heart opening and the self compassion and all of it?
Like, I don't know how that would have happened.
You know, and yeah, so
So I'm not shy about talking about it.
(50:08):
I w I'm so glad you guys are having this podcast and, ah I want to get the word out.
We think it's important.
You know, I've worked in the healthcare industry for a long time and I've seen a lot ofpeople em not be served by it for a lot of different reasons.
em Yeah, there's so many things that are not right.
(50:28):
And then there's something like this that gives people such a pathway to hope and lifeand, you know, being able to thrive again, right?
Like, and not, not all apart.
you know, you can still
where you're at right now.
I looking how successful you are considering what you went through and that was what hassaved you.
(50:49):
It's not Yeah, I would say it's not like, yeah, you don't just take it and you're better.
It is the integration piece that's critical to like the really processing what yourmessages were and what you got from it.
And that's why the soul workbook like, that's what I how I see this being used is like,after after psychedelic journey.
(51:14):
It's like super short, there's like five page, know, it's like on control or fear orsurrendering or suffer, you know, connection with your own innate like somatic wisdom,
like all of these things.
And then like integration prompts, because if you don't have a person like I had, or youcan't afford to do all the sessions with a person like I had, there's gotta be stuff like
(51:37):
this to help you like integrate it, you know, and really use it so that you can
live your life and not feel like you want to have to die, you know?
Yeah.
It's possible.
Before we wrap it up, because I know you were about to say that, I just realized I misseda question I really have to cover.
(52:00):
The frog poison.
Oh, that's right.
You said he gave it to you in preparation for the MDMA journey.
I'm just wondering the actual effect and application of the drug poison that you're using.
So, yeah, I, was actually before my LSD journey that he wanted to use that because itreally, it's a purification that opens you up, um, to be able to, yeah, just receive more.
(52:30):
And so it, you just, you burn tiny, tiny little holes in your skin and you apply the frogpoison to the holes and it makes you immediately.
be very sick.
And you throw up, you drink a lot of water, you drink like two liters of water rightbefore.
(52:54):
And you throw up you might I don't know each I've done it three times and each time hasbeen different.
But there's a really amazing like clarity that comes to you afterwards.
And it might be about something you don't even you didn't think you even needed to, youknow, have clarity on but it it
(53:14):
has its own innate wisdom, the combo does.
It's spelled K-A-M-B-O.
So it's like a really fast effect kind of thing.
immediate and then within an hour it's done.
Almost like a DMT sort of thing.
I was just gonna say, yeah, that sounds almost...
Different but in the same genre it sounds like.
face swells up like a And your voice gets real deep too.
(53:42):
No way.
Okay, that's so crazy.
Okay, he's got a psychedelic fuck.
Not too many I haven't
Yeah, you're gonna have to go you're gonna have to go up to Portland and and get with her
I've been wanting to get up there anyway, just in case you need another reason.
Well, OK, well, I'm glad you asked that question because we did forget to go back and talkabout that.
(54:06):
That's a new one.
That's a new one.
um Yeah, and I and I'm always the time checker.
Sorry, that's my job.
That's been a long, didn't we?
Yeah.
We always do.
We yeah, it totally is.
And I think there is so much to cover here.
uh But before we let you go, I want to I do want to I will put this in the show notes too.
(54:27):
I want to mention you've got two books.
So you have Noah Grant's Hope, 231 Days of a Mother's Transformation, much of what we'vebeen talking about here, which is great.
And then the soul work, oh a field guide to to freedom.
Those are the two that you have now.
You've got a third one you're working on.
So that's exciting.
um
(54:48):
When that's out there, we'll have to have to like retro go back and add it to the shownotes.
You have a link.
So we have.
we'll just have a back on so she can talk about the book
Or yeah, that's true.
We can just have you back on because we do like to bring people back.
But before we close out, though, um you have learned a lot.
You have obviously explored parts of your mind and your soul and the universe.
um That's so cool, by the way.
(55:11):
I'm feeling less scared about psychedelics now that I've talked to you about it.
um But what kind of wisdom?
What kind of wisdom would you want to share with with our listeners about kind ofeverything that you've learned and
I don't know.
I just feel like you have some in there that maybe you've already even shared it.
Well, I mean, I just think this is what I keep saying.
(55:33):
I have two things that have just been on repeat for me em since Noah passed.
And one is get real.
Let's just be real.
Let's be real with each other.
Let's be real about what's going on.
Let's be real about what's helping, what's not helping, how we're feeling.
um You know, with suicide, especially.
(55:57):
Yeah, we just don't want to talk about it.
and um we don't want to talk about the depths of our pain.
And there are a lot of people who have these thoughts and have these feelings.
It is not uncommon.
It's not.
And if we can talk about it, the pressure cooker kind of releases a little bit of thepressure.
(56:18):
And we can, yeah, I just wrote a post about this the other day.
um And yeah, can, Dr.
Tiffany Ryan on Instagram, like I post a lot about all of this stuff, but the,
The key is most people who attempt suicide will then act on it like five minutes to threehours after they've had the thought.
(56:43):
And so if we can actually say the thought out loud to someone who is not gonna react like,you know, crazy, who's gonna sit there and be with us and listen to us, or even just be,
not listen, if you don't even wanna talk, just be, until the...
that intensity passes, now we have the window of opportunity for the deep work.
(57:05):
And that's my second thing.
So get real, be real, let's just be freaking real with each other people, have theconversations.
And then it's the deep work.
We cannot mask it with pills and 50 minute therapy sessions where we vent.
Like this, that is not the way.
I feel.
very strongly that is not the way and whether psychedelics are your entry point into thedeeper work or not, the deeper work has to happen and that's why I soul work.
(57:34):
Like it has to happen or you will continue to suffer.
People will be suffering.
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be psychedelics.
It can be psychotherapy with the right doctor.
It can be primal screen therapy.
liquid breath work like we've been doing or some other
You got to find what works for you, but you have to find what works for you.
(57:55):
You're never going to get to work through it.
Yeah.
That's a great, great message to put out there is, mean, maybe it's not this, but you gotto find something.
Cause if you don't, if you don't deal with it, it's just going to eat you alive.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, and community is so important with that.
And so finding your community of whoever is dealing with it the way you're dealing with itor doing the inquiry the way you want to do the inquiry, like, that's so important.
(58:20):
And yeah, those are my two things.
Perfect.
So great, great, great notes to end on.
Thank you so much for coming on.
This has been an extremely and I, and I thought I knew a lot about what was going on.
I feel like even your posts have been so revealing and open and very, um, honest andvulnerable, but I feel like now talking to you, like, I really get it.
(58:46):
Yeah, yeah, I don't put as much detail about the psychedelic work.
I'll talk about my ahas, but not the details of the actual like experience.
But eh there it's profound.
The more we talk about it, the less stigma there will be and more people hopefully willliterally open their minds to doing this kind of work for themselves.
(59:12):
Yeah, exactly.
love the stigma lifting.
Oh, yeah.
It's great.
Definitely.
Awesome.
Well, thank you again.
Yeah, this is I'm so glad you came on.
Thanks for joining us on the Healthcare Uprising.
Make sure to hit those like and subscribe buttons before you go and take a moment to thinkof a friend and hit that share button.
(59:37):
You can find us on all the major audio platforms and we've got video on YouTube andPatreon, patreon.com slash healthcare uprising if you want to watch us in action.
You can also find us on social media on LinkedIn, Blue Sky, Instagram, and Facebook.
Just search healthcare uprising to find us.
And if you're a new company or creator with a cool new product for the healthcare space,or if you're someone with a personal healthcare journey and you'd like to share it with us
(01:00:01):
here at the uprising, please email us at healthcare uprising at gmail.com and we'll getback to you about coming on the show.
That's all for this dose of healthcare uprising.
Till the next time, keep looking for the good in the world.
but sometimes it's where you least expect it.
(01:00:58):
This has been a Shut Up production.
Shut up!
Alright, hello health heads.
Welcome and thank you for checking in to this dose of the healthcare uprising.
I'm your producer in the back, Jeremy Carr, here with your host in the front row, HeatherPierce.
So what's on our agenda for today, Heather?
So today we're going to have Dr.
Tiffany Ryan on, um, she is sharing.
So yeah, this is kind of an interesting conversation, right?
(00:35):
So she's been, um, she's authored two books.
She is a, a doctor of social work.
She is a professor.
She has her yo massage clinic.
So she actually got, you know, certified in massage.
Um, and she also went through a very tragic and traumatic loss of her oldest son.
who died by suicide July of 2024.
(01:00):
she talks very, so most of the episode, we're really diving into her use of psychedelicsin her, her mental health, her trauma, her PTSD therapy and support through dealing with
the loss of her son.
And so that's really where we're going to spend most of the time is talking about the useof psychedelics, why they're so effective.
(01:24):
And really how they have essentially changed her entire life.
yeah
This might be one of the very rare occasions on this podcast where I know more about thesubject matter than you do going into it.
Oh, not may you do and did.
uh
My time to shine.
Yeah, it is.
Let's get into our conversation with Dr.
Tiffany Ryan.
(01:49):
Hi and welcome to the healthcare uprising podcast today we have Dr.
Tiffany Ryan with us on the show today welcome Tiffany Dr.
Tiffany Ryan.
ah
Have this conversation.
Yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about a few things today.
So which is why I didn't really say who you're with or an organization.
(02:09):
um I think really our our conversation today is going to be really unique um and also wantto mention that we know each other.
I was I was just sharing with.
I do I know a lot of people I like I like people, especially in health care.
So, um, yeah, we go back to what like 2015 ish right in there.
(02:34):
I think we figured out, um, I'll spare the rest of the audience, the details, just knowthat, um, we are, we were friends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So with that, let's jump right in.
So, um, we are, and I want to mention to a couple, we're going to talk about use ofpsychedelics for mental health, therapy, trauma.
(02:55):
We're going to talk about some of your personal journey.
through loss and trauma.
um Obviously you're a doctor as well.
You've written a couple of books.
So we're gonna cover some area today, I think.
And so with that, just introduce yourself, tell us kind of what has brought you to thismoment and any kind of background or personal stuff you wanna share to kind of set the
(03:19):
foundation here.
give some of my professional background because I do think it does play a role in how Iview psychedelics and how I've been using them myself.
But yeah, I have my bachelor's, master's and PhD in social work.
And I have largely done macro level social work running organizations and you know, stateprograms, as well as being a social work professor.
(03:47):
So I did that for a long time until
Well, I did two things at once.
I was still a social work professor and I started a company called Yo Massage here inPortland, Oregon.
um That was after I actually went to get my massage training and yoga teacher trainingafter I got my PhD and you know, been a professional in that world, which was a little
(04:13):
backwards for some people.
But um yeah, so I founded this company and we
have a modality and it's called yo massage where we combine restorative stretch,meditation and therapeutic touch.
So I have the kind of research, more clinical background in social work, but I also havethis kind of alternative health mindset and experience.
(04:41):
So I just kind of want to lay the foundation with that.
But yeah, I guess leading up to my psychedelic use, I um
My family moved to Portland and when was that?
We had just done some traveling.
We moved to Portland in 2018, I believe.
(05:03):
I enjoyed your social media.
Was it dessert?
Living on the boat?
Yeah.
yeah, we left Flagstaff and moved on to a sailboat for a year uh and then moved to CostaRica where I did my massage and yoga training and then came to Portland.
um yeah, but I we moved here and you know the kids went back into their normal life.
(05:28):
um Suburban, I mean kind of suburbia.
Portland's a little less suburbia than some places but um
And my son, my oldest son Noah was struggling with mental health.
em I don't think I knew the extent of it.
Well, I know I didn't know the extent of it, em but I would say, was it maybe five months?
(05:53):
So he died last summer.
And I would say five months before he passed, he...
asked me if he could use psychedelics, if he could do mushrooms.
And I knew nothing about it.
This was not my wheelhouse at all.
And I never used them myself.
(06:14):
And so, you know, I was like, can we start with something easier, you know, like alcoholor weed or like, you know, uh little did I know, I think that had already happened.
But I, you know, just didn't know.
But I bring that up because um we ended up putting him on antidepressants, Wellbutrin.
(06:38):
And that is what he used to take his life.
He overdosed on Wellbutrin.
Yes.
And I like two weeks prior, he had missed a few days of taking it and was saying he wasfeeling really bad.
He was worried about himself.
(06:58):
And, you know, I don't know how much you know about antidepressants and whatnot, but manyof them, you, if you miss a couple days, especially when you're a youth under 18, it
impacts you in such a way where it does increase suicidal.
and tendencies and and so this is
all new to me.
(07:20):
I've learned quite honestly, I've, I've learned so much about it just from you sharingyour journey.
since, uh, since Noah left us.
I just, I, I've been, thank you, honestly.
Like I feel, I think that's why I've like really loved engaging with your posts on social.
You've been so open about the journey and such a really kind of a really beautiful way.
(07:44):
Um, it really has brought us into kind of your story.
and I have looked at, look at my kids differently now, like a hundred percent because ofyou.
So, so.
Well, yeah, and thanks to Noah because his life and death is very meaningful and willcontinue to be meaningful.
(08:05):
And I'm not letting my grief or what happened go to like, I don't know if the right wordis waste, you know, like it, I want it to be impactful forever.
And so I am very open about what has happened because we're not alone.
(08:26):
We're not alone.
And yeah, I just think it's really important for us to be real, have real conversations,you know, because Noah didn't, I think, feel like he had the platform to have real, a real
conversation.
em yeah, so, you know, I look back.
(08:48):
So I guess I'll kind of go into the I discovered.
Noah, not alive.
And I have a lot of trauma around that.
I'm I'm with PTSD.
You know, I like to say now I have symptoms of it still.
I, I don't love like labels like that, or it's like, I have PTSD.
(09:12):
But I do continue to have some symptoms.
But the psychedelic work has really helped me and
And if I'm being really honest, I don't know if I would be alive if I hadn't gone thispath.
Yeah.
That's big.
It's huge.
And that's why I'm such an up.
(09:33):
I'm not quiet about it.
I'm not quiet because it saves lives.
It has saved my life.
And I wonder what it would have done for Noah, you know, I hadn't been able to do it.
But yeah.
So.
And you mentioned too, and that he overdosed on his own antidepressant.
(09:55):
Like, what does that tell us?
You know, this comes up a lot in the show, right, Jeremy?
Like so many times that we bring and we talk about the mix of clinical versus kind ofalternative, more like holistic therapies and things like that.
And psychedelics, use of psychedelics, huge growing, I think.
that it's always been, well, you just take a pill, right?
And that's the answer.
And it's not, you know, and
(10:17):
just being more open minded to these things.
And you don't know what you don't know, obviously, but.
Exactly.
And you know, I had a lot of guilt and shame around not knowing more as a social workprofessor.
mean, come on, like, how did I not know more about?
I mean, my work was never clinical.
But still, it's like, how did I not realize the damage that this medication could do?
(10:41):
also just, you know, so I did, I wrote one of the books I wrote is called Soul Work, AField Guide to Freedom.
And the point of that book is that we have to do the deep work.
It is not about taking the pill.
Like if you don't do the deep work, you are going to stay stuck in whatever it is that'sailing you.
(11:01):
And it's really hard to do the deep work.
And I remember when people would say that like, I'm doing the work or like after mydivorce, I'm doing the work.
And I was like, what the hell does that mean?
What does doing the work mean?
I don't understand what that means.
But now I'm like, I kind of get it.
I think.
I think the work is um really facing yourself, really facing your fears and your storiesyou tell yourself.
(11:30):
um psychedelics help you to do that.
They help you, they build capacity for you to do that.
Because often we're not resourced enough to even face those things.
It's too much.
It's just too much.
We can't handle it.
And so that's one of the things I love.
And I thought, you know,
(11:51):
My PTSD was really severe for a while where I just was like, I have to get out of mybrain.
I cannot live in this brain.
Like I just wanted to claw my brain out of my body, you know, and, and I didn't know howto even dip my toe into dealing with it.
People would say EMDR or, you know, whatever, like therapies and EMDR was re-traumatizingfor me at that point.
(12:19):
It was way too soon.
I tried it.
What is EMDR?
It's eye movement.
um
We're gonna have somebody come on.
It keeps coming up.
Yeah.
I've got somebody coming.
It is a useful effective practice, but I would say for immediate trauma, it is not.
(12:41):
eh Yeah, you have to have some distance from the event or the thing that you're dealing
And can I ask you a quick question too, just back up too?
Did you, after this all happened, right?
I mean, it was July of last year, correct?
I think, right?
When, when you left him, um did you go and see somebody immediately where like, okay, soyou went in, you're like, I need, like you had the wherewithal to be like, okay, right
(13:08):
here.
I absolutely need something.
Okay.
Yes, yeah, I mean I couldn't function.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah
yeah, that's not something you go through alone.
No, no, I wouldn't think so.
But you know, you know, honestly, I've seen people not so like not go to get help.
And you know, like in the grieving moms forums that I'm a part of our grieving parents,you know, a lot of people go directly on the medication and are sedated and and I see why
(13:41):
I mean, I can get it like I wanted to be too, but I didn't want any foreign substance inmy body because I had seen I know that Noah was smoking weed and had drank before he took
his life and I
just it made me feel sick to my stomach to even think about having anything in my system.
(14:01):
And so, and that he overdosed on his antidepressants.
So I was like, no FN way am I gonna put anything like that in my body?
And um yeah, so I think I was in a situation where I just was like, I have to figure outhow to deal with this.
I have two other children and so I had to figure out how to function.
(14:23):
you know, it wasn't an option for me to just.
ah
Okay.
So you got the diagnosis with PTSD and then you started going down the, I'm assuming youprobably were on some sort of antidepressants, et cetera, but then no, nothing.
You didn't do that at all.
m Okay.
(14:44):
Okay.
So you were like nothing.
When I say nothing in my body, you were like a hundred percent.
No, I'm going to figure this out.
that's okay.
So what steered you toward the psychedelics then?
So, you know, in Portland, psilocybin is legal.
uh There are treatment centers where you can go and receive uh therapeutic psilocybintreatment uh and ketamine as well.
(15:09):
I don't know if ketamine is legal in other places, but I know it is.
have it here.
couple of our, or a few of our first handful of episodes are all about ketamine.
Okay.
So yeah, well, and actually, this is a very, this is sort of a, it's funny, not funny, butinteresting story and how I was led to it.
several of Noah's friends' moms were like naturopaths or, you know, kind of in this moreholistic world, and they were telling me like, consider psychedelics.
(15:40):
And I was like, oh, interesting.
And so I started researching it, and I actually got signed up to do ketamine therapy witha naturopath that was recommended.
em But then I, my son's well, so the immediate therapist I went to to do EMDR right afterthis happened, um she ended up saying she couldn't work with me because it was too much
(16:03):
for her emotionally.
And so when I, you know, when I had to relive through EMDR, you have to kind of relivethis, the scenario, it was very traumatizing for her.
And she ended up seeing my other son later on.
So I was
still in contact with her.
And when I was talking to her about his treatment, and what we could do next for him, shesaid, you know, after I saw you, I needed a little bit of help.
(16:28):
And I went to see this person for psychedelic work.
And he's under Yeah, this person is underground because MDMA is the thing that's primarilyrecommended for PTSD and trauma, it, it provides this kind of like, hmm,
(16:49):
softness or buffer from from reliving the trauma, you relive it.
But it there's like a softness so you can.
And, and so he did these, he used MDMA and a lot of different things.
So I ended up seeing him actually, about my son, my son did not end up doing that work atall.
(17:11):
But I was like, maybe I want to do this instead of ketamine.
And so that's how I entered in and um
Okay.
Yeah.
And I think generally it's a similar effect that you're getting, cause it's all about egodissolution.
That softness you're talking about.
This is what Dr.
Casey talked about in episode three with the ketamine.
(17:33):
It's an ego dissolution agent.
It allows you to kind of detach from yourself and look at your problems objectivelywithout the emotion, without the judgment, without all the existing traumas that came
before it, all that stuff.
It gives you a clear.
vision of your own problems so that you can actually like face them and deal with them andfigure out how to fix them in a real way without losing yourself in the emotion and losing
(18:00):
yourself in the memories and things like that is really what the psychedelics are doingfor you in that case, as far as I, as far as what I know about the whole thing.
And you know, MDMA is not considered a classic psychedelic.
There's not, you know, hallucinations or anything or like, you know, visual changes oranything like that.
Um, but what MDMA did is, and I've used it multiple times.
(18:24):
Um, I've done four, four formal journeys.
I've, I would also include some of the breath work I've done as like, like it feels asit's the same thing as psychedelic work.
Absolutely.
And, um,
I've also done combo, is like a, it's a Amazon frog poison, which I can talk about uhseparately, but yeah.
(18:50):
I even heard of that one, so.
Cool toads in the rain forest.
Yeah.
uh
But yeah, what MDMA did specifically is it would bring me back to a memory and it takesyou straight like, I don't even know where I'm gonna go.
And then it takes me straight to where I need to go.
And I'll revisit something and then I'll just have a huge somatic for hours somaticrelease about it.
(19:16):
So like my first session, I literally gave birth to my grief for Noah, like I was havingcontractions and birth like,
birthing this grief and it was huge somatic release.
was horrible.
just, I would repeat things ah that had been kind of ingrained in my head.
(19:37):
Like I was so scared.
I didn't know where you went.
I'm so sorry.
Like, know, whatever.
And then my whole body would just kind of relax and I would have this understanding of itall, this compassion for myself, for the situation, like a bigger picture.
And, that one was so beautiful because, because I found Noah, I kept saying, found him.
(20:04):
my God, I can feel him in, can feel his energy inside of my body.
I felt his energy and so, and I was like, I just kept saying, I found him.
Oh my God, thank God I found him.
Cause I didn't know where he went and I was so scared.
And, um, that was transformational for me.
Transformational.
(20:25):
you know, um
God, just I'm like, yeah.
I mean, and I have a million stories like that from my journey is that these huge ahas andNoah will talk to me specifically with MDMA about things that happened here on earth, like
uh surrounding his death.
(20:47):
And so I will have these insights into what that was like for him or um yeah.
So that's MDMA and then
I have used that at the beginning of some other journeys just because I have told myguide, I'm like, I just really love it because A, I don't feel like I have the capacity to
(21:11):
feel physically to have the somatic releases without it.
Like I need this kind of supportive container for it and I get the messages from Noah.
And so I really like that.
em Yeah, yeah.
But I have done, I don't know you wanna go through the different psychedelics I've usedand how they've been helpful or I don't, yeah.
(21:35):
I mean, I'm interested in all of it, so.
The other doesn't really have experience.
I have no experience with psychedelics.
I mean, I think I did mushrooms a couple of times when I was in high school at a fish orGrateful Dead show.
I had done nothing, literally nothing up until this point.
(21:56):
Yeah, yeah, so I don't know.
I'm like, I'm fascinated by it.
I'm absolutely terrified of it as well.
So I'm but then I hear stories like this.
Well, I would say this is what I have to say about it because I'm not a proponent of justgo-do psychedelics.
I'm not because I think it can end up real bad.
You have to know what you're doing with them.
(22:17):
Yes.
That's very much a big disclaimer for anyone out there who hasn't gotten into this.
Don't just go get a bunch of mushrooms and eat a handful of them.
That is not what you do.
Find someone who knows how it works and is respectful of the process and have them helpyou through it the first couple of times.
And then you'll know.
Yeah, and you know, this is what my guide tells me that because after a couple ofjourneys, I said, you know, do you think I could do some on my own?
(22:44):
And he said, well, you could, but I think you might be underwhelmed compared to what we'vedone, because when he's with me, we have 12 hours together.
We go out to a dome in the woods and yeah.
MDMA is not a short trip.
rounds of it too.
So I will take a break about the day.
(23:06):
Oh, OK.
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
OK.
My friend is literally right now on a ayahuasca retreat up in Utah for the next week.
So and that's not her first one.
She's actually I got to try to get her to come on the show.
And and she uses it for different reasons.
Trauma PTSD.
She's stroke survivor.
So like stuff like with brain trauma.
But anyway, I love hearing about all of this.
(23:29):
So it's 12 hours.
I haven't heard that.
OK.
some of it, I mean, it's a 12 hour, we have between eight and 12 hours together, dependingon what I'm doing.
But we it's a very sacred process.
And it's contained.
And so he said, you know, I feel safe enough to have all this stuff come up, right?
(23:49):
Because I have him, I have a safe container, I know, you know, generally what to expectwith that.
And so I think that is really important.
The other pieces, I meet
I've met with him four or five, six times before a journey.
And we're going through just emotional stuff.
(24:09):
used IFS, internal family systems therapy and some other somatic thing, know, breaths andbreath work or combo, the frog poison.
em then we have the journey.
And then I meet with him four or five, six times after to integrate, to take what came outof that and really process it.
(24:33):
that much different than Dr.
Casey's process and his ketamine clinic.
Yeah.
Honestly.
Okay.
You meet with them and figure it out and then you do the course of treatments with thedrug and then you follow up with the psychiatric treatments after figure out what it gave
you and how to work with it.
And is your is your guide?
he I mean, is he like, is he like a clinical psychologist?
(24:55):
Like, do they have any kinds of
underground and so he can't yeah and so there are many I actually haven't
real shaman don't get licensed.
That's the reality of the thing.
Right.
is and you know, the thing too is I mean, I'm glad that the psilocybin is legal here, butyou have to do it in like an office building.
(25:20):
good.
That doesn't seem...
I die in the woods, man.
Yeah.
yeah, very sterile and clinical and I even if I was doing psilocybin, which is legal, Iwouldn't do it legally because I don't want that environment.
so
So it's only legal in the clinics.
oh It's not like you can walk around on the street with it.
(25:42):
It has to be in the clinic.
Well, you can and not get arrested unless it's over a certain amount here.
Oh, okay.
everything's kind of decriminalized there.
Yeah, yeah, I'm part of a different animal.
If it didn't rain so much, I'd move there.
know, yeah, it's pretty great in that way.
um, and now
(26:02):
those big fires that are going on there.
A little bit of sarcasm there.
Invasion of the Invisible Dinosaurs
We're all on psilocybin.
they might be.
uh
after my last journey, which is LSD, I was like, gosh, this actually should be in thewater.
(26:25):
Like, it's just such a loving drug, you know, or like substance.
It's I don't like using the word drug.
But yeah, we we typically speak about this as medicine, right?
are medicines.
And yeah, but so so I did that my first journey was just MDMA and it was very somatic.
(26:46):
And I had these ahas.
My second journey
was I used a I started with MDMA, I used a synthetic version of psilocybin, we call itpsilocybin light, I guess.
It's like C2, I don't remember as a bunch of different letters and numbers combined.
And, and then um he did this specifically, because he said it was a trauma informedapproach to ego dissolution.
(27:12):
So we could titrate it, and kind of add like, okay, we're gonna start with this, and we'regonna add a little less see what happens and then
a little listen to what happens.
And so I ended up having an ego dissolution after just that, but I was stuck in it and Iwas really freaking out.
And he then gave me a little bit of ketamine and it took me across and I then wascompletely just dissolved into the one ah which was the most uh transformational
(27:42):
experience I think I've had and
is quite the cocktail.
That would be intense.
And that was that was the whole birthing of your grief.
That was the first journey.
This is the second journey.
So this was a totally different, OK, another very transformational.
This has been life changing for you is what I'm Like without it.
(28:06):
With that one, that journey showed me how everything is necessary.
The light and the dark, the challenges, the joys, how it all plays together and it justhas to be that way.
It all has to be that way.
psychedelics are hard to explain verbally, but that knowing inside of me has made thisbearable.
(28:35):
um Because it's just part of it.
It's just part of this is life.
This is creation creation is that like churning right like everything's changing andchurning and feeding off each other and I wouldn't know the depths of my love for Noah or
my other children if I hadn't lost him.
I wouldn't I didn't I thought I knew I did not know.
(28:59):
I did not know.
Like, yeah, and um
So that journey was, that was my main takeaway from that one.
And I will sit with these for like four or five, six weeks and journal and write and thinkand just sit.
(29:20):
Like your brain is malleable for two to three weeks after these journeys.
So you can create new neural pathways.
It's like, they call it like a snow globe.
So when you take a substance like this, it's like shaking a snow globe.
And now you can,
have like new patterns.
Okay, I see what you're saying.
(29:40):
It's almost like things are moving and creating space that maybe didn't didn't existbefore you kind of shook it up.
That's like what Jessica Tracy on the ketamine, not Jessica Tracy, uh, Lee, Lee call thepatient who she watched her, her neural networks rebuilt themselves behind while she was
on the ketamine sessions, literally watching the neural pathways stream through her ownbrain and rewire itself.
(30:09):
I mean, it just kind of goes to show you like how much more capacity our brains have.
Like if we could just kind of get out of our own way and it sounds like psychedelic.
Yeah.
That's what it is.
You got to be able to look at yourself objectively like that, where you're not judgingyourself.
And you, so you can see the truth of your actual situation and see why you're doing whatyou're doing.
(30:33):
It is, it's a truth teller is really what it is.
And I would say the biggest thing I've learned from it, because you have to do this to nothave a bad trip is how to surrender.
oh
It's like floating down a river.
You got to just relax into it and let it take you.
(30:53):
You know what I mean?
If you fight it, you're going to drown.
I feel like I hear it a lot.
Yeah, that kind of concept of surrender.
uh Ryan and Shelby, who run our liquid breath work classes here, which I'm doing onWednesday, they came on the show and talked it's liquid breath work isn't like somatic.
It's kind of like uh a more gentler version of breath work.
(31:14):
uh
There's a very guided meditation sort of aspect to it.
Well, yeah, and I've I felt hypnotized.
I felt like in a very deep state of meditation the last time I did the class with them.
But um Ryan talks a lot about surrender.
Like there's like this concept of surrender.
And I feel like that's like constantly in my head now from all the people that I'msurrounding myself.
(31:36):
Honestly, think that is like the number one lesson in life.
Like, like if I didn't surrender to my reality, I would be stuck in constant torture.
Yeah.
You gotta let go.
you have to surrender to what is, or you are tortured.
(32:00):
that the key to a happy existence is accepting the universe as it chooses to be.
That's Daoist thing.
That's very Dao.
Yeah, the thing that was the other thing with that second journey was like, oh, everythingjust is it's not good or bad.
It just is.
(32:20):
We create stories around everything, but it actually just isn't our perception is whatcreates reality.
All those labels are artificial.
realness of things is what you find on these journeys you're taking.
Jeremy would love this conversation today.
I let go 15 years ago.
(32:40):
I've been in a flow state for 15 years.
I've pretty much just been doing what feels right for the last 15 years.
I haven't had a real boss, a real job.
I haven't waited for a paycheck.
I do a job and I get paid.
Mm-hmm.
This is where, that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing now.
I'm like, whatever the universe throws at me, I'll say yes to you.
I'll just, surrender.
(33:02):
know, but, but I'm not gonna, hmm, yeah, make, try to make anything.
I mean, the illusion of control is, it's an illusion, right?
So.
Yeah, the more actual control you think you have over your life, the more you just lie inyourself.
Well, you know, interest
can happen at any time.
(33:24):
Right, we have zero control over it.
Like I never would have thought this is my life, you know?
And here we are.
you know, Noah's birthday was on Friday.
He would have been 18.
And I haven't finished integrating this last journey I had, and I am having some hangupswith it.
I think I need a little help.
(33:44):
It was an LSD journey.
it really, I thought, I told Noah before the journey, I was like, okay, buddy, show mewhere you are.
Take me on a tour.
And I did a pretty high dose of LSD.
And you know what happened?
I didn't go anywhere.
I was the most present I've ever been.
I was clear.
(34:05):
I wasn't altered.
I was so present.
Everything was light and crisp.
And I was just there.
And it felt blissful.
I was in a bliss state in my yurt.
just there.
It was insane.
I had just taken a ton of LSD.
Like I didn't go anywhere.
(34:26):
I was just it was so beautiful.
And I thought this is it.
I don't need to go anywhere.
It's here.
Whatever we're looking for.
It's not out there.
It's literally right here right now in presence.
And that was huge.
And it opened my heart so much my heart just
(34:48):
And that's been hard coming back into this society of like, like, hierarchy and greed andlike all these things.
And I'm just like, ah, how do I, so that's the integration piece, right?
is
This is why the government doesn't want us to do LSD.
Because it makes us realize that we don't need the government.
(35:11):
That's really why they don't like psychedelics, because it makes us very anti-control andanti-government, know, anti-structure like that.
It makes us realize we could just live our own lives.
We don't need this legal.
It was legal and it was used therapeutically for many years.
The government got scared and they they made it illegal again, but this is not new.
(35:36):
This is not new that this is like a very uh hopeful, you know, and powerful method forpeople to.
open up and open their eyes and really see what's going on in their life and in the world.
And yeah, I mean, I don't know.
And this breathwork is blowing my mind to this, this man um just came from the Amazon toPortland, he's visiting for a week.
(36:03):
And he led this breathwork session.
And I had not had one like this before.
I've done several different kinds, but this was different.
It's a primordial breathwork.
was created by
Amazonians have used it for
And em I connected with Noah in a way I have not been able to.
(36:25):
And like normally Noah will drop impressions in my head and I'll kind of have thoughts popin.
But I have not been able to have a conversation with him.
And during this breath work, it was probably an hour and a half in, it was quite a longbreath work session.
(36:45):
And all of a sudden I was like, my God, you're there.
we can have a conversation.
He said, yeah, I'm here.
And I was like, okay, what should we talk about?
And then I had this awareness.
There's nothing to talk about.
None of it matters.
We're just together in love, you know?
Like he's just with me in loving energy and I'm with him in loving energy and that is allthat matters.
(37:10):
Like nothing else does.
And I've been grasping for like, I just want to talk to you, just show yourself, you know?
And like,
It was so clear to me.
I don't need that anymore.
Yeah.
That that's the healing process, That you've both come to peace with where you're at.
(37:31):
Yeah, that you have these opportunities, right?
That you have these moments.
Can you imagine if you didn't?
You know what?
No, I mean, that's what I'm saying.
And this is why I actually have.
I haven't.
It's in beginning stages.
But, you know, this work has been very expensive for me.
And thank God I have savings.
But I would say for just myself, I've spent about $15,000 on a psychedelic in the pastyear.
(38:00):
And that's not accessible.
It's not.
It's not okay.
Like there are so many other grieving parents that I know that I know benefit from thisand they can't afford it.
um, yeah.
unfortunate.
People should have access to this stuff.
Yeah, we'd be a lot healthier in mind and body and soul and all those things if we couldjust get people connected with the right kind of care, right?
(38:29):
The right kind of support that they need.
And just and even regulate it but to me it uh plays into the whole concept of I mean yourstory is such a perfect example for this let's get rid of those pills that we don't even
really understand what the hell they're doing to people and replace them with thesepsychedelics that we know how they work and you have you get them from the doctor and you
(38:53):
do it in the clinic and you still can't just go buy it at the store you still can't justdo it on your own that's fine
As much as I think we should be able to do that, at least make it available through thedoctors.
1000%.
And I've been microdosing for three or four months now.
After I did my psilocybin journey, I microdose, I started microdosing and that has beentransformational for me as well.
(39:22):
I feel more clear headed, I feel more connected just to the world, you know, where I caneasily start to be feel a little disconnected.
and like depressed, you know, I would say the journeys have for sure decreased myflashbacks, my PTSD symptoms.
(39:46):
That was my main goal going in.
That's why I started doing it.
Now I feel like
Got way more out of it, obviously.
Now I'm like, tell me all the messages universe, you know, I just love it.
It's so beautiful every time it's so impactful.
But yeah, so the microdosing, know, instead of antidepressants, the microdosing is sobeautiful and it's natural and you don't have to, there's no withdrawal.
(40:14):
There's no like, if I miss today, I might feel suicidal.
There's no addiction.
m
Do you think like, obviously you've been going about this, doing the MDMA, the psilocybin,you all the different kind of journeys that you've been on.
Do you feel like the intensity of those in terms of maybe just like how often you're doingit will kind of taper off at some point, or is that kind of how it's supposed to work?
(40:43):
And then it becomes kind of maintenance.
uh
think so.
From what I have seen with other people, they might do one or two a year.
I was doing one every two months for this past year.
And even now I feel like, okay, I think I can slow down and really, really integrateeverything.
(41:05):
But it's such a gift every time that I don't want to stop doing it.
I thinking inside of me is like, think I wouldn't want to either because to be able, youknow, being a mom, I've got two boys who through, through your trauma and loss, I look at
so very, especially Zane because they're really close in age and I'm like so close withhim.
(41:31):
And I just, can't imagine never not being able to have that.
And I would do anything to, right.
So I get it.
Like,
Yeah, I just keep doing it too.
It really does depend on the person too though.
Cause like I have a buddy with military grade PTSD who started doing just microdoses ofpsilocybin.
(41:55):
That's it.
And after like a week he was like, my God, I think I'm okay.
And he just, he does a microdose every day, you know, and for him that's perfect.
I like to do, like you just said, like twice a year, I do a little more of that than thatat a time.
But I like about twice a year, either go into the woods or I go to a concert for some livemusic and I have myself a little ceremony and I come out feeling so much better.
(42:28):
Like so much better.
The last six months of stress is gone.
know, right.
But if you want to get into it fresh, that's why you need some, you do need yourself a bitof a shaman, some kind of guide.
to show you the different ways and the different levels and what to expect and how toactually go through it.
(42:50):
And then once you experience it, you'll know, okay, so I'm more of a microdose or I'm moreof a macrodose.
And even which psychedelic because some people are like, Oh, yeah, LSD makes me reallynot.
I don't have a good trip on that or whatever, you know.
The friendliest one is the psilocybin.
uh
(43:11):
the most scared of.
Well, it's a weird drug because it really depends on dose.
If you do just a little bit, like a microdose of psilocybin literally just turns on yourhappy switch, you're not going to get much else except you're going to smile more and
laugh easier kind of thing for a while.
If you do like three plus grams of psilocybin, that's going to the other side.
(43:33):
That's a full on hallucinogenic journey.
Like it's a different world.
Like there's a certain threshold of psilocybin where once you go past that, it's a
different experience.
It's kind of like the ketamine.
Okay.
Where, you know, if you get it from Dr.
Casey, it's a, it's a psychedelic thing.
If you go to the hospital for surgery, they give it to you and it's a whole differentlevel.
They're full on knocking you out for a while.
(43:55):
like, ah so it's like a different kind of trip lasts longer and more intense and thingslike that.
But it's like a whole different experience, you know?
So you got to know your doses and you got to know what drugs you're dealing with.
You got to know your doses and you know, go into it.
wise.
So, cause it's the people who have the bad trips go into it, not knowing what they'redoing and they take too much of the wrong thing and they do it in the wrong situation.
(44:19):
And all of sudden all goes bad.
Yeah.
And the thing I say too is, you know, I don't know if this is just a Portland thing, butkids are youth, teenagers are experimenting with psychedelics just like they are other
drugs.
And we need to open the conversation around them because if we're kind of like gatekeepingthis information about like how to do it safely, how to get, you know, how to access it
(44:45):
and make sure that it's clean and what you should be taking and how to do it safely.
like these kids are gonna have bad trips and that can be, you know, that can betraumatizing to some extent.
so I just really like, I am writing this third book on my psychedelic experiences, uhresearch behind it, the history behind it.
(45:10):
And I want it to come from somebody like me, because I'm like, listen, I'm a mom, I have aPhD, I've lived in suburbia for like the longest time.
business too you know you your massage
And I've had this trauma and this is how it has transformed my life.
Like I'm not, you know, some wackadoo or whatever.
(45:31):
Like this is very transformation.
I did my research and I have done it responsibly and, um and I want more people to knowabout it.
Yeah.
And there's even more applications.
got another friend who, uh, had cluster headaches, chronic cluster headaches, kind of likemigraines.
He researched it and he found that you can break the cycle of your chronic headaches withpsilocybin.
(45:57):
When he felt one coming on, like before it actually hit, you got to like get a littleahead of it.
take them up just like it was basically a microdose that he was taken.
And, uh, I think it was like three times in a row, he caught it and like the psilocybinliterally like
stopped the headache from happening and he did a few times in a row and then they juststopped.
And it was like, and he used to get them all the time.
(46:18):
And then like a year later he felt it coming back and he did the same thing and like acouple of years later, but like he basically cured, comes back around a little bit
sometimes, but he basically cured his chronic headaches with psilocybin.
Like there's, there's so many applications to this.
We don't even know cause they won't do the research cause they don't want to legalize itor turn it into official medicine.
(46:39):
Yeah, there's an organization called Maps.
was just gonna say maps.
Yes, I know who they are.
I want them to come on the show.
Yeah, I know.
They've been on my list.
I found out about them actually at the Devin company shows at the sphere that I went tobecause they had four nonprofits that you could choose to like donate to.
(47:00):
And I stood there talking to them forever.
What
Yeah, they're the I don't remember.
I don't know what it stands for.
yeah, like advocacy.
So they're the ones who have been pushing through the research on MDMA, which almostlegalized federally about a year ago.
And then the pharmaceutical companies made sure that didn't happen.
(47:23):
Of course.
Yeah, but they can
it and patent it and make a billion dollars off it will
Yeah, but it was almost there because they had done a lot of clinical trials at maps hadsponsored and raised funds and You know had these clinical trials done.
So maps is a great advocacy organization for psychedelics and MDMA Therapeutically, youknow to be used therapeutically.
(47:50):
So yeah, they're great.
And I Don't know where else to get information.
I mean there are
tons of studies there really are because the VA actually has used some of this for PTSDand
Terrence McKenna.
The gods.
Michael Pollan just wrote some books on the whole psychedelics in your brain.
(48:13):
Well, there was something on the news not that long ago.
was like NBC News.
It was like something big.
And it was all of these veterans that were down in, I believe, Costa Rica or something.
And it was about their experiences with using psychedelics.
They were there for a week.
All of them had various levels of PTSD, you know, from being in combat and whatnot.
ah
(48:33):
And they were all just like, wow, you know, for the most part, I think there might've beenlike one person that was like, yep, nope, that's not for me, which that's fine, right?
Yeah.
Well, my friend I was talking about who's on the Ayahuasca retreat right now in Utah,which is not her first one.
She was, she's a veteran as well.
So, which is some of her PTSD um stems from that.
(48:57):
So, uh
So yeah, she would fall into that category.
yeah, hopefully I can get her to come on the show and talk about all of her experiences.
It really is a public health thing.
mean, you know, for soldiers, for parents who have lost children, like the rate of earlydeath is like, it's like three times as high, you know, and it's just, if we really want
(49:24):
to help people and care about their suffering, this is a really promising avenue and towithhold it,
and not have it available is unconscionable in my opinion.
Yeah, it's criminal.
It really is.
It is criminal.
If I didn't have access to this, I do not know if I would be alive.
I know I said that before and I really mean it.
(49:46):
do not know.
This trauma is so severe.
Like, how am I supposed to live if I if I didn't have these ahas and awakenings and mymind opening and my heart opening and the self compassion and all of it?
Like, I don't know how that would have happened.
You know, and yeah, so
So I'm not shy about talking about it.
(50:08):
I w I'm so glad you guys are having this podcast and, ah I want to get the word out.
We think it's important.
You know, I've worked in the healthcare industry for a long time and I've seen a lot ofpeople em not be served by it for a lot of different reasons.
em Yeah, there's so many things that are not right.
(50:28):
And then there's something like this that gives people such a pathway to hope and lifeand, you know, being able to thrive again, right?
Like, and not, not all apart.
you know, you can still
where you're at right now.
I looking how successful you are considering what you went through and that was what hassaved you.
(50:49):
It's not Yeah, I would say it's not like, yeah, you don't just take it and you're better.
It is the integration piece that's critical to like the really processing what yourmessages were and what you got from it.
And that's why the soul workbook like, that's what I how I see this being used is like,after after psychedelic journey.
(51:14):
It's like super short, there's like five page, know, it's like on control or fear orsurrendering or suffer, you know, connection with your own innate like somatic wisdom,
like all of these things.
And then like integration prompts, because if you don't have a person like I had, or youcan't afford to do all the sessions with a person like I had, there's gotta be stuff like
(51:37):
this to help you like integrate it, you know, and really use it so that you can
live your life and not feel like you want to have to die, you know?
Yeah.
It's possible.
Before we wrap it up, because I know you were about to say that, I just realized I misseda question I really have to cover.
(52:00):
The frog poison.
Oh, that's right.
You said he gave it to you in preparation for the MDMA journey.
I'm just wondering the actual effect and application of the drug poison that you're using.
So, yeah, I, was actually before my LSD journey that he wanted to use that because itreally, it's a purification that opens you up, um, to be able to, yeah, just receive more.
(52:30):
And so it, you just, you burn tiny, tiny little holes in your skin and you apply the frogpoison to the holes and it makes you immediately.
be very sick.
And you throw up, you drink a lot of water, you drink like two liters of water rightbefore.
(52:54):
And you throw up you might I don't know each I've done it three times and each time hasbeen different.
But there's a really amazing like clarity that comes to you afterwards.
And it might be about something you don't even you didn't think you even needed to, youknow, have clarity on but it it
(53:14):
has its own innate wisdom, the combo does.
It's spelled K-A-M-B-O.
So it's like a really fast effect kind of thing.
immediate and then within an hour it's done.
Almost like a DMT sort of thing.
I was just gonna say, yeah, that sounds almost...
Different but in the same genre it sounds like.
face swells up like a And your voice gets real deep too.
(53:42):
No way.
Okay, that's so crazy.
Okay, he's got a psychedelic fuck.
Not too many I haven't
Yeah, you're gonna have to go you're gonna have to go up to Portland and and get with her
I've been wanting to get up there anyway, just in case you need another reason.
Well, OK, well, I'm glad you asked that question because we did forget to go back and talkabout that.
(54:06):
That's a new one.
That's a new one.
um Yeah, and I and I'm always the time checker.
Sorry, that's my job.
That's been a long, didn't we?
Yeah.
We always do.
We yeah, it totally is.
And I think there is so much to cover here.
uh But before we let you go, I want to I do want to I will put this in the show notes too.
(54:27):
I want to mention you've got two books.
So you have Noah Grant's Hope, 231 Days of a Mother's Transformation, much of what we'vebeen talking about here, which is great.
And then the soul work, oh a field guide to to freedom.
Those are the two that you have now.
You've got a third one you're working on.
So that's exciting.
um
(54:48):
When that's out there, we'll have to have to like retro go back and add it to the shownotes.
You have a link.
So we have.
we'll just have a back on so she can talk about the book
Or yeah, that's true.
We can just have you back on because we do like to bring people back.
But before we close out, though, um you have learned a lot.
You have obviously explored parts of your mind and your soul and the universe.
um That's so cool, by the way.
(55:11):
I'm feeling less scared about psychedelics now that I've talked to you about it.
um But what kind of wisdom?
What kind of wisdom would you want to share with with our listeners about kind ofeverything that you've learned and
I don't know.
I just feel like you have some in there that maybe you've already even shared it.
Well, I mean, I just think this is what I keep saying.
(55:33):
I have two things that have just been on repeat for me em since Noah passed.
And one is get real.
Let's just be real.
Let's be real with each other.
Let's be real about what's going on.
Let's be real about what's helping, what's not helping, how we're feeling.
um You know, with suicide, especially.
(55:57):
Yeah, we just don't want to talk about it.
and um we don't want to talk about the depths of our pain.
And there are a lot of people who have these thoughts and have these feelings.
It is not uncommon.
It's not.
And if we can talk about it, the pressure cooker kind of releases a little bit of thepressure.
(56:18):
And we can, yeah, I just wrote a post about this the other day.
um And yeah, can, Dr.
Tiffany Ryan on Instagram, like I post a lot about all of this stuff, but the,
The key is most people who attempt suicide will then act on it like five minutes to threehours after they've had the thought.
(56:43):
And so if we can actually say the thought out loud to someone who is not gonna react like,you know, crazy, who's gonna sit there and be with us and listen to us, or even just be,
not listen, if you don't even wanna talk, just be, until the...
that intensity passes, now we have the window of opportunity for the deep work.
(57:05):
And that's my second thing.
So get real, be real, let's just be freaking real with each other people, have theconversations.
And then it's the deep work.
We cannot mask it with pills and 50 minute therapy sessions where we vent.
Like this, that is not the way.
I feel.
very strongly that is not the way and whether psychedelics are your entry point into thedeeper work or not, the deeper work has to happen and that's why I soul work.
(57:34):
Like it has to happen or you will continue to suffer.
People will be suffering.
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be psychedelics.
It can be psychotherapy with the right doctor.
It can be primal screen therapy.
liquid breath work like we've been doing or some other
You got to find what works for you, but you have to find what works for you.
(57:55):
You're never going to get to work through it.
Yeah.
That's a great, great message to put out there is, mean, maybe it's not this, but you gotto find something.
Cause if you don't, if you don't deal with it, it's just going to eat you alive.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, and community is so important with that.
And so finding your community of whoever is dealing with it the way you're dealing with itor doing the inquiry the way you want to do the inquiry, like, that's so important.
(58:20):
And yeah, those are my two things.
Perfect.
So great, great, great notes to end on.
Thank you so much for coming on.
This has been an extremely and I, and I thought I knew a lot about what was going on.
I feel like even your posts have been so revealing and open and very, um, honest andvulnerable, but I feel like now talking to you, like, I really get it.
(58:46):
Yeah, yeah, I don't put as much detail about the psychedelic work.
I'll talk about my ahas, but not the details of the actual like experience.
But eh there it's profound.
The more we talk about it, the less stigma there will be and more people hopefully willliterally open their minds to doing this kind of work for themselves.
(59:12):
Yeah, exactly.
love the stigma lifting.
Oh, yeah.
It's great.
Definitely.
Awesome.
Well, thank you again.
Yeah, this is I'm so glad you came on.
Thanks for joining us on the Healthcare Uprising.
Make sure to hit those like and subscribe buttons before you go and take a moment to thinkof a friend and hit that share button.
(59:37):
You can find us on all the major audio platforms and we've got video on YouTube andPatreon, patreon.com slash healthcare uprising if you want to watch us in action.
You can also find us on social media on LinkedIn, Blue Sky, Instagram, and Facebook.
Just search healthcare uprising to find us.
And if you're a new company or creator with a cool new product for the healthcare space,or if you're someone with a personal healthcare journey and you'd like to share it with us
(01:00:01):
here at the uprising, please email us at healthcare uprising at gmail.com and we'll getback to you about coming on the show.
That's all for this dose of healthcare uprising.
Till the next time, keep looking for the good in the world.
but sometimes it's where you least expect it.
(01:00:58):
This has been a Shut Up production.
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