May 1, 2024 • 35 mins
This week, we speak with Beyond the Spectrum’s BCBA, Dawn Wisniewski. Dawn walks us through the basics of ABA therapy, strategies that are and are not used, and difficulties in providing therapy. Later in the episode, Dawn busts ABA therapy myths, discusses what families should know when selecting an ABA provider, and shares how ABA techniques are applied in real-world settings.
Dawn also co-hosts a monthly meeting called the Community Insight Series with past podcast guest, Dr. Valerie Roth. In April’s meeting, they cover guardianship and what parents should know as their children grow up. Keep an eye out for May’s Community Insight Series!
Timestamps:
(00:00) Introducing Dawn Wisniewski, BCBA
(01:50) What is ABA therapy?
(05:50) Self advocacy
(07:20) Techniques/strategies used in the field
(10:15) How does data collection help with treatment planning?
(13:30) Difficulties providing therapy
(15:15) How do you work with other professionals to help your learners?
(18:15) Misconceptions/myths about ABA therapy
(22:20) What should families know when picking an ABA provider?
(23:20) What steps should families take to get ABA therapy started?
(26:50) Success stories
(29:30) BCBA requirements
(30:42) Examples of ABA techniques being applied in real world settings
(32:15) Community Insight Series - Next meeting is about Guardianship
Join us every month for a new episode of Helping Families Go Beyond. Visit beyondthespectrum.org for more information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome back to Helping Families Go Beyondthe podcast by Beyond the Spectrum.
I'm your host, Loryn Carpenter, and todaywe'll be speaking with Dawn Wisniewski,
who is our very own onsite BCBAat Beyond the Spectrum.
Now, BCBA stands for BoardCertified Behavior Analyst
and she works in the ABA therapy field.
(00:22):
ABA therapy stands for AppliedBehavioral Analysis,
and we'll be talking more about thatwith her in just a few moments.
All right.
Well, Miss Dawn, we are so happy to haveyou here on the podcast for this episode.
I'm excited to talk with you, andthank you for taking the time to join us.
And so I was wondering if you couldintroduce yourself and talk a little bit
(00:45):
about your experience with the schooland being a BCBA.
So, I'm Dawn Wisniewski, and I am a boardcertified behavior analysts.
I've been in the fielda long time, like over 20 years. So,
but, I,
(01:06):
was a school teacher
and a clinician,and I also, provide training
and positive behavior supportand classroom management to schools.
so here at Beyond the Spectrum,
I do exactly that.
I was a clinician, and I still am.
(01:26):
I will be,doing some clinical work again shortly.
And I've been working with the teachersand the directors
and the parents and families and kids and,
helping the students becomeas independent as possible
and help them with social significantbehaviors.
That's great.
And so that's awesome that you havethe ABA
(01:49):
experience as a BCBAand then also the classroom experience.
That's such a good blend,especially for the students here.
And, I was wondering if you could providea brief
overview of what ABAtherapy is and who it can benefit.
Okay.
So thatthat's like a huge loaded question.
and they actually reallyall the questions are
(02:11):
because there's such a historywith ABA therapy.
There's there's so many componentsto ABA therapy,
from how it started to how it's usedand applied today.
But really, if we want to really get downto the basics
of what ABAtherapy is, we you know, there's
(02:32):
the talk of applied behavior analysisand then there's ABA therapy.
So with ABA therapy where we're taking
all that scientific research,
throughout the past, and we're using it
and applying it to individuals,
all individuals and, you know,
(02:54):
increasing those,
socially significant behaviorsthat we do want
so we can all be better
members of society or not better members.
I don't want to say thatbecause there's no one that's bad.
It's just thathow do we contribute to society?
(03:14):
How can we be independent, and howcan we give something back to our society?
Because if we don't do that well,
we usually don't feel the drive
to be happy and successfuland to form relationships and live.
It sounds like ABA can be appliedin a lot of real world settings.
(03:39):
Like, you can shape behaviorsto make them work for each individual
and make them independentand kind of on their own path.
When we look, when we look at ABA therapy,
when we look at that,so is independence important?
Yes it is.
But in in our world, when we
(04:01):
when we talk about socially mediated,
interactions, well, we're all human.
So we, we need to interact like everythingwe do, just about everything
we do is somehow connected to a personor people.
Okay.
Everything that we do, from our jobs
(04:22):
to the buildingsthat we use, to the beds that we sleep in,
we have that.
And those are those are in ABA therapy.
That's what we can control and manipulatemore to be able to,
you know, get those behaviorsthat we would like to see increased.
(04:45):
Now. Right.
We can't look at things internally so much
because a lot of our learnerscan't explain it.
But if they can explain it, sure,we will absolutely take a look at that.
And that's why in ABA therapyyou hear all the time, well,
we need to rule out the physical.
We need to rule out the physicaland the reason why we need to rule out
(05:07):
the physical is becausesometimes you can't tell us what's
going on inside, what's hurting you,or why you're acting that way.
If you have a headacheor something like that, or maybe there's
something biological that can be fixed
with a different type of medicinebecause we are therapy,
(05:28):
so we're considered a treatment,
but maybe it can be fixedwith some other treatment, and then
we can work on those socially
significant behaviors, which by the way,that also includes communication.
Like it.
It's all in there.
Anything to do with other people.
It's social. It's socially significant.
Okay. Wonderful.
(05:49):
And so it sounds like,
people that work in the ABA
therapy field will work on,like self-advocacy with clients.
Absolutely.
And that is such a goal.
Okay.
So boy, this is a lot of good stuff.
But like,if so, when we talk about self-advocacy,
(06:09):
we have to get the learner to a pointwhere they can express themselves.
and there's different modalities
that we can useif they cannot vocally speak.
There's written language,there's pictures,
sign language, gestures.
Like there's so many different wayswe can communicate, that
(06:35):
better than, let's say,
hitting yourself on the head,you know, or hurting yourself.
So we have to helpget that type of communication out.
And it also has to docommunication has so much to do
with them, people understandingwhat's being said.
(06:55):
And that's a whole different skillbecause you got to process information
and then follow through with itand comprehend it.
There's so much going on with that,and we can't get them to self-advocacy
without those little baby stepsof getting them to that point.
Right?
Okay.
(07:15):
So it sounds very incrementalthe way that you all work.
Speaking of that,
what are some of the techniquesthat you see people use in the field?
And, how can those be applied?
So when we talk about
the little steps that we take to build
to greater and larger skills,we call those like discrete trials.
(07:39):
So we will break things down into smallercomponents and then build on it.
And it's really used in a lot of,
teaching strategies.
Also, you know what, when,
teachers teach, they,they use those methods
to your building on your building,the skill.
(08:03):
so, those components are discrete trial.
And some of the strategies that we use,it's really dependent on the individual.
We like to really use,
positive reinforcement.
And we, we like to use.
So it's easier for me to explainif we take away the,
(08:25):
the idea of which is probably going to be
a question or the next. But,
this it's better
to say what we don't do,what we don't do is
we don't use harmful methods
such as like, I don't know where.
Well, I do know where, but that's a wholenother thing historically.
(08:45):
Like people think that we're going to usesome kind of shock treatment,
or we're going to use spankings
or something like that,but we don't use any of that.
What we do iswe use things that they like,
what people like in orderto increase the behavior.
And that we want.
(09:07):
And in science, we have found that, yes,
if we do, if we reinforcewith things that people like,
it's more
likely to maintain that behavior,and it's more likely
that they can get that reinforcementin their environment
without an individual therapistgiving it to them. So,
(09:31):
so basically we're using things
that people like those are the strategies.
It's based on the individual.
It's based on,
the scientific research,the different strategies
that we have researchand found to that have worked.
Right. Okay.
(09:51):
So it sounds very specializedfor each client, which I think can be very
helpful for them.
I think it's greatthat it can be modified that way
so that it can help themreach their own goals.
And so when you're talking about
doing data collection and then analyzingthat data for a client, how can that help
(10:11):
with treatment planningas you're working with the client's goals?
So, the data
so that and that's the big part of
ABA is that we do collect data.
we our, our goals are,
(10:33):
explaining, predicting and,
changing the behavior,describing the behavior also.
So we've got to know what behaviorwe're looking for in ABA.
And we have to be able to describe it.
So then we can measure it,and then we can provide
(10:56):
some sort of strategy or treatment to
change that behavior.
So we're decreasingthose unwanted behaviors
which could be self-injurywhich could be aggression, which could be
property destruction,and replacing with something
that's not harmful to that individualor others.
(11:19):
So, you know, whether it's being able toand most of
it's always communication actually,like how do you ask for something?
How do you tell tell someonewhat's going on or what you need?
The data collection, we will.
So when you take the dataand you monitor it,
(11:39):
what you do is you look at the dataand if it is not working,
then you need to do something different
and change it to help that person,the learner.
Okay.So that's what the data is all about.
And it should be monitored closely.
And because behaviors are always changing,guess what?
Those strategies will change.
(12:00):
Because if someone that's is advancing,you're not going to leave.
Let's say your target isthe person will ask
be able to request fiber items.
You know, like water, maybeusing the bathroom, maybe getting food.
Well, once they master thatand you see that
(12:22):
some of those unwanted behaviors decrease,what are you going to do?
You're going to look at that dataand then guess what.
You're going to change it.
You're going to update it.
So data collection is all important.
Data collection must happenin order to provide good ABA therapy
okay.
(12:42):
Yeah. Yep.
And I know I've seen some of theI mean I've I know
how meticulous you have to bewith the data collection.
I've seen some of the therapiststhat work around the school
and they have the,the systems on their iPads,
and then they'll have the clickersto keep track of everything.
And, I, I'm just sure that it takes alot of focus and that attention to detail
(13:07):
to be able to monitor all of thatand change it for each. Limb
and that.
Actually,when you said that you brought up a great,
point with
how difficult it is to provide
therapy, mainly because
usually in the perfect world,
(13:30):
it would be somebody collecting the data,
someone,
incorporating the,
what we call thesort of like the instruction,
or demands,
but it's really just kind of likeproviding those instructions.
(13:51):
And then a third person
using prompting strategies
to help that learner respond.
But we don't have that.
We have one person,
given that they're being takenthe data collection and prompting,
which is not as efficient.
(14:14):
So it would be great
if insurance companieswould allow us to have three people do it.
Because you know what?
I think treatmentwould happen a lot faster
and there'd be a lot more success ratewith that.
Absolutely.
Yeah, definitely.
And so having all that responsibilityas a therapist, as an RBT,
(14:36):
also I really like
how you used learner instead,because I think that's more accurate.
I think I've always said client,and I think client might come off
as a little clinical, a little medical,or I learned something new.
Think youwhen you're working with a learner
and you have all of these rolesas an as a BCBA,
(14:58):
how do you work with other professionalslike teachers or other therapists,
and how do you come up with a well-roundedapproach for each learner?
So part of,
ABA therapy
includes working with everyone
that is part of that learner's life.
(15:18):
as much as possible.
Because if we don't do that,we're not going to be able to get like
that carried through and follow through,
and it will only confuse the learner.
so, right.
I think the number one thing isso you have to consider
how the family lives, how they do things.
(15:43):
You have to consider,like if the learner is in school,
we have adult learners also.
But if they're in a school,like how is that environment there?
How does a learner be successfulin a classroom or group environment?
And then we always, always work with,
(16:04):
OTS and speech therapist,physical therapist,
all other therapists, everyone,because they also have some expertise
that we may not have, you know,because there
there is the physical component of like
a big example is with feeding therapy.
(16:25):
Like I get I get a lot of families,you know, oh, they're picky.
Either they won't eat. What can we do?
We can absolutely put in some strategiesin place, but we have to,
consider the physical component too,
because they may have difficultyswallowing.
Sure. They're there.
There's just so many reasonswhy they may find food aversive.
(16:51):
So we have to work togetherand figure those things out.
So yeah.
That's wonderful.
I see that here.
Beyond the Spectrum with you all.
just the amount of collaborationwith people coming together for learners
trying to think of different, like reasons
why something's happeningand possible solutions for it.
(17:12):
And I'm sure it takes a lot.
to like, consider all the differentperspectives from other people.
Yes. And we do at Beyond the Spectrum.
We have, the called a collab lab.
I love that, whereall the professionals here we get together
and once a month and we discusswhat's happening,
(17:36):
what can we dobetter answering questions for each other.
So we absolutely, like,Beyond the Spectrum totally encompasses
that, you know, like the whole community,the whole environment of that learner.
Absolutely. That's great.
So on the
(17:57):
topic of like working with others and,
applying ABA therapyin different settings, have you ever come
across any kind of misconceptionsor myths about ABA
that you could maybe speak the truthabout, or set straight a little bit?
Yeah.
So, that was a little bit when I broughtup the electric shock therapy.
(18:21):
so no, we don't do that.
And that's not somethingthat is in our field of ABA,
that we do or practice now,I'm sure there's other,
probably psychotherapiesor that, that do that.
but we don't,
(18:44):
BCBA.
Also, we're we're not psychiatristsand we're not psychologists.
We we do something entirely different.
Do we work with psychologistsand psychiatrists?
Absolutely.
100%. Yes.
are we considered right now?
(19:04):
Do we fall under the branchof psychology? Yes.
But it really, in my opinion,it should really be a different brain.
Right? Yeah.
but we do all work together.
And the other thing is also,I think a lot of people think that.
Let me start here.
It's unfortunate that peoplehad a bad experience with ABA therapy.
(19:28):
For whatever reason.
They had a bad experience.
And that's very unfortunate.
But if you have a bad experience with
with an ABA therapist,
no matter what their credentials are,just like you, would a medical doctor
get a second opinion, try other people
because you do need to find what
(19:51):
who you match with.
You know, everybody'snot for everybody, and it's
okay to look for someone else.
We don't force.
First of all, you should never be forcinga learner to do anything.
we we use reinforcement,we pair with reinforcement.
We we consider all the environments,all the variables,
(20:15):
to help a learnerfeel safe and comfortable and when we use
physical guidance, that does not meanwe're forcing them to do something.
If they do not want us to touch them,we're not going to touch them.
We only physical guide them to like,let's say they need help with writing.
And a lot of our learnerslearn better if you physically guide them
(20:38):
and then feed yourself from that meaningstop touching them, you know?
But usually theybut we'll only touch them again,
like if they want us toand they find it reinforcing.
Otherwise we're not going to do that.
So I think that's a big misconception.
if they're sayingthey don't want something
and that's a wholenother topic, it's called dissent.
(21:00):
If they're not lettingus know that it's okay,
we're not going to do it or we shouldn'tbe doing it,
but we need to let them understandand and teach them.
And they have to trust us toand accept us.
So there's there's no,
force going on with that with ABA therapy.
(21:22):
Okay. Yeah, absolutely.
Because I know it can be kind of a touchytopic for people.
It can be a little controversial.
So I, I know some peoplemay when they hear the word,
the phrase ABA,it can kind of set some alarms for people,
but I know that it can bea really useful service for learners.
(21:43):
It can be.
It can help them in a lot of differentways. Yes,
it it helps everybody.
It does. It really does. Everybody. Yep.
And it ends up helping the whole family,which I think is the neat thing about it.
yes. And
so and that'skind of what you were talking about.
(22:04):
It kind of answered my questionwith, what families can do,
what they should look out forif they're seeking a reliable provider.
And you kind of answered those,
if you have anything elseyou'd like to kind of advise families
on picking an ABA providerand things they should look out for.
(22:26):
no. That's it.
Like, you canyou can ask them that question,
you know,
you know, just you can askjust a simple question with like,
why do you think ABA therapy,some people are against ABA therapy.
What why whatwhat do you think about that?
And they should be able to tell you thatbecause we're not we don't do that.
(22:49):
And if they don't know that, I,I would kind of read like that.
Like, well,
you know, but absolutely.
Okay. Good to know.
And, when families are wanting to startthat process
to get ABA started,what steps should they take for that?
Is there any kind of like insuranceapprovals or.
(23:10):
I know it can be a messy process, but,
so what does that what do those stepslook like for families?
Okay.
So if you want to get
ABA therapy
specifically and have insurances cover it,
of course,you know, anybody can private pay, right?
(23:31):
It does.
You don't need a diagnosis of any kind.
because again, it is for everybody.
It helps everyone.
You don't necessarilyhave to have a diagnosis, but insurance
companies will only payusually if you have one.
However, I have in the past
got services approved
(23:54):
if I approved medical necessity.
And that means like
you don't necessarily have to go outand get another diagnose assess.
But if we're talking about there's thingsgoing on
like like the self-injurious behaviorsor Sad as we call it,
if that's going on and it, you know,we're going to take care of that.
(24:15):
There's like some serious scary elopementgoing on.
You know, there's we can push hard to,
to try and get those servicescovered through insurance.
But usually you do need a diagnosisunfortunately.
But that's why it workswith insurance companies.
If you have if you have state insurance
or which is Medicaid also, or,
(24:38):
private insuranceor that your employer health insurance,
they all
have a little bit different requirements.
but it will require pre authorization.
But the best thing I can tell youis to get a,
complete comprehensive
(24:58):
diagnostic evaluation done.
because they do require thatand you need, your
a medical doctorto refer you, your pediatrician,
psychiatrist.
They have to, like,give you a prescription, a referral
from the doctor, and then,
(25:21):
and then they'll requestand then the insurance
company will,of course, you'll request, evaluation.
And you'll have to get that theyour ABA company will get that submitted.
So find find a ABA therapy provider
and you can go in and,
fill out all the intake paperworkand then they'll guide you from there.
(25:44):
Absolutely.
And then also if you ever want to actuallyjust find a provider,
you could go to BABC.com
and go to the registryand put in your zip code and it'll ask you
the radius,you know, ten miles, whatever it is,
and you can put it inand all the people will show up
(26:07):
because some of the BCBA do private work,where they're not associated
with the company and some BCBAare associated with the company.
But but they'll
if they want to be contacted,they'll have their information listed.
And then if you want to contactthat person directly, the they'll
point in the right direction.
(26:28):
Okay.
Awesome. That's great to know.
That's great to know for families.
And finally, just to wrap it
all up a little bit,is any kind of success stories
or memorable experiencesyou've had working in the ABA field?
And, there it's so many,
(26:50):
so many that, my goodness.
I not like there's not just onethat stands out in my head
because there's just beenso many incredible moments.
I mean, from just, a learner simply
(27:11):
starting to say a couple words,you know, asking for something,
even if it's one word to,
I have learners that have went into,
inclusion classrooms and testing out,
their standardizedtesting in their age group,
(27:34):
which is phenomenal.
And just toilet training,
using the bathroomand brushing their teeth.
I mean, there's just so many successstories.
And I have to say, like,you know, you have to look at like,
what is successful for that person, right?
(27:55):
Yeah. It's it's not about me.
It's not about mom or dad.
It's not about anything except thatindividual and what's successful for them.
And. In that way, like,
I've just seen so many amazing thingsand just happiness with
(28:16):
when they do somethingindependently or gain independence
or somebody understoodwhat they wanted it.
It's the most amazing thing in the world.
Yeah.
And that is that's actually somethingthat we've talked about in other podcast
episodes before, about how successcan be measured in so many different ways.
(28:37):
And it sounds like ABAtherapy really embodies that as well.
But just how success can be
monumental in so many different waysto so many different students.
It looks so differentdepending on the learner and their needs.
And so I think that is alsoa really cool thing about it
is how many ways things can be celebrated
(28:59):
and how many different waysthat learners can see achievement
through their treatment plan.
So I think that's wonderful.
And I also I just thought of this,
I wanted to ask youwhat the requirements are for BCBA for
like what kind of education and hours
do you have to completefor that certification?
(29:22):
Oh, they keep upping it. So
but yeah, you so you have to complete
a relevant masters degree programor related master's degree program.
They do have a master's degree in ABA
applied behavior analysis specifically.
Okay.
If you're going to be a clinician,an actual ABA
(29:45):
analyst or ABA therapist,
you have to go through,supervision and training.
I gosh, I can'tI think it's 2000 hours now.
It's, it's a lot more.
But you do have to go through a lotand sit for a board.
the board certification exam.
(30:06):
So, there's a lot to it.
I think this is all great information.
All of it.
there there is a question on herethat I really actually like that.
Yeah. You add on here.
Should I read it?
Sure. Yeah.
What are some of the keyprinciples and techniques used in ABA
and how are they applied in real world
(30:28):
world settings?
I'm not going to go into the key
principles and techniquesbecause that that's a lot of stuff.
But yeah, to give an exampleof of a couple of things,
like something that we will useif needed is a token economy system.
We're supposed to fade that out though,
(30:48):
like when we're given a therapythat should be faded out.
It's not set up to be used forever,
but some people do need it.
And then when you think about it
though, we all kind of use it forever.
So our money system, our monetary systemis a token economy system.
(31:11):
We're getting rewarded for working.
And then we take those tokens, money
and we buy stuff that we want.
So we are a token economy system,our monetary system.
So that that's a huge example.
you know, that we always learn aboutand refer to.
(31:34):
So I just wanted to give youthat example of it,
because even though it's somethingthat we don't want
to depend on, we still do.
And we that's our economy system.
Yeah. Wonderful.
I also I wanted to askand I'm, I meant to write it down, but,
(31:55):
I wanted to ask about the communityinsight series that you and Doctor Val do.
And, I was wonderingif you could explain that a little bit
and how you've been serving familiesthrough that?
I know we are going on our third,
going on our third meeting with you guys,
and I just know it'sbeen a great resource for families.
(32:19):
So if you could just talk a little bitabout what you all cover
and how you've been serving familiesthrough that insight series.
So the, it's actually
the one coming upis going to be our second one
or second onebecause that last one that we did,
(32:40):
we had technical difficultiesand it didn't happen.
So, unfortunately, yeah,we couldn't get that resolved in time.
but the first one we did,
we just we open it up to people,
that join, like,just join during your lunch hour.
(33:01):
It's zoom. You don't have to come in.
you can participate
and say somethingif you want to, but you don't have to.
Do you have any questions?
our first meeting kind of,just kind of led into,
toileting.
Toileting in public,you know, and what to do.
(33:22):
so what we want to dois just invite people in to,
to share their knowledge, talk about it,and see if we can offer any strategies
or resources like,
the next onethat we're doing, we are hoping to get,
an expert in on what to prepare for
(33:46):
for adulthood, guardianship,
what kind of funding, as they,you know, enter adulthood
and what you need to do nowto prepare for it. So,
we just trying to pool all our resourcesin the community and pull it in.
We're not trying to sell anything.
we're not looking for peopleto advertise, to sell anything.
(34:10):
We just want to share everythingwe have all our resources.
That's great.
That's wonderful.
I think that covers everything.
I've,wanted to ask you for this episode, but.
So thank you so much for internalall of these questions
and providing so much insightfor the listeners.
(34:31):
I think this is all such helpfulinformation about ABA therapy
and kind of discussing more about itin the techniques that are used.
And, I really appreciate your time.
Well,thank you so much for inviting me to this.
It's a great resource for people also.
So I hope everyone listens to allthe podcasts that you guys put out there.
(34:53):
Absolutely. Oh, it's a good thing.
Thank you so muchfor joining us here today
at Helping Families Go beyond the podcastby Beyond the Spectrum.
For more resources or information, visitour website at Beyondthespectrum.org.
Welcome back to Helping Families Go Beyondthe podcast by Beyond the Spectrum.
I'm your host, Loryn Carpenter, and todaywe'll be speaking with Dawn Wisniewski,
who is our very own onsite BCBAat Beyond the Spectrum.
Now, BCBA stands for BoardCertified Behavior Analyst
and she works in the ABA therapy field.
(00:22):
ABA therapy stands for AppliedBehavioral Analysis,
and we'll be talking more about thatwith her in just a few moments.
All right.
Well, Miss Dawn, we are so happy to haveyou here on the podcast for this episode.
I'm excited to talk with you, andthank you for taking the time to join us.
And so I was wondering if you couldintroduce yourself and talk a little bit
(00:45):
about your experience with the schooland being a BCBA.
So, I'm Dawn Wisniewski, and I am a boardcertified behavior analysts.
I've been in the fielda long time, like over 20 years. So,
but, I,
(01:06):
was a school teacher
and a clinician,and I also, provide training
and positive behavior supportand classroom management to schools.
so here at Beyond the Spectrum,
I do exactly that.
I was a clinician, and I still am.
(01:26):
I will be,doing some clinical work again shortly.
And I've been working with the teachersand the directors
and the parents and families and kids and,
helping the students becomeas independent as possible
and help them with social significantbehaviors.
That's great.
And so that's awesome that you havethe ABA
(01:49):
experience as a BCBAand then also the classroom experience.
That's such a good blend,especially for the students here.
And, I was wondering if you could providea brief
overview of what ABAtherapy is and who it can benefit.
Okay.
So thatthat's like a huge loaded question.
and they actually reallyall the questions are
(02:11):
because there's such a historywith ABA therapy.
There's there's so many componentsto ABA therapy,
from how it started to how it's usedand applied today.
But really, if we want to really get downto the basics
of what ABAtherapy is, we you know, there's
(02:32):
the talk of applied behavior analysisand then there's ABA therapy.
So with ABA therapy where we're taking
all that scientific research,
throughout the past, and we're using it
and applying it to individuals,
all individuals and, you know,
(02:54):
increasing those,
socially significant behaviorsthat we do want
so we can all be better
members of society or not better members.
I don't want to say thatbecause there's no one that's bad.
It's just thathow do we contribute to society?
(03:14):
How can we be independent, and howcan we give something back to our society?
Because if we don't do that well,
we usually don't feel the drive
to be happy and successfuland to form relationships and live.
It sounds like ABA can be appliedin a lot of real world settings.
(03:39):
Like, you can shape behaviorsto make them work for each individual
and make them independentand kind of on their own path.
When we look, when we look at ABA therapy,
when we look at that,so is independence important?
Yes it is.
But in in our world, when we
(04:01):
when we talk about socially mediated,
interactions, well, we're all human.
So we, we need to interact like everythingwe do, just about everything
we do is somehow connected to a personor people.
Okay.
Everything that we do, from our jobs
(04:22):
to the buildingsthat we use, to the beds that we sleep in,
we have that.
And those are those are in ABA therapy.
That's what we can control and manipulatemore to be able to,
you know, get those behaviorsthat we would like to see increased.
(04:45):
Now. Right.
We can't look at things internally so much
because a lot of our learnerscan't explain it.
But if they can explain it, sure,we will absolutely take a look at that.
And that's why in ABA therapyyou hear all the time, well,
we need to rule out the physical.
We need to rule out the physicaland the reason why we need to rule out
(05:07):
the physical is becausesometimes you can't tell us what's
going on inside, what's hurting you,or why you're acting that way.
If you have a headacheor something like that, or maybe there's
something biological that can be fixed
with a different type of medicinebecause we are therapy,
(05:28):
so we're considered a treatment,
but maybe it can be fixedwith some other treatment, and then
we can work on those socially
significant behaviors, which by the way,that also includes communication.
Like it.
It's all in there.
Anything to do with other people.
It's social. It's socially significant.
Okay. Wonderful.
(05:49):
And so it sounds like,
people that work in the ABA
therapy field will work on,like self-advocacy with clients.
Absolutely.
And that is such a goal.
Okay.
So boy, this is a lot of good stuff.
But like,if so, when we talk about self-advocacy,
(06:09):
we have to get the learner to a pointwhere they can express themselves.
and there's different modalities
that we can useif they cannot vocally speak.
There's written language,there's pictures,
sign language, gestures.
Like there's so many different wayswe can communicate, that
(06:35):
better than, let's say,
hitting yourself on the head,you know, or hurting yourself.
So we have to helpget that type of communication out.
And it also has to docommunication has so much to do
with them, people understandingwhat's being said.
(06:55):
And that's a whole different skillbecause you got to process information
and then follow through with itand comprehend it.
There's so much going on with that,and we can't get them to self-advocacy
without those little baby stepsof getting them to that point.
Right?
Okay.
(07:15):
So it sounds very incrementalthe way that you all work.
Speaking of that,
what are some of the techniquesthat you see people use in the field?
And, how can those be applied?
So when we talk about
the little steps that we take to build
to greater and larger skills,we call those like discrete trials.
(07:39):
So we will break things down into smallercomponents and then build on it.
And it's really used in a lot of,
teaching strategies.
Also, you know what, when,
teachers teach, they,they use those methods
to your building on your building,the skill.
(08:03):
so, those components are discrete trial.
And some of the strategies that we use,it's really dependent on the individual.
We like to really use,
positive reinforcement.
And we, we like to use.
So it's easier for me to explainif we take away the,
(08:25):
the idea of which is probably going to be
a question or the next. But,
this it's better
to say what we don't do,what we don't do is
we don't use harmful methods
such as like, I don't know where.
Well, I do know where, but that's a wholenother thing historically.
(08:45):
Like people think that we're going to usesome kind of shock treatment,
or we're going to use spankings
or something like that,but we don't use any of that.
What we do iswe use things that they like,
what people like in orderto increase the behavior.
And that we want.
(09:07):
And in science, we have found that, yes,
if we do, if we reinforcewith things that people like,
it's more
likely to maintain that behavior,and it's more likely
that they can get that reinforcementin their environment
without an individual therapistgiving it to them. So,
(09:31):
so basically we're using things
that people like those are the strategies.
It's based on the individual.
It's based on,
the scientific research,the different strategies
that we have researchand found to that have worked.
Right. Okay.
(09:51):
So it sounds very specializedfor each client, which I think can be very
helpful for them.
I think it's greatthat it can be modified that way
so that it can help themreach their own goals.
And so when you're talking about
doing data collection and then analyzingthat data for a client, how can that help
(10:11):
with treatment planningas you're working with the client's goals?
So, the data
so that and that's the big part of
ABA is that we do collect data.
we our, our goals are,
(10:33):
explaining, predicting and,
changing the behavior,describing the behavior also.
So we've got to know what behaviorwe're looking for in ABA.
And we have to be able to describe it.
So then we can measure it,and then we can provide
(10:56):
some sort of strategy or treatment to
change that behavior.
So we're decreasingthose unwanted behaviors
which could be self-injurywhich could be aggression, which could be
property destruction,and replacing with something
that's not harmful to that individualor others.
(11:19):
So, you know, whether it's being able toand most of
it's always communication actually,like how do you ask for something?
How do you tell tell someonewhat's going on or what you need?
The data collection, we will.
So when you take the dataand you monitor it,
(11:39):
what you do is you look at the dataand if it is not working,
then you need to do something different
and change it to help that person,the learner.
Okay.So that's what the data is all about.
And it should be monitored closely.
And because behaviors are always changing,guess what?
Those strategies will change.
(12:00):
Because if someone that's is advancing,you're not going to leave.
Let's say your target isthe person will ask
be able to request fiber items.
You know, like water, maybeusing the bathroom, maybe getting food.
Well, once they master thatand you see that
(12:22):
some of those unwanted behaviors decrease,what are you going to do?
You're going to look at that dataand then guess what.
You're going to change it.
You're going to update it.
So data collection is all important.
Data collection must happenin order to provide good ABA therapy
okay.
(12:42):
Yeah. Yep.
And I know I've seen some of theI mean I've I know
how meticulous you have to bewith the data collection.
I've seen some of the therapiststhat work around the school
and they have the,the systems on their iPads,
and then they'll have the clickersto keep track of everything.
And, I, I'm just sure that it takes alot of focus and that attention to detail
(13:07):
to be able to monitor all of thatand change it for each. Limb
and that.
Actually,when you said that you brought up a great,
point with
how difficult it is to provide
therapy, mainly because
usually in the perfect world,
(13:30):
it would be somebody collecting the data,
someone,
incorporating the,
what we call thesort of like the instruction,
or demands,
but it's really just kind of likeproviding those instructions.
(13:51):
And then a third person
using prompting strategies
to help that learner respond.
But we don't have that.
We have one person,
given that they're being takenthe data collection and prompting,
which is not as efficient.
(14:14):
So it would be great
if insurance companieswould allow us to have three people do it.
Because you know what?
I think treatmentwould happen a lot faster
and there'd be a lot more success ratewith that.
Absolutely.
Yeah, definitely.
And so having all that responsibilityas a therapist, as an RBT,
(14:36):
also I really like
how you used learner instead,because I think that's more accurate.
I think I've always said client,and I think client might come off
as a little clinical, a little medical,or I learned something new.
Think youwhen you're working with a learner
and you have all of these rolesas an as a BCBA,
(14:58):
how do you work with other professionalslike teachers or other therapists,
and how do you come up with a well-roundedapproach for each learner?
So part of,
ABA therapy
includes working with everyone
that is part of that learner's life.
(15:18):
as much as possible.
Because if we don't do that,we're not going to be able to get like
that carried through and follow through,
and it will only confuse the learner.
so, right.
I think the number one thing isso you have to consider
how the family lives, how they do things.
(15:43):
You have to consider,like if the learner is in school,
we have adult learners also.
But if they're in a school,like how is that environment there?
How does a learner be successfulin a classroom or group environment?
And then we always, always work with,
(16:04):
OTS and speech therapist,physical therapist,
all other therapists, everyone,because they also have some expertise
that we may not have, you know,because there
there is the physical component of like
a big example is with feeding therapy.
(16:25):
Like I get I get a lot of families,you know, oh, they're picky.
Either they won't eat. What can we do?
We can absolutely put in some strategiesin place, but we have to,
consider the physical component too,
because they may have difficultyswallowing.
Sure. They're there.
There's just so many reasonswhy they may find food aversive.
(16:51):
So we have to work togetherand figure those things out.
So yeah.
That's wonderful.
I see that here.
Beyond the Spectrum with you all.
just the amount of collaborationwith people coming together for learners
trying to think of different, like reasons
why something's happeningand possible solutions for it.
(17:12):
And I'm sure it takes a lot.
to like, consider all the differentperspectives from other people.
Yes. And we do at Beyond the Spectrum.
We have, the called a collab lab.
I love that, whereall the professionals here we get together
and once a month and we discusswhat's happening,
(17:36):
what can we dobetter answering questions for each other.
So we absolutely, like,Beyond the Spectrum totally encompasses
that, you know, like the whole community,the whole environment of that learner.
Absolutely. That's great.
So on the
(17:57):
topic of like working with others and,
applying ABA therapyin different settings, have you ever come
across any kind of misconceptionsor myths about ABA
that you could maybe speak the truthabout, or set straight a little bit?
Yeah.
So, that was a little bit when I broughtup the electric shock therapy.
(18:21):
so no, we don't do that.
And that's not somethingthat is in our field of ABA,
that we do or practice now,I'm sure there's other,
probably psychotherapiesor that, that do that.
but we don't,
(18:44):
BCBA.
Also, we're we're not psychiatristsand we're not psychologists.
We we do something entirely different.
Do we work with psychologistsand psychiatrists?
Absolutely.
100%. Yes.
are we considered right now?
(19:04):
Do we fall under the branchof psychology? Yes.
But it really, in my opinion,it should really be a different brain.
Right? Yeah.
but we do all work together.
And the other thing is also,I think a lot of people think that.
Let me start here.
It's unfortunate that peoplehad a bad experience with ABA therapy.
(19:28):
For whatever reason.
They had a bad experience.
And that's very unfortunate.
But if you have a bad experience with
with an ABA therapist,
no matter what their credentials are,just like you, would a medical doctor
get a second opinion, try other people
because you do need to find what
(19:51):
who you match with.
You know, everybody'snot for everybody, and it's
okay to look for someone else.
We don't force.
First of all, you should never be forcinga learner to do anything.
we we use reinforcement,we pair with reinforcement.
We we consider all the environments,all the variables,
(20:15):
to help a learnerfeel safe and comfortable and when we use
physical guidance, that does not meanwe're forcing them to do something.
If they do not want us to touch them,we're not going to touch them.
We only physical guide them to like,let's say they need help with writing.
And a lot of our learnerslearn better if you physically guide them
(20:38):
and then feed yourself from that meaningstop touching them, you know?
But usually theybut we'll only touch them again,
like if they want us toand they find it reinforcing.
Otherwise we're not going to do that.
So I think that's a big misconception.
if they're sayingthey don't want something
and that's a wholenother topic, it's called dissent.
(21:00):
If they're not lettingus know that it's okay,
we're not going to do it or we shouldn'tbe doing it,
but we need to let them understandand and teach them.
And they have to trust us toand accept us.
So there's there's no,
force going on with that with ABA therapy.
(21:22):
Okay. Yeah, absolutely.
Because I know it can be kind of a touchytopic for people.
It can be a little controversial.
So I, I know some peoplemay when they hear the word,
the phrase ABA,it can kind of set some alarms for people,
but I know that it can bea really useful service for learners.
(21:43):
It can be.
It can help them in a lot of differentways. Yes,
it it helps everybody.
It does. It really does. Everybody. Yep.
And it ends up helping the whole family,which I think is the neat thing about it.
yes. And
so and that'skind of what you were talking about.
(22:04):
It kind of answered my questionwith, what families can do,
what they should look out forif they're seeking a reliable provider.
And you kind of answered those,
if you have anything elseyou'd like to kind of advise families
on picking an ABA providerand things they should look out for.
(22:26):
no. That's it.
Like, you canyou can ask them that question,
you know,
you know, just you can askjust a simple question with like,
why do you think ABA therapy,some people are against ABA therapy.
What why whatwhat do you think about that?
And they should be able to tell you thatbecause we're not we don't do that.
(22:49):
And if they don't know that, I,I would kind of read like that.
Like, well,
you know, but absolutely.
Okay. Good to know.
And, when families are wanting to startthat process
to get ABA started,what steps should they take for that?
Is there any kind of like insuranceapprovals or.
(23:10):
I know it can be a messy process, but,
so what does that what do those stepslook like for families?
Okay.
So if you want to get
ABA therapy
specifically and have insurances cover it,
of course,you know, anybody can private pay, right?
(23:31):
It does.
You don't need a diagnosis of any kind.
because again, it is for everybody.
It helps everyone.
You don't necessarilyhave to have a diagnosis, but insurance
companies will only payusually if you have one.
However, I have in the past
got services approved
(23:54):
if I approved medical necessity.
And that means like
you don't necessarily have to go outand get another diagnose assess.
But if we're talking about there's thingsgoing on
like like the self-injurious behaviorsor Sad as we call it,
if that's going on and it, you know,we're going to take care of that.
(24:15):
There's like some serious scary elopementgoing on.
You know, there's we can push hard to,
to try and get those servicescovered through insurance.
But usually you do need a diagnosisunfortunately.
But that's why it workswith insurance companies.
If you have if you have state insurance
or which is Medicaid also, or,
(24:38):
private insuranceor that your employer health insurance,
they all
have a little bit different requirements.
but it will require pre authorization.
But the best thing I can tell youis to get a,
complete comprehensive
(24:58):
diagnostic evaluation done.
because they do require thatand you need, your
a medical doctorto refer you, your pediatrician,
psychiatrist.
They have to, like,give you a prescription, a referral
from the doctor, and then,
(25:21):
and then they'll requestand then the insurance
company will,of course, you'll request, evaluation.
And you'll have to get that theyour ABA company will get that submitted.
So find find a ABA therapy provider
and you can go in and,
fill out all the intake paperworkand then they'll guide you from there.
(25:44):
Absolutely.
And then also if you ever want to actuallyjust find a provider,
you could go to BABC.com
and go to the registryand put in your zip code and it'll ask you
the radius,you know, ten miles, whatever it is,
and you can put it inand all the people will show up
(26:07):
because some of the BCBA do private work,where they're not associated
with the company and some BCBAare associated with the company.
But but they'll
if they want to be contacted,they'll have their information listed.
And then if you want to contactthat person directly, the they'll
point in the right direction.
(26:28):
Okay.
Awesome. That's great to know.
That's great to know for families.
And finally, just to wrap it
all up a little bit,is any kind of success stories
or memorable experiencesyou've had working in the ABA field?
And, there it's so many,
(26:50):
so many that, my goodness.
I not like there's not just onethat stands out in my head
because there's just beenso many incredible moments.
I mean, from just, a learner simply
(27:11):
starting to say a couple words,you know, asking for something,
even if it's one word to,
I have learners that have went into,
inclusion classrooms and testing out,
their standardizedtesting in their age group,
(27:34):
which is phenomenal.
And just toilet training,
using the bathroomand brushing their teeth.
I mean, there's just so many successstories.
And I have to say, like,you know, you have to look at like,
what is successful for that person, right?
(27:55):
Yeah. It's it's not about me.
It's not about mom or dad.
It's not about anything except thatindividual and what's successful for them.
And. In that way, like,
I've just seen so many amazing thingsand just happiness with
(28:16):
when they do somethingindependently or gain independence
or somebody understoodwhat they wanted it.
It's the most amazing thing in the world.
Yeah.
And that is that's actually somethingthat we've talked about in other podcast
episodes before, about how successcan be measured in so many different ways.
(28:37):
And it sounds like ABAtherapy really embodies that as well.
But just how success can be
monumental in so many different waysto so many different students.
It looks so differentdepending on the learner and their needs.
And so I think that is alsoa really cool thing about it
is how many ways things can be celebrated
(28:59):
and how many different waysthat learners can see achievement
through their treatment plan.
So I think that's wonderful.
And I also I just thought of this,
I wanted to ask youwhat the requirements are for BCBA for
like what kind of education and hours
do you have to completefor that certification?
(29:22):
Oh, they keep upping it. So
but yeah, you so you have to complete
a relevant masters degree programor related master's degree program.
They do have a master's degree in ABA
applied behavior analysis specifically.
Okay.
If you're going to be a clinician,an actual ABA
(29:45):
analyst or ABA therapist,
you have to go through,supervision and training.
I gosh, I can'tI think it's 2000 hours now.
It's, it's a lot more.
But you do have to go through a lotand sit for a board.
the board certification exam.
(30:06):
So, there's a lot to it.
I think this is all great information.
All of it.
there there is a question on herethat I really actually like that.
Yeah. You add on here.
Should I read it?
Sure. Yeah.
What are some of the keyprinciples and techniques used in ABA
and how are they applied in real world
(30:28):
world settings?
I'm not going to go into the key
principles and techniquesbecause that that's a lot of stuff.
But yeah, to give an exampleof of a couple of things,
like something that we will useif needed is a token economy system.
We're supposed to fade that out though,
(30:48):
like when we're given a therapythat should be faded out.
It's not set up to be used forever,
but some people do need it.
And then when you think about it
though, we all kind of use it forever.
So our money system, our monetary systemis a token economy system.
(31:11):
We're getting rewarded for working.
And then we take those tokens, money
and we buy stuff that we want.
So we are a token economy system,our monetary system.
So that that's a huge example.
you know, that we always learn aboutand refer to.
(31:34):
So I just wanted to give youthat example of it,
because even though it's somethingthat we don't want
to depend on, we still do.
And we that's our economy system.
Yeah. Wonderful.
I also I wanted to askand I'm, I meant to write it down, but,
(31:55):
I wanted to ask about the communityinsight series that you and Doctor Val do.
And, I was wonderingif you could explain that a little bit
and how you've been serving familiesthrough that?
I know we are going on our third,
going on our third meeting with you guys,
and I just know it'sbeen a great resource for families.
(32:19):
So if you could just talk a little bitabout what you all cover
and how you've been serving familiesthrough that insight series.
So the, it's actually
the one coming upis going to be our second one
or second onebecause that last one that we did,
(32:40):
we had technical difficultiesand it didn't happen.
So, unfortunately, yeah,we couldn't get that resolved in time.
but the first one we did,
we just we open it up to people,
that join, like,just join during your lunch hour.
(33:01):
It's zoom. You don't have to come in.
you can participate
and say somethingif you want to, but you don't have to.
Do you have any questions?
our first meeting kind of,just kind of led into,
toileting.
Toileting in public,you know, and what to do.
(33:22):
so what we want to dois just invite people in to,
to share their knowledge, talk about it,and see if we can offer any strategies
or resources like,
the next onethat we're doing, we are hoping to get,
an expert in on what to prepare for
(33:46):
for adulthood, guardianship,
what kind of funding, as they,you know, enter adulthood
and what you need to do nowto prepare for it. So,
we just trying to pool all our resourcesin the community and pull it in.
We're not trying to sell anything.
we're not looking for peopleto advertise, to sell anything.
(34:10):
We just want to share everythingwe have all our resources.
That's great.
That's wonderful.
I think that covers everything.
I've,wanted to ask you for this episode, but.
So thank you so much for internalall of these questions
and providing so much insightfor the listeners.
(34:31):
I think this is all such helpfulinformation about ABA therapy
and kind of discussing more about itin the techniques that are used.
And, I really appreciate your time.
Well,thank you so much for inviting me to this.
It's a great resource for people also.
So I hope everyone listens to allthe podcasts that you guys put out there.
(34:53):
Absolutely. Oh, it's a good thing.
Thank you so muchfor joining us here today
at Helping Families Go beyond the podcastby Beyond the Spectrum.
For more resources or information, visitour website at Beyondthespectrum.org.
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