April 9, 2024 • 49 mins
Get set for an exhilarating journey of reliving the glory days with the 10th episode of our Hidden Heritage series. Join our host, Paul LaRoche and his old-time buddy, Tom Gilmore, as they unearth the memories of their shared hometown, Worthington, Minnesota. Tune in to their timeless friendship, manifesting through the captivating 'Tom and Paul Show' reminiscing the days of their early days rock bands, Scarlet Sun and T Leslie Summers.
As you get deeper into the show, Tom unravels his love for nature, his initial musical influencers, explorations of the regional music scene, and evolution as a musician. With LaRoche also sharing his Native American lineage, the episode provides the listener with an all-rounded, cultural perspective. Gear up for a sentimental journey celebrating not only their mutual love for music, but also the roots that fueled their musical ventures.
After four decades of separation, memories lead them to their decision of creating music together again, finally cumulating in an unforgettable reunion gig. Yet, time hasn't dampened the two's passion for music. Listen in as they discuss their forthcoming projects and shared musical fervor into promising ventures.
This striking episode gets deep into the heartfelt narrative centered around Kathy's (Paul’s wife) compelling endeavor to uncover the extraordinary family line, leaving the listeners stirred. The episode concludes on a hopeful note, inviting inquisitive minds to continue exploring and understanding the fascinating aspects of Native American culture alongside spiritual and musical themes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:16):
I'm your host, Paul LaRouche. Whether you've been following our journey from
the start or just joined us recently, I want to extend a sincere thank you.
Since our launch on February 8th, we have presented nine episodes of the Hidden
Heritage series and introduced you to one episode of the Brulee Chronicles.
Today marks a special milestone as we release Episode 10, which I call Growing Up in Worthington.
(00:43):
Joining me on this nostalgic journey is none other than my longtime friend and bandmate, Tom Gilmore.
Together, we'll reminisce about our shared hometown of Worthington,
Minnesota, and the fond memories and adventures that shaped us,
including some of the musical escapades.
So get ready to take a trip down memory lane.
So sit back, relax, as we take this heartfelt journey of our roots.
(01:08):
Welcome to Hidden Heritage.
Music.
(01:30):
I'm here with Tom Gilmore, and in my mind,
I'd always kind of envisioned a channel that could be hosted by myself and another
individual, and I'm trying to twist Tom's arm into doing this because we have a history.
We go back a little bit, and most of it involves music, the music world.
(01:53):
We were in a group together back in the early days, which we'll talk about a
little bit more as we get into it,
But he's also kind of an outdoorsman, so I know, Tom, that you've got a love for the outdoors.
You were an avid climber back in your day, maybe still are,
I don't know, but I know that you had a love for places like Wyoming and the
Tetons, and I've heard you mention that stuff for years, Black Hills,
(02:18):
right? Wyoming. Yeah, well, all that.
And so you combine those two things, and those are two of the areas Areas that
have a lot to do with at least how our life has been shaped up over the years
in terms of Brulee, in terms of the Summers LaRush family,
and in terms of the outdoors when it comes to the culture.
So I talked about this gentleman, Tom Gilmore, a little bit.
(02:41):
Tom, why don't you just take a minute here and just let the audience know who
you are and how you came to know Summers LaRush.
Well, I was born in Sioux City, Iowa, but we moved to Worthington,
and that's where Paul was living at a very young age.
And I'm six years older, I think. How old are you?
(03:04):
I'm not going to say. No, I'm 69.
Okay, I'm four years older than him. Anyhow, I'm not exactly sure how Paul and
I met, but they needed a drummer.
And at the time, my father had already passed away, and I was running the family
business. So, I was a so-called businessman. I guess I'm not exactly sure what that means.
But we started practicing. We were playing kind of a hard rock band.
(03:28):
I think we were called Scarlet Sun at the time. And I've always loved music
and always was kind of a rocker.
And one thing led to another, and we got together, and we started playing.
And the rest was history.
And unbeknownst to either Paul or I, we did not know at the time that he was Lakota Sioux.
We were then, I think he was told, I think I've got this right that you were French Canadian.
(03:51):
And so that's kind of what we thought. I guess if I would have known that he
was an Indian, I wouldn't have anything to do with him. No, I'm just kidding.
Anyhow, so to make a long story short, that's how it all started.
And it started way back in, geez, it had to be about.
About 74, maybe. Yeah. So don't be shy now. Tell them about you.
(04:12):
So you were a drummer, right? Yep, I was a drummer.
I played in numerous bands and, you know, garage bands. That's how we all started.
Okay, so tell me a little bit about your early, tell me what your earliest memory
of the music scene would have been like here in southwest Minnesota.
Because we're coming from Worthington here on this podcast. Well,
you know, we came right in. You know, I'm 73, so, you know, the Beatle invasion, Asian.
(04:35):
I can remember going to the dances when we were in junior high up at the YMCA,
and they'd be playing Beatle music and Kinks and Rolling Stones.
And, you know, we were just these young kids and didn't know what was really going on.
And all the parents were upset with the hair and the way they dressed.
And that's kind of how we got into it. And, you know, Worthington was just a
(04:58):
small town, you know, 8,000 people, I suppose, back then.
So what were some of the other bands that were were playing,
because you've mentioned this to me before, but I like to pick your brain because
I don't even remember some of these.
Well, we had bands back then, you know, there was a band called the Blue Things.
They were kind of far out and they'd come to the Coliseum and they'd play at the Armory.
And then probably my all-time favorite band was a band called the Fabulous Flippers.
(05:19):
And I think they were from the University of Kansas or somewhere.
And then there were the Roaring Red Dogs.
Winston T. Fink and the Uglies. All these kind of bands came through and,
you know, you just started playing. and I was in school band and I finally quit
that and we started a garage band.
I think the first band I was ever in, we were called the Aardvarks.
(05:39):
Say that again. The Aardvarks. Okay, I got you. Yeah.
And we played out in the garage and drove the neighbors crazy,
of course, and we probably weren't really very good, but, you know,
there were a lot of girls that thought we were kind of cute back then,
so I guess you just keep going.
I think that's how all of us kind of get started.
But, you know, one thing led to another and we got better and, you know,
(05:59):
And then there used to be a, in my own developing, there was an Air Force base
up in Chandler. It's closed now.
But there was a gentleman named Sam Davis Jr., not the Sammy Davis,
but he was the all-service vocal winner.
And I think at the time, I think he played on or sang on the Ed Sullivan Show,
(06:20):
had a gorgeous voice, played a Hammond B3 organ.
And he had a 12-string guitar player from Chicago. His name was Gary Wozniak,
and they were both in the service.
And Sammy lived in Worthington, and he knew that I drummed, and I ended up,
my dad had to sign a waiver so I could play the bars of them.
(06:42):
We played kind of a jazz type of music, and I'd play over in Sioux Falls a lot,
and I was, you know, 16 years old.
And just one thing led to another, and it was just a lot of fun.
You know, I've heard people say, I sometimes mention this to myself when I'm
talking to other people, but
there was a pretty healthy music scene around this part of the country.
And I like to think that at the core of that music scene was some of the ballrooms
(07:06):
that were scattered throughout this part of the country. Now,
do you remember any of the ballrooms, Tom? Oh, sure.
Probably around here, two of the most famous ones. One was down in Okoboji,
Iowa. It was called the Roof Garden.
And they'd get bands like the Buckinghams and Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs
were there when their number one hit was Wooly Bully, which is a song that Paul
(07:28):
and I actually opened our 40-year reunion concert out at Duffy's here in Worthington.
That was the song we started out with.
Now, that was a heck of a tangent you just took us on. We'll come back to that. Yeah, yeah.
And then there was like, well, there was a place that none of us were ever supposed to go to.
It was called the Hollyhock Ballroom, and that was up in Hatfield,
sort of a little town kind of southeast of Pipestone.
(07:51):
And that was a big taboo, you know, a lot of teenage drinking,
and it was out in the country, and it was a pretty wild place,
and then there was Valhalla up at Lake Chautauqua, there was the,
showboat in Lake Benton, just a lot of places that you could play,
and then the armories in almost any town.
(08:13):
Back then, they would book you in, and you'd see all these bands,
and they were They're pretty good.
Well, I have a good memory of it. I tell people about that, but that's an era
that's gone completely because you wouldn't find that.
I used to kind of think, Tom, that the ballrooms around here,
that ballroom circuit was kind of like the minor leagues for the music business
because they send a lot of groups out here.
I myself remember seeing Jerry Lee Lewis at the Hollyhock Ballroom.
(08:36):
I was underage, just like a lot of his guys were, so we snuck in.
But he was on a pretty big swing back in those days, but his career hadn't really hit it.
It eventually did. So he was kind of coming through. Same thing I could say
with Tommy James and the Shondells. We saw them at, I think, the Showboat.
And they had one of their hits out, but they went on.
(08:58):
So I think the labels used to send those groups out around here,
find out how they do with the kids in the ballrooms, and if things were going
and they were selling their records, the label kept them going.
Yeah, it was just different back then. And like Paul said, I think that era
is, you know, it's gone. on.
You know, now you hear these guys, they come on and they get a couple hits and
(09:18):
you better go see them while you can afford it.
Because, you know, everything just gets so far out of hand.
But yeah, the day of live music, you know, it kind of died off.
It used to, you know, every weekend used to be able to go to these little supper
clubs or bars around and they'd have a little band in there.
And, you know, everybody had fun.
And that kind of, the bands kind of dwindled down.
(09:40):
They didn't want to pay and then they got the disco or not the disco but the
disc jockeys and playing all that you know we used to do a lot of wedding dances
um and i still prefer live music to any of that you know i think it's fun and
i love to see people get up and play it doesn't really matter,
their their skill level i just think it's i think anybody that gets up and play
(10:02):
is was worthy of respect.
We got together in the band, I think you set it up earlier, Tom,
with the group Scarlet Sun, but,
so let, you let me know, you tell me kinda how you saw your collaboration with
Scarlet Sun Band, TLC Summers, and how we worked our way up through the.
(10:25):
You tell me what your memories are about to operate those days.
Well, it was always somewhat awkward for me because my father had passed away
and I was running the family business.
And even though I was only a few years older than Paul, I can remember being the drummer.
And all of a sudden they wanted to do the talent show at the high school.
(10:45):
And of course, so there I am. I'm a businessman and playing with these guys
with long hair. And we won. done.
And then I'd leave and go back to work. So, you know, it was just a,
it was just a different time then, but you know, Scarlet Sun was a lot of fun
and, and, um, you know, one thing led to another and we kind of got out of the hard rock scene.
(11:05):
And then, uh, we, uh, Paul was the, was the lead singer.
And then I sang a lot. I don't think I was a lead singer, but,
but Paul and I always had a, uh,
I think anyhow, we always had the ability to, to harmonize
and to sing really really well together and it kind of ended up
that both of us were kind of singing and and so we just kind of kept eliminating
(11:26):
people let's put a plug in for the other guys let's uh so all right jack leslie
yep jack leslie was our bass player and we'll get back to him because he was
kind of the last to go kevin defries yep we had kevin defries he was our lead guitar player,
and kevin's a doctor now isn't he a chiropractor i think yeah i think he's doing pretty well Yeah.
Craig Silver was a drummer before, I think before you came along.
(11:49):
Before me. Is that right?
You kind of took his place and then there was a handful of a bunch of other
people that came in and out of that band, but those were some of the early guys in the band. So yeah.
All right. So you worked your way up through, we ended up with being a two-piece that's,
What happened there? Well, you know, money's money. And Paul and I,
we kept looking at these guys, and we thought, well, you know what?
(12:09):
We're doing all this thing.
And at the time, Paul was playing, I always say it was a B3,
but I guess he corrected me. It was a B2, I think.
M3. Or M3. Okay, M3. I don't know anything about organs, but it was an M3. He had a Leslie speaker.
And so all of a sudden, we went without a guitar player. player.
And then we got down to Jack Leslie, our bass player, Tom Gilmore,
(12:32):
that's me, and then, of course, Paul Summers.
So we came up with the name T for Tom, Leslie, Jack's last name,
and then Paul's last name, Summers.
And we played together for quite a while. Well, then on the side,
Paul and I started doing little commercials.
Oh, that's right. I'm glad you brought that up, because we did have a second life going.
Yeah, we had kind of a second little business. production company yeah a little
(12:54):
production company and paul had a studio in his basement and,
we'd do these little ditties for for local businesses yeah
jingles and uh you know we'd put them together
and it kind of i mean i don't know that we ever got paid a whole lot but it
was quite a bit of money back then probably but we would put these together
it didn't take us very long but one day we were sitting in the studio it was
just him and i and we were kind of listening to the playback we had the words
(13:16):
down paul was playing the music um some of them had drums but and most of them
didn't even have drums. We just did the singing.
I said, you know, it needs a little bit more. You know, you need to get some,
your bass pedals out. Get some bass pedals out.
And we kind of, he put the bass pedals to it and we looked at each other and
I said, are you thinking what I'm thinking? And that was the end of Jack.
(13:39):
And Jack, I haven't seen Jack in years, but Paul stayed in contact with him.
And I don't think there's no animosity or anything, but we told Paul,
or we told Jack, Jack, actually, the good news is we're going to keep your name.
So Paul and I then went down to a two-piece, both sharing the singing duties,
and we kept Jack's name for quite a few years.
And we got pretty well known around here.
(14:01):
Now, Tom, if I said I had 100 bucks in my pocket that I'm willing to give you,
if you sang one of our old jingles, could you do it?
Well, we had a, I don't know if I could get all of it, but we did have a local drugstore.
And when they built the big new mall here in Worthington, he opened up a drugstore out there.
So his name was Doug Off, and he lived in Worthington a long time, very well known.
(14:27):
And we came up with a little ditty, and I can't remember exactly how it goes,
but it was something like this.
Something for everyone, something for all. Off-Wall Green Drug, downtown and the mall.
Off-Wall Green Drug.
That's pretty good. And the funny part, years,
(14:48):
and I mean years later, I'm driving across South Dakota, and I've got my woman
with me, and all of a sudden I go, for Christ's sakes, that's me on the radio.
And here we hadn't, we had to be at least 10, 12 years old and they were still using it.
(15:08):
And as we're coming across I-90 heading for Worthington, here I hear this goofy
song that Paul and I had done.
And, you know, of course we didn't have residuals or anything,
but yeah, that's kind of our history.
We had a kind of a real interesting start to everything. you think?
Hey, by the way, that was a good, it was a good job on that jingle.
It kind of, it brought back some memories and stuff.
(15:30):
Unfortunately, I don't have that a hundred bucks that I promised,
but you were a trooper and you sang it pretty good.
I give you credit for that. So yeah, no, we did a lot of jingles and that's
kind of a, uh, uh, an era gone by too.
But so what I'm going to do, Tom, one of these days, uh, I still have all those
archives, all the old, most of that stuff was done.
I don't know if you remember that, but we had this eight Yep,
(15:50):
the 8-track. 8-track, a multi-track tape recorder, a TASCAM.
And so we recorded it on the bigger machine, then we bounced it down to 2-track,
which is also a reel-to-reel machine.
And so then everything was saved on these, eventually it came down to these
little 8-inch reels and 6-inch reels.
And so it's just tape. People don't even know what tape is anymore,
but that's how we used to do it.
(16:11):
I've got those all saved in a warehouse, so I can get at them.
I don't know if they'll play anymore, but I'm going to try and pull them out.
Some of the stuff was on cassette too, too.
So a lot of those old demos. Yeah, we're going way back. That's way back.
So yeah, anyway, so okay. So now those are some great memories.
But so now there was a big stretch in between those days and what we did here
(16:37):
just a couple of months ago, right?
You know, what happened in between for you?
Well, I'll say I'll get my story here later on, but so what are you talking
about? A 30-year stretch, Tom? A 40-year stretch? 40 years.
Well, you know, my, my father had passed away and I took over the family business
and, and, uh, I still stayed in music for a while.
I played in some other bands with, with some other people, but.
(16:58):
You know, those are, I don't even, I think one band was called the Tradewinds
and we had a guitar player that he worked out.
He was a produce manager at a local grocery store.
You know, just your typical small town stuff.
And, but then eventually, you know, I had a family and I was an avid golfer
and I just didn't have time anymore.
So I basically kind of retired from all of that scene and kept track of Paul,
(17:23):
you know, and, you know, I'd check in, not necessarily with Paul,
but I'd kind of watch and see what he was doing.
And then I ran into him, oh man, I don't know, years, years after that,
because, you know, Paul had moved on and he had his career going and a family.
And one thing led to another. And a couple of years ago, he called me up and
said that they were back in Worthington and he had a lot of people telling him
(17:45):
that you got to get back together with Gilmore and do something.
Well, then we kind of let it lay for, I had some knee surgery and things just,
you know, they were still busy, but then the pandemic hit.
And so there was time, and, you know, we started putting things together,
and we did this reunion gig at a local country club here, and it was interesting, to say the least.
(18:07):
Well, what I think is kind of, what I think is really kind of nice about this,
Tom, is that, you know, we played music together, what, 40 years ago,
and then we had a little sabbatical that was probably 30 years to 40 years in between there.
And we got back together again and played.
And I think, what did we practice two or three times really?
I was about it. But it was pretty much, it was pretty much, it was pretty,
(18:30):
it came back pretty naturally.
Yeah. And the interesting thing is we kind of put together a song list and,
but, you know, a lot of people from Worthington, they remembered us and they
remembered a lot of the songs.
Well, unfortunately we knew a lot of those songs or new parts of them,
but we didn't rehearse those. So we only made it into this reunion concert,
(18:50):
you know, about four or five songs where all of a sudden we're doing requests
and we couldn't remember all the verses.
So we just sing the same verse over. But you know what? Everybody had fun. Didn't matter.
And that's really what music is supposed to be. Bring people together. People have a good time.
You know, we missed some notes, but I doubt if anybody out in the audience probably
really didn't care. They were all having a good time.
(19:12):
Music.
Well, you know what? So there's 40 years that passed from when we started doing this up until now.
And so I always knew, Tom, that you were able to tell a pretty good story.
(19:34):
And I always considered you high on the list of conversationalists.
I've got Tom with me. This is the Tom and Paul Show. I just named it right now, by the way.
We'll see where it goes. I like that you put my name first.
Well, it's going to cost you later on. Yeah, I'll bet. Well,
I've told the Brulee story to anybody that knows this. and anybody that's probably
(19:56):
listened to the podcast or listened to us talk here has probably heard parts
of the story. So I'm going to keep my end short here.
But I always tell people that, you know, I started out in Worlington, which I'm proud of.
And I got my early experience, you know, in music here. My first instrument was the accordion.
Tom, I think you asked me if I ever would pick that back up again. And I will. I'd love to.
(20:18):
But I had a weird little twist in my life. I was an adopted kid and found out
at some point in my life that I discovered my true heritage.
My mom and dad, and Tom can probably verify this, he knew Irwin Clarence,
but, you know, they were wonderful parents, but they told me I was French-Canadian,
and there was never anything wrong with that.
Most of the people in town knew that or thought that.
(20:41):
Turns out that after I lost both of my parents, my wife discovered my adoption
papers, and, of course, one thing led to another.
We ended up finding our family back on the Lower Brule Sioux Reservation,
And first thing you know, Tom, is we're officially back into the Native American
world, found a biological family and looked for a way to assimilate back into that culture.
(21:02):
And boom, the group Brulee came out of that because I stayed in music and wanted
to express the experience that I had gone through. So there was how Brulee started.
Now, while that's going on, I know that you kind of heard our name pop up once in a while.
So, what was your, from the outside world looking in and from somebody who we
kind of grew up together, what was going through your head when you heard of
(21:26):
this group Brule and the Summers Kid and you must have thought,
what in the heck is this guy going through?
Well, first off, I've got to tell you a little bit about my family.
My family, the Gilmore family, grew up in Pipestone, Minnesota,
and famous for Pipestone.
They make peace pipes out of. I guess that's not the proper term anymore. It's okay.
(21:47):
Is it okay? Yeah. I know they call them different things now.
So I was always around Native American Indians.
I used to go out with my dad and my Uncle Willard, and we'd go out to the quarry
there, and we'd actually watch them quarry.
Stuff. And they used to have a pageant there called the Hiawatha Pageant.
And my uncle, he did all the lighting for that.
He was with Northern States Power at the time. And it was quite a pageant.
(22:11):
They had a guy dive off a big cliff and there's the three maidens or the big stones that are there.
And there's a lot of history there at that national monument.
But, you know, when I found out about all this with Paul, you know,
he wrote a book. I was a little little upset that I wasn't in the book.
But anyhow, I've always loved the Indian culture.
(22:31):
And unbeknownst to Paul, over the years, I've got many, many books on the Indians.
I collect Indian pottery.
And I've always felt, I don't know, kind of a kinship. Maybe it was just because
when I was a little boy, I just looked up to these people so much.
And when I found out about Paul, and they started brulee, and I found out that
they were, you know, getting out there and getting getting successful and putting
(22:55):
their message out, I found a real sense of pride.
I was really proud of Paul that he was able to do that and get in touch and
could not even imagine what his journey was like.
I mean, I don't know that Paul was ever, and Paul could speak to that,
I don't know that he was ever torn between the two, but I'm sure there were
times when he probably was a little confused and really wasn't sure what happened to him.
(23:17):
I can tell you this, Paul was a very, you know, back when we played,
Paul was, he was just like any other, you know, he was a kid and,
you know, we played and, you know, Paul had a family and we were young, we were young.
And, but now Paul has found a, at least in my view, he's a very spiritual person.
And I think I've become a better person just reconnecting with him and playing music again.
(23:40):
And I'd like to think that he enjoys it too.
I mean, we're, we're never going to have the commercial success that Brulee
had, but I don't think that's really what either one of us are in this for.
We enjoy We enjoy playing together. We like singing together.
We like seeing people smile and having fun.
And, you know, so all those years, I guess, yeah, I just kind of followed him.
I never ever thought I was going to get a phone call, to be honest.
(24:03):
But I've been like, it's just like I've been, like I've turned into a kid again.
You know, I have a friend that plays drums and he ended up selling me one of his drum sets.
And I've really gotten back into music. I'm starting to write a few things.
And, you know, for all the years that Paul has wrote all that music,
and I have a lot of his CDs.
(24:23):
Some of it needs words to it, and I'm going to really work hard and try to get some of that done.
That's pretty cool, Tom. So what you're saying, and this is the first,
right? So what you're saying is that you're going to tackle that task and see
where it takes you? Yeah.
See if you can spin maybe a line. I know you're a good lyricist.
I've known that since I told you that from the very beginning.
And I just have never had that skill myself or that knack.
(24:47):
So maybe that'll be kind of interesting to see where that ends up.
Yeah, well, you know, you're young and, you know, I used to draw and I used
to write poetry and stuff. But then, you know, kind of life gets in the way for a while.
You got to make money, you're raising kids and you kind of lose it.
But it's always, it never really goes away. It just hides from you for a while.
(25:07):
And if nothing else, I guess getting back with Paul has just opened up a lot of things to me.
I'm viewing my own life differently. Currently, I'm 73, so like I said, I'm an avid golfer.
I'm not very good anymore, but I know I'm on the back nine.
And this has just been kind of a rebirth for me.
(25:28):
And I'm just enjoying the heck out of it. I'm having a ball.
I think you've got a few more rounds to go. Well, I hope so.
Okay, listen, Tom, listen. Thank you very much for that sentiment.
It's nice to hear you say that. And I think that you've always had a pretty spiritual nature.
Sure maybe it's maybe it's changed a little bit over the the
recent history here if if so i think that's kind of
(25:50):
neat to see because we all change and to grow and develop as our lives go by
yeah so paul the the other question i had you know just looking from afar you
know you uh all of a sudden you guys did the uh uh the big show out there at
mount rushmore and how did that all come about and i said well.
All right so you can tell i don't even hardly know where to start with that
(26:13):
you know it should It should be simple, it should be an easy answer to it,
Essentially, I'll try to break it down without getting too lengthy.
We had been playing out in the Black Hills area, and one of our regular haunts
out there was Crazy Horse, Crazy Horse Memorial.
We'd stop there two or three times every summer, and sometimes we'd get paid, sometimes we wouldn't.
(26:34):
Sometimes they'd let us in, sometimes we just wouldn't make the cut.
You never quite knew. We happened to be up there one summer when some of the
people from the Regis and Cassie Lee crew, In fact, they had a morning talk show back in those days.
And they knew ahead of time that they were going to be doing a live show at Mount Rushmore.
So they sent an advanced team out to check some things out to put that show together.
(26:59):
And one of their staff was crazy for us. We just happened to be there that day,
that hour that they were coming through.
And they didn't even talk to us then. We got a phone call like six months later
from somebody that said they'd seen us at Mount Rushmore. We want to know if
we would be interested in being part of this TV production.
And we said, yeah. And so that's how it happened. That's how the invitation came up.
(27:23):
And so, you know, that itself is the timing for that to actually happen,
you know, was one in a million, honestly.
But that's just, that's like the tip of the iceberg.
The actual making the show happen was a whole other thing. that I don't know
if we want to go there or not, but, you know, that's how we got the invite to come play there. Yeah.
(27:48):
Yeah, it's interesting. Sometimes it's just luck. Or you're in the right spot
at the right place, or sometimes you're in the wrong spot at the wrong time
or whatever. But, yeah, it's funny how things work out.
Well, it sure wasn't a decision made by a hot shot manager or a booking agent
or a talent agency or a record company.
None of those. That's typically how that would have happened.
(28:09):
And promotional company. I mean, Mount Rushmore. I mean, it could have been
any of those. Hey, Tom, here's something else.
You know, when we got the invite to be part of the show up there,
and by the way, we were what they call the musical guests.
So we had one little segment during the show, but most of our stuff we did was
(28:29):
bumpers coming in and out of their commercials.
And so we hadn't yet completely opened up the door into Mount Rushmore.
So we were like one of the first Native American, you know, performances to
take the stage up there on the main amphitheater at the base of the heads of the presidents.
(28:53):
You know, so that was tricky, too.
Well, thank you for sharing that with us because sometimes it's,
I don't know if it's a divine intervention or what, but that's just a wonderful thing.
And really, in some respects, it's kind of a double-edged sword.
(29:14):
There you are above a monument on some of the most sacred ground to your people. Yeah.
Well, we had, believe me, there was those in the culture that that kind of watched
what we were doing, and they weren't exactly 100% favorable with their critique
(29:35):
of our performance up there.
And so, you know, we had to kind of play that, you know, we had to play that hand carefully.
And, you know, as time went by, we knew that the test of time would let us know
if it was acceptable or not.
And as the years went by, I would say, Tom,
(29:55):
really, though it took about i would say it took about seven years
after that performance with regis and kathy lee to really to evaluate if it
was the right thing to do if it worked if it made a dent if it made an impact
in the culture if made an impact in the world and so yeah it all happened in
45 minutes you know and we probably played them we probably played a total of.
(30:18):
Five four or four and a half minutes all together over
that 45 minute show and so when you think
about that's not much time to make a well you
know and just looking at the the climate that we
live in now with with all this wokeism who knows if it would have ever happened
you might have you might have you don't know but but you might have had so much
pressure from from your community to not do this and thank god you did because
(30:42):
i think it was a genesis to start bringing bringing the people together and
bringing them together through music.
What better, what better thing? And there's a, I mean, there's,
there's something Paul that I can't, I don't know even know how to put it in
words, but I can just tell.
And I tell these listeners is you, and I'm not trying to promote Brule,
(31:02):
but there are songs there that just move me.
And in some respects, we're all native Americans. I mean, hell,
I, you know, we said, what are you? I said, I'm an American.
That's where I was born. But there's something about that area.
There's something about the whole Midwest that you don't find anywhere else.
No. And I can tell you that for a fact. We've had, we've traveled.
(31:24):
Well, you have too, Tom. Yeah.
We've both traveled around, you know, we've been around the world a time or two.
And there is something, there is something about it. I've always felt like the
culture still has, the Native American culture still has a lot to share with
the world, has a lot to give the world.
And as times change, you know, the welcoming hands, you know,
(31:48):
for that thing that we're trying to give the world hasn't always been so receptive.
I mean, there's been a need for it. I think the need now is greater than ever.
Will anybody, you know, find it and accept it? You know, that's the question.
A handful of people who have got their eyes wide open kind of see that and recognize it.
But in one of our future shows, Tom, we talked about Regis and Cassie Leesing.
(32:10):
Let's talk about how that works.
That one in a million little slot, how that brought us up to the actual concert
for reconciliation of the cultures which happened in 2007.
That was another monumental moment for the culture and for Brule and the chances
of that happening ever again probably are zero.
(32:32):
It had to happen, right? At that particular time, there was maybe a three-year
window when that could have happened.
An entire history, I'm not just talking about just recent history,
I'm talking about I don't care if you want to go back 800 years,
up till right now, I'm telling you there was about a three-year slot where that
actually could have happened, and it did happen.
And sometimes when you think, we just happened to be standing there at that
(32:55):
time, and they happened to have this invite to open up the door a little bit.
They happened to have a park ranger there who was the first Native American superintendent.
All that stuff had to click before we were really given the green light to go
do that, but that's a whole other story.
Yeah, and I would like to think that there was a reason that that happened,
and it was supposed to happen, and it's only going to be for the better of everybody.
(33:20):
Well, we'll dive into that one of our next shows. How's that sound? Sounds great.
Music.
(33:52):
Well, hello again, and this is Tom Gilmore. I'm here with Paul Summers, or Paul Arash.
I guess he can go by both. To me, he'll always be Paul Summers.
But I respect, you know, both sides of that.
And I guess that's what I'd like to get into. You know, Paul, I can't even imagine.
First off, you know, it's tough. I knew both Clarence and Irma,
(34:13):
and they were wonderful, wonderful parents.
And, you know, they were your mom and dad.
But they weren't your mother or your father. And I can kind of relate to that same thing.
My ex-wife and I, we had a newborn or a baby when we were in high school,
gave him up for adoption.
(34:34):
We later reconnected. And that's what I always told my son.
I said, just remember, you have a dad and mom. Anybody can be a mother and a father.
And, you know, so I can only imagine when Paul found out about all this,
he had to really be probably somewhat confused, probably a little bit scared,
probably a little nervous.
So I don't know, Paul, you tell me, what was it like when you first found out
(34:57):
that you weren't French-Canadian and that you were adopted and you were American-Indian?
Well, it's a life-changing experience, first of all. And it happens,
I don't know if you've ever heard the term a paradigm shift.
But what's going on there is that what they're talking about with that term
is that you look at something with your eyes, you see it one way.
It could just be a little on the table and maybe you've looked at that as a
(35:20):
pyramid, but you're only seeing it from the front.
And so when you finally realize that it's not a pyramid, it's just two dimensional,
it's just a piece of paper laying there as a triangle, you go,
I've looked at that thing, I thought it was a three-dimensional pyramid my whole life.
And some of you may just finally, somebody turned the page and showed me that
it's not. Well, that's kind of what I went through when I made that discovery.
(35:40):
But to dig right into your question about, you know, finding out about being a different,
you know, a different genetic background, it didn't really hit me.
It took quite a few years for that to really land and to sink in.
It took me a while to digest.
But here's one thing I would like to say, and I'm glad you asked the question, because I'm an adoptee.
(36:03):
I've talked to a lot of adoptees over the years, and everyone's got a different story.
My story, and I'm not the only one that shares this sentiment,
but for me, Irma and Clarence were my mom and dad, just like you'd mentioned.
And I really had very little interest in finding,
well, I'll put it this way, my biological mother and father were no longer alive
(36:23):
when this came up, which probably was the way for it to go because that would
have been a whole other chapter in this thing.
But, and here's one other thing, and then I'll let you, I'll give the microphone back to you.
Without Kathy being involved in the search to go back and to discover that family,
I would have never had the Constitution to do it.
(36:44):
She was the one that felt she had the intuition that there was something of
greater significance to that discovery than just finding a different family.
And for me, it was just like, I already have a mom and dad.
I don't really feel like I need to find other siblings or family. I just had no desire.
And part of that was because I was still in the grieving process early on for
(37:08):
the loss of both parents.
It later, of course, went on to be a good discovery.
But for me it was it
was the assistance of my wife Kathy that
really brought that reunion and in the end was
she was responsible I guess you could say for the entire Brulee
journey hey that
(37:28):
was pretty good timing yeah sure was well Kathy you know
was you know and I've known Kathy not quite
as long as Paul but basically I've known Kathy all my life too
you know her father was a was a businessman and
actually he was a customer of mine and and uh
i think uh and i don't mean this in a
bad way towards paul but kathy was really paul's rock and i think uh i think
(37:49):
paul will tell you that she uh she was really a driving force she stood by him
and and you know if you've written if you know if you've read his book uh it
wasn't all good times tough times hard times oh yeah And you're kind of torn between two worlds,
but she was the one constant and to this day still is.
(38:10):
And, you know, so not only have I been able to be fortunate enough to reconnect
with Paul, but we've reconnected with Kathy too.
And that's just kind of the way it should have been. My ex-wife was in the delivery
room when they had their first baby.
And so there's a lot of kind of different connections and it's fun.
And now you've got a beautiful son, young man, and he's not a little boy by any stretch.
(38:35):
And the connection is just there, but I can't even pretend to know,
how you felt about everything? Because, I mean, I'm sure there was waves of.
Just, I don't know, waves of thoughts and feelings that you didn't know exactly
(38:56):
how to handle, and they probably changed, and it's probably kind of fluid.
Well, there's, I mean, there's two parts to that question, Tom.
There is, you know, there is the emotional part, I think, and the spiritual part.
And yeah, you know, our kids have been along, Shane and Nicole,
both of them have been been part of this journey from the very beginning and we're
behind this whole thing but the other part of it was you
(39:16):
know separate from the the spiritual
part and the personal part was the artistic
side which honestly i had no i had no interest in in pursuing this whole thing
artistically it was designed you know in the long run to be more of a spiritual
journey And so the whole thing, we've taken the music,
(39:40):
some of the music that we had grown up with, and in this case, you and I,
some of that early music that we played, I don't care if it was Sam the Sham
or whether it was the Beatles,
that music carried over and somehow had to merge and morph into the Native American culture.
And that opens up a whole other chapter, Tom.
I mean, people still to this day will kind of ask,
(40:03):
you know, where did the inspiration for your songs come
come from i think you asked me one time and i don't
know how i answered it back back at that time but you know every
little piece of music i always kind of felt
like was a little story in its own musically you know at least at least it was
for me you know like i said before i'm not a lyricist so it was just the melodies
(40:25):
and tunes and they're kind of hard to come up with matter of fact you can't
really do it unless there's something at work in your life spiritually It could be positive,
it could be negative, but they both have the same result.
If it's a heavy, deep emotion, it's going to generate some kind of,
you need an outlet for that.
And in our case, it was the music, those little melodies that you kind of,
(40:47):
you know, listen to once in a while. I know you've listened to some of our music.
Each one was created, maybe one was on the top of a bluff on the Black Hills,
and one might have been on the open prairie as the thunderstorm came rolling across the plains.
And, you know, another one could have been down in the southwest was we're,
you know, standing down there in the middle of the Hopi Reservation.
I mean, it all had its, it all had its inspirations to create a piece of music.
(41:10):
Well, you know, it's a...
It's a journey that most people never get a chance to really take.
You know, it's almost like you had two lives. You were raised in the so-called
white man's world, and then all of a sudden you found out that you were Indian,
and so you're kind of two people mixed in one, and what a beautiful thing.
And it comes out in your music. I think you've said it, that probably one of
(41:32):
the biggest and most satisfying things about your music is you hope that it
can just help to bring people together and just kind of enjoy each other.
Well, I mean, I think, you know, an artist hopes that they can accomplish something
like that with their artwork.
I don't care if it's visual art or if it's photography or if it's music,
and you hope that it affects somebody else, but you don't set out to create it for that purpose.
(41:56):
You know, you do it to try to express that part of your life,
and then after it's, what I found out anyway, is once you've given it a birth,
once you've given it life,
you know, then you sit back a little bit and take a breath, and it's only at
that time you kind of go, well, I wonder if anybody's going to enjoy that.
And it's kind of a secondary thought. So it's nice when somebody does enjoy what you've done.
(42:18):
But, you know, a lot of the struggles, Tom, with Brulee, you know,
had to do with the fact that here we are in the music industry,
which still hasn't totally bought into the idea of our culture,
Native America, being a team player in the big leagues.
So if we hit obstacles over the last, you know, 30 years, years,
I would say, you know, yeah, we've opened up a lot of doors and we've made a
(42:40):
lot of progress and we've had, you know, what I would consider to be plenty
of success, but the obstacles are still out there.
The obstacles have always been the mainstream entertainment industry.
They've just never quite accepted what's happening here. They've never really
let us be part of the, of the, of the major leagues.
And, uh, it's not to be meant to a fault, but they, if you can believe this,
(43:01):
they just, I don't think they know what to do with the, what's a group like Brulee?
Yeah, there's really, I think you've said this before, there's really no category.
There's really no one else doing that kind of music. And even take it down to the instruments.
You know, you play piano. Well, where does that fit into the culture?
Yeah, where does that come in?
And then your daughter, Nicole, a flutist that plays a steel flute,
(43:25):
but she plays it kind of Indian style.
It's a unique sound, very talents.
So everything about you is kind of, it's both worlds, It's kind of just kind
of mixed in and what comes out of it is really a beautiful thing.
Well, thanks for that observation and mentioning that.
It means a lot when it comes from someone like you because you followed it and
you've seen where its origins were at.
(43:47):
You know, I think the really tough thing that still remains out there today
is for the mainstream entertainment industry to just to take notice of what's
going on here. I mean, think about it, Tom, and help me out here. Sure.
Think of a, try to think of a culture across the, around the world, anywhere.
I don't care if it's, if it's, if it's the Celtics, if it's the Germans,
(44:09):
if it's down in the Caribbean part of the country, if it's Brazil,
they all have their, they have their traditional sounds, right?
But they, but they've been able to bring them up into the pop world and,
and they all have their contemporary counterparts to their traditional music.
And most of them are huge categories. I mean, I'm just going
to pick on the latin music explosion which had
(44:29):
its origins back when we were kind of coming up through the ranks back
in the 70s and 80s it was huge now there
is a there's kind of a smaller culture subculture i
call it that carved out its own sound and it just went it took off like gangbusters
i mean look at look at irish music that became you know celtic music i don't
care if it's celtic christmas or i don't care if it's river dance yeah just
(44:52):
went off the charts no we We can go around the whole world and bring it up.
But when it comes to Native America, you've got to go, hold a second.
What are these guys doing?
Where is their... Yeah, there's not a lot.
No, not a lot. If you can come up with the number of acts that are fingers on
(45:13):
your hands, I'd be surprised.
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Well, like you said, the industry really
doesn't know what to do with you guys.
There's really no category. No. And we're not young kids anymore,
Tom. You know, that's starting out here.
And, you know, now when I look back at the next generation coming up,
it's kind of hard to, I'm hopeful, but, you know, it seems like a lot of the
(45:39):
younger generation in our culture,
they have this thing where they're not so interested in trying to work on that
blending of the cultures.
So, in other words, taking the traditional, keeping it contemporary,
they want to be hip-hop, they want to be a rapper, they want to be hip-hop artists.
(46:00):
They'd rather be in a country band than anything else. Card rockers, blues?
Yeah, blues. If you've heard of all, I mean, there's more blues,
there's more Indian blues bands than there are what you would call a group like
Blu-Lay, so I'm not sure where it's going to go.
So I'm hopeful, but we'll have to see, you know, what the next generation is able to come up with.
(46:21):
Well, I hope that...
I hope that brulee is kind of a starting point for young Native American musicians
to get some inspiration from, actually, and take it even farther.
And sometimes that's all it takes. Well, you know, maybe it is.
(46:43):
And, you know, you kind of give me hope there with those words.
So we'll see where it goes.
Tom, I tell you what, I've enjoyed this conversation.
Once again Tom Gilmore and Paul Summers the two of us here,
we had our origins back in the old days and we're still doing some things together
but I'd like to continue this conversation on at some different times if we
(47:06):
can Tom and I'd like to have you kind of be the sounding board for me and I'll do the same for you,
and together why don't we explore some
of the mystical things
about the native american culture we can talk about some of
the spiritual things um we can talk about
some of the some of the we obviously i think music is kind
(47:27):
of right at the top of the list for things we could discuss there's other
really cool things that need to be talked about a little bit you and i talked about
a conversation about the black hills what's happening out there you
mentioned pipestone there's a lot of stuff we could talk about pipes so we could
go right across the midwest here oh yeah very very interesting lot lots of uh
um i don't want to say say remnants but there's there's all kinds of history here and there's rock,
(47:56):
carvings I mean there's just all kinds of stuff that a lot of people aren't
even aware of well let's explore some of that what do you think let's chase
that sounds good well let's see if we can let's see if we can continue this
on and see if anybody will enjoy our conversations and I know I have yeah I
have to all right well we'll say thank you to everybody who's been listening
out there yeah this is Paul this is Tom we'll see you next time.
Music.
Music.
(00:16):
I'm your host, Paul LaRouche. Whether you've been following our journey from
the start or just joined us recently, I want to extend a sincere thank you.
Since our launch on February 8th, we have presented nine episodes of the Hidden
Heritage series and introduced you to one episode of the Brulee Chronicles.
Today marks a special milestone as we release Episode 10, which I call Growing Up in Worthington.
(00:43):
Joining me on this nostalgic journey is none other than my longtime friend and bandmate, Tom Gilmore.
Together, we'll reminisce about our shared hometown of Worthington,
Minnesota, and the fond memories and adventures that shaped us,
including some of the musical escapades.
So get ready to take a trip down memory lane.
So sit back, relax, as we take this heartfelt journey of our roots.
(01:08):
Welcome to Hidden Heritage.
Music.
(01:30):
I'm here with Tom Gilmore, and in my mind,
I'd always kind of envisioned a channel that could be hosted by myself and another
individual, and I'm trying to twist Tom's arm into doing this because we have a history.
We go back a little bit, and most of it involves music, the music world.
(01:53):
We were in a group together back in the early days, which we'll talk about a
little bit more as we get into it,
But he's also kind of an outdoorsman, so I know, Tom, that you've got a love for the outdoors.
You were an avid climber back in your day, maybe still are,
I don't know, but I know that you had a love for places like Wyoming and the
Tetons, and I've heard you mention that stuff for years, Black Hills,
(02:18):
right? Wyoming. Yeah, well, all that.
And so you combine those two things, and those are two of the areas Areas that
have a lot to do with at least how our life has been shaped up over the years
in terms of Brulee, in terms of the Summers LaRush family,
and in terms of the outdoors when it comes to the culture.
So I talked about this gentleman, Tom Gilmore, a little bit.
(02:41):
Tom, why don't you just take a minute here and just let the audience know who
you are and how you came to know Summers LaRush.
Well, I was born in Sioux City, Iowa, but we moved to Worthington,
and that's where Paul was living at a very young age.
And I'm six years older, I think. How old are you?
(03:04):
I'm not going to say. No, I'm 69.
Okay, I'm four years older than him. Anyhow, I'm not exactly sure how Paul and
I met, but they needed a drummer.
And at the time, my father had already passed away, and I was running the family
business. So, I was a so-called businessman. I guess I'm not exactly sure what that means.
But we started practicing. We were playing kind of a hard rock band.
(03:28):
I think we were called Scarlet Sun at the time. And I've always loved music
and always was kind of a rocker.
And one thing led to another, and we got together, and we started playing.
And the rest was history.
And unbeknownst to either Paul or I, we did not know at the time that he was Lakota Sioux.
We were then, I think he was told, I think I've got this right that you were French Canadian.
(03:51):
And so that's kind of what we thought. I guess if I would have known that he
was an Indian, I wouldn't have anything to do with him. No, I'm just kidding.
Anyhow, so to make a long story short, that's how it all started.
And it started way back in, geez, it had to be about.
About 74, maybe. Yeah. So don't be shy now. Tell them about you.
(04:12):
So you were a drummer, right? Yep, I was a drummer.
I played in numerous bands and, you know, garage bands. That's how we all started.
Okay, so tell me a little bit about your early, tell me what your earliest memory
of the music scene would have been like here in southwest Minnesota.
Because we're coming from Worthington here on this podcast. Well,
you know, we came right in. You know, I'm 73, so, you know, the Beatle invasion, Asian.
(04:35):
I can remember going to the dances when we were in junior high up at the YMCA,
and they'd be playing Beatle music and Kinks and Rolling Stones.
And, you know, we were just these young kids and didn't know what was really going on.
And all the parents were upset with the hair and the way they dressed.
And that's kind of how we got into it. And, you know, Worthington was just a
(04:58):
small town, you know, 8,000 people, I suppose, back then.
So what were some of the other bands that were were playing,
because you've mentioned this to me before, but I like to pick your brain because
I don't even remember some of these.
Well, we had bands back then, you know, there was a band called the Blue Things.
They were kind of far out and they'd come to the Coliseum and they'd play at the Armory.
And then probably my all-time favorite band was a band called the Fabulous Flippers.
(05:19):
And I think they were from the University of Kansas or somewhere.
And then there were the Roaring Red Dogs.
Winston T. Fink and the Uglies. All these kind of bands came through and,
you know, you just started playing. and I was in school band and I finally quit
that and we started a garage band.
I think the first band I was ever in, we were called the Aardvarks.
(05:39):
Say that again. The Aardvarks. Okay, I got you. Yeah.
And we played out in the garage and drove the neighbors crazy,
of course, and we probably weren't really very good, but, you know,
there were a lot of girls that thought we were kind of cute back then,
so I guess you just keep going.
I think that's how all of us kind of get started.
But, you know, one thing led to another and we got better and, you know,
(05:59):
And then there used to be a, in my own developing, there was an Air Force base
up in Chandler. It's closed now.
But there was a gentleman named Sam Davis Jr., not the Sammy Davis,
but he was the all-service vocal winner.
And I think at the time, I think he played on or sang on the Ed Sullivan Show,
(06:20):
had a gorgeous voice, played a Hammond B3 organ.
And he had a 12-string guitar player from Chicago. His name was Gary Wozniak,
and they were both in the service.
And Sammy lived in Worthington, and he knew that I drummed, and I ended up,
my dad had to sign a waiver so I could play the bars of them.
(06:42):
We played kind of a jazz type of music, and I'd play over in Sioux Falls a lot,
and I was, you know, 16 years old.
And just one thing led to another, and it was just a lot of fun.
You know, I've heard people say, I sometimes mention this to myself when I'm
talking to other people, but
there was a pretty healthy music scene around this part of the country.
And I like to think that at the core of that music scene was some of the ballrooms
(07:06):
that were scattered throughout this part of the country. Now,
do you remember any of the ballrooms, Tom? Oh, sure.
Probably around here, two of the most famous ones. One was down in Okoboji,
Iowa. It was called the Roof Garden.
And they'd get bands like the Buckinghams and Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs
were there when their number one hit was Wooly Bully, which is a song that Paul
(07:28):
and I actually opened our 40-year reunion concert out at Duffy's here in Worthington.
That was the song we started out with.
Now, that was a heck of a tangent you just took us on. We'll come back to that. Yeah, yeah.
And then there was like, well, there was a place that none of us were ever supposed to go to.
It was called the Hollyhock Ballroom, and that was up in Hatfield,
sort of a little town kind of southeast of Pipestone.
(07:51):
And that was a big taboo, you know, a lot of teenage drinking,
and it was out in the country, and it was a pretty wild place,
and then there was Valhalla up at Lake Chautauqua, there was the,
showboat in Lake Benton, just a lot of places that you could play,
and then the armories in almost any town.
(08:13):
Back then, they would book you in, and you'd see all these bands,
and they were They're pretty good.
Well, I have a good memory of it. I tell people about that, but that's an era
that's gone completely because you wouldn't find that.
I used to kind of think, Tom, that the ballrooms around here,
that ballroom circuit was kind of like the minor leagues for the music business
because they send a lot of groups out here.
I myself remember seeing Jerry Lee Lewis at the Hollyhock Ballroom.
(08:36):
I was underage, just like a lot of his guys were, so we snuck in.
But he was on a pretty big swing back in those days, but his career hadn't really hit it.
It eventually did. So he was kind of coming through. Same thing I could say
with Tommy James and the Shondells. We saw them at, I think, the Showboat.
And they had one of their hits out, but they went on.
(08:58):
So I think the labels used to send those groups out around here,
find out how they do with the kids in the ballrooms, and if things were going
and they were selling their records, the label kept them going.
Yeah, it was just different back then. And like Paul said, I think that era
is, you know, it's gone. on.
You know, now you hear these guys, they come on and they get a couple hits and
(09:18):
you better go see them while you can afford it.
Because, you know, everything just gets so far out of hand.
But yeah, the day of live music, you know, it kind of died off.
It used to, you know, every weekend used to be able to go to these little supper
clubs or bars around and they'd have a little band in there.
And, you know, everybody had fun.
And that kind of, the bands kind of dwindled down.
(09:40):
They didn't want to pay and then they got the disco or not the disco but the
disc jockeys and playing all that you know we used to do a lot of wedding dances
um and i still prefer live music to any of that you know i think it's fun and
i love to see people get up and play it doesn't really matter,
their their skill level i just think it's i think anybody that gets up and play
(10:02):
is was worthy of respect.
We got together in the band, I think you set it up earlier, Tom,
with the group Scarlet Sun, but,
so let, you let me know, you tell me kinda how you saw your collaboration with
Scarlet Sun Band, TLC Summers, and how we worked our way up through the.
(10:25):
You tell me what your memories are about to operate those days.
Well, it was always somewhat awkward for me because my father had passed away
and I was running the family business.
And even though I was only a few years older than Paul, I can remember being the drummer.
And all of a sudden they wanted to do the talent show at the high school.
(10:45):
And of course, so there I am. I'm a businessman and playing with these guys
with long hair. And we won. done.
And then I'd leave and go back to work. So, you know, it was just a,
it was just a different time then, but you know, Scarlet Sun was a lot of fun
and, and, um, you know, one thing led to another and we kind of got out of the hard rock scene.
(11:05):
And then, uh, we, uh, Paul was the, was the lead singer.
And then I sang a lot. I don't think I was a lead singer, but,
but Paul and I always had a, uh,
I think anyhow, we always had the ability to, to harmonize
and to sing really really well together and it kind of ended up
that both of us were kind of singing and and so we just kind of kept eliminating
(11:26):
people let's put a plug in for the other guys let's uh so all right jack leslie
yep jack leslie was our bass player and we'll get back to him because he was
kind of the last to go kevin defries yep we had kevin defries he was our lead guitar player,
and kevin's a doctor now isn't he a chiropractor i think yeah i think he's doing pretty well Yeah.
Craig Silver was a drummer before, I think before you came along.
(11:49):
Before me. Is that right?
You kind of took his place and then there was a handful of a bunch of other
people that came in and out of that band, but those were some of the early guys in the band. So yeah.
All right. So you worked your way up through, we ended up with being a two-piece that's,
What happened there? Well, you know, money's money. And Paul and I,
we kept looking at these guys, and we thought, well, you know what?
(12:09):
We're doing all this thing.
And at the time, Paul was playing, I always say it was a B3,
but I guess he corrected me. It was a B2, I think.
M3. Or M3. Okay, M3. I don't know anything about organs, but it was an M3. He had a Leslie speaker.
And so all of a sudden, we went without a guitar player. player.
And then we got down to Jack Leslie, our bass player, Tom Gilmore,
(12:32):
that's me, and then, of course, Paul Summers.
So we came up with the name T for Tom, Leslie, Jack's last name,
and then Paul's last name, Summers.
And we played together for quite a while. Well, then on the side,
Paul and I started doing little commercials.
Oh, that's right. I'm glad you brought that up, because we did have a second life going.
Yeah, we had kind of a second little business. production company yeah a little
(12:54):
production company and paul had a studio in his basement and,
we'd do these little ditties for for local businesses yeah
jingles and uh you know we'd put them together
and it kind of i mean i don't know that we ever got paid a whole lot but it
was quite a bit of money back then probably but we would put these together
it didn't take us very long but one day we were sitting in the studio it was
just him and i and we were kind of listening to the playback we had the words
(13:16):
down paul was playing the music um some of them had drums but and most of them
didn't even have drums. We just did the singing.
I said, you know, it needs a little bit more. You know, you need to get some,
your bass pedals out. Get some bass pedals out.
And we kind of, he put the bass pedals to it and we looked at each other and
I said, are you thinking what I'm thinking? And that was the end of Jack.
(13:39):
And Jack, I haven't seen Jack in years, but Paul stayed in contact with him.
And I don't think there's no animosity or anything, but we told Paul,
or we told Jack, Jack, actually, the good news is we're going to keep your name.
So Paul and I then went down to a two-piece, both sharing the singing duties,
and we kept Jack's name for quite a few years.
And we got pretty well known around here.
(14:01):
Now, Tom, if I said I had 100 bucks in my pocket that I'm willing to give you,
if you sang one of our old jingles, could you do it?
Well, we had a, I don't know if I could get all of it, but we did have a local drugstore.
And when they built the big new mall here in Worthington, he opened up a drugstore out there.
So his name was Doug Off, and he lived in Worthington a long time, very well known.
(14:27):
And we came up with a little ditty, and I can't remember exactly how it goes,
but it was something like this.
Something for everyone, something for all. Off-Wall Green Drug, downtown and the mall.
Off-Wall Green Drug.
That's pretty good. And the funny part, years,
(14:48):
and I mean years later, I'm driving across South Dakota, and I've got my woman
with me, and all of a sudden I go, for Christ's sakes, that's me on the radio.
And here we hadn't, we had to be at least 10, 12 years old and they were still using it.
(15:08):
And as we're coming across I-90 heading for Worthington, here I hear this goofy
song that Paul and I had done.
And, you know, of course we didn't have residuals or anything,
but yeah, that's kind of our history.
We had a kind of a real interesting start to everything. you think?
Hey, by the way, that was a good, it was a good job on that jingle.
It kind of, it brought back some memories and stuff.
(15:30):
Unfortunately, I don't have that a hundred bucks that I promised,
but you were a trooper and you sang it pretty good.
I give you credit for that. So yeah, no, we did a lot of jingles and that's
kind of a, uh, uh, an era gone by too.
But so what I'm going to do, Tom, one of these days, uh, I still have all those
archives, all the old, most of that stuff was done.
I don't know if you remember that, but we had this eight Yep,
(15:50):
the 8-track. 8-track, a multi-track tape recorder, a TASCAM.
And so we recorded it on the bigger machine, then we bounced it down to 2-track,
which is also a reel-to-reel machine.
And so then everything was saved on these, eventually it came down to these
little 8-inch reels and 6-inch reels.
And so it's just tape. People don't even know what tape is anymore,
but that's how we used to do it.
(16:11):
I've got those all saved in a warehouse, so I can get at them.
I don't know if they'll play anymore, but I'm going to try and pull them out.
Some of the stuff was on cassette too, too.
So a lot of those old demos. Yeah, we're going way back. That's way back.
So yeah, anyway, so okay. So now those are some great memories.
But so now there was a big stretch in between those days and what we did here
(16:37):
just a couple of months ago, right?
You know, what happened in between for you?
Well, I'll say I'll get my story here later on, but so what are you talking
about? A 30-year stretch, Tom? A 40-year stretch? 40 years.
Well, you know, my, my father had passed away and I took over the family business
and, and, uh, I still stayed in music for a while.
I played in some other bands with, with some other people, but.
(16:58):
You know, those are, I don't even, I think one band was called the Tradewinds
and we had a guitar player that he worked out.
He was a produce manager at a local grocery store.
You know, just your typical small town stuff.
And, but then eventually, you know, I had a family and I was an avid golfer
and I just didn't have time anymore.
So I basically kind of retired from all of that scene and kept track of Paul,
(17:23):
you know, and, you know, I'd check in, not necessarily with Paul,
but I'd kind of watch and see what he was doing.
And then I ran into him, oh man, I don't know, years, years after that,
because, you know, Paul had moved on and he had his career going and a family.
And one thing led to another. And a couple of years ago, he called me up and
said that they were back in Worthington and he had a lot of people telling him
(17:45):
that you got to get back together with Gilmore and do something.
Well, then we kind of let it lay for, I had some knee surgery and things just,
you know, they were still busy, but then the pandemic hit.
And so there was time, and, you know, we started putting things together,
and we did this reunion gig at a local country club here, and it was interesting, to say the least.
(18:07):
Well, what I think is kind of, what I think is really kind of nice about this,
Tom, is that, you know, we played music together, what, 40 years ago,
and then we had a little sabbatical that was probably 30 years to 40 years in between there.
And we got back together again and played.
And I think, what did we practice two or three times really?
I was about it. But it was pretty much, it was pretty much, it was pretty,
(18:30):
it came back pretty naturally.
Yeah. And the interesting thing is we kind of put together a song list and,
but, you know, a lot of people from Worthington, they remembered us and they
remembered a lot of the songs.
Well, unfortunately we knew a lot of those songs or new parts of them,
but we didn't rehearse those. So we only made it into this reunion concert,
(18:50):
you know, about four or five songs where all of a sudden we're doing requests
and we couldn't remember all the verses.
So we just sing the same verse over. But you know what? Everybody had fun. Didn't matter.
And that's really what music is supposed to be. Bring people together. People have a good time.
You know, we missed some notes, but I doubt if anybody out in the audience probably
really didn't care. They were all having a good time.
(19:12):
Music.
Well, you know what? So there's 40 years that passed from when we started doing this up until now.
And so I always knew, Tom, that you were able to tell a pretty good story.
(19:34):
And I always considered you high on the list of conversationalists.
I've got Tom with me. This is the Tom and Paul Show. I just named it right now, by the way.
We'll see where it goes. I like that you put my name first.
Well, it's going to cost you later on. Yeah, I'll bet. Well,
I've told the Brulee story to anybody that knows this. and anybody that's probably
(19:56):
listened to the podcast or listened to us talk here has probably heard parts
of the story. So I'm going to keep my end short here.
But I always tell people that, you know, I started out in Worlington, which I'm proud of.
And I got my early experience, you know, in music here. My first instrument was the accordion.
Tom, I think you asked me if I ever would pick that back up again. And I will. I'd love to.
(20:18):
But I had a weird little twist in my life. I was an adopted kid and found out
at some point in my life that I discovered my true heritage.
My mom and dad, and Tom can probably verify this, he knew Irwin Clarence,
but, you know, they were wonderful parents, but they told me I was French-Canadian,
and there was never anything wrong with that.
Most of the people in town knew that or thought that.
(20:41):
Turns out that after I lost both of my parents, my wife discovered my adoption
papers, and, of course, one thing led to another.
We ended up finding our family back on the Lower Brule Sioux Reservation,
And first thing you know, Tom, is we're officially back into the Native American
world, found a biological family and looked for a way to assimilate back into that culture.
(21:02):
And boom, the group Brulee came out of that because I stayed in music and wanted
to express the experience that I had gone through. So there was how Brulee started.
Now, while that's going on, I know that you kind of heard our name pop up once in a while.
So, what was your, from the outside world looking in and from somebody who we
kind of grew up together, what was going through your head when you heard of
(21:26):
this group Brule and the Summers Kid and you must have thought,
what in the heck is this guy going through?
Well, first off, I've got to tell you a little bit about my family.
My family, the Gilmore family, grew up in Pipestone, Minnesota,
and famous for Pipestone.
They make peace pipes out of. I guess that's not the proper term anymore. It's okay.
(21:47):
Is it okay? Yeah. I know they call them different things now.
So I was always around Native American Indians.
I used to go out with my dad and my Uncle Willard, and we'd go out to the quarry
there, and we'd actually watch them quarry.
Stuff. And they used to have a pageant there called the Hiawatha Pageant.
And my uncle, he did all the lighting for that.
He was with Northern States Power at the time. And it was quite a pageant.
(22:11):
They had a guy dive off a big cliff and there's the three maidens or the big stones that are there.
And there's a lot of history there at that national monument.
But, you know, when I found out about all this with Paul, you know,
he wrote a book. I was a little little upset that I wasn't in the book.
But anyhow, I've always loved the Indian culture.
(22:31):
And unbeknownst to Paul, over the years, I've got many, many books on the Indians.
I collect Indian pottery.
And I've always felt, I don't know, kind of a kinship. Maybe it was just because
when I was a little boy, I just looked up to these people so much.
And when I found out about Paul, and they started brulee, and I found out that
they were, you know, getting out there and getting getting successful and putting
(22:55):
their message out, I found a real sense of pride.
I was really proud of Paul that he was able to do that and get in touch and
could not even imagine what his journey was like.
I mean, I don't know that Paul was ever, and Paul could speak to that,
I don't know that he was ever torn between the two, but I'm sure there were
times when he probably was a little confused and really wasn't sure what happened to him.
(23:17):
I can tell you this, Paul was a very, you know, back when we played,
Paul was, he was just like any other, you know, he was a kid and,
you know, we played and, you know, Paul had a family and we were young, we were young.
And, but now Paul has found a, at least in my view, he's a very spiritual person.
And I think I've become a better person just reconnecting with him and playing music again.
(23:40):
And I'd like to think that he enjoys it too.
I mean, we're, we're never going to have the commercial success that Brulee
had, but I don't think that's really what either one of us are in this for.
We enjoy We enjoy playing together. We like singing together.
We like seeing people smile and having fun.
And, you know, so all those years, I guess, yeah, I just kind of followed him.
I never ever thought I was going to get a phone call, to be honest.
(24:03):
But I've been like, it's just like I've been, like I've turned into a kid again.
You know, I have a friend that plays drums and he ended up selling me one of his drum sets.
And I've really gotten back into music. I'm starting to write a few things.
And, you know, for all the years that Paul has wrote all that music,
and I have a lot of his CDs.
(24:23):
Some of it needs words to it, and I'm going to really work hard and try to get some of that done.
That's pretty cool, Tom. So what you're saying, and this is the first,
right? So what you're saying is that you're going to tackle that task and see
where it takes you? Yeah.
See if you can spin maybe a line. I know you're a good lyricist.
I've known that since I told you that from the very beginning.
And I just have never had that skill myself or that knack.
(24:47):
So maybe that'll be kind of interesting to see where that ends up.
Yeah, well, you know, you're young and, you know, I used to draw and I used
to write poetry and stuff. But then, you know, kind of life gets in the way for a while.
You got to make money, you're raising kids and you kind of lose it.
But it's always, it never really goes away. It just hides from you for a while.
(25:07):
And if nothing else, I guess getting back with Paul has just opened up a lot of things to me.
I'm viewing my own life differently. Currently, I'm 73, so like I said, I'm an avid golfer.
I'm not very good anymore, but I know I'm on the back nine.
And this has just been kind of a rebirth for me.
(25:28):
And I'm just enjoying the heck out of it. I'm having a ball.
I think you've got a few more rounds to go. Well, I hope so.
Okay, listen, Tom, listen. Thank you very much for that sentiment.
It's nice to hear you say that. And I think that you've always had a pretty spiritual nature.
Sure maybe it's maybe it's changed a little bit over the the
recent history here if if so i think that's kind of
(25:50):
neat to see because we all change and to grow and develop as our lives go by
yeah so paul the the other question i had you know just looking from afar you
know you uh all of a sudden you guys did the uh uh the big show out there at
mount rushmore and how did that all come about and i said well.
All right so you can tell i don't even hardly know where to start with that
(26:13):
you know it should It should be simple, it should be an easy answer to it,
Essentially, I'll try to break it down without getting too lengthy.
We had been playing out in the Black Hills area, and one of our regular haunts
out there was Crazy Horse, Crazy Horse Memorial.
We'd stop there two or three times every summer, and sometimes we'd get paid, sometimes we wouldn't.
(26:34):
Sometimes they'd let us in, sometimes we just wouldn't make the cut.
You never quite knew. We happened to be up there one summer when some of the
people from the Regis and Cassie Lee crew, In fact, they had a morning talk show back in those days.
And they knew ahead of time that they were going to be doing a live show at Mount Rushmore.
So they sent an advanced team out to check some things out to put that show together.
(26:59):
And one of their staff was crazy for us. We just happened to be there that day,
that hour that they were coming through.
And they didn't even talk to us then. We got a phone call like six months later
from somebody that said they'd seen us at Mount Rushmore. We want to know if
we would be interested in being part of this TV production.
And we said, yeah. And so that's how it happened. That's how the invitation came up.
(27:23):
And so, you know, that itself is the timing for that to actually happen,
you know, was one in a million, honestly.
But that's just, that's like the tip of the iceberg.
The actual making the show happen was a whole other thing. that I don't know
if we want to go there or not, but, you know, that's how we got the invite to come play there. Yeah.
(27:48):
Yeah, it's interesting. Sometimes it's just luck. Or you're in the right spot
at the right place, or sometimes you're in the wrong spot at the wrong time
or whatever. But, yeah, it's funny how things work out.
Well, it sure wasn't a decision made by a hot shot manager or a booking agent
or a talent agency or a record company.
None of those. That's typically how that would have happened.
(28:09):
And promotional company. I mean, Mount Rushmore. I mean, it could have been
any of those. Hey, Tom, here's something else.
You know, when we got the invite to be part of the show up there,
and by the way, we were what they call the musical guests.
So we had one little segment during the show, but most of our stuff we did was
(28:29):
bumpers coming in and out of their commercials.
And so we hadn't yet completely opened up the door into Mount Rushmore.
So we were like one of the first Native American, you know, performances to
take the stage up there on the main amphitheater at the base of the heads of the presidents.
(28:53):
You know, so that was tricky, too.
Well, thank you for sharing that with us because sometimes it's,
I don't know if it's a divine intervention or what, but that's just a wonderful thing.
And really, in some respects, it's kind of a double-edged sword.
(29:14):
There you are above a monument on some of the most sacred ground to your people. Yeah.
Well, we had, believe me, there was those in the culture that that kind of watched
what we were doing, and they weren't exactly 100% favorable with their critique
(29:35):
of our performance up there.
And so, you know, we had to kind of play that, you know, we had to play that hand carefully.
And, you know, as time went by, we knew that the test of time would let us know
if it was acceptable or not.
And as the years went by, I would say, Tom,
(29:55):
really, though it took about i would say it took about seven years
after that performance with regis and kathy lee to really to evaluate if it
was the right thing to do if it worked if it made a dent if it made an impact
in the culture if made an impact in the world and so yeah it all happened in
45 minutes you know and we probably played them we probably played a total of.
(30:18):
Five four or four and a half minutes all together over
that 45 minute show and so when you think
about that's not much time to make a well you
know and just looking at the the climate that we
live in now with with all this wokeism who knows if it would have ever happened
you might have you might have you don't know but but you might have had so much
pressure from from your community to not do this and thank god you did because
(30:42):
i think it was a genesis to start bringing bringing the people together and
bringing them together through music.
What better, what better thing? And there's a, I mean, there's,
there's something Paul that I can't, I don't know even know how to put it in
words, but I can just tell.
And I tell these listeners is you, and I'm not trying to promote Brule,
(31:02):
but there are songs there that just move me.
And in some respects, we're all native Americans. I mean, hell,
I, you know, we said, what are you? I said, I'm an American.
That's where I was born. But there's something about that area.
There's something about the whole Midwest that you don't find anywhere else.
No. And I can tell you that for a fact. We've had, we've traveled.
(31:24):
Well, you have too, Tom. Yeah.
We've both traveled around, you know, we've been around the world a time or two.
And there is something, there is something about it. I've always felt like the
culture still has, the Native American culture still has a lot to share with
the world, has a lot to give the world.
And as times change, you know, the welcoming hands, you know,
(31:48):
for that thing that we're trying to give the world hasn't always been so receptive.
I mean, there's been a need for it. I think the need now is greater than ever.
Will anybody, you know, find it and accept it? You know, that's the question.
A handful of people who have got their eyes wide open kind of see that and recognize it.
But in one of our future shows, Tom, we talked about Regis and Cassie Leesing.
(32:10):
Let's talk about how that works.
That one in a million little slot, how that brought us up to the actual concert
for reconciliation of the cultures which happened in 2007.
That was another monumental moment for the culture and for Brule and the chances
of that happening ever again probably are zero.
(32:32):
It had to happen, right? At that particular time, there was maybe a three-year
window when that could have happened.
An entire history, I'm not just talking about just recent history,
I'm talking about I don't care if you want to go back 800 years,
up till right now, I'm telling you there was about a three-year slot where that
actually could have happened, and it did happen.
And sometimes when you think, we just happened to be standing there at that
(32:55):
time, and they happened to have this invite to open up the door a little bit.
They happened to have a park ranger there who was the first Native American superintendent.
All that stuff had to click before we were really given the green light to go
do that, but that's a whole other story.
Yeah, and I would like to think that there was a reason that that happened,
and it was supposed to happen, and it's only going to be for the better of everybody.
(33:20):
Well, we'll dive into that one of our next shows. How's that sound? Sounds great.
Music.
(33:52):
Well, hello again, and this is Tom Gilmore. I'm here with Paul Summers, or Paul Arash.
I guess he can go by both. To me, he'll always be Paul Summers.
But I respect, you know, both sides of that.
And I guess that's what I'd like to get into. You know, Paul, I can't even imagine.
First off, you know, it's tough. I knew both Clarence and Irma,
(34:13):
and they were wonderful, wonderful parents.
And, you know, they were your mom and dad.
But they weren't your mother or your father. And I can kind of relate to that same thing.
My ex-wife and I, we had a newborn or a baby when we were in high school,
gave him up for adoption.
(34:34):
We later reconnected. And that's what I always told my son.
I said, just remember, you have a dad and mom. Anybody can be a mother and a father.
And, you know, so I can only imagine when Paul found out about all this,
he had to really be probably somewhat confused, probably a little bit scared,
probably a little nervous.
So I don't know, Paul, you tell me, what was it like when you first found out
(34:57):
that you weren't French-Canadian and that you were adopted and you were American-Indian?
Well, it's a life-changing experience, first of all. And it happens,
I don't know if you've ever heard the term a paradigm shift.
But what's going on there is that what they're talking about with that term
is that you look at something with your eyes, you see it one way.
It could just be a little on the table and maybe you've looked at that as a
(35:20):
pyramid, but you're only seeing it from the front.
And so when you finally realize that it's not a pyramid, it's just two dimensional,
it's just a piece of paper laying there as a triangle, you go,
I've looked at that thing, I thought it was a three-dimensional pyramid my whole life.
And some of you may just finally, somebody turned the page and showed me that
it's not. Well, that's kind of what I went through when I made that discovery.
(35:40):
But to dig right into your question about, you know, finding out about being a different,
you know, a different genetic background, it didn't really hit me.
It took quite a few years for that to really land and to sink in.
It took me a while to digest.
But here's one thing I would like to say, and I'm glad you asked the question, because I'm an adoptee.
(36:03):
I've talked to a lot of adoptees over the years, and everyone's got a different story.
My story, and I'm not the only one that shares this sentiment,
but for me, Irma and Clarence were my mom and dad, just like you'd mentioned.
And I really had very little interest in finding,
well, I'll put it this way, my biological mother and father were no longer alive
(36:23):
when this came up, which probably was the way for it to go because that would
have been a whole other chapter in this thing.
But, and here's one other thing, and then I'll let you, I'll give the microphone back to you.
Without Kathy being involved in the search to go back and to discover that family,
I would have never had the Constitution to do it.
(36:44):
She was the one that felt she had the intuition that there was something of
greater significance to that discovery than just finding a different family.
And for me, it was just like, I already have a mom and dad.
I don't really feel like I need to find other siblings or family. I just had no desire.
And part of that was because I was still in the grieving process early on for
(37:08):
the loss of both parents.
It later, of course, went on to be a good discovery.
But for me it was it
was the assistance of my wife Kathy that
really brought that reunion and in the end was
she was responsible I guess you could say for the entire Brulee
journey hey that
(37:28):
was pretty good timing yeah sure was well Kathy you know
was you know and I've known Kathy not quite
as long as Paul but basically I've known Kathy all my life too
you know her father was a was a businessman and
actually he was a customer of mine and and uh
i think uh and i don't mean this in a
bad way towards paul but kathy was really paul's rock and i think uh i think
(37:49):
paul will tell you that she uh she was really a driving force she stood by him
and and you know if you've written if you know if you've read his book uh it
wasn't all good times tough times hard times oh yeah And you're kind of torn between two worlds,
but she was the one constant and to this day still is.
(38:10):
And, you know, so not only have I been able to be fortunate enough to reconnect
with Paul, but we've reconnected with Kathy too.
And that's just kind of the way it should have been. My ex-wife was in the delivery
room when they had their first baby.
And so there's a lot of kind of different connections and it's fun.
And now you've got a beautiful son, young man, and he's not a little boy by any stretch.
(38:35):
And the connection is just there, but I can't even pretend to know,
how you felt about everything? Because, I mean, I'm sure there was waves of.
Just, I don't know, waves of thoughts and feelings that you didn't know exactly
(38:56):
how to handle, and they probably changed, and it's probably kind of fluid.
Well, there's, I mean, there's two parts to that question, Tom.
There is, you know, there is the emotional part, I think, and the spiritual part.
And yeah, you know, our kids have been along, Shane and Nicole,
both of them have been been part of this journey from the very beginning and we're
behind this whole thing but the other part of it was you
(39:16):
know separate from the the spiritual
part and the personal part was the artistic
side which honestly i had no i had no interest in in pursuing this whole thing
artistically it was designed you know in the long run to be more of a spiritual
journey And so the whole thing, we've taken the music,
(39:40):
some of the music that we had grown up with, and in this case, you and I,
some of that early music that we played, I don't care if it was Sam the Sham
or whether it was the Beatles,
that music carried over and somehow had to merge and morph into the Native American culture.
And that opens up a whole other chapter, Tom.
I mean, people still to this day will kind of ask,
(40:03):
you know, where did the inspiration for your songs come
come from i think you asked me one time and i don't
know how i answered it back back at that time but you know every
little piece of music i always kind of felt
like was a little story in its own musically you know at least at least it was
for me you know like i said before i'm not a lyricist so it was just the melodies
(40:25):
and tunes and they're kind of hard to come up with matter of fact you can't
really do it unless there's something at work in your life spiritually It could be positive,
it could be negative, but they both have the same result.
If it's a heavy, deep emotion, it's going to generate some kind of,
you need an outlet for that.
And in our case, it was the music, those little melodies that you kind of,
(40:47):
you know, listen to once in a while. I know you've listened to some of our music.
Each one was created, maybe one was on the top of a bluff on the Black Hills,
and one might have been on the open prairie as the thunderstorm came rolling across the plains.
And, you know, another one could have been down in the southwest was we're,
you know, standing down there in the middle of the Hopi Reservation.
I mean, it all had its, it all had its inspirations to create a piece of music.
(41:10):
Well, you know, it's a...
It's a journey that most people never get a chance to really take.
You know, it's almost like you had two lives. You were raised in the so-called
white man's world, and then all of a sudden you found out that you were Indian,
and so you're kind of two people mixed in one, and what a beautiful thing.
And it comes out in your music. I think you've said it, that probably one of
(41:32):
the biggest and most satisfying things about your music is you hope that it
can just help to bring people together and just kind of enjoy each other.
Well, I mean, I think, you know, an artist hopes that they can accomplish something
like that with their artwork.
I don't care if it's visual art or if it's photography or if it's music,
and you hope that it affects somebody else, but you don't set out to create it for that purpose.
(41:56):
You know, you do it to try to express that part of your life,
and then after it's, what I found out anyway, is once you've given it a birth,
once you've given it life,
you know, then you sit back a little bit and take a breath, and it's only at
that time you kind of go, well, I wonder if anybody's going to enjoy that.
And it's kind of a secondary thought. So it's nice when somebody does enjoy what you've done.
(42:18):
But, you know, a lot of the struggles, Tom, with Brulee, you know,
had to do with the fact that here we are in the music industry,
which still hasn't totally bought into the idea of our culture,
Native America, being a team player in the big leagues.
So if we hit obstacles over the last, you know, 30 years, years,
I would say, you know, yeah, we've opened up a lot of doors and we've made a
(42:40):
lot of progress and we've had, you know, what I would consider to be plenty
of success, but the obstacles are still out there.
The obstacles have always been the mainstream entertainment industry.
They've just never quite accepted what's happening here. They've never really
let us be part of the, of the, of the major leagues.
And, uh, it's not to be meant to a fault, but they, if you can believe this,
(43:01):
they just, I don't think they know what to do with the, what's a group like Brulee?
Yeah, there's really, I think you've said this before, there's really no category.
There's really no one else doing that kind of music. And even take it down to the instruments.
You know, you play piano. Well, where does that fit into the culture?
Yeah, where does that come in?
And then your daughter, Nicole, a flutist that plays a steel flute,
(43:25):
but she plays it kind of Indian style.
It's a unique sound, very talents.
So everything about you is kind of, it's both worlds, It's kind of just kind
of mixed in and what comes out of it is really a beautiful thing.
Well, thanks for that observation and mentioning that.
It means a lot when it comes from someone like you because you followed it and
you've seen where its origins were at.
(43:47):
You know, I think the really tough thing that still remains out there today
is for the mainstream entertainment industry to just to take notice of what's
going on here. I mean, think about it, Tom, and help me out here. Sure.
Think of a, try to think of a culture across the, around the world, anywhere.
I don't care if it's, if it's, if it's the Celtics, if it's the Germans,
(44:09):
if it's down in the Caribbean part of the country, if it's Brazil,
they all have their, they have their traditional sounds, right?
But they, but they've been able to bring them up into the pop world and,
and they all have their contemporary counterparts to their traditional music.
And most of them are huge categories. I mean, I'm just going
to pick on the latin music explosion which had
(44:29):
its origins back when we were kind of coming up through the ranks back
in the 70s and 80s it was huge now there
is a there's kind of a smaller culture subculture i
call it that carved out its own sound and it just went it took off like gangbusters
i mean look at look at irish music that became you know celtic music i don't
care if it's celtic christmas or i don't care if it's river dance yeah just
(44:52):
went off the charts no we We can go around the whole world and bring it up.
But when it comes to Native America, you've got to go, hold a second.
What are these guys doing?
Where is their... Yeah, there's not a lot.
No, not a lot. If you can come up with the number of acts that are fingers on
(45:13):
your hands, I'd be surprised.
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Well, like you said, the industry really
doesn't know what to do with you guys.
There's really no category. No. And we're not young kids anymore,
Tom. You know, that's starting out here.
And, you know, now when I look back at the next generation coming up,
it's kind of hard to, I'm hopeful, but, you know, it seems like a lot of the
(45:39):
younger generation in our culture,
they have this thing where they're not so interested in trying to work on that
blending of the cultures.
So, in other words, taking the traditional, keeping it contemporary,
they want to be hip-hop, they want to be a rapper, they want to be hip-hop artists.
(46:00):
They'd rather be in a country band than anything else. Card rockers, blues?
Yeah, blues. If you've heard of all, I mean, there's more blues,
there's more Indian blues bands than there are what you would call a group like
Blu-Lay, so I'm not sure where it's going to go.
So I'm hopeful, but we'll have to see, you know, what the next generation is able to come up with.
(46:21):
Well, I hope that...
I hope that brulee is kind of a starting point for young Native American musicians
to get some inspiration from, actually, and take it even farther.
And sometimes that's all it takes. Well, you know, maybe it is.
(46:43):
And, you know, you kind of give me hope there with those words.
So we'll see where it goes.
Tom, I tell you what, I've enjoyed this conversation.
Once again Tom Gilmore and Paul Summers the two of us here,
we had our origins back in the old days and we're still doing some things together
but I'd like to continue this conversation on at some different times if we
(47:06):
can Tom and I'd like to have you kind of be the sounding board for me and I'll do the same for you,
and together why don't we explore some
of the mystical things
about the native american culture we can talk about some of
the spiritual things um we can talk about
some of the some of the we obviously i think music is kind
(47:27):
of right at the top of the list for things we could discuss there's other
really cool things that need to be talked about a little bit you and i talked about
a conversation about the black hills what's happening out there you
mentioned pipestone there's a lot of stuff we could talk about pipes so we could
go right across the midwest here oh yeah very very interesting lot lots of uh
um i don't want to say say remnants but there's there's all kinds of history here and there's rock,
(47:56):
carvings I mean there's just all kinds of stuff that a lot of people aren't
even aware of well let's explore some of that what do you think let's chase
that sounds good well let's see if we can let's see if we can continue this
on and see if anybody will enjoy our conversations and I know I have yeah I
have to all right well we'll say thank you to everybody who's been listening
out there yeah this is Paul this is Tom we'll see you next time.
Music.
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