June 23, 2025 • 29 mins
If you’re caring for someone living with dementia, you know it can take just as much work as any formal job... but many carers need to continue paid work while caring. So how do you manage that juggle?
Wendy loves her work, especially the intellectual challenges it presents, so didn’t want to give up her career when she took on caring duties for her dad. Instead, she moved to part-time employment so she could have more flexibility and control over her and her dad’s schedules.
Find out how to balance work commitments and caring duties, whether that means a frank conversation with your managers or some clever timetabling around medical appointments.
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Hold the Moment is a podcast from Dementia Australia, produced by Deadset Studios and hosted by Jim Rogers and Hamish Macdonald. For support, you can contact the National Dementia Helpline on 1800 100 500 (24 hours a day, seven days a week). The National Dementia Helpline is funded by the Australian Government.
Follow Dementia Australia on Facebook and Instagram or find support resources on our website.
This episode was produced by Gia Moylan and Liam Riordan, with sound design by Ryan Pemberton. The executive producers are Gia Moylan and Kellie Riordan. Production manager is Ann Chesterman.
Dementia Australia and Deadset Studios acknowledge the Traditional Owners of Country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to lands, waters and communities. We pay our respect to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
- Hello, my name is Kevin.
I am a First Nations advocatewith Dementia Australia.
For more than 50,000 yearswe have come together
to trade knowledge, to learn and to teach.
Today, we joined tokeep up that tradition.
So with that in mind,we now pay our respects
to the traditional owners,
to Elders past and present, to those
(00:21):
First Nations peoplejoining us here today.
[Soft Magpie Lark]
[Soft Magpie Lark]
- I still remember this phone call.
[Soft Magpie Lark]
I was standing in my back garden.
And I'm sure if you're listening to this,
you've had some version of this kind
of call at some point in your career.
(00:42):
I just couldn't get through to my boss.
I worked for a show called 'The Project'.
And, sometimes they filmthe show in Sydney.
Sometimes they film it in Melbourne.
And they'd made a decision, to move more
of the episodes back to Melbourne.
And for me, I live in Sydney,that meant more travel.
One of the days I wasgoing to have to travel
to Melbourne was Friday.
(01:04):
And, they wanted me
to take a 10:00am flighteach week to get to Melbourne.
And the thing is, mydad had been diagnosed.
He had moved to an agedcare home in Sydney.
And, I have a really crazy schedule.
I travel a lot, doing shootsduring the week, doing radio,
doing all sorts of stuff.
(01:25):
And Fridays, one of myhosting days, was the morning
where I'd take dad for a swim.
[Soft waves lapping]
We'd go to the Bronte Ocean Pool.It was beautiful.
[Soft waves lapping]
It was relatively early in dad's journey
with Lewy body dementia and Parkinson's.
And, the great thing aboutgoing swimming on Fridays,
(01:46):
was that it was regular, it was routine.
That was critical for dad.
Disruption, change ofhabits, change of schedule.
It was becoming such an ordeal for him.
And so, we just had this little thing.
Most Fridays, I'd go and collect him.
We'd go for a swim, I'd get a coffee.
Maybe he'd get something to eat.
(02:06):
And then I'd drop him backto residential aged care.
[Airplane taking-off]
Getting that 10:00am flight, meant
that I wasn't going to be able to do it.
And I didn't have other days in the week
where I had regular routine, like hosting.
So, it was really going tocause a problem for me.
And my boss just didn't understand.
(02:29):
I don't hold this against my employers.
I know it was probably difficultfor me to fully explain.
But it became a real fight,and I was really distressed.
And I think when I reflecton it, that's the moment
where I couldn't really communicate
or understand, how importantthe caring had become to me.
(02:51):
And I also didn't understandthe conversation I needed
to have with my boss.
And the thing was it wasone of those conversations
that just ratcheted up, itstepped up and up and up.
My boss was digging inover this 10:00am flight.
And I'm thinking to myself,it doesn't make any difference
to you whether I fly at 10 or 12.
And actually for me,there's a huge difference.
(03:12):
If I fly that little bit later,
I can still take dad for the swim.
We can have our moment together.
He can have an outing, hecan feel a bit more human
and like himself.
And to be honest, I alsothink, for my boss, it was
hard to understand thatsomeone that was male,
that didn't have kids was saying,
"I've got family obligations, and these
(03:32):
are really important to me, and, I'm not
going to put everythingyou are asking for,
ahead of this."
In retrospect, I think Ishould have just sat him down
and said, "Listen, thisis what's going on for me,
and I need you to understand."
"I need you to make abit of space for it."
"I need you to accommodate it."
And so now, when I talk topeople who've got a loved one,
(03:53):
a friend, a partner livingwith dementia.
I say to them really clearly:
"Have the conversationwith your employers."
"Read up on the rules,understand what's available
to you as a carer, a support person."
Because actually thereis a lot of regulation
around this stuff.
And if you have a good, thorough,
meaningful conversation about it,
(04:14):
I think you'll probably land in a
better space than what I did.
When someone you love isdiagnosed with dementia,
it can feel like the whole worldjust stops.
But it doesn't.
Caring for someone living
(04:34):
with dementia, is challengingenough on its own.
But you still have to look after yourself.
Your home, your family.
It can also mean doing caring work on top
of your job or your career.
G'day. I'm Hamish Macdonald.
- And I'm Jim Rogers.
This is Hold the Moment, apodcast from Dementia Australia
(04:54):
by people living withdementia and their families.
Hamish, you know all about juggling
and balancing full-time work,caring responsibilities,
and your crazy schedule.What was it like for you?
- Being honest, it waspretty tough I think Jim.
And, I suppose the other partabout working in the media is
(05:16):
that when you're on TV orradio, it's kind of showtime.
You've got to deliver, andwhatever's going on at home
or in the back of your mind,has to be put to the side.
And, I think particularlyin the early stages
of dad's diagnosis and then you know,
his eventualjourney through dementia.
That was hard to do at times.
You know, I'd be getting callsfrom the nursing home when I
was on the desk ready togo on air at The Project.
(05:39):
Towards the end, dadbecame a bit disorientated.
Sometimes he could usethe phone, sometimes not.
And I'd get phone calls from him while I
was on air hosting. (- Oh my goodness)
- And it was really hard to take because
you were immediatelydrawn away from the
role that you were doing.
I was pleased that hewas reaching out to me
or that carers were reaching out to me.
(05:59):
But I did stress and worry a lot
that I couldn't give it the attention
that I really wanted to.
You know, I'd be sendingfrantic messages in the middle
of interviews with politiciansabout, (- Oh my goodness)
You know, national politics saying,
"I can't talk right now, but
I'll call you back in 10 minutes."
"Can you just let me knowif dad is all right?"
- That would have beenhard and so distracting.
- Yeah, a lot of pressure.
But, I guess in the end I had to trust
(06:23):
that the other supportsthat I had put in place
for him were good and werereliable and that he was safe.
And I think that's something to remember.
You can never do everything.
It's about making surethat the systems are there,
the supports are there, sothat if there's a moment
and there will be, where you can't step in
or step up, that that person will be okay.
(06:48):
- Workplaces can be veryflexible when it comes
to raising children or lookingat other chronic diseases,
but they don't necessarilyhave processes in place
that extend to supportingsomebody who might be caring
for someone living with dementia.
- Kaele Stokes is the ExecutiveDirector of Services,
Advocacy and Researchat Dementia Australia.
(07:10):
She's worked with countlessfamilies, so she knows
how tough it is for new carers.
- You might end up playingthe role of educator
for your workplace arounddementia and what the
caring responsibilities might look like.
And also how they might change over time.
So, having upfrontconversations with your
workplace and reminding themof their obligations under
(07:34):
disability legislation,et cetera, that if,
somebody is living with dementia,
it is classed as a a disability.
And so understanding thatthere needs to be supports
to empower a family carer tocontinue their caring role,
as well as working can be important.
- But it sort of feelsa bit weird, I found.
(07:54):
Trying to talk toyour employer about this,
because it didn't feel totally justified.
Certainly in my mind anyway.
You know, my dad was diagnosed.
We'd moved him into residential care,
so it wasn't like he waswithout care or support.
But, I was trying to give himroutine in and around that.
(08:15):
And yeah, it really kind of fell on
deaf ears in my workplace.
What's the obligation of the employer?
- Well, I mean, I think itdepends on the individual
employer and how they respond to situation
and the level of flexibilitythat they are willing
to provide.
And it can be difficult, right?
(08:35):
Because caring responsibilities
can change quitesignificantly or suddenly.
- And so are there certain obligations
though on the employer?
- Well, it depends on whatlegislation is determining the,
the workplace, whetherthere are particular
regulations that are enforced.
But, ultimately workplacesdo have an obligation
(08:57):
to support their workers
and look at how they can supportflexible work arrangements
where it is practicableand possible to do.
So, having those conversationsas early as possible
and as, as openly as possibleis, is really important.
- What steps can you considerif your employer isn't all
that supportive or friendly about it?
(09:19):
- Well, often what wehear from family carers is
that they will leave orchange their employment.
And that is sometimeseasier said than done.
But also getting legal advicewhere there are particular
clear breaches of, of legislation
or it's pressing up againstthose legislative requirements,
can be helpful.
(09:40):
But, ideally, you don'twant to get to that point.
You want to have conversationsas early as possible.
And certainly the conversationswe've had with families
and carers and actually withpeople living with dementia
as well, demonstrate
that most employers are looking at ways
that they can supportsomebody in their caring role.
It's often that they just don'tunderstand what's required
(10:04):
to support somebody living with dementia.
They sort of tend to think of it
as many people in the communitydo that, oh, you know,
they're not able to make anydecisions for themselves.
They require full-time care.
And that's a very simplisticview of supporting someone.
- So some people, as youmentioned, do end up leaving work
or find themselves havingto take time out in order
to provide care.
(10:25):
Are there government payments supports
that you can get access to?
- Certainly carer supportpayments are in place.
Again, they can be, you know, challenging
to translate into yourindividual circumstances
and know who to talk to, but,
talking to an independent organisation
like Dementia Australia can
help in terms of understandingwhere you can go for help.
(10:47):
- What about a sort of longer term plan?
Because I guess inretrospect I think, well,
Why didn't I sit down
and talk to my bosses aboutwhat dad was going through
and how this might evolve?
And how initially it may only be here
and there, that I need to be around,
but that actually over timethings are going to look
different, and my contribution may change.
(11:10):
Is that something you can do?
Is it reasonable to approach it that way?
- It is absolutely reasonable. Yeah.
And I think it, it doesstart to negate some
of those more awkwardconversations down the track
where things happen in a hurry
because you're trying to upskill
and educate your employerwhilst you're also learning
this stuff for yourself,which can be really hard.
(11:30):
- What about though, if youdon't know that's what's coming?
Because I guess that's, youknow, that's the, the benefit
of hindsight is you sort of think about
how could I have done this differently?
I'm conscious that formany people listening,
maybe they're at the start of a journey
and you know, the horizon is not obvious.
- It isn't obvious.
We do have quite a few post diagnostic
(11:51):
support programmes that are for families
and individuals as well asgroups to work through some of
that, because it is a bigmystery for a lot of people.
Or you know, there's asort of sense of diagnosis
and then nothing else after that.
So, understanding what sortof changes might occur over
(12:12):
trajectory of dementia.Understanding that it is
very much dependent on the individual.
The type of dementia that they have.
The sort of person that they are.
How the dementia affectstheir particular brain.
All of those things arevery much individual.
But, some of the challenges that
that people will experiencewill be pretty consistent.
You know, workplacesgenerally are pretty flexible
(12:34):
for other health conditions.
Cancer diagnoses.
Children. Caring for, for kids.
So it's, it's importantthat they are understanding
and thinking aboutdementia in the same way.
- It's such a common experiencefor people to handle caring
for somebody and working.
(12:56):
I recently met Wendy
and she was caring forboth of her parents.
Her dad is diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
And has been in residentialcare for seven years.
While her mom lives with amild cognitive impairment
and has recently movedinto residential care too.
Wendy's also a mother and a grandmother
(13:17):
and someone who really loves her work.
So she never wanted togive it up completely.
And when her parents needed her help,
she wasn't entirely alone.
She and her brother divide and conquer,
when it comes to caring.
- I tend to do the on-the-ground stuff.
And he tends to do the stuffthat can be done remotely.
(13:39):
So, in the beginning thatmight look like me driving mum
and dad somewhere to attendan appointment or something.
And he might be using aproduct to, we use TeamViewer
to look into mum and dad's computer
when they need a little bit of assistance.
And that's been fantastic.
(14:02):
He came up with a greatidea of having video calls
with them on a weekly basis.
So we would video call withdad on a Monday, beginning
of his week, and wewould have a lovely chat.
But we'd also becomeaware of particular things
that we needed to help withor were on the horizon.
And then we would have acall with mum on a Wednesday
(14:24):
because that was halfway through the week.
And then we could tap into,well, had things progressed?
What did we need to do tosupport her, et cetera.
And then outside those video calls,
you've also got pre sometimes
and posts sometimes to makesure things go smoothly.
(14:44):
- So Jim, what does Wendyactually do for work?
- She's working for anonprofit as an accountant
and she loves her work.
And she mentioned it to me a few times,
but since she startedcaring for her parents,
she's gone from full-time to part-time
and that's allowed herto have a little bit
more flexibility.
- It actually means thatI can do the self-care
(15:06):
that allows me to be a carer
and allows me to enjoy my career.
So, if you are trying tojuggle things too much,
you just can't do it all.
So by structuring yourweek, by working part-time,
you can actually allow yourselfthe space to do the things
that you know you wantto do and you need to do.
(15:27):
What's tended to happen overthe last few years is sort
of an adaptation from when I was a mum
and I was workingpart-time for caring roles
and I had a sick child.
And I've applied some ofthat as things have changed.
And I apply it now.
So, I think one of theshaping is just coming
(15:49):
to terms at some point with the fact
that nobody can have it all.
I was brought up in thegeneration where we left school
and girls were told you cando everything you want to do.
And that simply is not possible,
unless you get incredibly lucky
with a support system behind it.
So I think each familyunit makes decisions.
(16:09):
And so it's not just me making a decision,
it's my husband making a decision about
how we think our familyunit can meet the things
that we think are important in our lives.
That then comes backto, well, it's important
that I do have a role where Iget professional stimulation
and it's also important that I have a role
where I can care for mum and dad.
(16:31):
And especially as beingan immigrant family
where I don't have anextended family network.
I am the only one on the ground.
- How much of your worklife and the job that you do
and the hours that you work, how much of
that actually shapes your roleas a carer for your parents?
- I've picked a careerwhere you have deadlines.
(16:53):
- Yeah.- And you're caring. You have
deadlines too, and they clash.
So one thing I've done,
there was an unrelatedrequest from my employer,
"Could I work Monday mornings?"
And that was fantastic
because at first I thought,Oh gosh, do I want to do that?
And I thought, you knowwhat? It's actually
going to solve my problem.
And it also takes the pressureoff the entire scenario
(17:14):
of a medical appointmentbecause you're not
in the appointmentthinking, I need this to
finish in 20 minutes becauseI've got to get back to work.
So you can actually be inthe moment with mum or dad
or both, and the specialist.
Or you can be in the moment in the queue
to Centrelink on hold for 40 minutes
because you're not thinking,"Oh my God, I need to go back."
(17:35):
- Absolutely. It sounds asthough organisation is the name
of the game, and you've got so many hats
that you are putting on
and choosing which you wantto prioritise, basically.
- It's organisation,
but it's also creating a scenario
where you've given yourselfflexibility.
When you have, forexample, you have to solve
a problem with Services Australia.
(17:56):
And it has to be solved by next Wednesday.
And you also have a board reportthat has to be done by Tuesday.
Or the government wants the BAS return
by the 21st of the month.
Spreading your work life over for
that week gives you theoptions to have a bit of a,
I don't know, on onelevel it's a Gantt chart,
but that sounds very fancy.
(18:17):
It's just sort of these overlapping
things that need to be done.
- Yeah, I think it's importantas well to remember with
that 'to-do' list, as you tickthem off, it's an achievement.
Each thing is tick, tick, tick, done.
You're getting somewhere.
Because it is overwhelmingfor anybody caring.
- That is a very, very important point.
Because you wake up in themorning thinking you're going
to do a BAS or a this or a that at work
(18:40):
and in your caring role.
And it's really important to take a moment
of reflection maybe during theday, at the end of the day.
Because you may have thoughtyou were going to do A, B, C, D.
And you may have ended up doing M, S, Z.
And you need to acknowledge to yourself
that you did accomplish a lot.
It just wasn't what youthought you were going
to do when you woke up that morning.
(19:02):
And so it reframes it interms of feeling devastated
that you know, you can't do this
and you're not coping, togoing, well actually I was on
that phone call and I discovered I needed
to do this extra activity andI decided it was important.
So the thing over there hadto go. I have achieved a lot.
- How'd you deal with it when it all seems
to collide, sometimes?
(19:23):
- You just need to accept that
that particular situation is as it is.
For example,
you just have to acceptthat the 1800 number
for Services Australia,just does not give you an
option to stay on the line.
You can't get angry about it.
You just have to go, 'Okay.'
If it's just said "Allour offices are busy,
ring back another time."
(19:44):
- Yes, that's true.
- Just have to go, "That's what it is."
So let's think about a different strategy.
And I think that's more, maybeyou lean into professional
strategies too and you go, okay,
well if the computer suddenly failed
and your BAS was due, you justhave to think up a strategy.
You can't cry becausethat's not going to fix...
You've got to find a differentway to do something.
- I always say to mykids, you know, it's not about
(20:05):
what what comes at you,it's, it's how you handle it.
So really that is thestructure. (- Breathe)
You've just got to reallybreathe and take that on board.
Tell me about volunteeringat your dad's care home.
How did that come about?
- It came about becausedad was reluctant to go
(20:27):
and do some exercise.
And it was partly afunction of him forgetting
that he wanted to do it.
And it was partly a functionthat it wasn't something
that he was naturally attracted to.
As an IT professional,he spent many, many hours
at his desk doing some incredible things.
And he's producedsome terrific products
for large corporations.
(20:47):
And so it's in his nature to sit there.
And we needed him to genuinelywant to keep his muscles
and the blood flow to hisbrain and everything going.
- Which is so important.
- Yeah, to play to his strengths.
Whilst some things are disappearing.
To keep those things we cankeep for as long as possible.
And so, I was asked if Iwould entertain the idea
(21:10):
of helping with an exercisegroup at dad's care location
because if I went along there
and dad wanted to spend time with me,
he was more likely to goalong too. (-Very smart)
That is, and that isin fact what happened.
It was a bit difficult.
Dad also has a conditioncalled 'Hyperacusis'.
And that is the opposite ofdeafness, I guess you'd say.
(21:32):
So things are very loud.
And, funnily enough
that actually prevented usunderstanding dementia was
playing a role in dad's life at first.
Because when you want torecoil from noises, you tend
to socialise less
and you tend to promote theability to have a problem.
That has swapped out that role now
(21:53):
to a discussion group role.
And that has been really wonderful.
The discussion group for dad.
We talk about all sorts
of things and he really enjoys that.
- So what keeps you motivated as a carer?
- I look back at one particularinstance as an example.
I was unlucky enough to havethe entire lovely experience
(22:14):
of 'chemo' years ago,
and dad, who doesn't reallydo the whole vomiting thing,
accompanied me for an entire day into the
hospital and sat with me.
Every time I think that it'stoo much doing what I'm doing,
I go, you know what? Hehung in there. (laughing)
I'm going to hang in here too.
- Tell me about the financialtoll of a part-time job
(22:35):
and what does that meanfor your retirement?
- It means currentlyputting as many dollars
as I can into 'risk' to catch up my Super.
It's interesting. Society thinks it's not
gendered, but it is. It's still gendered.
And conditions have got a lot better
for women, but there isstill this underlying problem
with women having missedout on Super of my age
(22:57):
and now trying to catch up.
There's the additional issue of
how do you choose a rolein your professional life
that allows you to get the balance right?
And that sometimes meanschoosing between something
that sounds absolutelyfascinating and difficult
and challenging,
but not falling into a trap offinding something that's dull
(23:18):
and boring and not stimulating.
Because if the entireidea of going to work is
to actually get some joy outof it and some personal growth
and do some interesting things.
By swapping out of a role
and going into something
that you can clock off at aparticular minute, you have
to be very, very careful
that you don't end up notliking your work at all.
(23:41):
And so, one of the thingsI've been lucky enough
to do, is finding myselfin roles where some
of the work I do is moreprocedural, producing some
of those reports, butthen projects come along.
So I think it's really importantto, when you're looking
at how you're going to need tochange your work, to make sure
that whatever role you takeon has a capacity there
(24:03):
for interesting and exciting.
It may come and go, that'squite good sometimes.
So for example, at the moment,I've got a really awesome
challenge that I've been asked to do.
And I know for the next little while that
that's going to give me ahuge amount of stimulation
that I might not have got in arole had I continued on my
particular career trajectory.
But I also know that it comes
(24:26):
to an end at some point.
We all need a project
that we know we areactually going to finish.
- Yes.- And that is not dementia.
Because the project ofdementia, if I can call it
that crudely, is one that evolves
and probably grows bigger at the moment.
- And you also have to beflexible to move with it
and keep seeing the different changes
(24:48):
and adapting your busylife, your work, (- Yeah)
everything to that.
- And I like that idea becausethat's then what you do
with your career and yougo, okay, I'm thinking
that in the next yearthis is going to happen.
So therefore, in this part ofmy, other part of my world,
I'm going to make some sort ofsituation where I can adapt it.
So, for example,
Some weeks I will work morehours than other weeks.
(25:09):
And, you also have to be verycareful about not getting ahead
of the game, because you canget all enthusiastic about
something, whicheverpart of your life it is.
And you've just got to go,hang on a second, let's,
let's see what we can do with this.
Sick leave is a very interesting thing.
Because if you're a full-timeworker, I would dare to say
that if you need to go to anappointment, it's understood
(25:33):
that you need to go to an appointment,
and you take carers leave or sick leave.
- Yeah.- As a part-time person,
that's much more tricky sometimes.
- It's accepted that it'sin your own time, basically.
- It is. And that's areally, really difficult one.
It makes it difficultbecause then I'm trying
to have sick leave todo those various roles
and do it in that space thatyou said that's like, well,
(25:54):
you don't work Monday afternoon.
So it's that. But if thespecialist rings you up
and says, I can't do Monday
afternoon, I've got to do some other time
- You're in trouble.
- Then, then what do I do?
And that's where it really comes down to
having a really excellent relationship
with the people you work for
and them knowing thatyou do opt out sometimes
to do those things.
But then you will juggleit at a different time.
(26:16):
And I think and hopethat's where we've landed.
And it's that trust.The trust (- Absolutely)
between employee and employer.
- It sounds as though you've got a lot
on your plate, but you are nailing it.
It's such pleasure to meet you and
I'm in awe of
how brilliantly you'rehandling everything.
- No, not brilliantly.
And I think that's one of thethings we need to recognise
(26:38):
that we all as carers orpeople living with dementia,
Or whoever we are, we all have apublic face and a private face.
And we're all very keen whenpeople say, "How are you going?"
We're all very keen to say, "Oh fine."
- But we know we're not.
- Yeah.- We're all like swans.
- We are. That's such a good analogy.
Because we do what we can do
and then we just have tohave a healthy ability
(26:59):
to just laugh at the rubbishthat we can't deal with.
- Definitely.
- And justgo, it is just rubbish.
Going back to awesome cultureat work, we have a programme
where employees are encouraged to look
(27:21):
after their mental healthand their physical health.
And so yesterday in themiddle of my workday,
I logged off the computer andI did half an hour of yoga.
It's fantastic initiative of our company
and it pays massivedividends for all of us.
Whether it be me with the dementia impact
or whether it be anybodyelse with whatever.
(27:46):
So I'm truly gratefulfor some of the things
that are going on in ourbusiness culture, and I hope,
and I wish that other people will find
themselves in that same situation.
Because I know it's very, verytough for some other people.
(28:14):
- Thanks again to Wendy forsharing her story with us.
There's so much good advice in there.
And I just love Wendy'sattitude towards everything.
She doesn't sugarcoat anything,
but she doesn't let setbacksbring her down either.
- Now, if you can relate to Wendy
and you'd like a bit ofhelp balancing your own work
with your caring responsibilities,
we've got a bonus episode for you.
(28:36):
You'll hear from Kristen
who works on the DementiaAustralia helpline.
- Kristen's great.
And she gives reallyuseful practical tips on
all things caring.
- You can find that bonus episode on the
Dementia Australia website
or in your podcast app right now.
And if you want to go even deeper, you can
call the helpline yourself.
It's available 24/7 every day of the year.
(28:58):
- The number is 1800 100 500.
Hold the Moment is a podcastfrom Dementia Australia
produced by Deadset Studios.
You can find more episodes
and resources on DementiaAustralia's website
(29:18):
dementia.org.au.
The show is hosted by me, Jim Rogers.
- And by me, Hamish Macdonald.
The executive producers areKellie Riordan and Gia Moylan.
The producers are Madeleine Hawcroft
and Liam Riordan.
Production Manager is Ann Chesterman.
Sound designed by Ryan Pemberton.
A special thanks to the wholeteam at Dementia Australia
(29:40):
and to everyone who sharedtheir stories on this podcast.
- Hello, my name is Kevin.
I am a First Nations advocatewith Dementia Australia.
For more than 50,000 yearswe have come together
to trade knowledge, to learn and to teach.
Today, we joined tokeep up that tradition.
So with that in mind,we now pay our respects
to the traditional owners,
to Elders past and present, to those
(00:21):
First Nations peoplejoining us here today.
[Soft Magpie Lark]
[Soft Magpie Lark]
- I still remember this phone call.
[Soft Magpie Lark]
I was standing in my back garden.
And I'm sure if you're listening to this,
you've had some version of this kind
of call at some point in your career.
(00:42):
I just couldn't get through to my boss.
I worked for a show called 'The Project'.
And, sometimes they filmthe show in Sydney.
Sometimes they film it in Melbourne.
And they'd made a decision, to move more
of the episodes back to Melbourne.
And for me, I live in Sydney,that meant more travel.
One of the days I wasgoing to have to travel
to Melbourne was Friday.
(01:04):
And, they wanted me
to take a 10:00am flighteach week to get to Melbourne.
And the thing is, mydad had been diagnosed.
He had moved to an agedcare home in Sydney.
And, I have a really crazy schedule.
I travel a lot, doing shootsduring the week, doing radio,
doing all sorts of stuff.
(01:25):
And Fridays, one of myhosting days, was the morning
where I'd take dad for a swim.
[Soft waves lapping]
We'd go to the Bronte Ocean Pool.It was beautiful.
[Soft waves lapping]
It was relatively early in dad's journey
with Lewy body dementia and Parkinson's.
And, the great thing aboutgoing swimming on Fridays,
(01:46):
was that it was regular, it was routine.
That was critical for dad.
Disruption, change ofhabits, change of schedule.
It was becoming such an ordeal for him.
And so, we just had this little thing.
Most Fridays, I'd go and collect him.
We'd go for a swim, I'd get a coffee.
Maybe he'd get something to eat.
(02:06):
And then I'd drop him backto residential aged care.
[Airplane taking-off]
Getting that 10:00am flight, meant
that I wasn't going to be able to do it.
And I didn't have other days in the week
where I had regular routine, like hosting.
So, it was really going tocause a problem for me.
And my boss just didn't understand.
(02:29):
I don't hold this against my employers.
I know it was probably difficultfor me to fully explain.
But it became a real fight,and I was really distressed.
And I think when I reflecton it, that's the moment
where I couldn't really communicate
or understand, how importantthe caring had become to me.
(02:51):
And I also didn't understandthe conversation I needed
to have with my boss.
And the thing was it wasone of those conversations
that just ratcheted up, itstepped up and up and up.
My boss was digging inover this 10:00am flight.
And I'm thinking to myself,it doesn't make any difference
to you whether I fly at 10 or 12.
And actually for me,there's a huge difference.
(03:12):
If I fly that little bit later,
I can still take dad for the swim.
We can have our moment together.
He can have an outing, hecan feel a bit more human
and like himself.
And to be honest, I alsothink, for my boss, it was
hard to understand thatsomeone that was male,
that didn't have kids was saying,
"I've got family obligations, and these
(03:32):
are really important to me, and, I'm not
going to put everythingyou are asking for,
ahead of this."
In retrospect, I think Ishould have just sat him down
and said, "Listen, thisis what's going on for me,
and I need you to understand."
"I need you to make abit of space for it."
"I need you to accommodate it."
And so now, when I talk topeople who've got a loved one,
(03:53):
a friend, a partner livingwith dementia.
I say to them really clearly:
"Have the conversationwith your employers."
"Read up on the rules,understand what's available
to you as a carer, a support person."
Because actually thereis a lot of regulation
around this stuff.
And if you have a good, thorough,
meaningful conversation about it,
(04:14):
I think you'll probably land in a
better space than what I did.
When someone you love isdiagnosed with dementia,
it can feel like the whole worldjust stops.
But it doesn't.
Caring for someone living
(04:34):
with dementia, is challengingenough on its own.
But you still have to look after yourself.
Your home, your family.
It can also mean doing caring work on top
of your job or your career.
G'day. I'm Hamish Macdonald.
- And I'm Jim Rogers.
This is Hold the Moment, apodcast from Dementia Australia
(04:54):
by people living withdementia and their families.
Hamish, you know all about juggling
and balancing full-time work,caring responsibilities,
and your crazy schedule.What was it like for you?
- Being honest, it waspretty tough I think Jim.
And, I suppose the other partabout working in the media is
(05:16):
that when you're on TV orradio, it's kind of showtime.
You've got to deliver, andwhatever's going on at home
or in the back of your mind,has to be put to the side.
And, I think particularlyin the early stages
of dad's diagnosis and then you know,
his eventualjourney through dementia.
That was hard to do at times.
You know, I'd be getting callsfrom the nursing home when I
was on the desk ready togo on air at The Project.
(05:39):
Towards the end, dadbecame a bit disorientated.
Sometimes he could usethe phone, sometimes not.
And I'd get phone calls from him while I
was on air hosting. (- Oh my goodness)
- And it was really hard to take because
you were immediatelydrawn away from the
role that you were doing.
I was pleased that hewas reaching out to me
or that carers were reaching out to me.
(05:59):
But I did stress and worry a lot
that I couldn't give it the attention
that I really wanted to.
You know, I'd be sendingfrantic messages in the middle
of interviews with politiciansabout, (- Oh my goodness)
You know, national politics saying,
"I can't talk right now, but
I'll call you back in 10 minutes."
"Can you just let me knowif dad is all right?"
- That would have beenhard and so distracting.
- Yeah, a lot of pressure.
But, I guess in the end I had to trust
(06:23):
that the other supportsthat I had put in place
for him were good and werereliable and that he was safe.
And I think that's something to remember.
You can never do everything.
It's about making surethat the systems are there,
the supports are there, sothat if there's a moment
and there will be, where you can't step in
or step up, that that person will be okay.
(06:48):
- Workplaces can be veryflexible when it comes
to raising children or lookingat other chronic diseases,
but they don't necessarilyhave processes in place
that extend to supportingsomebody who might be caring
for someone living with dementia.
- Kaele Stokes is the ExecutiveDirector of Services,
Advocacy and Researchat Dementia Australia.
(07:10):
She's worked with countlessfamilies, so she knows
how tough it is for new carers.
- You might end up playingthe role of educator
for your workplace arounddementia and what the
caring responsibilities might look like.
And also how they might change over time.
So, having upfrontconversations with your
workplace and reminding themof their obligations under
(07:34):
disability legislation,et cetera, that if,
somebody is living with dementia,
it is classed as a a disability.
And so understanding thatthere needs to be supports
to empower a family carer tocontinue their caring role,
as well as working can be important.
- But it sort of feelsa bit weird, I found.
(07:54):
Trying to talk toyour employer about this,
because it didn't feel totally justified.
Certainly in my mind anyway.
You know, my dad was diagnosed.
We'd moved him into residential care,
so it wasn't like he waswithout care or support.
But, I was trying to give himroutine in and around that.
(08:15):
And yeah, it really kind of fell on
deaf ears in my workplace.
What's the obligation of the employer?
- Well, I mean, I think itdepends on the individual
employer and how they respond to situation
and the level of flexibilitythat they are willing
to provide.
And it can be difficult, right?
(08:35):
Because caring responsibilities
can change quitesignificantly or suddenly.
- And so are there certain obligations
though on the employer?
- Well, it depends on whatlegislation is determining the,
the workplace, whetherthere are particular
regulations that are enforced.
But, ultimately workplacesdo have an obligation
(08:57):
to support their workers
and look at how they can supportflexible work arrangements
where it is practicableand possible to do.
So, having those conversationsas early as possible
and as, as openly as possibleis, is really important.
- What steps can you considerif your employer isn't all
that supportive or friendly about it?
(09:19):
- Well, often what wehear from family carers is
that they will leave orchange their employment.
And that is sometimeseasier said than done.
But also getting legal advicewhere there are particular
clear breaches of, of legislation
or it's pressing up againstthose legislative requirements,
can be helpful.
(09:40):
But, ideally, you don'twant to get to that point.
You want to have conversationsas early as possible.
And certainly the conversationswe've had with families
and carers and actually withpeople living with dementia
as well, demonstrate
that most employers are looking at ways
that they can supportsomebody in their caring role.
It's often that they just don'tunderstand what's required
(10:04):
to support somebody living with dementia.
They sort of tend to think of it
as many people in the communitydo that, oh, you know,
they're not able to make anydecisions for themselves.
They require full-time care.
And that's a very simplisticview of supporting someone.
- So some people, as youmentioned, do end up leaving work
or find themselves havingto take time out in order
to provide care.
(10:25):
Are there government payments supports
that you can get access to?
- Certainly carer supportpayments are in place.
Again, they can be, you know, challenging
to translate into yourindividual circumstances
and know who to talk to, but,
talking to an independent organisation
like Dementia Australia can
help in terms of understandingwhere you can go for help.
(10:47):
- What about a sort of longer term plan?
Because I guess inretrospect I think, well,
Why didn't I sit down
and talk to my bosses aboutwhat dad was going through
and how this might evolve?
And how initially it may only be here
and there, that I need to be around,
but that actually over timethings are going to look
different, and my contribution may change.
(11:10):
Is that something you can do?
Is it reasonable to approach it that way?
- It is absolutely reasonable. Yeah.
And I think it, it doesstart to negate some
of those more awkwardconversations down the track
where things happen in a hurry
because you're trying to upskill
and educate your employerwhilst you're also learning
this stuff for yourself,which can be really hard.
(11:30):
- What about though, if youdon't know that's what's coming?
Because I guess that's, youknow, that's the, the benefit
of hindsight is you sort of think about
how could I have done this differently?
I'm conscious that formany people listening,
maybe they're at the start of a journey
and you know, the horizon is not obvious.
- It isn't obvious.
We do have quite a few post diagnostic
(11:51):
support programmes that are for families
and individuals as well asgroups to work through some of
that, because it is a bigmystery for a lot of people.
Or you know, there's asort of sense of diagnosis
and then nothing else after that.
So, understanding what sortof changes might occur over
(12:12):
trajectory of dementia.Understanding that it is
very much dependent on the individual.
The type of dementia that they have.
The sort of person that they are.
How the dementia affectstheir particular brain.
All of those things arevery much individual.
But, some of the challenges that
that people will experiencewill be pretty consistent.
You know, workplacesgenerally are pretty flexible
(12:34):
for other health conditions.
Cancer diagnoses.
Children. Caring for, for kids.
So it's, it's importantthat they are understanding
and thinking aboutdementia in the same way.
- It's such a common experiencefor people to handle caring
for somebody and working.
(12:56):
I recently met Wendy
and she was caring forboth of her parents.
Her dad is diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
And has been in residentialcare for seven years.
While her mom lives with amild cognitive impairment
and has recently movedinto residential care too.
Wendy's also a mother and a grandmother
(13:17):
and someone who really loves her work.
So she never wanted togive it up completely.
And when her parents needed her help,
she wasn't entirely alone.
She and her brother divide and conquer,
when it comes to caring.
- I tend to do the on-the-ground stuff.
And he tends to do the stuffthat can be done remotely.
(13:39):
So, in the beginning thatmight look like me driving mum
and dad somewhere to attendan appointment or something.
And he might be using aproduct to, we use TeamViewer
to look into mum and dad's computer
when they need a little bit of assistance.
And that's been fantastic.
(14:02):
He came up with a greatidea of having video calls
with them on a weekly basis.
So we would video call withdad on a Monday, beginning
of his week, and wewould have a lovely chat.
But we'd also becomeaware of particular things
that we needed to help withor were on the horizon.
And then we would have acall with mum on a Wednesday
(14:24):
because that was halfway through the week.
And then we could tap into,well, had things progressed?
What did we need to do tosupport her, et cetera.
And then outside those video calls,
you've also got pre sometimes
and posts sometimes to makesure things go smoothly.
(14:44):
- So Jim, what does Wendyactually do for work?
- She's working for anonprofit as an accountant
and she loves her work.
And she mentioned it to me a few times,
but since she startedcaring for her parents,
she's gone from full-time to part-time
and that's allowed herto have a little bit
more flexibility.
- It actually means thatI can do the self-care
(15:06):
that allows me to be a carer
and allows me to enjoy my career.
So, if you are trying tojuggle things too much,
you just can't do it all.
So by structuring yourweek, by working part-time,
you can actually allow yourselfthe space to do the things
that you know you wantto do and you need to do.
(15:27):
What's tended to happen overthe last few years is sort
of an adaptation from when I was a mum
and I was workingpart-time for caring roles
and I had a sick child.
And I've applied some ofthat as things have changed.
And I apply it now.
So, I think one of theshaping is just coming
(15:49):
to terms at some point with the fact
that nobody can have it all.
I was brought up in thegeneration where we left school
and girls were told you cando everything you want to do.
And that simply is not possible,
unless you get incredibly lucky
with a support system behind it.
So I think each familyunit makes decisions.
(16:09):
And so it's not just me making a decision,
it's my husband making a decision about
how we think our familyunit can meet the things
that we think are important in our lives.
That then comes backto, well, it's important
that I do have a role where Iget professional stimulation
and it's also important that I have a role
where I can care for mum and dad.
(16:31):
And especially as beingan immigrant family
where I don't have anextended family network.
I am the only one on the ground.
- How much of your worklife and the job that you do
and the hours that you work, how much of
that actually shapes your roleas a carer for your parents?
- I've picked a careerwhere you have deadlines.
(16:53):
- Yeah.- And you're caring. You have
deadlines too, and they clash.
So one thing I've done,
there was an unrelatedrequest from my employer,
"Could I work Monday mornings?"
And that was fantastic
because at first I thought,Oh gosh, do I want to do that?
And I thought, you knowwhat? It's actually
going to solve my problem.
And it also takes the pressureoff the entire scenario
(17:14):
of a medical appointmentbecause you're not
in the appointmentthinking, I need this to
finish in 20 minutes becauseI've got to get back to work.
So you can actually be inthe moment with mum or dad
or both, and the specialist.
Or you can be in the moment in the queue
to Centrelink on hold for 40 minutes
because you're not thinking,"Oh my God, I need to go back."
(17:35):
- Absolutely. It sounds asthough organisation is the name
of the game, and you've got so many hats
that you are putting on
and choosing which you wantto prioritise, basically.
- It's organisation,
but it's also creating a scenario
where you've given yourselfflexibility.
When you have, forexample, you have to solve
a problem with Services Australia.
(17:56):
And it has to be solved by next Wednesday.
And you also have a board reportthat has to be done by Tuesday.
Or the government wants the BAS return
by the 21st of the month.
Spreading your work life over for
that week gives you theoptions to have a bit of a,
I don't know, on onelevel it's a Gantt chart,
but that sounds very fancy.
(18:17):
It's just sort of these overlapping
things that need to be done.
- Yeah, I think it's importantas well to remember with
that 'to-do' list, as you tickthem off, it's an achievement.
Each thing is tick, tick, tick, done.
You're getting somewhere.
Because it is overwhelmingfor anybody caring.
- That is a very, very important point.
Because you wake up in themorning thinking you're going
to do a BAS or a this or a that at work
(18:40):
and in your caring role.
And it's really important to take a moment
of reflection maybe during theday, at the end of the day.
Because you may have thoughtyou were going to do A, B, C, D.
And you may have ended up doing M, S, Z.
And you need to acknowledge to yourself
that you did accomplish a lot.
It just wasn't what youthought you were going
to do when you woke up that morning.
(19:02):
And so it reframes it interms of feeling devastated
that you know, you can't do this
and you're not coping, togoing, well actually I was on
that phone call and I discovered I needed
to do this extra activity andI decided it was important.
So the thing over there hadto go. I have achieved a lot.
- How'd you deal with it when it all seems
to collide, sometimes?
(19:23):
- You just need to accept that
that particular situation is as it is.
For example,
you just have to acceptthat the 1800 number
for Services Australia,just does not give you an
option to stay on the line.
You can't get angry about it.
You just have to go, 'Okay.'
If it's just said "Allour offices are busy,
ring back another time."
(19:44):
- Yes, that's true.
- Just have to go, "That's what it is."
So let's think about a different strategy.
And I think that's more, maybeyou lean into professional
strategies too and you go, okay,
well if the computer suddenly failed
and your BAS was due, you justhave to think up a strategy.
You can't cry becausethat's not going to fix...
You've got to find a differentway to do something.
- I always say to mykids, you know, it's not about
(20:05):
what what comes at you,it's, it's how you handle it.
So really that is thestructure. (- Breathe)
You've just got to reallybreathe and take that on board.
Tell me about volunteeringat your dad's care home.
How did that come about?
- It came about becausedad was reluctant to go
(20:27):
and do some exercise.
And it was partly afunction of him forgetting
that he wanted to do it.
And it was partly a functionthat it wasn't something
that he was naturally attracted to.
As an IT professional,he spent many, many hours
at his desk doing some incredible things.
And he's producedsome terrific products
for large corporations.
(20:47):
And so it's in his nature to sit there.
And we needed him to genuinelywant to keep his muscles
and the blood flow to hisbrain and everything going.
- Which is so important.
- Yeah, to play to his strengths.
Whilst some things are disappearing.
To keep those things we cankeep for as long as possible.
And so, I was asked if Iwould entertain the idea
(21:10):
of helping with an exercisegroup at dad's care location
because if I went along there
and dad wanted to spend time with me,
he was more likely to goalong too. (-Very smart)
That is, and that isin fact what happened.
It was a bit difficult.
Dad also has a conditioncalled 'Hyperacusis'.
And that is the opposite ofdeafness, I guess you'd say.
(21:32):
So things are very loud.
And, funnily enough
that actually prevented usunderstanding dementia was
playing a role in dad's life at first.
Because when you want torecoil from noises, you tend
to socialise less
and you tend to promote theability to have a problem.
That has swapped out that role now
(21:53):
to a discussion group role.
And that has been really wonderful.
The discussion group for dad.
We talk about all sorts
of things and he really enjoys that.
- So what keeps you motivated as a carer?
- I look back at one particularinstance as an example.
I was unlucky enough to havethe entire lovely experience
(22:14):
of 'chemo' years ago,
and dad, who doesn't reallydo the whole vomiting thing,
accompanied me for an entire day into the
hospital and sat with me.
Every time I think that it'stoo much doing what I'm doing,
I go, you know what? Hehung in there. (laughing)
I'm going to hang in here too.
- Tell me about the financialtoll of a part-time job
(22:35):
and what does that meanfor your retirement?
- It means currentlyputting as many dollars
as I can into 'risk' to catch up my Super.
It's interesting. Society thinks it's not
gendered, but it is. It's still gendered.
And conditions have got a lot better
for women, but there isstill this underlying problem
with women having missedout on Super of my age
(22:57):
and now trying to catch up.
There's the additional issue of
how do you choose a rolein your professional life
that allows you to get the balance right?
And that sometimes meanschoosing between something
that sounds absolutelyfascinating and difficult
and challenging,
but not falling into a trap offinding something that's dull
(23:18):
and boring and not stimulating.
Because if the entireidea of going to work is
to actually get some joy outof it and some personal growth
and do some interesting things.
By swapping out of a role
and going into something
that you can clock off at aparticular minute, you have
to be very, very careful
that you don't end up notliking your work at all.
(23:41):
And so, one of the thingsI've been lucky enough
to do, is finding myselfin roles where some
of the work I do is moreprocedural, producing some
of those reports, butthen projects come along.
So I think it's really importantto, when you're looking
at how you're going to need tochange your work, to make sure
that whatever role you takeon has a capacity there
(24:03):
for interesting and exciting.
It may come and go, that'squite good sometimes.
So for example, at the moment,I've got a really awesome
challenge that I've been asked to do.
And I know for the next little while that
that's going to give me ahuge amount of stimulation
that I might not have got in arole had I continued on my
particular career trajectory.
But I also know that it comes
(24:26):
to an end at some point.
We all need a project
that we know we areactually going to finish.
- Yes.- And that is not dementia.
Because the project ofdementia, if I can call it
that crudely, is one that evolves
and probably grows bigger at the moment.
- And you also have to beflexible to move with it
and keep seeing the different changes
(24:48):
and adapting your busylife, your work, (- Yeah)
everything to that.
- And I like that idea becausethat's then what you do
with your career and yougo, okay, I'm thinking
that in the next yearthis is going to happen.
So therefore, in this part ofmy, other part of my world,
I'm going to make some sort ofsituation where I can adapt it.
So, for example,
Some weeks I will work morehours than other weeks.
(25:09):
And, you also have to be verycareful about not getting ahead
of the game, because you canget all enthusiastic about
something, whicheverpart of your life it is.
And you've just got to go,hang on a second, let's,
let's see what we can do with this.
Sick leave is a very interesting thing.
Because if you're a full-timeworker, I would dare to say
that if you need to go to anappointment, it's understood
(25:33):
that you need to go to an appointment,
and you take carers leave or sick leave.
- Yeah.- As a part-time person,
that's much more tricky sometimes.
- It's accepted that it'sin your own time, basically.
- It is. And that's areally, really difficult one.
It makes it difficultbecause then I'm trying
to have sick leave todo those various roles
and do it in that space thatyou said that's like, well,
(25:54):
you don't work Monday afternoon.
So it's that. But if thespecialist rings you up
and says, I can't do Monday
afternoon, I've got to do some other time
- You're in trouble.
- Then, then what do I do?
And that's where it really comes down to
having a really excellent relationship
with the people you work for
and them knowing thatyou do opt out sometimes
to do those things.
But then you will juggleit at a different time.
(26:16):
And I think and hopethat's where we've landed.
And it's that trust.The trust (- Absolutely)
between employee and employer.
- It sounds as though you've got a lot
on your plate, but you are nailing it.
It's such pleasure to meet you and
I'm in awe of
how brilliantly you'rehandling everything.
- No, not brilliantly.
And I think that's one of thethings we need to recognise
(26:38):
that we all as carers orpeople living with dementia,
Or whoever we are, we all have apublic face and a private face.
And we're all very keen whenpeople say, "How are you going?"
We're all very keen to say, "Oh fine."
- But we know we're not.
- Yeah.- We're all like swans.
- We are. That's such a good analogy.
Because we do what we can do
and then we just have tohave a healthy ability
(26:59):
to just laugh at the rubbishthat we can't deal with.
- Definitely.
- And justgo, it is just rubbish.
Going back to awesome cultureat work, we have a programme
where employees are encouraged to look
(27:21):
after their mental healthand their physical health.
And so yesterday in themiddle of my workday,
I logged off the computer andI did half an hour of yoga.
It's fantastic initiative of our company
and it pays massivedividends for all of us.
Whether it be me with the dementia impact
or whether it be anybodyelse with whatever.
(27:46):
So I'm truly gratefulfor some of the things
that are going on in ourbusiness culture, and I hope,
and I wish that other people will find
themselves in that same situation.
Because I know it's very, verytough for some other people.
(28:14):
- Thanks again to Wendy forsharing her story with us.
There's so much good advice in there.
And I just love Wendy'sattitude towards everything.
She doesn't sugarcoat anything,
but she doesn't let setbacksbring her down either.
- Now, if you can relate to Wendy
and you'd like a bit ofhelp balancing your own work
with your caring responsibilities,
we've got a bonus episode for you.
(28:36):
You'll hear from Kristen
who works on the DementiaAustralia helpline.
- Kristen's great.
And she gives reallyuseful practical tips on
all things caring.
- You can find that bonus episode on the
Dementia Australia website
or in your podcast app right now.
And if you want to go even deeper, you can
call the helpline yourself.
It's available 24/7 every day of the year.
(28:58):
- The number is 1800 100 500.
Hold the Moment is a podcastfrom Dementia Australia
produced by Deadset Studios.
You can find more episodes
and resources on DementiaAustralia's website
(29:18):
dementia.org.au.
The show is hosted by me, Jim Rogers.
- And by me, Hamish Macdonald.
The executive producers areKellie Riordan and Gia Moylan.
The producers are Madeleine Hawcroft
and Liam Riordan.
Production Manager is Ann Chesterman.
Sound designed by Ryan Pemberton.
A special thanks to the wholeteam at Dementia Australia
(29:40):
and to everyone who sharedtheir stories on this podcast.
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