August 15, 2024 • 49 mins
Take a journey into the world of book marketing as hosts Julie Satow and Alice Robb speak with Anne Jaconette, a senior marketing manager at Doubleday Books. With nearly a decade of experience, Anne shares her expertise in developing ad campaigns, social media strategies, and partnerships for a wide range of nonfiction books. We talk about the difference between publicity and marketing, what sorts of book marketing are working these days, and what authors can do to help promote their work.
Anne has worked with writers including David Grann, Colson Whitehead, and Patrick Radden Keefe. She shares insights into how she tailors ads and messaging for authors, what sorts of pitches and partnerships she finds most effective, and best practices for the all-important social media roll-out. Before joining Doubleday Books, Anne was a title marketer at Galley Books, an imprint of Simon & Schuster, and Abrams Books.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Music.
(00:05):
How Books Work, Real Talk with editors, agents, and publishing insiders.
Hosted by writers Julie Seitao and Alice Robb.
Anne Jaconet is a senior marketing manager at Doubleday Books with nearly a
decade of experience in book publishing.
As a title marketer, she develops ad campaigns, pitches, partnerships,
(00:28):
and provides social media strategy and content for a wide range of books.
Prior to working at Doubleday, she was a title marketer at Gallery Books,
an imprint of Simon & Schuster and Abrams Books.
Today, she specializes in nonfiction, working with bestselling authors including
David Graham, Colson Whitehead, Patrick Radden Keefe and Susan Casey.
(00:51):
Anne, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to talk about title marketing because I think it's the most fun
job in all of publishing. And I had the delight to work with Julie on your book.
So, yeah, I'm excited to dive in.
Yeah. So do you want to explain what is title marketing for us authors?
(01:13):
Yeah, absolutely. So basically, a title marketer is the person who's kind of,
honestly, kind of like a project manager for all things marketing.
And the way I kind of like to divide marketing and publicity in my mind is publicities,
anything that's unpaid, the
reviews that you're getting for free or that someone's pitching for you.
(01:33):
We're not paying for our marketing, anything that is supported with advertising dollars.
And there's some overlap for sure, especially with things like newsletters and podcasts.
And marketing will also encompass everything social media.
So I'll end up spending, honestly, too much time online and on Instagram and
TikTok and just ruining the algorithm for my wonderful job, which is mostly on nonfiction books.
(02:00):
Yeah. So I guess I just wanted to ask, there's so much happening right now in marketing.
Obviously, it's changing every minute.
Maybe you could talk about, I mean, my experience with you is very robust and
quite different from what I had when I published my first book in 2019,
when I don't even know if I really met the marketing person.
(02:21):
So is that typical with just Doubleday or Penguin Random House that you would
have your dedicated own marketing person like that? Yeah, I would say it's pretty
typical of any major publisher that you would get a dedicated marketer.
Marketing is an interesting thing because the books will come to me when they're already finished.
Usually, they'll have a finished manuscript. And the editorial team will pitch
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them internally first to marketers and publicists. And I put in my bids for what I want to work on.
And every book gets a marketer. I take most of our nonfiction titles.
My colleagues tend to work on more of the fiction books.
Although fiction is its own muscle. So I always like to work on one every so often.
So yeah, the authors are coming to me usually when the bulk of their writing is done.
(03:10):
Maybe... I think, Julie, we probably first connected when we're maybe doing
final tweaks on your final pass or just line changes.
And the way I like to start thinking about my marketing campaigns is building
an audience because every book, you know, you have to, there's sort of an obvious
audience that comes to mind.
(03:31):
And then I like to think of kind of a reach audience. And with nonfiction,
I think it's so much more unique and interesting because you can find people
outside of just this literary circle.
You know, we're thinking about like, okay, who's interested in like fashion
and history or who's interested in feminist history, who's interested in ballet.
And so that's when I start to develop an audience. And then once we have galleys,
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we really do that early awareness.
And one thing that I always like to keep in mind for marketing is a spend doesn't
necessarily or almost never dictates how a book will do.
You can put all the money in the world behind a book. But if you don't have
the awareness and the word of mouth, it's so hard.
So that's why we put so much energy into getting early reads.
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And there's kind of this horrible, I'm sure it's like mind blowing,
hurry up and wait process for authors where you're like, I'm not hearing any feedback.
And it's because we're waiting to hear from readers and salespeople and all
those like first people who get the galleys and the e-galleys of the book to
sort of get a sense of who our audience is.
Is it who we think it is? Does it line up with the audience that we kind of selected?
(04:38):
And also what sort of key points are jumping out to them as a reader?
So, you know, when I read an author's book, I'll have my own idea about like
what sticks out the most to me.
But, you know, I end up working on a lot of what I call dad books, which I love.
But, you know, books you buy your dad for Father's Day. I might be the preeminent
like shipwreck marketer in Philadelphia.
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So I know what sticks out to me. But, you know, it's a little bit outside my audience.
And so I want to be sure I'm reading reader reviews on Goodreads for our bookstagrammers
who we know and work with and trust and get a sense of what's really sticking
out to them in the story and what makes this look different and really sellable.
And then that kind of takes us through the early awareness phase.
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And then a lot of marketing comes to life so much closer to publication,
which I know can be so frustrating. reading.
But that's when we kind of develop an advertising campaign, if your book has
that, and kind of hit upon our key messaging.
And we've firmed up our audience. We know what the key selling points are.
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And here's how we intend to introduce your book to the world.
So does that kind of make sense in the run-up to publication, at least?
Yeah. So just thinking about it from the authors, because I feel like that's
mostly new to me. Like, I feel like authors are super involved in the publicity.
But like, what can authors do during that state, during everything you just
(06:12):
described to kind of, is there anything or is it just kind of out of our hands?
No, that's a great question. I think there are a lot of things you can do.
I would say in, I mean, some of it depends.
You have, like, if you've written a book before, you can look at the people
who are key supporters of your first book and say like, hey,
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here's a list of people I want to get galleys to.
It's also a great time you know as an author
you're thinking about your book more than anyone else uh you're closest
to more so you're probably in
contact with more people who you think are your ideal
reader so it's always helpful for me when authors or agents and editors send
along people that they find online they're like oh we think this person would
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be a perfect we call them big mouths for books for a finished copy or an early
copy and that can be really useful and then when When we get closer to publication,
you know, I don't think every author necessarily needs to have a social media
platform, especially if it's something they're not interested in.
But if it is something that they already have and want to maintain beyond book
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publication, definitely, definitely commit some time and resources to,
you know, one or two platforms that you can dedicate time to.
Don't be on TikTok if you don't want to be on TikTok.
Like TikTok's great, TikTok's wonderful, but like your publisher's probably on TikTok.
And if you're not in the habit of scrolling and like familiarizing yourself
with the content, it's just gonna be like more work that's not that fun and
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not that engaging for readers.
Cause the audience is pretty sophisticated into what, like readers know what feels.
A little bit self-prolowy and what does it. And so if your audience is on Facebook
and like, that's where they interact and that's where they're finding their
books and they're kind of a book-loving audience, that's perfect.
(08:05):
Just leverage that as much as possible.
Yeah, it's interesting. I remember one of the things you mentioned to me was
that like the marketing department was finding that it was really much more like a bottom-up kind
of thing that seems to be working in terms of selling books rather than maybe top down.
(08:25):
So rather than like a review selling a book, it's more like the word of mouth
from the social media stuff.
I think I think that's what you meant. Maybe you could expand on that and like
explain what's kind of working right now in the market.
Totally. Yeah, word of mouth is what Zali's book.
So for all the authors out there, early reads really do matter.
If it feels like we're giving away a lot of copies of your galleys or e-galleys.
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That is why it's because we want, by the time a reader sees your book in their
local independent bookstore, they know like, oh, my friend read this.
Like, oh, I've seen this online.
And the other thing that really works in marketing for better and worse that
I'm seeing right now is to make things feel as personal as things.
So when I'm reaching out to bookstagrammers or potential readers,
(09:12):
I want them to know that like, I understand their tastes. Like I'm reaching
out to someone and pitching them a book that is entirely up their alley.
So one thing that authors can also do is do some of that outreach and DM people on their own.
Also because, not just because your marketer's too busy too,
but also because it's harder to ignore an author than it is to ignore a publisher.
(09:35):
Just a random DM from a corporate entity is a little bit...
A little bit easier to like mark as read and
ignore whereas an author reaching out to someone who's
reading books in the same marketplace is is much
more enticing and feels much more so i always try to do make like figure out
what i can do to make the run of book smart thing feel personal and feel so
(09:58):
just thinking and feel really tailored to uh i feel like the audience and the
reader mostly new to me like i feel like authors are super involved yeah i guess Yes.
Another question I had was, you know, we often hear as authors that it's sort of baked in already.
Like if there's going to be a big book, you know, that the publisher puts a
lot of heft behind something and you can kind of feel, you know,
(10:20):
are you going to be like a mid list or whatever?
Or like, are they going to actually like put some is it is it's totally baked in?
Or do you think there's some like flexibility from the publisher side where
if they are seeing some traction that surprises them, maybe they will throw
more money behind it? or, I don't know, or just change how they're thinking
or what happens behind the scenes with all of that?
(10:40):
Yeah, it's a good question. In some ways, it is a little bit open.
Like by the time I get your book pitched to me, they're probably still deciding your idea.
Or by the time I get my titles assigned to me, probably deciding the print run.
Usually the budget is kind of assigned to a title marketer.
But that said, if the book hasn't been read enough now or early,
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early, if we get a ton of feedback from the sales team where they're like, oh,
this is that seems like this could be really big or if a publicity plan is,
you know, an author has huge hits coming up, that's something that we're especially
if it's that we'll put a lot more on our radar and say, like,
hey, we should put a little money behind this.
And then the other thing that's such a big part of our job behind the C-Commit
(11:25):
is our thing in publicity,
just communicating with the sales team and saying like, here's the rest of the
time, sir, or more and more often, like, here are things that our three firms,
but that we think will happen.
So much is happening, so much is happening, which is really hard.
But people are pre-ordering less and less.
So if an author does do a pre-order campaign, I recommend running it much closer
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to on sale, just because it's more time to build those reader reviews. use.
And your average reader isn't necessarily a big pre-orderer.
You know, when I think about me and my friends who are buying books,
like there are multiple books a month, which, oh God, we spend too much money on books.
(12:10):
I maybe pre-order a couple books a year and, you know, I'm in the industry.
So I think it's more and more rare for people to pre-order
anecdotally so if there is an app
campaign we're recommending it like
right before on sale but yeah so some stuff is baked
in but i do think that if there's a lot of support
(12:32):
if there are really strong reviews things can shift around and likewise they
can shift down too totally you know if we're or is what's not even shift down
but if we're seeing in reader reviews views that like oh we've been marketing
this book as like fine thriller but people are really.
Gravitatingly more to the literary aspect of it and
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like the character descriptions and people who
are going in doing this as a thriller are going to be let down so
people who go in different expectations are going to
probably enjoy it a lot and the other thing that's so some of this picked in
but i think there's always room for to like to refine and find your audience
because just because a book isn't getting the right traction doesn't mean that
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it's not the right fit for someone. I think it means we need to save a book.
To refine our audience and our message, really. So, one thing that I think that
some of that outreach I guess that's a little disheartening with the pre-order thing just because.
For, you know, to try to make the list, obviously, the bestseller list or any
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list, it's usually like the pre-orders and the things that really help, right?
So, I guess that unless the total number comes down as a result of that or I
don't know, like if the whole, you know, level sinks down but otherwise that
doesn't make it harder. It does.
I don't know.
I guess I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily because it means that people
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are just and feel more likely to gravitate to a book after it's on sale, which is great news.
Like we've seen books rise up on TikTok after being out for years and years.
You know, I think Taylor Jenkins, she hadn't been an author for many, many years.
She only recently got a huge seller status many years after the fact.
(14:25):
So I think that can be disheartening in some ways, but it does just mean that
readers are discovering things in different ways.
Yeah, and pre-orders are kind of a numbers one,
so I will watch this and Julie knows I'll also share them widely in some ways,
(14:46):
but but they're not they're not but they
can be really effective and so and so it's
such a it's such a tricky balance and deciding
the front and the other thing to keep in mind for is that you're a brand name
author if you're a dating author that they don't know what to explain and that's
(15:11):
that's not a bad sign that doesn't mean your book's going to be a failure.
It just means that shit's coming up. Like it means awareness is your long play.
So yeah, there are different sides to marketing. Some are very measurable and
need sales and pre-orders.
And then we do as an awareness play and we're trying to build an author and
keep their platform for the long haul and make sure of them like backlist.
(15:34):
Because that really is where a publisher gets money is backlist sales.
So obviously, we want to set up the book for success upfront. front.
But we also want it to be, you know, when people think about,
like, oh, I'm buying a book on reordering London deep sea.
Susan Gacy is, like, the woman who I rate for deep sea exploration.
And even if that book's a year old, I still know that, like,
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that is the resource I want.
Just because it's more tied to those three reviews. And so when a book does
kind of, like, bubble up on TikTok years after publication.
Does that tend to be, I mean, the publisher is
not investing staying in the backlist in
that way so is that just like random luck like
which is our authors pitching book talkers
(16:17):
years later like how does that do you guys know how that comes about yeah and
if it's happening years down the line it usually is more and more support and
hopefully we like to think as marketers it means we've set that up really well
it's lived on someone's shelf and we've gotten it it's the right way we're out
of sale on the front end of course i'll try to
TikTokers and I would say you have a non-fiction author, at least you don't
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have TikTok, you can maybe borrow a friend's phone that has TikTok and search
down hashtags related to your readout and see who comes up.
And the challenge with non-fiction reader that I think is really fun is finding
someone who's invested in the category, but who's also in the reader.
So you want to really find that overlap.
But yeah, it's a little bit of luck and a little bit of magic and a lot People
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who are going to the book as much as possible with an audience that we've set
up are going to probably enjoy it a lot more.
So do you ever do like a marketing campaign down the line, like either when
a paperback comes out or or even just, you know, holiday or whatever,
like, you know, the attention you get when you book first comes out is like one thing.
(17:26):
But then it feels like you kind of you know what I mean? Like it sort of filters
out over time and then that's that.
So I just wondering. Yeah, totally.
Great question. yeah we you know campaigns ideally every
also has a title and in a perfect world that title is the same one or any list
(17:46):
it's usually like orders and the things that really help right so we do have
at your H&S half double day we do have a total number comes down as a way,
you don't know like if the whole key priority sinks down.
Doesn't that make it harder our marketing director will say like yes we've seen
these books bubble up on tiktok I don't know.
(18:06):
I guess I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily because it means that Peach
OI and Doubleday was when women were lagging.
And that book just continues to wait and be looked for by sellers.
And so we just keep putting advertising courses behind it. And it's not a huge spend.
But it's still a huge... She had this been an offer for many years.
(18:27):
We know that the audience is there.
And this years after the fact. So I think that it can be disheartening in some
ways. Is there anything that we should be doing from a marketing perspective
after that initial big push in terms of that?
I mean, you know, for those of us that might not be like a consistent as,
(18:51):
you know, like a way to kind of lean, I don't know, like what is it that we
should be thinking about just kind of as our career is going when we're working
on the next book or whatever,
you were doing so you know yeah i would it's
such a balance so if you have a platform and
another thing to keep in mind for crew use it and use it in a
way that feels your differentness with you like you're a
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brand name other verse if you're a dandy first of all because so that establishes
you as something that you don't know what is going to affect an extra and also
because it builds really really by other authors so it makes sense to be along
the line when your new book comes out like so yeah they're sharing their different types of things.
Sales as you can see uh so that's
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one thing and and we're trying to you know you can always ask your
publisher you can run a giveaway um and make sure because that's a pretty uh
that really is where they help us easy enough that they'll gain so obviously
gain some visibility and then the other thing to keep in mind is how am i we
also want to be you know when people one thing think about like is there anything else i can be doing.
(20:05):
So, yes, if your family and friends are keen to leave reviews on Amazon,
that actually does help.
Does that tend to be, I mean, to be screaming at the publisher is not investing
in the back of some 50 Amazon reviews.
That's like a really great place to be.
Is it our authors pitching? Is that what you said? Booked up years later.
(20:26):
Like, how does that, did you guys know how that comes from?
Yeah. you know that continues down the line it
usually is good reviews and amazon reviews i
think it's easier
said than done but you can also you can try to like tiktokers and say you're
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at another like i don't want to see you don't have but if you mean like i can
borrow a friend's phone and search my day i wish i used to read it to your book
so thumbs up so yeah and then And then with the other thing,
I think Julie and I talked about this.
I know not every author is doing, but if they want to put resources behind that.
So you want to release your own marketing steps behind your book's campaign.
(21:10):
I would say that's pretty much always best for me, at least right now in 2024.
That's pretty much always best for me on Facebook and Instagram ads.
Can you ever do a marketing campaign?
Which is kind of a boring, it's not always the most exciting thing.
Or even just, you know, holiday or whatever.
Like, you know, the attention we get when you first come out is like one thing,
(21:34):
but then it feels like you kind of, you know what I mean?
Like it sort of transfers out over time and then that's that. So I'm just wondering.
Totally. But we do see like Facebook ads just continue to sell.
Yeah, we think about campaigns, ideally every year, but then the other thing
that can be a title marketer is Amazon ads.
That's a lot more money than the hardcover, but I can remember, you know,
(21:54):
know what amazon does have a lot of power and industry we do
um and then the final thing i would say is if you're
an author let's spend money and they'll kind of this one's a
little bit more self-pubbed or if you're an ebook is
a bus title and that will uh boost your
marketing director will say like we've seen these books what
is that what is that yeah okay a book that i worked
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on when i'm fresh that is kind of uh it was
playing women and that book just continues to be an
indie book and so then it will often do post-publication resources behind it
and it's not a huge deal but it's still and your book will be on sale as some
books you know 299 in one day or any and so you'll see a sale and it's just a
(22:41):
really great way to sell a bunch of copies, get some awareness.
Obviously, you're not selling them at a similar rate, but it's a good way to get a ton of viewers.
As we all know, we're out of this one.
So, I mean, you know, for those of us that might not be like a consistent,
you know, like a way to kind of, I don't know, what is it that we should be thinking about?
(23:05):
You don't hear as much about people kind of designing their own ad campaigns, you know?
So is that like, let's say you're an author and you're like,
I want to spend money on Facebook and Instagram.
I mean, do you then have to go off and like design an ad or is it just like promoting?
I hope people know how to do that. I spend. I establish these views as someone
(23:26):
who is an advert and non-fiction.
They use the flesh. And it works over your product. camaraderie among others
and it makes that just kind of a person who comes out someone's like making
me share my blood i've been such a fan of you most frequently when you want to as you can see um.
(23:51):
Enough i think that also asks the publisher if you're spending your own money,
Julia, I think you asked first public, is there anything else I can be doing?
I'll always come up with something else for an author to do it for.
Your book is set up on a beautiful display. Use that for an enthusiasm.
(24:13):
I mean, can you provide for your family and friends to leave reviews on Amazon?
The other thing that you can do is provide for you Amazon rankings.
If you're getting a number, those can be useful.
When you're surrounding that, if you can get over 50 Amazon reviews,
views that's like things that look are really great to be more like um maybe an influence,
(24:33):
that's a good place to be and hopefully you know what percentage of the authors that you work with.
Don't necessarily read them if you're not sure you know nerves of steel i would
say it's not yours and it's done but you can also you know i would say it's
(24:54):
i work on a your editor like i I don't want to see Goodreads reviews,
but if you would send me like the five-star ones that you think will make my day, please do.
I often hire independent publicists. And then the other thing that I think Julia
and I talked about, I know not everyone is doing, but if they want to put resources on marketing,
(25:15):
especially because behind, you know, a publicity is, I would say that's.
Pretty much the hard thing to look at when you're in at least right
now you're not online 2020 you're pretty much always going
on facebook immediately i can always say no but
instagram ads you have and so that's which is kind of a bummer it's not always
the most exciting thing it's certainly like i also doesn't do you see really
(25:37):
cool and a lot of the other stuff that's happening especially when you see uk
publishers and you're like what i'm doing i got supporters Live piano player
in every Waterstones to promote this.
Relatively, you see, like, Facebook ads just continue to sell those copies.
And then the other thing that can be very beautiful and organic is Amazon ads.
(25:59):
That's a lot more money. It can become a great voice for it.
You know, Amazon does have a lot of power in the industry.
Publicity is, like, prestigious. if you can you know to
like really put an emphasis on like trying to get that excerpt
or trying to get this review you know what i mean and
then marketing it feels so like sales the business
(26:19):
side of it and what is that but like what is that you know the fact of having
to like pay an influencer to like do something about your book feels like you
specifically you know i think a lot of authors have a hard time thinking that
way or don't think that way or feel uncomfortable comfortable with that kind of a notion,
you know what I mean, which I think is to their own detriment in my personal opinion,
(26:43):
but I do think that's like, you know, like a reality.
And it's just a really great way to sell a bunch of copies, get some awareness.
Obviously, you're not selling them at...
The normal price but it's it's a good way to
get a lot of readers oh she went off which as
we all know word of mouth so so yeah that's that's kind of the book club platform
(27:06):
um so yeah that's interesting because i feel like we hear a lot as authors people
talk about like hiring independent publicists but you don't hear as much about
people kind of i do designing their own ad campaigns.
So is that like let's say you're an author and you're like i want to spend money
on facebook Facebook, and Instagram.
Are you just, I mean, do you then have to go off and like design an ad or is it just like promoting?
(27:29):
To get a good critical review. How do people know how to do that?
But it's a lot more like, you know, you're sort of just hoping that you know what will happen.
So it's a lot of extra money to spend and set aside some of your advance to
spend on you know, it feels much more natural to like focus on the publicity.
(27:51):
Also because a lot of non-fiction authors i guess
are journalists and so they'll just i think that
way more whereas the marketing feels like sorted do
you know what i mean to pay an influencer to say
something nice about you feel like you've come up with a couple of assets crazy
to say that you've really run the best um on social media is often i don't know
(28:13):
like all lifestyle photos you know there's also like a couple of interviews
so we know your book set up on a beautiful display with some bookshelves for us.
Hopefully something your publishing team can provide for you.
I'm not using these to work, whereas like the other things that your team's
providing for you, like graphics, and also the other thing I'll always say is
like marketing is the last thing I would try.
(28:35):
I'm just hoping that things that
look more organic or more like maybe I'm going to use my search on this.
I'm going to have to find out how much sugar feels more genuine.
But even though it doesn't necessarily translate to sales. Would you say what
percentage of the authors that you work with have their own publicist or their
own marketer? Yeah, it's harder.
It's interesting, too. Does it translate to sales?
(28:58):
I would say it's just not the majority, certainly the minors.
So I would say in some ways, I feel like such an unfair and stressful answer.
And I always republish my author's end. I would say one, two,
I'm an independent publicist.
Well, you're a publicist, but I'm an independent marketer.
(29:19):
But yeah, we don't see a ton of independent marketers. But I think it's a huge
opportunity there, especially because we're giving them a book that they would read.
Publicity is, so it's a hard thing to book when you're, you know,
you're not buying, you can always have your publishers suffering and company asks.
And yeah, I'm going to say no, but again, you're the one who knows how to add
the book's topic to the list to be effective.
(29:41):
There's one thing that, honestly, your phone's algorithm is already kind of worked.
Really like oh straw and to make a strong case for is
working directly with screenshots and to your marketer because
they are my first book and um and you can
often get them to share your book i know i'll be doing my a real which is my
stories at night you know just price that and really it's gonna be gonna make
(30:04):
something as worse beautiful and manic and custom not much about but and the
writing of the voice like the bones are who is a reader part of the issue is
that like authors think about like publicity is like
prestigious if you can you know to like really put
an emphasis on like trying to get that excerpt or trying
to get this review you know what i mean and then the
(30:25):
marketing it feels sort of like a business side of
it and not like sorted but like maybe a bit more
you know it's certainly not like you know the fact of
having to pay an influencer to like do something about your book it feels like
you know i think a lot of authors have a hard time thinking that way or don't
think that way or feel uncomfortable with that kind of a notion which I think
(30:49):
is to their own detriment in my personal opinion but I do think that's like,
they're doing the job you know like a reality.
So from there I weirdly enough I ended up
planning that comic-con for abrams i was like oh she went off and sort of pop culture books,
(31:11):
and some home and gardening didn't really do too much on a couple of cookbooks
which are always so but okay i think a huge challenge to market and that's for
that no i do think i think it's like a problem for authors like to their own
detriment that they see publicity as you know it is like
prestigious or more prestigious or like career advancing in some ways,
(31:36):
you know, to get a critical review.
But it's a lot more like, you know, you're sort of just hoping there's,
you know, who knows what will happen.
So if authors have extra money to spend or whatever, to set aside some of their
advance to spend on this, you know, it feels much more natural to like focus on the publicity.
(31:58):
Also because a lot of non-fiction authors i guess
are journalists probably or have that you know what i mean so
they think that way more whereas the marketing field.
Like feels sordid you know what.
I mean to pay like an influencer to say.
Something nice about you feel there there's just
familiarity like we
(32:20):
i don't know like i think a lot of non-fiction authors
also like write book review so we kind of get
how to I just think it's a book reviewer
like what might appeal to an editor a magazine
we used to work for whatever whereas like influencers just feel
like unfamiliar I'm fully yeah I'm trying
that's totally fair and also the other thing I'll always say
(32:41):
is like a marketing is the last thing always prioritize publicity together
as well it's your publicist just like
oh would you write an op-ed like prioritize that time wise
10 times out of 10 for sure really you
think because you know it doesn't necessarily translate
to sales as much yeah but if so
it's well sometimes it depends on what your goal is yeah
(33:02):
and it's bizarre it's interesting too because it's does it
translate to sales it it varies and it's
just harder to track in some ways so in
some ways i know that feels like such a unfair stressful answer
small today's a but and i always encourage my authors
to like pass them back to me and have the marketer me
the marketer make the offer to ask if like will you shout
(33:24):
about this person's book please we'll give you money and and
hopefully we're finding somewhere where it's such an obvious fit and
you know nine out of ten times we're giving them a book that they would read
and love any place so so that really is the goal but yeah we can you can always.
Have your publishers that are going to come to be asked even if you're just
(33:45):
again you're the one who knows the book's topics best so you're.
There's a good chance you're, honestly, your phone algorithms already kind of
learned that, like, oh, you're your interest and is serving up people.
And you can, like, screenshot and send to your marketer. I've ruined my phone algorithm forever.
But it's good because I just, you know, I'll be doing my, kind of watching my
(34:07):
stories at night and just screenshot and send it to my work email and be like,
oh, this is going to be good for a sports website. that I know Leon not that much about.
But I know this is the fourth deal sponsor who is a reader also. A talker.
Because maybe I'm- Do you want to talk a little bit about your career and how
you got to this position?
Because it is a little like, yeah, how did that happen?
(34:31):
Yeah, I'm happy to. So I started a mid-sized publisher called Abrams Books,
which makes beautiful, beautiful cookbooks, coffee table books.
If you are looking for like a beautiful
art check the spine i bet you it's abrams and
then sarah was a marketing assistant and then transitioned
(34:52):
to title marketer marketing associate and associates in the publishing industry
harder than anyone across the board and every department because they're doing
the job of an assistant and shouting whatever is about them um so from there
i planned weirdly enough i ended up uh planning that comic-con
for Abrams books for a few years
(35:12):
and worked on a lot of graphic novels and sort of pop culture rebuffs.
And some home and gardening.
Didn't really do too much. Worked on a couple of books, which are always so
fun to read, but I think a huge challenge to work with.
And then from there, I worked at Gallery Books, which is a new print of Simon & Schuster.
And Gallery is best known for celebrity memoirs, probably, and some really wonderful
(35:38):
commercial fiction thrillers.
So there I was a title marketer and was there for a couple of years.
And then I moved on to Double Days, my final form.
So yeah, well, by enlisting
on a lot of wonderful nonfiction books and a few fiction books.
And I really focus on building authors into brands.
(36:00):
And also like, okay, I like nonfiction. I think the challenges of nonfiction
marketing are so different from fiction because it feels,
to me at least, it feels like the fiction marketplace is so flooded and it's
so hard to just choose a book from the shelves because there's just so much. us.
And with nonfiction, I feel like the questions about who the audience is and
(36:22):
discovery opportunities are much more interesting.
And also, I love working with nonfiction authors because I just think you guys
are the smartest, coolest people.
So I say I have the best job in publishing because I get to work on so many
different projects where I'm trying to fully invest in your book,
The Weird World, and immerse myself in like who the audience is,
(36:45):
what the information is, what is appealing to an average reader,
what's appealing to someone who's already studied in this topic.
And then, you know, the book comes out and I get a whole other project.
So it sort of sometimes it feels like I'm putting myself through a very bizarre
college curriculum of Doubleday books.
(37:08):
But yeah, that's how I landed at Doubleday. and been there for a few years.
And yeah, I work on a relatively small team.
Doubleday is a pretty lean imprint, but we work on some pretty incredible work.
And did you always know that marketing was like the part of the publishing industry
(37:30):
that you were most interested in?
Not at all. I landed in marketing. I thought I wanted to like be a designer and design book covers.
I quickly found that marketing was the most fun.
And also, I didn't really have the design skills. I knew just enough to be dangerous.
(37:51):
Just enough to design a quote card for my authors. pop
and like the person and yeah i guess i
kind of knew i wasn't cut out for editorial that's such
a different skill set and it's such a incredible time
like to me editors are kind of the black box like
oh i don't understand that process enjoy but but
(38:12):
i knew that i would be on more of marketing and
or number two or sales because i'm kind of
a talker because maybe be evident
so you want so the sort of secret
of publishing is that we all secretly work for the sales team
um if you're not better
but even though it's exciting do you like um early reviews like do you talk
(38:36):
with the publicist as well like kind of hash out what's going on like are you
guys in constant communications oh yeah okay and the sales team too or no just
more like you and the and the publicist kind of a thing.
Which me and the publicist or the marketer and the publicist and the author
are the kind of core team. But it really is.
So I would say the marketer and the publicist in a perfect world are working together.
(39:01):
I love our publicity team. We're always chatting about the book,
about like what's working, what's not, what's coming down the pipe.
And it's really important for the marketer and publicist to remain in contact
because also that's how, well, first of all, it's how we get great blurbs to
throw all over your ads. And second of all, it's how we know what markets we already have covered.
(39:22):
Like, oh, we already have a decent vanity fair. We can target that.
Or if, I don't know, maybe like, oh, we were expecting something for time. It's not happening.
So let's add time to our targeting here.
Or yeah, sometimes we want to hit it twice where, okay, you have a great review
coming out on this day on the New York Times.
(39:44):
The New York Times ads will follow two weeks later. So those readers have already
seen a review and they know.
So yeah, we're in pretty constant communication with publicity.
And then the sales team, it's a little bit more formal because basically a sales
representative will tell us what the reps need to hear.
And they're like, okay, we're ready for an update on this one.
(40:06):
They're going out into the field and we want the biggest number possible.
We want them to really push these thoughts.
Can you tell us what's happening? And so then we'll kind of gather all the top
line items and make it look, you know, as impressive as you possibly can so
that they can say, like, hey, if you put this book in your store,
it will fly off the shelves.
(40:26):
Really sensible. It's awesome.
But yeah, I would say the other thing, sorry, not to jump in,
but the other thing to keep in mind is there are so,
especially at big publishers, so many more people touch your books than you even know,
like the marketer for your book, but there's, there are designers who are not
(40:47):
just working on the book,
but designers who are designing your ads and, and our ad buying team who like,
I'm coming to them with an ad that they'll say, like, they'll be the ones who
are we're booking it and putting it into place.
So, so yeah, it's a, it's a, a privilege to work with such a big team,
but it certainly can mean that sometimes things move slower also means there
are more resources to go around.
(41:08):
So for the author perspective, like when we're going,
you know, it's always that fraught moment when we have our first big like publicity meeting or say,
you know, with marketing and all of that, like what, what are like three things
or something thing that they should like, we should all keep in mind,
or we should try to, you know, that would be helpful if we're trying to partner
(41:28):
with, you know, marketing.
I think like Alice said, it's a little easier for us from a publicity typically,
because a lot of us come from the media world.
So it's, but the rest of it's more convenient.
Okay. I would say, think about, so I know you've talked to some editors who
have sort of explained like how comps work, at least on the early end.
(41:51):
I would say come to us with comps that
both in the book world and outside of it like if
you're like this is the pop culture audience like the
person who watches mad men will love my book and sometimes we do do individualized
research into books for that but sometimes we don't so if you have like a few
(42:12):
pop culture things to hinge the book to that can be something that's really
great and really selling. So that's thing number one.
I would say thing number two is start to gather names and addresses of your
network of people who you want to share the finished book far and wide.
And I would say thing three is ask how your marketer is getting early reader
(42:37):
support and early reviews.
And there can be a few ways they do that. It can be a Goodreads giveaway Giveaway
or Storygraph is a new website that is also doing giveaways.
It's a similar platform to Goodreads. It's just a little bit newer.
Or it can be NetGalley, which NetGalley is a tool that publicity uses and marketers
will also use to give away a ton of e-galleys.
(42:58):
So I would say those are the things to keep in mind to ask, how are we creating
great word of mouth on the marketing end for my book?
And that's something that will that will hopefully both serve you as an author
and also help your marketer understand what your vision is.
Well that's really helpful i feel like it's interesting also about the comp
(43:20):
using comp titles from the art books because i feel like i've definitely tried to do that at,
pitching editorial stage and try like my book is like black spawn and being told that's not.
That's not an appropriate comp okay that is totally good to know for the editors
(43:40):
but for mark yeah save that count for the marketer because we love to be like
yes black swan absolutely and And even if it's older,
if it's like no longer on air, if it was a huge hit like the last one,
like that, it's that name will still still be really useful.
Because you'll use that to go find influencers who talked about it or have shown
interest. Like that's that's the connection of it.
(44:03):
Totally, totally. Or even just it'll be, you know, I find that the more the
more personal and honestly, a little bit weird.
I make my pitch emails to influencers, the bigger of a response I get.
So if I'm like in the subject line, this book is like black swan for for the
nonfiction girlies like they they'll be like different from like your book is
(44:27):
in the middle. Love Double Down.
Like it's just to make it a little bit. Yeah. Feel feel different than something
that everything everyone else is doing in your inbox.
That's so helpful. It's so great. Is there anything we haven't asked you that
you think we should know? Oh gosh, I don't know. I feel like I touched forever.
(44:49):
No, it's so great. I think, you know, it's like,
The whole point is to try to educate authors so we are more,
you know, we can be more active participants in all of this.
So I feel like it's really helpful.
Yeah, I would say as authors focus on, well, it's such a hard balance for you guys.
(45:10):
I think authors are in such a vulnerable and incredible job that you guys do
because you're putting so much of yourself out into the world.
And then everyone's like, don't read the reviews that promote yourself,
but like, don't be too self-promoting.
So I'm so grateful for any author that shows interest and care in the promotion process.
(45:32):
And I would say, you know, take what you're doing in your real life and what
you're already doing online and connect it to the book.
And hopefully that connection feels organic because it's the book came from
you. So and then to also just, yeah, focus on word of mouth.
That is the thing that sells books.
(45:52):
And it can feel fickle and it can feel hard, but it can also feel really hopeful.
And it's so motivating when you see the right person, like with a review who
just gets the book completely.
And so I would say those are the things that if I had to say to my authors to
focus on those things, those would be the key things.
(46:13):
And word of mouth mostly means like online, because obviously we can't track
literal, you know, person to person.
I know, but that is the thing that the person to person connection is the thing
that is most like selling of course, but yeah, impossible to track.
So that's why a lot of marketing feels like a black box because it's just,
(46:34):
you know, you're doing things for awareness and, and it's hard to track,
but hopefully it builds into something that you can track and that is a sale.
And yeah, I would say also, if you have a local bookstore, always visit and
say like, hey, thanks so much for being my local bookstore. Here's a galley of my book.
(46:57):
And that can always be really helpful. And even if you're not talking to the
store manager, like everyone who works at a bookstore loves books.
So. Well, thank you so much, Anne. This is so interesting.
I'm really excited that we got to get you on and you could share some of your
wisdom. Yeah, I think it's really great.
So I know like my book rollout would not have happened the way it did if it
(47:19):
wasn't for you. So I'm eternally grateful.
Brilliant, really. Thank you. It was such a privilege to work on it and thank
you both so much for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming on.
Thanks for listening. This has been an episode of How Books Work.
Join us on our next episode.
Music.
Music.
(00:05):
How Books Work, Real Talk with editors, agents, and publishing insiders.
Hosted by writers Julie Seitao and Alice Robb.
Anne Jaconet is a senior marketing manager at Doubleday Books with nearly a
decade of experience in book publishing.
As a title marketer, she develops ad campaigns, pitches, partnerships,
(00:28):
and provides social media strategy and content for a wide range of books.
Prior to working at Doubleday, she was a title marketer at Gallery Books,
an imprint of Simon & Schuster and Abrams Books.
Today, she specializes in nonfiction, working with bestselling authors including
David Graham, Colson Whitehead, Patrick Radden Keefe and Susan Casey.
(00:51):
Anne, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to talk about title marketing because I think it's the most fun
job in all of publishing. And I had the delight to work with Julie on your book.
So, yeah, I'm excited to dive in.
Yeah. So do you want to explain what is title marketing for us authors?
(01:13):
Yeah, absolutely. So basically, a title marketer is the person who's kind of,
honestly, kind of like a project manager for all things marketing.
And the way I kind of like to divide marketing and publicity in my mind is publicities,
anything that's unpaid, the
reviews that you're getting for free or that someone's pitching for you.
(01:33):
We're not paying for our marketing, anything that is supported with advertising dollars.
And there's some overlap for sure, especially with things like newsletters and podcasts.
And marketing will also encompass everything social media.
So I'll end up spending, honestly, too much time online and on Instagram and
TikTok and just ruining the algorithm for my wonderful job, which is mostly on nonfiction books.
(02:00):
Yeah. So I guess I just wanted to ask, there's so much happening right now in marketing.
Obviously, it's changing every minute.
Maybe you could talk about, I mean, my experience with you is very robust and
quite different from what I had when I published my first book in 2019,
when I don't even know if I really met the marketing person.
(02:21):
So is that typical with just Doubleday or Penguin Random House that you would
have your dedicated own marketing person like that? Yeah, I would say it's pretty
typical of any major publisher that you would get a dedicated marketer.
Marketing is an interesting thing because the books will come to me when they're already finished.
Usually, they'll have a finished manuscript. And the editorial team will pitch
(02:46):
them internally first to marketers and publicists. And I put in my bids for what I want to work on.
And every book gets a marketer. I take most of our nonfiction titles.
My colleagues tend to work on more of the fiction books.
Although fiction is its own muscle. So I always like to work on one every so often.
So yeah, the authors are coming to me usually when the bulk of their writing is done.
(03:10):
Maybe... I think, Julie, we probably first connected when we're maybe doing
final tweaks on your final pass or just line changes.
And the way I like to start thinking about my marketing campaigns is building
an audience because every book, you know, you have to, there's sort of an obvious
audience that comes to mind.
(03:31):
And then I like to think of kind of a reach audience. And with nonfiction,
I think it's so much more unique and interesting because you can find people
outside of just this literary circle.
You know, we're thinking about like, okay, who's interested in like fashion
and history or who's interested in feminist history, who's interested in ballet.
And so that's when I start to develop an audience. And then once we have galleys,
(03:55):
we really do that early awareness.
And one thing that I always like to keep in mind for marketing is a spend doesn't
necessarily or almost never dictates how a book will do.
You can put all the money in the world behind a book. But if you don't have
the awareness and the word of mouth, it's so hard.
So that's why we put so much energy into getting early reads.
(04:16):
And there's kind of this horrible, I'm sure it's like mind blowing,
hurry up and wait process for authors where you're like, I'm not hearing any feedback.
And it's because we're waiting to hear from readers and salespeople and all
those like first people who get the galleys and the e-galleys of the book to
sort of get a sense of who our audience is.
Is it who we think it is? Does it line up with the audience that we kind of selected?
(04:38):
And also what sort of key points are jumping out to them as a reader?
So, you know, when I read an author's book, I'll have my own idea about like
what sticks out the most to me.
But, you know, I end up working on a lot of what I call dad books, which I love.
But, you know, books you buy your dad for Father's Day. I might be the preeminent
like shipwreck marketer in Philadelphia.
(05:04):
So I know what sticks out to me. But, you know, it's a little bit outside my audience.
And so I want to be sure I'm reading reader reviews on Goodreads for our bookstagrammers
who we know and work with and trust and get a sense of what's really sticking
out to them in the story and what makes this look different and really sellable.
And then that kind of takes us through the early awareness phase.
(05:27):
And then a lot of marketing comes to life so much closer to publication,
which I know can be so frustrating. reading.
But that's when we kind of develop an advertising campaign, if your book has
that, and kind of hit upon our key messaging.
And we've firmed up our audience. We know what the key selling points are.
(05:49):
And here's how we intend to introduce your book to the world.
So does that kind of make sense in the run-up to publication, at least?
Yeah. So just thinking about it from the authors, because I feel like that's
mostly new to me. Like, I feel like authors are super involved in the publicity.
But like, what can authors do during that state, during everything you just
(06:12):
described to kind of, is there anything or is it just kind of out of our hands?
No, that's a great question. I think there are a lot of things you can do.
I would say in, I mean, some of it depends.
You have, like, if you've written a book before, you can look at the people
who are key supporters of your first book and say like, hey,
(06:32):
here's a list of people I want to get galleys to.
It's also a great time you know as an author
you're thinking about your book more than anyone else uh you're closest
to more so you're probably in
contact with more people who you think are your ideal
reader so it's always helpful for me when authors or agents and editors send
along people that they find online they're like oh we think this person would
(06:54):
be a perfect we call them big mouths for books for a finished copy or an early
copy and that can be really useful and then when When we get closer to publication,
you know, I don't think every author necessarily needs to have a social media
platform, especially if it's something they're not interested in.
But if it is something that they already have and want to maintain beyond book
(07:19):
publication, definitely, definitely commit some time and resources to,
you know, one or two platforms that you can dedicate time to.
Don't be on TikTok if you don't want to be on TikTok.
Like TikTok's great, TikTok's wonderful, but like your publisher's probably on TikTok.
And if you're not in the habit of scrolling and like familiarizing yourself
with the content, it's just gonna be like more work that's not that fun and
(07:43):
not that engaging for readers.
Cause the audience is pretty sophisticated into what, like readers know what feels.
A little bit self-prolowy and what does it. And so if your audience is on Facebook
and like, that's where they interact and that's where they're finding their
books and they're kind of a book-loving audience, that's perfect.
(08:05):
Just leverage that as much as possible.
Yeah, it's interesting. I remember one of the things you mentioned to me was
that like the marketing department was finding that it was really much more like a bottom-up kind
of thing that seems to be working in terms of selling books rather than maybe top down.
(08:25):
So rather than like a review selling a book, it's more like the word of mouth
from the social media stuff.
I think I think that's what you meant. Maybe you could expand on that and like
explain what's kind of working right now in the market.
Totally. Yeah, word of mouth is what Zali's book.
So for all the authors out there, early reads really do matter.
If it feels like we're giving away a lot of copies of your galleys or e-galleys.
(08:49):
That is why it's because we want, by the time a reader sees your book in their
local independent bookstore, they know like, oh, my friend read this.
Like, oh, I've seen this online.
And the other thing that really works in marketing for better and worse that
I'm seeing right now is to make things feel as personal as things.
So when I'm reaching out to bookstagrammers or potential readers,
(09:12):
I want them to know that like, I understand their tastes. Like I'm reaching
out to someone and pitching them a book that is entirely up their alley.
So one thing that authors can also do is do some of that outreach and DM people on their own.
Also because, not just because your marketer's too busy too,
but also because it's harder to ignore an author than it is to ignore a publisher.
(09:35):
Just a random DM from a corporate entity is a little bit...
A little bit easier to like mark as read and
ignore whereas an author reaching out to someone who's
reading books in the same marketplace is is much
more enticing and feels much more so i always try to do make like figure out
what i can do to make the run of book smart thing feel personal and feel so
(09:58):
just thinking and feel really tailored to uh i feel like the audience and the
reader mostly new to me like i feel like authors are super involved yeah i guess Yes.
Another question I had was, you know, we often hear as authors that it's sort of baked in already.
Like if there's going to be a big book, you know, that the publisher puts a
lot of heft behind something and you can kind of feel, you know,
(10:20):
are you going to be like a mid list or whatever?
Or like, are they going to actually like put some is it is it's totally baked in?
Or do you think there's some like flexibility from the publisher side where
if they are seeing some traction that surprises them, maybe they will throw
more money behind it? or, I don't know, or just change how they're thinking
or what happens behind the scenes with all of that?
(10:40):
Yeah, it's a good question. In some ways, it is a little bit open.
Like by the time I get your book pitched to me, they're probably still deciding your idea.
Or by the time I get my titles assigned to me, probably deciding the print run.
Usually the budget is kind of assigned to a title marketer.
But that said, if the book hasn't been read enough now or early,
(11:02):
early, if we get a ton of feedback from the sales team where they're like, oh,
this is that seems like this could be really big or if a publicity plan is,
you know, an author has huge hits coming up, that's something that we're especially
if it's that we'll put a lot more on our radar and say, like,
hey, we should put a little money behind this.
And then the other thing that's such a big part of our job behind the C-Commit
(11:25):
is our thing in publicity,
just communicating with the sales team and saying like, here's the rest of the
time, sir, or more and more often, like, here are things that our three firms,
but that we think will happen.
So much is happening, so much is happening, which is really hard.
But people are pre-ordering less and less.
So if an author does do a pre-order campaign, I recommend running it much closer
(11:50):
to on sale, just because it's more time to build those reader reviews. use.
And your average reader isn't necessarily a big pre-orderer.
You know, when I think about me and my friends who are buying books,
like there are multiple books a month, which, oh God, we spend too much money on books.
(12:10):
I maybe pre-order a couple books a year and, you know, I'm in the industry.
So I think it's more and more rare for people to pre-order
anecdotally so if there is an app
campaign we're recommending it like
right before on sale but yeah so some stuff is baked
in but i do think that if there's a lot of support
(12:32):
if there are really strong reviews things can shift around and likewise they
can shift down too totally you know if we're or is what's not even shift down
but if we're seeing in reader reviews views that like oh we've been marketing
this book as like fine thriller but people are really.
Gravitatingly more to the literary aspect of it and
(12:54):
like the character descriptions and people who
are going in doing this as a thriller are going to be let down so
people who go in different expectations are going to
probably enjoy it a lot and the other thing that's so some of this picked in
but i think there's always room for to like to refine and find your audience
because just because a book isn't getting the right traction doesn't mean that
(13:16):
it's not the right fit for someone. I think it means we need to save a book.
To refine our audience and our message, really. So, one thing that I think that
some of that outreach I guess that's a little disheartening with the pre-order thing just because.
For, you know, to try to make the list, obviously, the bestseller list or any
(13:37):
list, it's usually like the pre-orders and the things that really help, right?
So, I guess that unless the total number comes down as a result of that or I
don't know, like if the whole, you know, level sinks down but otherwise that
doesn't make it harder. It does.
I don't know.
I guess I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily because it means that people
(14:01):
are just and feel more likely to gravitate to a book after it's on sale, which is great news.
Like we've seen books rise up on TikTok after being out for years and years.
You know, I think Taylor Jenkins, she hadn't been an author for many, many years.
She only recently got a huge seller status many years after the fact.
(14:25):
So I think that can be disheartening in some ways, but it does just mean that
readers are discovering things in different ways.
Yeah, and pre-orders are kind of a numbers one,
so I will watch this and Julie knows I'll also share them widely in some ways,
(14:46):
but but they're not they're not but they
can be really effective and so and so it's
such a it's such a tricky balance and deciding
the front and the other thing to keep in mind for is that you're a brand name
author if you're a dating author that they don't know what to explain and that's
(15:11):
that's not a bad sign that doesn't mean your book's going to be a failure.
It just means that shit's coming up. Like it means awareness is your long play.
So yeah, there are different sides to marketing. Some are very measurable and
need sales and pre-orders.
And then we do as an awareness play and we're trying to build an author and
keep their platform for the long haul and make sure of them like backlist.
(15:34):
Because that really is where a publisher gets money is backlist sales.
So obviously, we want to set up the book for success upfront. front.
But we also want it to be, you know, when people think about,
like, oh, I'm buying a book on reordering London deep sea.
Susan Gacy is, like, the woman who I rate for deep sea exploration.
And even if that book's a year old, I still know that, like,
(15:55):
that is the resource I want.
Just because it's more tied to those three reviews. And so when a book does
kind of, like, bubble up on TikTok years after publication.
Does that tend to be, I mean, the publisher is
not investing staying in the backlist in
that way so is that just like random luck like
which is our authors pitching book talkers
(16:17):
years later like how does that do you guys know how that comes about yeah and
if it's happening years down the line it usually is more and more support and
hopefully we like to think as marketers it means we've set that up really well
it's lived on someone's shelf and we've gotten it it's the right way we're out
of sale on the front end of course i'll try to
TikTokers and I would say you have a non-fiction author, at least you don't
(16:41):
have TikTok, you can maybe borrow a friend's phone that has TikTok and search
down hashtags related to your readout and see who comes up.
And the challenge with non-fiction reader that I think is really fun is finding
someone who's invested in the category, but who's also in the reader.
So you want to really find that overlap.
But yeah, it's a little bit of luck and a little bit of magic and a lot People
(17:04):
who are going to the book as much as possible with an audience that we've set
up are going to probably enjoy it a lot more.
So do you ever do like a marketing campaign down the line, like either when
a paperback comes out or or even just, you know, holiday or whatever,
like, you know, the attention you get when you book first comes out is like one thing.
(17:26):
But then it feels like you kind of you know what I mean? Like it sort of filters
out over time and then that's that.
So I just wondering. Yeah, totally.
Great question. yeah we you know campaigns ideally every
also has a title and in a perfect world that title is the same one or any list
(17:46):
it's usually like orders and the things that really help right so we do have
at your H&S half double day we do have a total number comes down as a way,
you don't know like if the whole key priority sinks down.
Doesn't that make it harder our marketing director will say like yes we've seen
these books bubble up on tiktok I don't know.
(18:06):
I guess I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily because it means that Peach
OI and Doubleday was when women were lagging.
And that book just continues to wait and be looked for by sellers.
And so we just keep putting advertising courses behind it. And it's not a huge spend.
But it's still a huge... She had this been an offer for many years.
(18:27):
We know that the audience is there.
And this years after the fact. So I think that it can be disheartening in some
ways. Is there anything that we should be doing from a marketing perspective
after that initial big push in terms of that?
I mean, you know, for those of us that might not be like a consistent as,
(18:51):
you know, like a way to kind of lean, I don't know, like what is it that we
should be thinking about just kind of as our career is going when we're working
on the next book or whatever,
you were doing so you know yeah i would it's
such a balance so if you have a platform and
another thing to keep in mind for crew use it and use it in a
way that feels your differentness with you like you're a
(19:12):
brand name other verse if you're a dandy first of all because so that establishes
you as something that you don't know what is going to affect an extra and also
because it builds really really by other authors so it makes sense to be along
the line when your new book comes out like so yeah they're sharing their different types of things.
Sales as you can see uh so that's
(19:35):
one thing and and we're trying to you know you can always ask your
publisher you can run a giveaway um and make sure because that's a pretty uh
that really is where they help us easy enough that they'll gain so obviously
gain some visibility and then the other thing to keep in mind is how am i we
also want to be you know when people one thing think about like is there anything else i can be doing.
(20:05):
So, yes, if your family and friends are keen to leave reviews on Amazon,
that actually does help.
Does that tend to be, I mean, to be screaming at the publisher is not investing
in the back of some 50 Amazon reviews.
That's like a really great place to be.
Is it our authors pitching? Is that what you said? Booked up years later.
(20:26):
Like, how does that, did you guys know how that comes from?
Yeah. you know that continues down the line it
usually is good reviews and amazon reviews i
think it's easier
said than done but you can also you can try to like tiktokers and say you're
(20:47):
at another like i don't want to see you don't have but if you mean like i can
borrow a friend's phone and search my day i wish i used to read it to your book
so thumbs up so yeah and then And then with the other thing,
I think Julie and I talked about this.
I know not every author is doing, but if they want to put resources behind that.
So you want to release your own marketing steps behind your book's campaign.
(21:10):
I would say that's pretty much always best for me, at least right now in 2024.
That's pretty much always best for me on Facebook and Instagram ads.
Can you ever do a marketing campaign?
Which is kind of a boring, it's not always the most exciting thing.
Or even just, you know, holiday or whatever.
Like, you know, the attention we get when you first come out is like one thing,
(21:34):
but then it feels like you kind of, you know what I mean?
Like it sort of transfers out over time and then that's that. So I'm just wondering.
Totally. But we do see like Facebook ads just continue to sell.
Yeah, we think about campaigns, ideally every year, but then the other thing
that can be a title marketer is Amazon ads.
That's a lot more money than the hardcover, but I can remember, you know,
(21:54):
know what amazon does have a lot of power and industry we do
um and then the final thing i would say is if you're
an author let's spend money and they'll kind of this one's a
little bit more self-pubbed or if you're an ebook is
a bus title and that will uh boost your
marketing director will say like we've seen these books what
is that what is that yeah okay a book that i worked
(22:17):
on when i'm fresh that is kind of uh it was
playing women and that book just continues to be an
indie book and so then it will often do post-publication resources behind it
and it's not a huge deal but it's still and your book will be on sale as some
books you know 299 in one day or any and so you'll see a sale and it's just a
(22:41):
really great way to sell a bunch of copies, get some awareness.
Obviously, you're not selling them at a similar rate, but it's a good way to get a ton of viewers.
As we all know, we're out of this one.
So, I mean, you know, for those of us that might not be like a consistent,
you know, like a way to kind of, I don't know, what is it that we should be thinking about?
(23:05):
You don't hear as much about people kind of designing their own ad campaigns, you know?
So is that like, let's say you're an author and you're like,
I want to spend money on Facebook and Instagram.
I mean, do you then have to go off and like design an ad or is it just like promoting?
I hope people know how to do that. I spend. I establish these views as someone
(23:26):
who is an advert and non-fiction.
They use the flesh. And it works over your product. camaraderie among others
and it makes that just kind of a person who comes out someone's like making
me share my blood i've been such a fan of you most frequently when you want to as you can see um.
(23:51):
Enough i think that also asks the publisher if you're spending your own money,
Julia, I think you asked first public, is there anything else I can be doing?
I'll always come up with something else for an author to do it for.
Your book is set up on a beautiful display. Use that for an enthusiasm.
(24:13):
I mean, can you provide for your family and friends to leave reviews on Amazon?
The other thing that you can do is provide for you Amazon rankings.
If you're getting a number, those can be useful.
When you're surrounding that, if you can get over 50 Amazon reviews,
views that's like things that look are really great to be more like um maybe an influence,
(24:33):
that's a good place to be and hopefully you know what percentage of the authors that you work with.
Don't necessarily read them if you're not sure you know nerves of steel i would
say it's not yours and it's done but you can also you know i would say it's
(24:54):
i work on a your editor like i I don't want to see Goodreads reviews,
but if you would send me like the five-star ones that you think will make my day, please do.
I often hire independent publicists. And then the other thing that I think Julia
and I talked about, I know not everyone is doing, but if they want to put resources on marketing,
(25:15):
especially because behind, you know, a publicity is, I would say that's.
Pretty much the hard thing to look at when you're in at least right
now you're not online 2020 you're pretty much always going
on facebook immediately i can always say no but
instagram ads you have and so that's which is kind of a bummer it's not always
the most exciting thing it's certainly like i also doesn't do you see really
(25:37):
cool and a lot of the other stuff that's happening especially when you see uk
publishers and you're like what i'm doing i got supporters Live piano player
in every Waterstones to promote this.
Relatively, you see, like, Facebook ads just continue to sell those copies.
And then the other thing that can be very beautiful and organic is Amazon ads.
(25:59):
That's a lot more money. It can become a great voice for it.
You know, Amazon does have a lot of power in the industry.
Publicity is, like, prestigious. if you can you know to
like really put an emphasis on like trying to get that excerpt
or trying to get this review you know what i mean and
then marketing it feels so like sales the business
(26:19):
side of it and what is that but like what is that you know the fact of having
to like pay an influencer to like do something about your book feels like you
specifically you know i think a lot of authors have a hard time thinking that
way or don't think that way or feel uncomfortable comfortable with that kind of a notion,
you know what I mean, which I think is to their own detriment in my personal opinion,
(26:43):
but I do think that's like, you know, like a reality.
And it's just a really great way to sell a bunch of copies, get some awareness.
Obviously, you're not selling them at...
The normal price but it's it's a good way to
get a lot of readers oh she went off which as
we all know word of mouth so so yeah that's that's kind of the book club platform
(27:06):
um so yeah that's interesting because i feel like we hear a lot as authors people
talk about like hiring independent publicists but you don't hear as much about
people kind of i do designing their own ad campaigns.
So is that like let's say you're an author and you're like i want to spend money
on facebook Facebook, and Instagram.
Are you just, I mean, do you then have to go off and like design an ad or is it just like promoting?
(27:29):
To get a good critical review. How do people know how to do that?
But it's a lot more like, you know, you're sort of just hoping that you know what will happen.
So it's a lot of extra money to spend and set aside some of your advance to
spend on you know, it feels much more natural to like focus on the publicity.
(27:51):
Also because a lot of non-fiction authors i guess
are journalists and so they'll just i think that
way more whereas the marketing feels like sorted do
you know what i mean to pay an influencer to say
something nice about you feel like you've come up with a couple of assets crazy
to say that you've really run the best um on social media is often i don't know
(28:13):
like all lifestyle photos you know there's also like a couple of interviews
so we know your book set up on a beautiful display with some bookshelves for us.
Hopefully something your publishing team can provide for you.
I'm not using these to work, whereas like the other things that your team's
providing for you, like graphics, and also the other thing I'll always say is
like marketing is the last thing I would try.
(28:35):
I'm just hoping that things that
look more organic or more like maybe I'm going to use my search on this.
I'm going to have to find out how much sugar feels more genuine.
But even though it doesn't necessarily translate to sales. Would you say what
percentage of the authors that you work with have their own publicist or their
own marketer? Yeah, it's harder.
It's interesting, too. Does it translate to sales?
(28:58):
I would say it's just not the majority, certainly the minors.
So I would say in some ways, I feel like such an unfair and stressful answer.
And I always republish my author's end. I would say one, two,
I'm an independent publicist.
Well, you're a publicist, but I'm an independent marketer.
(29:19):
But yeah, we don't see a ton of independent marketers. But I think it's a huge
opportunity there, especially because we're giving them a book that they would read.
Publicity is, so it's a hard thing to book when you're, you know,
you're not buying, you can always have your publishers suffering and company asks.
And yeah, I'm going to say no, but again, you're the one who knows how to add
the book's topic to the list to be effective.
(29:41):
There's one thing that, honestly, your phone's algorithm is already kind of worked.
Really like oh straw and to make a strong case for is
working directly with screenshots and to your marketer because
they are my first book and um and you can
often get them to share your book i know i'll be doing my a real which is my
stories at night you know just price that and really it's gonna be gonna make
(30:04):
something as worse beautiful and manic and custom not much about but and the
writing of the voice like the bones are who is a reader part of the issue is
that like authors think about like publicity is like
prestigious if you can you know to like really put
an emphasis on like trying to get that excerpt or trying
to get this review you know what i mean and then the
(30:25):
marketing it feels sort of like a business side of
it and not like sorted but like maybe a bit more
you know it's certainly not like you know the fact of
having to pay an influencer to like do something about your book it feels like
you know i think a lot of authors have a hard time thinking that way or don't
think that way or feel uncomfortable with that kind of a notion which I think
(30:49):
is to their own detriment in my personal opinion but I do think that's like,
they're doing the job you know like a reality.
So from there I weirdly enough I ended up
planning that comic-con for abrams i was like oh she went off and sort of pop culture books,
(31:11):
and some home and gardening didn't really do too much on a couple of cookbooks
which are always so but okay i think a huge challenge to market and that's for
that no i do think i think it's like a problem for authors like to their own
detriment that they see publicity as you know it is like
prestigious or more prestigious or like career advancing in some ways,
(31:36):
you know, to get a critical review.
But it's a lot more like, you know, you're sort of just hoping there's,
you know, who knows what will happen.
So if authors have extra money to spend or whatever, to set aside some of their
advance to spend on this, you know, it feels much more natural to like focus on the publicity.
(31:58):
Also because a lot of non-fiction authors i guess
are journalists probably or have that you know what i mean so
they think that way more whereas the marketing field.
Like feels sordid you know what.
I mean to pay like an influencer to say.
Something nice about you feel there there's just
familiarity like we
(32:20):
i don't know like i think a lot of non-fiction authors
also like write book review so we kind of get
how to I just think it's a book reviewer
like what might appeal to an editor a magazine
we used to work for whatever whereas like influencers just feel
like unfamiliar I'm fully yeah I'm trying
that's totally fair and also the other thing I'll always say
(32:41):
is like a marketing is the last thing always prioritize publicity together
as well it's your publicist just like
oh would you write an op-ed like prioritize that time wise
10 times out of 10 for sure really you
think because you know it doesn't necessarily translate
to sales as much yeah but if so
it's well sometimes it depends on what your goal is yeah
(33:02):
and it's bizarre it's interesting too because it's does it
translate to sales it it varies and it's
just harder to track in some ways so in
some ways i know that feels like such a unfair stressful answer
small today's a but and i always encourage my authors
to like pass them back to me and have the marketer me
the marketer make the offer to ask if like will you shout
(33:24):
about this person's book please we'll give you money and and
hopefully we're finding somewhere where it's such an obvious fit and
you know nine out of ten times we're giving them a book that they would read
and love any place so so that really is the goal but yeah we can you can always.
Have your publishers that are going to come to be asked even if you're just
(33:45):
again you're the one who knows the book's topics best so you're.
There's a good chance you're, honestly, your phone algorithms already kind of
learned that, like, oh, you're your interest and is serving up people.
And you can, like, screenshot and send to your marketer. I've ruined my phone algorithm forever.
But it's good because I just, you know, I'll be doing my, kind of watching my
(34:07):
stories at night and just screenshot and send it to my work email and be like,
oh, this is going to be good for a sports website. that I know Leon not that much about.
But I know this is the fourth deal sponsor who is a reader also. A talker.
Because maybe I'm- Do you want to talk a little bit about your career and how
you got to this position?
Because it is a little like, yeah, how did that happen?
(34:31):
Yeah, I'm happy to. So I started a mid-sized publisher called Abrams Books,
which makes beautiful, beautiful cookbooks, coffee table books.
If you are looking for like a beautiful
art check the spine i bet you it's abrams and
then sarah was a marketing assistant and then transitioned
(34:52):
to title marketer marketing associate and associates in the publishing industry
harder than anyone across the board and every department because they're doing
the job of an assistant and shouting whatever is about them um so from there
i planned weirdly enough i ended up uh planning that comic-con
for Abrams books for a few years
(35:12):
and worked on a lot of graphic novels and sort of pop culture rebuffs.
And some home and gardening.
Didn't really do too much. Worked on a couple of books, which are always so
fun to read, but I think a huge challenge to work with.
And then from there, I worked at Gallery Books, which is a new print of Simon & Schuster.
And Gallery is best known for celebrity memoirs, probably, and some really wonderful
(35:38):
commercial fiction thrillers.
So there I was a title marketer and was there for a couple of years.
And then I moved on to Double Days, my final form.
So yeah, well, by enlisting
on a lot of wonderful nonfiction books and a few fiction books.
And I really focus on building authors into brands.
(36:00):
And also like, okay, I like nonfiction. I think the challenges of nonfiction
marketing are so different from fiction because it feels,
to me at least, it feels like the fiction marketplace is so flooded and it's
so hard to just choose a book from the shelves because there's just so much. us.
And with nonfiction, I feel like the questions about who the audience is and
(36:22):
discovery opportunities are much more interesting.
And also, I love working with nonfiction authors because I just think you guys
are the smartest, coolest people.
So I say I have the best job in publishing because I get to work on so many
different projects where I'm trying to fully invest in your book,
The Weird World, and immerse myself in like who the audience is,
(36:45):
what the information is, what is appealing to an average reader,
what's appealing to someone who's already studied in this topic.
And then, you know, the book comes out and I get a whole other project.
So it sort of sometimes it feels like I'm putting myself through a very bizarre
college curriculum of Doubleday books.
(37:08):
But yeah, that's how I landed at Doubleday. and been there for a few years.
And yeah, I work on a relatively small team.
Doubleday is a pretty lean imprint, but we work on some pretty incredible work.
And did you always know that marketing was like the part of the publishing industry
(37:30):
that you were most interested in?
Not at all. I landed in marketing. I thought I wanted to like be a designer and design book covers.
I quickly found that marketing was the most fun.
And also, I didn't really have the design skills. I knew just enough to be dangerous.
(37:51):
Just enough to design a quote card for my authors. pop
and like the person and yeah i guess i
kind of knew i wasn't cut out for editorial that's such
a different skill set and it's such a incredible time
like to me editors are kind of the black box like
oh i don't understand that process enjoy but but
(38:12):
i knew that i would be on more of marketing and
or number two or sales because i'm kind of
a talker because maybe be evident
so you want so the sort of secret
of publishing is that we all secretly work for the sales team
um if you're not better
but even though it's exciting do you like um early reviews like do you talk
(38:36):
with the publicist as well like kind of hash out what's going on like are you
guys in constant communications oh yeah okay and the sales team too or no just
more like you and the and the publicist kind of a thing.
Which me and the publicist or the marketer and the publicist and the author
are the kind of core team. But it really is.
So I would say the marketer and the publicist in a perfect world are working together.
(39:01):
I love our publicity team. We're always chatting about the book,
about like what's working, what's not, what's coming down the pipe.
And it's really important for the marketer and publicist to remain in contact
because also that's how, well, first of all, it's how we get great blurbs to
throw all over your ads. And second of all, it's how we know what markets we already have covered.
(39:22):
Like, oh, we already have a decent vanity fair. We can target that.
Or if, I don't know, maybe like, oh, we were expecting something for time. It's not happening.
So let's add time to our targeting here.
Or yeah, sometimes we want to hit it twice where, okay, you have a great review
coming out on this day on the New York Times.
(39:44):
The New York Times ads will follow two weeks later. So those readers have already
seen a review and they know.
So yeah, we're in pretty constant communication with publicity.
And then the sales team, it's a little bit more formal because basically a sales
representative will tell us what the reps need to hear.
And they're like, okay, we're ready for an update on this one.
(40:06):
They're going out into the field and we want the biggest number possible.
We want them to really push these thoughts.
Can you tell us what's happening? And so then we'll kind of gather all the top
line items and make it look, you know, as impressive as you possibly can so
that they can say, like, hey, if you put this book in your store,
it will fly off the shelves.
(40:26):
Really sensible. It's awesome.
But yeah, I would say the other thing, sorry, not to jump in,
but the other thing to keep in mind is there are so,
especially at big publishers, so many more people touch your books than you even know,
like the marketer for your book, but there's, there are designers who are not
(40:47):
just working on the book,
but designers who are designing your ads and, and our ad buying team who like,
I'm coming to them with an ad that they'll say, like, they'll be the ones who
are we're booking it and putting it into place.
So, so yeah, it's a, it's a, a privilege to work with such a big team,
but it certainly can mean that sometimes things move slower also means there
are more resources to go around.
(41:08):
So for the author perspective, like when we're going,
you know, it's always that fraught moment when we have our first big like publicity meeting or say,
you know, with marketing and all of that, like what, what are like three things
or something thing that they should like, we should all keep in mind,
or we should try to, you know, that would be helpful if we're trying to partner
(41:28):
with, you know, marketing.
I think like Alice said, it's a little easier for us from a publicity typically,
because a lot of us come from the media world.
So it's, but the rest of it's more convenient.
Okay. I would say, think about, so I know you've talked to some editors who
have sort of explained like how comps work, at least on the early end.
(41:51):
I would say come to us with comps that
both in the book world and outside of it like if
you're like this is the pop culture audience like the
person who watches mad men will love my book and sometimes we do do individualized
research into books for that but sometimes we don't so if you have like a few
(42:12):
pop culture things to hinge the book to that can be something that's really
great and really selling. So that's thing number one.
I would say thing number two is start to gather names and addresses of your
network of people who you want to share the finished book far and wide.
And I would say thing three is ask how your marketer is getting early reader
(42:37):
support and early reviews.
And there can be a few ways they do that. It can be a Goodreads giveaway Giveaway
or Storygraph is a new website that is also doing giveaways.
It's a similar platform to Goodreads. It's just a little bit newer.
Or it can be NetGalley, which NetGalley is a tool that publicity uses and marketers
will also use to give away a ton of e-galleys.
(42:58):
So I would say those are the things to keep in mind to ask, how are we creating
great word of mouth on the marketing end for my book?
And that's something that will that will hopefully both serve you as an author
and also help your marketer understand what your vision is.
Well that's really helpful i feel like it's interesting also about the comp
(43:20):
using comp titles from the art books because i feel like i've definitely tried to do that at,
pitching editorial stage and try like my book is like black spawn and being told that's not.
That's not an appropriate comp okay that is totally good to know for the editors
(43:40):
but for mark yeah save that count for the marketer because we love to be like
yes black swan absolutely and And even if it's older,
if it's like no longer on air, if it was a huge hit like the last one,
like that, it's that name will still still be really useful.
Because you'll use that to go find influencers who talked about it or have shown
interest. Like that's that's the connection of it.
(44:03):
Totally, totally. Or even just it'll be, you know, I find that the more the
more personal and honestly, a little bit weird.
I make my pitch emails to influencers, the bigger of a response I get.
So if I'm like in the subject line, this book is like black swan for for the
nonfiction girlies like they they'll be like different from like your book is
(44:27):
in the middle. Love Double Down.
Like it's just to make it a little bit. Yeah. Feel feel different than something
that everything everyone else is doing in your inbox.
That's so helpful. It's so great. Is there anything we haven't asked you that
you think we should know? Oh gosh, I don't know. I feel like I touched forever.
(44:49):
No, it's so great. I think, you know, it's like,
The whole point is to try to educate authors so we are more,
you know, we can be more active participants in all of this.
So I feel like it's really helpful.
Yeah, I would say as authors focus on, well, it's such a hard balance for you guys.
(45:10):
I think authors are in such a vulnerable and incredible job that you guys do
because you're putting so much of yourself out into the world.
And then everyone's like, don't read the reviews that promote yourself,
but like, don't be too self-promoting.
So I'm so grateful for any author that shows interest and care in the promotion process.
(45:32):
And I would say, you know, take what you're doing in your real life and what
you're already doing online and connect it to the book.
And hopefully that connection feels organic because it's the book came from
you. So and then to also just, yeah, focus on word of mouth.
That is the thing that sells books.
(45:52):
And it can feel fickle and it can feel hard, but it can also feel really hopeful.
And it's so motivating when you see the right person, like with a review who
just gets the book completely.
And so I would say those are the things that if I had to say to my authors to
focus on those things, those would be the key things.
(46:13):
And word of mouth mostly means like online, because obviously we can't track
literal, you know, person to person.
I know, but that is the thing that the person to person connection is the thing
that is most like selling of course, but yeah, impossible to track.
So that's why a lot of marketing feels like a black box because it's just,
(46:34):
you know, you're doing things for awareness and, and it's hard to track,
but hopefully it builds into something that you can track and that is a sale.
And yeah, I would say also, if you have a local bookstore, always visit and
say like, hey, thanks so much for being my local bookstore. Here's a galley of my book.
(46:57):
And that can always be really helpful. And even if you're not talking to the
store manager, like everyone who works at a bookstore loves books.
So. Well, thank you so much, Anne. This is so interesting.
I'm really excited that we got to get you on and you could share some of your
wisdom. Yeah, I think it's really great.
So I know like my book rollout would not have happened the way it did if it
(47:19):
wasn't for you. So I'm eternally grateful.
Brilliant, really. Thank you. It was such a privilege to work on it and thank
you both so much for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming on.
Thanks for listening. This has been an episode of How Books Work.
Join us on our next episode.
Music.
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