Susan Canavan, a literary agent at Waxman Literary Agency, discusses the current state of nonfiction books, the role of AI in publishing, and how the industry is changing. She also shares insights on how important author platforms are for book deals, what makes a successful book launch, and what she looks for when working with clients. Susan also explains why she transitioned from editor to agent and the delicate balance she has to manage when talking to authors and managing their expectations.
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(00:00):
Hi, welcome to our newest episode.
Today we have Susan Canavan on. She is a literary agent at Waxman Literary Agency,
where she focuses on nonfiction and works closely with journalists, academics,
thought leaders, or masters of their craft to shape and sell A-list nonfiction projects and IP. Key.
(00:24):
Prior to that, she was a senior executive editor at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt
for 20 years, acquiring and publishing dozens of New York Times bestsellers.
She's a graduate of Boston College and holds an MFA in creative writing from Emerson College.
Welcome, Susan. We're so excited you could do this today. No,
(00:44):
I'm thrilled to be here. Thrilled to be here.
So we thought we would start by just talking to you a bit about the book business
and where you think things are for nonfiction books today. How's the market?
Boy, you went right for the jugular. For a nonfiction agent.
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2023 has been a challenging year for nonfiction.
It's kind kind of been the year of the celebrity memoir as
you know between spare and most recently
britney spears but you know many many others have
you know that's been the bestseller list predominantly i
think sort of narrative non-fiction is it has been challenging and i you know
(01:31):
i really kind of have been looking at it trying to figure out i think a lot
of us in industry are trying to figure out what's going on and this is always
it's cyclical you know non-fiction is down fiction's up so So everyone wants fiction and then,
you know, and, but it changes and I think it'll come back.
I think part of what I'm feeling we're seeing is that sort of coming out of,
(01:51):
you know, the pandemic and Black Lives Matter and the Me Too movement.
And, you know, there, there was sort of a, there's been a lot of very serious,
heavy nonfiction to kind of come out of, you know, the editors were acquiring
those books. That's where people's heads were.
And I think we've kind of coming out of that and people want more escape.
You know and more storytelling and more you know
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just living in narratives that take
them to another place so that i so i
think you know i think we'll see the pendulum swing back but it has been a tricky
time how much do trends like that actually impact non-fiction writers who are
working on a proposal let's say because it takes so many years to actually see
a project through that i think it's sometimes hard to know how to interpret
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those trends or whether you're supposed
to respond to them somehow as a writer?
Well, that's a really great question. I mean, I think it's, you know,
it is an, it's a slow industry.
And I think our jobs, you know, trying to exist in this stratosphere is to, um.
Really figure out what people are going to want two years down the road,
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you know, in terms of, you know, looking at trends, who can do that?
You know, I don't know, unless you have a crystal ball.
But I really think, you know, as a writer and a journalist, you know,
you have to go with your gut with something that, you know, that really grabs
you and that you really feel passionate about.
And I think, you know, it will find its place and it will find its moment.
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I think trying to write to trends, especially with that incubation period of
a couple of years, it's really hard. It's really hard to do.
That's not to say that, you know, there are moments where, you know,
an author is sort of an expert in the subject or is covering a particular topic
and current events that is timely and, you know, can turn around and write a
(03:41):
book more quickly and respond to trends in that way.
And you see that a lot in certain categories like sports, for instance.
Politics, where journalists will, you know, kind of be in the middle of something
of a topic and be able to write a narrative that publishers can bring out quickly
and respond to those trends.
But that that presents its own challenges as well. But it's doable.
(04:04):
What does that mean that narrative nonfiction, let's say, or nonfiction in general
isn't doing as well? I mean, there are obviously publishers and editors who
that's their main focus.
So what do they do? They don't just sit on the sidelines during it.
Do you mean like the advances are lower for those kind of books right now?
(04:25):
Or you mean the sales numbers are worse and they're just, you know, I don't know.
I guess I don't know exactly what that means that the market is not.
That's a totally valid follow up. And I should have clarified.
I think when I say not working, there's all manner of ways of measuring the success of a book.
I think what I'm really saying in this case is sales are down.
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Nonfiction sales are down. To make the nonfiction list on the New York Times
bestseller list this year was...
Not really much of a leap, you know, because sales just across the board were down.
So I think advances will follow that, you know, if nonfiction books aren't selling
like sort of, you know, I'm thinking of like narrative history or prescriptive
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nonfiction is a different thing, because that actually is working.
And we can talk about that too, if you want. But I think that in terms of narrative
nonfiction, you know, once you sort of see the sales kind of dip and books that
maybe they paid this much money for, but they're not performing to expectation,
then you'll start to see advances kind of come down. They'll just react to the market a little bit.
That being said, editors are really buying.
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I've been out with several projects this fall, and editors are looking for material.
There's been a lot of changes personnel-wise in the industry,
big changes at Penguin Random House, for instance, and other places.
But editors are looking to buy, and it's
just kind of figuring out what consumers want where they're
(05:53):
where readers are what about i mean one thing that
i feel like we see a lot of anxiety about right
now among non-fiction writers is
ai and people looking up their books on you know that website that do you remember
what i'm talking about yeah that lists every single book ever in print i feel
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like yeah the website that listed the book that had been used to train AI.
And you do see sometimes in job ads, like for journalism jobs,
that they want someone who is willing to work with AI, which I think might contribute
to this kind of anxious atmosphere.
But do you think that this is authentically something to worry about for people like that?
(06:40):
You mean that publishers are to AI-generated books instead of real authors?
I think that I mean, you know, When sci-fi starts to enter your daily life,
you know, we all want to run for the hills.
And, you know, it happened with the internet, you know, I mean, it's, I,
but I don't, I think that, that it's a really tricky question,
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but I think that publishers are very mindful of this and very wary of it and
firmly believe in the value and importance of having a writer,
are, you know, that craft and that creation and that copyright and all of that,
you know, is something that is very integral to the ethos of the business.
(07:26):
I'm not going to lie. I'm not really an expert on the AI stuff.
And I don't, you know, we're all sort of floundering and trying to figure out what it means.
We're, you know, trying to put clauses in our contracts to protect our clients against that.
And, you know, this language is literally being discussed with contracts,
heads of contracts departments at all the big five right now.
(07:46):
Like, we're all trying to figure it out. It reminds me a lot of when eBooks
came about, we thought books were going to be dead.
It's a very similar kind of, you know, earth shaking moment happened and in
the music industry, too.
And I think that, but this feels particularly scary.
But I think that there's a lot of energy around ensuring the integrity of the business.
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That being said, will there be publishers who will use AI to generate books
that serve a function and a purpose?
Maybe, but I don't know. I wonder, just in terms of using AI for research,
let's say, or something, if we're going to have to start like crediting AI in
our acknowledgements or, you know, I think like I kind of see it from a writer's
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perspective as like a super Google.
You know, or seeing if I'm covering all my bases or just kind of out of curiosity
what it says, you know, I don't know.
But in terms of like feeling like I'm going to be replaced by AI,
that does seem a bit of a jump, you know, because so much of the whole point of writing
our type you know non-fiction books is typically
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taking a lot of material and synthesizing it in
unique ways like what i'll do with material will
be really different than what you do alice or or someone
else right so yeah it seems like how
can you you know ai might have its own
version but it wouldn't be what i would write you know
i guess although the whole idea is that they copy the
(09:15):
style of different writers but it seems like i
don't know let's not forget that in the non-fiction space
too it's a lot of what
you know and i can i can only speak to that well
i can speak to this as an agent but also as a former editor like a lot of what
you're investing in is the author and who they are and their perspective and
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what they bring to this topic that's different from what someone else might
bring and that is a major piece of how we consider projects.
Books are successful and some are not. And that cannot be replicated by AI.
And that is one of the chief sort of marks that when I'm putting together a
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project, it's who is the author?
What do they bring to this? Why is it different? And why is it desirable?
Why is that going to be a better book than if someone else did it?
It's a soup that we figure out what the ingredients are And someone has to be
sort of stirring the soup in a way that's knowledgeable.
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One thing I'm curious about is I was reading a newsletter this morning,
actually, on like the bestseller list, and they were talking about how it's
sort of baked in that when a publisher buys a book,
they've sort of decided if they think it's the kind of book that's going to
hit the list and they, you know, gear their pitches and their publicity and
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all of that sort of with that in mind.
So if, you know, you have a celebrity memoir, we were talking about,
you know, this is the year of the celebrity memoir,
you know, you're already coming, you know, with your publicity plan in hand
and you're coming to the pitch with all of that, you know, versus,
you know, a journalist who may not be as well known, who doesn't get all that dog and pony show.
Know, if if that's the case, I wonder, how hard is it to break through that
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if you don't already have that kind of, you know, power behind you when you
come into a publishing house, you know, do they look at books fresh?
Have they already made their decisions when they do, you know,
when they when they offer you the advance when they give you the deal,
they've kind of decided where you are on their priority list?
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I don't know. I'm wondering how, how, you know, because Because you have a perspective,
which is so unusual as both an agent and being inside a publishing house.
I'm curious what you think. And maybe if that's changed.
Oh, it absolutely has changed. It is, you know.
Platform, an author who can reach their readers impactfully.
(11:51):
It's not just how many followers you have. It's how you use them.
And are you engaged? And can you reach them?
That absolutely plays into advanced levels. Absolutely.
I mean, it sort of changes kind of the way they even consider a project.
That being said, there's nothing a publisher loves more than a sleeper,
(12:11):
than someone one who defies expectation than someone who, you know,
they might believe in a project, think it has certain hooks.
And if the author comes in and really hustles and figures out how to be their
best advocate, and those sales can build and build and build,
you know, publishers love that stuff.
But it does factor. I mean, I think it's, you can't deny it's going to factor into advanced levels.
(12:35):
You know, a lot of times a publisher will take on something they love just,
just sort of in spite of an author's platform or their track record is another thing.
But that's absolutely changed. It's tricky.
I had launched an editor, Viking, a couple of weeks ago, and we were talking
about the nonfiction and what to do about it.
(12:55):
And she said, that's really what they're looking for is these authors who not
only have the following,
but they have the ability and the sort of engine to convert that into sales
and to proselytize, you know, across platforms in a way that, you know, it's like,
you know, anymore to be an author, you have to be, it's like running your own business.
(13:16):
You have to be a CEO. When did you see that changing?
Was there ever a time when the publisher would just take on a project because
they loved it and then do all the work of, you know, building up the author's brand themselves?
Yeah. I mean, I think with social media, it really changed.
You know, if I had to, if I had to pin it to sort of one thing, but it's just changed.
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There's not the traditional route of,
Oh, if you get a New York Times book review and you get NPR,
you're golden, you know, that like because people get their information in so
many different places and in so many different ways. Now it's you know,
we're not in a monoculture anymore.
So I think that's when it really when it really changed. Yeah,
I mean, we're going to do probably a future episode about hiring your own publicist
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and, you know, exactly what you were talking about, have to be your own advocate.
But I guess I, you know, I don't know if you feel this way, Alice,
but I always feel like as a writer, you know, what happens behind the in the
publishing house always feels like so like a black box of mysteriousness.
And it's really hard, right?
(14:23):
You know, like, what is actually what are the discussions going on?
So I guess what I was trying to ask, and maybe, like, is it ever movable?
Like, are editors ever, maybe they come in, they're excited about a book,
but then, you know, they decide, wow, you know, we thought it would be this
way and this level, but now we're really psyched about it.
(14:46):
That we want to push it more or something like that on their own.
Is there any maneuverability that way? Or is it like everyone's so risk averse
at this point that it's really like they put you in your bucket and that's where
you are and it just gets treated that way from then on? Do you know what I mean?
I don't maybe like, is there anything we can do as authors aside from building
our platform, which we already might have coming into it?
(15:08):
Is there any, like maybe we write an amazing book or I don't know, something happens.
Or I guess if there's like a news event that That would obviously maybe change
something if it's if it's a newsy type book, if there's some additional relevance
or something, you know, a star dies and it's a biography on a star or something like that.
But I mean, a publisher, you know, anyone in this business will tell you we
(15:30):
can look at pie charts and spreadsheets till we're blue in the face. But it's a crapshoot.
I mean, it's a total crapshoot. And there are safe bets, but even the safest bets are not.
You know, foolproof. And so it's a very unusual, quirky business in that way.
And it always has been. And I think it always will be because every book is
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different. Every book has its own life trajectory.
And I think, you know, I mean, I'll give you an example.
I remember when I was at Houghton Mifflin, and we were publishing a book called
Fly Girls, and it was by Keith O'Brien.
And, you know, this was sort of in very early on in this kind of trend of girl,
but they were they were called the girl books. It's kind of started with code girls.
(16:13):
And then there was alpha girl, you know, they're all these anyway.
So this author, Keith O'Brien was writing this book flag.
And, you know, people really loved the book. But I mean, I will be honest with
you, the publicist is like, I've got this guy,
this white male author, and I've got to book him for events or,
you know, for publicity for this book about women, you know,
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and it was, everyone was scratching their heads. You know, these were the conversations we were having.
And Keith went out and hustled. He did speaking of it after speaking of it.
He proselytized about that book. It was incredible.
And it was just a really great book. It got incredible reviews.
It didn't matter. You know, none of that mattered because people just fell in
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love with the book. And the book sold very well.
And it, you know, it defied all our expectations.
And, you know, it was a challenge, but he really drove that.
He was the engine. And he just kept pushing and kept pushing and kept pushing.
Does that help? Yeah. I'm curious, what do you think you, like,
having worked inside Houghton Mifflin and now as an agent, like,
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what perspective does that give you?
Do you think that maybe other agents don't have or, you know,
like, what does that mean in terms of your job as an agent?
Well, you know, I found it, you know, a lot of editors try to become agents and,
find it challenging. I think that what I've found is that I feel like I know
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what's going on on the other side.
I know the challenges that an editor is up against when they're trying to acquire
a book. And acquiring a book is not easy.
You have to really stick your neck out there. You really have to believe in
something. You have to make a case for why it's going to work.
You know, you have to come up with evidence. You have to be passionate about
it, have a vision for it. But it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of energy.
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And if it doesn't work, you know, it's on you, you know, you have to stick your
neck out for something. So it's very easy for editors to say no.
It's very easy for them to find one thing that, you know, oh,
okay, you know, this, this is a thing that needs to be addressed.
And I found the editors are much more risk averse than they used to be.
(18:23):
They used to love something and we'll just figure it out. We'll find a way around
that problem. But now it's the slightest little thing.
So I, I try to make my proposals Teflon, as I say to my clients,
like, so and so in marketing might say this, because, you know,
this is how they react to these kinds of things,
you know, or, you know, I was just working on a proposal a couple of days ago.
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And it's, you know, it's kind of this fun dishy narrative about a media entity.
And there's a joke in it that if you don't really understand the joke,
it could be misconstrued.
And so I'm like, just take it out. like because some marketing
director is going to read this on the train in two minutes before
the meeting they might see that one little thing and
if they don't have time to process the context of it that your project could
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be dead like it's you know and i not to say that they're not reading these things
carefully but you know there are things that you know you have to think about
like people are busy you have to get to the point in a proposal and you have to really think about
how much is too much and how much is too little.
So there are things like that. It also helps, I think...
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To have a perspective, and Julie, you know this well, but when things like,
you know, you're talking about covers, or you're talking about, you know, pub dates,
or, you know, I'm kind of well-versed in the, in sort of the conversation that's
happening around the editor on that side of the desk and the pressures that,
you know, they're kind of playing middleman a little bit.
So I can, I can kind of read through the lines of, of the speak that they might
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be giving an author that is always going to be in sort of cheerleader mode, right?
Not all, you know, everything's sort sort of sugar-coated a little bit.
Not really, but somewhat.
Does that help? And how often are you surprised by something that you really
expected to do well, just not selling or the other way around?
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Do you feel like you can usually predict how a proposal is going to fare?
How a proposal is going to fare? Yeah. Yeah. How a book is going to work?
That's harder. That's harder because for me as an agent,
you know and for a publisher too you're less in
control you're less in control of what's going to happen in the news
cycle that week that it's published or you know yeah there's
(20:36):
so many factors that go into that but you know in non-fiction i mean if fiction
is a different beast and i i'm not person to talk to about that but in non-fiction
you know there are certain kind of marks that you know a project can hit and
if if that kind of comes together in a way I can usually predict.
I'm usually, I'm pretty good. My clients will often ask me, all right,
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so how much do you think this will go for?
And I will never say, but I always have the figure in my head.
I would never tell them because then if I don't get that money,
you know, that's not good for me.
But I do have an idea and I'm usually pretty close, you know,
but there are some projects where, you know, you think it has everything going
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for it and you just, you just don't, and it, and it does,
but you just might not find the right editor at the right moment,
you know, who's in a place, you know, they're oftentimes it's an editor.
Maybe published a book in that category two years ago and it tanked and they won't go near it.
They might go near it in two years, two years, you know, they need more time
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to heal or whatever it is, or, you know, it's just so many different random,
or they, you know, I mean, this happens.
Sometimes you go out with a proposal and you'll send it to an editor and maybe
their kid was sick that week or they're dealing with family stuff or they just
are buried in a crash edit and they just don't have time to...
(22:02):
Consider it. Timing. I mean, that happens too.
So many different factors go into it. But I generally know with a proposal, this has the goods.
My marker is when I sit down to write a pitch letter for a book.
If it writes itself, if I don't have to agonize over it, I'm like, okay, I'm good.
If I can do the pitch in my head and I don't have to actually think about,
(22:25):
okay, how should I say this?
What order should I put the... How should I prioritize the points insights about
this book that I usually have a good feeling about it.
Do you think that's a good, I mean, you know, for nonfiction writers,
often, I mean, I wonder about those pitch letters.
I wonder if that's something that we should like practice or something,
have some kind of, you know what I mean?
To know like, how would an agent pitch this book, you know, to know if it has
(22:48):
that hook or whatever, when you're thinking about ideas. I think that's a really good idea, Julie.
I may actually make my clients do that. Here, write your pitch letter,
but you're giving me homework, more homework for them.
But no, No, I think, honestly, I'm in the process of, I have a submission out
now and I have an auction on Friday and we've been doing meetings.
And this is an entity who is media trained, is on national TV,
(23:10):
like seven days a week, maybe not that many, but anyway.
And the first meeting was a little deer in headlights. And I was a little surprised
and I realized that this person should have, you know, and I gave them a heads
up. I'm like, you need to like, be able to talk about your book and,
you know, like, you need to know your elevator pitch.
You know, that's a question that gets asked in every one of those meetings.
(23:32):
But I think that this person hadn't quite thought, hadn't quite said that aloud
and was back on their heels a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, that is the hardest thing for me to get that, like,
two-line elevator pitch or something, you know, of a whole big nonfiction book.
I don't know. I feel like I just got it for my current book,
which is already finished being written.
So I'm, like, way behind on that. But yeah, I think a pitch letter is where
(23:57):
you have to really kind of crystallize what is this book and why does it matter?
And I found when I was an editor and, you know, when you're an editor,
you know, you receive these things and you have an idea.
You might have written a memo to your acquisitions committee that might sit
in your files for two years. And then the book comes, gets delivered.
And then you're OK, here's your chance to present this book to your sales team.
(24:23):
The thing I would always go to first is the agent's cover letter, because that's it.
It's all there, usually. And it might have changed. And a lot of it,
you might be in a different place than you were when you sold it.
But there's a lot of sort of that sense of what is this project.
And I will say too, as an agent, the difference I found between being an editor
(24:44):
and as an agent is there's no one's pitch letter to look at.
You have to figure that out as an agent from scratch.
And oftentimes, it's, you know, it's like Julie, like you and I,
you know, department stores go, you know, that's the first conversation we had.
And you, you came up with this incredible idea for how to do that,
(25:04):
you know, and it evolved from there.
But a lot of times, you know, we're starting with something so granular.
And so, you know, just a germ of an idea.
So, but that's a moment. And I think it's a really good exercise for,
for writers to think about their
books as how would you pitch it yeah what made
you want to change from being an
(25:25):
editor to become an agent i had been an editor for a very long time at a company
that had been you know was going to be sold tomorrow or maybe it'll be next
week for a long time and things are pretty brutal it you know and i was i loved
what i did i loved working with my authors, but I was pretty burned out.
And I realized one of the things that I really love to do most was present my
(25:49):
books and talk about my books. I love the editing part of it too.
And so, and I wanted the autonomy.
So I made the leap and it was scary.
And I still, every book, I'm like, oh my God, I'm never going to sell another book.
The psychology of it is very different from being an editor,
but I've found it just totally satisfies my intellectual curiosity in a way.
(26:12):
I could do anything I want. I can sell a vampire novel.
I can represent whatever I want if I want. And I love that. I love that freedom.
And I can respond to the marketplace faster than I could if I were sitting behind
a desk and answering to a lot of people making decisions above me.
(26:33):
What do you think... Yeah. Yeah.
If you're a young author, we were talking about sort of the,
it sounds like the barriers to entry are super high now.
What do you think they should be thinking about most? If you want to write a
book, you have a book idea.
What's like, should they be focused on trying to get, should they be sticking
(26:53):
to their, let's say they have a beat, should they be sticking to something on their beat?
What is it that they should be focusing on if they want to make that transition
from, let's say, being a journalist to writing a book? I think sort of developing
an expertise in an area is valuable.
You know, it's funny, I did a panel for health journalists recently in the Boston area.
(27:13):
And I was talking about one of my books called The Six.
And it's a book, it's a narrative history about Sally Ride and the five other
women astronauts who competed to become the first American woman in space.
And it's, you know, it's an incredible story of these women and how they get to NASA.
And the first thing NASA, you know, these women are badasses.
(27:34):
They beat the men on the aptitude test.
And the first thing that, you know, NASA does for them is give them a makeup kit to take into space.
And so it's just this really great, you know, sort of the right stuff for women, right? Right.
Anyway, the writer is a young woman named Lauren Grush who covers space.
She was at The Verge and now she is at Bloomberg and her parents were NASA engineers.
(27:56):
So it's just this wonderful mix of this journalist and subject matter.
They can't all be like that. And
they don't have you don't have to be that connected to something. thing.
But having an expertise in an area, having a passion for it,
or becoming an expert on a subject as a nonfiction writer is really useful.
(28:18):
I think getting your name out there attached to that subject when you're trying
to kind of get your footing is important.
So if it's an opinion piece or whatever, but I think these are conversations that...
And finding an agent who kind of has a vision, not just for a first book,
but for where this might head in general, sort of how to carve out your identity
(28:40):
as a writer, as a journalist, as a book author.
Yeah, I guess one thing I was wondering about that, too, is do you think that
relationships between authors and editors have changed a lot,
you know, in terms of like loyalty to a specific editor or house or,
you know, can you go book to book to different houses?
And how do you feel as an agent? Do you think that that's an important thing?
(29:02):
I know it used to be, you know, all those famous relationships between,
you know, well-known authors and their editors and how tight that is.
I wonder if that's still the case as much as it used to be. I think that relationship still happens.
And I think it still exists. The longevity of it.
I don't think so. But those kinds of incredibly creative partnerships between
(29:24):
editor and author do exist. They make better books.
There are editors who still do that work and do it very well.
That being said, I literally was on the phone with a publisher yesterday.
There's an editor who took a job at another house. It's a great opportunity
for him, but I had three books with him.
So now we're getting reassigned. And, you know, and that happens all the time.
(29:48):
Like, literally, it's been musical chairs of some editors moving around just
in the past couple months.
And so I think that exists. And I think that, but it's, you know,
it's those kinds of intense working relationships still exist and still matter.
And, you know, but I would never as much as, you know, when I'm selling a book,
(30:12):
I try to match editor with author, it's not always a guarantee they're going
to be there, you know, and that's just part of the part of the biz.
But it has, you know, that kind of lifelong, you know, you know,
it makes me think of like Star Lawrence Norton, who's been there forever,
and his, you know, Michael Lewis, you know, all the, you know,
all these authors that he's had forever, but but that's rare.
(30:35):
When that does happen to an author where they sell their book to an editor and
then the editor ends up leaving before it's published, do you think that that,
you know, always harms a book's prospects?
Because, you know, maybe the editor who inherits it isn't as invested.
I don't think it dramatically harms the book. I mean, a lot of it depends on
(30:56):
where it is in the process.
You know, if it's before the book's even been edited.
Maybe it's a little different. You don't have that fierce advocate.
But on the flip side of that, and this is what I would say, and I should say
this more to my clients now that I think about it.
Like, I made my career and so many other, you know, aspiring editors back in
(31:18):
the day made their career by inheriting a project and running with it, you know.
And there is this kind of area of publishing where these young editors kind
of try to work their way up.
And they are all hunger, all passion. They're going to give you everything they have.
And they're really smart. And you're going to get a completely different experience.
(31:41):
But there's going to be an energy level that I would not dismiss or discount. count.
So, you know, I think it's, you know, as with anything in this industry,
it's a case-by-case scenario, but I don't think that it's a death knell because your editor left.
You know, I think that in a lot of cases, it could be a real opportunity. That's interesting.
That is hard. I've been through that. I'm not just putting spin on it.
(32:05):
I mean, you know, I mean, look, it sucks.
It sucks when that happens, when you make this connection with someone and then
they, they leave or they get laid off or, you know, whatever it is. But it happens.
And, you know, I think you adjust accordingly. And, you know,
a lot of times you'll find that editor, your past will cross down the road. Totally.
(32:25):
Yeah. It was really sad when my editor, my first book left, but we're still
friends and she's going to be coming on the podcast soon. So that's cool.
Yeah. So thanks, Susan.
I don't know. I feel like this was great. We covered so much stuff.
Alice, do you have other questions? Or do you feel like, Susan,
there's other things we haven't asked you that you want to talk about?
(32:48):
I don't know how you feel. I think it's great you all are doing this.
I think that community among writers...
Especially in nonfiction, that's hard to find. And, you know,
you need that support group.
And I think navigating, you know, oh, my God, what does this email from my editor mean?
And being able to workshop that with like-minded, you know, sort of people who
(33:10):
share similar goals is a brilliant thing.
And it's a great way to navigate this. It is a wild woolly thing that you're embarking on.
And it's, you know, and it's something that you're going to spend several years of your life.
And these are relationships are important.
And they take up a lot of space in your head and in your heart and in your calendar.
(33:34):
And so, you know, you want to try to get the best experience out of it.
So I think it's great that you're having that you are doing this podcast for
like minded people, because I think it could be a real resource.
I think that's something I'll be scared.
Don't be scared to write a book, though. It is. And You know,
it's incredibly rewarding experience.
(33:54):
And it's funny, this panel that I was on, they, you know, some of the young
journalists sort of at the end of the word just looked deflated.
And it's not because of me.
I'm just saying it was someone else who was really negative.
But anyway, I just said, you know, if you don't, you know, like Wayne Gretzky
said, you know, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
(34:16):
Like, if you don't put yourself out there, you know, and take the risk of embarking
on this journey that is writing a book, especially a nonfiction book,
then, you know, you know, who will like, this is how stories are told.
This is how information is gained. And this is an important part of our culture.
And we need young journalists to be doing this, even though this industry is scary.
(34:39):
And it is a bit of a black box. And you know, it's, it's, it's an enigma.
But that's why having a community of people around you to talk to is really
important and really helpful. One more question.
I feel like we've talked a lot. You've met a lot of insight into the writer-editor relationship.
But what about writers and agents? Is there anything writers do that particularly annoys you?
(35:05):
Any tips for staying on your agent's inside?
Let's see. No.
It's, you know, your agent is your first line of defense.
And I absolutely love my my relationships with my clients. It brings me great joy.
I think that this job is also being a therapist, though.
(35:28):
And I always felt that I was a therapist in a lot of ways as an editor.
But being an agent, mother of God, it is really being a therapist or a mother. And so I think I.
That it's, it's what I want my clients to do is be able to come to me first,
if they have a problem they're wrestling with, you know, before they get into
(35:50):
a mess with their publisher. I mean, that's why I'm here.
And I help I can help them kind of prioritize, okay, this is a big problem.
And this is not and Julie's nodding or may or may not have texted over the weekend about this.
But anyway but i think that it
is it is a very important relationship and
(36:10):
i think if you i think you want to have an agent who you feel like you can really
talk to and really confide in and let it all hang out you know and then you
are a little more polished for your editor hopefully and those those in the
more trying times but i think you know it's also i'm i lost my train of thought.
(36:30):
But I think that, you know, there are certain things that annoy me,
you know, sort of texting me over the weekend, like, you know,
it's fine, I'll get to it. You know, it's not like I'm not working all the time.
But you know, there's certain liberties that sometimes that relationship can
be so close that people take and, you know, it's not a big deal.
But you know, there, there are little things, you know,
(36:52):
or not taking the feedback or what really Really annoying is when,
you know, something is not working and the writer is really frustrated at the
situation and they sort of feel like it's, you know,
they want to put it on the agent's lap and that's really not fair.
You know, your agent wants everything, nothing but the best for you and more,
(37:14):
you know, or else they wouldn't be working with you.
So hopefully in an ideal situation.
So I think that that can be sometimes challenging because it's emotional.
I mean, this process is brutal.
You know, going through the submissions process is really hard,
even for something that, you know, I've had books sell for months.
You know, seven figures, and it's still an emotional process.
(37:35):
It's like a whirlwind, but it's emotional, and it's, it can be bruising.
And so, you know, recognizing that your agent is in that with you,
and they're on your team, I think is, is something to keep in mind.
I think it is so complicated for, at least for me, like the learning curve is
so steep, because as a journalist, you know, you, your first,
(37:58):
like, connection is usually with your editor, You don't have an agent.
So the agent author relationship is often something really new.
And like you were saying, in terms of community, especially for nonfiction books,
I think, you know, authors tend to write themselves silently, obviously on their own.
And maybe over time, like over time, I've made book friends.
(38:20):
But you know, when I was starting with my first book, for instance,
I didn't know really any, I had one person I knew who had written a book before,
you know. And so it takes time to build that community.
And the agent is like your only person.
There isn't really a best how-to book for those of us about best practices.
(38:45):
So you are kind of learning on the job and learning as you're figuring it out.
So unfortunately, I'm sure, Susan, you get sort of the first brunt of that because
a lot of us don't know what we're doing, especially at first.
You know, that's part of the fun of it.
And it's part of an agent's job is, is not just to sell your book,
but it's to set you up for success, not just for that book for the next book.
(39:09):
And to help you be a, an author that a publishing house wants to continue to
publish and to help you navigate sort of, okay, you're being a little too precious here, right?
You know, like, they get your agent needs to tell you like it is,
and you need to be able to take that because they're only doing it to sort of
help you. you know, those kinds of things. Like, so it is, you know,
(39:29):
you're absolutely right.
And you should have an agent that you feel like you can rely on to ask the dumbest
questions or, you know, share a neuroses.
Because a lot of times what comes out of that is, yeah, maybe we should be pushing
on this, or maybe we should be asking this, or maybe we should be thinking about this way.
You know, but I think it's, that's part of what an agent does is kind of give
you that buffer a little bit with the publisher when needed,
(39:51):
because it's, you know, it is a bit of a tug of war with a publisher,
you know, you always want more than they're willing to give, right, on promotion,
on the cover, on the, you know, all of it.
Yeah, it's sort of a, it's a tug of war a little bit. And so figuring out when
to push and when not to is, you know, those are questions that.
Part of it's just instinct, but it really is hard to have that instinct if you
(40:16):
haven't done it before and you don't know the rhythms of the process and you
don't know what that editor is up against or where that publishing house is coming from,
what their perspective is and how that differs from yours. And how can we get those aligned?
I'm sure you also have to make judgment calls on how much you actually share with the author.
(40:37):
You know, I'm sure, you know, you're probably getting more specific feedback
in some cases from a publisher or whatever,
or you can infer things since you've been an editor that you may not,
you know, you have to make that judgment call on how raw to get with your authors,
depending on their style or whatever, right? Right.
As you were saying, there's a bit of a cheerleader atmosphere with books,
(40:58):
which is, in my experience, very
different from like news journalism where there's no cheerleader at all.
It's the opposite. So, you know, that whole thing is also, I think,
tricky or, you know, whatever. I'm sure you have to deal with that.
Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is is sort of where the where the author is in the process.
(41:19):
You know, are they at the sort of tender early stages or the sort of feeling
vulnerable or fragile at that moment? it and how do you, you know,
or do they want that information?
You know, it, it, it runs the gamut and a lot of it, you know,
that's why part of being an agent, and this is, you know, something that whenever
we're looking for a new agent, like it's, you got to have people skills.
(41:39):
Like you have to be able to understand human nature and, and be able to navigate that.
It's a very human process. And, you know, I have to think a lot of times about,
is this going to set this writer back five months if I tell them this right now?
Or do they need to hear this right now or else they're going to lose their book deal?
You know, this happens a lot with delivery dates when writers are late,
(42:03):
and I want to bang their head against the wall sometimes, to be honest with you.
But I also know like how hard what you're doing is.
And I know that, you know, but I can kind of navigate, okay, this publisher is fine.
It's gonna be fine here. They're not worried about it. You know,
this is fine. Or, you know, I have to kind of help figure out,
you're taking, you've got to figure out a way to get this book done by X,
(42:25):
or you're going to be exposed, like you're going to be in a position where your
book could get canceled.
And sometimes that's a hard conversation to have.
But it is trying to kind of meet them where they are, and figure out what they could take.
I made the mistake once of, and on the submission process, too, is another thing.
I made the mistake once of, I keep a submission list, and it's a spreadsheet.
(42:46):
I'm feeling very, like, Thank you.
You know, a rocket scientist, because I created spreadsheets for my submission
list when I first started.
If you knew what a Luddite I am, but I shared the spreadsheet of who had the
book. And also, you know, I would like, oh, pass.
Here's the reason, you know, I kind of log it in. This writer was like checking
it neurotically, like at night, following along, like in real time.
(43:10):
I will never do that again, ever. It was so the wrong person to do that with. And so the wrong moment.
And so the wrong part, it was just such a fail. It's one of my early agent fails.
Anyway, you know, so it is like how much information is too much information.
But also, you know, you also need that information because it will help shape
decisions that you make moving forward. Yeah.
(43:32):
I remember one of my first stories ever, I let a source like see their quotes.
And And that was also huge fail, huge time suck, really a mistake,
and I've never, ever repeated it ever again.
So I can relate to that.
Well, thank you so much. This was so informative and terrific.
Yeah, it was really great. It was really fun. Okay. Thank you so much,
(43:56):
Susan. We'll talk soon. Talk to you soon. Take care. Bye.
Hi, welcome to our newest episode.
Today we have Susan Canavan on. She is a literary agent at Waxman Literary Agency,
where she focuses on nonfiction and works closely with journalists, academics,
thought leaders, or masters of their craft to shape and sell A-list nonfiction projects and IP. Key.
(00:24):
Prior to that, she was a senior executive editor at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt
for 20 years, acquiring and publishing dozens of New York Times bestsellers.
She's a graduate of Boston College and holds an MFA in creative writing from Emerson College.
Welcome, Susan. We're so excited you could do this today. No,
(00:44):
I'm thrilled to be here. Thrilled to be here.
So we thought we would start by just talking to you a bit about the book business
and where you think things are for nonfiction books today. How's the market?
Boy, you went right for the jugular. For a nonfiction agent.
(01:08):
2023 has been a challenging year for nonfiction.
It's kind kind of been the year of the celebrity memoir as
you know between spare and most recently
britney spears but you know many many others have
you know that's been the bestseller list predominantly i
think sort of narrative non-fiction is it has been challenging and i you know
(01:31):
i really kind of have been looking at it trying to figure out i think a lot
of us in industry are trying to figure out what's going on and this is always
it's cyclical you know non-fiction is down fiction's up so So everyone wants fiction and then,
you know, and, but it changes and I think it'll come back.
I think part of what I'm feeling we're seeing is that sort of coming out of,
(01:51):
you know, the pandemic and Black Lives Matter and the Me Too movement.
And, you know, there, there was sort of a, there's been a lot of very serious,
heavy nonfiction to kind of come out of, you know, the editors were acquiring
those books. That's where people's heads were.
And I think we've kind of coming out of that and people want more escape.
You know and more storytelling and more you know
(02:13):
just living in narratives that take
them to another place so that i so i
think you know i think we'll see the pendulum swing back but it has been a tricky
time how much do trends like that actually impact non-fiction writers who are
working on a proposal let's say because it takes so many years to actually see
a project through that i think it's sometimes hard to know how to interpret
(02:36):
those trends or whether you're supposed
to respond to them somehow as a writer?
Well, that's a really great question. I mean, I think it's, you know,
it is an, it's a slow industry.
And I think our jobs, you know, trying to exist in this stratosphere is to, um.
Really figure out what people are going to want two years down the road,
(02:58):
you know, in terms of, you know, looking at trends, who can do that?
You know, I don't know, unless you have a crystal ball.
But I really think, you know, as a writer and a journalist, you know,
you have to go with your gut with something that, you know, that really grabs
you and that you really feel passionate about.
And I think, you know, it will find its place and it will find its moment.
(03:20):
I think trying to write to trends, especially with that incubation period of
a couple of years, it's really hard. It's really hard to do.
That's not to say that, you know, there are moments where, you know,
an author is sort of an expert in the subject or is covering a particular topic
and current events that is timely and, you know, can turn around and write a
(03:41):
book more quickly and respond to trends in that way.
And you see that a lot in certain categories like sports, for instance.
Politics, where journalists will, you know, kind of be in the middle of something
of a topic and be able to write a narrative that publishers can bring out quickly
and respond to those trends.
But that that presents its own challenges as well. But it's doable.
(04:04):
What does that mean that narrative nonfiction, let's say, or nonfiction in general
isn't doing as well? I mean, there are obviously publishers and editors who
that's their main focus.
So what do they do? They don't just sit on the sidelines during it.
Do you mean like the advances are lower for those kind of books right now?
(04:25):
Or you mean the sales numbers are worse and they're just, you know, I don't know.
I guess I don't know exactly what that means that the market is not.
That's a totally valid follow up. And I should have clarified.
I think when I say not working, there's all manner of ways of measuring the success of a book.
I think what I'm really saying in this case is sales are down.
(04:47):
Nonfiction sales are down. To make the nonfiction list on the New York Times
bestseller list this year was...
Not really much of a leap, you know, because sales just across the board were down.
So I think advances will follow that, you know, if nonfiction books aren't selling
like sort of, you know, I'm thinking of like narrative history or prescriptive
(05:09):
nonfiction is a different thing, because that actually is working.
And we can talk about that too, if you want. But I think that in terms of narrative
nonfiction, you know, once you sort of see the sales kind of dip and books that
maybe they paid this much money for, but they're not performing to expectation,
then you'll start to see advances kind of come down. They'll just react to the market a little bit.
That being said, editors are really buying.
(05:32):
I've been out with several projects this fall, and editors are looking for material.
There's been a lot of changes personnel-wise in the industry,
big changes at Penguin Random House, for instance, and other places.
But editors are looking to buy, and it's
just kind of figuring out what consumers want where they're
(05:53):
where readers are what about i mean one thing that
i feel like we see a lot of anxiety about right
now among non-fiction writers is
ai and people looking up their books on you know that website that do you remember
what i'm talking about yeah that lists every single book ever in print i feel
(06:16):
like yeah the website that listed the book that had been used to train AI.
And you do see sometimes in job ads, like for journalism jobs,
that they want someone who is willing to work with AI, which I think might contribute
to this kind of anxious atmosphere.
But do you think that this is authentically something to worry about for people like that?
(06:40):
You mean that publishers are to AI-generated books instead of real authors?
I think that I mean, you know, When sci-fi starts to enter your daily life,
you know, we all want to run for the hills.
And, you know, it happened with the internet, you know, I mean, it's, I,
but I don't, I think that, that it's a really tricky question,
(07:03):
but I think that publishers are very mindful of this and very wary of it and
firmly believe in the value and importance of having a writer,
are, you know, that craft and that creation and that copyright and all of that,
you know, is something that is very integral to the ethos of the business.
(07:26):
I'm not going to lie. I'm not really an expert on the AI stuff.
And I don't, you know, we're all sort of floundering and trying to figure out what it means.
We're, you know, trying to put clauses in our contracts to protect our clients against that.
And, you know, this language is literally being discussed with contracts,
heads of contracts departments at all the big five right now.
(07:46):
Like, we're all trying to figure it out. It reminds me a lot of when eBooks
came about, we thought books were going to be dead.
It's a very similar kind of, you know, earth shaking moment happened and in
the music industry, too.
And I think that, but this feels particularly scary.
But I think that there's a lot of energy around ensuring the integrity of the business.
(08:08):
That being said, will there be publishers who will use AI to generate books
that serve a function and a purpose?
Maybe, but I don't know. I wonder, just in terms of using AI for research,
let's say, or something, if we're going to have to start like crediting AI in
our acknowledgements or, you know, I think like I kind of see it from a writer's
(08:31):
perspective as like a super Google.
You know, or seeing if I'm covering all my bases or just kind of out of curiosity
what it says, you know, I don't know.
But in terms of like feeling like I'm going to be replaced by AI,
that does seem a bit of a jump, you know, because so much of the whole point of writing
our type you know non-fiction books is typically
(08:54):
taking a lot of material and synthesizing it in
unique ways like what i'll do with material will
be really different than what you do alice or or someone
else right so yeah it seems like how
can you you know ai might have its own
version but it wouldn't be what i would write you know
i guess although the whole idea is that they copy the
(09:15):
style of different writers but it seems like i
don't know let's not forget that in the non-fiction space
too it's a lot of what
you know and i can i can only speak to that well
i can speak to this as an agent but also as a former editor like a lot of what
you're investing in is the author and who they are and their perspective and
(09:37):
what they bring to this topic that's different from what someone else might
bring and that is a major piece of how we consider projects.
Books are successful and some are not. And that cannot be replicated by AI.
And that is one of the chief sort of marks that when I'm putting together a
(09:58):
project, it's who is the author?
What do they bring to this? Why is it different? And why is it desirable?
Why is that going to be a better book than if someone else did it?
It's a soup that we figure out what the ingredients are And someone has to be
sort of stirring the soup in a way that's knowledgeable.
(10:20):
One thing I'm curious about is I was reading a newsletter this morning,
actually, on like the bestseller list, and they were talking about how it's
sort of baked in that when a publisher buys a book,
they've sort of decided if they think it's the kind of book that's going to
hit the list and they, you know, gear their pitches and their publicity and
(10:41):
all of that sort of with that in mind.
So if, you know, you have a celebrity memoir, we were talking about,
you know, this is the year of the celebrity memoir,
you know, you're already coming, you know, with your publicity plan in hand
and you're coming to the pitch with all of that, you know, versus,
you know, a journalist who may not be as well known, who doesn't get all that dog and pony show.
Know, if if that's the case, I wonder, how hard is it to break through that
(11:06):
if you don't already have that kind of, you know, power behind you when you
come into a publishing house, you know, do they look at books fresh?
Have they already made their decisions when they do, you know,
when they when they offer you the advance when they give you the deal,
they've kind of decided where you are on their priority list?
(11:26):
I don't know. I'm wondering how, how, you know, because Because you have a perspective,
which is so unusual as both an agent and being inside a publishing house.
I'm curious what you think. And maybe if that's changed.
Oh, it absolutely has changed. It is, you know.
Platform, an author who can reach their readers impactfully.
(11:51):
It's not just how many followers you have. It's how you use them.
And are you engaged? And can you reach them?
That absolutely plays into advanced levels. Absolutely.
I mean, it sort of changes kind of the way they even consider a project.
That being said, there's nothing a publisher loves more than a sleeper,
(12:11):
than someone one who defies expectation than someone who, you know,
they might believe in a project, think it has certain hooks.
And if the author comes in and really hustles and figures out how to be their
best advocate, and those sales can build and build and build,
you know, publishers love that stuff.
But it does factor. I mean, I think it's, you can't deny it's going to factor into advanced levels.
(12:35):
You know, a lot of times a publisher will take on something they love just,
just sort of in spite of an author's platform or their track record is another thing.
But that's absolutely changed. It's tricky.
I had launched an editor, Viking, a couple of weeks ago, and we were talking
about the nonfiction and what to do about it.
(12:55):
And she said, that's really what they're looking for is these authors who not
only have the following,
but they have the ability and the sort of engine to convert that into sales
and to proselytize, you know, across platforms in a way that, you know, it's like,
you know, anymore to be an author, you have to be, it's like running your own business.
(13:16):
You have to be a CEO. When did you see that changing?
Was there ever a time when the publisher would just take on a project because
they loved it and then do all the work of, you know, building up the author's brand themselves?
Yeah. I mean, I think with social media, it really changed.
You know, if I had to, if I had to pin it to sort of one thing, but it's just changed.
(13:40):
There's not the traditional route of,
Oh, if you get a New York Times book review and you get NPR,
you're golden, you know, that like because people get their information in so
many different places and in so many different ways. Now it's you know,
we're not in a monoculture anymore.
So I think that's when it really when it really changed. Yeah,
I mean, we're going to do probably a future episode about hiring your own publicist
(14:03):
and, you know, exactly what you were talking about, have to be your own advocate.
But I guess I, you know, I don't know if you feel this way, Alice,
but I always feel like as a writer, you know, what happens behind the in the
publishing house always feels like so like a black box of mysteriousness.
And it's really hard, right?
(14:23):
You know, like, what is actually what are the discussions going on?
So I guess what I was trying to ask, and maybe, like, is it ever movable?
Like, are editors ever, maybe they come in, they're excited about a book,
but then, you know, they decide, wow, you know, we thought it would be this
way and this level, but now we're really psyched about it.
(14:46):
That we want to push it more or something like that on their own.
Is there any maneuverability that way? Or is it like everyone's so risk averse
at this point that it's really like they put you in your bucket and that's where
you are and it just gets treated that way from then on? Do you know what I mean?
I don't maybe like, is there anything we can do as authors aside from building
our platform, which we already might have coming into it?
(15:08):
Is there any, like maybe we write an amazing book or I don't know, something happens.
Or I guess if there's like a news event that That would obviously maybe change
something if it's if it's a newsy type book, if there's some additional relevance
or something, you know, a star dies and it's a biography on a star or something like that.
But I mean, a publisher, you know, anyone in this business will tell you we
(15:30):
can look at pie charts and spreadsheets till we're blue in the face. But it's a crapshoot.
I mean, it's a total crapshoot. And there are safe bets, but even the safest bets are not.
You know, foolproof. And so it's a very unusual, quirky business in that way.
And it always has been. And I think it always will be because every book is
(15:51):
different. Every book has its own life trajectory.
And I think, you know, I mean, I'll give you an example.
I remember when I was at Houghton Mifflin, and we were publishing a book called
Fly Girls, and it was by Keith O'Brien.
And, you know, this was sort of in very early on in this kind of trend of girl,
but they were they were called the girl books. It's kind of started with code girls.
(16:13):
And then there was alpha girl, you know, they're all these anyway.
So this author, Keith O'Brien was writing this book flag.
And, you know, people really loved the book. But I mean, I will be honest with
you, the publicist is like, I've got this guy,
this white male author, and I've got to book him for events or,
you know, for publicity for this book about women, you know,
(16:35):
and it was, everyone was scratching their heads. You know, these were the conversations we were having.
And Keith went out and hustled. He did speaking of it after speaking of it.
He proselytized about that book. It was incredible.
And it was just a really great book. It got incredible reviews.
It didn't matter. You know, none of that mattered because people just fell in
(16:55):
love with the book. And the book sold very well.
And it, you know, it defied all our expectations.
And, you know, it was a challenge, but he really drove that.
He was the engine. And he just kept pushing and kept pushing and kept pushing.
Does that help? Yeah. I'm curious, what do you think you, like,
having worked inside Houghton Mifflin and now as an agent, like,
(17:17):
what perspective does that give you?
Do you think that maybe other agents don't have or, you know,
like, what does that mean in terms of your job as an agent?
Well, you know, I found it, you know, a lot of editors try to become agents and,
find it challenging. I think that what I've found is that I feel like I know
(17:38):
what's going on on the other side.
I know the challenges that an editor is up against when they're trying to acquire
a book. And acquiring a book is not easy.
You have to really stick your neck out there. You really have to believe in
something. You have to make a case for why it's going to work.
You know, you have to come up with evidence. You have to be passionate about
it, have a vision for it. But it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of energy.
(18:01):
And if it doesn't work, you know, it's on you, you know, you have to stick your
neck out for something. So it's very easy for editors to say no.
It's very easy for them to find one thing that, you know, oh,
okay, you know, this, this is a thing that needs to be addressed.
And I found the editors are much more risk averse than they used to be.
(18:23):
They used to love something and we'll just figure it out. We'll find a way around
that problem. But now it's the slightest little thing.
So I, I try to make my proposals Teflon, as I say to my clients,
like, so and so in marketing might say this, because, you know,
this is how they react to these kinds of things,
you know, or, you know, I was just working on a proposal a couple of days ago.
(18:44):
And it's, you know, it's kind of this fun dishy narrative about a media entity.
And there's a joke in it that if you don't really understand the joke,
it could be misconstrued.
And so I'm like, just take it out. like because some marketing
director is going to read this on the train in two minutes before
the meeting they might see that one little thing and
if they don't have time to process the context of it that your project could
(19:07):
be dead like it's you know and i not to say that they're not reading these things
carefully but you know there are things that you know you have to think about
like people are busy you have to get to the point in a proposal and you have to really think about
how much is too much and how much is too little.
So there are things like that. It also helps, I think...
(19:30):
To have a perspective, and Julie, you know this well, but when things like,
you know, you're talking about covers, or you're talking about, you know, pub dates,
or, you know, I'm kind of well-versed in the, in sort of the conversation that's
happening around the editor on that side of the desk and the pressures that,
you know, they're kind of playing middleman a little bit.
So I can, I can kind of read through the lines of, of the speak that they might
(19:53):
be giving an author that is always going to be in sort of cheerleader mode, right?
Not all, you know, everything's sort sort of sugar-coated a little bit.
Not really, but somewhat.
Does that help? And how often are you surprised by something that you really
expected to do well, just not selling or the other way around?
(20:14):
Do you feel like you can usually predict how a proposal is going to fare?
How a proposal is going to fare? Yeah. Yeah. How a book is going to work?
That's harder. That's harder because for me as an agent,
you know and for a publisher too you're less in
control you're less in control of what's going to happen in the news
cycle that week that it's published or you know yeah there's
(20:36):
so many factors that go into that but you know in non-fiction i mean if fiction
is a different beast and i i'm not person to talk to about that but in non-fiction
you know there are certain kind of marks that you know a project can hit and
if if that kind of comes together in a way I can usually predict.
I'm usually, I'm pretty good. My clients will often ask me, all right,
(20:58):
so how much do you think this will go for?
And I will never say, but I always have the figure in my head.
I would never tell them because then if I don't get that money,
you know, that's not good for me.
But I do have an idea and I'm usually pretty close, you know,
but there are some projects where, you know, you think it has everything going
(21:18):
for it and you just, you just don't, and it, and it does,
but you just might not find the right editor at the right moment,
you know, who's in a place, you know, they're oftentimes it's an editor.
Maybe published a book in that category two years ago and it tanked and they won't go near it.
They might go near it in two years, two years, you know, they need more time
(21:40):
to heal or whatever it is, or, you know, it's just so many different random,
or they, you know, I mean, this happens.
Sometimes you go out with a proposal and you'll send it to an editor and maybe
their kid was sick that week or they're dealing with family stuff or they just
are buried in a crash edit and they just don't have time to...
(22:02):
Consider it. Timing. I mean, that happens too.
So many different factors go into it. But I generally know with a proposal, this has the goods.
My marker is when I sit down to write a pitch letter for a book.
If it writes itself, if I don't have to agonize over it, I'm like, okay, I'm good.
If I can do the pitch in my head and I don't have to actually think about,
(22:25):
okay, how should I say this?
What order should I put the... How should I prioritize the points insights about
this book that I usually have a good feeling about it.
Do you think that's a good, I mean, you know, for nonfiction writers,
often, I mean, I wonder about those pitch letters.
I wonder if that's something that we should like practice or something,
have some kind of, you know what I mean?
To know like, how would an agent pitch this book, you know, to know if it has
(22:48):
that hook or whatever, when you're thinking about ideas. I think that's a really good idea, Julie.
I may actually make my clients do that. Here, write your pitch letter,
but you're giving me homework, more homework for them.
But no, No, I think, honestly, I'm in the process of, I have a submission out
now and I have an auction on Friday and we've been doing meetings.
And this is an entity who is media trained, is on national TV,
(23:10):
like seven days a week, maybe not that many, but anyway.
And the first meeting was a little deer in headlights. And I was a little surprised
and I realized that this person should have, you know, and I gave them a heads
up. I'm like, you need to like, be able to talk about your book and,
you know, like, you need to know your elevator pitch.
You know, that's a question that gets asked in every one of those meetings.
(23:32):
But I think that this person hadn't quite thought, hadn't quite said that aloud
and was back on their heels a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, that is the hardest thing for me to get that, like,
two-line elevator pitch or something, you know, of a whole big nonfiction book.
I don't know. I feel like I just got it for my current book,
which is already finished being written.
So I'm, like, way behind on that. But yeah, I think a pitch letter is where
(23:57):
you have to really kind of crystallize what is this book and why does it matter?
And I found when I was an editor and, you know, when you're an editor,
you know, you receive these things and you have an idea.
You might have written a memo to your acquisitions committee that might sit
in your files for two years. And then the book comes, gets delivered.
And then you're OK, here's your chance to present this book to your sales team.
(24:23):
The thing I would always go to first is the agent's cover letter, because that's it.
It's all there, usually. And it might have changed. And a lot of it,
you might be in a different place than you were when you sold it.
But there's a lot of sort of that sense of what is this project.
And I will say too, as an agent, the difference I found between being an editor
(24:44):
and as an agent is there's no one's pitch letter to look at.
You have to figure that out as an agent from scratch.
And oftentimes, it's, you know, it's like Julie, like you and I,
you know, department stores go, you know, that's the first conversation we had.
And you, you came up with this incredible idea for how to do that,
(25:04):
you know, and it evolved from there.
But a lot of times, you know, we're starting with something so granular.
And so, you know, just a germ of an idea.
So, but that's a moment. And I think it's a really good exercise for,
for writers to think about their
books as how would you pitch it yeah what made
you want to change from being an
(25:25):
editor to become an agent i had been an editor for a very long time at a company
that had been you know was going to be sold tomorrow or maybe it'll be next
week for a long time and things are pretty brutal it you know and i was i loved
what i did i loved working with my authors, but I was pretty burned out.
And I realized one of the things that I really love to do most was present my
(25:49):
books and talk about my books. I love the editing part of it too.
And so, and I wanted the autonomy.
So I made the leap and it was scary.
And I still, every book, I'm like, oh my God, I'm never going to sell another book.
The psychology of it is very different from being an editor,
but I've found it just totally satisfies my intellectual curiosity in a way.
(26:12):
I could do anything I want. I can sell a vampire novel.
I can represent whatever I want if I want. And I love that. I love that freedom.
And I can respond to the marketplace faster than I could if I were sitting behind
a desk and answering to a lot of people making decisions above me.
(26:33):
What do you think... Yeah. Yeah.
If you're a young author, we were talking about sort of the,
it sounds like the barriers to entry are super high now.
What do you think they should be thinking about most? If you want to write a
book, you have a book idea.
What's like, should they be focused on trying to get, should they be sticking
(26:53):
to their, let's say they have a beat, should they be sticking to something on their beat?
What is it that they should be focusing on if they want to make that transition
from, let's say, being a journalist to writing a book? I think sort of developing
an expertise in an area is valuable.
You know, it's funny, I did a panel for health journalists recently in the Boston area.
(27:13):
And I was talking about one of my books called The Six.
And it's a book, it's a narrative history about Sally Ride and the five other
women astronauts who competed to become the first American woman in space.
And it's, you know, it's an incredible story of these women and how they get to NASA.
And the first thing NASA, you know, these women are badasses.
(27:34):
They beat the men on the aptitude test.
And the first thing that, you know, NASA does for them is give them a makeup kit to take into space.
And so it's just this really great, you know, sort of the right stuff for women, right? Right.
Anyway, the writer is a young woman named Lauren Grush who covers space.
She was at The Verge and now she is at Bloomberg and her parents were NASA engineers.
(27:56):
So it's just this wonderful mix of this journalist and subject matter.
They can't all be like that. And
they don't have you don't have to be that connected to something. thing.
But having an expertise in an area, having a passion for it,
or becoming an expert on a subject as a nonfiction writer is really useful.
(28:18):
I think getting your name out there attached to that subject when you're trying
to kind of get your footing is important.
So if it's an opinion piece or whatever, but I think these are conversations that...
And finding an agent who kind of has a vision, not just for a first book,
but for where this might head in general, sort of how to carve out your identity
(28:40):
as a writer, as a journalist, as a book author.
Yeah, I guess one thing I was wondering about that, too, is do you think that
relationships between authors and editors have changed a lot,
you know, in terms of like loyalty to a specific editor or house or,
you know, can you go book to book to different houses?
And how do you feel as an agent? Do you think that that's an important thing?
(29:02):
I know it used to be, you know, all those famous relationships between,
you know, well-known authors and their editors and how tight that is.
I wonder if that's still the case as much as it used to be. I think that relationship still happens.
And I think it still exists. The longevity of it.
I don't think so. But those kinds of incredibly creative partnerships between
(29:24):
editor and author do exist. They make better books.
There are editors who still do that work and do it very well.
That being said, I literally was on the phone with a publisher yesterday.
There's an editor who took a job at another house. It's a great opportunity
for him, but I had three books with him.
So now we're getting reassigned. And, you know, and that happens all the time.
(29:48):
Like, literally, it's been musical chairs of some editors moving around just
in the past couple months.
And so I think that exists. And I think that, but it's, you know,
it's those kinds of intense working relationships still exist and still matter.
And, you know, but I would never as much as, you know, when I'm selling a book,
(30:12):
I try to match editor with author, it's not always a guarantee they're going
to be there, you know, and that's just part of the part of the biz.
But it has, you know, that kind of lifelong, you know, you know,
it makes me think of like Star Lawrence Norton, who's been there forever,
and his, you know, Michael Lewis, you know, all the, you know,
all these authors that he's had forever, but but that's rare.
(30:35):
When that does happen to an author where they sell their book to an editor and
then the editor ends up leaving before it's published, do you think that that,
you know, always harms a book's prospects?
Because, you know, maybe the editor who inherits it isn't as invested.
I don't think it dramatically harms the book. I mean, a lot of it depends on
(30:56):
where it is in the process.
You know, if it's before the book's even been edited.
Maybe it's a little different. You don't have that fierce advocate.
But on the flip side of that, and this is what I would say, and I should say
this more to my clients now that I think about it.
Like, I made my career and so many other, you know, aspiring editors back in
(31:18):
the day made their career by inheriting a project and running with it, you know.
And there is this kind of area of publishing where these young editors kind
of try to work their way up.
And they are all hunger, all passion. They're going to give you everything they have.
And they're really smart. And you're going to get a completely different experience.
(31:41):
But there's going to be an energy level that I would not dismiss or discount. count.
So, you know, I think it's, you know, as with anything in this industry,
it's a case-by-case scenario, but I don't think that it's a death knell because your editor left.
You know, I think that in a lot of cases, it could be a real opportunity. That's interesting.
That is hard. I've been through that. I'm not just putting spin on it.
(32:05):
I mean, you know, I mean, look, it sucks.
It sucks when that happens, when you make this connection with someone and then
they, they leave or they get laid off or, you know, whatever it is. But it happens.
And, you know, I think you adjust accordingly. And, you know,
a lot of times you'll find that editor, your past will cross down the road. Totally.
(32:25):
Yeah. It was really sad when my editor, my first book left, but we're still
friends and she's going to be coming on the podcast soon. So that's cool.
Yeah. So thanks, Susan.
I don't know. I feel like this was great. We covered so much stuff.
Alice, do you have other questions? Or do you feel like, Susan,
there's other things we haven't asked you that you want to talk about?
(32:48):
I don't know how you feel. I think it's great you all are doing this.
I think that community among writers...
Especially in nonfiction, that's hard to find. And, you know,
you need that support group.
And I think navigating, you know, oh, my God, what does this email from my editor mean?
And being able to workshop that with like-minded, you know, sort of people who
(33:10):
share similar goals is a brilliant thing.
And it's a great way to navigate this. It is a wild woolly thing that you're embarking on.
And it's, you know, and it's something that you're going to spend several years of your life.
And these are relationships are important.
And they take up a lot of space in your head and in your heart and in your calendar.
(33:34):
And so, you know, you want to try to get the best experience out of it.
So I think it's great that you're having that you are doing this podcast for
like minded people, because I think it could be a real resource.
I think that's something I'll be scared.
Don't be scared to write a book, though. It is. And You know,
it's incredibly rewarding experience.
(33:54):
And it's funny, this panel that I was on, they, you know, some of the young
journalists sort of at the end of the word just looked deflated.
And it's not because of me.
I'm just saying it was someone else who was really negative.
But anyway, I just said, you know, if you don't, you know, like Wayne Gretzky
said, you know, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
(34:16):
Like, if you don't put yourself out there, you know, and take the risk of embarking
on this journey that is writing a book, especially a nonfiction book,
then, you know, you know, who will like, this is how stories are told.
This is how information is gained. And this is an important part of our culture.
And we need young journalists to be doing this, even though this industry is scary.
(34:39):
And it is a bit of a black box. And you know, it's, it's, it's an enigma.
But that's why having a community of people around you to talk to is really
important and really helpful. One more question.
I feel like we've talked a lot. You've met a lot of insight into the writer-editor relationship.
But what about writers and agents? Is there anything writers do that particularly annoys you?
(35:05):
Any tips for staying on your agent's inside?
Let's see. No.
It's, you know, your agent is your first line of defense.
And I absolutely love my my relationships with my clients. It brings me great joy.
I think that this job is also being a therapist, though.
(35:28):
And I always felt that I was a therapist in a lot of ways as an editor.
But being an agent, mother of God, it is really being a therapist or a mother. And so I think I.
That it's, it's what I want my clients to do is be able to come to me first,
if they have a problem they're wrestling with, you know, before they get into
(35:50):
a mess with their publisher. I mean, that's why I'm here.
And I help I can help them kind of prioritize, okay, this is a big problem.
And this is not and Julie's nodding or may or may not have texted over the weekend about this.
But anyway but i think that it
is it is a very important relationship and
(36:10):
i think if you i think you want to have an agent who you feel like you can really
talk to and really confide in and let it all hang out you know and then you
are a little more polished for your editor hopefully and those those in the
more trying times but i think you know it's also i'm i lost my train of thought.
(36:30):
But I think that, you know, there are certain things that annoy me,
you know, sort of texting me over the weekend, like, you know,
it's fine, I'll get to it. You know, it's not like I'm not working all the time.
But you know, there's certain liberties that sometimes that relationship can
be so close that people take and, you know, it's not a big deal.
But you know, there, there are little things, you know,
(36:52):
or not taking the feedback or what really Really annoying is when,
you know, something is not working and the writer is really frustrated at the
situation and they sort of feel like it's, you know,
they want to put it on the agent's lap and that's really not fair.
You know, your agent wants everything, nothing but the best for you and more,
(37:14):
you know, or else they wouldn't be working with you.
So hopefully in an ideal situation.
So I think that that can be sometimes challenging because it's emotional.
I mean, this process is brutal.
You know, going through the submissions process is really hard,
even for something that, you know, I've had books sell for months.
You know, seven figures, and it's still an emotional process.
(37:35):
It's like a whirlwind, but it's emotional, and it's, it can be bruising.
And so, you know, recognizing that your agent is in that with you,
and they're on your team, I think is, is something to keep in mind.
I think it is so complicated for, at least for me, like the learning curve is
so steep, because as a journalist, you know, you, your first,
(37:58):
like, connection is usually with your editor, You don't have an agent.
So the agent author relationship is often something really new.
And like you were saying, in terms of community, especially for nonfiction books,
I think, you know, authors tend to write themselves silently, obviously on their own.
And maybe over time, like over time, I've made book friends.
(38:20):
But you know, when I was starting with my first book, for instance,
I didn't know really any, I had one person I knew who had written a book before,
you know. And so it takes time to build that community.
And the agent is like your only person.
There isn't really a best how-to book for those of us about best practices.
(38:45):
So you are kind of learning on the job and learning as you're figuring it out.
So unfortunately, I'm sure, Susan, you get sort of the first brunt of that because
a lot of us don't know what we're doing, especially at first.
You know, that's part of the fun of it.
And it's part of an agent's job is, is not just to sell your book,
but it's to set you up for success, not just for that book for the next book.
(39:09):
And to help you be a, an author that a publishing house wants to continue to
publish and to help you navigate sort of, okay, you're being a little too precious here, right?
You know, like, they get your agent needs to tell you like it is,
and you need to be able to take that because they're only doing it to sort of
help you. you know, those kinds of things. Like, so it is, you know,
(39:29):
you're absolutely right.
And you should have an agent that you feel like you can rely on to ask the dumbest
questions or, you know, share a neuroses.
Because a lot of times what comes out of that is, yeah, maybe we should be pushing
on this, or maybe we should be asking this, or maybe we should be thinking about this way.
You know, but I think it's, that's part of what an agent does is kind of give
you that buffer a little bit with the publisher when needed,
(39:51):
because it's, you know, it is a bit of a tug of war with a publisher,
you know, you always want more than they're willing to give, right, on promotion,
on the cover, on the, you know, all of it.
Yeah, it's sort of a, it's a tug of war a little bit. And so figuring out when
to push and when not to is, you know, those are questions that.
Part of it's just instinct, but it really is hard to have that instinct if you
(40:16):
haven't done it before and you don't know the rhythms of the process and you
don't know what that editor is up against or where that publishing house is coming from,
what their perspective is and how that differs from yours. And how can we get those aligned?
I'm sure you also have to make judgment calls on how much you actually share with the author.
(40:37):
You know, I'm sure, you know, you're probably getting more specific feedback
in some cases from a publisher or whatever,
or you can infer things since you've been an editor that you may not,
you know, you have to make that judgment call on how raw to get with your authors,
depending on their style or whatever, right? Right.
As you were saying, there's a bit of a cheerleader atmosphere with books,
(40:58):
which is, in my experience, very
different from like news journalism where there's no cheerleader at all.
It's the opposite. So, you know, that whole thing is also, I think,
tricky or, you know, whatever. I'm sure you have to deal with that.
Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is is sort of where the where the author is in the process.
(41:19):
You know, are they at the sort of tender early stages or the sort of feeling
vulnerable or fragile at that moment? it and how do you, you know,
or do they want that information?
You know, it, it, it runs the gamut and a lot of it, you know,
that's why part of being an agent, and this is, you know, something that whenever
we're looking for a new agent, like it's, you got to have people skills.
(41:39):
Like you have to be able to understand human nature and, and be able to navigate that.
It's a very human process. And, you know, I have to think a lot of times about,
is this going to set this writer back five months if I tell them this right now?
Or do they need to hear this right now or else they're going to lose their book deal?
You know, this happens a lot with delivery dates when writers are late,
(42:03):
and I want to bang their head against the wall sometimes, to be honest with you.
But I also know like how hard what you're doing is.
And I know that, you know, but I can kind of navigate, okay, this publisher is fine.
It's gonna be fine here. They're not worried about it. You know,
this is fine. Or, you know, I have to kind of help figure out,
you're taking, you've got to figure out a way to get this book done by X,
(42:25):
or you're going to be exposed, like you're going to be in a position where your
book could get canceled.
And sometimes that's a hard conversation to have.
But it is trying to kind of meet them where they are, and figure out what they could take.
I made the mistake once of, and on the submission process, too, is another thing.
I made the mistake once of, I keep a submission list, and it's a spreadsheet.
(42:46):
I'm feeling very, like, Thank you.
You know, a rocket scientist, because I created spreadsheets for my submission
list when I first started.
If you knew what a Luddite I am, but I shared the spreadsheet of who had the
book. And also, you know, I would like, oh, pass.
Here's the reason, you know, I kind of log it in. This writer was like checking
it neurotically, like at night, following along, like in real time.
(43:10):
I will never do that again, ever. It was so the wrong person to do that with. And so the wrong moment.
And so the wrong part, it was just such a fail. It's one of my early agent fails.
Anyway, you know, so it is like how much information is too much information.
But also, you know, you also need that information because it will help shape
decisions that you make moving forward. Yeah.
(43:32):
I remember one of my first stories ever, I let a source like see their quotes.
And And that was also huge fail, huge time suck, really a mistake,
and I've never, ever repeated it ever again.
So I can relate to that.
Well, thank you so much. This was so informative and terrific.
Yeah, it was really great. It was really fun. Okay. Thank you so much,
(43:56):
Susan. We'll talk soon. Talk to you soon. Take care. Bye.
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