February 22, 2025 • 29 mins
Gloria Kolb, the brilliant CEO and co-founder of Elida, joins us to chat about her groundbreaking work in women's health, specifically tackling incontinence with her innovative Elitone device. Her personal journey with incontinence spurred her to create a solution that’s not just effective but also non-intrusive, breaking the mold of traditional treatments that often leave women feeling sidelined. We dive deep into the unique challenges female founders face in the notoriously male-dominated medical device industry, especially when it comes to securing funding and societal support. Gloria sheds light on the staggering statistics that show only a fraction of healthcare funding goes towards women's health innovations, and how this impacts early treatment options. With a dash of humor and a whole lot of heart, we explore the importance of open conversations about pelvic floor health and the mission to provide accessible solutions for all women, especially those in underserved communities.
Gloria Kolb's journey to creating Elida is nothing short of inspiring. As a biomedical engineer and a mother of three, she found herself grappling with incontinence after childbirth—something that many women face but often feel too embarrassed to discuss. Gloria shares her personal story of struggle and resilience, which led her to develop the Elitone device, a groundbreaking solution that offers a non-intrusive way to improve pelvic floor health. This conversation dives deep into the challenges faced by female founders in the medical device industry, where funding disparities are stark. Did you know that only 2% of venture capital goes to female founders? Gloria sheds light on the uphill battle for funding and the societal stigma surrounding women’s health issues, emphasizing the need for more awareness and support in this area. The episode also addresses the broader implications of incontinence on women’s lives, from social interactions to mental health, highlighting the importance of early treatment and open conversations about these taboo topics. Through her work, Gloria is not only changing lives but also paving the way for a future where women’s health is prioritized and normalized in society.
Takeaways:
- Gloria Kolb's personal battle with incontinence drove her to create Elitone, a groundbreaking external pelvic floor health device.
- Female founders face a daunting funding landscape, with only 2% of venture capital directed towards women's health innovations.
- Awareness is key; many women suffer in silence for years due to societal stigma surrounding incontinence and pelvic floor health.
- The healthcare system often prioritizes pads over effective treatments, perpetuating a cycle of dependency and embarrassment for women.
- Elitone's approach allows women to regain control of their pelvic health without invasive procedures, promoting early treatment and preventative care.
- Gloria emphasizes the importance of normalizing conversations around women's health issues, encouraging openness and support among communities.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
How I.
Ally, this is Lucinda Koza,and I am here with Marilyn Cross
Coleman, my guest for today.
Hi, Marilyn.
Hi, Lucinda.
Thank you for having me on.
Of course.
Thank you for being here.
If you don't mind, would youintroduce yourself and give a bit
(00:23):
of a backstory?
Sure, sure.
Marilyn Cross Coleman, likeyou said, I'm a perinatal mental
health treatment specialist atPMHC and an lcsw licensed clinical
social worker.
I've been a therapist for.
I'm aging myself, but almost30 years and started perinatal mental
(00:47):
health after the birth of myown son, who is now 20, during which
I had a very traumatic birth experience.
He ended up in the nicu and Iended up with a diagnosis of postpartum
depression.
So after that experience andall that I went through, I decided
(01:08):
to specialize in perinatalmental health.
And it's been an amazing experience.
I recently opened a privatepractice called Shameless Mama Wellness,
where I practice telehealth inthe state of California.
Wow.
So it's so interesting because we.
(01:29):
I actually published twointerviews with you, which is a first
for me.
So it was so interesting tosee to.
To have your personalexperience first and then also see
you speak as a.
(01:50):
As an expert.
What was that like?
We all come to our variousfields for a reason, and I think
my own experience has given meso much passion in the field.
So it's very satisfying to beable to treat all kinds of postpartum
issues and especiallypostpartum trauma.
(02:12):
I specialize in treating birth trauma.
It is so satisfying to seewomen heal in the.
In therapy, we call that posttraumatic growth, where you take
a traumatic experience and youtake from it what you can and you
grow as a result.
And for therapists, a lot ofthat is helping others through some
of the challenges that wefaced ourselves.
(02:34):
And it's a very satisfyingexperience to be able to do that.
Yeah, I definitely had atraumatic birth experience with my
twins.
They're great.
And they're now and they're 19months, but they spent almost three
(02:57):
months in the NICU.
That's devastating.
That's devastating.
How did you get through that?
I was.
I don't know.
Although it's interesting, Iknow that there is work that I still
(03:19):
need to do and healing that Istill need to do.
Because you hit.
You have to hit the ground running.
Even though they were in theNICU immediately, I was a mother
and I was going through those changes.
It's.
How can you process thechanges of becoming a mother in one
(03:45):
instant, but also it being Traumatic.
Absolutely.
It is so hard because we also,the societal expectation is we hit
the ground running.
You're a mom, you have to takecare of your kids.
And now especially the kidsare in the nicu, they need you even
more.
And we're still dealing withthe trauma psychologically, the trauma
(04:07):
to our body.
And it's so hard to createthat balance.
What do I.
How much energy do I retainfor myself and my own healing and
how much do I give?
And it's so hard because whatwe are told is we give and we give
and there is nothing else left.
And part of it, I think, is asa society, we need to redefine self
(04:30):
care, especially for mothers.
Self care is essential for theentire family.
If mom has nothing to give,then nobody is receiving in the entire
family.
So we really have toreconceptualize that and we have
to focus on that self care.
And it's so hard as a mom,especially when your baby's need
(04:52):
so much from you.
So I'm so sorry you had to gothrough that.
And I know you said they're 19months and it seems like a long time
ago, but it wasn't.
You'll be healing from thatfor a really long time.
Yeah.
And I appreciate you sayingthat because, yeah, like there, there's
(05:15):
no way I would get over thatexperience, obviously.
But like you said, societyjust expects bounce back.
Like how quickly can youbounce back?
And it's just not realistic.
(05:36):
And it's harmful.
Yeah, it's absolutely harmful.
And having a child in thenicu, I think the devastation of
that distance from your child,it was beyond words.
I can't even really put thatinto words for someone who hadn't
felt that separation rightafter birth when you were supposed
to be skin to skin, you weresupposed to be fully connected with
(05:58):
your child, to have him in aseparate place, it was heartbreaking
and so painful.
And again, it's hard to putinto words for someone who hasn't
felt how hard that is.
Yes.
I feel like you're speakinglike my brain because that's exactly
(06:22):
what I felt.
It's exactly how I felt.
And there was shame.
And just like you said, I wascompletely unprepared to feel that
way.
And it was overwhelming.
I felt like it was my faultthat I couldn't keep them inside
(06:46):
longer.
And that's the place we alwaysgo as moms.
What could I have done?
And I think part of that is anattempt to control.
Right.
If I know if there's somethingthat I can do, I can change my behavior,
therefore, I will prevent itfrom happening again.
So it's really the illusion of control.
And at the same time, we arepunishing ourselves and we're feeling
(07:07):
this pain and the shame thatis so difficult to bear.
But that is the first place wego to.
My son in utero was diagnosed with.
He was found to have one kidney.
And they didn't know why heonly had one kidney.
And so they.
We had to do a lot of testingto find out what was wrong and what
(07:29):
was creating it.
But the first thing that Ithought was, what have I done?
What did I do?
What did I not eat?
Oh, I drank that beer before Iknew I was pregnant.
What did I.
And just searching my pastbehavior and everything to find a
way to make that somethingthat I had done.
And I remember that the painis just like a knife in your chest.
(07:54):
The shame of the.
And the guilt and trying todetermine what you have done to create
this situation for which yourchild is now suffering.
And that feels almost like auniversal maternal response.
It does.
And shame, actually, I think,is quite possibly the most insidious
(08:24):
thing that one can feel.
You are absolutely correct.
It is.
And it.
It will impact every moleculeof our being.
Every.
Everything that we are can bepoisoned by shame.
It's incredibly destructive.
And I've named my practiceShameless Mama Wellness because my
(08:47):
personal and professional goalin life is to eradicate shame from
the maternal experience wehave when we find out we are pregnant.
We get all the books and wehave what to expect when you're expecting
and we are prepared and wehave all the gadgets we need and
we know about sleep trainingand we know about breastfeeding.
We know all these things.
And the one thing that theynever prepare you for is maternal
(09:09):
guilt and shame.
And I remember when that hit,it hit like lightning and it just
never goes away.
I think at the end of the day,we will review what we have done
for the day, and we may havebeen a stellar parent.
99.9% of the day, we're goingto focus on that 0.1% where we raised
(09:32):
our voice, we lost our temper,we were not our best selves, and
we will perseverate on that.
And I got to tell you, my sonis 20 and it does not go away.
I will hang up from aconversation with him.
And he's in college.
Oh, why did I say that?
Oh, that was insensible.
Even though he's called me, he's.
(09:52):
I am incredibly important inhis life.
He calls me for Relationship advice.
He's a 20 year old.
So I know that I have done agood job.
I know that we are close.
I know we have an amazing relationship.
Yet I am going to find the onelittle thing I screwed up on and
I'm gonna play it over andover in my head.
And I just, I want to startwith moms who are brand new to start
(10:17):
addressing this and hopefullywhen their kids are 20, they have
that under control, because Istill don't.
Wow.
And so you think that's possible?
Like quite literally, youthink that's possible?
You have to.
I think it.
Yeah, I think it is possible.
I think it's possible.
(10:37):
I think it will take a lot of work.
But I think the more we raiseawareness about it and the more we
allow women to speak about it,because shame is so insidious, like
you said, we don't.
We do everything to keep thatfrom coming to light.
If I speak it out loud, theneveryone will know that I am terrible.
(10:58):
Right.
So when you speak it out loud,you know that everyone else is feeling
the same way.
And as soon as we normalize anemotion and experience anything,
then we start to understand itand we start to understand how universal
it is and how it's simply not valid.
(11:18):
But it starts with awareness.
It just, it's.
Yeah, it's.
Women face obstacles whencoming forward anyway to speak in
general.
And on top of that, shame.
(11:40):
It.
Can keep us from reaching outand that can make us cut off from
support systems.
And it's shame is terrible.
It is, it is.
And silence is terriblebecause you're right.
What keeps us from opening upto supportive and understanding people
(12:04):
who will validate us, who willlisten, who will hear.
And so silence makes yousuffer alone.
So again, it's about awareness.
It's about talking about it.
Let's bring theseconversations to awareness.
Let's help one another through it.
And moms can be the bestabsolute support for other moms.
(12:26):
Let's talk about these thingson the playground.
Let's talk about our feelings,really talk about our feelings.
And it's all exacerbated bysocial media.
And we are literally seeing bepicture perfect moments in people's
lives.
Let's stop doing that, folks.
It's not representative.
This is not what's reallygoing on in our lives.
(12:47):
If you're going to post aboutyour life, be honest so that other
people can do the same.
I'm having a bad day.
I don't feel great today.
I made a mistake today.
I'm having these kinds of intrusive.
Thoughts.
Let's talk about it.
Because when we misrepresentour lives on social media, everybody
else does the same.
(13:10):
And there is no honesty, thereis no truth, there is no connection.
Not real connection.
That's an enormous cost.
Yeah, it really is.
It's not worth it.
How close does your trauma feel.
(13:30):
Now?
Not very close at all.
It's been two decades and Ihave done so much work around it.
I think you also have togrieve the birth experience that
you didn't have.
I don't know how much of thatI have done.
I was talking to my nieceyesterday, actually, who's going
(13:51):
to be starting a family soon,and she said, oh, I just hope my
birth experience is what I expect.
And they said, oh, babe, don'thave those expectations.
You can't.
You only set yourself up for disappointment.
And the picture perfect birthsthat we see and we're made to believe
are what we're supposed toexperience are very rare.
(14:11):
And so from the get go, we'reset up for disappointment.
We have these idealizedversions of what births should be.
And it is a lot of time andthere is magic in the painful moments
and all of that.
That a lot of time, it doesn'tgo to plan.
A lot of times, breastfeeding,which we are taught to believe is
(14:32):
so natural.
You put baby to breast andthey eat and everything is wonderful.
That rarely happens.
And then from the get go, momsare made to feel that they are a
failure.
As a mother, I cannot say,sustain my child.
I cannot do the basic thingsthat I'm supposed to do right down
to feeding and sustaining him.
And therefore I am unworthy.
(14:53):
And that's what happens.
It's almost designed.
It's almost like it's designedto be disempowering.
Yes.
That to me, empowering twowomen, which many things are designed
(15:13):
to be disempowering to us.
And in the very thing that isactually the most badass thing that
we do, we are disempowered.
At the pinnacle of our power,we are disempowered.
(15:36):
Yeah.
I can't help but think that'snot by design.
A little bit.
I know, yeah.
Your practice, obviously, thefact that you specialize in birth
trauma, that I don't thinkI've heard of that.
(16:01):
Which is outrageous because I.
That's literally what wentthrough and have needed.
And even my husband, I'm sure,needs healing just because he was
there.
Yeah.
(16:21):
No, absolutely.
You watched his babies gothrough the same thing that you did.
Thankfully, I think There is agrowing understanding or the emergence
of an understanding thatsometimes we do have these traumatic
birth experiences and theyneed to be validated, they need to
be seen, and women need to heal.
(16:42):
That's relatively new.
Right.
We didn't have anunderstanding of birth trauma.
Really.
It wasn't on our radar for along time.
And I'm so glad it is nowbecause it's been around forever.
So I do think as a society,we're starting to understand these
are experiences that have tobe healed, they have to be treated
(17:03):
in order for moms and babiesto bond most effectively, in order
for mothers to heal and beable to be present.
So I am glad that people arestarting to look at it.
Absolutely.
That post traumatic growth.
That's what you said, right?
That is.
(17:25):
I just heard that term or thatphrase like a couple days ago.
Oh, really?
And it.
Yeah, yes.
Which is also bizarre.
But I felt that when I was in.
When they, when my childrenwere in the nicu, it was like I felt
(17:51):
like, how do they know I'mtheir mother?
And I felt all of these, likeother people, like, touching them
and the nurses and thedoctors, and I just, I didn't.
I felt very insecure about myplace as their mother.
(18:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I.
I think the growth thathappened was that I hit bottom at
some point and I was justlike, damn it, I'm their mother and
I have to be, and I am, but Ihave to feel that way.
I just have to like, no onecan take that away from me anymore.
(18:37):
And it was amazing how that growth.
It almost seems like posttraumatic growth is like a miracle
or something like it just.
How do you think you arrivedat that place?
I think I had no other option.
So you made that decision?
(18:59):
I think I felt because they.
Because of the circumstancesand the trauma I felt, they don't
know I'm their mom.
No one treats me with any sortof like, respect or.
(19:19):
I don't know.
That's another thing withbirth trauma is a lot of it stems
from the way hospital staffand they're.
Well meaning.
They.
I don't think that they meanto treat mothers this way, but a
lot of times we lose ourautonomy and we do lose that sacred
place as mom.
Medical decisions are madewithout our full consent or knowledge.
(19:42):
Things are not explained.
And our bo.
We lose the sense that ourbody is ours.
We lose the sense that ourchildren are ours.
So it sounds like that's alittle bit of what you are relaying
as well.
So I use a trauma treatmentfor birth Trauma called emdr, eye
(20:03):
movement desensitization and reprocessing.
And it is an evidence basedtreatment that works neurobiologically
to rewire the brain.
Essentially, in a nutshell, itworks very well and very quickly.
One thing about birth traumais when we experience birth trauma,
a lot of times it willreignite previous traumas in our
(20:26):
lives.
So it has a compounding effectand we have to treat the birth trauma
and then you see, especiallythrough emdr because it works neurobiologically
how neurobiologically thistrauma is connected to previous traumas
and then intensified.
So that's a treatment that Iuse that's very effective.
(20:47):
And it's another part of beingreally satisfying as a form of treatment
because you do see moms heal.
A lot of moms will come to mefor birth trauma treatment when they
are starting IVF because they,their trauma is preventing them from
really moving forward.
And they fear they might havehad multiple losses, multiple disappointments,
(21:08):
and they fear thatdisappointment and loss.
And the satisfaction level isoff the charts there because we can
treat the birth trauma, we canmove them forward, and then they
are more emotionally ready tostart this new journey.
So that's a really effective treatment.
Important to differentiate the journeys.
(21:30):
Like this was ivf, now this ispregnancy or I feel like for me,
everything just blended together.
It does.
And that's the way trauma works.
We really store trauma inmemory networks, in our brains, and
they're connected.
(21:51):
I always use the analogy of ifyou open up your jewelry box and
all your necklaces are tangled.
Most women have done that.
We used to take like a safetypin and try to untangle them all.
But when it's a mass, atangled mass, it's so hard to tell
where one necklace begins andone, then another one begins.
And it's like that with thesetraumatic memories, they bunch together
(22:14):
in these memory networks.
And EMDR especially will startto pull those memories apart and
process them.
It also has a domino effect.
So when the memories are heldin a memory network and we start
to process one, the dominoeffect will hit the other traumas
and process them as well.
So it, but it does it.
(22:38):
Your brain gets a little bitjumbled there when you pile all these
things on top of it.
That is such a good metaphor.
It provides hope.
Yeah, there's definitely hope.
These are things that, thatcan be healed.
(22:58):
And again, we have to speakabout them.
We have to recognize andacknowledge and validate and then
we can heal.
But birthworm is very treatable.
It doesn't women do not haveto suffer with it.
That's a beautiful statement.
I feel like.
I feel like I have not heard that.
(23:20):
Yeah.
So that's a very helpful message.
I think a lot of women too are not.
They don't identify what theyexperience as traumatic.
And I've seen that in a lot.
It was painful.
I wouldn't call it traumatic.
And I don't ever try to putwords into someone's mouths.
I call it what they, they call it.
(23:41):
But I also like to introduceif it felt traumatic to you, than
it was.
And maybe what you experiencedwould not be traumatic for somebody
else, but it was for you.
And you get to own that and weget to work on healing that.
That is so important.
(24:02):
It's.
I come back to shame.
It seems also, I think womenare conditioned to belittle their
experiences or with furry andto say, oh, it wasn't that bad.
It's not that bad.
I know that other people havemuch worse.
(24:22):
Yes.
Yeah.
There's some sort of hierarchyof suffering in life and are not
entitled to my sufferingbecause someone had it worse.
Someone will always have it worse.
That does not mean that whatwe experienced was unimportant.
And with birth trauma, there'sthis bright side mentality.
Well, look, you have thisgorgeous baby.
It's okay.
That's going to cancel out allthis pain and suffering.
(24:45):
And I wish the world workedthat way, but it doesn't.
And moms understand they havea beautiful child and nobody takes
that for granted.
But we also want to be seenfor the pain that we've experienced.
We also want to be able tohave somebody connect with that and
validate that.
(25:06):
Yes.
To feel seen.
After giving birth, I felt so invisible.
Yeah, we do become invisible.
Becomes about our babies.
Just the other day I went intomy other niece's house and she has
a 2 year old and everybodyrushes to pick up the baby.
Oh, we give him kisses.
(25:26):
How are you?
And I said, I'm sorry.
I just walked right past youand said hi to the baby.
You're important too.
Give her a kiss.
I love you too.
But we do, you know, as asociety, it's all been all eyes are
on baby, which as it should beand baby needs all eyes on them.
But mom needs to beacknowledged as well.
(25:47):
Especially if she's in pain.
Especially if she has needsthat are it being met.
Right?
Yeah.
That is like more trauma.
That can be more trauma if youare dismissed or don't feel seen.
(26:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
But it's such a.
It's such a great hopefulmessage that you had.
It's not even a message.
It's a fact that.
That it's so easily treatable.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it really is.
It really is.
(26:33):
We just need to talk about it more.
So people come in fortreatment, right?
Exactly.
And that takes a lot.
It can take a lot.
It certainly can.
I feel like I talked to you.
(26:54):
I feel like I took advantageof your profession, and I talked
to you like you're my therapist.
No, I'm sorry.
No.
I.
It.
That's important.
It is important because youare every woman.
Right.
You are every woman who hasexperienced birth trauma.
Let's make that.
Okay.
Let's have those discussions.
(27:15):
Let's talk to everyone and gettheir opinion and input, whether
they're a therapist or not.
It's important to be honestabout those things.
And I appreciate your vulnerability.
That's hard to say.
And by your doing that, youallow other women to do that as well.
So I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(27:36):
That's so true.
Thank you for being my guest today.
And maybe we'll do a part two,since there was a part two interview
in Authority magazine.
How silly.
I would love that.
I really appreciate you having me.
Thank you so much.
And thank you for talkingabout this important subject.
(27:58):
I hope that it inspires otherwomen to do the same.
How I.
Ally, this is Lucinda Koza,and I am here with Marilyn Cross
Coleman, my guest for today.
Hi, Marilyn.
Hi, Lucinda.
Thank you for having me on.
Of course.
Thank you for being here.
If you don't mind, would youintroduce yourself and give a bit
(00:23):
of a backstory?
Sure, sure.
Marilyn Cross Coleman, likeyou said, I'm a perinatal mental
health treatment specialist atPMHC and an lcsw licensed clinical
social worker.
I've been a therapist for.
I'm aging myself, but almost30 years and started perinatal mental
(00:47):
health after the birth of myown son, who is now 20, during which
I had a very traumatic birth experience.
He ended up in the nicu and Iended up with a diagnosis of postpartum
depression.
So after that experience andall that I went through, I decided
(01:08):
to specialize in perinatalmental health.
And it's been an amazing experience.
I recently opened a privatepractice called Shameless Mama Wellness,
where I practice telehealth inthe state of California.
Wow.
So it's so interesting because we.
(01:29):
I actually published twointerviews with you, which is a first
for me.
So it was so interesting tosee to.
To have your personalexperience first and then also see
you speak as a.
(01:50):
As an expert.
What was that like?
We all come to our variousfields for a reason, and I think
my own experience has given meso much passion in the field.
So it's very satisfying to beable to treat all kinds of postpartum
issues and especiallypostpartum trauma.
(02:12):
I specialize in treating birth trauma.
It is so satisfying to seewomen heal in the.
In therapy, we call that posttraumatic growth, where you take
a traumatic experience and youtake from it what you can and you
grow as a result.
And for therapists, a lot ofthat is helping others through some
of the challenges that wefaced ourselves.
(02:34):
And it's a very satisfyingexperience to be able to do that.
Yeah, I definitely had atraumatic birth experience with my
twins.
They're great.
And they're now and they're 19months, but they spent almost three
(02:57):
months in the NICU.
That's devastating.
That's devastating.
How did you get through that?
I was.
I don't know.
Although it's interesting, Iknow that there is work that I still
(03:19):
need to do and healing that Istill need to do.
Because you hit.
You have to hit the ground running.
Even though they were in theNICU immediately, I was a mother
and I was going through those changes.
It's.
How can you process thechanges of becoming a mother in one
(03:45):
instant, but also it being Traumatic.
Absolutely.
It is so hard because we also,the societal expectation is we hit
the ground running.
You're a mom, you have to takecare of your kids.
And now especially the kidsare in the nicu, they need you even
more.
And we're still dealing withthe trauma psychologically, the trauma
(04:07):
to our body.
And it's so hard to createthat balance.
What do I.
How much energy do I retainfor myself and my own healing and
how much do I give?
And it's so hard because whatwe are told is we give and we give
and there is nothing else left.
And part of it, I think, is asa society, we need to redefine self
(04:30):
care, especially for mothers.
Self care is essential for theentire family.
If mom has nothing to give,then nobody is receiving in the entire
family.
So we really have toreconceptualize that and we have
to focus on that self care.
And it's so hard as a mom,especially when your baby's need
(04:52):
so much from you.
So I'm so sorry you had to gothrough that.
And I know you said they're 19months and it seems like a long time
ago, but it wasn't.
You'll be healing from thatfor a really long time.
Yeah.
And I appreciate you sayingthat because, yeah, like there, there's
(05:15):
no way I would get over thatexperience, obviously.
But like you said, societyjust expects bounce back.
Like how quickly can youbounce back?
And it's just not realistic.
(05:36):
And it's harmful.
Yeah, it's absolutely harmful.
And having a child in thenicu, I think the devastation of
that distance from your child,it was beyond words.
I can't even really put thatinto words for someone who hadn't
felt that separation rightafter birth when you were supposed
to be skin to skin, you weresupposed to be fully connected with
(05:58):
your child, to have him in aseparate place, it was heartbreaking
and so painful.
And again, it's hard to putinto words for someone who hasn't
felt how hard that is.
Yes.
I feel like you're speakinglike my brain because that's exactly
(06:22):
what I felt.
It's exactly how I felt.
And there was shame.
And just like you said, I wascompletely unprepared to feel that
way.
And it was overwhelming.
I felt like it was my faultthat I couldn't keep them inside
(06:46):
longer.
And that's the place we alwaysgo as moms.
What could I have done?
And I think part of that is anattempt to control.
Right.
If I know if there's somethingthat I can do, I can change my behavior,
therefore, I will prevent itfrom happening again.
So it's really the illusion of control.
And at the same time, we arepunishing ourselves and we're feeling
(07:07):
this pain and the shame thatis so difficult to bear.
But that is the first place wego to.
My son in utero was diagnosed with.
He was found to have one kidney.
And they didn't know why heonly had one kidney.
And so they.
We had to do a lot of testingto find out what was wrong and what
(07:29):
was creating it.
But the first thing that Ithought was, what have I done?
What did I do?
What did I not eat?
Oh, I drank that beer before Iknew I was pregnant.
What did I.
And just searching my pastbehavior and everything to find a
way to make that somethingthat I had done.
And I remember that the painis just like a knife in your chest.
(07:54):
The shame of the.
And the guilt and trying todetermine what you have done to create
this situation for which yourchild is now suffering.
And that feels almost like auniversal maternal response.
It does.
And shame, actually, I think,is quite possibly the most insidious
(08:24):
thing that one can feel.
You are absolutely correct.
It is.
And it.
It will impact every moleculeof our being.
Every.
Everything that we are can bepoisoned by shame.
It's incredibly destructive.
And I've named my practiceShameless Mama Wellness because my
(08:47):
personal and professional goalin life is to eradicate shame from
the maternal experience wehave when we find out we are pregnant.
We get all the books and wehave what to expect when you're expecting
and we are prepared and wehave all the gadgets we need and
we know about sleep trainingand we know about breastfeeding.
We know all these things.
And the one thing that theynever prepare you for is maternal
(09:09):
guilt and shame.
And I remember when that hit,it hit like lightning and it just
never goes away.
I think at the end of the day,we will review what we have done
for the day, and we may havebeen a stellar parent.
99.9% of the day, we're goingto focus on that 0.1% where we raised
(09:32):
our voice, we lost our temper,we were not our best selves, and
we will perseverate on that.
And I got to tell you, my sonis 20 and it does not go away.
I will hang up from aconversation with him.
And he's in college.
Oh, why did I say that?
Oh, that was insensible.
Even though he's called me, he's.
(09:52):
I am incredibly important inhis life.
He calls me for Relationship advice.
He's a 20 year old.
So I know that I have done agood job.
I know that we are close.
I know we have an amazing relationship.
Yet I am going to find the onelittle thing I screwed up on and
I'm gonna play it over andover in my head.
And I just, I want to startwith moms who are brand new to start
(10:17):
addressing this and hopefullywhen their kids are 20, they have
that under control, because Istill don't.
Wow.
And so you think that's possible?
Like quite literally, youthink that's possible?
You have to.
I think it.
Yeah, I think it is possible.
I think it's possible.
(10:37):
I think it will take a lot of work.
But I think the more we raiseawareness about it and the more we
allow women to speak about it,because shame is so insidious, like
you said, we don't.
We do everything to keep thatfrom coming to light.
If I speak it out loud, theneveryone will know that I am terrible.
(10:58):
Right.
So when you speak it out loud,you know that everyone else is feeling
the same way.
And as soon as we normalize anemotion and experience anything,
then we start to understand itand we start to understand how universal
it is and how it's simply not valid.
(11:18):
But it starts with awareness.
It just, it's.
Yeah, it's.
Women face obstacles whencoming forward anyway to speak in
general.
And on top of that, shame.
(11:40):
It.
Can keep us from reaching outand that can make us cut off from
support systems.
And it's shame is terrible.
It is, it is.
And silence is terriblebecause you're right.
What keeps us from opening upto supportive and understanding people
(12:04):
who will validate us, who willlisten, who will hear.
And so silence makes yousuffer alone.
So again, it's about awareness.
It's about talking about it.
Let's bring theseconversations to awareness.
Let's help one another through it.
And moms can be the bestabsolute support for other moms.
(12:26):
Let's talk about these thingson the playground.
Let's talk about our feelings,really talk about our feelings.
And it's all exacerbated bysocial media.
And we are literally seeing bepicture perfect moments in people's
lives.
Let's stop doing that, folks.
It's not representative.
This is not what's reallygoing on in our lives.
(12:47):
If you're going to post aboutyour life, be honest so that other
people can do the same.
I'm having a bad day.
I don't feel great today.
I made a mistake today.
I'm having these kinds of intrusive.
Thoughts.
Let's talk about it.
Because when we misrepresentour lives on social media, everybody
else does the same.
(13:10):
And there is no honesty, thereis no truth, there is no connection.
Not real connection.
That's an enormous cost.
Yeah, it really is.
It's not worth it.
How close does your trauma feel.
(13:30):
Now?
Not very close at all.
It's been two decades and Ihave done so much work around it.
I think you also have togrieve the birth experience that
you didn't have.
I don't know how much of thatI have done.
I was talking to my nieceyesterday, actually, who's going
(13:51):
to be starting a family soon,and she said, oh, I just hope my
birth experience is what I expect.
And they said, oh, babe, don'thave those expectations.
You can't.
You only set yourself up for disappointment.
And the picture perfect birthsthat we see and we're made to believe
are what we're supposed toexperience are very rare.
(14:11):
And so from the get go, we'reset up for disappointment.
We have these idealizedversions of what births should be.
And it is a lot of time andthere is magic in the painful moments
and all of that.
That a lot of time, it doesn'tgo to plan.
A lot of times, breastfeeding,which we are taught to believe is
(14:32):
so natural.
You put baby to breast andthey eat and everything is wonderful.
That rarely happens.
And then from the get go, momsare made to feel that they are a
failure.
As a mother, I cannot say,sustain my child.
I cannot do the basic thingsthat I'm supposed to do right down
to feeding and sustaining him.
And therefore I am unworthy.
(14:53):
And that's what happens.
It's almost designed.
It's almost like it's designedto be disempowering.
Yes.
That to me, empowering twowomen, which many things are designed
(15:13):
to be disempowering to us.
And in the very thing that isactually the most badass thing that
we do, we are disempowered.
At the pinnacle of our power,we are disempowered.
(15:36):
Yeah.
I can't help but think that'snot by design.
A little bit.
I know, yeah.
Your practice, obviously, thefact that you specialize in birth
trauma, that I don't thinkI've heard of that.
(16:01):
Which is outrageous because I.
That's literally what wentthrough and have needed.
And even my husband, I'm sure,needs healing just because he was
there.
Yeah.
(16:21):
No, absolutely.
You watched his babies gothrough the same thing that you did.
Thankfully, I think There is agrowing understanding or the emergence
of an understanding thatsometimes we do have these traumatic
birth experiences and theyneed to be validated, they need to
be seen, and women need to heal.
(16:42):
That's relatively new.
Right.
We didn't have anunderstanding of birth trauma.
Really.
It wasn't on our radar for along time.
And I'm so glad it is nowbecause it's been around forever.
So I do think as a society,we're starting to understand these
are experiences that have tobe healed, they have to be treated
(17:03):
in order for moms and babiesto bond most effectively, in order
for mothers to heal and beable to be present.
So I am glad that people arestarting to look at it.
Absolutely.
That post traumatic growth.
That's what you said, right?
That is.
(17:25):
I just heard that term or thatphrase like a couple days ago.
Oh, really?
And it.
Yeah, yes.
Which is also bizarre.
But I felt that when I was in.
When they, when my childrenwere in the nicu, it was like I felt
(17:51):
like, how do they know I'mtheir mother?
And I felt all of these, likeother people, like, touching them
and the nurses and thedoctors, and I just, I didn't.
I felt very insecure about myplace as their mother.
(18:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I.
I think the growth thathappened was that I hit bottom at
some point and I was justlike, damn it, I'm their mother and
I have to be, and I am, but Ihave to feel that way.
I just have to like, no onecan take that away from me anymore.
(18:37):
And it was amazing how that growth.
It almost seems like posttraumatic growth is like a miracle
or something like it just.
How do you think you arrivedat that place?
I think I had no other option.
So you made that decision?
(18:59):
I think I felt because they.
Because of the circumstancesand the trauma I felt, they don't
know I'm their mom.
No one treats me with any sortof like, respect or.
(19:19):
I don't know.
That's another thing withbirth trauma is a lot of it stems
from the way hospital staffand they're.
Well meaning.
They.
I don't think that they meanto treat mothers this way, but a
lot of times we lose ourautonomy and we do lose that sacred
place as mom.
Medical decisions are madewithout our full consent or knowledge.
(19:42):
Things are not explained.
And our bo.
We lose the sense that ourbody is ours.
We lose the sense that ourchildren are ours.
So it sounds like that's alittle bit of what you are relaying
as well.
So I use a trauma treatmentfor birth Trauma called emdr, eye
(20:03):
movement desensitization and reprocessing.
And it is an evidence basedtreatment that works neurobiologically
to rewire the brain.
Essentially, in a nutshell, itworks very well and very quickly.
One thing about birth traumais when we experience birth trauma,
a lot of times it willreignite previous traumas in our
(20:26):
lives.
So it has a compounding effectand we have to treat the birth trauma
and then you see, especiallythrough emdr because it works neurobiologically
how neurobiologically thistrauma is connected to previous traumas
and then intensified.
So that's a treatment that Iuse that's very effective.
(20:47):
And it's another part of beingreally satisfying as a form of treatment
because you do see moms heal.
A lot of moms will come to mefor birth trauma treatment when they
are starting IVF because they,their trauma is preventing them from
really moving forward.
And they fear they might havehad multiple losses, multiple disappointments,
(21:08):
and they fear thatdisappointment and loss.
And the satisfaction level isoff the charts there because we can
treat the birth trauma, we canmove them forward, and then they
are more emotionally ready tostart this new journey.
So that's a really effective treatment.
Important to differentiate the journeys.
(21:30):
Like this was ivf, now this ispregnancy or I feel like for me,
everything just blended together.
It does.
And that's the way trauma works.
We really store trauma inmemory networks, in our brains, and
they're connected.
(21:51):
I always use the analogy of ifyou open up your jewelry box and
all your necklaces are tangled.
Most women have done that.
We used to take like a safetypin and try to untangle them all.
But when it's a mass, atangled mass, it's so hard to tell
where one necklace begins andone, then another one begins.
And it's like that with thesetraumatic memories, they bunch together
(22:14):
in these memory networks.
And EMDR especially will startto pull those memories apart and
process them.
It also has a domino effect.
So when the memories are heldin a memory network and we start
to process one, the dominoeffect will hit the other traumas
and process them as well.
So it, but it does it.
(22:38):
Your brain gets a little bitjumbled there when you pile all these
things on top of it.
That is such a good metaphor.
It provides hope.
Yeah, there's definitely hope.
These are things that, thatcan be healed.
(22:58):
And again, we have to speakabout them.
We have to recognize andacknowledge and validate and then
we can heal.
But birthworm is very treatable.
It doesn't women do not haveto suffer with it.
That's a beautiful statement.
I feel like.
I feel like I have not heard that.
(23:20):
Yeah.
So that's a very helpful message.
I think a lot of women too are not.
They don't identify what theyexperience as traumatic.
And I've seen that in a lot.
It was painful.
I wouldn't call it traumatic.
And I don't ever try to putwords into someone's mouths.
I call it what they, they call it.
(23:41):
But I also like to introduceif it felt traumatic to you, than
it was.
And maybe what you experiencedwould not be traumatic for somebody
else, but it was for you.
And you get to own that and weget to work on healing that.
That is so important.
(24:02):
It's.
I come back to shame.
It seems also, I think womenare conditioned to belittle their
experiences or with furry andto say, oh, it wasn't that bad.
It's not that bad.
I know that other people havemuch worse.
(24:22):
Yes.
Yeah.
There's some sort of hierarchyof suffering in life and are not
entitled to my sufferingbecause someone had it worse.
Someone will always have it worse.
That does not mean that whatwe experienced was unimportant.
And with birth trauma, there'sthis bright side mentality.
Well, look, you have thisgorgeous baby.
It's okay.
That's going to cancel out allthis pain and suffering.
(24:45):
And I wish the world workedthat way, but it doesn't.
And moms understand they havea beautiful child and nobody takes
that for granted.
But we also want to be seenfor the pain that we've experienced.
We also want to be able tohave somebody connect with that and
validate that.
(25:06):
Yes.
To feel seen.
After giving birth, I felt so invisible.
Yeah, we do become invisible.
Becomes about our babies.
Just the other day I went intomy other niece's house and she has
a 2 year old and everybodyrushes to pick up the baby.
Oh, we give him kisses.
(25:26):
How are you?
And I said, I'm sorry.
I just walked right past youand said hi to the baby.
You're important too.
Give her a kiss.
I love you too.
But we do, you know, as asociety, it's all been all eyes are
on baby, which as it should beand baby needs all eyes on them.
But mom needs to beacknowledged as well.
(25:47):
Especially if she's in pain.
Especially if she has needsthat are it being met.
Right?
Yeah.
That is like more trauma.
That can be more trauma if youare dismissed or don't feel seen.
(26:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
But it's such a.
It's such a great hopefulmessage that you had.
It's not even a message.
It's a fact that.
That it's so easily treatable.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it really is.
It really is.
(26:33):
We just need to talk about it more.
So people come in fortreatment, right?
Exactly.
And that takes a lot.
It can take a lot.
It certainly can.
I feel like I talked to you.
(26:54):
I feel like I took advantageof your profession, and I talked
to you like you're my therapist.
No, I'm sorry.
No.
I.
It.
That's important.
It is important because youare every woman.
Right.
You are every woman who hasexperienced birth trauma.
Let's make that.
Okay.
Let's have those discussions.
(27:15):
Let's talk to everyone and gettheir opinion and input, whether
they're a therapist or not.
It's important to be honestabout those things.
And I appreciate your vulnerability.
That's hard to say.
And by your doing that, youallow other women to do that as well.
So I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(27:36):
That's so true.
Thank you for being my guest today.
And maybe we'll do a part two,since there was a part two interview
in Authority magazine.
How silly.
I would love that.
I really appreciate you having me.
Thank you so much.
And thank you for talkingabout this important subject.
(27:58):
I hope that it inspires otherwomen to do the same.
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