May 18, 2025 • 47 mins
In this candid and eye-opening episode of How I Ally, Lucinda Koza is joined by relationship coach and therapist Rich Heller, founder of Rich in Relationship. With decades of experience—and deep personal insight—Rich helps parents navigate high-conflict relationships, rekindle emotional connection, and restore safety within their homes.
Together, they explore:
- Why new parenthood often becomes a flashpoint for relational stress
- How childhood wounds resurface in marriage—and what to do about it
- The evolution of modern masculinity and the need for emotional fluency
- Practical tools for fighting fair and building connection (hello, “I” statements!)
- The deep and often unspoken fear women carry in emotionally unsafe homes
- What real emotional safety feels like—and why it’s essential for healthy parenting
This conversation is raw, validating, and essential listening for any couple trying to stay connected in the midst of sleep deprivation, identity shifts, and unhealed emotional baggage.
Favorite quote:
“We pick our partners because we feel safe enough to unpack our stuff around each other. But the problem is—we didn’t give each other that heads up.” – Rich Heller
Connect with Rich:
Website: www.richinrelationship.com
Instagram: @richinrelationship
Podcast: Rich in Relationship – Available on all major platforms
Resources mentioned:
- “I” statements framework
- The concept of emotional fluency in relationships
- Postpartum rage, hormone detox, and parenting dynamics
✨ If this episode resonated with you, please leave a review or share it with someone in the early stages of parenting or partnership. You’re not alone—and you deserve safety and support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to How I Ally.
This is Lucinda Koza and I am here with my second male guest ever.
I honored.
Yes.
And I'm gonna ask him to introduce himself and give a little bit of a bio backstory for our listeners.
(00:25):
For sure.
My name is Rich Heller and I have a.
Practice that I call Rich in relationship, which is also a podcast and it's in all kinds of good places.
I'll spare you the details for now.
And I work with primarily.
With couples who feel like they've lost their way that they started out in love and very passionate, and somehow they become roommates or maybe even worse than roommates.
(00:53):
Maybe they're like really unhappy roommates, which believe it or not, Lucinda is very common in our culture today.
And I have been, I've lived this and I've worked actually for years now.
With couples in this position.
And it is a passion for, it's a personal mission for me to help parents in particular to restore joy, restore a sense of prosperity, and more than money, feeling like they're living the richest emotional life possible to their marriage for themselves and for their children.
(01:28):
And my own story is part of what contributes to that, but I don't think we have a lot of time for that today.
I, of course I wanna hear your story maybe abridged, but I got a lot of years.
The short story is I grew up in a very, what we call a high conflict household, and my parents it was best for my brother and I when nobody was there.
(01:55):
It was okay, if one of them was there.
It was terrible if both of them were there.
And so part of making good out of that history is taking the lessons and the learnings that I have in my own healing and growth from growing up there and learning how to have a partnership instead of taking a hostage in my marriage.
(02:16):
And, taking those lessons and applying them professionally.
With the people that I work with.
And I, I've also done, I've got years experience working outpatient with addicts and alcoholics and their families who very much follow that pattern.
And so that's what drew me into it.
And it, it seems to be an area that not a lot of people wanna work in.
They don't like the conflict part, but I have a pretty high threshold for it.
(02:41):
Really? You mean for working.
For working on conflict for other people's crap.
I have a high threshold for other people's crap.
So if they come in the room and they explode, I'm like, okay, been there, done that.
So now what? Thank God for you.
Really, that's what people need.
(03:01):
Sometimes they need more than that, but it's a good start.
A lot of people who do the work that I do, honestly do not have they're conflict avoidant, and so they put a lot of rules around people in the, a lot of family therapists and, the folks who do this work, they put a lot of rules in the room that they're working.
You can't interrupt each other.
You can't be explosive.
You can't do that.
(03:21):
And the problem with that is that couples learn how to behave really well in the room with the counselor or the therapist, but then they can't take those rules home with them.
And it only works in a co controlled environment.
It's if an alcoholic, you went to rehab and never learned how to work, you know how to survive in the world, it's.
And so I, to some extent, part of the healing has to be letting that stuff out in front of somebody else and then having them guide you through what's that really about? What did you really want to say? What's underneath? Why are you going from zero to 60? What is the extra emotion that's showing up in the room? Because usually when we go off, there's a good reason for it.
(03:58):
But the problem is we explode right in a moment that doesn't seem to warrant an explosion.
But it's coming from some other moment and being carried into the present moment.
Exactly right and general.
And when one person goes from zero to 60, it is not unusual for the other person to feel just a little defensive, just a little tri triggered, just a little reactive.
(04:25):
And they go from zero to 60, and that just starts.
It's like a black hole of blame and anger.
There's no stopping that train once it leaves to the station, until both people are exhausted and go to their corners.
Sometimes they have good makeup sex afterwards and the throes of it, but after a while, even that goes away.
And that's just like you said the way you grow, you grew up.
(04:48):
It's just, it could be so damaging and so devastating to do that, to go into that black hole in front of your children.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Very.
And then the children I, I argue that children are gonna need therapy no matter what there's no such thing as a perfect parent, but it would be better if it wasn't quite so traumatic.
(05:19):
And if you can, it seems to me I'm not the professional here, but it seems to me that if you can show that, if you can admit you made a mistake or admit that you did something wrong, and then you can show that you're working on it that, that's something that's.
(05:41):
You're never gonna be perfect, but showing that you're trying to be better is better than nothing.
Oh, I think that's huge.
I think Ma being, making yourself vulnerable to your partner, owning your stuff is tremendous.
The only catch to that is if you're in that sort of spiral the other, the partner nine times outta 10 will see that as an opportunity to go in for the kill.
(06:12):
Like my own wife used to say to me.
No matter what I say, you just keep going.
Even when I do what you just said, she was in therapy she would come and she would stop the dynamic.
She, and she would say, yeah, I get it.
I made a mistake here.
And I would go, that's right.
You made a mistake and let me tell you all about it.
(06:33):
So like in the moment it's it when both partners are they're what we call it in therapy on amygdala hijack, when that part of the brain is active.
Both partners.
If one of 'em exposes their belly nine times outta 10, the other one's gonna be too fired up to step in and to say, yeah, thank you for saying that.
(06:57):
That takes, that, it takes getting off of getting out of that part of your brain that's fight flight or play dead and being rational.
And if the chemistry's really going.
It's almost it's, you're, if you're riding that wave of emotional rage, it's very hard to step out of it.
I'm like, kudos to my wife that she could, and it's taken some time.
Now.
We don't have that dynamic anymore and it's takes some time.
(07:19):
Now when she says, yeah, you're right.
I go, thank, I can say thank you, but that's yours.
That's work.
That's, you wanna be careful with that.
Probably the best thing is when P two people are in that spiral, step out, reset, the studies show it takes at least 20 minutes for the whole chem body chemistry to change.
(07:40):
Change.
You wanna go out for a walk and get some of that stuff outta your system.
And then maybe when both people are chill, then you can say, all right, I'm ready to own my part.
No one's a hundred percent responsible.
That's so important to.
So I mentioned before we started recording I'm really interested in why having children can.
(08:08):
For women, I know it's, there's so much going on, with hormones and changes in the brain, literally, there's so much going on.
There's postpartum rage that can happen.
But I seem to find a lot of young parents hating each other.
(08:33):
Very painful.
And also, I just wanna take a second to acknowledge the work that you're doing here with your podcast in regard to women who have just had children.
I think this something, we walk into marriage and, or if not marriage, having children.
Without a handbook, without a real understanding of what it means, no matter how many books you read, no matter how many people you talk to, you just, you can't know.
(09:00):
And so it's great that I love that you're doing this work, that you're putting it out there.
And to answer your question, two people do the fall in love thing the, and when you're in love, all your pistons are firing.
You're speaking all the love languages.
You're giving gifts.
You're spending quality time.
You're affirming each other.
(09:20):
You're touching each other.
You are, I'm missing one of the five love languages.
Every, you're doing 'em all.
And because you're like, you're in it and everyone around you is happy for you.
And even your boss is alright, so you're screwing off a little at work.
But I get it, you're in love, right? Everyone gives us a little grace for that, right? But you get you, you have a cap on that.
There's a studies show two, maybe three years if you're lucky.
(09:41):
And one person always drops out before the other.
Then, but you get married, right? And then in love, see you.
Oh, you marry me.
I do.
You get married.
And then you have those kids.
And which I said earlier, and you know from personal experience, nobody can prepare you for that.
And all of a sudden, not only you, not in love, but the two of you are trying to juggle a lopsided plate or something, right? Like having a kid is just oh my God, how do we do this? So first you're trying to figure out how to do it.
(10:08):
The woman is going through now nine months of hormone detox.
The guy, most of us guys are not even.
We don't even know the words of emotion.
Much less emotional fluency.
So we really don't, we don't know how to say what we're feeling.
We don't know how to put words to what we're feeling.
'cause we've been trained not to, my friend John Chinner was on my podcast recently talking about the man box.
(10:32):
In the man box.
There's no emotion.
You just get the job done and then, so we have no ability to really empathize with our wives, who have gone through nine months of intense hormone change.
This unbelievable experience of giving birth incredibly painful and incredibly joyful.
And then nine months of emotional change back to normal normalcy.
(10:52):
We don't, right? Only unrelatable to us, and plus we have no words.
And what I think for the men, I can't speak for the woman 'cause I haven't really, I haven't been there yet.
Gimme a life back to least to my knowledge, but speaking for the men, I think what happens is guys are linear thinkers.
They wanna fix, they wanna repair, they want, they wanna help.
(11:13):
But we don't have, we haven't given ourselves the emotional tools.
To help with this.
And this requires emotional connection.
Emotional fluency is what I call it, in Rich in relationship.
relationship And we, we barely put words to our emotion.
And I think in the frustration of trying to fix and help in ways that the wife totally doesn't need or want, receive that it looks like manipulation or control, in that state like the whole thing just explodes.
(11:44):
Yeah, and it then it triggers all that old, then the old stuff comes in, right? We're married with all of our tapes from what our parents did when we were kids start playing.
Your wife becomes your mother, your husband becomes your father, or maybe your husband becomes your mother, and, or maybe all of it, it's it gets real crazy, real fast.
(12:06):
Yeah, that's that's, yes.
Like I, I've just discovered that recently that sometimes if my husband I'm just gonna spill my beans here.
If my husband leaves the house at a, the particularly wrong second, I turn into 12-year-old Lucinda and I am feeling like my dad is abandoning the kids and the family and I mean it right away.
(12:42):
I feel I feel that.
Yeah.
And that's, that makes sense.
If that was your experience.
When you were 12 and that feeling, that experience, the programming that was our parents laid this stuff into us and we received it.
It's what worked in the envi, in our ecology.
Then if that's been laid into us and it hasn't been altered, that's gonna get triggered and it's gonna come right up and that's just how we are as human beings.
(13:08):
And so for people who are in the position of being triggered, the trick is to let go of the old emotion find.
And that takes a little work 'cause it's our unconscious mind groups.
It isn't just dad at 12, it is a bunch of other experiences all lined up to validate this belief that, when I whatever the belief is, when I really need help, they always walk out or whatever the, it's some story we make up.
(13:31):
And to let go of that, it takes some work.
And then we gotta lay in a new program, which, which is positive.
And it, and that takes takes some effort.
I do a process called mental and emotional release with clients.
That's super helpful with that.
It's very intensive, very hardcore.
And I, it's pretty much 100% effective as far as I can tell.
(13:54):
I give people a money back guarantee and no one's ever asked for it.
But, I want you to know that you are not alone.
Everybody's having this experience, not just people who have just given birth, but people in all kinds of situations, and particularly in our marriages, I've come to believe, Lucinda, that we pick our partners because we feel safe enough to unpack our stuff around each other.
(14:20):
But the problem is we didn't give each other that heads up.
Hey, heads up, I'm gonna unpack all my childhood shit and you're gonna have to deal with it.
And because they don't know that they think it's about them.
Oh.
Oh no.
That's fine.
Might be, it might be a podcast.
Please this conversation warrants colorful language.
(14:42):
I also want that, I also wanna say in your defense think about it only been over the last 50 years that guys have really had the opportunity.
To be present for their wives and their children.
So like culturally, there's, that we just, we haven't been trained into this.
And it literally is about experience and training.
(15:04):
Half of it is that, that we aren't very good with emotion.
And half of it is that this is, this territory of what masculinity is in 2025 is really new.
That is, and you talked about that in your interview, in, in the printed interview.
And I find that so that's so true.
(15:28):
For the man and for me as well because my parents, did not have that, like dynamic at all.
And I guess it wasn't really expected of my dad to be present or be, nearly as involved as I guess men are becoming today.
(15:56):
All the movement is not just towards maternity leave, but now paternity leave as well.
My daughter just had a baby six months ago and her husband had been taking paternity leave to take care of the child, and it's been crazy watching her go back to work and trust him with being the, my dad, she was the mom and now he's the my dad.
(16:21):
And and he does it completely differently there, and the baby freaked out.
The baby's wait a minute.
Where is my breast milk? That came from a warm human being instead of a bottle.
What's up with this baby? Tested the crap out of him, but he's getting there.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
That's really new.
(16:43):
When I was a kid, I, my parents got divorced when I was 12 and I chose to go live with my father after a year, which freaked him out.
Like all of his previous kids, he had shuttled off on his other wives.
I was the one who said, dad, I wanna live with you.
And the way he handled it was he imported a woman to take care of me basically.
You know who is still one of my many stepmom's today.
(17:06):
It's, and she was, she took great care of me.
Wow.
But did not know what to do.
And so he brought, he, he brought in the A team.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have, yeah.
Guys are clueless, but we're, I think we're getting a clue.
My son-in-law is an example of he's getting a clue.
(17:29):
Yeah, yeah.
It's a huge turning point, like for sexuality right now, and not only are there multiple genders, but that, that there's an opportunity for men to get out of the box, where, I'm the high planes drifter.
Who never really has relationships and, I'm always ready for warfare and like to move out of that nonsense into, oh, I'm a human, I'm a human being.
(17:55):
Human and human beings have what feelings.
It's like a whole nother planet.
Big opportunity though.
absolutely.
I've even noticed it with my father.
He, now in his he's about to turn 80.
He is very emotional now.
(18:18):
But that could also, be a bunch of other factors.
But, but yeah it's there's no box, like you said just because you have feelings and you wanna be home with the kids and wear fricking pink or whatever it, you are still, you could still be straight, there's no longer this, or at least, in the circles that I run in longer.
(18:49):
This oh, you're gay.
Oh, you're gay.
Oh, you're gay.
I heard this what did he call himself? An evolution, evolutionary psychologist or something like that.
He is been interviewed on somebody's podcasts.
And he said, and I, these were his words, right? I didn't mind making this up.
He said, the new phase of evolution is that women find men who are a little bit gay to be more attractive.
(19:13):
And he said, no.
He says, we, we can't the genes for this gayness cannot be you literally talking about this.
And I was like.
What if what you're really talking about here is that women who find men who are in touch with their feelings, are more attractive.
And so of course they can't be completely gay because then you can't have babies.
(19:34):
It's that's actually not true.
It's a little, he's got some misunderstandings, but I think the thing that he's identified is.
Emotional availability.
If toxic masculinity, that thing that we see on the internet are these guys who are like, my woman does what I say, and, I'm strong and I get what I want, and I've got the nice car's all about materialism and feelings.
(19:59):
What are those? If that's toxic masculinity, then by inference, healthy masculinity is going to be.
Ability to feel, ability to connect, ability to emote.
But I still think that the, it's hardwired into guise to be productive.
But let's just go back to so here you are, you're, you've got a new baby.
(20:22):
And things are rough.
The first thing that I would, if I were gonna write a prescription that didn't involve any outside help, just you know what the, for starters, I would say for starters, whenever you get into, and this is for anyone, but particularly in the situation that we started talking about, when you start getting into that spiral where it feels like you hate each other or you're angry at each other, or you're blaming each other, it's better to be in separate corners than to engage in that thing.
(20:50):
That's a, that it's a destructive kind of, the reason I say it's a destructive black hole is it just sucks you deeper and deeper.
And it's if a relationship is a bank account, right? When a couple does that, they are withdrawing money from the bank account.
And after a while the bank account goes into negative, right? And it seems like, why am I in this marriage? Which is a terrible experience to have when you've just had a baby.
(21:13):
And so you don't wanna draw from that bank account, you just want it like, just stop doing the negative stuff, right? If you can't put good stuff in, don't take the good stuff out by hammering each other.
That would be number one, right? Go to your corners and reset.
Then number two would be if you really wanna share feelings, there's a frame in.
(21:34):
Psychology That's real very well known.
Called I statements.
I talk about this all the time with people.
An I statement is, Hey Rich, Hey Rich.
I'm really frustrated right now 'cause I've been taking care of the baby all day.
And you come home and I'm really frustrated when I've been taking, I'm really frustrated.
(21:56):
The next part is the when.
When and the situation, you come home I've been after being at work and don't even wanna pick her, him up.
And then the, because and because when I was 12 years old, the same thing happened and I don't want to see that happen to our child.
So the, because is the really important part.
It needs to be about me.
(22:18):
The situation is what's actually happening.
The feeling is the feeling are actually happening, but the because is because it brings up in me an old memory because it brings up in me a fear.
When it starts becoming, because you are a nasty jerk and I hate you, then it's, you've blown the whole thing up.
It's become a blame statement instead of an I statement.
So start with an I statement and see if they can receive it.
(22:40):
If they can't receive the I statement if that triggers them, then they've probably got something going on big too.
Usually an I statement when properly delivered builds empathy, but sometimes when the other person's a little fired up.
It'll bring a negative response anyway.
Kinda like when my wife said to me, Hey, I get it, it's my fault.
And I'm like, ah, now I can really get her, if you're already fired up, it doesn't matter what the other person says.
(23:05):
So I statements are super powerful just for letting out that feeling.
And, you can share it with them, with saying, I, I don't need to fix this.
I don't need to change this.
I just need you to know the experience that I'm having, that it's my feeling.
The feelings are irrational.
They're not your, my feelings are not your fault, right? My feelings, this experience brings up this feeling and it has to do with who I am and you know what my expectations are or whatever I'd like.
(23:32):
It just becomes, it becomes like painting a canvas for them.
So it's like the opposite of what we do when we're frustrated.
Usually it goes like this, Hey Rich, you're such a jerk.
You came home, you didn't kiss me.
You didn't even pick up the baby.
I've been here all day.
I'm so pissed off, and it's all your fault, right? That's the opposite, right? That's what we're what we're trained to do, right? So the I statement, and here's the reason why I statements work for us, if not for them.
(24:02):
Is forcing ourselves to speak in a form.
I am feeling X when the situation because something about me, even though I wanna blame them.
I always wanna blame the other person.
I gotta tell you, Lucinda, I've had years at 30.
I still wanna blame everybody, right? I'm working on it.
I don't do it.
I don't go there.
I notice it, I move past it, but it's still present for me.
(24:23):
I got some release work to do, but because I'm sticking to that form, it keeps me from getting my amygdala that fight, flight, or play dead part of my brain.
From really getting fired up.
I notice it.
It's a little active, but be because the part of my brain that's thinking is making me stick to the format.
I stay in my rational brain.
(24:45):
Now, do not do this at the end of the day.
'Cause at the end of the day, people are hungry, angry, lonely, and tired.
They don't have a lot of impatience or emotional energy.
It's a better activity.
Like on Saturday morning or something, that's actually really important.
Yeah.
And if you are a new mother, I'm speaking of all you new MO moms out there.
If you're a new mother.
You are probably hungry, angry, lonely, and tired.
(25:06):
A good deal of the time, your body's recovering from having that baby.
Depending on how far along you are, your hormones are shifting back to normalcy, but they're still pretty churned up, and you're being woken up at all.
You're probably both being woken up at all hours of the night.
So if a couple is short on sleep, they're gonna get triggered a lot more easily.
And you're gonna get angry more easily.
(25:27):
And then feeling alone even if you're with the baby, is a lot easier.
Hungry, angry, lonely and tired are major triggers for amygdala, overreaction intensity, especially if you're like hormonally shifting and give yourself some grace.
Give yourself some grace.
Yeah.
(25:47):
I've witnessed the birth of three of them.
Two of them are other, another man's child through my wife or mine.
Now I've taken them, but I've witnessed three births, and it wasn't until we got to the last one that I really learned as a guy, learned how to be there for my wife, even though I was in the room watching it, like I we're very thick.
Creatures, men.
(26:09):
If you look at the brain structure, men and the brain structure of women we don't have a lot of connections between the two lobes, so we tend to stay very rational or very creative.
And honestly, it's more rational than creative.
And we're a little, like a little thick.
Is that, but is that true? It's hard.
(26:31):
It's true.
It's scientifically validated.
Women have more connections between the lobes.
They have greater emotional fluency.
They women have.
If I wanted to be more, if I wanted to honor the kind of gender fluidity, I would say brains that float in estrogen.
Those brains have better peripheral version vision.
Have a pickup on micro emo expressions and body language better than brains that float in testosterone.
(26:58):
If you have a brain that floats in testosterone, but you're sure you're a woman, you're still have the limitations of a brain that floats in testosterone.
If you have a brain that flows in estro and you're sure that you're a man, you still have the limitations and strengths of a brain that flows in estrogen.
This is like chemical, neurological fact.
Wow.
So women are more emotionally fluent by nature or brains that float in estrogen are more emotionally fluent by nature.
(27:24):
And guys, not only do they have a brain that's not as good at that, they can learn it.
We can learn it.
We're tr we're teachable.
But we've also got thousands of years of having it our way.
So we haven't had to, you all have had to kick ass and take names for thousands of years in a male dominated society.
So you've gotten really good at being linear and goal oriented.
That's why women are taking territory in corporate America and men are on their are heels like we haven't figured out, oh my god, we need to change too.
(27:54):
Wow.
Thank you for that.
That was very, that was beautiful.
That was a soundbite for the ages.
That was great.
I even work on those soundbites at my age.
You take all the soundbites you can get.
It is true.
It doesn't occur to especially a white, heterosexual male, maybe Christian. 347 00:28:21,451.3333333 --> 00:28:29,611.3333333 It doesn't occur to them that they might have to do some work and change. 348 00:28:29,641.3333333 --> 00:28:34,51.3333333 I will just state for the record that I am a white Christian, heterosexual male. 349 00:28:34,51.3333333 --> 00:28:37,721.3333333 So there are exceptions and by and large I would agree with you. 350 00:28:38,301.3333333 --> 00:28:41,776.3333333 But honestly African American men not so different. 351 00:28:42,181.3333333 --> 00:28:47,371.3333333 In terms of really it's, it is, or Latinos not so different. 352 00:28:47,371.3333333 --> 00:28:48,541.3333333 This is a guy thing. 353 00:28:49,81.3333333 --> 00:28:49,321.3333333 Yeah. 354 00:28:50,461.3333333 --> 00:28:53,511.3333333 White men have been in the tippy top, in our country. 355 00:28:53,871.3333333 --> 00:28:55,761.3333333 Maybe not in South Africa right now. 356 00:28:55,761.3333333 --> 00:28:59,166.3333333 That's why the president's welcoming all those white guys for over there, over here. 357 00:28:59,666.3333333 --> 00:29:02,611.3333333 But it, it's a guy thing almost universally. 358 00:29:02,631.3333333 --> 00:29:06,461.3333333 The only cultures I've heard of that that somebody brought to my attention recently that might be different. 359 00:29:06,746.3333333 --> 00:29:08,876.3333333 Are certain island communities. 360 00:29:09,116.3333333 --> 00:29:24,866.3333333 And the reason is apparently this mindset has to do with, are you at threat of war? So if you, apparently, if you live in a south Pacific island where you have, there hasn't been war in a long time, the men are much more emotionally fluent. 361 00:29:25,356.3333333 --> 00:29:26,706.3333333 And the culture is very different. 362 00:29:26,756.3333333 --> 00:29:26,976.3333333 Wow. 363 00:29:28,46.3333333 --> 00:29:36,166.3333333 So there's something about, our, being on war standing since basically the American Revolution that has built this up too. 364 00:29:37,166.3333333 --> 00:29:52,516.3333333 Women have always been down, down, even when they've been in power, like Queen Elizabeth, not the most recent one 'cause she didn't really have real power. 365 00:29:53,206.3333333 --> 00:30:14,0.3333333 I'd argue that women have power, have always had power and, it is more like it's more like there's this old, there's this old Greek thing called the master slave dialectic, right? And they used to, they the argument was that the slave had as much power as the master. 366 00:30:14,580.3333333 --> 00:30:20,180.3333333 So the master needs the slave, right? Now I'm not saying men were masters and women are. 367 00:30:22,175.3333333 --> 00:30:27,705.3333333 When men are in power or on top, they still need women and women. 368 00:30:27,795.3333333 --> 00:30:29,385.3333333 There is power in being needed. 369 00:30:29,745.3333333 --> 00:30:30,375.3333333 But I agree. 370 00:30:30,405.3333333 --> 00:30:31,845.3333333 I wholeheartedly agree. 371 00:30:31,845.3333333 --> 00:30:31,875.3333333 I. 372 00:30:32,415.3333333 --> 00:30:39,805.3333333 That we are only finally moving into a time when we are acknowledging that men and women are completely equal. 373 00:30:39,965.3333333 --> 00:30:47,195.3333333 We don't, we're not yet seeing it as women are starting to make the same money for the same jobs, but we're moving to this time. 374 00:30:47,195.3333333 --> 00:30:55,895.3333333 Now, here's this is really interesting where many couples, women are making more than the guy, and that's really what's driving it home is when the. 375 00:30:56,365.3333333 --> 00:31:00,175.3333333 Woman becomes the prime wage earner, the pri prime breadwinner. 376 00:31:00,325.3333333 --> 00:31:02,605.3333333 That forces, and I'm in a household like that right now. 377 00:31:02,605.3333333 --> 00:31:03,925.3333333 I used to be the prime wage earner. 378 00:31:03,925.3333333 --> 00:31:05,605.3333333 Now I'm not. 379 00:31:05,885.3333333 --> 00:31:07,110.3333333 It forces change. 380 00:31:07,110.3333333 --> 00:31:15,90.3333333 It forces you either wig out and leave the marriage or you start to think about what it means to be a man in a very different light. 381 00:31:18,0.3333333 --> 00:31:18,660.3333333 Yeah. 382 00:31:18,660.3333333 --> 00:31:19,890.3333333 You're forced to. 383 00:31:21,90.3333333 --> 00:31:22,215.3333333 That's great. 384 00:31:22,215.3333333 --> 00:31:22,275.3333333 Yeah. 385 00:31:23,525.3333333 --> 00:31:33,330.3333333 It's an amazing thing that's happening in our culture, but boy is it painful for all of us change, but for, we all have long marks behind. 386 00:31:35,520.3333333 --> 00:31:35,810.3333333 Yeah. 387 00:31:37,365.3333333 --> 00:31:37,605.3333333 Yeah. 388 00:31:38,55.3333333 --> 00:31:44,495.3333333 So I would say for women who are going through this transition and it seems tough, give yourself grace, be patient. 389 00:31:45,465.3333333 --> 00:31:54,345.3333333 Start, I find that use I statements just to unwind, build a community also like of other women who have been there and who are going there. 390 00:31:54,345.3333333 --> 00:31:55,395.3333333 Super important. 391 00:31:55,395.3333333 --> 00:31:55,485.3333333 Yes. 392 00:31:56,5.3333333 --> 00:31:56,995.3333333 And be patient. 393 00:31:56,995.3333333 --> 00:31:58,405.3333333 'cause this too shall pass. 394 00:31:59,155.3333333 --> 00:32:04,675.3333333 You both will learn how to show up for the child that the hormone change will come to an end. 395 00:32:04,675.3333333 --> 00:32:06,565.3333333 The freaking kid will start sleeping. 396 00:32:09,335.3333333 --> 00:32:15,935.3333333 It will get better, but right now that the change is still happening at such a high pace, it's really hard to set things straight. 397 00:32:16,805.3333333 --> 00:32:22,670.3333333 So do you, so like in your published interview. 398 00:32:23,670.3333333 --> 00:32:37,800.3333333 Do you feel like saving marriages, saving families, having a positive influence on as many marriages as you can? That, that's a, that's. 399 00:32:39,315.3333333 --> 00:32:46,190.3333333 Hugely influential on society as a whole, do you think? Yeah. 400 00:32:46,835.3333333 --> 00:32:47,465.3333333 Yeah. 401 00:32:47,525.3333333 --> 00:32:55,465.3333333 And I wanna preface this with, sometimes marriages can't be saved, right? It's, both people have to want it. 402 00:32:55,775.3333333 --> 00:32:57,545.3333333 But here's what's really important. 403 00:32:57,815.3333333 --> 00:33:10,775.3333333 All right? I started out as a divorce coach years and years ago, and bumbled into couples work when the pandemic came, 'cause nobody was getting divorced, the courts were closed, and I happened to get mediation training and couples training just before the pandemic started. 404 00:33:10,775.3333333 --> 00:33:13,535.3333333 It was like a, it was just very timely pivot for me. 405 00:33:14,60.3333333 --> 00:33:26,130.3333333 But the studies show that the children who have the highest sense of wellbeing or happiness the, these are children where both parents are married and they're working at being on the same page. 406 00:33:27,300.3333333 --> 00:33:29,430.3333333 'cause two people are never perfectly on the same page. 407 00:33:30,0.3333333 --> 00:33:37,410.3333333 The next level of wellbeing for children is children whose parents are divorced. 408 00:33:38,430.3333333 --> 00:33:41,880.3333333 And working at being on the same page in regard to the children. 409 00:33:42,390.3333333 --> 00:33:50,390.3333333 So it's more, more important for parents to be on the same page in terms of the children than, living than living married. 410 00:33:50,570.3333333 --> 00:33:57,890.3333333 The next level of wellbeing is people who are divorced, but not on the same page. 411 00:33:58,550.3333333 --> 00:34:05,0.3333333 The lowest level of child wellbeing in these studies are people who are married and kicking the crap out of each other. 412 00:34:05,480.3333333 --> 00:34:10,190.3333333 And so I would say my mission more is about helping parents get on the same page. 413 00:34:10,190.3333333 --> 00:34:11,390.3333333 If that means a part. 414 00:34:11,540.3333333 --> 00:34:19,910.3333333 I do something called parent coordination work, where people who are getting divorced and are having trouble figuring out how to parent together needs, need help getting on the same page. 415 00:34:19,910.3333333 --> 00:34:21,290.3333333 So I help them get on the same page. 416 00:34:21,440.3333333 --> 00:34:26,780.3333333 It's almost exactly the same as couples work, except the focus is the children instead of the marriage. 417 00:34:29,90.3333333 --> 00:34:29,840.3333333 Wow. 418 00:34:31,880.3333333 --> 00:34:33,140.3333333 So I, wow. 419 00:34:33,140.3333333 --> 00:34:34,580.3333333 You're thinking about children. 420 00:34:34,890.3333333 --> 00:34:38,460.3333333 Number one, parents are on the same page, number two, and married. 421 00:34:38,460.3333333 --> 00:34:41,640.3333333 Number two, parents are on the same page and divorced. 422 00:34:41,730.3333333 --> 00:34:46,830.3333333 They can't stand living with each other, but they have the same basic values and want the same thing for the children. 423 00:34:47,730.3333333 --> 00:34:52,110.3333333 Three divorced and kicking each other's butt is still better than married and kicking each other's butt. 424 00:34:52,110.3333333 --> 00:34:56,520.3333333 And it goes back to where started you were saying in very beginning of interview. 425 00:34:57,30.3333333 --> 00:35:03,360.3333333 When that dynamic is present where people are just shredding each other, it's incredibly traumatic for the children. 426 00:35:05,85.3333333 --> 00:35:05,375.3333333 Yeah. 427 00:35:07,980.3333333 --> 00:35:08,40.3333333 Yeah. 428 00:35:09,40.3333333 --> 00:35:09,530.3333333 It's, a. 429 00:35:10,795.3333333 --> 00:35:17,665.3333333 It's violence, it's witnessing violence, really emotional violence, which is something we're only just coming to recognize as a problem. 430 00:35:18,155.3333333 --> 00:35:21,395.3333333 We thought it was enough that we ended corporal punishment, or some people still do it. 431 00:35:21,395.3333333 --> 00:35:27,675.3333333 Some people still give little spanks and stuff like that, but it's actually the emotional violence that really get really hurts the children. 432 00:35:27,675.3333333 --> 00:35:28,785.3333333 It brings up a lot of fear. 433 00:35:31,425.3333333 --> 00:35:31,485.3333333 Wow. 434 00:35:31,485.3333333 --> 00:35:35,595.3333333 You're almost better off getting spanked casually than seeing your parents fight violently. 435 00:35:35,655.3333333 --> 00:35:37,125.3333333 I, no one's done that study. 436 00:35:37,125.3333333 --> 00:35:37,695.3333333 Thank God. 437 00:35:38,625.3333333 --> 00:35:47,565.3333333 I don't think, and morally we're gonna take one group of parents who smack their children with a smile and another group of parents who don't hit their children but are shredding each other. 438 00:35:47,565.3333333 --> 00:35:49,725.3333333 That's, I just don't think you can do that one. 439 00:35:50,210.3333333 --> 00:35:50,840.3333333 Yeah. 440 00:35:50,840.3333333 --> 00:35:52,220.3333333 God, no. 441 00:35:52,400.3333333 --> 00:35:54,260.3333333 That's not okay. 442 00:35:55,895.3333333 --> 00:35:56,735.3333333 Oh, man. 443 00:35:57,735.3333333 --> 00:35:58,485.3333333 Oh wow. 444 00:35:59,895.3333333 --> 00:36:13,705.3333333 I think how did you and your wife, how did you and your wife become not in that place where you were? This is my second marriage. 445 00:36:15,85.3333333 --> 00:36:15,535.3333333 Okay. 446 00:36:15,535.3333333 --> 00:36:17,635.3333333 And my wife and I both had. 447 00:36:20,170.3333333 --> 00:36:22,210.3333333 Really special first marriages. 448 00:36:22,700.3333333 --> 00:36:28,10.3333333 She was married to a guy who was very emotionally violent and I was married to a woman who was clinically depressed. 449 00:36:28,10.3333333 --> 00:36:34,730.3333333 So we came from opposite experiences and as a result, I think we both had a lot of gratitude for each other. 450 00:36:35,400.3333333 --> 00:36:43,170.3333333 We have both done a lot of work, personal work, and when that thing that I was telling you about where we would get into those fights and I just wouldn't. 451 00:36:43,815.3333333 --> 00:36:52,235.3333333 I wouldn't back off, I think because of the work that I had done when she said that, I went and worked with a professional on it. 452 00:36:52,235.3333333 --> 00:36:56,585.3333333 I was like, Hey, you know what my wife says? And guess what, it's true. 453 00:36:56,615.3333333 --> 00:36:58,25.3333333 Like first I had to admit it to someone else. 454 00:36:58,25.3333333 --> 00:37:03,15.3333333 I couldn't admit it to her 'cause I was too proud, and then once I admitted it to someone else, I could go back to her with it. 455 00:37:03,375.3333333 --> 00:37:06,345.3333333 And it's really interesting, having worked through that, a new piece. 456 00:37:07,5.3333333 --> 00:37:14,325.3333333 For us is there are things that she hasn't been talking to me about that I know bother her, that I think are based on that. 457 00:37:14,325.3333333 --> 00:37:15,345.3333333 And that was years by the way. 458 00:37:15,345.3333333 --> 00:37:16,305.3333333 That was years ago. 459 00:37:16,665.3333333 --> 00:37:27,705.3333333 I think what happens is, you work through a dynamic and then you settle into a new rhythm and then one of you does some work and you go, wow, we could be closer, but there's something in the way. 460 00:37:27,705.3333333 --> 00:37:29,565.3333333 And then they identify what that thing is in the way. 461 00:37:29,565.3333333 --> 00:37:31,395.3333333 And I sent her this email saying. 462 00:37:31,720.3333333 --> 00:37:34,480.3333333 I've noticed that you don't wanna talk about this, and this. 463 00:37:34,900.3333333 --> 00:37:38,990.3333333 And I'm not sending you this email like as a criticism and saying, when you're ready. 464 00:37:38,990.3333333 --> 00:37:40,610.3333333 I'd really like to talk about those things. 465 00:37:40,610.3333333 --> 00:37:46,590.3333333 I completely understand, given how I used to be, why it might not feel safe for you to talk about these things. 466 00:37:46,590.3333333 --> 00:37:50,280.3333333 And I want you to know I'm ready to make it safe for us to talk about them. 467 00:37:50,610.3333333 --> 00:37:53,580.3333333 And it was so funny, the first thing she said was. 468 00:37:54,780.3333333 --> 00:37:56,40.3333333 I'm not gonna talk about this now. 469 00:37:57,90.3333333 --> 00:37:57,930.3333333 We were in the car together. 470 00:37:57,930.3333333 --> 00:37:59,430.3333333 She said, I'm not gonna talk about this now. 471 00:37:59,980.3333333 --> 00:38:09,945.3333333 But that conversation's coming, that's that, that's beautiful what you said to make it safe. 472 00:38:11,745.3333333 --> 00:38:19,815.3333333 I feel like that is a huge thing that, especially the a man, because. 473 00:38:21,120.3333333 --> 00:38:27,120.3333333 I'll speak for myself, but also for all of my female friends. 474 00:38:28,350.3333333 --> 00:38:38,220.3333333 When you're with a man, there's always this thing in the back of your head that's he could beat the shit outta me or kill me. 475 00:38:38,400.3333333 --> 00:38:39,150.3333333 That's very honest. 476 00:38:41,565.3333333 --> 00:38:42,825.3333333 Most women won't own that. 477 00:38:42,825.3333333 --> 00:38:46,20.3333333 That's in there, that's really honest and that's very real. 478 00:38:48,230.3333333 --> 00:38:53,295.3333333 It's very real and emotional violence brings that right to the top. 479 00:38:55,335.3333333 --> 00:38:55,755.3333333 Yeah. 480 00:38:56,625.3333333 --> 00:39:06,645.3333333 And so if a ba, if a, and especially if your kids are there and the man becomes, the man is scary to the kids as well. 481 00:39:07,695.3333333 --> 00:39:07,725.3333333 'cause. 482 00:39:09,480.3333333 --> 00:39:16,830.3333333 Because they sense their mom is scared or because he's just so big and strong or, but it isn't the big and the strong. 483 00:39:16,830.3333333 --> 00:39:18,30.3333333 It's the feeling behind it. 484 00:39:18,780.3333333 --> 00:39:19,50.3333333 Yeah. 485 00:39:19,620.3333333 --> 00:39:25,40.3333333 This thing of emotional awareness part, one of the things that's happened with we're all equal. 486 00:39:25,880.3333333 --> 00:39:35,180.3333333 Is that when men and women get into arguments, women express their anger like very clean and upfront. 487 00:39:35,570.3333333 --> 00:39:39,380.3333333 And so guys think it's okay for them to do that, right? They think we're equal. 488 00:39:39,380.3333333 --> 00:39:40,70.3333333 I can do that too. 489 00:39:40,70.3333333 --> 00:39:40,730.3333333 And they don't. 490 00:39:41,60.3333333 --> 00:39:49,640.3333333 They don't understand that when you're 40, 50, 60, a hundred pounds bigger than your wife. 491 00:39:50,555.3333333 --> 00:40:01,595.3333333 And she picked you because one of your qualities is she knows that you're, you will take a bullet for her, but, and then you sh you turn that anger to her. 492 00:40:02,145.3333333 --> 00:40:04,785.3333333 The fear becomes you're gonna, that you are the bullet. 493 00:40:04,935.3333333 --> 00:40:07,575.3333333 It's not that you'll take the bullet and it's not conscious. 494 00:40:07,575.3333333 --> 00:40:10,630.3333333 It's not conscious, like in the rational mind. 495 00:40:10,630.3333333 --> 00:40:13,870.3333333 I'm sure you and the women who've experienced this say, oh, this is the guy I love. 496 00:40:13,870.3333333 --> 00:40:15,220.3333333 He would never lay a hand on me. 497 00:40:15,500.3333333 --> 00:40:20,540.3333333 But unconsciously, it's like when a guy is vibrating harmonically, it is spookier. 498 00:40:20,720.3333333 --> 00:40:21,830.3333333 Nine times outta 10. 499 00:40:21,830.3333333 --> 00:40:26,270.3333333 Not always spookier for the woman than when the woman's vibrating harmonically. 500 00:40:26,360.3333333 --> 00:40:30,710.3333333 And honestly, when my wife yells at me, I pretty much smile. 501 00:40:31,160.3333333 --> 00:40:33,290.3333333 I'm just like, wow, she's really letting it out. 502 00:40:33,290.3333333 --> 00:40:36,20.3333333 But if I yell at her, she takes a few steps back. 503 00:40:38,255.3333333 --> 00:40:38,745.3333333 Exactly. 504 00:40:39,55.3333333 --> 00:40:39,345.3333333 Yeah. 505 00:40:39,345.3333333 --> 00:40:40,145.3333333 And exactly. 506 00:40:40,540.3333333 --> 00:40:42,100.3333333 Guys really need to get that. 507 00:40:43,690.3333333 --> 00:40:46,0.3333333 Like what? How they express I statements. 508 00:40:46,420.3333333 --> 00:40:47,20.3333333 Okay. 509 00:40:47,620.3333333 --> 00:40:47,860.3333333 Yeah. 510 00:40:47,890.3333333 --> 00:40:50,80.3333333 But I'm so angry with you right now. 511 00:40:50,170.3333333 --> 00:40:51,70.3333333 Not gonna work. 512 00:40:51,130.3333333 --> 00:40:52,630.3333333 You know that's gotta go someplace else. 513 00:40:52,630.3333333 --> 00:40:52,660.3333333 I. 514 00:40:53,600.3333333 --> 00:40:54,410.3333333 Yes. 515 00:40:54,410.3333333 --> 00:40:56,665.3333333 It goes immediately gotta goes to the gym. 516 00:40:57,110.3333333 --> 00:41:00,120.3333333 It goes for a walk, it means calling friends. 517 00:41:00,120.3333333 --> 00:41:09,210.3333333 It means practicing some prayer or meditation or mindfulness, which we're all shown to build up the thinking part of the brain and shrink that reactionary part of the brain. 518 00:41:09,510.3333333 --> 00:41:10,920.3333333 But, most of us guys don't know that. 519 00:41:10,920.3333333 --> 00:41:13,80.3333333 We think my wife's yelling at me, so it's okay for me to yell at her. 520 00:41:13,80.3333333 --> 00:41:16,640.3333333 I'm I can't tell you how many couples I've had come in the room. 521 00:41:16,985.3333333 --> 00:41:20,945.3333333 Where I asked the wife, Hey, are you afraid of him? And she says, yeah. 522 00:41:20,945.3333333 --> 00:41:22,595.3333333 And he says I never laid a hand on her. 523 00:41:22,955.3333333 --> 00:41:24,365.3333333 And it's good freaking deal. 524 00:41:24,365.3333333 --> 00:41:25,685.3333333 You never laid a hand on her. 525 00:41:25,805.3333333 --> 00:41:27,455.3333333 She's terrified of you, dude. 526 00:41:27,765.3333333 --> 00:41:32,291.3333333 It's like what do you think she is making that up? What? She doesn't wanna be terrified of you. 527 00:41:32,800.3333333 --> 00:41:34,870.3333333 I haven't done anything to make her scared. 528 00:41:34,960.3333333 --> 00:41:39,420.3333333 It's kind guys around infidelity, right? They don't get that. 529 00:41:39,420.3333333 --> 00:41:42,930.3333333 Infidelity isn't when you are in somebody else's body. 530 00:41:42,930.3333333 --> 00:41:44,790.3333333 Infidelity starts emotionally. 531 00:41:46,95.3333333 --> 00:41:50,955.3333333 But they figure, as long as they haven't actually had physical contact, it is an infidelity. 532 00:41:50,955.3333333 --> 00:42:03,615.3333333 But they don't get that, emotionally, they, when they meet that woman at work and they start telling her those intimate secrets, they only should be sharing with their wife and start connecting with her in a way that they, he wishes he was doing with his wife. 533 00:42:03,925.3333333 --> 00:42:05,875.3333333 That in fact is is infidelity. 534 00:42:05,875.3333333 --> 00:42:10,195.3333333 It's, and for a woman that's worse than if you just went and had sex with a prostitute. 535 00:42:10,405.3333333 --> 00:42:13,525.3333333 If you had sex, at least it wouldn't be emotional. 536 00:42:13,585.3333333 --> 00:42:18,938.6666667 It would still suck, the guys just don't get that because they don't have emotional fluency. 537 00:42:20,378.6666667 --> 00:42:25,468.6666667 Most of us, But I'm working with a bunch of guys who are willing to work on this. 538 00:42:25,678.6666667 --> 00:42:27,778.6666667 It's but bringing them in is always the trick. 539 00:42:28,558.6666667 --> 00:42:37,533.6666667 I have to pitch myself to the wives as the husband whisper and they bring them in and I Yeah, so ladies, if you have a husband, you want whisper to gimme a call. 540 00:42:37,743.6666667 --> 00:42:38,13.6666667 Lemme tell. 541 00:42:39,838.6666667 --> 00:42:42,743.6666667 Lemme tell them about emotional fluency and maybe they'll be interested. 542 00:42:42,743.6666667 --> 00:42:44,93.6666667 Maybe they wanna save their marriage. 543 00:42:44,213.6666667 --> 00:42:50,543.6666667 It's not about saving the marriage though, it's maybe they want to really connect with their wife emotionally again, like they did when they first met. 544 00:42:52,298.6666667 --> 00:42:54,308.6666667 Who doesn't want that? That was freaking amazing. 545 00:42:54,488.6666667 --> 00:42:57,758.6666667 We never go back to being in love, but we can have that kind of closeness. 546 00:42:58,908.6666667 --> 00:43:00,198.6666667 And safety. 547 00:43:00,198.6666667 --> 00:43:03,228.6666667 I keep going back to that word, safe safety. 548 00:43:03,528.6666667 --> 00:43:20,168.6666667 Just a feeling of I can say whatever I can do, not abuse in an abusive way, but I can, I don't have to worry all the time if I'm, if he's gonna get mad or if in a bad mood or whatever. 549 00:43:20,538.6666667 --> 00:43:22,188.6666667 Just emotional safety. 550 00:43:24,48.6666667 --> 00:43:24,498.6666667 Yeah. 551 00:43:25,188.6666667 --> 00:43:26,58.6666667 Makes perfect sense. 552 00:43:27,108.6666667 --> 00:43:27,738.6666667 It's scary. 553 00:43:27,738.6666667 --> 00:43:34,398.6666667 It's scary when you know, when you're at home with a child and the person that you've been depending on comes back in their. 554 00:43:35,73.6666667 --> 00:43:36,513.6666667 They're vibrating. 555 00:43:39,3.6666667 --> 00:43:39,483.6666667 Yeah. 556 00:43:39,813.6666667 --> 00:43:42,713.6666667 It's almost it's almost oh, the house felt so good till he came back. 557 00:43:43,673.6666667 --> 00:43:44,63.6666667 Yeah. 558 00:43:45,113.6666667 --> 00:43:46,73.6666667 No fun at all. 559 00:43:47,183.6666667 --> 00:43:47,603.6666667 Yeah. 560 00:43:49,863.6666667 --> 00:43:50,523.6666667 You, I. 561 00:43:52,563.6666667 --> 00:43:58,473.6666667 Have you written a book? I am writing a book called on Men Masculinity and Marriage. 562 00:43:58,473.6666667 --> 00:44:00,93.6666667 I'm actually thinking that's right. 563 00:44:00,633.6666667 --> 00:44:04,833.6666667 I was think, I was thinking today, maybe it's men masculinity and emotional fluency. 564 00:44:04,833.6666667 --> 00:44:06,78.6666667 Maybe that's more important. 565 00:44:06,638.6666667 --> 00:44:06,758.6666667 I. 566 00:44:06,843.6666667 --> 00:44:12,903.6666667 Because I feel like this thing of emotional fluency, it's not just about marriage, it's about how we approach the people that we work with. 567 00:44:13,413.6666667 --> 00:44:14,973.6666667 It's spirituality. 568 00:44:15,513.6666667 --> 00:44:17,163.6666667 It's what spirituality is really about. 569 00:44:17,163.6666667 --> 00:44:22,588.6666667 Throw the religion out of the room, right? I know I put a label on myself, but it doesn't the labels don't really matter. 570 00:44:22,948.6666667 --> 00:44:34,438.6666667 Spirituality is about connection and the way we connect with people, right? And the question is, are we connecting with people just to check a box or are we really connecting with people, and so when I, if I'm at work. 571 00:44:34,963.6666667 --> 00:44:42,103.6666667 And I'm really connecting with my coworkers and I really get why they're there and what builds them up and what gives them juice at work. 572 00:44:42,353.6666667 --> 00:44:55,373.6666667 How much better is my connection and support of them, and how much better is the work we're gonna do if I do that? Or am I going there saying, Lucinda, your job description says you're supposed to be doing A, B, and C, and you seem to only be doing C. 573 00:44:55,373.6666667 --> 00:45:04,43.6666667 What's up? It's, and if you go to, actually, if you go to, there are some women founded businesses out there. 574 00:45:04,403.6666667 --> 00:45:06,893.6666667 They emotionally, they operate very differently. 575 00:45:08,393.6666667 --> 00:45:23,868.6666667 There's some women founded businesses that follow the male model, but there are, but but most of the cutting edge, rapidly growing women owned businesses operate on this model of ecological safety, environmental, within the company safety. 576 00:45:24,223.6666667 --> 00:45:31,433.6666667 And yeah, they still fire people when the job doesn't get done, but it's done in a different kind of way, and build people up more. 577 00:45:31,433.6666667 --> 00:45:37,373.6666667 And there, there's a culture of not just getting it done, but c caring while you get it done. 578 00:45:37,373.6666667 --> 00:45:38,243.6666667 It's pretty amazing. 579 00:45:38,753.6666667 --> 00:45:41,393.6666667 And I feel like that's, that is, I feel like that's where we're moving. 580 00:45:42,893.6666667 --> 00:45:43,133.6666667 Ugh. 581 00:45:44,903.6666667 --> 00:45:47,273.6666667 That's so incredible. 582 00:45:47,693.6666667 --> 00:45:50,423.6666667 It's, that's so incredible. 583 00:45:50,663.6666667 --> 00:45:51,173.6666667 It's just. 584 00:45:52,553.6666667 --> 00:45:53,213.6666667 Wonderful. 585 00:45:53,273.6666667 --> 00:45:56,273.6666667 So grow that baby up, Lucinda, go start a company and make a million bucks. 586 00:45:57,273.6666667 --> 00:45:57,483.6666667 Okay. 587 00:45:58,483.6666667 --> 00:45:59,953.6666667 Thank you so much. 588 00:46:00,553.6666667 --> 00:46:01,423.6666667 I'm frozen. 589 00:46:01,603.6666667 --> 00:46:05,293.6666667 I think you've had a couple of, you've had a couple of frozen moments. 590 00:46:05,293.6666667 --> 00:46:07,213.6666667 It's been such a pleasure to be with you. 591 00:46:07,228.6666667 --> 00:46:09,283.6666667 I, and get through a little and talk with you. 592 00:46:09,283.6666667 --> 00:46:10,243.6666667 Thank you so much. 593 00:46:10,843.6666667 --> 00:46:12,283.6666667 Thank you so much. 594 00:46:12,343.6666667 --> 00:46:25,333.6666667 You're just a fountain of knowledge and we, anyone who listens to this is going to be better for it and, just thank you. 595 00:46:26,23.6666667 --> 00:46:26,713.6666667 Yeah, thank you. 596 00:46:26,713.6666667 --> 00:46:31,893.6666667 And if people need to find me, I guess it's gonna be in the know, everything is rich in relationship. 597 00:46:31,953.6666667 --> 00:46:33,738.6666667 That's all you need is rich in relationship. 598 00:46:33,978.6666667 --> 00:46:40,188.6666667 You can find me on multiple platforms and the website is rich in relationship and it's all I'm easy to find. 599 00:46:40,968.6666667 --> 00:46:43,338.6666667 Yes, you are me up through Lucinda. 600 00:46:43,668.6666667 --> 00:46:52,668.6666667 I just, I comment, I commented badly on your Instagram post about, about the article, but I comment, I found you on Instagram. 601 00:46:52,728.6666667 --> 00:46:53,838.6666667 Love what you're posting. 602 00:46:56,208.6666667 --> 00:46:57,108.6666667 You're on a mission. 603 00:46:58,488.6666667 --> 00:46:59,268.6666667 Thank you. 604 00:46:59,688.6666667 --> 00:47:02,328.6666667 I appreciate you seeing me. 605 00:47:03,328.6666667 --> 00:47:07,438.6666667 All right, we went way over time, but that's what happens. 606 00:47:09,28.6666667 --> 00:47:09,388.6666667 Yeah. 607 00:47:09,478.6666667 --> 00:47:16,48.6666667 Thank you again and let's keep in touch without a doubt. 608 00:47:17,908.6666667 --> 00:47:18,568.6666667 All right. 609 00:47:19,913.6666667 --> 00:47:20,33.6666667 I.
Hello and welcome to How I Ally.
This is Lucinda Koza and I am here with my second male guest ever.
I honored.
Yes.
And I'm gonna ask him to introduce himself and give a little bit of a bio backstory for our listeners.
(00:25):
For sure.
My name is Rich Heller and I have a.
Practice that I call Rich in relationship, which is also a podcast and it's in all kinds of good places.
I'll spare you the details for now.
And I work with primarily.
With couples who feel like they've lost their way that they started out in love and very passionate, and somehow they become roommates or maybe even worse than roommates.
(00:53):
Maybe they're like really unhappy roommates, which believe it or not, Lucinda is very common in our culture today.
And I have been, I've lived this and I've worked actually for years now.
With couples in this position.
And it is a passion for, it's a personal mission for me to help parents in particular to restore joy, restore a sense of prosperity, and more than money, feeling like they're living the richest emotional life possible to their marriage for themselves and for their children.
(01:28):
And my own story is part of what contributes to that, but I don't think we have a lot of time for that today.
I, of course I wanna hear your story maybe abridged, but I got a lot of years.
The short story is I grew up in a very, what we call a high conflict household, and my parents it was best for my brother and I when nobody was there.
(01:55):
It was okay, if one of them was there.
It was terrible if both of them were there.
And so part of making good out of that history is taking the lessons and the learnings that I have in my own healing and growth from growing up there and learning how to have a partnership instead of taking a hostage in my marriage.
(02:16):
And, taking those lessons and applying them professionally.
With the people that I work with.
And I, I've also done, I've got years experience working outpatient with addicts and alcoholics and their families who very much follow that pattern.
And so that's what drew me into it.
And it, it seems to be an area that not a lot of people wanna work in.
They don't like the conflict part, but I have a pretty high threshold for it.
(02:41):
Really? You mean for working.
For working on conflict for other people's crap.
I have a high threshold for other people's crap.
So if they come in the room and they explode, I'm like, okay, been there, done that.
So now what? Thank God for you.
Really, that's what people need.
(03:01):
Sometimes they need more than that, but it's a good start.
A lot of people who do the work that I do, honestly do not have they're conflict avoidant, and so they put a lot of rules around people in the, a lot of family therapists and, the folks who do this work, they put a lot of rules in the room that they're working.
You can't interrupt each other.
You can't be explosive.
You can't do that.
(03:21):
And the problem with that is that couples learn how to behave really well in the room with the counselor or the therapist, but then they can't take those rules home with them.
And it only works in a co controlled environment.
It's if an alcoholic, you went to rehab and never learned how to work, you know how to survive in the world, it's.
And so I, to some extent, part of the healing has to be letting that stuff out in front of somebody else and then having them guide you through what's that really about? What did you really want to say? What's underneath? Why are you going from zero to 60? What is the extra emotion that's showing up in the room? Because usually when we go off, there's a good reason for it.
(03:58):
But the problem is we explode right in a moment that doesn't seem to warrant an explosion.
But it's coming from some other moment and being carried into the present moment.
Exactly right and general.
And when one person goes from zero to 60, it is not unusual for the other person to feel just a little defensive, just a little tri triggered, just a little reactive.
(04:25):
And they go from zero to 60, and that just starts.
It's like a black hole of blame and anger.
There's no stopping that train once it leaves to the station, until both people are exhausted and go to their corners.
Sometimes they have good makeup sex afterwards and the throes of it, but after a while, even that goes away.
And that's just like you said the way you grow, you grew up.
(04:48):
It's just, it could be so damaging and so devastating to do that, to go into that black hole in front of your children.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Very.
And then the children I, I argue that children are gonna need therapy no matter what there's no such thing as a perfect parent, but it would be better if it wasn't quite so traumatic.
(05:19):
And if you can, it seems to me I'm not the professional here, but it seems to me that if you can show that, if you can admit you made a mistake or admit that you did something wrong, and then you can show that you're working on it that, that's something that's.
(05:41):
You're never gonna be perfect, but showing that you're trying to be better is better than nothing.
Oh, I think that's huge.
I think Ma being, making yourself vulnerable to your partner, owning your stuff is tremendous.
The only catch to that is if you're in that sort of spiral the other, the partner nine times outta 10 will see that as an opportunity to go in for the kill.
(06:12):
Like my own wife used to say to me.
No matter what I say, you just keep going.
Even when I do what you just said, she was in therapy she would come and she would stop the dynamic.
She, and she would say, yeah, I get it.
I made a mistake here.
And I would go, that's right.
You made a mistake and let me tell you all about it.
(06:33):
So like in the moment it's it when both partners are they're what we call it in therapy on amygdala hijack, when that part of the brain is active.
Both partners.
If one of 'em exposes their belly nine times outta 10, the other one's gonna be too fired up to step in and to say, yeah, thank you for saying that.
(06:57):
That takes, that, it takes getting off of getting out of that part of your brain that's fight flight or play dead and being rational.
And if the chemistry's really going.
It's almost it's, you're, if you're riding that wave of emotional rage, it's very hard to step out of it.
I'm like, kudos to my wife that she could, and it's taken some time.
Now.
We don't have that dynamic anymore and it's takes some time.
(07:19):
Now when she says, yeah, you're right.
I go, thank, I can say thank you, but that's yours.
That's work.
That's, you wanna be careful with that.
Probably the best thing is when P two people are in that spiral, step out, reset, the studies show it takes at least 20 minutes for the whole chem body chemistry to change.
(07:40):
Change.
You wanna go out for a walk and get some of that stuff outta your system.
And then maybe when both people are chill, then you can say, all right, I'm ready to own my part.
No one's a hundred percent responsible.
That's so important to.
So I mentioned before we started recording I'm really interested in why having children can.
(08:08):
For women, I know it's, there's so much going on, with hormones and changes in the brain, literally, there's so much going on.
There's postpartum rage that can happen.
But I seem to find a lot of young parents hating each other.
(08:33):
Very painful.
And also, I just wanna take a second to acknowledge the work that you're doing here with your podcast in regard to women who have just had children.
I think this something, we walk into marriage and, or if not marriage, having children.
Without a handbook, without a real understanding of what it means, no matter how many books you read, no matter how many people you talk to, you just, you can't know.
(09:00):
And so it's great that I love that you're doing this work, that you're putting it out there.
And to answer your question, two people do the fall in love thing the, and when you're in love, all your pistons are firing.
You're speaking all the love languages.
You're giving gifts.
You're spending quality time.
You're affirming each other.
(09:20):
You're touching each other.
You are, I'm missing one of the five love languages.
Every, you're doing 'em all.
And because you're like, you're in it and everyone around you is happy for you.
And even your boss is alright, so you're screwing off a little at work.
But I get it, you're in love, right? Everyone gives us a little grace for that, right? But you get you, you have a cap on that.
There's a studies show two, maybe three years if you're lucky.
(09:41):
And one person always drops out before the other.
Then, but you get married, right? And then in love, see you.
Oh, you marry me.
I do.
You get married.
And then you have those kids.
And which I said earlier, and you know from personal experience, nobody can prepare you for that.
And all of a sudden, not only you, not in love, but the two of you are trying to juggle a lopsided plate or something, right? Like having a kid is just oh my God, how do we do this? So first you're trying to figure out how to do it.
(10:08):
The woman is going through now nine months of hormone detox.
The guy, most of us guys are not even.
We don't even know the words of emotion.
Much less emotional fluency.
So we really don't, we don't know how to say what we're feeling.
We don't know how to put words to what we're feeling.
'cause we've been trained not to, my friend John Chinner was on my podcast recently talking about the man box.
(10:32):
In the man box.
There's no emotion.
You just get the job done and then, so we have no ability to really empathize with our wives, who have gone through nine months of intense hormone change.
This unbelievable experience of giving birth incredibly painful and incredibly joyful.
And then nine months of emotional change back to normal normalcy.
(10:52):
We don't, right? Only unrelatable to us, and plus we have no words.
And what I think for the men, I can't speak for the woman 'cause I haven't really, I haven't been there yet.
Gimme a life back to least to my knowledge, but speaking for the men, I think what happens is guys are linear thinkers.
They wanna fix, they wanna repair, they want, they wanna help.
(11:13):
But we don't have, we haven't given ourselves the emotional tools.
To help with this.
And this requires emotional connection.
Emotional fluency is what I call it, in Rich in relationship.
relationship And we, we barely put words to our emotion.
And I think in the frustration of trying to fix and help in ways that the wife totally doesn't need or want, receive that it looks like manipulation or control, in that state like the whole thing just explodes.
(11:44):
Yeah, and it then it triggers all that old, then the old stuff comes in, right? We're married with all of our tapes from what our parents did when we were kids start playing.
Your wife becomes your mother, your husband becomes your father, or maybe your husband becomes your mother, and, or maybe all of it, it's it gets real crazy, real fast.
(12:06):
Yeah, that's that's, yes.
Like I, I've just discovered that recently that sometimes if my husband I'm just gonna spill my beans here.
If my husband leaves the house at a, the particularly wrong second, I turn into 12-year-old Lucinda and I am feeling like my dad is abandoning the kids and the family and I mean it right away.
(12:42):
I feel I feel that.
Yeah.
And that's, that makes sense.
If that was your experience.
When you were 12 and that feeling, that experience, the programming that was our parents laid this stuff into us and we received it.
It's what worked in the envi, in our ecology.
Then if that's been laid into us and it hasn't been altered, that's gonna get triggered and it's gonna come right up and that's just how we are as human beings.
(13:08):
And so for people who are in the position of being triggered, the trick is to let go of the old emotion find.
And that takes a little work 'cause it's our unconscious mind groups.
It isn't just dad at 12, it is a bunch of other experiences all lined up to validate this belief that, when I whatever the belief is, when I really need help, they always walk out or whatever the, it's some story we make up.
(13:31):
And to let go of that, it takes some work.
And then we gotta lay in a new program, which, which is positive.
And it, and that takes takes some effort.
I do a process called mental and emotional release with clients.
That's super helpful with that.
It's very intensive, very hardcore.
And I, it's pretty much 100% effective as far as I can tell.
(13:54):
I give people a money back guarantee and no one's ever asked for it.
But, I want you to know that you are not alone.
Everybody's having this experience, not just people who have just given birth, but people in all kinds of situations, and particularly in our marriages, I've come to believe, Lucinda, that we pick our partners because we feel safe enough to unpack our stuff around each other.
(14:20):
But the problem is we didn't give each other that heads up.
Hey, heads up, I'm gonna unpack all my childhood shit and you're gonna have to deal with it.
And because they don't know that they think it's about them.
Oh.
Oh no.
That's fine.
Might be, it might be a podcast.
Please this conversation warrants colorful language.
(14:42):
I also want that, I also wanna say in your defense think about it only been over the last 50 years that guys have really had the opportunity.
To be present for their wives and their children.
So like culturally, there's, that we just, we haven't been trained into this.
And it literally is about experience and training.
(15:04):
Half of it is that, that we aren't very good with emotion.
And half of it is that this is, this territory of what masculinity is in 2025 is really new.
That is, and you talked about that in your interview, in, in the printed interview.
And I find that so that's so true.
(15:28):
For the man and for me as well because my parents, did not have that, like dynamic at all.
And I guess it wasn't really expected of my dad to be present or be, nearly as involved as I guess men are becoming today.
(15:56):
All the movement is not just towards maternity leave, but now paternity leave as well.
My daughter just had a baby six months ago and her husband had been taking paternity leave to take care of the child, and it's been crazy watching her go back to work and trust him with being the, my dad, she was the mom and now he's the my dad.
(16:21):
And and he does it completely differently there, and the baby freaked out.
The baby's wait a minute.
Where is my breast milk? That came from a warm human being instead of a bottle.
What's up with this baby? Tested the crap out of him, but he's getting there.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
That's really new.
(16:43):
When I was a kid, I, my parents got divorced when I was 12 and I chose to go live with my father after a year, which freaked him out.
Like all of his previous kids, he had shuttled off on his other wives.
I was the one who said, dad, I wanna live with you.
And the way he handled it was he imported a woman to take care of me basically.
You know who is still one of my many stepmom's today.
(17:06):
It's, and she was, she took great care of me.
Wow.
But did not know what to do.
And so he brought, he, he brought in the A team.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have, yeah.
Guys are clueless, but we're, I think we're getting a clue.
My son-in-law is an example of he's getting a clue.
(17:29):
Yeah, yeah.
It's a huge turning point, like for sexuality right now, and not only are there multiple genders, but that, that there's an opportunity for men to get out of the box, where, I'm the high planes drifter.
Who never really has relationships and, I'm always ready for warfare and like to move out of that nonsense into, oh, I'm a human, I'm a human being.
(17:55):
Human and human beings have what feelings.
It's like a whole nother planet.
Big opportunity though.
absolutely.
I've even noticed it with my father.
He, now in his he's about to turn 80.
He is very emotional now.
(18:18):
But that could also, be a bunch of other factors.
But, but yeah it's there's no box, like you said just because you have feelings and you wanna be home with the kids and wear fricking pink or whatever it, you are still, you could still be straight, there's no longer this, or at least, in the circles that I run in longer.
(18:49):
This oh, you're gay.
Oh, you're gay.
Oh, you're gay.
I heard this what did he call himself? An evolution, evolutionary psychologist or something like that.
He is been interviewed on somebody's podcasts.
And he said, and I, these were his words, right? I didn't mind making this up.
He said, the new phase of evolution is that women find men who are a little bit gay to be more attractive.
(19:13):
And he said, no.
He says, we, we can't the genes for this gayness cannot be you literally talking about this.
And I was like.
What if what you're really talking about here is that women who find men who are in touch with their feelings, are more attractive.
And so of course they can't be completely gay because then you can't have babies.
(19:34):
It's that's actually not true.
It's a little, he's got some misunderstandings, but I think the thing that he's identified is.
Emotional availability.
If toxic masculinity, that thing that we see on the internet are these guys who are like, my woman does what I say, and, I'm strong and I get what I want, and I've got the nice car's all about materialism and feelings.
(19:59):
What are those? If that's toxic masculinity, then by inference, healthy masculinity is going to be.
Ability to feel, ability to connect, ability to emote.
But I still think that the, it's hardwired into guise to be productive.
But let's just go back to so here you are, you're, you've got a new baby.
(20:22):
And things are rough.
The first thing that I would, if I were gonna write a prescription that didn't involve any outside help, just you know what the, for starters, I would say for starters, whenever you get into, and this is for anyone, but particularly in the situation that we started talking about, when you start getting into that spiral where it feels like you hate each other or you're angry at each other, or you're blaming each other, it's better to be in separate corners than to engage in that thing.
(20:50):
That's a, that it's a destructive kind of, the reason I say it's a destructive black hole is it just sucks you deeper and deeper.
And it's if a relationship is a bank account, right? When a couple does that, they are withdrawing money from the bank account.
And after a while the bank account goes into negative, right? And it seems like, why am I in this marriage? Which is a terrible experience to have when you've just had a baby.
(21:13):
And so you don't wanna draw from that bank account, you just want it like, just stop doing the negative stuff, right? If you can't put good stuff in, don't take the good stuff out by hammering each other.
That would be number one, right? Go to your corners and reset.
Then number two would be if you really wanna share feelings, there's a frame in.
(21:34):
Psychology That's real very well known.
Called I statements.
I talk about this all the time with people.
An I statement is, Hey Rich, Hey Rich.
I'm really frustrated right now 'cause I've been taking care of the baby all day.
And you come home and I'm really frustrated when I've been taking, I'm really frustrated.
(21:56):
The next part is the when.
When and the situation, you come home I've been after being at work and don't even wanna pick her, him up.
And then the, because and because when I was 12 years old, the same thing happened and I don't want to see that happen to our child.
So the, because is the really important part.
It needs to be about me.
(22:18):
The situation is what's actually happening.
The feeling is the feeling are actually happening, but the because is because it brings up in me an old memory because it brings up in me a fear.
When it starts becoming, because you are a nasty jerk and I hate you, then it's, you've blown the whole thing up.
It's become a blame statement instead of an I statement.
So start with an I statement and see if they can receive it.
(22:40):
If they can't receive the I statement if that triggers them, then they've probably got something going on big too.
Usually an I statement when properly delivered builds empathy, but sometimes when the other person's a little fired up.
It'll bring a negative response anyway.
Kinda like when my wife said to me, Hey, I get it, it's my fault.
And I'm like, ah, now I can really get her, if you're already fired up, it doesn't matter what the other person says.
(23:05):
So I statements are super powerful just for letting out that feeling.
And, you can share it with them, with saying, I, I don't need to fix this.
I don't need to change this.
I just need you to know the experience that I'm having, that it's my feeling.
The feelings are irrational.
They're not your, my feelings are not your fault, right? My feelings, this experience brings up this feeling and it has to do with who I am and you know what my expectations are or whatever I'd like.
(23:32):
It just becomes, it becomes like painting a canvas for them.
So it's like the opposite of what we do when we're frustrated.
Usually it goes like this, Hey Rich, you're such a jerk.
You came home, you didn't kiss me.
You didn't even pick up the baby.
I've been here all day.
I'm so pissed off, and it's all your fault, right? That's the opposite, right? That's what we're what we're trained to do, right? So the I statement, and here's the reason why I statements work for us, if not for them.
(24:02):
Is forcing ourselves to speak in a form.
I am feeling X when the situation because something about me, even though I wanna blame them.
I always wanna blame the other person.
I gotta tell you, Lucinda, I've had years at 30.
I still wanna blame everybody, right? I'm working on it.
I don't do it.
I don't go there.
I notice it, I move past it, but it's still present for me.
(24:23):
I got some release work to do, but because I'm sticking to that form, it keeps me from getting my amygdala that fight, flight, or play dead part of my brain.
From really getting fired up.
I notice it.
It's a little active, but be because the part of my brain that's thinking is making me stick to the format.
I stay in my rational brain.
(24:45):
Now, do not do this at the end of the day.
'Cause at the end of the day, people are hungry, angry, lonely, and tired.
They don't have a lot of impatience or emotional energy.
It's a better activity.
Like on Saturday morning or something, that's actually really important.
Yeah.
And if you are a new mother, I'm speaking of all you new MO moms out there.
If you're a new mother.
You are probably hungry, angry, lonely, and tired.
(25:06):
A good deal of the time, your body's recovering from having that baby.
Depending on how far along you are, your hormones are shifting back to normalcy, but they're still pretty churned up, and you're being woken up at all.
You're probably both being woken up at all hours of the night.
So if a couple is short on sleep, they're gonna get triggered a lot more easily.
And you're gonna get angry more easily.
(25:27):
And then feeling alone even if you're with the baby, is a lot easier.
Hungry, angry, lonely and tired are major triggers for amygdala, overreaction intensity, especially if you're like hormonally shifting and give yourself some grace.
Give yourself some grace.
Yeah.
(25:47):
I've witnessed the birth of three of them.
Two of them are other, another man's child through my wife or mine.
Now I've taken them, but I've witnessed three births, and it wasn't until we got to the last one that I really learned as a guy, learned how to be there for my wife, even though I was in the room watching it, like I we're very thick.
Creatures, men.
(26:09):
If you look at the brain structure, men and the brain structure of women we don't have a lot of connections between the two lobes, so we tend to stay very rational or very creative.
And honestly, it's more rational than creative.
And we're a little, like a little thick.
Is that, but is that true? It's hard.
(26:31):
It's true.
It's scientifically validated.
Women have more connections between the lobes.
They have greater emotional fluency.
They women have.
If I wanted to be more, if I wanted to honor the kind of gender fluidity, I would say brains that float in estrogen.
Those brains have better peripheral version vision.
Have a pickup on micro emo expressions and body language better than brains that float in testosterone.
(26:58):
If you have a brain that floats in testosterone, but you're sure you're a woman, you're still have the limitations of a brain that floats in testosterone.
If you have a brain that flows in estro and you're sure that you're a man, you still have the limitations and strengths of a brain that flows in estrogen.
This is like chemical, neurological fact.
Wow.
So women are more emotionally fluent by nature or brains that float in estrogen are more emotionally fluent by nature.
(27:24):
And guys, not only do they have a brain that's not as good at that, they can learn it.
We can learn it.
We're tr we're teachable.
But we've also got thousands of years of having it our way.
So we haven't had to, you all have had to kick ass and take names for thousands of years in a male dominated society.
So you've gotten really good at being linear and goal oriented.
That's why women are taking territory in corporate America and men are on their are heels like we haven't figured out, oh my god, we need to change too.
(27:54):
Wow.
Thank you for that.
That was very, that was beautiful.
That was a soundbite for the ages.
That was great.
I even work on those soundbites at my age.
You take all the soundbites you can get.
It is true.
It doesn't occur to especially a white, heterosexual male, maybe Christian. 347 00:28:21,451.3333333 --> 00:28:29,611.3333333 It doesn't occur to them that they might have to do some work and change. 348 00:28:29,641.3333333 --> 00:28:34,51.3333333 I will just state for the record that I am a white Christian, heterosexual male. 349 00:28:34,51.3333333 --> 00:28:37,721.3333333 So there are exceptions and by and large I would agree with you. 350 00:28:38,301.3333333 --> 00:28:41,776.3333333 But honestly African American men not so different. 351 00:28:42,181.3333333 --> 00:28:47,371.3333333 In terms of really it's, it is, or Latinos not so different. 352 00:28:47,371.3333333 --> 00:28:48,541.3333333 This is a guy thing. 353 00:28:49,81.3333333 --> 00:28:49,321.3333333 Yeah. 354 00:28:50,461.3333333 --> 00:28:53,511.3333333 White men have been in the tippy top, in our country. 355 00:28:53,871.3333333 --> 00:28:55,761.3333333 Maybe not in South Africa right now. 356 00:28:55,761.3333333 --> 00:28:59,166.3333333 That's why the president's welcoming all those white guys for over there, over here. 357 00:28:59,666.3333333 --> 00:29:02,611.3333333 But it, it's a guy thing almost universally. 358 00:29:02,631.3333333 --> 00:29:06,461.3333333 The only cultures I've heard of that that somebody brought to my attention recently that might be different. 359 00:29:06,746.3333333 --> 00:29:08,876.3333333 Are certain island communities. 360 00:29:09,116.3333333 --> 00:29:24,866.3333333 And the reason is apparently this mindset has to do with, are you at threat of war? So if you, apparently, if you live in a south Pacific island where you have, there hasn't been war in a long time, the men are much more emotionally fluent. 361 00:29:25,356.3333333 --> 00:29:26,706.3333333 And the culture is very different. 362 00:29:26,756.3333333 --> 00:29:26,976.3333333 Wow. 363 00:29:28,46.3333333 --> 00:29:36,166.3333333 So there's something about, our, being on war standing since basically the American Revolution that has built this up too. 364 00:29:37,166.3333333 --> 00:29:52,516.3333333 Women have always been down, down, even when they've been in power, like Queen Elizabeth, not the most recent one 'cause she didn't really have real power. 365 00:29:53,206.3333333 --> 00:30:14,0.3333333 I'd argue that women have power, have always had power and, it is more like it's more like there's this old, there's this old Greek thing called the master slave dialectic, right? And they used to, they the argument was that the slave had as much power as the master. 366 00:30:14,580.3333333 --> 00:30:20,180.3333333 So the master needs the slave, right? Now I'm not saying men were masters and women are. 367 00:30:22,175.3333333 --> 00:30:27,705.3333333 When men are in power or on top, they still need women and women. 368 00:30:27,795.3333333 --> 00:30:29,385.3333333 There is power in being needed. 369 00:30:29,745.3333333 --> 00:30:30,375.3333333 But I agree. 370 00:30:30,405.3333333 --> 00:30:31,845.3333333 I wholeheartedly agree. 371 00:30:31,845.3333333 --> 00:30:31,875.3333333 I. 372 00:30:32,415.3333333 --> 00:30:39,805.3333333 That we are only finally moving into a time when we are acknowledging that men and women are completely equal. 373 00:30:39,965.3333333 --> 00:30:47,195.3333333 We don't, we're not yet seeing it as women are starting to make the same money for the same jobs, but we're moving to this time. 374 00:30:47,195.3333333 --> 00:30:55,895.3333333 Now, here's this is really interesting where many couples, women are making more than the guy, and that's really what's driving it home is when the. 375 00:30:56,365.3333333 --> 00:31:00,175.3333333 Woman becomes the prime wage earner, the pri prime breadwinner. 376 00:31:00,325.3333333 --> 00:31:02,605.3333333 That forces, and I'm in a household like that right now. 377 00:31:02,605.3333333 --> 00:31:03,925.3333333 I used to be the prime wage earner. 378 00:31:03,925.3333333 --> 00:31:05,605.3333333 Now I'm not. 379 00:31:05,885.3333333 --> 00:31:07,110.3333333 It forces change. 380 00:31:07,110.3333333 --> 00:31:15,90.3333333 It forces you either wig out and leave the marriage or you start to think about what it means to be a man in a very different light. 381 00:31:18,0.3333333 --> 00:31:18,660.3333333 Yeah. 382 00:31:18,660.3333333 --> 00:31:19,890.3333333 You're forced to. 383 00:31:21,90.3333333 --> 00:31:22,215.3333333 That's great. 384 00:31:22,215.3333333 --> 00:31:22,275.3333333 Yeah. 385 00:31:23,525.3333333 --> 00:31:33,330.3333333 It's an amazing thing that's happening in our culture, but boy is it painful for all of us change, but for, we all have long marks behind. 386 00:31:35,520.3333333 --> 00:31:35,810.3333333 Yeah. 387 00:31:37,365.3333333 --> 00:31:37,605.3333333 Yeah. 388 00:31:38,55.3333333 --> 00:31:44,495.3333333 So I would say for women who are going through this transition and it seems tough, give yourself grace, be patient. 389 00:31:45,465.3333333 --> 00:31:54,345.3333333 Start, I find that use I statements just to unwind, build a community also like of other women who have been there and who are going there. 390 00:31:54,345.3333333 --> 00:31:55,395.3333333 Super important. 391 00:31:55,395.3333333 --> 00:31:55,485.3333333 Yes. 392 00:31:56,5.3333333 --> 00:31:56,995.3333333 And be patient. 393 00:31:56,995.3333333 --> 00:31:58,405.3333333 'cause this too shall pass. 394 00:31:59,155.3333333 --> 00:32:04,675.3333333 You both will learn how to show up for the child that the hormone change will come to an end. 395 00:32:04,675.3333333 --> 00:32:06,565.3333333 The freaking kid will start sleeping. 396 00:32:09,335.3333333 --> 00:32:15,935.3333333 It will get better, but right now that the change is still happening at such a high pace, it's really hard to set things straight. 397 00:32:16,805.3333333 --> 00:32:22,670.3333333 So do you, so like in your published interview. 398 00:32:23,670.3333333 --> 00:32:37,800.3333333 Do you feel like saving marriages, saving families, having a positive influence on as many marriages as you can? That, that's a, that's. 399 00:32:39,315.3333333 --> 00:32:46,190.3333333 Hugely influential on society as a whole, do you think? Yeah. 400 00:32:46,835.3333333 --> 00:32:47,465.3333333 Yeah. 401 00:32:47,525.3333333 --> 00:32:55,465.3333333 And I wanna preface this with, sometimes marriages can't be saved, right? It's, both people have to want it. 402 00:32:55,775.3333333 --> 00:32:57,545.3333333 But here's what's really important. 403 00:32:57,815.3333333 --> 00:33:10,775.3333333 All right? I started out as a divorce coach years and years ago, and bumbled into couples work when the pandemic came, 'cause nobody was getting divorced, the courts were closed, and I happened to get mediation training and couples training just before the pandemic started. 404 00:33:10,775.3333333 --> 00:33:13,535.3333333 It was like a, it was just very timely pivot for me. 405 00:33:14,60.3333333 --> 00:33:26,130.3333333 But the studies show that the children who have the highest sense of wellbeing or happiness the, these are children where both parents are married and they're working at being on the same page. 406 00:33:27,300.3333333 --> 00:33:29,430.3333333 'cause two people are never perfectly on the same page. 407 00:33:30,0.3333333 --> 00:33:37,410.3333333 The next level of wellbeing for children is children whose parents are divorced. 408 00:33:38,430.3333333 --> 00:33:41,880.3333333 And working at being on the same page in regard to the children. 409 00:33:42,390.3333333 --> 00:33:50,390.3333333 So it's more, more important for parents to be on the same page in terms of the children than, living than living married. 410 00:33:50,570.3333333 --> 00:33:57,890.3333333 The next level of wellbeing is people who are divorced, but not on the same page. 411 00:33:58,550.3333333 --> 00:34:05,0.3333333 The lowest level of child wellbeing in these studies are people who are married and kicking the crap out of each other. 412 00:34:05,480.3333333 --> 00:34:10,190.3333333 And so I would say my mission more is about helping parents get on the same page. 413 00:34:10,190.3333333 --> 00:34:11,390.3333333 If that means a part. 414 00:34:11,540.3333333 --> 00:34:19,910.3333333 I do something called parent coordination work, where people who are getting divorced and are having trouble figuring out how to parent together needs, need help getting on the same page. 415 00:34:19,910.3333333 --> 00:34:21,290.3333333 So I help them get on the same page. 416 00:34:21,440.3333333 --> 00:34:26,780.3333333 It's almost exactly the same as couples work, except the focus is the children instead of the marriage. 417 00:34:29,90.3333333 --> 00:34:29,840.3333333 Wow. 418 00:34:31,880.3333333 --> 00:34:33,140.3333333 So I, wow. 419 00:34:33,140.3333333 --> 00:34:34,580.3333333 You're thinking about children. 420 00:34:34,890.3333333 --> 00:34:38,460.3333333 Number one, parents are on the same page, number two, and married. 421 00:34:38,460.3333333 --> 00:34:41,640.3333333 Number two, parents are on the same page and divorced. 422 00:34:41,730.3333333 --> 00:34:46,830.3333333 They can't stand living with each other, but they have the same basic values and want the same thing for the children. 423 00:34:47,730.3333333 --> 00:34:52,110.3333333 Three divorced and kicking each other's butt is still better than married and kicking each other's butt. 424 00:34:52,110.3333333 --> 00:34:56,520.3333333 And it goes back to where started you were saying in very beginning of interview. 425 00:34:57,30.3333333 --> 00:35:03,360.3333333 When that dynamic is present where people are just shredding each other, it's incredibly traumatic for the children. 426 00:35:05,85.3333333 --> 00:35:05,375.3333333 Yeah. 427 00:35:07,980.3333333 --> 00:35:08,40.3333333 Yeah. 428 00:35:09,40.3333333 --> 00:35:09,530.3333333 It's, a. 429 00:35:10,795.3333333 --> 00:35:17,665.3333333 It's violence, it's witnessing violence, really emotional violence, which is something we're only just coming to recognize as a problem. 430 00:35:18,155.3333333 --> 00:35:21,395.3333333 We thought it was enough that we ended corporal punishment, or some people still do it. 431 00:35:21,395.3333333 --> 00:35:27,675.3333333 Some people still give little spanks and stuff like that, but it's actually the emotional violence that really get really hurts the children. 432 00:35:27,675.3333333 --> 00:35:28,785.3333333 It brings up a lot of fear. 433 00:35:31,425.3333333 --> 00:35:31,485.3333333 Wow. 434 00:35:31,485.3333333 --> 00:35:35,595.3333333 You're almost better off getting spanked casually than seeing your parents fight violently. 435 00:35:35,655.3333333 --> 00:35:37,125.3333333 I, no one's done that study. 436 00:35:37,125.3333333 --> 00:35:37,695.3333333 Thank God. 437 00:35:38,625.3333333 --> 00:35:47,565.3333333 I don't think, and morally we're gonna take one group of parents who smack their children with a smile and another group of parents who don't hit their children but are shredding each other. 438 00:35:47,565.3333333 --> 00:35:49,725.3333333 That's, I just don't think you can do that one. 439 00:35:50,210.3333333 --> 00:35:50,840.3333333 Yeah. 440 00:35:50,840.3333333 --> 00:35:52,220.3333333 God, no. 441 00:35:52,400.3333333 --> 00:35:54,260.3333333 That's not okay. 442 00:35:55,895.3333333 --> 00:35:56,735.3333333 Oh, man. 443 00:35:57,735.3333333 --> 00:35:58,485.3333333 Oh wow. 444 00:35:59,895.3333333 --> 00:36:13,705.3333333 I think how did you and your wife, how did you and your wife become not in that place where you were? This is my second marriage. 445 00:36:15,85.3333333 --> 00:36:15,535.3333333 Okay. 446 00:36:15,535.3333333 --> 00:36:17,635.3333333 And my wife and I both had. 447 00:36:20,170.3333333 --> 00:36:22,210.3333333 Really special first marriages. 448 00:36:22,700.3333333 --> 00:36:28,10.3333333 She was married to a guy who was very emotionally violent and I was married to a woman who was clinically depressed. 449 00:36:28,10.3333333 --> 00:36:34,730.3333333 So we came from opposite experiences and as a result, I think we both had a lot of gratitude for each other. 450 00:36:35,400.3333333 --> 00:36:43,170.3333333 We have both done a lot of work, personal work, and when that thing that I was telling you about where we would get into those fights and I just wouldn't. 451 00:36:43,815.3333333 --> 00:36:52,235.3333333 I wouldn't back off, I think because of the work that I had done when she said that, I went and worked with a professional on it. 452 00:36:52,235.3333333 --> 00:36:56,585.3333333 I was like, Hey, you know what my wife says? And guess what, it's true. 453 00:36:56,615.3333333 --> 00:36:58,25.3333333 Like first I had to admit it to someone else. 454 00:36:58,25.3333333 --> 00:37:03,15.3333333 I couldn't admit it to her 'cause I was too proud, and then once I admitted it to someone else, I could go back to her with it. 455 00:37:03,375.3333333 --> 00:37:06,345.3333333 And it's really interesting, having worked through that, a new piece. 456 00:37:07,5.3333333 --> 00:37:14,325.3333333 For us is there are things that she hasn't been talking to me about that I know bother her, that I think are based on that. 457 00:37:14,325.3333333 --> 00:37:15,345.3333333 And that was years by the way. 458 00:37:15,345.3333333 --> 00:37:16,305.3333333 That was years ago. 459 00:37:16,665.3333333 --> 00:37:27,705.3333333 I think what happens is, you work through a dynamic and then you settle into a new rhythm and then one of you does some work and you go, wow, we could be closer, but there's something in the way. 460 00:37:27,705.3333333 --> 00:37:29,565.3333333 And then they identify what that thing is in the way. 461 00:37:29,565.3333333 --> 00:37:31,395.3333333 And I sent her this email saying. 462 00:37:31,720.3333333 --> 00:37:34,480.3333333 I've noticed that you don't wanna talk about this, and this. 463 00:37:34,900.3333333 --> 00:37:38,990.3333333 And I'm not sending you this email like as a criticism and saying, when you're ready. 464 00:37:38,990.3333333 --> 00:37:40,610.3333333 I'd really like to talk about those things. 465 00:37:40,610.3333333 --> 00:37:46,590.3333333 I completely understand, given how I used to be, why it might not feel safe for you to talk about these things. 466 00:37:46,590.3333333 --> 00:37:50,280.3333333 And I want you to know I'm ready to make it safe for us to talk about them. 467 00:37:50,610.3333333 --> 00:37:53,580.3333333 And it was so funny, the first thing she said was. 468 00:37:54,780.3333333 --> 00:37:56,40.3333333 I'm not gonna talk about this now. 469 00:37:57,90.3333333 --> 00:37:57,930.3333333 We were in the car together. 470 00:37:57,930.3333333 --> 00:37:59,430.3333333 She said, I'm not gonna talk about this now. 471 00:37:59,980.3333333 --> 00:38:09,945.3333333 But that conversation's coming, that's that, that's beautiful what you said to make it safe. 472 00:38:11,745.3333333 --> 00:38:19,815.3333333 I feel like that is a huge thing that, especially the a man, because. 473 00:38:21,120.3333333 --> 00:38:27,120.3333333 I'll speak for myself, but also for all of my female friends. 474 00:38:28,350.3333333 --> 00:38:38,220.3333333 When you're with a man, there's always this thing in the back of your head that's he could beat the shit outta me or kill me. 475 00:38:38,400.3333333 --> 00:38:39,150.3333333 That's very honest. 476 00:38:41,565.3333333 --> 00:38:42,825.3333333 Most women won't own that. 477 00:38:42,825.3333333 --> 00:38:46,20.3333333 That's in there, that's really honest and that's very real. 478 00:38:48,230.3333333 --> 00:38:53,295.3333333 It's very real and emotional violence brings that right to the top. 479 00:38:55,335.3333333 --> 00:38:55,755.3333333 Yeah. 480 00:38:56,625.3333333 --> 00:39:06,645.3333333 And so if a ba, if a, and especially if your kids are there and the man becomes, the man is scary to the kids as well. 481 00:39:07,695.3333333 --> 00:39:07,725.3333333 'cause. 482 00:39:09,480.3333333 --> 00:39:16,830.3333333 Because they sense their mom is scared or because he's just so big and strong or, but it isn't the big and the strong. 483 00:39:16,830.3333333 --> 00:39:18,30.3333333 It's the feeling behind it. 484 00:39:18,780.3333333 --> 00:39:19,50.3333333 Yeah. 485 00:39:19,620.3333333 --> 00:39:25,40.3333333 This thing of emotional awareness part, one of the things that's happened with we're all equal. 486 00:39:25,880.3333333 --> 00:39:35,180.3333333 Is that when men and women get into arguments, women express their anger like very clean and upfront. 487 00:39:35,570.3333333 --> 00:39:39,380.3333333 And so guys think it's okay for them to do that, right? They think we're equal. 488 00:39:39,380.3333333 --> 00:39:40,70.3333333 I can do that too. 489 00:39:40,70.3333333 --> 00:39:40,730.3333333 And they don't. 490 00:39:41,60.3333333 --> 00:39:49,640.3333333 They don't understand that when you're 40, 50, 60, a hundred pounds bigger than your wife. 491 00:39:50,555.3333333 --> 00:40:01,595.3333333 And she picked you because one of your qualities is she knows that you're, you will take a bullet for her, but, and then you sh you turn that anger to her. 492 00:40:02,145.3333333 --> 00:40:04,785.3333333 The fear becomes you're gonna, that you are the bullet. 493 00:40:04,935.3333333 --> 00:40:07,575.3333333 It's not that you'll take the bullet and it's not conscious. 494 00:40:07,575.3333333 --> 00:40:10,630.3333333 It's not conscious, like in the rational mind. 495 00:40:10,630.3333333 --> 00:40:13,870.3333333 I'm sure you and the women who've experienced this say, oh, this is the guy I love. 496 00:40:13,870.3333333 --> 00:40:15,220.3333333 He would never lay a hand on me. 497 00:40:15,500.3333333 --> 00:40:20,540.3333333 But unconsciously, it's like when a guy is vibrating harmonically, it is spookier. 498 00:40:20,720.3333333 --> 00:40:21,830.3333333 Nine times outta 10. 499 00:40:21,830.3333333 --> 00:40:26,270.3333333 Not always spookier for the woman than when the woman's vibrating harmonically. 500 00:40:26,360.3333333 --> 00:40:30,710.3333333 And honestly, when my wife yells at me, I pretty much smile. 501 00:40:31,160.3333333 --> 00:40:33,290.3333333 I'm just like, wow, she's really letting it out. 502 00:40:33,290.3333333 --> 00:40:36,20.3333333 But if I yell at her, she takes a few steps back. 503 00:40:38,255.3333333 --> 00:40:38,745.3333333 Exactly. 504 00:40:39,55.3333333 --> 00:40:39,345.3333333 Yeah. 505 00:40:39,345.3333333 --> 00:40:40,145.3333333 And exactly. 506 00:40:40,540.3333333 --> 00:40:42,100.3333333 Guys really need to get that. 507 00:40:43,690.3333333 --> 00:40:46,0.3333333 Like what? How they express I statements. 508 00:40:46,420.3333333 --> 00:40:47,20.3333333 Okay. 509 00:40:47,620.3333333 --> 00:40:47,860.3333333 Yeah. 510 00:40:47,890.3333333 --> 00:40:50,80.3333333 But I'm so angry with you right now. 511 00:40:50,170.3333333 --> 00:40:51,70.3333333 Not gonna work. 512 00:40:51,130.3333333 --> 00:40:52,630.3333333 You know that's gotta go someplace else. 513 00:40:52,630.3333333 --> 00:40:52,660.3333333 I. 514 00:40:53,600.3333333 --> 00:40:54,410.3333333 Yes. 515 00:40:54,410.3333333 --> 00:40:56,665.3333333 It goes immediately gotta goes to the gym. 516 00:40:57,110.3333333 --> 00:41:00,120.3333333 It goes for a walk, it means calling friends. 517 00:41:00,120.3333333 --> 00:41:09,210.3333333 It means practicing some prayer or meditation or mindfulness, which we're all shown to build up the thinking part of the brain and shrink that reactionary part of the brain. 518 00:41:09,510.3333333 --> 00:41:10,920.3333333 But, most of us guys don't know that. 519 00:41:10,920.3333333 --> 00:41:13,80.3333333 We think my wife's yelling at me, so it's okay for me to yell at her. 520 00:41:13,80.3333333 --> 00:41:16,640.3333333 I'm I can't tell you how many couples I've had come in the room. 521 00:41:16,985.3333333 --> 00:41:20,945.3333333 Where I asked the wife, Hey, are you afraid of him? And she says, yeah. 522 00:41:20,945.3333333 --> 00:41:22,595.3333333 And he says I never laid a hand on her. 523 00:41:22,955.3333333 --> 00:41:24,365.3333333 And it's good freaking deal. 524 00:41:24,365.3333333 --> 00:41:25,685.3333333 You never laid a hand on her. 525 00:41:25,805.3333333 --> 00:41:27,455.3333333 She's terrified of you, dude. 526 00:41:27,765.3333333 --> 00:41:32,291.3333333 It's like what do you think she is making that up? What? She doesn't wanna be terrified of you. 527 00:41:32,800.3333333 --> 00:41:34,870.3333333 I haven't done anything to make her scared. 528 00:41:34,960.3333333 --> 00:41:39,420.3333333 It's kind guys around infidelity, right? They don't get that. 529 00:41:39,420.3333333 --> 00:41:42,930.3333333 Infidelity isn't when you are in somebody else's body. 530 00:41:42,930.3333333 --> 00:41:44,790.3333333 Infidelity starts emotionally. 531 00:41:46,95.3333333 --> 00:41:50,955.3333333 But they figure, as long as they haven't actually had physical contact, it is an infidelity. 532 00:41:50,955.3333333 --> 00:42:03,615.3333333 But they don't get that, emotionally, they, when they meet that woman at work and they start telling her those intimate secrets, they only should be sharing with their wife and start connecting with her in a way that they, he wishes he was doing with his wife. 533 00:42:03,925.3333333 --> 00:42:05,875.3333333 That in fact is is infidelity. 534 00:42:05,875.3333333 --> 00:42:10,195.3333333 It's, and for a woman that's worse than if you just went and had sex with a prostitute. 535 00:42:10,405.3333333 --> 00:42:13,525.3333333 If you had sex, at least it wouldn't be emotional. 536 00:42:13,585.3333333 --> 00:42:18,938.6666667 It would still suck, the guys just don't get that because they don't have emotional fluency. 537 00:42:20,378.6666667 --> 00:42:25,468.6666667 Most of us, But I'm working with a bunch of guys who are willing to work on this. 538 00:42:25,678.6666667 --> 00:42:27,778.6666667 It's but bringing them in is always the trick. 539 00:42:28,558.6666667 --> 00:42:37,533.6666667 I have to pitch myself to the wives as the husband whisper and they bring them in and I Yeah, so ladies, if you have a husband, you want whisper to gimme a call. 540 00:42:37,743.6666667 --> 00:42:38,13.6666667 Lemme tell. 541 00:42:39,838.6666667 --> 00:42:42,743.6666667 Lemme tell them about emotional fluency and maybe they'll be interested. 542 00:42:42,743.6666667 --> 00:42:44,93.6666667 Maybe they wanna save their marriage. 543 00:42:44,213.6666667 --> 00:42:50,543.6666667 It's not about saving the marriage though, it's maybe they want to really connect with their wife emotionally again, like they did when they first met. 544 00:42:52,298.6666667 --> 00:42:54,308.6666667 Who doesn't want that? That was freaking amazing. 545 00:42:54,488.6666667 --> 00:42:57,758.6666667 We never go back to being in love, but we can have that kind of closeness. 546 00:42:58,908.6666667 --> 00:43:00,198.6666667 And safety. 547 00:43:00,198.6666667 --> 00:43:03,228.6666667 I keep going back to that word, safe safety. 548 00:43:03,528.6666667 --> 00:43:20,168.6666667 Just a feeling of I can say whatever I can do, not abuse in an abusive way, but I can, I don't have to worry all the time if I'm, if he's gonna get mad or if in a bad mood or whatever. 549 00:43:20,538.6666667 --> 00:43:22,188.6666667 Just emotional safety. 550 00:43:24,48.6666667 --> 00:43:24,498.6666667 Yeah. 551 00:43:25,188.6666667 --> 00:43:26,58.6666667 Makes perfect sense. 552 00:43:27,108.6666667 --> 00:43:27,738.6666667 It's scary. 553 00:43:27,738.6666667 --> 00:43:34,398.6666667 It's scary when you know, when you're at home with a child and the person that you've been depending on comes back in their. 554 00:43:35,73.6666667 --> 00:43:36,513.6666667 They're vibrating. 555 00:43:39,3.6666667 --> 00:43:39,483.6666667 Yeah. 556 00:43:39,813.6666667 --> 00:43:42,713.6666667 It's almost it's almost oh, the house felt so good till he came back. 557 00:43:43,673.6666667 --> 00:43:44,63.6666667 Yeah. 558 00:43:45,113.6666667 --> 00:43:46,73.6666667 No fun at all. 559 00:43:47,183.6666667 --> 00:43:47,603.6666667 Yeah. 560 00:43:49,863.6666667 --> 00:43:50,523.6666667 You, I. 561 00:43:52,563.6666667 --> 00:43:58,473.6666667 Have you written a book? I am writing a book called on Men Masculinity and Marriage. 562 00:43:58,473.6666667 --> 00:44:00,93.6666667 I'm actually thinking that's right. 563 00:44:00,633.6666667 --> 00:44:04,833.6666667 I was think, I was thinking today, maybe it's men masculinity and emotional fluency. 564 00:44:04,833.6666667 --> 00:44:06,78.6666667 Maybe that's more important. 565 00:44:06,638.6666667 --> 00:44:06,758.6666667 I. 566 00:44:06,843.6666667 --> 00:44:12,903.6666667 Because I feel like this thing of emotional fluency, it's not just about marriage, it's about how we approach the people that we work with. 567 00:44:13,413.6666667 --> 00:44:14,973.6666667 It's spirituality. 568 00:44:15,513.6666667 --> 00:44:17,163.6666667 It's what spirituality is really about. 569 00:44:17,163.6666667 --> 00:44:22,588.6666667 Throw the religion out of the room, right? I know I put a label on myself, but it doesn't the labels don't really matter. 570 00:44:22,948.6666667 --> 00:44:34,438.6666667 Spirituality is about connection and the way we connect with people, right? And the question is, are we connecting with people just to check a box or are we really connecting with people, and so when I, if I'm at work. 571 00:44:34,963.6666667 --> 00:44:42,103.6666667 And I'm really connecting with my coworkers and I really get why they're there and what builds them up and what gives them juice at work. 572 00:44:42,353.6666667 --> 00:44:55,373.6666667 How much better is my connection and support of them, and how much better is the work we're gonna do if I do that? Or am I going there saying, Lucinda, your job description says you're supposed to be doing A, B, and C, and you seem to only be doing C. 573 00:44:55,373.6666667 --> 00:45:04,43.6666667 What's up? It's, and if you go to, actually, if you go to, there are some women founded businesses out there. 574 00:45:04,403.6666667 --> 00:45:06,893.6666667 They emotionally, they operate very differently. 575 00:45:08,393.6666667 --> 00:45:23,868.6666667 There's some women founded businesses that follow the male model, but there are, but but most of the cutting edge, rapidly growing women owned businesses operate on this model of ecological safety, environmental, within the company safety. 576 00:45:24,223.6666667 --> 00:45:31,433.6666667 And yeah, they still fire people when the job doesn't get done, but it's done in a different kind of way, and build people up more. 577 00:45:31,433.6666667 --> 00:45:37,373.6666667 And there, there's a culture of not just getting it done, but c caring while you get it done. 578 00:45:37,373.6666667 --> 00:45:38,243.6666667 It's pretty amazing. 579 00:45:38,753.6666667 --> 00:45:41,393.6666667 And I feel like that's, that is, I feel like that's where we're moving. 580 00:45:42,893.6666667 --> 00:45:43,133.6666667 Ugh. 581 00:45:44,903.6666667 --> 00:45:47,273.6666667 That's so incredible. 582 00:45:47,693.6666667 --> 00:45:50,423.6666667 It's, that's so incredible. 583 00:45:50,663.6666667 --> 00:45:51,173.6666667 It's just. 584 00:45:52,553.6666667 --> 00:45:53,213.6666667 Wonderful. 585 00:45:53,273.6666667 --> 00:45:56,273.6666667 So grow that baby up, Lucinda, go start a company and make a million bucks. 586 00:45:57,273.6666667 --> 00:45:57,483.6666667 Okay. 587 00:45:58,483.6666667 --> 00:45:59,953.6666667 Thank you so much. 588 00:46:00,553.6666667 --> 00:46:01,423.6666667 I'm frozen. 589 00:46:01,603.6666667 --> 00:46:05,293.6666667 I think you've had a couple of, you've had a couple of frozen moments. 590 00:46:05,293.6666667 --> 00:46:07,213.6666667 It's been such a pleasure to be with you. 591 00:46:07,228.6666667 --> 00:46:09,283.6666667 I, and get through a little and talk with you. 592 00:46:09,283.6666667 --> 00:46:10,243.6666667 Thank you so much. 593 00:46:10,843.6666667 --> 00:46:12,283.6666667 Thank you so much. 594 00:46:12,343.6666667 --> 00:46:25,333.6666667 You're just a fountain of knowledge and we, anyone who listens to this is going to be better for it and, just thank you. 595 00:46:26,23.6666667 --> 00:46:26,713.6666667 Yeah, thank you. 596 00:46:26,713.6666667 --> 00:46:31,893.6666667 And if people need to find me, I guess it's gonna be in the know, everything is rich in relationship. 597 00:46:31,953.6666667 --> 00:46:33,738.6666667 That's all you need is rich in relationship. 598 00:46:33,978.6666667 --> 00:46:40,188.6666667 You can find me on multiple platforms and the website is rich in relationship and it's all I'm easy to find. 599 00:46:40,968.6666667 --> 00:46:43,338.6666667 Yes, you are me up through Lucinda. 600 00:46:43,668.6666667 --> 00:46:52,668.6666667 I just, I comment, I commented badly on your Instagram post about, about the article, but I comment, I found you on Instagram. 601 00:46:52,728.6666667 --> 00:46:53,838.6666667 Love what you're posting. 602 00:46:56,208.6666667 --> 00:46:57,108.6666667 You're on a mission. 603 00:46:58,488.6666667 --> 00:46:59,268.6666667 Thank you. 604 00:46:59,688.6666667 --> 00:47:02,328.6666667 I appreciate you seeing me. 605 00:47:03,328.6666667 --> 00:47:07,438.6666667 All right, we went way over time, but that's what happens. 606 00:47:09,28.6666667 --> 00:47:09,388.6666667 Yeah. 607 00:47:09,478.6666667 --> 00:47:16,48.6666667 Thank you again and let's keep in touch without a doubt. 608 00:47:17,908.6666667 --> 00:47:18,568.6666667 All right. 609 00:47:19,913.6666667 --> 00:47:20,33.6666667 I.
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