June 27, 2025 • 42 mins
Claudia Charles-Sardine is a powerhouse appellate court attorney, but her most personal case? Advocating for her son, Justin, who is on the autism spectrum. In this deeply moving and inspiring conversation, Claudia shares how her legal training, faith, and Afro-Caribbean roots shape the way she mothers, fights systems, and builds community. From winning appeals to make sure her son gets the support he needs, to creating inclusive spaces in school and church, Claudia’s story is a masterclass in grace and grit.
Whether you’re a parent, professional, or both—this one will stay with you.
🔑 Topics We Cover:
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What it means to be an Afro-Caribbean woman in the legal field
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Navigating the special education system as a parent and attorney
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How advocacy begins at home—and extends to every child
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Letting go of shame and asking for help
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Creating access to faith, friendship, and belonging for neurodivergent kids
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The importance of sharing knowledge: “Each one, teach one”
🕰️ Timestamps:
00:00 – Meet Claudia Charles-Sardine: attorney, mother, advocate
02:00 – Growing up in Brooklyn in an Afro-Caribbean family
06:30 – Inside the appellate court system—and how it works
10:15 – Justin’s autism diagnosis: fear, faith, and fierce advocacy
14:45 – Winning an appeal for occupational therapy services
17:30 – The unseen burdens parents carry—and why we need safe spaces to vent
22:00 – A powerful moment of divine reassurance
26:00 – Why she celebrates the smallest milestones
30:00 – Empathy for all parents—and how her perspective has changed
34:00 – The social power of inclusion: from after-school to sacraments
42:30 – Building trust and support with your child’s school
46:00 – Her favorite mantra: “If I want my child to talk, I have to give him something to talk about”
👂 Listen If You’re…
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Parenting a child with disabilities
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Feeling overwhelmed in the IEP or therapy maze
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A professional learning to hold space for families
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Looking for real talk, spiritual grounding, and radical hope
📝 Connect with Claudia:
Want to reach out to Claudia? She welcomes connections from fellow parents and advocates.
📧 Email: claudiajcharles@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to how I Ally.
This is Lucinda Koza and I am joined by a very impressive and.
A little bit intimidating for all of us.
You should all be intimidated woman today.
(00:22):
Would you please introduce yourself and give a little bit of a bio or a backstory? Sure, definitely.
First of all, thank you so much for asking me to do this podcast.
I was so honored for your invitation.
So thank you so much.
Claudia Charles- Sardine and Lucinda, there's no reason to be intimidated by me at all.
(00:46):
Just a little background about myself.
I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York.
I grew up in an Afro-Caribbean household and family was very important.
In fact, it was paramount.
I have been for the last 17 years, a principal appellate court attorney for the New York State Unified Court System, and I have been married for almost 17 years now to an amazing man, Kevin.
(01:14):
And we have two absolutely, amazingly beautiful, smart, funny, rambunctious loving children.
Justin, who is 11 today as a matter of fact.
Yes.
No way.
11th birthday.
Happy birthday to Justin.
(01:36):
Thank so much.
And he's my first born and he is just.
The light of my life.
And he also happens to be on the autism spectrum.
And then I have my little Nico, who is two, going on 30 who keeps us constantly laughing and he's just such a joy and such a great addition to our family.
(01:59):
And that's just, that's me.
Those are the most important things about me, I would say.
Okay.
Okay.
Did you say that you, okay, so are your parents from Grenada? Correct? Correct.
Oh my gosh, yes.
I have been there.
Oh, have you? Amazing.
Yes.
(02:20):
I'm actually going on Monday.
Are you serious? Yeah.
We have a lot of family and just things down there that we have to take care of.
So I'm actually coming on a plane on Monday to Grenada.
Wow.
This kind of, I don't know if this is.
Strange to say like this, but it's, it feels weird to say, but but.
My husband and I had our honeymoon there.
(02:43):
Oh, beautiful.
That is amazing.
It was so amazing.
It's a great place.
It's a great place.
And it's not, yeah, so touristy as some of the other Caribbean islands, so you still get a lot of the culture.
You still get that sort of quietness, that sort of untouched, unblemished kind of Caribbean that you just love.
So good.
(03:03):
I can spend a whole day just looking at the ocean and I feel complete.
You know what I mean? Such clarity.
Such just amazing relaxation.
Yes.
That's one, one of the reasons, I totally.
Convinced him to go there.
(03:24):
I was like, this is where we have to go.
This is not going to be like all of that.
Like crazy drinking and ridiculousness.
And the underwater sculptures.
Oh yes.
Oh, you went there.
That's amazing.
Yes.
We went not scuba diving, but snorkeling.
(03:44):
Gotcha.
Right above them.
In school, like learned about them my whole life and I just never thought that I would, I'm going to get emotional.
I never thought I would see them.
It sounds like now is the time for another trip.
Come on back.
It's still beautiful and still wonderful and amazing.
(04:06):
Like you remember it.
Oh my gosh.
It oh.
Oh wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
How nice to have family there.
Oh, yes.
And a large family.
Wow.
So has Justin been there? Not yet, but we're hoping maybe unfortunately he won't be coming on this trip because this trip is a little bit more like getting some things together.
(04:30):
It's gonna be less vacation, a little more work.
But we definitely are planning for next year taking like an actual vacation and bringing the kids.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
So I'm very impressed by your career.
Oh, thank you.
And that is why, that's why I said intimidating.
(04:52):
Is it must, I can't imagine what it must take.
I can imagine what it must take as a woman.
Yeah.
In New York.
In the court system.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(05:13):
It's a great job, I have to say.
With every changing of the guard, so to speak, all of the supervisors and colleagues that I've worked with have been really great.
People who really, care about the law, who really are conscientious, smart, hardworking people.
That always expires you, it really just makes you want to do that work because you see just how everyone really wants to get it.
(05:39):
And like I said, I've been there for almost 17 years now, and a little bit about what it is that, we do.
So I work specifically for the appellate division, second Department.
So basically everything that comes up on appeal, both civil and criminal.
Throughout a host of counties.
(05:59):
The second apartment is the biggest department there is.
So we've got like Brooklyn, we've got Queens, we've got Westchester, orange, Rockland, Nassau, Suffolk the list goes on.
So it's a very busy court.
We have a lot of cases and we as appellate court attorneys, we do a lot of different things.
(06:20):
So we will review the briefs that the appellants and the respondents submit, and we go through the record and all of the relevant paperwork dealing with, whether it's a motion or a trial, et cetera.
And our job is to help the bench to really lay out what's going on, lay out the law so that the bench, that's the the judges.
(06:46):
Can, make an informed decision, and so it's really important work and it's really gratifying work.
'cause like I said, at the end of the day, we're trying to make sure that, there is justice for people and that the law is applied as it should be and, as it was meant to be and without bias, obviously.
And I feel honored to be a part of that system and to be a part of that process.
(07:09):
Wow.
That's incredible.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
So I wonder how much of that same.
Spirit or dedication or commitment or sense of getting it right or.
(07:32):
Justice or how much of that is the same when it comes to advocating for your son, that's so important.
In the past, especially when I started off on this journey you would meet some people.
(07:53):
Who I thought, was there to help.
I remember specifically after several months two of the therapists that he'd been working with recommended that I tried to get an amendment two of an IFSP, so that he could get additional occupational therapy.
(08:14):
They thought that, he really needed it.
And Justin's a very hard worker, so you know, he was making progress, but they're like, if he can get like another session a week.
I think that'll be so helpful.
And so I went through the process of trying to get this amendment and I remember that the young woman who I was supposed to basically have this conversation with and who would approve or deny it she had called earlier and she asked if I could move my appointment, to an earlier time.
(08:42):
And unfortunately I couldn't at that.
At that time.
So when I finally did get on with her, there was like this hostility from the minute I said Hello and before I could even state my case, she said listen, I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm gonna deny this because he's making progress and I don't see the need for this.
(09:04):
And immediately my blood started to boil.
And honestly it wasn't even so much the lawyer in me.
Obviously it was the mama bear in me but I called on the lawyering skills, definitely to keep my composure, to keep it professional.
And I just went through point by point, why this amendment was necessary.
(09:26):
And here was this woman who had never even seen my son, and she'd had reports from people who were working with him.
Every day saying he needed this and she denied it for some unknown reason.
So she did deny it and what I ended up saying to her at the end very calmly was, no problem.
(09:48):
You can send me the paperwork for me to take the appeal and immediately.
She just kinda stopped.
You could just tell there was like a shock and it just made me think to myself, there are a lot of people who easily get bowled over Yes.
By this kind of, hostility and this kind of I'm the professional and I know, and I'm the arbiter of what's going to happen and I think they get taken advantage of.
(10:14):
And so I think when I said very calmly, I'm going to take an appeal.
She was shocked by that, that's probably something that he doesn't hear very often, and I took the appeal and I won that appeal and he got the extra service that he needed.
Yeah.
But it just made me also feel very sad as much as vindicated, because I know that there are a lot of people out there who, they don't have the strong advocacy skills.
(10:42):
Or maybe, English isn't their first language.
Yes.
Or maybe they aren't permanent here in this country, or for any host of reasons, they just don't understand the system or can't work it and don't really have someone to really be there to help, to advocate for them and their kids lose out.
And it's very sad and it's very frustrating.
(11:03):
So for me, I feel like whenever, and if ever I can help any parent.
To navigate the system, to find programs, to advocate.
I look at like pretty much all special needs children as my children now, whatever I can do to help, I'm gonna help because a lot of people have helped me.
(11:25):
There's many things that I've found out because someone cared enough to share the information and so I really feel as a community, if you know something, I always believe in each one.
Teach one.
If you can advocate for someone else.
Advocate for someone else, because down the line, you may need someone to advocate for you and your child.
So that's just how I live my life and how I feel that, it makes sense of everything that's happening.
(11:51):
There's a reason why I was given this particular wonderful child.
And I think on a broader scale, if I hadn't had Justin, not that it wouldn't be sad to hear these stories, but it wouldn't affect me the same way.
And because it does.
That's why I try so hard, not just for him, but for, anyone that I feel needs it.
(12:13):
Oh my gosh.
That's so I, oh, because even, okay.
I am trying to leave the personal out.
But my I have twins.
And they're two, two years old.
Yeah.
And I saw online they are adorable.
(12:36):
Oh, thank you.
My, so my girl, my daughter.
Was diagnosed with autism in January.
Okay.
And it's so interesting how, like English is my first language, right? But but it would, I wonder if I would, if it would occur to me to appeal.
(13:06):
Right away.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
It probably wouldn't have occurred to a lot of people.
Yeah.
But, we have rights, and we have to be prepared and knowledgeable about using those rights.
I.
And it's hard.
It's difficult.
When Justin was first diagnosed and he was diagnosed.
Around two as well.
(13:28):
Just learning like the terminologies and all the acronyms.
I'm like, they can have a whole encyclopedia and dictionary, for autism.
Parents just learning all of these different things.
Yes, it's really difficult system to navigate, especially, just.
Starting out.
And I'm, like I said, I'm constantly learning things from people and that's why I feel like it is so important for everyone.
(13:51):
When you have some information, some useful information, don't keep it to yourself.
Share it because it there, there's so much out there, there's so much out there to know and to learn and, we really have to be as a community helping each other day by day, yes.
Just open our mouths, like we, like nonstop.
(14:12):
We should be opening our mouths.
Definitely.
Just letting it out.
Yes.
Asking questions and just, or even just venting.
Yeah, people need to vent and we need to vent in like safe spaces, right? Because yes, listen, let's be honest, there are a lot of ugly negative feelings surrounding autism or any kind of like special needs diagnosis.
(14:39):
And as a parent, we shouldn't be made to feel guilty.
Maybe we're angry, maybe we're sad, maybe we're devastated by it, yes.
That's normal.
I feel like that's completely normal and valid.
I had all those feelings when they said those words to me.
He is on the autism spectrum and like all of these different.
(15:00):
Dreams and ideas and thoughts about what his life would be.
I felt oh, that's not gonna happen now.
Or What is it gonna look like? And I had all this fear of what's gonna happen to my child when I'm not here? And yeah.
Is he gonna get taken advantage of? Is he gonna be abused, is he, all of those things that I think every parent goes through, but heightened.
(15:21):
Yeah.
It's okay.
And you don't wanna feel like you're a bad parent just because you have these negative feelings and you're not, I don't know any parent that doesn't, any good parent that doesn't worry about their child like 24 7, you have this extra added like shame or guilt.
Exactly.
(15:41):
Exactly.
All of those feelings are rational.
All of those feelings are valid and it's completely okay.
So if you get the opportunity and you have someone that you can vent to vent away, that's what I say, vent away.
Because we need it.
We need it, yes.
Because that.
(16:02):
Especially that shame is, it serves no purpose.
None.
None.
It's like it just needs to be like, yeah, exfoliated off of your spirit.
100%.
That's a great way to put it.
Just like daily or, it has to be like it builds up and you just have to 100%.
(16:27):
100%.
Because I still don't know.
Why? Why is he on the spectrum? Did I do something? Was it, something that I did or didn't do during pregnancy? You know what? What is it? But I have to move on from that because right now it's about getting him what he needs and helping him to progress and grow.
So worrying about what caused it and what I could have done, if there was anything.
(16:51):
At this point, it makes no sense.
Now it's time to work.
That's how I look at it.
Now it's time to work.
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's digging around in your.
Own shame.
Yeah, yeah.
Or Trying to figure out why, or letting some politician dig around in your shame to figure out why it's, it serves no purpose, definitely for your child.
(17:29):
Definitely.
I have a very, strong connection and belief in God.
And I will tell you this story very quickly.
When Justin got diagnosed, I'd say for about two weeks I was depressed, and I'm usually very like up and happy and I love telling jokes and just.
(17:49):
Just living life, yeah.
And my parents, they were so worried about me.
'cause obviously there was something very different, and I remember my dad was saying to me like, I think you need to join a support group.
And, trying to be very helpful as men always try to do.
I just told him, I said, dad.
You gotta let me be weak right now.
I need to be weak right now because I was always the one that was very strong in the family and when people needed something done, call Claudia.
(18:16):
But I needed to be weak at that PO at that point.
And I remember going up to my room and I took Justin with me.
And he was sleeping next to me on the bed, and I was just lying there, staring at the ceiling, feeling very sad, crying, and all of a sudden the side of my chest started going in and out, like really dramatically.
(18:37):
And I'm like, oh, great.
Now what am I having a heart attack after all of this? And I remember just sitting there and feeling it, and literally seeing it, and something just came over me and I said.
I see you, God, I feel you, God.
And I knew then that God was saying to me, do you see how I make your body move? Do you see how I am inside of you? This is something that we are going to get through together.
(19:08):
I have not pushed you into something.
I am pushing you through something.
Look at your son.
And I looked at him.
And immediately I thought somewhere there are parents sitting in a hospital room looking at their child sick with cancer and they can do nothing.
(19:32):
And here I have a healthy, happy child next to me and I'm crying like I'm about to lose my child.
And that was the last.
Tear of fear, shame, anger, hurt that I ever cried over Justin.
(19:55):
Every tear that I cry over.
Justin since then has been pride and happiness and crying from laughing because he's told a funny joke or done something silly.
That was the end of it, and I don't know, you know what listeners out here, how they feel.
Religion.
I'm not trying to advocate any particular religion or anything of that nature.
(20:16):
But if you believe in a higher power, I can tell you undoubtedly there is one, and he has not pushed you into anything.
He is pushing you through it, and he's going to be there for you and with you.
Be happy about the fact that we have beautiful, smart, funny, healthy children.
(20:41):
And that's what we have to focus on.
That's what keeps me going.
I know that, and yes, it's hard.
I'm not trying to sugar coat it.
I'm not trying to say life is amazing and you won't have any problems, but if you really focus on the blessings, I know for me, that's what propels me and that's what gets me out of bed every day.
(21:02):
And that's what says, okay, let's get going.
Because I have so many blessings in my life, I can't even count them.
And I think if people really stop and think about it, the same is true for most of us.
Yes.
Yes.
Like how dare I, how dare I be sad about my completely healthy, right.
(21:33):
Child who's walking and talking a little bit.
Yeah.
No, it's, and yeah, I get it.
And I, like I said I'm not trying to say that, having negative feelings, would happen.
And I understand that 'cause I had the same thing.
But I guess my thing is just to say, listen.
(21:54):
As, as much as it can be difficult and as much as there's things that we would love to change.
There are so many blessings that we sometimes overlook.
So just try not to overlook the blessings in a situation that is not the best situation, that is not the most fun situation, that is not the situation that you imagined you would be in.
(22:15):
Just try and find those blessings, and I think that will at least help and hopefully fortify you to do the things that you need to do to help your child.
Yes.
Gosh, yes.
Yes.
And many of the challenges.
(22:38):
Because they're just, they're challenges is what they are.
They're just, they're challenges that She has to work through and doesn't know how.
Doesn't have the tools yet.
Yeah.
And.
I don't, I, the challenges for me of course.
(22:59):
And I don't have the tools yet.
And I have to find the tools.
So it's that's really what it comes down to.
Yeah.
And the operative words, there was yet.
Yes.
Okay.
You're gonna get those tools.
She's gonna get those tools.
(23:19):
There will be progress.
Now, what I would say is that progress will probably look different than you imagined it might look.
So I always jokingly used to say, when my son was in preschool, we had this, parent support group.
And I say, when you're a mom of a nonverbal child, and thankfully he's now verbal, but at that time he was not, he was preverbal, we'll say preverbal child pre Yeah.
(23:47):
He wasn't yet.
Exactly.
Any word.
You are excited about.
So I used to say my son could curse me out and I would be ecstatic.
As long as it's articulated, it's in the right context.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Autism moms we're a different breed because the things that make us happy, other people would look at us with a raised eyebrow, but I think it's really caused me to be a better mom in that I appreciate.
(24:17):
So much more.
About my sons, and I appreciate just how hard life is to navigate.
Like just learning how to zip a zipper is the hardest thing in the world.
And when you're typically developing, it's difficult, generally speaking, it doesn't take.
(24:39):
That much to teach a child a zipper.
But when you have a child that may have some like motor issues and attention issues and other things of that nature to try to explain and how you put your hand here and what you do, it's very difficult.
So it makes you appreciate.
Just how much goes into learning and developing and growing, and I think that has caused at least myself, to really appreciate the tiniest things, the tiniest steps.
(25:15):
Like it doesn't have to be some major milestone or some major.
Breakthrough.
If he simply takes a bite of a new thing, even if he ends up spitting it out, the fact that he just took that little bite and tried it right is a major thing for me and I throw a ticket tape parade for all of these things.
So I think in a weird way, when you do have a child with special needs.
(25:42):
You come to appreciate those tiny things so much more.
You just don't take it for granted.
And I think in that sense it's made me a better mom.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
I know, like motor planning, navigating, like picking up a piece of food and like bringing it to the mouth.
(26:16):
Yeah.
That whoa.
Yeah, that took a long time.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I just.
Yeah, I could never take something like that for granted.
(26:43):
Exactly.
Exactly, but if you didn't have that child, you probably would have and not to say that, you're a bad person if you did, but you would just, would not have had that experience.
It wouldn't have seen as such a huge thing.
But it really is, and even just my outlook on kids in general, before I had kids say I'd go to a mall, I'd see a kid like freaking out and tantruming, I'd just be like, no home training.
(27:08):
All these, judgemental, like you know it all.
Yeah.
But now when I see that, I'm like, maybe that child is having sensory issues.
'Cause there's a lot of lights and sounds and movements and smells and things and the way that child on the spectrum or a child with sensory issues, processes, those things so different the way you and I would.
(27:30):
And so while it's nothing to us.
It could be physically painful to a child that has very strong sensory issues and they're trying to tell those around them like, I'm in pain.
I need to get out of here, or I need a quiet space, or whatever it is.
But from the outside looking in, you're just seeing a kid tantruming.
And oh, this is a behavioral thing and everything.
(27:52):
So it's just even made me look at, other children, other situations, and other parents very differently.
I have a new sense of empathy for, things that, that parents go through.
Yes.
That whole, that frustration that a child feels when they can't communicate.
(28:15):
Yes.
We've gone over time.
Of course.
Conversation was so good.
I didn't even notice.
I know.
I just, I loved your interview.
The, I loved both of them.
The published interviews, I just, they really.
(28:36):
Helped me a lot.
Oh, I'm glad to know that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Especially just you telling about how like the huge leaps in growth that you saw when you.
(28:58):
Put Justin in situations that were outside of his sort of comfort zone.
Yeah, I think it's important.
If I want my child to be verbal, if I want my child to be social, then I have to put him in situations where he's around verbal social children, right? That, that was my thinking.
(29:20):
But with the support, right? So I was able to find an afterschool program and I explained the situation.
I said, listen.
I have private ABA therapists who will come and will work with him on, certain structured activities, but also will help him to.
Be social, help him to initiate, help him to understand, boundaries in personal space and all those things that, you need to start learning as a child.
(29:47):
And obviously help him with the verbal skills.
And they were open to it, which was great.
And so that's what we did.
And what was so great is, especially at that age, 'cause again, he was around, three or so at the time when he started.
Kids at that age they just see a new friend.
They're not really understanding, what's going on.
They don't have all these like judgements and things of that nature.
(30:10):
So Justin was just a new friend.
He might have seemed a little different, but they still wanted to play with him.
They still wanted to hang out with him and interact with him, and it just would just.
Make me feel so good when I would come and pick him up and we're leaving and he had a little friend.
Go, bye Justin.
Bye Justin.
And you could tell that they liked him and he was a friend just like any other friend.
And I really saw him blossom.
(30:31):
I.
I saw him blossom verbally, because he wanted to interact with them.
He wanted to have conversations with them.
They looked like him, they were little people just like him.
Yeah.
And definitely become more social because once he learned how to say hi and bye, he was now saying hi and bye to his friends.
When I would come pick him up, or, if someone was leaving before him, he would say, bye Josh, or something like that.
(30:55):
And so I saw.
So much growth in him putting him in situations where he was around neurotypical children.
And it's so interesting because when he was evaluated.
By a psychologist for purposes of like school and updating the IEP, she told me herself, she was like, that was a really good thing that you did, because she said so much of his learning actually came from just being in that afterschool program and being around neurotypical children and having that support to help him to navigate.
(31:31):
That particular environment.
And I credit that a lot and I'm just, again, God led me there, and and it really ended up being like a really good decision for me.
That's that's so important to share.
Because.
That real, that had an effect.
And it inspired me to, 'cause my daughter's had been getting services at home and and it actually inspired me to, I've gotta get all emotional.
(32:02):
It, I it really made me realize I.
She needs to be around other children.
Definitely.
Definitely.
It I do believe that it really helps, and I think give it a try, Yeah.
That, that's my mantra.
Give it a whirl.
See what happens, yeah.
'cause of, God forbid, it just, it's not right.
(32:24):
You can always change, but I, you gotta.
Try these opportunities.
You gotta, take these leaps.
But I do think that there is something, very helpful and about being around other children because they wanna interact and, they, they wanna participate.
And I think that's a very motivating factor for a lot of kids.
I'm a big advocate of, letting your kids on the spectrum.
(32:47):
Try everything, because I always said this, if I want Justin to talk.
I gotta give him something to talk about.
So he's gotta have experiences, he's gotta have those experiences and I feel that's the case for every child, yeah.
The same way that if for your son, you'd have him try, soccer, this or that, or what have you.
Have your daughter tried the same things, you know exactly what she likes.
(33:08):
Because once they get something, they really like, trust me, they go all in, and they're great at it, yeah.
And why would I keep her, limited and locked away, or, that's not, that's ha that's horrible to do to a child.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah and also what I keep thinking about what you said about, let them see that there are so many different kinds of human beings.
(33:39):
Definitely.
I want her to see, I want her to know the tapestry.
Not just some kind of bubble.
Definitely.
Definitely.
(33:59):
I agree.
100%.
100%.
They're so empathetic.
They're, they're just Yes, they are.
Yes.
Yeah.
They're so empathetic.
Definitely.
They're on a, they're on a different wavelength than we are, but it's it's amazing though.
It's amazing the way the minds work, and they are just generally speaking, the sweetest, most compassionate, just genuinely great kids.
(34:25):
Justin a couple of weeks ago made his first communion and there was times when I thought to myself, he may not be able to do his sacraments 'cause where am I gonna find like a program that'll.
Take him and this and that and everything like that.
And once again, God, me Led, led me straight to it.
The same church where Nico got baptized, which actually was the attached to the Catholic school that I went to back when I was like in, second to eighth grade.
(34:50):
Wow.
Actually had a Sunday school program and they've had a couple of kids on the spectrum and they were like, yeah, bring him.
And I was in Sunday school with him.
Every Sunday, sitting there in the classroom just to help him through, right? But they were so kind to him, so patient to him and to see him up there with his class and his.
(35:10):
Gorgeous white tuxedo.
Oh my boy was looking so good and granted he went up to the priest, asked him his name, shook his hand, went off script.
He was like shaking hands and everything.
But, people understood and people thought it was.
Sweet.
And people thought it was cute and nobody bopped at it.
And everybody was so kind and welcoming.
(35:31):
And people came up to me and they were like, I'm so proud of him.
And they were telling me, I'm so proud of you, but I'm like, honestly, it wasn't me.
It was Justin and God, that's all it is.
Okay.
To me it's Justin and God and, but it felt so good to know.
That space was there for him, so that as a young Catholic, he can get his sacraments just like any other young Catholic, 'cause I'm like, he's so genuine, he's so sweet, he's so loving.
(35:55):
He needs to be able to have all of these experiences and be welcomed into the full Catholic family.
And luckily I was able to find that program and work with them.
And I think that's a big thing is to be able to.
Locate these programs, work with them show them how much you are willing to put into it.
(36:17):
If they know that they're gonna get supported, they're willing to do the work.
Nine outta 10 times.
That's what I have found.
And the fact that I was there every week with him, I think that they were like, we can work with that.
And to their credit, there was one or two weeks where I wasn't feeling well or something, and I said, is it okay if I just drop him off? They're like, yes.
Because at that point, he knew the routine and he knew everybody and they knew him and they loved him and they were able to do that.
(36:43):
But I still felt.
I wanna make sure that they understand that I support them as much as they're supporting him.
And so that's why I was there.
I do that with their, with his schools.
I do that with anything that he's in.
I wanna make sure that you know that I am going to support you guys as you support my son.
That is just brilliant and that is so empowering.
(37:14):
As a mother.
Yeah, because I'm thinking, I'm just thinking of so many things that, I wanna support her in doing.
Like Girl Scouts and Right.
Science of course, camp.
And I just want, I want her to be able to do everything.
(37:35):
Yeah.
Listen.
And she can try all of those things.
See what she likes, and like I said, I think.
What sometimes parents don't realize is that, these programs, they need us as much as we need them.
So when they really feel like you are an involved parent and you're there, and if they need something, they can call on you.
(37:57):
That helps them to invest in your child even more.
And I'm a strong advocate of that.
Like with his school, I am the parent that they call on for open houses to come and speak in open houses.
They know if they need anything for any event, they can call Claudia.
My husband does audio engineering when they have events.
He offers his services for free of charge to, help with the audio.
(38:18):
Like we make sure that they understand that as a.
We are supporting them because they support him.
And I feel like beyond the fact that Justin is so adorable and sweet and wonderful, and all those things that make them love him anyway, knowing how much we appreciate them and showing them and supporting them the way we do, makes them want to invest in him even more.
(38:44):
Yes.
And that's the key.
I've told parents many times.
Don't just drop your child off at school.
Make sure your school knows exactly who you are, what you look like, keep, constant communication with them.
If there is, join the PTA if you can join the PTA.
If there are events and they need parent volunteers and you can do it.
(39:07):
Let them see that you support them.
As they support your child, and trust me, anything that you need from them, they're gonna bend over backwards to try and get it for you.
Oh, that, yes.
Yes.
That is and I can vouch for this because I spoke with the PR person for your son's school, like several times, right? Oh boy.
(39:33):
They definitely have your interest in mind.
Yes.
Because they know how I feel about that school, and I tell them all the time for your listeners, is Manhattan Star Academy.
It is amazing.
School.
I cannot say enough about it, how much he's grown there, how much they love my son, how they care for him, how creative, how hardworking, how passionate, how talented they are.
(39:59):
It's an amazing place and I'm so thankful that he's there.
I looked, I was looking at the website and I was like.
If we lived in New Jersey.
I was thinking if we lived in Manhattan this, I think this is where we would wanna be.
I tell you, I live in Brooklyn and it's a good almost two hour drive for him every day.
(40:25):
Bless his Wow.
Yeah.
But he travels well, which is a good thing.
Oh, that's good.
But it was just that good that I'm like.
Yeah, we gotta do it.
Yeah, we gotta do it.
Yeah.
And I don't regret it, worth it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Worth it, definitely.
Wow.
See those, when you find those people that really care.
(40:50):
Yeah.
Priceless.
Yes.
Priceless.
Oh, it has been so incredible talking with you.
You as well.
Thank you so much again.
I was so honored and appreciated to get your invitation.
Thank you so much.
(41:11):
I'm just so inspired by you and.
Everything.
How you've advocated for your son and also how you allow, you don't judge, you don't judge yourself for not being perfect because nobody's perfect.
(41:31):
No one is correct.
Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah, and listen, if you or any of your listeners would like to reach out to me, feel free.
My email is Claudia, C-L-A-U-D-I-A-J Charles C-H-A-R-L-E-S, at gmail.com.
(41:53):
I'd be happy to speak with anyone.
Anything that I can do, even if, I don't know, I might be able, I might know someone who knows someone, but again, each one teach one and we'll get through it together.
Yes.
Yep.
That's the only way.
That's the only way.
Definitely.
(42:15):
Definitely.
All right.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Hello and welcome to how I Ally.
This is Lucinda Koza and I am joined by a very impressive and.
A little bit intimidating for all of us.
You should all be intimidated woman today.
(00:22):
Would you please introduce yourself and give a little bit of a bio or a backstory? Sure, definitely.
First of all, thank you so much for asking me to do this podcast.
I was so honored for your invitation.
So thank you so much.
Claudia Charles- Sardine and Lucinda, there's no reason to be intimidated by me at all.
(00:46):
Just a little background about myself.
I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York.
I grew up in an Afro-Caribbean household and family was very important.
In fact, it was paramount.
I have been for the last 17 years, a principal appellate court attorney for the New York State Unified Court System, and I have been married for almost 17 years now to an amazing man, Kevin.
(01:14):
And we have two absolutely, amazingly beautiful, smart, funny, rambunctious loving children.
Justin, who is 11 today as a matter of fact.
Yes.
No way.
11th birthday.
Happy birthday to Justin.
(01:36):
Thank so much.
And he's my first born and he is just.
The light of my life.
And he also happens to be on the autism spectrum.
And then I have my little Nico, who is two, going on 30 who keeps us constantly laughing and he's just such a joy and such a great addition to our family.
(01:59):
And that's just, that's me.
Those are the most important things about me, I would say.
Okay.
Okay.
Did you say that you, okay, so are your parents from Grenada? Correct? Correct.
Oh my gosh, yes.
I have been there.
Oh, have you? Amazing.
Yes.
(02:20):
I'm actually going on Monday.
Are you serious? Yeah.
We have a lot of family and just things down there that we have to take care of.
So I'm actually coming on a plane on Monday to Grenada.
Wow.
This kind of, I don't know if this is.
Strange to say like this, but it's, it feels weird to say, but but.
My husband and I had our honeymoon there.
(02:43):
Oh, beautiful.
That is amazing.
It was so amazing.
It's a great place.
It's a great place.
And it's not, yeah, so touristy as some of the other Caribbean islands, so you still get a lot of the culture.
You still get that sort of quietness, that sort of untouched, unblemished kind of Caribbean that you just love.
So good.
(03:03):
I can spend a whole day just looking at the ocean and I feel complete.
You know what I mean? Such clarity.
Such just amazing relaxation.
Yes.
That's one, one of the reasons, I totally.
Convinced him to go there.
(03:24):
I was like, this is where we have to go.
This is not going to be like all of that.
Like crazy drinking and ridiculousness.
And the underwater sculptures.
Oh yes.
Oh, you went there.
That's amazing.
Yes.
We went not scuba diving, but snorkeling.
(03:44):
Gotcha.
Right above them.
In school, like learned about them my whole life and I just never thought that I would, I'm going to get emotional.
I never thought I would see them.
It sounds like now is the time for another trip.
Come on back.
It's still beautiful and still wonderful and amazing.
(04:06):
Like you remember it.
Oh my gosh.
It oh.
Oh wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
How nice to have family there.
Oh, yes.
And a large family.
Wow.
So has Justin been there? Not yet, but we're hoping maybe unfortunately he won't be coming on this trip because this trip is a little bit more like getting some things together.
(04:30):
It's gonna be less vacation, a little more work.
But we definitely are planning for next year taking like an actual vacation and bringing the kids.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
So I'm very impressed by your career.
Oh, thank you.
And that is why, that's why I said intimidating.
(04:52):
Is it must, I can't imagine what it must take.
I can imagine what it must take as a woman.
Yeah.
In New York.
In the court system.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(05:13):
It's a great job, I have to say.
With every changing of the guard, so to speak, all of the supervisors and colleagues that I've worked with have been really great.
People who really, care about the law, who really are conscientious, smart, hardworking people.
That always expires you, it really just makes you want to do that work because you see just how everyone really wants to get it.
(05:39):
And like I said, I've been there for almost 17 years now, and a little bit about what it is that, we do.
So I work specifically for the appellate division, second Department.
So basically everything that comes up on appeal, both civil and criminal.
Throughout a host of counties.
(05:59):
The second apartment is the biggest department there is.
So we've got like Brooklyn, we've got Queens, we've got Westchester, orange, Rockland, Nassau, Suffolk the list goes on.
So it's a very busy court.
We have a lot of cases and we as appellate court attorneys, we do a lot of different things.
(06:20):
So we will review the briefs that the appellants and the respondents submit, and we go through the record and all of the relevant paperwork dealing with, whether it's a motion or a trial, et cetera.
And our job is to help the bench to really lay out what's going on, lay out the law so that the bench, that's the the judges.
(06:46):
Can, make an informed decision, and so it's really important work and it's really gratifying work.
'cause like I said, at the end of the day, we're trying to make sure that, there is justice for people and that the law is applied as it should be and, as it was meant to be and without bias, obviously.
And I feel honored to be a part of that system and to be a part of that process.
(07:09):
Wow.
That's incredible.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
So I wonder how much of that same.
Spirit or dedication or commitment or sense of getting it right or.
(07:32):
Justice or how much of that is the same when it comes to advocating for your son, that's so important.
In the past, especially when I started off on this journey you would meet some people.
(07:53):
Who I thought, was there to help.
I remember specifically after several months two of the therapists that he'd been working with recommended that I tried to get an amendment two of an IFSP, so that he could get additional occupational therapy.
(08:14):
They thought that, he really needed it.
And Justin's a very hard worker, so you know, he was making progress, but they're like, if he can get like another session a week.
I think that'll be so helpful.
And so I went through the process of trying to get this amendment and I remember that the young woman who I was supposed to basically have this conversation with and who would approve or deny it she had called earlier and she asked if I could move my appointment, to an earlier time.
(08:42):
And unfortunately I couldn't at that.
At that time.
So when I finally did get on with her, there was like this hostility from the minute I said Hello and before I could even state my case, she said listen, I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm gonna deny this because he's making progress and I don't see the need for this.
(09:04):
And immediately my blood started to boil.
And honestly it wasn't even so much the lawyer in me.
Obviously it was the mama bear in me but I called on the lawyering skills, definitely to keep my composure, to keep it professional.
And I just went through point by point, why this amendment was necessary.
(09:26):
And here was this woman who had never even seen my son, and she'd had reports from people who were working with him.
Every day saying he needed this and she denied it for some unknown reason.
So she did deny it and what I ended up saying to her at the end very calmly was, no problem.
(09:48):
You can send me the paperwork for me to take the appeal and immediately.
She just kinda stopped.
You could just tell there was like a shock and it just made me think to myself, there are a lot of people who easily get bowled over Yes.
By this kind of, hostility and this kind of I'm the professional and I know, and I'm the arbiter of what's going to happen and I think they get taken advantage of.
(10:14):
And so I think when I said very calmly, I'm going to take an appeal.
She was shocked by that, that's probably something that he doesn't hear very often, and I took the appeal and I won that appeal and he got the extra service that he needed.
Yeah.
But it just made me also feel very sad as much as vindicated, because I know that there are a lot of people out there who, they don't have the strong advocacy skills.
(10:42):
Or maybe, English isn't their first language.
Yes.
Or maybe they aren't permanent here in this country, or for any host of reasons, they just don't understand the system or can't work it and don't really have someone to really be there to help, to advocate for them and their kids lose out.
And it's very sad and it's very frustrating.
(11:03):
So for me, I feel like whenever, and if ever I can help any parent.
To navigate the system, to find programs, to advocate.
I look at like pretty much all special needs children as my children now, whatever I can do to help, I'm gonna help because a lot of people have helped me.
(11:25):
There's many things that I've found out because someone cared enough to share the information and so I really feel as a community, if you know something, I always believe in each one.
Teach one.
If you can advocate for someone else.
Advocate for someone else, because down the line, you may need someone to advocate for you and your child.
So that's just how I live my life and how I feel that, it makes sense of everything that's happening.
(11:51):
There's a reason why I was given this particular wonderful child.
And I think on a broader scale, if I hadn't had Justin, not that it wouldn't be sad to hear these stories, but it wouldn't affect me the same way.
And because it does.
That's why I try so hard, not just for him, but for, anyone that I feel needs it.
(12:13):
Oh my gosh.
That's so I, oh, because even, okay.
I am trying to leave the personal out.
But my I have twins.
And they're two, two years old.
Yeah.
And I saw online they are adorable.
(12:36):
Oh, thank you.
My, so my girl, my daughter.
Was diagnosed with autism in January.
Okay.
And it's so interesting how, like English is my first language, right? But but it would, I wonder if I would, if it would occur to me to appeal.
(13:06):
Right away.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
It probably wouldn't have occurred to a lot of people.
Yeah.
But, we have rights, and we have to be prepared and knowledgeable about using those rights.
I.
And it's hard.
It's difficult.
When Justin was first diagnosed and he was diagnosed.
Around two as well.
(13:28):
Just learning like the terminologies and all the acronyms.
I'm like, they can have a whole encyclopedia and dictionary, for autism.
Parents just learning all of these different things.
Yes, it's really difficult system to navigate, especially, just.
Starting out.
And I'm, like I said, I'm constantly learning things from people and that's why I feel like it is so important for everyone.
(13:51):
When you have some information, some useful information, don't keep it to yourself.
Share it because it there, there's so much out there, there's so much out there to know and to learn and, we really have to be as a community helping each other day by day, yes.
Just open our mouths, like we, like nonstop.
(14:12):
We should be opening our mouths.
Definitely.
Just letting it out.
Yes.
Asking questions and just, or even just venting.
Yeah, people need to vent and we need to vent in like safe spaces, right? Because yes, listen, let's be honest, there are a lot of ugly negative feelings surrounding autism or any kind of like special needs diagnosis.
(14:39):
And as a parent, we shouldn't be made to feel guilty.
Maybe we're angry, maybe we're sad, maybe we're devastated by it, yes.
That's normal.
I feel like that's completely normal and valid.
I had all those feelings when they said those words to me.
He is on the autism spectrum and like all of these different.
(15:00):
Dreams and ideas and thoughts about what his life would be.
I felt oh, that's not gonna happen now.
Or What is it gonna look like? And I had all this fear of what's gonna happen to my child when I'm not here? And yeah.
Is he gonna get taken advantage of? Is he gonna be abused, is he, all of those things that I think every parent goes through, but heightened.
(15:21):
Yeah.
It's okay.
And you don't wanna feel like you're a bad parent just because you have these negative feelings and you're not, I don't know any parent that doesn't, any good parent that doesn't worry about their child like 24 7, you have this extra added like shame or guilt.
Exactly.
(15:41):
Exactly.
All of those feelings are rational.
All of those feelings are valid and it's completely okay.
So if you get the opportunity and you have someone that you can vent to vent away, that's what I say, vent away.
Because we need it.
We need it, yes.
Because that.
(16:02):
Especially that shame is, it serves no purpose.
None.
None.
It's like it just needs to be like, yeah, exfoliated off of your spirit.
100%.
That's a great way to put it.
Just like daily or, it has to be like it builds up and you just have to 100%.
(16:27):
100%.
Because I still don't know.
Why? Why is he on the spectrum? Did I do something? Was it, something that I did or didn't do during pregnancy? You know what? What is it? But I have to move on from that because right now it's about getting him what he needs and helping him to progress and grow.
So worrying about what caused it and what I could have done, if there was anything.
(16:51):
At this point, it makes no sense.
Now it's time to work.
That's how I look at it.
Now it's time to work.
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's digging around in your.
Own shame.
Yeah, yeah.
Or Trying to figure out why, or letting some politician dig around in your shame to figure out why it's, it serves no purpose, definitely for your child.
(17:29):
Definitely.
I have a very, strong connection and belief in God.
And I will tell you this story very quickly.
When Justin got diagnosed, I'd say for about two weeks I was depressed, and I'm usually very like up and happy and I love telling jokes and just.
(17:49):
Just living life, yeah.
And my parents, they were so worried about me.
'cause obviously there was something very different, and I remember my dad was saying to me like, I think you need to join a support group.
And, trying to be very helpful as men always try to do.
I just told him, I said, dad.
You gotta let me be weak right now.
I need to be weak right now because I was always the one that was very strong in the family and when people needed something done, call Claudia.
(18:16):
But I needed to be weak at that PO at that point.
And I remember going up to my room and I took Justin with me.
And he was sleeping next to me on the bed, and I was just lying there, staring at the ceiling, feeling very sad, crying, and all of a sudden the side of my chest started going in and out, like really dramatically.
(18:37):
And I'm like, oh, great.
Now what am I having a heart attack after all of this? And I remember just sitting there and feeling it, and literally seeing it, and something just came over me and I said.
I see you, God, I feel you, God.
And I knew then that God was saying to me, do you see how I make your body move? Do you see how I am inside of you? This is something that we are going to get through together.
(19:08):
I have not pushed you into something.
I am pushing you through something.
Look at your son.
And I looked at him.
And immediately I thought somewhere there are parents sitting in a hospital room looking at their child sick with cancer and they can do nothing.
(19:32):
And here I have a healthy, happy child next to me and I'm crying like I'm about to lose my child.
And that was the last.
Tear of fear, shame, anger, hurt that I ever cried over Justin.
(19:55):
Every tear that I cry over.
Justin since then has been pride and happiness and crying from laughing because he's told a funny joke or done something silly.
That was the end of it, and I don't know, you know what listeners out here, how they feel.
Religion.
I'm not trying to advocate any particular religion or anything of that nature.
(20:16):
But if you believe in a higher power, I can tell you undoubtedly there is one, and he has not pushed you into anything.
He is pushing you through it, and he's going to be there for you and with you.
Be happy about the fact that we have beautiful, smart, funny, healthy children.
(20:41):
And that's what we have to focus on.
That's what keeps me going.
I know that, and yes, it's hard.
I'm not trying to sugar coat it.
I'm not trying to say life is amazing and you won't have any problems, but if you really focus on the blessings, I know for me, that's what propels me and that's what gets me out of bed every day.
(21:02):
And that's what says, okay, let's get going.
Because I have so many blessings in my life, I can't even count them.
And I think if people really stop and think about it, the same is true for most of us.
Yes.
Yes.
Like how dare I, how dare I be sad about my completely healthy, right.
(21:33):
Child who's walking and talking a little bit.
Yeah.
No, it's, and yeah, I get it.
And I, like I said I'm not trying to say that, having negative feelings, would happen.
And I understand that 'cause I had the same thing.
But I guess my thing is just to say, listen.
(21:54):
As, as much as it can be difficult and as much as there's things that we would love to change.
There are so many blessings that we sometimes overlook.
So just try not to overlook the blessings in a situation that is not the best situation, that is not the most fun situation, that is not the situation that you imagined you would be in.
(22:15):
Just try and find those blessings, and I think that will at least help and hopefully fortify you to do the things that you need to do to help your child.
Yes.
Gosh, yes.
Yes.
And many of the challenges.
(22:38):
Because they're just, they're challenges is what they are.
They're just, they're challenges that She has to work through and doesn't know how.
Doesn't have the tools yet.
Yeah.
And.
I don't, I, the challenges for me of course.
(22:59):
And I don't have the tools yet.
And I have to find the tools.
So it's that's really what it comes down to.
Yeah.
And the operative words, there was yet.
Yes.
Okay.
You're gonna get those tools.
She's gonna get those tools.
(23:19):
There will be progress.
Now, what I would say is that progress will probably look different than you imagined it might look.
So I always jokingly used to say, when my son was in preschool, we had this, parent support group.
And I say, when you're a mom of a nonverbal child, and thankfully he's now verbal, but at that time he was not, he was preverbal, we'll say preverbal child pre Yeah.
(23:47):
He wasn't yet.
Exactly.
Any word.
You are excited about.
So I used to say my son could curse me out and I would be ecstatic.
As long as it's articulated, it's in the right context.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Autism moms we're a different breed because the things that make us happy, other people would look at us with a raised eyebrow, but I think it's really caused me to be a better mom in that I appreciate.
(24:17):
So much more.
About my sons, and I appreciate just how hard life is to navigate.
Like just learning how to zip a zipper is the hardest thing in the world.
And when you're typically developing, it's difficult, generally speaking, it doesn't take.
(24:39):
That much to teach a child a zipper.
But when you have a child that may have some like motor issues and attention issues and other things of that nature to try to explain and how you put your hand here and what you do, it's very difficult.
So it makes you appreciate.
Just how much goes into learning and developing and growing, and I think that has caused at least myself, to really appreciate the tiniest things, the tiniest steps.
(25:15):
Like it doesn't have to be some major milestone or some major.
Breakthrough.
If he simply takes a bite of a new thing, even if he ends up spitting it out, the fact that he just took that little bite and tried it right is a major thing for me and I throw a ticket tape parade for all of these things.
So I think in a weird way, when you do have a child with special needs.
(25:42):
You come to appreciate those tiny things so much more.
You just don't take it for granted.
And I think in that sense it's made me a better mom.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
I know, like motor planning, navigating, like picking up a piece of food and like bringing it to the mouth.
(26:16):
Yeah.
That whoa.
Yeah, that took a long time.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I just.
Yeah, I could never take something like that for granted.
(26:43):
Exactly.
Exactly, but if you didn't have that child, you probably would have and not to say that, you're a bad person if you did, but you would just, would not have had that experience.
It wouldn't have seen as such a huge thing.
But it really is, and even just my outlook on kids in general, before I had kids say I'd go to a mall, I'd see a kid like freaking out and tantruming, I'd just be like, no home training.
(27:08):
All these, judgemental, like you know it all.
Yeah.
But now when I see that, I'm like, maybe that child is having sensory issues.
'Cause there's a lot of lights and sounds and movements and smells and things and the way that child on the spectrum or a child with sensory issues, processes, those things so different the way you and I would.
(27:30):
And so while it's nothing to us.
It could be physically painful to a child that has very strong sensory issues and they're trying to tell those around them like, I'm in pain.
I need to get out of here, or I need a quiet space, or whatever it is.
But from the outside looking in, you're just seeing a kid tantruming.
And oh, this is a behavioral thing and everything.
(27:52):
So it's just even made me look at, other children, other situations, and other parents very differently.
I have a new sense of empathy for, things that, that parents go through.
Yes.
That whole, that frustration that a child feels when they can't communicate.
(28:15):
Yes.
We've gone over time.
Of course.
Conversation was so good.
I didn't even notice.
I know.
I just, I loved your interview.
The, I loved both of them.
The published interviews, I just, they really.
(28:36):
Helped me a lot.
Oh, I'm glad to know that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Especially just you telling about how like the huge leaps in growth that you saw when you.
(28:58):
Put Justin in situations that were outside of his sort of comfort zone.
Yeah, I think it's important.
If I want my child to be verbal, if I want my child to be social, then I have to put him in situations where he's around verbal social children, right? That, that was my thinking.
(29:20):
But with the support, right? So I was able to find an afterschool program and I explained the situation.
I said, listen.
I have private ABA therapists who will come and will work with him on, certain structured activities, but also will help him to.
Be social, help him to initiate, help him to understand, boundaries in personal space and all those things that, you need to start learning as a child.
(29:47):
And obviously help him with the verbal skills.
And they were open to it, which was great.
And so that's what we did.
And what was so great is, especially at that age, 'cause again, he was around, three or so at the time when he started.
Kids at that age they just see a new friend.
They're not really understanding, what's going on.
They don't have all these like judgements and things of that nature.
(30:10):
So Justin was just a new friend.
He might have seemed a little different, but they still wanted to play with him.
They still wanted to hang out with him and interact with him, and it just would just.
Make me feel so good when I would come and pick him up and we're leaving and he had a little friend.
Go, bye Justin.
Bye Justin.
And you could tell that they liked him and he was a friend just like any other friend.
And I really saw him blossom.
(30:31):
I.
I saw him blossom verbally, because he wanted to interact with them.
He wanted to have conversations with them.
They looked like him, they were little people just like him.
Yeah.
And definitely become more social because once he learned how to say hi and bye, he was now saying hi and bye to his friends.
When I would come pick him up, or, if someone was leaving before him, he would say, bye Josh, or something like that.
(30:55):
And so I saw.
So much growth in him putting him in situations where he was around neurotypical children.
And it's so interesting because when he was evaluated.
By a psychologist for purposes of like school and updating the IEP, she told me herself, she was like, that was a really good thing that you did, because she said so much of his learning actually came from just being in that afterschool program and being around neurotypical children and having that support to help him to navigate.
(31:31):
That particular environment.
And I credit that a lot and I'm just, again, God led me there, and and it really ended up being like a really good decision for me.
That's that's so important to share.
Because.
That real, that had an effect.
And it inspired me to, 'cause my daughter's had been getting services at home and and it actually inspired me to, I've gotta get all emotional.
(32:02):
It, I it really made me realize I.
She needs to be around other children.
Definitely.
Definitely.
It I do believe that it really helps, and I think give it a try, Yeah.
That, that's my mantra.
Give it a whirl.
See what happens, yeah.
'cause of, God forbid, it just, it's not right.
(32:24):
You can always change, but I, you gotta.
Try these opportunities.
You gotta, take these leaps.
But I do think that there is something, very helpful and about being around other children because they wanna interact and, they, they wanna participate.
And I think that's a very motivating factor for a lot of kids.
I'm a big advocate of, letting your kids on the spectrum.
(32:47):
Try everything, because I always said this, if I want Justin to talk.
I gotta give him something to talk about.
So he's gotta have experiences, he's gotta have those experiences and I feel that's the case for every child, yeah.
The same way that if for your son, you'd have him try, soccer, this or that, or what have you.
Have your daughter tried the same things, you know exactly what she likes.
(33:08):
Because once they get something, they really like, trust me, they go all in, and they're great at it, yeah.
And why would I keep her, limited and locked away, or, that's not, that's ha that's horrible to do to a child.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah and also what I keep thinking about what you said about, let them see that there are so many different kinds of human beings.
(33:39):
Definitely.
I want her to see, I want her to know the tapestry.
Not just some kind of bubble.
Definitely.
Definitely.
(33:59):
I agree.
100%.
100%.
They're so empathetic.
They're, they're just Yes, they are.
Yes.
Yeah.
They're so empathetic.
Definitely.
They're on a, they're on a different wavelength than we are, but it's it's amazing though.
It's amazing the way the minds work, and they are just generally speaking, the sweetest, most compassionate, just genuinely great kids.
(34:25):
Justin a couple of weeks ago made his first communion and there was times when I thought to myself, he may not be able to do his sacraments 'cause where am I gonna find like a program that'll.
Take him and this and that and everything like that.
And once again, God, me Led, led me straight to it.
The same church where Nico got baptized, which actually was the attached to the Catholic school that I went to back when I was like in, second to eighth grade.
(34:50):
Wow.
Actually had a Sunday school program and they've had a couple of kids on the spectrum and they were like, yeah, bring him.
And I was in Sunday school with him.
Every Sunday, sitting there in the classroom just to help him through, right? But they were so kind to him, so patient to him and to see him up there with his class and his.
(35:10):
Gorgeous white tuxedo.
Oh my boy was looking so good and granted he went up to the priest, asked him his name, shook his hand, went off script.
He was like shaking hands and everything.
But, people understood and people thought it was.
Sweet.
And people thought it was cute and nobody bopped at it.
And everybody was so kind and welcoming.
(35:31):
And people came up to me and they were like, I'm so proud of him.
And they were telling me, I'm so proud of you, but I'm like, honestly, it wasn't me.
It was Justin and God, that's all it is.
Okay.
To me it's Justin and God and, but it felt so good to know.
That space was there for him, so that as a young Catholic, he can get his sacraments just like any other young Catholic, 'cause I'm like, he's so genuine, he's so sweet, he's so loving.
(35:55):
He needs to be able to have all of these experiences and be welcomed into the full Catholic family.
And luckily I was able to find that program and work with them.
And I think that's a big thing is to be able to.
Locate these programs, work with them show them how much you are willing to put into it.
(36:17):
If they know that they're gonna get supported, they're willing to do the work.
Nine outta 10 times.
That's what I have found.
And the fact that I was there every week with him, I think that they were like, we can work with that.
And to their credit, there was one or two weeks where I wasn't feeling well or something, and I said, is it okay if I just drop him off? They're like, yes.
Because at that point, he knew the routine and he knew everybody and they knew him and they loved him and they were able to do that.
(36:43):
But I still felt.
I wanna make sure that they understand that I support them as much as they're supporting him.
And so that's why I was there.
I do that with their, with his schools.
I do that with anything that he's in.
I wanna make sure that you know that I am going to support you guys as you support my son.
That is just brilliant and that is so empowering.
(37:14):
As a mother.
Yeah, because I'm thinking, I'm just thinking of so many things that, I wanna support her in doing.
Like Girl Scouts and Right.
Science of course, camp.
And I just want, I want her to be able to do everything.
(37:35):
Yeah.
Listen.
And she can try all of those things.
See what she likes, and like I said, I think.
What sometimes parents don't realize is that, these programs, they need us as much as we need them.
So when they really feel like you are an involved parent and you're there, and if they need something, they can call on you.
(37:57):
That helps them to invest in your child even more.
And I'm a strong advocate of that.
Like with his school, I am the parent that they call on for open houses to come and speak in open houses.
They know if they need anything for any event, they can call Claudia.
My husband does audio engineering when they have events.
He offers his services for free of charge to, help with the audio.
(38:18):
Like we make sure that they understand that as a.
We are supporting them because they support him.
And I feel like beyond the fact that Justin is so adorable and sweet and wonderful, and all those things that make them love him anyway, knowing how much we appreciate them and showing them and supporting them the way we do, makes them want to invest in him even more.
(38:44):
Yes.
And that's the key.
I've told parents many times.
Don't just drop your child off at school.
Make sure your school knows exactly who you are, what you look like, keep, constant communication with them.
If there is, join the PTA if you can join the PTA.
If there are events and they need parent volunteers and you can do it.
(39:07):
Let them see that you support them.
As they support your child, and trust me, anything that you need from them, they're gonna bend over backwards to try and get it for you.
Oh, that, yes.
Yes.
That is and I can vouch for this because I spoke with the PR person for your son's school, like several times, right? Oh boy.
(39:33):
They definitely have your interest in mind.
Yes.
Because they know how I feel about that school, and I tell them all the time for your listeners, is Manhattan Star Academy.
It is amazing.
School.
I cannot say enough about it, how much he's grown there, how much they love my son, how they care for him, how creative, how hardworking, how passionate, how talented they are.
(39:59):
It's an amazing place and I'm so thankful that he's there.
I looked, I was looking at the website and I was like.
If we lived in New Jersey.
I was thinking if we lived in Manhattan this, I think this is where we would wanna be.
I tell you, I live in Brooklyn and it's a good almost two hour drive for him every day.
(40:25):
Bless his Wow.
Yeah.
But he travels well, which is a good thing.
Oh, that's good.
But it was just that good that I'm like.
Yeah, we gotta do it.
Yeah, we gotta do it.
Yeah.
And I don't regret it, worth it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Worth it, definitely.
Wow.
See those, when you find those people that really care.
(40:50):
Yeah.
Priceless.
Yes.
Priceless.
Oh, it has been so incredible talking with you.
You as well.
Thank you so much again.
I was so honored and appreciated to get your invitation.
Thank you so much.
(41:11):
I'm just so inspired by you and.
Everything.
How you've advocated for your son and also how you allow, you don't judge, you don't judge yourself for not being perfect because nobody's perfect.
(41:31):
No one is correct.
Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah, and listen, if you or any of your listeners would like to reach out to me, feel free.
My email is Claudia, C-L-A-U-D-I-A-J Charles C-H-A-R-L-E-S, at gmail.com.
(41:53):
I'd be happy to speak with anyone.
Anything that I can do, even if, I don't know, I might be able, I might know someone who knows someone, but again, each one teach one and we'll get through it together.
Yes.
Yep.
That's the only way.
That's the only way.
Definitely.
(42:15):
Definitely.
All right.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was wonderful.
Thank you so much.
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