October 26, 2024 • 30 mins
Join us as we explore empowering in-hospital birth practices with Angela Anderson, a dedicated certified nurse midwife with nearly three decades of experience. Angela emphasizes the importance of trauma-informed care, informed consent, and shared decision-making to ensure respectful and empowering birth experiences for all. We discuss innovative practices such as water births, the use of nitrous oxide for pain relief during labor, and family-centered cesareans that enhance maternal and newborn outcomes. Angela also shares insights from her work on the Simply Birth Program, which creates a supportive, home-like environment within the hospital setting. Additionally, we reflect on the empowering messages from the recent 'Barbie' movie, linking them to women's rights and the advocacy work in midwifery, ultimately inspiring hope and change in maternity care.
Angela Anderson, a certified nurse midwife with nearly three decades of experience, shares her profound journey into the world of midwifery, emphasizing the importance of empowering birth practices that respect women's autonomy. Growing up on a sheep farm, she developed a passion for birth that led her to a fulfilling career in midwifery instead of traditional obstetrics. Anderson highlights the midwifery model, which views pregnancy and childbirth as natural processes and prioritizes the preferences and autonomy of birthing individuals. This episode delves into innovative practices in childbirth, such as water births and family-centered cesareans, which aim to create a more supportive environment for mothers and newborns. Anderson also discusses the Simply Birth Program, which provides a more home-like atmosphere within hospitals, allowing for personalized care that honors the birthing experience. The conversation focuses on how these advancements contribute to better maternal and neonatal outcomes, making birth a more empowering experience for families.
A significant portion of the discussion centers around trauma-informed care and the necessity for healthcare providers to engage in respectful communication with patients. Anderson emphasizes informed consent and shared decision-making as vital components of a positive birthing experience. The episode addresses the trauma that women often associate with childbirth, even when the medical outcomes are favorable, underscoring the need for debriefing and support in the postpartum period. Anderson advocates for a culture shift in maternity care, where providers prioritize understanding and addressing the emotional and psychological needs of their patients. The episode concludes with reflections on the impact of the Barbie movie, which resonates with themes of women's empowerment and the importance of advocating for respectful maternity care. Through her insights, Anderson inspires listeners to recognize the transformative potential of compassionate care and the ongoing need for advocacy in maternal health.
Takeaways:
- Angela Anderson emphasizes the importance of empowering women through informed consent and shared decision-making in childbirth.
- Innovative practices like water births and family-centered cesareans enhance the birthing experience for mothers and families alike.
- Trauma-informed care is crucial in maternity settings to ensure women feel safe and respected during childbirth.
- The Simply Birth Program creates a home-like environment within hospitals to promote natural, empowering birth experiences.
- Angela's work highlights how vital it is to debrief and support women after traumatic birth experiences.
- The conversation reflects on how cultural narratives, like those in the 'Barbie' movie, can inspire women's empowerment and advocacy in healthcare.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Intermountain Health
- Utah Women and Newborns Quality Collaborative
- UWINK
- Authority Magazine
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Morning.
Good morning.
I would love for you to pleaseintroduce yourself and give us your
backstory, if you don't mind.
Yeah.
So my name's Jillian, and I ama licensed social worker.
I work in a clinical practicedoing therapy.
I have two kids, 13 and nine,and I got into the mental health
(00:24):
field because of my ownstruggles with mental health, especially
the mental health struggles Iexperienced after the birth of my
children.
So I started a group calledmoms for mental health.
And really, what it started aswas just an opportunity to get together
for maybe coffee once a monthwith just other moms who were either
(00:45):
dealing with their own mentalhealth struggles or the mental health
struggles of their children tojust have nonjudgmental conversation.
And what I thought was gonnabe this teeny little let's chat for
coffee with two or three momsonce a month, turned into this big
movement with thousands ofwomen who interact daily online,
searching for support, becauselife is not meant to be done alone,
(01:09):
and motherhood is challenging.
Motherhood is amazing.
It's one of those things whereeveryone's, oh, my God, you have
children.
Aren't they great?
And you're like, sometimesthey're great, but a lot of times
they're not.
It's hard life in general, theups and the downs, none of it is
supposed to be experiencedalone by nature, we're a community
driven species.
We're supposed to be together.
(01:30):
We're supposed to be withother people.
And that doesn't just relateto those who are outwardly extroverted,
even those who are introverts.
We still need a community.
We still need people tosupport us and remind us that we're
not alone.
That's an interesting conundrum.
Yeah.
Like the whole introvertversus extrovert type.
Yeah, definitely.
And it's funny, especiallywith my work with the group moms
(01:51):
to mental health, the way wecombat that is those with social
anxiety or those who are just,like, really burnt out after big
groups will either do a mix of online.
So, for instance, actually,this Sunday, we have a Facebook live
meditation session, like aguided meditation, where those who
aren't really interested ingetting together and talking and
(02:15):
having big conversations, butthey still want that sense of support
and community.
They can come and join thisFacebook live.
They're just with thiscommunity of support, surrounding
them in silence, or with aguided meditation, offering support
for their mental health andgiving them a place to relax and
unwind and reflect, but itdoesn't drain their social battery.
But then we also do in personevents like coffee, meetups and they're
(02:35):
super low key where, like,listen, you don't even have to RSVP.
I don't care if you decide ifyou want to come morning up, does
it matter?
And if you have socialanxiety, once you get into the parking
lot, text us, let us know, andwe'll send somebody out.
Somebody will come to your carand walk in with you so you don't
have to walk in alone.
So really, it's just aboutfiguring out what people's needs
(02:57):
are.
Everybody needs connection,but everybody connects in different
ways.
That is so important.
I haven't really seen or heardanyone touch on this.
I think that's incredibly important.
Yeah, it is.
Because when we think oftraditional support groups, for instance,
it's, okay, let's go around ina circle and let's share and let's
talk about our shared experiences.
And that is really helpful fora lot of people.
(03:18):
But sometimes there's peoplewho just want to sit back in the
shadows a little bit.
And it's not because they're antisocial.
It's not because they're nervous.
It's not because they're ashamed.
It's just because that they'remore of an observant personality.
And that's something to becelebrated, too.
Or maybe you fill your cup bybeing alone.
Or maybe at the end of a longday with your children, you can't.
Imagine giving, I don't wantto sit human anymore.
(03:40):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's the greatthing with an online group, too,
is you interact on your own time.
If you're in a moment, maybeyou're hiding in the bathroom.
You're like, I have to pee.
But really, you're sittingthere on your phone.
You can scroll through theFacebook feed on the group and go,
okay, what are other peopleexperiencing today?
Oh, you know what?
I really resonate with that.
That makes sense.
I'm going to like that.
(04:01):
I'm going to comment on that,or, oh, my gosh, I'm hiding from
my kids in the pantry.
I'm quickly just going towrite this post real quick to vent
that I'm ready to scream, butthen I'm going to walk out of this
pantry and put my Mary Poppinsmile on.
So tell me about, if you don'tmind, your first experience.
You were young.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
It's weird because peoplealways talk about, oh, I never wanted
(04:22):
kids, or, I always wanted kids.
And when I think about it, I'mlike, I don't know.
Actually, I don't know what Iwanted when I was younger.
I think I probably imaginedmyself married with kids, but I never
really gave it any thought.
And then my husband and I gotmarried when we were 18.
Worked out for us.
Absolutely.
Great.
Awesome.
I don't recommend gettingmarried at 18.
(04:43):
Definitely a rye.
You're growing as anindividual, and then you have to
learn to grow as this couplewhile your frontal lobe is still
developing.
So that's an interesting thing.
We got married at 18, and Ifound out when I was 19 years old
that I have endometriosis,which was really no surprise, because
ever since I started puberty,the pain associated not only with
(05:06):
just my menstrual cycles orjust my period, but also throughout
my menstrual cycle was unbearable.
I was missing school.
I was missing work.
I was vomiting and faintingfrom, and I was like, this can't
be normal.
Like, something has to begoing on.
And when I was finallydiagnosed with endometriosis, it
was a relief because it's okay now.
We have a path forward.
But then I was also faced withthis, like, question of, okay, doctors
(05:29):
are telling me if I want tohave kids, I need to do it now, because
it might not happen ever otherwise.
And that also wasn't that surprising.
So I was born via in vitro.
I'm one of three.
I'm a triplet.
That's right, that's right.
Yeah.
And I knew my mom went throughthat, and that was definitely something
that I just.
I didn't know if I wanted togo down that road.
(05:50):
And I'm also one of thosestubborn people where if you can't
do something, I'm gonna belike, watch me.
Focus on me.
Cause when they're like, hey,you might not be able to get pregnant.
I was like, I'm gonna do itright now.
So, yeah, that was how I foundmyself pregnant at 21, which is fine,
but I also don't think I knewwhat really went into pregnancy.
(06:11):
And postpartum, I wascompletely unprepared.
All I was hearing from friendsand family was, oh, my gosh.
This is gonna be great.
This is gonna be the best timeof your life.
You're gonna welcome this babyinto the world, and your life is
gonna be complete.
You're gonna know a loveunlike any other.
This is your passion and yourpurpose in life.
And some of that's true, butalso there's this whole dark side
(06:32):
of it that literally no oneprepared me for.
And my pregnancy was rough.
It was rough in the beginning.
I don't really know that wegot an answer as to why.
But I was fainting almostdaily, every time I would stand up.
It wasn't just this, oh, Ifeel lightheaded.
It was like I can't breathe.
And I was fainting, like up toseven times a day.
So I couldn't drive, Icouldn't get out of bed, I couldn't
(06:54):
work anymore.
So I was put on bed rest andit was, I don't know, it'll fix itself
when the baby comes.
So that already starteddepression, because I have always
been a very independent personand I've always worked, like, my
entire, like, older adolescent life.
I mean, I started babysitting,of course, at like twelve.
(07:15):
And by 14, I was working apretty steady part time job.
By 16, I was working almostfull time hours and I had been working
full time then by the time 17or 18, up until the birth of my child.
So it was like, or close tothe birth of my child.
It was just weird to be like,okay, now I'm not doing anything.
(07:35):
Like, I'm nothing.
What's my purpose?
What's my value to societyright now?
So I tried to, like, combatthat with things like online classes.
I was like, I'll continue my education.
But the anxiety and thedepression began to set in early
and I didn't know it.
I knew something was wrong,but I couldn't identify what it was.
And then when I had my firstchild, it was an emergency c section.
(07:57):
So not only was I strugglingthrough the pregnancy, but my daughter
was struggling too.
She, like, her heart rate keptdropping, so they were really concerned.
I was going in for regular monitoring.
And the last monitoringsession I went in for, they're like,
we have to take her now.
Like, her heart rate is waytoo low.
She's not going to survive.
We have to take her.
So that was, it was anothermoment where I didn't have control.
(08:19):
And I think what we all wantin control, what we all want in life,
is autonomy and control.
And in that moment, I had none.
So we rushed, we did the C section.
They put this baby in my arms.
And I don't know why, but thefirst thing I said, I looked at my
mom and I said, is shesupposed to look like that?
And my mom's like, what?
(08:40):
And I was like, I don't know.
She looks weird.
My mom was like, that's a newborn.
That's what a newborn looks like.
And then the next thing Iknew, I was just sobbing.
And they were not those tearsof joy.
They were not those tears of,oh, my gosh, this is my life's passion.
This is my life's purpose.
They were tears ofuncontrollable grief.
And in that moment, I knowit's a lie now, but in that moment,
(09:03):
my brain was telling me,you're unworthy and you're undeserving,
and you will be, without adoubt, the worst mother ever, and
your child deserves better.
And the only thing you can doto fix this is to not exist.
So postpartum depression hitme like a brick wall.
I did not know that's what it was.
(09:23):
Asides from the outwardsymptoms of crying, I think I hit
it very well, but it did notget better for a very long time.
Experience.
Oh, my.
I'm so sorry.
And the emergency c section,it's not just not having control,
it's complete disempowerment.
(09:46):
Absolutely.
And you don't have a say in anything.
They're like, this is whatwe're doing, and we're doing it now,
and we're doing it.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting that yousay that, too, because I don't.
I remember theanesthesiologist being really gentle
and really kind and justtrying to soothe my anxiety, but
nobody else was talking to me.
They were talking at me, and Idon't remember feeling like I had
(10:10):
a single ally in that room.
And not to say my husbandwasn't there.
He was, but I think he wasjust as shocked as I was.
You have to remember, we wereboth 21, and we were both like, we
have no idea what's happening.
So, yeah, it was rough and a.
Moment that could be, I'mbringing life into this world, whatever.
But instead, it was like, I'mhaving life ripped out of me, and
(10:34):
I don't feel in control.
I don't feel empowered.
I don't feel safe.
I don't feel like I have aknowledge or understanding of what's
happening.
Well, yeah, it was not abeautiful start to motherhood.
Yeah.
Set you up for failure.
Not for failure.
That's not the right word.
That's what it felt like, though.
I think it embodies what I felt.
(10:54):
Yeah.
That might not be the truth ofthe situation, but that's definitely
the messaging that theenvironment and my brain were telling
me.
You've already failed.
Yeah, you've already failed.
You're bringing your daughterinto the world in a state of chaos,
and you've already failed to.
Right.
They had to intervene.
It had to be an emergency.
And that's your fault.
(11:15):
It's a failure.
Yeah.
Cause they tried to induce.
They tried the pitocin, and I wasn't.
I was having awfulcontractions, but I wasn't dilating
at all.
Like, nothing there.
And they just kept saying,just relax.
Let your body work.
And I'm like, I don't.
What do you mean?
Let my body, like, what am Isupposed to do?
I don't.
How do I do that?
What do you want me to do?
So did you.
You said you hit it.
(11:35):
Well, did you tell anybody?
No.
I was so ashamed, and I was so embarrassed.
And I knew.
I didn't know what motherhoodshould feel like because I hadn't
done it before, but I knew itshouldn't feel like this.
But I also didn't know how totell people, I'm not supposed to
be a mom.
I'm not supposed to do this.
I'm not good at this.
I don't know how to do it.
(11:56):
I feel like I'm failing.
I feel like my daughterdeserves better.
Like, how do you say that without.
I don't know.
My brain was, how do I saythat without sounding terrible?
How do I say that withoutsounding crazy?
Now I know.
I'm like, you just say it.
That's how I'm feeling.
I need help.
That's what you say.
But I didn't know how to do that.
So I suffered in silence.
And there were signs.
(12:17):
I was crying all the time.
I wasn't sleeping.
I would go to sleep, and thenI would wake up with these horrible.
They weren't really nightmares.
Cause it was like a luciddream almost, where I would be convinced
that my daughter was layingdead in her crib or that her head
had caved in somehow orsomeone had taken her.
It was just.
And it wasn't just intrusive thoughts.
(12:38):
Those were there, too.
But these were very vividlucid dreams where I was convinced
I would sometimes shake myhusband and be like, oh, my God,
you have to go check.
Her face is caved in.
And he's like, what are youtalking about?
I'm like, I can see her faceis caved in.
I can't go look at her.
And he would go and check onher, and the baby's sleeping, and
he's.
She's fine.
Like, what's.
You know, what's wrong?
But I couldn't get out of thiscycle of horrifying imagery and horrifying
(13:01):
intrusive thoughts.
And I couldn't sleep.
People would come over and belike, just go take a nap.
I'll hold the baby.
But I would close my eyes andeven if she wasn't crying, all I
could hear was crying.
I could just hear screamingand crying.
And my brain was, like,constantly telling me that something
was wrong.
And it really got so bad thatI couldn't tell what was real and
what wasn't.
It was awful.
(13:21):
But again, I didn't see anything.
I remember taking the baby outfor a walk.
She was maybe a week old, andI got the stroller out of my car,
and when I closed the trunk ofmy car, her head wobbled.
That's it.
It was just like, boop.
Just like a little infant wobble.
But my brain was telling me,oh, my God, you broke her neck.
(13:42):
So I'm sitting there, andagain, she's fine.
She's literally in my armsfine, factually.
But my brain is telling me,you broke her neck because you shut
the car door too hard.
I sat on the curb, and I juststarted crying and just bawling.
And this jogger comes by, andhe's, are you okay?
And I'm like, no, I'm not okay.
(14:02):
I can't do this.
I can't be a mom.
And he says, there's somebodyI can call.
And he called my mom for me.
And my mom came over, and mymom is like, she's fine.
Look at her.
She's fine.
Nothing's wrong with her.
We got over that.
But it was like those thingshappened all the time.
They're brainstor.
Do you feel like they weren't.
Do you feel like those signsweren't picked up on?
I think everybody was walkingon eggshells.
(14:24):
Nobody wants to tell you, hey,I don't think you're okay.
And even when I went for,like, the postpartum checkup at six
weeks, they give you thatpiece of paper that's, do you have
thoughts of harming yourself?
Do you have thoughts ofharming your baby?
Do you have thoughts of allthese things?
And I'm like, I don't knowwhat happens if I check yes.
And then I asked, I was like,what happens if I check yes?
And it depends.
And I'm like, okay, it dependson what?
And they're like, it depends,okay, I don't know what happened,
(14:47):
so I'm just gonna check no.
And I'm sitting there sobbingin the office, but because I check
no on the boxes, they're like,okay, you can have sex again.
Go ahead.
And I'm like, okay, thank you.
I think everybody knew, andeverybody tried to help in their
way.
They would come over, I havemy best friend's mom was so sweet.
(15:08):
She would come over andpretend that everything was perfectly
normal and be like, I'm justgonna clean your house.
And I'm like, oh, my God, myhouse is disgusting.
And she said, no, I love cleaning.
And she would just talk.
Just fill the silence and justtalk and clean my house.
My best friend would comeover, and she would just hold the
baby, and if I would becrying, she's, what do you need?
Uh huh.
Food.
(15:28):
What do you want?
So they definitely tried tooffer support, but no one really
came right out and said, hey,something's wrong.
And the way I got throughpostpartum depression and postpartum
anxiety with my first was just wait.
And I waited probably, like, a year.
And then slowly, I was justlike, oh, weird.
Life's not so bad anymore, huh?
I haven't cried today.
(15:49):
Oh, I feel like I'm breathing deeper.
I feel, like, lighter.
Oh, I haven't worried that mydaughter's face caved in today.
It was just these littlemoments of clarity that then became
the norm.
I think the base level anxietywas still there, but it was much
more manageable.
Yeah.
I just waited, at least withmy first.
(16:09):
Yeah.
Not a good approach.
No.
A year is a long time to suffer.
Yeah.
And I lost friends.
Some friends could see that Iwas struggling but didn't know how
to help.
And they just either told meflat out, like, I don't know what
to do.
You're not the same person.
Like, I don't want to talk toyou anymore.
Or they just slowly faded outof my life.
(16:31):
And I think my relationshipwith my husband suffered not, you
know, that we were ever in,like, a terrible place, but it was
like he could see that Iwasn't myself.
But also, how do you say toyour spouse, hey, you're not yourself?
Especially again.
Cause we were 21.
Yeah.
How do you see that?
How do you approach that?
We both just danced aroundthis intruder in our home.
(16:52):
That was postpartum depression.
And I can imagine being 21 andyour friend do not know how to help
you or even talk to you.
No.
They're out drinking andpartying and staying up late and
carefree, and they love you,and they want to support you, but
it's like watching a train wreck.
(17:14):
What do you do to stop it?
You don't, so you just watchit happen.
I had the conversations withmy mom, but also, her experience
was so different.
She went through a vitro, shefought to be here, and every mountain
she climbed was like, I don'tcare how hard it is.
This is the victory.
And then her experience washard for a different reason.
(17:36):
We were born super early.
We were very premature.
We were like two pounds each.
We were on heart monitors andin incubators, and we were getting
oxygen, and we were in theNICU forever.
So her entire postpartumexperience was really spent within
the hospital environment.
(17:56):
Her experience was just different.
Not to say she didn't struggle.
She absolutely struggled.
She had babies that she didn'tknow if they were going to survive
or nothing.
Imagine that burden.
But her experience was just different.
And also, the way we talkabout mental health is different.
I don't even think we werereally having that discussion.
I don't think it was reallyeven a thing.
So when did you become asocial worker?
Yeah.
So that journey, interestingly enough.
(18:19):
So I graduated high school,and I immediately started classes
at the community college.
I wanted to get my associate's degree.
I knew I wanted to go into thehelping field.
I wanted to be a therapist.
But then having a child at 21really put a hold on that.
So I was like, I'm going totake a semester off just to get adjusted
to, like, motherhood.
And that semester turned intoa ten year break and two kids.
(18:40):
Yeah.
So after I had my secondchild, which, again, I did experience
extreme postpartum depression,and that came with suicidality to
the point that I had a plan.
I had.
I think I'm lucky I made itout of that one alive.
That one.
I did have to seek help,because it was painfully obvious
that if somebody didn'tintervene, I was not gonna be here.
So after I got over that humpof that second postpartum depression
(19:03):
and extreme suicidality, Ireally had this overwhelming desire
to reclaim my own existence.
And I had never stopped working.
I was either doing homedaycare, I was a licensed home daycare
provider for a while.
With my first, I owned twoyoga studios.
I was a yoga teacher and a writer.
So I did all of these thingsaround parenting.
(19:24):
But also, I think it'simportant to note, too, that when
I say I was a home daycareprovider and people were listening
to this and they're like, oh,my God, if you were like that depressed,
how are you taking care ofother children?
But also, when I look back, mybrain was telling me I'm terrible
and I'm not worthy.
I'm not doing anything.
But if I look at home videosand stuff, I'm so engaged with my
kids, I'm laughing and I'm onthe floor playing with them, and
(19:44):
I'm taking them everywhere,and I'm doing these enrichment activities.
I'm doing all the things, butmy brain was telling me I'm doing
nothing.
So it's really interesting.
When I look back, I'm like,all of the evidence is there that
I was an excellent mother,that I was always present, I was
always kind, I was patient, Iwas loving, I was there, I was doing
things, but my brain wastelling me, you're not doing anything.
So that was an aside.
(20:05):
But.
So after the birth of mysecond child, when I really started
to question, what do I want todo with my life the rest of my life?
I would take my kids to myyoga studio and they would sit in
the back and nap or play withtoys while I taught yoga classes,
or I would do mommy me yogaclasses where everybody had their
(20:25):
kids.
And it was great and I loved it.
But there was still this pullof, I love yoga, I love meditation,
I love mindfulness, butthere's still.
I want more.
I want to be in the mentalhealth field because I almost lost
my life to mental illness.
And I know there's nothing.
I know there's more work to bedone and I want to be part of that
(20:47):
work.
So I went back to school and Ifinished my bachelor's degree and
I finished my master's degree,and I got back into the field and
it was this crazy transitionof, oh, my gosh.
I've always worked from homeor in an environment where I can
bring my kids.
What does this look like nowthat I'm working outside of the home?
(21:08):
My kids are older.
They're 13 and nine.
And when I started this acouple years ago, they were, I don't
know, six, seven and 1110 or eleven.
They were old enough, theywere at school, and I figured that
was the best time.
And both of them are in school.
Most of my working hours areduring the day.
I get home either right aroundthe same time they do or a little
(21:29):
later.
Now I work a couple latenights, but also, like, they don't
want anything to do with me.
Now they're like, I don't know.
Are you going to feed me dinner?
If you're going to feed medinner, I'm fine.
I just had to find my balanceand find my stride.
And it's interesting because Ialways thought if I'm not home, my
kids are going to think Idon't love them.
But my kids are always tellingme how proud they are of me, and
(21:49):
my kids are always telling methat the work I do is important.
And I love that becausethey're the ones building the confidence
in myself that I wasn't ableto see if that makes sense.
That's beautiful.
They know.
They're.
They're special little guys.
That's so beautiful.
Yeah, it is.
They're a gift, even whenthey're a menace.
(22:10):
I love my mom, and I don'tmean this in any negative light,
but my mom gave up her entirelife to raise kids.
That was her entire existence.
We were her purpose and herpassion and her world.
And she gave up everything tobe with us her entire life.
And what did that mean when wegrew up?
(22:30):
She had no sense of self.
She had no sense of identity.
So what do I do with my life?
My kids are grown.
My kids are gone.
Who am I?
And I saw that struggle, and Istill see that struggle unfolding
as my mom still tries to findher place in the world.
And she's a beautiful soul.
I love this woman to pieces,but it's sad to see her sometimes
question, who am I?
(22:51):
And what have I done with my life?
And I knew that I didn't wantthat for myself.
Not to say that being a stayat home mom is not incredible.
It is.
And if that is truly yourpassion, and that's where you belong,
and that's where you'rederiving, like, your fulfillment
from, that's excellent.
And also, what are you doingfor yourself?
Whether that's just self care,whether it's volunteer work, whether
(23:12):
it's part time job, whateverit is, whether it's just socializing
with friends outside of yourkids, whatever it is, don't lose
sight of the fact that you aremore than just a mom.
Mom can be your most treasuredrole, but it's not your entire identity.
And if we lose ourself in thatidentity, eventually it comes to
the surface, and you're like,I don't know who I am anymore.
(23:34):
And that hurts.
My schedule is still flexible enough.
If my kids need me, I'm gonnabe there.
I will shift clients.
I will cancel meetings.
I will be there.
But the majority of the day,they don't need me now.
And it's funny cause sometimesI'll be like, oh, my gosh, I have
an unexpected day off.
Do you guys want to do something?
And they're like, no.
Okay, cool.
(23:54):
But at night, that's when theyneed me again.
Like, my youngest, he stillwants me to read to him at night
and sing to him.
And my oldest doesn't wantthat, but she wants me to say goodnight.
She wants me there.
They want help with theirhomework, or they want to tell me
about whatever drama justhappened at school today, or whatever
win they just experienced atschool today.
(24:15):
So being present, it took me along time to realize that being present
looks different at each age.
So, yes, when they weretoddlers or infants, I was literally
always there because theyalways needed me.
I was their lifeline.
I was their everything.
But as they get older, theyneed me less.
And that's not a sign of menot being available.
That's a sign that I've raisedkids with healthy attachments, and
(24:37):
that's a sign that I've raisedkids with healthy sense of self and
confidence.
If they were still attached tome constantly at nine and 13, I'd
have to worry.
I'd have to worry.
Why can't you function outsideof my presence?
Yeah.
We don't raise them to staywith us forever.
We raise them to leave the nest.
(24:59):
We kill.
Yeah.
And I had to come to thatreality check because I'd be like,
oh, my gosh, I used to do somuch with them, and I used to be
in crafts all day long andbaking and cooking and taking them
on walks.
And I'm like, okay,realistically, julia, what would
happen if I told my kids,okay, all day long, you're gonna
be with mommy today, we'regonna bake, and we're gonna cook,
and we're gonna play games,and we're gonna do crafts?
They would be like, no, we'renot actually doing that.
(25:21):
It's different stages.
And in a way, I do have to saythat I'm grateful for my experience
with depression, withpostpartum depression.
I'm happy it didn't end mylife, obviously, but I'm grateful
for my experience because Ithink it makes me a better mom to
know what it looks like toovercome struggles.
(25:42):
I do have a child with mentalhealth struggles, and I think it
makes me more compassionateand more understanding.
Oh, yeah.
And I think it makes me abetter provider in the clinical sense,
is I'm not just relying on theory.
I'm not just relying onevidence based practice.
I'm relying on lived experiences.
And then it also helps becauseI can help break the stigma.
(26:04):
I can be like, yeah, my lifewas literally a shit show for several
years, but I'm fine now.
I'm good.
Life is great.
There's still challengesbecause it's life.
Life is comfortably uncomfortable.
Or the scarier thing is myfamily would be better off if I was
gone.
Those are the scary thoughts, right?
I am a burden.
(26:25):
I am a burden just by being here.
Yeah.
I think that's the scariestthought that goes through our head.
But when you say it out loud,you take away that power.
You take away its power.
Or someone.
At least you do.
And also, it's almost likefact checking.
It's like when I say it outloud, I'm like, okay, that doesn't
(26:45):
sound as great out loud as itsounds in my head.
Yeah.
And I think our minds are veryskilled at lying to us.
We really are.
We can convince ourselves ofsome really scary truths that aren't
true.
But our brain gives us all ofthe feedback and all of the supporting
(27:07):
evidence to prove that thosethoughts are true.
And then when we speak themout loud into existence and we really
start to actually fact checkit and do some reality checking,
we're like, you know what?
I don't think.
I don't think that's right.
I'm seeing little cracks here.
I'm seeing little flaws inthis logic.
I think so.
And then the problem is, howdo we get them comfortable?
(27:29):
When I have clients in myoffice who tell me they're suicidal,
who share their plan with me,who say I want to die, there's never
a look of shock on my face.
There's never this.
Oh, my gosh.
Why would you say that?
It's always, I'm so happy youtold me.
Thank you so much.
That is such a heavy burden tobear alone.
Let's talk about this.
(27:49):
Let me take some of that pain.
Let's work through this.
Why are we feeling that way?
And I always tell them they're brave.
I'm like, oh, my gosh.
You are so brave for sharingthat right now.
Thank you so much.
I know that took a lot of strength.
I know that took a lot of vulnerability.
I'm so proud of you.
That's one of the worst thingsyou'll ever do, and I'm so proud
of you.
And I think on a lot of theirfaces, you do see this.
My gosh, I just told the world.
(28:10):
I just told somebody mydeepest, darkest secret.
And I wasn't met with shock ordisgust or shame.
I was met with gratitude.
I was met with love.
I was met with support.
And then we start.
And with the safety planning,and then we start in with, okay,
what is our next step?
Are we safe if we go home today?
What supports do we need tobuild in?
What measures do we need totake to ensure that we can get you
(28:30):
through this?
Cause it's not a magic fix.
It's not.
Okay, thanks for telling me.
Bye.
We have to make sure they're safe.
But it's always with compassion.
It's always with kindness.
It's always with extreme gratitude.
And letting them know from astrength based perspective, like,
you have no idea the strengthit took for you to say that.
You might think it's aweakness that you are feeling this
way, but you walked in thisdoor, you sat down across from me,
(28:52):
looked me in the eye and toldme, I want to die.
What an incredible amount ofstrength it took to say that today.
So, yeah, I think that can beincredibly empowering, just giving
validation.
But I think it's reallyimportant to recognize that it's,
yes, I am doing important workas a clinician, but it's the people
on the other side of the room,the clients, they're doing the important
(29:14):
work.
They're the ones showing up.
They're the ones processing feelings.
They're the ones facinguncomfortable truths and taking the
next step and fighting anotherday and pushing through the discomfort
and learning distress, tolerance.
They are.
They're the ones reallyfighting the battle.
Morning.
Good morning.
I would love for you to pleaseintroduce yourself and give us your
backstory, if you don't mind.
Yeah.
So my name's Jillian, and I ama licensed social worker.
I work in a clinical practicedoing therapy.
I have two kids, 13 and nine,and I got into the mental health
(00:24):
field because of my ownstruggles with mental health, especially
the mental health struggles Iexperienced after the birth of my
children.
So I started a group calledmoms for mental health.
And really, what it started aswas just an opportunity to get together
for maybe coffee once a monthwith just other moms who were either
(00:45):
dealing with their own mentalhealth struggles or the mental health
struggles of their children tojust have nonjudgmental conversation.
And what I thought was gonnabe this teeny little let's chat for
coffee with two or three momsonce a month, turned into this big
movement with thousands ofwomen who interact daily online,
searching for support, becauselife is not meant to be done alone,
(01:09):
and motherhood is challenging.
Motherhood is amazing.
It's one of those things whereeveryone's, oh, my God, you have
children.
Aren't they great?
And you're like, sometimesthey're great, but a lot of times
they're not.
It's hard life in general, theups and the downs, none of it is
supposed to be experiencedalone by nature, we're a community
driven species.
We're supposed to be together.
(01:30):
We're supposed to be withother people.
And that doesn't just relateto those who are outwardly extroverted,
even those who are introverts.
We still need a community.
We still need people tosupport us and remind us that we're
not alone.
That's an interesting conundrum.
Yeah.
Like the whole introvertversus extrovert type.
Yeah, definitely.
And it's funny, especiallywith my work with the group moms
(01:51):
to mental health, the way wecombat that is those with social
anxiety or those who are just,like, really burnt out after big
groups will either do a mix of online.
So, for instance, actually,this Sunday, we have a Facebook live
meditation session, like aguided meditation, where those who
aren't really interested ingetting together and talking and
(02:15):
having big conversations, butthey still want that sense of support
and community.
They can come and join thisFacebook live.
They're just with thiscommunity of support, surrounding
them in silence, or with aguided meditation, offering support
for their mental health andgiving them a place to relax and
unwind and reflect, but itdoesn't drain their social battery.
But then we also do in personevents like coffee, meetups and they're
(02:35):
super low key where, like,listen, you don't even have to RSVP.
I don't care if you decide ifyou want to come morning up, does
it matter?
And if you have socialanxiety, once you get into the parking
lot, text us, let us know, andwe'll send somebody out.
Somebody will come to your carand walk in with you so you don't
have to walk in alone.
So really, it's just aboutfiguring out what people's needs
(02:57):
are.
Everybody needs connection,but everybody connects in different
ways.
That is so important.
I haven't really seen or heardanyone touch on this.
I think that's incredibly important.
Yeah, it is.
Because when we think oftraditional support groups, for instance,
it's, okay, let's go around ina circle and let's share and let's
talk about our shared experiences.
And that is really helpful fora lot of people.
(03:18):
But sometimes there's peoplewho just want to sit back in the
shadows a little bit.
And it's not because they're antisocial.
It's not because they're nervous.
It's not because they're ashamed.
It's just because that they'remore of an observant personality.
And that's something to becelebrated, too.
Or maybe you fill your cup bybeing alone.
Or maybe at the end of a longday with your children, you can't.
Imagine giving, I don't wantto sit human anymore.
(03:40):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's the greatthing with an online group, too,
is you interact on your own time.
If you're in a moment, maybeyou're hiding in the bathroom.
You're like, I have to pee.
But really, you're sittingthere on your phone.
You can scroll through theFacebook feed on the group and go,
okay, what are other peopleexperiencing today?
Oh, you know what?
I really resonate with that.
That makes sense.
I'm going to like that.
(04:01):
I'm going to comment on that,or, oh, my gosh, I'm hiding from
my kids in the pantry.
I'm quickly just going towrite this post real quick to vent
that I'm ready to scream, butthen I'm going to walk out of this
pantry and put my Mary Poppinsmile on.
So tell me about, if you don'tmind, your first experience.
You were young.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
It's weird because peoplealways talk about, oh, I never wanted
(04:22):
kids, or, I always wanted kids.
And when I think about it, I'mlike, I don't know.
Actually, I don't know what Iwanted when I was younger.
I think I probably imaginedmyself married with kids, but I never
really gave it any thought.
And then my husband and I gotmarried when we were 18.
Worked out for us.
Absolutely.
Great.
Awesome.
I don't recommend gettingmarried at 18.
(04:43):
Definitely a rye.
You're growing as anindividual, and then you have to
learn to grow as this couplewhile your frontal lobe is still
developing.
So that's an interesting thing.
We got married at 18, and Ifound out when I was 19 years old
that I have endometriosis,which was really no surprise, because
ever since I started puberty,the pain associated not only with
(05:06):
just my menstrual cycles orjust my period, but also throughout
my menstrual cycle was unbearable.
I was missing school.
I was missing work.
I was vomiting and faintingfrom, and I was like, this can't
be normal.
Like, something has to begoing on.
And when I was finallydiagnosed with endometriosis, it
was a relief because it's okay now.
We have a path forward.
But then I was also faced withthis, like, question of, okay, doctors
(05:29):
are telling me if I want tohave kids, I need to do it now, because
it might not happen ever otherwise.
And that also wasn't that surprising.
So I was born via in vitro.
I'm one of three.
I'm a triplet.
That's right, that's right.
Yeah.
And I knew my mom went throughthat, and that was definitely something
that I just.
I didn't know if I wanted togo down that road.
(05:50):
And I'm also one of thosestubborn people where if you can't
do something, I'm gonna belike, watch me.
Focus on me.
Cause when they're like, hey,you might not be able to get pregnant.
I was like, I'm gonna do itright now.
So, yeah, that was how I foundmyself pregnant at 21, which is fine,
but I also don't think I knewwhat really went into pregnancy.
(06:11):
And postpartum, I wascompletely unprepared.
All I was hearing from friendsand family was, oh, my gosh.
This is gonna be great.
This is gonna be the best timeof your life.
You're gonna welcome this babyinto the world, and your life is
gonna be complete.
You're gonna know a loveunlike any other.
This is your passion and yourpurpose in life.
And some of that's true, butalso there's this whole dark side
(06:32):
of it that literally no oneprepared me for.
And my pregnancy was rough.
It was rough in the beginning.
I don't really know that wegot an answer as to why.
But I was fainting almostdaily, every time I would stand up.
It wasn't just this, oh, Ifeel lightheaded.
It was like I can't breathe.
And I was fainting, like up toseven times a day.
So I couldn't drive, Icouldn't get out of bed, I couldn't
(06:54):
work anymore.
So I was put on bed rest andit was, I don't know, it'll fix itself
when the baby comes.
So that already starteddepression, because I have always
been a very independent personand I've always worked, like, my
entire, like, older adolescent life.
I mean, I started babysitting,of course, at like twelve.
(07:15):
And by 14, I was working apretty steady part time job.
By 16, I was working almostfull time hours and I had been working
full time then by the time 17or 18, up until the birth of my child.
So it was like, or close tothe birth of my child.
It was just weird to be like,okay, now I'm not doing anything.
(07:35):
Like, I'm nothing.
What's my purpose?
What's my value to societyright now?
So I tried to, like, combatthat with things like online classes.
I was like, I'll continue my education.
But the anxiety and thedepression began to set in early
and I didn't know it.
I knew something was wrong,but I couldn't identify what it was.
And then when I had my firstchild, it was an emergency c section.
(07:57):
So not only was I strugglingthrough the pregnancy, but my daughter
was struggling too.
She, like, her heart rate keptdropping, so they were really concerned.
I was going in for regular monitoring.
And the last monitoringsession I went in for, they're like,
we have to take her now.
Like, her heart rate is waytoo low.
She's not going to survive.
We have to take her.
So that was, it was anothermoment where I didn't have control.
(08:19):
And I think what we all wantin control, what we all want in life,
is autonomy and control.
And in that moment, I had none.
So we rushed, we did the C section.
They put this baby in my arms.
And I don't know why, but thefirst thing I said, I looked at my
mom and I said, is shesupposed to look like that?
And my mom's like, what?
(08:40):
And I was like, I don't know.
She looks weird.
My mom was like, that's a newborn.
That's what a newborn looks like.
And then the next thing Iknew, I was just sobbing.
And they were not those tearsof joy.
They were not those tears of,oh, my gosh, this is my life's passion.
This is my life's purpose.
They were tears ofuncontrollable grief.
And in that moment, I knowit's a lie now, but in that moment,
(09:03):
my brain was telling me,you're unworthy and you're undeserving,
and you will be, without adoubt, the worst mother ever, and
your child deserves better.
And the only thing you can doto fix this is to not exist.
So postpartum depression hitme like a brick wall.
I did not know that's what it was.
(09:23):
Asides from the outwardsymptoms of crying, I think I hit
it very well, but it did notget better for a very long time.
Experience.
Oh, my.
I'm so sorry.
And the emergency c section,it's not just not having control,
it's complete disempowerment.
(09:46):
Absolutely.
And you don't have a say in anything.
They're like, this is whatwe're doing, and we're doing it now,
and we're doing it.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting that yousay that, too, because I don't.
I remember theanesthesiologist being really gentle
and really kind and justtrying to soothe my anxiety, but
nobody else was talking to me.
They were talking at me, and Idon't remember feeling like I had
(10:10):
a single ally in that room.
And not to say my husbandwasn't there.
He was, but I think he wasjust as shocked as I was.
You have to remember, we wereboth 21, and we were both like, we
have no idea what's happening.
So, yeah, it was rough and a.
Moment that could be, I'mbringing life into this world, whatever.
But instead, it was like, I'mhaving life ripped out of me, and
(10:34):
I don't feel in control.
I don't feel empowered.
I don't feel safe.
I don't feel like I have aknowledge or understanding of what's
happening.
Well, yeah, it was not abeautiful start to motherhood.
Yeah.
Set you up for failure.
Not for failure.
That's not the right word.
That's what it felt like, though.
I think it embodies what I felt.
(10:54):
Yeah.
That might not be the truth ofthe situation, but that's definitely
the messaging that theenvironment and my brain were telling
me.
You've already failed.
Yeah, you've already failed.
You're bringing your daughterinto the world in a state of chaos,
and you've already failed to.
Right.
They had to intervene.
It had to be an emergency.
And that's your fault.
(11:15):
It's a failure.
Yeah.
Cause they tried to induce.
They tried the pitocin, and I wasn't.
I was having awfulcontractions, but I wasn't dilating
at all.
Like, nothing there.
And they just kept saying,just relax.
Let your body work.
And I'm like, I don't.
What do you mean?
Let my body, like, what am Isupposed to do?
I don't.
How do I do that?
What do you want me to do?
So did you.
You said you hit it.
(11:35):
Well, did you tell anybody?
No.
I was so ashamed, and I was so embarrassed.
And I knew.
I didn't know what motherhoodshould feel like because I hadn't
done it before, but I knew itshouldn't feel like this.
But I also didn't know how totell people, I'm not supposed to
be a mom.
I'm not supposed to do this.
I'm not good at this.
I don't know how to do it.
(11:56):
I feel like I'm failing.
I feel like my daughterdeserves better.
Like, how do you say that without.
I don't know.
My brain was, how do I saythat without sounding terrible?
How do I say that withoutsounding crazy?
Now I know.
I'm like, you just say it.
That's how I'm feeling.
I need help.
That's what you say.
But I didn't know how to do that.
So I suffered in silence.
And there were signs.
(12:17):
I was crying all the time.
I wasn't sleeping.
I would go to sleep, and thenI would wake up with these horrible.
They weren't really nightmares.
Cause it was like a luciddream almost, where I would be convinced
that my daughter was layingdead in her crib or that her head
had caved in somehow orsomeone had taken her.
It was just.
And it wasn't just intrusive thoughts.
(12:38):
Those were there, too.
But these were very vividlucid dreams where I was convinced
I would sometimes shake myhusband and be like, oh, my God,
you have to go check.
Her face is caved in.
And he's like, what are youtalking about?
I'm like, I can see her faceis caved in.
I can't go look at her.
And he would go and check onher, and the baby's sleeping, and
he's.
She's fine.
Like, what's.
You know, what's wrong?
But I couldn't get out of thiscycle of horrifying imagery and horrifying
(13:01):
intrusive thoughts.
And I couldn't sleep.
People would come over and belike, just go take a nap.
I'll hold the baby.
But I would close my eyes andeven if she wasn't crying, all I
could hear was crying.
I could just hear screamingand crying.
And my brain was, like,constantly telling me that something
was wrong.
And it really got so bad thatI couldn't tell what was real and
what wasn't.
It was awful.
(13:21):
But again, I didn't see anything.
I remember taking the baby outfor a walk.
She was maybe a week old, andI got the stroller out of my car,
and when I closed the trunk ofmy car, her head wobbled.
That's it.
It was just like, boop.
Just like a little infant wobble.
But my brain was telling me,oh, my God, you broke her neck.
(13:42):
So I'm sitting there, andagain, she's fine.
She's literally in my armsfine, factually.
But my brain is telling me,you broke her neck because you shut
the car door too hard.
I sat on the curb, and I juststarted crying and just bawling.
And this jogger comes by, andhe's, are you okay?
And I'm like, no, I'm not okay.
(14:02):
I can't do this.
I can't be a mom.
And he says, there's somebodyI can call.
And he called my mom for me.
And my mom came over, and mymom is like, she's fine.
Look at her.
She's fine.
Nothing's wrong with her.
We got over that.
But it was like those thingshappened all the time.
They're brainstor.
Do you feel like they weren't.
Do you feel like those signsweren't picked up on?
I think everybody was walkingon eggshells.
(14:24):
Nobody wants to tell you, hey,I don't think you're okay.
And even when I went for,like, the postpartum checkup at six
weeks, they give you thatpiece of paper that's, do you have
thoughts of harming yourself?
Do you have thoughts ofharming your baby?
Do you have thoughts of allthese things?
And I'm like, I don't knowwhat happens if I check yes.
And then I asked, I was like,what happens if I check yes?
And it depends.
And I'm like, okay, it dependson what?
And they're like, it depends,okay, I don't know what happened,
(14:47):
so I'm just gonna check no.
And I'm sitting there sobbingin the office, but because I check
no on the boxes, they're like,okay, you can have sex again.
Go ahead.
And I'm like, okay, thank you.
I think everybody knew, andeverybody tried to help in their
way.
They would come over, I havemy best friend's mom was so sweet.
(15:08):
She would come over andpretend that everything was perfectly
normal and be like, I'm justgonna clean your house.
And I'm like, oh, my God, myhouse is disgusting.
And she said, no, I love cleaning.
And she would just talk.
Just fill the silence and justtalk and clean my house.
My best friend would comeover, and she would just hold the
baby, and if I would becrying, she's, what do you need?
Uh huh.
Food.
(15:28):
What do you want?
So they definitely tried tooffer support, but no one really
came right out and said, hey,something's wrong.
And the way I got throughpostpartum depression and postpartum
anxiety with my first was just wait.
And I waited probably, like, a year.
And then slowly, I was justlike, oh, weird.
Life's not so bad anymore, huh?
I haven't cried today.
(15:49):
Oh, I feel like I'm breathing deeper.
I feel, like, lighter.
Oh, I haven't worried that mydaughter's face caved in today.
It was just these littlemoments of clarity that then became
the norm.
I think the base level anxietywas still there, but it was much
more manageable.
Yeah.
I just waited, at least withmy first.
(16:09):
Yeah.
Not a good approach.
No.
A year is a long time to suffer.
Yeah.
And I lost friends.
Some friends could see that Iwas struggling but didn't know how
to help.
And they just either told meflat out, like, I don't know what
to do.
You're not the same person.
Like, I don't want to talk toyou anymore.
Or they just slowly faded outof my life.
(16:31):
And I think my relationshipwith my husband suffered not, you
know, that we were ever in,like, a terrible place, but it was
like he could see that Iwasn't myself.
But also, how do you say toyour spouse, hey, you're not yourself?
Especially again.
Cause we were 21.
Yeah.
How do you see that?
How do you approach that?
We both just danced aroundthis intruder in our home.
(16:52):
That was postpartum depression.
And I can imagine being 21 andyour friend do not know how to help
you or even talk to you.
No.
They're out drinking andpartying and staying up late and
carefree, and they love you,and they want to support you, but
it's like watching a train wreck.
(17:14):
What do you do to stop it?
You don't, so you just watchit happen.
I had the conversations withmy mom, but also, her experience
was so different.
She went through a vitro, shefought to be here, and every mountain
she climbed was like, I don'tcare how hard it is.
This is the victory.
And then her experience washard for a different reason.
(17:36):
We were born super early.
We were very premature.
We were like two pounds each.
We were on heart monitors andin incubators, and we were getting
oxygen, and we were in theNICU forever.
So her entire postpartumexperience was really spent within
the hospital environment.
(17:56):
Her experience was just different.
Not to say she didn't struggle.
She absolutely struggled.
She had babies that she didn'tknow if they were going to survive
or nothing.
Imagine that burden.
But her experience was just different.
And also, the way we talkabout mental health is different.
I don't even think we werereally having that discussion.
I don't think it was reallyeven a thing.
So when did you become asocial worker?
Yeah.
So that journey, interestingly enough.
(18:19):
So I graduated high school,and I immediately started classes
at the community college.
I wanted to get my associate's degree.
I knew I wanted to go into thehelping field.
I wanted to be a therapist.
But then having a child at 21really put a hold on that.
So I was like, I'm going totake a semester off just to get adjusted
to, like, motherhood.
And that semester turned intoa ten year break and two kids.
(18:40):
Yeah.
So after I had my secondchild, which, again, I did experience
extreme postpartum depression,and that came with suicidality to
the point that I had a plan.
I had.
I think I'm lucky I made itout of that one alive.
That one.
I did have to seek help,because it was painfully obvious
that if somebody didn'tintervene, I was not gonna be here.
So after I got over that humpof that second postpartum depression
(19:03):
and extreme suicidality, Ireally had this overwhelming desire
to reclaim my own existence.
And I had never stopped working.
I was either doing homedaycare, I was a licensed home daycare
provider for a while.
With my first, I owned twoyoga studios.
I was a yoga teacher and a writer.
So I did all of these thingsaround parenting.
(19:24):
But also, I think it'simportant to note, too, that when
I say I was a home daycareprovider and people were listening
to this and they're like, oh,my God, if you were like that depressed,
how are you taking care ofother children?
But also, when I look back, mybrain was telling me I'm terrible
and I'm not worthy.
I'm not doing anything.
But if I look at home videosand stuff, I'm so engaged with my
kids, I'm laughing and I'm onthe floor playing with them, and
(19:44):
I'm taking them everywhere,and I'm doing these enrichment activities.
I'm doing all the things, butmy brain was telling me I'm doing
nothing.
So it's really interesting.
When I look back, I'm like,all of the evidence is there that
I was an excellent mother,that I was always present, I was
always kind, I was patient, Iwas loving, I was there, I was doing
things, but my brain wastelling me, you're not doing anything.
So that was an aside.
(20:05):
But.
So after the birth of mysecond child, when I really started
to question, what do I want todo with my life the rest of my life?
I would take my kids to myyoga studio and they would sit in
the back and nap or play withtoys while I taught yoga classes,
or I would do mommy me yogaclasses where everybody had their
(20:25):
kids.
And it was great and I loved it.
But there was still this pullof, I love yoga, I love meditation,
I love mindfulness, butthere's still.
I want more.
I want to be in the mentalhealth field because I almost lost
my life to mental illness.
And I know there's nothing.
I know there's more work to bedone and I want to be part of that
(20:47):
work.
So I went back to school and Ifinished my bachelor's degree and
I finished my master's degree,and I got back into the field and
it was this crazy transitionof, oh, my gosh.
I've always worked from homeor in an environment where I can
bring my kids.
What does this look like nowthat I'm working outside of the home?
(21:08):
My kids are older.
They're 13 and nine.
And when I started this acouple years ago, they were, I don't
know, six, seven and 1110 or eleven.
They were old enough, theywere at school, and I figured that
was the best time.
And both of them are in school.
Most of my working hours areduring the day.
I get home either right aroundthe same time they do or a little
(21:29):
later.
Now I work a couple latenights, but also, like, they don't
want anything to do with me.
Now they're like, I don't know.
Are you going to feed me dinner?
If you're going to feed medinner, I'm fine.
I just had to find my balanceand find my stride.
And it's interesting because Ialways thought if I'm not home, my
kids are going to think Idon't love them.
But my kids are always tellingme how proud they are of me, and
(21:49):
my kids are always telling methat the work I do is important.
And I love that becausethey're the ones building the confidence
in myself that I wasn't ableto see if that makes sense.
That's beautiful.
They know.
They're.
They're special little guys.
That's so beautiful.
Yeah, it is.
They're a gift, even whenthey're a menace.
(22:10):
I love my mom, and I don'tmean this in any negative light,
but my mom gave up her entirelife to raise kids.
That was her entire existence.
We were her purpose and herpassion and her world.
And she gave up everything tobe with us her entire life.
And what did that mean when wegrew up?
(22:30):
She had no sense of self.
She had no sense of identity.
So what do I do with my life?
My kids are grown.
My kids are gone.
Who am I?
And I saw that struggle, and Istill see that struggle unfolding
as my mom still tries to findher place in the world.
And she's a beautiful soul.
I love this woman to pieces,but it's sad to see her sometimes
question, who am I?
(22:51):
And what have I done with my life?
And I knew that I didn't wantthat for myself.
Not to say that being a stayat home mom is not incredible.
It is.
And if that is truly yourpassion, and that's where you belong,
and that's where you'rederiving, like, your fulfillment
from, that's excellent.
And also, what are you doingfor yourself?
Whether that's just self care,whether it's volunteer work, whether
(23:12):
it's part time job, whateverit is, whether it's just socializing
with friends outside of yourkids, whatever it is, don't lose
sight of the fact that you aremore than just a mom.
Mom can be your most treasuredrole, but it's not your entire identity.
And if we lose ourself in thatidentity, eventually it comes to
the surface, and you're like,I don't know who I am anymore.
(23:34):
And that hurts.
My schedule is still flexible enough.
If my kids need me, I'm gonnabe there.
I will shift clients.
I will cancel meetings.
I will be there.
But the majority of the day,they don't need me now.
And it's funny cause sometimesI'll be like, oh, my gosh, I have
an unexpected day off.
Do you guys want to do something?
And they're like, no.
Okay, cool.
(23:54):
But at night, that's when theyneed me again.
Like, my youngest, he stillwants me to read to him at night
and sing to him.
And my oldest doesn't wantthat, but she wants me to say goodnight.
She wants me there.
They want help with theirhomework, or they want to tell me
about whatever drama justhappened at school today, or whatever
win they just experienced atschool today.
(24:15):
So being present, it took me along time to realize that being present
looks different at each age.
So, yes, when they weretoddlers or infants, I was literally
always there because theyalways needed me.
I was their lifeline.
I was their everything.
But as they get older, theyneed me less.
And that's not a sign of menot being available.
That's a sign that I've raisedkids with healthy attachments, and
(24:37):
that's a sign that I've raisedkids with healthy sense of self and
confidence.
If they were still attached tome constantly at nine and 13, I'd
have to worry.
I'd have to worry.
Why can't you function outsideof my presence?
Yeah.
We don't raise them to staywith us forever.
We raise them to leave the nest.
(24:59):
We kill.
Yeah.
And I had to come to thatreality check because I'd be like,
oh, my gosh, I used to do somuch with them, and I used to be
in crafts all day long andbaking and cooking and taking them
on walks.
And I'm like, okay,realistically, julia, what would
happen if I told my kids,okay, all day long, you're gonna
be with mommy today, we'regonna bake, and we're gonna cook,
and we're gonna play games,and we're gonna do crafts?
They would be like, no, we'renot actually doing that.
(25:21):
It's different stages.
And in a way, I do have to saythat I'm grateful for my experience
with depression, withpostpartum depression.
I'm happy it didn't end mylife, obviously, but I'm grateful
for my experience because Ithink it makes me a better mom to
know what it looks like toovercome struggles.
(25:42):
I do have a child with mentalhealth struggles, and I think it
makes me more compassionateand more understanding.
Oh, yeah.
And I think it makes me abetter provider in the clinical sense,
is I'm not just relying on theory.
I'm not just relying onevidence based practice.
I'm relying on lived experiences.
And then it also helps becauseI can help break the stigma.
(26:04):
I can be like, yeah, my lifewas literally a shit show for several
years, but I'm fine now.
I'm good.
Life is great.
There's still challengesbecause it's life.
Life is comfortably uncomfortable.
Or the scarier thing is myfamily would be better off if I was
gone.
Those are the scary thoughts, right?
I am a burden.
(26:25):
I am a burden just by being here.
Yeah.
I think that's the scariestthought that goes through our head.
But when you say it out loud,you take away that power.
You take away its power.
Or someone.
At least you do.
And also, it's almost likefact checking.
It's like when I say it outloud, I'm like, okay, that doesn't
(26:45):
sound as great out loud as itsounds in my head.
Yeah.
And I think our minds are veryskilled at lying to us.
We really are.
We can convince ourselves ofsome really scary truths that aren't
true.
But our brain gives us all ofthe feedback and all of the supporting
(27:07):
evidence to prove that thosethoughts are true.
And then when we speak themout loud into existence and we really
start to actually fact checkit and do some reality checking,
we're like, you know what?
I don't think.
I don't think that's right.
I'm seeing little cracks here.
I'm seeing little flaws inthis logic.
I think so.
And then the problem is, howdo we get them comfortable?
(27:29):
When I have clients in myoffice who tell me they're suicidal,
who share their plan with me,who say I want to die, there's never
a look of shock on my face.
There's never this.
Oh, my gosh.
Why would you say that?
It's always, I'm so happy youtold me.
Thank you so much.
That is such a heavy burden tobear alone.
Let's talk about this.
(27:49):
Let me take some of that pain.
Let's work through this.
Why are we feeling that way?
And I always tell them they're brave.
I'm like, oh, my gosh.
You are so brave for sharingthat right now.
Thank you so much.
I know that took a lot of strength.
I know that took a lot of vulnerability.
I'm so proud of you.
That's one of the worst thingsyou'll ever do, and I'm so proud
of you.
And I think on a lot of theirfaces, you do see this.
My gosh, I just told the world.
(28:10):
I just told somebody mydeepest, darkest secret.
And I wasn't met with shock ordisgust or shame.
I was met with gratitude.
I was met with love.
I was met with support.
And then we start.
And with the safety planning,and then we start in with, okay,
what is our next step?
Are we safe if we go home today?
What supports do we need tobuild in?
What measures do we need totake to ensure that we can get you
(28:30):
through this?
Cause it's not a magic fix.
It's not.
Okay, thanks for telling me.
Bye.
We have to make sure they're safe.
But it's always with compassion.
It's always with kindness.
It's always with extreme gratitude.
And letting them know from astrength based perspective, like,
you have no idea the strengthit took for you to say that.
You might think it's aweakness that you are feeling this
way, but you walked in thisdoor, you sat down across from me,
(28:52):
looked me in the eye and toldme, I want to die.
What an incredible amount ofstrength it took to say that today.
So, yeah, I think that can beincredibly empowering, just giving
validation.
But I think it's reallyimportant to recognize that it's,
yes, I am doing important workas a clinician, but it's the people
on the other side of the room,the clients, they're doing the important
(29:14):
work.
They're the ones showing up.
They're the ones processing feelings.
They're the ones facinguncomfortable truths and taking the
next step and fighting anotherday and pushing through the discomfort
and learning distress, tolerance.
They are.
They're the ones reallyfighting the battle.
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