August 2, 2025 • 42 mins
What does it mean to truly show up for someone? In this powerful episode, Lucinda Koza speaks with psychologist and trauma specialist Dr. Kirsten Viola Harrison about her decade-long friendship with Sean/a—an intersex woman who overcame the hardest obstacles of homelessness and schizophrenia to become a beacon of strength and joy.
Together, they explore what happens when we take a chance on one another. From daily Starbucks chats to a worldwide Pride tour, this is the story of two women who changed each other’s lives—and a whole community in the process.
Topics We Cover:
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Sean/a’s resilience and life as an intersex woman living unhoused
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The emotional and spiritual power of allyship
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Post-traumatic growth and surviving the “dark night of the soul”
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Living with schizophrenia without medication
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Finding hope, dignity, and connection in unexpected places
Guest:
Dr. Kirsten Viola Harrison is a psychologist with 35+ years of experience in trauma work. She is the co-author of I, Sean/a: The Story of a Homeless Intersex Woman Who Inspired a Community.
Resources & Mentions:
📖 I, Sean/a — Available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Goodreads
🌐 Learn more about Sean/a’s story on TikTok (1M+ views!)
🗺️ Pride around the world: Sean/a’s first international journey at age 59
Follow & Subscribe:
If this episode moved you, please follow, rate, and share How I Ally. Your support helps amplify voices that deserve to be heard.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Um, I'm Lucinda Koza and I'm here with a really fabulous guest that I'm super excited about.
Would you please introduce yourself and give a little bio backstory blurb, please? Certainly.
(00:24):
Hi, I am Dr.
Kirsten Viola Harrison, and I am a psychologist specializing in trauma disorders over 35 years of practice.
And I recently co-wrote a book with um, somebody.
Named Seana, who was formerly homeless.
Um, we've supported her for 10 years in housing now.
(00:47):
Um, she's what they call intersex, which is, um, a confusing thing for some people who haven't heard of it.
It used to be known as hermaphrodite.
Um, it's, it's.
Definitely something in the press right now.
And she's just an incredible human being who forged community everywhere she went, even though she slept outside on cardboard for eight years.
(01:09):
So I've kind of come to understand truly what it means to be a friend to Ally.
I've never worked with her clinically.
However, um, our story unfolded together over the last 10 years.
So we decided to write a book about it.
Oh my goodness.
This is so fascinating.
(01:31):
Um, how did you meet, I know you don't wanna give too much away, I'm sure you're like, go buy the book.
Yeah.
Well.
It was one of those things where we live in a small town, um, LA Jolla, California, about 40,000 people.
And so you start to see people at different places, the grocery store, the tennis courts, whatever.
(01:56):
And I noticed that I was married at the time to a professional tennis player, and so we always noticed Seana hanging out at the tennis courts as Sean, and then one day.
I looked to my ex-husband and I was like, I think that Sean, only now Sean is wearing like bright bikini tops and skirts and wigs.
And I'm like, huh, I wonder what the story is there.
(02:18):
And so I just saw her many times and one day at the Starbucks I just said, Hey, would you like a drink? Do you wanna just hang out and talk for a minute? And she said, sure.
And from there I would see her maybe like weekly or different times.
Then I would.
Kind of realized that maybe she wasn't quite, I didn't realize she was homeless, but I kind of realized that maybe she was struggling a little bit.
(02:42):
So I'd kind of, you know, give her a gift card or bring some items from, you know, from my closet that maybe she could, you know, like a coat or something.
And over time we just started having a series of conversations.
And that's, um, I can go into it a little bit, but.
I found out she was homeless or unhoused, and so I put her up in a hotel and then I called the local newspaper and I said, we have to do something.
(03:09):
We have to help her.
She's such an incredible spirit, she's so optimistic, and maybe we could do a GoFundMe.
And then the rest is history.
10 years later, she's been in a great apartment.
She is spreading the word.
We just got back from a world, um, a worldwide trip.
Um, going to all the pride events first time out of the country for her at age 59, and we did a three week trip together.
(03:32):
So it's been really exciting.
Oh my goodness.
Oh my gosh.
That is so, it's such a incredible gift for both of you and for all of the people involved to.
(03:53):
Change.
Someone's circumstances in such a huge way.
Absolutely.
I, I will say, I love what you just said about for both involved and for all involved because it has created such a, a ripple effect of positivity in our community, and Seana is just one of those natural.
(04:18):
Conversationalist, she's very upbeat.
She does struggle with schizophrenia.
And that is, I think part of why I was initially drawn to wanting to help her because I could understand that she had something else going on that she was struggling with.
Um, we've really processed a lot of, like post-traumatic growth.
I mean, I'm just her friend.
I'm not her therapist, but.
(04:38):
We have influenced each other's lives in countless ways.
Um, during the course of this relationship, I was given a pretty traumatic, uh, diagnosis.
Uh, six years ago they said, I, it's erroneous, but they said I had a year to live.
So of course I had to process that with my kids, my ex-husband, my family.
(04:58):
And, um, Seana gave me positive messages by text every single day until they told me actually they were wrong doing a biopsy, it was something else.
So I still have an underlying condition, but it has nothing dire like that.
So, um, I will say that our relationship has become such a mutually beneficially positive force in our lives and in the community.
(05:25):
Oh my gosh.
Take a chance on people.
Right, Right.
You had to cross that initial divide that Yes.
Was there.
Yes.
And as you, I, I know the title of all of the things you do has to do with being an ally.
(05:45):
And honestly, I think being an ally is just, it's so vital and it's the most important thing we can do.
And first of all, to know that we always have the capacity to help somebody else along in their journey to act as a catalyst to maybe further the process along.
Right.
And then for someone.
Who is being, you know, kind of in that relationship, maybe being allied or whatever you would call it to be open and receptive to the fact that somebody's there and maybe avail yourself of this loving energy.
(06:16):
And.
Sometimes the allyship comes from a spiritual source or an energetic source that we tap into when we feel like we just sort of are, are too traumatized to maybe connect with other people or we feel like they don't understand, or whatever the bridge is that feels insurpassable.
(06:36):
I feel like there's always an ally if we just open our hearts to that.
If we just kind of like realize something unseen is always caring for us, just tap in.
Oh, oh my gosh, that hits so hard.
That hits me so hard because it is.
(06:58):
It can be very hard to open up.
At times of your life? Mm-hmm.
How, I mean, how, how, how do you stay open when you feel like there, there can't possibly be anything good.
(07:25):
Out there for you.
Oh, I understand that completely.
The urge to kind of, and I would say follow it.
Sometimes lean into the biological imperative to sort of shut down and incubate and hibernate for a little bit.
If that's what is calling you, then you need to pay attention to that.
However, even in those moments, something is helping you regulate.
(07:48):
You may not understand it.
Mm.
You may, may not see it.
Something is unfolding you, right.
Whether it's.
I mean, my belief completely after speaking to thousands of near-death experiencers in my dissertation research, I absolutely believe that something is holding us at all times, but in on our earthly journey, sometimes it may just be a really good friend or maybe a stranger.
(08:11):
It may be somebody, and we just need to try to get the courage to just open that a little bit and see what happens.
Because remember, we can always close it back up again.
If it's not resonating or if it's feeling too triggering or too something, we can just shut it down.
And then by feeling like we were in this together, connected to something bigger, it felt like something was holding both of us in this journey and gave us strength to keep moving forward.
(08:41):
And as they say that, just do the next right step for you.
Right.
Oh my gosh.
This feels, um.
Transcendent.
It.
I, first of all, I, I really operate in life.
After hearing so many very traumatic stories and having been through a few of my own, I have a hundred percent realize that we are on earth to constantly learn and grow.
(09:09):
It's not supposed to be easy.
We have different tasks.
We don't know why.
Sometimes we just say, mercy, please, like too much.
But there's always something until our last breath that will propel us.
Forward, and it's just this deep nudge from the soul.
And for whatever reason, I don't know if it's because I have worked so much with trauma disorders that I recognize something very unique and different about Seana's ability to survive and her resilience.
(09:39):
But it's kept me forward all this time.
Oh, that's exactly what, that's exactly why.
And I didn't even know at first what I was.
What compelled me to do this work.
(10:03):
But I, I realized along the way that what I was so interested in was that, that post traumatic growth or that Yes.
That survive, that will to survive.
Mm-hmm.
That that rebuilding, because I.
Because I, looking back now, I know that I have been through that and at the time I, I, it wasn't clear, but now it's clear and I just, I think that's the most fascinating thing that human beings do.
(10:42):
Absolutely.
I mean, when we are in that, what of course they call the dark night of the soul, when we're in that sort of phase of like, we're in this murky place and we don't have a guide and we dunno what's going on.
It's like there are some signposts out there.
Whether we open to them or not is part of our journey.
Sometimes we need to just completely hunker down and that's just how it goes.
(11:04):
Again, that's when I believe something much bigger is called upon to hold us in guide.
And, but the more that we can kind of, they say in longevity, um, research that your social connections are so vital for longevity.
And I believe the reason why is because they're constantly giving you new ideas, new ways to think about something new, um, avenues and just sort of.
(11:27):
Puts your whole being back into homeostasis because we all regulate each other, and so it's just, again, it's just this openness to understanding that sometimes, sometimes your best friend might be in so much grief that you just don't know at all how to help.
However, just the being with and just witnessing and just being there, even not saying a thing for days.
(11:53):
Is healing.
Someone doesn't feel so cast out and by themselves, and Seana could teach us all about what it's like.
Um, I asked her one time after the book was written, and after we've been doing these tours, I said, Seana, how did you wake up every single morning? And not just sort of give up and think, I'll never get out of this.
And she said, I woke up every day curious doc.
(12:16):
I loved thinking What's today gonna bring? How's it gonna be different? And I just thought.
How can we all just incorporate that, you know, just into our daily lives? Oh my gosh, that's incredible.
She's a very unique person, but we all have this ability to me and an ally to seek out allies, to open ourselves.
(12:43):
Again, everybody focuses on kind of like the self work, the preparation, the readiness.
To be healed or to be, um, to be helped.
And it's, it really is so important to just take that time if, um.
Whatever it is.
It doesn't need to be proper therapy.
It could be just that meditative walk that you really need to take.
(13:04):
Seana walks a half a marathon a day, and she calls it her mood walk therapy, but for her, it regulates her system.
Um, physiologically, of course, she gets even more endorphins, but the benefit also is because she does have a lot of internal distress with her schizophrenia and her voices.
She walks very late at night, away from everybody.
(13:25):
In the desert air and then just sort of lets it out.
And that's her way of being able to manage without medications.
She has taken the, wow, I know one of the things that has been really important, she, um, really has had a long family history of, you know, different, um, medical conditions and she was scared that medicines might make those physical conditions worth worse.
(13:49):
And as an athlete, that was.
An intolerable risk.
So she's found other creative ways to reset and rebalance, and it's so important that we know what that is for ourselves, you know? Hmm.
So knowing thyself, as they always say, is really, really important.
Try to know what works for you.
(14:10):
Yes.
And don't pass judgment or anything on it.
And that's work.
I mean, that's.
It takes work.
Absolutely.
It does.
I mean, for my daughter, it might be running 10 miles.
For me, it might be a box of donuts, you know, again, no judgment, but it, the reality is it's like if I need to curl up on a couch, in a book, in a blanket, and that's my way of kind of just cocooning and resetting.
(14:38):
That's what I need to do.
But if a friend then says, okay, it's been five days, let's go on a walk.
I might not feel like it, but if I shove myself in that direction, it's unbelievable the transformations that can happen.
And the reality is now the young people, I say young, you know, early twenties, my daughter's generation, they just, they call it something that I think is beautiful.
(15:03):
They say, you know, my social battery's running low.
I just need a little bit of charging, plug it in time and for themselves.
And they seem to be able to give themselves permission.
Whereas a lot of us are like, no, we have to this or we have to that.
And you know, Seana, for instance, she spends a good, good portion of the day now.
In her apartment when she was unhoused, she felt like she was on all the time, you know? Oh, she couldn't ever get away and ever turn off.
(15:30):
But she found a way to just sort of engage anyone in conversation that was curious.
And it just kind of passed the time and passed the day and it gave her a reset.
And sometimes if it was too much, she went down to the beach and just took a really long walk and that did it.
There's always somebody that's going through something.
(15:51):
I don't wanna say even worse or even harder, but honestly in the world there's so much tragedy and trauma sometimes that there will always be somebody to be able to relate.
There will always be somebody or somebody thing that you read about that makes you realize, you know what, I can have gratitude because.
(16:12):
My situation maybe could have been that.
Yeah.
And that those little tiny bits of gratitude start to then build on themselves and then it becomes like this wave of, I got this, I can get through this.
There, there must be like, uh, being unhoused there, there has to be a sense of.
(16:36):
Exposure and not having control over when you're exposed and, and you know, when you don't wanna be exposed.
Oh, absolutely.
And that must really have an effect.
Uh, absolutely.
Uh, I experienced that a little bit because I started.
(17:00):
You know, every time I would go to the Broadway show or something, I would always have little things in my purse that I could give out to people that I saw downtown that were unhoused.
And it was really interesting, like you're saying, some people just curled up under that blankie and they would maybe peek out a little, just enough to hear that I was bringing something.
Other people were just out there trying to engage and talk and find, look in everybody's eyes to see if they would be kind and helpful that day.
(17:26):
It's.
Such an unbelievably life altering experience, I would imagine, because I have not been unhoused to be at completely at the mercy of your surroundings.
But even then, again, I would direct us, you know, to another realm where it's like something, some energy is in this like little.
(17:46):
Protective shield, protective bubble, maybe forces guiding.
I wrote a, um, a chapter of the book on synchronicities because it was really unbelievable how many synchronicities happened around Seana with different people in the community.
And so when I asked Seana about these things, I said, what do you make of this? And she said, well, maybe some force or some energy realizes that somebody needs a reminder that we're all in this together in a bigger way.
(18:16):
And so maybe that's why when they think about me, I just happen to appear.
And I thought.
That's a beautiful way to look at it.
Like why, when you're most despairing, does somebody just say, oh, hey, do you want this? You know, whatever it is, Starbucks card.
I just found it.
And you're thinking, how did they just know that I was really struggling today for whatever.
(18:37):
But she just sort of always, she talks about, this is so self-evident.
And I think that we rationalize our way through life and we forget.
Hmm.
And to somebody who's really been at the mercy of all of that lack of control on some level, has found a way to just say, okay, let's roll with it.
(19:01):
Let's see what it opens me up to today.
Uh, that is so beautiful.
And it's hard.
It's hard to stay open.
Like you said, it's hard to just not wanna get upset or angry or feel like no one can relate or whatever it is.
And there are some really deep traumas that happen and it would be, it would feel insurmountable sometimes, but it's.
(19:30):
Somehow there is protective, loving energy that wants to help us in our journeys towards healing.
And I remember when I got my diagnosis, my ex-husband would be sleeping happily in the bed and I would be staring out at the ocean thinking, oh my gosh, this is my clock now.
(19:50):
I only have a year, so this is like one more 24 hour period.
And I was so.
Terrified of that.
Yet, if I just put my hand over onto my husband's back, like as he was breathing, I felt life.
I felt connection.
Even if he was happily sleeping, I felt you know what? I'm not alone.
Or I would get online and I would see people talking about different things and I just thought, okay, somebody somewhere is going through something even harder and it just, it's so restorative.
(20:22):
Yes.
That we're in this all together is, it's so key.
Mm.
It's so key.
Yes.
Yes.
And and you have to open your heart to believing that, because I think that's what Seana, I mean, we've been in this journey together for 10 years.
(20:46):
I mean.
We could have stopped after I got her some housing, like of course.
I couldn't really, because I was still in there helping her because the GoFundMe covered for a year and a half.
And then it's sort of been our journey to do this together.
But, um, it every day just brought some new awareness or awakening or when she would struggle with a new construct, like, how do I really trust, it's been so long since I felt like I could fully trust and it was like.
(21:18):
We healed each other, we helped each other, and then we just opened up to this big kind of like collective growth experience that I feel like everybody's doing in one shape or another.
One form or another.
We're all just trying to make sense of this existence.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's, I mean, if you think about it, I mean, that's why people go to church.
(21:44):
I mean, exactly.
That's why people gather and have yes rituals and they're just, it looks different throughout the.
Absolutely.
And I will say that Seana has, she does attend four online services a week.
She's very, my goodness, Christian in her background and upbringing, and I, I honestly believe that that faith, whatever it looks like, um.
(22:14):
Kept her going, it just kept her moving forward.
There was a purpose.
She used to find little scraps of paper to journal things that would remind her what day of the week it was and, um, what her challenge was that day that she could focus on to get her through.
And it, it's just so she kept believing.
She kept believing that there.
(22:36):
Was something there and that she could act in a dignified manner to, to approach whatever it was that was challenging her.
And like the basis of being a Christian is that Jesus suffered the most, right? Yes.
(22:57):
Like some, the, you know, whatever you're going through is.
Is not as bad or, you're comforted by what, what Jesus Jesus's suffering was for you.
Absolutely.
And that's supposed to be comforting, which is exactly what you were just saying.
(23:19):
Absolutely.
And, and I've often thought of Seana as a walking spirit.
I feel like she does sort of.
In a very strange way, bridge both worlds.
Like it's actually kind of uncanny sometimes.
I've been like, is that Jesus? You know, it's really interesting.
It's because the way she kind of just, people malign her because of her mental illness, because sometimes when she's in her state talking to some of her voices, it can be a little bit loud and scary to some people, but I always instruct them and say.
(23:47):
Hey, just say, Hey Seana, and just have an open, welcoming energy, and she'll snap right out of it.
But, um, she definitely mentions so many times about that suffering and struggle is, is not the thing that we should put our energy on.
What we should put our energy on is how we can keep.
Finding another reason to start the day fresh and try to learn something more about our journey because it will be over quickly.
(24:15):
I mean, we're not here on earth forever.
We, some of us wish we were sometimes, you know, but.
We have this time to learn these different lessons.
And if you believe some of the people who talk about the Godhead also wanting to learn through us that what we experience, the good and the bad, the polarity is something that is sort of part of our task to bring up to another realm.
(24:39):
So it's kind of.
Yeah, I've never heard that.
Wow.
Well, if you look at it that way, it's okay, we're supposed to do this.
This is part of the mission.
Like, wow, we can't just go up to have an mb, I mean, whatever people's belief system is and say, okay, we wanted to recreate that down here all the time.
It's like, well, but where's the learning? Where's the contrast? What did you learn from the dark that then opened you so much to the light? You know? Right.
(25:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The yin and the yang.
I mean the, you have to have both.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But when I was thinking about your whole thing of allying, I mean it's, I don't know how any of us would get through anything if we didn't believe somewhere somehow that there was someone or something that was trying to get in there with us and get it and hold us.
(25:38):
Move us to the next level.
Um, and again, for Seana, it might have been a couple that religiously sort of, routinely, um, would put a $20 bill by her cardboard, like every week there some, and, and one day she kind of opened her eye low.
She saw this couple and they were, they never.
Wanted to be known.
They just sort of did this nice little thing.
(26:00):
Um, the people who would, you know, give her a pizza at the back door at the end of the day, so she had some food or the manager that she would always, you know, like at the tennis shop, she would do all sorts of different things.
She'd collect the balls on the court, just out of the goodness of her heart.
But then they would do some little favor, like the tennis club would invite her to.
Um, a big event they were having so she could have some food.
(26:24):
But it's like, this is all examples of how we all constantly bring our energy to mingle with each other without consciously having to seek it out.
And then that keeps moving us forward.
And it's like breaking bread.
It's like the Jesus thing.
It's like you're always seeing how you can multiply an effect of energy and generosity.
(26:50):
Yes.
Yes.
Because you never know what effect you've had on someone.
Exactly, exactly that.
That is the essence of everything.
You just don't know, and it doesn't mean you have to walk around smiling all the time.
I mean, I'm a pretty smiley person, but it definitely came through years of dark.
(27:13):
I had a brother who died in a very tragic accident, and that was when I was 22.
Here.
I had been just happily doing my life and then that happened and I had to go in a little nest of my own for a little while.
But then as I read so many people having near death experiences, and I read so much about the meaning of life and Viktor Frankl and like the struggle and the suffering, but it all has meaning.
(27:40):
And I just thought, you know, that's what I'm gonna choose to hang on to.
That's gonna give me meaning no matter what the day brings.
And.
Yeah, maybe it was a smile that day that had a ripple effect on someone else, but it could also have been a tear.
I could have been sad that day and that brought out someone's feeling of compassion.
So you never know what it is, but just recognizing that we are all in this together is right, is the healing force.
(28:08):
And I will say, I know Seana and I will have an incredible friendship, till the end of time.
I mean, we just, we both are just.
Like, so understanding of the fact that it takes a village to get through this life and, it's such a privilege to be, to be on this planet.
(28:29):
No matter what we're going through, we have this chance to learn all this and yeah, some of the darkest nights.
You know, one of the things that healed me a lot when my brother had his accident was, um, working with a lot of kids in child development who had had really abusive situations because I was able to say, oh, yes, this horrible thing just happened to my family.
(28:52):
However, these kids didn't have maybe this, that I had, or there's always a point of comparison.
And then I was able to give them love and support and they also showed me through their, you know, tears or their laughter that.
We're all just getting through.
Yeah.
You know? Yeah.
(29:12):
And even if the point, the point is just trying to, or exploring what is the point with others.
Exactly.
That's enough.
That is enough.
It's always enough.
It's always enough.
Yeah.
And for whatever reason, like that whole catalyst thing, I do believe that, um.
(29:33):
You know, if you think about a catalyst and a chemical reaction, something that speeds up a process.
So it's like if someone's a catalyst for you to all of a sudden be more enraged because something made you angry and somebody fueled that, or to be more, um, forgiving or compassionate or, or sad so that you can get through your grief process a little bit deeper.
(29:55):
Mm-hmm.
You know, short or whatever.
Um, it's, we all have this ability to have this effect on each other.
And so, I, my whole thing is take a chance on unlikely situations that involve a leap of faith with people.
Um, my daughter gets embarrassed sometimes 'cause I am that type that if somebody looks sad somewhere, I just sort of send them a little heart signal, like.
(30:19):
You're not alone, you know, and maybe that person wants say, okay, well F off.
I didn't need that.
It Well, but then that still brought their, whatever it was, to the four that they needed to Yeah.
To deal with, you know? Yes.
So, um, we just, just be, and just do what you need to do.
But remember in your moments of like most despairing to take a little cue from Seana that she always just kind of had an eye open, like, huh.
(30:49):
An attitude of curiosity and a little bit of an attitude of, all right, if this is my lot, let's see where it goes.
Can really shift everything.
Yes, yes.
I, I love that and I love the catalyst thing, like even if it's uncomfortable.
(31:15):
Yes.
It is still it still worth something for you? Absolutely.
It's like a firework.
You light it off and at first it makes a big bang and it's scary.
And a flame goes through the whatever, the wick or whatever, and then all of a sudden it's like, boom.
(31:37):
Look at all that beauty.
Look at all that light.
Look at all that color, you know? Yeah.
Yes.
Oh my God.
That's just, that's really profound actually.
Wow.
Being human is so complex and profound and can feel so many different levels of isolation or connection, but it, I, I think.
(32:07):
If there's something that somebody needs to hear, that there's always hope, have faith things Seana said, she always knew, always knew.
She held this for eight years, sleeping on cardboard.
She always knew that one day things were gonna change.
I mean how, but she just had this super deep knowing and so it's, it's like, did that come from Hope? Was it, where was that? Where, where did that little kernel come from? But to me, you know, I do believe in these unseen forces that guide and hold, and there was that sliver of something in her heart that went.
(32:46):
It's gonna get better.
So until it does, I'm going to act as if and then keep moving along.
You know, she would walk four miles to her cold freezing shower without a towel because she thought, okay, I'll get up, I'll greet the day, I'll go do this.
She had good hygiene.
She didn't let herself completely resonate with the fact that, you know, I do sleep on cardboard at night outside.
(33:12):
Mm-hmm.
It was like her inner spark of.
Well, it's gonna get better, so I better be ready.
Yeah, really manifested.
We are all doing our best.
We are human.
We're doing our best to try to be good stewards of that and be humanitarians and fight for social justice and human rights and dignity.
(33:37):
All of that is so important.
Like in your case, like you're giving voice and you're trying to spread certain currents of understanding.
And you may think, okay, I am in a basement doing a podcast with the head, you know, and I'm just sort of hunkering down from the news.
But I see it as, oh my gosh, look at the reach now look at what you're doing with that to catalyze.
(34:03):
The process, Yeah.
Oh my God, I love, oh, thank you for saying that.
Uh, I love that.
I love that, that, that's very helpful.
You know, we're just, we're all doing our best to try to figure out what way to, like somehow alchemize.
(34:28):
All of this energy and all of these feelings and all of this difficulty being human confusion.
Mm-hmm.
Complexity and bring it out in our own little way that furthers the whole species along.
And that's.
I look at it all like that.
I look at Seana, I've had really difficult moments with her in terms of, not with her per se, but when I've been alongside her, like when we were in Europe and we were at certain, we were at the pride parades, I was supporting her talking about intersex.
(35:02):
Um, but she would get so much hate sometimes.
And it was.
She just looked at me and said, you know what, doc? It's just all part of it.
Like she has this attitude of like, I'm not gonna let anything stick.
It's just moving through.
Right? And then I just look at her and I go, okay, so she can act like that.
(35:22):
Then I don't have to get all ruffled and try to defend her, whatever.
I can just let her know I am here in solidarity, I'm here.
I'm, maybe I'm 10 steps behind.
Maybe I'm 10 steps forward, but I'm here.
And, um.
And then we just kind of keep learning and then we come home, we get on podcasts, we write articles or, and it's like then the whole collective moves forward.
(35:45):
And so that's why this kind of work that you do is so important because it moves it forward in whatever way it needs to, through everyone's different filters, and then it just keeps.
Metabolizing the way that it needs to, you know? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(36:11):
Just, I know exactly what you're saying.
I, there's always, I don't like, I don't like saying this, but there's always gonna be that like.
Uh, noise that like rough noise and yeah, re responding to it is not, it's not the best way to u to utilize, even though I want to, you know, it's not the best way to utilize my.
(36:56):
Self and, but if it felt that day like it was, if you felt you needed to just do a rah, you know, then that's important too, because for somebody, they needed to feel resonant with that energy, you know? Yes.
So I guess the whole thing is just non.
Judgment really.
I, we were in, um, Paris in this beautiful gallery Lafayette, and it's this huge beautiful domed upscale shopping mall.
(37:24):
And I sat with Seana and it was a particularly stressful day for her because there had been a lot of energy and people and judging.
And, um, I sat down and her voices were starting to get a little intense, and I had become part of her system by then.
So she was then arguing.
With me inside of her head, but outside of her head.
(37:45):
And so I was like, doc Seana, can you tell me what's going on? And she was like, doc, doc don't press.
And I just looked at her human to human deep in her eyes and I said, it must be so hard to like tune out all that noise all the time.
This is why I'm telling you this.
'cause you mentioned that with noise.
And she, I said, it must just be so hard to always have to fight against these messages that you know are not true, but they're coming from somewhere and, um, how do you do it? And she just said, Ugh, thank you so much for recognizing that, that it is so stressful that we all have all this noise that we're always trying to steer like the course and try to ignore it.
(38:26):
And she said, I just do my best doc.
And I said, well, I'm here with you, Shana, you know, and.
This is kind of an example, a metaphor for the collective.
It's like, how do we tune out all this noise and Yes, keep forging forward, yes.
So.
I figured if she can do it, when it's coming up her, from her against her, when the calls are coming from inside the house, it's like, yeah, exactly.
(38:54):
Exactly.
Yeah.
You feel like, you know what? Just pull on something.
Pull on something to just keep going.
But yeah, I'm grateful that you do what you do because thank you so much.
It helps a lot of people to feel.
Yeah.
Just that someone gets them, they're with them.
(39:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you for having me.
I can't wait to read the book and I'm excited When, so is it, tell me, tell us the, the details.
(39:36):
Okay, so it's called I Seana.
The story of a homeless intersex woman who inspired a community.
It's on Amazon.
Barnes and Noble.
You can get it good reads different places.
Uh, there, uh.
The main goal.
She got a million views on TikTok, which of course I am completely non-social media savvy, but my daughter's like, wow, mom.
(40:00):
That's pretty big deal.
Yeah.
So, but it, the whole, and, and there are a lot of haters, right? But because they don't understand Seana and how she's.
So different and whatever.
But my point is I'm always trying to find ways to bring people to her story of resilience and survival to how she dug so deep all the time, no matter what.
(40:22):
And um, even in her awareness that she would love a personal relationship, but it's probably not in the cards for her.
The way she imagines, I mean, she doesn't take meds.
She's got a pretty extreme.
Mental illness that she deals with.
However, she says, you know what, doc, maybe that's not my path.
Uh, I'll just, put a lover's lock up in Paris pretending that one day I'll have, you know, and I'm just like, I just support all of this thinking, you know what, we can all learn from this.
(40:50):
We can all learn from the times that we don't feel in partnership or we don't feel understood, or we feel isolated from everyone.
We can still find a way to join everyone else, you know? Mm-hmm.
So.
Along with being able to read all about it in the book, which is my hope because we poured our souls into that.
I really hope somebody could take a passage or a sentence out of there and really have it speak to them.
(41:14):
I would love that 342 pages of a journey and how we helped each other.
But also we will definitely be doing much more in the future.
Um, trying to educate, trying to take it to the schools, bring it into a curricula, different things to impact young people and hopefully get it to something bigger, streaming something because her message is pretty powerful.
(41:41):
Yeah, and I think it puts a lot of things in perspective, so yeah.
But please read the book.
I would be surprised.
Oh, I'll, because I think every single person would find their own way through something and I bring in the near death experiencers and I bring in different things that really kind of, talk about how we're never alone and to use that in our daily lives.
(42:04):
Yeah, which you do.
I can see that.
I love it.
I'm so excited to read the book.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for doing this and for being here.
Thanks for the opportunity and I'm just, I'm thrilled to just see what you're gonna do next and just all of this energy propagating forward.
(42:29):
Thank you.
And let's keep in touch.
Absolutely.
That would be great.
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay, great.
Okay, thanks.
Bye.
Um, I'm Lucinda Koza and I'm here with a really fabulous guest that I'm super excited about.
Would you please introduce yourself and give a little bio backstory blurb, please? Certainly.
(00:24):
Hi, I am Dr.
Kirsten Viola Harrison, and I am a psychologist specializing in trauma disorders over 35 years of practice.
And I recently co-wrote a book with um, somebody.
Named Seana, who was formerly homeless.
Um, we've supported her for 10 years in housing now.
(00:47):
Um, she's what they call intersex, which is, um, a confusing thing for some people who haven't heard of it.
It used to be known as hermaphrodite.
Um, it's, it's.
Definitely something in the press right now.
And she's just an incredible human being who forged community everywhere she went, even though she slept outside on cardboard for eight years.
(01:09):
So I've kind of come to understand truly what it means to be a friend to Ally.
I've never worked with her clinically.
However, um, our story unfolded together over the last 10 years.
So we decided to write a book about it.
Oh my goodness.
This is so fascinating.
(01:31):
Um, how did you meet, I know you don't wanna give too much away, I'm sure you're like, go buy the book.
Yeah.
Well.
It was one of those things where we live in a small town, um, LA Jolla, California, about 40,000 people.
And so you start to see people at different places, the grocery store, the tennis courts, whatever.
(01:56):
And I noticed that I was married at the time to a professional tennis player, and so we always noticed Seana hanging out at the tennis courts as Sean, and then one day.
I looked to my ex-husband and I was like, I think that Sean, only now Sean is wearing like bright bikini tops and skirts and wigs.
And I'm like, huh, I wonder what the story is there.
(02:18):
And so I just saw her many times and one day at the Starbucks I just said, Hey, would you like a drink? Do you wanna just hang out and talk for a minute? And she said, sure.
And from there I would see her maybe like weekly or different times.
Then I would.
Kind of realized that maybe she wasn't quite, I didn't realize she was homeless, but I kind of realized that maybe she was struggling a little bit.
(02:42):
So I'd kind of, you know, give her a gift card or bring some items from, you know, from my closet that maybe she could, you know, like a coat or something.
And over time we just started having a series of conversations.
And that's, um, I can go into it a little bit, but.
I found out she was homeless or unhoused, and so I put her up in a hotel and then I called the local newspaper and I said, we have to do something.
(03:09):
We have to help her.
She's such an incredible spirit, she's so optimistic, and maybe we could do a GoFundMe.
And then the rest is history.
10 years later, she's been in a great apartment.
She is spreading the word.
We just got back from a world, um, a worldwide trip.
Um, going to all the pride events first time out of the country for her at age 59, and we did a three week trip together.
(03:32):
So it's been really exciting.
Oh my goodness.
Oh my gosh.
That is so, it's such a incredible gift for both of you and for all of the people involved to.
(03:53):
Change.
Someone's circumstances in such a huge way.
Absolutely.
I, I will say, I love what you just said about for both involved and for all involved because it has created such a, a ripple effect of positivity in our community, and Seana is just one of those natural.
(04:18):
Conversationalist, she's very upbeat.
She does struggle with schizophrenia.
And that is, I think part of why I was initially drawn to wanting to help her because I could understand that she had something else going on that she was struggling with.
Um, we've really processed a lot of, like post-traumatic growth.
I mean, I'm just her friend.
I'm not her therapist, but.
(04:38):
We have influenced each other's lives in countless ways.
Um, during the course of this relationship, I was given a pretty traumatic, uh, diagnosis.
Uh, six years ago they said, I, it's erroneous, but they said I had a year to live.
So of course I had to process that with my kids, my ex-husband, my family.
(04:58):
And, um, Seana gave me positive messages by text every single day until they told me actually they were wrong doing a biopsy, it was something else.
So I still have an underlying condition, but it has nothing dire like that.
So, um, I will say that our relationship has become such a mutually beneficially positive force in our lives and in the community.
(05:25):
Oh my gosh.
Take a chance on people.
Right, Right.
You had to cross that initial divide that Yes.
Was there.
Yes.
And as you, I, I know the title of all of the things you do has to do with being an ally.
(05:45):
And honestly, I think being an ally is just, it's so vital and it's the most important thing we can do.
And first of all, to know that we always have the capacity to help somebody else along in their journey to act as a catalyst to maybe further the process along.
Right.
And then for someone.
Who is being, you know, kind of in that relationship, maybe being allied or whatever you would call it to be open and receptive to the fact that somebody's there and maybe avail yourself of this loving energy.
(06:16):
And.
Sometimes the allyship comes from a spiritual source or an energetic source that we tap into when we feel like we just sort of are, are too traumatized to maybe connect with other people or we feel like they don't understand, or whatever the bridge is that feels insurpassable.
(06:36):
I feel like there's always an ally if we just open our hearts to that.
If we just kind of like realize something unseen is always caring for us, just tap in.
Oh, oh my gosh, that hits so hard.
That hits me so hard because it is.
(06:58):
It can be very hard to open up.
At times of your life? Mm-hmm.
How, I mean, how, how, how do you stay open when you feel like there, there can't possibly be anything good.
(07:25):
Out there for you.
Oh, I understand that completely.
The urge to kind of, and I would say follow it.
Sometimes lean into the biological imperative to sort of shut down and incubate and hibernate for a little bit.
If that's what is calling you, then you need to pay attention to that.
However, even in those moments, something is helping you regulate.
(07:48):
You may not understand it.
Mm.
You may, may not see it.
Something is unfolding you, right.
Whether it's.
I mean, my belief completely after speaking to thousands of near-death experiencers in my dissertation research, I absolutely believe that something is holding us at all times, but in on our earthly journey, sometimes it may just be a really good friend or maybe a stranger.
(08:11):
It may be somebody, and we just need to try to get the courage to just open that a little bit and see what happens.
Because remember, we can always close it back up again.
If it's not resonating or if it's feeling too triggering or too something, we can just shut it down.
And then by feeling like we were in this together, connected to something bigger, it felt like something was holding both of us in this journey and gave us strength to keep moving forward.
(08:41):
And as they say that, just do the next right step for you.
Right.
Oh my gosh.
This feels, um.
Transcendent.
It.
I, first of all, I, I really operate in life.
After hearing so many very traumatic stories and having been through a few of my own, I have a hundred percent realize that we are on earth to constantly learn and grow.
(09:09):
It's not supposed to be easy.
We have different tasks.
We don't know why.
Sometimes we just say, mercy, please, like too much.
But there's always something until our last breath that will propel us.
Forward, and it's just this deep nudge from the soul.
And for whatever reason, I don't know if it's because I have worked so much with trauma disorders that I recognize something very unique and different about Seana's ability to survive and her resilience.
(09:39):
But it's kept me forward all this time.
Oh, that's exactly what, that's exactly why.
And I didn't even know at first what I was.
What compelled me to do this work.
(10:03):
But I, I realized along the way that what I was so interested in was that, that post traumatic growth or that Yes.
That survive, that will to survive.
Mm-hmm.
That that rebuilding, because I.
Because I, looking back now, I know that I have been through that and at the time I, I, it wasn't clear, but now it's clear and I just, I think that's the most fascinating thing that human beings do.
(10:42):
Absolutely.
I mean, when we are in that, what of course they call the dark night of the soul, when we're in that sort of phase of like, we're in this murky place and we don't have a guide and we dunno what's going on.
It's like there are some signposts out there.
Whether we open to them or not is part of our journey.
Sometimes we need to just completely hunker down and that's just how it goes.
(11:04):
Again, that's when I believe something much bigger is called upon to hold us in guide.
And, but the more that we can kind of, they say in longevity, um, research that your social connections are so vital for longevity.
And I believe the reason why is because they're constantly giving you new ideas, new ways to think about something new, um, avenues and just sort of.
(11:27):
Puts your whole being back into homeostasis because we all regulate each other, and so it's just, again, it's just this openness to understanding that sometimes, sometimes your best friend might be in so much grief that you just don't know at all how to help.
However, just the being with and just witnessing and just being there, even not saying a thing for days.
(11:53):
Is healing.
Someone doesn't feel so cast out and by themselves, and Seana could teach us all about what it's like.
Um, I asked her one time after the book was written, and after we've been doing these tours, I said, Seana, how did you wake up every single morning? And not just sort of give up and think, I'll never get out of this.
And she said, I woke up every day curious doc.
(12:16):
I loved thinking What's today gonna bring? How's it gonna be different? And I just thought.
How can we all just incorporate that, you know, just into our daily lives? Oh my gosh, that's incredible.
She's a very unique person, but we all have this ability to me and an ally to seek out allies, to open ourselves.
(12:43):
Again, everybody focuses on kind of like the self work, the preparation, the readiness.
To be healed or to be, um, to be helped.
And it's, it really is so important to just take that time if, um.
Whatever it is.
It doesn't need to be proper therapy.
It could be just that meditative walk that you really need to take.
(13:04):
Seana walks a half a marathon a day, and she calls it her mood walk therapy, but for her, it regulates her system.
Um, physiologically, of course, she gets even more endorphins, but the benefit also is because she does have a lot of internal distress with her schizophrenia and her voices.
She walks very late at night, away from everybody.
(13:25):
In the desert air and then just sort of lets it out.
And that's her way of being able to manage without medications.
She has taken the, wow, I know one of the things that has been really important, she, um, really has had a long family history of, you know, different, um, medical conditions and she was scared that medicines might make those physical conditions worth worse.
(13:49):
And as an athlete, that was.
An intolerable risk.
So she's found other creative ways to reset and rebalance, and it's so important that we know what that is for ourselves, you know? Hmm.
So knowing thyself, as they always say, is really, really important.
Try to know what works for you.
(14:10):
Yes.
And don't pass judgment or anything on it.
And that's work.
I mean, that's.
It takes work.
Absolutely.
It does.
I mean, for my daughter, it might be running 10 miles.
For me, it might be a box of donuts, you know, again, no judgment, but it, the reality is it's like if I need to curl up on a couch, in a book, in a blanket, and that's my way of kind of just cocooning and resetting.
(14:38):
That's what I need to do.
But if a friend then says, okay, it's been five days, let's go on a walk.
I might not feel like it, but if I shove myself in that direction, it's unbelievable the transformations that can happen.
And the reality is now the young people, I say young, you know, early twenties, my daughter's generation, they just, they call it something that I think is beautiful.
(15:03):
They say, you know, my social battery's running low.
I just need a little bit of charging, plug it in time and for themselves.
And they seem to be able to give themselves permission.
Whereas a lot of us are like, no, we have to this or we have to that.
And you know, Seana, for instance, she spends a good, good portion of the day now.
In her apartment when she was unhoused, she felt like she was on all the time, you know? Oh, she couldn't ever get away and ever turn off.
(15:30):
But she found a way to just sort of engage anyone in conversation that was curious.
And it just kind of passed the time and passed the day and it gave her a reset.
And sometimes if it was too much, she went down to the beach and just took a really long walk and that did it.
There's always somebody that's going through something.
(15:51):
I don't wanna say even worse or even harder, but honestly in the world there's so much tragedy and trauma sometimes that there will always be somebody to be able to relate.
There will always be somebody or somebody thing that you read about that makes you realize, you know what, I can have gratitude because.
(16:12):
My situation maybe could have been that.
Yeah.
And that those little tiny bits of gratitude start to then build on themselves and then it becomes like this wave of, I got this, I can get through this.
There, there must be like, uh, being unhoused there, there has to be a sense of.
(16:36):
Exposure and not having control over when you're exposed and, and you know, when you don't wanna be exposed.
Oh, absolutely.
And that must really have an effect.
Uh, absolutely.
Uh, I experienced that a little bit because I started.
(17:00):
You know, every time I would go to the Broadway show or something, I would always have little things in my purse that I could give out to people that I saw downtown that were unhoused.
And it was really interesting, like you're saying, some people just curled up under that blankie and they would maybe peek out a little, just enough to hear that I was bringing something.
Other people were just out there trying to engage and talk and find, look in everybody's eyes to see if they would be kind and helpful that day.
(17:26):
It's.
Such an unbelievably life altering experience, I would imagine, because I have not been unhoused to be at completely at the mercy of your surroundings.
But even then, again, I would direct us, you know, to another realm where it's like something, some energy is in this like little.
(17:46):
Protective shield, protective bubble, maybe forces guiding.
I wrote a, um, a chapter of the book on synchronicities because it was really unbelievable how many synchronicities happened around Seana with different people in the community.
And so when I asked Seana about these things, I said, what do you make of this? And she said, well, maybe some force or some energy realizes that somebody needs a reminder that we're all in this together in a bigger way.
(18:16):
And so maybe that's why when they think about me, I just happen to appear.
And I thought.
That's a beautiful way to look at it.
Like why, when you're most despairing, does somebody just say, oh, hey, do you want this? You know, whatever it is, Starbucks card.
I just found it.
And you're thinking, how did they just know that I was really struggling today for whatever.
(18:37):
But she just sort of always, she talks about, this is so self-evident.
And I think that we rationalize our way through life and we forget.
Hmm.
And to somebody who's really been at the mercy of all of that lack of control on some level, has found a way to just say, okay, let's roll with it.
(19:01):
Let's see what it opens me up to today.
Uh, that is so beautiful.
And it's hard.
It's hard to stay open.
Like you said, it's hard to just not wanna get upset or angry or feel like no one can relate or whatever it is.
And there are some really deep traumas that happen and it would be, it would feel insurmountable sometimes, but it's.
(19:30):
Somehow there is protective, loving energy that wants to help us in our journeys towards healing.
And I remember when I got my diagnosis, my ex-husband would be sleeping happily in the bed and I would be staring out at the ocean thinking, oh my gosh, this is my clock now.
(19:50):
I only have a year, so this is like one more 24 hour period.
And I was so.
Terrified of that.
Yet, if I just put my hand over onto my husband's back, like as he was breathing, I felt life.
I felt connection.
Even if he was happily sleeping, I felt you know what? I'm not alone.
Or I would get online and I would see people talking about different things and I just thought, okay, somebody somewhere is going through something even harder and it just, it's so restorative.
(20:22):
Yes.
That we're in this all together is, it's so key.
Mm.
It's so key.
Yes.
Yes.
And and you have to open your heart to believing that, because I think that's what Seana, I mean, we've been in this journey together for 10 years.
(20:46):
I mean.
We could have stopped after I got her some housing, like of course.
I couldn't really, because I was still in there helping her because the GoFundMe covered for a year and a half.
And then it's sort of been our journey to do this together.
But, um, it every day just brought some new awareness or awakening or when she would struggle with a new construct, like, how do I really trust, it's been so long since I felt like I could fully trust and it was like.
(21:18):
We healed each other, we helped each other, and then we just opened up to this big kind of like collective growth experience that I feel like everybody's doing in one shape or another.
One form or another.
We're all just trying to make sense of this existence.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's, I mean, if you think about it, I mean, that's why people go to church.
(21:44):
I mean, exactly.
That's why people gather and have yes rituals and they're just, it looks different throughout the.
Absolutely.
And I will say that Seana has, she does attend four online services a week.
She's very, my goodness, Christian in her background and upbringing, and I, I honestly believe that that faith, whatever it looks like, um.
(22:14):
Kept her going, it just kept her moving forward.
There was a purpose.
She used to find little scraps of paper to journal things that would remind her what day of the week it was and, um, what her challenge was that day that she could focus on to get her through.
And it, it's just so she kept believing.
She kept believing that there.
(22:36):
Was something there and that she could act in a dignified manner to, to approach whatever it was that was challenging her.
And like the basis of being a Christian is that Jesus suffered the most, right? Yes.
(22:57):
Like some, the, you know, whatever you're going through is.
Is not as bad or, you're comforted by what, what Jesus Jesus's suffering was for you.
Absolutely.
And that's supposed to be comforting, which is exactly what you were just saying.
(23:19):
Absolutely.
And, and I've often thought of Seana as a walking spirit.
I feel like she does sort of.
In a very strange way, bridge both worlds.
Like it's actually kind of uncanny sometimes.
I've been like, is that Jesus? You know, it's really interesting.
It's because the way she kind of just, people malign her because of her mental illness, because sometimes when she's in her state talking to some of her voices, it can be a little bit loud and scary to some people, but I always instruct them and say.
(23:47):
Hey, just say, Hey Seana, and just have an open, welcoming energy, and she'll snap right out of it.
But, um, she definitely mentions so many times about that suffering and struggle is, is not the thing that we should put our energy on.
What we should put our energy on is how we can keep.
Finding another reason to start the day fresh and try to learn something more about our journey because it will be over quickly.
(24:15):
I mean, we're not here on earth forever.
We, some of us wish we were sometimes, you know, but.
We have this time to learn these different lessons.
And if you believe some of the people who talk about the Godhead also wanting to learn through us that what we experience, the good and the bad, the polarity is something that is sort of part of our task to bring up to another realm.
(24:39):
So it's kind of.
Yeah, I've never heard that.
Wow.
Well, if you look at it that way, it's okay, we're supposed to do this.
This is part of the mission.
Like, wow, we can't just go up to have an mb, I mean, whatever people's belief system is and say, okay, we wanted to recreate that down here all the time.
It's like, well, but where's the learning? Where's the contrast? What did you learn from the dark that then opened you so much to the light? You know? Right.
(25:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The yin and the yang.
I mean the, you have to have both.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But when I was thinking about your whole thing of allying, I mean it's, I don't know how any of us would get through anything if we didn't believe somewhere somehow that there was someone or something that was trying to get in there with us and get it and hold us.
(25:38):
Move us to the next level.
Um, and again, for Seana, it might have been a couple that religiously sort of, routinely, um, would put a $20 bill by her cardboard, like every week there some, and, and one day she kind of opened her eye low.
She saw this couple and they were, they never.
Wanted to be known.
They just sort of did this nice little thing.
(26:00):
Um, the people who would, you know, give her a pizza at the back door at the end of the day, so she had some food or the manager that she would always, you know, like at the tennis shop, she would do all sorts of different things.
She'd collect the balls on the court, just out of the goodness of her heart.
But then they would do some little favor, like the tennis club would invite her to.
Um, a big event they were having so she could have some food.
(26:24):
But it's like, this is all examples of how we all constantly bring our energy to mingle with each other without consciously having to seek it out.
And then that keeps moving us forward.
And it's like breaking bread.
It's like the Jesus thing.
It's like you're always seeing how you can multiply an effect of energy and generosity.
(26:50):
Yes.
Yes.
Because you never know what effect you've had on someone.
Exactly, exactly that.
That is the essence of everything.
You just don't know, and it doesn't mean you have to walk around smiling all the time.
I mean, I'm a pretty smiley person, but it definitely came through years of dark.
(27:13):
I had a brother who died in a very tragic accident, and that was when I was 22.
Here.
I had been just happily doing my life and then that happened and I had to go in a little nest of my own for a little while.
But then as I read so many people having near death experiences, and I read so much about the meaning of life and Viktor Frankl and like the struggle and the suffering, but it all has meaning.
(27:40):
And I just thought, you know, that's what I'm gonna choose to hang on to.
That's gonna give me meaning no matter what the day brings.
And.
Yeah, maybe it was a smile that day that had a ripple effect on someone else, but it could also have been a tear.
I could have been sad that day and that brought out someone's feeling of compassion.
So you never know what it is, but just recognizing that we are all in this together is right, is the healing force.
(28:08):
And I will say, I know Seana and I will have an incredible friendship, till the end of time.
I mean, we just, we both are just.
Like, so understanding of the fact that it takes a village to get through this life and, it's such a privilege to be, to be on this planet.
(28:29):
No matter what we're going through, we have this chance to learn all this and yeah, some of the darkest nights.
You know, one of the things that healed me a lot when my brother had his accident was, um, working with a lot of kids in child development who had had really abusive situations because I was able to say, oh, yes, this horrible thing just happened to my family.
(28:52):
However, these kids didn't have maybe this, that I had, or there's always a point of comparison.
And then I was able to give them love and support and they also showed me through their, you know, tears or their laughter that.
We're all just getting through.
Yeah.
You know? Yeah.
(29:12):
And even if the point, the point is just trying to, or exploring what is the point with others.
Exactly.
That's enough.
That is enough.
It's always enough.
It's always enough.
Yeah.
And for whatever reason, like that whole catalyst thing, I do believe that, um.
(29:33):
You know, if you think about a catalyst and a chemical reaction, something that speeds up a process.
So it's like if someone's a catalyst for you to all of a sudden be more enraged because something made you angry and somebody fueled that, or to be more, um, forgiving or compassionate or, or sad so that you can get through your grief process a little bit deeper.
(29:55):
Mm-hmm.
You know, short or whatever.
Um, it's, we all have this ability to have this effect on each other.
And so, I, my whole thing is take a chance on unlikely situations that involve a leap of faith with people.
Um, my daughter gets embarrassed sometimes 'cause I am that type that if somebody looks sad somewhere, I just sort of send them a little heart signal, like.
(30:19):
You're not alone, you know, and maybe that person wants say, okay, well F off.
I didn't need that.
It Well, but then that still brought their, whatever it was, to the four that they needed to Yeah.
To deal with, you know? Yes.
So, um, we just, just be, and just do what you need to do.
But remember in your moments of like most despairing to take a little cue from Seana that she always just kind of had an eye open, like, huh.
(30:49):
An attitude of curiosity and a little bit of an attitude of, all right, if this is my lot, let's see where it goes.
Can really shift everything.
Yes, yes.
I, I love that and I love the catalyst thing, like even if it's uncomfortable.
(31:15):
Yes.
It is still it still worth something for you? Absolutely.
It's like a firework.
You light it off and at first it makes a big bang and it's scary.
And a flame goes through the whatever, the wick or whatever, and then all of a sudden it's like, boom.
(31:37):
Look at all that beauty.
Look at all that light.
Look at all that color, you know? Yeah.
Yes.
Oh my God.
That's just, that's really profound actually.
Wow.
Being human is so complex and profound and can feel so many different levels of isolation or connection, but it, I, I think.
(32:07):
If there's something that somebody needs to hear, that there's always hope, have faith things Seana said, she always knew, always knew.
She held this for eight years, sleeping on cardboard.
She always knew that one day things were gonna change.
I mean how, but she just had this super deep knowing and so it's, it's like, did that come from Hope? Was it, where was that? Where, where did that little kernel come from? But to me, you know, I do believe in these unseen forces that guide and hold, and there was that sliver of something in her heart that went.
(32:46):
It's gonna get better.
So until it does, I'm going to act as if and then keep moving along.
You know, she would walk four miles to her cold freezing shower without a towel because she thought, okay, I'll get up, I'll greet the day, I'll go do this.
She had good hygiene.
She didn't let herself completely resonate with the fact that, you know, I do sleep on cardboard at night outside.
(33:12):
Mm-hmm.
It was like her inner spark of.
Well, it's gonna get better, so I better be ready.
Yeah, really manifested.
We are all doing our best.
We are human.
We're doing our best to try to be good stewards of that and be humanitarians and fight for social justice and human rights and dignity.
(33:37):
All of that is so important.
Like in your case, like you're giving voice and you're trying to spread certain currents of understanding.
And you may think, okay, I am in a basement doing a podcast with the head, you know, and I'm just sort of hunkering down from the news.
But I see it as, oh my gosh, look at the reach now look at what you're doing with that to catalyze.
(34:03):
The process, Yeah.
Oh my God, I love, oh, thank you for saying that.
Uh, I love that.
I love that, that, that's very helpful.
You know, we're just, we're all doing our best to try to figure out what way to, like somehow alchemize.
(34:28):
All of this energy and all of these feelings and all of this difficulty being human confusion.
Mm-hmm.
Complexity and bring it out in our own little way that furthers the whole species along.
And that's.
I look at it all like that.
I look at Seana, I've had really difficult moments with her in terms of, not with her per se, but when I've been alongside her, like when we were in Europe and we were at certain, we were at the pride parades, I was supporting her talking about intersex.
(35:02):
Um, but she would get so much hate sometimes.
And it was.
She just looked at me and said, you know what, doc? It's just all part of it.
Like she has this attitude of like, I'm not gonna let anything stick.
It's just moving through.
Right? And then I just look at her and I go, okay, so she can act like that.
(35:22):
Then I don't have to get all ruffled and try to defend her, whatever.
I can just let her know I am here in solidarity, I'm here.
I'm, maybe I'm 10 steps behind.
Maybe I'm 10 steps forward, but I'm here.
And, um.
And then we just kind of keep learning and then we come home, we get on podcasts, we write articles or, and it's like then the whole collective moves forward.
(35:45):
And so that's why this kind of work that you do is so important because it moves it forward in whatever way it needs to, through everyone's different filters, and then it just keeps.
Metabolizing the way that it needs to, you know? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(36:11):
Just, I know exactly what you're saying.
I, there's always, I don't like, I don't like saying this, but there's always gonna be that like.
Uh, noise that like rough noise and yeah, re responding to it is not, it's not the best way to u to utilize, even though I want to, you know, it's not the best way to utilize my.
(36:56):
Self and, but if it felt that day like it was, if you felt you needed to just do a rah, you know, then that's important too, because for somebody, they needed to feel resonant with that energy, you know? Yes.
So I guess the whole thing is just non.
Judgment really.
I, we were in, um, Paris in this beautiful gallery Lafayette, and it's this huge beautiful domed upscale shopping mall.
(37:24):
And I sat with Seana and it was a particularly stressful day for her because there had been a lot of energy and people and judging.
And, um, I sat down and her voices were starting to get a little intense, and I had become part of her system by then.
So she was then arguing.
With me inside of her head, but outside of her head.
(37:45):
And so I was like, doc Seana, can you tell me what's going on? And she was like, doc, doc don't press.
And I just looked at her human to human deep in her eyes and I said, it must be so hard to like tune out all that noise all the time.
This is why I'm telling you this.
'cause you mentioned that with noise.
And she, I said, it must just be so hard to always have to fight against these messages that you know are not true, but they're coming from somewhere and, um, how do you do it? And she just said, Ugh, thank you so much for recognizing that, that it is so stressful that we all have all this noise that we're always trying to steer like the course and try to ignore it.
(38:26):
And she said, I just do my best doc.
And I said, well, I'm here with you, Shana, you know, and.
This is kind of an example, a metaphor for the collective.
It's like, how do we tune out all this noise and Yes, keep forging forward, yes.
So.
I figured if she can do it, when it's coming up her, from her against her, when the calls are coming from inside the house, it's like, yeah, exactly.
(38:54):
Exactly.
Yeah.
You feel like, you know what? Just pull on something.
Pull on something to just keep going.
But yeah, I'm grateful that you do what you do because thank you so much.
It helps a lot of people to feel.
Yeah.
Just that someone gets them, they're with them.
(39:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you for having me.
I can't wait to read the book and I'm excited When, so is it, tell me, tell us the, the details.
(39:36):
Okay, so it's called I Seana.
The story of a homeless intersex woman who inspired a community.
It's on Amazon.
Barnes and Noble.
You can get it good reads different places.
Uh, there, uh.
The main goal.
She got a million views on TikTok, which of course I am completely non-social media savvy, but my daughter's like, wow, mom.
(40:00):
That's pretty big deal.
Yeah.
So, but it, the whole, and, and there are a lot of haters, right? But because they don't understand Seana and how she's.
So different and whatever.
But my point is I'm always trying to find ways to bring people to her story of resilience and survival to how she dug so deep all the time, no matter what.
(40:22):
And um, even in her awareness that she would love a personal relationship, but it's probably not in the cards for her.
The way she imagines, I mean, she doesn't take meds.
She's got a pretty extreme.
Mental illness that she deals with.
However, she says, you know what, doc, maybe that's not my path.
Uh, I'll just, put a lover's lock up in Paris pretending that one day I'll have, you know, and I'm just like, I just support all of this thinking, you know what, we can all learn from this.
(40:50):
We can all learn from the times that we don't feel in partnership or we don't feel understood, or we feel isolated from everyone.
We can still find a way to join everyone else, you know? Mm-hmm.
So.
Along with being able to read all about it in the book, which is my hope because we poured our souls into that.
I really hope somebody could take a passage or a sentence out of there and really have it speak to them.
(41:14):
I would love that 342 pages of a journey and how we helped each other.
But also we will definitely be doing much more in the future.
Um, trying to educate, trying to take it to the schools, bring it into a curricula, different things to impact young people and hopefully get it to something bigger, streaming something because her message is pretty powerful.
(41:41):
Yeah, and I think it puts a lot of things in perspective, so yeah.
But please read the book.
I would be surprised.
Oh, I'll, because I think every single person would find their own way through something and I bring in the near death experiencers and I bring in different things that really kind of, talk about how we're never alone and to use that in our daily lives.
(42:04):
Yeah, which you do.
I can see that.
I love it.
I'm so excited to read the book.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for doing this and for being here.
Thanks for the opportunity and I'm just, I'm thrilled to just see what you're gonna do next and just all of this energy propagating forward.
(42:29):
Thank you.
And let's keep in touch.
Absolutely.
That would be great.
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay, great.
Okay, thanks.
Bye.
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