June 1, 2025 • 27 mins
In this powerful and deeply personal episode, Lucinda Koza is joined by Dr. Lisa De La Rue—licensed psychologist, trauma specialist, and Chief Education and Research Officer at Urban Alchemy—for a candid conversation about parenting through trauma, the stigma surrounding formerly incarcerated mothers, and how healing becomes possible when we give ourselves permission to stumble.
Together, they explore the realities of reparenting yourself while raising children, the hidden mental health crisis in the fourth trimester, and the need to normalize delayed postpartum anxiety and depression. Dr. De La Rue also shares how Urban Alchemy is redefining community care—employing people with lived experience to lead the work of transformation in their own neighborhoods.
Whether you’re a parent, a survivor, or simply someone trying to understand the invisible barriers others face, this episode will move you, ground you, and remind you of the radical power of compassion.
🔑 Topics Covered:
- Reparenting while parenting: breaking generational cycles
- Trauma, addiction, and the incarceration pipeline
- The long shadow of postpartum anxiety
- Fatherhood and the subtle stigma against involved dads
- How Urban Alchemy is led by people with lived experience
- Creating systems rooted in dignity, not judgment
- What post-traumatic growth really looks like
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And welcome to how I Ally.
I am Lucinda Koza, and I am joined today by a very accomplished.
Very brilliant, very impressive guest, and I would like her to introduce herself and give a bit of a bio backstory, if you don't mind.
(00:27):
Yes.
Thank you for having me.
My name is Dr.
Lisa De La Rue.
I.
I'm a licensed psychologist in California and serve as the Chief Education and Research Officer for a nonprofit called Urban Alchemy.
I also have an affiliation with the University of San Francisco, and I have a long history of working in the intersection of trauma addiction.
(00:53):
And folks who are impacted by the carceral system or incarceration, and also intertwined with that.
I've done a lot of work around perinatal and postnatal mental health, and so I'm excited to be here and have a conversation with you.
Awesome.
I am so excited that you're here.
(01:15):
I'm curious, of course, right off the bat.
Do you find mothers? Do you find a lot of women who may be struggling in that fourth trimester? Do you find that they may be entering that sort of cycle that you mentioned of self-medication or there's a unresolved trauma, there's self-medication, then there's a run in with the incarceration.
(01:55):
I'm saying this wrong, but that incarceration system.
Yeah.
You will say it right? So maybe you should take over that.
No, it's all kind of the systems, the broader systems kind of people call 'em interchangeably.
Carceral system, contact with the incarceration system tend to avoid justice system.
(02:17):
'cause not always justice within that system, but I think broadly there's been a lot of.
Of lack of attention and care given to folks either in the four trimester or beyond who are parenting and who are involved or have contact.
So we look at one of the most underserved group of folks that are incarcerated are women, and especially women who have children.
(02:44):
We don't have a system that's set up to allow them.
To have strong and positive relationships as much with their children.
We've put a lot of barriers in place, and even when we think about kind of male caregivers or fathers, their access to be able to maintain relationships with children is really challenging.
(03:05):
And so when we think about the trauma and then the mental health outcomes associated with that.
There is a lack of attention to how do we support women and not look at them solely as maybe the reason why they're incarcerated, but also the long history of what brought them there.
We look at particularly women.
(03:27):
The disproportionate rate of trauma, depending on what study you're looking at, it's 80 to 90% of women who are incarcerated have a significant history of trauma, be that kind of childhood abuse, neglect, community violence, assaults, the list goes on and on.
And then we know very much the intersection with addiction, which is often a way to cope with untreated kind of mental health or trauma symptoms.
(03:54):
And then that can create.
A challenging cycle where folks are using to ease pain, but then needing to become in precarious situations that put them at risk for either more trauma or legal contact.
And that's how we often see the cycle develop.
And so when we especially think about folks who are pregnant, birthing, and then becoming parents, so much of that can trigger.
(04:23):
Your own kind of unresolved childhood trauma and a lot of the things that we didn't realize were just bubbling under the surface will come up.
One, be just the magnitude of bringing life right into the world and carrying that and then throwing all the hormone mix, all of the changes in your body.
(04:44):
And then, we see.
Folks who are struggling will be, especially at risk like before birth, which we often ignore.
Most folks are more often familiar with postpartum depression, anxiety, but a lot of those symptoms arise before birth even happens, and we.
Don't give enough attention or care to that.
(05:06):
And then when we think about trauma, you start to think about all the ways, even subconsciously, the way you were parented, the things that you got as a child, or the things that maybe you didn't get as a child.
And then now you have this.
Awesome and humbling experience to care for another little human being.
Sleep deprived, your hormones a mess, your mental health kind of needing support, and you're trying to figure out how to now parent.
(05:35):
And if you miss some of those things as a child, it becomes really hard to access them.
And so that's where we see the trauma really exasperates under all of that perfect storm of conditions.
That makes perfect sense.
And you if you didn't get the things that you want to give your child, it's like your.
(06:03):
Reparenting yourself while parenting your child.
And if you stumble, make mistakes or you don't live up to the expectations you're setting for yourself, it's like an enormous burden or.
(06:25):
It's a huge bar to live up to.
And if you didn't have a mother, then mothering yourself while mothering a child.
It's just, and if you don't have support or guidance, it's.
(06:46):
It can be soul crushing at times.
Yeah, yeah.
And I appreciate you pointing out kind of the stumbling, right? Because parenting never plans out the way you hope, and there's always mistakes and we really.
Talk about are you being good enough, showing up enough, not falling into this illusion of like perfect parenting, but that idea of stumbling, especially for some of the folks that kind of we support and work with, I.
(07:20):
When you're coming out of maybe contact with partial system, maybe you were incarcerated yourself, you already have that stigma, that label around you.
And this idea that you messed up or this stereotypes around the type of person or mother you are.
And then, so when you do stumble, which is natural part of parenting, the shame is so much more magnified because you feel like you're under a.
(07:45):
Higher microscope or a more intense focus of you really have to do this really so that people don't continue to judge you as a mother.
It's almost this double bind that you find yourself in.
Totally.
And almost like fear, like a total fear.
(08:06):
Like someone's going to come at any minute and.
Take away your child and be like, you're awful.
I declare you bad mother, and I'm taking your child.
That's like the fear that all mothers have.
(08:26):
I can't speak for all mothers, but.
Yeah.
And if you've already been incarcerated, God, it's, I just feel that like I, in the pit of my stomach, just that.
Constant judgment Or fear of being judged.
(08:50):
Yeah.
While you're also simultaneously trying to process your own experiences, your own trauma and.
As a country, we don't do a great job at providing kind of comprehensive mental health care.
It's really hard to access high quality mental health care.
So when you have folks who are already facing so many systematic barriers and then needing really high quality support to process what they've experienced, to have that experience of traumatic growth, right? Because we know folks can have a different chapter in their life.
(09:26):
But straddling that and also parenting and a combination of re-parenting can sometimes feel very overwhelming for folks in isolating.
And we don't do a good enough job enough, no matter the person uplifting and acknowledging the struggles of parenting and the difficulty, and allowing folks the grace to make mistakes and not.
(09:55):
Come with judgment or ideas on what they should have done differently.
And so when you have folks who are also facing additional stigmas becomes a real challenge.
And I think even for dads, as a society we have historically disenfranchised men and dads in parenting a little bit.
(10:18):
Yes.
And so this assumption that they can't or they shouldn't, or.
That their involvement isn't as important in some spaces, hasn't been fully recognized and supported.
And I think we definitely see that, jails, prisons, all of those spaces aren't conducive to children, families, they're not, they have not been set up.
(10:40):
There's ways you could do it better for sure, but they have not been set up to facilitate.
The strengthening of family bonds.
And so especially when you feel, when you see men who have been incarcerated, they're also not supported in being able to really strengthen family bonds.
And of course folks figure out how to do it.
(11:02):
The intuition of prisons and jails and all of that.
Folks figure out how to build those bonds.
But as a society, we are just now I think, entering into a realization that.
Both men, women, whatever parents are present for the children, need to really be empowered to be a part of the entire child rearing process.
(11:24):
And I think for men, there's been a lack of welcoming really in some spaces.
If we think about the dynamics at schools or at daycares or other childcare systems, they're not always thinking.
The entire family unit first there is, has been a historical tendency to overly on the mother or the male, the female identified caregiver, whoever that may be, and not being as inclusive for the entire parenting unit.
(11:56):
My there's almost in some.
Areas, like in my personal situation, there's like an overcompensation that sort of has the same effect.
Like my my husband takes our son to swim lessons and he is only dad.
(12:17):
Like eye roll and of course he just always gets a, oh my gosh, you're a dad here with your son.
And it's a, that's also alienating.
(12:38):
Yeah.
And then my mother is, will just fawn over oh, you're so involved.
That's so great.
That's so not what I had.
And it's some, it's, it is that.
(13:03):
It has somehow It is just as alienating.
Yeah.
It's like highlighting the, the whatever the, yeah.
This is not the norm.
Or it's so interesting that you're in this space or just highlighting the otherness of it.
(13:26):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's like saying oh, is daddy babysitting? Yeah.
It's don't babysit my own child.
Thank you.
Oh man.
So your so is it a nonprofit? Yeah, urban Alchemy is a nonprofit and we are located in numerous cities, San Francisco, la, Portland, Austin, Birmingham right now.
(13:53):
And what we do is really focus on building up safe communities, safe housing.
And that looks different in a lot of different spaces.
So for some kind of areas we're in, we're really focused on kind of community outreach, building relationships with folks, especially folks who are experiencing homelessness.
And that can include the.
(14:15):
Day to day of helping sweep or clean up.
But it's mostly about building relationships.
And so our folks, our practitioners who we call our employees work in the same area as generally.
And so they really get to build relationships with the folks around them.
The folks who are unhoused and the folks who are on their daily commute are going to school.
(14:38):
And it's really about coming back to that time where.
We know who was part of our neighbors, our neighborhoods, who was in our community.
We know their name, building relationships and building support, and then providing resources.
When folks kind of wanna access addiction or mental health treatment, how can we support them in navigating those services? We also operate, what are traditionally thought of as like homeless shelters, but we really see them as holistic and wellness centers.
(15:05):
So shelters for folks who are experiencing homelessness, of course, but moving beyond just providing, three meals in a cot and really providing kind of therapeutic services, addiction treatment.
'cause that's another space where.
The experiences of trauma right, are so rampant.
And so providing comprehensive mental health care as best we can and building up that addiction treatment, harm reduction treatment on site.
(15:31):
And then we also have programs.
They're called different things in different cities.
Hearts Circle, love, but those are kind of crisis response, alternative to police responding.
And that allows us, if somebody's in a crisis 9 1 1 calls are diverted to our folks and we respond either with kind of mental health care, crisis coordinating kind of deescalation techniques, whatever's needed in our there to provide a non-law enforcement response to folks who are experiencing a crisis.
(16:04):
And supporting them and deescalating coming down and then seeing, okay, what needs, where do they need to go? Sometimes it's hospitalization, sometimes it's connecting to resources.
Whatever that person needs.
And so that's our mission.
And our workforce is predominantly made up of folks who have what we call live expertise.
(16:24):
And those are folks who have been formerly incarcerated.
Some of them are former long-term offenders, but the crux of it folks have experienced a lot of trauma and had that post-traumatic growth who have experienced homelessness, addiction, community violence, all of the above, and have.
Learned from that experience and had the unique skillset to support other folks who might be in similar situations.
(16:49):
So that idea of these are folks who have really embraced post-traumatic growth and they are the experts that can then help other people that are on that journey.
That is brilliant.
.4280975I think in many ways your interview made me realize what my work is really about. 153 00:17:10,676.4280975 --> 00:17:10,796.4280975 I. 154 00:17:11,926.4280975 --> 00:17:30,66.4280975 I gave birth to twins three months early, and it was really scary and really traumatic and I was like a, and it, so they were in the NICU for three months and I was. 155 00:17:30,531.4280975 --> 00:17:42,531.4280975 Just like this, walking like gutted ghost, like holding my guts. 156 00:17:43,531.4280975 --> 00:17:51,206.4280975 And I, and then one day I realized like I have to be their mother. 157 00:17:51,986.4280975 --> 00:17:52,196.4280975 Yeah. 158 00:17:53,196.4280975 --> 00:17:55,896.4280975 Like I have to be their mother. 159 00:17:56,436.4280975 --> 00:17:56,856.4280975 Yeah. 160 00:17:56,916.4280975 --> 00:18:08,296.4280975 When you're still, it don't, yeah, like I can't be this, I have to and it can't be fake. 161 00:18:08,356.4280975 --> 00:18:10,66.4280975 Like it can't be put on. 162 00:18:10,66.4280975 --> 00:18:10,126.4280975 Yeah. 163 00:18:10,756.4280975 --> 00:18:14,696.4280975 Like I have to be Lucinda. 164 00:18:16,1.4280975 --> 00:18:16,991.4280975 Their mother. 165 00:18:17,771.4280975 --> 00:18:18,221.4280975 Yeah. 166 00:18:19,221.4280975 --> 00:18:37,591.4280975 And it was, that, that growth was, it was, the most shocking, period of growth that I've ever experienced. 167 00:18:37,591.4280975 --> 00:18:48,651.4280975 And and it all just seemed to, it was like I just realized I had to do it and then it just, and like I, it just happened. 168 00:18:49,71.4280975 --> 00:18:49,251.4280975 Yeah. 169 00:18:49,311.4280975 --> 00:18:53,21.4280975 And that's what I'm interested in is. 170 00:18:54,131.4280975 --> 00:18:56,831.4280975 People who have done that. 171 00:18:57,831.4280975 --> 00:18:58,371.4280975 Yeah. 172 00:18:59,691.4280975 --> 00:19:11,671.4280975 I think so much too of what you're saying is when you have to show up in mother, especially in those early days and under those circumstances, so much of it is that fight or flight, sometimes freeze response. 173 00:19:11,671.4280975 --> 00:19:14,506.4280975 You're just on autopilot, you're trying to get through it and you're really not. 174 00:19:15,991.4280975 --> 00:19:31,951.4280975 Having the time, the space, anything to process, like the trauma your body went through, the scariness of kind of the premature and all of those months in a hospital and what that does for you and for your family. 175 00:19:32,611.4280975 --> 00:19:35,131.4280975 And so I think there's a lot of times where. 176 00:19:36,241.4280975 --> 00:19:39,661.4280975 That four trimester, whatever can extend years later. 177 00:19:39,721.4280975 --> 00:19:58,36.4280975 It's not uncommon for mothers to experience significant anxiety two, three, four years after giving birth, but that sometimes is still related to that postpartum anxiety, depression, or other mental health concerns because you're in the thick of it and you're just. 178 00:19:58,106.4280975 --> 00:20:05,6.4280975 Kind of trying to survive the day to day that you don't have time to process kind of everything that you've experienced. 179 00:20:05,6.4280975 --> 00:20:20,246.4280975 And then once you get a moment to metaphorically breathe and it's not as intense, it's intense in a different way, right? But you have a different level of space that then all of those traumas, all of those experiences then bubble up. 180 00:20:20,936.4280975 --> 00:20:24,566.4280975 And so we don't fully appreciate or give folks credit that. 181 00:20:25,591.4280975 --> 00:20:28,231.4280975 There can be a delayed onset for a lot of people. 182 00:20:29,401.4280975 --> 00:20:32,641.4280975 Yeah, that's that. 183 00:20:33,121.4280975 --> 00:20:35,161.4280975 Like years. 184 00:20:35,311.4280975 --> 00:20:35,731.4280975 Yeah. 185 00:20:35,836.4280975 --> 00:20:38,146.4280975 That's crazy. 186 00:20:39,496.4280975 --> 00:20:39,976.4280975 Yeah. 187 00:20:39,976.4280975 --> 00:20:42,466.4280975 People don't seem to. 188 00:20:43,466.4280975 --> 00:20:44,486.4280975 Know that. 189 00:20:45,486.4280975 --> 00:20:45,846.4280975 Yeah. 190 00:20:45,846.4280975 --> 00:20:45,847.4280975 Yeah. 191 00:20:46,926.4280975 --> 00:20:58,941.4280975 So I feel like I feel like I'm not sure I would get much support if, a couple years down the road everything came out. 192 00:21:00,306.4280975 --> 00:21:00,666.4280975 Yeah. 193 00:21:00,746.4280975 --> 00:21:05,876.4280975 No, people wouldn't give you the same grace if it was like three or four months. 194 00:21:05,876.4280975 --> 00:21:15,746.4280975 Even then, people aren't, as a society, we do need to do better, but there's this idea that postpartum depression is like right after you get birth, for example. 195 00:21:16,436.4280975 --> 00:21:24,56.4280975 But you're not given the same credence when it comes up two to three years later, which is not uncommon. 196 00:21:25,56.4280975 --> 00:21:25,956.4280975 Yeah. 197 00:21:26,826.4280975 --> 00:21:27,276.4280975 Yeah. 198 00:21:27,376.4280975 --> 00:21:32,656.4280975 There's just an enormous lack of education. 199 00:21:33,646.4280975 --> 00:21:33,946.4280975 Yeah. 200 00:21:34,576.4280975 --> 00:21:35,201.4280975 A lack of care. 201 00:21:35,821.4280975 --> 00:21:36,681.4280975 Amy Schumer. 202 00:21:37,591.4280975 --> 00:21:41,881.4280975 Like a good book that I read I think shortly after I gave birth. 203 00:21:41,881.4280975 --> 00:21:44,11.4280975 But she was talking about birthing stories. 204 00:21:44,11.4280975 --> 00:21:59,131.4280975 It's an edited book and collected a bunch of birthing stories from folks and just this acknowledgement that birth can go very relatively smooth for folks and it can be very scary and very traumatic for many folks. 205 00:21:59,131.4280975 --> 00:22:04,621.4280975 And our maternal health rate and death rate is atrocious in this country. 206 00:22:05,221.4280975 --> 00:22:06,181.4280975 And. 207 00:22:06,601.4280975 --> 00:22:21,681.4280975 Just uplifting kind of those stories to bring out open and honest conversations about like how messy, chaotic, and like wicked birthing can be. 208 00:22:22,131.4280975 --> 00:22:29,391.4280975 And it can also be beautiful, right? But all of those stories along that spectrum need to be heard and valued and uplifted. 209 00:22:30,531.4280975 --> 00:22:33,531.4280975 Yes, absolutely. 210 00:22:34,326.4280975 --> 00:22:35,526.4280975 Absolutely. 211 00:22:36,526.4280975 --> 00:22:52,826.4280975 Yes, shouted from the rooftops because every, turn to your left, turn to your right, there's someone who's given birth and maybe had. 212 00:22:53,861.4280975 --> 00:23:00,651.4280975 A horribly traumatic experience and you don't even know, and it's not talked about. 213 00:23:00,901.4280975 --> 00:23:13,586.4280975 There's this, I remember feeling like, why didn't my mother warn me? Like, why didn't she tell me this shit was like, pregnancy can be awful. 214 00:23:14,536.4280975 --> 00:23:14,826.4280975 Yeah. 215 00:23:15,831.4280975 --> 00:23:21,231.4280975 Like, why didn't she warn me about I don't know any of this. 216 00:23:21,531.4280975 --> 00:23:27,541.4280975 The, it's, I know it's a generational thing for sure, and I'm from the south. 217 00:23:27,591.4280975 --> 00:23:36,771.4280975 That just doesn't help to, to not, yeah, to not tell your daughter that shit is hard. 218 00:23:37,521.4280975 --> 00:23:37,941.4280975 Yeah. 219 00:23:38,41.4280975 --> 00:23:45,851.4280975 As a society we don't do it, even as maybe your girlfriends or friends I think need to tell each other a little bit more. 220 00:23:45,851.4280975 --> 00:23:51,311.4280975 Not to scare folks, but like after birth is chaotic and. 221 00:23:52,311.4280975 --> 00:23:53,571.4280975 Shitty sometimes. 222 00:23:55,71.4280975 --> 00:23:56,1.4280975 Yeah. 223 00:23:56,1.4280975 --> 00:24:00,321.4280975 The healing journey is long and challenging. 224 00:24:01,321.4280975 --> 00:24:02,131.4280975 Yeah. 225 00:24:03,131.4280975 --> 00:24:03,731.4280975 Yeah. 226 00:24:03,876.4280975 --> 00:24:09,986.4280975 And that doesn't mean anything about like how much you love your baby. 227 00:24:10,526.4280975 --> 00:24:11,366.4280975 Not at all. 228 00:24:11,426.4280975 --> 00:24:11,816.4280975 Yeah. 229 00:24:12,566.4280975 --> 00:24:22,436.4280975 Yeah, and it's not a reflection on you or your character or your strength, it's just the magnitude of bringing life. 230 00:24:23,606.4280975 --> 00:24:24,26.4280975 Yeah. 231 00:24:24,526.4280975 --> 00:24:45,556.4280975 The more we talk about folks experiences and think especially like trauma, we can help to eliminate some of that shame, some of that kind of that isolation and really help folks, like when we've experienced traumatic things, it's never gonna be something that goes away, but. 232 00:24:46,156.4280975 --> 00:24:52,246.4280975 We try to make it a chapter in our story, just not the current chapter as much. 233 00:24:52,366.4280975 --> 00:24:52,936.4280975 Yeah. 234 00:24:54,76.4280975 --> 00:24:56,266.4280975 And shame. 235 00:24:57,266.4280975 --> 00:25:06,696.4280975 I feel like shame is the most insidious thing that you can feel. 236 00:25:07,826.4280975 --> 00:25:17,51.4280975 And I think people do enough blaming and shaming of themselves that you don't need to pile it on from other places as well. 237 00:25:17,51.4280975 --> 00:25:17,111.4280975 I. 238 00:25:18,111.4280975 --> 00:25:18,401.4280975 Yeah. 239 00:25:18,686.4280975 --> 00:25:19,136.4280975 Yeah. 240 00:25:20,136.4280975 --> 00:25:23,286.4280975 The stigma, all of those pieces Yeah. 241 00:25:23,346.4280975 --> 00:25:34,386.4280975 That just make people unwilling to share, unwilling to seek help because they're, they might be judged or criticized. 242 00:25:35,576.4280975 --> 00:25:37,706.4280975 It keeps you isolated. 243 00:25:38,516.4280975 --> 00:25:44,166.4280975 It keeps you from reaching out, it keeps you silent. 244 00:25:44,676.4280975 --> 00:25:48,86.4280975 And that's just, it doesn't have to be that way. 245 00:25:49,86.4280975 --> 00:25:49,376.4280975 Yeah. 246 00:25:50,376.4280975 --> 00:25:55,696.4280975 I, so I think it's so remarkable that. 247 00:25:56,761.4280975 --> 00:26:05,246.4280975 So much of the workforce is people who have lived experience. 248 00:26:05,746.4280975 --> 00:26:19,766.4280975 That's just, it should always be that way and you, and for you to have recognized that you weren't equipped to, to help some of those people. 249 00:26:20,826.4280975 --> 00:26:25,336.4280975 That takes a lot of awareness and. 250 00:26:26,336.4280975 --> 00:26:29,246.4280975 Not everyone has that awareness. 251 00:26:30,746.4280975 --> 00:26:42,266.4280975 I think broadly we just I have this idea that people are capable of change and that kind of covers a gamut of things like folks who have done things that. 252 00:26:42,776.4280975 --> 00:26:46,226.4280975 Maybe aren't so great, but they have the capacity for change. 253 00:26:46,316.4280975 --> 00:27:03,86.4280975 And just like folks who have experienced really difficult events or experiences or had traumatic childhoods or traumatic persons themselves and are struggling also have the capacity to change right in that way and to heal. 254 00:27:03,266.4280975 --> 00:27:10,226.4280975 So the idea that we can transform and we can overcome, I think is inherent in. 255 00:27:11,591.4280975 --> 00:27:12,761.4280975 Most human nature. 256 00:27:12,821.4280975 --> 00:27:24,281.4280975 And so just supporting that and uplifting that and giving big folks the space and the opportunity to actually realize that change, I think is what we as a society need to do better at. 257 00:27:25,271.4280975 --> 00:27:26,51.4280975 Yes. 258 00:27:26,741.4280975 --> 00:27:28,726.4280975 Yeah, I totally agree. 259 00:27:29,726.4280975 --> 00:27:34,916.4280975 Thank you so much for being here. 260 00:27:36,116.4280975 --> 00:27:38,906.4280975 It's been really awesome. 261 00:27:39,656.4280975 --> 00:27:40,46.4280975 Thank you. 262 00:27:40,286.4280975 --> 00:27:41,516.4280975 I appreciate you having me. 263 00:27:41,516.4280975 --> 00:27:43,286.4280975 It was nice speaking with you today.
And welcome to how I Ally.
I am Lucinda Koza, and I am joined today by a very accomplished.
Very brilliant, very impressive guest, and I would like her to introduce herself and give a bit of a bio backstory, if you don't mind.
(00:27):
Yes.
Thank you for having me.
My name is Dr.
Lisa De La Rue.
I.
I'm a licensed psychologist in California and serve as the Chief Education and Research Officer for a nonprofit called Urban Alchemy.
I also have an affiliation with the University of San Francisco, and I have a long history of working in the intersection of trauma addiction.
(00:53):
And folks who are impacted by the carceral system or incarceration, and also intertwined with that.
I've done a lot of work around perinatal and postnatal mental health, and so I'm excited to be here and have a conversation with you.
Awesome.
I am so excited that you're here.
(01:15):
I'm curious, of course, right off the bat.
Do you find mothers? Do you find a lot of women who may be struggling in that fourth trimester? Do you find that they may be entering that sort of cycle that you mentioned of self-medication or there's a unresolved trauma, there's self-medication, then there's a run in with the incarceration.
(01:55):
I'm saying this wrong, but that incarceration system.
Yeah.
You will say it right? So maybe you should take over that.
No, it's all kind of the systems, the broader systems kind of people call 'em interchangeably.
Carceral system, contact with the incarceration system tend to avoid justice system.
(02:17):
'cause not always justice within that system, but I think broadly there's been a lot of.
Of lack of attention and care given to folks either in the four trimester or beyond who are parenting and who are involved or have contact.
So we look at one of the most underserved group of folks that are incarcerated are women, and especially women who have children.
(02:44):
We don't have a system that's set up to allow them.
To have strong and positive relationships as much with their children.
We've put a lot of barriers in place, and even when we think about kind of male caregivers or fathers, their access to be able to maintain relationships with children is really challenging.
(03:05):
And so when we think about the trauma and then the mental health outcomes associated with that.
There is a lack of attention to how do we support women and not look at them solely as maybe the reason why they're incarcerated, but also the long history of what brought them there.
We look at particularly women.
(03:27):
The disproportionate rate of trauma, depending on what study you're looking at, it's 80 to 90% of women who are incarcerated have a significant history of trauma, be that kind of childhood abuse, neglect, community violence, assaults, the list goes on and on.
And then we know very much the intersection with addiction, which is often a way to cope with untreated kind of mental health or trauma symptoms.
(03:54):
And then that can create.
A challenging cycle where folks are using to ease pain, but then needing to become in precarious situations that put them at risk for either more trauma or legal contact.
And that's how we often see the cycle develop.
And so when we especially think about folks who are pregnant, birthing, and then becoming parents, so much of that can trigger.
(04:23):
Your own kind of unresolved childhood trauma and a lot of the things that we didn't realize were just bubbling under the surface will come up.
One, be just the magnitude of bringing life right into the world and carrying that and then throwing all the hormone mix, all of the changes in your body.
(04:44):
And then, we see.
Folks who are struggling will be, especially at risk like before birth, which we often ignore.
Most folks are more often familiar with postpartum depression, anxiety, but a lot of those symptoms arise before birth even happens, and we.
Don't give enough attention or care to that.
(05:06):
And then when we think about trauma, you start to think about all the ways, even subconsciously, the way you were parented, the things that you got as a child, or the things that maybe you didn't get as a child.
And then now you have this.
Awesome and humbling experience to care for another little human being.
Sleep deprived, your hormones a mess, your mental health kind of needing support, and you're trying to figure out how to now parent.
(05:35):
And if you miss some of those things as a child, it becomes really hard to access them.
And so that's where we see the trauma really exasperates under all of that perfect storm of conditions.
That makes perfect sense.
And you if you didn't get the things that you want to give your child, it's like your.
(06:03):
Reparenting yourself while parenting your child.
And if you stumble, make mistakes or you don't live up to the expectations you're setting for yourself, it's like an enormous burden or.
(06:25):
It's a huge bar to live up to.
And if you didn't have a mother, then mothering yourself while mothering a child.
It's just, and if you don't have support or guidance, it's.
(06:46):
It can be soul crushing at times.
Yeah, yeah.
And I appreciate you pointing out kind of the stumbling, right? Because parenting never plans out the way you hope, and there's always mistakes and we really.
Talk about are you being good enough, showing up enough, not falling into this illusion of like perfect parenting, but that idea of stumbling, especially for some of the folks that kind of we support and work with, I.
(07:20):
When you're coming out of maybe contact with partial system, maybe you were incarcerated yourself, you already have that stigma, that label around you.
And this idea that you messed up or this stereotypes around the type of person or mother you are.
And then, so when you do stumble, which is natural part of parenting, the shame is so much more magnified because you feel like you're under a.
(07:45):
Higher microscope or a more intense focus of you really have to do this really so that people don't continue to judge you as a mother.
It's almost this double bind that you find yourself in.
Totally.
And almost like fear, like a total fear.
(08:06):
Like someone's going to come at any minute and.
Take away your child and be like, you're awful.
I declare you bad mother, and I'm taking your child.
That's like the fear that all mothers have.
(08:26):
I can't speak for all mothers, but.
Yeah.
And if you've already been incarcerated, God, it's, I just feel that like I, in the pit of my stomach, just that.
Constant judgment Or fear of being judged.
(08:50):
Yeah.
While you're also simultaneously trying to process your own experiences, your own trauma and.
As a country, we don't do a great job at providing kind of comprehensive mental health care.
It's really hard to access high quality mental health care.
So when you have folks who are already facing so many systematic barriers and then needing really high quality support to process what they've experienced, to have that experience of traumatic growth, right? Because we know folks can have a different chapter in their life.
(09:26):
But straddling that and also parenting and a combination of re-parenting can sometimes feel very overwhelming for folks in isolating.
And we don't do a good enough job enough, no matter the person uplifting and acknowledging the struggles of parenting and the difficulty, and allowing folks the grace to make mistakes and not.
(09:55):
Come with judgment or ideas on what they should have done differently.
And so when you have folks who are also facing additional stigmas becomes a real challenge.
And I think even for dads, as a society we have historically disenfranchised men and dads in parenting a little bit.
(10:18):
Yes.
And so this assumption that they can't or they shouldn't, or.
That their involvement isn't as important in some spaces, hasn't been fully recognized and supported.
And I think we definitely see that, jails, prisons, all of those spaces aren't conducive to children, families, they're not, they have not been set up.
(10:40):
There's ways you could do it better for sure, but they have not been set up to facilitate.
The strengthening of family bonds.
And so especially when you feel, when you see men who have been incarcerated, they're also not supported in being able to really strengthen family bonds.
And of course folks figure out how to do it.
(11:02):
The intuition of prisons and jails and all of that.
Folks figure out how to build those bonds.
But as a society, we are just now I think, entering into a realization that.
Both men, women, whatever parents are present for the children, need to really be empowered to be a part of the entire child rearing process.
(11:24):
And I think for men, there's been a lack of welcoming really in some spaces.
If we think about the dynamics at schools or at daycares or other childcare systems, they're not always thinking.
The entire family unit first there is, has been a historical tendency to overly on the mother or the male, the female identified caregiver, whoever that may be, and not being as inclusive for the entire parenting unit.
(11:56):
My there's almost in some.
Areas, like in my personal situation, there's like an overcompensation that sort of has the same effect.
Like my my husband takes our son to swim lessons and he is only dad.
(12:17):
Like eye roll and of course he just always gets a, oh my gosh, you're a dad here with your son.
And it's a, that's also alienating.
(12:38):
Yeah.
And then my mother is, will just fawn over oh, you're so involved.
That's so great.
That's so not what I had.
And it's some, it's, it is that.
(13:03):
It has somehow It is just as alienating.
Yeah.
It's like highlighting the, the whatever the, yeah.
This is not the norm.
Or it's so interesting that you're in this space or just highlighting the otherness of it.
(13:26):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's like saying oh, is daddy babysitting? Yeah.
It's don't babysit my own child.
Thank you.
Oh man.
So your so is it a nonprofit? Yeah, urban Alchemy is a nonprofit and we are located in numerous cities, San Francisco, la, Portland, Austin, Birmingham right now.
(13:53):
And what we do is really focus on building up safe communities, safe housing.
And that looks different in a lot of different spaces.
So for some kind of areas we're in, we're really focused on kind of community outreach, building relationships with folks, especially folks who are experiencing homelessness.
And that can include the.
(14:15):
Day to day of helping sweep or clean up.
But it's mostly about building relationships.
And so our folks, our practitioners who we call our employees work in the same area as generally.
And so they really get to build relationships with the folks around them.
The folks who are unhoused and the folks who are on their daily commute are going to school.
(14:38):
And it's really about coming back to that time where.
We know who was part of our neighbors, our neighborhoods, who was in our community.
We know their name, building relationships and building support, and then providing resources.
When folks kind of wanna access addiction or mental health treatment, how can we support them in navigating those services? We also operate, what are traditionally thought of as like homeless shelters, but we really see them as holistic and wellness centers.
(15:05):
So shelters for folks who are experiencing homelessness, of course, but moving beyond just providing, three meals in a cot and really providing kind of therapeutic services, addiction treatment.
'cause that's another space where.
The experiences of trauma right, are so rampant.
And so providing comprehensive mental health care as best we can and building up that addiction treatment, harm reduction treatment on site.
(15:31):
And then we also have programs.
They're called different things in different cities.
Hearts Circle, love, but those are kind of crisis response, alternative to police responding.
And that allows us, if somebody's in a crisis 9 1 1 calls are diverted to our folks and we respond either with kind of mental health care, crisis coordinating kind of deescalation techniques, whatever's needed in our there to provide a non-law enforcement response to folks who are experiencing a crisis.
(16:04):
And supporting them and deescalating coming down and then seeing, okay, what needs, where do they need to go? Sometimes it's hospitalization, sometimes it's connecting to resources.
Whatever that person needs.
And so that's our mission.
And our workforce is predominantly made up of folks who have what we call live expertise.
(16:24):
And those are folks who have been formerly incarcerated.
Some of them are former long-term offenders, but the crux of it folks have experienced a lot of trauma and had that post-traumatic growth who have experienced homelessness, addiction, community violence, all of the above, and have.
Learned from that experience and had the unique skillset to support other folks who might be in similar situations.
(16:49):
So that idea of these are folks who have really embraced post-traumatic growth and they are the experts that can then help other people that are on that journey.
That is brilliant.
.4280975I think in many ways your interview made me realize what my work is really about. 153 00:17:10,676.4280975 --> 00:17:10,796.4280975 I. 154 00:17:11,926.4280975 --> 00:17:30,66.4280975 I gave birth to twins three months early, and it was really scary and really traumatic and I was like a, and it, so they were in the NICU for three months and I was. 155 00:17:30,531.4280975 --> 00:17:42,531.4280975 Just like this, walking like gutted ghost, like holding my guts. 156 00:17:43,531.4280975 --> 00:17:51,206.4280975 And I, and then one day I realized like I have to be their mother. 157 00:17:51,986.4280975 --> 00:17:52,196.4280975 Yeah. 158 00:17:53,196.4280975 --> 00:17:55,896.4280975 Like I have to be their mother. 159 00:17:56,436.4280975 --> 00:17:56,856.4280975 Yeah. 160 00:17:56,916.4280975 --> 00:18:08,296.4280975 When you're still, it don't, yeah, like I can't be this, I have to and it can't be fake. 161 00:18:08,356.4280975 --> 00:18:10,66.4280975 Like it can't be put on. 162 00:18:10,66.4280975 --> 00:18:10,126.4280975 Yeah. 163 00:18:10,756.4280975 --> 00:18:14,696.4280975 Like I have to be Lucinda. 164 00:18:16,1.4280975 --> 00:18:16,991.4280975 Their mother. 165 00:18:17,771.4280975 --> 00:18:18,221.4280975 Yeah. 166 00:18:19,221.4280975 --> 00:18:37,591.4280975 And it was, that, that growth was, it was, the most shocking, period of growth that I've ever experienced. 167 00:18:37,591.4280975 --> 00:18:48,651.4280975 And and it all just seemed to, it was like I just realized I had to do it and then it just, and like I, it just happened. 168 00:18:49,71.4280975 --> 00:18:49,251.4280975 Yeah. 169 00:18:49,311.4280975 --> 00:18:53,21.4280975 And that's what I'm interested in is. 170 00:18:54,131.4280975 --> 00:18:56,831.4280975 People who have done that. 171 00:18:57,831.4280975 --> 00:18:58,371.4280975 Yeah. 172 00:18:59,691.4280975 --> 00:19:11,671.4280975 I think so much too of what you're saying is when you have to show up in mother, especially in those early days and under those circumstances, so much of it is that fight or flight, sometimes freeze response. 173 00:19:11,671.4280975 --> 00:19:14,506.4280975 You're just on autopilot, you're trying to get through it and you're really not. 174 00:19:15,991.4280975 --> 00:19:31,951.4280975 Having the time, the space, anything to process, like the trauma your body went through, the scariness of kind of the premature and all of those months in a hospital and what that does for you and for your family. 175 00:19:32,611.4280975 --> 00:19:35,131.4280975 And so I think there's a lot of times where. 176 00:19:36,241.4280975 --> 00:19:39,661.4280975 That four trimester, whatever can extend years later. 177 00:19:39,721.4280975 --> 00:19:58,36.4280975 It's not uncommon for mothers to experience significant anxiety two, three, four years after giving birth, but that sometimes is still related to that postpartum anxiety, depression, or other mental health concerns because you're in the thick of it and you're just. 178 00:19:58,106.4280975 --> 00:20:05,6.4280975 Kind of trying to survive the day to day that you don't have time to process kind of everything that you've experienced. 179 00:20:05,6.4280975 --> 00:20:20,246.4280975 And then once you get a moment to metaphorically breathe and it's not as intense, it's intense in a different way, right? But you have a different level of space that then all of those traumas, all of those experiences then bubble up. 180 00:20:20,936.4280975 --> 00:20:24,566.4280975 And so we don't fully appreciate or give folks credit that. 181 00:20:25,591.4280975 --> 00:20:28,231.4280975 There can be a delayed onset for a lot of people. 182 00:20:29,401.4280975 --> 00:20:32,641.4280975 Yeah, that's that. 183 00:20:33,121.4280975 --> 00:20:35,161.4280975 Like years. 184 00:20:35,311.4280975 --> 00:20:35,731.4280975 Yeah. 185 00:20:35,836.4280975 --> 00:20:38,146.4280975 That's crazy. 186 00:20:39,496.4280975 --> 00:20:39,976.4280975 Yeah. 187 00:20:39,976.4280975 --> 00:20:42,466.4280975 People don't seem to. 188 00:20:43,466.4280975 --> 00:20:44,486.4280975 Know that. 189 00:20:45,486.4280975 --> 00:20:45,846.4280975 Yeah. 190 00:20:45,846.4280975 --> 00:20:45,847.4280975 Yeah. 191 00:20:46,926.4280975 --> 00:20:58,941.4280975 So I feel like I feel like I'm not sure I would get much support if, a couple years down the road everything came out. 192 00:21:00,306.4280975 --> 00:21:00,666.4280975 Yeah. 193 00:21:00,746.4280975 --> 00:21:05,876.4280975 No, people wouldn't give you the same grace if it was like three or four months. 194 00:21:05,876.4280975 --> 00:21:15,746.4280975 Even then, people aren't, as a society, we do need to do better, but there's this idea that postpartum depression is like right after you get birth, for example. 195 00:21:16,436.4280975 --> 00:21:24,56.4280975 But you're not given the same credence when it comes up two to three years later, which is not uncommon. 196 00:21:25,56.4280975 --> 00:21:25,956.4280975 Yeah. 197 00:21:26,826.4280975 --> 00:21:27,276.4280975 Yeah. 198 00:21:27,376.4280975 --> 00:21:32,656.4280975 There's just an enormous lack of education. 199 00:21:33,646.4280975 --> 00:21:33,946.4280975 Yeah. 200 00:21:34,576.4280975 --> 00:21:35,201.4280975 A lack of care. 201 00:21:35,821.4280975 --> 00:21:36,681.4280975 Amy Schumer. 202 00:21:37,591.4280975 --> 00:21:41,881.4280975 Like a good book that I read I think shortly after I gave birth. 203 00:21:41,881.4280975 --> 00:21:44,11.4280975 But she was talking about birthing stories. 204 00:21:44,11.4280975 --> 00:21:59,131.4280975 It's an edited book and collected a bunch of birthing stories from folks and just this acknowledgement that birth can go very relatively smooth for folks and it can be very scary and very traumatic for many folks. 205 00:21:59,131.4280975 --> 00:22:04,621.4280975 And our maternal health rate and death rate is atrocious in this country. 206 00:22:05,221.4280975 --> 00:22:06,181.4280975 And. 207 00:22:06,601.4280975 --> 00:22:21,681.4280975 Just uplifting kind of those stories to bring out open and honest conversations about like how messy, chaotic, and like wicked birthing can be. 208 00:22:22,131.4280975 --> 00:22:29,391.4280975 And it can also be beautiful, right? But all of those stories along that spectrum need to be heard and valued and uplifted. 209 00:22:30,531.4280975 --> 00:22:33,531.4280975 Yes, absolutely. 210 00:22:34,326.4280975 --> 00:22:35,526.4280975 Absolutely. 211 00:22:36,526.4280975 --> 00:22:52,826.4280975 Yes, shouted from the rooftops because every, turn to your left, turn to your right, there's someone who's given birth and maybe had. 212 00:22:53,861.4280975 --> 00:23:00,651.4280975 A horribly traumatic experience and you don't even know, and it's not talked about. 213 00:23:00,901.4280975 --> 00:23:13,586.4280975 There's this, I remember feeling like, why didn't my mother warn me? Like, why didn't she tell me this shit was like, pregnancy can be awful. 214 00:23:14,536.4280975 --> 00:23:14,826.4280975 Yeah. 215 00:23:15,831.4280975 --> 00:23:21,231.4280975 Like, why didn't she warn me about I don't know any of this. 216 00:23:21,531.4280975 --> 00:23:27,541.4280975 The, it's, I know it's a generational thing for sure, and I'm from the south. 217 00:23:27,591.4280975 --> 00:23:36,771.4280975 That just doesn't help to, to not, yeah, to not tell your daughter that shit is hard. 218 00:23:37,521.4280975 --> 00:23:37,941.4280975 Yeah. 219 00:23:38,41.4280975 --> 00:23:45,851.4280975 As a society we don't do it, even as maybe your girlfriends or friends I think need to tell each other a little bit more. 220 00:23:45,851.4280975 --> 00:23:51,311.4280975 Not to scare folks, but like after birth is chaotic and. 221 00:23:52,311.4280975 --> 00:23:53,571.4280975 Shitty sometimes. 222 00:23:55,71.4280975 --> 00:23:56,1.4280975 Yeah. 223 00:23:56,1.4280975 --> 00:24:00,321.4280975 The healing journey is long and challenging. 224 00:24:01,321.4280975 --> 00:24:02,131.4280975 Yeah. 225 00:24:03,131.4280975 --> 00:24:03,731.4280975 Yeah. 226 00:24:03,876.4280975 --> 00:24:09,986.4280975 And that doesn't mean anything about like how much you love your baby. 227 00:24:10,526.4280975 --> 00:24:11,366.4280975 Not at all. 228 00:24:11,426.4280975 --> 00:24:11,816.4280975 Yeah. 229 00:24:12,566.4280975 --> 00:24:22,436.4280975 Yeah, and it's not a reflection on you or your character or your strength, it's just the magnitude of bringing life. 230 00:24:23,606.4280975 --> 00:24:24,26.4280975 Yeah. 231 00:24:24,526.4280975 --> 00:24:45,556.4280975 The more we talk about folks experiences and think especially like trauma, we can help to eliminate some of that shame, some of that kind of that isolation and really help folks, like when we've experienced traumatic things, it's never gonna be something that goes away, but. 232 00:24:46,156.4280975 --> 00:24:52,246.4280975 We try to make it a chapter in our story, just not the current chapter as much. 233 00:24:52,366.4280975 --> 00:24:52,936.4280975 Yeah. 234 00:24:54,76.4280975 --> 00:24:56,266.4280975 And shame. 235 00:24:57,266.4280975 --> 00:25:06,696.4280975 I feel like shame is the most insidious thing that you can feel. 236 00:25:07,826.4280975 --> 00:25:17,51.4280975 And I think people do enough blaming and shaming of themselves that you don't need to pile it on from other places as well. 237 00:25:17,51.4280975 --> 00:25:17,111.4280975 I. 238 00:25:18,111.4280975 --> 00:25:18,401.4280975 Yeah. 239 00:25:18,686.4280975 --> 00:25:19,136.4280975 Yeah. 240 00:25:20,136.4280975 --> 00:25:23,286.4280975 The stigma, all of those pieces Yeah. 241 00:25:23,346.4280975 --> 00:25:34,386.4280975 That just make people unwilling to share, unwilling to seek help because they're, they might be judged or criticized. 242 00:25:35,576.4280975 --> 00:25:37,706.4280975 It keeps you isolated. 243 00:25:38,516.4280975 --> 00:25:44,166.4280975 It keeps you from reaching out, it keeps you silent. 244 00:25:44,676.4280975 --> 00:25:48,86.4280975 And that's just, it doesn't have to be that way. 245 00:25:49,86.4280975 --> 00:25:49,376.4280975 Yeah. 246 00:25:50,376.4280975 --> 00:25:55,696.4280975 I, so I think it's so remarkable that. 247 00:25:56,761.4280975 --> 00:26:05,246.4280975 So much of the workforce is people who have lived experience. 248 00:26:05,746.4280975 --> 00:26:19,766.4280975 That's just, it should always be that way and you, and for you to have recognized that you weren't equipped to, to help some of those people. 249 00:26:20,826.4280975 --> 00:26:25,336.4280975 That takes a lot of awareness and. 250 00:26:26,336.4280975 --> 00:26:29,246.4280975 Not everyone has that awareness. 251 00:26:30,746.4280975 --> 00:26:42,266.4280975 I think broadly we just I have this idea that people are capable of change and that kind of covers a gamut of things like folks who have done things that. 252 00:26:42,776.4280975 --> 00:26:46,226.4280975 Maybe aren't so great, but they have the capacity for change. 253 00:26:46,316.4280975 --> 00:27:03,86.4280975 And just like folks who have experienced really difficult events or experiences or had traumatic childhoods or traumatic persons themselves and are struggling also have the capacity to change right in that way and to heal. 254 00:27:03,266.4280975 --> 00:27:10,226.4280975 So the idea that we can transform and we can overcome, I think is inherent in. 255 00:27:11,591.4280975 --> 00:27:12,761.4280975 Most human nature. 256 00:27:12,821.4280975 --> 00:27:24,281.4280975 And so just supporting that and uplifting that and giving big folks the space and the opportunity to actually realize that change, I think is what we as a society need to do better at. 257 00:27:25,271.4280975 --> 00:27:26,51.4280975 Yes. 258 00:27:26,741.4280975 --> 00:27:28,726.4280975 Yeah, I totally agree. 259 00:27:29,726.4280975 --> 00:27:34,916.4280975 Thank you so much for being here. 260 00:27:36,116.4280975 --> 00:27:38,906.4280975 It's been really awesome. 261 00:27:39,656.4280975 --> 00:27:40,46.4280975 Thank you. 262 00:27:40,286.4280975 --> 00:27:41,516.4280975 I appreciate you having me. 263 00:27:41,516.4280975 --> 00:27:43,286.4280975 It was nice speaking with you today.
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