July 8, 2024 • 44 mins
This week, Anjali Bansal and Sandy Estrada, welcome Stefanie Gervasi, the Director of U.S. Partnerships and Alliances for Alation. Alation is a leading provider of data cataloging and governance solutions designed to empower organizations to harness the power of their data effectively.
In this episode, they dive into the intricate relationships between software companies, consulting firms, and data executives. They also discuss the importance of partnerships, the role of consulting firms in guiding clients, and the critical factors for successful collaborations. Whether you're a data executive, a consulting firm, or a software vendor, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge to help you navigate the complex world of partnerships in data.
Join us for an engaging conversation filled with practical advice and industry insights.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, Sandy here. Welcome to another episode of How I Met Your Data.
This week, Anjali and I are welcoming Stephanie Gervasi.
Stephanie is the Director of U.S. Partnerships and Alliances for Alation.
Alation is a leading provider of data cataloging and governance solutions designed
to empower organizations to harness the power of their data effectively.
(00:21):
If you would like to think of it as a librarian for your data,
organizing, indexing all your information in one central hub.
This not only enhances data accessibility, but also improves data quality and
collaboration across teams.
What sets Alational apart, it's his ability to automate data governance and
stewardship processes.
It promotes data democratization, ensuring compliance and regulations and internal
(00:44):
policies, and provides data consumers with self-service access to trusted information.
So we thought it'd be great to have Stephanie on the podcast primarily because
one of the things that I always find with data executives, when they make decisions
in terms of purchasing software,
they do usually one of three things or all of these three things.
(01:05):
They research the software companies themselves.
They reach out to their partners, consulting firms that they work with and ask for their opinions.
And they work with research organizations such as Gartner or Forrester to look
at what research those organizations have done.
Usually what I tell our clients is to try all three and ensure you're getting
a broad perspective of the decision making here with software companies.
(01:29):
And one of the interesting facets about all this is that software companies
and consulting firms usually have partnerships with each other.
And there's pros and cons to this, depending on who you are and where you sit.
As a software company, you have a stake in having a partnership with consulting
firms because you want consulting firms to talk about your software.
(01:49):
As a consulting firm, you want to have a partnership with software companies
because you want to have access to the latest and greatest capabilities of the
leading software providers in the market space.
As a data leader, an executive trying to make decisions, both with consulting
firms and software companies, it's important for you to understand these relationships,
the pros and cons of them, and what to think about when you're first engaging
(02:11):
with a consulting firm or a software company and asking them questions.
I think that's an interesting kind of little weird thing that happens in the
industry that no one talks about, at least not openly.
This episode is really dedicated to that interesting relationship between software
companies, consulting firms, and our clients.
(02:32):
So we're going to dive into that. I also want to just mention that this summer
we're going to be releasing just a couple episodes.
We're going to sputter into the last few episodes of the season.
Our goal originally was to have 10 episodes for the first season,
and this is episode eight.
Nine, if you add the special episode released a couple of weeks ago,
(02:53):
but it really is episode eight. We have two more lined up.
Those will drop sometime early August and the other mid-September.
And the reason for that is I'm taking some time off.
So I really want to enjoy the summer. My wife is a teacher. She has a summer off.
So I'm taking summer break and I'm really going to be focusing on my family
(03:14):
and travel and just unplugging a bit as much as possible. So with that,
it gives you an opportunity to catch up to our podcast episodes if you haven't listened to them all.
And Adjalee and I are just very, very thankful for you listening to us week
after week. We really appreciate it. And a number show.
We have over 600 downloads, tracking to 1,000 pretty fast.
(03:35):
So we're super excited about that. But thank you so much for being a listener.
So with that, our next episode with Stephanie Gervasi.
Music.
(03:59):
Knew Anjali already, but maybe we'll start there and then we can talk about how you and I met.
Yeah. So Anjali and I knew each other from Slalom, but interestingly enough,
we did not work there at the same time.
So I joined Slalom in 2014.
I had a number of other colleagues who were working in the New York office, ex-colleagues.
(04:22):
And so it was kind of like, you need to come here and be part of it.
And so I joined the New York office when it was still in its infancy, really.
It's certainly not the slalom that it is today when we were growing.
And it was fun. And I really spent most of my time in the data and analytics
space, even though we were selling everything from strategy through implementations
(04:44):
from a technical perspective.
But that's where my sweet spot was and my comfort zone. And that's where most
of my ex-customers were too. So it was just kind of easy to fall back into it.
So then fast forward, where I spent most of my career selling services.
I ended up here at Alation in a partner role after COVID, right?
Coming back out of it, I had had a little part-time job when my kids were not in school.
(05:05):
And an ex-colleague of mine said, hey, we have this partner role open.
I think you might be good for it. And it was just one of those things we fell into.
And I really had no idea what I was doing. But Anjali was at Slalom in Philadelphia at the time.
And we just struck up a relationship and a friendship and a mutual respect for one another.
And I think she saw the value add that Alation could bring to organizations
(05:27):
from a data catalog and governance perspective.
And we just always stayed in touch. So here we are. Funny enough,
after like, you know, Steph and I got to know each other a little bit better,
we actually realized we were at another company prior to our slalom days.
Never really overlapped either, but it was like, you know, Jersey, Boston based company.
And we're like, wait a minute, you were there too. Oh my God.
(05:47):
But then even funnier is now like my husband and I are big pickleball players.
And did not realize that the pro that taught our initial clinics is actually Steph's cousin.
That was a fun lunch that we had where we discovered that. I think that cemented
the relationship right there, right?
Where we were like, well, Larry's my cousin. She was like, what?
(06:09):
Oh, wow. So we sent him a selfie of us and the rest is history. Well, that's great.
That's great. And Anjali brought you to me, to Myer World. Yeah.
Because Cervelo is an Alation partner.
And Anjali, when she joined us, she was like, who are your partners?
We had a whole discussion about
who we're trying to formalize our partnerships with and drive through.
(06:29):
And Alisha was one of them. So she could not speak enough about you,
Steph, and was super excited to reconnect.
So speaking of partnerships, you've seen both sides of the world.
So what role did you have at Slalom?
What was your focus there? I was a sales executive.
I mean, for the most part, already been an individual contributor my entire
career, right? I mean, I started in kind of staffing, right?
(06:51):
Administrative and clerical staffing after realizing advertising and sitting
behind a desk was certainly not for me.
And, you know, back in the day, we used to like knock on doors and get thrown out of buildings.
I mean, it was just very different there. And I fell into technical staffing,
like on a fluke, like somebody, I think a recruiter reached out to me and said,
hey, there's this budding business.
(07:13):
They're really focused on technical, but they're doing staff augmentation.
It's a really hot topic at the moment. Are you interested?
And I remember thinking, there's no way. Like technical? No,
no. But I love the manager. She promised to teach me everything.
And again, like everything, you learn enough to be dangerous.
You build relationships.
You uncover needs. And then you figure out what levers to pull to get everyone
(07:37):
over the goal line. And so it grew from there.
I moved into solutions and selling bigger things.
And then luckily enough, I got hired into a boutique consultancy in 2005 called
Knightsbridge Solutions.
They were vendor agnostic, but very focused on BI and data warehousing.
And it was a startup for all intents and purposes. I think when I joined,
(07:59):
it was probably 250 or maybe 300 people.
But we were competing with Accenture and IBM and all of the big boys.
And it was such a specialized company, the way that they grew talent, right?
They had a landing company called Kensington, which was their training ground.
So they would augment their teams with people and would train them on the job.
(08:23):
And then after two years, you had to be promoted up into Knightsbridge or you
had to leave and go find another opportunity.
So as a result, like every consultancy, it's all about your people, right?
The slides may look different. The logos may look different.
We're all kind of going after the same thing.
Sometimes there's solutions that really bring, I think, you know,
go-to-market strategies and a change or an accelerator, if you will.
(08:47):
But for the most part, when you're a consultant, right, you're going after how
to make businesses better, how to augment staff, how to identify gaps,
right, and help their businesses grow.
So I really fell into that and I loved it. I've been in the data space ever
since, just trying to help customers with their problems and challenges and
find solutions that make sense.
(09:07):
So now that you've been both on the consulting side and working for a software
vendor as head of partnerships, what would you say are the benefits of partnerships
between software companies and consulting firms?
I think like everything, I think about both sides of things, right?
A partnership is a strategic relationship and you form that with another business
(09:28):
or an expert who's really serving the same market as you are, right?
So you think of it as this mutually beneficial alliance where you can feed off of each other.
So what I like to think about it is the partners I'm working with,
we're combining our strengths, we're trying to help each other grow,
and we're providing mutual value to that end customer.
(09:48):
So those consulting partnerships are really effective because they try to create
leverage, right, for both organizations.
The other way I look at it is I think partnerships, especially with our consulting
firms, is they can bolster our reputation, right, and establish you as a trusted authority.
So, yeah, we are responsible at Alation for creating the data catalog category,
(10:11):
and we remain a leader in the space despite multiple challengers and legacy organizations.
But we can say that. But if we have a partner come in and say,
Alation's the leader for X, Y, and Z reasons,
yes, but here's why they should be the leader in your category based on your
use case, based on wanting to serve the enterprise, right? Not just a subset, et cetera.
(10:33):
And it's not a software company selling their product, right?
There's a bigger vision there.
The third thing is acquiring new customers far outweighs the cost of retaining
and upselling existing customer base. And as an ARR business.
We really want to find ways not to have to replace ARR, but grow that ARR.
Customer churn is public enemy number one. I think partners can help with that.
(10:56):
Because again, our Ballywick is not necessarily the strategy or change management and adoption.
It's the software and the value it brings to the organization.
That's where our partners come in like you.
Yeah. From a partner perspective, I feel that the relationships are always dependent
on the the size of the partnership of the software company, honestly, right?
(11:18):
You know, Cervelo has been around since 2009. And back then our focus was cloud.
When cloud wasn't really at the forefront of how everybody did data.
And now it is at the forefront.
You're crazy to think like, I'm going to do my stuff in house,
right? That never happens anymore.
It has to sit somewhere and be cloud first and born in the cloud,
et cetera, in terms of technologies that you're were using.
(11:39):
So when we first started, our partnerships were with small software companies,
because at the time, these companies were all startups.
So we went in deep with them, we got really deep with those with those partnerships
to the point where we were providing ideas and brokering, you know,
change in the product itself.
And we find that our partnerships take this maturity curve, even today,
(12:00):
where as Cervelo, we're constantly looking at what's coming next,
and who are the next big partners we need to think about that may have something
unique and novel in the marketplace, and we need to be part of that partnership.
But that relationship starts off really nice, hot and heavy,
as we've seen. And then after a while, that company gets large.
And you know, it's what have you done for me lately is conversation usually
(12:20):
in terms of the relationship between the software vendor and a consulting partner.
How do you see that in terms of ensuring there's alignment there?
I think it becomes difficult for a software vendor to think through that in
terms of how they're leveraging their partnerships, depending on how mature
they are as an organization.
Think you need to determine out of the gate with any partnership,
(12:42):
you know, what's your desired business outcome, right?
Understand the why behind wanting to create a partnership.
Now, I found that I haven't necessarily had to go out and recruit partners to
work with, that partners are coming to us.
So you have to kind of weed through why are you coming to us?
Is it because we're the leader in the space and you want to be associated with us?
(13:06):
Is it because you have a thriving data an analytics practice and you get asked
about, you know, data catalog and data governance a lot, right?
So figuring that piece out first, then you can narrow the discussion down on
what's the ideal customer profile, right?
Because not every partner has the same ideal customer profile.
And it could be industry and it could be size and it could be geography or use case, et cetera.
(13:31):
The third thing is then you have to be clear on each party's roles,
responsibilities, and what what those benefits are, and then formalize everything
with that written agreement to make sure we're not going to dispute those things.
But the fundamental key is to structure each partnership as a win-win engagement.
It has to be able to play, you know, both sides of it, right?
(13:51):
The incentives you create for both of us to support each other,
then the more inclined everyone's going to feel the partnership is beneficial.
When I think of, you know, partnership, I really think of two words,
and that's just mutual benefit.
Now, the pendulum might swing one way or the other, depending on kind of what
motions are going on and what pursuits and where the deal progressions are in their evolution.
(14:16):
If customers are asking us for a data governance strategy, right,
and we need a partner for that, well, who are we going to turn to?
Who do we know that really does that, right?
Or, you know, they're struggling with the change management, right?
Everyone puts a piece of software in, thinks it's a panacea,
but we all know what goes on behind the scenes, right? The age-old conversation.
(14:38):
So I think that those are kind of the fundamental things that need to be shared up front.
And then like every partnership, right, you'll do a quarterly business review.
You'll make sure you're tracking to those goals.
And if you're not and things are breaking down, you have to regroup and pivot.
And, you know, maybe some are going to be more successful than others.
(14:58):
Yeah, absolutely. We've talked a lot about the mutual benefits of a consulting
firm and a software vendor being partners.
What benefits do you see for our clients?
I mean, I know of a few from our perspective, but I'm curious from your perspective.
So, you know, it's back to that same piece of it is, you know,
the software is one fundamental piece.
(15:18):
Right. But overall, you know, what are your business goals? What's your strategy?
Where are you driving towards?
Right. So we can coexist with a competitor, right, a Calibra that's very focused
on locking data down in the in the finance space.
Right. And they can push that out to the enterprise, but it's not necessarily
an enterprise wide tool. So we would look to partners to help guide and coach
(15:40):
those customers with, does this make sense?
Or does it make sense to do a rip and replace?
I think there's that independent lens to guiding customers.
You can't sell them a lot of services that aren't going to benefit them and
hope your business is going to grow.
It's all based on your reputation and what you're delivering to the market.
So when I think of who benefits from the customer perspective,
(16:04):
it's that bigger piece of things.
And then making sure that investment has a return on it, right?
Because if it sits on a shelf or it's not adopted or, you know,
nobody's using that, that's a waste of money and everybody looks bad.
So I think that that's where you can help a customer really thrive in making
recommendations along that line. Yeah, absolutely.
(16:26):
From our experience, at least the experience I've had working for mostly boutique
consulting firms in my career, and have worked in industry for a number of years,
I do see a difference between a smaller consulting arm that may only have the
bandwidth to have one or two very focused partnerships versus midsize boutique
(16:47):
consultancy, like a Cervelo,
for example, where we have more breadth capability, where we can look across strategically.
Strategically across kind of the higher players and maybe some net new players
that are coming in the marketplace and partner across a few to really be able
to provide that agnostic view to our clients.
Because at the end of the day, if you have a partner, a consulting firm that's
(17:08):
giving you advice and they actually only have one partnership in a specific
area, you have to question their advice a little bit versus those who may have
multiple partnerships.
Now, fast forward that to a massive global SI, right? Yeah.
I also question their authority as well, because most of those organizations
are siloed, where you might have a massive arm of experts in a specific area
(17:32):
with a specific tool set, and they know that tool inside and out,
and that's all they're printing.
So getting advice from them is difficult sometimes across the board.
But I do think that that's the benefit to the client is, hey,
what partnerships do you have?
Consulting firm X and understanding how you can leverage that information is
going to be critical for them. For sure.
I mean, I continue Continue to coach internally with the field staff that it's
(17:55):
important to know the ecosystem within an account that you're having conversations with, right?
It should be part of discovery to understand who are your partners that you
engage with, not technology partners, but who do you rely on for strategy and
guidance and forward thinking and who's doing your implementation work and your offshore work.
Putting that whole puzzle together, I think, allows for greater G2,
(18:17):
which just makes you a better person when you're coming up with a solution,
right? You become more valuable.
You're seen in a different light.
I mean, I think about when I was working at Accenture in the workday practice,
and we were doing a pitch for a very big bank in Canada, and they hadn't decided
what platform they were going on.
So here I am not only competing with Deloitte at the time, but we were also
(18:43):
competing with our own Accenture, SAP, and Oracle practices because the customer
still hadn't decided on a platform.
So to your point of, it's easy to say no one gets fired for hiring Accenture,
et cetera, but you have to go into it knowing kind of where their lens is coming from, right?
So, and if it's really truly the ability to be agnostic and.
(19:07):
And some of the feedback we'll get from time to time is, well,
XYZ partner, they partner with everybody.
And you can't necessarily ask a consulting firm whose end goal is to serve their
customer to align with one specific technology when there could be use cases
and benefits in certain circumstances to different technologies.
(19:29):
And maybe it's not us that wins in the end.
However, what I ask my partners to do is have a vision line of sight and add
some credibility of the nuances between the competitors.
So again, you are providing the right information to the right people at the right time.
And if the customer decides to go in a different direction and doesn't want
(19:50):
to take your advice, then so be it, you did your best.
But just knowing how to put your best foot forward is an extension of what we're doing.
And the last thing I'll say is that I don't ask partners to sell elation.
I ask partners to help identify opportunities where elation may be a solution
and then allowing us to come in and do what we do best.
(20:12):
Yeah. I think, Steph, one of the other things that I've noticed with the partner
ecosystem and successful relationships, it's actually two things.
One is mindset, right? So making sure that with us and our core values,
we're aligning to partners that share that same mentality, share that same expectation
and desire for value with our clients.
(20:35):
But we're really kind of operating in the same mode.
And that was one of the things that I really loved about working with Alation
previously and now is just the mindset's very much similar in terms of what
we're trying to achieve.
And then also, I think part of the secret sauce is really ensuring that.
We're working and bringing, bringing together people that work well together and have fun together.
(20:59):
You have to have, you have to have some fun along the way. Right.
And to your, exactly to your point, it's still the age old people buy from people they like.
It's just, that's how, how people roll, right?
Is you want to be achieving something at the end and hopefully it's with people
whose company you enjoy, especially at work, right? We spend the majority of our lives working.
(21:19):
So you want to have some fun and feel like, you know, you're accomplishing something
at the end with people who are of like-minded value.
Yeah, that's very, very true. It's funny because sometimes our clients will
throw names of companies out or they're like, oh, why do you only partner with
two or three in this space?
And I'm sitting here going, you can't be an expert in everything.
You have to pick and choose, right? And we're doing some due diligence on our
(21:43):
side and we're trying our best to be an agnostic partner, but also ensure that
we're bringing bringing the best of breed and what our clients are asking for to the table.
Sometimes clients point us in the right direction and say, hey,
have you looked at platform X?
And I'll be honest about it and be like, actually, no, we haven't. I'll take a look though.
If it's interesting, I'll bring it to our teams and have them evaluate it.
(22:04):
Absolutely. We'll be at the forefront of that.
The landscape is changing so rapidly. You can't be all things to all people
and you can't stay on top of it.
And you think about like 20 years ago, how many more companies are on the planet
it, vying for everyone else's attention in similar veins with interesting nuances
that each brings. So it's very difficult.
(22:24):
At the pace we're moving, to stay on top of everything. Yeah,
absolutely. So we talked about all the rosy pieces.
What challenges do you encounter in these partnerships? Obviously not with us, but with others.
No, of course not. I think a couple things are, you know, certainly mismatched
expectations, right, out of the gate.
I think there are, you know, there's still the old school mentality of partners
(22:49):
want leads from you and you want leads from partners, right?
Right. And that still exists in a lot of places.
I think sometimes, like I mentioned, the positioning piece of things.
Right. Internally, there may be the perception that, you know,
why would you even think about positioning a competitive product out there?
So those are things that I have to navigate internally.
(23:10):
I think sometimes navigating complex integrations, setting expectations with
partners and customers and the ability to execute on that can be a little bit
challenging. And then lastly, it's about identifying opportunities, right?
I always say, please follow our process if you have a lead and something you
(23:31):
want to bring us into, because inevitably, three of your competitors are likely
in that same account and could be having those same conversations.
And then the last thing I'll say, at least in my experience here,
and truthfully, like I have nothing to compare it to.
So a lot of it's been anecdotal or talking with industry peers and understanding
(23:51):
kind of their nuances and how they go to market and what their partner programs look like.
But it's really about how much you're going to get paid. Like where's the dollars
going to come from by the work that we're doing and helping to identify these things?
Because Alation, one of our value propositions is it's pretty easy to implement
and get it up and running and start to get value out of the catalog, which is true.
(24:14):
But that is just the standing up of this. There's so much more to the curation
and the migrations and what data you're bringing into it.
And again, as you're going to grow across the enterprise.
And so I think that that opportunity...
If it's done in the right way, can really be fruitful for those partners.
But it's getting them to see that because that takes time as well.
(24:35):
Yeah. And I think some of the points you made, the misaligned ways of working
or outcomes that people are looking for works both ways, right?
I would say for Cervelo, we are not the type of company that we're not going
to go out of our way to do account alignment with partners unless it makes sense,
unless it's the right thing for the client, unless it'll bring additional outcomes for our clients.
(24:56):
Beyond that, we're not going to do it. So we've seen some challenges there for
sure. So I agree with that.
And I think for us, we're one of those types of consulting firms.
What we're challenged with is getting the time and focus from our partners sometimes
because we're not going to be that one that says, hey, I'm going to bring you
into every door I knock into.
So it can be a challenge because we're going to have a different perspective
(25:16):
of here's our value case.
Here's why we think you should work with us or why we think your clients should
work with us or customers.
And if you feel like introducing us, that's up to you. But this is a value add, right?
Because exactly as you said, we know elation is easy to implement.
The difficult part of it all is in the people in the process and the change
management around that.
And that is every organization in the world is challenged with that.
(25:41):
And that's kind of the secret sauce in terms of where we come in.
And I would agree with that. So a great product is nothing without a great strategy behind it, right?
And I think SaaS companies know this too well. Well, it doesn't mean they execute on it, right?
We know prospects continue to purchase things with tunnel vision,
shiny objects. This is going to solve all my problems.
(26:01):
They focus on the products, the functionality, they are caught up in features
and specs and they don't necessarily think long term or suss out those kind of dirty details.
So that strategy goes overlooked. And in order to create that output,
we need somebody who's going to help them.
Realize that and what drew them there in the first place, right? We know this.
(26:23):
The outcomes featured in case studies or testimonials is not coming from the product.
It's coming from the strategy behind the tool in working with the partner.
So again, that's that pulling together of what I vision is a true partnership.
Yeah. It's funny, Steph, that you say that. One of the things that we have run
(26:47):
into a number of times is, you know, our clients kind of evaluating these tools
that are truly like they offer the Cadillac solutions.
They offer everything under the sun.
And, you know, then we point them in the direction of a solution that is probably
a little better suited to where they are and their maturity,
their needs, their priorities.
(27:08):
And they'll start to say to us, but it does, you know, where you're guiding
us doesn't offer us X, Y, and Z.
And it's a really difficult conversation to then say, but why do you need X,
Y, and Z? Like, you can barely figure out what A is.
We're going all the way to the end of the alphabet. I don't think we need that.
So how do you, like, kind of think about enabling your partners to have that
(27:29):
conversation? Or are you having that conversation with your partners?
I would definitely have those conversations with my partners.
A very successful sales rep said
this to me, which I thought was a really brilliant way to think about it.
Because, you know, I don't come from that world. I don't think in the same way
of that sales kind of cycle.
But he said, there's no 100% panacea perfect software solution out there.
(27:53):
If you can get a customer to achieve 75 plus percent of what they're looking
for, they should go with you as the choice, right?
I mean, if you can get 75% of the way there, I think our consulting partners
should know So how to use the product, how to leverage it as an element of the
(28:14):
holistic strategy the client is looking for.
The way I look at it is if elation is sold and it's too big for an organization,
it's not going to be successful.
Then it falls back to the software is bad. The platform is bad.
Elation is terrible. Like, you know, they claim to do all these things. Right.
So there does need to be honest conversations because not every customer is for us.
(28:37):
Right. That's what makes the world go round. I mean, we have over 600,
plenty of testimonials. It runs across the different verticals and sizes and global and local.
But again, there's specific reasons that they'll purchase a leeshan.
There's other specific reasons they'll purchase a competitor that they may deem
is less expensive. And you can get into all those nuances, right?
(28:59):
But at the end of the day, you want people to walk away saying they did the
right thing. And maybe it's not right now.
Maybe it's sometime in the future because that tends to be what happens, right? Right.
And we see it often with some competitors where they're buying the Cadillac.
It's not successful. It's fallen down.
Everyone's got a bad taste in their mouth. And then you got to start all over
(29:22):
again and recreate that excitement and that fervor of, look what I'm bringing to you now.
This one, I promise, is going to be successful.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I kind of make the analogy of giving my six-year-old
the keys to my car when she can't ride her bike without training wheels.
Like, why would I do that?
(29:43):
Right. I fundamentally believe that you want to sell value and deliver something
that brings an end result.
And when you do those things well, inevitably you will grow into something as
opposed to these big bang.
(30:03):
And And sometimes they happen and sometimes they make sense,
but you want to understand what is going to get that customer to buy and to
be successful with that purchase.
I coach my partners to make good choices because, again, it's your reputation
and our reputation together.
(30:23):
I question when a partner is pushing an all-in solution for any part of an architecture,
especially around data governance. I mean, I look at it and I think there's
a lot of pieces to that data governance puzzle that are actually owned by different parties.
So why would you use one tool to solve for all of it? So I immediately pushed
back and I'm like, you don't have that process identified, right?
(30:44):
So if you go into any company and you ask them like, hey, this has happened.
I was helping a fast growing biopharma. They were looking for a data integration solution.
At first it started off as, well, I just want to put data from all these systems
into this one system. That's where the conversation started. Hearted.
And it ended up being, no, actually, I want a solution that does all these point-to-point
(31:05):
integrations for me across our entire enterprise suite.
First was a data project, and then it became an enterprise IT core.
How do I integrate all these platforms, et cetera? And it was like pulling trees,
trying to get them back to the original vision.
Because once they had that larger need of, well, if we're going to solve this
problem, let's solve all 2,500 problems we have as a company.
(31:28):
And we could do it by buying this one tool. you couldn't get them off of it.
It didn't matter what I said to them.
I consider myself a fairly good consultant and I could not get them off that conversation.
I just could not get them pulled back because once they decided that was going
to be the way that was going to be the way.
And at that point, I literally stepped aside and I said, you know,
if you guys are going to do this, I'm sorry, but we can't help you.
(31:48):
I literally said, we can't help
you because that is like, I know what our success areas are. It's data.
I'm not here to solve your enterprise systems, integration issues.
And I literally was just like, we can't help you with that.
So if that's now the vision of what you're going to go do, you're going to have
to go do it without us. And we exited that conversation.
But I don't think a lot of companies do that. They just sit there and they're
(32:09):
like, well, yeah, we're going to start here. And then the box gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
And they don't tell their client either, I'm out because that's not the box I'm used to working in.
They're not honest about that. They just see the revenue growing.
Or they just want an answer.
So they'll push the client to make a decision with the bigger box.
(32:29):
I think people are still afraid to say no, Sandy.
I think that word as a vendor, so to speak, becomes this scary thing to say,
what are they going to think if I back away?
I think when I was a salesperson and we'd get a blind RFP and you'd have to
go through it, I'd check kind of the timestamp and see if somebody else wrote the RFP.
(32:51):
There were tons of things that you would go through.
And depending on what the ask was, do we have bench people who could respond to it?
Did it make sense to respond to it for an exercise in, you know,
something we could reuse as an asset later?
Or some cases, writing respectful, thanks, but no thanks, because you're missing,
you know, all these key pieces of information, which lead me to believe that
(33:14):
this is not necessarily a legitimate opportunity for us. And we have to spend our time wisely.
And the hope is always that people have a respect for your ability to try to
have an honest conversation, because that's the other thing in this partner
world is I'm a firm believer in transparency and honesty.
(33:34):
It may not be the answer I'm looking to hear or the answer I'm looking to share
with you, but I think it just cements the fact that I want to be seen as a trusted
resource and doing what I say I'm going to do and having that.
Yeah. I remember the first time I heard a leader actually say no to an RFP.
I'm like, but why would you do that?
(33:54):
After years of experience, you see that if you go after the wrong opportunity,
all of those things, stuff that you were talking about, the reputation,
the satisfaction, all of that just goes out the window.
And so, I mean, no is a legitimate answer to give to somebody. Yeah.
I don't like responding to RFPs if you can't speak to the customer client.
(34:16):
Client, I have challenges with that.
Those are ones I don't like responding to.
I think that I also find that, and I've seen many RFPs where they don't know
what they're doing and they just play the RFP horrible.
We had an RFP response that ended up being one of our largest wins ever at the
(34:38):
firm that was poorly written.
When we first got that RFP, I remember thinking to myself, are they looking for software?
This is written like they're looking for software, not consulting services.
I don't understand this. And we therefore decided we're just going to ask a
bunch of questions because we had the opportunity to speak to them on the phone.
So we were like, well, let's just ask them because the feeling was maybe they
(34:58):
don't know what they're asking for.
And we were able to, through the conversation, understand that they had no idea
what they were doing. This was the first time they were going down this path.
They actually didn't have a team that understood the space.
So to us, it was a perfect opportunity because we're like, wow,
wow, we can shape their people, their process, and their technology decisions.
So this is exactly where we want to be with them. And we want it because of
(35:21):
that insight of really thinking through, who are you? Why are you asking these types of questions?
What are you really trying to achieve at the end of the day?
It led us to being able to uncover the true opportunity.
But I, you know, so I'll always start with a little bit of maybe they don't
know what they're doing. Let's have a conversation first and see if we can get to the bottom of it.
But if I don't have clarity after that conversation.
(35:42):
I'm very comfortable saying no. Right.
But you probably gave them insight into your ability and how you strategically
think about things as you're guiding and coaching them.
And then they're in a better position for the future as well.
Right. I'm consistently still amazed at how many customers don't really know
how to even buy software.
They don't know the process. They don't know all the levers that need to be
(36:05):
pulled. They don't necessarily always know the right questions to ask.
Again, the benefits of having an independent partner to help guide them through those pieces.
Or they're lazy and they go to a website that says, here's all the things that
you need to ask about software vendors.
And you grab that, they make that the RFP, and then you get it.
Like, did they download this from a competitor website?
(36:28):
Like, get it. They already decided and they actually have it. They're just lazy.
And probably between the three of us, we've probably seen every situation under
the sun. right, in the course of our careers?
I'm sure we have. I think one of the things that always surprises me,
you know, when our clients are surprised, is around timing.
And they don't really have a great sense of how long it's really going to take
(36:49):
to go from asking the questions to the time that you actually hit go and start implementation.
There's so much that needs to happen in between. And without a partner to guide
you and just working with those various vendors, I think it just becomes a very
tricky situation to navigate.
A lot of open questions of why is this taking so long? What do I need to be
(37:09):
thinking of? Just don't get answered.
Like you're just going transactionally from one vendor to the other.
Or they don't even know how to navigate their own orgs. Oh, wait,
now procurement wants me to get this clearance to security in the CISOs suite.
Now I need to go get funding from three other parts of the organization.
Now I need to go get buy-in for timelines.
What advice do you have for either budding partner leads at software companies
(37:35):
or consulting firms looking to get better at their partnerships?
I think it's find a model that, you know, you admire, right?
Whether it's a technology that you admire or a partner program you admire and
figure out what's making that work.
And there's always going to be nuances because again, some of it's back to the resources that you,
(37:58):
How much marketing dollars do you have, right? How do you want to go to market together, right?
And now we did these roundtables, which I loved the topic of that, right?
It's bringing customers together. It's almost like a mini customer gathering
that allows for dialogue that's open for lessons learned, challenges across the board.
(38:19):
And, you know, again, expanding their own network within other professionals,
right, that they can use as common ground.
We have an ongoing pursuit right now that a customer of ours who speaks for
us regularly met somebody at a CDO show in D.C.
In December, and they developed a relationship.
(38:41):
And she's leaning on him as she's going through her data catalog journey.
Right, and working with Alation.
And that wouldn't have happened if, you know, people didn't come together.
So when I think about those things, it's trying to be creative and not just
leaning on big industry and personal events,
but finding ways to put out content that resonates with people,
(39:03):
that doesn't make them feel skittish about asking questions, right?
And being able to have resources to tap into. to. I think attention spans have gotten shorter.
And so like doing big fat webinars for an hour and taking that time out of people's
days, it probably still happens and I'm sure they can still be successful.
(39:24):
But I think about why is YouTube and TikTok so palatable and popular? You know why?
Because people can consume content that's relevant to them in a very short period of time.
And then if they want to go delve deeper, they may be able to tap into other
things that go from there.
And that's when I think about budding partners, it's like finding ways to meet
(39:45):
people where they are right now.
Yeah, I agree with that. I feel that no one's gonna sign up for one hour webinar
these days. Right. The intent is there.
The intent is there, I'm sure. I see them come across and I'm like,
oh, that looks interesting.
And I get all excited about it. Before I hit that register button,
I think to myself, am I really going to show up to this? Probably not.
Don't register because I don't have time.
(40:07):
Because in this virtual world, our calendars are packed from the moment you
wake up to the moment you're logging off at the end of the day, it's going to be packed.
And any moment you don't have a meeting, you're probably finishing a document
or doing something or getting back to somebody via email or Slack or Teams or whatever it may be.
So yeah, time is precious these days. It's a different world.
(40:30):
We're not sitting at a desk.
We're actually way more, I feel like we're way more productive than we used to be as a society.
And you never shut it off. I mean, that's the reality.
It's very difficult to shut off. The only way to do that is like go somewhere
where you just don't have access, right?
Yeah. I mean, that was me in Yellowstone last week.
There was no cell service. So I knew very little of what was going on back in
(40:54):
the office until basically I got back.
You know what? My mind was clear. Yeah.
I'm going away for a bit. And I am literally, I have to delete the apps off
my phone, which is my plan.
I'm deleting all the work related apps and others off my phone.
And I'm shutting off my computer and I'm not opening, I'm hiding it from like
sight. So I know it's gone and just gone.
(41:16):
Who am I going to drive crazy while you're gone? Who am I driving crazy while you're gone?
I'm still here. I don't have six weeks to take off.
Probably due for a lunch, aren't
we? That's trouble. I just have like one final like partner question.
So, you know, one of the things that as we were building up our capabilities
here at Cervelo that I was really insistent on with our team was to ensure that
(41:40):
we were getting people certified, enabled.
We're really driving commitment on our end.
To say that we're spending the time, we're absorbing everything that elation
can teach us in order to be successful when we go out to the market,
when we start working with clients, implementing, helping with change management, whatever have you.
So that was one of the strategies that I employed. But are there other strategies,
(42:04):
either from the partner side or from the consulting side, that you would say
are really key to ensuring a successful and healthy partnership?
I think that one thing that is very undervalued is field-to-field alignment
and relationship development.
Knowing full well that sales executives or account managers in consulting firms
(42:28):
typically have a book or a bag of things that they're responsible for helping
customers think about and ultimately, quote unquote, sell.
We're not looking for deep knowledge on elation, but the opportunities to whet
the appetite of those prospects in those conversations to tee that up.
And a lot of that comes from rep to rep alignment, right? Is do we like the
(42:51):
same thing? Do we like each other?
Are we the same people? Do we have the same values? Do we sell in the same way?
You know, some people will sell to anybody and drop it all in and not look back.
Others have real conscience.
You're trusting me. I want to to deliver for you. So I think field to field
alignment can be beneficial in building those relationships.
(43:12):
And again, allows for you to potentially speak the same language and show up
together, which again, creates a different experience when it comes to selling a product.
So I think that's certainly one thing, your commitment, you know,
definitely demonstrates those things.
And I think then again, executing, you know, and finding an opportunity or two
that you can then turn into that case study that goes back to our partner had
(43:35):
the strategy and they're seeing it through.
You know, those are things that resonate internally that give you credibility
and build it from there. That's great advice.
Well, again, Stephanie, thank you so much for spending some time with us to
have this conversation.
I love hearing our partner's perspective on what is critical for both of us
to be successful, and that is a joint partnership for our clients.
(43:57):
The reality of the space space is that people move around.
And as you said, people buy from people. And I feel that same way in terms of who you partner with.
I always find that I'm going to have a better relationship with a software company
when the people they throw in front of me are easy to work with and understand
kind of our charge and what we're trying to achieve as a business as well.
(44:19):
So it's been fabulous working with you. And again, great insights.
And thank you for the chat.
Back at you. And thank you for having me as your guest today. This was really fun.
Music.
Hi, Sandy here. Welcome to another episode of How I Met Your Data.
This week, Anjali and I are welcoming Stephanie Gervasi.
Stephanie is the Director of U.S. Partnerships and Alliances for Alation.
Alation is a leading provider of data cataloging and governance solutions designed
to empower organizations to harness the power of their data effectively.
(00:21):
If you would like to think of it as a librarian for your data,
organizing, indexing all your information in one central hub.
This not only enhances data accessibility, but also improves data quality and
collaboration across teams.
What sets Alational apart, it's his ability to automate data governance and
stewardship processes.
It promotes data democratization, ensuring compliance and regulations and internal
(00:44):
policies, and provides data consumers with self-service access to trusted information.
So we thought it'd be great to have Stephanie on the podcast primarily because
one of the things that I always find with data executives, when they make decisions
in terms of purchasing software,
they do usually one of three things or all of these three things.
(01:05):
They research the software companies themselves.
They reach out to their partners, consulting firms that they work with and ask for their opinions.
And they work with research organizations such as Gartner or Forrester to look
at what research those organizations have done.
Usually what I tell our clients is to try all three and ensure you're getting
a broad perspective of the decision making here with software companies.
(01:29):
And one of the interesting facets about all this is that software companies
and consulting firms usually have partnerships with each other.
And there's pros and cons to this, depending on who you are and where you sit.
As a software company, you have a stake in having a partnership with consulting
firms because you want consulting firms to talk about your software.
(01:49):
As a consulting firm, you want to have a partnership with software companies
because you want to have access to the latest and greatest capabilities of the
leading software providers in the market space.
As a data leader, an executive trying to make decisions, both with consulting
firms and software companies, it's important for you to understand these relationships,
the pros and cons of them, and what to think about when you're first engaging
(02:11):
with a consulting firm or a software company and asking them questions.
I think that's an interesting kind of little weird thing that happens in the
industry that no one talks about, at least not openly.
This episode is really dedicated to that interesting relationship between software
companies, consulting firms, and our clients.
(02:32):
So we're going to dive into that. I also want to just mention that this summer
we're going to be releasing just a couple episodes.
We're going to sputter into the last few episodes of the season.
Our goal originally was to have 10 episodes for the first season,
and this is episode eight.
Nine, if you add the special episode released a couple of weeks ago,
(02:53):
but it really is episode eight. We have two more lined up.
Those will drop sometime early August and the other mid-September.
And the reason for that is I'm taking some time off.
So I really want to enjoy the summer. My wife is a teacher. She has a summer off.
So I'm taking summer break and I'm really going to be focusing on my family
(03:14):
and travel and just unplugging a bit as much as possible. So with that,
it gives you an opportunity to catch up to our podcast episodes if you haven't listened to them all.
And Adjalee and I are just very, very thankful for you listening to us week
after week. We really appreciate it. And a number show.
We have over 600 downloads, tracking to 1,000 pretty fast.
(03:35):
So we're super excited about that. But thank you so much for being a listener.
So with that, our next episode with Stephanie Gervasi.
Music.
(03:59):
Knew Anjali already, but maybe we'll start there and then we can talk about how you and I met.
Yeah. So Anjali and I knew each other from Slalom, but interestingly enough,
we did not work there at the same time.
So I joined Slalom in 2014.
I had a number of other colleagues who were working in the New York office, ex-colleagues.
(04:22):
And so it was kind of like, you need to come here and be part of it.
And so I joined the New York office when it was still in its infancy, really.
It's certainly not the slalom that it is today when we were growing.
And it was fun. And I really spent most of my time in the data and analytics
space, even though we were selling everything from strategy through implementations
(04:44):
from a technical perspective.
But that's where my sweet spot was and my comfort zone. And that's where most
of my ex-customers were too. So it was just kind of easy to fall back into it.
So then fast forward, where I spent most of my career selling services.
I ended up here at Alation in a partner role after COVID, right?
Coming back out of it, I had had a little part-time job when my kids were not in school.
(05:05):
And an ex-colleague of mine said, hey, we have this partner role open.
I think you might be good for it. And it was just one of those things we fell into.
And I really had no idea what I was doing. But Anjali was at Slalom in Philadelphia at the time.
And we just struck up a relationship and a friendship and a mutual respect for one another.
And I think she saw the value add that Alation could bring to organizations
(05:27):
from a data catalog and governance perspective.
And we just always stayed in touch. So here we are. Funny enough,
after like, you know, Steph and I got to know each other a little bit better,
we actually realized we were at another company prior to our slalom days.
Never really overlapped either, but it was like, you know, Jersey, Boston based company.
And we're like, wait a minute, you were there too. Oh my God.
(05:47):
But then even funnier is now like my husband and I are big pickleball players.
And did not realize that the pro that taught our initial clinics is actually Steph's cousin.
That was a fun lunch that we had where we discovered that. I think that cemented
the relationship right there, right?
Where we were like, well, Larry's my cousin. She was like, what?
(06:09):
Oh, wow. So we sent him a selfie of us and the rest is history. Well, that's great.
That's great. And Anjali brought you to me, to Myer World. Yeah.
Because Cervelo is an Alation partner.
And Anjali, when she joined us, she was like, who are your partners?
We had a whole discussion about
who we're trying to formalize our partnerships with and drive through.
(06:29):
And Alisha was one of them. So she could not speak enough about you,
Steph, and was super excited to reconnect.
So speaking of partnerships, you've seen both sides of the world.
So what role did you have at Slalom?
What was your focus there? I was a sales executive.
I mean, for the most part, already been an individual contributor my entire
career, right? I mean, I started in kind of staffing, right?
(06:51):
Administrative and clerical staffing after realizing advertising and sitting
behind a desk was certainly not for me.
And, you know, back in the day, we used to like knock on doors and get thrown out of buildings.
I mean, it was just very different there. And I fell into technical staffing,
like on a fluke, like somebody, I think a recruiter reached out to me and said,
hey, there's this budding business.
(07:13):
They're really focused on technical, but they're doing staff augmentation.
It's a really hot topic at the moment. Are you interested?
And I remember thinking, there's no way. Like technical? No,
no. But I love the manager. She promised to teach me everything.
And again, like everything, you learn enough to be dangerous.
You build relationships.
You uncover needs. And then you figure out what levers to pull to get everyone
(07:37):
over the goal line. And so it grew from there.
I moved into solutions and selling bigger things.
And then luckily enough, I got hired into a boutique consultancy in 2005 called
Knightsbridge Solutions.
They were vendor agnostic, but very focused on BI and data warehousing.
And it was a startup for all intents and purposes. I think when I joined,
(07:59):
it was probably 250 or maybe 300 people.
But we were competing with Accenture and IBM and all of the big boys.
And it was such a specialized company, the way that they grew talent, right?
They had a landing company called Kensington, which was their training ground.
So they would augment their teams with people and would train them on the job.
(08:23):
And then after two years, you had to be promoted up into Knightsbridge or you
had to leave and go find another opportunity.
So as a result, like every consultancy, it's all about your people, right?
The slides may look different. The logos may look different.
We're all kind of going after the same thing.
Sometimes there's solutions that really bring, I think, you know,
go-to-market strategies and a change or an accelerator, if you will.
(08:47):
But for the most part, when you're a consultant, right, you're going after how
to make businesses better, how to augment staff, how to identify gaps,
right, and help their businesses grow.
So I really fell into that and I loved it. I've been in the data space ever
since, just trying to help customers with their problems and challenges and
find solutions that make sense.
(09:07):
So now that you've been both on the consulting side and working for a software
vendor as head of partnerships, what would you say are the benefits of partnerships
between software companies and consulting firms?
I think like everything, I think about both sides of things, right?
A partnership is a strategic relationship and you form that with another business
(09:28):
or an expert who's really serving the same market as you are, right?
So you think of it as this mutually beneficial alliance where you can feed off of each other.
So what I like to think about it is the partners I'm working with,
we're combining our strengths, we're trying to help each other grow,
and we're providing mutual value to that end customer.
(09:48):
So those consulting partnerships are really effective because they try to create
leverage, right, for both organizations.
The other way I look at it is I think partnerships, especially with our consulting
firms, is they can bolster our reputation, right, and establish you as a trusted authority.
So, yeah, we are responsible at Alation for creating the data catalog category,
(10:11):
and we remain a leader in the space despite multiple challengers and legacy organizations.
But we can say that. But if we have a partner come in and say,
Alation's the leader for X, Y, and Z reasons,
yes, but here's why they should be the leader in your category based on your
use case, based on wanting to serve the enterprise, right? Not just a subset, et cetera.
(10:33):
And it's not a software company selling their product, right?
There's a bigger vision there.
The third thing is acquiring new customers far outweighs the cost of retaining
and upselling existing customer base. And as an ARR business.
We really want to find ways not to have to replace ARR, but grow that ARR.
Customer churn is public enemy number one. I think partners can help with that.
(10:56):
Because again, our Ballywick is not necessarily the strategy or change management and adoption.
It's the software and the value it brings to the organization.
That's where our partners come in like you.
Yeah. From a partner perspective, I feel that the relationships are always dependent
on the the size of the partnership of the software company, honestly, right?
(11:18):
You know, Cervelo has been around since 2009. And back then our focus was cloud.
When cloud wasn't really at the forefront of how everybody did data.
And now it is at the forefront.
You're crazy to think like, I'm going to do my stuff in house,
right? That never happens anymore.
It has to sit somewhere and be cloud first and born in the cloud,
et cetera, in terms of technologies that you're were using.
(11:39):
So when we first started, our partnerships were with small software companies,
because at the time, these companies were all startups.
So we went in deep with them, we got really deep with those with those partnerships
to the point where we were providing ideas and brokering, you know,
change in the product itself.
And we find that our partnerships take this maturity curve, even today,
(12:00):
where as Cervelo, we're constantly looking at what's coming next,
and who are the next big partners we need to think about that may have something
unique and novel in the marketplace, and we need to be part of that partnership.
But that relationship starts off really nice, hot and heavy,
as we've seen. And then after a while, that company gets large.
And you know, it's what have you done for me lately is conversation usually
(12:20):
in terms of the relationship between the software vendor and a consulting partner.
How do you see that in terms of ensuring there's alignment there?
I think it becomes difficult for a software vendor to think through that in
terms of how they're leveraging their partnerships, depending on how mature
they are as an organization.
Think you need to determine out of the gate with any partnership,
(12:42):
you know, what's your desired business outcome, right?
Understand the why behind wanting to create a partnership.
Now, I found that I haven't necessarily had to go out and recruit partners to
work with, that partners are coming to us.
So you have to kind of weed through why are you coming to us?
Is it because we're the leader in the space and you want to be associated with us?
(13:06):
Is it because you have a thriving data an analytics practice and you get asked
about, you know, data catalog and data governance a lot, right?
So figuring that piece out first, then you can narrow the discussion down on
what's the ideal customer profile, right?
Because not every partner has the same ideal customer profile.
And it could be industry and it could be size and it could be geography or use case, et cetera.
(13:31):
The third thing is then you have to be clear on each party's roles,
responsibilities, and what what those benefits are, and then formalize everything
with that written agreement to make sure we're not going to dispute those things.
But the fundamental key is to structure each partnership as a win-win engagement.
It has to be able to play, you know, both sides of it, right?
(13:51):
The incentives you create for both of us to support each other,
then the more inclined everyone's going to feel the partnership is beneficial.
When I think of, you know, partnership, I really think of two words,
and that's just mutual benefit.
Now, the pendulum might swing one way or the other, depending on kind of what
motions are going on and what pursuits and where the deal progressions are in their evolution.
(14:16):
If customers are asking us for a data governance strategy, right,
and we need a partner for that, well, who are we going to turn to?
Who do we know that really does that, right?
Or, you know, they're struggling with the change management, right?
Everyone puts a piece of software in, thinks it's a panacea,
but we all know what goes on behind the scenes, right? The age-old conversation.
(14:38):
So I think that those are kind of the fundamental things that need to be shared up front.
And then like every partnership, right, you'll do a quarterly business review.
You'll make sure you're tracking to those goals.
And if you're not and things are breaking down, you have to regroup and pivot.
And, you know, maybe some are going to be more successful than others.
(14:58):
Yeah, absolutely. We've talked a lot about the mutual benefits of a consulting
firm and a software vendor being partners.
What benefits do you see for our clients?
I mean, I know of a few from our perspective, but I'm curious from your perspective.
So, you know, it's back to that same piece of it is, you know,
the software is one fundamental piece.
(15:18):
Right. But overall, you know, what are your business goals? What's your strategy?
Where are you driving towards?
Right. So we can coexist with a competitor, right, a Calibra that's very focused
on locking data down in the in the finance space.
Right. And they can push that out to the enterprise, but it's not necessarily
an enterprise wide tool. So we would look to partners to help guide and coach
(15:40):
those customers with, does this make sense?
Or does it make sense to do a rip and replace?
I think there's that independent lens to guiding customers.
You can't sell them a lot of services that aren't going to benefit them and
hope your business is going to grow.
It's all based on your reputation and what you're delivering to the market.
So when I think of who benefits from the customer perspective,
(16:04):
it's that bigger piece of things.
And then making sure that investment has a return on it, right?
Because if it sits on a shelf or it's not adopted or, you know,
nobody's using that, that's a waste of money and everybody looks bad.
So I think that that's where you can help a customer really thrive in making
recommendations along that line. Yeah, absolutely.
(16:26):
From our experience, at least the experience I've had working for mostly boutique
consulting firms in my career, and have worked in industry for a number of years,
I do see a difference between a smaller consulting arm that may only have the
bandwidth to have one or two very focused partnerships versus midsize boutique
(16:47):
consultancy, like a Cervelo,
for example, where we have more breadth capability, where we can look across strategically.
Strategically across kind of the higher players and maybe some net new players
that are coming in the marketplace and partner across a few to really be able
to provide that agnostic view to our clients.
Because at the end of the day, if you have a partner, a consulting firm that's
(17:08):
giving you advice and they actually only have one partnership in a specific
area, you have to question their advice a little bit versus those who may have
multiple partnerships.
Now, fast forward that to a massive global SI, right? Yeah.
I also question their authority as well, because most of those organizations
are siloed, where you might have a massive arm of experts in a specific area
(17:32):
with a specific tool set, and they know that tool inside and out,
and that's all they're printing.
So getting advice from them is difficult sometimes across the board.
But I do think that that's the benefit to the client is, hey,
what partnerships do you have?
Consulting firm X and understanding how you can leverage that information is
going to be critical for them. For sure.
I mean, I continue Continue to coach internally with the field staff that it's
(17:55):
important to know the ecosystem within an account that you're having conversations with, right?
It should be part of discovery to understand who are your partners that you
engage with, not technology partners, but who do you rely on for strategy and
guidance and forward thinking and who's doing your implementation work and your offshore work.
Putting that whole puzzle together, I think, allows for greater G2,
(18:17):
which just makes you a better person when you're coming up with a solution,
right? You become more valuable.
You're seen in a different light.
I mean, I think about when I was working at Accenture in the workday practice,
and we were doing a pitch for a very big bank in Canada, and they hadn't decided
what platform they were going on.
So here I am not only competing with Deloitte at the time, but we were also
(18:43):
competing with our own Accenture, SAP, and Oracle practices because the customer
still hadn't decided on a platform.
So to your point of, it's easy to say no one gets fired for hiring Accenture,
et cetera, but you have to go into it knowing kind of where their lens is coming from, right?
So, and if it's really truly the ability to be agnostic and.
(19:07):
And some of the feedback we'll get from time to time is, well,
XYZ partner, they partner with everybody.
And you can't necessarily ask a consulting firm whose end goal is to serve their
customer to align with one specific technology when there could be use cases
and benefits in certain circumstances to different technologies.
(19:29):
And maybe it's not us that wins in the end.
However, what I ask my partners to do is have a vision line of sight and add
some credibility of the nuances between the competitors.
So again, you are providing the right information to the right people at the right time.
And if the customer decides to go in a different direction and doesn't want
(19:50):
to take your advice, then so be it, you did your best.
But just knowing how to put your best foot forward is an extension of what we're doing.
And the last thing I'll say is that I don't ask partners to sell elation.
I ask partners to help identify opportunities where elation may be a solution
and then allowing us to come in and do what we do best.
(20:12):
Yeah. I think, Steph, one of the other things that I've noticed with the partner
ecosystem and successful relationships, it's actually two things.
One is mindset, right? So making sure that with us and our core values,
we're aligning to partners that share that same mentality, share that same expectation
and desire for value with our clients.
(20:35):
But we're really kind of operating in the same mode.
And that was one of the things that I really loved about working with Alation
previously and now is just the mindset's very much similar in terms of what
we're trying to achieve.
And then also, I think part of the secret sauce is really ensuring that.
We're working and bringing, bringing together people that work well together and have fun together.
(20:59):
You have to have, you have to have some fun along the way. Right.
And to your, exactly to your point, it's still the age old people buy from people they like.
It's just, that's how, how people roll, right?
Is you want to be achieving something at the end and hopefully it's with people
whose company you enjoy, especially at work, right? We spend the majority of our lives working.
(21:19):
So you want to have some fun and feel like, you know, you're accomplishing something
at the end with people who are of like-minded value.
Yeah, that's very, very true. It's funny because sometimes our clients will
throw names of companies out or they're like, oh, why do you only partner with
two or three in this space?
And I'm sitting here going, you can't be an expert in everything.
You have to pick and choose, right? And we're doing some due diligence on our
(21:43):
side and we're trying our best to be an agnostic partner, but also ensure that
we're bringing bringing the best of breed and what our clients are asking for to the table.
Sometimes clients point us in the right direction and say, hey,
have you looked at platform X?
And I'll be honest about it and be like, actually, no, we haven't. I'll take a look though.
If it's interesting, I'll bring it to our teams and have them evaluate it.
(22:04):
Absolutely. We'll be at the forefront of that.
The landscape is changing so rapidly. You can't be all things to all people
and you can't stay on top of it.
And you think about like 20 years ago, how many more companies are on the planet
it, vying for everyone else's attention in similar veins with interesting nuances
that each brings. So it's very difficult.
(22:24):
At the pace we're moving, to stay on top of everything. Yeah,
absolutely. So we talked about all the rosy pieces.
What challenges do you encounter in these partnerships? Obviously not with us, but with others.
No, of course not. I think a couple things are, you know, certainly mismatched
expectations, right, out of the gate.
I think there are, you know, there's still the old school mentality of partners
(22:49):
want leads from you and you want leads from partners, right?
Right. And that still exists in a lot of places.
I think sometimes, like I mentioned, the positioning piece of things.
Right. Internally, there may be the perception that, you know,
why would you even think about positioning a competitive product out there?
So those are things that I have to navigate internally.
(23:10):
I think sometimes navigating complex integrations, setting expectations with
partners and customers and the ability to execute on that can be a little bit
challenging. And then lastly, it's about identifying opportunities, right?
I always say, please follow our process if you have a lead and something you
(23:31):
want to bring us into, because inevitably, three of your competitors are likely
in that same account and could be having those same conversations.
And then the last thing I'll say, at least in my experience here,
and truthfully, like I have nothing to compare it to.
So a lot of it's been anecdotal or talking with industry peers and understanding
(23:51):
kind of their nuances and how they go to market and what their partner programs look like.
But it's really about how much you're going to get paid. Like where's the dollars
going to come from by the work that we're doing and helping to identify these things?
Because Alation, one of our value propositions is it's pretty easy to implement
and get it up and running and start to get value out of the catalog, which is true.
(24:14):
But that is just the standing up of this. There's so much more to the curation
and the migrations and what data you're bringing into it.
And again, as you're going to grow across the enterprise.
And so I think that that opportunity...
If it's done in the right way, can really be fruitful for those partners.
But it's getting them to see that because that takes time as well.
(24:35):
Yeah. And I think some of the points you made, the misaligned ways of working
or outcomes that people are looking for works both ways, right?
I would say for Cervelo, we are not the type of company that we're not going
to go out of our way to do account alignment with partners unless it makes sense,
unless it's the right thing for the client, unless it'll bring additional outcomes for our clients.
(24:56):
Beyond that, we're not going to do it. So we've seen some challenges there for
sure. So I agree with that.
And I think for us, we're one of those types of consulting firms.
What we're challenged with is getting the time and focus from our partners sometimes
because we're not going to be that one that says, hey, I'm going to bring you
into every door I knock into.
So it can be a challenge because we're going to have a different perspective
(25:16):
of here's our value case.
Here's why we think you should work with us or why we think your clients should
work with us or customers.
And if you feel like introducing us, that's up to you. But this is a value add, right?
Because exactly as you said, we know elation is easy to implement.
The difficult part of it all is in the people in the process and the change
management around that.
And that is every organization in the world is challenged with that.
(25:41):
And that's kind of the secret sauce in terms of where we come in.
And I would agree with that. So a great product is nothing without a great strategy behind it, right?
And I think SaaS companies know this too well. Well, it doesn't mean they execute on it, right?
We know prospects continue to purchase things with tunnel vision,
shiny objects. This is going to solve all my problems.
(26:01):
They focus on the products, the functionality, they are caught up in features
and specs and they don't necessarily think long term or suss out those kind of dirty details.
So that strategy goes overlooked. And in order to create that output,
we need somebody who's going to help them.
Realize that and what drew them there in the first place, right? We know this.
(26:23):
The outcomes featured in case studies or testimonials is not coming from the product.
It's coming from the strategy behind the tool in working with the partner.
So again, that's that pulling together of what I vision is a true partnership.
Yeah. It's funny, Steph, that you say that. One of the things that we have run
(26:47):
into a number of times is, you know, our clients kind of evaluating these tools
that are truly like they offer the Cadillac solutions.
They offer everything under the sun.
And, you know, then we point them in the direction of a solution that is probably
a little better suited to where they are and their maturity,
their needs, their priorities.
(27:08):
And they'll start to say to us, but it does, you know, where you're guiding
us doesn't offer us X, Y, and Z.
And it's a really difficult conversation to then say, but why do you need X,
Y, and Z? Like, you can barely figure out what A is.
We're going all the way to the end of the alphabet. I don't think we need that.
So how do you, like, kind of think about enabling your partners to have that
(27:29):
conversation? Or are you having that conversation with your partners?
I would definitely have those conversations with my partners.
A very successful sales rep said
this to me, which I thought was a really brilliant way to think about it.
Because, you know, I don't come from that world. I don't think in the same way
of that sales kind of cycle.
But he said, there's no 100% panacea perfect software solution out there.
(27:53):
If you can get a customer to achieve 75 plus percent of what they're looking
for, they should go with you as the choice, right?
I mean, if you can get 75% of the way there, I think our consulting partners
should know So how to use the product, how to leverage it as an element of the
(28:14):
holistic strategy the client is looking for.
The way I look at it is if elation is sold and it's too big for an organization,
it's not going to be successful.
Then it falls back to the software is bad. The platform is bad.
Elation is terrible. Like, you know, they claim to do all these things. Right.
So there does need to be honest conversations because not every customer is for us.
(28:37):
Right. That's what makes the world go round. I mean, we have over 600,
plenty of testimonials. It runs across the different verticals and sizes and global and local.
But again, there's specific reasons that they'll purchase a leeshan.
There's other specific reasons they'll purchase a competitor that they may deem
is less expensive. And you can get into all those nuances, right?
(28:59):
But at the end of the day, you want people to walk away saying they did the
right thing. And maybe it's not right now.
Maybe it's sometime in the future because that tends to be what happens, right? Right.
And we see it often with some competitors where they're buying the Cadillac.
It's not successful. It's fallen down.
Everyone's got a bad taste in their mouth. And then you got to start all over
(29:22):
again and recreate that excitement and that fervor of, look what I'm bringing to you now.
This one, I promise, is going to be successful.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I kind of make the analogy of giving my six-year-old
the keys to my car when she can't ride her bike without training wheels.
Like, why would I do that?
(29:43):
Right. I fundamentally believe that you want to sell value and deliver something
that brings an end result.
And when you do those things well, inevitably you will grow into something as
opposed to these big bang.
(30:03):
And And sometimes they happen and sometimes they make sense,
but you want to understand what is going to get that customer to buy and to
be successful with that purchase.
I coach my partners to make good choices because, again, it's your reputation
and our reputation together.
(30:23):
I question when a partner is pushing an all-in solution for any part of an architecture,
especially around data governance. I mean, I look at it and I think there's
a lot of pieces to that data governance puzzle that are actually owned by different parties.
So why would you use one tool to solve for all of it? So I immediately pushed
back and I'm like, you don't have that process identified, right?
(30:44):
So if you go into any company and you ask them like, hey, this has happened.
I was helping a fast growing biopharma. They were looking for a data integration solution.
At first it started off as, well, I just want to put data from all these systems
into this one system. That's where the conversation started. Hearted.
And it ended up being, no, actually, I want a solution that does all these point-to-point
(31:05):
integrations for me across our entire enterprise suite.
First was a data project, and then it became an enterprise IT core.
How do I integrate all these platforms, et cetera? And it was like pulling trees,
trying to get them back to the original vision.
Because once they had that larger need of, well, if we're going to solve this
problem, let's solve all 2,500 problems we have as a company.
(31:28):
And we could do it by buying this one tool. you couldn't get them off of it.
It didn't matter what I said to them.
I consider myself a fairly good consultant and I could not get them off that conversation.
I just could not get them pulled back because once they decided that was going
to be the way that was going to be the way.
And at that point, I literally stepped aside and I said, you know,
if you guys are going to do this, I'm sorry, but we can't help you.
(31:48):
I literally said, we can't help
you because that is like, I know what our success areas are. It's data.
I'm not here to solve your enterprise systems, integration issues.
And I literally was just like, we can't help you with that.
So if that's now the vision of what you're going to go do, you're going to have
to go do it without us. And we exited that conversation.
But I don't think a lot of companies do that. They just sit there and they're
(32:09):
like, well, yeah, we're going to start here. And then the box gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
And they don't tell their client either, I'm out because that's not the box I'm used to working in.
They're not honest about that. They just see the revenue growing.
Or they just want an answer.
So they'll push the client to make a decision with the bigger box.
(32:29):
I think people are still afraid to say no, Sandy.
I think that word as a vendor, so to speak, becomes this scary thing to say,
what are they going to think if I back away?
I think when I was a salesperson and we'd get a blind RFP and you'd have to
go through it, I'd check kind of the timestamp and see if somebody else wrote the RFP.
(32:51):
There were tons of things that you would go through.
And depending on what the ask was, do we have bench people who could respond to it?
Did it make sense to respond to it for an exercise in, you know,
something we could reuse as an asset later?
Or some cases, writing respectful, thanks, but no thanks, because you're missing,
you know, all these key pieces of information, which lead me to believe that
(33:14):
this is not necessarily a legitimate opportunity for us. And we have to spend our time wisely.
And the hope is always that people have a respect for your ability to try to
have an honest conversation, because that's the other thing in this partner
world is I'm a firm believer in transparency and honesty.
(33:34):
It may not be the answer I'm looking to hear or the answer I'm looking to share
with you, but I think it just cements the fact that I want to be seen as a trusted
resource and doing what I say I'm going to do and having that.
Yeah. I remember the first time I heard a leader actually say no to an RFP.
I'm like, but why would you do that?
(33:54):
After years of experience, you see that if you go after the wrong opportunity,
all of those things, stuff that you were talking about, the reputation,
the satisfaction, all of that just goes out the window.
And so, I mean, no is a legitimate answer to give to somebody. Yeah.
I don't like responding to RFPs if you can't speak to the customer client.
(34:16):
Client, I have challenges with that.
Those are ones I don't like responding to.
I think that I also find that, and I've seen many RFPs where they don't know
what they're doing and they just play the RFP horrible.
We had an RFP response that ended up being one of our largest wins ever at the
(34:38):
firm that was poorly written.
When we first got that RFP, I remember thinking to myself, are they looking for software?
This is written like they're looking for software, not consulting services.
I don't understand this. And we therefore decided we're just going to ask a
bunch of questions because we had the opportunity to speak to them on the phone.
So we were like, well, let's just ask them because the feeling was maybe they
(34:58):
don't know what they're asking for.
And we were able to, through the conversation, understand that they had no idea
what they were doing. This was the first time they were going down this path.
They actually didn't have a team that understood the space.
So to us, it was a perfect opportunity because we're like, wow,
wow, we can shape their people, their process, and their technology decisions.
So this is exactly where we want to be with them. And we want it because of
(35:21):
that insight of really thinking through, who are you? Why are you asking these types of questions?
What are you really trying to achieve at the end of the day?
It led us to being able to uncover the true opportunity.
But I, you know, so I'll always start with a little bit of maybe they don't
know what they're doing. Let's have a conversation first and see if we can get to the bottom of it.
But if I don't have clarity after that conversation.
(35:42):
I'm very comfortable saying no. Right.
But you probably gave them insight into your ability and how you strategically
think about things as you're guiding and coaching them.
And then they're in a better position for the future as well.
Right. I'm consistently still amazed at how many customers don't really know
how to even buy software.
They don't know the process. They don't know all the levers that need to be
(36:05):
pulled. They don't necessarily always know the right questions to ask.
Again, the benefits of having an independent partner to help guide them through those pieces.
Or they're lazy and they go to a website that says, here's all the things that
you need to ask about software vendors.
And you grab that, they make that the RFP, and then you get it.
Like, did they download this from a competitor website?
(36:28):
Like, get it. They already decided and they actually have it. They're just lazy.
And probably between the three of us, we've probably seen every situation under
the sun. right, in the course of our careers?
I'm sure we have. I think one of the things that always surprises me,
you know, when our clients are surprised, is around timing.
And they don't really have a great sense of how long it's really going to take
(36:49):
to go from asking the questions to the time that you actually hit go and start implementation.
There's so much that needs to happen in between. And without a partner to guide
you and just working with those various vendors, I think it just becomes a very
tricky situation to navigate.
A lot of open questions of why is this taking so long? What do I need to be
(37:09):
thinking of? Just don't get answered.
Like you're just going transactionally from one vendor to the other.
Or they don't even know how to navigate their own orgs. Oh, wait,
now procurement wants me to get this clearance to security in the CISOs suite.
Now I need to go get funding from three other parts of the organization.
Now I need to go get buy-in for timelines.
What advice do you have for either budding partner leads at software companies
(37:35):
or consulting firms looking to get better at their partnerships?
I think it's find a model that, you know, you admire, right?
Whether it's a technology that you admire or a partner program you admire and
figure out what's making that work.
And there's always going to be nuances because again, some of it's back to the resources that you,
(37:58):
How much marketing dollars do you have, right? How do you want to go to market together, right?
And now we did these roundtables, which I loved the topic of that, right?
It's bringing customers together. It's almost like a mini customer gathering
that allows for dialogue that's open for lessons learned, challenges across the board.
(38:19):
And, you know, again, expanding their own network within other professionals,
right, that they can use as common ground.
We have an ongoing pursuit right now that a customer of ours who speaks for
us regularly met somebody at a CDO show in D.C.
In December, and they developed a relationship.
(38:41):
And she's leaning on him as she's going through her data catalog journey.
Right, and working with Alation.
And that wouldn't have happened if, you know, people didn't come together.
So when I think about those things, it's trying to be creative and not just
leaning on big industry and personal events,
but finding ways to put out content that resonates with people,
(39:03):
that doesn't make them feel skittish about asking questions, right?
And being able to have resources to tap into. to. I think attention spans have gotten shorter.
And so like doing big fat webinars for an hour and taking that time out of people's
days, it probably still happens and I'm sure they can still be successful.
(39:24):
But I think about why is YouTube and TikTok so palatable and popular? You know why?
Because people can consume content that's relevant to them in a very short period of time.
And then if they want to go delve deeper, they may be able to tap into other
things that go from there.
And that's when I think about budding partners, it's like finding ways to meet
(39:45):
people where they are right now.
Yeah, I agree with that. I feel that no one's gonna sign up for one hour webinar
these days. Right. The intent is there.
The intent is there, I'm sure. I see them come across and I'm like,
oh, that looks interesting.
And I get all excited about it. Before I hit that register button,
I think to myself, am I really going to show up to this? Probably not.
Don't register because I don't have time.
(40:07):
Because in this virtual world, our calendars are packed from the moment you
wake up to the moment you're logging off at the end of the day, it's going to be packed.
And any moment you don't have a meeting, you're probably finishing a document
or doing something or getting back to somebody via email or Slack or Teams or whatever it may be.
So yeah, time is precious these days. It's a different world.
(40:30):
We're not sitting at a desk.
We're actually way more, I feel like we're way more productive than we used to be as a society.
And you never shut it off. I mean, that's the reality.
It's very difficult to shut off. The only way to do that is like go somewhere
where you just don't have access, right?
Yeah. I mean, that was me in Yellowstone last week.
There was no cell service. So I knew very little of what was going on back in
(40:54):
the office until basically I got back.
You know what? My mind was clear. Yeah.
I'm going away for a bit. And I am literally, I have to delete the apps off
my phone, which is my plan.
I'm deleting all the work related apps and others off my phone.
And I'm shutting off my computer and I'm not opening, I'm hiding it from like
sight. So I know it's gone and just gone.
(41:16):
Who am I going to drive crazy while you're gone? Who am I driving crazy while you're gone?
I'm still here. I don't have six weeks to take off.
Probably due for a lunch, aren't
we? That's trouble. I just have like one final like partner question.
So, you know, one of the things that as we were building up our capabilities
here at Cervelo that I was really insistent on with our team was to ensure that
(41:40):
we were getting people certified, enabled.
We're really driving commitment on our end.
To say that we're spending the time, we're absorbing everything that elation
can teach us in order to be successful when we go out to the market,
when we start working with clients, implementing, helping with change management, whatever have you.
So that was one of the strategies that I employed. But are there other strategies,
(42:04):
either from the partner side or from the consulting side, that you would say
are really key to ensuring a successful and healthy partnership?
I think that one thing that is very undervalued is field-to-field alignment
and relationship development.
Knowing full well that sales executives or account managers in consulting firms
(42:28):
typically have a book or a bag of things that they're responsible for helping
customers think about and ultimately, quote unquote, sell.
We're not looking for deep knowledge on elation, but the opportunities to whet
the appetite of those prospects in those conversations to tee that up.
And a lot of that comes from rep to rep alignment, right? Is do we like the
(42:51):
same thing? Do we like each other?
Are we the same people? Do we have the same values? Do we sell in the same way?
You know, some people will sell to anybody and drop it all in and not look back.
Others have real conscience.
You're trusting me. I want to to deliver for you. So I think field to field
alignment can be beneficial in building those relationships.
(43:12):
And again, allows for you to potentially speak the same language and show up
together, which again, creates a different experience when it comes to selling a product.
So I think that's certainly one thing, your commitment, you know,
definitely demonstrates those things.
And I think then again, executing, you know, and finding an opportunity or two
that you can then turn into that case study that goes back to our partner had
(43:35):
the strategy and they're seeing it through.
You know, those are things that resonate internally that give you credibility
and build it from there. That's great advice.
Well, again, Stephanie, thank you so much for spending some time with us to
have this conversation.
I love hearing our partner's perspective on what is critical for both of us
to be successful, and that is a joint partnership for our clients.
(43:57):
The reality of the space space is that people move around.
And as you said, people buy from people. And I feel that same way in terms of who you partner with.
I always find that I'm going to have a better relationship with a software company
when the people they throw in front of me are easy to work with and understand
kind of our charge and what we're trying to achieve as a business as well.
(44:19):
So it's been fabulous working with you. And again, great insights.
And thank you for the chat.
Back at you. And thank you for having me as your guest today. This was really fun.
Music.
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