Annie F. Downs: The Cost of Being Everyone’s Bridge to Something Better

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We've been taught everything except how to be human.
Welcome to human school, where remarkable people turn raw,
unfiltered experience into practical wisdom.
I'm Miles Adcox, and this podcast was born from the belief
that you don't graduate from being human, you just get more
honest about the lessons. If you're ready to stop

(00:21):
performing your life and start participating in it, you're in
the right place. This is human school where we
finally learn what matters most.Every now and then you meet
someone who can hold sorrow in one hand and joy in the other
and not let go of either. Annie F Downs is one of these
people. Annie has built a network and

(00:43):
written New York Times bestseller books.
She's launched award-winning podcast.
But what I admire most is your posture.
You don't clean up the mess before you share it.
You honor what stays private, and you let some things stay
personal. And when it's time, you bring
your public voice with integrity.
Always. You call yourself a trusted

(01:04):
bridge, a bridge towards faith, toward community, towards the
next true thing in your story. Today on Human School, we circle
up with my friend Annie F Downs to talk about what it means to
chase joy without defying grief,and why both belong in the same
story. Welcome my friend.
What a kind introduction. Thank you for reading that in

(01:25):
front of me. That is better than I deserve.
But thank you. I really appreciate that.
Kind of hard to keep brief because I could I could go off
the cuff and talk about you for 2 pages worth of.
We've had the luxury of of beingacquaintances and friends and
and by proximity we both move pretty fast.
We don't spend a lot of time together, but to spend time we
do spend together is always justreally.
Fun. We go there every time Yeah.

(01:47):
And I just. I love that about you.
And but I'll start with the bridge coming.
I, I, my team found that. And so you've been saying that
publicly or said that publicly alot.
And I was like, I don't know of a better way to describe what
you've done with your God-given talents, being a great orator,
great communicator, great writer, great storyteller, all
the things good friend. And you see yourself yet as a

(02:10):
bridge. And I'm just curious, why?
Why do you use that metaphor andwhy is it important to you?
I think there's a couple of things that are cool about
bridges. Bridges tend to not go anywhere
unless something tragic happens.Bridges are there and so you can
know if you're trying to cross over something, where to go.
And I just, I, for better or forworse, I'm a little more Gray

(02:31):
than black and white about a lotof things.
I'm a, I'd like to assume that Ican be friends with anybody.
I kind of think if someone says I bet we could be friends, I'm
usually like, I bet so too. And and so because of that, I
tend to think if I knew where you were coming from, I bet I'd
understand. And if you knew where I was

(02:51):
coming from, I bet you'd understand.
And so that's what a bridge does, is a bridge goes if you,
if I understood the journey you were on, I bet I'd get it too.
And and so I've never been great.
Well, there's a lot of things I've ever been great at miles,
but I've never been great at going black and white, except

(03:11):
for me about Jesus. I feel very sure about that
about him. But other than that, I'm kind of
like, let's just figure it out together.
And so when I started writing books and and started that
sounds fun podcast and, and doing the things that I do
traveling and speaking my my mind has always been like, I
think I'm not that interesting, but I have really interesting
things to tell you about. I'm I'm just a normal auntie.

(03:34):
I'm just like everybody else. I'd, you know, made tea this
morning. I just, I'm normal, but but I
know some really interesting people and I have gotten to do
some interesting things. Let me tell you about those.
And so we often say at at work that if people stop with me, we
actually haven't hit our mission.
If people are like, I listen to the podcast just for Annie, then
I'm like, well, then I'm not doing this right.

(03:56):
I actually really want you. What I love is when people stop
me at the airport or restaurant and they say, I have bought so
many books this year because of you or Annie.
I don't have time to go to all the concerts.
You tell us about her. I haven't been able to listen to
all the albums you tell us about.
And I go, great, that means I'vehit my mission.
Or if I've had people say, I used to love your podcast, but
this one time you had a podcaster on and then I started

(04:17):
listening to theirs and I have to tell you, I'm so sorry.
I haven't listened to your podcast in two years.
And I'm like, great. That means I've bridged you
somewhere that actually matteredto you.
So that's why a trusted bridge is really important in our
lives. It it means you sometimes get
walked on and that is just part of what you're signing up for,

(04:37):
but it also means that people crossover to some really
important places and that feels like a real honor.
I was just sitting with another friend who's done this job that
a version that you and I do for 30 plus years.
I said, why haven't you quit? It's hard.
The part, you know, that's the part people don't see the
grieving alone, the the problem solving, the decision making,

(04:58):
the financial. There are so many parts that
people don't see of our public lives that are really hard.
I mean, in the grand scheme of the world, I don't have a hard
life, but I'm currently in a hard version of my life.
And and I said to him, why do you not quit?
He said, well, I know what I'm called to.
And I thought, you know what? That's why I haven't quit
either. I know I'm called to be a
bridge. I can't walk away from this.

(05:19):
I'm not going to walk away from this.
If they quit making podcast, I'mstill going to say, miles, have
you ever met my friend, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm still going to bridge. So I'm not going to walk away
from this because it feels like what I was made for a little
bit. That's so well said.
And I think you have a unique way of I wondered in the early
days when you invited me on yourpodcast years ago and and we've
gotten to sit together a couple times.

(05:40):
And so I started listening to itand listening to you and and
it's at first I thought, well, there's some things I know Annie
for your faith is one of them. You know, you've been a
fantastic representation of whatyou believe and inviting other
people into it in such AI think a beautiful way.
And I thought, well, you probably listen to somebody like
Annie if you really want to ground yourself in your face.
And I'm sure a lot of people do.But when I listened to it, it

(06:02):
was much broader than that. I was like, really?
She's trying to help usher people into life.
I mean, to for life to be more rich and more full.
You just validated that by saying if I lose some listeners
because I've turned them on to something that's going to make
them come alive. Bingo.
Yeah. Part of my part of my mission.
Love that side of the bridge concept.
And then, of course, you beautifully brought it in at the
end there. And you're going to get walked

(06:23):
on sometime. That's it.
Tell you more about that. Why do you think those of us
that put ourselves out there to try to build empathetic
connections between others, ourselves, the world, different
people pulling people together, that just lights us up.
And I fully agree. I think if you, if you find your
calling, it's very difficult to turn away from it.

(06:45):
It's just going to keep calling you back home.
And I've tried, I've tried to move away from it over and over
and over again and it just keepsyanking me and invite me back
in. But it is hard.
And what, what is it that makes I think people that do what we
do maybe a little bit more vulnerable?
I've got a theory and an idea about it, but I'd love to hear
it from. You OK?

(07:05):
Will you answer after I answer, of course, because I want to
learn from you and hear that. I think part of it is, are you
asking what makes us willing or what's the cost to it?
The cost What what? What makes us vulnerable?
Yeah, What makes us vulnerable? You, you framed it as if you're
going to be a bridge, you're going to get walked on
sometimes. Yeah, that's right.
One of the elements it's. Well, even today I put on

(07:26):
Instagram, I, I just finished this four, this book that
journeys with you for 40 days. And I thought, I don't want to
tell people that I didn't get what I wanted at the end of
those 40 days. But so many people don't get
what they want at the end of a 40 day journey, right?
Like, like that is that is the human, human school.
That is, the human experience isthat you hope for something, you
walk towards something you don'talways.

(07:47):
Get it's the honest version of the human experience because I
think people want a solution. I would imagine publishers want
a solution. It's like, what's the the
outcome? You mean you sell the outcome?
And what you're over here sayingis actually I'm selling the
process. Yeah, I listen.
If there's something I learned at On Site in 2018, January of
2018, the most scared week of mylife is, is trust the process is

(08:08):
you got to trust the process. And so I think it sets us up for
the nine people we help by beingvulnerable.
There's one that our vulnerability pushes up against
their pain and the only thing they know to do is to push back.
Jim Crass, who was my small my in my living center program, he
was my counselor leader. And he said to us, everyone's

(08:31):
probably doing the best they canwith what they have.
And I have to say that about people in my personal life.
And I have to say that about people online when they are
unkind or when they take my vulnerability and misunderstand
it or accidentally or purposefully.
I have to go, man, the pain theymust be experiencing that has
nothing to do with me. This must be pretty extreme, I

(08:54):
bet. Here's what I do.
I think about two things. I bet when they were in 3rd
grade they were really cute, andI bet that the third grade
version of them would not say ordo what they just did to me.
And then I think I bet at midnight tonight when they try
to fall asleep, they have a harder time falling asleep than
I do. And that's really sad.
And so those two things help me in that vulnerable moment.

(09:17):
But I think that's why we get pushed back sometimes is because
it isn't that someone genuinely hates me, it is that they are
really their points of pain. Get touched by my points of
vulnerability. So well said.
Why? Why do you think it is?
Well, gosh, there's so much I want to reflect on about what

(09:39):
you just said. I want to pack.
No, no, no, no, no, not at all. I want to, I want to impact
that, but I also want to share my thoughts about it too.
And I'm working on, I'm work shopping it because I really,
I've had such an upfront view ofpublic professions from behind.
More than anyone, I think. Behind the scenes, well, there's
some other people that do what Ido.
People don't even know sometimes.
I've become a little bit more public with it the last few

(09:59):
years, very uncomfortably so. But I've, I've become a little
more public with it. And I do think that to put
yourself out there as a conduit to consume some of the world's
narrative, be able to digest it,decide what might be fruitful
for our own stories, and then toshare with other people's

(10:21):
stories, there's no way some of that doesn't stick.
I mean, in a, in a sense we're, we're saying, OK, we want to
become a vessel for other people.
If we're going to hold a microphone and try to
communicate on other people's behalf, we want to become
vessel. So we're going to download the
world's good stuff and the bad stuff and the pain and we're
going to try to make sense of itand then put it back out in a
narrative. And I think to do that, I really
think a superpower with a lot ofpeople that are great

(10:43):
communicators and or towards andempathizers is there's a
sensitivity that underlays us. I think we're generally
sensitive people, meaning we feel, we feel the world, we feel
people, we feel the room, we feel things, we feel our
audience, we feel our critics and we feel the people that love
us. And I think it's part of it.
And it also makes it very difficult when you do bump into

(11:04):
people's pain and they start to challenge what feels like
progress for us because again, we're we're we're feeling the
room. So our side of the aisles, I
think we're we're hypersensitivepeople.
And yet we're walking into territory where sensitivities
are going to get wildly disruptive in a public format.

(11:24):
Now, why is that? Because I think if you're going
to speak for or on behalf of people, everybody has an
individual story. And there's no way you're not
going to miss. Yeah, there's no way the
narrative that you're sitting ontoday, which by the way is going
to change next year, is going tofit for the hopefully thousands
of people that pay attention to your message.

(11:44):
And so basically, we're invitingit.
We're inviting, we're putting ourselves out there to be wrong
for someone else's version of the story that they're in right
now. If we're talking about a
breakup, it's not going to fit your breakup narrative.
Or it might. And we try our best to be
inclusive and encouraging, but you've got a sensitive people
that are matching sensitive people, which creates a great
recipe for people to create progress out of pain, but it's

(12:08):
also a perfect recipe for peopleto get hurt in the process.
But I'll tell you an interestingthing is we do try to be
inclusive. But we all seeing Taylor Swift
saying, I'm drunk in the back ofa car and I'm driving downtown
going home from the bar, you know, I'm like, I don't want to
keep seeing good chance to keep.That's not my story.
But I feel that and that's her story, right?

(12:30):
And so there is something about being specific with your story
and saying here's exactly what Iexperienced to the point that
it's appropriate with everyone involved because people actually
relate to us telling the truth more than they relate to us,
including everyone. And that's why Taylor is Taylor
is because we we feel the thingsshe says because she's telling

(12:50):
us exactly what the experience is.
And we're going. Now I haven't done that, but I
know what I don't want to keep secrets just to keep you.
I know what that means in my story.
And so I I've struggle with thatin stages and on books and in
conversations with friends, really miles of going like how
much do I want to tell? I want them to feel seen in
their own story. But what actually makes people

(13:11):
feel seen in their story is whenyou tell your deepest one.
And I've written a few books andone of them is called remember
God. And in I am the most specific
about my life and remember God as I've been in any book.
And my agent said, I'm never letting you write a book like
that again because you filleted yourself.
I said I I agree. And I would also not like to do

(13:33):
it just the same again. And what has happened with every
book I've written is the feedback I get is people will
send letters or emails or stop me in public and say, I love
this story in your book. I love that story in your book.
Here's what here's how I connected to your story Miles.
The week after, remember God came out, we started getting
aisles of letters and they were all people telling me their

(13:55):
story. They were not reflecting about
mine. They were going now that I've
read yours, I have to tell you mine.
And it taught me something so unique of like, oh, what people
actually need is is not for me to give them the rah rah.
Here's how everybody can figure this out, but here's how I'm

(14:16):
trying to figure this out. I don't know.
I'm doing the best I can so. That book, and it's this became
an invitation or permission. And it was the most filleted of
me. And, and so I and I think I have
done work on my, I mean, I literally turned that book in my
OK, let me actually do the math.That book came out eight months

(14:39):
after I went to onsite. So I had finished it six months
before I went to onsite. So it literally, so I've
learned. And then since 2018 I have
continued to let the tools that I got at on site lead me and
change me. So I would still do it
differently and I could do it just as well.
I've done it differently in my next book and in the other

(15:01):
things I'll write, but I'm leaning back on that experience
to go. I want people to feel that again
in my life, but I don't have to do it from the place I did that
one. So on one-on-one end, it was, it
was, it was very fruitful to go that deep in the paint and share
your truth in that way for a lotof other people and maybe for
you in some way, because I know you liked it when people were

(15:22):
encouraged. That's part of the what fuels
you, and it encouraged people toown their stories, tell their
stories. But it also came at a cost that
it sounds like you're trying to mitigate.
If I do this again, how do I make sure I protect Annie in the
process? That's right.
How do I protect little Annie inthe process?
How do I protect? How do I protect?
How how do I lay down at night and go?

(15:43):
I gave everything I was meant togive, but nothing more.
And I think with less emotional health, I was willing to give
more. I was willing to give past what
was actually healthy. And now I'm like, I'll go to the
edge and give everything, but I'm learning how to not go
beyond that. And so.
But that's all. I'm curious because I think this

(16:06):
is a conversation that comes up a lot with everyday people
because everyday people aren't writing books and becoming
public to do so. Because in order to accelerate a
message, it requires a little bit of a platform.
And to build a platform, that's how you move product if you're
doing our kind of thing, which is one of the reasons I've hid
from it for so long. And now I'm finally getting

(16:27):
healthy enough to try to give ita swing.
But I think now that the world is online, everybody has a
version of public. If you have one follower on
Instagram, you are a public person.
You're a public person. We see this happen all the time
on Instagram miles where someonewill post something and they
will get on a plane and fly across the country and when they

(16:47):
land, it's gone viral and they had no idea.
Or someone makes a recipe and they go to bed and they wake up
here in Central time zone and the West Coast has found that
recipe and now their thing has gone viral.
You have no idea if the one little thing you do ends up in
front of a million people. So we are every one of us that
are normal people are also public people, if you are online

(17:09):
at all. So, so for everybody that's out
there and whether you're online or not, even if it's just you're
a human trying to figure out what parts of your story should
I share? Because we do know from a
psychological standpoint that inbiological, frankly, that the
science points in the direction of sharing your truth is wildly
beneficial to your overall health and well-being, spiritual

(17:31):
life, emotional life. But often we don't know how to
do it. It's such a clumsy thing to try
to figure out how to do, which is there's a lot of efforts like
mine and excuse me and others that have tried to set up places
for you to come and get familiarwith your truth, the parts that
you've never been able to share.And then and then you go out
from that and say, well, what I do with that, We know

(17:52):
vulnerabilities trending. It's kind of sexy and cool now
to be vulnerable. And I almost think we
overcorrected when it got help where everybody started to be
like, oh, vulnerability sales, let's jump in and be over.
I've done it. You know, I've overshared from
stages and overshared the peopleall in good effort.
I was trying to build a bridge connect, but then you realize
later it's like a little too much because I said from the top

(18:13):
that we're we're sensitive, a lot of creatives or sensitive
people. And the more you put your story
out there, the more it's going to get criticized or and So what
parts need to be sacred? What's the line?
I mean, have you have you found the line?
I feel like every day I get to find the line right.
The longer you do it, the more you can tell when you're getting
close. I, I don't know if you and I

(18:33):
have talked about this, I can't remember if we did, but there's
this spectrum I kind of live on of the, the, the far right end,
if you can picture it, is publiclife.
So all down here is your public life.
Everything you do outside of your house is your public life.
Go in the grocery store, post itonline.
You have a public life. You are seen.
If you got up and got dressed today and left your house, you
got a public life. And then right next to that one

(18:54):
is your personal life. And then it's your private life.
And then it's a secret life. I don't think anybody needs to
have a secret life. I think you can have a secret
life with God where there's things you pray about that other
people don't know. But other than that, you don't
need to have a secret life. There is nothing that someone
could post about me online tomorrow that someone doesn't
know. Now, there's a lot of stuff

(19:15):
everybody doesn't know, but there's not something where
someone posts online and everyone gasped that I could go,
yeah, my mentor Nancy is known for three years.
We're working on it. Or yeah, my counselor knows or
yeah, I worked on that at on site or yeah, my friends know
that. So I don't have a secret life.
I don't bring Oreos in my house without telling my mentor.
And let me tell you why. Because Oreos are the first food

(19:36):
I go to when I'm emotionally eating and when I'm wanting to
feel better. And if I start keeping secrets
on an Oreo level, I'm about 3 secrets from doing something
damaging. And so I know if Nancy knows
about Oreos that I'm way less likely to say yes to any of the
other things because I don't have a secret base.
Does that make sense? And so I don't have a secret

(19:57):
life. The difference between your
private life and your personal life.
My private life is the stuff youand I talked about before we
started this podcast. My private life is stuff that
the public doesn't need to know that I'm allowed to have a
private life. Everyone is.
You're allowed to have friendships, relationships,
conversations, decisions that you don't have to talk about

(20:18):
right now or never have to talk about.
Doesn't make you less interesting.
No, in fact, I tend to find it makes you more interesting that
you are able to know the difference.
The people who can show me that they know how to manage a
private life and a personal lifeamidst their public life, I find
to be the healthiest, most interesting people.
Because if you have a private life, that means you've deemed

(20:39):
some things worthy of personal reflection that don't require
any applause. Now, a personal life for me is
when something has been private and something has been within my
safe relationships and within mypersonal life, or I'll even say
private life with my friends andfamily and I go, ma'am, but

(21:01):
there's a nugget in here that I think I'm ready to share.
There's a nugget in here that may help one person.
There was a or I made a decisionthat people are going to see.
It's time for me to tell them why.
So for example, living in New York part time, that was I made
that decision in January of 2023.

(21:23):
I did not tell. I did not move it from my
private life where I told my management team and my friends
and my family and rented an apartment.
I did all that privately until the end of that summer.
And then I said, hey, here's a personal story for you guys.
I've decided to live part time in Nashville and part time in
New York. It's really personal.
I don't know how it's going to go.
I don't know if I'm going to like it.

(21:43):
I'm trying it for two months andI took that private story and
because it was really personal to me.
It doesn't just go public where now it's public.
Everybody knows. I lived part time in New York.
It was fun, it was terrible, It was all these things.
But it has to work through that system for me.
In part, I'm curious about the, the, because I love this
process, but I'm, I'm curious about this for everybody to be
thinking about because the reason that process is important

(22:06):
to you or would be important to me is the minute I do put it out
there, then I'm going to get everybody's opinion on what they
think about living in New York or not living in New York.
And I may not be, I'd like to form my own own impression, my
own opinion. That's I love when I see public
people do that because it's one of the things that always makes
me sad about people once they become very public, is you lose

(22:27):
a gift that we take for granted when we're not, which is the
ability to make a first impression again.
Wow. Right.
It's one of the saddest things because everyone thinks they
know us. Oh yeah.
We'll never make. About what they've read about
us. Wow, I've never thought about
that. Mile That's one of the reasons I
encourage public people when they have the means, go travel,
go international. Because I was just out there in
Europe with Jelly and Jelly's. There were certain parts of

(22:50):
Europe. He was free again.
We were scootering around the city looking at places and he
was like a kid, a kid again. We can't do that back home now.
And he got to meet people on thestreet and say hello without
them thinking this is who you are and who I know you to be
based on on this. So I, I think there is a part of
us that we should protect because if we let, and I'm

(23:13):
vulnerable to letting other people's opinions influence me
significant recovering codependent to the core.
And I've learned to mitigate that very much with the system
you're using. Although I, I love a system and
you've got it down to a system, but I've the same theory.
It's I've got to hold some things sacred so that I can form
my own expression in my own opinion about those before I let

(23:34):
the world influence it. Yes I am.
I am actively walking through this where I am trying to sort
out what do I think about this decision I want to make and
there are so many other voices that I can't.
I literally said to someone the other day, I'm working hard to
make God happy and my family happy and this dude happy and my

(23:56):
friends happy and I am not happyand I am not happy because I
have no idea what I want. Everyone else knows what they
want from me and they are screaming it at me.
I do not know. And the problem with that is
then even the voice of God, the creator of the universe gets
lumped in where I'm like, well, you too, actually all of you.

(24:16):
Everyone else knows. And if all of you, the one I
want to listen to is God, but you sound just like my mom and
dad. And so I'm not sure what to do
with that. There's codependence coming out
too. It's a little bit like if if
you're in a car with somebody who's got the music up really
loud and you're trying to take acall, yes.
And the noise is so loud here, it's impossible to have a
conversation here. That's.
Exactly right. I see I've been through so many

(24:38):
seasons like that where everyoneelse's influence and opinions
got so loud I couldn't hear my own voice.
That's how I felt Miles. I literally said to Ashley I
liked and I said I have said to multiple people I'd like to go
to sleep for two weeks and wake up and see how y'all are doing.
And then decide if I'm ready to be awake and live my life again
or if I just would like for to go back to sleep for two weeks
and let y'all keep doing whatever healing you need to do.

(24:59):
And and it is because I I had noagency in my own head anymore.
I had totally been enveloped by other people's opinions.
And the problem was I was makinga decision in private that will
become public. So I'm trying to do that thing
of before this becomes public, do I know what I want?
And because people in my privatelife were so loud, I couldn't

(25:22):
even suss out what I wanted. So I said, all of you hush all
of you out. I mean to like very near people.
I said, I need you to not tell me what you think about this
anymore until I ask. And I'll tell you the other
thing that's changed about me, Miles, is walking this process
of making decisions. And I mean, this is the epitome
right now of the class I'm in inhuman school is how in the world

(25:45):
do you make decisions independently, with wisdom and
with help? But in the long run, it's my
life. And how do you do that?
And the problem has been for me,when something's going to work
its way all the way out to the public world, how do I make this
decision and how do I not be codependent?
How do I not make sure I'm making everyone else happy at

(26:09):
the now the dream for you and me.
I want thereabouts to be happy and maybe happy.
Wouldn't that be unbelievable ifeveryone could just get what
they want, including me? That's what I've been trying to
do and it has made my head feel.I mean I had a migraine 2 weeks
ago that I couldn't get out of my bed for two days and I said

(26:29):
to my team, I was like, my brainis malfunctioning because of
this. I am telling you my brain is
malfunctioning. Everyone has to stop giving me
opinions. Well, let's talk, let's unpack
that for a minute because I think a lot of people could
relate to, especially those thatget into service based roles.
And that's a much broader camp than you might think, you might
think therapist, author, pastor,people that kind of we're in

(26:51):
service to others. I mean, there's a whole
leadership thought school aroundservice based leadership and the
whole concept is put others first, put others 1st.
And, and I think there's a time where that's really valid, where
I think we need to do that. I think so many of us, whether
you're a teacher, anything you're drawn to when it comes to
pouring into others, it's such anoble pursuit and a profession.

(27:12):
I mean, I'm a service based guy.I chose that profession, but
that profession has come at a cost when I neglected myself in
the process. And I've, and I'm not, I'm not
big on overcorrected at times where it's like you got to put
yourself first always in all themetaphors, put the airplane mask
on first before you try to save the world.
And there's been times where I've needed to overplay that
car. But I think there's a just, it's

(27:32):
a dance. There's a better balance.
There's going to be time you're going out more than you're
coming in. But if you go down that lane too
far, it 100% is going to come ata cost.
And a lot of people don't realize it's first an emotional
cost, but then the emotional cost can turn physical like
migraines. I mean, I've had, I literally
had autoimmune challenges for over a decade that were keeping

(27:54):
me sick and I was having a difficult time digesting food
and, and I felt like, OK, I've been in the psychology space for
20 years, but anybody know? I mean, I'm in the stress
business. You guys know stress.
I know stress. And because that's the first
thing a lot of people would say is like, have you thought about
stress? You're like, yeah, full time for
my job. Think about that every day,
every minute of every day. And I've worked through it,
worked through, worked through it.
So I really don't think it's it.I think it's this, this and

(28:15):
this. And it turns out it was both.
It was there was another layer of stress I needed to take a
look at, learn to mitigate in a new season.
It didn't matter. The tools it worked five years
ago were needed a different set of tools for today.
And amazing as I paid attention to, you know, functional
medicine and other things that gave me solutions as well.
But it wasn't just a bag of supplements.
It got my stomach back in order.It was also getting my nervous

(28:38):
system regulated. And suddenly both of them, it's
like. Yes, yeah, that is how I felt
this at live taping. I'm a week into having quiet and
I was at the chiropractor this morning.
I said everything feels better. It doesn't mean I want to keep
the people out that are not giving me opinions right now,
but I had to. Recharge reset.

(29:00):
Yes, and just give myself give my brain a break almost to
remind myself, Miles. I mean, and this is whether
you're a public person or or not, there are times we just
need to remind ourselves you cando this.
You've heard all of these opinions.
I know you actually can do this.You have the tools you need.
Just get everyone else quiet fora second and sit with you and

(29:21):
God, and you've got all the tools you need.
I mean, even Jim. Jim's coming to town in a couple
of weeks and he was texting me and we were making plans and I
was like, I'm kind of drowning. And he was like, you can call me
anytime. And I thought, Jim is the voice.
Jim is one of the voices that I can invite in.
And even that I said, can I haveanother week?
I was like, I just need one moreweek.
And Jim is the wisest, kindest man I know.
He would not tell me anything except the right thing.

(29:44):
And I still was like, I, I've put the mask on myself and I'm
taking a nap. I'm not rescuing anyone else for
just a minute because I just, I,I had to calm my body and my
brain. I got, you know, when I've
gotten really busy in certain seasons and people ask something
of me, something really kind like, you know, I'd love to pick

(30:05):
your brain. I I'll feel it as a threat.
Weirdly, even from close friends.
I'm like, and in your mind, you start say, do they not know how
busy I am? They don't know what all I've
got going on. Do you know, I've got and
that's, that's always a flag forme.
It's like, oh, I've dehumanized myself a little bit.
I've turned myself into a product here.
And what would it be like to hear that as a kind invitation?

(30:27):
Doesn't mean I, I can certainly say not right now.
I'm too consumed. I even did that when we started,
we were sitting down and I was thinking, OK, I'm launching this
new podcast. You're a queen of the podcast
where you got a whole network ofpodcasts.
I mean, you've elevated all kinds of voices, people.
I love a lot of my friends and built this successful thing.
The first thing I'd love to havecoffee with you and pick your
prank. So with the rest of the world.

(30:48):
No, that's not true. And you know, I would I we are
doing it so. Don't you?
I know, I know you would, but it's sometimes the human to
human connection and I've alwaysfelt that from you.
It's like forget, we're not these public people that aren't
even at the end of the day, we're humans trying to connect
and figure out life bumping off the guardrails.
And I think that's what makes you so approachable.
There was one thing you said when you're walking us through

(31:09):
that framework that you use, I don't want to skip over 'cause I
think there was a nugget there. I meant to go back there
earlier, which was the secret part.
And because I, you know, I've been in the counseling space for
a long time, we've got all thesecliche sayings like your, you
know, your secrets keep you sickand, and, and there's some truth

(31:29):
to all of that. It's a kind of a recovery
slogan. And we have even facilitated
ways to invite safely invite secrets out of people.
We do a secret ceremony where there's a, and I won't give it
fully away, but it involves kindof writing things you've never
told anybody down where it's a fire ceremony and you're sharing
with people you never shared. And we actually burn it just to
signify that it, it, that's all you need to do.

(31:52):
And the, the science is super clear that offloading things,
that they call it emotional blunting in a way where we
withhold the hard parts of our story to try to experience only
the good parts. And what we know is that if you
dull all the hard parts, you're also going to dull the joy.
Yes, so it's important to to do both, but I think there's

(32:15):
context because there's that's what shocks me is is having seen
thousands of people over the years, they're sitting on some
major, major secrets and I've never seen anybody that has not
said it for the first time that realized why did I sit on.
That every time, Miles. Same for me when I was working
through the secret pain of my past and all that kind of stuff.

(32:37):
And you said a lot of people go,OK, you're like, that's it,
that's it. Now there are also people
listening who have secrets that are going to have serious
consequences when they bring of course, and also get it out, get
the consequence, start moving forward.
The minute it's out, the clock starts fresh and now you've got
the rest of your life as a not secret keeping person.

(32:58):
Great, that's what you want. I mean, the freedom, the freedom
between when I thought if anyonefinds out that I struggle with
this or if anyone finds out thatI did that, then I lose all of
this, whatever the this and thatare.
The minute that goes away, you kind of go, well, I actually can
run 20 miles an hour faster because now I'm not worried
about any of that. Are there consequences always.

(33:20):
And do I have learning and growing to do?
Yeah. But man, people who live without
secrets, you're psyched. Right, let's run and you there.
It's funny how life plays its trick on us sometimes That tells
us the more influence that you you get.
An influence doesn't have to be a public thing.
You can be influence in your family, influence in your friend
circle. You're the person everybody goes
to. You're the person people looks

(33:42):
up to for this thing and they have no idea you're sitting on
this thing that would compromiseyour position or that perception
of you. I mean, I'll give you a real
example. I don't even know the timeline.
I think I blacked out and I don't remember, but I was well
into onsite and becoming quietlybecoming the face of this
initiative that I just loved andit helped build.

(34:02):
And it represented things like vulnerability, healthy
relationships. And I got in a really bad
relation, a really unhealthy relationship.
Armed with all the tools representing this initiative
that ushered people in a healthyrelationships.
And there's no way as an entrepreneur, I can't think.
Uh oh, if this, if I share this or if this is exposed, will

(34:23):
people trust it? I have anything to offer.
And so I said on that longer than I need to.
I was like, oh, that one second,I can't have fallen into this
trap. Absolutely I can.
And when I, and you've always been great about this too.
But when I started sharing aboutit in real time, when it was
appropriate, when I had gotten into the healing phase of it,
people trusted me more. Oh my gosh, you're a human.

(34:44):
You're normal. I'm not coming to see an expert.
I'm coming to see a guide. Yes, that's one of the reasons
even today on Instagram I postedthat I've been doing this prayer
journey for 40 days and didn't get what I wanted 'cause I'm
like, hey, guess what? I'm just like you.
I am just like we are all the same in the long run.
And so the problem is people who, and this is the only reason
I know is I sat in the seat of when you keep secrets, you think

(35:09):
nobody's like me. No one would get this.
And I remember my first counselor saying, you're not
going to say anything to me thatI haven't heard before.
And I said, I thought, buckle up.
I'm going to sure try. You know, I was like, if I'm
doing this, I'm going to absolutely try.
And then everything I'd say to her, I thought about this.
I wondered about this. She's like, yeah, you're I heard
that twice today. So I I made a phone call this

(35:30):
week to a mentor. I said, I cannot believe this is
going on ABC. And he goes, would it help you
to know that I've gotten four ofthese phone calls this week?
I said yes, that helps me so much.
And I had sat on calling him forthree days.
So I thought this is kind of embarrassing to call him about a
breakup. I'm embarrassed to call him
about a breakup. I don't want you know.
And he said the situations are not the same.

(35:52):
But the problem you're the I've had four other calls about this
problem this week. You should know that.
Now, had I kept the lie in my head that said you're different,
no one will understand. You shouldn't tell anybody even
this week, I wouldn't have gotten the piece of like I'm not
alone in this. Other people know what this
feels like. And so the in a safe community

(36:14):
with a safe mentor, leader or friend or parent, the me too
moment of I can tell my secret. I can tell the thing I'm
struggling with. I can't.
Do you have time? I'll give you another example.
I was 18. I was at a retreat at, I went to
University of Georgia. I was real involved in the
Wesley Foundation. We had go dogs.

(36:36):
Come on. This is a big Saturday too.
Every Saturday. I went to University of
Tennessee for those. You aren't listening.
So we got a big robbery in Kneeland.
Stadium Street. I can't wait.
I mean, I'm not going in Oxford.Are you going?
No, I wish I would have though. I, you know, I just like
watching at home at this point. Maybe me being old, but I'm
like, I can get to the bathroom.I don't have to deal with the
traffic. I can turn it off if I start
crying. So I, I, I love the dogs, But so

(36:57):
I went to Georgia real involved in the Wesley Foundation, which
is the method of student ministry.
And we're on a retreat and I'm 18 and I have never said out
loud that I've looked at pornography ever.
I mean, because at the time, what I was being taught or what
was caught was that's a boy problem, not a girl problem.
So that was raising all sorts offlags in my head.

(37:19):
It's a sexual sin, which is the,you know, whoops a Daisy, right?
And especially in church culture.
Especially in the. 90s right? And I didn't know anybody else
and I'm 18 and we're on a retreat and we're sitting,
there's like 5 girls sitting around and one of the seniors
says, you know something I've dealt with my whole life is

(37:41):
pornography. And I'm like, and it's a girl
and I'm like what? Wow.
Me too. Immediately.
Immediately I just thought it felt I think what she thought
was her most vulnerable moment felt like a life preserver to me
in an ocean that I was drowning in because she because all of a
sudden I was like, I'm allowed to say that I so this isn't like

(38:04):
the thing I wasn't supposed to look at or do in my life.
And then suddenly there's freedom to say I have a problem.
Like I don't, I don't like this.I don't like the way this feels.
I don't know how that how it started is really sad.
And I don't want to talk about that either.
And I mean, I would to you, but at the time when I'm 18 and, and

(38:25):
I'm like, and then you start thehealing process and then you
start to understand what you're really looking for and what the
why am I running to that when, when I'm sad or why am I running
to Oreos when I'm sad or why am I, you know, and then I have
then I am able to build healthy responses to my needs.
Because I finally said out loud that this one little thing,
little thing, it wasn't a littlething, but this one thing that

(38:47):
made me feel like an alien in mylife.
I was not an alien. There were people around me who
knew exactly what I was going through.
And then when I'm 45, I tell Nancy when I bring Oreos in my
house because when I was 18, thegirl sat across from me and
said, I've struggled with this and gave me a chance to say me,
too. John Acuff calls it the gift of

(39:09):
going second because she gave methe gift of going 2nd 30 years
ago. I'm terrible at math 27 years
ago. I have a tool now that keeps me
being who I want to be. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think, and if you're out
there and you're sitting on secrets, I don't want you to
we've, we've clearly made a casefor the importance of it.

(39:31):
And you've gotten some great examples of when done well, it
can be life changing. And we also know why people sit
on secrets, which is usually there's a pretty significant
shame cloud. There's almost like a veil of,
of shame, which is a pretty tough emotion to navigate.
And when you peek your head out,I would say the majority of

(39:53):
people don't get the luxury of that response.
Majority of people don't get a me too moment, which is one of
the most healing things you can ever do.
We do a lot of really cool clinical work in in our setting
and we try to make it as creative as possible.
So we try to make it what we call it's an umbrella service we
call experience. We try to make stories come
alive and do a lot of showing and different things and versus

(40:14):
just just cognitively talking. But the most and and to watch it
is kind of intrigue. It's kind of interesting.
It's like literally you're. You're well, one of the, the
founders of one of those modalities tripped into it in
the Greek theater because there was something going on in the
town where there was a strike and the papers weren't running.

(40:35):
And so he realized that in orderfor people to get the news, we
could go to the theater and actually role play the the news.
And so when they started role-playing the news, they
realized it was cathartic for people to watch it versus read
it, that they were like emoting on bad news because people were
playing it out. And suddenly they created a
whole therapeutic model that ended up being one of the ones
that we adopted. But often that's the one you see

(40:57):
that it's like, wow. But the magic where you really
rewire your your neural nuts, I believe is what happens right
after that. Because as soon as you get
through with the insider speak, we often call it a piece of
work. Like you might walk into a piece
of work with something you want to work out in your life, you
want to do more of or less of orchange.
And you bring some people in to figure out, you do pattern

(41:18):
recognition, find out what is this?
Where does it sit? Have a couple conversations and
then you're kind of like, OK, well, that felt good.
But after that, you get in a circle with other people that
just witnessed it and they get to have that me too moment
because we say, hey, the only thing that we'd like for you to
not do in the circle is give advice.
Yes, what we'd love for you to do is be able to share your

(41:39):
experience, strength and hope with what you just experienced.
And so much so you sometimes youhave to give people a playbook
because we're so prone to use advice is I just use I
statements, you know, just what I felt, what I saw, what I
related to. And I think that little, what we
call that little feedback or validation circle is the most
powerful part of the work. And you got it when you were 18.
I've had lots of moments like that.

(42:00):
But there's a lot of well intended people that when you go
to them immediately, they're going to give you advice instead
of empathy, instead of love, They're going to give you a
playbook. And I don't want to over
criticize. I think some people, it's OK.
Some people that may be what they need, but for the most
part, I'd say this to the peopleon the receiving end and on the
delivery end, if there's any wayyou can step back in that moment

(42:22):
and withhold what it is, you know, let's say she comes to you
and you're five years down the road of having recovered or
dealt with that challenge, Wouldyou have been more prone to say,
let me tell you what I did? Oh, 100%.
Here's the steps you want out. Here's the steps.
And that is not always helpful. It's certainly not as helpful in
the first conversation as you think it is.

(42:42):
Well, so I'm, I don't have the statistic and I'm hesitant to
throw out a guess, but, but, butI am going to speculate because
I'm going to say, having set with thousands of people,
upwards of 90% of the people whoshare a secret for the first
time in our settings tried yearsbefore and someone tried to tell
them what they need to do about it and they never told another

(43:04):
person. So it's that I think it's that
important to realize that shame is a real emotion.
I think about it and, and, and the fact that I know that
doesn't change my ability to putshame into somebody else's
story. I still can add shame to
people's story. The coolest part about it is I
catch it so much sooner now and I can repair it, but I, I, I

(43:28):
compare it to like sitting in a A and we, we've got one of these
in our backyard. It's like a kids Playhouse.
Everything's smaller. So I can't stand up in the
Playhouse. The chairs are really small and
you're sitting in this little abbreviated version.
I sometimes feel like that's what shame feels like.
It's like a ceiling above you that you can function in there,
but you can't really express yourself for yourself.
And then but you got to rememberas you got in there some way,

(43:50):
and you still want to hold the key to the door and be able to
step back out and be able to lift your shame ceiling, lift
the veil a little bit. But 2-2 days ago I come home
since you you've invited me in the story since you just shared
a great story and my wife and myson are sitting on the the front
porch. Not had one of those long
stressful days had my my work. I still have my work all over

(44:13):
me, you know, physically and, and metaphorically.
And I walked into a pretty tenseconversation and it was, my son
had said a few things that felt not great to my wife and they
were kind of talking about it. And so she wanted to report that
out to me. And immediately I was

(44:34):
frustrated. I was hungry, I was tired.
I felt, I felt like I was going to go home and be received and
get to eat and do things. And suddenly I walked into a
problem. I've been solving problems all
day. So my my face changed and I went
towards frustration and anger about and she immediately said
here's here's what he said And Iand I, it was a look I gave him

(44:57):
just like, how dare you? How could you and I, what you
know what he said? I didn't say that.
Wow, I didn't say that. And he repeated it.
And what's the one thing any parent I think would want or any
relationship, any, anybody wouldwant, the person that you can
love the most to, to be able to do is have the freedom to tell
you the truth. If anybody, I don't want to

(45:19):
hide, it's my kids. We all hope our kids will talk
to us and tell us all the things.
And I realize I influenced that response just with a look, just
because I had an emotion and gotangry and frustrated with what
he did. And so he didn't feel safe to be
able to tell me he did it. But the good thing is, is I got
to I got to back out of that repair, get down on his level
and invite him into a different conversation.

(45:40):
And on my miss on the response. And I know I'm getting granular
on this, but I'm glad you said it because I think it's such an
important topic that everybody sits on that.
Here's the why and here's the don't, because you said you've
had to tell your people recently.
You had to influence them to sayI just need to say something.
I don't need you to do anything about it.

(46:01):
You can do that too. If you're listening out there,
there is a person that will listen without fixing.
And that is the bridge that's going to take you into feeling
free and to sharing the parts your stories that are hard to
look at. I think so often when we deal
with dishonesty and someone elselike you're talking about with
your son, that moment of like I didn't say that it you go.

(46:21):
I find if someone pushes back with dishonesty, there may be
something about my approach thatmade them feel like they
couldn't tell me the truth. Maybe not every time, maybe
there are people who are just diabolical liars, but often when
people aren't telling the truth.This is me.
I I would not tell the truth when I was younger if I felt let

(46:43):
me think of how how I can say this.
I would lie when I felt like what mattered most was
impressing the people. Like I would lose their love or
I would lose their favor. Makes total sense.
Total sense. That's the one thing you need in
the world as a young person is to feel like you're loved and
accepted and safe. And so when I.
When that's challenged, you go to survival.

(47:04):
That's exactly right. And you go, I will do whatever
it takes to be able to still be in my body here.
And so when I've experienced as an adult people not telling me
the truth, when I've gotten awayfrom the moment it happened, I
go, Oh, man, I wish I could go. I wish I could go back and do my
part again. And I was the one who was lied

(47:25):
to. I wish I could go back and do my
part again with what I know now,which we can't, but I but it
gives me a chance next time to go.
Let me get on your level. Not that another adult.
I need to Crouch down and go. You all right, babe?
You know, but to go, man, how can I walk into this where I'm
not contributing any shame, but I'm standing true in who I am,

(47:51):
but inviting them to stand true and who they are too.
I think that is an important thing you just told us because
so often with secrets, what we see when someone else invites us
in is it takes a minute for themto tell us the whole truth,
right? Because they're going, I'm going
to give you an appetizer and seeif you're still here.
And if you're still here, I'll bring out the main course.

(48:12):
And oftentimes I receive the appetizer as they aren't telling
the full truth. They're just they've maybe never
been safe anywhere. They maybe are trying with me.
I think about the younger women in my life that I meet with and
I think man, she she's trying totell me the whole truth and I
can go, is that like what else happened?
And then it just rolls. It rolls.

(48:33):
If they if the appetizer is received with love, you end up
getting the full story. If the attempt the appetizer is
not, it's what you said, it's the night, it's the people who
walk away and then they get to an on site environment and
they're able to. I tried to tell this one other
time and it wasn't received. And I've got to get this out of
my body because I bet of the 90%of all the people who've ever

(48:54):
had a secret, which is all of us, 100% of us feel some degree
of better when it's out of our body the first time, right?
I would. Think so?
100% for me every single time. You can see people like
physiologically change. I mean, you see their whole body
change when they're on the back end of having offloaded some
stuff that doesn't belong to them and reminded that they're

(49:15):
still loved with who they are, flaws and all.
And we do that with each other. We do a validation with this
conversation. I mean, because, you know, doing
it well is not messing up. I could give you 100 examples of
this past two weeks because it'sthat's the other things.
When you get a little bit of self-awareness, self analysis,
you're going to see things in your story more like laser

(49:38):
focus. And it is the coolest tool in
the world because I used to see it when I saw a quote the other
day that our kids first bully is9 times or 10 times more likely
to be an unhealed parent than itis somebody at school.
My friend Melanie Shenko on her book wrote.
My Mom was my first mean girl. And and you may not think, well,

(50:00):
I don't have that in my body at all, But the reality is, is
every micro expression how you're moving, but to go into
that as a parent, we're in a relationship or in leadership
and think, oh man, you mean I'vegot to be that aware that.
Perfect all the. Time, forget about it.
It's not about the rib, it's about the repair.
I'll say that 100 times on on this show because it's about
being able to take a step back and have the grace on yourself

(50:21):
to be like, yeah, I screwed thatone up and used to that would
eat my lunch and I thought I'm aterrible dad.
Not have gone into a hole for a week and I don't know, I'm like,
oh man, I'm so glad I caught that.
Yes, let's move on. Let's figure it out.
The repair is probably going to be more educational for him than
it would have been if I got it right the first.
Time, that's exactly right. And that is the nature of
humans. That is what we're doing of
going even as I'm telling you I'm going.

(50:41):
I wish I could do this one scenario again and be different.
And then I go Well, luckily withthat friend, I've gotten to sit
again and keep talking and I have gotten to change my
posture. And next time this is this is
what is great and terrible aboutbeing a person is we keep having
to do things for the first time we've never done before.
Just go. I've never, I mean, I cannot

(51:03):
tell you how many times in the last six months I've said to a
friend or the person I was dating or my family, I've never
done this before. So I'm going to do the best I
can today. But I've I've, I need you to
hear me say I've never done thisbefore.
Next time I run into any of those experiences, at least I've
done them before. And I go, man, I didn't like
when that thing happened, but last time I was quick to this or

(51:24):
I was too slow to do this and I'm going to do that better.
And then the next day, my gosh, here's the thing I've never done
before. It's just the nature of the
thing. Miles is the only way we keep
doing this as if we keep doing this.
And the only way we grow is if we have new experiences and new
experiences bring us opportunityto bring our wisdom from other
experiences, but also grace of I've never done this before.

(51:45):
And I, I think parents, I have some parent friends who do this
really beautifully where they say to their oldest, I'm really
new at this. I'm as new at being a parent as
you are being a kid. And so I've never had a fifth
grader before or I've never had a kindergartner before.
I've never had a junior in high school before.
I've got wisdom from being a human longer than you.
So I've got some ideas and we'regoing to work this out together,

(52:08):
but I've never done this before either.
And I think, man, when parents say this is new for me, what a
gift to the child, whether the child is 45 or the child is 12,
so. Well said.
I'm I'm curious about you to watch where you started and what
you continue to build, build, build.
I'd love to ask you some questions on the professional

(52:29):
side about what you found. But before we get there, I'm,
I'm kind of interested in OK. You work in the currency of
connection, communication, faith.
You represent a lot of things that can improve the human
experience and improve humanity through your writing, through
your, your podcasting, through your everything that you're up
to. Thank you.

(52:51):
Has that added value and benefitto your personal life, and if
so, how? Or has it cost us more than it's
added? I don't know, right?
I don't know. I will both.
But I mean, my honest answer today is I'm like, I'm not sure
it's added to my personal life. I think maybe what has happened

(53:16):
is that that currency of connection feels more sacred on
a Tuesday than it does on a Saturday evening on a stage,
right. Like I, I think, I think I have
learned what is sacred and everything is can be sacred.
I think everything can be sacred.
But maybe what I've learned evenbetter said as I'm thinking

(53:41):
about this miles is maybe what I've learned is what is sacred
to me and, and the things that Igo.
Oh, I, I just, I used to think, I can't wait to write a book
about getting married. And then I fell in love and I
thought, I'm never telling anyone any of this.
This is so much more sacred thanI ever imagined.

(54:03):
And so that's to me, suddenly this thing that I thought was
going to be a connection point became this like, I want no one.
I mean, I want my community involved.
I'm not trying to not be wise. I want to hide this because it
is the most sacred thing I've ever done and the most fun and

(54:24):
and so that's what I'm learning.How do you mean protect?
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I, I, yes.
For our friends that aren't watching, I'm like cupping my
hands like I'm holding a mouse. You know, that's how I felt is I
was like, I want to hold. This and I want to protect that
because. Yes, I want to protect it
because it is the IT is more special than anything else I've

(54:45):
ever done and so maybe it works its way from private to personal
to public. But as it was happening, I
thought no little mouse stay. Here I've been thinking the same
way about parenting. I've been dropping in more
stories about parenting, but it makes it would have made such
natural sense that I waited late.

(55:07):
I'm an older first time dad. I've been learning human hacks
on how to be a better human for a long time and I was like, well
maybe the next is parenting. I'll talk about parenting, but
I'm like, I want to learn this and I want to experience this.
I don't want to be a parenting expert.
First of all, I think I would suck at it, but I've got stories
I want to share and I'll share those.
Most of the time it's about my blooper reel, how I've messed it

(55:28):
up. But there's something sacred
that is giving me life that I feel like I desperately need.
And the minute I commoditize it,then I lose a little bit of it.
The personal benefit, I think it's really wisely because I
could probably debate you on just what I've acknowled, what
I've witnessed it as your friend, and then in this

(55:50):
conversation we've had, like yousaid, boop, boop, all these
different awarenesses and Nuggets.
I'm like, well, that's benefiting you more than you
think if you're navigating life with the tools in this way.
But it's important people to hear that often.
If we don't have the evidence that we're looking for, it's
tough to realize the progress that we're making.
Wow, because if, if my contentment and happiness

(56:11):
anchors on when these things getchecked off, that's when I
realized these tools did their job.
And until then, they might not be optimizing my life.
But I really believe that something is always at work when
we're in the midst of of progressing and we're trying to
be better human beings. And you, you do that as good,
good as anybody you do, you do it as an open book.

(56:32):
A lot of times in in the conversations we're we nerd out
on these. Conversations every time we've.
Done it we've always been like, why does this work?
How does that work? Wait, what do you mean oh that
oh, that. And that's one of the reasons
I've always been drawn to you and and love talking to you.
But I genuinely have always thought, OK, how is it some of

(56:54):
the best people in the world? Like who I believe, like you
won't find a better human being.Then I'm fanning out.
But it's it's for good 'cause not because you're professional
athletes. I think those are wildly cool
too. And I respect it.
A lot of stuff you've done, I aspire to do.
But it's because of who who I know you to be.
I'm fanning out on the person ofAnnie, the person behind Annie F

(57:14):
Downs. But Annie is just a salt of the
earth. Great human, always known that.
And I think that story sometimesdoesn't always get enough
airtime. The person behind the the the
mic, the person behind the product.
I think you've done a pretty good job integrating it and I'm
glad we're asking the question because I've asked this question

(57:35):
a million times. It's it's usually on the days
when I'm like, I think I want tobe a barista today.
Truly. Or a farmer or something.
I want to cut fabric at that fabric store in 100 in 100 oaks.
That sounds fun. Right, the one right by Baja
burrito. What about I'm like I just would
love to like hear what? So I know I.
Have no Tell me about the fabric.
Why is that entry? What do you like about the

(57:55):
fabric? You like that stuff?
No, I don't know how to make anything, but I think what a
peaceful place people come in and they just want to make a
skirt or they just want to make a blanket for their baby.
And all I got to do is just cut things like a yard and hand it
back. And then they leave.
And it feels so being a barista,like you're saying there is a
peaceful job we both dream of. That is not the job we either

(58:17):
either of us have chosen so. Sorry to interrupt.
No, you didn't interrupt becauseI think it's important part is
that I often think why am I drawn to certain tasks like
that? And I think our a lot of jobs
will you'll never you'll never finish your to do this.
That's right, Ever. Especially if you're a dreamer,
a serial entrepreneur, which I know both of us share that
comment too. Because as soon as I'm done with

(58:38):
my actual list, now I get to do the list that I can't even have
time to write down yet. That's right, yeah.
I'm never going to, but I like to.
I like to get on a tractor and cut grass.
Yeah. And why?
Probably similar to the reason you're dreaming about.
Because what do we need? Is it seamstress?
We need to figure out what the current.
Oh yeah, I need to find well, not see.
I don't know how to sell. I just want to be a cutter
professional fabric. Cutter, I just want to cut what?

(58:58):
Does anybody know what that would be called?
It's not a real it's. Like a designer or a something.
You're giving me way too much credit.
It is a Taylor Taylor. Maybe that could be fun.
I am a fabric connoisseur. But when when I finish a strip
of grass, I look behind me and it's something satisfactory

(59:20):
about being done with something.It's why math is great.
It's why puzzles are great, because there is going to be a
finish that is a right answer and very often in the rest of
our classes of human school. There's not a right answer.
And so I think we're dreaming about something that we think we
don't have and it's going to give us some type of peace and
contentment. And, and, and sometimes if we do

(59:43):
that, I think it's challenging because we, we know we've
followed the science too. You know, gratitude is probably
the best, some of the best management you can prescribe.
And we know that if you don't feel the hard parts of your
story, you probably won't be as likely to feel the good parts.
But sometimes it's tough to identify the good parts if we're
moving at the pace that we move.How do you handle pace?
How do you handle the pressure? Such a fast-paced person.

(01:00:07):
I make decisions fast. I drive too fast.
I'm just a I'm built fast. So what my my decision has to be
in most things go a little bit slower than you want to and but
that is taking work, right. I mean, I'm, I'm not sitting
here at 25 telling you this. I'm sitting here at 45 telling

(01:00:28):
you this going like, Hey, miles,I figured out about a year ago
that I need to go slower that that my want speed is not always
the right speed. And so there are a lot of my
friends who their want speed is also not the right speed because
they need to move a little bit faster.
They need to make decisions a little faster.
They need to, you know, narrow down and and actually do the

(01:00:50):
thing. And I am ready fire aim and and
so for me, a a lot of it comes back to there's wisdom in making
slower choices and things turn out better if I will go just
that much slower than I thought.I mean, just it does not have to
be. I do not have to become a turtle

(01:01:12):
to make a good decision, particularly professionally.
I can sit in a meeting. We just did this for two days.
Our whole company sat around ourtable for two full days and
planned out 2026 in the first half of 27.
Now what we do? Keep planned a four year.
Ahead Well. That gives.
Me exactly the way we planned it, but it does kind of let us
go. When do we want a book to come
out and when do we what do we want to talk about on the
podcast and how much do I want to travel?

(01:01:34):
Because, and you know this from your speaking there, you're
getting 10 to 12 months advance ask over the event.
And so I'm kind of going like, what do I want next summer and
what do I want next Christmas? That kind of thing.
I can sit the table and be like,and I can have all the answers
and then what I'm actually is a dictator.
I am not a collaborator with my team.

(01:01:56):
And so professionally, it's really important for me to slow
down because that's when I listen and often there's a
better idea at the table than myown.
And then because I am the boss at the end, I get to go, thank
you, thank you, thank you. And here's what we're doing.
The same is true in my personal life, in my private life where I
can make a real fast decision myself.
And in the end, it is my life and I will make the decision I

(01:02:18):
want to make in the end, on the way to the end, if I will go a
little bit slower, there is healing on the way.
There is help along the way, andI still get to make the decision
I want to make. But I've got help because I went
just a little bit slower and so that's kind of how I have found
it. Are you naturally fast-paced or
are you naturally slower paced? A.

(01:02:38):
Little bit of both. I'm a weird anomaly of like my,
I can move slow. But yeah, typically I'm, I lean
towards, I do a lot and consume a lot and move really quickly
and think a lot. I have the perception of being
laid back. Like when I tell people I'm 80D,
they're really surprised. Like you're so calm, you're so
connected. And I was like, yeah, just look
under the hood. I don't have.
I don't have. A cadence, a slower cadence of a

(01:03:00):
person that under the hood is add, Yeah.
I've never had the H, you know, somehow that didn't land for me,
but I certainly have the two D's.
Well, you know what, 1D, I don'tthink it's a dysfunction.
Right. Distraction.
But I do like what you just saidbecause that I, it's tough to, I
would say it's tough to do both.It's tough to be the CEO of your
company and the CEO of your life.
And it's tough to sit down. And because we plan ahead too.

(01:03:22):
I've just got people that plan now and on sex, we have to have
a 12 month calendar and the planners do that much better.
I'll get in there way too disruptive because I'm thinking
about the little granular Subs. No, no, no, we have to get our
schedule done. And I don't put that emphasis on
my life near as much as I do. I, you know, I'm getting a whole
lot better at it. I'm thinking ahead now in my
life about what I want to do, but it's hard to get as as

(01:03:43):
granular as as calendry. Like this is where I'm headed.
This is what I'm going to do. I want to check this off and do
this and this and this because we're going to get so many
curveballs along the way. But I, you, you just spoke into
it. You kind of laid it out even
before I ask you around the professional side, but there
are, I mean, I think the number one desired profession among

(01:04:04):
kids and young people was influencers.
It's wild to think that, but people are.
And I if when I first heard that, I was like, oh, no, that
doesn't sound right or sound good because you think about the
negative side of social and all that.
But the reality is the world's changing.
It's it's we're all communicators.
We all got platforms. Technology's changing everything
overnight. And people are seeing things
that they aspire to just like wedid when we were kids.
I know the number of people I spend time or talk to that wanna

(01:04:30):
do a lot of things you do. I want, I want to write, I want
to speak, I want to start this. I want to.
Most people have the heart of wanting to do good, which is
kind of good whether they know what their motive is or not.
You figure that out later when you crash a few times.
You have you have started something that continues to kind
of grow like there was I, I knowwe can't talk about it yet, but

(01:04:52):
recently we engaged with a, a project that I'm so excited
about. It's like the world has been
waiting on Andy to do something like this.
And who know I've learned enoughto know you never know how those
things are going to check out, but man, I hope the world gets
more of you in that format. But it's also you've slowly
built and attract and I know some of your team.
I mean, you just, you put great people around you and I, I think

(01:05:15):
a lot of people would ask the question up front if they wanted
some. Anytime it's if I want to head
there, what's important, Yes. What are the foundational parts
I shouldn't miss? Yeah, well, you're right that
it's the people you put around you.
But at the start you don't have any money to put anybody around
you. And so often when people tell me
so I'll, I'll piece it out for just a second.

(01:05:38):
When people tell me they want towrite a book, I say sit down and
write a book. Just do it.
Get it out of your body. Get as much of it out of your
body as you can. You don't need anybody else.
You don't need any money. All you need is a computer.
You don't even necessarily need a computer.
If you just need your phone, just start typing.
But I think a computer is a better spot for it.
But I just get open a Google docand start going.
Get out as get the book as much of it out of your body as you

(01:05:59):
can. The only place that books really
get stopped is from your mind toyour hands.
Once it's out your fingers, you can, if you have any money, you
can hire an editor. If you have any friends, you can
make them read it. If you have a mom, you can make
her read it. You know, like there's just so
many ways that once a book is out of your head onto virtual

(01:06:19):
paper or real paper, that it canbecome something bigger than
just a document that's lived in your brain.
And so that's always the first thing I say.
Now when I say that to people, Ibet you one out of 100 actually
do it, OK? I that no one else can get your
words out of you except you. Why one out of 100?

(01:06:40):
Why such a low percentage? I think, I think there's a
collection of people that when they ask an author, how do I
write a book, they're not actually asking how do I write a
book. They ask how do I have a career
as an author and they don't wantto sit down and write a book.
And so then when I say sit down and write it, they go.
Oh, come on. And.

(01:07:00):
Do that. Yeah.
I wasn't interested. I wanted to know how do I.
Well, that's not what you asked me.
You asked me how to write a book, right.
So I think there's a collection of that 99 that are that I think
some people still have pain in the way and maybe shame in the
way that fear that Yeah, fear when they sit down and they put
hover their fingers over the keyboard, they start hearing the

(01:07:23):
circus that of like, no one cares.
No one's going to care about my story.
This story. I exist.
It's not as good as that. I I think of people.
What's coming to my mind is we have AI think we share a friend,
Lisa Turkers, who writes really beautifully about her marriage
and her the betrayal she experienced.

(01:07:44):
And, and there are other people who go, I wish I could share my
story, but Lisa Turkers already shared hers.
And you go, sis, sit down and write your book.
It has. Your book has not been written.
There are people waiting to hearyour story because there's one
part of your story that's different than what Lisa shared.
And that's what they're 18 womenwaiting to hear if that's part
of their story, too. And so people here in their

(01:08:06):
heads, I don't my story won't matter.
And it always does. It always, always, always,
always does. So I think that's some of it.
And I think there are other people who realize they don't
want to do that amount of work. OK, I've, I have, you've
probably done this too. I've walked up to, we did this
this week. We we outlined, I bet we spent
90 minutes on a project that we wanted to launch next year and

(01:08:28):
we got to end and we were like, I don't want to do that.
I actually think that sounds notfun.
And I'm, I can tell y'all, we'regoing to get four months into
this project and I'm going to bebored and I'm the one who has to
drive it. So forget it.
And we've retired it so you don't have to.
So it's not bad for you to walk away from a project you thought
you were going to do. Just tell yourself the truth
when you're walking away. So I think that's part of it.

(01:08:49):
I think someone who wants a public life, who hopes to use
their story through podcasting or speaking or books or any
other medium to help other people.
Start right now. Start if If you have a Facebook,
if you have an Instagram, if youhave a church in your community,
if you have a MOPS group in yourcommunity, if you have a, if

(01:09:13):
you're in a recovery community, if you are in a church.
There are a lot of places looking for someone who will
stand up for 5 minutes and tell their story.
Raise your hand, say you'll do it.
Get on your Instagram today. Post a picture of your yard that
you just cut and tell people whyit matters to you.
Like start now influencing with what you've been handed.

(01:09:34):
Because one of the one of the bigger truths that starts in the
Bible, but it's kind of plays out all around the world is the
idea of if you're, if you're trustworthy with a little,
you're going to get handed more.That's how you feel with the
people you work with. That's how people felt about you
as you were coming up. That's how people felt about me.
That's how I feel about my team.When we have someone new join

(01:09:56):
the team, we go, here's what you're in charge of and they do
really well by that. We go, if we gave you a little
more money, could you also do this other thing?
And usually it's a yes. And so very often, whether
that's PTA or in your church or in a recovery group or or with
your friends, if you will handlewell the little bit you've

(01:10:18):
given, and you already said it, handling it well doesn't mean
doing it perfectly, just means doing it and trying.
If you handle well what you've been given this little bit, you
will be given more. You just have to when the more
comes and you're afraid. I mean, you and I have talked
about this miles, but very oftensomeone say, Hey, do you want to
come speak at this event? It's, it's an arena.
It's 50,000 people and you'll betalking for 45 minutes about a

(01:10:39):
thing you do not want to talk about publicly.
And I go, Yep. And in my head I'm going no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that. That is so many people.
I've never been in front of thatmany people.
I don't want to talk about that.I don't I I've never done a talk
that long for that many. That's what's happening in my
head. But what comes out of my mouth,
Yes, yes, I'll do that. That sounds great.
Can't wait. Sign me up.
And then I panic to my team, right.

(01:11:01):
But when and it's not always a yes, I mean, I understand
there's other things. Does it not match with your
calendar? I mean it, of course there's
reasons it's a no, but what? But the the principle is when
the bigger is put in front of you, it's the moment you go, oh,
is this when I was trusted with a little bit and our team did
well with a little bit and now we're being handed a little bit

(01:11:23):
more. I should pay attention to that.
I should say yes, even if I'm scared.
And so if you have 35 people following you on Instagram and
you start sharing about what's going on with, with your
physical health, maybe, and it feels really vulnerable and, and
you've never talked about this publicly, but you're on a

(01:11:43):
journey to figure out your, what's going on with your
stomach or you're on a journey to be stronger.
You're on a journey to work through a health complication
you have and you go, I wonder ifthis would help anybody.
Can I share from the middle? Can I share wisely?
And then all of a sudden you have 55 followers and then all
of a sudden you have 100 followers and you're just being

(01:12:04):
gifted more influence because you're sharing vulnerably and
well and you will not do it perfectly.
I mean, how many time miles? I'm sure you've done this too.
I have posted stuff on Instagramand I'm like, take it down, you
dodo bird. You don't want anybody knowing
that. Weekly.
Yeah, I did it yesterday. I posted, I stopped at the donut
shop and I said this Donuts for me because I'm really sad and
these are for my team because we're trying to have a good day

(01:12:25):
at work and and I thought all day, is that too close?
Where am I on the line? Was that, is that my private
life that I just posted or is that my, is that me being
personal? All day long I jockey back and
forth of whether I should take it down.
I didn't, but it was a story. So it lasted 24 hours.
If it had been a post, I'd have pulled it down, but I knew it
was a story and it lasted 24 hours.

(01:12:46):
So we're we're trusted with a little.
We don't have to do it perfectly.
And then you're handed a little bit more and a little bit more.
And suddenly you look around like you've so kindly said, and
you've written a couple of booksand you've got a couple of
podcasts and you've got an audience hoping to have a better
life than they have. And they're hoping I will tell
them one thing to do today to give them just a little bit

(01:13:10):
better life. And so yesterday I said, here's
my hot tip. Go to the donut shop.
It's all right. I don't even eat gluten and I
got me a Maple doughnut. Oh, Fox's doughnut den and
green. That's the.
That's the one. That is it.
Listen, if you are anywhere nearNashville and you're any bit
sad, go to Fox's doughnuts. Just start there.
It will not be the end of your journey to healing, but it will

(01:13:30):
be a good part of your journey to healing.
And so that's I mean, you can tell me I'm wrong on that Miles
or or correct some of that as you need to, but but you've
everyone listening who wants to influence more people.
The way you do that is influencewho you've been given right now,
whether it's the kids in your house or the people who sit
around the circle with you on Monday night.
Or yourself or. Yourself.

(01:13:52):
Yeah. Lead yourself well.
Yeah, I mean, I could theorize with you and I could do a thesis
on why my first book's not out the door yet because I but I
think that's something I've beenlearning is like as long as I
camp out and analyze the why, I'll always be telling that
story. And I can't tell that story
anymore. I want to tell a different
story. And so I would say, yeah.
Do I have an Achilles heel? That's been a hang up for me to

(01:14:14):
get a couple things across. You bet.
Does it still show its ugly facedaily?
You bet. Is it my identity?
No. Bring your Achilles heel to the
dance, whatever it. Is I could say the same thing
about me being single. Nobody who's single, let me tell
you what no one wants me to say is that they've contributed to
their singleness. Do you remember being single?
And the idea of anybody saying you're a part of that, You're

(01:14:36):
like, no, I'm not. I'm mean, I'm swiping.
I'm done enough. I'm a single a little bit or a
medium bit because of me becauseI bring an Achilles heel to
every one of them. And so it isn't just everybody
else's that I'm not married, it's me too.
And I got to bring my Achilles heel to the dance and, and I'm
getting better at doing a relationship.

(01:14:57):
One of them I hope ends up with me getting married.
But every one of them, I'm getting better at dancing
because I'm telling myself the truth that I'm a contributing
factor to my life. And I'm telling myself the
reason you're a contributing factor is because of pain,
because of what you've been through.
So let's get that healed and worked on, but bring it all to
the dance like you. Said and then and then your

(01:15:19):
Achilles heel every I've never seen a marriage without an
Achilles heel. I've never seen a relationship
without Achilles heel. So it's like whatever you bring,
they're bringing it to. And it's that is the DNA that
makes one work. A lot of times it makes 1 not
work, but there's never not not existed.
My counselor last week said being I was talking through a

(01:15:39):
romantic relationship and she said this particular Achilles
heel that you'll have let me letme walk through all the reasons.
It's really hard ticked them offfor me.
Very informative because she waskind of she was zooming out and
going like, here's what you can't see.
But I've dealt with this Achilles heel 65 times.
Let me tell you what the and shesaid, and here are the big gifts

(01:16:00):
of it. You get to decide if you want
this particular Achilles heel. And she said, hey, but guess
what, every single relationship,we were using different
language, but she said every single relationship has one of
these. So if you don't want this one,
you're going to get a different one.
And then you're going to still assess here are the gifts and
here are the challenges. And I think that is what a gift

(01:16:21):
'cause you still, every relationship's going to have
them. There's not one.
What I wish would have happened growing up in my life is more of
the grown-ups around me, from pastors to small group leaders
to parents to teachers. I wish there to my aunts and
uncles, to cousins, to grandparents.
I wish more people would have said we have one.
We have an Achilles heel. I think it would have helped me

(01:16:43):
as I got into grown up relationship going, oh, did they
not have it? Oh, everyone I have every one of
these I get into has a problem. It's like, yeah, that's true of
everyone. Just I wish, I wish it would
have been more culturally appropriate or more culturally
accepted in the 80s and 90s for grown-ups to raise their hand

(01:17:03):
and share their Achilles heel. I wish there was even today.
Yeah, but I but I do think our parents generation, they were so
busy living it that it was difficult to carve out a voice
to describe it. There's a different generation
too. Like you didn't, what's the
point? You know, we got our problems
and you can either figure out that we have them or what they
are or not. But my, to this day, my parents
have done so many amazing thingsthey've never said.

(01:17:24):
Oh yeah, our marriage has reallybeen stressed at times.
I knew it as I saw because I've never seen a marriage that's not
stressed. But you have to kind of.
And and I'm trying to talk aboutthat more because in some days
it's the most blissful thing ever, whatever I want to sign up
for, and other days is a street fight.
It's like your first survival and you're like, Oh my gosh, my
kids and wounded fells here, you're wounded fells here.
And it's all part of the the dance.

(01:17:45):
But I, I do think that I've got a few things I really, really,
really want to do professionally.
There's a few things I've, I've realized personally that from a
timing standpoint, I might not do.
And I've, I've been, I've come to terms with that and grieve
that a little bit. And I think it's OK to identify

(01:18:07):
the obstacles because if you don't identify them, they're
always going to be obstacles. But if I could offer any
experiences, be sure not to campout there and let the obstacles
become your identity. Because I did that for a little
while with some of the missing things on my professional list
is I could give you again the whole case study on why it
hadn't happened. I was so familiar with it, I was
almost like getting reward from telling people about it.

(01:18:28):
It made it justified. It made me feel better.
But This is why you haven't donethat yet.
And I have felt a little bit andthat's why I don't have a lot to
say about it. I'm just learning a feeling.
I'm taking notes. And from what you shout about
being an author and all that is I, I have to come to terms with
being new. That's something being really
clumsy with it. And and will I bring the
obsessive part of my brain that's an over editing thing in

(01:18:50):
the you bet. Will it?
Will it hang me up? You bet.
Will it serve me maybe a better story?
It will. And just do it.
But also remember, when you're writing the book, Miles, you're
the only one who can write it. There's a gazillion people who
can edit it, so get it out of your body and let the people
edit it. And the other thing I'll tell
you that's true for all of our friends listening, you have not
missed the right time. That's the amazing part of all

(01:19:10):
of this is that we bring our struggles and our Achilles heels
and I have not missed the right man.
I have not missed the right books to write.
You have not missed the right book at the right time.
There have been struggles that have gotten you here, but the
amazing thing is that it all works out.
OK, come on now. You just you're everything
changed when you said. That it's true, right?
With you, it's like you said on that truth.

(01:19:32):
So clearly yes, and I would. Is that faith or where does it
come from that you, just you? Yes, I think it's, I think it's
some of my faith and I also think so.
Or just lived experience? Lived experience.
And it is, it is what I hope. It's what I hope is true.
It's what I see true in other people's lives is that it is

(01:19:52):
going to work out. You may not you.
I don't even say you may not you, none of us.
We will not get everything we want.
We will not get everything we want.
That is just full stop. There you go.
And also I have gotten more thanI ever deserved and and the the
delays in my life have played out correctly in the long run

(01:20:13):
and they have broken my heart. And it will all work out.
It is going to be OK. All divine timing.
That's it. It is all.
So the kindness of God, as I understand Him, is that is that
He lets me be a human and lets me fumble through some things
and I contribute to my life pretty significantly.

(01:20:36):
And He does not let me miss whatHe has for me because that's
what I want is what he has for me.
I was at the Met in New York. The they have these really huge
paintings. I like, love huge paintings.
I think they're incredible. They're like murals that take up
an entire wall. I'm like, how does someone do
that? How did you paint a human 3?

(01:20:59):
Times I was just at the Vatican 2 weeks ago and was shocked.
I was just I couldn't stop looking up and around.
Unbelievable. It's amazing.
I have none of those gifts. And so I just, I'm just amazed
by it. So I'm at the Met and I'm
walking through and they're all these portraits and they're huge
and they're these three friends standing in the 1800s.

(01:21:22):
They're standing by a table and it's, it's, it's a three real
people that were painted. And this idea drops in my head.
I would have told you it was Godin the moment.
The the idea drops in my head ofeverything that stressed them
out does not matter anymore. Every They are done getting to
risk. They are.

(01:21:43):
I don't even care what you believe about after you die.
They're done risking. They're done making decisions,
they're done trying. They stood there for that
painting as human as me and theyhave been dead 200 years and all
of a sudden I was like, it's allgoing to work out.
It's all going to work out. It's all going to work out.

(01:22:03):
They I wonder if they wish they had another shot to be insecure.
I wonder if they wish they had another shot to have a road
divide and not know which way togo and just jump and guess and
try. But now they're just a portrait.
In the Met, there may be someone's great, great
grandfather and they may be remembered by name.

(01:22:27):
I'm not a portrait yet. I I just three days ago saw the
road part and I took the one I thought was best.
I don't know. I don't know that it was best.
OK, guess what? It's all going to work out.

(01:22:47):
It's all going to work out. I did.
A door did not lock behind me. Sometimes they do.
A door did not lock behind me. I'm doing the best I can.
I am not a portrait yet. I'm a living, breathing human
who is trying. I'm doing the best I can with
what I have, and I've got an Achilles heel that'll everyone
will see on the dance floor all right.

(01:23:09):
But I'm not a portrait yet. It's all going to work out fine.
That's so encouraging. And I and I, and what if?
I mean, what if our legacy is not what we leave behind?
What if it's what we're living into right now, right?
What if people said about me? You know, I like about Annie.
She doesn't make all the right decisions.
Wouldn't that be great? You know, I like about Annie.

(01:23:30):
She just doesn't do everything exactly like I thought she
would. Great.
You're welcome to know me for that.
You're welcome to know me for she's pretty human.
That's good to me. And I think it's important for
people to hear that. I mean, I, I feel encouraged by
it because I, I have a deep belief that aligns with that,

(01:23:51):
that things are where they are, they're supposed to be, but I
struggle sometimes. I struggle some, some staying
there, not future casting and think, well, what is it I need
to do to manipulate where I needto go to make this happen?
And I think there is some truth to that.
So if you're sitting and thinking I'm right where I'm
supposed to be, I want to do these things, but I'm just going
to hang here until it happens. Now you got to, you know, prayer

(01:24:12):
doesn't. It's not prayer without action.
That's right. You got to show up.
You pray 1st and then yeah and. Then put some put you get your
boots on and start walking. That's right.
So so both both can be true, ButI felt like this huge thing lift
when you said that was such truth when you were like it's
all going to work out. It is even in the midst of I

(01:24:33):
said, well, that's the way I introduced you.
I said you hold grief and and joy at the same time and you
don't shy away from either one. I mean, your, your, your whole
platform is called it's about fun.
It's like, and, and, and I thinkyou are really fun.
I mean, you have that type fun, engaging personality and you'll
tell a sad part of your story just like that.

(01:24:54):
No wonder all of us are drawn towell.
It just that's very kind. I, I just can't imagine a world.
You, you have a real short window of influence if you only
tell us what you do, right? The ones who have the long
window are the ones who, who areletting us see both sides.

(01:25:16):
Not all of it, not your private life, but they're letting us see
their personal life. I want to have a long influence
reminding people it's all going to be OK.
Come on, God, I don't know what else I could say after that.
I feel like we just landed a massive plane.
It's going to be OK. If you're listening to this
podcast, it's going to be OK. I do want to ask you about
because when you came back you came out and visited me at on

(01:25:39):
site, you and Kelly one time andI forget y'all were working on a
project. We did the book trailer for That
Sounds fun. The book 'cause there's a whole
chapter on was it that sounds fun or was it Remember, No, it
was that sounds fun because there's a whole chapter on on
site and that sounds fun. And you wanted to come back out
and you're working with Lindsay,some of the team at the time.
And, and, and I said, well, how do we make this experience
great? And you say, well, I want to go

(01:26:00):
to the I want to go see the worst.
And that's something obviously it's been such a spiritual
gateway to me is my relationshipwith horses.
And is it? Was it Waylon?
Or yes, Waylon. Waylon was who you connected
with. Yes, it was wild.
You kept you. I wasn't planning on that.
I wasn't planning on having a doa piece of work out there in the
in the at the stables. I just horses are so honest and

(01:26:26):
and they it's something I learned it on is your body
doesn't lie and horses don't lie.
And so, Waylon, do you remember that you kept saying you don't
have to tell him what to do. You can let him.
You can let him lead. You don't have to.
And I was like, this is every dating relationship is playing
out right here with this one horse.

(01:26:47):
But it yeah, it's just incredible.
I've I've thought a lot about engaging in that again and just
getting it's, it was very healing.
We were trying to just shoot a video for the trailer and.
Turn into an experience it did well I'm I'm biased.
I'm a cowboy at heart. I've always been around horses
and I'm around them because I love them, but I love what they

(01:27:08):
represent. They've also been such a change
agent in my life for exactly what you said.
I mean, they are the ultimate mirror for truth in our stories
and, and empathy and trust. And I, I don't remember the
details about what happened thatday and you just reminded me of
some of it immediately came backcrystal clear.
I just remember we had a really cool experience with a horse I

(01:27:28):
care deeply about and I'll neverforget that.
And I think that's what I recallabout you whenever I think about
any time I've ever sit with you,as I had this really cool
experience with Annie and you, you curate experiences for
people to remember what matters.And I, I hope every conversation

(01:27:50):
I ever get an opportunity to have with you, I hope I get to
be a mirror to remind you how much you matter.
It helps me so much sitting withyou, so it is such a gift every
time. Yeah, thank you.
And tell me before we leave, tell me what you're working on
that you can tell me about rightnow.
I know one thing. That I can't tell you about.
Well, the good news is we don't know.
Then this comes out. So I can just say anything and
we can cut, but we can't no, youknow, we're we're going to keep

(01:28:12):
going with it. That sounds fun podcast.
That's one of the first things we do in those meetings that
take a couple of days as we do ayes, no list and we put
everything up on the wall. There is nothing that has to be
a yes. And so we go, we want to keep
doing the podcast and I do, I love it.
I love when my friends meet my friends.
And so we're going to go into the next couple of years really
working on getting spiritually stronger.

(01:28:33):
So wherever you are in your life, whether you're a spiritual
person, whether you are new to spirituality or whether you'd
say spirituality has been a whole part of my life.
What would it look like to get alittle stronger spiritually in a
world that feels really complicated and and you have
control over nothing? We do have control over our
strength sometimes, physical, mental, emotional, You can do

(01:28:57):
practices that will help strengthen you to handle the
world as it is handed to you. And so we want to be a place
that I want, that sounds fun, tobe a place where people go in
the midst of a world that I don't have a lot of answers for.
What's the practice I could do today to get a little stronger?
So we're going to lean into thatfor a year and a half and then I
think you'll like this. The thing that I have promised

(01:29:19):
my team since 2020 is summer of 2027, we're shutting everything
down for the whole summer. Sabbatical.
For the whole team, fully paid. And it is.
There's a scripture in the Biblethat says every seven years, let
the fields rest. And there's a belief system and

(01:29:40):
my job particularly that says ifyou go quiet, people go away.
But you know who doesn't feel that?
Adele. Do you know where Adele?
Well, you might, you might be friends with her.
The most of us don't know where Adele is.
We don't know what she's doing. We don't know.
She may be writing an album, shemay be not.
She is not posting on Instagram every day to remind us to listen
to her albums. Because there is a piece in some
creators hearts that says if I don't have anything to say, I

(01:30:02):
don't have to say anything that doesn't live in me.
And so we're going to practice in the summer of 27, giving our
whole team time to rest and letting the fields rest.
Not make anything, not create anything, not announce anything,
just hush from us from Memorial Day to Labor Day.
And so kind of everything we're building right now is going, how

(01:30:25):
do we get to that? Well, where we're not crawling
across the finish line, but we're also not running across
the finish line. I don't want us to be like full
out Sprint of we didn't work hard enough for 26 and half of
27 that we aren't tired. I want us to walk across that
line and hug each other and go live our summers and then be
ready to come back in the fall. And so everything's kind of
pointing toward that. We've got some books that I,

(01:30:48):
I've never done this before, Miles.
I've written 15 books and I've never written one that did not
get published. Meaning I wrote a book without a
deal. That is the deal that ends up
getting the book published. And so every other time it's
kind of like, hey, I want to, I'm going to write these three
books and then they just give mea timeline and I go in and write
them. This didn't work like that.

(01:31:09):
So I've got a finished book thatwe are working to see who, who
might want that and how it mighthelp people.
The summary is you're going to be OK and everything's going to
be OK. And so you, you don't let
anything hold you back. You've got what it takes.
And so even as you're saying like, peace came over me, I kind
of went, yeah, I that is what I need to be reminding everybody.

(01:31:29):
And so. So it was a good confirmation
today for you to reflect that tome.
So we're working on. Yeah, I feel the same.
We've said to publishers like they're like, when do you want
to come out? We're like, when do you want it
to come out? It's done.
Get it edited, help me make it better, and then let's drop it.
So I hope it comes out soon. And yeah, we're working on a new

(01:31:50):
project like you mentioned, another area of media that I
have longed to get into and really hope that I get to be an
influential voice there. I'm kind of the person a little
bit want to be like, oh, gosh, let me think of his name.
Sorry. Oh, how annoying to make you do
an edit this late in the show. Not Bobby Flay.

(01:32:14):
What's the one who has diners driving and dives guy Fiery.
OK. I kind of want to be like Guy
Fieri, where when you look around a grocery store or
restaurants or TV shows, you think guys in that section, you
know, like he makes BBQ sauce and he also tells you what
restaurants eating. I kind of want to be the friend

(01:32:35):
that you're like, anywhere you're looking, you can find me.
And so we're working on breakinginto some of those other places
where right now if you went looking for your friend Annie,
you wouldn't be able to find her.
And so we're working on that. And this fall I'm out on tour
with Kane, who's a Christian group, a brother and two
sisters. And we're kind of building a
show I think you'll like this month.
We're building a show that kind of doesn't exist, which is a

(01:32:56):
little scary, but it looks like a variety show.
It has some game show moments toit.
It has some real serious momentsto it.
It has a little honoring someonein the crowd moment to it.
And I get to kind of be the hostand the cruise director.
And I've never done anything like 40 cities in 10 weeks.
And so we are just it's your life.
If I'm on a tour bus and yeah, I'm home, I get home Monday

(01:33:18):
mornings and I bust back out Wednesday nights.
I have Mondays off to. Rest like a traditional national
tour. Yeah, yeah.
And so we're out for 10 weeks from from when we're recording.
I'm I'm going out in two weeks until.
Thanksgiving. I love variety shows.
Yeah, I think it'll be really fun.
Yeah, that's what I that's what I think will.
I think people really enjoy it. So I'm always up for building

(01:33:39):
new things. And I, I'm excited right now
because I just came off of a couple of weeks of rest.
I had a couple weeks off in the summer.
And I always believe you rest from what you've done, but
you're also resting to what you're about to do.
And I feel rested and excited toto keep building and going and,
and for as long as I'm trusted with a voice, I will remind

(01:34:03):
people that it's going to be OK.We're going to make it.
We're going to be all right. Well, if, if there were so many
things we didn't even talk abouttoday that I, I know you
probably talk about on the regular, which is you're a
faith-based leader. And I, I kind of walk in that on
that line between. I have a lot of people in the
secular world that I speak to and influence and, and a lot of

(01:34:25):
people in the faith-based world that align with some of my
beliefs. And and I've always tried to
figure out, OK, how do you be Invitational with tools that
have been super helpful me without over trying to prescribe
something that people might turnpeople away.
And I would just say we didn't get you didn't get to hear this
part today very much, which is kind of cool because people kind
of know you for that. They may get to know you a
little different today. But if there was ever a voice

(01:34:48):
that feels true and trustworthy,that is going to tell you what
you believe but not put it down your throat.
You were one of those for me when I was trying to re engage
with certain parts of my faith that I don't even know if I've
ever told you that part, but that I started listening to

(01:35:08):
pieces of what you talked about.And it was.
So maybe it's because you were making it fun, but not scared to
death. But it was was almost like you
could say something that would have historically been
activating for me, but it wasn'tyou didn't shy away from it, but
you made it very attractive and Invitational.
And that is a that is a gift of yours.
So if you got questions about life, if you just want to have

(01:35:30):
some fun and laugh, if you've got questions about your
spiritual life, I think you are a great voice of reason and
truth to engage in all kinds of ways people can engage with you
from from books to podcast. But I couldn't encourage you
more to to jump in and get on the fan training.
My friend Annie, this was so fun.
Thanks for coming. Thanks for doing.

(01:35:52):
This. I mean, I know you want to have
other guests, but we could just do this every week.
Yeah, just Annie Miles. Talk it out every week.
No. Have other guests get some other
wisdom. Get some real wisdom.
But thank you for having me. Thanks for trusting me with
this. I'm excited about what you're
making. We have needed this.
So thank you for what you're making.
Well. Thanks so much for sharing your
wisdom with everybody today. My pleasure.

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Annie F. Downs: The Cost of Being Everyone’s Bridge to Something Better

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