Ashley Gorley: Staying Human When Everyone Expects You to Be a Machine

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We've been taught everything except how to be human.
Welcome to human school, where remarkable people turn raw,
unfiltered experience into practical wisdom.
I'm Miles Adcox, and this podcast was born from the belief
that you don't graduate from being human, you just get more
honest about the lessons. If you're ready to stop

(00:21):
performing your life and start participating in it, you're in
the right place. This is human school, where we
finally learn what matters most.Today's guest is one of the more
rare people you'll ever meet in the music industry.
He doesn't fit any of the stereotypes or molds that often
define success in that world. He's a normal family man, a

(00:43):
husband, a dad, and chances are you don't know much about him
because he doesn't lead with what he's accomplished.
And yet, what he's accomplished is pretty extraordinary.
He's written more #1 songs than anyone in country music history,
but the numbers don't tell his story.
The real story is how he shows up with humility, curiosity, and
an unshakable respect for the people in the process.

(01:04):
Ashley Gourley has a gift for turning real human stories into
songs that become part of our lives.
His work has shaped the sound ofmodern country music, but his
heart and character have shaped something much more lasting.
How to carry success without letting it carry you.
I'm honored to sit down with himtoday, not just as one of the
more accomplished songwriters ofour time, but as a friend, a

(01:26):
father, and a man who continues to lead with grace, kindness,
and authenticity. Please welcome my friend Ashley.
Corny, hey? Welcome on board buddy.
How are you? I'm good.
You've been on the run. Where you been?
Oh, we had fall break last week.So I had a a good re energizing
week at the beach. So it was a good, it's a good
family final, final fall break. So it's one of those bittersweet

(01:47):
things. We have our our last kid in the
House senior, so that's the lasttime we'll have our big fall
break. You guys ready for that big
Band-Aid? No, no, no, not at all.
I. Can't imagine I'm on the other
end of that spectrum. And then we got started late.
We're similar in age but I'm just said we're second and 1st
grade now. No, that's awesome.
I'm jealous of that. It's it's fun, though.

(02:08):
They never, you know, I've talked to both of them, all
three kids last night. So you know, they don't
completely go away, thankfully. But no, we had a great time.
Time passed slow. I prayed for that and it it
really I got to sleep in. It was it was much needed.
Did your whole family get to come?
Yeah, for like a little bit of it.
There's one one day where they're all three there.
There's only one day in town. And then my older son Caleb,

(02:33):
who, you know, got to come for like 3 or 4 days before we had
to go back. And then Connor was there the
whole time. Cool and when you're down there,
I said, I heard you say you prayed for time to move slow,
but how are you able to unplug pretty well when you're.
Yeah, I'm out, totally. I mean, unplugging to me isn't
sitting there with a book, you know, I still want to do stuff,
you know, So it's perfect for me.

(02:54):
We went to the Bahamas for a little while and then Florida
for a little while. So there's a lot of golf, bad
golf, football, you know, just running around, you know, having
dinners, doing things like that.So it's great.
It's all the things I like to todo, but I can.
I'm definitely not thinking. I wish I was writing a song
today. I'm I'm past that face.
Sometimes I listen to stuff and get to kind of, you know, just
listen to regular music or demosor whatever.

(03:16):
But none of that stuff's, none of that stuff's in my head when
I'm out there. Because I know you, you've
obviously achieved A tremendous amount as a songwriter, but you
also are an entrepreneur, CEO, or owner of a publishing
company. It's been wildly successful.
You got a lot of guys underneathyou.
And are you getting pinged with emails and stuff when you're out
of office? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no.
That doesn't. Stop.
I don't know. I don't know how people pull
that off. I want to how to make a message

(03:37):
on my phone, But I mean, I also like don't mind that it doesn't
like throw me completely off. They they knew the people that
needed to know, knew that I wasn't available for stuff.
But I still like to check in. You know, I'm a control freak.
So I still want to make sure everybody's, you know, cranking
the gears and making everything happen.
So I didn't I didn't mind that kind of check in.
It kind of clears my head and good things always happen when
I'm gone. I feel like when I'm out of

(03:57):
town, so it's fun to check in with them.
I still, you know, I still love it.
So it wasn't it wasn't a headache.
I'm glad to see you're starting to pick up and continue to play
a little golf. Are you liking it more?
Well, that seems like we talked about it two or three years ago
and you were just getting into it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not even, Yeah, maybe maybe 2
years. Yeah.
My, my youngest son came in and said they were playing golf
today after we got home from church.
And I was like, we don't know how.

(04:17):
And he's like, we know how we'regoing to figure it out today,
you know, So we went to some little $10 course and, you know,
tried, tried to figure it out, but it's, it's as long as you're
not taking it too serious. I don't, you know, my dad, every
time he comes into town to visitme, brings me a box of about 100
used balls so that it so I don'thave to look for him because I
won't do that. Is your dad a big golfer?

(04:38):
Yeah, he plays all the time. He he, you know, has played for
years. So he's still, he still plays
with his friends two or three times a week.
So once, once I play with the right people.
It's all about the people. Just like anything, you know,
whether it's writing their work or playing whatever, as long as
I like the people I'm around, it's fun.
I don't know if I've kept score on 18 holes more than a time or
two, but I love playing like 2 on 2 or just just out there

(04:59):
hitting around. You know what?
Good weather and good good surroundings.
What do you feel like your your best sport is?
I've now the only one I've played only one I've played with
you is basketball. And yeah, I was pretty
impressed. Your 3 point shot was pretty
impressive And but I I've heard about the infamous pickleball
matches at your house. I haven't been invited to 1.
I got to figure out how to get. On that invite but.

(05:20):
All my buddies have said you play a ton over there.
Yeah, we, we have some ports of the house and it's just a great
social gathering thing. I'm not, I'm not a big on like,
let's go downtown to a, you know, 3 hour dinner.
I'm more like, no, let's just have people over and hang out
and play, you know, or food if we need to.
But yeah, we just, we play a couple nights a week.
You know, it's getting getting alittle colder, so I don't know
how much longer that'll last, but I, I'm, I'm not great at it.

(05:41):
That was, you know, I could be one of the better ones there or
the worst one there, depending on the, the people that come.
But it's one of those sports youcan learn in like 5 minutes, you
know, so anybody that's played asport before can kind of figure
it out pretty quick. So it's just fun.
I love that. And it's two on two.
I like team stuff. That's why I even golf.
I try to make it a team sport too.
I don't like being out of my ownand and taking full
responsibility for all my errors.

(06:02):
But basketball is what I was best at, at least for a time.
Not not necessarily now, but, but that would be the one I at
least know the most about. Athlete growing up.
Yeah, I played high school basketball until I tore my ACL
my senior year and then then spent a lot more time trying to
make beats and make music. So it was all, all part of the
plan. But I, I did love, I still love
it, love watching it. And my, you know, my daughter

(06:23):
played all, all three kids play the least wreck ball or played
in middle school or high school.And we have basketball, you
know, goes to the house and stuff.
So we, I love just playing with them and shooting around.
That was that was definitely thefamily sport that we all
participated in. Sports before music, or music
before sports for you when you grew up.
Oh, sports, yeah, music was not on the on the radar.

(06:44):
I mean, where I'm from, that's there's nothing cooler than
than, you know, sports going to sports achievements in in that
regard. You know, it would still,
regardless how many number ones I have right now, if I was the,
you know, assistant coach for UKbasketball, then that would be a
greater accomplishment than any any musical thing being in the
hall, some kind of Hall of Fame for sure.

(07:04):
But yeah, I think all that stuffkind of trains you to run
companies and coach writers likeI'm doing now and just all that
stuff. I still have flashbacks of that
and just the ability to push yourself beyond what's
comfortable and, you know, run an extra Sprint when you don't
think you can. I mean, I kind of, I feel like I
use those those skills. I think that's what sports are
really good for, just helping you focus in and deal with
failure. All that stuff I think I think

(07:27):
is really helpful later on. Where do you you said where you
grew up sports was kind of. The thing yeah, Kentucky.
So, yeah, basketball in Kentuckyis a big deal, obviously.
So I was right there in central Kentucky.
We had a good football team. I wasn't on it.
All the great basketball playersplayed football.
That's why I got to start and play basketball.
So I was thankful for that. But and that was it.
It was basketball, football, baseball.

(07:47):
We didn't have lacrosse or any of the some of those cooler
things that they got. Now.
My son played lacrosse, my olderson.
It was awesome. I'd probably like that.
But they didn't didn't have thatthat back then.
So, yeah, a little little farm town.
But it was fun, man. It was, it was good.
I'm glad that I'm glad I got to play back then at a smaller, you
know, there's just a small public school.
What's the name? What?
What? Name Danville.

(08:08):
Danville. Yep.
There's a county. Yep.
And then where I'm from, there'salways a county and a City High
school and they're always rivals, you know, So there'd be
Boyle County. We play against them.
That would always be the rivalry.
And every, every county had likeits city, city school and the
County School. I've never seen a private school
until I moved here. How many?
What's the population of Danville?
Oh gosh, I've, I have no idea. It's gets grown a little bit.
It's it does have a college. So it's not like just a, you

(08:31):
know, it's not a one, one light town like we, we write about in
our songs, but it's close to Lexington too.
That would be the big city. I would say it's probably 3540
minutes from there, so. With the suburb of Lexington
then. Kind of, yeah.
It's its own thing, but it's like if you're trying to go to
a, you know, to your dinner for prom, then you're driving to the
Olive Garden in Lexington, you know what I mean?
You're driving that 45 minutes to get to, to a place that's not

(08:54):
fast food. Back when I grew up.
So that's fun. And a lot of my, a lot of my
friends went to UK. My wife now went to UK.
So I, we were dating then I'd govisit her there and that was
like, you know, that was college, college I.
Went to met in college. Met in went to different high
schools, but we met kind of our senior year in high school, but
didn't go the same high school. And then we, we did the long

(09:15):
distance thing, went to, went tobreak up.
I mean, in literally very small town.
We're, we're sitting in Dairy Queen parking lot.
When I kind of talked her into, Hey, let's just, if this doesn't
work out, it didn't work out enough.
Let's not break up just cuz we're going to college.
And then we've been married for 25 years now.
So that was a good call. But I, again, I think God had it
all kind of planned out. I college for me was just one

(09:35):
big internship. You know, I think I went to one
party. I was just trying to figure out
what in the world I could do in the music business, you know,
and how it worked. I had none of that experience.
I don't know anybody in the state of Tennessee, you know,
when I moved here, so it was I was just by myself trying to
reinvent or figure out who I was.
Is it? Belmont, right?
Yeah, Belmont. What made you choose Belmont?
Well, I want to do something in.I mean they had a music business

(09:57):
program then MTSU, it was eitherNew York, Nashville or LA and
Nashville seemed the least scaryin the closest to those.
So I kind of drivable, yeah, drivable.
And then I hadn't been to any ofthem, you know, so and, and I
was, I was a fan of all kinds ofmusic growing up, MTV, kid, hip
hop, R&B, love, love those genres, pop and obviously lived

(10:19):
country songs, you know, we did all the small town stuff.
So I kind of always loved it all.
And it's, it's, it's kind of come full circle now that it's
all blended together here in these last few years.
So I've gotten to pull from frommy love of all those genres and
and and put it into what I get to write.
What did you who? Who are your early influences?
Oh man, I would always look, youknow, I'm always look looking up

(10:40):
who's in the parentheses or who wrote it or who produced it.
So I loved like Babyface wrote almost every song I loved back
then, so many songs. And I've gotten to to meet him
be friends with now, which is awesome.
But him and Teddy Riley and I love Stevie Wonder and Prince
and all that stuff. And then I also loved Nirvana
and Guns and Roses and that whole, you know, that whole era

(11:01):
also Whitesnake, all that stuff.Just anything, anything popular.
Not not. I never went full scream
hardcore metal. I was still like more.
Posters in your room. No, if I did they were with
basketball players. I'm sure I had the turntable
that was a DJI started DJ ING parties in like 6 or 7th grade.
So I was trying to. Scratch records and and figure
out how to make rap beats was probably that that was my

(11:23):
starting out form of songwritingwas doing remixes and trying to
just trying to figure out what made songs go and I'd play in
the parties and be like, gosh, II was just very curious, very
fascinated with like, how does this exist?
You know, how is this song beingplayed?
I push play. How does this come out of the
speakers? And it's it's rawest form.
You know, I just had no idea. I didn't grow up in like a

(11:44):
family whereby played instruments or sing around the
piano like you see in some of the movies where people have
that kind of musical family. It was more like AM Radio County
High school football games, you know, when I was in the car with
my dad and stuff like that. But my parents contribution was
just never telling me that, thatthey thought I was crazy for
trying to do it, you know, and they just encouraged it and

(12:05):
wanted me to do something that Ilove.
That was my dad's advice. You know, in that town, it's a
lot of lot of farming and factory work, you know, and, and
I did not meet anybody that loved their job till I was out
of there. You know, not that it was super
bad or depressive or like peoplehated it, but it was just a way
to make money was what a job was.
So I was, I was very, very determined to figure out a way

(12:26):
to do something, to figure out something I love and figure out
a way to make money at it. So it wasn't necessarily one of
your parents or even a grandparent that first
introduced you to music. It was.
It was you just found. It me in the bedroom?
Yeah, with headphones on. My my grandmother had an upright
piano that I'd pluck around on if I'd go over there.
I try to take piano lessons. My mom, somebody put me in piano
lessons for like a year or so ortwo when I was a kid.

(12:49):
That went away. I tried to retake that in
college when I got to Belmont. I'm like, I should maybe I
should learn to read music. And I just, it doesn't make
sense to me. So I still can't read it.
I had to drop that class so I didn't fail it.
He said, everything you're doingwith your hands is wrong, you
know, And I was like, I'm I'm too far gone the other way.
I can't, I can't relearn it now.It's too late.
So I've always just for me, it was easier to make it up and do

(13:09):
it my own way. Same on guitar.
Just kind of taught myself, learned how to play that at a
party one time somebody showed me and that's all the lessons I
had for for both of those instruments.
Is that what you call playing byear?
Just learning and there's, there's a Nashville system.
I can, I can hear stuff and you know, it's like it makes sense
when I hear it and it, you know,just that and a lot of people in
Nashville can do that. It's not that unique here.

(13:29):
It is before you get here, but once you're here, everybody can
kind of speak that language and talk in numbers and and figure
out what's what's going on by listening to it.
But it was the you mentioned theACL tear, so the ACL tear
happened when you say your. Junior right before my senior
year, summer game before my senior year and it I mean it
popped like it echoed in the gym, tore everything meniscus
ACL wasn't like a partial tears like a rubber band snapping.

(13:51):
And you know, that brought literally just me.
I just thought it was the worst thing ever, you know, because I
was going to be my senior year. I had a bunch of buddies that
were on the on the team as juniors.
We're kind of the core group andI just thought it was like the
worst possible thing that could happen to me.
But did the rehab. It's never gotten all the way
better. I've still got screws in there.

(14:11):
I think I'm supposed to take out20 years ago, but they're still
in there. And you know, the stuff wasn't
as good back then. The the how you see people
bounce back now. I didn't, I never got all the
way bounced back, but also didn't eat.
I wasn't playing college or anything.
I wasn't that good, but it was definitely something I love to
do. I still love to do it, still try
to play pick up when I can. And so that with that, was that
the tipping point for you where it's like, OK, I've been

(14:34):
focusing in this lane, but now Ineed to put my energy.
Over yeah, I mean, I always messaround with music and have
friends over and make beats and we'd rap and try to play it at a
party just to hear ourselves, you know, they're terrible, but
just to hear ourselves like on speakers like, oh, we made this
we invented this, you know, thatkind of a, of a feeling or just
that situation. So I always try to, you know,
basically back then it was more making beats or making tracks,

(14:55):
people call it. And what that did was just open
up that window from, you know, three to six or whenever we
practice that I, I would spend, you know, listening and trying
to make music, you know, and I had a my I had a choir teacher
who gave me an independent study.
She knew that I was into that, into trying to create music.
And so kind of from 1:30 on, I was allowed to, to go in there

(15:19):
and just tinker around with somekeyboards and drum machines and
stuff like that, you know, in anindependent study.
And then when all the all my buddies were practice, then I
would, I would stay there and just try to make up, you know,
I'd be in my bedroom trying to make songs.
And you just literally learned it.
You just picked it up yourself, tried to figure.
It out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Never had anybody show you? Here's how it works.
No, no, that would have been awesome.

(15:40):
I've been very handy. Like now you can YouTube it or
ask AI or whatever. I mean, now most people know how
to run that stuff. I still, I have a studio and
can't record a vocal. I just never learned how to do
all the technical side of all that stuff.
I just caught There was a time where I I put up the drum
machine in the any kind of electronic stuff and I tried to
take those classes of Belmont and I was always terrible in

(16:00):
those. The more scientific and the more
focus it required than the less I could do it.
So I'm kind of what they call a top liner, which is the melody
and lyric. And I, I knew that.
I knew I felt like I could learnhow to do that pretty well.
So I kind of focused on that andI thought I was going to be AA
and R guy, you know, at a label or maybe a publisher.
Once I figured out what publishing was, I was like, oh,
I love that sign and writers listening to songs.

(16:22):
I feel like I know what songs are hits or what songs will
will, you know, do great. I've DJ parties where I'm like,
these songs make the crowd go nuts.
You know, it kind of started there.
But eventually, when I learned about songwriting as a gig, you
know, as a like thing where somebody will pay you and that's
your job, then then I went pretty hard after that, probably
my sophomore year, when I learned that was a thing.

(16:44):
Then I was like, all right, I got to figure this out and just
started interning like crazy. Knew that's where you wanted to.
Go yeah, somewhere in the I knowI always wanted to be in
publishing and songwriting, which is rare.
Usually that's something you getinto later on, you know, after,
after you write. But I knew I wanted to do both
and which I do. I've done that for the last 1213
years out of publishing company and coached writers.

(17:05):
Been a player coach for lack of a better term for the last
several years. You seem to be thriving in that
role as I I just got to know youin the latter years, last few, I
mean we've been around each other in proximity and knew one
another a little bit, but not like we have the last few years.
And you seem like the that when you get an opportunity to mentor
somebody or pour into somebody, either traditionally when it
comes to the craft of songwriting or life, you you

(17:28):
seem to light up. It's almost like you're you're
leaning into a part of yourself that is just was always probably
meant to. Yeah, but I think that's that's
always been there. I just had to have a little bit
of success myself for him. I would listen to me, you know,
So once, once I had enough, enough hits to feel like, OK, I
can open this thing up and try to sign some people out.
Yeah. If I, if I do have one kind of
God-given thing, it's definitelynot playing, singing any of

(17:51):
that. It it would be just recognizing
the good and bad parts of the songs now they could be better
and stuff like that. So I love, I love being able to
do both almost can't, can't do 1without the other at this point,
you know, I'm so used to, to having a hand in both in both
areas, you know, but I, I love coaching the once I got over the
fear of not, you know, of, of coaching like kids sports.

(18:13):
And I just started coaching all of them all the time.
Even if I didn't know, even if though I've never played soccer,
I would coach that coach basketball, coach anything but
baseball. I just can't do that, even
though that's what my youngest son plays.
But the rest of them I would always jump in and try to coach.
I just loved thinking that I made some type of difference,
like, oh, I showed somebody how to do this.
And now look at them, they're doing that and they and they

(18:34):
feel better about themselves because they understand that
skill. And also coming up and not
having any direction, you know, in songwriting.
It always, you know, it took me,I was in town 11 years before I
had to hit seven years out of college before I had anything
that made any money. And, and I, I always felt like
with more mentors that time could maybe shrink down or like,
you know, I, I'm just giving people what I would have wanted

(18:55):
to hear, you know, back then. And, and when we signed writers,
we're, we are critical, the good, the bad, the whatever.
And they know that they have to be coachable, you know, if we
sign them and, and that's been fun.
And to hear them come back and thank us for that part, you
know, they'll always be like, man, thanks for telling me my
song sucked back then. A lot of people just tell them
they're all great, you know, andit's always a funny thing to
think about, but but it's true, you know, that's what that's

(19:17):
what people need. They need to know where they
need to grow, you know, and thenthey love the honesty of that.
And that's, it's always great tosee people who have, you know,
writers that that I we signed and they got their first hit
under our label, which has happened, you know, tons of
Times Now we've had four writerswe signed have 10 plus number
one hits now, you know, or just to see them even go to their
wedding or see them have their first kid and just just doing

(19:40):
life with them, all of that stuff.
I'm kind of like the dad of the crew, you know, all the riders
are younger than me, so it's just fun to to get to see them
go through those life phases. And I love, I love when they
come to me for advice on anything from selling a catalog
or what do I, you know, what do I do with this money now that I
have it? Or just like, Hey, should I
should I write this type of thing or do you think this
sounds good? I definitely feed off of that

(20:02):
and feel like I can feel like I'm contributing more than just
me. I'm not the guy that sits in a
cabin with a notepad and like creates like that.
You know, I'm more of a social writer team.
Like I said earlier, team sportsare more appealing than the than
the pressure of a solo sport. You mentioned that you had the
11 year. I know it's always a joke.
It's a 10 year town. Like I think people just

(20:22):
arrived. But most everybody I talked to,
it takes what it takes. It's just a chunk of time.
But you also said if I'd have had a little more mentorship,
some stuff might have happened. Doors might open a little
sooner. How much do you think the
relational side slash, I'm not crazy about this word, but it
kind of works in this context. Networking side, how much do you
think that matters in terms of getting your stuff out there?

(20:44):
It depends. I do think there have been
people that I think I've had great success from networking.
I don't ever think that that that's what gives them lasting
success. They may get have a relationship
with somebody, end up getting ina room and have a song or two
kind of pop off because of the networking, But I don't think
it's all it's cracked up to be. I guess, you know, like I didn't

(21:04):
do the rounds. I didn't play the Bluebird or
anywhere until I had a hit. There's no way I was getting up
there to play those songs. I I definitely didn't do all the
hangs and and all the networkingpeople.
You want people to know who you are.
So it makes sense to get out there and it makes sense to go
to to hear other people playing and see how your song stack up,
you know, and not try to be in denial of that.
But I'm, I'm less of a a try to meet everybody or be at the bars

(21:26):
at night. I've never, I never was, you
know, cut out for that. So for me, the song, my songs
were getting recorded hopefully on basis of the song, you know,
especially in the beginning, I don't have any relationships.
So when I got those first few songs recorded, if I was with
that artist on the elevator, they would know I was, you know,
so, and that's what really drew me to Nashville is you can be a
nobody and get a song recorded by somebody, you know, And, and

(21:49):
that was what I kept believing. And, and then ended up getting
some songs on Carrie Underwood or George Strait or, you know,
Brad Paisley and all these people that that I couldn't
believe we're recording the songs and then end up meeting
them later on, you know. You kind of you say, I like the
way you frame that being nobody and get something recorded by
somebody. What you seem, it seems like the
nobody lane or being behind the curtain has been somewhat

(22:11):
attractive to you. Maybe it fits your personality,
your suits, your style, but I know there's especially since
you've achieved something that nobody else has achieved in your
profession, more and more peoplewant to know your story.
I think you've had people askingfor documentaries and other
things. I'm I'm all sure.
Of yeah. And I'm like, no, you don't do
that. That's going to be too boring.
No way. So I usually turn those down.
But yeah, I mean, I am an anomaly because I never, ever

(22:33):
wanted to be an artist, you know, or like, sing my own
songs. That's not in my DNA for
whatever reason. Or in my bones.
I mean, it's still not usually, usually even if somebody just
does a side project, a songwriter will do their own
little record or whatever. But I mean, I'm, I'm, that's
probably 99% of people that are songwriters at one point wanted
to be the one singing them, you know, and not that they're all

(22:55):
like failed artists, but I didn't.
Realize it was that many I. I feel like it is.
I don't think I can't name 5. You know, they didn't even if,
and you may think like, oh, they've been writing for so long
that that's what they were, you know, thought and they may find
out that's what they were born to do.
But in the beginning they were in a band.
There's some funny picture of them somewhere in a band, you
know, with the cowboy out on trying to make it happen.
You know, I think if you go backfar enough and I just, I just

(23:16):
never had that kind of confidence or that kind of
ability, honestly, like to play and sing like that.
I always wanted to be the personmaking up the song and I sing it
down and the only people that hear that are the writers and
the artist. And then they replace that with
a good voice. You know, I'm always good at the
phrasing and kind of the the like, Hey, I think I should, it
should go exactly like this. If this was a good, good voice,

(23:37):
you know, or if this was a was areal artist, then I'm, I, I do
that real, I do what they call the scratch vocal a lot because
I can hear all that stuff and I can get it out.
But but you're not going to hearit, you know, you're going to
hear like the real artist singing them.
I was thinking most people, you know, that's just the more the
general dream is usually like I want to be on stage or I want to
I want to sing my songs. I want to write songs and I want
to get them out to the world, but I want to write the songs

(23:58):
and other people get them out there.
And it's always been like that with me.
But it's it is it is very rare. So I know that I'm weird when it
comes to that. I've got to play riders around
tonight. Now that I have hits that people
know I'm OK to do that sometimesif it's like a benefit, I still
wouldn't do it for fun. You know her to hear myself talk
or sing. But yeah, I'm still, I'm

(24:19):
definitely not a public eye person.
I will not read an interview back.
I won't watch this back ever. I never see this.
Is it a, is it a, you mentioned confidence, is it a confidence
thing or is it just a personality type?
Like what you can say I'm, I'm introverted, I don't want to be
out there in that way. Of course, some introverts are
really great on camera. Just depends I guess.
In that lane, I guess could be kind of a confidence thing or

(24:40):
like I just I'm uncomfortable with it be and it may be because
I am so many different people. When I write, I'm basically
character acting, you know, So when I go in the studio, I am
like, hey, if I was so and so, what would I want to do next?
What's the next thing I would do?
That's kind of the position I'm in.
I've been doing it for so long that I can get a little lost and
like, who am I? Who what would my album sound

(25:01):
like? I have no idea.
You know, it would be a big, youknow, combination of everything
I grew up listening to and I don't even know what I would
sound like. You know, it's just so, and
there's a there's a little bit of pressure off there because
I'm, you know, if you're an artist, you're like picking your
one song to put out there for the whole world to, to hear.
And I get to do that everyday. Just, you know, writing so many
songs for so many different people, The variety.
I thrive in that, you know, but there's no part of me that's

(25:22):
like, I want to, I wish I was the one singing that or I wish I
was on stage, you know, singing that song.
So I don't know what that is. It's, it's just, I've never been
uncomfortable. There wasn't a lot of pictures.
You know, they're growing up. It wasn't like we had a
camcorder being followed around.I wasn't, you know, now kids are
like, I mean, they can smile fora picture at six months old.
They know what's going on. And we just didn't have that.

(25:43):
There's not a ton of pictures ofme in my youth or whatever.
And I did not grow up comfortable around that kind of
thing, you know, around people taking pictures of even even as
I've won awards and had to get on stage.
I mean, there's nothing less comfortable for me than having
to get up there and think all eyes are on me because that's
been a that has been a struggle.I know you and I both talked
about before because we've and we will get to that eventually.

(26:06):
I want to talk about a project that we we kind of help put
together to help people for the very thing I'm getting ready to
introduce. But we have seen the negative
side of the spotlight when it gets too bright and people don't
manage it well. And we've seen what can happen
over and over again. You and I both have had an up
close look at that. Is there any part of you that
feels like you're protective against that?

(26:27):
Like your privacy matters and. I think so, yeah.
I like, I like to not have my entire life out on, you know,
display. I don't have any social media.
I'm freaked out by that stuff, you know, I mean, it doesn't to
me, it doesn't feel like it's all just because I know there
would be weird negative commentsand there's people that just,
you know, bash everything that would be hard to read, you know,

(26:49):
as an artist or just as a person.
People always say weird stuff. So, but it's not all that for
me. It's just like I, I can't
imagine watching myself doing something to being like, hey
guys, I'm out here doing, you know, I don't know, that just
doesn't compute with me. It just stops right in my gut
somewhere and goes, no, you can't do that.
Do not. Do that self promotion.
Type. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.
I think that that's really hard for me even even when I write

(27:10):
songs and people get this wrong,I think, I think because I've
had some success, they think that I'm like working it or I'm
out there saying like, Hey, you got to record this and this is,
you know, pumping up may make sure you're pumping it up.
Call in and check on this song, see what it's doing on the on
the chart. And I just think that stuff's
out of my control. I usually I don't, I'm really
bad at that, you know what I mean?
I have to let the song speak foritself and tell them, I think

(27:30):
this is great. I think this what you should do
and it's up to, you know, whether you do it or not.
And I just have to kind of leaveit at the door.
But I'm definitely not great at like, let's go, you know, or
like cheerleading it, you know, or like, look at me or anything
like that. So that that's just always been
something that made me wildly uncomfortable.
So in this generation of, you know, I mean, not kids, adults

(27:50):
too, everybody that's online kind of being like, hey guys,
I'm filming myself that I can't imagine anything worse than
that. So that's just, I don't know
whether it's confident. I'm not saying that's a good
thing. A lot of people are like, oh,
that's so cool that you that youdon't need that or you don't
like, I'm like, well, I don't know if it's cool or if it's
just me being scared to death ofit.
It's just, that's just, I don't know.
I want to protect some of me, you know, and my family, my life

(28:12):
or whatever. I don't want it all out there,
you know, I don't know if there's sides of me, you know,
like, hey, I don't want I look like that or I'll talk like that
or there's so many things. I just think that I would be so
self aware of that it would justset off alarms.
And I can't, I can't imagine. I'm actually impressed how many
people don't have that shy thing.
You know, I don't even FaceTime people, you know, like our kids

(28:32):
do that or whatever. I'll be like, I'll probably look
terrible on there. Why would I?
Why would I do that? I'd rather just talk.
So yeah, I'm definitely, definitely shy when it comes to
that. I was even shy as a as a kid.
So I get to in the writing room,I probably talk the most.
I have to be careful I'm not running people over.
And I'll sing that thing like I'm trying out for American
Idol. If it's just three or four of us

(28:53):
in the room, you know, going knowing it's in the wrong key
because I don't care because I know it doesn't matter, you
know? And I know that nobody else is
going to hear it except the people that know that it's OK
for it to be off and they'll tune it, whatever.
And then a ton of people aren't going to hear it, you know?
But yeah, the rest of that is really, really scary to me.
I don't, I don't really know why.
I haven't dug probably deep enough to figure that out.

(29:13):
Well, it could be, I mean, I andI think we're, we're, we're
talking all around it when it comes to confidence, but it
might be that you're part of your drive is your ability to
step back from your current reality and see it and evaluate
it in real time. Some people call it
self-awareness. When you have that as a
superpower, when you can kind ofstep back and and see 3

(29:34):
dimensional into an experience or relationship or an
opportunity or a in your case, even a song or a story, then you
also have the ability to critique that and and be a
little critical. And I'm curious if that's part
of the narrative. Are you pretty sure?
Yeah, on yourself. Or yeah, and I'm kind of
critical on songs for a living. I mean, you know what I mean?

(29:54):
Like, I'm going through. There's 500 decisions every hour
being made when I'm writing, which is, no, not that.
We should do this instead, this note instead.
This phrase doesn't sound good. This is cheesy.
We should flip this. And there's just so much of
that. And I kind of do critique songs
for a living a little bit, you know, with with all the writers
and helping them figure out what's good and what's bad.
And I'll just do that. Even, you know, I kind of do

(30:16):
that all the time, whether it's like anything creative.
I can't help myself. I'm not like, you know, writing
an article about ATV show or movie, but I analyze the writing
of it, analyze the way a song sounds.
It's hard for me to turn that off, you know, and not in a
judgy way, just like, hey, I'm just thinking about all the
stuff and what I would have donedifferent or what, you know, if
something's great. I I really appreciate.
I go really deep in that side and like we, like I said

(30:38):
earlier, I'm, I kind of transform into, you know, into
different people when I write and it's not me being fake.
It's just like, hey, if I was Luke Bryan and I heard this,
what? I want to put this out.
You know what I mean? I'm so used to.
That's the position I have to bein.
If I'm Morgan Wallin, would I take a shot at this type of
song? You know what, I say it like
this. If I was him, well, how would I

(30:58):
say this? You know what?
I tell this story because it's not going to be mine.
It's going to be me, you know, on the writing side in the
parentheses, but it's going to be that artist's song.
And I want it to sound like, youknow, if a writer writes a song,
well, it will sound like that singer wrote it, you know, like
it's their story. So I try hard to dissolve and go
away in songs. My favorite thing is when

(31:20):
somebody, you know, I don't lovewhen somebody says, I could tell
you wrote that or whatever, you did that.
And people think that's like a great compliment, which is
sometimes it's like, oh, that's cool if you're complimenting the
melody or something. But I love when somebody's like,
Oh my gosh, I didn't know you did these songs or whatever.
Like where did that come from, you know?
Because then it's like, hey, I got to dissolve into that artist
and it was something unexpected.And I got to, you know, kind of

(31:40):
play that part and come up with something you wouldn't expect me
to just to just make up on the spot, you know?
Is is the your critical eye which clearly has been effective
and help with your success? Has it ever come at a cost to
other areas of your life? Yeah, I mean, yes, for sure.

(32:01):
I have to, you know, I'm not grumpy about it, but I can see
the see the negative in a, you know, in a situation.
I could be on a great vacation and be planning the next one
while I'm there. You know, I've I've had to learn
how to be in the moment, you know, and I've gotten better at
that, I think. But yeah, there's a lot of times
where it's like, who I would have done this or I would have
chosen to do this song instead of that, or I would have made a

(32:23):
sound this way or like, oh, in this show, I would not have let
that scene be written this way or I would have done that or, or
this. So I have to be careful in my
relationships. I don't treat people, including
my wife or kids, like employees or like their kids on a team
because I'm so used to coaching and so used to like fixing.
I'm kind of that editing guy where it's like somebody might
play me something and be like, something's wrong with this.

(32:43):
What is it? And I'm so used to figuring that
out or having that natural ability that I can, you know,
cross that line. We have to talk about it.
You know, we've had that in marriage where it's like, hey,
I'm not, you know, hey, did you do your jobs?
I did my jobs. We, we're a successful company,
you know, like as, as a team, I have to, to go beyond that, not,
and not be too critical of that or to see the negative and

(33:05):
whatever, you know, whatever is going on, you know, so, and I've
had to fight the, the controlling thing because I'm so
used to being in control in a room of every syllable and every
note and every inflection of a song.
It's a lot of controller, like I'm the head of the company, you
know, I own it all that I pay for out of my checking account.
So a lot of those things I have that control and it's hard to,
to let that control go. I'm coaching the team.

(33:27):
Usually my kids are playing on it.
So I get to call the play and, and then I have to, you know,
God snaps me back and takes control away from me in certain
situations. And that's, that's, that's my
tough pill to swallow, so to speak.
I just, I like to, to be in charge.
I'm more of a natural leader. And if I'm not, then I'll, you
know, I, maybe I would have, maybe I would have ordered this
kind of food instead, or maybe Iwould have done this or I would

(33:49):
have made this decision. And I'm trying to let a lot of
that stuff go so that it doesn'toverwhelm me.
But it's hard. It's it's tough to delegate,
especially in a creative business.
It's tough to let things go. And it's tough for me as a
writer to let the song go. You know, in Nashville
especially, you kind of like puteverything, put your heart into
this thing, and then you drop itoff of the door and knock on the
door and run away. That's how songwriters, you

(34:12):
know, there, there's a hard wallthere.
I don't go into the studio when the producer is making the song.
I don't, I'm not in the meeting when they pick if it should be a
single or not or what the artwork should look like or if
it should go to radio or if it should make the album or what
track it'll be on the, you know,all those decisions.
I'm, you know, I have opinions on all that stuff, but you got
to kind of like raise the raise the kid up best you can and send

(34:33):
them off. And that's kind of how it is,
you know, with literal kids and also with your song kids, you
know, your your babies. You got to be like, hey, I hope
this turns out OK. I did all I could, you know, And
sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, you know?
So that control is always going to be a struggle for me.
I've, I can relate to certain elements of the way you're
describing, the way you kind of see the world and that I feel

(34:55):
like I'm a natural problem solver and I'm a natural, I'm a
type A leader. I, I can, I've always been able
to see patterns and for it gets me in trouble because you can't
Unsee them. So for me, I'm in the business
of helping people navigate partsof their stories and optimizing
their lives and relationships and helping them offload things

(35:16):
that don't necessarily support them.
I also love hospitality and I feel like in a way, in a way,
it's the way I create is curating environments and spaces
for optimizing people's lives. And but when I go on a vacation,
I'm looking for hospitality and I can't not see it.
I can't see what is missing. And sometimes it will if when
things are out of place I can't relax and it could really

(35:39):
contribute me. I could have done this better.
Well, it's the things that I, I'm attuned to.
I really love great service, I love the details, I love
aesthetic, I love the design. And if I see stuff that was just
missing, I, I'll get a little obsessed about it and, and get
in a funnel with it. And I can't really relax.
And that's, it's one of the challenging things about

(35:59):
vacations is usually, not always, but a lot of the I, I
got to where I've looked for hospitality.
I'll, I'll choose hospitality over geography.
Sometimes if I know a place is as a reputation for great
service and they're going to take really good care of you and
they care about the details, they're going to wow you with,
you know, the customer service, then I'll pick it.
But then you go with that expectation.

(36:21):
And it's almost like that expectations out front,
somebody's going to let it down.Oh, yeah, And I'm my thing would
be I have to plan the trips, youknow which, which is good.
And we work, my wife and I as a team.
My family likes for me to plan the trips, but I'm like, no way.
I'll look at itinerary like a preset itinerary and be like,
there's all this wasted time we could have, you know, I'll go
from 8:00 AM to 2:00 AM and wearpeople out, you know, including

(36:41):
my family. I want to squeeze in every drop
of life humanly possible. And sometimes that involves
we're going to skip breakfast and lunch today because we're
going to go see this mountain orwhatever.
And, and they'll have to remind me like, hang on, we need to
eat, we need a rest, we need a break.
And I'm bad at that, you know, and I've, I know that.
So I have to, I have to challenge myself to see that,
you know, but as far as that control thing, I, I definitely

(37:03):
want to be like, I want it to gothis way and I want to be packed
as, as full as it can be. And, and that's, you know,
that's been a struggle sometimes.
So same thing where I'm looking for adventure or new things or
sites. If I'm on a trip, you know, you
have that kind of similar struggle when it comes to
hospitality. But I want to be, I always think
like, well, I would have done this.
We could have seen more stuff, we could have fit in more
things. I'm guilty of that all the time.

(37:23):
It trips me up to in, in interpersonal relationship,
specifically family and parenting is where I'm noticing
it the most right now is I've I've got, I think if you can see
patterns and details and if you haven't figured out how to
moderate or turn the volume down, because my, my playbook
used to be, how do I get rid of that and not identify it and not

(37:45):
see it? And, and now I'm more realistic
because I'm just going to have aseat at the table, which is part
of my personality. And actually it's a superpower
when I use it for good. But when I'm constantly
evaluating how we're tripping upand parenting and I'm nitpicking
things that my wife are doing with my kid or my kids not doing
here, then then it starts to come out as a form of control.
And I think control gets misunderstood a lot.

(38:07):
I think it's it's a well intended attempt to be able to
curate your fireman, curate yourenvironment for good with what
you see could make it great. Yeah, you want what's best out
of the person or the situation or whatever, but I pushed it too
far, you know, when it comes to that.
So I definitely, you know, my wife is the perfect
counterbalance of that because she'll be like, Hey, this is,

(38:27):
you know, this will be fine. You know, if you missed this
deadline or this paper isn't such a such a way she's good at
like making things, not putting too much importance on something
that we're not going to remember10 years from now.
You know, where I'll get really caught up in like this should be
the best to make sure we do thisand have the best this.
And, and she's more about the experience and more of a
hospitality person and curates that environment that people
love. And, and when she sets it up,

(38:50):
it's she's the best at it, you know, so she's good at like
making things not matter or kindof just trusting God maybe a
little more than where I'm making sure everybody gets where
they're supposed to be on time and everything like that.
And then she's like, they'll figure it out, you know?
I've got a counterbalance too, and Vanessa in that she because
a lot of times I'll, you know, Ihave thousands of people a year
come to one of our campuses, like on site what I do and one

(39:13):
of my favorite things to do whenI used to spend a lot more time
on campus. I'm still out there quite a bit
now is I'll get to see people atat our restaurant during
mealtimes or dining times. And inevitably, I hope this
continues to happen because it makes me proud of what we
produce. It's a product that people come
up and say, Hey, this was a three or four days and this has
been really been life changing And and man, your team, you

(39:33):
don't miss a detail. Everything is in place.
I've been really impressed with this, this, this, this, this and
this and that. My little dopamine separates
like I in my perfectionism, I get to scratch that itch a
little. But then sometimes I really made
the mistake early on. I would go home and have that
same expectation in my house that everything's going to be in
place and when everybody walks in, they're not going to see

(39:53):
anything out of place. And, and my wife is just the
opposite. She's completely comfortable.
This happened to us over the weekend where she had a, my
daughter had a friend come over to play and this was a another
mom that goes to the same schoolas our kids and she came out.
It's the first time she'd been at the house we're in.
And the house was a mess. I mean, the kitchen aisle was
full of stuff. And what I see is like, are we

(40:16):
really going to tour somebody orwalk them through our house when
it looks like this? And and Vanessa's like, well,
this is life. This looks like life.
I love the way our house looks. And so, so I would say if you're
out there listening, a lot of times you're, you're looking in
a relationship or somebody that's completely aligned with
you. And if you'll go into it with an
open stance, you'll find somebody that thinks completely

(40:36):
different from you. And it and it will be 1 of the
biggest fights of your life to get to a place where you start
to realize that that is on purpose.
Yeah, yeah. That that's the plan.
And you'll and you'll realize how crazy it would drive you,
you know, if you're with somebody just like you, you
know, or just like me. If I was somebody just like me,
it would be horrible. So again, that counterbalance

(40:57):
is, is necessary, like the calmness, you know, that she
brings or just like this simple joy of this or whatever.
And she, you know, she's taking care of so many things.
But again, I just have to to remember with the kids in her
that it's that it's not a company.
I think like a company, you know, like a team, like, Hey,
how we're going to succeed today.
What are we going to accomplish?You know, what are we going to
get done? And if not careful, I'll, I'll

(41:20):
skip out on some good calm, you know, life moments.
You know, we can do less and still have a great day, a great
night. We don't just squeeze it all in.
When you, when you go into a room, 'cause I'm, I'm going to
go back and forth between life and, and in our profession, your
profession, 'cause I do think with the way you're wired and
the anomaly that we've described, which is you're in a
small percentage of people who have had extreme commercial

(41:43):
success and yet are very unknownand who they are.
And if there's not a story out there, people are going to make
a story up. And, and people, I've seen
people do that with you over theyears that people think a lot of
different things and don't really know.
And, and I guess I'm guilty of it too.
Before I got to know you, I justyou, you're here in town is
like, here's the way Ashley is. And it wasn't all bad.
It was just, I mean, you're, youkind of have the reputation of

(42:05):
you're a machine. Like there's not a human in
there. You just go in and it's all
tactical and, and very strategic.
And I do think that's probably some of your gifting what makes
you really unique and good. But there's also a really great
human behind the craft that I, if I had any agenda today, I'd
love for people to know it more because I think you're entering

(42:25):
a season and we're going to get to that.
What where we, we, we now have had success in both of our
industries and ours crossover inan interesting way because I've
spent a lot of time in yours. And, and I think we're both
problem solvers and we're seeingthings that came at a cost to us
and still come at a cost to us and the people that we love and
connect with and do work with and do life with.

(42:46):
And, and we think we might be able to prevent that or make it
better. And so in a sense, I think
you're getting into this part ofyour career where it's not like
you're not, you're as relevant as you've ever been.
You're still turning out number ones every day, publishing
companies growing. So that's not slowing down, but
I think what lights your fuse a little bit more, at least in the
conversations we've had in the last couple years, is that's all

(43:07):
great. And I'm realizing that God has
created me to be something more than that.
And I want to leave a legacy andan influence right now that I
hope goes well beyond me and makes this landscape better for
creatives. Why does that stuff matter to?
You, I get fixated on that actually, you know, because
anytime you, you know, anytime you, you don't have a goal of
having some success in something.
And you know, there's that part of your brain that doesn't think

(43:28):
you'll ever really get there. You know, most people don't.
So you're, you're not prepared for like, oh, we kind of did,
you know, we overachieved, right?
I, I got, you know, getting intosomething like songwriting Hall
of Fame. That wasn't even a goal I set,
you know, ever. And it's just like, hey, this
time and it I am thankfully relevant and I've lasted longer
than most, but it's it's happening, you know, like I'm
trying to prepare for eventually, whether that's in a

(43:51):
year or ten years or whenever itis that phasing out and the
people that are, you know, waiting to to be the people that
people call to get in the room. So, you know, and thankfully we
published a lot of those guys and it's I mean, it happens now,
you know what I mean? I'm not the top dog on the
songwriting chart this week or whatever it is.
I don't know where I am, you know, not not at there where I'm
used to be in for the last few years.
So that's, that's there and I'm comfortable with that.

(44:12):
And we, and I've already kind oftransitioned over into being
more of a publisher. And again, thankfully I'm still
writing stuff I love and, and I'm and it's having success, but
I am always thinking about like it, am I?
What's the best use of my time today?
Again, the legacy, how do I makeit not a list of the songs I've
written when you know, when I'm gone and there's an article
about me, you know, how can I accomplish that?

(44:33):
And will that ever even happen? And how can that, how can I be
known for, you know, more than that?
So I do get fixated on that a lot.
But but yeah, I mean, you're right.
There is some mystery probably with me because I'm not because
usually somebody's like, oh, that person's a killer guitarist
or a killer singer. He makes great tracks.
And I'm doing that, that job of melody and lyric where it's hard

(44:54):
to be like, oh, that person really rhymes, cool stuff
together. You know, it's just, it's just
not like a a great, there's not great descriptors for for guys
like me, but but we kind of knowwhat we're doing when we get in
there. And then there's always the
people that think, OK, with thismuch success, it's because
you're either friends with everybody or you figured out a
secret hack. What's the formula?
People ask me stuff like that. And there are little things, to

(45:15):
be honest. There are little little tricks
and rhyme things and cadence things and, and different rules
of writing that I do use and that we all use as songwriters.
They can help something be catchier.
But there's no secret recipe forit, you know?
Otherwise I would just write five days a year and write the
five hits those days instead of missing on the other 360 days,
you know, And there's been there's it's it's it's wild.

(45:36):
It's been funny when people don't know me at all and think
like, oh, well, you know, he hasthis.
He has a promotion department that that contributes to the
song. That's why they pick his songs
as singles because he pays the label this or does that like
stuff that I don't even know? I mean, it's not even possible.
But how I'm too cheap to ever dothat, first of all.
But I've heard some funny things.
And writers will come in the room and be like, Hey, this what
I heard about you in this session.

(45:57):
Especially if it's newer, younger people that don't know
me and it's, it's hilarious things and they're laughing
about it. But I'm also, there's a part of
me that's like, I don't want people to think I'm trying to,
you know, that I care that much about the success and the
numbers and the goals and the cheat codes or whatever that I
that I have any of those, you know, those aren't possible and
I definitely don't have any. I wish I did.
But yes, hearing some of that stuff, you can be hurtful

(46:18):
sometimes it can be like, man, you just any way to tear down
somebody that's kind of at the top of their game.
We see that in society in general.
So that's not a, that's not likehitting me as a mystery or like
as a, as a surprise, I guess. But for me, I, I write fast.
So I do have the reputation for and that's not a great thing.
Sometimes I miss stuff, you know, I just, I'm so ADD and so

(46:39):
like have to get it out in bursts that I write pretty
quick. And then that a lot of that
comes from me having to be at a gym at 2:30 or 3:00 to coach my
kids team and nobody showed up till 11:30.
So I got to get this song done real quick.
Some of that even just comes from regular life and other
circumstances. But I do like to write in verse
and I can get really excited about it and I kind of pace

(46:59):
around and there's just some some different things I do.
I think that that had people under the assumption that I'm
just like a machine. I want to knock it out on to the
next, next song, next song, nextsong.
And some of that stuff's true. I do like to push at the end.
I like to spend the last half hour or so trying to write
something out of the clear blue sky.
You know, just like let's make up a, a bonus song here at the
end. All the stuff we've been
thinking about, let's throw it all away and just see what comes

(47:21):
out. And we've got a lot of hits by
doing that, you know, kind of turning off all the what's.
A hitter that way. Oh man, oh, there's one song
that Weezer ended up recording those up for Best Rock Song
Grammy that I think I'll did a 10 minute freestyle at the end
of the session just by the titlein my phone and just yelled out
complete randomness over this track.
And then it ended up getting to them somehow and being finished

(47:43):
and it was awesome. You know, got to be a part of
that, which that's a classic group that I'm really happy to
have a song on and have their single and as a #1 alternative
song and all this stuff. It's happened a few times
because there's something to turn in your brain off.
It's weird because when you write, you have to fire up one
side of it and has to be on highand there's part of it you got
to turn off. It's weird because it has to
feel natural. You know, those songs that the

(48:04):
simplest song sometimes take thelongest because it's hard to
make a song sound that easy, like you're just rolling it out,
you know, But for me, there's there's and, and, and of course,
now I'm further along in my lifeand in my, you know, career.
And so I'm not like having to pay the, you know, grocery
bills, you know, with pay for the grocery with the next hit.
And they're that a little bit ofthat financial pressure is off.

(48:26):
So I definitely love to talk. These are my friends.
So the same people I'm writing songs with are the same people
that I am watching basketball playoffs with or playing
pickleball with. We're talking about life with or
doing our little fake therapy sessions.
We're inventing about something together that I'm going to the
beach with. You know, those are the same
people I've I create songs with.And that gets tricky, you know,

(48:48):
blurring those lines. I love it.
And at the same time, it can be tricky because you may think
somebody's your friend and they're not.
Or do you know, you may feel used and that's OK because
you're using them too and that y'all can still be friends.
All that stuff really is taking me kind of the last 2025 years
to sort out, you know, and figure out why am I doing this?
What am I doing this for? Who cares about me?

(49:09):
Who doesn't, who's using me? Those are all natural things you
go you go through as a creator. And so I'm, I'm still learning
how to deal with all that stuff.It can, it can be hurtful.
You know, why didn't I get askedto be at this camp?
Or why didn't I, you know, why didn't they pick my song for
this? Or why didn't this person want
to, you know, choose me to be the person to come in the room
with them and do that? It's constantly that kind of
stuff. It never goes away.

(49:30):
Even if I'm kind of been at the top for a while.
It doesn't. It does not mean that that
doesn't still happen, you know, on a weekly basis.
Let's talk about that for a minute, because I do think that
it's interesting that most of my, but I, I overlap with your
social circle a lot too. We have a lot of mutual friends
and most songwriters. One of the things I love about
them I love about creatives in general.
I mean, I married a creative is is there highly sensitive and

(49:53):
good and bad, good and good and bad?
And and yet when you put sensitivity with rejection,
which you're, it's going one of the highest rejection rates of
any professional. In the world.
That's a recipe for, you know, alot of the challenges that we,
we see our buddies struggle withthat we've struggled with and oh
for sure. How do you have you learned to
navigate projection? You know, I mean, I would be

(50:15):
lying if I said I'd learned how to how to deal with it.
I don't think you ever do. It's, it's really tough, you
know, there. I mean, in the last two weeks, I
had a little cluster of songs that I sent to an artist, the
producer, the manager, the headsof labels, the anybody.
I not usually don't even do that.
Usually, you know, laying in my tape room.
Team Caroline, Catherine have great employees.
They take care of a lot of that.Take that off my plate.

(50:37):
But I was just so excited about these songs.
I kind of send them to everybodyand got no response from
anybody. And that's after having, you
know, however many hits, you know what I mean?
Just that part doesn't go away. And that I think culturally I
even feel for my kids too, because it's just like a very
accepted thing now to send somebody a message or to call
somebody and not hear back. And it's kind of like, I don't

(50:58):
know if it's not even seen as rude sometimes, you know, it's
just like, I'm just going to letthat go.
And that is tough. I'm not built for that.
You know, I'm not wired for that.
And I'm guilty of it. Sometimes I don't see a text and
I'm like, Hey, I try to tell everybody that knows me, please,
you're not bugging me. You got to remind me.
You got to nudge me. I got a lot of stuff going on,
but just the, the, the kind of ghost in them out or not
responding to something after you pour your heart into it.

(51:19):
I don't think songwriters ever get used to that.
And, and the, and I've tried to go through little phases where
I'm like, all right, I'm not going to care either.
You know, I'm just going to throw it out there and do
whatever. And then it's just, it's just
bull, you know, like it's not that's not real, because I do
care. I want them to hear it.
You know, I put a day into the song.
I want to see, you know, I want it to be heard and I want
somebody to hopefully like it. You know, we all are still those

(51:39):
kids that want somebody to like what we made-up.
You know, we're painting a picture for a kindergartner and
like, we want it on the fridge. We want our songs to be heard
and we want them to be out. So I don't think that ever goes
away. And I think even though it's
hard, I think that would be weird if it did.
You know, it would be weird if that part didn't light me up
anymore. You know, if I could get a song,
if I could find out I got a songrecorded by somebody and I'm

(52:01):
like, cool, whatever. You know, like I'm, I'm like,
hey, I'm ready to like, let's celebrate that.
Let's do it. In fact, I'm always a proponent
of that. I'm like, hey, guys, we can't
don't be too cool to celebrate your hits, your cuts.
Somebody spent time and money going in the studio to record
your song over everybody else's in that time frame.
So let's celebrate that and and really appreciate the privilege

(52:23):
we have to be creators and the fact that people are even
listening to these sometimes. But when it when it doesn't go
our way or they pick one's a different single over over mine
or whatever it is, it stings. Doesn't matter how many you
have, they're all individual. They're all their own thing, you
know, so that feeling doesn't you don't get numb to that
rejection as much as sometimes Iwish you did.
You know, it still stings a little bit.

(52:43):
Now, obviously it, you know, sometimes when it's a matter of
putting bread on the table, it'sdifferent, you know, early
onwards, like, hey, if I don't get this hit, then I cannot
afford this next rent, you know,payment that is different.
Obviously I'm in a different place.
I can't complain about that and I would never complain about any
of this. But I would also be lying if I
said that it doesn't, you know, sting and hurt a little bit or

(53:04):
get me down. If an artist decides that I'm
not one of the I'm not in their circle anymore of the people
they enjoy creating with. Or if they decide they they
don't have time to listen that song for three minutes or, or
like, even though if I've had hits on them and I send them
something else. Hey, man, listen to this, check
this out. And sometimes in my head, they
may be on a trip, fishing trip with their kids.
I have no idea, you know, and totally miss it.

(53:25):
They may have a new number. But as a songwriter, like you
said, as a sensitive creative, which we kind of have to be to
get good songs, then we're always going to be like, oh, I'm
not cool anymore or I'm not as good as I was, or they don't
care, you know what I mean? That's just always, or they
found they've moved on to the next thing and that's, that's
always, that's just part of it, you know, And I would tell any
songwriter that is like, that part doesn't go away and it kind

(53:48):
of can't go away because you gotto be locked into your emotions
and your feelings. That's why you can write songs
as well as you can. And so you can't deny that you
just got to have enough friends that you can be like, oh man,
and just be honest about it and tell him like, man, be
vulnerable. Tell him how it hurt.
They'll tell you they're all going through the same thing
with somebody in some camp somewhere.
So I just encourage that just tolike throw it out there, talk
about it and then and then kind of move on down the line.

(54:11):
Well, there's a lot of wisdom inwhat you just said, and I want
to highlight it because I think it's important for people,
whether they do this for a living or not.
Because I think now that most people are in social media in
some way, if you have one follower, 3 followers or
thousands, it doesn't matter, then you're prone to putting
something out there in a vulnerable way and it being
perceived in a certain way, which is you could get a taste

(54:33):
of rejection or judgment or criticism.
You will, you will. And I like what you said is it
can't really go away because we've got to feel the full scope
of our emotions and feelings to be able to be authentic and
honest with our message. So we can't just feel the good
ones and run from the bad ones, the, the hurt, the rejection,
the whatever might come with it,sadness, frustration, anger, We
got to be able to feel them. I'll look at rejection a little

(54:55):
bit like I'll look at grief in that you, you it, it, it has to
have a seat at the table. And grief often gets talked
about. It's just hole in the soul when
you lose something or somebody really important to you and
people think, when does the holego away?
And my comments always, well, itdoesn't, but you grow around it
the more you engage with it. And I think the same happens
with the rejection, or at least with me, I can say is with time

(55:18):
and experience and people that Itrust that I can process with,
it still hurts. It still stings.
And it is a given in the business.
It is a given in the business. And even for me, who's got this
unusual adjacent role to so manyartists and songwriters, and
there's no way you don't developinterpersonal relationships with
these people and do a lot of social things with them.

(55:39):
That's how in some ways I've become effective is to have
trust and connection and and then the pace that they move and
the the amount of eyes and ears and people in the phones, they
don't have the bandwidth or capacity to keep up with a lot
of times. For humans are not created for
that, I don't think. I don't either and it's easier
once you get under the hood sometimes to depersonalize the

(56:03):
the cliffhanger tax when you don't hear back, 'cause you're
like, OK, I know I've got context, but even if you have
context, it's still, it's a personal note sometimes.
But I have, I have learned over time to realize the more I've
grown with experience and wisdom, that it doesn't land as
personally as it used to. But it still feels personal.
I don't think we can get around.That and the same thing with me
where I'm just like, hey, I was,I was the writer that got

(56:25):
brought into this camp. Every, every artist I get to
work with. I was afforded that opportunity
and somebody probably had to kind of get out for me to get
in. And it's just the natural scope
of it. And you just find more stuff and
you just like you said, you learn, you mature, you know, and
of course I'm saying this, I know whoever's listening is
going to be like, dude, you get the highest percentage songs
recorded of most people in town.And I know that I realize that.

(56:47):
But if that's 5%, then they're still a 95%, you know, rejection
rate, kind of like baseball, youknow, where they show your Tony
has the best game anybody's everhad it three home runs in a game
before that is 3 or 29. I mean, that's and he's amazing,
you know what I mean? That's how many hits he had in
the the month before. You're the same thing with
Jordan and with Kobe and they you hear about their shot

(57:09):
percentage. You don't hear about how many
shots they actually took. Exactly.
And that's part of it. And you just got to kind of roll
on in that. And I think just having friends,
they go beyond the writing room is, is just vital, you know,
people that'll will hear you out.
They got to be the right people.And again, I'm not complaining
about that, but it's, it's also like, why am I doing this?
I've, I've learned a few things throughout the process, which is

(57:31):
like, yes, it's OK if somebody is using you because you can
make up cool rhyming words and melodies.
My wife helped me with this because I was like, man,
sometimes I just feel used. Like if I couldn't do this
thing, then this person wouldn'tbe friends with me, you know,
And she's like, OK, play that out completely.
Like I wouldn't be friends with you if you didn't do what you do
for a living. I wouldn't know who you are, you

(57:51):
know. So are we using each other in
some respect mutually Sure. You know, right now, you know,
or whatever. That's OK.
She's like, that's not always bad.
Sometimes you're friends with somebody because you both have
an interest in basketball. If he didn't, if that guy wasn't
good at basketball, you wouldn'tbe his friend because you
wouldn't even know him. So she's helped me to kind of
separate that. It's OK.
It's just throughout the relationship, can you maintain
that friendship even when somebody's having success?

(58:12):
Somebody's not, you know, somebody's involved in a project
and you're not can can you just become good enough friends to
supersede all that stuff once, even if you initially are
brought into that relationship because of your skill set for
some reason? And I've struggled with that.
You know, another thing I've done is, is realize that people
have a lot going on, you know, so like, like, is it the most

(58:32):
important thing that that person, you know, should I not
get offended that that person didn't respond to my song in two
days that I sent? I've now gotten to the point at
first, I used to really, really,really bother me and it so does
sometimes. But now I also realize, Oh,
shoot, I missed this text when one of my writers be like, Hey,
what did you think about that? I'm like, I didn't know you sent
that, you know, so it's also been brought to my attention and
like, Hey, do I do the same thing?
I don't mean it, which means sometimes terms, they don't mean

(58:54):
it bad either. Another thing is that I've
learned that I've, I've been telling writers this a lot
lately for some reason, is to not set goals that are out of
your control. I think that solves a ton of
problems as a creative and the disappoint, the ledge, the
distance you're falling off, youknow what I mean, where it's not
a Cliff now it's just a little step.
You can handle it. If I set a goal to win a Grammy

(59:17):
Award, I don't pick who wins Grammy Awards, You know what I
mean? I get, maybe I get a vote, I
guess out of a billion or however many people do it.
I've never won one. That's not up to me.
You know, I didn't even get to pick the song that somebody
nominated, you know what I mean?Like I I can't just.
Out of curiosity, how many timesyou've been nominated?
I don't know, lost count 10, I mean like a bunch 15.

(59:37):
I don't know, something like that.
Never won ACMA, never won a songof the year on that kind of
thing. I did win ACM song of the year
one time with with our buddy Jesse, which is amazing, but it
was also like, I don't know, I Ijust which I get to watch.
That was she had me in heads Carolina, the Colson Del Song
and that was fun, but also like the.
Highs down. TR was in on that one too, yeah.

(59:58):
Yeah, yeah, TR and us and Cole and and then the writers of the
Heads Carolina song who? That's awesome for them.
I need somebody to do that to one of my songs.
Now I'm getting to that age where somebody's going to flip
one of my old songs and I get toride along, get a get a free
ride. But yeah, so so things like
that, like setting those goals is just really tough.
Like even setting a goal to get a number one or a lot of or a
lot of people have a goal to getsomething called a triple play,

(01:00:20):
which like we have 3 number onesin a year.
And my writers be like, I reallywant this worse than anything.
And I'm like, man, you, you haveto just write the Best Song that
God and the room and your friends and you can can do that
day and go to the house, you know, and so much, even if it's
the Best Song, maybe you wrote asummer song and they need a song

(01:00:40):
that's going to come out in the fall and winter.
Even if your song is better, maybe Taylor Swift puts out an
album and you can't get to #1 because she's in the top one
through 15. Maybe somebody else puts out a
song that blocks you out of it. Going one.
There's plenty of, I have a lot of better songs that have gone
to 29105 then some of the ones that have gone to 1.
You know, so many things have tohappen with that.
It's like, Oh my gosh, who else has out a song right now?

(01:01:01):
Does Morgan have a song out right now?
Does supposed to have one that'slike just going to park up there
for a while. And and I've been trying to
teach that and also adhere to itmyself where it's like if you
have a goal of winning, especially an award that's
that's voted on by members of the music community who have an
agenda, which is what they are, you know, not like it's cheating
or anything. You're just like, hey, there's
a, you know, a artist could be on a bigger label that has more

(01:01:24):
votes. And so that may be a song that
one of the artists, you know, sings is the one that's going to
get the award. I've always.
We all know that. Stuff happens.
And. And so I have, yeah, Yeah, I've
been good at that. If I get nominated for a Grammy
or a show, it's just an excuse for my wife to look amazing and
us to have a date. And I never think it's going to
happen. You know, it's like I've I've
chosen to not make those the goals.

(01:01:45):
When somebody says how many number ones, how many number
ones you can get to 100, I'm like, first of all, that sounds
crazy. No, I mean, we'll see.
I've no idea, you know what I mean?
Maybe I've already written them,maybe I never will.
But any of those things that arenumeric like that are just very
dangerous, especially when somebody gets up there on stage
and gets an award and says, like, this is all I ever wanted.
And this, this means more to me than anything in the world.

(01:02:06):
I'm like, man, what if you didn't get that?
That's a hard fall, you know, because it's wasn't totally up
to you to get that. You know, that has to get
through so many people. So I can't really, you know,
have that goal or I try not to have those goals that I can't do
anything about that I can't control, you know, So if I want
to be the ASCAP songwriter here,that's great because that means
I had the most songs on the radio that year or whatever, and

(01:02:27):
that's cool. But maybe something happens
where I'm not that or I don't get that.
It's just not in my control. The only way I can get that is
by not thinking about that. You know, it's almost like if I
don't focus on it and write the most best songs with as much
hard as I can, you know, with the right people and try to get
in the right rooms and try to dothe right thing, then that's,
that's kind of all we can do. You know, my goal when people

(01:02:48):
ask my goal it was to be able towrite songwriter on my taxes and
not have to get a real job. And, and nothing, no #1 no,
anything I've I've gotten has has beaten that feeling of like
I get to, I get the privilege todo this.
People will listen to these songs and that's what I have to
do till I go home. You know, I've worked on a roof,

(01:03:09):
I've worked construction in the summer.
I've dug A ditch. I don't want to do that.
And so and and that's great. And that may be whatever
somebody's occupation is it. It could be somebody might hate
music. You know, they would, they
would, they would hate to do what I do and tinker with songs
all day. It sounds terrible to them, but
but what I love doing, I'm getting to do.
And I just feel like that, you know, the rest of it is, is
gravy. And I am very driven and

(01:03:31):
intentional. And a lot of people will say
like he's the hardest working guy I know, but man, I don't
work on weekends. I go home at the end of the day.
I'm not, you know, it's different.
My daughter, the best thing anybody's ever said about me on
a stage happened in New York this past June when my daughter
got up there and, and we'd neverdiscussed this, but she got up
there on stage and this is not abrag at all, but that was like a

(01:03:54):
very reflective moment for me toget in the all genre songwriter
Hall of Fame. That was it.
I never set that goal because I didn't know it existed when I'm
a kid, you know, and I was just like, OK, this is a we made it a
big deal. We invited a ton of people.
I spent all kinds of money, you know, it's, it's expensive to
celebrate yourself, you know, sowe, we did all that.
But I had my parents and my wife's parents, everybody like
at this at this place in New York City and putting a bunch of

(01:04:15):
Kentuckians in New York City is just a whole, you know,
documentary waiting to happen anyway.
So that that part of it was funny and it was just a fun
celebratory night. I know that the people that came
we're not there because they think I can get them on a
record, even if they're songwriters.
I know that these are people that have played a part of my
career throughout. It was just really, really
special. But my daughter got up there.
I don't even know why. I don't know why she knew and

(01:04:37):
why God told her that I needed to hear this, but just gets up
there and says, I don't know thequote.
I wish I I memorized it. But she basically says she she's
the one that talks about me, which is wild She's not shy
about it at all. Very strange like we have very.
I would have freaked out. I would have never done that.
What she did. She like sang a song and talked
like it was nothing didn't even appear nervous.
I would have been going crazy, but she didn't just basically

(01:04:59):
said hey, this is you know, y'all know this guy as as this
in the room working hard doing all this stuff.
And she said, but I've gone to abunch of like number one parties
and things and everybody just says that he's like you said,
like a machinery always is just like working all the time and
that works everybody and does all that stuff and puts his all
into this. And she just said we have a

(01:05:20):
different experience. You know we have a we had a
different experience of him. He never missed anything, you
know, like all the games. I remember him leaving sessions
with artists to make sure that they got to this place on time.
Us staying up, having conversations, us hanging out,
playing Mario Kart instead. Any day out, any parents
weekend. Him not missing, him choosing
not go to the thing. And again, I'm not being like,

(01:05:40):
oh, look at me at all. But it just hit me in such a way
of like, OK, that's what I need.That's how I want to be.
No, you know, it's like, is it important to me?
Yes. Am I going to write a song when
we leave here? I don't have to, but I probably
will because I love it. I'm a little bit addicted to it,
if I'm being honest, but I know that when I get home, there's a
life, you know, waiting there for me that God's put together

(01:06:00):
where I'm going to get to see mywife and Kyler and and see how
their day was. And it's just going to be better
than than anything I can, you know, achieve career wise.
You know, the music's afforded us a lot of cool things.
We got to see the world the the most of which I think is I get
to make my own hours and get to go with the kids to wherever I
need to go or be a chaperone on a field trip.
You know, growing up, all those little things have been

(01:06:21):
important. But like you said, there
definitely is a is more to the machine, so to speak, And I'm
trying to figure it all out and it is an emotional mess.
And I'm very, I'm always, you know, nervous and ADD and all
over the place and all over the room.
And I'm I'm in all of the fact that it's all come together
enough times that I can make career out of it.

(01:06:41):
That was so good, and I think it's important for some of
people to hear because I think there's a bit of a myth that
says you got to choose one of the other.
You got to either be really successful in a certain vocation
or you got to have a life. And I remember facing that, that
bridge when I was on the way up in mental health.

(01:07:03):
And I, I remember the mentors and the people I were seeing
that were winning the awards that were on the back half of
their career that had done, written the books and done all
the things many of those people poured into me.
And I was looking up to what they had accomplished
vocationally. And but then when I looked under
the hood, I was like, I don't want to emulate necessarily what
they've accomplished personally because they're estranged from

(01:07:25):
their adult kids, they're on their fifth marriage, whatever.
And not not everybody. I'm just saying, I, I looked at
all that and I remember being, you know, in my late 20s
thinking I got a decision to make because it feels like I can
go do that, but I'm also going to have to give this up.
And I was like, that can't be right.
There's got to be a way to figure out how to do both.
And I, I'm here. I, I'm somebody too that is on

(01:07:45):
the stride. Don't get it right all the time,
but I am determined on some of the stuff that I've turned away.
Was scary for me to turn away this year.
Opportunities, you know, relationships, things I could
have gone to and met somebody that could have opened big doors
and been really an interesting experience.
A life experience I tell my great grandkids about, but it
didn't seem more important for me than to miss AT ball game.

(01:08:07):
And I, and the reason I know that I'm glad you got this
perspective too, is because I'vespent enough time looking at
what matters to people at the end of life.
And people get crystal clear at the end of life.
If you have the luxury of of, ofbeing, you know, transitioning
or passing in that way, people get crystal clear.
And they're not talking about the resumes, not talking about

(01:08:28):
the Grammy Awards. They're recalling the moment the
daughter stood up and said, and you crushed it.
As a dad, you didn't miss anything.
You're always there. I saw more pride come out of you
when you were telling me that than anything you've talked
about so far. And I want you to hear if you're
out there, that no matter what you're doing, if you're chasing
songs or chasing psychology or chasing whatever, that if you

(01:08:50):
will focus on life outside of your profession and realize
don't aren't that those aren't the same things, but they're,
they can dance together in a really beautiful way, then life
will become fulfilling. And I believe there's a
difference between happiness andfulfillment.
I think happiness is an emotion that too many people chase.
It's a feeling and underneath itis fulfillment, which is harder,

(01:09:14):
which is slower, it's harder to post about, but it's
sustainable. And, and, and I believe that
recipe is really important. And what else you said I really
liked was prior to that was you were talking about how you set
aside assumptions and expectations as best you can
when you go into environments. And when assumptions and
expectations are secondary and not out front, it leaves room

(01:09:37):
for gratitude. And I heard you say, yeah, when
I go to the Grammys now, insteadof feeling victimized by 15
nominations and no wins, I'm like, I get to go to the Grammys
with my wife and she's beautifuland dressed up.
Get to. And that it's hard.
It's it's hard to sustain that. But there's a rhythm that helps
people get there. And I think if you could be
thoughtful and think about, OK, I don't need to come in with

(01:09:59):
this expectation with a reasonable goal and look at I've
got a seat at the table. Same thing we do when we're
coaching our kids on the way up is you, you know, right now my
son is obsessed with sports. So he wants to be one of his two
heroes. It's Steph Curry or Patrick
Holmes. That's who he wants to be.
He's he's kind of obsessed with it.
And I don't know if it's a good thing or bad thing.
I'm watching. I mean, he's literally watching
old tapes of them. And but that's what he's fixated

(01:10:23):
on is NBANFL and and I'm having to right size that expectation
and saying there are certain things you can do to position
yourself to potentially play at that level.
And there's certain things that you do that's completely out of
your control. And it's the obvious ones, their
size and speed and stuff like that.
But what you can do is this, because here's what they did,
Steph Curry when he was your age, he shot this many shots in

(01:10:46):
in the driveway before he went to bed at night.
You can do those things. You can do the fundamental
things. That's the same thing with
songwriting too. I mean, that completely
translates, I think, you know? So if I'm advising riders, it's
that same kind of thing. Not going to y'all quit.
Well, I think where I was going was, you know, excavating and
finding and sustaining a humble stance about how we show up in

(01:11:07):
the world is a huge part of our,I think, a successful foundation
that helps people get into fulfillment.
And sometimes it gets elusive. Sometimes it gets hard to do.
I want to talk about that because you called me.
I don't know, we've, we've had several great conversations over
the years, but this was one whenyou were coming up on what was

(01:11:29):
going to likely land as your 80th number one.
I know you don't like talking about the numbers and all that
stuff, but I remember then you if I were talking to you now and
it's fun to see how you are so honest about your process
because I would say you're pretty in love with your
profession if you strip it all back.
And you said when I put my name as a songwriter on the tax, I

(01:11:53):
realize how lucky I am. That must end.
But that particular day, it was like you weren't feeling as
excited about your profession. You were in a little bit of a,
you know, challenge with it. You're man, I'm challenged, but
I've been doing it. And it feels like another
milestone that I should feel more grateful for.
And and you, you corrected. It's like, no, don't get me
wrong, I'm incredibly grateful, but I'm asking the question.
And so many people I know ask this question when they get to

(01:12:15):
the kind of the Mount Rushmore, their profession is like, why
doesn't it feel like enough, right?
We had a great conversation about that in the song.
Ironically was was called I'm not OK.
It's kind of mental health anthem.
And, and you and I both were wrestling with that thing as we
were talking as buddies that day.
And and, and, and for you, it was it became important that I

(01:12:36):
want to do more than just be celebrated for winning for for
getting this accomplishment. I want to make sure it's
meaningful in the same way that you're applying and what your
daughter's message you hope thatcould translate.
You said lately I feel like I'm just getting this onslaught of
songwriters processing what's struggling in their life in the
rooms so many people, you know, have.
And I think I think in part thattransition from people coming to

(01:13:01):
you as the how do I make a song work?
And how do I get a song cut to and I'm really struggling.
I'm lonely, I'm struggling with alcohol.
I'm struggling with is in part because you've shifted and
changed and opened yourself up alittle bit and got more in tune
with who you are. And you're not just seen as
somebody who can help somebody commercial.
You're seen as somebody who can help somebody because you made

(01:13:23):
time to go be with your family and have a life outside of your
work. So people look to you.
Sometimes it's a little bit of aNorth Star, but a lot of people
don't even know that part of your story.
But enough do that they're asking now and the number of
people you've helped even prior to start starting the the OK
Project and the Creative SupportNetwork, which we'll talk about
in a minute. You were calling me about so
many people or so many people are calling me about, hey, I was

(01:13:44):
in a session with Ashley and hadthis conversation.
He said to call you and do this.What, what are you saying and
why do you think people are coming to you?
A and what are you hearing? What are some themes you're
hearing from creatives? I mean, I, I, you know,
honestly, I have made more time in the last few years.
I do think there for a while I was in and out.
I was a little more like a machine of just like I don't get

(01:14:05):
this done and get up out of hereso I can get to the game or get
home or get whatever. I think, I do think I cost
myself some some time that I could have spent any
conversation, you know, with people.
And then I think after a while Ijust felt like God was saying
like, Hey, we you have to make room for this day is going to be
what it is. If you write a song, write a
song. If you talk a little time, you
talk a little time. I'm better at that now, you
know, and don't get me wrong, ifwe're going to play the game,

(01:14:28):
it's fun to win, you know, So ifwe're putting points on board
and I'm putting in this time like I, I want to, it doesn't
mean like we're just going to write a bad song.
But there's always room on the front, middle back.
We, there's been so many times in the past few years where
where a 2 minute conversation turns into an hour and a half
one with the other people in theroom And then, and they're all
different. You know, it could be people
asking like you said advice on this or that and, and, and now

(01:14:51):
the questions have changed a little bit instead of like, hey,
how do you figure out this rhythm?
How did you make this melody do this?
Or what do you think this is? Or how did you make this song
work or why did they record thisand now it's changed.
I definitely hear like, Hey, howare you pulling it off where you
have a cool fun wife? Y'all playing pickleball,
hanging out your normalcy? Yeah, I'm definitely not normal.

(01:15:11):
I'm definitely a weirdo. But as far as us like the
appearance, I guess of just having these relationships with
my kids and my wife and then also having the success.
So those those questions are coming up now.
I just think people are more open just because mental health
is something that's on the tablea little more than it used to
be. So those conversations so, you
know, happen a little more often.
But you know, I would just say stuff in rooms like instead of

(01:15:32):
like, I don't know, I mean, the conversations start to angle
themselves more toward vulnerability.
I think when somebody's like, man, I didn't, I thought I was
going to get this single. I didn't get it.
And instead of just going like, well, that sucks.
What else you got? Let's go.
You know, then there, there's just a little, I feel like
everybody's more aware and there's a pause of like, oh,
man, that's you know, that that that's rough or whatever, or, or

(01:15:52):
this or hey, wouldn't this the best thing ever?
And I can say, well, actually itkind of was more empty than I
thought I thought it was going to be all the things I really
struggle with this. Or I could, you know, I've I've
mentioned to people and been like, man, did you write with so
and so or did you have this session?
And I may just off the cuff mention that like, yeah, I
remember sat in my car for like 10-15 minutes before I went in
there. I was just freaked out because I
don't have anything to bring to the table.

(01:16:13):
And they would just say like, what?
And I was like, yeah, I didn't, I didn't think I was there to be
there. I didn't have anything to say
that day. I was kind of nervous about it
the night before. And they just didn't.
They thought I was over that. They thought that was something
you get over, you know, or like,Hey, I just didn't bring it that
day. I'm, I'm, or these people are
working on this thing. I'm not invited to this camp.
And their perception to me was like, you're invited to
everything. You always have the answer.

(01:16:33):
You always have the song, you always get the single, always
get the hit. And then there's just more
transparency where I, I was like, hey, I need to be more
transparent because these people, this is not true, you
know, And so it just leads honest conversation.
I mean, they naturally happen. I can't even pinpoint right now,
like think of, of stuff I would put out there that, you know,
that we've talked about. But but I may just mention that

(01:16:53):
I have trouble sleeping. You know, I'll be like, oh man,
you should take this. Why do you?
And, and immediately people say,well, that's 'cause you just
can't get melodies out of my head.
That does happen occasionally where I can't get something out
of my head, but I don't, that's not what's causing me not to
sleep. I'm like, well, actually I'm
just, I mean, I think about dying about 30 minutes a day,
maybe an hour a day. And they're like, what are you
talking about? And I'm like, yeah, I just think
like, what are we doing this for?

(01:17:14):
You know, like I've struggle with feeling irrelevant or like
it feeling like a small thing orlike, why do I need to write any
more songs? Why am I even doing this?
And that just opens up the door.Then be like, hey, do I do that
too? You know, this seems so tedious
or this doesn't matter. And when and why are you even
still doing it? And then and then it just opens
up the doors to talk about, you know what, what are your
relationships and why do you think you're in that room?

(01:17:34):
And you ever looked around and thought about why are you where
you are today? You know, why has God got you
right there? And is there anything more than
just trying to get the stickiestmelody you can on a course with
these people that you can contribute?
Can you be a light, You know, just just thinking about all
that stuff? That's kind of where, you know,
it bled into our conversation about that OK project and
creative support network becausethat song is an admission of,

(01:17:58):
you know, obviously I'm not OK. And it doesn't say do this.
And then you will be, you know, it ends with like, we're all
going to be all right. One day.
We'll be in paradise in heaven. You know, it gets there.
But as far as our time on Earth,it's just an admission of not
being all right. And it was so weird.
I thought this will be a bonus cut.
It'll be a song that'll get on like the Walgreens only edition.

(01:18:21):
You know that. When did you come out?
When did you? Literally have the original
idea. I don't know, I've heard people
say that, you know, I thought that would be a cool song if
they might be willing to do it. I just have it in my phone.
You have titles in my phone. And we, Taylor Phillips had
invited me out to write with Jelly Roll and Casey Brown.
And Taylor's a great Co writer and knows Jelly Roll really
well. And you know, one of our other
writers, that crowd produced a bunch of this stuff.

(01:18:41):
So we, we had some success kind of like, you know, diagonally, I
guess. But I hadn't really worked with
him until that album. So I went out for two days to
write and, and that was one of the ideas.
The last day we were on the bus,We're all together on the bus
and I said, hey, I've got one idea.
It's either like for you or nobody, you know, I said it, he
was down to do it, you know, down to work on it, which says a

(01:19:03):
lot about him that he would evenwant to want to do that.
And I'm like, that's kind of allit is.
It's just saying I'm not OK. I had a little keyboard about
this big in my lap and and I played that melody kind of the
way it starts and we just took off running on it and we're just
as honest. I said we just need to be as
honest as we can be and I'll tryto solve a problem.
And he was all in, you know how how transparent he is about his
struggles. And so it we just worked out and

(01:19:24):
and if he wasn't an artist rightnow, then nobody would record
it. I wouldn't even thought I
wouldn't even save the idea probably.
But thankfully we wrote that that day.
And it I mean, the fact that it was his first single and then it
was a top 10 pop song has no business being on pop radio.
There's nothing to roll your windows down about that song at
all. It's just, it's just connecting.
It's just like everybody else saying, hey, it it it's hard to

(01:19:45):
get out of the bed sometimes toofor me, you know, and it's just
I think it just hopefully brought a little awareness.
I think there already was some because of what you do and
because of, you know, so much work that so many people do.
So it's not like that was a new thought.
It was just putting it on the radio was kind of a, a different
vibe, you know, for country music.
So I was, I was thankful that that was a, you know, we got to

(01:20:05):
go to the Grammys for that song.But but most of all, just that
it affected people. I see the signs that you held up
in the audience. And he told me a story about it
last time I saw him, about somebody that told him something
at a show about their life and how that that helped them.
And that's great to hear at the end of the day, that's, that's
what we want, you know, more than #1 is to affect somebody in
some way, you know, about by this, by these weird songs we're

(01:20:26):
making up. And maybe just for them to have
a good time one night or to fallin love or get over a breakup or
tell a funny story or a heartbreaking story or in
sometimes it's stuff like that, you know, to help them through a
time. And so I'm, I'm very, very
fortunate to be a part of that one.
And, and just felt like that's why I called you.
I just felt like that song was kind of handed down.
I had a lot of success and wanted to hopefully use that

(01:20:48):
song for in the proceeds for some kind of good for other
songwriters who who want to havethose conversations in rooms.
But maybe I'm comfortable enoughto have them.
Or even if they are, they want somewhere they can actually get
some, some help with those emotions that are unique to us,
you know, as writers and not as artists.
And I just didn't think there's anything really hitting
songwriters in the heart with the kind of stuff I struggle

(01:21:09):
with, with the things like purpose.
Why am I doing this? What am I trying to prove?
What is my end goal? How can I get clarity before I'm
70? Looking back, you know, I mean,
how can I get it while I'm in it?
What, what is, you know, I don'tknow, how do I deal with
rejection? Just all the things, you know,
that we kind of go through that we've been talking about on this
podcast, you know, so thankfullyyou guys jumped on board and

(01:21:32):
turn that into a a great thing for a lot of people.
Yeah, it's been amazing to watchwhat it did.
And I, I had always been adjacent to and worked with the
creative community, artist, songwriters for years, but we
didn't really have a formal outlet for people who may not
have the means to be able to work with people who had that
kind of experience. And you and I, well, first I, I
dug in on the research and it surprised me how many

(01:21:54):
songwriters and creatives live below the poverty line because
it's, it's a somewhat of a sexy,hip profession.
And you just assume everybody has had a lot of success with
it. And it's a very small percentage
of people that make a living at it, but there's a whole lot of
people that do it. And I, and the reason I think
it's a community worth investingin is I was having a great
conversation on the, we were recording episode yesterday with

(01:22:15):
Dax. It's artist and he's gospel,
Christian, hip hop, country cross.
Everything's everything. Really neat guy, but I asked him
about his genre. I said what what genre music do
you think you do now? And he said I'm I'm a if
impactful, it's a genre. I make impactful music.
Oh, that's great. Love that I tell that story and
I was like, I think a lot of guys can get on board with that.

(01:22:36):
They hope their their stories and their music travel and they
do. We could have literally spent
two hours and it probably would have gotten more eyes and ears
because it would have been interesting just name dropping
everybody that you and I know and what you've done and all the
number ones and every story. And those are cool stories.
I mean, and you, you don't give yourself enough credit.
I've seen you do rounds and I'veseen you on the ACM's living

(01:22:56):
live stage perform and you can play and sing.
You can hold your own. But I, I, that's the, the, the
shiny stuff is what we're all conditioned to chase.
We're just conditioned to chase the shine.
And this whole effort is in the whole effort of the creative
support network is reminding people who they are beyond what
they think they've got to accomplish to feel worthy.

(01:23:19):
And that's really what we created, which is an opportunity
in this creative support networkto offer fully funded
therapeutic multi day intensives, which I've been
offering it on site for years and years.
They're really powerful. But what we wanted to do is do
it a little different is we wanted to take a group of really
well trained clinicians and train them in how to support

(01:23:42):
creatives. So you and I literally got in
the ground level and, and, and spent some time with them.
I spent hours training them on the clinical side of that
equation. And you, you gave them time and
just said, here's the mind of a songwriter.
I remember you came to this song.
I'm going to tell you how screwed up I am.
Yeah, here. We go, yeah, take notes.
But you kind of let them see howthe sausage was made and that
what that saves is. And I have triaged or networked

(01:24:06):
creatives all over the mental health landscape for 20 years.
And it was always a challenge upfront because if you didn't have
people who understood, who slepton a tour bus, who understood
the, the insurance and outs of the profession, then often it
was the person in front of them had to spend the first several
days explaining what they do andwhy the pressure's there.

(01:24:27):
And I was like, what's this saving that time?
Let's, let's let them come in and feel known and understood
and empathize with the same way you try to do in the room.
And so far we're, gosh, we're pushing over 50 intensives in a
short amount of time, which has been absolutely amazing.
And I think we're just getting started.
We're offering them in Nashville.
We just got started with our first opportunity in California
and our idea with what you've generously been a part of seed

(01:24:49):
funding with, with the proceeds from Not OK is all the major
music hubs. We want therapeutic support that
way, no creative that doesn't have means or resources as they
struggle to make an impact in the world.
We can come behind them, put some wind behind their sails.
Oh, that's all that's so needed,man.
Life coaches for artists, writers, I mean, just everybody
needs just therapy in general. Everybody needs it.

(01:25:11):
It's been amazing. It's been I'm very, very
thankful, you know, for this time, our relationship that that
song and and for the conversations we've got to have
and the and the sessions I've had people come up.
There are new writers to me, like out of nowhere, stop me and
say, Hey, I did this going and Iwas doing, you know, it's a
private thing. I was doing it.
But I hit, you know, people thathave had hits and people that

(01:25:32):
maybe haven't have both, you know, come up to me and said
that it was a it was a, you know, awakening or a life
changing kind of thing. Just for them to get that out
there. Because think about it, it's
like, why are you doing this? And I've gotten even in in some
rooms now with our own writers and other writers like, Hey, why
are you? It's it's funny.
People don't think about it because you're just wired as a,
as somebody trying to make it and get a hit.
And you're just like, go, go, go.
You never stop or, or it's rare that you stop and go, like, why

(01:25:54):
am I doing this? What about what's my end game
here? You know, because it is a
business of more, more, more, more, more.
What do you want more? What do you want the next
number? Want to be longer.
We want the one after that to bebigger with charts.
I mean it, it is really wild. I mean, it never stops and, and
fortunately I've, I've been, I've had some perspective of
talking with you and and prayingthrough and I feel like God's
giving me a new perspective of just like, Hey, we got to

(01:26:17):
celebrate these wins. We got to not keep making it
more and more and more and more.It's fine to want more, but for
that to always be the goal is just, you know, there's no end
insight. So I've been able to talk to
people and say, you know, why doyou do this?
You know, and for some people that could be like, I just want
to prove my family. I could do something.
Or some people are like, I'm in it for the money.
I'm like, all right, well, as soon as you how much money do
you need, you know, and they'll be like, if I could get this,

(01:26:38):
I'd never ride again. I like you wouldn't what would
you do? You know, it just opens up all
these conversations, you know, just like, OK, why is it that
much? Or why do you want this?
Or they'll say, I want to win a whatever award and I'm like,
well, you can't control that, right?
We get to have that conversation.
So it just, it's, it's fun and in sessions in general or just
like with friends where we can be vulnerable, it just seems
like you guys have done a great job creating that and making it

(01:27:00):
not weird to be that honest and that open about it.
And I'm I'm down to help that inany way, any way that I can.
It does. So thank you for that.
It does feel like the stigma is starting to come down a little
bit because more people are talking about it, feel
comfortable they can talk about it just to RIP off the the
lyrics in the sweatshirt. It's just OK to not be OK all
the time. We can talk about that.
And and we did something really whimsical and nutty.

(01:27:22):
I'm surprised you got on board with this.
When I was like, hey, I got a crazy idea.
I think we're going to do a number one party at a maximum
security prison and you're like,OK.
Sounds good to me. And we wanted to do something
different because we wanted to disrupt that platform.
It's such a great thing because ever a songwriter deserves to be
celebrated. But it's usually the the people

(01:27:42):
that were involved in the in thesong getting out to the world
come together. And it's it's kind of typical.
You get up, you get the award, you say a few things and it's
it's not necessarily tied to a bigger message than where it can
go. This song was too important.
It's turned into a mental healthanthem.
And so we Jelly and I both have done a lot of Corrections type
work due to his background and be incarcerated and on the way

(01:28:02):
up. And we're only 5 minutes where
we sit right now in the studio from Tennessee's one Tennessee's
maximum security prisons Riverbend.
And I don't know why we decided to start there because it's
being maximum security is 10 times harder to do what we did,
which is we actually did a full show and a number one
celebration in the yard of Riverbend Prison on the coldest

(01:28:23):
day you could possibly. Yeah.
And it turned out to be incredible.
I mean, there were 2000 incarcerated men.
They got to experience somethingthey never get to experience.
But what people don't probably see in that equation is how
challenging was to get that done.
And so I want to and talked about this since we did it, but
I really want to thank the stateand the governor for being so

(01:28:45):
proactive for allowing us to do something like that.
We had to inventory every screw that went into that stage and
all of it and couldn't bring phones in and some people got
trapped in there because they were doing the call time.
And but it was one of the more encouraging things I've ever
been a part of. It was basically what you intend
to do with the rest of your timeis how do I take this influence?
And I've noticed you've been stepping into a little bit more.

(01:29:07):
I got to compliment my buddy on that.
I've seen you on a few red carpets, which I know make you
cringe a little, but I think it's I think I see why you're
doing it. It's not let me come get the
perfect shot in the perfect attire and and talk about my
fashion next week. It's it is God has given me this
influence and this incredible success to do something nobody's
ever done in my profession. How do I then use it for good?

(01:29:29):
To use it for good, you're making yourself a little more
visible and a whole lot more vulnerable.
Yeah, not not my thing, but I'm I'm definitely down.
I like talking in rooms. You're talking right here is
fine. But yeah, it's it's rough and
and I'm I'm still figuring it out.
I mean, I've, I mean, I got 2 hours of sleep two nights ago,
you know what I mean? So I'm not an expert.

(01:29:51):
Let me give that disclaimer big time.
My mind is not not rolling around with melodies.
It's just thinking about like what matters?
And then why am I doing this? And does this even matter?
You know, I mean, I'm still thinking through everything and
praying through everything and Ihave a tough time.
I really, really, really struggle with that.
But thankfully with with with what y'all are putting together,
then there is a room or at leastsome kind of space where I can

(01:30:12):
share a little bit of the story and maybe hopefully open it up
and people can connect to it. Yeah, well, more to come.
I'm and I am, I am curious because I don't where are you
now on the hit list? You even want to say.
Oh, on the On the Counts 8585, yeah.
It's, I thought I knew it was somewhere right around in there,
which is absolutely amazing. But I'm holding, I want to catch

(01:30:33):
that number pretty quickly with the number of songwriters we're
sending through our program. That's I want to because I've
got a double or triple your output that needs to.
Be please, Yeah, I get the yeah,go as far that that'll be a way
better number than than the hits.
Yeah, please. I, I encourage anybody to go do
that. Doesn't matter if you're having
success or not. I've I've been to intensive it
on site, you know, myself, me and my son.
So it's not like it's not like, oh, there's a certain

(01:30:54):
qualification or anything. Or you could, you know, you
might think like I'm doing all right, but just think about it,
man. If you're, if you're a creative,
you're a writer, you know, why are you doing it?
What do you struggle with? What do you, what do you think
about? And even if you think, think
you're all right, I mean, you know, come learn some, some tips
and tricks to help you process things in a different light.
That's all. That's all it is.
It's just kind of looking at it maybe with a different

(01:31:14):
perspective and I learned some ways to help with that.
Go after your core relationship.If you take anything away from
today's go after your core relationships of the way you go
after your vocation. Absolutely.
Yeah. Pour into those.
Even more and and you might think that we've shown a little
bit of our success in doing thatand I hope it all it all didn't
feel like any kind of highlight reels like, Oh yeah, here's the
life hacks we figured out because you got two guys that
are sitting there saying I do this for a living.

(01:31:36):
I'm armed with all these tools. I struggle sometimes with
anxiety, stress, depression. I spend sleepless nights.
I am able to deploy tools in my faith and what I know about
emotional health and other things now to counterbalance
that. The distance used to be really
wide and now it's shorter when Ican catch and get it back on
track. But I'm constantly striving.

(01:31:56):
How do I be a better parent? How do I be a better human?
How do I'm still my parents are in their 70s, how do I be a
better son? And I think if if you can do
that, then you will. It will enrich your life and
your vocation 10X. Absolutely, yeah.
And that's takes a little bit ofpressure off of it.
You know, it's not the only thing.
All right, anything you want to close us out with that?
If you could encourage, if you could do a magic 1 moment and

(01:32:18):
encourage creatives out there, or if you wanted to encourage
people in their families, could be personal or professional or
both, is what? What's a message you'd want to
leave everybody with? Yeah.
I mean for, I mean you mentionedin family there's just no award
or highlight or amount of money or catalog anything, anything
that's worth the cost of your family, you know what I mean?

(01:32:38):
Or your kids, you don't get thattime back.
So, I mean, we all know that, but you want to protect that,
you know, at all costs. So if you miss something, you'll
catch, you'll catch the next one, you know, And I, I would
just, I would just encourage people to, to build in a little
bit of time in those rooms. And I didn't do it for years.
I would be in and out of there quick, just trying to get the
hit and, and, and get to the game.
So I could coach, but but build in some time and, and be OK with

(01:33:01):
setting the song aside for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 2 hours, a
whole day, whatever it is to to be vulnerable and to pour out
something, something that could help you a lot more than
whatever song that you might have come up with that day.
So I would be open, if you're a writer out there, be open to
what the room has to offer and the people look around and just
at least at least think through it one time.

(01:33:21):
You know, why am I here besides just the task I think I'm here
for, you know, what else could Ipossibly be here for?
You know, is there any kind of encouragement?
I think encouragement is the biggest gift ever.
You know, I miss this sometimes,but me when, when there's
somebody I know has their first hit or just has a hit and if I
can think to do it and I'm not as good about as I wish I was,
but just sending them an encouraging text or just knowing

(01:33:44):
that that we're all in the same boat, you know, we're all
struggling with it. Just encouraging each other as
much as humanly possible. I think is great, you know,
checking on people, checking on your friends.
And again, as a writer, knowing that God gives you these
relationships for a reason. It's not always just to just to
try to create something that goes up the chart.
You know, it could be a total different reason that that
you're with those people for that set time on that day.

(01:34:06):
So building some time to talk and and to hang a check on each
other. Check in on your people.
I, I think about, you know, so far some of the people we've
been talking to on the podcast are people who have accomplished
great things vocationally and, and, and I really think success
is a definition as a moving target.
I don't think has anything to dowith how much you accumulate or

(01:34:27):
how you know how much commercialsuccess you've had, vocational
success, financial success. It because I look, sometimes I'm
envious. I, I grew up in a small town.
I've been in Nashville most of my life.
I've just recently moved out to a little small town just outside
Nashville. I wanted small town again
because I'm back with people whoare aren't hyper fixated on

(01:34:47):
their career. They're hyper fixated on their
family and I'm watching them be stress free on the sideline of a
basketball game for an 8 year old and they don't have anywhere
to be but there. And I, I want you to hear you
guys are as much a hero in this story as anybody that's
accomplished anything. If anything, I admire that as
much as I think it's as much of A sacrifice.
And I admire it because what we know about the recipe is at the

(01:35:09):
end of life we will be no different.
Makes no difference how many hits you got or what all I've
done, how many centers I've done.
What none of that matters are your relationships that are you
most intimately involved with. Are they intact?
Do the people around you respectyou?
Do they know that you've made aneffort?
It's going to be imperfect, but give it an effort.
Check on your people. That's the word.

(01:35:31):
Thank you buddy. Thanks for having me.
Good stuff.

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