Judah Smith: How to Stay Human When Everyone’s Watching

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We've been taught everything except how to be human.
Welcome to human school, where remarkable people turn raw,
unfiltered experience into practical wisdom.
I'm Miles Adcox, and this podcast was born from the belief
that you don't graduate from being human, you just get more
honest about the lessons. If you're ready to stop

(00:21):
performing your life and start participating in it, you're in
the right place. This is human school where we
finally learn what matters most.When I think about what it means
to lead with both strength and gentleness, today's guest comes
to mind. Judah Smith grew up steeped in
ministry, a 7th generation pastor who watched his father

(00:42):
preach and felt to call himself as a young boy.
But what strikes me most isn't the legacy he inherited, it's
the way he's chosen to live it out.
Judah and his wife, Chelsea Lee Church Home, a community built
on the belief that faith should feel like home.
Under his guidance, Church Home has moved from buildings into
living rooms and phones to remind us that love and

(01:03):
belonging aren't confined to walls.
Judah has become known for his honesty, for questions like,
how's your soul? He's spoken openly about the
importance of mental health, about slowing down in a world
that runs too fast. His humor, humility, and
insistence on grace have made him a trusted voice for people
inside and outside the church and people like me.

(01:26):
I'm grateful for the chance to sit with my buddy today.
Please welcome pastor, storyteller, and someone who
keeps reminding us grace meets us right where we are.
Judah Smith. Come on, what?
You can prepare me for that. That's the greatest thing that's
ever been written about me. That's insane.
No, it's right up there. That meant the world.

(01:47):
Only you, Miles, would give the most meaningful introduction.
It's like I just did therapy with you again.
Here we are. Yeah.
So if you're out there and and you you need to be on this show
just so Miles will write about you at the beginning.
That was unbelievable. Thank you for that.
That actually meant a lot, and it actually energized me.

(02:09):
Thanks for having me. I love you.
When do I get to read my intro of you?
Ladies and gentlemen, I still don't know how to pronounce your
last name. Can you tell Ed Cox?
I I'm not going to do it. You know I'm not going.
To do anything I'm not. Going to do it right so.
You won't believe how many jokesI got about that on the way up.
Yeah, and I just did a lot of editing there.
Yeah, yeah. The people out there, I threw a

(02:29):
softball up. You just not gonna take the
swing. Let's go with Milo.
Didn't. Didn't.
I coined that Milo. He he recoined it.
My high school football coach called me Milo and it was very
endearing because this was a coat.
He was wanting this. This coach was one of my kind of
Angel people in life that saw meat an early age and was a great
mentor. Loved that coach.

(02:50):
He called me Milo. Not many people ever didn't.
It never stuck. Didn't pick up after that till
Tyler comes along and he reintroduced.
Like a from a guy that meant a lot.
To you and it took two years. Yeah, he's one of my best
friends. It took two years before I told
him the back story because I would just say I felt so
endearing every time he would say it and he never asked me, is
this typical Tyler fashion? He never said do you like it?
He just he assigned it to me. But then it was it was connected

(03:12):
already to a man that had meant a lot to you.
And then here comes one of your dearest friends.
Like, that's cool. Can I guess your position in
football, please? I don't think you've told me.
Yeah, please. I think you dabbled at
quarterback, but I think you ended up playing some wide
receiver. Interesting.

(03:32):
Yeah, and then I think you weighed a minute.
I think you also played cornerback as well on defense.
You clearly come from much larger schools with a lot more
people. I graduated with 94 people as I
was actually a big guy in in theschool I grew up in.
And actually I had more weight on me.
Well, not in high school, I had about the same weight.
High school to college. I gained a little bit more

(03:53):
weight, but I played. Believe it or not, I did play
receiver, but not a wide receiver.
Tied in. Tied in.
I knew. I Hey, guys, listen, I do.
We got to reshoot this. I'm kidding.
I, I part of me said tight end man, I should have gone with it.
I should have gone. We.
We. Ran a wing T offense, which is a
really old but a really great offense.

(04:15):
So we so tight end was where I stayed 90% of the time, but I
did go too. My coach saw a little potential
in me my sophomore year. He sent me to the Bobby Bowden
quarterback and receiver Academyyou remember about.
Florida State. Baby back in their prime.
And so his one, one of his sons,it was Terry, I think.
Was it Terry? Terry Aub?

(04:35):
Became a coach at Auburn, I think.
Yeah, but he also coached at Samford, a College in Alabama.
Smaller school. Deep, deep, deep.
Know that because that's where the camp was hosted.
It bounced around, but his dad would kind of pop in.
But it was his sons that were really his two sons, right?
I think both of them coached. Yeah, both of them.
Yeah. Yeah, I.
Came but anyway, I came back from there, from there in my
hands and my routes and everything was sharper.

(04:57):
And so they were like, OK, we'regoing to bump you out to Wyatt
out and try some different, you know, a little bit different
strategy on offense left. One thing got missed in that
analysis of what we should run. Speed, speed.
I knew it. I should have said it.
And I was like, that's why I'm tied in.
I never well you. Know what they say, you can't
teach speed so. Fair.
Enough, that's what they. Say, but also I was in on

(05:19):
defense, I was outside linebacker.
Wow, I know. Yeah, we, but again, in a small
school and so we didn't have a lot of big, you know.
That road, what did you weigh back then?
I'm going to guess. I'm going to guess about what I
weigh now about 17180, but yeah,the cornerbacks are probably
13140 in the school. OK, Right.
Yeah, that's true. The defensive.

(05:39):
Line I I love both, both sides of the ball, but defence is what
I really love. Really.
Oh, I love that outside linebacker rule.
It was so fun. That's I I I got to.
Be honest, I wish I had been fast enough to play corner.
That would have been fun too. Yeah.
What did you play? You look like I played, I played
QB, but I was better at tennis. So I finally quit the football
team and decided to play tennis,which is ironic because during

(06:00):
football practice we made fun ofthe tennis guys.
But I was pretty good at tennis.So I I quit the QB role and then
focused on tennis and basketballstatistically.
Here's my start getting into it.I don't think anyone cares.
How about that we? Play.
I forget you're a basketball guyand I remember your tennis
because I played you in ping pong and I've seen your old

(06:22):
tennis. Maneuvers come out.
Ping pong. But basketball is was the sport
I played the least because we baseball and football is what I
love. Played basketball in high
school, but now basketball I play more than anything because
our mutual. Friend Jelly and I always out
there, we hoop. We hoop everywhere we go, just
about every city. Played in Montreal yesterday.
Did you really play? You played hoop with the

(06:43):
Canadians? Let me ask you, at our age, I'd
like to say our age. I mean, you're in phenomenal
shape, do you? So you're just, you're not
getting hurt at all. Like you're not like worried
about it, which is probably a bad thing to even bring up.
I don't know why I'm doing this,but it's a real thing for me.
Like I think of like hoop and I'm like, I just don't think I

(07:03):
have it in the faculty. Anymore, let me tell you what I
learned by hooping. So I got back into it with guys
and I it's, it's a pretty diverse group of guys with ages.
It's spanned from 20 to 50 and everything in between.
And I'm on the backside of that.I'm in that upper upper tier,
so. Yes, we are.

(07:24):
I, I worried about it a little. I was like, I don't, I don't
have time and don't want to get hurt.
I've got little ones running around at home.
I got to do this. But as soon as I got on the
court for the first time, by theway, I had no lungs, no wind.
I'd not gotten in shape for it at all and I only knew 1 speed,
which is you, you have to go allout.
And I went all out. Just about killed myself for the
first two months I played. Couldn't get out of bed.

(07:45):
I was so sore and so beat up. I mean, I was down low banging
on these big guys for rebounds, playing like Rodman because I've
never had a great shot. But I could.
I was always good at defense andI was like, I'm going to just go
and and then I govern back a little bit and I was like, you
can well, I've learned you can still enjoy the game and not
feel like you're playing for theNBA championship every time you

(08:06):
step on the court. So now I play at a little
different level and I'm preserving my health.
Outside of 1 torn rotator cuff that came off of a concrete wall
Jacksonville last year, I'm in good shape.
No other injuries. I highly.
Recommend This is why I love youbecause of course that's how you
started to play because you knowno other way.
And I, I, I would like to think that we're similar that way.

(08:26):
Like if you're going to do something, let's be the best.
Like, let's give everything we got.
And I do, I do love that about you.
But that's why I don't play hoopanymore because I try to, I
can't govern myself. That's the bottom line or my
attitude. That's why to quit tennis.
I broke too many rackets. Well, let's start with doing
your best 'cause you, you, you, you.

(08:47):
It's a good bridge you threw up there for us 'cause I know
you're quite good at what you do.
You want favors to or tours one of my favorite communicators and
you use that in a lot of different ways.
I, you know, I leaned a little bit heavy on on what you're
known for in in that intro, but you are not just A1 dimensional
pastor. You kind of have moved your
skill set and your ability out into culture in some cool ways.
And like you said, if you're going to do it, why not be one

(09:09):
of the best at it? Where's that come from?
I mean, to be honest, it's so mydad, I think I've told you this
before and this is such a talk about an unfair story because it
just is and life is not fair. But my dad, from my earliest
memory said people like you and they want to hear what you have

(09:32):
to say. And excuse me, gives me choked
up. But no, seriously, it it.
I mean, we're talking like I don't exaggerate. 789 years old.
Hey, son, what do I always tell you?
People like you and they want tohear what you have to say.

(09:53):
I think he saw in me that perhaps I I was going to have a
gift to communicate. And I think he knew that the
greatest head start he could give me was this like
overwhelming sense that when I walk into a room, people are
like, I like you. I wonder what you have to say.
So as a communicator, it just it, it drew me into not the cost

(10:16):
of being the best, but the opportunity and excitement
around I'm going to be the best at this because people like me
and they want to hear what I have to say.
Obviously, you grow up and you realize like a lot of people
don't like you and the last thing they want to hear is what
you have to say. But that really set my world in
motion and and I just have really, really enjoyed it.

(10:37):
And then my dad and mom were very excellent people.
My mom very disciplined woman. And so it was like, man,
whatever we do, we're going to do it with all of our heart.
And of course, that's in the ancient text.
And whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all of your
might. And so there was this feeling in
our family that passion and excellence are, you know, kind
of a tandem that you just buy into.

(10:59):
And so you have kind of, I've kind of enjoyed the, the
process. And, and I have to say, like, I,
I think one of the many reasons I love you and Vanessa and your
family and what you do it on site is there is this underline
of excellence that is underline actually is not true.
There's this overt, you know, commitment to excellence and

(11:19):
doing what you do at, at at the highest level.
And I think if I could be so bold in our line of work from
preaching to like therapy, whichyou can't just minimize what you
do to therapy, but like excellence was like not noble
almost kind of in our worlds. And the fact that you bring
excellence to helping people in the most painful points of their

(11:41):
life to me only makes sense. But it's also really compelling.
Thank you. Yeah, that seed.
Now, I'm real curious about this.
I love origin stories. But that seed that your dad
planted back then by the. I love that people like you.
And then we hear what you have to say if you name if, if that
seed could be named in a motion of some kind, what would it be

(12:02):
of? Is it drive?
Is it he planted a seed of motivation?
He planted a seed of Believe what?
Confidence. Confidence.
Yeah, confidence by way of affirmation early was this was
was something that really was a signal to you or a flare.
It's like, OK, I got something to give here.
Yeah, the truth. My story is it was until 16 that
I ever struggled with confidencea day in my life.

(12:24):
And it was a watershed moment. And my dad was so sweet.
He kind of chuckled like, oh, buddy, welcome to life.
You know, every day is not goingto be.
I just miles. I can't remember feeling any
social fear until one specific day when I was 16 years old.
I mean, you know what I'm going to ask next.
I hate to be that obvious but I'm so curious about what

(12:45):
happened on that day if you're open.
To share, it was a guest preacher.
Interestingly enough, he was living a duplistic life.
That's an interesting thought. But there was something about
him I couldn't. I couldn't come into my dad's
office and say hi. It was suddenly I was
overwhelmed with intimidation and I couldn't smile.

(13:08):
I couldn't look in the eye. I just couldn't.
And it's funny at 16, you know, it's adorable.
But like, my whole world caved in.
And I concluded on that day, I went into the back alley of my
dad's office building, and it was pouring down rain because
it's Seattle. And I, I said, I can't be a
pastor's kid anymore. And I'm done with this, you
know? And my dad found me in the

(13:29):
alley. And he's like, son, are you OK?
And I told him, you know, Dad, Ican't do this anymore.
And he's like, I understand. No, Dad, like, I'm done.
I understand. No, I just can't.
I can't keep it up anymore. Dad.
I'm exhausted. I understand.
That's OK. And obviously I think my dad
would have made a great therapist.

(13:49):
Clearly he had. Yeah, he had much more.
Year at that moment. Perfect.
Mind, but he we just sat there and he's like no problem, you
don't have to then, son, I love you no matter what.
And of course, a couple days later I was ready to go again.
You know, it's all but he just gave me that space and I think
he was such an instiller of like, OK, no problem, you're not

(14:11):
believing you. I love you.
And, and I think, you know, early we were talking in your
office, the head start that my dad gave me emotionally and
socially in life, You know, I just, it's so unfair, but it's
so real. And I just love him for it.
And to this day, I think I have a sense of like, I'm really
excited at what I might say and it might be really interesting.

(14:33):
I think I'm going to enjoy it. And it's weird, as cocky as that
even sounds. It just I came at it very
honestly with with my dad and I think my dad dreamed that he
would have had a dad like that. And I think that drove him.
He's like, I'm going to be the dad that his preacher dad never
was. He was just the opposite.
And it both my sister and I don't think we lack for

(14:55):
confidence. So at least we have that going
for us. But he did it.
He did a good job. I think it's it's such an
interest if you dissect that a little bit, because a lot of
people out here have a moment where they got affirmed for
something that seeded A belief that they could go be something
or do something. And then often that gets

(15:17):
fractured somewhere along the way.
And instead of it turning into this innocent opportunity to go
be great at something, it feels like pressure, undue pressure,
like I have to be that, I have to be that.
And I'm always curious is like, why?
OK, so two people come from similar environments.
You got a seed planet of affirmation at a young age,
which bred confidence. But I think the key moment,

(15:40):
which I'm glad you told him is Idon't think confidence stays
consistent without reassurance. And I, I saw your dad coming at
that pivotal moment, the first time you had a breach in your
confidence. He came in with reassurance.
And I'm curious how, cause a lotof people can emulate the, the
first thing they see and experience, but there's layers

(16:01):
underneath it that I wonder if if you can also emulate the
depth that potentially was the catalyst that allowed this to be
sustainable. Because I do believe it's
sustainable. You are, you are, you are
likable and you are confident. What do you have to say?
And I love that about you wildlysocial and, and you're really,
like I said, a great communicator, but you also do
for others, IE me. I went what you miss when we

(16:25):
walked in here, because I think you were on a call with Chelsea.
Maybe is I said to a couple of my teammates here, I said, you
know, I said I hadn't got to catch up with him in quite some
time. We just had the most beautiful
hour and a half two hour catch up and I learned a lesson there
said maybe don't do that until after the podcast.
That's. True.
We're all talked out, guys. It's been great, you know.

(16:48):
Well, I know we got a lot more said.
I try not to ask you many questions, but we just had a
really rich, great conversation catch up.
Some of it didn't need to be on here, which is fine, but but
some of it did. But you did for me and there
what your dad did for you at 7:00 and 8:00.
And then you also did for me what your dad did for you at 16.

(17:08):
And you do it. So naturally it's like you just
you, you spot something, you seeit, you can't help yourself but
to speak into it. And then you double back on it
after the story and you reassurepeople just to make sure they
don't forget it. And I know that's part of your
gift as a communicator and it's a pastor to administer as a
friend as AI mean you do a lot of stuff.
We'll get into some of the otherstuff lately, but, and it's neat

(17:29):
to hear, OK, maybe it came on us, but have you developed your
own style? Do you ever think about the guy
behind the tool? You know, I've got all these
tools. Is it natural to you as a
communicator and as an encourage, or is it something
you have to work at? Wow, that's such a great
question. Thank you for all that.
Yeah, I think, by the way, I just got to make an observation

(17:52):
because I think you just put it together for me and I don't
think I realized, which is what happens with Miles, by the way.
But you're like, oh, wait, OK, So like if my dad at 16 that day
says to me, get it together, what's wrong with you?
I didn't raise you like this. I wonder if even my, my

(18:14):
mentality could have been altered for the rest of my life.
But you're right. It's funny.
I and I've told that story before, but of course it wasn't
to someone. It wasn't you.
And so you weren't like, whoa, he just that that's it.
Like he did it like he gave me space and room.
And so it didn't turn into pressure.
You're right. I've never put that together
because because sometimes I've struggled with people who are

(18:35):
like, dude, I feel so much pressure.
Like doing podcasts. I did one earlier today and
people ask me like, do you get nervous?
And like, of course there's a bunch of nerves, especially when
I'm golfing with really good golfers.
But like when I get into a spacelike this, like, I mean, I just
get so excited about what we're going to talk about and what
we're going to say. But you're right, it goes back
to like my dad instilling it, but I never realized.

(18:57):
And I think right now in real time, I'm being convicted a
little bit about my parenting and me, the dad realizing like
you, you and you're so good at this.
And we've done therapy together and watching like my personality
is like, what's wrong? No, fix it.
Like I just got off the phone with Chelsea and something hurt
her feelings and I was like, nota problem.

(19:18):
We're going to get you on the trip and we're going to make
sure you know, and that's not what she needs.
What she wants from me is like, I'm so sorry.
Tell me how you're feeling. And I try to be more like you
that way, Miles. I promise I do.
And I learned that from our timetogether.
But I do need to be reminded. And so I guess I'm just saying
things out loud. I'm grateful that my dad did
that. As it comes to my gift and

(19:41):
intentionality, I am the way that the way that I'm wired is
like I have to get around a lot of people.
Like I read books, I study and Iprepare.
I have to have a 2 hour conversation with with with
miles like that. That is how I develop.
That's how I grow is I ask questions and like, I just grow

(20:05):
that way and I can't. So I was at another place
earlier today and I like find people my cake.
Let's talk like, tell me your story, whatever.
And that's how I'm developing and growing.
I'm also like constantly and I think you're this the way, but
like people study the art of communication.
To me, it's all about obsessing over the object of

(20:26):
communication, which is the human being.
And if you understand humans, and if you get in touch with
what humans are feeling in 2025 and their highs and their lows
and their pains and their thrills, like then if you're
already good at putting some words together.
But if you can meet people wherethey go, how did he know?

(20:47):
That's what I feel right now, which obviously you're so
incredibly highly skilled at andyou're able to train others.
And on site helps people. And I'm going to be unashamed in
my commercial about on site during this podcast because it's
means so much to me and so much to people who mean a lot to me
because you meet people and where they really are, not where
you think people are. And so I will say that I, I

(21:10):
really enjoy the process of getting to know.
I got in the combo today about Jen's ears and I'm like, OK,
tell me what you know, like, howdo, what do they feel and what
are they sensing? And that's exciting to me.
And, and I feel like tonight I'mdoing a Bible study and I'm
like, OK, how can I simulate my new information?
You know, like, how can I get it?
Because that's also how, how I learned and, and perhaps maybe

(21:31):
it's also just staying curious. I find myself to be incredibly
be curious and I think it it kind of helps hopefully in
communicating. Well, I think it does.
That was a lot. No, it wasn't.
It was just right the when you were.
I think it's important to remember what your dad did in
that moment. I'll do a call back too.
So I think that was awesome thatyou can reconnected that dot and

(21:53):
that and then you moved it forward to the conversation you
had with your wife outside the door.
And you said in real time, I should have said, I should have
said. And often we're even trying to
think of the right thing to say when we're empathizing and
marry. That's like, how's the right way
to do that? And I love what your dad did
back there. He was like, OK, OK, I hear.

(22:15):
And, and the whole time I was thinking, I'm with him.
I mean, you're telling it so I'mwith her.
And it's almost like we got to take a picture of that playbook.
Next time Vanessa has a problem,I'm I'm pulling your dad.
Yeah, I'm sorry. OK, I hear you.
It's OK. We got you.
It's so good. Vanessa, Chelsea, if you can
hear us, Yeah, we're we're getting.
Both you, you one. One of the things that's

(22:37):
undeniable and I used to think it was your style.
I think communicators are stylistic and yours give a lot
of charisma and a lot of energy,a lot of enthusiasm.
It's almost like watching a little bit of like, it's like a
play in one person with a lot ofcharacters on the stage.
And clearly he doesn't know which one he is.

(22:58):
No, no, it's really fun because you just you, you draw from high
intellect. I can tell you've done your
homework and your research, whatever topic you're talking
about, but you put a lot of humor and heart and impact and
you're just coming all over the place and you can tell you, you
can tell the words are coming through you.
It's not something you've overlyprepped or prepared for.
I'm sure you do a little prep and prep prep, but it's, it's an

(23:18):
organic manifestation. And I used to think it was the
enthusiasm, but I actually thinkit's the authenticity.
Because when I got to know you as a friend behind the scenes, I
was like, oh, wait a minute, he's the same guy.
He's not performance. He's actually the same guy.
Now I have caught you in quietermoments and and and stuff but.
Painful moments. We've all been there, but I am

(23:41):
curious how you carry that through.
So I think that's one of the hardest things to do is I, I
communicate a lot to one-on-one mostly, but I speak and, and do
different things. And for me, the tell is I, if I
get quick in my voice or if my accent starts to change a little
bit that I'm getting in the performative side.

(24:02):
And the performance performativeside to me is, am I saying the
right thing to the right people at the right time?
And I'm thinking about that in real time, which is always the
recipe for a average talk versusI don't like even in real time
communication. If I'm thinking about the next
question I'm going to ask you, then I'm not with you on this

(24:24):
current question. But there is a cliffhanger
moment when I go right to the edge of like you're saying, some
really brilliant stuff. I got no idea where I'm going
next. Yeah, totally.
But there's something about thatthat's authentically that's my
style. It shouldn't be everybody's
style. It's just my playbook.
I think it's your playbook as a speaker a little bit.
But how has that served you? And do you, does it ever make
you feel uncomfortable at all? Do you ever is it is it

(24:45):
vulnerable to to walk into environments and not have it,
but then just realize it's goingto come?
Yeah, I definitely have struggled for a long time
believing that I I wasn't smart.And I don't say that.
So people feel bad for me. I love my life and you know,
whatever's going on up here, I've really enjoyed it.
But I genuinely didn't believe that my intellect was and

(25:06):
primarily because in my tradition, it was all about so
much of the study and the data and the stats.
And by the way, I could never find where Scripture is in the
Bible. I just can't, it will never
happen. Like I, it could be my, I mean,
I think I know John 316, you know, because of Tim Tebow.
But like literally, I don't like, I just can't get the
address right. And so I've been embarrassed

(25:28):
about that. I feel like I mix up the names
and characters. Is it, is it Elijah or Elijah
and all these different things in Scripture?
And so I'm just like, oh, man, Ikind of feel embarrassed.
And then the way that I prep or the way that I move or the way
that I think also felt like, man.
And it has honestly been incredible friends like you who
have been able over the process of like adulthood to be like,

(25:50):
bro, this is like, it's kind of the way God wired you.
And it's kind of what makes you good at what you do.
And I think it's the last 15 years of my life where I've just
been like, dude, this is awesome.
Like this is me. And the other day I have a
friend who's like in a midlife crisis.
He's our age. And he's like, you know, hoping
to be discovered, whatever that means.
And I told a 32 year old friend of mine, I was like, hey, at my

(26:12):
age, you are who you are. I doesn't mean you can't change
and grow, but like who you are is probably who you are.
You know what I mean? Like, and I'm not waiting to be
discovered again. There's so many I want to keep
changing and, and because of onside, I think I can, you know,
and all of these things. But like, I am who I am.
And so starting to embrace who Iam.

(26:35):
And the only way I'll answer this is my life scripture that's
changed my life. There's this guy named Paul.
He has this crazy encounter withGod.
He's a, he's an absolute thug. His name is Saul.
He has this encounter with real Jesus, which is the only kind of
encounters that that that matterin terms of your spiritual

(26:56):
journey. Like let's, if there is a God,
meet me like please. And he does.
And then he starts to mentor this young guy named Timothy.
Timothy ends up having what we think could be as churches,
maybe is 30,000 people in antiquity is that's like
330,000,000. And so Timothy's profile is
growing and he's like dealing with all these emotions.
And Paul writes to him in his second letter and he's like,
hey, be strong in the grace. In other words, embrace who you

(27:20):
are, not who you want to be. You hope to be.
You wish to be just who I made you to be.
And so when I feel like I'm not being myself, there's, there's
clear indicators I'm overthinking, which is really
bad for someone with my kind of wiring.
If you overthink, you're doomed.Like you got to let this thing

(27:41):
fly, baby, because that's like literally your only.
And so if you're out there and you feel like me, like, bro, let
that thing RIP, let that thing fly.
I am at my best, no notes. My preparation has to be through
the course of my journey and by the time I'm up there, if my
wiring is going to work. The second thing I'd say is, is

(28:03):
I got to get my mind off myself.And I have to literally, this is
going to sound maybe not so strange, but like, I mean, I
have to have a real love affair with my audience.
Like it has to be, I have to be caught up in the emotion of it.
Like I got to, I got to sense them and feel them.
And so I love a live audience for that because what I've done
since I was a young boy startingout in revival meetings when I

(28:24):
was 16, is I'll find someone in the audience that I don't know.
And I'll imagine their life and that brought them to that night.
And I'll imagine what they've must have faced and what they've
gone through, which is a bizarrething.
And sometimes I've got caught staring at someone and they're
staring back at me. And then it dawns on me that
we're like locking eyes. And I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry, Oh
my God, that was weird. You know, it's, I'm just, but
I'll get totally caught up in, in what I think could be their

(28:47):
story. And so I'll go to the stage with
this whole like journey. And I also think in my line of
work, like imagine what someone's gone through to come
through the doors of like a spiritual community.
Like it's like going to an, A, ameeting, like it's taking a lot
to get there, you know, And so like, first of all, let's start
there. Like, bro, this person is so
desperate, so in need of something that they've come to

(29:11):
hear a preacher on a Friday night in South Beach, Miami.
Like, bro, you better bring something that's worthwhile and
not just your latest hot sermon.Like, you know, pour yourself
out. And so one of my heroes, Bishop
TD Jakes said, you know you, youstudy yourself full, pray
yourself hot, and then you let. Yourself go sorry, say that.

(29:33):
Again so fast. I get so excited.
Study yourself full, pray yourself hot and then let
yourself go, baby. And whatever's in you is in you.
And if it ain't in you, it's toolate now because you're on the
stage and people are dying in the streets and what you have
could save lives. So in our in our my smallest

(29:53):
group of friends, every night before we have church in LA or
church in Seattle, we text, you know, it's life and death, baby.
Like this is like we don't this in the game for us.
This is like people are in the streets dying for meaning,
significance, hope, belonging, connection, forgiveness, value,
like a week. We have got to be about this.

(30:16):
So I don't really know the question that I'm answering
anymore, but I got pretty excited and I'm I'm grateful we.
Started talking about and the reason I ask is because a lot of
times we get I get a chance to sit with high performing people
that have done some really cool things out in the world and I
think the world often gets a bird's eye view of how they do

(30:38):
their craft, which is kind of where we started.
But I'm interested in the human behind the craft and how the
craft benefits the human as muchas I am about how the human
benefits the craft. And because I do think people
who have found a level of success, however we define that
doesn't always equate over to the personal side.

(30:59):
And sometimes it says, sometimesit does and sometimes it gets in
the way of it. And you and I have to have these
conversations a lot because it'sgotten in the way of both of our
journeys before. But I think we both have a
genuine, we had this appetite for for, for being congruent
for, for, for it being in US. In your case, it's the is, is I

(31:20):
really want this message to be within me.
And if it's within me, then it'smore likely going to get to be
within you. And the only way it's within me
is I'm actually living what it is I'm saying, which is a whole
heck of a lot harder than just saying it.
And I am, I'm curious about that.
So you're, you're this great communicator and we learned a
little bit about your recipe. I learned about the origins,

(31:40):
where it, where it came from. How does it serve you in
day-to-day life with your, your people, your friend, community,
your family? Or does it?
I think it it helps and it haunts for sure.
My own words are haunting. I don't know if this happens for
you and some of the content you produce, but sometimes somebody

(32:02):
reminds me of content that I have quite lost and it's like,
yeah, I don't even practice thatanymore, bro.
Wow, that's humiliating. I'm not saying I say that all
the time, but like, I had this 18 and 19 year old, these two
young men flying from North Carolina last week and I told
him to come to my house and hangout in LA.

(32:24):
I'd show them the time of their life.
They didn't believe me. I texted them like, oh wait,
you're serious. OK, we're coming.
So they come out, I call them the Carolina Boys.
I put them up at the hotel on Sunset Blvd.
Their minds are blown. And we're just doing it, man.
We're doing life. We're hanging, we're Facetiming
people, we're doing that. And they started quoting sermons
of mine from 2013, 2015, 2018 and they started saying stuff

(32:47):
Miles Dang if it didn't convict me.
I was like, whoa, boy, I and then I would go back to that 31
year old preacher and what he was facing and going through.
And I thought in that interesting you old guy, 46
years old, thinking you don't need that anymore.
You're past that or and I was just really, really convicted.

(33:07):
So it's, you know, I, I think ina way, I'd love to bring you in
on my pain, but I think it is haunting what we do because
sometimes ironically, you exist to serve and help people be
their best and in the process kind of forget, not so much
forget, but just kind of assume on yourself, I'm good, I'm good,
I'm good, I'm good. And then like some 18 year old

(33:29):
gives you your own stuff back toyou and you're like, oh man, I,
I really needed that, You know, the disparity, the duplicity,
which ironically, the thing I hate the most in my line of
work, I'm most prone to. And that duplicity that, that,
that chasm between public and private, which begins to grow.

(33:51):
And I've learned if you ignore it, it grows, not just if you
like invest in the divide. Meaning like you intentionally
become duplistic, you intentionally become a
hypocrite, think we all already are.
But like if you just ignore thatthing and you don't tend to the
gap and you don't intentionally,you know, you can become two

(34:12):
different people without even thinking overnight.
So like the number of preachers I've met with who said, you
know, told me that they, you know, they were either, you
know, doing stuff that like, basically they had to quit their
job, right? Like you can't be a preacher and
do this, whatever that is. They all said the same thing
unanimously. And I, I don't know at what

(34:33):
point I took note. And this was the statement they
all said verbatim, word for word.
I never thought it would be me. And I've often thought to
myself, and that's why it was. And that's why it was somehow
you thought that the public you was the total real you like

(34:56):
you're impervious. You're a superhero, no dog,
you're just a nightmare like me.And we're all like, no, we're
just broken, average, ordinary people that get to serve
humanity. And what an honor and a thrill
that that is. So I have tried to keep that one
close. The moment you think for I would
never whatever comes after neveryou most likely going to do you

(35:18):
know, that's kind of where I'm at these days.
It's. An open stance of humility, but
I think you do that pretty well,meaning you represent both sides
of that. Here's here's the version of
optimizing my life and my faith that at times I hit the metric
on and I would love to invite you into and I'm a mess with a
message over here. I've got my days.

(35:40):
I'm human. I think you try to bring the
human experience. I'm trying to, I'm newer, I'm
trying to get public with some of the content I've been
creating. Thank God, thanks.
But I, but I'm catching little things like, and I and I too
don't do as well scripted, but yet I, I'm trying to find my way
there because I had a head knocka few years ago that I'd say

(36:03):
several head knocks from my football days and LED to this
head knock. And I don't recall like I used
to, even my own content. So I've been playing a little
bit with writing it and seeing if I can recall it and, and
memorize it. But often if the first round,
I'll write it, I'll say something, I'll identify a
challenge or a problem and then try to humanize it, then try to

(36:24):
talk about the solution and theninvite people into it well.
Brilliant. Often it's here's the, here's
the problem. And then I'll say I said a line
like this last week when I was on doing a piece of content and
I said in the, and here's where most people get it wrong.
Think about that comment. And so the first draft, I put
that out there and not a lot of people would have caught it.

(36:46):
And I didn't change it for people, I change it for me
because I thought that's out of humility right there, what I
need to say. And I went back and said it.
I said here's the thing I get wrong sometimes.
Come on. And I, I really believe you do
that well too. And I think it's one of the
things that's made you relevant in pop culture.

(37:08):
What's unfortunate is there's a lot of pop culture we know moves
the needle as far as influence. What's unfortunate is I think
here's somebody who represents abody of knowledge, IE, you know,
faith and spirituality that is really there to help you live a
better life. And I represent a body,
knowledge that studies human behavior.
And it's really there to help you optimize and live a better

(37:30):
life. It's all some of your
challenges. We are guys like us are rarely
sitting around the table of influence.
So it's hard to say we're very relevant in pop culture.
And if we're not relevant in popculture, then who is influencing
us? And you have made an A point and
I don't know if you did it intentionally or if it's
happened organically. I'm curious and to where you've

(37:53):
become relevant in pop culture to where you don't just run with
the people that you minister to at your church, you're just as
likely to be at the Grammys or somewhere else with people that
you're influencing ministering. And was it a choice?
Was it intentional? Lana still should have won that
Grammy, but that's beside the point.
I just want to go on record to say that, yeah, I'm still hurt,

(38:13):
you know? But you know, a couple a couple
answers like I got a vision. My my my dad would meet with a
couple athletes back in the day.His dream was always be the
chaplain of the Seahawks. I did finally realize that
although he was gone from the earth and didn't get to see it.
But so I'll say that my, my dad felt like the greatest story

(38:36):
ever told should impact the greatest storytellers in the
world, which often times are the, the musicians and the, the,
the movie and the actors and theactresses and the, and the
athletes. And so I'll have to say that was
kind of Brett Brett in me. And then I found, I found it
interesting as I started up as ayoung preacher, the trajectory

(38:59):
or how should I say the, the, the, the direction in which the
church has traveled in the United States of America is
fascinating. I only know this because I'm in
this and I'm, and I've done this.
And that is if you look at kind of our migration, maybe in the
church location, we do a lot of work in the suburbs and, and not
as much in the urban core. By the way, nothing wrong with

(39:21):
that. We're all God's children.
It's awesome. But ironically and traditionally
and typically, there are kind ofculture centers in the world,
right? There's, there's a reason LA is
LA, New York, Paris, we could goon and on.
But these are culture hubs. And if you look at kind of the
influencers and the writers and the speakers and the thinkers
and the dancers and the orders, they all kind of migrate.

(39:43):
I mean, we were sitting here in Nashville.
Nashville is a hub. Nashville is a bastion of art
and culture and influence to theworld.
For some reason, I just started to go, man, we gotta like, I
would say go upstream, which is where the culture flows.
There's this scene, The Devil Wears Prada.
Oh, do I love it, Meryl Streep, that I just am in love with her.

(40:04):
But she, remember, the Anne Hathaway character comes in and
she's kind of got this frumpy outfitter.
I don't know if that's an OK word.
And. And she's like, I'm not, yeah.
She's like, I'm not really into fashion.
And Meryl Streep looks at her and says, oh, sweetie.
And she breaks down her old outfit and how it was directly
impacted by what they set out seven, eight years ago in that

(40:26):
office. And like, in other words,
whether you like it or not, you're so cute.
You know how people be like, dude, I, I hate pop culture.
I'm not. I do.
I do my own thing, but it's not how it works.
For whatever reason, the way theworld works is there are things
that we're all affected by, by the culture curators and the
culture creators. It's always been that way, and

(40:46):
that's OK. Sistine Chapel, you know, all
the art and everything. I say that to say, and I think
we connect on this. I signed up to do what I do to
win. I don't know any other way.
And what that means to me is like if I played in the NFL and
I have friends and I was the chaplain, you play to win one

(41:10):
game and it's called the Super Bowl and you get the Lombardi
Trophy. You get a paycheck, whatever.
But ultimately, like it's just that simple.
In our line of work, there's only one way to win and it's the
only thing I can't get. We the world, so we win the
world. Now people say, oh, that's quit,
that's cute, that's sweet, whatever.

(41:30):
I just combine cute and sweet toquit.
But like like, you know, like that, that's all great.
No, no, no, no. Like I'm like my sacred text
tells me in one case it says people like me showed up in the
city and say they've turned the world upside down.
Like I believe I want people to experience the benefits of
forgiveness and connection and intimacy and alignment with the

(41:52):
universe and God and the animalsand the flowers.
Like I'm really serious about this.
And I believe that we have the greatest story to tell in the
whole wide world. So then the objective should be
so there's many people could hear it as possible.
So then naturally it only makes sense to me that the influencers
of the age, which is always beentrue indicatively of human

(42:12):
history, would would also tell the greatest story ever told.
And so, and then I go under the text of the New Testament and I
see Paul and Ephesus and I see him in I see him in these in
these culture centers. And that just provokes me
because the goal is just that more people would know they're
already forgiven and loved by God.

(42:33):
And so I'm just, I'm, I'm down. And I lastly, I'll just say the
irony is like people will ask melike a young person gave up to
me at a coffee shop the other day and I this is embarrassing,
but they're like, hey, you know,I know who you are.
I was like, bro, thank you. That's always flattering.
That's amazing. He's like, bro, I have a heart
to pastor celebrities too. And I feel like God's called me

(42:54):
to pastor celebrities. And I was like, OK, wait a
minute, this has gotten out of hand.
It's no, no, no, no, no. And I was like, bro, I think I
lied because I was like, bro, that's so sick.
Awesome. Like love you.
I didn't know what to say, Miles, because I was like, I
don't know if that's the thing. I'm called to serve humanity in
the respective cities that God places me.

(43:14):
I do live in LA. You do live in Nashville.
And so with that, I'm open to everybody.
I just want to go on record to say the vast majority of people
that I lead care for, pastor, listen to and pray over.
They're not celebrities, but there are a few that are.
And it's worked out that way providentially with God.
And I honor that and that's sacred to me.
And I want to protect individuals who are under a

(43:35):
microscope and have influence. But I don't know, sometimes with
this whole like I'm going to pastor celebrities, like, bro,
if you got a heart for humans, who knows what's possible.
But I also know it is a little bit different these days to, to
be a quote UN quote celebrity. I mean, the pressure that comes
with it is, is astronomical. So I don't, I don't want that
person who met me in the coffee shop to hear this and then feel

(43:55):
sad because I do think you're awesome and God can you?
What would you say to him if youhad a had another window where
they had a little more time? How might you?
Hey, can I can I ask you about that?
Yeah. What do you mean?
What have you felt from God? Well, I just felt like, you
know, I love LA. OK, tell me more.
I I I love celebrities. Yeah, I do too.

(44:16):
Most people do. What have you felt from God?
And I think I would dig in, tellme your origin story.
Tell me what you felt and I think what we could uncover
together, which would be my goal.
I don't want to be patronizing. I really mean that is that I
think what God's called you to is to love people in Los Angeles
of all different kinds and just be open to what God and you

(44:40):
clearly have a heart for people of influence.
Start praying for them, bro. Like literally like talk to God
about it and then find ways you can serve and then let the chips
fall where they may. I know enough to know about you
and your journey, you and Vanessa and your family that
like you, you have incredible influence with people of great

(45:01):
influence. But but like, you really love
humans and they happen to be humans too and in some cases
have lost their humanity and youwant to give it back to them.
And so, I don't know, am IA purist, Am I being and am I
being silly somehow? That matters.
How you come at it matters to mebecause celebrities are so
leveraged. The last thing we need is

(45:22):
pastors being called to them so they can leverage them as well.
Yeah, come on. But well, and I think I would
just add, if we're, if you ever get a chance to hear this
message that I love what you just said and that when you said
I love celebrities, most people would stop there and be like,
oh, that's dangerous, That's a problem.
What you said is me too. Who doesn't?

(45:43):
And then, but then you started to ask the right questions to
invite it was a him right, his, his why.
That's ultimately all you were saying is hey, and if we had a
little more time and not to coffee shop blonde.
I think it's spend time on the why because I see a lot of
people even in my space that know I also affiliate with some
people with influence that they are intrigued by it.

(46:04):
And I think their intentions areoften very pure.
But if you don't know your why and you find yourself in that
scenario, they can end up chewing you up and, and spitting
you out. Because really what I feel I'm
called to is to be a good human in a, in a very dehumanizing
ecosystem. And, and there's, and that's not
an easy thing to do, right? So when you think about it, I'm

(46:26):
trying to go up and be the all, it's a very weird world and and
it's appetizing because of the influence.
But the it's, it's, you said it's upstream, it's upstream and
it's the measures of walking upstream.
That's what it feels like. It's not, it's not an easy lift.
It's very difficult. It comes at a personal cost.
But if you know your why, if youreally know your why and if it

(46:49):
has anything to do with the greater calling and a ripple
and, and loving people and, and influence and loving on you so
that you can through your words and art and music, encourage my
kids. You know, I think we need a lot
more people humanizing dehumanizing scenarios.
So there's no, no criticism at all.
We just I want to invite you just as you did to get into your

(47:11):
wife. I was I got invited to speak at
this conference. It's a long time.
It was about 10 years ago. And I don't know why they chose
me because I didn't have the experience at that time to do
it, but I did it and it was too.It was a behavioral health
conference, a lot of psychologists and therapists,
and it was kind of put on by Music Cares, which was the it's
the philanthropic arm of the Recording Academy.
Yeah, yeah, it's. A great, great, one of the
favorite charities, a great charity, but they organized it

(47:35):
and the idea was how do we better love on and support
artists, creatives, the music community.
And so you've got a lot of therapists there that some of
them never sit in front of an artist, but everybody is
aspiring to learn and be how do I be a better caregiver, better
therapist to these folks. And I had an opportunity to
speak and the one thing I wantedto do was to see, is there a way

(47:57):
to normalize that? Because a lot of times because
of our training, people get intoour space and think I'm
unaffected by who you are. I mean, that's just that's where
they start. There is not one bit of
transfers or counter transfer happening.
The fact that I'm sitting acrossfrom this celebrity right here
we go. And, and the keep in mind,

(48:18):
people with influence have created platforms.
They are bloodhounds when it comes to sniffing out anything
disingenuous. And they will sniff you out
faster than anybody's business. And the one thing, they're at a
deficit of his trust. And so if you want to get in
there, then you want to build trust, which means you have to
be authentic, you have to be human.
And that's the one thing that issurprises people sometimes is

(48:38):
when you're in that space. I'm just as big a fan sometimes
as I am a mentor or a guide. It's like I love, well, you
can't. I love what you do.
I'm a fan of what you do. And when you see I had to get in
that world and see that they do that with one another before I
realized that was OK. It wasn't just OK as normal.
It would be odd for one A level artist me to other and other

(48:59):
label artists and not say I appreciate your work instead of
just trying to play it cool. So what I did in that room, I
thought, well, I can go with this.
I can go with this directly and try to call people out 'cause I
know if I said, hey, raise your hand if you've ever felt a
little hooked by a celebrity, you know, you know what hooked
means and how many transference or counter transference or OK,

(49:20):
OK, and I would have got, you know, nobody's going to admit
that in front of their peers because we're not supposed to
and we. Can't.
You're impervious. You're not.
So I did. I spread.
I said there's four corners in the room and I'm going to come
up with a profession. And I'd like for you to put
yourself when you were 678 yearsold and I want you to stand in
the corner you most relate to and say, I want to be a

(49:42):
professional athlete. I think I put a name on it just
to I want to be a professional actor.
I want to be a professional Broadway dancer.
And I came up with a few, and then everybody migrated from the
middle of the room. Not one person out of 400 people
in that room couldn't affiliate with something as a child that
they looked at and thought, I want to be that.

(50:04):
It's fascinating. 100%. 100% so right there.
I thought if if you dreamed about this as a child because
something about it felt attractive to you, then to come
into it thinking you have no bias whatsoever is a massive
mistake. Because we've all set our sights
on something like this as a young child and the people we're
here to serve are the people that have done it.

(50:25):
So it's not to me, it's not really coming into a scenario
with somewhat of influence to try to be effective, to pretend
like we're too cool to not be affected in the environment.
It's more how do I be in that environment and be able to be
human, but also separate and step back from what could get in
the way and create more bias forhow I can be a truth teller in

(50:48):
your circle. And one of the, and the only way
you do that is to be attractive.And I think your authenticity
speaks to it. And it's attractive because
you're honest. It's like, I love celebrity.
How do you do? Who doesn't?
We all kind of follow sports figures and celebrities that we
like. And I love that.
You also said I'm a minister to a large group of people and a

(51:09):
few of them happen to be this because you do get branded that
way sometimes. And it's been interesting how
celebrity pastors, you mentionedTD Jakes as well, end up
becoming not just people who work with celebrities.
They kind of become celebrities in in their own right or known
or in. And that's where it gets even

(51:30):
gets harder. You and I just had a good
conversation about that earlier.And I've done a lot more
coaching to people who have beenvery public then I have been
public my myself, a little bit of a taste of that.
How did it affect you and what came first?
Did you work with public people and then became very public?
Or did you become very public asa pastor and then start to work
with public people? I mean, definitely feel like

(51:53):
worked with public people. And then I think, you know, and
there's, it's what's interestingand you're so good at assessing
this. Like there's, but relevancy is
just so important. All of this is so relevant.
And it's just, it's just in different stages and spaces and
sizes and, and layers. And, you know, I felt like I was

(52:14):
popular in high school at a Bible study in my high school
and we had the biggest high school in the state at 2000
students and invited everyone tocome here and be preached at my
last day of school and in the football stadium.
And, you know, and in my little high school, like, bro, I was,
you know, we were killing it, you know, So it's all, you know,
there's different stages and places, but I think what came
first was being kind of a, a safe place, man.

(52:40):
I mean, I would love to unpack the psychology of suddenly I was
the safe place for public figures and then my public
profile started to grow, whetherit's a sell of a book or spoke
on a a stage that that that wentwell on the Internet and that

(53:02):
dynamic was very interesting. Miles of like coming back to the
public figure and the public different public figures kind of
looking at you like are you leveraging this?
Just very interesting. A lot of no comments and book
tour interviews about certain celebrities.

(53:24):
That was a dance. But I'll say the only thing I
did a lot of things wrong. But the one thing I did do right
was I came forward and said to that to the different people
that had public personas. Hey, it's come up a lot that you
and I know each other. How do you want me to handle
that? I want to honor what I do is all

(53:47):
about protecting you. And so how would you like me to
go about that? And it's funny, that
conversation seemed to mean a lot.
And I'm not sure how I came across that.
I think maybe it was just me going, I don't know what to say
in some of these interviews because I'm getting got back
then. I don't even know what that was.
We're like, yes, we'd love to have you on the show.
And I was like, wow, they're really interested in my book.

(54:08):
And then it's like, it's not about your book at all, buddy.
You're getting interviewed aboutyour friend, you know, and
you're like, uh oh, I think, youknow, I'm the idiot.
And so, so kept a lot of sense of humor in in the process.
But man, the cool thing is, is like these public figures became
real advisors in my in my small scaled back world of being known

(54:30):
as a as a preacher communicator.They were able to really, we got
to turn the tables a little bit where I was the spiritual guide.
Now they're like, hey, couple things.
I mean, I've literally had older, well known and women and
I won't say who they've come to me and like, oh, sweetie, that's
not how you do an interview. Like that was so adorable.
Don't do that again, OK. And I'm like, what did I do?

(54:52):
They're like, yeah, you can't dothat.
Here's what you should do. And that became a really cool
way to bond as well of them, youknow, starting to really give me
advice and and challenge me and help me in that sort of thing.
So, but man, it's a dance. And I guess my motto is like the
the song's going to change without any notice, but just
keep dancing, you know, And I'm honored to, to dance with these

(55:15):
friends. They're brilliant, wonderful,
genius, incredible people. And I just want to go on record
to say I think it's adorable howour culture is just like they're
famous for being famous. Nah these individuals that many
of us admire and look up to are very uniquely, highly skilled,
oftentimes incredibly thoughtfulpeople have given themselves to

(55:39):
their craft or to their and I just find it to be a, a, a
privilege, you know, to have some proximity to watch them do
their craft. I feel like I get a front row to
some some real savants and geniuses and I'll have fun
stories for my grandkids someday.
So that's. Cool.
Some of the stories we have, we'd never be able to tell.

(56:01):
But totally. But I think the grandkids can
take. The grandkids.
Well, I I wanted to spend a minute there only because you
get the label a lot. If I say my friend Judah, if I
say you're an essay, Oh, he's a celebrity pastor.
He's the guy that pastors all the celebrities.
And in some ways it always bugs me 'cause I feel like it
cheapens your brand a little bit.
It shouldn't. But but people make up a story

(56:22):
about that as if that's what you've been in pursuit of for
personal gain. And I always know different
'cause I know the whole back story, but I wanted people to
hear a little bit about the backstory.
And I would encourage anybody 'cause I think, you know,
whether you're in a seat like ours, you know, a seat of where
we encourage people and mentor people with the tools that we've
been armed with. I think our will gets a little
too fixated and we have a bit ofan obsession.

(56:43):
And I, I would just encourage asbest you can, this is what it's
taught me to do being around this community is I've learned
to separate the human from what they do, who they are and what
they do. And one of the saddest things
I've ever seen from people that are really well known as they
lose their ability to ever make a first impression again.
Think about that. All of us get to go into, most

(57:07):
of us get to go into a room and meet somebody with a clean
slate. But if once people know who you
are, they make up a story about what that means about who you
are and give people the dignity as best you can to realize and
recognize, oh, my goodness, I'm enthralled with your art.
I'm enthralled with the product that you put out into the world.
And I know there must be a humanbehind that.

(57:27):
And try to have a little grace and empathy about the human.
And I think we'll dehumanize that community a little less.
And I think their influence willget a little more sticky because
they got a lot of good to say. And I think there's so many
great artists out there in the world that are wanting to turn
their message of one of meaning and value and unity.
And we've seen this before when the world gets pretty polarized,
usually the artists are the onesthat bring us back together.

(57:48):
And so I want to give these artists that are out there
making a statement and putting themselves out in the world,
just like you said, a tremendousamount of grace.
And when and, and I can, I can tell you from being behind the
scenes, it's cool for a minute and it's, it's always cool in
some way if you love art, I lovegreat art, I love great music.
I love being around it. But at the end of the day, it's
just humans trying to do human things, complicated and

(58:10):
difficult, because you've been teed up that way and you've
taken a swing to be a little bitmore public with your craft.
It's come with its fair share ofcriticism, no doubt about it.
I've read some of the press and all that stuff and talk about
criticism because I think it used to be that not many people
could relate to that unless they've done something similar

(58:32):
to what you've done. Everybody now that is on any
kind of social platform has a public profile.
Even if it's public to four people, it's a public profile
and we are all prone to being judged and criticized based on
what it is we communicate with the world.
How have you found? It'd be helpful to navigate
that, or have you? Or have you that's such a

(58:54):
knowledgeable question, follow up.
It excites me because Chelsea and I have a new theme to the
next chapter of our life and I'mreally excited to share it.
And I that sounds like I'm setting up a sermon, but it
won't be a sermon. But it is deeply meaningful to
me right now and it almost feelssacred.

(59:18):
But I'll say my first premise, which has really worked well for
me, and it's going to sound so such a such a simpleton, but
here it is. Wow, someone's thinking about
me, whether good, bad or ugly. What a bonus.
A lot of people move through this life and don't get thought
of. And by the way, typically when

(59:38):
there's visceral towards you, you've been thought up or
thought of so much that people are thinking about you.
They've worked up themselves over you to a point of they
oppose you and don't like you. It might sound strange, but
somewhere in there is a cosmic compliment that wow, you have

(01:00:01):
done something with your life. And I think, you know, my dad
used to say, you know, congratulations, people talking
about you, you must have done something.
And so I as simple as that sounds.
I do absorb that quite a bit andI kind of retell that story in
my mind like, man, you know, what a privilege, what an honor.
It gets awkward, you know, when you're at a urinal and someone's

(01:00:22):
confronting you in an airport, you know, so there's there's
awkward moments where you're like, all right, this is
counterproductive and and, and abummer or your kids are with
you, that sort of thing. But here's my big miles.
I'm so excited about this and I feel proud to share it with you
because I feel like you embody it and I really mean that.
So there is this scripture. I think it's Paul.
He says let your gentleness be on full display.

(01:00:45):
I want people to see that you are gentle.
So I didn't do this. Chelsea did this.
She's the lead theologian in ourchurch.
But she looked up the word gentle.
OK, great. It means deference, kindness,
whatever. Then she asked ChatGPT when the
word gentle would have been heard, let's say some 2000 years

(01:01:08):
ago. What was the cultural
understanding of the concept of gentleness socially?
And this is where it all just exploded.
When Paul says I want you to be gentle, in that era and that
time, it was literally gentleness was something that
those who had the upper hand, however you define that could be

(01:01:28):
more money, could be more influence, could be more
consistency, stability, protection, closer family, a dad
who cared for him. Whoever has the upper hand that
they take the bulk of responsibility to humble

(01:01:50):
themselves, defer, forgive and say, hey, I love you.
And all I'm saying is that I am going to become an old
gentleman. And I already see that in you.
It's one of the things I think you and all the friends that

(01:02:11):
love you admire about you. There's a true gentleness.
And it's gentleness is that rarecombination of like strength and
sensitivity and deference and decorum.
And it's like all these things that you that you really do
possess. And I here's what I'm going to
do. And it has everything to do with

(01:02:32):
my critics. I'm not going to fight them.
I think they're all pretty smart.
And by the way, some of them have really good points.
That's how I feel. I'm just like, yeah.
So you try to listen to some of it.
If you think there's something meaningful to try to explore,
it's like, OK, well, maybe you're calling us some.
So for the most part, you and what we, we, we would call in my

(01:02:54):
world with your strategy number one, it's called a reframe,
basically taking a scenario, reframing it so that you can see
it a little differently, IE at least they're talking at least.
They're talking. It's a.
It's a good reframe. It's a way to take.
Is anything that they're saying may be worthwhile?
And in that we would, we would. It's just basically
contemplating and stepping back from a scenario and taking a

(01:03:18):
piece of information that you don't want to hear to be able to
hold it long enough so that you can see.
Is there any value in it for me?That that's how I handle all my
critics. I just want to say that's that's
it right there. That's so good.
But the short of it, Yeah, your.Playbook, by the way.
I just. I'm giving a little color.

(01:03:39):
It's amazing how you describe myplaybook so much better than me.
But I I do want you to know I'm going to, I'm just going to be
gentle and not gentle sounds like weakness in today's
culture. But I'm going to admit
something. I have been given an upper hand.
There's a lot of ways I have an upper hand.
My my dad, we've just we've talked about it.
We've talked about this before. To have a dad like that to guide

(01:04:02):
me like that for 30 years. He passed when I was 30.
But like I got an upper hand, you know, and recognize that the
bulk of responsibility, you knowwhat, even in these cases where
I've lost friends in the I mean,this article came out that I
felt was impacted by old friendsof mine, that I'm a cult leader.
And I want to be like, you know,but it's like, it's like, yeah,

(01:04:24):
but I have an upper hand here. And so I'm going to be gentle.
I'm going to forgive. In fact, in some cases, Chelsea
and I are making a list of some friends that we're going to go
out of our way just to just contact in a non threatening way
and say, hey, will you forgive us?
Feel like we failed you here. We love you, wish you well,
always in your corner thinking about you.
There may not be a need to reconnect in terms of

(01:04:46):
consistency and weekly friendship and that sort of
thing. But I'm just going to move.
The rest of my life is going to be defined by by gentleness or
meekness, which is strength under control.
I'm just ready. I'm ready, ready to to, to, to,
to be that guy. I'm really attracted to that
guy, IE you, you know, I like that in people.
So that's who I'm going to be. And I feel like it's God's given

(01:05:10):
me the energy to do it, the passion to do it.
I suddenly, by the way, if you're like, well, how do I know
if I want to be gentle? If suddenly you got the urge to,
to reach out to people who've hurt you and just let them know
that you love them and you wish them well.
By the way, there's layers and levels that you've taught me.
Some of these people need to be in jail and you really shouldn't
have contact with them. You know, so there are levels to
everything I'm saying here, within reason.

(01:05:32):
But in the cases of, of many of our friends that we felt kind of
hurt by. And I can't believe they said
that. It's like, look how blessed I
am. Like we have friends who are
upset at Chelsea and I have. And I think part of it is I'm
still married after 25 years. That's a level of an upper hand.
And that's the grace of God thatI can be more gracious to my
friend who's gotten divorced. And he's kind of tried multiple

(01:05:56):
different scenarios and it's notworking out for him.
And I'm kind of like, well, you know, why not be gentle and kind
and encourage him and let him know I'm thinking about him and
praying for him. So that's where I'm going.
That's where I'm going for the next 25 years.
I'm just going to be this, this gentle guy.
And whether or not that translates on the golf course, I
doubt it. I have.
Another you nightmare. That's why I won't golf with

(01:06:18):
you, because I don't want you torealize that I'm as bad as as I
really AM. Come on.
No, I'm breaking golf clubs likeit's a whole thing.
I have gotten better though, I really.
Am I Thought you meant like actually because you're a
scratch golfer? I've I've been making some good
scores, but I mean like when I. You mean mentally healthy?
Yeah, mentally, like, I mean, break.
Clubs broke clubs. Yeah, I don't know why.

(01:06:39):
I think it's like how I get certain emotions out.
I need you to assess it at some point.
We can talk talk about it later.But you love it.
Don't. You obsessed and remember we
just talked in when we were in Idaho together.
I didn't realize like I thought you just went golfing with like
golfing buddies ears to like entertain them and just be
there. But you like genuinely love the
game. I like the game, which means a

(01:06:59):
lot. Can you play with me tomorrow at
10:30 AM? Where?
Here in the Troubadour Club? I'm being dead serious.
What have I got to? We have three.
We're looking for four. That'd be awesome.
Did you have a meeting? But we said it's.
Possible OK it's so past due forus to tee it up.

(01:07:21):
It really is. How cool is that?
I just remembered that we're, we're still looking for a
fourth, OK, Corey was setting itup for us.
Who's a member there? And he said.
True, it was an awesome try. Have you played it?
Love it. Yeah, love it.
You, I'm just going to circle back to a question that I asked
earlier and I wanted you to giveit just a little bit more color
in another lane because I had said I've talked about your

(01:07:43):
profession even more than I normally do because I think your
profession to a lot of secular people is widely misunderstood.
And I just kind of wanted them to understand it a little bit
more. And now it's not just so
one-dimensional like I'm here topreach to people that come sit
in front of me. It's actually I got a pretty
good gift of communication and Iwant to figure out how I can
circulate that to the world withthe message I deeply believe in.
That's why I've always seen you and that's why it means a lot.

(01:08:04):
Some there's some pastors and I've got my old wounds.
You and I just talked about someone that come from my faith
and I've got my current faith. And but there's some pastors
that I don't know, I feel a little threatened by it, you
know, because I, I realize what they know and I know they're
usually going to lead with that.And that's OK.
It's just who's, who's the humanbehind the, the theology, you

(01:08:27):
know, is there somebody in therebehind what you know?
And, and you always lead with that, which is kind of
refreshing. But I had asked, I said, OK, as
a good communicator, as a man offaith who's trying to live
principled but imperfectly, how has, how does that benefit your
personal life as a father and asa husband?
Because I love you and your wife.

(01:08:48):
Do this marriage Mondays, right?Where you, you, you go on and
you just talk about marriage, the ups and downs and the goods
and bads and give encouragement to people.
And so I make up and I know you a little bit.
So it's a little inside baseballthat I, I know you're a great
dad and I know you're a great husband.
I know you're a great friend. I know you're a great friend,
really great friend, but how have these your natural skill

(01:09:10):
set? How does it benefit you in in
these other lanes? Earlier when I asked you, I just
want to you, I, I appreciate it where you went first because you
went to the challenge side. You're like, here's where it's
haunted me. And you said, I think you think
it's been helpful and it's haunted me at times.
And you, You gave some light to the haunted side, but never said
much about the help. The help.

(01:09:34):
You know what's cool is you wakeup one day and your kids are
growing and you realize, like, yo, I, I can really connect with
my kids. I was a youth pastor for a
decade. Oh my, wait a minute.
Oh my word. I've been in like training for
this. Like, this is fun.
As silly as it sounds without them knowing, I've given myself

(01:09:58):
permission to use the same toolsis such a good word.
But I feel like you use another word of like ways to kind of
like connect with people and open them up and get them
talking. I have that, you know, that I've
been using for years. I mean, there's nothing like
cold Turkey walking up to a highschool and getting an OK to walk

(01:10:18):
the lunchroom as a youth pastor.And then you're just looking for
kids to connect with. I mean, if you can develop that
skill, it's like and you get a teenager living in your house.
And I, it's silly as it sounds like I started to go wait a
minute. Because parenting has a real,
real strange way of letting you know you don't know anything and
you are an idiot. There is nothing better.

(01:10:39):
And you're a nightmare. And you're just like, you know,
And it's like everything you used to know.
Like I could sit with another set of parents, which I did so
many times, hundreds of times, and told them how to help their
teenager. But now it's my teenager and I'm
just like, I got nothing. So I just started to give myself
permission almost to kind of puton that hat and be like, Hey,
what would you tell yourself right now to do?

(01:11:01):
And not let the emotion run, runme over and turn me into a
version that's not even me or the person I've encouraged other
dads to be. So that that was a real
awakening. It probably happened when the,
when the boys were like 6789 kind of a thing.
I was like, wait a minute. And so that that's been that.
That's been really fun. And yeah, I mean, I don't know,

(01:11:26):
I feel like it helps me win arguments with Chelsea.
And that's funny. You know, I'm like, I'm like,
she's like, I can't argue with you.
You're too good at this. You always win.
And that feels really good. Miles, I'm not going to lie to
you. When she starts doing that, I'm
like, I do always win. I'm not going to lie.
But actually, though, her logic is irrefutable, as I say.
But yeah, I mean, the cool thingabout what I get to do is the

(01:11:47):
whole premise of my life is, is forgiveness.
It's unearned, unmerited forgiveness.
And so, man, if that doesn't setyou up to keep a marriage going,
to keep, to keep your kids connected.
Forgiveness is the name of what I do.
It's the definitive characteristic of of the, the,
the, the faith that I subscribe to.

(01:12:09):
So this idea of just forgiving is, is something I can never
escape. Tonight I'm going to do a Bible
study. It's going to have a lot to do
with forgiveness. You know, that's kind of what we
do. So in, in, in my line of work
when I go home, it's like, well,they're here's one non
negotiable for me. You can't, you can't be a

(01:12:29):
disseminator of forgiveness and not just forgive your wife,
forgive your kids and or when they ask for forgiveness be like
no problem. And so I feel like I do have a
head start in that regard. Well, and I want people to, I
want people to hear that from because I think people pedestal
folks that study certain things and get good at certain things
and have a lot of influence and things to say.

(01:12:51):
And neither of us either. 1 I don't think you are.
I certainly am far from a parenting expert.
I think I've got some experienceand expertise to say about what
it's like to be a parent. But one of the big ones you've
already said, which is how humbling it actually is.
And it was fun. We talked about your profession.
You were like, I'm really confident and we got to
parenting. It's like I feel like I got
nothing. And and yet it's not confidence

(01:13:15):
in parenting. That has been my superpower.
It's just belief. Like I have this deep belief
that I really, there's nothing Iwant to do more than to be a
good father to my parents, to mykids and to my parents.
Did I say that? Not kidding.
There's nothing, nothing more I want to do then just be a good

(01:13:37):
father. And I believe, I believe that to
my core. That's a, that's a truth in me
that I believe. And I also have to take the
other side of that, which is I'mnot going to get that right all
the time. And I think people in our
profession that go out with loveand forgiveness and empathy and
courage and there's only so muchenergy you have in your tank.

(01:13:58):
And, and when we pour out, out, out, out, out, there's no way we
won't come home sometime and there be a deficit of what we
have left to pour into the people that matter the most.
I can't tell you if my kids are at six and eight and I've
already made that mistake more than I'm proud of.
And the only reason I share thatis I think a lot of you have
too. I really do think a lot of

(01:14:19):
people listening that and I wantyou to hear I know the parenting
experts and they make the same mistake makes me feel a little
bit better. But they they have the tools
that make this make the same mistakes.
And I think if we can get in thecurrency of repair over the
comparison of the RIP when it comes to parenting or any kind
of life strategy that we may pluck from our profession and

(01:14:40):
what we show the world or what we monetize.
But this is how we synthesize itand then bring it into a real
usable tool for love, connection, empathy, grace.
Then I believe we do that when we believe in each other.
And it's just a simple belief. Like I said, with extreme
confidence, you're a great father.
And how many times you've calledme and said, man, I really
dropped the ball. I feel like likes to do a

(01:15:01):
different. It didn't change my belief in
who you are at all because I know what it is you desire to do
and I do probably, but you really desire to love your kids.
Well, and, and I, I do too, and I think most parents have that
desire. But I think we get caught up in
what we're getting wrong. And sometimes it gets us so far
buried behind those messages that we fail to find a way out
to even begin to get it right. And usually when we're on the,

(01:15:24):
the, the feed of, of what it looks like, none of it's
realistic. I mean, you're going to trust
me. I, I try not to get, I said it
earlier with social, I'm trying new to social.
I'm trying to figure it all out.I try not to just give you the
highlight reel, but I, I'm, I mean, it's like I'm flipping
through my vacation fellows. Like, man, we look good right
there, man. How's it going and.
You want to post it and share it, but you got to remember

(01:15:45):
that's what we're all doing. I did not.
I did not take a picture, video and show you the meltdown that
happened the 30 minutes before. But I can assure you the
meltdown happened. Yeah, I can assure you repair
not compare. Can I just say like 21/18/16?
If I could give other than God'sunending forgiveness, I would

(01:16:07):
give that as a gift to humans everywhere.
But it's already been given. If someone asked me, what could
you give, you know, to a family man, a dad or mom who are
saying, and by the way, there's a lot of single moms, single
dads out there. There's a lot of grandmas and
grandpas raising, raising babies, uncles and aunts.

(01:16:30):
But like the ability to say I'm going to be a beacon, I'm going
to be a disseminator of repair. And the way that happens, I
thank God. My dad, with tears in his eyes,
God bless him, he showed me froma young age, he'd sit the family

(01:16:52):
down. It wasn't always his dramatic
hey, I need to ask your forgiveness.
Judah, Wendy, my sister's name. We'd be 65 and you know, early
on I was like in dad would classically the story went, I'd
say, Judah, do you forgive me? And I would go Yep, Yep.
And it was done. And I grew up thinking that's

(01:17:14):
how you repair. And so I have done more things
than I'm ever willing to admit wrong in parenting.
But I tell you one thing Chelseaand I committed to, and
sometimes it was after like yelling, screaming and cussing.
And the sooner you do it, the more spiritual you are.
Maybe I don't know. But like, I don't know how that

(01:17:34):
works. But it's like sitting the family
down and saying, the other nightsomebody was telling me about a
buddy of mine who's getting baptized.
And to be honest, I'm so annoyedwith him and some other stuff in
his life. And I was like, well, that's
really good. He's been baptized.
But I'll tell you a couple. And I sat in front of the whole
family in the car and my daughter, 16 year old goes, wow,
we were having a really good time until you said that dad and
I got quiet for 20 minutes and Iwas mad.

(01:17:55):
And I want to tell her what I was meant next morning.
Hey, actually, no, it was the end of the drive.
Thank you very much. By the time we got home in the
20 minute drive, we got out of the drive and I said family, I
got I got to say, so will you forgive me?
Like that was unnecessary. I got some stuff there that's
just not OK. And I want to celebrate that
this person's been baptized. And you know, that's, that's not

(01:18:15):
who we are. That's not who I want to be.
And that commitment to repair. And what's so awesome about
repair is, is it's not like everything to me.
Everything, all the other elements of parenting and the
recipe of parenting who it takesa lot of a lot of like really
good work. But repair is like, it's just
somebody who says I'm a nightmare kids, Dad's here, will

(01:18:37):
you forgive me? And Oh my word, we've had the
best family moments ever in the environment of repair.
And well, you just said something I'll never forget.
I promise I'm done. But like that repairing, it's
the antidote to the comparing like it, I don't know, it just
sets you free from like, becauseyou almost fall in love with

(01:18:57):
each other again. And you're like, dad, you're the
best, like son, I'm sorry for doing that.
Will you hug me? And I kind of forget about the
whole world because you fall in love in this real deep
connective moment. And I'm not worried about the
Joneses, you know, So I just those words that you just put
together, which you do a lot forme.
Like that's that that is the mantra of of our parenting life.

(01:19:19):
It's like we're going to be big repair parents and we're just
going to call ourselves out. And perhaps that's been the
reason that our family's still intact so far.
Honestly, Vanessa and I, some ofour more intimate moments are on
the backside of repair. Sometimes I just want to plant
some conflict. So I got something to apologize
for because I know it's coming next.
Wait, I can share. No, we've got plenty of

(01:19:41):
conflict. I don't have to plan it.
But you've talked about your dada lot and I would imagine losing
him at 30. 30 Yep. Was was too too far, too soon?
Yeah. Do you remember the last
conversation or the parting message?
Yeah, it's deeply wild. He was.

(01:20:02):
He was watching me preach on a live stream.
His house was about a mile away from the church campus.
If you know our story, my dad started this church in 1992 with
20 people in a Courtyard Marriott.
Shout out to Courtyard Bon Bonvoy points.
I'm kidding. They're not our sponsor.
What am I doing? But Can you imagine if that's
how I snuck in Bonvoy? Oh, man.

(01:20:22):
I'm down. If you're out there, Mara.
But Miles and I will be your spokesperson.
But we started the church and itgrew and it was awesome.
And then my dad got diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which
now, ironically, could, could bemuch more treated.
But back then it was just absolutely a, a, a, a death
sentence. He's going to live six months,
live six years, miraculous. But in the process, his body

(01:20:44):
started to generate. And by the end he's kind of
stuck in his bed and he's watching me.
I was then the preaching pastor was going to, was going to take
over leadership of the church after he passed.
So he's watching on a live feed.And right after Sunday, I would
cruise over to dad's house and sit with him and say, Hey, what
do you think? And how'd it go?
And this particular Sunday, which was the the last time we
did this, he would, we would talk again when he would, he

(01:21:07):
would end up passing in Vegas atmy, at my sister's house.
But one of our probably the mostmeaningful combo, he, he crawls
out of bed and I'm like, what are you doing?
You know, and he, he just got onhis knee and he said, I want my
pastor to pray for me. I said, daddy said, you're,
you're my pastor. I know you're my son, but God

(01:21:32):
has set you in as the spiritual leader of this community and and
you're my pastor. And I just think it would be
awesome on a Sunday for my pastor to pray for me.
And I mean, you can imagine I was an absolute mess and I could
barely function. But it was, I think more than
anything, what was happening there in kind of our pastor
language world is it was a dad telling a son, you're you're

(01:21:59):
your own man. And I respect that, and I honor
that, and I'm proud of you. And we need that, don't we?
We need, you know, older fathersto tell the sons, I'm proud of
you and you're doing great. And so if nothing else, I'm
determined to be that, to be theold, gentle, secure man who

(01:22:23):
encourages the young men and women to be all that God has
designed them to be. So, yeah, it was a it was a one
of the most special moments of my whole life.
And for the life of me, I can't remember what I prayed.
So clearly that wasn't the point, but it was a moment that
that I certainly needed. And and there are days I still
go back to that moment and be like, hey, one thing he added

(01:22:44):
was I don't know where you're getting this content.
I don't know where you're getting it from, but it has to
be God because I've never heard the Bible like this.
I've never heard the Scripture like this.
And he literally said to me goeswhere are you getting this?
I said, dad, I don't know. Like, I feel like it's just
coming to me like on the stage. He's like, wait, you didn't
prepare. And then we, you know, we got
into some of the nuts. So he's like nuts and bolts,

(01:23:05):
like, like that was not in your notes.
I was like, no, he's like, son, that's from God.
He's crying. I'm crying.
And so it was a it was a moment of affirmation that that sticks
with me forever. Well, there's a lot of, it's
beautiful and there's a lot of people, I think that get handed
the baton and, and, and then people do what they do with the

(01:23:27):
times. And, and it's been fun to watch
you take that and run with it and see what you've done.
And that you, the way you've talked about we, we've talked
about your dad before, but we'venever spent this much time
hearing stories about your father.
And I love that it kind of organically went that way
because I really wanted to get to know you more.
And I feel like I know your dad more.
And ironically, I think that your dad, I'm getting to know

(01:23:47):
you more because I, I really do think of that sounds like he has
had a great legacy that and, andthen you carved out your path,
you're continuing to build your own.
And it's not something we leave behind.
It's something I think we live into.
And I think you're living into it in a really beautiful way.
There were a, a million things that I wanted to talk to you

(01:24:10):
about. And and I know we'll get time
because we got lots of time to do friends and relationship, but
I want to honor that you're too podcast in and thinking about
golf tomorrow already, I bet at 10:30 in the morning.
So. I'll see you there, but dude, I
haven't committed. Yet I hope so, but I I do want
to. But is it OK, one more question
and then I want to close something.

(01:24:33):
I've always you asked me a greatquestion earlier, which was the
way you frame questions. I think you're one of the best
question askers I've ever known.And I can't remember the frame,
but it it ultimately was something like tell me you you
invited me to talk about my relationship with faith and
where my struggle with it historically had been.
And then I and I gave you an answer that was one part

(01:24:56):
personal that I'll I'll save foranother time.
But the other part was I've always been genuinely curious
about the people that don't go to church or that don't believe
this. And would they feel comfortable
being with a community of peopleif we stripped away the insider
language and all the stuff that is in and we applied love and

(01:25:19):
intimacy and connection and grace and ideally common human
principles that we hope to all elevate and connect around to,
to make for a better humanity. Because we know that's that's
all in it. And that's really what you're
trying to teach. And, and I love that you don't
shy away from it because I thinkyou're really proud of the the
book of knowledge. But I'm curious for those that

(01:25:41):
are listening that are secular ears or not faith-based
Christian folks that and I and Iwould make up this a lot of
people because you know, we're, we're talking to a secular
audience. And how do you I think you've,
you've done a good job of being unapologetic about bringing your
beliefs into mainstream because you don't just pastor and

(01:26:01):
there's other things that you dotoo in the entertainment
community. And a lot of people don't know
that part of your storage. I think it's really cool, but
you do it unapologetically. But somehow you figured out a
way to do it approachable because I, I, I have some
similar beliefs, but I usually don't lead with some of the
language and I'm usually a little, you know, it's a find a

(01:26:22):
way through the back door and you just come in and you just
expose lead with the language, lead with who you are, But it
doesn't seem to push people away.
And I think that's what we all hope to be.
And I think there's a part of you that have recognized that
you, you may have an agenda under there, but it I've never
felt like you needed to convert me into a certain way of life or

(01:26:43):
belief. I think if you did have a
genuine hope about who I was as a human, I always felt like that
was first and whatever followed was just bonus.
And so I guess for those folks that have heard us come in and
out of Christian speak, we talked about Jesus, we talked
about Scripture, you know, we'vedone some good storytelling.
And, and what, how would you encourage them?

(01:27:03):
What's the message that somebodylike you who's a genuine
encourager that most of the earsprobably, you know, a lot of the
ears probably align somewhat, orthey're either asking questions
about the things that you teach.They want to hear from a
minister. But I love you as a minister,
but I really love you as Judah the, the guy.
And I've learned to love both. And I think you've got so much

(01:27:25):
to offer people beyond even where you spent your life.
What? What do you say to people out
there in the? World, I mean, it's, it's just
one of the most important questions and that I can think
of. So it means a lot.
It really does. Yeah.
So ultimately the way that I I feel about faith gets down to

(01:27:50):
how I see God. So which is in turns effects
dramatically how I move with him.
So I see God his favorite title in the sacred Scripture is
Father, which I just love that Isee him as the most secure,

(01:28:11):
safe, wonderful how I get emotional but gentle father.
So what what the reason that moves me is that we treat God
like he's a bashful, shy, reluctant heir apparent who's

(01:28:40):
socially awkward and doesn't really know what to say.
So we have to kind of do PR for him.
But I just get this overwhelmingfeeling that the, that the God
who moves mountains and controlsthe currents of the oceans and
seas of the world, like he, I mean, he's got stuff in the

(01:29:04):
ocean that we don't even know about.
And every once in a while our submarines pick it up and these
colors and these dimensions of things that were never it's like
just for him to look at. So like his, his immeasurable
beauty, you know, it's wild to me.
So the way that I see the world is that we're all we're there is

(01:29:29):
a father and we're all his kids,like all of us completely.
And we all look different and weall have lived different lives
and we all have really differentbackgrounds and contexts which
all need to be celebrated and weneed we need to care for each
other. But the way that I see that is

(01:29:51):
like he's never in a rush. He's so big and so grand that if
he wants to reveal himself, makeno mistake, he will.
That the things that the traditions of men have made
light of and minimized, I think are really sacred to him.

(01:30:17):
I think of the missionary work that some of the people from our
country have done where we have tried to kind of make people
look like us. That's just humans being humans
doing human things. But that's not God the Father.
He made us all beautifully different and wonderful.

(01:30:39):
The reason? Racism, it plays this this
really, really big role in my heart is not because I want to
hate people who are racist. Therein lies the problem.
I am myself then a racist. Is that the hating of one

(01:31:01):
another and the division of one another, which people fail to
realize that a lot of racism andand all the hate and stuff
that's happening right now in the world, a lot of it is
perpetuated and peddled by how we see God and religion.
And so that scares me, but I wonder if it's gosh, this is

(01:31:24):
such a big answer. But like the question means so
much to me. It's really hard to get through
it. But my point is like, if there
is a God and he is father man, like then to me, we are we're

(01:31:49):
all related and and more relatedthan we're not more connected
than we're not. And it's weird, bro.
Like I can go real weird and it'll probably frustrate some
fundamental Christians. But like I feel connected to
nature. I feel connected to animals
because we all have the same father.

(01:32:11):
And so to me, this idea of us and them is so not what the
Father is about. And I think he thinks some of
our lines down here are adorable.
And I think some of the lines down here are deplorable.
It's humans being humans. But I look into the future and I

(01:32:35):
can't help when I say change theworld.
I can't help but dream of a spiritual awakening, a human
awakening that awakens us to whoour Father is not.
Not even like I know doctrine and dogma is in there, but it's
like, even when people call me aChristian, and I know Christians
won't like this, but that title was never given by Jesus.

(01:32:57):
God didn't give us that title. Those were onlookers who tried
to describe they look like little Jesus's.
OK, cool. But like back in the beginning,
we were just people that were about the way of Jesus.
And like, I just feel connected to the earth.
I feel connected to, to, to other people.
And I think the reason I'm excited about, you know, you and

(01:33:20):
the work you do is because I think, I think I, there's an
envy that I have because I feel like you're smart enough to know
that, man, if you can leave someof the dogmatic doctrine and
religious mumbo jumbo behind, wemight be able to actually help
somebody here and like get to their heart because we're so
over traumatized with, with religion and all that's been

(01:33:44):
done. And I'm no historian, but enough
to know that a lot of it has been used to really destroy this
planet and each other. And so, yeah, I think there's
this thing in in me that's like,bro, you can tell me whatever
doctrine and dogma you believe in, but I don't think you
understand. Like, bro, I am you and you are
me. Like we have the same father.

(01:34:05):
It's how I see it. And I think he is as in love
with you as he is in love with me.
So I do dream, I do dream of a of a global revolution that
changes the world and where we start seeing each other for, for
who we are. Nothing is more important than
humans, nothing. So I blame you for asking that

(01:34:32):
question because you know, nothing's more important to me
in the whole world. So I, I don't exist to make
Christians. That's, that's not my goal.
It's to help people realize who they already are, you know, and
they're already loved and they're already forgiven and
they're already his. And that's just how I feel.

(01:34:54):
So I don't, my goal in life is not to make Christians.
My goal in life is to introduce them to their Father, their
eternal father who loves them and has them on their own unique
path. And oh boy, the fundamentalists
aren't going to like this. But that's you got to me too
late, man. I'm I'm already too far in love
with the father and all of his kids.

(01:35:16):
But that is my worldview. That's how I see the whole
world. And you know, I want as much as
the family to be together as possible.
Beautiful. There it is.
Thank you. Well, if there's anything I
could leave you with, it would be and and that that's that's

(01:35:38):
that's who I know you to be approachable.
You care about the table being big.
There's no requirement to sit atit.
It's not. Do you believe what I believe?
Do you? And and that's not I.
I have a lot of pastor friends. I love pastors 'cause they're
just, I mean. You help us a lot.
You study, you study this message in theology and you,

(01:36:00):
you've learned it and you becomeso exquisite with it, you can
teach it. I mean, I love teachers,
educators, pastors, because I think you do it for the reason
in which you have a deep belief that by speaking words through
you and over you, I can help you.
So I find pastors be for the most part, genuinely sincere and
sometimes I think it and it justall right, well, let's put the

(01:36:21):
script therapist, counselors, coaches.
We get so ingrained in in in what we know that sometimes it
becomes who we are. And I really want to.
I think the more we can strip itback and not get so fixated on
the titles or the language, but really see the humanist and one
another. We just happen to be almost
knowledge we believe in, but it proof to the answer to that

(01:36:42):
question. There's nothing I don't think
you love any more than the than people.
You you just you just love people and and that's what I see
that's a genuine so I would say just keep moving.
I mean, you've always been moving and keep moving in your
living room as a parent. Keep moving in your in your

(01:37:04):
marriage is a great husband. Keep moving in your church for
as long as you want to serve in that role.
Keep moving in the creative spaces in the, because we, I
believe we need storytellers to help storytellers be human.
And, and, and you're doing that,you know, people sometimes look
at you guys like us, like what are you guys doing all tied up

(01:37:25):
in the entertainment community? And, and once you get in there,
you, you, you realize, hey, we're storytellers.
So it's, it's just scratching anedge.
It's like, oh, OK, we're storytellers.
We found a home here in a way. And it happens to be a bunch of
rejects that are trying to figure out.
And so we fit there too. But I think there's a space for
more grace and more love and less comparison in the

(01:37:47):
storyteller framework so that that narrative gets passed on to
everybody's. What we all deserve is, is just
a a little bit better humanity. And I think guys like you,
leaders like you, you're going to get, because you've already
got enough eyes on you. Of course, you're going to get a
little bit more criticism for wherever you go, but I'm excited
about where you go and I'm excited about where you go with

(01:38:08):
church with, with, with all yourendeavors.
But I'm really excited to see what else you got cooking.
You know what's coming. What are you going to write
next? What are you going to talk about
next? What industry are you going to
influence next? Why am I excited about that?
Because I'm a recipient of it. You love me really well.
I said earlier we probably should have saved some of the

(01:38:29):
great conversation we had for this, but I wouldn't trade it
for anything because it's what Ineeded.
And you had this incredible instinct of meeting people where
they are and delivering what it is they need.
And I know that comes from, it'swhy I admire your faith so much.
I know it came straight from a source.
And I was like, it's, I believe it and I trust it.
And you see something in me. And I just want you to know I

(01:38:49):
reciprocate. I've always seen it in you.
I believe in you and myself. And I hope all the listeners
that are part of a human school will now get behind you and
continue to be went behind your sails.
We love you buddy, I love you. Thanks for being here.
And changed my life. Human School Register.
Register. There's no registering for human
school. Thank you, Marriott.

(01:39:11):
Thank you. Thank you, Bum boy.
Marriott, American Express. Thank you for that.
Wow, that was awesome. Thank you.
Gosh, that last question, man.

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