August 29, 2024 • 47 mins
Meet Rukayatu "Ruky" Tijani, the powerhouse behind Firm for the Culture. As a trademark attorney, she's on a mission to safeguard intellectual property and empower diverse founders. Ruky breaks down the key forms of intellectual property—trademarks, copyrights, and patents—and shows us how they're crucial for protecting brands, content, and inventions.
But that's not all. Ruky also dives into the vital need for marginalized communities to understand and engage with intellectual property. She's not just about business; Ruky's all about wellness too. She advocates for self-care, building a strong support network, and ensuring that entrepreneurs grasp the importance of protecting their brand right from the start.
Got burning questions? Reach out at (404) 425-9862.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps Black women thrive by providing adviceon effectively navigating the business development journey and offers advice to all women
on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Today, I'm speaking with Rukayatu "Ruky" Tijani a trademark attorney and the founder,creator, and managing attorney of Firm for the Culture.
(00:36):
Ruky founded Firm for the Culture after years of serving as an intellectual propertyattorney in the Silicon Valley office of the top litigation firm in the country.
Firm for the Culture was born out of Ruky's passion for the law, social impact, and socialentrepreneurship.
Ruky is a Nigerian -American first generation professional from the projects of Brooklyn,New York, a graduate of UC Berkeley School of Law, and a member of the New York and
(01:00):
California State Bars.
She loves to cook, sing, and hike.
Ruky, welcome to the podcast.
Woot, woot!
So good to be here, Rachel.
How are you?
I'm good.
I got to thank you so much for being here.
I know personally how valuable your time is.
Aw, shucks.
So for you to take time out of your day to come here and talk to me on mic, I reallyappreciate it.
(01:24):
So thank you so much.
Of course.
Well, thank you for having me.
Like, you are an amazing person.
So it's a privilege to be on your platform.
wow.
Thank you.
That's I'm flattered.
I'm flattered.
Let's let's dive right in.
I want to start with your founder story.
I would, you know, having read your background and knowing your background, it seemsobvious to me, maybe not to everyone, but it seems obvious to me that you are a very
(01:48):
talented IP attorney, intellectual property attorney.
And based on your background, it makes sense that you would strike out on your own andwant to start your own firm.
But why firm for the culture?
Because I imagine that diverse founders are
probably going to be less likely to seek out an intellectual property attorney.
Am I wrong?
So that is a really, really good question.
(02:10):
And before I address the likelihood of diverse founders seeking out an IP attorney, I dowant to start with the why behind her culture.
Yes.
And a lot of it relates to, to your point, my own background and experiences, but not inthe way that many would anticipate.
I'm a first generation in everything from the projects of Brooklyn, New York, graduatedfrom Berkeley, all this great fancy stuff.
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But even as I was navigating the upper echelons of success, I wanted to quit being anattorney.
It was difficult and not necessarily intellectually difficult, so to speak, but it washard to navigate spaces where you constantly found yourself as the only one who looked
like you.
And because of that,
(02:57):
Exactly.
And because of that, it just felt like our stories didn't matter.
It felt like our contributions to the culture didn't matter.
It felt like our creativity didn't matter.
So relating that to the question about why a lot of diverse founders may not necessarilyseek out an IP attorney, what I've realized in my experience is they're not encouraged to.
(03:20):
They're not told that
their amazing podcast name matters.
They're not told that a hashtag that goes viral, if they stick that on a shirt or if theyput that in front of a workshop title that can be federally protected, they're not told
that their drawings and their artistry can be protected.
They're not told these things.
(03:40):
So in realizing that these stories, much like my own, were not necessarily being centeredin the spaces I've navigated, I wanted to quit.
I wanted to quit.
Because otherwise the law just feels very inaccessible.
It feels very esoteric.
feels like this pie in the sky dream that I would never be able to accomplish because I'mnot white enough.
(04:07):
So frankly, right?
Right.
Right.
but even in the midst of wanting to quit, was divine intervention.
I'm a god, but also you'll hear him sprinkles around a couple of times in our conversationtoday.
And I had mentors and
I had counselors and I had just people in my circle really reminding me of why I decidedto become an attorney, which was really to give voice to those who may not look like the
(04:41):
status quo, so to speak, right?
In terms of navigating certain spaces and places.
So after
I decided to re recommit myself to the legal space.
I told myself it wasn't going to look the same way.
So before I struck out on my own, I joined the litigation firm in the Silicon Valley and Iloved it.
(05:07):
I loved engaging patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets.
I loved kind of being in the war room, so to speak, kind of getting ready for huge.
litigation cases on patents and the like.
But even then, the stories that mattered to me didn't seem like they mattered to thelawyers who are getting paid $750, $850, $1 ,000 an hour.
(05:33):
Right.
Right.
So because of that, I decided to start sharing for the culture, which really doubles as mylove letter to culture and to case law.
It allows me
to essentially affirm in myself as well as others, the intersection of culture and caselaw in a way that allows of founders like you, founders like the many amazing clients that
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I've been able to serve.
It allows them to see themselves in the story of intellectual property.
So that, yeah.
I was, I think what you're doing is, very important.
I think the first step too in letting them know that their intellectual property mattersis by explaining to them what intellectual property is because I think part of the
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problem, and this is just what I think, and if you disagree, then feel free to let meknow, but I think part of the reason that they don't necessarily reach out to an IP
attorney is because they don't understand the things that are.
intellectual property, like you mentioned hashtag when you were talking about it.
And you alluded to it when you were talking about how you enjoy working with patents andtrade mercy and things like that.
(06:44):
But let's start with giving the listeners an education on what is intellectual property.
Let's start there.
Absolutely.
And I think it's a really great point that you raise.
So you've seen me live.
So I'll start off with this.
What is that?
I'm loving it.
Exactly.
Or.
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So is that NBC?
It is.
It's NBC, is probably, you're probably hearing that more so than ever before because we'rethe Olympics.
Right.
So believe it or not, those sounds are trademarks.
And what is a trademark?
A trademark is a form of intellectual property, a brain baby as I like to call it, amanifestation of the mind in a way that's tangible, concrete, and monetizable.
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Trademarks, which are literally the names, colors, sometimes even sounds associated withsomebody's businesses, goods or services, trademarks allow two companies to sell the same
exact thing at the same exact time to the same exact person in the same exact geographicallocation, so long as their stories are distinct, so long as their brands are distinct.
(08:04):
Think about Samsung versus iPhone.
Think about Uber versus Lyft, right?
Think about Hershey's versus Dove chocolate, so to speak, right?
So these distinct stories are what matter when we're talking about trademarks.
Can a business or brand owner allow a consumer when navigating the marketplace toimmediately identify
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who the business owner is, the quality of goods and services that they're selling, and thestories that are related to the goods and services in a way that allows them in split
seconds to pledge loyalty to that brand in the form of payment, in the form of followingyou on Facebook, in the form of referring your services to others.
(09:02):
without trademarks, it would be really, really difficult.
And I tell people this to go to the supermarket.
And the reason I say that went to me.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm all ears.
Think about when you go to the supermarket and you go inside the soda or soft drink aisle,right?
(09:24):
It takes you a split second.
If you're looking for Coca -Cola to find the Coca -Cola, grab the Coca -Cola, put it inyour cart.
and get to steppin.
Now that's a supermarket in your own neighborhood.
Like say you go to another supermarket across the country, your analysis is not going tobe any different.
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The reason why is because of the brand identity tied to the business that provides softdrinks called Coca -Cola.
Because we've had up until this point through marketing, through experiences,
through our own interactions with the product, because we've had a trustworthy experience,we are not going to question whether this bottle that has this red and white label on it
(10:18):
is safe enough for us to drink.
Let me make that example even more concrete for the listeners, because my listeners know,because I talk about it all the time, that I'm dyslexic.
And reading is a challenge for me.
So if not for branding, when I go to the grocery store, I would not know what I was buyinghalf the time because I buy it based on the colors and the logos and the imagery on the
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package.
And when companies rebrand it, it messes up my head because I'm like, wait, I can't findthe thing that I'm looking for.
And also I have a lot of food allergies.
So a lot of times I buy the same thing over and over again because I don't want to have toread all the ingredients again to make sure that this is something that I can eat.
I just know that this brand has these ingredients and I can eat it.
So I just wanted to make that example even more.
(11:02):
Exactly.
And that is literally one of the reasons behind why trademark law exists.
It's to protect the consumer.
It's to allow you in a split second determination
to obtain information about a product or a service, right?
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It is literally the mark of a company or individual's trade.
Now in contrast, we have copyright.
So whereas trademarks can be the name of your business, the slogan attached to yourbusiness, think about the Nike swoosh symbol.
It can even be the, I mean, not slogan, the logo attached to you.
(11:45):
I've housed at the logo, Attach Your Business, the Nike swoosh Simple, the slogan, theJust Do It, right?
As well as even sometimes colors.
Think about brown associated with mailing services.
That's UPS.
Or think about blue associated with jewelry.
That's Tiffany Jewelry.
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Or think about fuchsia pink associated with mobile services.
That's T -Mobile.
So there are...
So all of those things can...
can help consumers identify in split seconds what is being sold, the quality of what'sbeing sold, and the likely experience that one is going to have with the thing that's
(12:26):
being sold.
Now you have copyright.
And copyright speaks to the content, the literary and artistic work in a fixed medium.
So copyright literally means the right to copy.
And it's come to represent an entire body of laws, essentially allowing the creator, theauthor, the person that makes the thing, entitlement to certain damages or entitlement to
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certain protections by virtue of their creativity.
Copyright was placed in the world or the universe, so to speak, to help creators thrive.
It creators...
always thought that the moment that they created something, somebody else was going toessentially be able to exploit it.
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And that person was not going to make any money.
The likelihood of them creating something new decreases, right?
Cause you're not about to create a very light.
Right.
I'm not creating something just so like you can have all the money.
That's just like not.
I don't know about your ministry.
(13:35):
Yeah, I was just saying that's not the way the world works.
That might be in futuristic movie.
So that's one of the policy reasons behind why copyright law exists.
It's to help the creator stay in a sense of optimism about what is likely to happen totheir work if somebody were to steal it or use it without their authorization.
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So copyright can protect
It can protect song.
It can protect this podcast episode that we're in, to the extent that you disseminate it.
To the extent that you disseminate it or to the extent that you distribute it or to theextent that you even take snippets of it and license it out to be shown on different
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platforms.
Right?
So copywriting is the content.
Trademarks are like really the face, like the brand name, the brand identity.
without seeing the content right away.
And then you have patents, are the inventions.
Patents are the technological.
Sometimes there are plant varieties that are patents.
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are out there, our entire kind of algorithms or ways that things play out that are entirepatents.
The Google search algorithm is a patent.
It's a patent, right?
And that allows
what's called new and non -obvious inventions.
New meaning it's never been seen before, non -obvious means it's not like an immediateprogression of anything that's in a particular field or industry.
(15:10):
Like it's not a faster horse and buggy, so to speak.
It's like a car versus a horse and buggy.
right.
Patent law allows you to protect those things.
And so those are the differences between trademarks, copyrights, and patents.
So if we were to...
you know, let's drive this analogy home further.
If we were to, you know, come over to my house and watch movies on Netflix or watch theOlympics, let's just say the Olympics because it's, it's, it's time.
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The TV on which the Olympics is playing to the extent that that TV has a brand on it.
And I'm actually going to pop quiz you.
The TV has a brand on it.
Maybe that TV.
the name of Sony or Toshiba or RCA.
What is that?
What type of intellectual property is that brand?
(16:03):
A trademark.
Yeah.
Why is that?
Well, see now you didn't say you're not getting extra credit.
Like I thought it was a pop quiz with multiple choices.
Extra credit.
Okay.
Let me see if I can answer it.
Let me see if I can.
Okay.
So it's a trademark because it's the brand name it is identifying because because therecould be multiple
(16:23):
different brands of television.
And I've decided that this is Toshiba and I like Toshiba better than Sony, for example.
So it is, it's those two companies can sell the exact same thing, but the branding istelling me that, I know what Toshiba is all about versus Sony.
got issues with Sony.
I don't really Sony listening.
know, if y'all want to sponsor me.
(16:44):
Okay.
I'm just kidding.
You had something said that just felt like a cake from the chandelier.
No, that's fine.
But no, so that's why that's the trademark is because it's the brand that it's on.
I can't, now for extra credit, I'm going say that the television, the actual box could be,there's probably a patent for a television, right?
(17:04):
So the action television, yes, there could be patents and patents can even go as granularas the buttons that control the quality.
of what's being shown.
It can control the volume.
It can control the on and off button.
I tell people, you're actually holding thousands of patents in your pocket on a day -to-day basis.
(17:27):
The reason why, because your cell phone has thousands, thousands of patents in it.
A patent can cover the swipe feature of your phone on an iPhone, for instance.
It can cover the double tap, the haptics.
What happens when you click on something or upload something?
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That's a packet.
So all of those different features can be patents that are created or invented byinventors and then they license it out and then some people may steal it and that's why we
have litigation.
then...
You're like, and that's where I come into play.
That's where I come in.
(18:11):
Now you come in before the litigation, you come in to protect it upfront.
And let me tell you, I don't know if you were done with your pop quiz, cause I was goingto tell you why I this copy.
There was a copyright, which is, which is the actual, what is it?
It's the television program that we're watching.
it's the Olympics that, you know, that programming that we're watching is the copyright.
(18:31):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And if you tried to bootleg it and sell copies of the Olympics, who's coming after you?
owns NBC these days?
you coming after me.
Yeah, like, I'm like, yeah, who owns NBC?
(18:53):
So watch out, watch out.
Do I get a gold star?
You get many gold stars, many, gold stars.
Well, let me tell you why I love this topic because my audience is comprised of twoprimary segments.
We've got entrepreneurs, business owners, aspiring entrepreneurs on one side, and we havetechies.
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We have women in tech and the tech industry on the other side.
And I know a lot that cross over.
I know a lot of techies who own businesses.
But the beauty of this is this covers all of them.
So if you're a techie and you just wrote this bomb algorithm and assuming that you don'twork for a company that made you sign your way your rights when you started working for
them, because that's real.
I know this, I have signed those contracts.
(19:37):
And basically what those contracts say are that anything you develop while you are workingfor that company belongs to them, even if you do it in your off hours.
Y 'all need to read those employment contracts before you sign them, especially if you thescope of employment and work-for-hire and copyright is a huge deal.
Right, exactly.
But my point is if you are building something on your own and you're not under a contractlike that, you need to know that what can be patented, what can be copyrighted, things
(20:02):
like that.
And then also on the entrepreneurship side, you need to know about your brand and you needto know about the things that you can patent or not necessarily patent if you're not
building something with things that you can copyright and trademark under your brand.
So this conversation applies to all of my audience and that's why I love it.
So, I wanted to say that.
(20:23):
And then also I think that for the, you know, pulling back the curtain and for the sake oftransparency, we should talk about how we know each other, which is our relationship.
So secret lovers.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
That's not it.
That's not why we know other.
that's so funny.
Okay.
(20:43):
It's not that.
But Ruky is my trademark attorney.
So I found Ruky through Terri Lomax, who is host, a co -host of the HerSpace podcast andshout that out.
and I worked together in corporate America and I knew she had a podcast and I listened toher podcast.
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And I, when I thought I was going to start a podcast as part of my brand, I reached out toher and I was, I was debating.
I was like, well,
really need a trademark?
I was like, I don't know.
And so I went back and forth and I called her up just to ask her why, cause I knew she hadtrademarked her podcast.
I asked her why she did it and I asked her about the process and I'm going tell you thisRuky she was like, I have a trademark attorney.
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She was, I'll tell you this.
was like, no, I just need to tell you that the trademark process almost broke me and Rukysaved me.
She was like, she was like, it, nearly broke me.
She was, cause I guess she tried to do it on her own first before she reached out to you.
we're her and Dom there, you her and her partner.
And, and anyway, she was like, I'm telling you, just don't, don't try to do it yourself.
(21:49):
She was like, please.
She was like, you don't have to call Ruky, but call somebody.
was like, you're going to need some help girl.
Let me tell you.
So that's how I found you.
like, so, and we can talk about, you know, our, and it's, we've had some challenges,haven't
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We have.
And let me just say, shout out to Dom and Terri, because I didn't know about how theprocess almost broke down before they met me.
that speaks even more to their resilience because as we discussed, even on their podcast,they had to do with brand pivot.
They had to make some changes.
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And this was particularly after they downloaded, after their podcast was downloaded,
over a million times.
So I, yeah.
So when we think about, you know, the importance of your intellectual property, this iswhat we're talking about.
How much is it going to cost you to have to backtrack and fix things if you are noteducated on taking those, crucial steps in the first place?
(23:12):
Yeah, no, it's very important.
you know, there's a, I recorded some bonus content that is my reaction to, you know, sortof what happened.
So it was not a smooth, for the audience, it was not a smooth journey.
I had this whole grand idea of what I thought my brand was gonna be and what I thought mybrand name was gonna be.
Ricky had to break it to me that, yeah, sorry, no, that's not going to work out.
(23:34):
Like you're going to have to, you're going to have to rethink that.
And again, in her phrasing and in her cadence, it's a brand pivot.
Like that's, that's the elegant thing.
To me, it was like, Nope, you can't do it.
Like that's all I heard was no.
But I was like, but wait, I've already created a website and I've already created a logo.
And I've already, I was like, what do you mean I can't use it?
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I was mad.
I was not, I was not in a good head space when we had that conversation.
No, it was, it was, you know, and it's not uncommon that these types of conversations aredifficult.
one of the things that I, just have committed myself to making sure I do is make space formy clients when these conversations have to be had.
(24:18):
if you recall, you know, without, you know, going too, too deep.
when I shared the information with you, it wasn't just a neutral sterile, this is a, thisis what's going to happen at different times.
I pause and I was just like, how are you feeling?
Yeah.
Like just, like, you know, legal aside, how are you?
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This is not, easy, especially considering that you just left corporate America.
This is a huge investment in yourself, you know,
you're in incubation of sorts, just like a baby just stating, and you have to be verycareful with what you feed the baby, what you tell the baby, all these things.
(25:05):
So I really think of it kind of like that in the sense of how can I make sure that I amvery transparent with the legal implications of moving forward?
Because this is still real.
I'm not about to sugar coat that.
Right.
But at the same time, still encourage you to keep going because of the purposes and plansthat are placed on the inside of you.
(25:32):
And that was very, very, very important for me.
And this is why we structured our services in a way that allows you time to just be inyour feelings.
If you recall, you know, while I was kind of breaking everything down, I was like, go getsome ice cream, leave it alone today.
Leave it alone today.
it's gonna be there tomorrow and just go get some ice cream.
(25:55):
You were very kind in the moment.
You did tell me to go get some ice cream and you also told me to give myself grace.
You were like, just take a minute to digest this and understand that there's no way thatyou could have known that you're not an intellectual property attorney.
So you did not know, because I thought I had done my due, that was part of the thing thatwas...
(26:15):
It was, was mad at myself because I thought I had done my due diligence.
thought that I had investigated the name that I wanted and things like that.
And, and what you found was so simple.
And I was like, how could I not have found that?
Like I was like, I don't understand.
didn't go to law school for three years.
Like girl, that's why you were like, I can't figure out this HTML that you probably like.
(26:37):
I'm just like, no, you're real.
It's real.
It's true.
three years.
Yeah.
The reason why we're able to, because, and I say that also, I say that tongue in cheek,but trademark law is not as straightforward as people think.
And there have been times where I have been able to successfully argue that my client'sbrand name, even though between us, it sounded exactly like another person's to some
(27:08):
extent, it was still different.
And I was able to get a registration.
Right.
For the client.
So it's important to understand, and this is where just knowing what you know and knowingwhat you don't know comes in.
It's important to understand that there are nuance, what you're investing in.
(27:30):
If you're talking to a good trademark attorney, what you're investing in is time for us toreally dig in deep into the nuances on your behalf in ways that you are not
taught to do, so to speak, right?
In ways that you don't pass, you should not have to know how to do.
(27:52):
That's why you're paying me, right?
So even when we engaged your process after the brand pivot, there was still a lot ofintentionality behind crafting your goods and services in a way that made it more likely
that you would have gotten registered.
Yeah.
There was a lot that went in.
It was, it's, it's so much more.
(28:13):
I'm just, this is for the listeners.
It's so much more than you think it is.
Like, I consider myself to be a, I think I'm pretty smart, know, and I was like, I gotthis.
Thank you.
But I was like, I got this.
Let me tell y 'all when it comes to trademark.
did not have this.
I didn't got this.
Okay.
But what I do have is Ruky.
So, and this is why, this is why.
(28:37):
Imperfect Genius trademark pending is on a good path right now.
It is.
It is.
So right before we started, I was so excited to just share the news with you that we are,you know, well on our way to giving you a formal registration.
And it's exciting.
(28:59):
And I get really excited because I know and I've witnessed the work that you've done tomake this happen.
Like I've seen you revamp your website yet again.
I've seen you work with other independent contractors to come up with your look.
Like I've seen you do the work.
(29:21):
So when you do the work, I make sure that I work my hardest to show up in a way that youdeserve.
And that's the work that we did together.
And that's why you're...
well on your path to being an IP, to be an, no, I'm like, wait, wait, wait.
I'm gonna give a law degree.
(29:43):
Can I apply for the Georgia State Bar?
No, it's okay.
Don't worry about that.
I really don't want to be an attorney.
don't, I all due respect to you.
I just, it's not something I want to do because it's too much reading Ruky.
I can't read all that stuff.
It is.
is.
That's a whole nother conversation.
(30:03):
That's a whole nother conversation.
Okay, here's how I had a thought in my head and it just flew out of my head.
What was I?
I was good.
I know what it was.
I was going to segue to the next question that I was going to ask you.
So as we discussed before, I don't, calling an intellectual property attorney is notnecessarily something that diverse founders are going to do right off the bat.
(30:25):
So while you have their attention, what are some tips that you can offer to your, toentrepreneurs, founders and aspiring entrepreneurs?
So I have legal tips and then I have non -legal tips because I'm celebrating my fifth yearfull time in entrepreneurship.
And it's been a journey.
It's been a journey.
One thing I'll say, and I'm still learning this as I grow, is that your community iseverything.
(30:51):
As an entrepreneur, it's very, very easy to become isolated and siloed as you arebuilding.
the backbone of what is ultimately your company.
And I have definitely battled in a very different way with depression and anxiety.
(31:14):
And I say different relative to how I engage in corporate.
In corporate, I could take a sick day and just rest, to some extent.
And entrepreneurship, that sick day is costing me, to some extent, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It's understanding that your value resides aside and apart from how successful yourcompany is.
(31:41):
And in fact, understanding your worth and your value is going to be important to the long-term sustainability of your business and your brand.
Because then you'll value rest and then you'll value charging your worth and then you'llvalue standing 10 toes down on how much you're charging.
Right?
So...
(32:02):
So those are the non -legal things.
The legal one is if you have a brand or business making impact, you have a business orbrand worth protecting.
And one of the things that I really work hard to do, and you've seen this, Rachel, so I'mgrateful that you've been able to witness this, is I really work hard to disseminate
(32:24):
education in a way that is relatable.
in a way that centers our unique experiences.
And I do a lot of presentations and workshops as part of our own social impact mission tomake sure that even if you never engage with me as your attorney, you're not out here
(32:47):
looking crazy in these internet and IP streets.
Like let's just, we don't have time for that.
Right.
Not on my watch, as Iyanla would say.
Not on my watch.
So, so that said, my encouragement to, in terms of legal to founders and entrepreneurs isif you have a business making impact, and it doesn't necessarily mean you have a business
(33:15):
making six figures a year, because impact can be calculated or measured in many differentways, including
you get a bunch of followers, you're featured in Forbes, you are about to do a tech talk.
These are really touchstone points.
and I haven't even said go even before that, but you know, better late than never.
(33:38):
These are really touchstone points to really start to tell yourself, this is somethingworth protecting.
This is something worth, trademarking.
This is something worth copywriting.
This is something we're patenting.
The people are listening.
and they're resonating.
Let me ask you this because I think that again, and I know this is something that Istruggle with myself.
(34:01):
I think that another reason that diverse founders are necessarily, it's not even that theydon't pick up the phone to call an IP attorney, but maybe they call too late or they think
about it too late because I know I heard you in one of your workshops talk about the, Ithink it was the Black Lives Matter hashtag.
that when they decided that they wanted to trademark that, it was too late because it wasalready part of the common parlance basically.
(34:27):
So it was like, was too common for them to trademark because they didn't trademark itupfront.
So the point that I'm getting at or the question that I'm getting at is, when you weresaying like maybe like you were about to do the Ted talk or whatever it is, it might
actually be too late at that point in time.
I think sometimes people are thinking, well, I don't have anything worth trademarking yet.
Like they're thinking, I gotta get X number of followers or I gotta get...
(34:48):
make this much money or I got to do so much before it's ready to be trademarked.
But at that point, it's possibly too late.
So I'm trying to, I'm getting at a question here, which is that if I just have an idea andI know that I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it for on behalf of listeners.
If I just have an idea, can I trademark that?
(35:09):
I would like what point between I have an idea and
Black Lives Matter is this massive thing that everybody knows and I can't trademarkanymore.
Like where is the point at which you need to start thinking about that trademark?
when you are uncomfortable that somebody else may have your brand name.
Got it.
Okay.
(35:30):
Okay.
When you, you know,
We have over 300 clients at this point, which probably means, you know, you know, reverseengineering, the conversion rate, all that stuff.
We've talked to well over a thousand founders, right?
And even more through, you know, different mediums and nothing in my experience has beenas convincing
(36:01):
to founders who have a million and one different priorities than me simply saying to them,are you okay with your brand name no longer being yours?
And the reason I say that is because going back to the idea, application spectrum thatyou've drawn out, that can even happen before your idea is concretized.
(36:29):
Now, let me be clear.
copyright, you actually need something that you're working with.
Like you actually need the thing to protect.
Copyright does not protect actual ideas.
However, and this is not to say trademark protects ideas, but it is to say you can filewhat's called an intent to use application before even implementing the idea that you
(36:53):
have.
And in fact, we did that with you, right?
We did that.
with Imperfect Genius.
We filed an intent to application because we wanted to make sure that we were the first tofile at the USPTO so that when you do implement your podcast services or your webinars or
(37:16):
workshops or t -shirts, what have you, we are not worried about somebody sending us acease and desist because we already have a record.
of your prior ownership.
Right.
And it's important to note for the listeners, you can file the intent to use, but at somepoint you have to prove that you are actually using it.
(37:37):
You can't just like sit on something.
And the reason I bring that up is because in other podcast conversations, we've talkedabout domain names and how people can just get a domain name and sit on it.
So I just want to point out, you cannot sit on a trademark.
You at some point have to do something with it.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I tell people that.
And trademarks are not like domains in at least two aspects.
(37:59):
One, you can't just sit on it.
You can't be a trademark squatter.
Like you could be a domain squatter.
it's entirely possible for two people to own pretty much the same domain.
And the only difference is a letter.
Right.
Right.
Whereas with trademarks, the standard is way different.
(38:20):
The standard is not simply...
whether these two marks are identical, but the standard is whether these two marks arelikely to cause confusion in the marketplace.
And that is a very, very broad, all -encompassing case law rich question that has certainimplications in ways that domain names may not.
(38:42):
And like I tell, like one example that I use is, what is it?
my gosh, I'm literally like, okay, so I'll go with another example because I blanked outon the first one.
But when we were filing for the trademark, for Firm for the Culture, we also had tograpple with the possibility that there may be a Para la Cultura, which is for the culture
(39:11):
in Spanish.
Even though they don't look identical, one is in Spanish, one is in English.
they do have a similarity of commercial impression.
Right.
Or they are likely to cause confusion in the marketplace.
trademark law assumes, interestingly enough, more so than I think many other parts of thelegal industry, trademark law assumes that the country is diverse.
(39:37):
Yeah.
And assumes that the country is a melting pot.
So it's going to assume that a good number of the consumers via US marketplace
are going to be from Spanish speaking countries or speak Spanish.
So if they stop and see a firm, you know, para la cultura or abogados para la cultura,lawyers for the culture, and they also see firm for the culture, it's not unreasonable for
(40:06):
them to believe that both of these brands are related, if not the same brand.
Right, right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
So that said, that's really the crucial difference.
Adding a letter is not going to save you.
Right, right, right.
To the trademark, like we had a confusion analysis.
(40:27):
Okay, no, that makes sense.
That's very helpful.
Well, I want to start to wrap this up, but first I want to ask what's next for Firm forthe Culture?
Really going beyond trademarks.
We've had a lot of success in the trademark space.
95 % win rate.
(40:48):
We've worked with amazing law firms and all the like, as well as clients.
But one of the things I am seeing over and over is that more than trademarks is needed fora lot of founders from diverse backgrounds to protect the ecosystem that they are
(41:13):
building.
And with that, we are really working on getting into licensing.
So now that you have your brand, how can you leverage your brand for money?
We're working into more contractual review.
So now that you have your brand and you now want to sell your business, what does a goodand adequate negotiated contract look like?
(41:40):
We're also working with copyright.
Okay.
You got your brand, now you have webinars and podcast episodes and books.
Let's make sure that content is protected.
Right.
Right.
So those are the spaces.
And then we're also working on certification.
Like you now have your content, you've built your business.
What does it look like to teach others who are now paying you for access to your content?
(42:04):
Right.
Okay.
Right.
So, so those are the fields that
I mean, we've had some success in it, but we haven't been like shining it from therooftops as much.
But these are the spaces that we see ourselves being in.
want to, my goal, you know this, Rachel, like my goal is really to become your reallysmart, friendly sidekick attorney as you are pursuing your path to purpose.
(42:29):
Like I was just me.
thought I was special.
No, just kidding.
It's called ideal client.
call marketing for a reason.
Yeah, you're good.
But no, okay.
No, I love it.
I love it.
Not I'm loving it.
(42:49):
I just love it.
Meaning like I'm not trying to call back.
Look at you.
at you.
Gold star.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So how can our listeners find you?
Do you have any upcoming speaking engagements or workshops that you're hosting?
I do actually.
I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit more booked and busy than I anticipated in the summer.
(43:13):
So let's just start with the basic social media platforms.
Firm For The Culture everywhere.
You can go to firmfortheculture .com if you want to book a call with us.
You can go to Instagram, Firm For The Culture, TikTok, Firm For The Culture, Twitter or X,whatever they're calling themselves these days, For The Culture, LinkedIn, Firm For The
Culture.
You can also look me up on LinkedIn.
(43:33):
I'm really, really, really active on LinkedIn.
It's my favorite platform.
And you can look me up at Rukayatu, R -U -K -A -Y -A -T -U, Tajani.
on LinkedIn and you can also go to sub stack, which is, FFTC .substack .com.
Let me not get to lying.
Yep.
is FFTC .substack .com.
(43:56):
where we share weekly, tips as well as invitations to LinkedIn audio sessions, which areso fun.
they're like, you know, the bougie version of clubhouse.
So those are all of the platforms.
And then in terms of speaking events, believe I'm speaking at, I think it's called ConnectSilicon Valley or CSS.
(44:23):
I'm gonna be lying again.
But I'm speaking at a huge Silicon Valley founders and tech event in the Bay Area.
Like I was looking at the speaker line and I was like, this is heavy hitters, like legitcelebrities.
I was like, okay.
So I'm speaking there.
if you follow me on the socials, you'll see which one I'm speaking at.
(44:44):
don't recall the name right now.
and yeah, I'm just continuing to put out more workshops.
So, you know, stay tuned for even more workshops that hopefully continue to speak to, yourstory, and the importance of protecting your IP.
Yeah.
And I have to say, you know, and you know this, I've attended many of your workshops.
They're very educational and I've attended them even when I think I know the content.
(45:07):
I'm like, let me just go see if she's going to drop some additional pearls of wisdom.
which speaking of listeners, you might want to download and save this episode because Rukydropped some serious pearls of wisdom for you.
You need to come back, go back and listen to this a couple of times and make sure that yougot your, your, your ducks in a row and think about what you want to do with regard to
protecting your, business and protecting your intellectual property.
(45:27):
I'm going to include links in the show notes for, I will look up the specific conferencethat Ruky's talking about and I will.
put links in the show notes.
If you want to receive a copy of our show notes, can subscribe at subscribe.imperfectgenius .com.
If you want to join a vibrant and supportive community of black and brown women who are onyour same path, we talked about community earlier in this podcast and how important it is
(45:49):
and how isolating it can be to be a solopreneur and entrepreneur on your own.
And also to my women in tech, it can be very isolating as well.
There's not a lot of black and brown women in tech.
So if you want to be part of a vibrant community that's going to support you every step ofthe way, go to community .imperfectgenius .com.
In fact, I am planning on talking to Ruky about hosting a workshop in the community,specifically for our community members.
(46:14):
you know, hey, you may want to head over there, check that out, because then you get someeven more knowledge dropped on you.
Plus I mentioned earlier that I've got a behind the scenes bonus podcast episode that I'mplanning to,
offer exclusively to my members only, community members only, where I talk about myreaction to my trademark journey when I found out that I couldn't use my original
(46:36):
trademark and just sort of all the work that went ahead of that.
And then the brand pivot, I just sort of give you all the gory details, all the behind thescenes details.
And again, that's going to be offered exclusively to community members.
Finally, you can always give us a call or text us at 404 -425 -9862 with your questionsand
You might hear an answer to your question on a future podcast episode.
(46:58):
You can follow us on social media @AskImperfectGenius.
And until next time, I am Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps Black women thrive by providing adviceon effectively navigating the business development journey and offers advice to all women
on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Today, I'm speaking with Rukayatu "Ruky" Tijani a trademark attorney and the founder,creator, and managing attorney of Firm for the Culture.
(00:36):
Ruky founded Firm for the Culture after years of serving as an intellectual propertyattorney in the Silicon Valley office of the top litigation firm in the country.
Firm for the Culture was born out of Ruky's passion for the law, social impact, and socialentrepreneurship.
Ruky is a Nigerian -American first generation professional from the projects of Brooklyn,New York, a graduate of UC Berkeley School of Law, and a member of the New York and
(01:00):
California State Bars.
She loves to cook, sing, and hike.
Ruky, welcome to the podcast.
Woot, woot!
So good to be here, Rachel.
How are you?
I'm good.
I got to thank you so much for being here.
I know personally how valuable your time is.
Aw, shucks.
So for you to take time out of your day to come here and talk to me on mic, I reallyappreciate it.
(01:24):
So thank you so much.
Of course.
Well, thank you for having me.
Like, you are an amazing person.
So it's a privilege to be on your platform.
wow.
Thank you.
That's I'm flattered.
I'm flattered.
Let's let's dive right in.
I want to start with your founder story.
I would, you know, having read your background and knowing your background, it seemsobvious to me, maybe not to everyone, but it seems obvious to me that you are a very
(01:48):
talented IP attorney, intellectual property attorney.
And based on your background, it makes sense that you would strike out on your own andwant to start your own firm.
But why firm for the culture?
Because I imagine that diverse founders are
probably going to be less likely to seek out an intellectual property attorney.
Am I wrong?
So that is a really, really good question.
(02:10):
And before I address the likelihood of diverse founders seeking out an IP attorney, I dowant to start with the why behind her culture.
Yes.
And a lot of it relates to, to your point, my own background and experiences, but not inthe way that many would anticipate.
I'm a first generation in everything from the projects of Brooklyn, New York, graduatedfrom Berkeley, all this great fancy stuff.
(02:36):
But even as I was navigating the upper echelons of success, I wanted to quit being anattorney.
It was difficult and not necessarily intellectually difficult, so to speak, but it washard to navigate spaces where you constantly found yourself as the only one who looked
like you.
And because of that,
(02:57):
Exactly.
And because of that, it just felt like our stories didn't matter.
It felt like our contributions to the culture didn't matter.
It felt like our creativity didn't matter.
So relating that to the question about why a lot of diverse founders may not necessarilyseek out an IP attorney, what I've realized in my experience is they're not encouraged to.
(03:20):
They're not told that
their amazing podcast name matters.
They're not told that a hashtag that goes viral, if they stick that on a shirt or if theyput that in front of a workshop title that can be federally protected, they're not told
that their drawings and their artistry can be protected.
They're not told these things.
(03:40):
So in realizing that these stories, much like my own, were not necessarily being centeredin the spaces I've navigated, I wanted to quit.
I wanted to quit.
Because otherwise the law just feels very inaccessible.
It feels very esoteric.
feels like this pie in the sky dream that I would never be able to accomplish because I'mnot white enough.
(04:07):
So frankly, right?
Right.
Right.
but even in the midst of wanting to quit, was divine intervention.
I'm a god, but also you'll hear him sprinkles around a couple of times in our conversationtoday.
And I had mentors and
I had counselors and I had just people in my circle really reminding me of why I decidedto become an attorney, which was really to give voice to those who may not look like the
(04:41):
status quo, so to speak, right?
In terms of navigating certain spaces and places.
So after
I decided to re recommit myself to the legal space.
I told myself it wasn't going to look the same way.
So before I struck out on my own, I joined the litigation firm in the Silicon Valley and Iloved it.
(05:07):
I loved engaging patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets.
I loved kind of being in the war room, so to speak, kind of getting ready for huge.
litigation cases on patents and the like.
But even then, the stories that mattered to me didn't seem like they mattered to thelawyers who are getting paid $750, $850, $1 ,000 an hour.
(05:33):
Right.
Right.
So because of that, I decided to start sharing for the culture, which really doubles as mylove letter to culture and to case law.
It allows me
to essentially affirm in myself as well as others, the intersection of culture and caselaw in a way that allows of founders like you, founders like the many amazing clients that
(06:03):
I've been able to serve.
It allows them to see themselves in the story of intellectual property.
So that, yeah.
I was, I think what you're doing is, very important.
I think the first step too in letting them know that their intellectual property mattersis by explaining to them what intellectual property is because I think part of the
(06:23):
problem, and this is just what I think, and if you disagree, then feel free to let meknow, but I think part of the reason that they don't necessarily reach out to an IP
attorney is because they don't understand the things that are.
intellectual property, like you mentioned hashtag when you were talking about it.
And you alluded to it when you were talking about how you enjoy working with patents andtrade mercy and things like that.
(06:44):
But let's start with giving the listeners an education on what is intellectual property.
Let's start there.
Absolutely.
And I think it's a really great point that you raise.
So you've seen me live.
So I'll start off with this.
What is that?
I'm loving it.
Exactly.
Or.
(07:08):
So is that NBC?
It is.
It's NBC, is probably, you're probably hearing that more so than ever before because we'rethe Olympics.
Right.
So believe it or not, those sounds are trademarks.
And what is a trademark?
A trademark is a form of intellectual property, a brain baby as I like to call it, amanifestation of the mind in a way that's tangible, concrete, and monetizable.
(07:35):
Trademarks, which are literally the names, colors, sometimes even sounds associated withsomebody's businesses, goods or services, trademarks allow two companies to sell the same
exact thing at the same exact time to the same exact person in the same exact geographicallocation, so long as their stories are distinct, so long as their brands are distinct.
(08:04):
Think about Samsung versus iPhone.
Think about Uber versus Lyft, right?
Think about Hershey's versus Dove chocolate, so to speak, right?
So these distinct stories are what matter when we're talking about trademarks.
Can a business or brand owner allow a consumer when navigating the marketplace toimmediately identify
(08:33):
who the business owner is, the quality of goods and services that they're selling, and thestories that are related to the goods and services in a way that allows them in split
seconds to pledge loyalty to that brand in the form of payment, in the form of followingyou on Facebook, in the form of referring your services to others.
(09:02):
without trademarks, it would be really, really difficult.
And I tell people this to go to the supermarket.
And the reason I say that went to me.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm all ears.
Think about when you go to the supermarket and you go inside the soda or soft drink aisle,right?
(09:24):
It takes you a split second.
If you're looking for Coca -Cola to find the Coca -Cola, grab the Coca -Cola, put it inyour cart.
and get to steppin.
Now that's a supermarket in your own neighborhood.
Like say you go to another supermarket across the country, your analysis is not going tobe any different.
(09:45):
The reason why is because of the brand identity tied to the business that provides softdrinks called Coca -Cola.
Because we've had up until this point through marketing, through experiences,
through our own interactions with the product, because we've had a trustworthy experience,we are not going to question whether this bottle that has this red and white label on it
(10:18):
is safe enough for us to drink.
Let me make that example even more concrete for the listeners, because my listeners know,because I talk about it all the time, that I'm dyslexic.
And reading is a challenge for me.
So if not for branding, when I go to the grocery store, I would not know what I was buyinghalf the time because I buy it based on the colors and the logos and the imagery on the
(10:41):
package.
And when companies rebrand it, it messes up my head because I'm like, wait, I can't findthe thing that I'm looking for.
And also I have a lot of food allergies.
So a lot of times I buy the same thing over and over again because I don't want to have toread all the ingredients again to make sure that this is something that I can eat.
I just know that this brand has these ingredients and I can eat it.
So I just wanted to make that example even more.
(11:02):
Exactly.
And that is literally one of the reasons behind why trademark law exists.
It's to protect the consumer.
It's to allow you in a split second determination
to obtain information about a product or a service, right?
(11:23):
It is literally the mark of a company or individual's trade.
Now in contrast, we have copyright.
So whereas trademarks can be the name of your business, the slogan attached to yourbusiness, think about the Nike swoosh symbol.
It can even be the, I mean, not slogan, the logo attached to you.
(11:45):
I've housed at the logo, Attach Your Business, the Nike swoosh Simple, the slogan, theJust Do It, right?
As well as even sometimes colors.
Think about brown associated with mailing services.
That's UPS.
Or think about blue associated with jewelry.
That's Tiffany Jewelry.
(12:05):
Or think about fuchsia pink associated with mobile services.
That's T -Mobile.
So there are...
So all of those things can...
can help consumers identify in split seconds what is being sold, the quality of what'sbeing sold, and the likely experience that one is going to have with the thing that's
(12:26):
being sold.
Now you have copyright.
And copyright speaks to the content, the literary and artistic work in a fixed medium.
So copyright literally means the right to copy.
And it's come to represent an entire body of laws, essentially allowing the creator, theauthor, the person that makes the thing, entitlement to certain damages or entitlement to
(12:54):
certain protections by virtue of their creativity.
Copyright was placed in the world or the universe, so to speak, to help creators thrive.
It creators...
always thought that the moment that they created something, somebody else was going toessentially be able to exploit it.
(13:15):
And that person was not going to make any money.
The likelihood of them creating something new decreases, right?
Cause you're not about to create a very light.
Right.
I'm not creating something just so like you can have all the money.
That's just like not.
I don't know about your ministry.
(13:35):
Yeah, I was just saying that's not the way the world works.
That might be in futuristic movie.
So that's one of the policy reasons behind why copyright law exists.
It's to help the creator stay in a sense of optimism about what is likely to happen totheir work if somebody were to steal it or use it without their authorization.
(13:59):
So copyright can protect
It can protect song.
It can protect this podcast episode that we're in, to the extent that you disseminate it.
To the extent that you disseminate it or to the extent that you distribute it or to theextent that you even take snippets of it and license it out to be shown on different
(14:22):
platforms.
Right?
So copywriting is the content.
Trademarks are like really the face, like the brand name, the brand identity.
without seeing the content right away.
And then you have patents, are the inventions.
Patents are the technological.
Sometimes there are plant varieties that are patents.
(14:42):
are out there, our entire kind of algorithms or ways that things play out that are entirepatents.
The Google search algorithm is a patent.
It's a patent, right?
And that allows
what's called new and non -obvious inventions.
New meaning it's never been seen before, non -obvious means it's not like an immediateprogression of anything that's in a particular field or industry.
(15:10):
Like it's not a faster horse and buggy, so to speak.
It's like a car versus a horse and buggy.
right.
Patent law allows you to protect those things.
And so those are the differences between trademarks, copyrights, and patents.
So if we were to...
you know, let's drive this analogy home further.
If we were to, you know, come over to my house and watch movies on Netflix or watch theOlympics, let's just say the Olympics because it's, it's, it's time.
(15:42):
The TV on which the Olympics is playing to the extent that that TV has a brand on it.
And I'm actually going to pop quiz you.
The TV has a brand on it.
Maybe that TV.
the name of Sony or Toshiba or RCA.
What is that?
What type of intellectual property is that brand?
(16:03):
A trademark.
Yeah.
Why is that?
Well, see now you didn't say you're not getting extra credit.
Like I thought it was a pop quiz with multiple choices.
Extra credit.
Okay.
Let me see if I can answer it.
Let me see if I can.
Okay.
So it's a trademark because it's the brand name it is identifying because because therecould be multiple
(16:23):
different brands of television.
And I've decided that this is Toshiba and I like Toshiba better than Sony, for example.
So it is, it's those two companies can sell the exact same thing, but the branding istelling me that, I know what Toshiba is all about versus Sony.
got issues with Sony.
I don't really Sony listening.
know, if y'all want to sponsor me.
(16:44):
Okay.
I'm just kidding.
You had something said that just felt like a cake from the chandelier.
No, that's fine.
But no, so that's why that's the trademark is because it's the brand that it's on.
I can't, now for extra credit, I'm going say that the television, the actual box could be,there's probably a patent for a television, right?
(17:04):
So the action television, yes, there could be patents and patents can even go as granularas the buttons that control the quality.
of what's being shown.
It can control the volume.
It can control the on and off button.
I tell people, you're actually holding thousands of patents in your pocket on a day -to-day basis.
(17:27):
The reason why, because your cell phone has thousands, thousands of patents in it.
A patent can cover the swipe feature of your phone on an iPhone, for instance.
It can cover the double tap, the haptics.
What happens when you click on something or upload something?
(17:49):
That's a packet.
So all of those different features can be patents that are created or invented byinventors and then they license it out and then some people may steal it and that's why we
have litigation.
then...
You're like, and that's where I come into play.
That's where I come in.
(18:11):
Now you come in before the litigation, you come in to protect it upfront.
And let me tell you, I don't know if you were done with your pop quiz, cause I was goingto tell you why I this copy.
There was a copyright, which is, which is the actual, what is it?
It's the television program that we're watching.
it's the Olympics that, you know, that programming that we're watching is the copyright.
(18:31):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And if you tried to bootleg it and sell copies of the Olympics, who's coming after you?
owns NBC these days?
you coming after me.
Yeah, like, I'm like, yeah, who owns NBC?
(18:53):
So watch out, watch out.
Do I get a gold star?
You get many gold stars, many, gold stars.
Well, let me tell you why I love this topic because my audience is comprised of twoprimary segments.
We've got entrepreneurs, business owners, aspiring entrepreneurs on one side, and we havetechies.
(19:15):
We have women in tech and the tech industry on the other side.
And I know a lot that cross over.
I know a lot of techies who own businesses.
But the beauty of this is this covers all of them.
So if you're a techie and you just wrote this bomb algorithm and assuming that you don'twork for a company that made you sign your way your rights when you started working for
them, because that's real.
I know this, I have signed those contracts.
(19:37):
And basically what those contracts say are that anything you develop while you are workingfor that company belongs to them, even if you do it in your off hours.
Y 'all need to read those employment contracts before you sign them, especially if you thescope of employment and work-for-hire and copyright is a huge deal.
Right, exactly.
But my point is if you are building something on your own and you're not under a contractlike that, you need to know that what can be patented, what can be copyrighted, things
(20:02):
like that.
And then also on the entrepreneurship side, you need to know about your brand and you needto know about the things that you can patent or not necessarily patent if you're not
building something with things that you can copyright and trademark under your brand.
So this conversation applies to all of my audience and that's why I love it.
So, I wanted to say that.
(20:23):
And then also I think that for the, you know, pulling back the curtain and for the sake oftransparency, we should talk about how we know each other, which is our relationship.
So secret lovers.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
That's not it.
That's not why we know other.
that's so funny.
Okay.
(20:43):
It's not that.
But Ruky is my trademark attorney.
So I found Ruky through Terri Lomax, who is host, a co -host of the HerSpace podcast andshout that out.
and I worked together in corporate America and I knew she had a podcast and I listened toher podcast.
(21:05):
And I, when I thought I was going to start a podcast as part of my brand, I reached out toher and I was, I was debating.
I was like, well,
really need a trademark?
I was like, I don't know.
And so I went back and forth and I called her up just to ask her why, cause I knew she hadtrademarked her podcast.
I asked her why she did it and I asked her about the process and I'm going tell you thisRuky she was like, I have a trademark attorney.
(21:27):
She was, I'll tell you this.
was like, no, I just need to tell you that the trademark process almost broke me and Rukysaved me.
She was like, she was like, it, nearly broke me.
She was, cause I guess she tried to do it on her own first before she reached out to you.
we're her and Dom there, you her and her partner.
And, and anyway, she was like, I'm telling you, just don't, don't try to do it yourself.
(21:49):
She was like, please.
She was like, you don't have to call Ruky, but call somebody.
was like, you're going to need some help girl.
Let me tell you.
So that's how I found you.
like, so, and we can talk about, you know, our, and it's, we've had some challenges,haven't
(22:10):
We have.
And let me just say, shout out to Dom and Terri, because I didn't know about how theprocess almost broke down before they met me.
that speaks even more to their resilience because as we discussed, even on their podcast,they had to do with brand pivot.
They had to make some changes.
(22:31):
And this was particularly after they downloaded, after their podcast was downloaded,
over a million times.
So I, yeah.
So when we think about, you know, the importance of your intellectual property, this iswhat we're talking about.
How much is it going to cost you to have to backtrack and fix things if you are noteducated on taking those, crucial steps in the first place?
(23:12):
Yeah, no, it's very important.
you know, there's a, I recorded some bonus content that is my reaction to, you know, sortof what happened.
So it was not a smooth, for the audience, it was not a smooth journey.
I had this whole grand idea of what I thought my brand was gonna be and what I thought mybrand name was gonna be.
Ricky had to break it to me that, yeah, sorry, no, that's not going to work out.
(23:34):
Like you're going to have to, you're going to have to rethink that.
And again, in her phrasing and in her cadence, it's a brand pivot.
Like that's, that's the elegant thing.
To me, it was like, Nope, you can't do it.
Like that's all I heard was no.
But I was like, but wait, I've already created a website and I've already created a logo.
And I've already, I was like, what do you mean I can't use it?
(23:57):
I was mad.
I was not, I was not in a good head space when we had that conversation.
No, it was, it was, you know, and it's not uncommon that these types of conversations aredifficult.
one of the things that I, just have committed myself to making sure I do is make space formy clients when these conversations have to be had.
(24:18):
if you recall, you know, without, you know, going too, too deep.
when I shared the information with you, it wasn't just a neutral sterile, this is a, thisis what's going to happen at different times.
I pause and I was just like, how are you feeling?
Yeah.
Like just, like, you know, legal aside, how are you?
(24:41):
This is not, easy, especially considering that you just left corporate America.
This is a huge investment in yourself, you know,
you're in incubation of sorts, just like a baby just stating, and you have to be verycareful with what you feed the baby, what you tell the baby, all these things.
(25:05):
So I really think of it kind of like that in the sense of how can I make sure that I amvery transparent with the legal implications of moving forward?
Because this is still real.
I'm not about to sugar coat that.
Right.
But at the same time, still encourage you to keep going because of the purposes and plansthat are placed on the inside of you.
(25:32):
And that was very, very, very important for me.
And this is why we structured our services in a way that allows you time to just be inyour feelings.
If you recall, you know, while I was kind of breaking everything down, I was like, go getsome ice cream, leave it alone today.
Leave it alone today.
it's gonna be there tomorrow and just go get some ice cream.
(25:55):
You were very kind in the moment.
You did tell me to go get some ice cream and you also told me to give myself grace.
You were like, just take a minute to digest this and understand that there's no way thatyou could have known that you're not an intellectual property attorney.
So you did not know, because I thought I had done my due, that was part of the thing thatwas...
(26:15):
It was, was mad at myself because I thought I had done my due diligence.
thought that I had investigated the name that I wanted and things like that.
And, and what you found was so simple.
And I was like, how could I not have found that?
Like I was like, I don't understand.
didn't go to law school for three years.
Like girl, that's why you were like, I can't figure out this HTML that you probably like.
(26:37):
I'm just like, no, you're real.
It's real.
It's true.
three years.
Yeah.
The reason why we're able to, because, and I say that also, I say that tongue in cheek,but trademark law is not as straightforward as people think.
And there have been times where I have been able to successfully argue that my client'sbrand name, even though between us, it sounded exactly like another person's to some
(27:08):
extent, it was still different.
And I was able to get a registration.
Right.
For the client.
So it's important to understand, and this is where just knowing what you know and knowingwhat you don't know comes in.
It's important to understand that there are nuance, what you're investing in.
(27:30):
If you're talking to a good trademark attorney, what you're investing in is time for us toreally dig in deep into the nuances on your behalf in ways that you are not
taught to do, so to speak, right?
In ways that you don't pass, you should not have to know how to do.
(27:52):
That's why you're paying me, right?
So even when we engaged your process after the brand pivot, there was still a lot ofintentionality behind crafting your goods and services in a way that made it more likely
that you would have gotten registered.
Yeah.
There was a lot that went in.
It was, it's, it's so much more.
(28:13):
I'm just, this is for the listeners.
It's so much more than you think it is.
Like, I consider myself to be a, I think I'm pretty smart, know, and I was like, I gotthis.
Thank you.
But I was like, I got this.
Let me tell y 'all when it comes to trademark.
did not have this.
I didn't got this.
Okay.
But what I do have is Ruky.
So, and this is why, this is why.
(28:37):
Imperfect Genius trademark pending is on a good path right now.
It is.
It is.
So right before we started, I was so excited to just share the news with you that we are,you know, well on our way to giving you a formal registration.
And it's exciting.
(28:59):
And I get really excited because I know and I've witnessed the work that you've done tomake this happen.
Like I've seen you revamp your website yet again.
I've seen you work with other independent contractors to come up with your look.
Like I've seen you do the work.
(29:21):
So when you do the work, I make sure that I work my hardest to show up in a way that youdeserve.
And that's the work that we did together.
And that's why you're...
well on your path to being an IP, to be an, no, I'm like, wait, wait, wait.
I'm gonna give a law degree.
(29:43):
Can I apply for the Georgia State Bar?
No, it's okay.
Don't worry about that.
I really don't want to be an attorney.
don't, I all due respect to you.
I just, it's not something I want to do because it's too much reading Ruky.
I can't read all that stuff.
It is.
is.
That's a whole nother conversation.
(30:03):
That's a whole nother conversation.
Okay, here's how I had a thought in my head and it just flew out of my head.
What was I?
I was good.
I know what it was.
I was going to segue to the next question that I was going to ask you.
So as we discussed before, I don't, calling an intellectual property attorney is notnecessarily something that diverse founders are going to do right off the bat.
(30:25):
So while you have their attention, what are some tips that you can offer to your, toentrepreneurs, founders and aspiring entrepreneurs?
So I have legal tips and then I have non -legal tips because I'm celebrating my fifth yearfull time in entrepreneurship.
And it's been a journey.
It's been a journey.
One thing I'll say, and I'm still learning this as I grow, is that your community iseverything.
(30:51):
As an entrepreneur, it's very, very easy to become isolated and siloed as you arebuilding.
the backbone of what is ultimately your company.
And I have definitely battled in a very different way with depression and anxiety.
(31:14):
And I say different relative to how I engage in corporate.
In corporate, I could take a sick day and just rest, to some extent.
And entrepreneurship, that sick day is costing me, to some extent, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It's understanding that your value resides aside and apart from how successful yourcompany is.
(31:41):
And in fact, understanding your worth and your value is going to be important to the long-term sustainability of your business and your brand.
Because then you'll value rest and then you'll value charging your worth and then you'llvalue standing 10 toes down on how much you're charging.
Right?
So...
(32:02):
So those are the non -legal things.
The legal one is if you have a brand or business making impact, you have a business orbrand worth protecting.
And one of the things that I really work hard to do, and you've seen this, Rachel, so I'mgrateful that you've been able to witness this, is I really work hard to disseminate
(32:24):
education in a way that is relatable.
in a way that centers our unique experiences.
And I do a lot of presentations and workshops as part of our own social impact mission tomake sure that even if you never engage with me as your attorney, you're not out here
(32:47):
looking crazy in these internet and IP streets.
Like let's just, we don't have time for that.
Right.
Not on my watch, as Iyanla would say.
Not on my watch.
So, so that said, my encouragement to, in terms of legal to founders and entrepreneurs isif you have a business making impact, and it doesn't necessarily mean you have a business
(33:15):
making six figures a year, because impact can be calculated or measured in many differentways, including
you get a bunch of followers, you're featured in Forbes, you are about to do a tech talk.
These are really touchstone points.
and I haven't even said go even before that, but you know, better late than never.
(33:38):
These are really touchstone points to really start to tell yourself, this is somethingworth protecting.
This is something worth, trademarking.
This is something worth copywriting.
This is something we're patenting.
The people are listening.
and they're resonating.
Let me ask you this because I think that again, and I know this is something that Istruggle with myself.
(34:01):
I think that another reason that diverse founders are necessarily, it's not even that theydon't pick up the phone to call an IP attorney, but maybe they call too late or they think
about it too late because I know I heard you in one of your workshops talk about the, Ithink it was the Black Lives Matter hashtag.
that when they decided that they wanted to trademark that, it was too late because it wasalready part of the common parlance basically.
(34:27):
So it was like, was too common for them to trademark because they didn't trademark itupfront.
So the point that I'm getting at or the question that I'm getting at is, when you weresaying like maybe like you were about to do the Ted talk or whatever it is, it might
actually be too late at that point in time.
I think sometimes people are thinking, well, I don't have anything worth trademarking yet.
Like they're thinking, I gotta get X number of followers or I gotta get...
(34:48):
make this much money or I got to do so much before it's ready to be trademarked.
But at that point, it's possibly too late.
So I'm trying to, I'm getting at a question here, which is that if I just have an idea andI know that I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it for on behalf of listeners.
If I just have an idea, can I trademark that?
(35:09):
I would like what point between I have an idea and
Black Lives Matter is this massive thing that everybody knows and I can't trademarkanymore.
Like where is the point at which you need to start thinking about that trademark?
when you are uncomfortable that somebody else may have your brand name.
Got it.
Okay.
(35:30):
Okay.
When you, you know,
We have over 300 clients at this point, which probably means, you know, you know, reverseengineering, the conversion rate, all that stuff.
We've talked to well over a thousand founders, right?
And even more through, you know, different mediums and nothing in my experience has beenas convincing
(36:01):
to founders who have a million and one different priorities than me simply saying to them,are you okay with your brand name no longer being yours?
And the reason I say that is because going back to the idea, application spectrum thatyou've drawn out, that can even happen before your idea is concretized.
(36:29):
Now, let me be clear.
copyright, you actually need something that you're working with.
Like you actually need the thing to protect.
Copyright does not protect actual ideas.
However, and this is not to say trademark protects ideas, but it is to say you can filewhat's called an intent to use application before even implementing the idea that you
(36:53):
have.
And in fact, we did that with you, right?
We did that.
with Imperfect Genius.
We filed an intent to application because we wanted to make sure that we were the first tofile at the USPTO so that when you do implement your podcast services or your webinars or
(37:16):
workshops or t -shirts, what have you, we are not worried about somebody sending us acease and desist because we already have a record.
of your prior ownership.
Right.
And it's important to note for the listeners, you can file the intent to use, but at somepoint you have to prove that you are actually using it.
(37:37):
You can't just like sit on something.
And the reason I bring that up is because in other podcast conversations, we've talkedabout domain names and how people can just get a domain name and sit on it.
So I just want to point out, you cannot sit on a trademark.
You at some point have to do something with it.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I tell people that.
And trademarks are not like domains in at least two aspects.
(37:59):
One, you can't just sit on it.
You can't be a trademark squatter.
Like you could be a domain squatter.
it's entirely possible for two people to own pretty much the same domain.
And the only difference is a letter.
Right.
Right.
Whereas with trademarks, the standard is way different.
(38:20):
The standard is not simply...
whether these two marks are identical, but the standard is whether these two marks arelikely to cause confusion in the marketplace.
And that is a very, very broad, all -encompassing case law rich question that has certainimplications in ways that domain names may not.
(38:42):
And like I tell, like one example that I use is, what is it?
my gosh, I'm literally like, okay, so I'll go with another example because I blanked outon the first one.
But when we were filing for the trademark, for Firm for the Culture, we also had tograpple with the possibility that there may be a Para la Cultura, which is for the culture
(39:11):
in Spanish.
Even though they don't look identical, one is in Spanish, one is in English.
they do have a similarity of commercial impression.
Right.
Or they are likely to cause confusion in the marketplace.
trademark law assumes, interestingly enough, more so than I think many other parts of thelegal industry, trademark law assumes that the country is diverse.
(39:37):
Yeah.
And assumes that the country is a melting pot.
So it's going to assume that a good number of the consumers via US marketplace
are going to be from Spanish speaking countries or speak Spanish.
So if they stop and see a firm, you know, para la cultura or abogados para la cultura,lawyers for the culture, and they also see firm for the culture, it's not unreasonable for
(40:06):
them to believe that both of these brands are related, if not the same brand.
Right, right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
So that said, that's really the crucial difference.
Adding a letter is not going to save you.
Right, right, right.
To the trademark, like we had a confusion analysis.
(40:27):
Okay, no, that makes sense.
That's very helpful.
Well, I want to start to wrap this up, but first I want to ask what's next for Firm forthe Culture?
Really going beyond trademarks.
We've had a lot of success in the trademark space.
95 % win rate.
(40:48):
We've worked with amazing law firms and all the like, as well as clients.
But one of the things I am seeing over and over is that more than trademarks is needed fora lot of founders from diverse backgrounds to protect the ecosystem that they are
(41:13):
building.
And with that, we are really working on getting into licensing.
So now that you have your brand, how can you leverage your brand for money?
We're working into more contractual review.
So now that you have your brand and you now want to sell your business, what does a goodand adequate negotiated contract look like?
(41:40):
We're also working with copyright.
Okay.
You got your brand, now you have webinars and podcast episodes and books.
Let's make sure that content is protected.
Right.
Right.
So those are the spaces.
And then we're also working on certification.
Like you now have your content, you've built your business.
What does it look like to teach others who are now paying you for access to your content?
(42:04):
Right.
Okay.
Right.
So, so those are the fields that
I mean, we've had some success in it, but we haven't been like shining it from therooftops as much.
But these are the spaces that we see ourselves being in.
want to, my goal, you know this, Rachel, like my goal is really to become your reallysmart, friendly sidekick attorney as you are pursuing your path to purpose.
(42:29):
Like I was just me.
thought I was special.
No, just kidding.
It's called ideal client.
call marketing for a reason.
Yeah, you're good.
But no, okay.
No, I love it.
I love it.
Not I'm loving it.
(42:49):
I just love it.
Meaning like I'm not trying to call back.
Look at you.
at you.
Gold star.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So how can our listeners find you?
Do you have any upcoming speaking engagements or workshops that you're hosting?
I do actually.
I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit more booked and busy than I anticipated in the summer.
(43:13):
So let's just start with the basic social media platforms.
Firm For The Culture everywhere.
You can go to firmfortheculture .com if you want to book a call with us.
You can go to Instagram, Firm For The Culture, TikTok, Firm For The Culture, Twitter or X,whatever they're calling themselves these days, For The Culture, LinkedIn, Firm For The
Culture.
You can also look me up on LinkedIn.
(43:33):
I'm really, really, really active on LinkedIn.
It's my favorite platform.
And you can look me up at Rukayatu, R -U -K -A -Y -A -T -U, Tajani.
on LinkedIn and you can also go to sub stack, which is, FFTC .substack .com.
Let me not get to lying.
Yep.
is FFTC .substack .com.
(43:56):
where we share weekly, tips as well as invitations to LinkedIn audio sessions, which areso fun.
they're like, you know, the bougie version of clubhouse.
So those are all of the platforms.
And then in terms of speaking events, believe I'm speaking at, I think it's called ConnectSilicon Valley or CSS.
(44:23):
I'm gonna be lying again.
But I'm speaking at a huge Silicon Valley founders and tech event in the Bay Area.
Like I was looking at the speaker line and I was like, this is heavy hitters, like legitcelebrities.
I was like, okay.
So I'm speaking there.
if you follow me on the socials, you'll see which one I'm speaking at.
(44:44):
don't recall the name right now.
and yeah, I'm just continuing to put out more workshops.
So, you know, stay tuned for even more workshops that hopefully continue to speak to, yourstory, and the importance of protecting your IP.
Yeah.
And I have to say, you know, and you know this, I've attended many of your workshops.
They're very educational and I've attended them even when I think I know the content.
(45:07):
I'm like, let me just go see if she's going to drop some additional pearls of wisdom.
which speaking of listeners, you might want to download and save this episode because Rukydropped some serious pearls of wisdom for you.
You need to come back, go back and listen to this a couple of times and make sure that yougot your, your, your ducks in a row and think about what you want to do with regard to
protecting your, business and protecting your intellectual property.
(45:27):
I'm going to include links in the show notes for, I will look up the specific conferencethat Ruky's talking about and I will.
put links in the show notes.
If you want to receive a copy of our show notes, can subscribe at subscribe.imperfectgenius .com.
If you want to join a vibrant and supportive community of black and brown women who are onyour same path, we talked about community earlier in this podcast and how important it is
(45:49):
and how isolating it can be to be a solopreneur and entrepreneur on your own.
And also to my women in tech, it can be very isolating as well.
There's not a lot of black and brown women in tech.
So if you want to be part of a vibrant community that's going to support you every step ofthe way, go to community .imperfectgenius .com.
In fact, I am planning on talking to Ruky about hosting a workshop in the community,specifically for our community members.
(46:14):
you know, hey, you may want to head over there, check that out, because then you get someeven more knowledge dropped on you.
Plus I mentioned earlier that I've got a behind the scenes bonus podcast episode that I'mplanning to,
offer exclusively to my members only, community members only, where I talk about myreaction to my trademark journey when I found out that I couldn't use my original
(46:36):
trademark and just sort of all the work that went ahead of that.
And then the brand pivot, I just sort of give you all the gory details, all the behind thescenes details.
And again, that's going to be offered exclusively to community members.
Finally, you can always give us a call or text us at 404 -425 -9862 with your questionsand
You might hear an answer to your question on a future podcast episode.
(46:58):
You can follow us on social media @AskImperfectGenius.
And until next time, I am Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
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