January 16, 2025 • 42 mins
This January, we are revisiting the episodes that define the core of the Imperfect Genius mission.
In the second episode of the Imperfect Genius podcast, host Rachel Foster is joined by Gwen Hurd, Sadé C. Johnson, and Zyria Lott. In this inspiring episode, they discuss the importance of mentoring and networking for Black women in the tech industry. Their personal experiences and insights emphasize the power of having a supportive community.
We want you to join in the discussion! Call or text (404) 425-9862 with your questions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everyone.
I am re-releasing this episode, episode two of the Imperfect Genius podcast because thetopic, Mentoring Black Women in Tech, is quintessential to the mission at Imperfect
Genius, which is mentoring women of color in the tech industry.
In it, I talk to three other women of color in the tech industry, some that I havementored and one that has mentored me.
(00:24):
Take a listen and I hope you enjoy.
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast helping black women thrive by providing technicaladvice on effectively navigating the business development journey and advice on building
(00:46):
successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
this is a very special episode for me today, guys.
With me today are three beautiful black women who hold a very special place in my heart.
And they're honestly making me just a little bit homesick for the community of Black womenthat I had to say goodbye to when I left Corporate America.
(01:10):
Joining me today are Gwen Hurd, Sadé C.
Johnson, and Zyria Lott.
Ladies, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for agreeing to do this.
I miss you guys so much, by the way.
Like, it's just so great to see your beautiful faces.
I feel like...
(01:30):
Oh, a little bit of, it's like a micro BGM, which I have to explain to our listeners.
used to have, we used to all work together and we used to have this community, an ERG,Employed Resource Group, called Black Girl Magic.
And we used to have these lunch and learns all the time.
And we used to get to see all these beautiful black women and talk about our, know, talkabout what's going on at work or just talk about what's going on in our lives.
(01:52):
It was just amazing.
So when I say I'm a little bit homesick by seeing these, these faces, I am just a littlebit homesick, but
I think let's start with a little bit about, so this particular episode, we're talkingabout mentoring and networking.
So speaking of the community that we used to have that, well, you guys still have it,unfortunately, I don't have it anymore, but you all still have it.
(02:15):
But we're talking about mentoring and networking for black women in tech and what doesthat mean?
And I think I wanna start in the middle of the story with sort of how we all met.
And the reason I say the middle is because,
We'll go back and we'll talk about how you all got into tech and obviously the future isunwritten.
So we're in the middle.
Let's start with you, Gwen.
my goodness.
(02:35):
I will never forget.
I think it was my second week on the job and I got a Slack message from you and you werelike, I'm having office hours.
You need to come.
I need to tell you like everything you need to know about being a solutions consultant.
Because we, for the listeners, had, Gwen and I had the same job and I had just started andshe'd been working at the company.
for how many years had you been there?
(02:57):
This was in 2020, I think I had been there two and a half, maybe almost three years whenyou joined.
Okay.
Actually, least two and a half for sure.
Okay.
So yeah, so Gwen had been doing the job that I had just started doing for two and a half,three years.
It's time that I joined.
And my second week, she reaches out to me and she's like, I'm having office hours.
(03:18):
You need to come.
And I'm like,
who is this person?
But I'm like, okay, you know, I'm like, sure, okay, I'll do that.
And then I ended up being the only one who showed up for your office hours and you talkedto me for an hour.
told me everything I needed to know about my job in an hour.
And then you said, you know what, I'm going to invite you to all my customer demos.
Cause we were doing technical sales.
(03:38):
And you said, I'm going to invite you out of my customer demos.
You don't have to worry about talking to the clients.
I'll just tell them that you're just observing.
You know, you don't have to be nervous.
And you invited me to all that you like sent me like a month's worth of invites.
And then I just watched you be awesome.
I basically just joined your customer calls and watched you be awesome.
It was amazing.
It was absolutely amazing.
Talk to me about like, I know that's a thing that you do all the time, Gwen, which is toreach out and to do mentoring for people.
(04:05):
Like just tell me a little bit about your process.
like, why did you, why did you pick me and say, Hey, let me, let me talk to you about howto do your job.
Well,
You know, I've been in the business for such a long time that I was so excited when Ifirst found out, Rachel, that you had joined the company because I don't typically see
(04:25):
myself in it.
I don't see myself in this position.
And it's, you know, so I was so excited and I was like, my gosh, I really want to talk toher and make sure that she gets everything that she should because this is a, this is
really a buddy company when it comes to.
you know, working in sales and technical people.
So I wanted to play that forward, you know, to make sure that you were successful rightoff the bat and that you knew where to go to get whatever help you needed if you needed
(04:55):
some help.
And so that was my goal because I was just really happy and excited.
It's this being in tech, you know, it's a huge, it's a huge accomplishment.
It's also
It's just like any job, it can have its stress levels and stuff.
But being able to see more of us in this space is something that I strive to do becauseI've been in the business for such a long time.
(05:23):
And for years, I did not ever see myself.
Yeah, I know.
I didn't see myself as a woman, period.
And I definitely did not see a woman of color.
Yeah, no, I 100%.
I know.
You and I have been doing this for a really long time.
You've been doing it a little bit longer than me, I think, but for decades.
(05:44):
I you were the first Black female mentor.
First female?
No.
Yeah, I want to say my first female mentor, but at the same time that you were my mentor,Stacey Simmons was my onboarding buddy.
So I got both of you at the same time.
So you were my first Black female mentor, though.
In three decades in the tech industry, you were the first.
(06:04):
And so to your point, for the first 10 years,
that I was in the field, didn't, I was the only woman, I was the only black person, I wasdefinitely the only black woman.
So I know exactly what you mean.
But that's why when I started, it was just so important to me to just have that communityof black girl magic and having other black women in tech, whether they were engineers or
(06:27):
not, just being able to have that community was really important to me.
And then, you we had the, luckily you were in the same, in the Atlanta area, same.
with me and I was able to meet you in person for some of the in-person meetups in theoffice.
And so that was great.
And then she even made me custom cookies.
by the way, Gwen, I'm going to, know, side note, I want to definitely have you back on thepodcast to talk about Ms.
(06:48):
Gwen's cookie factory at a later date, because we want to talk about entrepreneurship.
But let's move on.
want to talk.
I'm going to go to Zyria next, because she's the person that I met next at the company.
So Zyria.
started as a summer intern and I was assigned as her mentor.
And it was so funny because I was like, well, yeah, I'm the only other black woman in thedepartment.
So of course they're going to sign me as her mentor.
(07:09):
But I didn't mind because I'm like, I wanted to shepherd you.
I wanted to protect you.
I wanted to be like the mama bear and keep you from all of the nastiness that can happenin tech.
So Zyria, tell me about your experience as a summer intern and then how we ended up withour ongoing mentorship.
So yeah, my experience as a summer intern was
(07:29):
It really well.
I got to, well really, got to meet Rachel.
I met Rachel during my last interview, actually, for the company.
And honestly, I was so scared of her.
I was like, oh my gosh.
I don't know.
just, I don't even know what vibe I got, but I was just like, Why were you scared of me?
(07:54):
Well, I don't know.
I think like on the panel,
like you were just so like straight faced and you were just like, know, really justreally, I think you asked me a question and you were like, okay, like you know you, like
you know you, like that's you.
But you know, then, you know, it was so funny.
(08:16):
And then I got the internship and then I met you, was still a little bit scared, but thenI got to actually meet you and I saw, you know, like how much of a caring person you were.
and how passionate you were, like you said, making sure that I was good at the company andthat nobody was running over me or anything.
But yeah, you were my first black woman mentor, because this was my first experience beingin tech anyway with the summer internship.
(08:45):
So yeah, just to be able to have that mentorship and then hear your experience of workingin tech, it was very beneficial for me.
because I was still like a junior in college and I didn't even know what I wanted to dowith my life.
So, you know, just to have like that mentorship and that guidance was really beneficial.
Yeah, it was really beneficial.
Well, that's cool.
(09:06):
And then you reached out to me after you went back to school, because you had one moreyear of school, and you reached out and said, hey, would you mind still being my mentor?
And I was like, sure, no problem.
And so it's just for the audience to let them know.
So for her final year of college, I continued to be her mentor.
And then she came back, she got a full-time offer from the same company and she came backand then we continued.
(09:28):
And so that's a little bit about our story.
And now let's move on to Ms.
Sadé C.
Johnson, which by the way, you always have to say her full name.
It's Sadé C.
Johnson.
It's never just Sadé.
By the way, why is that Sadé?
Because I feel like there are many Shades, there are many Sadé Johnsons, but...
(09:49):
the C as the distinguishing factor.
So there is only one.
There's only one Sadé C.
Johnson.
So miss Sadé C.
Johnson.
can't, I honestly, I don't remember.
I remember sort of like telling you that I was going to be your mentor.
Like I didn't ask you.
didn't, you didn't ask me.
I just remember, but I don't remember when we officially met.
(10:12):
just remember I had changed roles in the company.
I changed roles in the company a couple of different times and I changed roles and I juststarted in my role as a developer relations advocate.
And I think it was like a month, not even a month after I started, you started.
And I was like, okay, I gotta take care of her.
was like, even though I was new to the role and didn't know anything about being adeveloper relations advocate, I had been at the company for I think two and a half years
(10:40):
at that point in time.
and you were new to the company and I was like, I gotta take care of her.
Like, what's your memory of how we met?
Like, honestly don't even remember the details.
Oh man, so I joined the company in March of 2023 and I looked at the, had met with mymanager and he pretty much told me everybody that I should meet and you were one of those
(11:01):
people.
And I saw that you were a black woman and I was like, oh snap.
So then I went to LinkedIn and I checked your credentials and I'm like, wow.
This is pretty intimidating.
Like, you really know her stuff.
And then I'm like, OK.
And I was like, I was excited to work with you because I had never worked professionallywith another Black woman.
So I'm like, oh, this should be cool.
Like, I knew other Black women that worked in technology, but I never knew, like, thedepths of their actual work.
(11:28):
So working with you and learning from you because you were a senior and I was just gettinginto the space, I was like, OK, this is cool.
But on the first day, you had added me to the Black Girl.
Magic group chat you added me to like group chat all of them really and then youintroduced yourself to me You told me about all of the things that you're involved in.
(11:49):
I'm like, wow, she really is so important How is she doing a million things and doing thisrole, which I hear is pretty involved?
So that's pretty much my memory of you.
And then when we finally met and had a conversation I was really impressed and I'm justlike, okay.
Okay, this is cool and I started working with you like we started doing events or
I would attend meetings where you would sit there and I'm like, wow, like, this is who Iwant to like help nurture me and grow me into my role because although your credentials
(12:18):
seemed intimidating, like you were pretty sharp, but like you were very approachable andyou have very quality work and you have a very good speaking voice.
And those are all attributes that I wanted to adapt as well.
So I'm like, yeah, Rachel is that person.
Oh, thank you.
Between you and Zari, you guys got me feeling like I need to revamp my persona.
(12:42):
Everybody's afraid of me.
Like, what's up with that?
Like, I'm intimidating.
Wow.
I'm going to have to like, have to work on my...
Because you're so amazing.
Oh, sorry.
Oh, stop.
Yeah, no, really.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
For the audience, I paid them to say that, y'all.
So, you know, thank you.
I'll slip you all the money afterwards.
(13:04):
Okay, so now it's interesting because I like I said earlier that Gwen was my first blackfemale mentor and both of you just said the same of me, which is interesting because I
like I say I spent decades in tech before finding you Gwen my first female black femalementor.
I just want to talk a little bit more about I know, know, Zyria, you're at the beginningof your journey.
(13:26):
Sadé, you're in the middle and Gwen, I'm not going to say you're at the end of yourjourney.
I just say you've been on the journey longer.
I just want to know a little bit more about, since we were all each other's first, youknow, black female mentors, what was it like for you in tech before that?
I think I want to start with Zyria.
Let's go Zyria Sade and then Gwen.
So we'll start with you, Zyria, because you were, you know, you were coming out of collegeand then you went into the tech field.
(13:50):
So what was your experience as a black woman in tech?
So yeah, in college, I didn't have a tech background.
I got my bachelor's in English and then my minor was in technical writing.
But even within the technical writing field, like with the technical writing, likeinternships or jobs I had before I met you at the previous company that you were at, there
(14:14):
still weren't black women that I could talk to or reach out to or anything like that.
They were all non-color people with the attitudes and the assumptions that.
you don't know what you're doing maybe because you know because I'm a black woman or Idon't deserve to be here or I possibly got in here because I'm like some DEI thing.
(14:39):
So it was just like a bunch of that and not really like any mentorship like I had to do alot of things on my own or you know figure out information on my own.
But once you know I came to the company met you and you became my mentor I guess I
I finally felt like I had a safe space or someone who could advocate for me.
(15:03):
Because even the team that I joined during my internship, you were the only black womanand I was the only black intern on the team too.
Yeah, I was the only black intern.
So it's not like I had that safe space to communicate to anybody if I was feeling somekind of way or if I had a question.
(15:26):
Oh, did that just happen?
You know, I would come to you and like confirm it and you you would give me advice.
So I think you just made like you made well, one of the many things you did was like makeit a little bit more bearable.
Like experiencing anything because I knew that I had someone to talk to, someone likecheering me on, you know, someone who can, you know, like tell me to keep going.
(15:52):
So, yeah, that's nice.
That's nice.
Now, Sadé, you had been in tech for a while before you and I met.
So again, what was your experience in tech as a Black woman?
It was pretty similar to Zyria's.
I worked with a lot of people of color, but they weren't Black.
And they weren't Black women, you know?
So that was an experience.
(16:14):
They were pretty cutthroat, I would say.
And it just made me want to work.
harder or it made me like want to go into silos and try to do extra work so I could try toget up to speed.
But and this is when I was working at finance, which is naturally a cutthroat industry.
And then I moved to a tech company, AWS.
(16:35):
That was my favorite job.
But again, there were no black women on my team.
I was that only one, which was fine.
I didn't really think much of it.
I'm just like, OK, I got to be great so they can see the representation, know, see us in agood light.
But then when I came to the company where I met you, I'm like, snap, like she really isrepresenting.
Like I remember getting on a call and you were talking about a game that you had for orcreated, Dangerous Day.
(17:03):
not sure if I'm.
say that.
Yeah, no, that's fine.
It's fine.
My GitHub.
it's fine.
So I heard you talking about the game.
You was like, I did this already already did this.
I did this connection.
I did this.
I'm like, my goodness, she's actually using so much technical jargon.
It makes sense to me.
She's approachable.
I could talk to her about this.
I could read it because you have excellent documentation fields.
(17:24):
They'll very hectic and fast paced, but having to work with you made the process a littlebit easier because when I needed to speak at events or
present something, I could always go to you knowing that that was your expertise and justget real feedback.
Like you wouldn't just say, you did good.
You would be like, no, why'd do that?
Why'd do it?
Like I'm not really appreciated the honesty because I'm like, that's really like, I had tohumble myself, but that's the only way that I knew that I would grow.
(17:49):
Like I liked the fact that you gave me feedback and tried to help me versus in thebeginning of my career where they just gave feedback and I had to try to figure it out on
my own, you know?
So you created that safe space for me.
I tell ya, y'all make me seem so mean, but that's okay.
No, I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
(18:22):
Okay, so Gwen, tell me about your experience as a black woman.
You talked a little bit about it in the beginning, but just tell us a little bit moreabout your journey and your experience as a black woman in tech.
Okay, so I've been in the business for such a long time.
I didn't have a mentor.
I did not have, there was no mentoring of any kind during the time period in which I wasthinking about getting into tech and
(18:51):
Ultimately, when I went to college and stuff, I did not have a mentor.
The one thing I can say that I did have or did do was in high school, I was a BellLaboratory scholarship student.
And that helped shape a lot of things for me because even when I was in college, three ofthe people that I had worked with there, these people were at PhDs and mathematics and
(19:16):
stuff, they communicated with me.
you know, see how I was doing and then that type of thing.
But as far as, and they of course were not people of color.
And in fact, I was the only scholarship student of color that was there for that, forthose couple of summers, which was like summer of 1975 and summer of 1976.
(19:41):
All right, so going forward when I started working,
I started off as a CIS systems programmer, so I was not customer facing yet.
Well, for my first three years, I was the only woman I was to see of white guys, and thereweren't even any white women.
(20:01):
just, it just wasn't.
And it wasn't until I got in three years in, and then when I came to, I moved, was movedto Atlanta by a software company called Pan-Sophic Systems.
And this is when I started.
the customer facing journey, there were women.
were white women, but there were women.
(20:22):
There was one woman who did what I did, the other women there that were administrators.
Yeah, that's typical.
then there were guys.
There was one man of color.
But the rest of them are white guys.
And that's where it started.
It wasn't until I got to Oracle.
(20:44):
in 2012 that I saw a whole lot of women of color in the lobby, in the building I was in inRuston, Virginia.
I'm like, I was really excited.
I was like, there's a bunch of women.
And so there were people there who did not understand my excitement with that.
And then there were people there who did understand it.
(21:06):
And so I was like, you don't understand what it's like to be a woman of color.
working in this industry for as long as I've been in the industry at that time.
And now I finally see myself.
I see more of me here.
I said, it's a wonderful feeling to be able to do that.
And that's 2012.
(21:27):
I had already been in the business almost 30 years by that time.
And so I was at Oracle for almost six years.
And so yes, there were women of color.
were.
There were women of color, and there was a couple in power.
There was a couple directors.
You have a couple of managers.
You've got account executives.
(21:49):
You've got a couple of people who do what I do, but they were in a different group.
Oracle has a lot of fingers in the pie, so a lot of different software.
So I didn't necessarily have anybody on my team who was of color who did what I did.
But they were there, and they lived in different cities.
in Houston and different places and we would communicate when we could and stuff.
(22:13):
So it wasn't really until, and then I get to New Relic.
When I first came to New Relic in 2018, believe it or not, my onboarding mentor was awoman of color.
She the company.
She left the company.
Her name was Grace Andrews.
Grace Andrews had been at New Relic about a year before I came.
(22:34):
She left New Relic in
September, 2020.
Yeah, she left in 2020.
There was another woman of color who I can't think of her name at the moment.
She was on the enterprise side.
She left shortly thereafter that.
And then, you know, that was, it was just those two and me.
(22:57):
Okay.
So it wasn't until you came along, Rachel, that then there was like, I mean, literallylike,
excited.
I'm like, God, there's a one thing I said, one thing hired a woman of color.
gotta go talk to her as soon as I can, and find out what's going on and see, you know,we've got to, you know, make sure she's gets what she needs, because I don't know, you
(23:17):
know, who's talking to her, who's helping her or any of that.
You know, and so that's what it's been like, it hasn't been, you know, it's just reallyweird how it's different.
I have to say for Sade and Zyria, they while it's been tough, it's still
better now than what happened 38 years ago when I started out in doing it.
(23:42):
It's, still better.
You know, it's still not perfect, but it's definitely better.
And that's why I like to play it forward because I want to see more of me doing this ormore of me in tech.
You don't have to do what I do.
You could be a salesperson and you could be a marketing director or whatever, but justmore of me.
(24:03):
in this business and not having to deal with some of the things that I've had to, that Ihave dealt with, you know, in this space.
Let me ask, so, so you make a couple of really great points, Gwen, and I'm just going toask this question, all of you and, know, whoever wants to answer, just jump in.
So it's not as bad as it used to be.
It's gotten better, but it's still not great as we've already discussed.
(24:27):
So what do you think needs to happen to, like, what needs to be fixed?
Like what's
That's maybe a too big a question for us to answer here, but I'm just curious about yourthoughts about how do we fix it?
Not that it's our job to fix it, but just what needs to be fixed and how can it be fixed?
(24:50):
That's a tough question.
silence.
I think that sometimes, women of color, we come across as being, I want to say bold,because bold is good.
We should be.
You have to be bold in self, and nothing's going to happen.
(25:11):
But it comes across that we have a chip on our shoulders.
That we have a chip on our shoulders that
We have some negative connotation to begin with, and that's not true.
We don't, but there's been a lot of history.
There are things that have happened that cause you to want to put your back up, so tospeak, because you're afraid that, is this person, are these people going to try to take
(25:37):
advantage of me?
Are they not going to see the capabilities I have?
I mean, I was raised by a man.
My father said, never.
tell them everything you know, because they just want to get your knowledge and then dumpyou.
He used to tell me that.
Yeah, my father was in the military.
And, and so he used to constantly I mean, even as an adult woman working in this space, hewould read what kind of conversation goes, don't let them know how smart you are.
(26:08):
Wow.
And I would be like, he said, you do enough to keep your job, you do enough to do a goodjob on your job, but don't let them know everything you know.
because they get their, they will get everything from you and then they will dump you.
Wow.
So he used to, and so he obviously felt that or had some experience or something that hewas trying to save his child from having to deal with.
(26:32):
Right.
Right.
And, so I think in some ways in the industry is somehow we don't come across as beingsmart.
And we don't know what we don't know a lot.
And that's just not true.
That's just not true.
We have to work hard in this space.
You know, you have to work hard in this space.
(26:52):
I don't know anybody woman.
Well, my fact who doesn't work hard in space.
In fact, I think we work harder and do better than our male counterparts of any color.
I, okay.
We are just organized animals.
Okay.
We know how to get things done.
We can walk chew gum and run at the same time.
(27:15):
I'm serious.
mean, it's dealing with, we have a situation that we're dealing with now here at work.
And it ended up being me and two other women.
Once the manager, once the AE we are handling something that was Gwen and a couple ofmales.
Now it's Gwen and two female, two other women, and we are handling it.
(27:40):
And there's, we're not showing any pressure or any stress.
We're handling it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you still internalize that message that your father gave you that, you know, don't showthem how smart you are.
Do you, you internalize that still?
You know what?
Not as much at New Relic as I did years ago.
My father, unfortunately, is no longer living.
(28:02):
He's been gone for over 20 years, but I still remember things he told me and I still thinkabout it.
But at New Relic, I don't find that I have to do that because I've been celebrated at NewRelic a lot for my knowledge or for helping somebody with something.
(28:22):
So I don't feel threatened or I don't feel like, well, I can't let them know I know that,you know, and I have been told by management, you know, they have said, Gwen, you're a
life learner.
You've done this, you do that.
Um, you know, and, and so I don't fear.
I don't fear that.
Gotcha.
You I don't feel that as much as I did.
Yeah.
I don't run around telling everybody about all the certifications that I have gotten whileI've been at New Relic.
(28:48):
I felt I needed them because of what we're doing.
But you know, you post things on LinkedIn, somebody went to my LinkedIn profile and dugthem up.
You know, they're like, did you know that she did this, this, this, and this, and she'sgot this, this, this, and this.
And they created a slide on it and shared it with other people.
And then I was like,
Wow.
(29:08):
And I was like, why are you guys doing that?
And they were like, Gwen, we're going to celebrate you.
This is awesome.
And at that point I felt like, okay, I don't have to hold that back the way my father hadsuggested.
that's, that's really nice.
That's, that's good to hear.
I'm going to turn the, I'm going to turn the question to a Sadé and Zyria.
(29:30):
So, you know, maybe, so the original question was, you know, what, what needs to be fixed?
And if you don't have an answer to that, tell me about how you're networking in tech.
Like, what are you doing to fix the environment for yourself as a black woman in tech?
(29:52):
These are some very profound questions, Rachel.
Just took that out there.
I'm just asking you to be real.
I'm not asking you to solve the problems of the world.
Just tell me, what do you do?
do you feel?
We talked about how it's sort of a hostile tech environment, or it's difficult to be aBlack woman in tech.
So what are you doing for yourself?
What is your self-care routine to survive a career in tech?
(30:20):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And Shani, I know you got self-care routines.
Don't even pretend like you don't.
I do have self-care routines.
But to answer your initial question, like, how could we improve or how could we makethings better?
I think by just showing up, being excellent, being vocal.
(30:41):
Now that's something that I definitely have a hard time with or that's something I've beentrying to work on because when I started, I was a software engineer.
And I worked behind the scenes.
wasn't customer facing at all.
So I kept all this knowledge within myself, you know, but transitioning into a morecustomer facing role, like dev role engineering is like, okay, now I have a voice and I
(31:06):
could potentially speak on different platforms from the company.
And it's like, okay, how do I do that?
Well, if I feel like.
They think that black women or black people in general don't have the knowledge.
I need to make sure I do have that knowledge.
I need to show up and study, put in the work, not just pretend like I know, but actuallylearn the stuff, build the confidence, gain the expertise, and then come into these spaces
(31:29):
and communicate that, you know, show other people that look like me, that I know my stuff,I know my material, pay it forward like you and Gwen have been doing, you know, just.
being mentors or just talking to people that come after me, any successors.
And I have started a community, like I started my own Discord server with other peoplethat are really, really skilled in technology or engineering, but they don't necessarily
(31:58):
use that voice.
So I'm trying to be like, even though I can be seen as shy, I am the person that try tolike push us to like, okay, we know these things, like we're experts in these areas that's
actually
go to these conferences, let's actually showcase our skills.
So I just felt like showing up can make things better and showing up in the spaces that wedon't normally occupy.
(32:22):
So like local meetups, I know we have all of these black conferences, which are excellent,but it's like, what are we showing?
Are we showing our skills or are we off, showing ourselves off?
Yeah, that's a good point.
That's a very good point.
Which is cool, but I feel like we just need to show off.
our knowledge so we could change the narrative.
(32:43):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
Zyria, what does networking and mentorship mean to you as someone who's at the beginningof your career?
Well, yeah, since I'm at the beginning of my career, I would say networking and mentorshipis really important because I'm trying to gain those connections, stay in the industry.
(33:07):
and learn from others at the same time.
Yeah, so I try to stay on LinkedIn and interact with the LinkedIn community.
I actually got the chance to go to Afro Tech last year.
And I met so many different people and actually met a couple of black women who were inthe design field, which is the same field that I'm in.
(33:33):
So.
Yeah, really just like be open into sharing my experience too, because I feel likementorship is a two way streak.
So like I can learn something and whoever's mentoring me can learn something too.
So you're just being like open to share and just have like a normal discussion withpeople.
(33:55):
And I just learned that like, you never know what it'll turn out to be like in the future.
So yeah.
That's beautiful.
Well, ladies, think we, you know, we've got a hard stop, so I think we should startwrapping up.
Any final thoughts before we wrap?
I would say this.
(34:16):
think that another good way to change the environment of tech right now is for companiesto hire more black people.
Like, right?
Yeah.
mean, start hiring more amounts of black people to bring up the percentages of black folksat the company because you can't have impact if they're not there.
(34:40):
I feel like it doesn't matter how many cultural
social media posts you make or you know how interested you are when Black History Monthcomes around.
If there isn't a good amount of black people at the company overall then it's like whatimpact are you really making.
Yeah that's a point.
(35:01):
Anyone else have any final thoughts?
No pressure.
I have a quick question.
don't know if this is appropriate to say, but just based off of what Zyria said, I feellike New Relic was that company for me because I've worked at other companies and I didn't
(35:25):
see that many black people.
Yes, they were there, but they were all segregated for lack of better terms.
But when I came to New Relic, I saw so many black people on blogs.
I saw the group chat and I'm just like, snap, like this company must be lit just becauseof all the black faces I saw.
worked with, like when I went to a tech company, I started working with more women andmore people around my age.
(35:47):
I enjoyed, when I came to New Relic, I saw more women that were black, some around my age,some not, some that were around the age of the same men that I worked with at the
beginning of my career that were pretty condescending.
But it's like, you all have the same exact knowledge and experience that they did, andit's just nice to see because I was made to believe that they were the experts in this
(36:10):
realm.
That's not even the truth.
When I see you all, it's like, okay, like, they were there too, you know?
So...
Right, right.
No, that's a good point.
That's a good point.
And you're right, it was different at New Relic because it was the ERGs, it was theemployee resource groups, Black Relics, Black Girl Magic Relics, that like, that's how we
all connected.
And...
We also, I started in 2020, I think, Zyria, you were an intern in 2021, was it?
(36:38):
I think, I don't remember.
2022, okay.
then Shada, you started in 2023, right?
So, when I started in 2020, that was the year that the pandemic, George Floyd, there wasall kinds of things going on.
And we were fortunate at New Relic that we had a black woman who was in charge of HR, ourchief diversity and people.
(36:59):
she wasn't chief chief people officer at the time that I started, but she was the chiefdiversity officer at the time that I started.
when there was just so much going on, there was so much trauma in our community.
And she brought in resources for us to have group therapy sessions at work.
We were having.
Black Relic happy hours, we were doing all kinds of things that made us a strongercommunity.
(37:21):
So I think that to your point, Sadé, when you got, by the time you got there, it was justa really strong, I mean, I'm not saying it was a strong community before that.
I think that that, you know, the things that happened in 2020 helped to strengthen ourcommunity and it continued into 2021, some of those sessions and whatnot.
So I just think that it was a really strong community and it was because we had a good DE&I community, know, good DE &I leader and
(37:46):
DNI team at New Relic.
And so I think that's the reason why it was definitely like a unicorn.
was not anything like any micro.
I've been in corporate America for 30 plus years before I was at New Relic and I'd neverseen anything like it.
So yeah, I have to agree with you that it was very different.
Well, just want to say, I'm sorry, go.
(38:08):
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, one other thing I think that companies overall shoulddo, they, you know, don't stop giving lip service to DE &I and stuff.
Really live it.
Really.
You're going to say that you support DE &I, then really support it.
And they should be sending recruiters out to black colleges all over the nation.
(38:32):
Okay.
And talk to me if it's, you're looking for marketing people, then talk to the marketingdepartment.
You're looking for IT people, engineering people, then talk to the appropriatedepartments.
See who's graduating, see who's at the top of their class or whatever, and see who'sinterested in working at a software company or whatever.
And you'll find people that way.
(38:54):
Yeah.
You'll find good people that way because they are out there.
You know,
I was reminded of something I cannot remember the name of this movie that came out a fewyears ago, but it's about women and they were mathematicians and how they helped NASA.
And that was kept quiet.
Hidden figures.
(39:15):
There you go.
And those women were women of color.
Yeah.
Mathematicians.
Actually, I a problem sending the man to the moon.
black women sending a white man to the moon.
You may want to cut that out.
No, I'm not cutting, I am absolutely not cutting that out.
(39:37):
is all about, we're all about authenticity here.
So we are not cutting that out.
That was what it was.
And I was like a baby or something when that was happening.
So when that movie came out, I was like, I don't remember that.
And then someone said, well, weren't you like an infant or something around that time?
I'm like, yeah, don't, how could I know about it?
(39:59):
It was, I thought it was intriguing.
I loved it.
And I was like, wow, black women who were mathematicians helping to get people to themoon.
Yeah, there's a, I mentioned it in another podcast episode.
There is a PBS special, it's like an eight minute thing.
They used to do this series called, what is it called?
(40:21):
The Origin of Everything.
And they have an Origin of Everything episode about why there are so few women incomputers.
And they talk about
that same story as well as just other women who were pioneers in the field that werepushed out because originally computers were considered secretarial because it's typing.
So it was for women.
And then when they realized the prestige of the field, then men were like, well, thenwe're going to take it over.
(40:43):
We're going to push the women out.
So again, I'll put a link in the show notes for folks who want to watch it and I'll sendit to you ladies as well.
But yeah, we were pioneers.
Women were pioneers.
Black women were pioneers.
And then we were pushed out.
You know, now we are told by society or it's implied by society that computers and techare not, is not for us.
(41:04):
It's not for black women and it's not true.
And so that's part of why I'm doing what I'm doing is to let everybody know, no, we'rehere and we're not going anywhere.
We're smart.
We can, know, like we, we're, we, we're it, you know, we're everything and you need toknow it.
so that's part of why I'm doing what I'm doing.
And I just want to thank you ladies.
(41:25):
What'd you say, Sade?
I think you're doing great.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast.
My pleasure.
What's your question?
I know, was just saying it was my pleasure to be on the podcast.
Oh, thank you.
know, happy to offer up my opinions on these things because...
(41:46):
Said it's been a long time.
I could talk for hours about some of the stuff I have dealt with.
Oh, I'm happy to have you back.
Like I said, I'm definitely going to have you back to talk about your bakery because Iwant to talk about that.
we can, we can, by the way, we can do this anytime y'all want.
Hey, you know what?
If we just want to get together and just chat, we can do this whenever you want.
Yeah.
Okay.
(42:07):
All right.
I'm going to wrap it up here.
I'm going to say to our audience that I want to say thank you for listening.
Visit.
Subscribe that imperfectgenius.com to subscribe to our newsletter or receive a copy of ourshow notes.
Leave us a voicemail with your questions at 404-425-9862.
And you may hear an answer to your question on a future podcast episode.
You can follow us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
(42:29):
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may notbe flawless, it can be phenomenal.
Hello everyone.
I am re-releasing this episode, episode two of the Imperfect Genius podcast because thetopic, Mentoring Black Women in Tech, is quintessential to the mission at Imperfect
Genius, which is mentoring women of color in the tech industry.
In it, I talk to three other women of color in the tech industry, some that I havementored and one that has mentored me.
(00:24):
Take a listen and I hope you enjoy.
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast helping black women thrive by providing technicaladvice on effectively navigating the business development journey and advice on building
(00:46):
successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
this is a very special episode for me today, guys.
With me today are three beautiful black women who hold a very special place in my heart.
And they're honestly making me just a little bit homesick for the community of Black womenthat I had to say goodbye to when I left Corporate America.
(01:10):
Joining me today are Gwen Hurd, Sadé C.
Johnson, and Zyria Lott.
Ladies, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for agreeing to do this.
I miss you guys so much, by the way.
Like, it's just so great to see your beautiful faces.
I feel like...
(01:30):
Oh, a little bit of, it's like a micro BGM, which I have to explain to our listeners.
used to have, we used to all work together and we used to have this community, an ERG,Employed Resource Group, called Black Girl Magic.
And we used to have these lunch and learns all the time.
And we used to get to see all these beautiful black women and talk about our, know, talkabout what's going on at work or just talk about what's going on in our lives.
(01:52):
It was just amazing.
So when I say I'm a little bit homesick by seeing these, these faces, I am just a littlebit homesick, but
I think let's start with a little bit about, so this particular episode, we're talkingabout mentoring and networking.
So speaking of the community that we used to have that, well, you guys still have it,unfortunately, I don't have it anymore, but you all still have it.
(02:15):
But we're talking about mentoring and networking for black women in tech and what doesthat mean?
And I think I wanna start in the middle of the story with sort of how we all met.
And the reason I say the middle is because,
We'll go back and we'll talk about how you all got into tech and obviously the future isunwritten.
So we're in the middle.
Let's start with you, Gwen.
my goodness.
(02:35):
I will never forget.
I think it was my second week on the job and I got a Slack message from you and you werelike, I'm having office hours.
You need to come.
I need to tell you like everything you need to know about being a solutions consultant.
Because we, for the listeners, had, Gwen and I had the same job and I had just started andshe'd been working at the company.
for how many years had you been there?
(02:57):
This was in 2020, I think I had been there two and a half, maybe almost three years whenyou joined.
Okay.
Actually, least two and a half for sure.
Okay.
So yeah, so Gwen had been doing the job that I had just started doing for two and a half,three years.
It's time that I joined.
And my second week, she reaches out to me and she's like, I'm having office hours.
(03:18):
You need to come.
And I'm like,
who is this person?
But I'm like, okay, you know, I'm like, sure, okay, I'll do that.
And then I ended up being the only one who showed up for your office hours and you talkedto me for an hour.
told me everything I needed to know about my job in an hour.
And then you said, you know what, I'm going to invite you to all my customer demos.
Cause we were doing technical sales.
(03:38):
And you said, I'm going to invite you out of my customer demos.
You don't have to worry about talking to the clients.
I'll just tell them that you're just observing.
You know, you don't have to be nervous.
And you invited me to all that you like sent me like a month's worth of invites.
And then I just watched you be awesome.
I basically just joined your customer calls and watched you be awesome.
It was amazing.
It was absolutely amazing.
Talk to me about like, I know that's a thing that you do all the time, Gwen, which is toreach out and to do mentoring for people.
(04:05):
Like just tell me a little bit about your process.
like, why did you, why did you pick me and say, Hey, let me, let me talk to you about howto do your job.
Well,
You know, I've been in the business for such a long time that I was so excited when Ifirst found out, Rachel, that you had joined the company because I don't typically see
(04:25):
myself in it.
I don't see myself in this position.
And it's, you know, so I was so excited and I was like, my gosh, I really want to talk toher and make sure that she gets everything that she should because this is a, this is
really a buddy company when it comes to.
you know, working in sales and technical people.
So I wanted to play that forward, you know, to make sure that you were successful rightoff the bat and that you knew where to go to get whatever help you needed if you needed
(04:55):
some help.
And so that was my goal because I was just really happy and excited.
It's this being in tech, you know, it's a huge, it's a huge accomplishment.
It's also
It's just like any job, it can have its stress levels and stuff.
But being able to see more of us in this space is something that I strive to do becauseI've been in the business for such a long time.
(05:23):
And for years, I did not ever see myself.
Yeah, I know.
I didn't see myself as a woman, period.
And I definitely did not see a woman of color.
Yeah, no, I 100%.
I know.
You and I have been doing this for a really long time.
You've been doing it a little bit longer than me, I think, but for decades.
(05:44):
I you were the first Black female mentor.
First female?
No.
Yeah, I want to say my first female mentor, but at the same time that you were my mentor,Stacey Simmons was my onboarding buddy.
So I got both of you at the same time.
So you were my first Black female mentor, though.
In three decades in the tech industry, you were the first.
(06:04):
And so to your point, for the first 10 years,
that I was in the field, didn't, I was the only woman, I was the only black person, I wasdefinitely the only black woman.
So I know exactly what you mean.
But that's why when I started, it was just so important to me to just have that communityof black girl magic and having other black women in tech, whether they were engineers or
(06:27):
not, just being able to have that community was really important to me.
And then, you we had the, luckily you were in the same, in the Atlanta area, same.
with me and I was able to meet you in person for some of the in-person meetups in theoffice.
And so that was great.
And then she even made me custom cookies.
by the way, Gwen, I'm going to, know, side note, I want to definitely have you back on thepodcast to talk about Ms.
(06:48):
Gwen's cookie factory at a later date, because we want to talk about entrepreneurship.
But let's move on.
want to talk.
I'm going to go to Zyria next, because she's the person that I met next at the company.
So Zyria.
started as a summer intern and I was assigned as her mentor.
And it was so funny because I was like, well, yeah, I'm the only other black woman in thedepartment.
So of course they're going to sign me as her mentor.
(07:09):
But I didn't mind because I'm like, I wanted to shepherd you.
I wanted to protect you.
I wanted to be like the mama bear and keep you from all of the nastiness that can happenin tech.
So Zyria, tell me about your experience as a summer intern and then how we ended up withour ongoing mentorship.
So yeah, my experience as a summer intern was
(07:29):
It really well.
I got to, well really, got to meet Rachel.
I met Rachel during my last interview, actually, for the company.
And honestly, I was so scared of her.
I was like, oh my gosh.
I don't know.
just, I don't even know what vibe I got, but I was just like, Why were you scared of me?
(07:54):
Well, I don't know.
I think like on the panel,
like you were just so like straight faced and you were just like, know, really justreally, I think you asked me a question and you were like, okay, like you know you, like
you know you, like that's you.
But you know, then, you know, it was so funny.
(08:16):
And then I got the internship and then I met you, was still a little bit scared, but thenI got to actually meet you and I saw, you know, like how much of a caring person you were.
and how passionate you were, like you said, making sure that I was good at the company andthat nobody was running over me or anything.
But yeah, you were my first black woman mentor, because this was my first experience beingin tech anyway with the summer internship.
(08:45):
So yeah, just to be able to have that mentorship and then hear your experience of workingin tech, it was very beneficial for me.
because I was still like a junior in college and I didn't even know what I wanted to dowith my life.
So, you know, just to have like that mentorship and that guidance was really beneficial.
Yeah, it was really beneficial.
Well, that's cool.
(09:06):
And then you reached out to me after you went back to school, because you had one moreyear of school, and you reached out and said, hey, would you mind still being my mentor?
And I was like, sure, no problem.
And so it's just for the audience to let them know.
So for her final year of college, I continued to be her mentor.
And then she came back, she got a full-time offer from the same company and she came backand then we continued.
(09:28):
And so that's a little bit about our story.
And now let's move on to Ms.
Sadé C.
Johnson, which by the way, you always have to say her full name.
It's Sadé C.
Johnson.
It's never just Sadé.
By the way, why is that Sadé?
Because I feel like there are many Shades, there are many Sadé Johnsons, but...
(09:49):
the C as the distinguishing factor.
So there is only one.
There's only one Sadé C.
Johnson.
So miss Sadé C.
Johnson.
can't, I honestly, I don't remember.
I remember sort of like telling you that I was going to be your mentor.
Like I didn't ask you.
didn't, you didn't ask me.
I just remember, but I don't remember when we officially met.
(10:12):
just remember I had changed roles in the company.
I changed roles in the company a couple of different times and I changed roles and I juststarted in my role as a developer relations advocate.
And I think it was like a month, not even a month after I started, you started.
And I was like, okay, I gotta take care of her.
was like, even though I was new to the role and didn't know anything about being adeveloper relations advocate, I had been at the company for I think two and a half years
(10:40):
at that point in time.
and you were new to the company and I was like, I gotta take care of her.
Like, what's your memory of how we met?
Like, honestly don't even remember the details.
Oh man, so I joined the company in March of 2023 and I looked at the, had met with mymanager and he pretty much told me everybody that I should meet and you were one of those
(11:01):
people.
And I saw that you were a black woman and I was like, oh snap.
So then I went to LinkedIn and I checked your credentials and I'm like, wow.
This is pretty intimidating.
Like, you really know her stuff.
And then I'm like, OK.
And I was like, I was excited to work with you because I had never worked professionallywith another Black woman.
So I'm like, oh, this should be cool.
Like, I knew other Black women that worked in technology, but I never knew, like, thedepths of their actual work.
(11:28):
So working with you and learning from you because you were a senior and I was just gettinginto the space, I was like, OK, this is cool.
But on the first day, you had added me to the Black Girl.
Magic group chat you added me to like group chat all of them really and then youintroduced yourself to me You told me about all of the things that you're involved in.
(11:49):
I'm like, wow, she really is so important How is she doing a million things and doing thisrole, which I hear is pretty involved?
So that's pretty much my memory of you.
And then when we finally met and had a conversation I was really impressed and I'm justlike, okay.
Okay, this is cool and I started working with you like we started doing events or
I would attend meetings where you would sit there and I'm like, wow, like, this is who Iwant to like help nurture me and grow me into my role because although your credentials
(12:18):
seemed intimidating, like you were pretty sharp, but like you were very approachable andyou have very quality work and you have a very good speaking voice.
And those are all attributes that I wanted to adapt as well.
So I'm like, yeah, Rachel is that person.
Oh, thank you.
Between you and Zari, you guys got me feeling like I need to revamp my persona.
(12:42):
Everybody's afraid of me.
Like, what's up with that?
Like, I'm intimidating.
Wow.
I'm going to have to like, have to work on my...
Because you're so amazing.
Oh, sorry.
Oh, stop.
Yeah, no, really.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
For the audience, I paid them to say that, y'all.
So, you know, thank you.
I'll slip you all the money afterwards.
(13:04):
Okay, so now it's interesting because I like I said earlier that Gwen was my first blackfemale mentor and both of you just said the same of me, which is interesting because I
like I say I spent decades in tech before finding you Gwen my first female black femalementor.
I just want to talk a little bit more about I know, know, Zyria, you're at the beginningof your journey.
(13:26):
Sadé, you're in the middle and Gwen, I'm not going to say you're at the end of yourjourney.
I just say you've been on the journey longer.
I just want to know a little bit more about, since we were all each other's first, youknow, black female mentors, what was it like for you in tech before that?
I think I want to start with Zyria.
Let's go Zyria Sade and then Gwen.
So we'll start with you, Zyria, because you were, you know, you were coming out of collegeand then you went into the tech field.
(13:50):
So what was your experience as a black woman in tech?
So yeah, in college, I didn't have a tech background.
I got my bachelor's in English and then my minor was in technical writing.
But even within the technical writing field, like with the technical writing, likeinternships or jobs I had before I met you at the previous company that you were at, there
(14:14):
still weren't black women that I could talk to or reach out to or anything like that.
They were all non-color people with the attitudes and the assumptions that.
you don't know what you're doing maybe because you know because I'm a black woman or Idon't deserve to be here or I possibly got in here because I'm like some DEI thing.
(14:39):
So it was just like a bunch of that and not really like any mentorship like I had to do alot of things on my own or you know figure out information on my own.
But once you know I came to the company met you and you became my mentor I guess I
I finally felt like I had a safe space or someone who could advocate for me.
(15:03):
Because even the team that I joined during my internship, you were the only black womanand I was the only black intern on the team too.
Yeah, I was the only black intern.
So it's not like I had that safe space to communicate to anybody if I was feeling somekind of way or if I had a question.
(15:26):
Oh, did that just happen?
You know, I would come to you and like confirm it and you you would give me advice.
So I think you just made like you made well, one of the many things you did was like makeit a little bit more bearable.
Like experiencing anything because I knew that I had someone to talk to, someone likecheering me on, you know, someone who can, you know, like tell me to keep going.
(15:52):
So, yeah, that's nice.
That's nice.
Now, Sadé, you had been in tech for a while before you and I met.
So again, what was your experience in tech as a Black woman?
It was pretty similar to Zyria's.
I worked with a lot of people of color, but they weren't Black.
And they weren't Black women, you know?
So that was an experience.
(16:14):
They were pretty cutthroat, I would say.
And it just made me want to work.
harder or it made me like want to go into silos and try to do extra work so I could try toget up to speed.
But and this is when I was working at finance, which is naturally a cutthroat industry.
And then I moved to a tech company, AWS.
(16:35):
That was my favorite job.
But again, there were no black women on my team.
I was that only one, which was fine.
I didn't really think much of it.
I'm just like, OK, I got to be great so they can see the representation, know, see us in agood light.
But then when I came to the company where I met you, I'm like, snap, like she really isrepresenting.
Like I remember getting on a call and you were talking about a game that you had for orcreated, Dangerous Day.
(17:03):
not sure if I'm.
say that.
Yeah, no, that's fine.
It's fine.
My GitHub.
it's fine.
So I heard you talking about the game.
You was like, I did this already already did this.
I did this connection.
I did this.
I'm like, my goodness, she's actually using so much technical jargon.
It makes sense to me.
She's approachable.
I could talk to her about this.
I could read it because you have excellent documentation fields.
(17:24):
They'll very hectic and fast paced, but having to work with you made the process a littlebit easier because when I needed to speak at events or
present something, I could always go to you knowing that that was your expertise and justget real feedback.
Like you wouldn't just say, you did good.
You would be like, no, why'd do that?
Why'd do it?
Like I'm not really appreciated the honesty because I'm like, that's really like, I had tohumble myself, but that's the only way that I knew that I would grow.
(17:49):
Like I liked the fact that you gave me feedback and tried to help me versus in thebeginning of my career where they just gave feedback and I had to try to figure it out on
my own, you know?
So you created that safe space for me.
I tell ya, y'all make me seem so mean, but that's okay.
No, I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
(18:22):
Okay, so Gwen, tell me about your experience as a black woman.
You talked a little bit about it in the beginning, but just tell us a little bit moreabout your journey and your experience as a black woman in tech.
Okay, so I've been in the business for such a long time.
I didn't have a mentor.
I did not have, there was no mentoring of any kind during the time period in which I wasthinking about getting into tech and
(18:51):
Ultimately, when I went to college and stuff, I did not have a mentor.
The one thing I can say that I did have or did do was in high school, I was a BellLaboratory scholarship student.
And that helped shape a lot of things for me because even when I was in college, three ofthe people that I had worked with there, these people were at PhDs and mathematics and
(19:16):
stuff, they communicated with me.
you know, see how I was doing and then that type of thing.
But as far as, and they of course were not people of color.
And in fact, I was the only scholarship student of color that was there for that, forthose couple of summers, which was like summer of 1975 and summer of 1976.
(19:41):
All right, so going forward when I started working,
I started off as a CIS systems programmer, so I was not customer facing yet.
Well, for my first three years, I was the only woman I was to see of white guys, and thereweren't even any white women.
(20:01):
just, it just wasn't.
And it wasn't until I got in three years in, and then when I came to, I moved, was movedto Atlanta by a software company called Pan-Sophic Systems.
And this is when I started.
the customer facing journey, there were women.
were white women, but there were women.
(20:22):
There was one woman who did what I did, the other women there that were administrators.
Yeah, that's typical.
then there were guys.
There was one man of color.
But the rest of them are white guys.
And that's where it started.
It wasn't until I got to Oracle.
(20:44):
in 2012 that I saw a whole lot of women of color in the lobby, in the building I was in inRuston, Virginia.
I'm like, I was really excited.
I was like, there's a bunch of women.
And so there were people there who did not understand my excitement with that.
And then there were people there who did understand it.
(21:06):
And so I was like, you don't understand what it's like to be a woman of color.
working in this industry for as long as I've been in the industry at that time.
And now I finally see myself.
I see more of me here.
I said, it's a wonderful feeling to be able to do that.
And that's 2012.
(21:27):
I had already been in the business almost 30 years by that time.
And so I was at Oracle for almost six years.
And so yes, there were women of color.
were.
There were women of color, and there was a couple in power.
There was a couple directors.
You have a couple of managers.
You've got account executives.
(21:49):
You've got a couple of people who do what I do, but they were in a different group.
Oracle has a lot of fingers in the pie, so a lot of different software.
So I didn't necessarily have anybody on my team who was of color who did what I did.
But they were there, and they lived in different cities.
in Houston and different places and we would communicate when we could and stuff.
(22:13):
So it wasn't really until, and then I get to New Relic.
When I first came to New Relic in 2018, believe it or not, my onboarding mentor was awoman of color.
She the company.
She left the company.
Her name was Grace Andrews.
Grace Andrews had been at New Relic about a year before I came.
(22:34):
She left New Relic in
September, 2020.
Yeah, she left in 2020.
There was another woman of color who I can't think of her name at the moment.
She was on the enterprise side.
She left shortly thereafter that.
And then, you know, that was, it was just those two and me.
(22:57):
Okay.
So it wasn't until you came along, Rachel, that then there was like, I mean, literallylike,
excited.
I'm like, God, there's a one thing I said, one thing hired a woman of color.
gotta go talk to her as soon as I can, and find out what's going on and see, you know,we've got to, you know, make sure she's gets what she needs, because I don't know, you
(23:17):
know, who's talking to her, who's helping her or any of that.
You know, and so that's what it's been like, it hasn't been, you know, it's just reallyweird how it's different.
I have to say for Sade and Zyria, they while it's been tough, it's still
better now than what happened 38 years ago when I started out in doing it.
(23:42):
It's, still better.
You know, it's still not perfect, but it's definitely better.
And that's why I like to play it forward because I want to see more of me doing this ormore of me in tech.
You don't have to do what I do.
You could be a salesperson and you could be a marketing director or whatever, but justmore of me.
(24:03):
in this business and not having to deal with some of the things that I've had to, that Ihave dealt with, you know, in this space.
Let me ask, so, so you make a couple of really great points, Gwen, and I'm just going toask this question, all of you and, know, whoever wants to answer, just jump in.
So it's not as bad as it used to be.
It's gotten better, but it's still not great as we've already discussed.
(24:27):
So what do you think needs to happen to, like, what needs to be fixed?
Like what's
That's maybe a too big a question for us to answer here, but I'm just curious about yourthoughts about how do we fix it?
Not that it's our job to fix it, but just what needs to be fixed and how can it be fixed?
(24:50):
That's a tough question.
silence.
I think that sometimes, women of color, we come across as being, I want to say bold,because bold is good.
We should be.
You have to be bold in self, and nothing's going to happen.
(25:11):
But it comes across that we have a chip on our shoulders.
That we have a chip on our shoulders that
We have some negative connotation to begin with, and that's not true.
We don't, but there's been a lot of history.
There are things that have happened that cause you to want to put your back up, so tospeak, because you're afraid that, is this person, are these people going to try to take
(25:37):
advantage of me?
Are they not going to see the capabilities I have?
I mean, I was raised by a man.
My father said, never.
tell them everything you know, because they just want to get your knowledge and then dumpyou.
He used to tell me that.
Yeah, my father was in the military.
And, and so he used to constantly I mean, even as an adult woman working in this space, hewould read what kind of conversation goes, don't let them know how smart you are.
(26:08):
Wow.
And I would be like, he said, you do enough to keep your job, you do enough to do a goodjob on your job, but don't let them know everything you know.
because they get their, they will get everything from you and then they will dump you.
Wow.
So he used to, and so he obviously felt that or had some experience or something that hewas trying to save his child from having to deal with.
(26:32):
Right.
Right.
And, so I think in some ways in the industry is somehow we don't come across as beingsmart.
And we don't know what we don't know a lot.
And that's just not true.
That's just not true.
We have to work hard in this space.
You know, you have to work hard in this space.
(26:52):
I don't know anybody woman.
Well, my fact who doesn't work hard in space.
In fact, I think we work harder and do better than our male counterparts of any color.
I, okay.
We are just organized animals.
Okay.
We know how to get things done.
We can walk chew gum and run at the same time.
(27:15):
I'm serious.
mean, it's dealing with, we have a situation that we're dealing with now here at work.
And it ended up being me and two other women.
Once the manager, once the AE we are handling something that was Gwen and a couple ofmales.
Now it's Gwen and two female, two other women, and we are handling it.
(27:40):
And there's, we're not showing any pressure or any stress.
We're handling it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you still internalize that message that your father gave you that, you know, don't showthem how smart you are.
Do you, you internalize that still?
You know what?
Not as much at New Relic as I did years ago.
My father, unfortunately, is no longer living.
(28:02):
He's been gone for over 20 years, but I still remember things he told me and I still thinkabout it.
But at New Relic, I don't find that I have to do that because I've been celebrated at NewRelic a lot for my knowledge or for helping somebody with something.
(28:22):
So I don't feel threatened or I don't feel like, well, I can't let them know I know that,you know, and I have been told by management, you know, they have said, Gwen, you're a
life learner.
You've done this, you do that.
Um, you know, and, and so I don't fear.
I don't fear that.
Gotcha.
You I don't feel that as much as I did.
Yeah.
I don't run around telling everybody about all the certifications that I have gotten whileI've been at New Relic.
(28:48):
I felt I needed them because of what we're doing.
But you know, you post things on LinkedIn, somebody went to my LinkedIn profile and dugthem up.
You know, they're like, did you know that she did this, this, this, and this, and she'sgot this, this, this, and this.
And they created a slide on it and shared it with other people.
And then I was like,
Wow.
(29:08):
And I was like, why are you guys doing that?
And they were like, Gwen, we're going to celebrate you.
This is awesome.
And at that point I felt like, okay, I don't have to hold that back the way my father hadsuggested.
that's, that's really nice.
That's, that's good to hear.
I'm going to turn the, I'm going to turn the question to a Sadé and Zyria.
(29:30):
So, you know, maybe, so the original question was, you know, what, what needs to be fixed?
And if you don't have an answer to that, tell me about how you're networking in tech.
Like, what are you doing to fix the environment for yourself as a black woman in tech?
(29:52):
These are some very profound questions, Rachel.
Just took that out there.
I'm just asking you to be real.
I'm not asking you to solve the problems of the world.
Just tell me, what do you do?
do you feel?
We talked about how it's sort of a hostile tech environment, or it's difficult to be aBlack woman in tech.
So what are you doing for yourself?
What is your self-care routine to survive a career in tech?
(30:20):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And Shani, I know you got self-care routines.
Don't even pretend like you don't.
I do have self-care routines.
But to answer your initial question, like, how could we improve or how could we makethings better?
I think by just showing up, being excellent, being vocal.
(30:41):
Now that's something that I definitely have a hard time with or that's something I've beentrying to work on because when I started, I was a software engineer.
And I worked behind the scenes.
wasn't customer facing at all.
So I kept all this knowledge within myself, you know, but transitioning into a morecustomer facing role, like dev role engineering is like, okay, now I have a voice and I
(31:06):
could potentially speak on different platforms from the company.
And it's like, okay, how do I do that?
Well, if I feel like.
They think that black women or black people in general don't have the knowledge.
I need to make sure I do have that knowledge.
I need to show up and study, put in the work, not just pretend like I know, but actuallylearn the stuff, build the confidence, gain the expertise, and then come into these spaces
(31:29):
and communicate that, you know, show other people that look like me, that I know my stuff,I know my material, pay it forward like you and Gwen have been doing, you know, just.
being mentors or just talking to people that come after me, any successors.
And I have started a community, like I started my own Discord server with other peoplethat are really, really skilled in technology or engineering, but they don't necessarily
(31:58):
use that voice.
So I'm trying to be like, even though I can be seen as shy, I am the person that try tolike push us to like, okay, we know these things, like we're experts in these areas that's
actually
go to these conferences, let's actually showcase our skills.
So I just felt like showing up can make things better and showing up in the spaces that wedon't normally occupy.
(32:22):
So like local meetups, I know we have all of these black conferences, which are excellent,but it's like, what are we showing?
Are we showing our skills or are we off, showing ourselves off?
Yeah, that's a good point.
That's a very good point.
Which is cool, but I feel like we just need to show off.
our knowledge so we could change the narrative.
(32:43):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
Zyria, what does networking and mentorship mean to you as someone who's at the beginningof your career?
Well, yeah, since I'm at the beginning of my career, I would say networking and mentorshipis really important because I'm trying to gain those connections, stay in the industry.
(33:07):
and learn from others at the same time.
Yeah, so I try to stay on LinkedIn and interact with the LinkedIn community.
I actually got the chance to go to Afro Tech last year.
And I met so many different people and actually met a couple of black women who were inthe design field, which is the same field that I'm in.
(33:33):
So.
Yeah, really just like be open into sharing my experience too, because I feel likementorship is a two way streak.
So like I can learn something and whoever's mentoring me can learn something too.
So you're just being like open to share and just have like a normal discussion withpeople.
(33:55):
And I just learned that like, you never know what it'll turn out to be like in the future.
So yeah.
That's beautiful.
Well, ladies, think we, you know, we've got a hard stop, so I think we should startwrapping up.
Any final thoughts before we wrap?
I would say this.
(34:16):
think that another good way to change the environment of tech right now is for companiesto hire more black people.
Like, right?
Yeah.
mean, start hiring more amounts of black people to bring up the percentages of black folksat the company because you can't have impact if they're not there.
(34:40):
I feel like it doesn't matter how many cultural
social media posts you make or you know how interested you are when Black History Monthcomes around.
If there isn't a good amount of black people at the company overall then it's like whatimpact are you really making.
Yeah that's a point.
(35:01):
Anyone else have any final thoughts?
No pressure.
I have a quick question.
don't know if this is appropriate to say, but just based off of what Zyria said, I feellike New Relic was that company for me because I've worked at other companies and I didn't
(35:25):
see that many black people.
Yes, they were there, but they were all segregated for lack of better terms.
But when I came to New Relic, I saw so many black people on blogs.
I saw the group chat and I'm just like, snap, like this company must be lit just becauseof all the black faces I saw.
worked with, like when I went to a tech company, I started working with more women andmore people around my age.
(35:47):
I enjoyed, when I came to New Relic, I saw more women that were black, some around my age,some not, some that were around the age of the same men that I worked with at the
beginning of my career that were pretty condescending.
But it's like, you all have the same exact knowledge and experience that they did, andit's just nice to see because I was made to believe that they were the experts in this
(36:10):
realm.
That's not even the truth.
When I see you all, it's like, okay, like, they were there too, you know?
So...
Right, right.
No, that's a good point.
That's a good point.
And you're right, it was different at New Relic because it was the ERGs, it was theemployee resource groups, Black Relics, Black Girl Magic Relics, that like, that's how we
all connected.
And...
We also, I started in 2020, I think, Zyria, you were an intern in 2021, was it?
(36:38):
I think, I don't remember.
2022, okay.
then Shada, you started in 2023, right?
So, when I started in 2020, that was the year that the pandemic, George Floyd, there wasall kinds of things going on.
And we were fortunate at New Relic that we had a black woman who was in charge of HR, ourchief diversity and people.
(36:59):
she wasn't chief chief people officer at the time that I started, but she was the chiefdiversity officer at the time that I started.
when there was just so much going on, there was so much trauma in our community.
And she brought in resources for us to have group therapy sessions at work.
We were having.
Black Relic happy hours, we were doing all kinds of things that made us a strongercommunity.
(37:21):
So I think that to your point, Sadé, when you got, by the time you got there, it was justa really strong, I mean, I'm not saying it was a strong community before that.
I think that that, you know, the things that happened in 2020 helped to strengthen ourcommunity and it continued into 2021, some of those sessions and whatnot.
So I just think that it was a really strong community and it was because we had a good DE&I community, know, good DE &I leader and
(37:46):
DNI team at New Relic.
And so I think that's the reason why it was definitely like a unicorn.
was not anything like any micro.
I've been in corporate America for 30 plus years before I was at New Relic and I'd neverseen anything like it.
So yeah, I have to agree with you that it was very different.
Well, just want to say, I'm sorry, go.
(38:08):
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, one other thing I think that companies overall shoulddo, they, you know, don't stop giving lip service to DE &I and stuff.
Really live it.
Really.
You're going to say that you support DE &I, then really support it.
And they should be sending recruiters out to black colleges all over the nation.
(38:32):
Okay.
And talk to me if it's, you're looking for marketing people, then talk to the marketingdepartment.
You're looking for IT people, engineering people, then talk to the appropriatedepartments.
See who's graduating, see who's at the top of their class or whatever, and see who'sinterested in working at a software company or whatever.
And you'll find people that way.
(38:54):
Yeah.
You'll find good people that way because they are out there.
You know,
I was reminded of something I cannot remember the name of this movie that came out a fewyears ago, but it's about women and they were mathematicians and how they helped NASA.
And that was kept quiet.
Hidden figures.
(39:15):
There you go.
And those women were women of color.
Yeah.
Mathematicians.
Actually, I a problem sending the man to the moon.
black women sending a white man to the moon.
You may want to cut that out.
No, I'm not cutting, I am absolutely not cutting that out.
(39:37):
is all about, we're all about authenticity here.
So we are not cutting that out.
That was what it was.
And I was like a baby or something when that was happening.
So when that movie came out, I was like, I don't remember that.
And then someone said, well, weren't you like an infant or something around that time?
I'm like, yeah, don't, how could I know about it?
(39:59):
It was, I thought it was intriguing.
I loved it.
And I was like, wow, black women who were mathematicians helping to get people to themoon.
Yeah, there's a, I mentioned it in another podcast episode.
There is a PBS special, it's like an eight minute thing.
They used to do this series called, what is it called?
(40:21):
The Origin of Everything.
And they have an Origin of Everything episode about why there are so few women incomputers.
And they talk about
that same story as well as just other women who were pioneers in the field that werepushed out because originally computers were considered secretarial because it's typing.
So it was for women.
And then when they realized the prestige of the field, then men were like, well, thenwe're going to take it over.
(40:43):
We're going to push the women out.
So again, I'll put a link in the show notes for folks who want to watch it and I'll sendit to you ladies as well.
But yeah, we were pioneers.
Women were pioneers.
Black women were pioneers.
And then we were pushed out.
You know, now we are told by society or it's implied by society that computers and techare not, is not for us.
(41:04):
It's not for black women and it's not true.
And so that's part of why I'm doing what I'm doing is to let everybody know, no, we'rehere and we're not going anywhere.
We're smart.
We can, know, like we, we're, we, we're it, you know, we're everything and you need toknow it.
so that's part of why I'm doing what I'm doing.
And I just want to thank you ladies.
(41:25):
What'd you say, Sade?
I think you're doing great.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast.
My pleasure.
What's your question?
I know, was just saying it was my pleasure to be on the podcast.
Oh, thank you.
know, happy to offer up my opinions on these things because...
(41:46):
Said it's been a long time.
I could talk for hours about some of the stuff I have dealt with.
Oh, I'm happy to have you back.
Like I said, I'm definitely going to have you back to talk about your bakery because Iwant to talk about that.
we can, we can, by the way, we can do this anytime y'all want.
Hey, you know what?
If we just want to get together and just chat, we can do this whenever you want.
Yeah.
Okay.
(42:07):
All right.
I'm going to wrap it up here.
I'm going to say to our audience that I want to say thank you for listening.
Visit.
Subscribe that imperfectgenius.com to subscribe to our newsletter or receive a copy of ourshow notes.
Leave us a voicemail with your questions at 404-425-9862.
And you may hear an answer to your question on a future podcast episode.
You can follow us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
(42:29):
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may notbe flawless, it can be phenomenal.
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