November 7, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode, host Rachel Foster closes out her Grace Hopper Celebration 2024 experience in conversation with fellow speaker Kaj Bansal, a Software Engineering Manager with a decade of experience in tech. They discuss their serendipitous meeting at the Grace Hopper Celebration, Kaj’s non-traditional career path into technology, and the importance of representation for women of color in tech. The conversation highlights the significance of networking, mentorship, and strategies for encouraging more women to pursue careers in technology.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps Black women thrive by providingtechnical advice on effectively navigating the business development journey and offers
advice to all women on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Today, I'm chatting with Kaj Bansal.
Kaj is a software engineering manager who has worked for 10 years in tech of her 18-yearcareer, is passionate about mentoring others and supporting the growth in women of color.
(00:36):
Kaj, welcome to the podcast.
Hey, thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this great series.
thank you.
I'm glad you think it's great.
And I thank you so much for accepting.
So I want to just talk about, you know, for the listeners, just let them know how we knoweach other.
We met on day one of the Grace Hopper celebration in Philadelphia.
(00:56):
And I got to say, like, it felt like kismet to me.
So like, we were both speakers.
And so because of that, we had early access to the Braindate platform, which I didn't.
At the time, I did not understand that the only people on the platform were just speakers.
So I was getting invites and I was like, I didn't realize it was just speakers.
And I think you were like one of the first, if not the first, you were like one of thefirst people to reach out to me to do a one-on-one brain date.
(01:19):
And so I knew your name from that.
And then it was like, I think a week later or so that they opened up the brain dateplatform for all participants.
And all of a sudden I was getting one-on-one invites like one every two minutes and itwas, they were just flooding in.
And I was like,
What is happening right now?
Like I was completely overwhelmed.
I had to like hide my brain date so that people couldn't find me because I was completelyoverwhelmed.
(01:41):
And so for those reasons though, that's why I knew your name because we had connectedearly on.
And then it was outside of the speaker reception.
We were going to the speaker reception on day one and it was outside of the speakerreception that we actually, I think we'd been chatting before, but we actually introduced
ourselves.
And as soon as you said your name, I was like, wait, no, we've got a brain date.
I know you.
So like.
I know, like it was, I just felt like it was Kismet.
(02:04):
Absolutely.
So I remember, I remember speaking to you first exactly the same.
So I joined the Braindate platform, hadn't quite made the connection that it hadn't gonelive to all participants yet.
And I saw your topic and I thought, Ooh, that'll be a great one to talk about.
And then that's when I connected.
(02:26):
And then I remember the evening of the speaker reception.
I remember getting in the lift at the hotel and seeing three of the women in the liftwearing the speaker badges.
I remember that.
Yeah, I remember thinking, my goodness.
Thank goodness these ladies are heading to the same place I'm heading and you know.
(02:47):
And we didn't know where we were going.
It's like the blind leading the blind.
think I knew what floor it was, because I'd arrived a day before, so I'd done a bit ofexploring, but I was just a bit like, where are we going?
And then when we eventually arrived to the event space, and we were registering and wewere getting our t-shirts, I remember we then introduced ourselves and I just had this
(03:10):
deep sense of familiarity and it's made the connection of Braindate and I thought,
At I kind of know someone.
Yeah, that's exactly the same thing I was thinking.
I was like, good.
I don't feel like just the stranger in the strange land, you know, with just like juststanding in a sea of people and not knowing anyone.
So I don't know.
just it just felt like it was meant to be like it just absolutely felt like it was meantto be.
(03:31):
then there was the whole me and my food stuff.
like, you're like, why aren't you eating anything?
Why aren't you putting anything on your plate?
I'm like, there's nothing here I can eat.
So that was all fun.
And then we got to the table and.
that was just a great conversation.
it was, it was a really, for me, it was a really great kickoff.
And so you were, you're the first face that you weren't the first because I met the late,I don't remember the other lady who's name who was in the lift, but I met her and then you
(03:55):
got on.
And so, but you were like the first face I remember because of the name and because we hadthe Braindate.
So speaking of brain dates, let's, let's talk about your, session.
So I, one of the topics that you spoke about for your Braindate session was, I'm going toread this verbatim.
a technology career built from non-technical background.
(04:17):
So let's start there.
Like, what is your background and tell us about your career journey and to your currentrole.
Yeah, sure.
So I at university studied business management marketing and I genuinely believed thatthat was the career that I would end up pursuing.
I thought I consider myself to be quite creative and I enjoyed it.
(04:40):
people leadership side, and I thought actually marketing is really for me.
So I started off, I actually started off leading a sales team.
And that was a stopgap job, straight after graduating, because you you come out and youneed, you know, I didn't want to go home, I wanted to, you know, I was renting and I
(05:02):
needed I needed to pay the bills.
And so I got this job.
And the idea was that I would
continue in the background to apply for graduate roles.
And this was at a time when the market was just starting to get saturated in the UK anywaywith graduates.
And there was a slight shift in the market.
(05:25):
So I'm doing this sales, leading a sales team as a stock gap job.
And I ended up after a few months being seconded onto an IT project.
And it was quite a large scale program of work across the business.
And it really opened my eyes to the vastness and diversity that exists within technology.
(05:47):
think, you know, back in, you know, we're talking 2007, right?
So unless you've studied like something in technology, you probably don't realize all thedifferent roles that exist.
That's true.
Yeah, and so that's the first time that I became exposed to that.
(06:07):
And when the program ended after 18 months, I went back to a version of my old role.
And it then took quite a few years for me to journey back towards tech as an actual rolethat I would choose.
And I guess the backdrop to all of those things is, you know, consider in that time we hadthe global housing crash, the recession.
(06:31):
You know, in that time I went off, I got married, I went and had a child and all thethings that life throws at you in that time.
know, so it took a while, but I eventually then, you know, realized this is where I reallythink I want to head.
yeah, I found my calling.
I joined tech as a business systems analyst.
(06:52):
And that was, that was just over 10 years ago.
And in that time I have progressed from systems analyst.
into program delivery and leadership.
And I guess they're all the latter ones.
They're all fancy titles for saying that I'm responsible for getting things done.
(07:12):
And, you know, most recently, I've moved again into an engineering manager's role.
And that's my way of getting closer to technology solutions and helping me invest in mydevelopment further.
So I guess that that's a little bit about my work background and you know,
It's just really to say, you know, I didn't study technology.
didn't study Computer Science.
(07:34):
I can't code.
I didn't learn to code.
But I've still, consider had a pretty successful career, a large part of it in thetechnology domain.
That is such an important topic because I'm always telling people, people always come tome like, I really want to get into tech because everybody wants to get into tech because
of the money.
And I'm always telling them, you know what?
You're going to pay for it.
(07:55):
Like there's it's it's a lot.
It's stressful.
know, it's it's very difficult.
But, you know, so I'm like, don't get into it for the money.
Get into the thing that you love to do.
So but what I'm always telling people is.
What is the thing that you love?
Like, so I remember us talking to someone who was recently out of college and she wantedto get into tech because of the money, et cetera, et cetera.
And I was like, what, tell me the thing that you love.
(08:16):
And she wanted to, she liked music.
She wanted to work.
I was like, you know what?
They use tech and music.
was like, go after your, your music, you know, pursue that passion and then figure out howtech fits in there.
And then that's how you can make your way into tech.
Don't like everybody thinks that they have to code in order to get into tech.
I'm like, no, I know people who are in HR and tech.
know people who are like.
all kinds of different backgrounds that get into the tech industry.
(08:40):
if you can work for a tech company or you can work in a tech adjacent field and get thatsame money without having to sell your soul to the coding gods.
Ask me how I feel about coding.
So I think that's such an important topic and I'd love to hear how those conversationswent for you.
(09:02):
the at the Grace Hopper celebration.
And let me let me start by asking, was this your first time attending?
It wasn't no.
So I attended virtually in 2021.
You know, we're still very much in in in an out of lockdown at that point.
And then I attended in person in 2022.
That was in an Orlando.
And both times they were opportunities that were provided to me by my employer, largelykind of to thank me, I guess, for the work that I do in the women in tech spaces.
(09:31):
at work and within my teams.
And when I went in 2022, I was really fascinated with the event, if I'm really honest, thediversity of women attending the event, you know, I still don't see that many women or
women of color on an everyday basis.
And so for me, that was like, Whoa, this many women work in tech?
(09:56):
Like, this is, I was
I was inspired and mind blown at the same time.
And the other thing I loved was, you know, because it is such a big attraction for thosepipelines, those female technologists that coming up through university and graduation and
(10:16):
early careers.
I was quite energized by that because I thought, you know, I don't think back when Igraduated in 2006, that was the landscape.
And so I'm really excited about the upcoming talent that's that's about to hit the worldreally.
yeah.
So that was back in that was back in 2022.
And I really enjoyed attending all the talks and learning from others, you know, in thefield, like I say, I don't get exposure to women in technology.
(10:45):
Yeah.
And I think I felt it was at that point that I felt slightly less of an imposter.
And I felt more like I belonged, you know, because I was surrounded by people like me.
And I think, I think for the first time I realized the power in that and the value inthat.
And it was at that point that I decided that I think I'd like to do some speaking eventsand thought to myself, maybe I'll do Grace Hopper one day.
(11:11):
Well, and that's what I was going to ask.
Was this your first time as a speaker?
Grace Hopper.
Grace Hopper, yeah.
It my first time as a speaker at Grace Hopper.
I've previously spoken at other
smaller events.
So last year, I co-led a roundtable workshop at the Karen Brady Women in Tech and BusinessExpo in London.
(11:34):
And I do a lot of speaking at work, kind of I do panel discussions and things like that.
But it's always an area of growth for me.
And it's something that I want to continue to sharpen as a skill set.
(11:59):
So I have to say from a networking perspective, I mentioned this on the previous episodethat I recorded, because I recorded my reactions, immediate reactions to the conference
for the previous episode.
And one of the things I said then, and I just want to say it again here, was I've been tolots of conferences, big and small.
And for me, the Grace Harper celebration was the best networking event.
(12:22):
that I've ever been to in all my career.
And the reason being is because you're just meeting with all these women in tech and theyhad specific things for you to connect with smaller groups of people.
So there was the speaker reception where we met.
For me the next morning there was a reception for Black women in tech.
There was a community lounge for women of color in tech.
(12:43):
There were all the least opportunities to have smaller group conversations in addition tothe braindates.
And so for me,
Like I say, it was the best networking event.
I want to get your thoughts in terms of what were your thoughts about networking at GraceHopper?
Yeah.
So I echo actually, I think it's one of the best conference experiences for me.
(13:03):
I love the experience.
And when I reflect on why, I think the biggest reason was the opportunity to network withothers.
And even as someone who's an introvert, I have to manage my social battery quitecarefully.
I found it quite liberating to speak to new people and learn from others on theirjourneys.
(13:25):
And I think a lot of that was because of the, I don't know if it was deliberate or not,but it's almost like careful consideration to these discussion areas, know, exactly as you
said, like the speaker reception, women of color reception, know, those kind of thingsreally helped.
(13:47):
have more personal conversations and it made it less draining.
I think the highlights for me was the speaker reception and also meeting my colleagues whowork for the US part of my business, learning about their roles.
That was quite interesting.
And then the extension of the conference for me was the other bit that I enjoyed.
And that was the going out for lunch and dinner with new people I met, carrying on theconversations in a non-formal setting.
(14:15):
And I found that those conversations recharged my social battery rather than drain it.
And that was quite interesting as an experience.
And then of course I've walked away with loads of new connections and opportunities toconnect outside of the conference, including yourself.
Yeah, that was my overall experience.
(14:36):
First, I want to say I love the term social battery.
I'm stealing that.
I'm completely stealing that.
had never heard it because that's exactly what it You drain it and then you have torecharge it and you drain.
Like that's exactly what it feels like for me as an introvert.
So A, I'm stealing that.
And then B, I have to agree with you with regard to those conversations actuallyrecharging when they normally would drain because I talked about, again, I talked about
(14:57):
this in the previous episode is that dinner that we went to, I was like, normally I wouldhave expected by the time I got back to my hotel room, I would have just like,
dead because I was just completely drained.
But it was maybe, it was good food and I wasn't starving for once, but also it was just agood conversation.
We were laughing, we were joking, we were having fun.
We talked about how horrible I am at taking selfies.
(15:20):
That was just very much a recharging event or experience.
So yeah, I agree with that 100%.
So now tell me, how did those brain dates go?
Like I want to know more about your overall Grace Hopper experience.
So like I said, I think the topic of being in tech and not having a tech background isimportant, but I know you talked about some other things as well.
(15:46):
I think one of them was like what you would tell yourself five, like was it, was somethingabout five years ago, tell me what the topic was.
I'm forgetting exactly what it was.
It was, what would you,
what would you tell yourself if you could go back five years?
That's what it was.
That's what it was.
But I mean, in general, was gonna say in general, I just want to know like overall whatyour experience was.
(16:10):
You know, it was, it was really good.
Like I enjoyed connecting with people and you know, for me, it was having an opendiscussion with people rather than me talking at people.
And I think that's where the power lay for me.
I think it's acknowledging that yes, I have experience.
And yes, I've worked with people for a number of years in tech that by no means makes methe expert.
(16:34):
And so whilst I have a, I think I have some stuff to share.
Like that is not the end point.
And I feel like I learned so much from having these brain dates, having these opendiscussions.
Well, I think I remember you telling me as well that
you'd applied previously to do a different type of session and that didn't get accepted.
(16:59):
So tell me that sort of story again, again, for the listeners, just to, how did you get tothe point where you were doing the Braindate sessions?
Because I think you applied to do a different type of session and just sort of tell usabout that.
did, yes.
And again, this was born from my experience of attending in person in 2022.
So in 2023, I, and this was again, because I was a little bit nervous about speaking.
(17:23):
And I thought, I think I just need to step into those spaces and embrace.
So in 2023, I put in for a couple of talks again with my colleague.
It's one of my colleagues that I respect.
She's a senior leader in technology.
I think inside I was thinking, you know, safety in numbers.
It will take the heat off me.
And, know, we put in for a couple of talks and unfortunately we got rejected.
(17:47):
actually, as it turned out, those talks that we prepared, you know, we did them in otherplaces and that was okay.
But this year we tried again for a couple of joint talks.
And then she encouraged me to go for a solo one.
And it was the format of the brain date that really stuck out to me as a way that I canhave impact with others.
(18:07):
Again, like I touched on it by having open discussion.
Yeah, I think there's more power in that because
it's not just me giving, it's like giving information, but it's, can ask questions andreally help someone, almost a little bit like mentoring, right?
It's like really helping someone pull on the threads of their own thoughts and addingcolor to some broad ideas they may have and kind of jumping in with your experience.
(18:34):
so the solo topic was on careers.
And I've always been an advocate for really thinking about your skill set and
being open to moving around in order to drive your own success and your own development.
you know, careers aren't linear after all, you know, and as women and women of color,especially, I believe that we have a lot of depth of experiences to our the way in which
(18:59):
we approach problem solving.
And, you know, I don't think we should box ourselves into one career outcome.
And as you can tell from my own career journey, right,
Yeah, I guess all this to say that I thought it would be a useful topic to discuss andpull the thread on and I was really lucky that I got selected.
(19:21):
I love it.
I love it.
I got to tell you.
So what appealed to me about Brain is the same thing in terms of having the discussion.
My background from a speaking perspective is a little bit different.
actually, when I was in high school, studied public speaking.
And then when I was in college, I was a public speaking teaching assistant.
So like I've been doing public speaking or, public speaking has been a part of mybackground for a while.
(19:43):
Although we talked about this during the conference about how much of an introvert we bothwere or are.
I am.
Because of my, you know, my introvert tendencies, public speaking was, I don't know, Idon't even know why I studied it, but it was a challenge for me.
It got to the point where I would walk up on stage in front of a lectern and I wouldbasically blackout.
(20:06):
and not remember anything that I said until I, and then I would walk off the stage andpeople would go, that was great.
I'm like, have no idea what I just said.
Like that was public speaking for me.
Like it was the idea that all these people were looking at me and listening to me was justlike so overwhelming that I would just sort of like sort of blackout.
again, apparently I would do an amazing job, but, but I just was never like fully present.
(20:28):
And then later, you know, I into consulting when I worked at Oracle and then just, youknow,
over time had to do it more and more to the point where it just became natural for me.
That's why I present a lot of people think I'm an extrovert.
I present as an extrovert because I'm just used to speaking to customers and clients andthings like that.
But also more recently, so I also was a, a software engineering professor.
So I'm like talking to my students and I'm lecturing to my students and things like that.
(20:52):
And more recently, my last corporate gig, was a, a customer trainer.
So that was, it's just always me just like.
Dumping knowledge, not to say dumping, know, trying to make sure that people are gettingup to speed on the platform or whatnot, but I was always talking at people, talking at
people, talking at people.
So when I saw the different types of sessions that you could do, Braindate really appealedto me because I was like, finally a discussion, you know, like a two-way conversation.
(21:17):
So for me, it was an escape from the thing that I always do, which is just always justtalking at people and talking at people and just an opportunity to have a discussion.
And I just thought it was so wonderful just to have like small groups.
I mean, we talked about this that, you know, turns out maybe they're a little bit toosmall and maybe should be a little bit expanded because there was like the whole super
group thing.
anyway, but I love the idea of doing the small groups.
(21:40):
And by the way, thank you for joining me for one of my sessions.
So you, helped, you co-hosted one of my sessions with me, which was awesome because wewere like running late, trying to get there and then trying to set up the table and
everything.
So that was great.
So I just really, really appreciated the, the one-on-one and the discussion.
And I found that my top, one of my topics was about, was, I just put it out there, similarto something you said, like there were these open topics that you could just grab once.
(22:04):
Like you had your set topic that you got approved for, but then there were these opentopics.
You could just grab one and there was one, I can't remember exactly what it was originallymentioned, what the original title was, but I changed it a little bit to be Women of
Color (22:16):
Let's talk about strategies for success.
And that's the one I got the most number of like, you know, one of people wanting to,originally it was going to be a one-on-one.
I was when I had like, after I had like 30 one-on-one invites, I was like, I can't dothis.
I was like, I got to figure out a different way to do this.
That's when I was able to figure out that you could do the super group.
And I did the two 15 person groups and all of that.
But I say all that to say that to your point, when you were talking about just going tothis conference and seeing not only all these women in tech, but all these women of color
(22:44):
in tech, you know, and, and, you know, like just.
being like, wow, I'm not the only one.
And here's the thing.
I met so many students and I would ask if they were a woman of color, I would ask them, soI'm curious how many other women of color are in your program?
Like, what are you studying?
Computer Science or digital this or that, this, that, the other.
And I would say, I'm curious how many other women of color are in your program.
And inevitably they would all say, it's just me or just me and one other, you know?
(23:07):
And I'm like, are you kidding me?
Like after, like, again, I've been in this field for 30 years.
like, after 30 years, they're still the same.
You know, like I started when I was two, by the way, for the audience.
I'm very young.
But no, like, but I'm like, after all these years, I would think that it would bedifferent.
So I want to talk about that.
just want to remember when you and I were chatting, which was one of the casualconversations we were having.
(23:29):
And we've had several conversations about being a woman of color in tech.
And I don't if you remember this, but you told me about the pressure that you feel to stayin your current role because you want women, especially women of color, to see someone
that looks like you in a leadership role.
And I completely get that because that's one of the reasons why I'm still doing thisstuff.
But a part of me feels like that's just an unfair burden for you or I to carry.
(23:52):
I just wanted to, know, do you mind just sharing your thoughts on that for the listeners?
Yeah, it's a really interesting one, isn't it?
So I've had so many moments in my career where I've looked up and not seen anyone thatlooks like me.
And that moment when you realize the importance of representation and look around,
And, you know, like being really honest, there have been moments where it makes you lookaround and wonder what it could be like in another organization or on another career track
(24:23):
or maybe even in you know, in another country, you altogether.
But the thing that I also realized is imagine how others in the organization must feel.
And maybe if they look up and see me, like, how do they feel about that?
And
If I can break down some barriers along the way, maybe I could just inspire one person tochase the climb or to keep on going, then that could be a good thing.
(24:50):
And I guess what I'm trying to say is it's often difficult and it can be really exhaustingand feel like a burden to carry that.
But I also feel that as a leader, I've now got a platform, I suppose.
And if I don't use it, then no one else will.
(25:10):
you know, I do agree on the burden, but I think, I think sometimes that's what we have tocarry for the next generation of people who look like us.
And I mean, did you ever feel that way?
Like in your journey through, through an early version of tech, you know, because Iunderstand that tech was probably a completely different makeup back then.
(25:30):
Like, how did you navigate being the first, and how were you aware of, of your position ofothers looking up?
That's interesting.
That's a good question.
need to think.
So I think that I didn't think about it because I was busy fighting.
was busy fighting.
What I mean by that is so, okay, I've told this.
(25:52):
think I can't remember if I've told this story on the podcast before.
If I did, then listeners, you'll hear it again.
So when I started, I started in high school.
And I like my first job ever was doing Fortran programming for General Motors in Michigan.
And it was just me and my boss.
It was a guy named Ashok Deshpande And it was just us.
(26:12):
And he left to go back to India for a visit for a month at the end of our project.
And he just left me to do the pre- this is one of the reasons I did public speaking, letme do the presentation to these like all like older middle-aged white men, you know, at
the end of the project.
I'm 15 years old.
like, dude, are you kidding me?
Are you leaving me to do this on my own?
(26:33):
So, so I, I, I mentioned that to say that I started very early and I got, you know, likethrown in the deep end very early.
So by the time that I like fast forward through high school and undergrad and grad school,by the time I graduated with my master's degree in Computer Science, I'd been doing it for
a long time and I felt very comfortable.
But to your point, I was the first, I was the only woman in the, in the, you know, on theteam.
(26:55):
And I was the only
person of color on the team.
And this was because I tell people this all the time, for the first 10 years of my career,I only worked with middle-aged white men.
That was it.
There were no people of color, like male or female, and there were no women.
So I was busy just sort of fighting to represent that, hey, women and people of color canbe in this space too.
(27:17):
So I was just busy trying to make sure that I was representing for everybody, which again,talk about burden, feeling that burden on your shoulders.
so I wasn't, I don't even think I thought about the fact that I was, I was doing that, butI don't think I thought about the fact that I was the first.
I was just, and people would question my right to be in the room.
And this is why, this is one of the reasons why, you know, one of my topics was aboutimposter syndrome.
(27:41):
The thing that I said to the group is that I don't feel it anymore.
Like, because I dare anybody to question my right to be in the room after all these yearsand all the things that I've done.
like, please, are you kidding me?
Like, like I dare anybody to question, you know, my, my right to be in the room.
I mean, they're having said that there is occasional times when I'm doing a new role, likewhen I started working at my last corporate gig, which they did, they did a performance
(28:07):
monitoring and all this backend stuff, stuff that I hadn't done before.
And so, and then I was like, wait a minute, I don't know this.
So, you know, occasionally if I'm in a new role or in a new area, I go, wait a minute, Idon't know if I belong here, you know, it only lasts for like a second.
so to your point though, like, how did I navigate that?
Like say, I was just busy surviving.
I don't think that I thought about it.
(28:28):
And it wasn't until later, I'll tell you when it occurred to me, okay, now I've got tofigure out the next generation.
It was when I became a software engineering professor.
So that was my first attempt at retirement.
That was my my encore career was I was going to be this, I was going to be a collegeprofessor, which I was.
And I was looking out at my, most of my, I taught upper, like upper level, like juniors,and seniors and people who were about to graduate.
(28:53):
But I did have one course, which was Professional Practices and Ethics that taught to thesecond years.
So that was a slightly bigger, the upper level courses were smaller, but the second yearswere those big courses, which, you know, the big lecture hall or whatever.
And I would look out at this lecture hall and I'm like, where are the women?
Where are the women of color?
I was like, why is this still a thing?
(29:13):
Like, I was like, this just doesn't make any sense to me.
And that's what I started.
I got very passionate about it.
I started trying to like reach out to like,
girls groups and like, you Girls Inc and Girls Who Code and things like that, because Iwas like, there needs to be more women of color in tech.
And in my last, my last corporate gig, and again, this I know I've talked about too manytimes on the podcast before, but in my last corporate gig, it was the first time in my
(29:39):
entire career that I worked with a group, you know, really good DE &I community, and therewere other women of color and...
my mentor, Gwen Hurd, well, there were two, Stacy Simmons and Gwen Hurd, but Gwen Hurd wasa Black woman who reached out to me my first week on the job and said, Hey, let me show
you how to do this.
And then, she did the same thing.
And I asked her later, actually on this podcast and the podcast episode, I was like, thatwas so amazing that you did that for me.
(30:02):
You basically taught me how to do my job, but I was like, why did you reach out to me?
And she said, because I would.
I was so shocked to see another woman of color.
was just so excited.
was like, yay, let me be her friend.
Let me teach her how to do her job.
And it's sad that we all feel that way.
We are all just like, they feel like we're the only one and we see another person.
We're like, wow.
(30:23):
And like you say, we go to these conferences and we're like, wait a minute, it's not justme.
So yeah, I rambled on quite a bit there in answer to your question.
I don't even remember the...
the original question that you asked, other than, you know, how did I navigate being thefirst?
There was something else you asked me in there too, but that's when I got passionate abouthelping others because I'm like, I'm planning to retire again soon.
(30:46):
You know, I'm like some, soon I hope to retire and I just want to leave the space a littlebit better than I found it.
If that makes sense.
does make sense.
It does make sense.
That's really cool.
But I do think that it's a little bit of an unfair burden on us, but you know, we do whatwe have, we do what we must.
We do.
So let me ask you this.
So let me ask you one more question on that.
(31:08):
What do you think is the answer?
How do we fix it?
I mean, not that it's our job to fix it, but how does it get fixed?
That's a better way to ask the question.
How does it get fixed over time?
I mean, not tomorrow, but over time.
I think I see it as two facets really.
One is...
thinking about the pipeline and that goes right the way down to children at school,children at preschool, know, like moving away from giving our young females dolls to play
(31:41):
with, know, moving away from those stereotypes and really encouraging them to think aboutcareers that they wouldn't otherwise be exposed to.
I think it starts really young.
I think
There's some statistics, I can't remember off the top of my head, but there's somestatistics that suggest that girls, when they hit the teenage years, they drop off, their
(32:04):
interest in the STEM subjects completely drops off.
Like, why is that?
And what can we do in those spaces to help pull them back on track?
I think it...
Yeah, I think the evidence is like really clear that they're like, girls can be reallyinto STEM.
(32:24):
pre teenage.
So something must happen there.
And I don't know if that's hormonal.
don't know.
You know, I don't know the rest of the context there.
But I think that's one area because I think then that feeds the pipeline.
And, know, what I spoke about earlier, which is seeing all these young graduates andinterns coming through is really great.
I think we need more of that.
And that starts earlier.
(32:46):
And then the other aspect for me is reminding women
who already have careers who are later in their careers, mid and senior level, likereminding them that they can work in technology.
You know, if they are great communicators, great, you know, have great organisationalskills, you know, have the ability to plan, you know, work, you know, go deep and broad on
(33:11):
projects and programme management and, you know, service, service transition and, youknow, technology operations.
There's so many different fields and if they've got the core skills for any of thesethings, then they should absolutely consider a career in tech.
Doing full circle on my original point, like you don't have to code and you don't have tobe, I think you have to have a thirst for learning and engaging in technology.
(33:43):
And I think if you've got those things along with some core skills.
then you can absolutely have a Korean tech.
So I think there's two spheres of influence there.
One is the very, very, very young, and then one is these awesome women who do a lot ofawesome things every day and bringing them over.
I do think that in the middle there, in the post, after preteen and before ending ofcollege, I think in that space, I think it's societal.
(34:11):
It's the perception of the,
who is a tech person and when I say that I'm thinking the stereotypical tech bro, I thinkthat that is a component of it as well as the stigma.
remember when I was in undergrad, I would go out to parties and bars with my girlfriendsand nobody would talk to, I always joke like nobody would talk to me, but what would
(34:35):
happen is if a guy approached me and they asked me what I was studying and I saidComputer Science, they,
completely lose interest in walk away.
So I wonder like how much of it is that too?
Like you don't want to be that, that, she's, she's, she's different.
She's other, she's not a normal girl, you know, like, you know, that, that sort of thing.
(34:56):
I wonder how much of it is societal and the stigma and the perception of what a techperson is per se.
so yeah, we, I think there's a couple of things that need to be fixed there, but I thinkto your point too, that just having,
being there so that people have someone to look towards.
I think that's important.
That was what was so inspiring for me, circling back to Grace Hopper Celebration, but wasso inspiring for me at the conference was, first of all, I was not expecting the
(35:25):
conference to be so many students.
I think it was like 80%.
I don't know.
it was, there was a lot of the student component was big.
And so I wasn't expecting to meet quite so many students and just, they were inspired byme and I was just inspired to see them in the field.
So I was like, okay, you know what, maybe I do.
like I say, you get weary, you know, over the years and, know, and I'm like, I said, I'mworking towards retirement, but I'm like, you know what?
(35:50):
I want to be here so that they have this to look forward to.
Like, look, you can, you can have a long career in tech and see, I did it.
So, you know, that was inspirational for me as you know, part of the conference.
So that's, that was my big takeaway is that there's hope for the future.
I don't know.
And then of course, you know, it's funny because you were talking about just what I'mgonna wrap it up.
(36:11):
But you were talking about how when you were reaching out to your colleague and you werelike there's safety in numbers in terms of the speaking.
But we talked about possibly collaborating.
So we're back to that safety of numbers, right?
So we talked about a possible collaboration for next time.
So we got to work on that too, so that, you know, we get back there and then, you know, wecan continue the conversation and we can continue to be the thing that.
(36:34):
these younger ladies can look up to or look forward to, you know, have this, this longcareer in tech.
Absolutely.
I can't wait.
I'm, I'm like, I've got so many ideas for things that we could do together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sure it'll be ongoing conversation.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, Kaj, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and for sharing your experiencewith the listeners.
(36:54):
I really appreciate it.
No, thank you.
This has been great.
And thanks so much for having me.
I mean, I could, I could actually talk about this topic all day long.
I know.
Cause we spent four days talking about it, right?
At the conference.
Cause we were kind of like conference buddies.
You know how you get, go to a conference and there's that person you're like, well let'sdo this.
(37:15):
And then we're going to, I'm to go to this session.
Like we became conference buddies, which was so awesome.
So I'm so happy that we met on day one.
was, you know, it was meant to be, it was, it's for the best.
And
We're going to, like I we've got plenty of things that we're going to do together goingforward.
So this is going to be awesome.
Well, you're welcome.
You're welcome.
Well, to my listeners, I want to say thank you for listening.
(37:36):
And hopefully you, you heard what we had to say about, know, just sort of thinking aboutif you are a person who is wanting to get in tech and you don't have a tech background,
that there are some things that you can do, or even if you are in tech, just know thatyou're not, you're a woman of color.
You're not the only one.
There's plenty of us out there.
There's plenty of ways that you can.
meet and network with other women of color.
(37:57):
So again, thank you for listening.
If you have questions, I'd love to hear your questions.
You can give us a call or send us a text.
Leave us a voicemail at 404-425-9862.
You can follow us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
You can subscribe to our newsletter to get our show notes.
And that is subscribe.imperfectgenius.com.
And if you want to see the video version of this episode and have other bonus content orconnect with other women of color in tech, you can go to community.imperfectgenius.com.
(38:23):
And until next time, I'm Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps Black women thrive by providingtechnical advice on effectively navigating the business development journey and offers
advice to all women on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Today, I'm chatting with Kaj Bansal.
Kaj is a software engineering manager who has worked for 10 years in tech of her 18-yearcareer, is passionate about mentoring others and supporting the growth in women of color.
(00:36):
Kaj, welcome to the podcast.
Hey, thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this great series.
thank you.
I'm glad you think it's great.
And I thank you so much for accepting.
So I want to just talk about, you know, for the listeners, just let them know how we knoweach other.
We met on day one of the Grace Hopper celebration in Philadelphia.
(00:56):
And I got to say, like, it felt like kismet to me.
So like, we were both speakers.
And so because of that, we had early access to the Braindate platform, which I didn't.
At the time, I did not understand that the only people on the platform were just speakers.
So I was getting invites and I was like, I didn't realize it was just speakers.
And I think you were like one of the first, if not the first, you were like one of thefirst people to reach out to me to do a one-on-one brain date.
(01:19):
And so I knew your name from that.
And then it was like, I think a week later or so that they opened up the brain dateplatform for all participants.
And all of a sudden I was getting one-on-one invites like one every two minutes and itwas, they were just flooding in.
And I was like,
What is happening right now?
Like I was completely overwhelmed.
I had to like hide my brain date so that people couldn't find me because I was completelyoverwhelmed.
(01:41):
And so for those reasons though, that's why I knew your name because we had connectedearly on.
And then it was outside of the speaker reception.
We were going to the speaker reception on day one and it was outside of the speakerreception that we actually, I think we'd been chatting before, but we actually introduced
ourselves.
And as soon as you said your name, I was like, wait, no, we've got a brain date.
I know you.
So like.
I know, like it was, I just felt like it was Kismet.
(02:04):
Absolutely.
So I remember, I remember speaking to you first exactly the same.
So I joined the Braindate platform, hadn't quite made the connection that it hadn't gonelive to all participants yet.
And I saw your topic and I thought, Ooh, that'll be a great one to talk about.
And then that's when I connected.
(02:26):
And then I remember the evening of the speaker reception.
I remember getting in the lift at the hotel and seeing three of the women in the liftwearing the speaker badges.
I remember that.
Yeah, I remember thinking, my goodness.
Thank goodness these ladies are heading to the same place I'm heading and you know.
(02:47):
And we didn't know where we were going.
It's like the blind leading the blind.
think I knew what floor it was, because I'd arrived a day before, so I'd done a bit ofexploring, but I was just a bit like, where are we going?
And then when we eventually arrived to the event space, and we were registering and wewere getting our t-shirts, I remember we then introduced ourselves and I just had this
(03:10):
deep sense of familiarity and it's made the connection of Braindate and I thought,
At I kind of know someone.
Yeah, that's exactly the same thing I was thinking.
I was like, good.
I don't feel like just the stranger in the strange land, you know, with just like juststanding in a sea of people and not knowing anyone.
So I don't know.
just it just felt like it was meant to be like it just absolutely felt like it was meantto be.
(03:31):
then there was the whole me and my food stuff.
like, you're like, why aren't you eating anything?
Why aren't you putting anything on your plate?
I'm like, there's nothing here I can eat.
So that was all fun.
And then we got to the table and.
that was just a great conversation.
it was, it was a really, for me, it was a really great kickoff.
And so you were, you're the first face that you weren't the first because I met the late,I don't remember the other lady who's name who was in the lift, but I met her and then you
(03:55):
got on.
And so, but you were like the first face I remember because of the name and because we hadthe Braindate.
So speaking of brain dates, let's, let's talk about your, session.
So I, one of the topics that you spoke about for your Braindate session was, I'm going toread this verbatim.
a technology career built from non-technical background.
(04:17):
So let's start there.
Like, what is your background and tell us about your career journey and to your currentrole.
Yeah, sure.
So I at university studied business management marketing and I genuinely believed thatthat was the career that I would end up pursuing.
I thought I consider myself to be quite creative and I enjoyed it.
(04:40):
people leadership side, and I thought actually marketing is really for me.
So I started off, I actually started off leading a sales team.
And that was a stopgap job, straight after graduating, because you you come out and youneed, you know, I didn't want to go home, I wanted to, you know, I was renting and I
(05:02):
needed I needed to pay the bills.
And so I got this job.
And the idea was that I would
continue in the background to apply for graduate roles.
And this was at a time when the market was just starting to get saturated in the UK anywaywith graduates.
And there was a slight shift in the market.
(05:25):
So I'm doing this sales, leading a sales team as a stock gap job.
And I ended up after a few months being seconded onto an IT project.
And it was quite a large scale program of work across the business.
And it really opened my eyes to the vastness and diversity that exists within technology.
(05:47):
think, you know, back in, you know, we're talking 2007, right?
So unless you've studied like something in technology, you probably don't realize all thedifferent roles that exist.
That's true.
Yeah, and so that's the first time that I became exposed to that.
(06:07):
And when the program ended after 18 months, I went back to a version of my old role.
And it then took quite a few years for me to journey back towards tech as an actual rolethat I would choose.
And I guess the backdrop to all of those things is, you know, consider in that time we hadthe global housing crash, the recession.
(06:31):
You know, in that time I went off, I got married, I went and had a child and all thethings that life throws at you in that time.
know, so it took a while, but I eventually then, you know, realized this is where I reallythink I want to head.
yeah, I found my calling.
I joined tech as a business systems analyst.
(06:52):
And that was, that was just over 10 years ago.
And in that time I have progressed from systems analyst.
into program delivery and leadership.
And I guess they're all the latter ones.
They're all fancy titles for saying that I'm responsible for getting things done.
(07:12):
And, you know, most recently, I've moved again into an engineering manager's role.
And that's my way of getting closer to technology solutions and helping me invest in mydevelopment further.
So I guess that that's a little bit about my work background and you know,
It's just really to say, you know, I didn't study technology.
didn't study Computer Science.
(07:34):
I can't code.
I didn't learn to code.
But I've still, consider had a pretty successful career, a large part of it in thetechnology domain.
That is such an important topic because I'm always telling people, people always come tome like, I really want to get into tech because everybody wants to get into tech because
of the money.
And I'm always telling them, you know what?
You're going to pay for it.
(07:55):
Like there's it's it's a lot.
It's stressful.
know, it's it's very difficult.
But, you know, so I'm like, don't get into it for the money.
Get into the thing that you love to do.
So but what I'm always telling people is.
What is the thing that you love?
Like, so I remember us talking to someone who was recently out of college and she wantedto get into tech because of the money, et cetera, et cetera.
And I was like, what, tell me the thing that you love.
(08:16):
And she wanted to, she liked music.
She wanted to work.
I was like, you know what?
They use tech and music.
was like, go after your, your music, you know, pursue that passion and then figure out howtech fits in there.
And then that's how you can make your way into tech.
Don't like everybody thinks that they have to code in order to get into tech.
I'm like, no, I know people who are in HR and tech.
know people who are like.
all kinds of different backgrounds that get into the tech industry.
(08:40):
if you can work for a tech company or you can work in a tech adjacent field and get thatsame money without having to sell your soul to the coding gods.
Ask me how I feel about coding.
So I think that's such an important topic and I'd love to hear how those conversationswent for you.
(09:02):
the at the Grace Hopper celebration.
And let me let me start by asking, was this your first time attending?
It wasn't no.
So I attended virtually in 2021.
You know, we're still very much in in in an out of lockdown at that point.
And then I attended in person in 2022.
That was in an Orlando.
And both times they were opportunities that were provided to me by my employer, largelykind of to thank me, I guess, for the work that I do in the women in tech spaces.
(09:31):
at work and within my teams.
And when I went in 2022, I was really fascinated with the event, if I'm really honest, thediversity of women attending the event, you know, I still don't see that many women or
women of color on an everyday basis.
And so for me, that was like, Whoa, this many women work in tech?
(09:56):
Like, this is, I was
I was inspired and mind blown at the same time.
And the other thing I loved was, you know, because it is such a big attraction for thosepipelines, those female technologists that coming up through university and graduation and
(10:16):
early careers.
I was quite energized by that because I thought, you know, I don't think back when Igraduated in 2006, that was the landscape.
And so I'm really excited about the upcoming talent that's that's about to hit the worldreally.
yeah.
So that was back in that was back in 2022.
And I really enjoyed attending all the talks and learning from others, you know, in thefield, like I say, I don't get exposure to women in technology.
(10:45):
Yeah.
And I think I felt it was at that point that I felt slightly less of an imposter.
And I felt more like I belonged, you know, because I was surrounded by people like me.
And I think, I think for the first time I realized the power in that and the value inthat.
And it was at that point that I decided that I think I'd like to do some speaking eventsand thought to myself, maybe I'll do Grace Hopper one day.
(11:11):
Well, and that's what I was going to ask.
Was this your first time as a speaker?
Grace Hopper.
Grace Hopper, yeah.
It my first time as a speaker at Grace Hopper.
I've previously spoken at other
smaller events.
So last year, I co-led a roundtable workshop at the Karen Brady Women in Tech and BusinessExpo in London.
(11:34):
And I do a lot of speaking at work, kind of I do panel discussions and things like that.
But it's always an area of growth for me.
And it's something that I want to continue to sharpen as a skill set.
(11:59):
So I have to say from a networking perspective, I mentioned this on the previous episodethat I recorded, because I recorded my reactions, immediate reactions to the conference
for the previous episode.
And one of the things I said then, and I just want to say it again here, was I've been tolots of conferences, big and small.
And for me, the Grace Harper celebration was the best networking event.
(12:22):
that I've ever been to in all my career.
And the reason being is because you're just meeting with all these women in tech and theyhad specific things for you to connect with smaller groups of people.
So there was the speaker reception where we met.
For me the next morning there was a reception for Black women in tech.
There was a community lounge for women of color in tech.
(12:43):
There were all the least opportunities to have smaller group conversations in addition tothe braindates.
And so for me,
Like I say, it was the best networking event.
I want to get your thoughts in terms of what were your thoughts about networking at GraceHopper?
Yeah.
So I echo actually, I think it's one of the best conference experiences for me.
(13:03):
I love the experience.
And when I reflect on why, I think the biggest reason was the opportunity to network withothers.
And even as someone who's an introvert, I have to manage my social battery quitecarefully.
I found it quite liberating to speak to new people and learn from others on theirjourneys.
(13:25):
And I think a lot of that was because of the, I don't know if it was deliberate or not,but it's almost like careful consideration to these discussion areas, know, exactly as you
said, like the speaker reception, women of color reception, know, those kind of thingsreally helped.
(13:47):
have more personal conversations and it made it less draining.
I think the highlights for me was the speaker reception and also meeting my colleagues whowork for the US part of my business, learning about their roles.
That was quite interesting.
And then the extension of the conference for me was the other bit that I enjoyed.
And that was the going out for lunch and dinner with new people I met, carrying on theconversations in a non-formal setting.
(14:15):
And I found that those conversations recharged my social battery rather than drain it.
And that was quite interesting as an experience.
And then of course I've walked away with loads of new connections and opportunities toconnect outside of the conference, including yourself.
Yeah, that was my overall experience.
(14:36):
First, I want to say I love the term social battery.
I'm stealing that.
I'm completely stealing that.
had never heard it because that's exactly what it You drain it and then you have torecharge it and you drain.
Like that's exactly what it feels like for me as an introvert.
So A, I'm stealing that.
And then B, I have to agree with you with regard to those conversations actuallyrecharging when they normally would drain because I talked about, again, I talked about
(14:57):
this in the previous episode is that dinner that we went to, I was like, normally I wouldhave expected by the time I got back to my hotel room, I would have just like,
dead because I was just completely drained.
But it was maybe, it was good food and I wasn't starving for once, but also it was just agood conversation.
We were laughing, we were joking, we were having fun.
We talked about how horrible I am at taking selfies.
(15:20):
That was just very much a recharging event or experience.
So yeah, I agree with that 100%.
So now tell me, how did those brain dates go?
Like I want to know more about your overall Grace Hopper experience.
So like I said, I think the topic of being in tech and not having a tech background isimportant, but I know you talked about some other things as well.
(15:46):
I think one of them was like what you would tell yourself five, like was it, was somethingabout five years ago, tell me what the topic was.
I'm forgetting exactly what it was.
It was, what would you,
what would you tell yourself if you could go back five years?
That's what it was.
That's what it was.
But I mean, in general, was gonna say in general, I just want to know like overall whatyour experience was.
(16:10):
You know, it was, it was really good.
Like I enjoyed connecting with people and you know, for me, it was having an opendiscussion with people rather than me talking at people.
And I think that's where the power lay for me.
I think it's acknowledging that yes, I have experience.
And yes, I've worked with people for a number of years in tech that by no means makes methe expert.
(16:34):
And so whilst I have a, I think I have some stuff to share.
Like that is not the end point.
And I feel like I learned so much from having these brain dates, having these opendiscussions.
Well, I think I remember you telling me as well that
you'd applied previously to do a different type of session and that didn't get accepted.
(16:59):
So tell me that sort of story again, again, for the listeners, just to, how did you get tothe point where you were doing the Braindate sessions?
Because I think you applied to do a different type of session and just sort of tell usabout that.
did, yes.
And again, this was born from my experience of attending in person in 2022.
So in 2023, I, and this was again, because I was a little bit nervous about speaking.
(17:23):
And I thought, I think I just need to step into those spaces and embrace.
So in 2023, I put in for a couple of talks again with my colleague.
It's one of my colleagues that I respect.
She's a senior leader in technology.
I think inside I was thinking, you know, safety in numbers.
It will take the heat off me.
And, know, we put in for a couple of talks and unfortunately we got rejected.
(17:47):
actually, as it turned out, those talks that we prepared, you know, we did them in otherplaces and that was okay.
But this year we tried again for a couple of joint talks.
And then she encouraged me to go for a solo one.
And it was the format of the brain date that really stuck out to me as a way that I canhave impact with others.
(18:07):
Again, like I touched on it by having open discussion.
Yeah, I think there's more power in that because
it's not just me giving, it's like giving information, but it's, can ask questions andreally help someone, almost a little bit like mentoring, right?
It's like really helping someone pull on the threads of their own thoughts and addingcolor to some broad ideas they may have and kind of jumping in with your experience.
(18:34):
so the solo topic was on careers.
And I've always been an advocate for really thinking about your skill set and
being open to moving around in order to drive your own success and your own development.
you know, careers aren't linear after all, you know, and as women and women of color,especially, I believe that we have a lot of depth of experiences to our the way in which
(18:59):
we approach problem solving.
And, you know, I don't think we should box ourselves into one career outcome.
And as you can tell from my own career journey, right,
Yeah, I guess all this to say that I thought it would be a useful topic to discuss andpull the thread on and I was really lucky that I got selected.
(19:21):
I love it.
I love it.
I got to tell you.
So what appealed to me about Brain is the same thing in terms of having the discussion.
My background from a speaking perspective is a little bit different.
actually, when I was in high school, studied public speaking.
And then when I was in college, I was a public speaking teaching assistant.
So like I've been doing public speaking or, public speaking has been a part of mybackground for a while.
(19:43):
Although we talked about this during the conference about how much of an introvert we bothwere or are.
I am.
Because of my, you know, my introvert tendencies, public speaking was, I don't know, Idon't even know why I studied it, but it was a challenge for me.
It got to the point where I would walk up on stage in front of a lectern and I wouldbasically blackout.
(20:06):
and not remember anything that I said until I, and then I would walk off the stage andpeople would go, that was great.
I'm like, have no idea what I just said.
Like that was public speaking for me.
Like it was the idea that all these people were looking at me and listening to me was justlike so overwhelming that I would just sort of like sort of blackout.
again, apparently I would do an amazing job, but, but I just was never like fully present.
(20:28):
And then later, you know, I into consulting when I worked at Oracle and then just, youknow,
over time had to do it more and more to the point where it just became natural for me.
That's why I present a lot of people think I'm an extrovert.
I present as an extrovert because I'm just used to speaking to customers and clients andthings like that.
But also more recently, so I also was a, a software engineering professor.
So I'm like talking to my students and I'm lecturing to my students and things like that.
(20:52):
And more recently, my last corporate gig, was a, a customer trainer.
So that was, it's just always me just like.
Dumping knowledge, not to say dumping, know, trying to make sure that people are gettingup to speed on the platform or whatnot, but I was always talking at people, talking at
people, talking at people.
So when I saw the different types of sessions that you could do, Braindate really appealedto me because I was like, finally a discussion, you know, like a two-way conversation.
(21:17):
So for me, it was an escape from the thing that I always do, which is just always justtalking at people and talking at people and just an opportunity to have a discussion.
And I just thought it was so wonderful just to have like small groups.
I mean, we talked about this that, you know, turns out maybe they're a little bit toosmall and maybe should be a little bit expanded because there was like the whole super
group thing.
anyway, but I love the idea of doing the small groups.
(21:40):
And by the way, thank you for joining me for one of my sessions.
So you, helped, you co-hosted one of my sessions with me, which was awesome because wewere like running late, trying to get there and then trying to set up the table and
everything.
So that was great.
So I just really, really appreciated the, the one-on-one and the discussion.
And I found that my top, one of my topics was about, was, I just put it out there, similarto something you said, like there were these open topics that you could just grab once.
(22:04):
Like you had your set topic that you got approved for, but then there were these opentopics.
You could just grab one and there was one, I can't remember exactly what it was originallymentioned, what the original title was, but I changed it a little bit to be Women of
Color (22:16):
Let's talk about strategies for success.
And that's the one I got the most number of like, you know, one of people wanting to,originally it was going to be a one-on-one.
I was when I had like, after I had like 30 one-on-one invites, I was like, I can't dothis.
I was like, I got to figure out a different way to do this.
That's when I was able to figure out that you could do the super group.
And I did the two 15 person groups and all of that.
But I say all that to say that to your point, when you were talking about just going tothis conference and seeing not only all these women in tech, but all these women of color
(22:44):
in tech, you know, and, and, you know, like just.
being like, wow, I'm not the only one.
And here's the thing.
I met so many students and I would ask if they were a woman of color, I would ask them, soI'm curious how many other women of color are in your program?
Like, what are you studying?
Computer Science or digital this or that, this, that, the other.
And I would say, I'm curious how many other women of color are in your program.
And inevitably they would all say, it's just me or just me and one other, you know?
(23:07):
And I'm like, are you kidding me?
Like after, like, again, I've been in this field for 30 years.
like, after 30 years, they're still the same.
You know, like I started when I was two, by the way, for the audience.
I'm very young.
But no, like, but I'm like, after all these years, I would think that it would bedifferent.
So I want to talk about that.
just want to remember when you and I were chatting, which was one of the casualconversations we were having.
(23:29):
And we've had several conversations about being a woman of color in tech.
And I don't if you remember this, but you told me about the pressure that you feel to stayin your current role because you want women, especially women of color, to see someone
that looks like you in a leadership role.
And I completely get that because that's one of the reasons why I'm still doing thisstuff.
But a part of me feels like that's just an unfair burden for you or I to carry.
(23:52):
I just wanted to, know, do you mind just sharing your thoughts on that for the listeners?
Yeah, it's a really interesting one, isn't it?
So I've had so many moments in my career where I've looked up and not seen anyone thatlooks like me.
And that moment when you realize the importance of representation and look around,
And, you know, like being really honest, there have been moments where it makes you lookaround and wonder what it could be like in another organization or on another career track
(24:23):
or maybe even in you know, in another country, you altogether.
But the thing that I also realized is imagine how others in the organization must feel.
And maybe if they look up and see me, like, how do they feel about that?
And
If I can break down some barriers along the way, maybe I could just inspire one person tochase the climb or to keep on going, then that could be a good thing.
(24:50):
And I guess what I'm trying to say is it's often difficult and it can be really exhaustingand feel like a burden to carry that.
But I also feel that as a leader, I've now got a platform, I suppose.
And if I don't use it, then no one else will.
(25:10):
you know, I do agree on the burden, but I think, I think sometimes that's what we have tocarry for the next generation of people who look like us.
And I mean, did you ever feel that way?
Like in your journey through, through an early version of tech, you know, because Iunderstand that tech was probably a completely different makeup back then.
(25:30):
Like, how did you navigate being the first, and how were you aware of, of your position ofothers looking up?
That's interesting.
That's a good question.
need to think.
So I think that I didn't think about it because I was busy fighting.
was busy fighting.
What I mean by that is so, okay, I've told this.
(25:52):
think I can't remember if I've told this story on the podcast before.
If I did, then listeners, you'll hear it again.
So when I started, I started in high school.
And I like my first job ever was doing Fortran programming for General Motors in Michigan.
And it was just me and my boss.
It was a guy named Ashok Deshpande And it was just us.
(26:12):
And he left to go back to India for a visit for a month at the end of our project.
And he just left me to do the pre- this is one of the reasons I did public speaking, letme do the presentation to these like all like older middle-aged white men, you know, at
the end of the project.
I'm 15 years old.
like, dude, are you kidding me?
Are you leaving me to do this on my own?
(26:33):
So, so I, I, I mentioned that to say that I started very early and I got, you know, likethrown in the deep end very early.
So by the time that I like fast forward through high school and undergrad and grad school,by the time I graduated with my master's degree in Computer Science, I'd been doing it for
a long time and I felt very comfortable.
But to your point, I was the first, I was the only woman in the, in the, you know, on theteam.
(26:55):
And I was the only
person of color on the team.
And this was because I tell people this all the time, for the first 10 years of my career,I only worked with middle-aged white men.
That was it.
There were no people of color, like male or female, and there were no women.
So I was busy just sort of fighting to represent that, hey, women and people of color canbe in this space too.
(27:17):
So I was just busy trying to make sure that I was representing for everybody, which again,talk about burden, feeling that burden on your shoulders.
so I wasn't, I don't even think I thought about the fact that I was, I was doing that, butI don't think I thought about the fact that I was the first.
I was just, and people would question my right to be in the room.
And this is why, this is one of the reasons why, you know, one of my topics was aboutimposter syndrome.
(27:41):
The thing that I said to the group is that I don't feel it anymore.
Like, because I dare anybody to question my right to be in the room after all these yearsand all the things that I've done.
like, please, are you kidding me?
Like, like I dare anybody to question, you know, my, my right to be in the room.
I mean, they're having said that there is occasional times when I'm doing a new role, likewhen I started working at my last corporate gig, which they did, they did a performance
(28:07):
monitoring and all this backend stuff, stuff that I hadn't done before.
And so, and then I was like, wait a minute, I don't know this.
So, you know, occasionally if I'm in a new role or in a new area, I go, wait a minute, Idon't know if I belong here, you know, it only lasts for like a second.
so to your point though, like, how did I navigate that?
Like say, I was just busy surviving.
I don't think that I thought about it.
(28:28):
And it wasn't until later, I'll tell you when it occurred to me, okay, now I've got tofigure out the next generation.
It was when I became a software engineering professor.
So that was my first attempt at retirement.
That was my my encore career was I was going to be this, I was going to be a collegeprofessor, which I was.
And I was looking out at my, most of my, I taught upper, like upper level, like juniors,and seniors and people who were about to graduate.
(28:53):
But I did have one course, which was Professional Practices and Ethics that taught to thesecond years.
So that was a slightly bigger, the upper level courses were smaller, but the second yearswere those big courses, which, you know, the big lecture hall or whatever.
And I would look out at this lecture hall and I'm like, where are the women?
Where are the women of color?
I was like, why is this still a thing?
(29:13):
Like, I was like, this just doesn't make any sense to me.
And that's what I started.
I got very passionate about it.
I started trying to like reach out to like,
girls groups and like, you Girls Inc and Girls Who Code and things like that, because Iwas like, there needs to be more women of color in tech.
And in my last, my last corporate gig, and again, this I know I've talked about too manytimes on the podcast before, but in my last corporate gig, it was the first time in my
(29:39):
entire career that I worked with a group, you know, really good DE &I community, and therewere other women of color and...
my mentor, Gwen Hurd, well, there were two, Stacy Simmons and Gwen Hurd, but Gwen Hurd wasa Black woman who reached out to me my first week on the job and said, Hey, let me show
you how to do this.
And then, she did the same thing.
And I asked her later, actually on this podcast and the podcast episode, I was like, thatwas so amazing that you did that for me.
(30:02):
You basically taught me how to do my job, but I was like, why did you reach out to me?
And she said, because I would.
I was so shocked to see another woman of color.
was just so excited.
was like, yay, let me be her friend.
Let me teach her how to do her job.
And it's sad that we all feel that way.
We are all just like, they feel like we're the only one and we see another person.
We're like, wow.
(30:23):
And like you say, we go to these conferences and we're like, wait a minute, it's not justme.
So yeah, I rambled on quite a bit there in answer to your question.
I don't even remember the...
the original question that you asked, other than, you know, how did I navigate being thefirst?
There was something else you asked me in there too, but that's when I got passionate abouthelping others because I'm like, I'm planning to retire again soon.
(30:46):
You know, I'm like some, soon I hope to retire and I just want to leave the space a littlebit better than I found it.
If that makes sense.
does make sense.
It does make sense.
That's really cool.
But I do think that it's a little bit of an unfair burden on us, but you know, we do whatwe have, we do what we must.
We do.
So let me ask you this.
So let me ask you one more question on that.
(31:08):
What do you think is the answer?
How do we fix it?
I mean, not that it's our job to fix it, but how does it get fixed?
That's a better way to ask the question.
How does it get fixed over time?
I mean, not tomorrow, but over time.
I think I see it as two facets really.
One is...
thinking about the pipeline and that goes right the way down to children at school,children at preschool, know, like moving away from giving our young females dolls to play
(31:41):
with, know, moving away from those stereotypes and really encouraging them to think aboutcareers that they wouldn't otherwise be exposed to.
I think it starts really young.
I think
There's some statistics, I can't remember off the top of my head, but there's somestatistics that suggest that girls, when they hit the teenage years, they drop off, their
(32:04):
interest in the STEM subjects completely drops off.
Like, why is that?
And what can we do in those spaces to help pull them back on track?
I think it...
Yeah, I think the evidence is like really clear that they're like, girls can be reallyinto STEM.
(32:24):
pre teenage.
So something must happen there.
And I don't know if that's hormonal.
don't know.
You know, I don't know the rest of the context there.
But I think that's one area because I think then that feeds the pipeline.
And, know, what I spoke about earlier, which is seeing all these young graduates andinterns coming through is really great.
I think we need more of that.
And that starts earlier.
(32:46):
And then the other aspect for me is reminding women
who already have careers who are later in their careers, mid and senior level, likereminding them that they can work in technology.
You know, if they are great communicators, great, you know, have great organisationalskills, you know, have the ability to plan, you know, work, you know, go deep and broad on
(33:11):
projects and programme management and, you know, service, service transition and, youknow, technology operations.
There's so many different fields and if they've got the core skills for any of thesethings, then they should absolutely consider a career in tech.
Doing full circle on my original point, like you don't have to code and you don't have tobe, I think you have to have a thirst for learning and engaging in technology.
(33:43):
And I think if you've got those things along with some core skills.
then you can absolutely have a Korean tech.
So I think there's two spheres of influence there.
One is the very, very, very young, and then one is these awesome women who do a lot ofawesome things every day and bringing them over.
I do think that in the middle there, in the post, after preteen and before ending ofcollege, I think in that space, I think it's societal.
(34:11):
It's the perception of the,
who is a tech person and when I say that I'm thinking the stereotypical tech bro, I thinkthat that is a component of it as well as the stigma.
remember when I was in undergrad, I would go out to parties and bars with my girlfriendsand nobody would talk to, I always joke like nobody would talk to me, but what would
(34:35):
happen is if a guy approached me and they asked me what I was studying and I saidComputer Science, they,
completely lose interest in walk away.
So I wonder like how much of it is that too?
Like you don't want to be that, that, she's, she's, she's different.
She's other, she's not a normal girl, you know, like, you know, that, that sort of thing.
(34:56):
I wonder how much of it is societal and the stigma and the perception of what a techperson is per se.
so yeah, we, I think there's a couple of things that need to be fixed there, but I thinkto your point too, that just having,
being there so that people have someone to look towards.
I think that's important.
That was what was so inspiring for me, circling back to Grace Hopper Celebration, but wasso inspiring for me at the conference was, first of all, I was not expecting the
(35:25):
conference to be so many students.
I think it was like 80%.
I don't know.
it was, there was a lot of the student component was big.
And so I wasn't expecting to meet quite so many students and just, they were inspired byme and I was just inspired to see them in the field.
So I was like, okay, you know what, maybe I do.
like I say, you get weary, you know, over the years and, know, and I'm like, I said, I'mworking towards retirement, but I'm like, you know what?
(35:50):
I want to be here so that they have this to look forward to.
Like, look, you can, you can have a long career in tech and see, I did it.
So, you know, that was inspirational for me as you know, part of the conference.
So that's, that was my big takeaway is that there's hope for the future.
I don't know.
And then of course, you know, it's funny because you were talking about just what I'mgonna wrap it up.
(36:11):
But you were talking about how when you were reaching out to your colleague and you werelike there's safety in numbers in terms of the speaking.
But we talked about possibly collaborating.
So we're back to that safety of numbers, right?
So we talked about a possible collaboration for next time.
So we got to work on that too, so that, you know, we get back there and then, you know, wecan continue the conversation and we can continue to be the thing that.
(36:34):
these younger ladies can look up to or look forward to, you know, have this, this longcareer in tech.
Absolutely.
I can't wait.
I'm, I'm like, I've got so many ideas for things that we could do together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sure it'll be ongoing conversation.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, Kaj, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and for sharing your experiencewith the listeners.
(36:54):
I really appreciate it.
No, thank you.
This has been great.
And thanks so much for having me.
I mean, I could, I could actually talk about this topic all day long.
I know.
Cause we spent four days talking about it, right?
At the conference.
Cause we were kind of like conference buddies.
You know how you get, go to a conference and there's that person you're like, well let'sdo this.
(37:15):
And then we're going to, I'm to go to this session.
Like we became conference buddies, which was so awesome.
So I'm so happy that we met on day one.
was, you know, it was meant to be, it was, it's for the best.
And
We're going to, like I we've got plenty of things that we're going to do together goingforward.
So this is going to be awesome.
Well, you're welcome.
You're welcome.
Well, to my listeners, I want to say thank you for listening.
(37:36):
And hopefully you, you heard what we had to say about, know, just sort of thinking aboutif you are a person who is wanting to get in tech and you don't have a tech background,
that there are some things that you can do, or even if you are in tech, just know thatyou're not, you're a woman of color.
You're not the only one.
There's plenty of us out there.
There's plenty of ways that you can.
meet and network with other women of color.
(37:57):
So again, thank you for listening.
If you have questions, I'd love to hear your questions.
You can give us a call or send us a text.
Leave us a voicemail at 404-425-9862.
You can follow us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
You can subscribe to our newsletter to get our show notes.
And that is subscribe.imperfectgenius.com.
And if you want to see the video version of this episode and have other bonus content orconnect with other women of color in tech, you can go to community.imperfectgenius.com.
(38:23):
And until next time, I'm Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
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