September 26, 2024 • 43 mins
Don't miss out on this insightful episode of Imperfect Genius! Tune in to gain valuable insights on project management, technical sales, and building confidence for interviews. Host Rachel Foster shares her personal experiences, insights on certifications, and practical advice for navigating these high-paying tech roles. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding the work in project management and offers strategies for standing out during the job search process.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:15):
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps black women thrive by providingtechnical advice and effectively navigating the business development journey and offering
advice to all women on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
In today's episode, I'm answering questions about technical sales and project management,plus an additional question about building confidence for technical interviews or
(00:39):
interviews in general.
These are questions from an online discussion group for women in tech.
And my answers are just far too detailed for a simple comment block.
I will share the answers with the people who posted the questions.
I just thought it would be a good topic for a podcast episode and that the answers wouldbe beneficial to more than just the folks that were in that discussion group.
(01:03):
So I'm recording an episode about that.
But first, I wanted to start with a brief update about my upcoming speaking engagement atGHC24, the Grace Hopper celebration.
I'm so excited.
just a little bit, and I promise that every episode will not talk about this.
There's the next couple of episodes because I'm doing the, I'm going to do the live, well,not the next couple, but I think the next one I've got a guest and then the one that comes
(01:28):
out after that I'll, I'm doing sort of a video journal while I'm there at the conference.
will be, I'll be releasing an episode that's just talking about my experience at theconference.
So, but I'm, I'm just saying, I'm promising I'm not going to keep talking about itforever.
But I just was, I wanted to share some exciting news because what happened was I, when Ispecifically chose my session type, so when you apply to become a speaker at the, well,
(01:53):
every conference is slightly different, but for GHC, when you apply to become a speaker,you pick what your session type is.
And there's different, there's the, I'm up on stage with however many, a big auditoriumtype space and you get just giant slides behind you.
There's breakout sessions, there's workshops, there's...
So there's all these different types of sessions.
(02:14):
And I specifically chose a brain date, which is just a small group or one -on -onediscussion.
And so I...
Because I wanted to...
My topic, which I think I mentioned before, the subject topic is good enough,perfectionism and imposter syndrome, battle on two fronts.
It's a very, very...
I'm very passionate about the topic and it's a deep topic and it's something that you wantto talk to people about.
(02:37):
It's not something you want to talk at people.
about.
So I specifically chose a brain date.
And for those types of sessions at GHC, you have to set those up ahead of time for peopleto sign up for them because it's limited, because it's a small group and or it's one -on
-one and people have to book time with you specifically.
so I set up that they finally opened it up for the speakers to set up their brain datesession.
(03:00):
So I set mine up.
think it was like 7 PM last Monday.
So it was like Monday night.
I set it up and I, you know,
walked away from the computer and thought, well, hopefully somebody will sign up betweennow and the conference so that I'm not, I don't just show up and I'm just talking to
myself.
And the next morning, like by 7 a the next morning, my session was already full.
And again, this is a small group session, so this is not, you know, don't blow it out ofproportion, it's a small group session.
(03:24):
But still, I was like, wow, should I do another session?
Because as a brain date, you you have the flexibility of being able to do multiple, likecould do one every day of the conference if I wanted, but I actually want to.
attend the conference too as an attendee.
So I was like, wow, should I do?
was like, well, maybe I said, I'll just do, you know, open up a opportunity for people todo one -on -one sessions with me if they want to do one -on -one, maybe, you know, a
(03:47):
couple of people.
then again, so now I've already had several people do that.
And now I'm like, okay, wait, I've got to put, got, I don't have an official waiting list,but I'm like, I got to put a pause on accepting invitations until I fill out my agenda and
figure out what sessions I'm attending.
Cause otherwise I'm going to spend the whole time.
doing one -on -one, which actually sounds awesome.
So I don't know.
We'll see where it goes.
But I'm just excited because I was worried that I might be just sitting there at a lonelylittle table waiting for somebody to show up to come talk to me.
(04:14):
So it's not a day.
It's in the BrainDate lounge and what if you're attending, look for me in the BrainDatelounge.
But or actually you need to go onto the site and book the session that way.
But anyway, I'm excited about that.
OK, so I just want to do that brief update.
But let's let's dive into the questions.
So the first question, I'm gonna read this verbatim.
(04:35):
I'm terrible at reading things aloud because of my dyslexia, but bear with me as I attemptto read this.
Here we go.
I'm considering a switch to project management in tech and would love your advice.
For those of you already in the field or with experience, what certifications or programswould you recommend to help me stand out?
Especially since I don't have much practical experience yet.
(04:56):
Any tips or insights would be greatly appreciated.
Okay, so.
have lots of thoughts on this.
I am a current project manager and previously was a project manager and walked away fromit.
So don't know why I'm doing it again.
So I have lots of thoughts about project manager, but I want to start by talking about, sothis person is asking about standing out and asking about certifications and things like
(05:23):
that.
And I want to start by explaining what my concept of, I think that there are two differenttypes of project managers.
I think that there are project managers who came up through the ranks doing whatever thething is.
So I specifically I'm talking about project management and IT.
This question was specifically about project management in tech.
(05:44):
So when I say that, I say that to clarify it, there are different types of their projectmanagers for construction or what.
So I'm specifically talking about in tech, but I think that the first part of what I'mabout to say the type of project manager applies to
any industry, the second part might be specific to tech.
having said that, back to my point, I think there's two different types of projectmanagers.
(06:07):
There are project managers who came through the ranks doing the thing, doing the job.
you know, if we're talking in tech, for me, software engineering, then, you know, you camethrough the ranks as a developer and then maybe, you know, you were a dev manager and then
maybe you came.
became a project manager.
And there's steps in between there.
I'm just saying.
So maybe you came up through the ranks doing the work and then eventually became a projectmanager.
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And then there's a different type of project manager who are the certified.
And this is in no way, let me be clear, no shade on PMPs and certified project managers.
I'm just making a distinction here.
And we'll say that I know some very fabulous certified project managers, PMPs.
(06:53):
The thing I'm trying to say is there are the people who are just certified and that soundsbad the way that I'm saying it.
Certification is a big deal.
It costs a lot of money.
It takes time.
It's impressive.
You have to keep up your skills.
You have to get certain credits each year or over X number of years.
So it's a big deal to have a certification.
But there are some project managers who lean heavily on the fact that they're certifiedand don't actually understand the work.
(07:19):
So this is the distinction I'm drawing again.
I'm not trying to put shade on PMPs, which by the way, I said that acronym a few times forthose who don't know.
PMP stands for Project Management Professional, I think.
I'm not even sure.
Obviously, I'm not a PMP because I don't even know what it stands for.
But the PMI .org is a certification organization for certifying project managers.
(07:43):
But so my point is there, think that there are the roll up your sleeves.
I know how to do this.
I could do the work, you know, I could, I could pitch in.
You shouldn't, if you're a project manager, you should not be doing the work, but youknow, they, they, they know enough that they could pitch in and fill it, fill the gap if
necessary.
because they came up through the ranks doing this and they understand the complications.
They understand the work.
(08:03):
And then there are some, and I'm not saying that all certified project managers that itthis way, but there are some that just rely on the fact that, I have, I have a
certification and like, and, and.
They don't necessarily understand the work and is, and that's been my experience as again,when I was a software engineer and, working with the different types of project managers,
I always preferred the project managers, getting tongue tied today.
(08:27):
I always preferred the project managers who understood the work.
And again, should not be rolling up their sleeves and helping, but could if it came to it,because they understood the work just that well.
So having said that.
You are going to get better jobs and more money if you have a certification.
I personally have never, like I say, I was a project manager for years and then went awayfrom it and doing it again for a client.
(09:00):
You're going to get, you're going to get way more money if you have a certification.
I never personally got the certification because for a couple of reasons, again, you've,I'm sure you all are sick of hearing me talk about my dyslexia, but it's.
is very real and test taking is very difficult for me.
And I'm not sure if the certification for PMP is a time test, but especially time tests,time tests are just really, really rough for me.
(09:25):
So I, and yes, these days you can, you can ask for special dispensation if you know, fordyslexia, for neurodivergence.
So I'm sure I could ask for some special dispensation for taking the test for my dyslexia,but it just,
taking test taking is just torturous for me.
And like I say, it's also the PMP certification is expensive and takes time and et cetera,et cetera.
(09:49):
So I never chose it for myself, but I'm not saying that it's not for everyone.
know people who, like I said, I know some really fabulous PMPs.
My point is, I'm making a point, I'm getting to a point here.
My point is in doing the actual work, it's more important to understand the thing thatyou're managing.
So if you are,
(10:10):
a project manager for a software implementation or for a software build, it's importantthat you understand the software development life cycle and methodologies.
if you're doing agile, you understand that.
You need to understand the work and understand the nuances so that when you hit issues or,and, cause you're going to hit, you know, at some point you're going to be either over
(10:34):
budget or, or
over time or you you need to you need to understand the nuances of the work so that whenyou hit those problems you can you can come up with more creative solutions and how to
solve them if you don't understand what it takes so I feel like a good example this Idon't even remember the year that the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare first came out
(10:58):
whatever that year was I remember I was sort of watching it
the story in the news story on folder.
Maybe I read it after the fact, about what happened with, cause it was a data for anybodywho doesn't remember it was a disaster when it first launched.
And I was reading the story about what happened with the project and what happened wasthey kept running out of time or, their, their time kept getting pressed, but they had a
(11:22):
hard deadline.
had a deadline that the website had to launch and it was immovable.
It was a government deadline that had to be met.
And so they kept squeezing different sections of the work and until the point where Ithink they only gave themselves two weeks to do all testing.
for anybody who's a software engineer, I'm talking unit testing, functional testing,integration testing, system testing, performance set.
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they gave them so like, because they kept everything kept overrunning and they keptgetting, you know, shorter and shorter on time.
And they just, they just kept compressing the end of the cycle, the software developmentlife cycle, which was the testing phase right before you deploy.
And that is horrible decision.
That is terrible decision making.
But again, you need to understand what all those different types of testing methods that Ijust mentioned are in order to understand how much time you need to do these things.
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So you need to understand the work in order to be able to manage it properly.
So my point to the, know, and the answer to the question is yes, know, certifications willhelp you stand out when you're just talking about someone just looking at a resume and
comparing.
to generic resumes to one another, the one with the PMP may stand out.
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Some of the job ads for project managers are gonna specifically say that they require aPMP.
But in my opinion, that's less important than understanding how to manage the work.
so finding ways to show that you stand out separate.
let's say you don't have a PMP, highlighting.
(12:56):
projects that you've worked on and the things that you've done on those projects and whatyou understand.
like find other ways to stand out rather than just a certification.
I have a whole other rant I could go on with regard to certifications, which I'm not goingto go on here.
Maybe for, you know, the next time I answer a certification question, I'll get dig intothat.
But I have a whole, I have rants about different things, but I especially have a rantabout certification.
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So, so having said that, I just want to wrap up this question.
I would say yes, if you're just talking just
things on LinkedIn or things on a page for a resume.
Somebody's looking at having certifications can help, specifically having a PMP, if you'relooking to do project management for tech.
However, find other ways to stand out.
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And ultimately, you know, when you get that interview, it's going to be about talkingabout the work that you've done and how you understand the work that they're trying to do.
Like it's important in the interview to understand the project that they're asking you tocome in to manage.
Cause keep in mind, it's not just about
you answering their questions, they need to answer your questions, right?
So you need to understand exactly what it is they're trying to do.
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Are they in the middle of the project?
Are they at the beginning?
Are they behind schedule?
What's going on?
You need to understand all of that.
And even just asking those questions are going to make you stand out because noteverybody, a lot of people, I know the job market is hard right now and a lot of people
are just trying to get a job, right?
So being that thoughtful about it upfront in the interview process is going to actuallyhelp you as well.
(14:24):
All right, I feel like I've gone on too long about answering that question.
So that's the answer to that question.
Let's move on to question number two.
If you had to pick between technical sales or project management, which one would you pickand why?
Now, the interesting thing about this question in the discussion forum, a lot of peoplewere like, random much?
(14:46):
Because they were just like, those two things are not related.
Why are you asking?
I think that the person was in one and thinking of switching to the other or was in acompletely different tech role.
And those were the first for whatever reason, those are the two roles they were thinkingabout switching to.
it's not exactly logical why those two.
(15:08):
It's the question that I saw and I had a lot to say about it because I happen to have doneboth roles.
So we just talked about me and that I've been a project manager for a while, but also I'vedone technical sales.
So I'm gonna start the answer to this one with a little bit of a story.
I'm gonna talk about, you all have heard me talk about my most recent corporate gig, whichwas at New Relic.
(15:29):
I wanna talk about how I got there.
So I had wrapped up, I had just wrapped up, I was a software engineering professor at alocal university.
Well, it's like the third largest, I think in the state, I'm not sure.
I don't remember, anyway.
It's it as I was doing it was a state university.
I was teaching software engineering and it was a contract and the contract ended and I wasI was working on the business.
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I had an app that I was thinking about trying to take to production and I was working onsome things and New Relic reached out to me.
The the talent agent talent agent.
It's not like I'm an actress or something where they call talent acquisition.
That's what they call it.
You know, they just call them recruiters, right?
But these days the term is talent acquisition.
So the talent acquisition person for this role reached out to me and said, hey, we werewondering if you'd be interested in interviewing for this technical sales role.
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And I was like, no, sorry, wrong number.
I don't do sales.
Like sales is not my thing.
I am not, I'm a little bit too brutally honest.
feel like, even though I had a previous business, have a current business, but I don't, inmy opinion, I don't sell.
talk to people.
just give people facts and let them make decisions.
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don't consider myself a salesperson.
So, you know, they call me about specifically a sales role at this corporate, you know,technical company.
And I was like, no, I'm sorry, wrong number.
That's not me.
And I think I completely threw the talent acquisition person, because this was in 2020when, about maybe six months into the pandemic, somewhere between four to six months into
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the pandemic when
Everybody was, you everything was shutting down and people were losing jobs and peoplewere pretty desperate.
And so I think for anybody to say no to an interview was probably pretty shocking, but Iwas like, this is not like, I don't just interview for anything that anybody, you know,
asked me to.
I look, I, I feel like I need to be a good fit.
So I was like, no.
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and so she was, she was so caught off guard and she was like, well, would you mind justtalking to the hiring manager?
You know, just to,
you know, get a better feel for the role.
And I was like, yeah, sure.
I can tell him no, just same as I told you.
was just like, I was very unbothered.
I was like, yeah, I can talk to him.
It's not a problem, but I can tell him no.
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And so initially, so I talked to her, set up the meeting and I talked to him.
And initially, you know, I was like, no, I don't think this is a good fit for me.
But then, and this is the reason that I ended up working there, he was very thoughtfulabout it.
He had
because he had seen found me on LinkedIn and reached out to or he reached out to thetalent acquisition person said, would you reach out to her?
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So he had my LinkedIn.
I don't know if he had it.
We were talking on the phone and it wasn't a video call.
So I couldn't see what he was doing, but it seemed like he had my LinkedIn profile up infront of him and he was just reading through.
He's like, well, when you did this, you know, at this company, then, you know, this is howthat plays into this role.
And he basically went through all of my background and said, like how the skills and thethings that I did in previous roles would.
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fit into this technical sales role, which was a solution consultant position.
And I was like, whoa, okay.
I was like, I was just so impressed by the fact that he had actually gone like, here's thething, I used to work at Oracle.
And so you see Oracle all over my LinkedIn profile.
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And if I'm sending somebody a resume, it's all over my resume.
So I,
Anyway, I get a lot of people who call, who reach out to me about Oracle DBA positions,database administrative positions, or some other Oracle position that is not what I do.
So I get a lot of people who reach out to me and are not, understand what I actually didwith regard to Oracle.
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And so the fact that he'd actually, he understood it and he had read it and he hadactually done this like mapping of
this skill applies to this, you know, requirement in the, in the job wreck.
Like, and I was just so impressed that I honestly, I said yes to the interview.
was still not planning on taking the job.
but I was like, I was just, I felt like obligated to, sort of pay back his, his work with,was like, well, at least I could do his interview.
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Like, cause he, he did this work and he's been very thoughtful about, you know, mappingout how I would, you know, fit into this role.
So, you know, I'll, I'll go ahead and, and do the interview.
So I did the interview with that.
That's a whole other story.
was a, cause there was a, technical portion of the interview, there was a mistake that wasmade in the information that was sent to me.
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And I, was so like, I was given the wrong information and it was so difficult to getthrough because I had all of the wrong instructions.
I thought it was a psychological test cause some companies will do that.
They will, they will intentionally try to stress you out to see how you react to thestress.
So I was, I was like, they're testing me.
I was like, okay, that's fine.
(20:31):
I can pass this like, and then it wasn't until after.
So I obviously ended up taking the position.
made me an offer.
ended up taking the position.
And it was afterwards when I was talking to my, my boss, who was the hiring manager.
And I told him about, you know, the difficulties in the interview, the technical side ofthe interview, and because there was this project that I had to do and he was like, I sent
(20:51):
you the wrong instructor.
Like, so it was not intentional.
Like he just.
accidentally sent me the wrong information.
Plus he sent me information for someone else who was interviewing at the same time who hasa very unique name and I thought it was a fake name.
was like, it was just, it was just, anyway, that's not the point.
So the point of the question, I've gone off topic.
(21:12):
The point of the question was about tech sales versus project management.
So, you know, here's the thing purely based on the numbers, I'd say tech sales becausewell,
There is some uncertainty if you're in sales because sales is a commission commissionbased role However, if you're doing a role like a something like a solutions consultant
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with technical sales if it's a decent company They should be offering a floor whichmeaning that they should be offering the lowest Commission that you're gonna get because
the role is because the actual sale there's the technical component of it but then there'sthe actual sales and the
part that's doing the actual sales is going to be the account executive.
The AE is more on the hook for the total sale.
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The technical, the solutions consultant, the technical side of it is just demonstratingthe product and or answering technical questions, things like that.
So no matter, like you could do your job really well and still the sale doesn't gothrough.
So it's best.
like said, this was the case at New Relic or at least it was the case when I was in salesat New Relic.
I know they changed their commission structure for over time.
(22:19):
So I'm not sure what it was by the time I left, but
For me, there was a minimum.
I was not going to make anything less than 80 % of my target for a commission, which isgreat.
And you can make, there's no, well, there might be a ceiling, but as far as I knew, therewas no ceiling.
So you could make 150 % or et cetera, et cetera.
But the fact that there was a floor, I was not going to make anything less than 80 % of mycommission was, it provided a stabilizing force.
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So I say all that to say that yes, there is a variable component to sales because it'scommission based.
But if you're on the technical sales side, if you're doing a solutions consultant type ofrole, then there should be a little bit more stability than if you're just doing complete,
like if you're an account executive, that's going to be a little bit more volatile.
And because it's commission based and because you can make more than a hundred percent ofyour commission, you're generally going to make more money in technical sales than you
(23:13):
can in project management.
Although depending on the type of project management you do, you can make a lot of moneyin project management too.
like they're, you know, they're a little bit on par, but I think, you know, again, purelybased on numbers, you're going to make more money in technical sales and in project
management.
and it, but they're very, very different roles.
So that's why this question was an interesting one that this person was looking at bothsides.
(23:47):
I just want to talk a little bit about being a project manager though, because again, it'smore than just the money.
also, very different roles.
As a solutions consultant, you're in technical sales, you're demonstrating the product,whatever the thing is, to your potential customers and answering their questions.
depending on, I worked for a SaaS company, SaaS stands for software as a service, forthose who don't know.
(24:12):
So I worked for a SaaS company and so our sales cycle would take, we would do proof ofconcepts and spin up demos and it could take three months to make the sale.
So you're doing a lot of work and it's like little project, each sales like a littleproject that you're doing to sort of convince the customer or show the customer how you
can utilize the product.
(24:35):
So it's very different than project management.
Now, what is project management like?
years ago, I don't know, I don't remember what year it was.
There was a Superbowl commercial that I love and you can still find it on, on YouTube.
I'll give you the, the, the YouTube thing to search or Google thing to search in order tofind it.
But first let me explain it because it'll, if I tell you now it'll give away the, the, theending.
(24:59):
so there was this commercial during the Superbowl where they had these guys that, youknow, they got these cowboys, they're like in the,
long leather dusters and they're on horses and they got their hats and they're all dustyand you know, and they're just in there like, it's like they're interviewing and they're
like, yeah, I've been doing, this has been going on in my family for years.
My, my, my dad did it.
My granddad did it.
Like, like, you know, it's just, they got these deep Southern accents and whatnot andthey're talking and you're thinking like they're herding cattle or something.
(25:24):
And then they, they panic cause they're tight shot on like the faces of these cowboys.
And then maybe just them and their horse, you know, like that's all you see.
And then, and then they pan out and they're herding cats.
Like there's just all these cats just running everywhere and it's just like chaos andthey're trying to hurt these cats and they're and then they're they're showing them like
this one I got this scratch just today, you know They're showing like the all the woundsthat they got from kind of hurt these cats And it was and I don't even the funny thing is
(25:51):
I don't even remember the company that did this This ad but it was about you know,bringing in professionals to do your to manage your projects It was it was a consulting
company and they were talking about bringing in professionals to do the work
So again, so the search that you can do on YouTube or Google is search for Super Bowlhurting cats commercial and you'll find it and it's hilarious.
(26:13):
It's so funny.
That is what project management is like though.
Like that's why I love that commercial so much because that is exactly what it feels like.
And if you have you like if you've ever had a cat ever met a cat ever seen a cat ontelevision, like then you understand how like contrary and how much they do not care what
(26:33):
you want.
from them.
They just, they do not care.
And they just do what they want, you know?
And so yeah, herding cats is very much what it feels like to be a project manager.
That's the, you know, that's the challenge there.
That's the funny part of it.
The downside of it is, you know, in the worst projects and in the projects that are not,or the companies where
(26:59):
that have other issues going on a lot of times, because project managers tend to befemale.
I think this is very much a gender thing that project managers get treated likesecretaries and hey, no shade on secretaries or administrative assistants.
You guys rock.
It's just not the role of a project manager.
know, bless the admins for what they do, but that is not what a project manager is meantto do.
(27:23):
That is not their role.
And so you get...
in these roles where, then sometimes you're like, do you understand what you're paying meas a project manager and you want me to do what?
Like, you you're just like, again, another rant that I could go on that I won't, but mypoint is project managers are not admins.
(27:44):
That's not the intent of the role.
And also, hello, I have a master's degree in computer science, schedule your own damnmeetings.
no.
So, I'm saying too much.
I got to be careful here.
So anyway, my point is that's an interesting question about how do you pick between techsales and project management?
And it really, it's going to depend on you.
(28:06):
It depends on the type of work that you want to do.
If you're very organized and good at keeping people in line, then project management, andthat's where you thrive.
That's where your energy comes from.
Then project management might be for you.
If you love projects and you love a challenge and...
demonstrating to people and educating people, then maybe tech sales is for you.
(28:30):
It's just very different.
And like I say, on the numbers, you're probably going to end up better off in tech salesthan in project management, but it is unstable because of the commission.
you you got to hit your numbers.
So there's added pressure there.
So difficult question to answer.
It's going to depend on, it's completely going to depend on you.
(28:50):
All right, let's move on to the last question for this session or for this particularpodcast episode.
I wanna just take this a moment to remind folks that if you have questions, can, say itagain at the end of the episode, but you can leave us a voicemail at 404 -425 -9862 or
send us a text, or you can reach out to us.
can go to ImperfectGenius .com, reach out to us and send us your questions and you mightget them answered on a future podcast episode.
(29:16):
All right, so.
Last question.
My friends and colleagues say I'm not confident and it shows.
I've been looking for jobs and the interview process proves that my confidence isn't up topar.
Sometimes I feel confident or seem confident, but it doesn't last.
What tips, exercises, or methods do you guys have to increase your confidence?
(29:39):
Okay, so first I want to talk about some of the answers that I saw to this question beforeI provide my answer.
So there was some fake it till you make it.
you know, just even if you don't feel confident, pretend like you're confident until youactually get there.
And there's, I think there's some merit to that advice.
(29:59):
There was one that, one response that I really loved.
It was a keep an accomplishment journal.
you know, write down at the end of the week or daily if you're up for it, but theirrecommendation was weekly so that it didn't feel like it was too overwhelming.
but just write down your accomplishments at the end of each week and then just go back andreview those until, so that you can see the things that you're accomplishing and then
(30:21):
maybe that will help to build your confidence.
I will say I didn't, I never kept an accomplishment journal.
I do keep a gratitude journal.
That's a whole different thing.
But what I used to do, this is something I used to do in corporate America is wheneversomebody would send me a compliment, they would thank me for something or send me a
compliment.
And this was, I used to do customer training.
(30:42):
So I used to get,
feedback a lot.
was part of like part of a big thing of what I was supposed to do is to get feedback sothat I can improve the training for future purposes.
So I would get feedback from customers, but I also would get feedback from othercolleagues that I worked with because I would work with other people on doing training for
their, you know, whatever their particular project was, or I did project management andsome other things.
(31:06):
So I would get feedback from colleagues as well as customers.
And whenever I got compliments, which I
I'm happy to say was often whenever I got compliments, I would take a screenshot of it.
I mean, I would keep it like if it was an email or however I got, like if it was in aSlack message or something like that, I would save it.
But I also would take screenshots of it and I would use it for my reviews.
(31:28):
So in corporate America, you usually have reviews twice a year, maybe once.
It depends on the size of the company.
And we also used to do 360 reviews, which is that you would do, you everybody would, you,
your colleagues will review, your manager will review you, any of your direct reports willreview you.
And so I would save screenshots of things that people said about how I helped them.
(31:51):
And not just a thank you, like these will be people who go into specifics about how Ihelped them achieve X, Y, or Z.
Because one of big thing about reviews is you want to do smart goals.
Are they specific and are they measurable?
Are they attainable?
Are they realistic and time bound?
So whenever somebody was being very specific about the thing that I helped them achieve,then, you know, I would include that in my review.
(32:13):
Like I did, you know, I was able to help this person accomplish this and, know, itshortened this, timeframe on this by this much.
So anyway, so I love, that's why I love the idea of doing an accomplishment journal.
That sounds like a great idea.
There was another one that was basically like dance it out at Grey's Anatomy style.
Love that.
It was like just before you, you're going to going into an interview or whatever, just,you know, put on your favorite music and just.
(32:35):
dance like crazy and dance it out until you're just in such a good mood and you got thoseendorphins flowing.
And then go into the interview.
Love that idea.
There were several, you know, lots of feedback about working on improving your self-esteem.
That's easier said than done.
You can't just tell somebody to be confident or, you know, yes, you can work on it.
I agree that work saying work on your self -esteem is actionable feedback, but it's just,it's a tough thing to do.
(33:03):
And then, the one that just drove me up a wall, it started with, it sounds like you'resuffering from imposter syndrome.
So, again, I ranted on the last podcast episode about, I've got lots of thoughts aboutimposter syndrome.
Not gonna get into that here because I'm gonna be talking about it post the conference.
I just wanna say one thing though, imposter syndrome is not, because they literallystarted the...
(33:28):
the response with, sounds like you're suffering from imposter syndrome.
Like it sounds like you're suffering from erectile dysfunction.
It's not a medical thing.
It's a made up phenomenon by two psychologists who were just studying their upper andmiddle -class white patients and students.
It's not a medical diagnosis is my point.
Again, I'm not going to go on my rant here, but it's not a medical condition.
(33:51):
It's not a mental disorder.
Imposter syndrome is a made up thing.
I realized that a lot of things are made up by psychologists.
I don't mean that came out wrong.
What I mean by that is at some point a lot of medical mental disorders were originallystudied by psychologists and became a thing.
I'm saying if you look it up and I forget what the name of that book is or the list of allof the mental disorders, imposter syndrome is not in that book.
(34:17):
It's not a thing.
It's not a medical condition.
Anyway, again.
more on that later when I talk about the conference and sort of the conversations that wehad there.
So again, I want to answer this one with a little bit of a story.
So this is because it's always because I get this question from there.
(34:40):
There's several women in tech that I mentor.
And even if I don't mentor them, I used to be part of a group of women of color in tech.
that, you know, we would have lunch and learns and different things that we would talkabout.
so confidence and, and this type of thing came up a lot.
And it's tough for me because I've been doing, I've been in tech for so long and it's notlike I'm like so old.
(35:07):
don't remember back in the day, but I just been in, I've been in tech for so long.
It's tough for me to remember what it was like early on.
And also I feel like I started,
I feel like I started in a very different place in a different way.
So I'm going to tell a little bit of story about how I started in tech.
(35:27):
So I was in high school.
I went to a high school that would be considered a magnet school now, a cast tech, shoutout to cast technical high school in Detroit, Michigan.
so I don't think they called it that back then.
I'm old enough y 'all.
I don't remember what it was called back then.
Magnet school was seems like a term that came along later.
but it was a school where you had to declare a major.
And so I majored in computer programming in high school.
(35:49):
And so my first job ever, because my mother wouldn't let me get just like a regular oldjob, like working at McDonald's or Blockbuster or something like that.
so my first job was when I got an internship doing Fortran programming at the GeneralMotors Technical Center in Warren, Michigan, because that was the first job my mother was
like, yeah, you, that you could do.
so that was my first job at age 15 doing, Fortran programming for GM.
(36:13):
And I was doing graphics and craft simulation and it was just me and my supervisor.
And he just, he, we were working on this project and we had to do a presentation at the,and I started, was working through the school year and throughout the summer.
And at the end of the summer, we were supposed to do this presentation to the engineersand, and this is, we're talking in the eighties.
(36:33):
So the engineers were all old white men or older white men.
So we're supposed to be doing this presentation to them on the status of the project atthe end of the summer.
But my supervisor who was Indian.
He went back to India for a month and he's like, you can do it.
You can do it.
You'll be fine.
Like he left me at 15 year old to do this presentation to these.
(36:55):
I'm sorry.
Let me clarify a 15 year old little black girl.
He left me to do this presentation to these old white men for general, know, at generalmotors on this, this crash simulation program we were doing.
And I was like, wait, what, excuse me.
I like, is that legal?
Like I'm only 15.
Like, I don't know.
was.
I mean, it wasn't illegal.
I'm just saying like it just felt very not right.
(37:17):
Luckily, I was studying at this at this magnet school.
I was also studying communications and or and I was taking a a what am I trying to publicspeaking course.
So I had that that skill set in my back pocket, thankfully, because otherwise I would havejust been like a total like tech geek, just like programmer.
Like, you don't put that.
Well, that's that's mean.
(37:38):
But that's that was the mentality of when I was coming up in my early careers.
tech people, just sort of brought them in the back door and you didn't introduce them tothe client because they didn't have social skills.
So my point was I had the public speaking to balance out the tech geek side of, and plusI'm super introvert.
So it was, I had those skills to balance it out.
(37:59):
My point is when you start off at age 15 doing something like that,
By the time you graduate college and in my case, you know, get a graduate degree and thengo out into the world and start working.
By the time I got to that point, I mean, I dared anybody to question my right to be in theroom, right?
So it's hard for me to give advice on how to be more confident because I think it justcomes from the doing.
(38:31):
Like, don't think about, I think,
And I feel like my advice would be, don't think about the other people.
Like, cause that's where I think the lack of confidence in an interview might come from isthat you're thinking, no, I don't measure up to these people.
And this goes, this does go back to imposter syndrome again, more on that later.
But you might be thinking that you're not good enough, which is why I titled my talk goodenough.
(38:56):
You might be thinking you're not good enough.
You don't measure like what they've already got this job or they're the senior managerhere or the vice president or it depends on what the role is you're interviewing for.
but the point is don't think about them.
Think about yourself, your skills, what you want, what type of role you want to be in,whether or not this, again, you should be asking questions and like you should be grilling
(39:18):
them just as hard as they're grilling you.
You should be asking questions about what this role is, what this company is, whether ornot you're going to fit in there.
So if you're thinking about yourself, and so basically I'm saying be a little bit selfish.
If you're thinking about yourself and what you're gonna get out of this, you're gonna haveless time to worry about how you're coming across.
Now, I'm not saying don't be professional.
(39:40):
And professional, I know that means different things to different people, people who lookdifferent than me.
Don't think about that either.
Don't worry about, I'm in this room, like, especially if you're doing a panel interviewand you're looking, you know, whether it's on Zoom or you're across the table from four or
(40:00):
five people who don't look anything like you, don't let that get in your head.
Don't play that game.
Cause actually, you know what?
If you're in that situation, you need to be asking about diversity at that company.
need to be digging, losing my voice.
You need to be digging into,
looking at the stats at that company to see if you're going to be, you know, all alone,which you still may be, especially if you're working in tech, but you need to be digging
(40:27):
into that company.
And that's what should be in your head, not, no, I don't belong here, but wait a minute,where are the rest of the people of color?
And why am I the only one in this room right now?
So, so my point is, I think, I feel like if you just focus on the work of understandingthe role,
(40:47):
and explaining how you can meet that role, how you can excel in that role.
And if you just explain that and don't think about, am I good enough?
I feel like that's kind of a little bit of a cop -out answer, but I do think it couldhelp.
Like I said, I like the other answers too, like the accomplishment journal and things likethat.
(41:09):
And yeah, know what, psych yourself up.
Speaking of Grey's Anatomy, there was, I don't remember,
Amelia, Amelia Shepherd, one of the characters on Grey's Anatomy.
She would before a big surgery, she was brain surgeon, and before a big surgery, she wouldstand in front of a mirror and in the superhero pose.
I think there's like some psychology around this that she was standing, like just sort ofstanding in that, you know, hands on hips and looking up in the air, like sort of like
(41:37):
Superman pose.
And she would stand.
There's some psychology about how long you have to stand that way.
But there was just something that apparently gives you confidence about standing that way.
Or, you know, wear your secret favorite t -shirt, you know, like I have a shirt that says,I'm a big Marvel fan and I have a shirt that says, I am Iron Man.
And I remember I was doing, and it's from the end game, it's that I am Iron Man, not theone from the beginning of the story arc.
(42:04):
And I had, there was something I was doing, I don't remember what it was, but I wore thatshirt under a blazer or under, you know, something else.
Cause I just wanted that, like I wanted that in my head that I am Iron Man, like I can dothis.
You know, I can take out Thanos.
So, so yeah.
So, so do the things that you need to, to psych yourself up and before you even go inthere.
(42:24):
And then again, don't think about them.
Think about yourself and what you're trying to get out of it.
And I think maybe, maybe that can help.
I don't You guys tell me, I'd love to hear some feedback.
So again, so stay tuned.
Thank you for listening as always, as again, if you want to leave a question, you canleave us a voicemail at 404 -425 -9862, or you could text us.
(42:45):
You can reach out to us at imperfectgenius .com as well.
can visit subscribe .imperfectgenius .com to subscribe to our newsletter or receive a copyof our show notes.
You can reach us on social media at askimperfectgenius.
And also if you're interested in joining a community of vibrant and supportive black andbrown women, women of color on the same path, then head over to community .imperfectgenius
(43:07):
.com and join us there.
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
that
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps black women thrive by providingtechnical advice and effectively navigating the business development journey and offering
advice to all women on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
In today's episode, I'm answering questions about technical sales and project management,plus an additional question about building confidence for technical interviews or
(00:39):
interviews in general.
These are questions from an online discussion group for women in tech.
And my answers are just far too detailed for a simple comment block.
I will share the answers with the people who posted the questions.
I just thought it would be a good topic for a podcast episode and that the answers wouldbe beneficial to more than just the folks that were in that discussion group.
(01:03):
So I'm recording an episode about that.
But first, I wanted to start with a brief update about my upcoming speaking engagement atGHC24, the Grace Hopper celebration.
I'm so excited.
just a little bit, and I promise that every episode will not talk about this.
There's the next couple of episodes because I'm doing the, I'm going to do the live, well,not the next couple, but I think the next one I've got a guest and then the one that comes
(01:28):
out after that I'll, I'm doing sort of a video journal while I'm there at the conference.
will be, I'll be releasing an episode that's just talking about my experience at theconference.
So, but I'm, I'm just saying, I'm promising I'm not going to keep talking about itforever.
But I just was, I wanted to share some exciting news because what happened was I, when Ispecifically chose my session type, so when you apply to become a speaker at the, well,
(01:53):
every conference is slightly different, but for GHC, when you apply to become a speaker,you pick what your session type is.
And there's different, there's the, I'm up on stage with however many, a big auditoriumtype space and you get just giant slides behind you.
There's breakout sessions, there's workshops, there's...
So there's all these different types of sessions.
(02:14):
And I specifically chose a brain date, which is just a small group or one -on -onediscussion.
And so I...
Because I wanted to...
My topic, which I think I mentioned before, the subject topic is good enough,perfectionism and imposter syndrome, battle on two fronts.
It's a very, very...
I'm very passionate about the topic and it's a deep topic and it's something that you wantto talk to people about.
(02:37):
It's not something you want to talk at people.
about.
So I specifically chose a brain date.
And for those types of sessions at GHC, you have to set those up ahead of time for peopleto sign up for them because it's limited, because it's a small group and or it's one -on
-one and people have to book time with you specifically.
so I set up that they finally opened it up for the speakers to set up their brain datesession.
(03:00):
So I set mine up.
think it was like 7 PM last Monday.
So it was like Monday night.
I set it up and I, you know,
walked away from the computer and thought, well, hopefully somebody will sign up betweennow and the conference so that I'm not, I don't just show up and I'm just talking to
myself.
And the next morning, like by 7 a the next morning, my session was already full.
And again, this is a small group session, so this is not, you know, don't blow it out ofproportion, it's a small group session.
(03:24):
But still, I was like, wow, should I do another session?
Because as a brain date, you you have the flexibility of being able to do multiple, likecould do one every day of the conference if I wanted, but I actually want to.
attend the conference too as an attendee.
So I was like, wow, should I do?
was like, well, maybe I said, I'll just do, you know, open up a opportunity for people todo one -on -one sessions with me if they want to do one -on -one, maybe, you know, a
(03:47):
couple of people.
then again, so now I've already had several people do that.
And now I'm like, okay, wait, I've got to put, got, I don't have an official waiting list,but I'm like, I got to put a pause on accepting invitations until I fill out my agenda and
figure out what sessions I'm attending.
Cause otherwise I'm going to spend the whole time.
doing one -on -one, which actually sounds awesome.
So I don't know.
We'll see where it goes.
But I'm just excited because I was worried that I might be just sitting there at a lonelylittle table waiting for somebody to show up to come talk to me.
(04:14):
So it's not a day.
It's in the BrainDate lounge and what if you're attending, look for me in the BrainDatelounge.
But or actually you need to go onto the site and book the session that way.
But anyway, I'm excited about that.
OK, so I just want to do that brief update.
But let's let's dive into the questions.
So the first question, I'm gonna read this verbatim.
(04:35):
I'm terrible at reading things aloud because of my dyslexia, but bear with me as I attemptto read this.
Here we go.
I'm considering a switch to project management in tech and would love your advice.
For those of you already in the field or with experience, what certifications or programswould you recommend to help me stand out?
Especially since I don't have much practical experience yet.
(04:56):
Any tips or insights would be greatly appreciated.
Okay, so.
have lots of thoughts on this.
I am a current project manager and previously was a project manager and walked away fromit.
So don't know why I'm doing it again.
So I have lots of thoughts about project manager, but I want to start by talking about, sothis person is asking about standing out and asking about certifications and things like
(05:23):
that.
And I want to start by explaining what my concept of, I think that there are two differenttypes of project managers.
I think that there are project managers who came up through the ranks doing whatever thething is.
So I specifically I'm talking about project management and IT.
This question was specifically about project management in tech.
(05:44):
So when I say that, I say that to clarify it, there are different types of their projectmanagers for construction or what.
So I'm specifically talking about in tech, but I think that the first part of what I'mabout to say the type of project manager applies to
any industry, the second part might be specific to tech.
having said that, back to my point, I think there's two different types of projectmanagers.
(06:07):
There are project managers who came through the ranks doing the thing, doing the job.
you know, if we're talking in tech, for me, software engineering, then, you know, you camethrough the ranks as a developer and then maybe, you know, you were a dev manager and then
maybe you came.
became a project manager.
And there's steps in between there.
I'm just saying.
So maybe you came up through the ranks doing the work and then eventually became a projectmanager.
(06:32):
And then there's a different type of project manager who are the certified.
And this is in no way, let me be clear, no shade on PMPs and certified project managers.
I'm just making a distinction here.
And we'll say that I know some very fabulous certified project managers, PMPs.
(06:53):
The thing I'm trying to say is there are the people who are just certified and that soundsbad the way that I'm saying it.
Certification is a big deal.
It costs a lot of money.
It takes time.
It's impressive.
You have to keep up your skills.
You have to get certain credits each year or over X number of years.
So it's a big deal to have a certification.
But there are some project managers who lean heavily on the fact that they're certifiedand don't actually understand the work.
(07:19):
So this is the distinction I'm drawing again.
I'm not trying to put shade on PMPs, which by the way, I said that acronym a few times forthose who don't know.
PMP stands for Project Management Professional, I think.
I'm not even sure.
Obviously, I'm not a PMP because I don't even know what it stands for.
But the PMI .org is a certification organization for certifying project managers.
(07:43):
But so my point is there, think that there are the roll up your sleeves.
I know how to do this.
I could do the work, you know, I could, I could pitch in.
You shouldn't, if you're a project manager, you should not be doing the work, but youknow, they, they, they know enough that they could pitch in and fill it, fill the gap if
necessary.
because they came up through the ranks doing this and they understand the complications.
They understand the work.
(08:03):
And then there are some, and I'm not saying that all certified project managers that itthis way, but there are some that just rely on the fact that, I have, I have a
certification and like, and, and.
They don't necessarily understand the work and is, and that's been my experience as again,when I was a software engineer and, working with the different types of project managers,
I always preferred the project managers, getting tongue tied today.
(08:27):
I always preferred the project managers who understood the work.
And again, should not be rolling up their sleeves and helping, but could if it came to it,because they understood the work just that well.
So having said that.
You are going to get better jobs and more money if you have a certification.
I personally have never, like I say, I was a project manager for years and then went awayfrom it and doing it again for a client.
(09:00):
You're going to get, you're going to get way more money if you have a certification.
I never personally got the certification because for a couple of reasons, again, you've,I'm sure you all are sick of hearing me talk about my dyslexia, but it's.
is very real and test taking is very difficult for me.
And I'm not sure if the certification for PMP is a time test, but especially time tests,time tests are just really, really rough for me.
(09:25):
So I, and yes, these days you can, you can ask for special dispensation if you know, fordyslexia, for neurodivergence.
So I'm sure I could ask for some special dispensation for taking the test for my dyslexia,but it just,
taking test taking is just torturous for me.
And like I say, it's also the PMP certification is expensive and takes time and et cetera,et cetera.
(09:49):
So I never chose it for myself, but I'm not saying that it's not for everyone.
know people who, like I said, I know some really fabulous PMPs.
My point is, I'm making a point, I'm getting to a point here.
My point is in doing the actual work, it's more important to understand the thing thatyou're managing.
So if you are,
(10:10):
a project manager for a software implementation or for a software build, it's importantthat you understand the software development life cycle and methodologies.
if you're doing agile, you understand that.
You need to understand the work and understand the nuances so that when you hit issues or,and, cause you're going to hit, you know, at some point you're going to be either over
(10:34):
budget or, or
over time or you you need to you need to understand the nuances of the work so that whenyou hit those problems you can you can come up with more creative solutions and how to
solve them if you don't understand what it takes so I feel like a good example this Idon't even remember the year that the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare first came out
(10:58):
whatever that year was I remember I was sort of watching it
the story in the news story on folder.
Maybe I read it after the fact, about what happened with, cause it was a data for anybodywho doesn't remember it was a disaster when it first launched.
And I was reading the story about what happened with the project and what happened wasthey kept running out of time or, their, their time kept getting pressed, but they had a
(11:22):
hard deadline.
had a deadline that the website had to launch and it was immovable.
It was a government deadline that had to be met.
And so they kept squeezing different sections of the work and until the point where Ithink they only gave themselves two weeks to do all testing.
for anybody who's a software engineer, I'm talking unit testing, functional testing,integration testing, system testing, performance set.
(11:46):
they gave them so like, because they kept everything kept overrunning and they keptgetting, you know, shorter and shorter on time.
And they just, they just kept compressing the end of the cycle, the software developmentlife cycle, which was the testing phase right before you deploy.
And that is horrible decision.
That is terrible decision making.
But again, you need to understand what all those different types of testing methods that Ijust mentioned are in order to understand how much time you need to do these things.
(12:14):
So you need to understand the work in order to be able to manage it properly.
So my point to the, know, and the answer to the question is yes, know, certifications willhelp you stand out when you're just talking about someone just looking at a resume and
comparing.
to generic resumes to one another, the one with the PMP may stand out.
(12:34):
Some of the job ads for project managers are gonna specifically say that they require aPMP.
But in my opinion, that's less important than understanding how to manage the work.
so finding ways to show that you stand out separate.
let's say you don't have a PMP, highlighting.
(12:56):
projects that you've worked on and the things that you've done on those projects and whatyou understand.
like find other ways to stand out rather than just a certification.
I have a whole other rant I could go on with regard to certifications, which I'm not goingto go on here.
Maybe for, you know, the next time I answer a certification question, I'll get dig intothat.
But I have a whole, I have rants about different things, but I especially have a rantabout certification.
(13:19):
So, so having said that, I just want to wrap up this question.
I would say yes, if you're just talking just
things on LinkedIn or things on a page for a resume.
Somebody's looking at having certifications can help, specifically having a PMP, if you'relooking to do project management for tech.
However, find other ways to stand out.
(13:40):
And ultimately, you know, when you get that interview, it's going to be about talkingabout the work that you've done and how you understand the work that they're trying to do.
Like it's important in the interview to understand the project that they're asking you tocome in to manage.
Cause keep in mind, it's not just about
you answering their questions, they need to answer your questions, right?
So you need to understand exactly what it is they're trying to do.
(14:01):
Are they in the middle of the project?
Are they at the beginning?
Are they behind schedule?
What's going on?
You need to understand all of that.
And even just asking those questions are going to make you stand out because noteverybody, a lot of people, I know the job market is hard right now and a lot of people
are just trying to get a job, right?
So being that thoughtful about it upfront in the interview process is going to actuallyhelp you as well.
(14:24):
All right, I feel like I've gone on too long about answering that question.
So that's the answer to that question.
Let's move on to question number two.
If you had to pick between technical sales or project management, which one would you pickand why?
Now, the interesting thing about this question in the discussion forum, a lot of peoplewere like, random much?
(14:46):
Because they were just like, those two things are not related.
Why are you asking?
I think that the person was in one and thinking of switching to the other or was in acompletely different tech role.
And those were the first for whatever reason, those are the two roles they were thinkingabout switching to.
it's not exactly logical why those two.
(15:08):
It's the question that I saw and I had a lot to say about it because I happen to have doneboth roles.
So we just talked about me and that I've been a project manager for a while, but also I'vedone technical sales.
So I'm gonna start the answer to this one with a little bit of a story.
I'm gonna talk about, you all have heard me talk about my most recent corporate gig, whichwas at New Relic.
(15:29):
I wanna talk about how I got there.
So I had wrapped up, I had just wrapped up, I was a software engineering professor at alocal university.
Well, it's like the third largest, I think in the state, I'm not sure.
I don't remember, anyway.
It's it as I was doing it was a state university.
I was teaching software engineering and it was a contract and the contract ended and I wasI was working on the business.
(15:56):
I had an app that I was thinking about trying to take to production and I was working onsome things and New Relic reached out to me.
The the talent agent talent agent.
It's not like I'm an actress or something where they call talent acquisition.
That's what they call it.
You know, they just call them recruiters, right?
But these days the term is talent acquisition.
So the talent acquisition person for this role reached out to me and said, hey, we werewondering if you'd be interested in interviewing for this technical sales role.
(16:24):
And I was like, no, sorry, wrong number.
I don't do sales.
Like sales is not my thing.
I am not, I'm a little bit too brutally honest.
feel like, even though I had a previous business, have a current business, but I don't, inmy opinion, I don't sell.
talk to people.
just give people facts and let them make decisions.
(16:45):
don't consider myself a salesperson.
So, you know, they call me about specifically a sales role at this corporate, you know,technical company.
And I was like, no, I'm sorry, wrong number.
That's not me.
And I think I completely threw the talent acquisition person, because this was in 2020when, about maybe six months into the pandemic, somewhere between four to six months into
(17:10):
the pandemic when
Everybody was, you everything was shutting down and people were losing jobs and peoplewere pretty desperate.
And so I think for anybody to say no to an interview was probably pretty shocking, but Iwas like, this is not like, I don't just interview for anything that anybody, you know,
asked me to.
I look, I, I feel like I need to be a good fit.
So I was like, no.
(17:31):
and so she was, she was so caught off guard and she was like, well, would you mind justtalking to the hiring manager?
You know, just to,
you know, get a better feel for the role.
And I was like, yeah, sure.
I can tell him no, just same as I told you.
was just like, I was very unbothered.
I was like, yeah, I can talk to him.
It's not a problem, but I can tell him no.
(17:52):
And so initially, so I talked to her, set up the meeting and I talked to him.
And initially, you know, I was like, no, I don't think this is a good fit for me.
But then, and this is the reason that I ended up working there, he was very thoughtfulabout it.
He had
because he had seen found me on LinkedIn and reached out to or he reached out to thetalent acquisition person said, would you reach out to her?
(18:15):
So he had my LinkedIn.
I don't know if he had it.
We were talking on the phone and it wasn't a video call.
So I couldn't see what he was doing, but it seemed like he had my LinkedIn profile up infront of him and he was just reading through.
He's like, well, when you did this, you know, at this company, then, you know, this is howthat plays into this role.
And he basically went through all of my background and said, like how the skills and thethings that I did in previous roles would.
(18:37):
fit into this technical sales role, which was a solution consultant position.
And I was like, whoa, okay.
I was like, I was just so impressed by the fact that he had actually gone like, here's thething, I used to work at Oracle.
And so you see Oracle all over my LinkedIn profile.
(18:59):
And if I'm sending somebody a resume, it's all over my resume.
So I,
Anyway, I get a lot of people who call, who reach out to me about Oracle DBA positions,database administrative positions, or some other Oracle position that is not what I do.
So I get a lot of people who reach out to me and are not, understand what I actually didwith regard to Oracle.
(19:25):
And so the fact that he'd actually, he understood it and he had read it and he hadactually done this like mapping of
this skill applies to this, you know, requirement in the, in the job wreck.
Like, and I was just so impressed that I honestly, I said yes to the interview.
was still not planning on taking the job.
but I was like, I was just, I felt like obligated to, sort of pay back his, his work with,was like, well, at least I could do his interview.
(19:49):
Like, cause he, he did this work and he's been very thoughtful about, you know, mappingout how I would, you know, fit into this role.
So, you know, I'll, I'll go ahead and, and do the interview.
So I did the interview with that.
That's a whole other story.
was a, cause there was a, technical portion of the interview, there was a mistake that wasmade in the information that was sent to me.
(20:10):
And I, was so like, I was given the wrong information and it was so difficult to getthrough because I had all of the wrong instructions.
I thought it was a psychological test cause some companies will do that.
They will, they will intentionally try to stress you out to see how you react to thestress.
So I was, I was like, they're testing me.
I was like, okay, that's fine.
(20:31):
I can pass this like, and then it wasn't until after.
So I obviously ended up taking the position.
made me an offer.
ended up taking the position.
And it was afterwards when I was talking to my, my boss, who was the hiring manager.
And I told him about, you know, the difficulties in the interview, the technical side ofthe interview, and because there was this project that I had to do and he was like, I sent
(20:51):
you the wrong instructor.
Like, so it was not intentional.
Like he just.
accidentally sent me the wrong information.
Plus he sent me information for someone else who was interviewing at the same time who hasa very unique name and I thought it was a fake name.
was like, it was just, it was just, anyway, that's not the point.
So the point of the question, I've gone off topic.
(21:12):
The point of the question was about tech sales versus project management.
So, you know, here's the thing purely based on the numbers, I'd say tech sales becausewell,
There is some uncertainty if you're in sales because sales is a commission commissionbased role However, if you're doing a role like a something like a solutions consultant
(21:37):
with technical sales if it's a decent company They should be offering a floor whichmeaning that they should be offering the lowest Commission that you're gonna get because
the role is because the actual sale there's the technical component of it but then there'sthe actual sales and the
part that's doing the actual sales is going to be the account executive.
The AE is more on the hook for the total sale.
(21:57):
The technical, the solutions consultant, the technical side of it is just demonstratingthe product and or answering technical questions, things like that.
So no matter, like you could do your job really well and still the sale doesn't gothrough.
So it's best.
like said, this was the case at New Relic or at least it was the case when I was in salesat New Relic.
I know they changed their commission structure for over time.
(22:19):
So I'm not sure what it was by the time I left, but
For me, there was a minimum.
I was not going to make anything less than 80 % of my target for a commission, which isgreat.
And you can make, there's no, well, there might be a ceiling, but as far as I knew, therewas no ceiling.
So you could make 150 % or et cetera, et cetera.
But the fact that there was a floor, I was not going to make anything less than 80 % of mycommission was, it provided a stabilizing force.
(22:46):
So I say all that to say that yes, there is a variable component to sales because it'scommission based.
But if you're on the technical sales side, if you're doing a solutions consultant type ofrole, then there should be a little bit more stability than if you're just doing complete,
like if you're an account executive, that's going to be a little bit more volatile.
And because it's commission based and because you can make more than a hundred percent ofyour commission, you're generally going to make more money in technical sales than you
(23:13):
can in project management.
Although depending on the type of project management you do, you can make a lot of moneyin project management too.
like they're, you know, they're a little bit on par, but I think, you know, again, purelybased on numbers, you're going to make more money in technical sales and in project
management.
and it, but they're very, very different roles.
So that's why this question was an interesting one that this person was looking at bothsides.
(23:47):
I just want to talk a little bit about being a project manager though, because again, it'smore than just the money.
also, very different roles.
As a solutions consultant, you're in technical sales, you're demonstrating the product,whatever the thing is, to your potential customers and answering their questions.
depending on, I worked for a SaaS company, SaaS stands for software as a service, forthose who don't know.
(24:12):
So I worked for a SaaS company and so our sales cycle would take, we would do proof ofconcepts and spin up demos and it could take three months to make the sale.
So you're doing a lot of work and it's like little project, each sales like a littleproject that you're doing to sort of convince the customer or show the customer how you
can utilize the product.
(24:35):
So it's very different than project management.
Now, what is project management like?
years ago, I don't know, I don't remember what year it was.
There was a Superbowl commercial that I love and you can still find it on, on YouTube.
I'll give you the, the, the YouTube thing to search or Google thing to search in order tofind it.
But first let me explain it because it'll, if I tell you now it'll give away the, the, theending.
(24:59):
so there was this commercial during the Superbowl where they had these guys that, youknow, they got these cowboys, they're like in the,
long leather dusters and they're on horses and they got their hats and they're all dustyand you know, and they're just in there like, it's like they're interviewing and they're
like, yeah, I've been doing, this has been going on in my family for years.
My, my, my dad did it.
My granddad did it.
Like, like, you know, it's just, they got these deep Southern accents and whatnot andthey're talking and you're thinking like they're herding cattle or something.
(25:24):
And then they, they panic cause they're tight shot on like the faces of these cowboys.
And then maybe just them and their horse, you know, like that's all you see.
And then, and then they pan out and they're herding cats.
Like there's just all these cats just running everywhere and it's just like chaos andthey're trying to hurt these cats and they're and then they're they're showing them like
this one I got this scratch just today, you know They're showing like the all the woundsthat they got from kind of hurt these cats And it was and I don't even the funny thing is
(25:51):
I don't even remember the company that did this This ad but it was about you know,bringing in professionals to do your to manage your projects It was it was a consulting
company and they were talking about bringing in professionals to do the work
So again, so the search that you can do on YouTube or Google is search for Super Bowlhurting cats commercial and you'll find it and it's hilarious.
(26:13):
It's so funny.
That is what project management is like though.
Like that's why I love that commercial so much because that is exactly what it feels like.
And if you have you like if you've ever had a cat ever met a cat ever seen a cat ontelevision, like then you understand how like contrary and how much they do not care what
(26:33):
you want.
from them.
They just, they do not care.
And they just do what they want, you know?
And so yeah, herding cats is very much what it feels like to be a project manager.
That's the, you know, that's the challenge there.
That's the funny part of it.
The downside of it is, you know, in the worst projects and in the projects that are not,or the companies where
(26:59):
that have other issues going on a lot of times, because project managers tend to befemale.
I think this is very much a gender thing that project managers get treated likesecretaries and hey, no shade on secretaries or administrative assistants.
You guys rock.
It's just not the role of a project manager.
know, bless the admins for what they do, but that is not what a project manager is meantto do.
(27:23):
That is not their role.
And so you get...
in these roles where, then sometimes you're like, do you understand what you're paying meas a project manager and you want me to do what?
Like, you you're just like, again, another rant that I could go on that I won't, but mypoint is project managers are not admins.
(27:44):
That's not the intent of the role.
And also, hello, I have a master's degree in computer science, schedule your own damnmeetings.
no.
So, I'm saying too much.
I got to be careful here.
So anyway, my point is that's an interesting question about how do you pick between techsales and project management?
And it really, it's going to depend on you.
(28:06):
It depends on the type of work that you want to do.
If you're very organized and good at keeping people in line, then project management, andthat's where you thrive.
That's where your energy comes from.
Then project management might be for you.
If you love projects and you love a challenge and...
demonstrating to people and educating people, then maybe tech sales is for you.
(28:30):
It's just very different.
And like I say, on the numbers, you're probably going to end up better off in tech salesthan in project management, but it is unstable because of the commission.
you you got to hit your numbers.
So there's added pressure there.
So difficult question to answer.
It's going to depend on, it's completely going to depend on you.
(28:50):
All right, let's move on to the last question for this session or for this particularpodcast episode.
I wanna just take this a moment to remind folks that if you have questions, can, say itagain at the end of the episode, but you can leave us a voicemail at 404 -425 -9862 or
send us a text, or you can reach out to us.
can go to ImperfectGenius .com, reach out to us and send us your questions and you mightget them answered on a future podcast episode.
(29:16):
All right, so.
Last question.
My friends and colleagues say I'm not confident and it shows.
I've been looking for jobs and the interview process proves that my confidence isn't up topar.
Sometimes I feel confident or seem confident, but it doesn't last.
What tips, exercises, or methods do you guys have to increase your confidence?
(29:39):
Okay, so first I want to talk about some of the answers that I saw to this question beforeI provide my answer.
So there was some fake it till you make it.
you know, just even if you don't feel confident, pretend like you're confident until youactually get there.
And there's, I think there's some merit to that advice.
(29:59):
There was one that, one response that I really loved.
It was a keep an accomplishment journal.
you know, write down at the end of the week or daily if you're up for it, but theirrecommendation was weekly so that it didn't feel like it was too overwhelming.
but just write down your accomplishments at the end of each week and then just go back andreview those until, so that you can see the things that you're accomplishing and then
(30:21):
maybe that will help to build your confidence.
I will say I didn't, I never kept an accomplishment journal.
I do keep a gratitude journal.
That's a whole different thing.
But what I used to do, this is something I used to do in corporate America is wheneversomebody would send me a compliment, they would thank me for something or send me a
compliment.
And this was, I used to do customer training.
(30:42):
So I used to get,
feedback a lot.
was part of like part of a big thing of what I was supposed to do is to get feedback sothat I can improve the training for future purposes.
So I would get feedback from customers, but I also would get feedback from othercolleagues that I worked with because I would work with other people on doing training for
their, you know, whatever their particular project was, or I did project management andsome other things.
(31:06):
So I would get feedback from colleagues as well as customers.
And whenever I got compliments, which I
I'm happy to say was often whenever I got compliments, I would take a screenshot of it.
I mean, I would keep it like if it was an email or however I got, like if it was in aSlack message or something like that, I would save it.
But I also would take screenshots of it and I would use it for my reviews.
(31:28):
So in corporate America, you usually have reviews twice a year, maybe once.
It depends on the size of the company.
And we also used to do 360 reviews, which is that you would do, you everybody would, you,
your colleagues will review, your manager will review you, any of your direct reports willreview you.
And so I would save screenshots of things that people said about how I helped them.
(31:51):
And not just a thank you, like these will be people who go into specifics about how Ihelped them achieve X, Y, or Z.
Because one of big thing about reviews is you want to do smart goals.
Are they specific and are they measurable?
Are they attainable?
Are they realistic and time bound?
So whenever somebody was being very specific about the thing that I helped them achieve,then, you know, I would include that in my review.
(32:13):
Like I did, you know, I was able to help this person accomplish this and, know, itshortened this, timeframe on this by this much.
So anyway, so I love, that's why I love the idea of doing an accomplishment journal.
That sounds like a great idea.
There was another one that was basically like dance it out at Grey's Anatomy style.
Love that.
It was like just before you, you're going to going into an interview or whatever, just,you know, put on your favorite music and just.
(32:35):
dance like crazy and dance it out until you're just in such a good mood and you got thoseendorphins flowing.
And then go into the interview.
Love that idea.
There were several, you know, lots of feedback about working on improving your self-esteem.
That's easier said than done.
You can't just tell somebody to be confident or, you know, yes, you can work on it.
I agree that work saying work on your self -esteem is actionable feedback, but it's just,it's a tough thing to do.
(33:03):
And then, the one that just drove me up a wall, it started with, it sounds like you'resuffering from imposter syndrome.
So, again, I ranted on the last podcast episode about, I've got lots of thoughts aboutimposter syndrome.
Not gonna get into that here because I'm gonna be talking about it post the conference.
I just wanna say one thing though, imposter syndrome is not, because they literallystarted the...
(33:28):
the response with, sounds like you're suffering from imposter syndrome.
Like it sounds like you're suffering from erectile dysfunction.
It's not a medical thing.
It's a made up phenomenon by two psychologists who were just studying their upper andmiddle -class white patients and students.
It's not a medical diagnosis is my point.
Again, I'm not going to go on my rant here, but it's not a medical condition.
(33:51):
It's not a mental disorder.
Imposter syndrome is a made up thing.
I realized that a lot of things are made up by psychologists.
I don't mean that came out wrong.
What I mean by that is at some point a lot of medical mental disorders were originallystudied by psychologists and became a thing.
I'm saying if you look it up and I forget what the name of that book is or the list of allof the mental disorders, imposter syndrome is not in that book.
(34:17):
It's not a thing.
It's not a medical condition.
Anyway, again.
more on that later when I talk about the conference and sort of the conversations that wehad there.
So again, I want to answer this one with a little bit of a story.
So this is because it's always because I get this question from there.
(34:40):
There's several women in tech that I mentor.
And even if I don't mentor them, I used to be part of a group of women of color in tech.
that, you know, we would have lunch and learns and different things that we would talkabout.
so confidence and, and this type of thing came up a lot.
And it's tough for me because I've been doing, I've been in tech for so long and it's notlike I'm like so old.
(35:07):
don't remember back in the day, but I just been in, I've been in tech for so long.
It's tough for me to remember what it was like early on.
And also I feel like I started,
I feel like I started in a very different place in a different way.
So I'm going to tell a little bit of story about how I started in tech.
(35:27):
So I was in high school.
I went to a high school that would be considered a magnet school now, a cast tech, shoutout to cast technical high school in Detroit, Michigan.
so I don't think they called it that back then.
I'm old enough y 'all.
I don't remember what it was called back then.
Magnet school was seems like a term that came along later.
but it was a school where you had to declare a major.
And so I majored in computer programming in high school.
(35:49):
And so my first job ever, because my mother wouldn't let me get just like a regular oldjob, like working at McDonald's or Blockbuster or something like that.
so my first job was when I got an internship doing Fortran programming at the GeneralMotors Technical Center in Warren, Michigan, because that was the first job my mother was
like, yeah, you, that you could do.
so that was my first job at age 15 doing, Fortran programming for GM.
(36:13):
And I was doing graphics and craft simulation and it was just me and my supervisor.
And he just, he, we were working on this project and we had to do a presentation at the,and I started, was working through the school year and throughout the summer.
And at the end of the summer, we were supposed to do this presentation to the engineersand, and this is, we're talking in the eighties.
(36:33):
So the engineers were all old white men or older white men.
So we're supposed to be doing this presentation to them on the status of the project atthe end of the summer.
But my supervisor who was Indian.
He went back to India for a month and he's like, you can do it.
You can do it.
You'll be fine.
Like he left me at 15 year old to do this presentation to these.
(36:55):
I'm sorry.
Let me clarify a 15 year old little black girl.
He left me to do this presentation to these old white men for general, know, at generalmotors on this, this crash simulation program we were doing.
And I was like, wait, what, excuse me.
I like, is that legal?
Like I'm only 15.
Like, I don't know.
was.
I mean, it wasn't illegal.
I'm just saying like it just felt very not right.
(37:17):
Luckily, I was studying at this at this magnet school.
I was also studying communications and or and I was taking a a what am I trying to publicspeaking course.
So I had that that skill set in my back pocket, thankfully, because otherwise I would havejust been like a total like tech geek, just like programmer.
Like, you don't put that.
Well, that's that's mean.
(37:38):
But that's that was the mentality of when I was coming up in my early careers.
tech people, just sort of brought them in the back door and you didn't introduce them tothe client because they didn't have social skills.
So my point was I had the public speaking to balance out the tech geek side of, and plusI'm super introvert.
So it was, I had those skills to balance it out.
(37:59):
My point is when you start off at age 15 doing something like that,
By the time you graduate college and in my case, you know, get a graduate degree and thengo out into the world and start working.
By the time I got to that point, I mean, I dared anybody to question my right to be in theroom, right?
So it's hard for me to give advice on how to be more confident because I think it justcomes from the doing.
(38:31):
Like, don't think about, I think,
And I feel like my advice would be, don't think about the other people.
Like, cause that's where I think the lack of confidence in an interview might come from isthat you're thinking, no, I don't measure up to these people.
And this goes, this does go back to imposter syndrome again, more on that later.
But you might be thinking that you're not good enough, which is why I titled my talk goodenough.
(38:56):
You might be thinking you're not good enough.
You don't measure like what they've already got this job or they're the senior managerhere or the vice president or it depends on what the role is you're interviewing for.
but the point is don't think about them.
Think about yourself, your skills, what you want, what type of role you want to be in,whether or not this, again, you should be asking questions and like you should be grilling
(39:18):
them just as hard as they're grilling you.
You should be asking questions about what this role is, what this company is, whether ornot you're going to fit in there.
So if you're thinking about yourself, and so basically I'm saying be a little bit selfish.
If you're thinking about yourself and what you're gonna get out of this, you're gonna haveless time to worry about how you're coming across.
Now, I'm not saying don't be professional.
(39:40):
And professional, I know that means different things to different people, people who lookdifferent than me.
Don't think about that either.
Don't worry about, I'm in this room, like, especially if you're doing a panel interviewand you're looking, you know, whether it's on Zoom or you're across the table from four or
(40:00):
five people who don't look anything like you, don't let that get in your head.
Don't play that game.
Cause actually, you know what?
If you're in that situation, you need to be asking about diversity at that company.
need to be digging, losing my voice.
You need to be digging into,
looking at the stats at that company to see if you're going to be, you know, all alone,which you still may be, especially if you're working in tech, but you need to be digging
(40:27):
into that company.
And that's what should be in your head, not, no, I don't belong here, but wait a minute,where are the rest of the people of color?
And why am I the only one in this room right now?
So, so my point is, I think, I feel like if you just focus on the work of understandingthe role,
(40:47):
and explaining how you can meet that role, how you can excel in that role.
And if you just explain that and don't think about, am I good enough?
I feel like that's kind of a little bit of a cop -out answer, but I do think it couldhelp.
Like I said, I like the other answers too, like the accomplishment journal and things likethat.
(41:09):
And yeah, know what, psych yourself up.
Speaking of Grey's Anatomy, there was, I don't remember,
Amelia, Amelia Shepherd, one of the characters on Grey's Anatomy.
She would before a big surgery, she was brain surgeon, and before a big surgery, she wouldstand in front of a mirror and in the superhero pose.
I think there's like some psychology around this that she was standing, like just sort ofstanding in that, you know, hands on hips and looking up in the air, like sort of like
(41:37):
Superman pose.
And she would stand.
There's some psychology about how long you have to stand that way.
But there was just something that apparently gives you confidence about standing that way.
Or, you know, wear your secret favorite t -shirt, you know, like I have a shirt that says,I'm a big Marvel fan and I have a shirt that says, I am Iron Man.
And I remember I was doing, and it's from the end game, it's that I am Iron Man, not theone from the beginning of the story arc.
(42:04):
And I had, there was something I was doing, I don't remember what it was, but I wore thatshirt under a blazer or under, you know, something else.
Cause I just wanted that, like I wanted that in my head that I am Iron Man, like I can dothis.
You know, I can take out Thanos.
So, so yeah.
So, so do the things that you need to, to psych yourself up and before you even go inthere.
(42:24):
And then again, don't think about them.
Think about yourself and what you're trying to get out of it.
And I think maybe, maybe that can help.
I don't You guys tell me, I'd love to hear some feedback.
So again, so stay tuned.
Thank you for listening as always, as again, if you want to leave a question, you canleave us a voicemail at 404 -425 -9862, or you could text us.
(42:45):
You can reach out to us at imperfectgenius .com as well.
can visit subscribe .imperfectgenius .com to subscribe to our newsletter or receive a copyof our show notes.
You can reach us on social media at askimperfectgenius.
And also if you're interested in joining a community of vibrant and supportive black andbrown women, women of color on the same path, then head over to community .imperfectgenius
(43:07):
.com and join us there.
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
that
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