November 21, 2024 • 40 mins
In this Throwback Thursday episode, host Rachel Foster revisits her journey of trademarking "Imperfect Genius" and shares the lessons learned along the way. She discusses the challenges she has encountered during the trademarking process and emphasizes the importance of conducting thorough research, hiring professionals, and being adaptable in the face of setbacks. The episode concludes with an update on her current trademark status and offers encouragement for aspiring entrepreneurs.
We are planning another Q&A episode. Do you have burning questions? Contact us at (404) 425-9862 or on social media @askimperfectgenius.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:11):
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps Black women thrive by providingtechnical advice on effectively navigating the business development journey and offering
advice to all women on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Hey, everybody.
Since we had several episodes in a row that were specifically tech-focused due to myparticipation in the Grace Hopper celebration,
(00:37):
I wanted to release an episode for my aspiring entrepreneurs to let you know that Ihaven't forgotten about that segment of the listening audience.
So what I decided to do is I decided to release this content that was originally plannedto be a bonus episode, which was recorded with former assistant producer Emma Burgin At
the time that I'm recording this intro, it is a year to the day since I've submitted myresignation from my last corporate job.
(01:04):
And the events that are described in this episode that you're gonna hear in a minute, it'sa year to the day since those events happened, because it was on the day that I resigned
from my last corporate job.
So what you're gonna hear in this episode is a story about my trademarking journey.
And I teased this a little bit in episode 11 when I interviewed my trademark attorney,Ruky Tajani.
But I decided I would, again, because I had so many tech-focused episodes in a row, Idecided that I would release this content.
(01:33):
generally as opposed to saving it as a bonus episode.
So let's take a listen.
Okay, so I think it might be important for this particular topic to start with a littlebit of background about my company, RL Foster Incorporated, which is technically my second
(01:55):
company.
I previously had another corporation when I owned a franchise.
But so this particular company, I started in 2015 when I was working as a contractor forAT&T.
I was corp to corp.
So basically I was just working for myself and billing them for my time.
pan myself, whatever I felt like pan myself.
(02:16):
So it existed back then and I created it specifically for that reason.
It's a long story.
I can tell that a different day of why I chose to do that.
But so when I left AT&T, it was, I'm using air quotes here, listeners can't see it, justletting you know, it was to retire.
I was going to retire and go teach software engineering at the college level.
(02:40):
But I didn't close the business because I really wanted to, I knew at some point in time,I wanted to use this company as a vehicle for income in retirement.
And so I left it open.
kept paying me the business registration, license fees, insurances, everything.
So basically it was still open.
I just wasn't necessarily earning any kind of regular income.
(03:02):
And the reason I say regular income is because I was doing a sort of like side gigs, Iwould
when people needed help with something like they needed a website or they needed help withanything technical, I would help them out and charge them a nominal rate because I was
working a full-time job.
So it wasn't my lifeline.
So I left it open, but it had been relatively stagnant since about 2018.
(03:25):
And it wasn't until about like last year.
So time of this recording is 2023.
was 2022 that we are we.
Me, that's the royal we by the way, Emma.
Me, myself, and I.
That's when we, yes, exactly.
When the royal we started thinking about rebranding.
(03:47):
And so the old name that I'd originally come up with, I actually came up with that in 2022before I knew what this brand was going to be, which is what it is now.
But I feel like for the listeners sake, because I'm not sure.
knowledge level and we're talking to people who are getting into business ownership andentrepreneurship.
(04:09):
I want to talk about the difference between the legal entity name, a trade name and atrademark.
So my legal entity, so my company is a corporation.
So you can have a sole proprietorship, you can have an LLC, you can have a C Corp and SCorp.
And S Corp is basically, it's just a tax treatment.
So a corporation is a corporation, but you can have an S classification, which is aspecial type of taxing.
(04:33):
which is meant, know, S is for small business, but, I'm not a tax accountant, so I can'texplain all of the logistics, but just know that mine is a, corporation, it's an S-corp,
which is the same as a C-corp, except from a taxation perspective.
So my legal entity name is RL Foster Incorporated, but you can have a trade name.
(04:55):
So for example, let's say that you're going to own a Dairy Queen.
So you might have Burgin Incorporated as your corporate name, right?
But then you're doing business as Dairy Queen number XYZ.
So for example, my old business, it was a different corporation's different corporationname was the Knowledge Trust Incorporated, but I was doing business as Computer Tots and
(05:18):
Computer Explorers number 224 because it was a franchise.
So that's your trade name.
So you have your legal end and you don't have to have a trade name.
It's just that usually your corporation name is a better example and or another examplethat people I think can relate to Google originally when it started and it's changed a
little bit over time, but Google, the parent company is called ABC incorporated.
(05:41):
Some people may know that or not ABC, it's Alphabet Incorporated.
And so they were doing business as Google.
And then later they ended up because they when they started buying up a bunch of differentcompanies, they ended up
creating a subsidiary and they created an LLC called Google LLC that's a wholly ownedsubsidiary of Alphabet Incorporated.
So the point is, the name that people know you by, is it necessarily your actual legalcorporate name that you file your taxes under per se?
(06:11):
legal entity name, trade name.
Kind of like how you have some friends who have their given name, but they go by adifferent nickname and until you have to travel with them or fill out a comp-
like a serious government document.
You're like, wait, what's your name?
Wait, that's your name.
Yeah, exactly.
That is a great analogy.
That is a perfect analogy.
Exactly.
(06:32):
So that's legal entity name and trade name, but neither of those is trademark.
a trademark is, So, and the example, I'll use the example that my trademark attorney usesall the time.
Nike, three well-known trademarks with regard to Nike.
There's the name Nike, which is trademarked.
(06:53):
There's the swoosh, you know, the, and for the listeners, I'm actually drawing the swooshin the air as if you can see it, but there's the swoosh, which is actually a trademark.
It's a, it's an image or a, an icon or I'm not even sure what the word is, that you couldtrademark.
And then there's just do it.
Their phrase, just do it.
So you can trademark all of those things.
And again, we're going to have an episode at the time of this recording.
(07:16):
I'm not sure which episodes would have aired.
This is a behind the scenes episode.
We're going to have an episode with my trademark attorney who can explain this in waybetter terms than me.
So the reason I bring that all up is to say when I started the business in 2015, it was RLFoster Incorporated.
And when I started doing side, you know, sort of like these side consulting on the side, Icreated a trade name, which I don't even know if I want to say it.
(07:41):
was such a dumb trade name, but I had a trade.
I had a different trade name.
And so I was literally billing, you know, corp to corp billing AT&T as RL Fosterincorporated invoicing them.
But then when I was just doing this sort of side gig, when I would send invoices or billpeople for like individuals, people that I was helping, I would use this trade name and
that was the name on my, my bank account.
(08:03):
So anyway, so, but I never had a trademark, but when I started talking about, or startedthinking about rebranding this and building what it is today, which is providing
technology coaching for entrepreneurs and career advice for women in technology.
And I started thinking about what I wanted the business to be, because I'm sliding intoretirement and I was thinking, okay, what do want the business to be long-term?
(08:26):
I was fairly certain that I wanted something that I could trademark and could do all kindsof things with, whether it's, know, retreats or, you know, logos, t-shirts, journals, you
know, as well as, you know, all of the social media handles and everything else in theonline courses and all that.
I wanted to be able to trademark the name.
So I started, I had this idea that I was going to, I was going to trademark some stuff.
(08:49):
And I had got some really good advice from a very popular podcast host who said, you knowwhat, when I tried to trademark, cause I was going to do this myself.
I was like, I got a subscription with Rocket Lawyer.
I was like, I'm a smart person.
I can look up the rules.
I'm fine.
I don't need any help.
can handle this.
Yup.
Exactly.
I've got this.
(09:11):
You know how we are as women, we tend to take everything on.
We think we can do everything.
So I was just planning on doing it myself.
before we get into what happened with the trademarking, I just wanted to provide thatbackground so that people could understand the difference between a legal entity name, a
(09:31):
trade name, which you register with your local, like you register with your county.
It's not necessarily even statewide, much less...
Countrywide or worldwide.
It's just something you register locally so that you don't have two people in the samecounty that doing business under the same name.
And then there's trademark, which is a whole different ball of wax.
So I just wanted to explain that.
(09:52):
Excellent.
Okay.
So now we've got those three terms in our head and you had this corporate entity and youwanted to rebrand it in order to take the company into a different direction.
as you enter this next phase of business and work and, and helping women in tech.
How did that go, Rachel?
What went wrong?
What went right?
(10:12):
What lessons did you learn?
How'd that work out for you?
Okay, so what had happened was, no, I'm just kidding.
So really though, honestly, officer, what happened was, there was this deer that ranacross the road.
Anyway, no, seriously.
(10:32):
So I remember earlier when I said,
you know, I thought I was a smart person that I could do all this on my own.
That's the short version of what went wrong.
But, you know, for the sake of the listeners, let's get into a little bit more detail thanjust, you know, I thought I could do everything myself and I was wrong.
A couple different things.
(10:53):
So to start with, I ignored the warning signs.
So what I mean by that is I done my research and yet I had this name in my mind.
I'd even drawn sketches and had all these ideas.
And, and when I started thinking, okay, I'm going to rebrand this business and this iswhat I'm going to do.
I was like, okay, now I'm getting serious.
Let me look and see if anybody else has this name.
(11:13):
And so I did, I didn't just, you know, I wasn't a complete bull in a China shop and justdidn't just run with it.
I did some initial research.
but I didn't because I, am not an expert in this field and I did not know.
what to do with that research, so to speak.
So I found someone who had a similar name and I thought that my name was different enoughthat it didn't matter.
(11:38):
And also because that person didn't have the domain name, they didn't have any of thesocial media handles.
didn't have anything like there.
I was like, okay, this is good.
And I think I even, might've even, cause I remember doing a search of the trademark, the,USPT.
I'm always good.
I'm dyslexic.
I always get this wrong.
USPTO, US Patent and Trademark Office.
(12:00):
Yes, USPTO.
I think I even did a USPTO trademark search and found that person.
But again, because their name was different, it wasn't exactly the same.
It was similar, but not exactly the same.
I thought, I'm good.
So that's the first thing I did wrong.
Yeah.
And I remember you talking to me about that when you had done that research.
You were like, look, this is similar, but there's enough difference.
(12:22):
We're going to be fine.
And also I think if I recall correctly, it's
was set to expire like pretty soon after you were looking to register your own name.
Honestly, the time of this recording, think it was set to expire like two days ago.
I was like, it doesn't matter.
It's going to expire soon.
(12:43):
Yeah, it seemed like one small little red flag where there was a tiny bit of overlap inthe Venn diagram, but there were enough things pointing to us, you being able to use this
name and us being able to move forward.
Yes, exactly.
So that leads us to number two, which is in terms of what went wrong.
I am not a trademark expert.
(13:04):
I don't know trademark law.
I don't work with the USPTO on a regular basis.
Like I did not know what I did not know.
So here, you know, here's me trying to pretend.
I can't, it's not even like I was trying to pretend, but I just thought I'm a smartperson.
I can figure this all out, but I don't know.
Again, I didn't know what I didn't know.
I'm not a trademark, you know, attorney.
don't.
deal with the USPTO on a regular basis.
(13:26):
just, I just was foolish basically.
So that was number two.
And then the third thing I did wrong is I just jumped in with both feet.
I was just like, okay, this is the name.
I'm going with it.
I'm creating a logo.
I'm getting the domain name.
I'm going to go get all the social media handles.
I started creating a website and it wasn't even just a simple, like I, I started off witha basic template.
(13:51):
And again, I'm going to do all kinds of content around.
creating websites, so more details on designing websites for your business.
But I started with a basic template because I hate starting from scratch, but I wanted allthese like bells and whistles or certain things or colors in a certain way and layout in a
certain way.
So I started doing coding.
So I spent hours, hours upon hours upon hours working on this website.
(14:16):
And what's even worse of all of that?
not only that, I disseminated that logo, the domain name.
I was telling everybody, yeah, got this, this, I'm going to have this new blog, this newwebsite, this new podcast.
And I'm telling everybody the name I'm sending everybody.
Do you remember when I sent you the cover image for the podcast?
And I was like, isn't this cool?
Beautiful, beautiful image with the, the now defunct name of this company that shall neversee the light of day.
(14:45):
Unfortunately.
Yes, unfortunately it was a beauty.
was a beautiful cover image.
So I did all of that, but even worse, and I'm so thankful for my trademark attorneybecause I was this close and for the listeners, I'm showing the little pinching my fingers
together, very close together.
(15:05):
I was this close to announcing it worldwide, well, not worldwide, but pretty broadlybecause I was going to be on a LinkedIn live event with the job father and talking
specifically about
being black in tech and it was gonna that that particular LinkedIn live event was going tobe replayed during Afro tech, which for those who don't know is a huge tech conference for
(15:30):
black people in tech.
Very huge.
I'm talking, talking, I don't even know what the attendance is like 30,000, 50,000.
I don't know.
It's huge.
It's huge.
And this was this LinkedIn live event was going to be replayed during Afro tech.
And I was planning at the end of the event when they were like,
you know, doing the wrap up and is there anything you want to, you know, say to the folksor, know, anything you want to publicize?
(15:51):
I was going to announce my website with this name that, you know, like turns out Icouldn't use.
But anyway, so I was going to announce it.
I was just planning to do all these things and I happened to have a meeting with mytrademark attorney.
I want to say like a week or two before that event was going to happen.
And I told her I was planning to do that and she was like,
(16:12):
hold off.
She's like, let me, let me do my job first and let me do my due diligence and you know,let me come back to you before you do that.
So, and I was like, well, but that's just such a great opportunity.
She's like, well, what you can say instead, which again, I'm very grateful to her.
She said, well, what you can say instead is follow me on LinkedIn and you know, look foran update from me soon.
(16:32):
You know, just don't say the name.
Exciting.
Yeah, exactly.
Exciting news coming soon, but just whatever you do, don't say the name because I have notgiven you clearance to use that name yet.
And I'm thinking she's being overly precautious.
You know, I'm just like, is that a word?
Precaution?
Yes.
Overly cautious.
(16:53):
My brain just went, I don't know.
Okay.
I'm having a brain moment anyway.
So I just thought she was just being, I was like, she's being a lawyer lawyer.
She's, she's, she's lawyering me right now.
You know, know how lawyers are.
you got to be very careful.
So I'm like, okay, but I listened.
Thankfully, my God, thankfully I listened to her.
(17:13):
Anyway, that's when, so that takes us all to what finally ended up happening on the day.
So this was weeks after the LinkedIn live event.
was, and again, Emma, you can attest to this.
I was getting pretty impatient, like waiting to hear back from my trademark attorney.
Yes, because at this point in time, just like as another peek behind everything, Racheland I had,
(17:35):
planned on already having several episodes recorded.
had planned on posting them and hopefully to get things going.
So even though it was just the two of us working on this podcast, we felt like we were acouple of months behind from our plan and the timetable.
(17:56):
We were both a little bit frustrated, but Rachel, obviously more so because this is yourbusiness.
This is something you've been dreaming about for over a year now at this point.
And it felt like this one little thing that was definitely going to go our way.
both felt like it was, we were just waiting for the last check mark from this lawyer andlike, why can't we go?
but thankfully we didn't.
(18:16):
And I was, and I think I told you, didn't I tell you, I was like, I'm just going to goahead and post the website.
Cause the website had been created, but hadn't been published.
I was like, I'm just going to go ahead and publish it.
We can start recording.
Start.
was like, Emma, start booking the guests.
We are ready to go.
done waiting.
Yeah.
(18:50):
So fast forward to the day, literally the day that I resigned from my job.
So let me just sort of set up the scene because this is important.
So that particular day, I was going to be teaching a workshop for some students inCalifornia, some 18 to 25 year old students.
I was going to be doing a workshop for Hack the Hood.
(19:12):
So because they're in California and they were students and we wanted to do this workshopafter they were out of school.
or after their classes, it was going to be in the evening.
So it was going to be beginning at 7 PM my time, because I'm on the East Coast.
So I was going to have to work until about 9 PM.
So for that reason, instead of because I would normally start my workday at 9 AM, insteadof starting at 9, I decided to start at noon.
(19:33):
So that particular day was my whole schedule was shifted.
So I started work, my nine to five job at noon and submitted my resignation.
I attended my resignation at noon that day.
And so I had my lunch break.
at four and I'm using air quotes because it's lunch break before o'clock, but it's becauseof a shifted day.
So I had my lunch break at four and I had a meeting with my trademark attorney during mylunch break.
(19:58):
I don't even remember how the, so initially we were just talking about some things and wewere covering like the classifications that I would want to register under.
And again, this is more trademark talk that look for that episode with my trademarkattorney, Ruky Dajani.
anyway, so it's
It wasn't even like the very first thing we talked about.
(20:19):
was like maybe 10 minutes into the call that finally she's like, okay, so I completed mycomprehensive search with regard to your name.
And unfortunately, I found something that will prevent you from moving forward with thatname.
And I'm just like, wait, what, what is she talking about?
And she's like sharing her screen.
is like, yeah, exactly.
(20:40):
Like, excuse me, I'm sorry.
What?
What did you just say to me?
and so she's sharing her screen and she's sharing this report with me and she's showing itbasically.
then when she, she scrolls to this, you know, she's going through this big, I don't evenremember this big report.
She gets to this guy that I found earlier.
Remember I told you earlier in my research, I'd found this, this, you know, person who hadthis name.
(21:04):
And I'm thinking to myself, I know it, cause she even goes to the website and I'm like, Iknow that website.
I've seen that website.
Like that's not supposed to be a problem.
He doesn't have the domain.
It like, like, so she's like, she's sharing with me.
that I can't use this name because of this thing that I found before.
But in my head, I'm like, but no, I've already disqualified him.
Like he doesn't count, you know, but again, don't, because I don't know what I don't know.
(21:28):
and so she had to explain to me the concept of remarkably similar, that if there is apossibility for there to be confusion in the marketplace, if there's two businesses that
are similarly named and the consumer.
might confuse one for the other, then you can't have the same name.
like if I wanted to have a, like if my last name was McDonald and I wanted to have Foster,you know, or like I'm saying my last name, my real last name, my fake last name, but let's
(21:57):
just say like I wanted to have something like Mc, what you're gonna say?
I was gonna say RL McDonald incorporated or McDonald incorporated.
Yeah, RL McDonald burgers, you know, burger shop.
People could confuse that with regular McDonald's.
So you can't, that was a really terrible example, but.
I think you get the gist.
You cannot have two things.
Thank you.
(22:17):
So you can't have two things that are remarkably similar if they're in the same industry.
mind you, if I wanted to have R.O.
McDonald's shoe company, that's fine.
Cause I'm not selling burgers, right?
You know, so again, it doesn't matter.
But I didn't know this.
So she's explaining this to me.
so it's slowly, as she's explaining this all to me, it's slowly sinking in.
(22:38):
Cause at first I was just in denial.
I was just like, she's wrong.
Cause I've already seen that and I've already disqualified that.
and so anyway, so basically I, I don't even remember the rest of that call.
Like I just kind of shut down, out.
(22:58):
I wasn't even like a conscious thing.
I just was in my brain going through all of the things that all the time and the moneythat I had spent up until that point on that.
Right.
Previous name.
Luckily for me, she recorded that Zoom conversation because I did not hear the rest ofwhat she said.
And at the end, she, and I, you know, I'll wrap this, this part up by saying that onething that she said to me, she said, well, how are you feeling?
(23:26):
What are you thinking?
And I said, I'm thinking, I wish you had told me this before I quit my job this morning.
Cause I'm like, I don't even know what's next.
And so, you know, and I, I
I sort of said that to her and she said, she was like, no, we're not going to do that.
She's like, this is just a minor bump in the road.
We're going to do a brand pivot.
And she started explaining to me like the process of brand pivot.
(23:49):
this, again, this is the stuff that I did not hear because I was just in shock.
but the thing that was very beneficial for me was the fact that I had that workshop laterthat night because I literally couldn't
I was kind of spiraling on the call.
wrapped up the call.
(24:10):
I asked her to send me the video because I knew I hadn't heard some of the stuff she said.
And then I was like, I don't have time to stress about this because I have to go prep forthis workshop.
This was not like a frou frou.
Yeah, I didn't have time to spiral and I was going to be teaching Python.
So like it was, I needed to focus.
Like I could not just, you know, phone it in.
Like I was going to be doing an advanced Python course with these students.
(24:33):
So I was like, I can't, I don't have time to do it.
I, I,
put that out of my mind, I prepped for my workshop, taught the workshop.
And after the workshop, which ended, like I say, around 9 PM, I just went to sleep.
was like, I can't process.
I just went to sleep.
And that was actually good because I woke up the next morning and I feel like a part ofthis, you know, speaking of entrepreneurship and black women, I feel like, you know, there
(24:59):
is a burden and a blessing for being a black woman in this society because the burden is
we're always having to trudge through, we're always having to find a way.
Like we're always having to just figure out, know, we have roadblock after roadblock afterroadblock and we have to figure out a way around it.
So it just sort of becomes ingrained in you.
And I don't even want to say it's in our DNA.
I think a part of it is in our DNA, but I think it's more societal that, you know, it'sjust, we tend to have a harder time.
(25:25):
And so we just have to keep trudging through.
So I woke up the next morning and I was like, okay, I got a plan.
All right, here's what I'm going to do.
Like I just.
I just formulated a plan.
Okay, I'm going to port the code for their website to a new domain and I'm going to do,and I'm going to, I just, woke up the next morning and I had a plan and that sort of, and
(25:46):
that plan helped us get to where we are now.
So it's, I'm so happy you woke up with that.
That's amazing.
Also, I've, I've heard this story from you a couple of times.
And one thing that always stands out is, and I think that our listeners could, could takefrom this as well is how thoughtful.
It is that your trademark attorney recorded that meeting because she probably knew thatonce she gave you that bad news, you were going to check out.
(26:10):
So potentially, especially if you're working with clients and you're obviously the expertin what you're doing and they don't know, and you have to deliver some bad news based off
of your knowledge or your expertise, as long as it's not sensitive information, if you canrecord that and then they can go back and rewatch that later with a cooler head and then
formulate some
(26:31):
plans of actions or some additional questions to come back to you with at a later point intime.
That's a really thoughtful, I want to say gift or like it's a really thoughtful thing todo for people when you're delivering bad news.
No, I think that's a really good observation.
That's a really good point.
And I will say, cause you mentioned, you know, as long as it's not sensitive information.
(26:54):
In this case, she's my attorney and she's on retainers.
So we have attorney client privilege anyway.
So it was sensitive, but as long as she's not sharing it with someone else, she's sharingit with me, it's okay for me to go back and watch that.
Right.
Excellent.
That's a good point as well.
Okay.
So that is how we got to where we are now.
And I guess Rachel, the next thing I would want to know is what are your takeaway?
(27:17):
yeah, let's pause.
No, I just wanted to add,
The other thing I want to say just for the listeners and to fully pull the curtain back isjust so that you all know, at the time that we're recording this behind the scenes
podcast, we still don't know what the name of the podcast is.
Just FYI.
Which might sound a little crazy because there was an intro where we talked about thetitle, but we are recording this middle part where we're describing the situation while
(27:46):
we're still in the middle of the naming situation.
So, Rachel's actually, I believe you're having a meeting with your attorney tomorrow.
Right?
Yes.
Yes, I am.
Possibly.
should.
I should mention.
might learn the name tomorrow.
Yes, this is true.
I should mention again, for those who are, you know, taking notes or and, you know, we'llsend out show notes.
(28:09):
We'll talk about that in the outro at the end of the podcast.
But for those of you who are following along, just know that, you know, when you do thisbrand pivot,
part of it is you come up with your alternate names.
And I had to come up with three alternate names.
And so I'm meeting with my trademark attorney tomorrow to see if any of these three havelegs to last and whether or not we can move forward with them.
(28:33):
So I'm sorry, I just wanted to add that you were saying something.
right.
Fingers crossed.
Okay.
So now that everybody's kind of caught up to speed on all of that, Rachel, what are yourtakeaways if you were to talk to yourself like four or five months ago?
when you were just starting out this journey of looking into the name and give yourselfsome counsel, what would you say, what should folks in the position you were in a few
(28:55):
months ago keep in mind and try to do as they're thinking of brand names?
Obviously acknowledging that if there's a name or a word in a language, it's been used insome sort of brand name to form some type of company.
So it is really, really difficult to come up with a unique and catchy
(29:17):
name for new businesses that people are starting these days.
It's so hard because everything, I mean, again, Emma, you were there, like we were justsearching all kinds of things and everything was taken already.
So my takeaways, good question.
First, I mean, do your research and your due diligence, which I did.
(29:38):
So I would say take notes.
So when I did my research in my due diligence, I didn't write down, you know, when I foundthat guy that had a similar name, I didn't write it down.
didn't take notes on it.
I just sort of dismissed them in my head.
So do your research, do your due diligence, take notes, but also hire a professional.
If you are not an expert in that thing, then, you know, it's so here's the analogy I liketo use when I.
(30:05):
first bought my house and I was used to do little things around the house all the time.
And one thing that I did, I installed a ceiling fan by myself.
And let me tell you how hard it is to install a ceiling fan by yourself because you haveto hold the motor while you're trying to screw the, like connect the wires.
And it's just so hard.
And after I was done, I was like, I will never again do that.
(30:25):
I was like, I will hire a professional.
So there's been several times when I've done something in my house, whether it waspainting or whatever.
And it was so...
difficult or I had a problem with XYZ.
And I was like, you know what?
In the future, I will hire a professional.
So if you are not a professional in that thing, especially when it comes to something liketrademark law, hire a professional.
(30:45):
So hire a trademark attorney.
But I confess and admit that that, you know, maybe I may be saying that from a point ofprivilege.
Not everybody can afford attorneys.
Attorneys are expensive.
I would argue.
And I'm sure that when we get to the episode we're talking to,
rookie about trademarking, she's probably going to ask the question, what's the cost ofnot doing it?
(31:09):
And there's a really good couple of good examples about people not trademarking and thenwhat they lost out on in terms of revenue later.
So think about that too.
having said that, knowing that attorneys are expensive, maybe that's not an option foryou.
If you can't hire an attorney,
take classes, watch videos, read blogs, do whatever you need to do to familiarize yourselfwith the details.
(31:32):
Because if you're gonna try to do that on your own, you need to know the rules.
need to know, because the trade, I think I don't think I mentioned earlier, the trademarkprocess is, it's getting longer and longer because there's so many people trying to
trademark everything.
Cause you can trademark a hashtag.
Did you know you could trademark a hashtag?
know, like, well, so along those lines.
(31:52):
Again, one of the lessons learned that I know from listening to a podcast, another podcastwith my trademark attorney on it, the Black Lives Matter movement, the founders of Black
Lives Matter never trademarked that.
And by the time they, you know, it was popular and they wanted to trademark it, it was toolate because it was part of the common parlance.
It was like too common.
(32:12):
So it was like, you can't trademark something that's too common.
Like it's like trademarking the word the, you know, you can't do that because it's too,which by the way, the Ohio State University tried to do.
But anyway.
But like, so it was, was too commonplace.
And so they couldn't do it.
And so when people are like selling things with, you know, t-shirts and everything withthe hashtag black lives matter, they can't, they can't, can't, not only, not only can they
(32:36):
not, I'm losing my words here.
Not only can they not benefit from that, but there was apparently some whole, anotherorganization that was not created by the founders of the real movement that.
like had started to go fund me and was taking money from people.
And it's a whole big thing.
My point is you need to think about the penalties or like not doing it.
(32:59):
But again, having said that, if you can't hire an attorney, then again, take classes,watch videos, familiarize yourself, do whatever you have to do.
so that was, that was second tech.
So my first tech takeaway was research, do your due diligence, take notes, then hire.
And second was hire a professional, hire a trademark attorney or
make yourself as familiar with that thing.
(33:20):
Again, I'm saying it specifically for trademark, but again, if you're not a professionaland you're trying to do something, familiarize yourself as much as you can with the topic.
You're going to pay, sounds like what you're saying, Rachel, here is you're either goingto pay in money to a trademark attorney or you're going to pay in time educating yourself
to go through this process.
So it's just whatever payment is most available to you or sounds most like it fits you.
(33:46):
Yeah, well said.
That's a very good point.
Exactly.
You're to pay one way or another.
And then the next thing I'd say is don't be too precious about any one name.
I'm sure, you know, if it's named after your favorite pet, you know, when you were a childor something like that, I'm sure that that means a lot to you, but don't be too precious
about it.
Be prepared to pivot and choose another name.
(34:07):
Like have a few different ones that you can choose from, because again, so hard to findsomething unique.
It's just, so hard to find something unique.
and then I'll say, you know, honestly, slow your roll, like temper yourself.
Don't, don't be a runaway train like I was and start creating logos and websites andsocial media handles and everything.
(34:32):
be sure before you go down those paths.
And again, that goes back to my earlier point about, making sure you do your due diligenceand you familiarize yourself with the process so that you know, because
Again, the process is going to take somewhere between 18 to 24 months.
It's the time is taking longer and longer.
so you're going to be operating under that name for a while and you don't want to be 18months into it.
(34:57):
And then you get a cease and desist order that says you can't use this name anymore.
And now what are you going to do?
Like, you know, think about the cost of that.
Now you got it.
You've got customers and you've got followers that know this name and now you got to tryto convince them to follow you under a different name or a different social media handle
or whatever.
So just.
Be sure before you start down that path.
And then the final thing that I'll say is just be kind to yourself.
(35:20):
One of the things that my trademark attorney said to me, she was like, you need to showyourself great.
And on that day when she gave me that news and I was just so down and was like, I feellike maybe I shouldn't have quit my job.
And I was just really down.
And she was like, no, you need to take a breath.
You need to take a minute.
You need to show yourself grace.
This is not something that you knew.
Entrepreneurship is hard.
(35:40):
There are going to be, you know, this is going to be a long journey.
This is just one of the bumps in the road.
There's going to be more.
So you need to get to the point where you can be kind to yourself and show yourself grace.
I love that.
It's such a takeaway, especially in all situations, but especially when you're trying todo something like starting your own business and taking that leap and going away from the
(36:04):
relative safety of a nine to five.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I wish I could put a nice pretty bow at the end of this episode and tell you thateverything worked out fine and that they lived happily ever after.
(36:27):
Unfortunately, that's not the way life works.
That's also not the way the trademarking process works.
The trademarking process is long.
It starts with an application and then you've got like nine to 10 months of time before anattorney from the USPTO, the United States Patent and Trademark Office, even reviews your
application to decide whether or not it can move forward.
(36:49):
Then there are number of stages that happen after that.
Where I currently am in the trademarking process is that the USPTO has reviewed myapplication and decided that I can move forward.
The next stage is that it gets published.
I'm not sure exactly what the terminology is, but basically it gets put out there foranyone to see and for anybody to decide whether or not they want to contest it.
(37:12):
So even though the USPTO says that they think this application can be successful based onall of their criteria or whatnot, they give an opportunity for anybody to say that they
have an objection and that they don't want, do they have an objection to this trademarkbeing approved?
So where I am right now is that, and this is something that I found out a month ago.
(37:34):
In fact, I found this out.
as I was getting on a plane headed to Philadelphia for the Grace Hopper celebration.
And I literally just was like, I can't even deal with this right now.
I'm just going to put a pin in that and I'm going to circle back.
but so where I am right now is that a certain fruit theme, big tech company has decidedthat they want more time to consider whether or not they are going to oppose my trademark
(37:57):
application.
And I can only assume it's because they have services that use a word in my brand name.
They also currently have some TV commercials that feature that same word in the tagline atthe end.
So, and by the way, we're talking about a common word in the English dictionary, but youknow, it is what it is.
(38:17):
So yeah, I'm waiting to hear whether or not this giant tech company is going to crush mylittle black and brown brand.
You know what?
Actually, that's not fair to my trademark attorney.
If I had tried to do this on my own, like you heard in that episode where I thought I waslike, I can do this.
I'm a smart person.
I can figure this out.
If I had tried to do this on my own and then I got the notice from the USPTO saying thatthis company was considering opposing my trademark, I would have been like, okay, well,
(38:45):
that's it game over.
but I, you know, I have a really good attorney and she's used to planning in the big lead.
She worked for, you know, the, the largest litigation firm in the country.
you know, she.
She's got me, right?
She's got my back.
And I've got somebody who is fighting for me.
So I'm like, okay, she's got this.
(39:05):
And like I said, if I didn't have her fighting for me, I would have just thrown up myhands and been like, it's over.
I guess I got to come up with another brand name.
But instead she's planning to meet with this company's attorneys and we'll see whathappens next.
mean, that doesn't say it's going to be successful.
It doesn't say anything about how it's going to happen one way or another, but at least Igot somebody fighting for me.
(39:26):
You know, we'll see what happens.
I'll wrap up this episode by saying, hey, look, entrepreneurship is hard.
You know, it's important that I think it's important that you hear the good stories andthe bad stories.
You know, as I mentioned at the top in the intro, I, you know, it's been a year to the daysince I left my last corporate job and I left to focus specifically on building this brand
(39:50):
and growing my business.
And it's an ongoing journey.
you know.
Stay tuned, we'll see what happens next.
If you have questions, then give us a call or send us a text at 404-425-9862.
You can follow us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
And you can visit, subscribe at ImperfectGenius.com to subscribe to our newsletter andreceive a copy of the show notes.
(40:15):
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you, while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast that helps Black women thrive by providingtechnical advice on effectively navigating the business development journey and offering
advice to all women on building successful careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Hey, everybody.
Since we had several episodes in a row that were specifically tech-focused due to myparticipation in the Grace Hopper celebration,
(00:37):
I wanted to release an episode for my aspiring entrepreneurs to let you know that Ihaven't forgotten about that segment of the listening audience.
So what I decided to do is I decided to release this content that was originally plannedto be a bonus episode, which was recorded with former assistant producer Emma Burgin At
the time that I'm recording this intro, it is a year to the day since I've submitted myresignation from my last corporate job.
(01:04):
And the events that are described in this episode that you're gonna hear in a minute, it'sa year to the day since those events happened, because it was on the day that I resigned
from my last corporate job.
So what you're gonna hear in this episode is a story about my trademarking journey.
And I teased this a little bit in episode 11 when I interviewed my trademark attorney,Ruky Tajani.
But I decided I would, again, because I had so many tech-focused episodes in a row, Idecided that I would release this content.
(01:33):
generally as opposed to saving it as a bonus episode.
So let's take a listen.
Okay, so I think it might be important for this particular topic to start with a littlebit of background about my company, RL Foster Incorporated, which is technically my second
(01:55):
company.
I previously had another corporation when I owned a franchise.
But so this particular company, I started in 2015 when I was working as a contractor forAT&T.
I was corp to corp.
So basically I was just working for myself and billing them for my time.
pan myself, whatever I felt like pan myself.
(02:16):
So it existed back then and I created it specifically for that reason.
It's a long story.
I can tell that a different day of why I chose to do that.
But so when I left AT&T, it was, I'm using air quotes here, listeners can't see it, justletting you know, it was to retire.
I was going to retire and go teach software engineering at the college level.
(02:40):
But I didn't close the business because I really wanted to, I knew at some point in time,I wanted to use this company as a vehicle for income in retirement.
And so I left it open.
kept paying me the business registration, license fees, insurances, everything.
So basically it was still open.
I just wasn't necessarily earning any kind of regular income.
(03:02):
And the reason I say regular income is because I was doing a sort of like side gigs, Iwould
when people needed help with something like they needed a website or they needed help withanything technical, I would help them out and charge them a nominal rate because I was
working a full-time job.
So it wasn't my lifeline.
So I left it open, but it had been relatively stagnant since about 2018.
(03:25):
And it wasn't until about like last year.
So time of this recording is 2023.
was 2022 that we are we.
Me, that's the royal we by the way, Emma.
Me, myself, and I.
That's when we, yes, exactly.
When the royal we started thinking about rebranding.
(03:47):
And so the old name that I'd originally come up with, I actually came up with that in 2022before I knew what this brand was going to be, which is what it is now.
But I feel like for the listeners sake, because I'm not sure.
knowledge level and we're talking to people who are getting into business ownership andentrepreneurship.
(04:09):
I want to talk about the difference between the legal entity name, a trade name and atrademark.
So my legal entity, so my company is a corporation.
So you can have a sole proprietorship, you can have an LLC, you can have a C Corp and SCorp.
And S Corp is basically, it's just a tax treatment.
So a corporation is a corporation, but you can have an S classification, which is aspecial type of taxing.
(04:33):
which is meant, know, S is for small business, but, I'm not a tax accountant, so I can'texplain all of the logistics, but just know that mine is a, corporation, it's an S-corp,
which is the same as a C-corp, except from a taxation perspective.
So my legal entity name is RL Foster Incorporated, but you can have a trade name.
(04:55):
So for example, let's say that you're going to own a Dairy Queen.
So you might have Burgin Incorporated as your corporate name, right?
But then you're doing business as Dairy Queen number XYZ.
So for example, my old business, it was a different corporation's different corporationname was the Knowledge Trust Incorporated, but I was doing business as Computer Tots and
(05:18):
Computer Explorers number 224 because it was a franchise.
So that's your trade name.
So you have your legal end and you don't have to have a trade name.
It's just that usually your corporation name is a better example and or another examplethat people I think can relate to Google originally when it started and it's changed a
little bit over time, but Google, the parent company is called ABC incorporated.
(05:41):
Some people may know that or not ABC, it's Alphabet Incorporated.
And so they were doing business as Google.
And then later they ended up because they when they started buying up a bunch of differentcompanies, they ended up
creating a subsidiary and they created an LLC called Google LLC that's a wholly ownedsubsidiary of Alphabet Incorporated.
So the point is, the name that people know you by, is it necessarily your actual legalcorporate name that you file your taxes under per se?
(06:11):
legal entity name, trade name.
Kind of like how you have some friends who have their given name, but they go by adifferent nickname and until you have to travel with them or fill out a comp-
like a serious government document.
You're like, wait, what's your name?
Wait, that's your name.
Yeah, exactly.
That is a great analogy.
That is a perfect analogy.
Exactly.
(06:32):
So that's legal entity name and trade name, but neither of those is trademark.
a trademark is, So, and the example, I'll use the example that my trademark attorney usesall the time.
Nike, three well-known trademarks with regard to Nike.
There's the name Nike, which is trademarked.
(06:53):
There's the swoosh, you know, the, and for the listeners, I'm actually drawing the swooshin the air as if you can see it, but there's the swoosh, which is actually a trademark.
It's a, it's an image or a, an icon or I'm not even sure what the word is, that you couldtrademark.
And then there's just do it.
Their phrase, just do it.
So you can trademark all of those things.
And again, we're going to have an episode at the time of this recording.
(07:16):
I'm not sure which episodes would have aired.
This is a behind the scenes episode.
We're going to have an episode with my trademark attorney who can explain this in waybetter terms than me.
So the reason I bring that all up is to say when I started the business in 2015, it was RLFoster Incorporated.
And when I started doing side, you know, sort of like these side consulting on the side, Icreated a trade name, which I don't even know if I want to say it.
(07:41):
was such a dumb trade name, but I had a trade.
I had a different trade name.
And so I was literally billing, you know, corp to corp billing AT&T as RL Fosterincorporated invoicing them.
But then when I was just doing this sort of side gig, when I would send invoices or billpeople for like individuals, people that I was helping, I would use this trade name and
that was the name on my, my bank account.
(08:03):
So anyway, so, but I never had a trademark, but when I started talking about, or startedthinking about rebranding this and building what it is today, which is providing
technology coaching for entrepreneurs and career advice for women in technology.
And I started thinking about what I wanted the business to be, because I'm sliding intoretirement and I was thinking, okay, what do want the business to be long-term?
(08:26):
I was fairly certain that I wanted something that I could trademark and could do all kindsof things with, whether it's, know, retreats or, you know, logos, t-shirts, journals, you
know, as well as, you know, all of the social media handles and everything else in theonline courses and all that.
I wanted to be able to trademark the name.
So I started, I had this idea that I was going to, I was going to trademark some stuff.
(08:49):
And I had got some really good advice from a very popular podcast host who said, you knowwhat, when I tried to trademark, cause I was going to do this myself.
I was like, I got a subscription with Rocket Lawyer.
I was like, I'm a smart person.
I can look up the rules.
I'm fine.
I don't need any help.
can handle this.
Yup.
Exactly.
I've got this.
(09:11):
You know how we are as women, we tend to take everything on.
We think we can do everything.
So I was just planning on doing it myself.
before we get into what happened with the trademarking, I just wanted to provide thatbackground so that people could understand the difference between a legal entity name, a
(09:31):
trade name, which you register with your local, like you register with your county.
It's not necessarily even statewide, much less...
Countrywide or worldwide.
It's just something you register locally so that you don't have two people in the samecounty that doing business under the same name.
And then there's trademark, which is a whole different ball of wax.
So I just wanted to explain that.
(09:52):
Excellent.
Okay.
So now we've got those three terms in our head and you had this corporate entity and youwanted to rebrand it in order to take the company into a different direction.
as you enter this next phase of business and work and, and helping women in tech.
How did that go, Rachel?
What went wrong?
What went right?
(10:12):
What lessons did you learn?
How'd that work out for you?
Okay, so what had happened was, no, I'm just kidding.
So really though, honestly, officer, what happened was, there was this deer that ranacross the road.
Anyway, no, seriously.
(10:32):
So I remember earlier when I said,
you know, I thought I was a smart person that I could do all this on my own.
That's the short version of what went wrong.
But, you know, for the sake of the listeners, let's get into a little bit more detail thanjust, you know, I thought I could do everything myself and I was wrong.
A couple different things.
(10:53):
So to start with, I ignored the warning signs.
So what I mean by that is I done my research and yet I had this name in my mind.
I'd even drawn sketches and had all these ideas.
And, and when I started thinking, okay, I'm going to rebrand this business and this iswhat I'm going to do.
I was like, okay, now I'm getting serious.
Let me look and see if anybody else has this name.
(11:13):
And so I did, I didn't just, you know, I wasn't a complete bull in a China shop and justdidn't just run with it.
I did some initial research.
but I didn't because I, am not an expert in this field and I did not know.
what to do with that research, so to speak.
So I found someone who had a similar name and I thought that my name was different enoughthat it didn't matter.
(11:38):
And also because that person didn't have the domain name, they didn't have any of thesocial media handles.
didn't have anything like there.
I was like, okay, this is good.
And I think I even, might've even, cause I remember doing a search of the trademark, the,USPT.
I'm always good.
I'm dyslexic.
I always get this wrong.
USPTO, US Patent and Trademark Office.
(12:00):
Yes, USPTO.
I think I even did a USPTO trademark search and found that person.
But again, because their name was different, it wasn't exactly the same.
It was similar, but not exactly the same.
I thought, I'm good.
So that's the first thing I did wrong.
Yeah.
And I remember you talking to me about that when you had done that research.
You were like, look, this is similar, but there's enough difference.
(12:22):
We're going to be fine.
And also I think if I recall correctly, it's
was set to expire like pretty soon after you were looking to register your own name.
Honestly, the time of this recording, think it was set to expire like two days ago.
I was like, it doesn't matter.
It's going to expire soon.
(12:43):
Yeah, it seemed like one small little red flag where there was a tiny bit of overlap inthe Venn diagram, but there were enough things pointing to us, you being able to use this
name and us being able to move forward.
Yes, exactly.
So that leads us to number two, which is in terms of what went wrong.
I am not a trademark expert.
(13:04):
I don't know trademark law.
I don't work with the USPTO on a regular basis.
Like I did not know what I did not know.
So here, you know, here's me trying to pretend.
I can't, it's not even like I was trying to pretend, but I just thought I'm a smartperson.
I can figure this all out, but I don't know.
Again, I didn't know what I didn't know.
I'm not a trademark, you know, attorney.
don't.
deal with the USPTO on a regular basis.
(13:26):
just, I just was foolish basically.
So that was number two.
And then the third thing I did wrong is I just jumped in with both feet.
I was just like, okay, this is the name.
I'm going with it.
I'm creating a logo.
I'm getting the domain name.
I'm going to go get all the social media handles.
I started creating a website and it wasn't even just a simple, like I, I started off witha basic template.
(13:51):
And again, I'm going to do all kinds of content around.
creating websites, so more details on designing websites for your business.
But I started with a basic template because I hate starting from scratch, but I wanted allthese like bells and whistles or certain things or colors in a certain way and layout in a
certain way.
So I started doing coding.
So I spent hours, hours upon hours upon hours working on this website.
(14:16):
And what's even worse of all of that?
not only that, I disseminated that logo, the domain name.
I was telling everybody, yeah, got this, this, I'm going to have this new blog, this newwebsite, this new podcast.
And I'm telling everybody the name I'm sending everybody.
Do you remember when I sent you the cover image for the podcast?
And I was like, isn't this cool?
Beautiful, beautiful image with the, the now defunct name of this company that shall neversee the light of day.
(14:45):
Unfortunately.
Yes, unfortunately it was a beauty.
was a beautiful cover image.
So I did all of that, but even worse, and I'm so thankful for my trademark attorneybecause I was this close and for the listeners, I'm showing the little pinching my fingers
together, very close together.
(15:05):
I was this close to announcing it worldwide, well, not worldwide, but pretty broadlybecause I was going to be on a LinkedIn live event with the job father and talking
specifically about
being black in tech and it was gonna that that particular LinkedIn live event was going tobe replayed during Afro tech, which for those who don't know is a huge tech conference for
(15:30):
black people in tech.
Very huge.
I'm talking, talking, I don't even know what the attendance is like 30,000, 50,000.
I don't know.
It's huge.
It's huge.
And this was this LinkedIn live event was going to be replayed during Afro tech.
And I was planning at the end of the event when they were like,
you know, doing the wrap up and is there anything you want to, you know, say to the folksor, know, anything you want to publicize?
(15:51):
I was going to announce my website with this name that, you know, like turns out Icouldn't use.
But anyway, so I was going to announce it.
I was just planning to do all these things and I happened to have a meeting with mytrademark attorney.
I want to say like a week or two before that event was going to happen.
And I told her I was planning to do that and she was like,
(16:12):
hold off.
She's like, let me, let me do my job first and let me do my due diligence and you know,let me come back to you before you do that.
So, and I was like, well, but that's just such a great opportunity.
She's like, well, what you can say instead, which again, I'm very grateful to her.
She said, well, what you can say instead is follow me on LinkedIn and you know, look foran update from me soon.
(16:32):
You know, just don't say the name.
Exciting.
Yeah, exactly.
Exciting news coming soon, but just whatever you do, don't say the name because I have notgiven you clearance to use that name yet.
And I'm thinking she's being overly precautious.
You know, I'm just like, is that a word?
Precaution?
Yes.
Overly cautious.
(16:53):
My brain just went, I don't know.
Okay.
I'm having a brain moment anyway.
So I just thought she was just being, I was like, she's being a lawyer lawyer.
She's, she's, she's lawyering me right now.
You know, know how lawyers are.
you got to be very careful.
So I'm like, okay, but I listened.
Thankfully, my God, thankfully I listened to her.
(17:13):
Anyway, that's when, so that takes us all to what finally ended up happening on the day.
So this was weeks after the LinkedIn live event.
was, and again, Emma, you can attest to this.
I was getting pretty impatient, like waiting to hear back from my trademark attorney.
Yes, because at this point in time, just like as another peek behind everything, Racheland I had,
(17:35):
planned on already having several episodes recorded.
had planned on posting them and hopefully to get things going.
So even though it was just the two of us working on this podcast, we felt like we were acouple of months behind from our plan and the timetable.
(17:56):
We were both a little bit frustrated, but Rachel, obviously more so because this is yourbusiness.
This is something you've been dreaming about for over a year now at this point.
And it felt like this one little thing that was definitely going to go our way.
both felt like it was, we were just waiting for the last check mark from this lawyer andlike, why can't we go?
but thankfully we didn't.
(18:16):
And I was, and I think I told you, didn't I tell you, I was like, I'm just going to goahead and post the website.
Cause the website had been created, but hadn't been published.
I was like, I'm just going to go ahead and publish it.
We can start recording.
Start.
was like, Emma, start booking the guests.
We are ready to go.
done waiting.
Yeah.
(18:50):
So fast forward to the day, literally the day that I resigned from my job.
So let me just sort of set up the scene because this is important.
So that particular day, I was going to be teaching a workshop for some students inCalifornia, some 18 to 25 year old students.
I was going to be doing a workshop for Hack the Hood.
(19:12):
So because they're in California and they were students and we wanted to do this workshopafter they were out of school.
or after their classes, it was going to be in the evening.
So it was going to be beginning at 7 PM my time, because I'm on the East Coast.
So I was going to have to work until about 9 PM.
So for that reason, instead of because I would normally start my workday at 9 AM, insteadof starting at 9, I decided to start at noon.
(19:33):
So that particular day was my whole schedule was shifted.
So I started work, my nine to five job at noon and submitted my resignation.
I attended my resignation at noon that day.
And so I had my lunch break.
at four and I'm using air quotes because it's lunch break before o'clock, but it's becauseof a shifted day.
So I had my lunch break at four and I had a meeting with my trademark attorney during mylunch break.
(19:58):
I don't even remember how the, so initially we were just talking about some things and wewere covering like the classifications that I would want to register under.
And again, this is more trademark talk that look for that episode with my trademarkattorney, Ruky Dajani.
anyway, so it's
It wasn't even like the very first thing we talked about.
(20:19):
was like maybe 10 minutes into the call that finally she's like, okay, so I completed mycomprehensive search with regard to your name.
And unfortunately, I found something that will prevent you from moving forward with thatname.
And I'm just like, wait, what, what is she talking about?
And she's like sharing her screen.
is like, yeah, exactly.
(20:40):
Like, excuse me, I'm sorry.
What?
What did you just say to me?
and so she's sharing her screen and she's sharing this report with me and she's showing itbasically.
then when she, she scrolls to this, you know, she's going through this big, I don't evenremember this big report.
She gets to this guy that I found earlier.
Remember I told you earlier in my research, I'd found this, this, you know, person who hadthis name.
(21:04):
And I'm thinking to myself, I know it, cause she even goes to the website and I'm like, Iknow that website.
I've seen that website.
Like that's not supposed to be a problem.
He doesn't have the domain.
It like, like, so she's like, she's sharing with me.
that I can't use this name because of this thing that I found before.
But in my head, I'm like, but no, I've already disqualified him.
Like he doesn't count, you know, but again, don't, because I don't know what I don't know.
(21:28):
and so she had to explain to me the concept of remarkably similar, that if there is apossibility for there to be confusion in the marketplace, if there's two businesses that
are similarly named and the consumer.
might confuse one for the other, then you can't have the same name.
like if I wanted to have a, like if my last name was McDonald and I wanted to have Foster,you know, or like I'm saying my last name, my real last name, my fake last name, but let's
(21:57):
just say like I wanted to have something like Mc, what you're gonna say?
I was gonna say RL McDonald incorporated or McDonald incorporated.
Yeah, RL McDonald burgers, you know, burger shop.
People could confuse that with regular McDonald's.
So you can't, that was a really terrible example, but.
I think you get the gist.
You cannot have two things.
Thank you.
(22:17):
So you can't have two things that are remarkably similar if they're in the same industry.
mind you, if I wanted to have R.O.
McDonald's shoe company, that's fine.
Cause I'm not selling burgers, right?
You know, so again, it doesn't matter.
But I didn't know this.
So she's explaining this to me.
so it's slowly, as she's explaining this all to me, it's slowly sinking in.
(22:38):
Cause at first I was just in denial.
I was just like, she's wrong.
Cause I've already seen that and I've already disqualified that.
and so anyway, so basically I, I don't even remember the rest of that call.
Like I just kind of shut down, out.
(22:58):
I wasn't even like a conscious thing.
I just was in my brain going through all of the things that all the time and the moneythat I had spent up until that point on that.
Right.
Previous name.
Luckily for me, she recorded that Zoom conversation because I did not hear the rest ofwhat she said.
And at the end, she, and I, you know, I'll wrap this, this part up by saying that onething that she said to me, she said, well, how are you feeling?
(23:26):
What are you thinking?
And I said, I'm thinking, I wish you had told me this before I quit my job this morning.
Cause I'm like, I don't even know what's next.
And so, you know, and I, I
I sort of said that to her and she said, she was like, no, we're not going to do that.
She's like, this is just a minor bump in the road.
We're going to do a brand pivot.
And she started explaining to me like the process of brand pivot.
(23:49):
this, again, this is the stuff that I did not hear because I was just in shock.
but the thing that was very beneficial for me was the fact that I had that workshop laterthat night because I literally couldn't
I was kind of spiraling on the call.
wrapped up the call.
(24:10):
I asked her to send me the video because I knew I hadn't heard some of the stuff she said.
And then I was like, I don't have time to stress about this because I have to go prep forthis workshop.
This was not like a frou frou.
Yeah, I didn't have time to spiral and I was going to be teaching Python.
So like it was, I needed to focus.
Like I could not just, you know, phone it in.
Like I was going to be doing an advanced Python course with these students.
(24:33):
So I was like, I can't, I don't have time to do it.
I, I,
put that out of my mind, I prepped for my workshop, taught the workshop.
And after the workshop, which ended, like I say, around 9 PM, I just went to sleep.
was like, I can't process.
I just went to sleep.
And that was actually good because I woke up the next morning and I feel like a part ofthis, you know, speaking of entrepreneurship and black women, I feel like, you know, there
(24:59):
is a burden and a blessing for being a black woman in this society because the burden is
we're always having to trudge through, we're always having to find a way.
Like we're always having to just figure out, know, we have roadblock after roadblock afterroadblock and we have to figure out a way around it.
So it just sort of becomes ingrained in you.
And I don't even want to say it's in our DNA.
I think a part of it is in our DNA, but I think it's more societal that, you know, it'sjust, we tend to have a harder time.
(25:25):
And so we just have to keep trudging through.
So I woke up the next morning and I was like, okay, I got a plan.
All right, here's what I'm going to do.
Like I just.
I just formulated a plan.
Okay, I'm going to port the code for their website to a new domain and I'm going to do,and I'm going to, I just, woke up the next morning and I had a plan and that sort of, and
(25:46):
that plan helped us get to where we are now.
So it's, I'm so happy you woke up with that.
That's amazing.
Also, I've, I've heard this story from you a couple of times.
And one thing that always stands out is, and I think that our listeners could, could takefrom this as well is how thoughtful.
It is that your trademark attorney recorded that meeting because she probably knew thatonce she gave you that bad news, you were going to check out.
(26:10):
So potentially, especially if you're working with clients and you're obviously the expertin what you're doing and they don't know, and you have to deliver some bad news based off
of your knowledge or your expertise, as long as it's not sensitive information, if you canrecord that and then they can go back and rewatch that later with a cooler head and then
formulate some
(26:31):
plans of actions or some additional questions to come back to you with at a later point intime.
That's a really thoughtful, I want to say gift or like it's a really thoughtful thing todo for people when you're delivering bad news.
No, I think that's a really good observation.
That's a really good point.
And I will say, cause you mentioned, you know, as long as it's not sensitive information.
(26:54):
In this case, she's my attorney and she's on retainers.
So we have attorney client privilege anyway.
So it was sensitive, but as long as she's not sharing it with someone else, she's sharingit with me, it's okay for me to go back and watch that.
Right.
Excellent.
That's a good point as well.
Okay.
So that is how we got to where we are now.
And I guess Rachel, the next thing I would want to know is what are your takeaway?
(27:17):
yeah, let's pause.
No, I just wanted to add,
The other thing I want to say just for the listeners and to fully pull the curtain back isjust so that you all know, at the time that we're recording this behind the scenes
podcast, we still don't know what the name of the podcast is.
Just FYI.
Which might sound a little crazy because there was an intro where we talked about thetitle, but we are recording this middle part where we're describing the situation while
(27:46):
we're still in the middle of the naming situation.
So, Rachel's actually, I believe you're having a meeting with your attorney tomorrow.
Right?
Yes.
Yes, I am.
Possibly.
should.
I should mention.
might learn the name tomorrow.
Yes, this is true.
I should mention again, for those who are, you know, taking notes or and, you know, we'llsend out show notes.
(28:09):
We'll talk about that in the outro at the end of the podcast.
But for those of you who are following along, just know that, you know, when you do thisbrand pivot,
part of it is you come up with your alternate names.
And I had to come up with three alternate names.
And so I'm meeting with my trademark attorney tomorrow to see if any of these three havelegs to last and whether or not we can move forward with them.
(28:33):
So I'm sorry, I just wanted to add that you were saying something.
right.
Fingers crossed.
Okay.
So now that everybody's kind of caught up to speed on all of that, Rachel, what are yourtakeaways if you were to talk to yourself like four or five months ago?
when you were just starting out this journey of looking into the name and give yourselfsome counsel, what would you say, what should folks in the position you were in a few
(28:55):
months ago keep in mind and try to do as they're thinking of brand names?
Obviously acknowledging that if there's a name or a word in a language, it's been used insome sort of brand name to form some type of company.
So it is really, really difficult to come up with a unique and catchy
(29:17):
name for new businesses that people are starting these days.
It's so hard because everything, I mean, again, Emma, you were there, like we were justsearching all kinds of things and everything was taken already.
So my takeaways, good question.
First, I mean, do your research and your due diligence, which I did.
(29:38):
So I would say take notes.
So when I did my research in my due diligence, I didn't write down, you know, when I foundthat guy that had a similar name, I didn't write it down.
didn't take notes on it.
I just sort of dismissed them in my head.
So do your research, do your due diligence, take notes, but also hire a professional.
If you are not an expert in that thing, then, you know, it's so here's the analogy I liketo use when I.
(30:05):
first bought my house and I was used to do little things around the house all the time.
And one thing that I did, I installed a ceiling fan by myself.
And let me tell you how hard it is to install a ceiling fan by yourself because you haveto hold the motor while you're trying to screw the, like connect the wires.
And it's just so hard.
And after I was done, I was like, I will never again do that.
(30:25):
I was like, I will hire a professional.
So there's been several times when I've done something in my house, whether it waspainting or whatever.
And it was so...
difficult or I had a problem with XYZ.
And I was like, you know what?
In the future, I will hire a professional.
So if you are not a professional in that thing, especially when it comes to something liketrademark law, hire a professional.
(30:45):
So hire a trademark attorney.
But I confess and admit that that, you know, maybe I may be saying that from a point ofprivilege.
Not everybody can afford attorneys.
Attorneys are expensive.
I would argue.
And I'm sure that when we get to the episode we're talking to,
rookie about trademarking, she's probably going to ask the question, what's the cost ofnot doing it?
(31:09):
And there's a really good couple of good examples about people not trademarking and thenwhat they lost out on in terms of revenue later.
So think about that too.
having said that, knowing that attorneys are expensive, maybe that's not an option foryou.
If you can't hire an attorney,
take classes, watch videos, read blogs, do whatever you need to do to familiarize yourselfwith the details.
(31:32):
Because if you're gonna try to do that on your own, you need to know the rules.
need to know, because the trade, I think I don't think I mentioned earlier, the trademarkprocess is, it's getting longer and longer because there's so many people trying to
trademark everything.
Cause you can trademark a hashtag.
Did you know you could trademark a hashtag?
know, like, well, so along those lines.
(31:52):
Again, one of the lessons learned that I know from listening to a podcast, another podcastwith my trademark attorney on it, the Black Lives Matter movement, the founders of Black
Lives Matter never trademarked that.
And by the time they, you know, it was popular and they wanted to trademark it, it was toolate because it was part of the common parlance.
It was like too common.
(32:12):
So it was like, you can't trademark something that's too common.
Like it's like trademarking the word the, you know, you can't do that because it's too,which by the way, the Ohio State University tried to do.
But anyway.
But like, so it was, was too commonplace.
And so they couldn't do it.
And so when people are like selling things with, you know, t-shirts and everything withthe hashtag black lives matter, they can't, they can't, can't, not only, not only can they
(32:36):
not, I'm losing my words here.
Not only can they not benefit from that, but there was apparently some whole, anotherorganization that was not created by the founders of the real movement that.
like had started to go fund me and was taking money from people.
And it's a whole big thing.
My point is you need to think about the penalties or like not doing it.
(32:59):
But again, having said that, if you can't hire an attorney, then again, take classes,watch videos, familiarize yourself, do whatever you have to do.
so that was, that was second tech.
So my first tech takeaway was research, do your due diligence, take notes, then hire.
And second was hire a professional, hire a trademark attorney or
make yourself as familiar with that thing.
(33:20):
Again, I'm saying it specifically for trademark, but again, if you're not a professionaland you're trying to do something, familiarize yourself as much as you can with the topic.
You're going to pay, sounds like what you're saying, Rachel, here is you're either goingto pay in money to a trademark attorney or you're going to pay in time educating yourself
to go through this process.
So it's just whatever payment is most available to you or sounds most like it fits you.
(33:46):
Yeah, well said.
That's a very good point.
Exactly.
You're to pay one way or another.
And then the next thing I'd say is don't be too precious about any one name.
I'm sure, you know, if it's named after your favorite pet, you know, when you were a childor something like that, I'm sure that that means a lot to you, but don't be too precious
about it.
Be prepared to pivot and choose another name.
(34:07):
Like have a few different ones that you can choose from, because again, so hard to findsomething unique.
It's just, so hard to find something unique.
and then I'll say, you know, honestly, slow your roll, like temper yourself.
Don't, don't be a runaway train like I was and start creating logos and websites andsocial media handles and everything.
(34:32):
be sure before you go down those paths.
And again, that goes back to my earlier point about, making sure you do your due diligenceand you familiarize yourself with the process so that you know, because
Again, the process is going to take somewhere between 18 to 24 months.
It's the time is taking longer and longer.
so you're going to be operating under that name for a while and you don't want to be 18months into it.
(34:57):
And then you get a cease and desist order that says you can't use this name anymore.
And now what are you going to do?
Like, you know, think about the cost of that.
Now you got it.
You've got customers and you've got followers that know this name and now you got to tryto convince them to follow you under a different name or a different social media handle
or whatever.
So just.
Be sure before you start down that path.
And then the final thing that I'll say is just be kind to yourself.
(35:20):
One of the things that my trademark attorney said to me, she was like, you need to showyourself great.
And on that day when she gave me that news and I was just so down and was like, I feellike maybe I shouldn't have quit my job.
And I was just really down.
And she was like, no, you need to take a breath.
You need to take a minute.
You need to show yourself grace.
This is not something that you knew.
Entrepreneurship is hard.
(35:40):
There are going to be, you know, this is going to be a long journey.
This is just one of the bumps in the road.
There's going to be more.
So you need to get to the point where you can be kind to yourself and show yourself grace.
I love that.
It's such a takeaway, especially in all situations, but especially when you're trying todo something like starting your own business and taking that leap and going away from the
(36:04):
relative safety of a nine to five.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I wish I could put a nice pretty bow at the end of this episode and tell you thateverything worked out fine and that they lived happily ever after.
(36:27):
Unfortunately, that's not the way life works.
That's also not the way the trademarking process works.
The trademarking process is long.
It starts with an application and then you've got like nine to 10 months of time before anattorney from the USPTO, the United States Patent and Trademark Office, even reviews your
application to decide whether or not it can move forward.
(36:49):
Then there are number of stages that happen after that.
Where I currently am in the trademarking process is that the USPTO has reviewed myapplication and decided that I can move forward.
The next stage is that it gets published.
I'm not sure exactly what the terminology is, but basically it gets put out there foranyone to see and for anybody to decide whether or not they want to contest it.
(37:12):
So even though the USPTO says that they think this application can be successful based onall of their criteria or whatnot, they give an opportunity for anybody to say that they
have an objection and that they don't want, do they have an objection to this trademarkbeing approved?
So where I am right now is that, and this is something that I found out a month ago.
(37:34):
In fact, I found this out.
as I was getting on a plane headed to Philadelphia for the Grace Hopper celebration.
And I literally just was like, I can't even deal with this right now.
I'm just going to put a pin in that and I'm going to circle back.
but so where I am right now is that a certain fruit theme, big tech company has decidedthat they want more time to consider whether or not they are going to oppose my trademark
(37:57):
application.
And I can only assume it's because they have services that use a word in my brand name.
They also currently have some TV commercials that feature that same word in the tagline atthe end.
So, and by the way, we're talking about a common word in the English dictionary, but youknow, it is what it is.
(38:17):
So yeah, I'm waiting to hear whether or not this giant tech company is going to crush mylittle black and brown brand.
You know what?
Actually, that's not fair to my trademark attorney.
If I had tried to do this on my own, like you heard in that episode where I thought I waslike, I can do this.
I'm a smart person.
I can figure this out.
If I had tried to do this on my own and then I got the notice from the USPTO saying thatthis company was considering opposing my trademark, I would have been like, okay, well,
(38:45):
that's it game over.
but I, you know, I have a really good attorney and she's used to planning in the big lead.
She worked for, you know, the, the largest litigation firm in the country.
you know, she.
She's got me, right?
She's got my back.
And I've got somebody who is fighting for me.
So I'm like, okay, she's got this.
(39:05):
And like I said, if I didn't have her fighting for me, I would have just thrown up myhands and been like, it's over.
I guess I got to come up with another brand name.
But instead she's planning to meet with this company's attorneys and we'll see whathappens next.
mean, that doesn't say it's going to be successful.
It doesn't say anything about how it's going to happen one way or another, but at least Igot somebody fighting for me.
(39:26):
You know, we'll see what happens.
I'll wrap up this episode by saying, hey, look, entrepreneurship is hard.
You know, it's important that I think it's important that you hear the good stories andthe bad stories.
You know, as I mentioned at the top in the intro, I, you know, it's been a year to the daysince I left my last corporate job and I left to focus specifically on building this brand
(39:50):
and growing my business.
And it's an ongoing journey.
you know.
Stay tuned, we'll see what happens next.
If you have questions, then give us a call or send us a text at 404-425-9862.
You can follow us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
And you can visit, subscribe at ImperfectGenius.com to subscribe to our newsletter andreceive a copy of the show notes.
(40:15):
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you, while your journey may not beflawless, it can be phenomenal.
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