March 13, 2025 • 42 mins
Join host Rachel Foster as she dives into a captivating conversation with HR leader Ryan Fortman! Together, they explore the empowering world of corporate professional development funds and how to transform them into personal growth opportunities. Ryan shares his wealth of insights on harnessing these valuable resources and the crucial role of self-investment in skyrocketing your career. Get ready to be inspired and discover the keys to unlocking your potential!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:13):
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast provides technical advice on effectivelynavigating the business development journey and offers advice on building successful
careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Today I'm chatting with Ryan Fortman.
Ryan is a friend, former colleague, and HR business partnership leader in the technologyindustry.
(00:34):
He's a San Francisco Bay area native and a forward-thinking HR leader who knows how toconnect the dots between strategy, people, and results.
With over two decades of experience, Ryan's business acumen and passion for data literacymake him a master at diagnosing the health of business ecosystems and creating innovative
solutions.
He's a champion of early adoption of disruptive technology, empowering leaders and teamsto thrive in an ever-changing workplace.
(00:59):
I can't wait to dive into his thoughts on leadership innovation and future work.
Ryan, welcome to the podcast.
I have been looking forward to this for a while.
really?
Tell me more and say more about that.
Yeah, I've been, again, I've always been supportive of everything that you've done, butthe content on the podcast has really captured my attention.
(01:25):
But also I know even just learning some things and it's getting me to contemplate on someoptions.
I don't think I've missed a single episode.
So when you've given me an opportunity to come on, I definitely jumped at the opportunity.
Yeah, I gotta say, appreciate that.
just for the listeners, losing my voice, just for the listeners, you and I go back to mydays at New Relic when you referred to me as the professor.
(01:50):
I remember that.
They used to call me the professor at New Relic.
I started to say the professor.
I started to say the professor, but I wasn't sure.
No, it's fine.
No, it's fine.
No, by the way, we keep it 100 % authentic here.
We can be real.
So we're good.
But the thing that I was going to say, appreciate that is after.
So first of all, when I was leaving and you guys did a really great goodbye, you know,zoom call with you.
(02:13):
had me ugly crying on zoom.
It was really great.
But I remember I mentioned that podcast and you were the first person to raise your handlike, you know, you won't need somebody out there.
And then when I started the podcast, when I started posting the
the episode description stuff on LinkedIn.
You were always the first person to give a thumbs up or share a cheer or whatever, or givea comment.
(02:38):
was like, Ryan is always there.
As soon as I post an episode, he's right there.
So I have to appreciate.
It was just like, somebody's listening.
If nobody else is listening, I know Ryan's listening.
No, I think that I just, in my personal opinion, I think it's important that one, like tolearn, but then the other thing is you need to support, I think it's important to support
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diverse voices that are out there.
And I think they offer a unique perspective.
And I think that how you approach it, I'm always just intrigued by that.
And I think it's important that you support that.
And the other thing is too, if I'm big on networking and engagement, if you're engaging,
And that's what it's about.
We need to have this exchange and this interchange.
(03:21):
And I'm real about that.
Some people don't, but I do.
If that's not what they like to do, then that's fine.
I stop engaging.
But I like what you're doing.
like the subjects that you talk about.
And it gives me a lot of stuff to think about.
Well, thank you.
appreciate that.
So, so speaking of that, let's talk about today's topic.
(03:44):
You and I were chatting at the end of 2024 and we got on the subject.
I don't remember what we were talking about initially, but somehow we got on the subjectof corporate professional development funds for using corporate professional development
funds for personal growth.
And at one point you said something like, so many people are sleeping on this.
They need to know.
And I was like, okay, well, let's tell them I got a podcast.
Let's, let's have a conversation.
(04:05):
Let's, let's spin up the mics.
Let's go.
So, you know, that's what we're talking about today is using corporate professionaldevelopment funds for personal growth.
Yeah.
You know, and that's, like I said before, I mean, it really just blows my mind.
You know, people, you know, are leaving free learning.
(04:25):
Like, like I think of it like passing up a free first grade update, a first class upgradewhen you go on a plane and it's unexpected and you, and it's like you saying no.
Right.
But for me, I'm, always going to take that seat.
I'm always thinking about the extra leg room.
I mean, even, even if I'm, if it's early in the morning,
And I don't want to have a cocktail.
I'm going to take the glassware.
(04:47):
I'm going to put the ginger ale, the orange, whatever it is.
Because I've always been the type to dive head first into learning.
Whether it's books, whether it's podcasts, whether it's research papers, YouTubeUniversity, as people will call it.
Why?
Because it doesn't cost anything.
It's zero tuition.
But one of the biggest things that motivates me is my mom.
(05:11):
My mom always would ingrain in my mind and she would just always tell me, would say, shewould literally say, she would say, boy, you can only go down in the well so many times
until you run out of water and you must replenish.
And she would always annunciate, replenish your well to draw deeper waters of learning.
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And the reality of it is that she's right.
So when I think about anytime a company,
and it looks different in every company.
anytime a company has said to me or said, hey, we'll pay you to learn, I wasn't, there wasno way I was going to say no.
So in fact, that's like, you know, I, I, you know, everybody who knows me knows I loveanalogies and metaphors and everything because it helps me to learn better.
(05:57):
But I liken that to someone handing you free wifi and you saying, you know what?
I'm good with this, this dial up.
I love that sound.
I love doing that.
You know what I mean?
So
Really, it doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense.
Why would you turn it?
Yeah, I love.
So I'm also big on analogies.
I love all of those analogies.
So the upgrade, the plane upgrade and the leg room, the first class, like I love that,that image in my head.
(06:23):
I love what your mom said about replenishing.
Actually, what your mom said about replenishing the well reminds me of, you know, there'sa famous, you know, part of, you know, growth and self-help kind of stuff.
The famous thing is sharpening the saw, you know, like you can.
If you're, you're doing your, you're cutting wood and you're cutting, wouldn't cut andwouldn't you like, I don't have time to stop and sharpen my saw because I'm busy cutting
(06:45):
wood.
But at some point you're not going to be able to cut that wood anymore because your shot,your saw is, is dull.
So you can't get through it.
So it's going to take you longer because you didn't, know, so you guys, at some point yougot to stop and you got to sharpen that saw.
So yeah, I
I'm very familiar with that one.
I think how that analogy and that story goes is that it compares the workers.
(07:08):
When they're on break, there's someone that in between sips of coffee is sharpening theirsaw, whereas the other people are just resting.
And so what they found was the people that in between sips were sharpening their saw weretwice as productive at the end of the day because they found time, they made time.
It was supposed to be quote unquote their time, but in their quote unquote their time.
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they were still sharpening their blade.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that makes me think of like lunch and learns.
Like I love a lunch and learn, you know, it's like, okay, it's my lunchtime.
It's my time, but I can learn something.
I can sit on a webinar and learn something new, you know, while I'm eating food.
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So let's, let's dive into the topic by starting with the basics and define what we'retalking about for the listeners, just for folks who don't know specifically what we mean
(07:54):
when we say professional development funds.
So generically just.
Purely generically speaking, when we say professional development funds, we're talkingabout money that is set aside by companies to invest in their employees.
And companies do this for a multitude of reasons, like skill enhancement to upgrade yourskills for the job that you're doing, but also just generically for employee retention,
(08:16):
right?
Yeah, in fact, you know, I like to let's really just talk about free money.
I love it.
I think I might title this episode free money.
I'll get a lot more downloads.
I might have to think about that.
Okay, but go ahead.
Sorry.
Yeah.
You know, when you, when you think about it, because that's basically what professionaldevelopment funds are now true.
(08:37):
Yeah.
You're, you're providing your services and you're disciplining different things.
That's true.
But the company is setting aside cash for you to learn new skills.
And, and somehow most people just leave it sitting there.
Like it's an unclaimed lottery ticket.
Now, when you think about these funds, like, for example, they can use a lot of companiesallow people to use these funds for things like workshops.
(09:01):
They can use online courses and memberships, conferences.
So basically any opportunity to level up your skills, that's what it is.
And companies who invest in this, because employees who grow tend to stick around longer.
If you think about it, retention is better.
They tend to innovate more.
And let's be real, they don't embarrass the company, you know, in meetings.
(09:24):
You know how you might be that one person in the meeting that might be saying somethingembarrassing like, I have a question.
What's AI?
You don't want to be that person.
But here's the thing.
Most employees don't use these funds.
just don't.
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It's a benefit.
And unfortunately, I've seen people try to use them when they know that their tenure isabout to go out the door or something, when they realize it.
So they'll spend hours, if you really think about it, people will spend hoursdoom-scrolling.
But if you ask them to enroll in a free online course or to listen to an audiobook and allof sudden they just, they don't have time.
(10:10):
if, the way I look at it is if your company has given you a chance to grow on their dime,take it.
Because really if you're staying in the same place while the world is moving forward,that's not, that's really not a strategy.
In my opinion, that's a slow fade into the relevance.
That's basically what it is.
I wonder if people are not taking advantage of it because they think that, like they thinkabout it in a negative, like that it's a negative, that yeah, the company offers it, but
(10:37):
if I'm using up that money, then I'm more of a burden to the company.
I'm wondering if people have like sort of negative thinking about it.
They're thinking, yeah, it's being offered to me, but they don't really want me to takeit.
And maybe that's why they, I was saying maybe that's why they wait until they're on theirway out the door and like, okay, now I'll take it because I don't care.
I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier about the soft.
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think a big part of it is that people will, the biggest thing I hear from people is Idon't have the time.
And I get it and I understand it, but I think it's less about like, don't want it to looklike I'm a burden to the organization.
I really think that people just don't make the time and they're the last ones to put ontheir oxygen mask in the plane versus, and they make sure everybody else has it.
(11:26):
That's what I've noticed.
So that's probably my hypothesis.
Well, you know what, now that you said, when you said the thing about the oxygen mask,because that is a thing that I talk about all the time.
I'm constantly telling people when we talk about self care, especially women, especiallyblack women, I'm constantly saying, you know, think about that message that they give you
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when you get on the plane.
Put your own oxygen mask on first before you help others, because if you were passing out,you cannot help the child who is sitting next to you or whoever it is you're trying to
help.
But I think.
Again, I'm speaking specifically as a black woman.
I think a lot of times we just feel self-sacrificing.
So, okay, no, no, no, I'm not going to do it because I don't want to take up any extraspace or any extra time or any extra money.
(12:08):
So I'm going to sacrifice myself.
So I think that that mentality does play into it as well.
It's interesting that you say that because my daughter, my daughter is a registered nurseand she, one of the things that she taught me a couple of years ago, my daughter teaching
her dad something, but she taught me, she believes in self care and how she rewardsherself is with self care.
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So, you know, like some people reward themselves with shopping sprees.
Some people reward themselves with food or experiences, different things.
She told me that she rewards herself with
things worth that are about wellness, like, you know, whether it's a massage or a manicureor a pedicure or a facial or different things.
And, and she says that way my reward is still benefiting me.
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And so it goes hand hand with what you're, what you're saying.
It's like that wellness and that self care.
It's like at the end of the day, you know, it's you, I mean, and especially if you're in acorporate environment, I've seen it time and time again, you know, even people that you
think are, are, are like,
in support of you, they kind of fade.
(13:16):
And the ones that are real, they'll try to latch on and, or they'll try to keep thatconnection going and parlaying that connection, which is something that's important to me.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And I, by the way, I remember when your daughter told you that, because I think you weredoing a, either a pedicure for the first time or something and you posted about it in the
black relics channel.
Cause I remember you were talking, you were like, why did anybody tell me about that?
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That was funny.
remember.
My wife and I went a couple weeks ago and I was just like, mean stigma is gone.
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
Sorry, I didn't mean to out you for, you know, your pedicures.
If you want me to cut that out, I can.
I put it out there, you know, even on LinkedIn and it was interesting, but thatexperience, had a lot of men that were secretly doing this.
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And because I put it out there, they were like, okay, maybe we could go.
I like,
That's funny.
That's funny.
So now not along the lines of pedicures, but speaking of self care, just, want to clarifythat when we talk about professional development funds, that is not confined to skills
that directly improve a person's work performance.
(14:28):
Like, like if you're a coder, it's not just, okay, you can go take, learn a new codinglanguage, but you know, as an example, but it can, the scope of it can be any money that's
allocated to.
improving yourself.
It doesn't have to be specific to your actual job.
It can be fairly broad, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, let's let's let's talk about that.
(14:49):
Let's be real about that.
And because really, at the end of the day, who you are outside of work, it definitelyaffects who you are at work.
So if you're really if you're constantly stressed or you're you're running on fumes andyour personal life is a mess.
Honestly, there's no amount of professional training that's going to make you a highperformer.
(15:10):
It just won't.
That's that's why personal personal development is not separate from.
professional success, in my opinion, it feels it.
So that's the difference.
And really more companies are getting this now, which is why really when you think aboutprofessional development funds, they're being used for things like mental health programs,
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for example, coaching, even creativity workshops.
What companies are realizing that an employee who knows how to manage stress,
and really think outside the box and actually enjoy what they do in way it is, is way morevaluable than someone who just is collecting certifications.
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you think about it now, there are limits to this.
Now I joke around.
I think, you know, when, when I say this, but it's true, you can't just like, for example,sign up for a pottery class and then say, this pottery class is, it's gonna, it's going to
help me with strategic hand-eye coordination.
That's not what we're talking about, but, but what we have to think about is if your jobis handing you resources, handing out these resources for you to grow, you got to take
(16:23):
them because skipping out on personal development, you know, I know you were spadesplayer.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's like playing spades with no strategy.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, you can do it, but really all you're doing is setting yourself up to get run off thetable.
Right.
So, so growth isn't just about work.
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It's, about making sure you show up as your best self wherever you go.
And when you show up as your best self and we show up as a genuine authentic self, you'remore likely to do your best work because it's more in tune with who you are intrinsically.
Yeah, no, true.
And, you know, it also makes you a better ambassador for that company.
You know, you're a better representative of that company when you're going out toconferences and things like that.
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You're not embarrassing them.
know, you're whatever it is.
You know, if it's networking, it's public speaking, you're, you know, if you're doing,again, if your job is not specifically to be a public speaker for that company, it's, and
back to my example of, so let's just say you're a software engineer.
So professional development funds aren't just for coding class.
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Like I said, you can take a public speaking course or, you know, some sort of course likethat just to make you better when you go out into those conferences so that when you're
representing that company, you got on that badge that's got that company's name on it.
They want to make sure that you are a good representative.
You are a good ambassador for that company.
you know, it can, it is still beneficial to, I just want to just sort of reiterate some ofthe stuff you were saying.
(17:53):
It's still beneficial to the company for you to be a better person outside of work.
Absolutely.
And for all you know, that will parlay into your next opportunity, into networking, intorelationships.
And when people will start to want to align you with what they're doing, it createsopportunities when you're investing in yourself.
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Yeah, absolutely.
Now, I have to say, in the past, I have used funds to pay for things like languagelessons, but if I'm being honest, I feel like I personally have not.
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I'm one of those people who probably left some free money on the table for some of thereasons we talked about before, that sort of putting yourself last.
But I feel like I haven't always taken advantage of opportunities that have been affordedto me for the companies, at the companies that I've worked for.
A couple of areas that I do think that I have consistently.
use the resources that were provided by the company.
It has to do with making connections, like networking and going to women's conferences andblack tech conferences and things like that.
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But what are some of the ways that you've, I just, I'm curious to hear from you.
What are some of the ways that you've used personal development funds for your, I'm sorry,professional development funds for your personal growth?
Yeah, you know, again, I really think it's like this type of growth, it's like a cheatcode.
You know, it's like a cheat code nobody tells you about.
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I've used mine, like, for example, one of the things that my current organization that Ijust I love and I can't believe that they they give us funds, they give us development
funds, they give us tuition funds.
You can even use it for books and different things like that.
And I just I
I've used mine, for example, to read books.
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There are certain books that are retread for me.
I think about books like Leadership Strategy and Tactics by Jocko Willnick, because reallyknowing how to navigate tough leadership situations is really good.
That's a life skill.
I think about books that I read, Mindset by Carol DeWeck.
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That book really changed how I approach challenges in my work, and I still go back tothat.
And really, you know, the other one that was a really good read for me, it was how boardswork by Dambisa Amoyo.
And it gives a perspective of not just being a board member, but being a board member fromthe point of view of a person of color.
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She's a black woman that has that opportunity to sit on some, some really influentialboards.
Because when you think about that one, if you're going to be in a room where decisions aremade, you better know how they're made, especially in public organizations.
And I'm a big Adam Grant fan.
I've read, you know, think again several times.
It basically teaches me like how to challenge my own thinking instead of holding on to badideas, you know, because, you know, sometimes that's what can happen.
(21:03):
Books like Atomic Habits by James Clear, which is a good one.
I usually read that one again because, you know, helps you really just think about yourwhole approach toward consistency.
Then I think about things like, for example, like AI training.
Yeah.
You know, let's be honest because I'm not about to let somebody who's got decades lessexperience than me get on something like chat GBT and outwork me.
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That's just not going to.
I have really embraced, I'm an early, was an early adopter of using this technology as anextension of my expertise.
That's the difference.
So, so while most people are trying to figure out what it is that the gen AI is generatingfor them.
when you couple that with your wisdom, you already are applying it.
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It's just, it's a game changer.
Now, long term impact, know, this is really good.
I think clearer, I think differently about how I move around in spaces.
the best part is, is a lot of these different resources that I've made use, didn't cost mea dime.
I got reimbursed for them.
(22:11):
You know, it's just something that's really important.
Yeah, yeah.
I want to say on the AI, it's called, I didn't know there was a term for it, but it'scalled prompt engineering.
Yes.
Somebody came up with that term because again, you have to couple your wisdom with whatthe AI can provide.
Because you can just ask a question.
It's going to give you an answer.
It may be a good answer, it may be a bad answer.
(22:33):
It may be a completely made up answer.
You've heard the story, new stories about, know, chat GPT, know, imagining things andcoming up with something about.
think it was elephant eggs or something, you know, like just nonsense, right?
But if you pair it with your actual knowledge, like if you know the thing that you'reasking about and you know how to tweak the question and then ask the right follow-up
questions, like, okay, I see what you did there, but let's deep dive deep into this, youknow, bullet point number two about X, Y, like it's, that pairing your wisdom and your
(23:01):
knowledge with what the AI can do.
So it's called prompt engineering.
Yeah.
I like that you said that again, it's like, is a subject that I, in fact, I just submittedan abstract to develop a session at my company on this subject, on how it applies to the
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work.
Because to your point, it's like, really the success of using AI, in my opinion, is veryanalog in nature.
The chat, the bots and the different chat, GBT and the different, you know, tools that areout there, they're just tools.
Right.
But if you, if you, to your point, the prompt engineering is where is that that's whereyou measure three or four time.
(23:45):
It might take you more time, but guess what?
You get that time back if you know what to do with it.
You know what I mean?
So it is like really important.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
agree.
By the way, I want to go back to who's the author of Think Again.
were talking to talk about Think Again.
There was something you said and I lost my train of thought because I was thinking aboutAI, but there was something I was going to say about that when you said, so Think Again is
(24:08):
about what and then who was the author?
Think Again is by Adam Grant.
It basically really taught me how to challenge my own thinking.
It's like sometimes you can hold on to a bad idea like it's your last few bucks in yourwallet.
That's thing that you say.
Okay, okay, okay.
Yeah.
The thing that's pretty interesting about that, there's one example in that book that justalways gets me and it's about Rem Blackberry about how the demise of Blackberry pretty
(24:36):
much, unfortunately was the owner just didn't want to give up the Quartier keyboard.
And he was resisting on that change.
that one, because he wasn't willing to think, rethink how he was doing it.
He, everybody passed him up.
I mean, if he would have embraced it sooner, who knows?
where BlackBerry will be today.
(24:57):
Interesting.
Okay.
I definitely need to read this book because I will hold on to a bad idea for a really longtime.
So I definitely need to read this book.
There's another, I'm trying to think of what was the book that I read where they talkabout reframing.
it was, it's the name of the book has gone out of my head, right?
(25:19):
It's on my shelf in the other room.
I'm not going to get up to go get it.
But they talk about reframing your thinking.
it's designing your life by Bill Burnett and and and Dale Evans or Dan Evans something toprofessors out of Stanford and it's about but one of the key things that they talk about
is reframing your thinking when you know you think and I can't think of a good exampleright now, but I can't do this and it's like well I haven't learned how to do this like
(25:44):
you reframe that thought like no I haven't
learn the skills that I need to be able to do this.
So what I need to do is go do, you know, do X, Y, in order to gain that skill so that Ican complete this task.
You know, it's like just completely reframing your thinking.
So, but anyway, all that to say, when you mentioned the hang on to a bad idea, I was like,wait, I need to listen.
I was like, I need to, I need to listen to this.
need to go reread this book because I will hold onto a bad idea.
(26:08):
And it's good.
It's because this is the reality of a lot of things.
Like I told you, a lot of people aren't going to take time for themselves.
just won't.
They just won't.
And if you find yourself in a part of a community, you know, a diverse community, forexample, as people of color, as, you know, gender and different things, it's like you have
(26:30):
to constantly be feeding your mind.
You have to constantly be feeding your mind in how you show up.
you know, and, you have to constantly do it.
And what will start to happen is you'll start to build a gap between, between you andothers who aren't willing to do that.
That's why my mom's words, you know, about that well, because you think about it.
(26:50):
If a well is not attached to a good source, it will go dry.
It will go dry.
And so that's why she would always tell me it's like, you know, you, you can't, you know,put your, your, your bucket into a well that's going to run out of water.
You have to.
constantly replenish that water.
You have to be thinking about that.
So a lot of people just go bone dry and you can see that happening right now.
(27:15):
There's so much, the technology is so disruptive right now that people who have allowedtheir learning ability to atrophy, it's now directly impacted.
it's so strange to see brilliant people not being able to see their work translate.
(27:35):
One of the examples I give, like with some of the people, some of the executives and someof the folks that I work with in some of these technology spaces is like you have some
people that are very skilled and gifted ice cream makers, but what is now being asked ofthem is to produce dipping dots.
And it's like, it's the same, it's the same flavor profile.
(27:56):
It's tastes like ice cream, but to ask an ice cream maker to figure out and to get adetached from making ice cream and to adopt something that's different.
Right.
It's hard for them to do.
Whereas people that are coming up now and using this disruptive and allowing themselves tolearn, not only can they make different dots, but guess what?
If you ask them to make ice cream, they can do that too.
(28:19):
So that's the, that's the concept when I think about rethinking.
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree.
I agree.
I definitely need to check that book out.
I was gonna promise the listeners that it's gonna be in the show notes.
I still, my listeners know that I'm behind on show notes.
I'm definitely gonna do show notes for this episode, but I need to stop promising shownotes when I...
I said this to somebody, it when I was talking to Cory at the end of 2024, we were doing awrap-up episode, and I was talking about the blog.
(28:45):
And I was like, whatever made me think it was a good idea for dyslexics to write a blog.
Like me and words are just not, or me and written words are just, we don't get along, butthat's okay.
Maybe you do a vlog, maybe you do a part.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
like that.
Yeah, maybe that's how I do it.
But I definitely need to hire a copywriter so I can stay on top of my show notes.
But anyway, I was going to promise the listeners that all the books that you mentionedwill be in the show notes.
(29:11):
And they will be.
It's just a matter of when am I going get those out.
I wanted to...
I'm putting that aside for a second.
I feel like I want to give the listeners a couple of tips because as people are listeningto this conversation...
I'm trying to get in the head of my listeners.
I'm thinking that some people probably might be a little bit reticent to ask, to go totheir company and ask about funds.
(29:33):
Like maybe they don't know about, like maybe it was part of their, you know, HR onboardingthree years ago and they told them that they got those funds, but they forgot about them
and they're not sure whether or not their company offers this and they want to know moreabout it, but they may be reticent to go ask for money, right?
To go to their manager or to go, excuse me, to HR, got something in my throat, to ask formoney.
(29:54):
Do you have any?
I'm gonna turn this to you so I finish coffee.
Any tips about that?
Yeah.
So, so it depends on the size of your organization.
If you're an organization that has an intranet of some sort, maybe it's, it could be aformal intranet.
It could be some type of internal, um, like SharePoint site or something like that.
(30:16):
Usually you can find a search on something when it comes to development, um, tuition,different things like that.
And again, what I've, what I've noticed is that when you do these searches, you'llsometimes you'll see these companies will do
a couple of different things, either A, they'll do tuition reimbursement and, and then, orB, they'll do the development funds.
Sometimes they do both, but usually they do one or the other.
(30:39):
So I would first start with, with that is going to, um, your, internet page.
Also, I would go back to also if you're, if the internet page has benefits, for example,you can go to the benefits page and you usually will find something in that area.
If for some reason you can't find it there, what I would recommend is then go to HR andsay, hey, what are the benefits for development and learning and different things like
(31:06):
that?
That's one way you can do it.
And then let's just say that you're in an organization where that's just, you're not, it'snot robust or anything like that.
In some cases, if you, you basically write your problem statement, what you're trying tosolve and how it will help the organization to grow, to find that common ground.
In some cases, maybe you go to your leadership to see if they can earmark certain dollarsin their budget.
(31:32):
And in most cases, some of these investments are not, they're not sizable.
Like for example, it could be that let's say your company doesn't have anything and yousay, Hey, would you be willing to pay for me to have a LinkedIn learning account?
Which is, which is a nominal fee and has is a tremendous value.
So those are some tips that I would, I was saying that you can do within.
(31:54):
the confines of your workplace.
But one of the things too is making use of networking as well.
So like if one of the things you'll start to learn is you'll start to see certain peoplein your organization that are constantly learning or doing different things.
And sometimes they have some tips or they even have some recommendations as well on how tomake use of company investment.
(32:19):
yeah, that's that's a good idea.
I love the idea of laying out your your sort of cost benefit ratio and you know, likehere's what here's how we're gonna I'm going to contribute back to the company.
I would also say make sure you you keep track of sort of the benefits that you gain, youknow, so lay out that that case up front in terms of why you you know, why those funds are
going to help you but then you know, you're you probably are going to have you know,either if it's not twice a year at least once a year you're going to have
(32:45):
reviews where you need to talk about what you've done and how you've grown over the courseof that year for promotions and raises and things like that.
Take that information into that conversation.
So by the way, I did X, Y, and Z, and then I did this.
I used my development funds to do this and that and the other.
And this is the way that it helped me in my job.
And so then show them the results of what you've done.
(33:09):
Yeah, I actually, I'm glad you said that because one of the things that I do, and it doessometimes incorporate these learning and development things once a month, I have on my
calendar to do what I call a business challenge matrix.
helps me to, because if you don't, you'll forget, like you said, right.
it basically, you know, it's really simple.
(33:30):
It's a column that's like business challenge or problem statement, what my strategy wasand then the execution of results.
And so it's three columns.
And a lot of times those problem statements, part of the strategy could be adopt promptengineering as learned in my such and such course, along with other things as part of your
(33:51):
strategy and the result.
So those are ways you can correlate it back to business impact, which is a value add forthe organization.
And they're more likely to support you by doing that if you can draw correlations back tothat.
And then what you'll find is at the end of the year, when you're getting these reviews,they'll strongly see like, hey, when this person takes it upon themselves to learn these
(34:12):
skills or take advantage of in-house training or different things like that, then, youknow, they're invested.
They're more likely to be retained.
And if they're smart, the leader is doing, if the leader is paying attention, they'regoing to want to invest more in you or lean on you.
Right.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And the other thing that I would say is if, know, you know, to the people who are unsureor nervous about doing this, start small, you know, just start with something really small
(34:38):
and make those requests and make sure and align it with your specific role.
If that you feel more comfortable doing that before you branch out into more personalgrowth types of things.
that's just some tips.
Yeah.
Well, Ryan, this has been...
fun and informative.
Thank you so much for joining me to shine a light on this treasure trove of resources thatpeople, like you say, people been sleeping on.
(35:04):
I am tempted to name the episode, Get This Free Money.
Come get this free money.
I tell you, I get it.
But I tell you, some people, I just have a passion for learning.
And I just think that, why not invest in yourself?
(35:27):
And you got to have that curiosity.
Even if you're not curious, let's just say you're just as not, there's always methods andmethodologies and things that speak to you.
Even I've even said, for example, gamification.
Anything is learning like like, you know, if you like to play strategy games, whether it'svideo games or chess or something like that, believe it or not, even if you put yourself
(35:49):
into that, like even like spades where strategy that translates your your brain doesn'tknow if you're playing cards or you're doing business or you're writing code, it just
knows it's being stimulated.
So whatever learning is for you or how you learn or how you synthesize information again,your brain doesn't care.
Yeah, just.
just basically make sure it doesn't go atrophy.
(36:10):
whatever helps you to learn, you got to just do that.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
You talk about brain atrophy, because I'm old, man, you know, and I love to play thesegames on my phone.
It's just like just simple little like math games or whatever, or strategy games.
And I'll do it while I'm just sitting, you know, like it's the way that I unwind at theend of the day.
I'm sitting in front of the TV watching something completely mindless.
(36:33):
And I'm actually not paying attention.
I'm just doing the game on my phone.
It's like just trying to keep in those neurons firing, you know, like just trying to keepmy brain, you know, fresh.
No, and it's important.
And that's where I really see like, I think people who aren't doubling down to reallyleverage AI as an extension themselves are missing out on, your point on synthesizing and
(36:57):
understanding information to help you to learn and to, like you said, keep those firing inall cylinders.
It's a lot of stuff you could do.
Speaking of AI, I was thinking about this the other day.
And it's funny because I, so I pay for Google Workspace, which includes Gemini as theirnew AI that they've got, which is free.
(37:18):
But I had ChatGPT Plus before Gemini came out, right?
So like I still have ChatGPT and I was debating about giving one up.
But the funny thing is I was sort of, being frugal, I was being that frugal businessperson.
And then I thought about, because ChatGPT Plus is $20 a month.
And honestly,
That is the cheapest employee I have in my company.
(37:38):
I mean, I will tell Chad TPT, I'm like, okay, think like a marketing expert.
then I give it, know, like back to that prompt engineering.
And again, the results that I get have to pair with my wisdom.
I have to pair it with the things that I know, but the results that I get out of it, I'mlike, yeah, it's, know, I don't want to pay $20 a month, but again, if I think of it like
an employee, like an intern, you know, like it's a pretty cheap resource, you know, if youthink about it in those terms.
(38:03):
Well, I'll tell you this, like one of the things that, cause again, I'm thinking aboutscale and I'm thinking about multiplying what I can do by extension.
So one of the things that I also do with that is I, I curate a matrix, that I have like ona spreadsheet and I have tabs that have different types of scenarios and I have built and
(38:25):
engineered different word prompts for different types of scenarios.
So that way I can, I can move.
move very stealthily, very with velocity.
So in some cases, you know, having certain situations.
So that way you're you're it kind of reminds me back in the day when you would write amacro for an Excel spreadsheet.
(38:46):
I know, Corey is listening.
was like corey's listening he's like yay macra he's the spreadsheet king
You know how that painstaking process that you would do to write down step by step whatyou do for macro, it may take you hours, but then it saves you seconds and minutes.
It's worth it.
So that's what I mean by curating some of those things to your point.
(39:09):
The other thing I would say to Rachel is learning how, because not all tools do the samething in the way of prompting.
So like, you know,
Like I use chat, GBT, I use cloud, I use Gemini some, sometimes I even use things liketools like Otter AI, for example, is a good one.
(39:31):
And my company just got us access to the full version of Co-Pilot, which is I'm startingto experiment with right now, which is, which is pretty crazy because it literally goes
like in under this right app.
goes across all your.
all your documents that are in Office 365.
(39:52):
So you can write prompts to gather information from everywhere.
learning how to do the prompt.
Again, prompting is analog.
The tool can be agnostic and different, but to your point, it's just putting the time tounderstand how to do that and scale.
Like you said, let it be an extension.
You have all these different assistants and employees that work for you.
(40:13):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Well, again, this has been awesome.
I think we need to wrap it up here.
I want to say to my listeners, as always, thank you for listening.
I encourage you to review your company's professional development policies and explore thepotential for professional and personal growth opportunities.
Take it like say, come get this free money, man.
(40:33):
I'd love to hear your ideas and experiences.
call or text us at 404-425-9862.
You can connect with us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
If you've got questions for Ryan, give us a call and ask the questions.
I'll invite him back and he can answer your questions.
I'm looking for questions, y'all.
If you'd like to use your professional development funds to connect with other women, ifyou're a woman of color in an underrepresented field like technology or entrepreneurship,
(40:59):
and you want to use your professional development funds to connect with other women ofcolor in underrepresented fields or
to access this episode's video version, you can head over tocommunity.imperfectgenius.com.
I should mention that the video versions are for everyone.
That's not just for women of color.
So if you want to see the video version, you got to see this cool hat that Ryan's got on.
can't like, if you just listen into the audio, you are not appreciating the full visualthat we have of Mr.
(41:26):
Ryan Fortman.
I have a habit as you know.
Yes, I know.
I your hat habit.
I love it.
So if you want to see that, if you want to see the full and living color version of Ryanand his hat, again, head over to community.imperfectgenius.com.
Our travelogues plan will give you access to the video version.
(41:47):
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may notbe flawless, it can be phenomenal.
Welcome to Imperfect Genius, the podcast provides technical advice on effectivelynavigating the business development journey and offers advice on building successful
careers in the tech industry.
I'm your host, Rachel Foster, a tech professional, educator, and entrepreneur.
Today I'm chatting with Ryan Fortman.
Ryan is a friend, former colleague, and HR business partnership leader in the technologyindustry.
(00:34):
He's a San Francisco Bay area native and a forward-thinking HR leader who knows how toconnect the dots between strategy, people, and results.
With over two decades of experience, Ryan's business acumen and passion for data literacymake him a master at diagnosing the health of business ecosystems and creating innovative
solutions.
He's a champion of early adoption of disruptive technology, empowering leaders and teamsto thrive in an ever-changing workplace.
(00:59):
I can't wait to dive into his thoughts on leadership innovation and future work.
Ryan, welcome to the podcast.
I have been looking forward to this for a while.
really?
Tell me more and say more about that.
Yeah, I've been, again, I've always been supportive of everything that you've done, butthe content on the podcast has really captured my attention.
(01:25):
But also I know even just learning some things and it's getting me to contemplate on someoptions.
I don't think I've missed a single episode.
So when you've given me an opportunity to come on, I definitely jumped at the opportunity.
Yeah, I gotta say, appreciate that.
just for the listeners, losing my voice, just for the listeners, you and I go back to mydays at New Relic when you referred to me as the professor.
(01:50):
I remember that.
They used to call me the professor at New Relic.
I started to say the professor.
I started to say the professor, but I wasn't sure.
No, it's fine.
No, it's fine.
No, by the way, we keep it 100 % authentic here.
We can be real.
So we're good.
But the thing that I was going to say, appreciate that is after.
So first of all, when I was leaving and you guys did a really great goodbye, you know,zoom call with you.
(02:13):
had me ugly crying on zoom.
It was really great.
But I remember I mentioned that podcast and you were the first person to raise your handlike, you know, you won't need somebody out there.
And then when I started the podcast, when I started posting the
the episode description stuff on LinkedIn.
You were always the first person to give a thumbs up or share a cheer or whatever, or givea comment.
(02:38):
was like, Ryan is always there.
As soon as I post an episode, he's right there.
So I have to appreciate.
It was just like, somebody's listening.
If nobody else is listening, I know Ryan's listening.
No, I think that I just, in my personal opinion, I think it's important that one, like tolearn, but then the other thing is you need to support, I think it's important to support
(02:59):
diverse voices that are out there.
And I think they offer a unique perspective.
And I think that how you approach it, I'm always just intrigued by that.
And I think it's important that you support that.
And the other thing is too, if I'm big on networking and engagement, if you're engaging,
And that's what it's about.
We need to have this exchange and this interchange.
(03:21):
And I'm real about that.
Some people don't, but I do.
If that's not what they like to do, then that's fine.
I stop engaging.
But I like what you're doing.
like the subjects that you talk about.
And it gives me a lot of stuff to think about.
Well, thank you.
appreciate that.
So, so speaking of that, let's talk about today's topic.
(03:44):
You and I were chatting at the end of 2024 and we got on the subject.
I don't remember what we were talking about initially, but somehow we got on the subjectof corporate professional development funds for using corporate professional development
funds for personal growth.
And at one point you said something like, so many people are sleeping on this.
They need to know.
And I was like, okay, well, let's tell them I got a podcast.
Let's, let's have a conversation.
(04:05):
Let's, let's spin up the mics.
Let's go.
So, you know, that's what we're talking about today is using corporate professionaldevelopment funds for personal growth.
Yeah.
You know, and that's, like I said before, I mean, it really just blows my mind.
You know, people, you know, are leaving free learning.
(04:25):
Like, like I think of it like passing up a free first grade update, a first class upgradewhen you go on a plane and it's unexpected and you, and it's like you saying no.
Right.
But for me, I'm, always going to take that seat.
I'm always thinking about the extra leg room.
I mean, even, even if I'm, if it's early in the morning,
And I don't want to have a cocktail.
I'm going to take the glassware.
(04:47):
I'm going to put the ginger ale, the orange, whatever it is.
Because I've always been the type to dive head first into learning.
Whether it's books, whether it's podcasts, whether it's research papers, YouTubeUniversity, as people will call it.
Why?
Because it doesn't cost anything.
It's zero tuition.
But one of the biggest things that motivates me is my mom.
(05:11):
My mom always would ingrain in my mind and she would just always tell me, would say, shewould literally say, she would say, boy, you can only go down in the well so many times
until you run out of water and you must replenish.
And she would always annunciate, replenish your well to draw deeper waters of learning.
(05:31):
And the reality of it is that she's right.
So when I think about anytime a company,
and it looks different in every company.
anytime a company has said to me or said, hey, we'll pay you to learn, I wasn't, there wasno way I was going to say no.
So in fact, that's like, you know, I, I, you know, everybody who knows me knows I loveanalogies and metaphors and everything because it helps me to learn better.
(05:57):
But I liken that to someone handing you free wifi and you saying, you know what?
I'm good with this, this dial up.
I love that sound.
I love doing that.
You know what I mean?
So
Really, it doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense.
Why would you turn it?
Yeah, I love.
So I'm also big on analogies.
I love all of those analogies.
So the upgrade, the plane upgrade and the leg room, the first class, like I love that,that image in my head.
(06:23):
I love what your mom said about replenishing.
Actually, what your mom said about replenishing the well reminds me of, you know, there'sa famous, you know, part of, you know, growth and self-help kind of stuff.
The famous thing is sharpening the saw, you know, like you can.
If you're, you're doing your, you're cutting wood and you're cutting, wouldn't cut andwouldn't you like, I don't have time to stop and sharpen my saw because I'm busy cutting
(06:45):
wood.
But at some point you're not going to be able to cut that wood anymore because your shot,your saw is, is dull.
So you can't get through it.
So it's going to take you longer because you didn't, know, so you guys, at some point yougot to stop and you got to sharpen that saw.
So yeah, I
I'm very familiar with that one.
I think how that analogy and that story goes is that it compares the workers.
(07:08):
When they're on break, there's someone that in between sips of coffee is sharpening theirsaw, whereas the other people are just resting.
And so what they found was the people that in between sips were sharpening their saw weretwice as productive at the end of the day because they found time, they made time.
It was supposed to be quote unquote their time, but in their quote unquote their time.
(07:28):
they were still sharpening their blade.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that makes me think of like lunch and learns.
Like I love a lunch and learn, you know, it's like, okay, it's my lunchtime.
It's my time, but I can learn something.
I can sit on a webinar and learn something new, you know, while I'm eating food.
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So let's, let's dive into the topic by starting with the basics and define what we'retalking about for the listeners, just for folks who don't know specifically what we mean
(07:54):
when we say professional development funds.
So generically just.
Purely generically speaking, when we say professional development funds, we're talkingabout money that is set aside by companies to invest in their employees.
And companies do this for a multitude of reasons, like skill enhancement to upgrade yourskills for the job that you're doing, but also just generically for employee retention,
(08:16):
right?
Yeah, in fact, you know, I like to let's really just talk about free money.
I love it.
I think I might title this episode free money.
I'll get a lot more downloads.
I might have to think about that.
Okay, but go ahead.
Sorry.
Yeah.
You know, when you, when you think about it, because that's basically what professionaldevelopment funds are now true.
(08:37):
Yeah.
You're, you're providing your services and you're disciplining different things.
That's true.
But the company is setting aside cash for you to learn new skills.
And, and somehow most people just leave it sitting there.
Like it's an unclaimed lottery ticket.
Now, when you think about these funds, like, for example, they can use a lot of companiesallow people to use these funds for things like workshops.
(09:01):
They can use online courses and memberships, conferences.
So basically any opportunity to level up your skills, that's what it is.
And companies who invest in this, because employees who grow tend to stick around longer.
If you think about it, retention is better.
They tend to innovate more.
And let's be real, they don't embarrass the company, you know, in meetings.
(09:24):
You know how you might be that one person in the meeting that might be saying somethingembarrassing like, I have a question.
What's AI?
You don't want to be that person.
But here's the thing.
Most employees don't use these funds.
just don't.
(09:44):
It's a benefit.
And unfortunately, I've seen people try to use them when they know that their tenure isabout to go out the door or something, when they realize it.
So they'll spend hours, if you really think about it, people will spend hoursdoom-scrolling.
But if you ask them to enroll in a free online course or to listen to an audiobook and allof sudden they just, they don't have time.
(10:10):
if, the way I look at it is if your company has given you a chance to grow on their dime,take it.
Because really if you're staying in the same place while the world is moving forward,that's not, that's really not a strategy.
In my opinion, that's a slow fade into the relevance.
That's basically what it is.
I wonder if people are not taking advantage of it because they think that, like they thinkabout it in a negative, like that it's a negative, that yeah, the company offers it, but
(10:37):
if I'm using up that money, then I'm more of a burden to the company.
I'm wondering if people have like sort of negative thinking about it.
They're thinking, yeah, it's being offered to me, but they don't really want me to takeit.
And maybe that's why they, I was saying maybe that's why they wait until they're on theirway out the door and like, okay, now I'll take it because I don't care.
I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier about the soft.
(11:00):
think a big part of it is that people will, the biggest thing I hear from people is Idon't have the time.
And I get it and I understand it, but I think it's less about like, don't want it to looklike I'm a burden to the organization.
I really think that people just don't make the time and they're the last ones to put ontheir oxygen mask in the plane versus, and they make sure everybody else has it.
(11:26):
That's what I've noticed.
So that's probably my hypothesis.
Well, you know what, now that you said, when you said the thing about the oxygen mask,because that is a thing that I talk about all the time.
I'm constantly telling people when we talk about self care, especially women, especiallyblack women, I'm constantly saying, you know, think about that message that they give you
(11:46):
when you get on the plane.
Put your own oxygen mask on first before you help others, because if you were passing out,you cannot help the child who is sitting next to you or whoever it is you're trying to
help.
But I think.
Again, I'm speaking specifically as a black woman.
I think a lot of times we just feel self-sacrificing.
So, okay, no, no, no, I'm not going to do it because I don't want to take up any extraspace or any extra time or any extra money.
(12:08):
So I'm going to sacrifice myself.
So I think that that mentality does play into it as well.
It's interesting that you say that because my daughter, my daughter is a registered nurseand she, one of the things that she taught me a couple of years ago, my daughter teaching
her dad something, but she taught me, she believes in self care and how she rewardsherself is with self care.
(12:33):
So, you know, like some people reward themselves with shopping sprees.
Some people reward themselves with food or experiences, different things.
She told me that she rewards herself with
things worth that are about wellness, like, you know, whether it's a massage or a manicureor a pedicure or a facial or different things.
And, and she says that way my reward is still benefiting me.
(12:56):
And so it goes hand hand with what you're, what you're saying.
It's like that wellness and that self care.
It's like at the end of the day, you know, it's you, I mean, and especially if you're in acorporate environment, I've seen it time and time again, you know, even people that you
think are, are, are like,
in support of you, they kind of fade.
(13:16):
And the ones that are real, they'll try to latch on and, or they'll try to keep thatconnection going and parlaying that connection, which is something that's important to me.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And I, by the way, I remember when your daughter told you that, because I think you weredoing a, either a pedicure for the first time or something and you posted about it in the
black relics channel.
Cause I remember you were talking, you were like, why did anybody tell me about that?
(13:40):
That was funny.
remember.
My wife and I went a couple weeks ago and I was just like, mean stigma is gone.
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
Sorry, I didn't mean to out you for, you know, your pedicures.
If you want me to cut that out, I can.
I put it out there, you know, even on LinkedIn and it was interesting, but thatexperience, had a lot of men that were secretly doing this.
(14:07):
And because I put it out there, they were like, okay, maybe we could go.
I like,
That's funny.
That's funny.
So now not along the lines of pedicures, but speaking of self care, just, want to clarifythat when we talk about professional development funds, that is not confined to skills
that directly improve a person's work performance.
(14:28):
Like, like if you're a coder, it's not just, okay, you can go take, learn a new codinglanguage, but you know, as an example, but it can, the scope of it can be any money that's
allocated to.
improving yourself.
It doesn't have to be specific to your actual job.
It can be fairly broad, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, let's let's let's talk about that.
(14:49):
Let's be real about that.
And because really, at the end of the day, who you are outside of work, it definitelyaffects who you are at work.
So if you're really if you're constantly stressed or you're you're running on fumes andyour personal life is a mess.
Honestly, there's no amount of professional training that's going to make you a highperformer.
(15:10):
It just won't.
That's that's why personal personal development is not separate from.
professional success, in my opinion, it feels it.
So that's the difference.
And really more companies are getting this now, which is why really when you think aboutprofessional development funds, they're being used for things like mental health programs,
(15:30):
for example, coaching, even creativity workshops.
What companies are realizing that an employee who knows how to manage stress,
and really think outside the box and actually enjoy what they do in way it is, is way morevaluable than someone who just is collecting certifications.
(15:53):
you think about it now, there are limits to this.
Now I joke around.
I think, you know, when, when I say this, but it's true, you can't just like, for example,sign up for a pottery class and then say, this pottery class is, it's gonna, it's going to
help me with strategic hand-eye coordination.
That's not what we're talking about, but, but what we have to think about is if your jobis handing you resources, handing out these resources for you to grow, you got to take
(16:23):
them because skipping out on personal development, you know, I know you were spadesplayer.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's like playing spades with no strategy.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, you can do it, but really all you're doing is setting yourself up to get run off thetable.
Right.
So, so growth isn't just about work.
(16:45):
It's, about making sure you show up as your best self wherever you go.
And when you show up as your best self and we show up as a genuine authentic self, you'remore likely to do your best work because it's more in tune with who you are intrinsically.
Yeah, no, true.
And, you know, it also makes you a better ambassador for that company.
You know, you're a better representative of that company when you're going out toconferences and things like that.
(17:10):
You're not embarrassing them.
know, you're whatever it is.
You know, if it's networking, it's public speaking, you're, you know, if you're doing,again, if your job is not specifically to be a public speaker for that company, it's, and
back to my example of, so let's just say you're a software engineer.
So professional development funds aren't just for coding class.
(17:32):
Like I said, you can take a public speaking course or, you know, some sort of course likethat just to make you better when you go out into those conferences so that when you're
representing that company, you got on that badge that's got that company's name on it.
They want to make sure that you are a good representative.
You are a good ambassador for that company.
you know, it can, it is still beneficial to, I just want to just sort of reiterate some ofthe stuff you were saying.
(17:53):
It's still beneficial to the company for you to be a better person outside of work.
Absolutely.
And for all you know, that will parlay into your next opportunity, into networking, intorelationships.
And when people will start to want to align you with what they're doing, it createsopportunities when you're investing in yourself.
(18:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, I have to say, in the past, I have used funds to pay for things like languagelessons, but if I'm being honest, I feel like I personally have not.
(18:42):
I'm one of those people who probably left some free money on the table for some of thereasons we talked about before, that sort of putting yourself last.
But I feel like I haven't always taken advantage of opportunities that have been affordedto me for the companies, at the companies that I've worked for.
A couple of areas that I do think that I have consistently.
use the resources that were provided by the company.
It has to do with making connections, like networking and going to women's conferences andblack tech conferences and things like that.
(19:09):
But what are some of the ways that you've, I just, I'm curious to hear from you.
What are some of the ways that you've used personal development funds for your, I'm sorry,professional development funds for your personal growth?
Yeah, you know, again, I really think it's like this type of growth, it's like a cheatcode.
You know, it's like a cheat code nobody tells you about.
(19:31):
I've used mine, like, for example, one of the things that my current organization that Ijust I love and I can't believe that they they give us funds, they give us development
funds, they give us tuition funds.
You can even use it for books and different things like that.
And I just I
I've used mine, for example, to read books.
(19:52):
There are certain books that are retread for me.
I think about books like Leadership Strategy and Tactics by Jocko Willnick, because reallyknowing how to navigate tough leadership situations is really good.
That's a life skill.
I think about books that I read, Mindset by Carol DeWeck.
(20:12):
That book really changed how I approach challenges in my work, and I still go back tothat.
And really, you know, the other one that was a really good read for me, it was how boardswork by Dambisa Amoyo.
And it gives a perspective of not just being a board member, but being a board member fromthe point of view of a person of color.
(20:33):
She's a black woman that has that opportunity to sit on some, some really influentialboards.
Because when you think about that one, if you're going to be in a room where decisions aremade, you better know how they're made, especially in public organizations.
And I'm a big Adam Grant fan.
I've read, you know, think again several times.
It basically teaches me like how to challenge my own thinking instead of holding on to badideas, you know, because, you know, sometimes that's what can happen.
(21:03):
Books like Atomic Habits by James Clear, which is a good one.
I usually read that one again because, you know, helps you really just think about yourwhole approach toward consistency.
Then I think about things like, for example, like AI training.
Yeah.
You know, let's be honest because I'm not about to let somebody who's got decades lessexperience than me get on something like chat GBT and outwork me.
(21:29):
That's just not going to.
I have really embraced, I'm an early, was an early adopter of using this technology as anextension of my expertise.
That's the difference.
So, so while most people are trying to figure out what it is that the gen AI is generatingfor them.
when you couple that with your wisdom, you already are applying it.
(21:51):
It's just, it's a game changer.
Now, long term impact, know, this is really good.
I think clearer, I think differently about how I move around in spaces.
the best part is, is a lot of these different resources that I've made use, didn't cost mea dime.
I got reimbursed for them.
(22:11):
You know, it's just something that's really important.
Yeah, yeah.
I want to say on the AI, it's called, I didn't know there was a term for it, but it'scalled prompt engineering.
Yes.
Somebody came up with that term because again, you have to couple your wisdom with whatthe AI can provide.
Because you can just ask a question.
It's going to give you an answer.
It may be a good answer, it may be a bad answer.
(22:33):
It may be a completely made up answer.
You've heard the story, new stories about, know, chat GPT, know, imagining things andcoming up with something about.
think it was elephant eggs or something, you know, like just nonsense, right?
But if you pair it with your actual knowledge, like if you know the thing that you'reasking about and you know how to tweak the question and then ask the right follow-up
questions, like, okay, I see what you did there, but let's deep dive deep into this, youknow, bullet point number two about X, Y, like it's, that pairing your wisdom and your
(23:01):
knowledge with what the AI can do.
So it's called prompt engineering.
Yeah.
I like that you said that again, it's like, is a subject that I, in fact, I just submittedan abstract to develop a session at my company on this subject, on how it applies to the
(23:23):
work.
Because to your point, it's like, really the success of using AI, in my opinion, is veryanalog in nature.
The chat, the bots and the different chat, GBT and the different, you know, tools that areout there, they're just tools.
Right.
But if you, if you, to your point, the prompt engineering is where is that that's whereyou measure three or four time.
(23:45):
It might take you more time, but guess what?
You get that time back if you know what to do with it.
You know what I mean?
So it is like really important.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
agree.
By the way, I want to go back to who's the author of Think Again.
were talking to talk about Think Again.
There was something you said and I lost my train of thought because I was thinking aboutAI, but there was something I was going to say about that when you said, so Think Again is
(24:08):
about what and then who was the author?
Think Again is by Adam Grant.
It basically really taught me how to challenge my own thinking.
It's like sometimes you can hold on to a bad idea like it's your last few bucks in yourwallet.
That's thing that you say.
Okay, okay, okay.
Yeah.
The thing that's pretty interesting about that, there's one example in that book that justalways gets me and it's about Rem Blackberry about how the demise of Blackberry pretty
(24:36):
much, unfortunately was the owner just didn't want to give up the Quartier keyboard.
And he was resisting on that change.
that one, because he wasn't willing to think, rethink how he was doing it.
He, everybody passed him up.
I mean, if he would have embraced it sooner, who knows?
where BlackBerry will be today.
(24:57):
Interesting.
Okay.
I definitely need to read this book because I will hold on to a bad idea for a really longtime.
So I definitely need to read this book.
There's another, I'm trying to think of what was the book that I read where they talkabout reframing.
it was, it's the name of the book has gone out of my head, right?
(25:19):
It's on my shelf in the other room.
I'm not going to get up to go get it.
But they talk about reframing your thinking.
it's designing your life by Bill Burnett and and and Dale Evans or Dan Evans something toprofessors out of Stanford and it's about but one of the key things that they talk about
is reframing your thinking when you know you think and I can't think of a good exampleright now, but I can't do this and it's like well I haven't learned how to do this like
(25:44):
you reframe that thought like no I haven't
learn the skills that I need to be able to do this.
So what I need to do is go do, you know, do X, Y, in order to gain that skill so that Ican complete this task.
You know, it's like just completely reframing your thinking.
So, but anyway, all that to say, when you mentioned the hang on to a bad idea, I was like,wait, I need to listen.
I was like, I need to, I need to listen to this.
need to go reread this book because I will hold onto a bad idea.
(26:08):
And it's good.
It's because this is the reality of a lot of things.
Like I told you, a lot of people aren't going to take time for themselves.
just won't.
They just won't.
And if you find yourself in a part of a community, you know, a diverse community, forexample, as people of color, as, you know, gender and different things, it's like you have
(26:30):
to constantly be feeding your mind.
You have to constantly be feeding your mind in how you show up.
you know, and, you have to constantly do it.
And what will start to happen is you'll start to build a gap between, between you andothers who aren't willing to do that.
That's why my mom's words, you know, about that well, because you think about it.
(26:50):
If a well is not attached to a good source, it will go dry.
It will go dry.
And so that's why she would always tell me it's like, you know, you, you can't, you know,put your, your, your bucket into a well that's going to run out of water.
You have to.
constantly replenish that water.
You have to be thinking about that.
So a lot of people just go bone dry and you can see that happening right now.
(27:15):
There's so much, the technology is so disruptive right now that people who have allowedtheir learning ability to atrophy, it's now directly impacted.
it's so strange to see brilliant people not being able to see their work translate.
(27:35):
One of the examples I give, like with some of the people, some of the executives and someof the folks that I work with in some of these technology spaces is like you have some
people that are very skilled and gifted ice cream makers, but what is now being asked ofthem is to produce dipping dots.
And it's like, it's the same, it's the same flavor profile.
(27:56):
It's tastes like ice cream, but to ask an ice cream maker to figure out and to get adetached from making ice cream and to adopt something that's different.
Right.
It's hard for them to do.
Whereas people that are coming up now and using this disruptive and allowing themselves tolearn, not only can they make different dots, but guess what?
If you ask them to make ice cream, they can do that too.
(28:19):
So that's the, that's the concept when I think about rethinking.
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree.
I agree.
I definitely need to check that book out.
I was gonna promise the listeners that it's gonna be in the show notes.
I still, my listeners know that I'm behind on show notes.
I'm definitely gonna do show notes for this episode, but I need to stop promising shownotes when I...
I said this to somebody, it when I was talking to Cory at the end of 2024, we were doing awrap-up episode, and I was talking about the blog.
(28:45):
And I was like, whatever made me think it was a good idea for dyslexics to write a blog.
Like me and words are just not, or me and written words are just, we don't get along, butthat's okay.
Maybe you do a vlog, maybe you do a part.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
like that.
Yeah, maybe that's how I do it.
But I definitely need to hire a copywriter so I can stay on top of my show notes.
But anyway, I was going to promise the listeners that all the books that you mentionedwill be in the show notes.
(29:11):
And they will be.
It's just a matter of when am I going get those out.
I wanted to...
I'm putting that aside for a second.
I feel like I want to give the listeners a couple of tips because as people are listeningto this conversation...
I'm trying to get in the head of my listeners.
I'm thinking that some people probably might be a little bit reticent to ask, to go totheir company and ask about funds.
(29:33):
Like maybe they don't know about, like maybe it was part of their, you know, HR onboardingthree years ago and they told them that they got those funds, but they forgot about them
and they're not sure whether or not their company offers this and they want to know moreabout it, but they may be reticent to go ask for money, right?
To go to their manager or to go, excuse me, to HR, got something in my throat, to ask formoney.
(29:54):
Do you have any?
I'm gonna turn this to you so I finish coffee.
Any tips about that?
Yeah.
So, so it depends on the size of your organization.
If you're an organization that has an intranet of some sort, maybe it's, it could be aformal intranet.
It could be some type of internal, um, like SharePoint site or something like that.
(30:16):
Usually you can find a search on something when it comes to development, um, tuition,different things like that.
And again, what I've, what I've noticed is that when you do these searches, you'llsometimes you'll see these companies will do
a couple of different things, either A, they'll do tuition reimbursement and, and then, orB, they'll do the development funds.
Sometimes they do both, but usually they do one or the other.
(30:39):
So I would first start with, with that is going to, um, your, internet page.
Also, I would go back to also if you're, if the internet page has benefits, for example,you can go to the benefits page and you usually will find something in that area.
If for some reason you can't find it there, what I would recommend is then go to HR andsay, hey, what are the benefits for development and learning and different things like
(31:06):
that?
That's one way you can do it.
And then let's just say that you're in an organization where that's just, you're not, it'snot robust or anything like that.
In some cases, if you, you basically write your problem statement, what you're trying tosolve and how it will help the organization to grow, to find that common ground.
In some cases, maybe you go to your leadership to see if they can earmark certain dollarsin their budget.
(31:32):
And in most cases, some of these investments are not, they're not sizable.
Like for example, it could be that let's say your company doesn't have anything and yousay, Hey, would you be willing to pay for me to have a LinkedIn learning account?
Which is, which is a nominal fee and has is a tremendous value.
So those are some tips that I would, I was saying that you can do within.
(31:54):
the confines of your workplace.
But one of the things too is making use of networking as well.
So like if one of the things you'll start to learn is you'll start to see certain peoplein your organization that are constantly learning or doing different things.
And sometimes they have some tips or they even have some recommendations as well on how tomake use of company investment.
(32:19):
yeah, that's that's a good idea.
I love the idea of laying out your your sort of cost benefit ratio and you know, likehere's what here's how we're gonna I'm going to contribute back to the company.
I would also say make sure you you keep track of sort of the benefits that you gain, youknow, so lay out that that case up front in terms of why you you know, why those funds are
going to help you but then you know, you're you probably are going to have you know,either if it's not twice a year at least once a year you're going to have
(32:45):
reviews where you need to talk about what you've done and how you've grown over the courseof that year for promotions and raises and things like that.
Take that information into that conversation.
So by the way, I did X, Y, and Z, and then I did this.
I used my development funds to do this and that and the other.
And this is the way that it helped me in my job.
And so then show them the results of what you've done.
(33:09):
Yeah, I actually, I'm glad you said that because one of the things that I do, and it doessometimes incorporate these learning and development things once a month, I have on my
calendar to do what I call a business challenge matrix.
helps me to, because if you don't, you'll forget, like you said, right.
it basically, you know, it's really simple.
(33:30):
It's a column that's like business challenge or problem statement, what my strategy wasand then the execution of results.
And so it's three columns.
And a lot of times those problem statements, part of the strategy could be adopt promptengineering as learned in my such and such course, along with other things as part of your
(33:51):
strategy and the result.
So those are ways you can correlate it back to business impact, which is a value add forthe organization.
And they're more likely to support you by doing that if you can draw correlations back tothat.
And then what you'll find is at the end of the year, when you're getting these reviews,they'll strongly see like, hey, when this person takes it upon themselves to learn these
(34:12):
skills or take advantage of in-house training or different things like that, then, youknow, they're invested.
They're more likely to be retained.
And if they're smart, the leader is doing, if the leader is paying attention, they'regoing to want to invest more in you or lean on you.
Right.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And the other thing that I would say is if, know, you know, to the people who are unsureor nervous about doing this, start small, you know, just start with something really small
(34:38):
and make those requests and make sure and align it with your specific role.
If that you feel more comfortable doing that before you branch out into more personalgrowth types of things.
that's just some tips.
Yeah.
Well, Ryan, this has been...
fun and informative.
Thank you so much for joining me to shine a light on this treasure trove of resources thatpeople, like you say, people been sleeping on.
(35:04):
I am tempted to name the episode, Get This Free Money.
Come get this free money.
I tell you, I get it.
But I tell you, some people, I just have a passion for learning.
And I just think that, why not invest in yourself?
(35:27):
And you got to have that curiosity.
Even if you're not curious, let's just say you're just as not, there's always methods andmethodologies and things that speak to you.
Even I've even said, for example, gamification.
Anything is learning like like, you know, if you like to play strategy games, whether it'svideo games or chess or something like that, believe it or not, even if you put yourself
(35:49):
into that, like even like spades where strategy that translates your your brain doesn'tknow if you're playing cards or you're doing business or you're writing code, it just
knows it's being stimulated.
So whatever learning is for you or how you learn or how you synthesize information again,your brain doesn't care.
Yeah, just.
just basically make sure it doesn't go atrophy.
(36:10):
whatever helps you to learn, you got to just do that.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
You talk about brain atrophy, because I'm old, man, you know, and I love to play thesegames on my phone.
It's just like just simple little like math games or whatever, or strategy games.
And I'll do it while I'm just sitting, you know, like it's the way that I unwind at theend of the day.
I'm sitting in front of the TV watching something completely mindless.
(36:33):
And I'm actually not paying attention.
I'm just doing the game on my phone.
It's like just trying to keep in those neurons firing, you know, like just trying to keepmy brain, you know, fresh.
No, and it's important.
And that's where I really see like, I think people who aren't doubling down to reallyleverage AI as an extension themselves are missing out on, your point on synthesizing and
(36:57):
understanding information to help you to learn and to, like you said, keep those firing inall cylinders.
It's a lot of stuff you could do.
Speaking of AI, I was thinking about this the other day.
And it's funny because I, so I pay for Google Workspace, which includes Gemini as theirnew AI that they've got, which is free.
(37:18):
But I had ChatGPT Plus before Gemini came out, right?
So like I still have ChatGPT and I was debating about giving one up.
But the funny thing is I was sort of, being frugal, I was being that frugal businessperson.
And then I thought about, because ChatGPT Plus is $20 a month.
And honestly,
That is the cheapest employee I have in my company.
(37:38):
I mean, I will tell Chad TPT, I'm like, okay, think like a marketing expert.
then I give it, know, like back to that prompt engineering.
And again, the results that I get have to pair with my wisdom.
I have to pair it with the things that I know, but the results that I get out of it, I'mlike, yeah, it's, know, I don't want to pay $20 a month, but again, if I think of it like
an employee, like an intern, you know, like it's a pretty cheap resource, you know, if youthink about it in those terms.
(38:03):
Well, I'll tell you this, like one of the things that, cause again, I'm thinking aboutscale and I'm thinking about multiplying what I can do by extension.
So one of the things that I also do with that is I, I curate a matrix, that I have like ona spreadsheet and I have tabs that have different types of scenarios and I have built and
(38:25):
engineered different word prompts for different types of scenarios.
So that way I can, I can move.
move very stealthily, very with velocity.
So in some cases, you know, having certain situations.
So that way you're you're it kind of reminds me back in the day when you would write amacro for an Excel spreadsheet.
(38:46):
I know, Corey is listening.
was like corey's listening he's like yay macra he's the spreadsheet king
You know how that painstaking process that you would do to write down step by step whatyou do for macro, it may take you hours, but then it saves you seconds and minutes.
It's worth it.
So that's what I mean by curating some of those things to your point.
(39:09):
The other thing I would say to Rachel is learning how, because not all tools do the samething in the way of prompting.
So like, you know,
Like I use chat, GBT, I use cloud, I use Gemini some, sometimes I even use things liketools like Otter AI, for example, is a good one.
(39:31):
And my company just got us access to the full version of Co-Pilot, which is I'm startingto experiment with right now, which is, which is pretty crazy because it literally goes
like in under this right app.
goes across all your.
all your documents that are in Office 365.
(39:52):
So you can write prompts to gather information from everywhere.
learning how to do the prompt.
Again, prompting is analog.
The tool can be agnostic and different, but to your point, it's just putting the time tounderstand how to do that and scale.
Like you said, let it be an extension.
You have all these different assistants and employees that work for you.
(40:13):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Well, again, this has been awesome.
I think we need to wrap it up here.
I want to say to my listeners, as always, thank you for listening.
I encourage you to review your company's professional development policies and explore thepotential for professional and personal growth opportunities.
Take it like say, come get this free money, man.
(40:33):
I'd love to hear your ideas and experiences.
call or text us at 404-425-9862.
You can connect with us on social media at Ask Imperfect Genius.
If you've got questions for Ryan, give us a call and ask the questions.
I'll invite him back and he can answer your questions.
I'm looking for questions, y'all.
If you'd like to use your professional development funds to connect with other women, ifyou're a woman of color in an underrepresented field like technology or entrepreneurship,
(40:59):
and you want to use your professional development funds to connect with other women ofcolor in underrepresented fields or
to access this episode's video version, you can head over tocommunity.imperfectgenius.com.
I should mention that the video versions are for everyone.
That's not just for women of color.
So if you want to see the video version, you got to see this cool hat that Ryan's got on.
can't like, if you just listen into the audio, you are not appreciating the full visualthat we have of Mr.
(41:26):
Ryan Fortman.
I have a habit as you know.
Yes, I know.
I your hat habit.
I love it.
So if you want to see that, if you want to see the full and living color version of Ryanand his hat, again, head over to community.imperfectgenius.com.
Our travelogues plan will give you access to the video version.
(41:47):
And until next time, this is Rachel Foster reminding you that while your journey may notbe flawless, it can be phenomenal.
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