June 30, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode, Aurora sits down with Registered Counsellor Neesha Chhiba to explore decolonial approaches to counselling children in South Africa. They discuss the historical, socioeconomic, and cultural factors shaping mental health challenges, the limitations of Western-centric psychology, and practical ways to integrate culturally responsive care into practice.
Connect with Neesha📧 neeshachhibarc@gmail.com
📸 Instagram.com/neeshachhiba_rc_counselling
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👇 Chapters00:00:00 Land acknowledgement
00:00:28 Title credits
00:00:52 Welcome and introduction
00:01:54 About the work of Neesha Chhiba
00:12:43 Factors impacting the mental health of children in South Africa
00:29:30 Decolonial practice with children
00:42:34 End credits
📚 ReferencesCochrane, L. and Chellan, W. (2017). "The Group Areas Act affected us all": Apartheid and Socio-Religious Change in the Cape Town Muslim Community, South Africa, Oral History Forum D’histoire Orale, 2. http://www.oralhistoryforum.ca/index.php/ohf/article/download/644/724.
DeepTheme Audio. Analog Bubbles. ZapSplat. https://www.zapsplat.com/music/analog-bubbles-dreamy-calm-and-carefree-musical-bumper-stinger-intro-outro/
Miles, D. Shades of Orange. ZapSplat. https://www.zapsplat.com/music/shades-of-orange-a-serene-relaxing-warm-ambient-piece-with-slow-mellow-chords-perfect-for-relaxation-meditation-etc/
Ngubane, N.P. and De Gama, B.Z. (2024). The influence of culture on the cause, diagnosis and treatment of serious mental illness (Ufufunyana): Perspectives of traditional health practitioners in the Harry Gwala District, KwaZulu-Natal, Culture Medicine and Psychiatry, 48(3), pp. 634–654. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11013-024-09863-7
Perks, B. (2024). Trauma Proof. ITHAKA.
Yehuda, R. (2022). How parents' trauma leaves biological traces in children, SCIAM.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Aurora Brown and Intersectional Psychology acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians
(00:08):
of country throughout South Africa, and their connections to land, water and community.
We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Indigenous
people listening today.
(00:29):
Hello and welcome back to Intersectional Psychology, the podcast that explores psychology's role
(00:57):
in promoting social justice. I'm your host, Aurora Brown. I'm a Registered Counsellor
in Cape Town, South Africa. I am so glad you're here. Today we are ending off our series on
Decolonizing Mental Health for now, and we'll be talking to Registered Counsellor Neesha Chhiba
(01:19):
about trauma-informed decolonial practice with children. Before we get into the interview,
I just want to give a quick shout out and thank you to the wonderful Patreons that make
this podcast possible. If you would also like to support the podcast and get additional
bonus content, just go to patreon.com forward slash Intersectional Psychology. We'd love
(01:47):
to have you. And now, let's get into my interview with Neesha.
(02:17):
Neesha Chhiba is a Registered Counsellor based in Cape Town who works with a variety of wellness-based
difficulties. Aside from her private practice, she also works in employee assistance and
NGO spaces, offering her support on a community-based level. Some of the work Neesha does entails
(02:42):
running workshops for the youth that raise awareness around diversity and stress management.
As a Registered Counsellor, she is inspired to do work that contributes to helping people
flourish by not just surviving, but thriving. So, Neesha, welcome to the podcast.
(03:05):
Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction.
What can we know about you and your work?
You know, I think when I think about what truly drives me in my work, it's definitely
about helping people not just survive, but to thrive, which was something that was pretty
(03:26):
common we were studying, but it remains true. But that passion didn't come out of nowhere.
It's really deeply rooted in how I was raised. So, I grew up in a very blended family and
my parents had never married, and my father had married. So, I often bounced between two
completely different worlds, really, because they had completely different contrasting
(03:52):
belief systems, which I'll get into in a moment and why that's relevant later on. But my parents
were really hardworking. I was mostly raised by my grandparents as a result of spending
half of my time with my parents and the other half with my grandparents. Like, you know,
many children in Cape Town, and I would say the rest of South Africa as well. So, on one
(04:13):
side my paternal grandparents were Hindu and they lived in Rhyalans, and on the other side
my paternal grandparents were Muslim and they lived in Newfields, which is right near that
edge of an overclock. So, spending time between those two homes meant that I was constantly
moving between two different faiths, two cultures, and honestly I presented a lot of moral and
(04:36):
ethical questions from me as a child. My parents gave me that freedom to choose my own path
spiritually, which is a big responsibility for a child. So, I had the benefit of time. At the
time though, I didn't have a language for what I was experiencing. I didn't really know what
intersectionality was, but I definitely felt it. I experienced it. I noticed how things like
(05:00):
gender and class shaped the way I was treated in religious spaces. For example, if I showed up
as a young girl without the right outfit, whether it was like a Salatop or, you know, traditional
Indian wear, I'd get disapproving looks from all the old aunties. But boys could show up in a
pair of jeans and a button-down shirt and no one would bat an eye. So, in that way, I could sort
(05:24):
of see the gender aspect to that. But even when it came to class, the kind of jewellery I wore or
didn't wear seemed to carry meanings. There were these subtle elements, but it was clear that class
and gender mattered from a very young age and not always in ways that felt fair or kind.
That's it. There were always real moments of beauty and just excitement. So,
(05:48):
Diwali and Eid were magical. There was food. There was laughter. There was connection and
community. And if you stuck around long enough, usually around the kitchen, you'd hear all those
shared stories that might be an old uncle or an old auntie would just come to visit you that day.
And they would really share their stories and a lot of it related to their pain, their displacement
(06:11):
under the group areas act, how those struggles shaped our neighborhoods, our community. And
those moments really stuck with me. So, aspects such as activism, resilience, and a strong sense
of duty to the next generation were just part of the air that I breathe. There was this aspect of,
we've laid down this foundation for you. It's your job to now build on that foundation to make
(06:35):
it a better world for the next generation. And the key message was always educate yourself.
Knowledge is power. So, use what you learned to lift others up. We've come this far. It's your
turn to build on that legacy. And it is such an amazing journey that I'm still learning a little
(06:56):
bit about. And I'm keen to help them fulfill that. So, that's what I'm here to do. Help others thrive
because that's the future we really all deserve. Just to speak a little bit more to my work as
a counselor. So, I'm a Registered Counsellor. And I work in three key areas of my work. So,
(07:16):
firstly, I provide individual counseling to a wide array of clients from children through to adults.
And I offer tailored support for their emotional, psychological, and developmental challenges.
And secondly, I facilitate community workshops that promote mental health awareness,
emotional resilience, holistic well-being. And lastly, I lead support groups that create safe,
(07:44):
nurturing environments for individuals to sort of just share, heal, and grow together.
A significant part of my practice though involves working with the youth. So, there's always that
community aspect in the sense that I'm delivering interactive workshops that focus on like really
crucial topics that the youth face at the moment. So, things like diversity and inclusion, building
(08:08):
on that, managing stress, understanding and processing trauma, preventing substance abuse.
These sessions aim to just empower young people with tools that they need to build that sort of
critical thinking and self-awareness so that they can make informed choices and cultivate
(08:28):
their emotional resilience, which is such a big aspect to managing all of the dodgeballs that
life is sort of throwing at us. So, at the heart of my work is a commitment to creating an inclusive,
supportive space where individuals feel heard and respected and empowered to thrive.
Thank you for sharing so openly. I love hearing how your experiences of intersectionality
(08:58):
developed through your own experiences, even as a child. You spoke about the socio-cultural
differences between the Hindu and Muslim sides of your family, but I'm sure that experience also
enabled you to see the similarities across the faiths, like celebrations of Diwali and
(09:22):
Eid characterized by an emphasis on food and community. You know, while there were key
differences growing up, both sides of my family really came together on the similarity aspect,
and that really created a good sense of community and unity for all of us. I think it made us much
stronger as a family. What are some of the most common presenting complaints related to
(09:49):
mental health in those communities? So, I would say currently, as I offer quite a lot of face-to-face
counseling, the main community that I serve is the Cape Town community, particularly around the
southern suburbs. And, you know, with the climate that we currently live in, some of the main sort
of complaints or areas that I work with is around personal safety, stress management,
(10:13):
including stress related to health concerns, which as you know, mental health and the body,
they're all quite connected. So chronic issues always features. Gang-related violence is a big one
that really affects such a wide area of our community. And obviously, building on that
work of diversity and inclusion, I feel that that is something that we actually have to maintain
(10:37):
constantly. And especially as our modern climate develops, that looks much different in our current
climate. Dating and healthy relationships are a really big aspect. People are more curious,
they really want to know, how can I be healthy in my relationships? How can I have a long-lasting
commitment that is healthy for me and my partner? And how can we come together to really bridge gaps
(11:00):
and support each other? As you know, our unemployment rate is really, really high in
South Africa. So a big subject that I also offer counseling and, you know, sort of managing with
is career opportunities and how to put yourself out there. What kind of language do you need to use?
(11:20):
What are the aspects that are maybe holding you back a bit? And as well as overall well-being. So
overall well-being in the sense that are we doing task management perhaps? Are we doing stress
management? Are there other aspects at play? And childhood always seems to come into it,
whether you're a child or an adult seeing me. So personal and community transformation, big
(11:43):
aspect to it, family systems and supports, and just coping with ongoing trauma. As you know,
there are so many aspects to ongoing trauma in the sense that for many people, children, adults,
in these sort of underprivileged communities, that is a continuous trauma. They are constantly
(12:04):
going through this and there's this culture of we just need to keep going. And so going and
working through those emotional and sort of reasoning things, how we reason through those
emotional turmoil aspects is a big part of my job. It sounds like many of those challenges are likely
(12:28):
overlapping in the lives of the same clients. Thousand percent. I mean, there really is always
that interplay between the individual and their community and the knock on an impact between
both of them so that that really rings true.
(13:10):
What are the historical, sociocultural and economic factors that contribute to those mental health
challenges? So for a little bit of historical context, we went through something called the
parTech, which essentially, if you directly translated that word, it means separation,
(13:34):
and it was implemented on a government level back in sort of the 1900s and that entire period,
but it obviously stretched on way before that. But just to speak to that, the long-lasting impact
that it had on communities of color and effects that are still really evident today, one of the
big ones that we can still see today and that still impacts many communities today was something
(13:59):
called the Group Areas Act, which essentially pushed people of color into the outskirts
of the communities, essentially. So those sorts of aspects limited those communities on various
levels, things like generational wealth, things like even as simple as getting to work, it was
(14:24):
costly. They had to change their grown-up there that made these communities and they were so
strongly bonded, and that was essentially ripped away from them. So although that act has been
long abolished, it's disrupted the financial and educational opportunities of many families,
so having access to good education, being able to study further for many is
(14:49):
something that's a big financial burden that they couldn't really put on their families,
and it's either you work really hard to get a bursary and you hope you get in and someone
will continue to sponsor you, and you can improve your community that way, or you just find work
and you try and keep going. So even now, that legacy of that policy, as I explained, still
(15:14):
persists, many of those formerly designated areas are still underdeveloped. So if you visit Cape
Town one day and you visit areas like Langa, Kailitsha, the Cape Plats, you will see that
they're really underdeveloped and underresourced. Those are areas with the highest amount of
prime rates, so residents there still continue to face long commutes to work, particularly based on
(15:39):
the way in Cape Town, like the geographical, where the areas are placed. You'll notice more
areas that are underdeveloped on the outskirts, and they don't have as much access to the main
routes into the city, and those routes into the city are quite long commutes, and they're really
expensive when they do have to go to work. So things like getting a car is a big aspect, which is
(16:04):
another expensive aspect that they have to consider. So as a consequence of that geographical
separation that was enforced by apartheid, overcrowded housing is such a big aspect
in those areas with profound implications and family dynamics. Just to give you a good example of
(16:25):
something like that, for example, if you are living in these communities and you and your
spouse decide you want to divorce, it is not as easy as simply just moving into another house,
into another area. That is not an option for many of those families, so what they end up doing
is often they'll end up bordering half of the house. So traditionally in heterosexual
(16:49):
relationships, the one partner will go on the one side, and the other partner will go on the other
side, and the kids are left somewhere in between. And even then, in a lot of those communities,
extended family and grandparents and aunties tend to stay in those houses. So overcrowding is such a
big thing because a lot of people can't afford housing these days, even with the extra support
(17:15):
the government offers. There's other implications to those things as well. And then just to build on
that, that government has made a lot of effort towards nation building and racial integration
but these environments are quite harsh and they really reinforce a sense of exclusion
(17:37):
and marginalization. You know, it's very hard to visit Kailiica and that's where you live,
and then one day you're going to visit a very rich area like Camps Bay where there's all this
privilege and to go, well, there's clearly a big difference between me and them and to not feel
some way about it. So as a result, many individuals face mental health challenges related to identity
(18:02):
belonging and the scars of systemic inequality are still something much of the older generation
is still working through today. There was a study that came out and one thing that really stuck
with me in that study, I'll read this quote to you, but it says, social and religious change
are ongoing processes and individuals and communities do not exist in the static social
(18:27):
and religious states and they don't experience change at a constant rate. Instead, change occurs
at different times, places, rates, and in relation to a range of direct and indirect shifts. So even
with, you know, particular underprivileged communities, often what happens is that, you know,
people will compare, they'll be like, oh, well, Athlon isn't as bad as another park
(18:51):
or this area slightly better off. They're still varying degrees of being underprivileged, but
those aspects are sort of played into in that way. So that would be the historical side of it,
as I put it. But if we're looking at the socioeconomic side, not that I am much of a business,
(19:15):
a business wise person, but the socioeconomic effects of apartheid were really great. And
they've led many people of color to view mental health care as a costly privilege. And that
continues to be reinforced by, you know, our wider community and support on a government level
towards facilitating more access to mental health facilities for people in these communities.
(19:41):
I would say a lot of mental health protection, like practitioners are not being supported enough
on government level efforts to provide services to these communities and that there could be more
work done in that area. So mental health is seen as like a costly thing. And often what happens,
(20:02):
there's things like comparison, they'll be like, oh, well, that person, you know,
I'm not as bad as the next person is that sense of dismissiveness. Oh, that person
actually is going through problems by comparison. I'm not going through anything,
which as we know is very much untrue. I think we all have our own journey. And
the childhood trauma that erupted around and sort of around that apartheid era and that continues
(20:28):
to affect, for example, parenting styles today also has quite a big impact, especially if we're
looking at poverty. So things like teenage pregnancies and underprivileged communities,
they perpetuate cycles of poverty for then crunching those families and systems in that state.
(20:49):
So that's one aspect of it. So additionally, things like
Hello, it's me, Aurora. Please excuse me interrupting my own podcast.
(21:15):
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(21:36):
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(22:54):
Cultural attitudes to mental health are continuing to evolve, I would say, but they're also being
shaped by the influence of modern technology and global conflicts as you know with the wars
overseas, particularly in developed countries. And I would just speak to modern technology a little
bit, a lot of like the psychology based language that we use is not being used often in the right
(23:18):
context. For example, when we're talking about, for example, you'll often find people being like,
oh no, I'm not talking to that person, I've cut them off completely because they're narcissistic,
they're toxic, which means something very difficult in like a diagnostic sense.
So our language around the difficulties that we face in the modern sense are constantly changing
(23:44):
and within Cape Town, South Africa, that often leads to a more Western view. So on a cultural
level, I will say culture plays such a vital role in shaping how mental illness is understood
and interpreted here, particularly in African communities. So people's cultural backgrounds,
(24:07):
including their values, their belief systems strongly influence how they look at symptoms
of mental health related difficulties and how they expand causes and treatment related to those
mental health conditions. Specifically, especially when we look at like things like traditional
healing, so perhaps they'll go to like a sangoma or they'll find a spiritual healer within their
(24:32):
community, as opposed to HPCSA Registered Counsellor for a multitude of reasons. One of them is that
community healers are seen as often more cost effective options for those in underprivileged
communities. So often, I mean, if you look at it from a spiritual aspect as well, when people
(24:56):
are going through really hard times, there's often a supernatural cause that's attributed to it.
For example, it's witchcraft or there's the presence of evil spirits. And those things are
often linked with psychosis. So they may interfere with people actually getting the help that they
need within larger systems. So there's this need for multicultural counselling within a
(25:18):
multidisciplinary aspect. So we as how can I say, registered practitioners and these traditional
healers need to often come together to really offer widespread community healing in that sense.
So as I mentioned earlier, there are several culturally rooted aspects that feature mental
(25:44):
health challenges. So another aspect that I feel I haven't mentioned yet is the societal pressure
on men and emotional expression. To a large extent, many conservative traditional men in these
communities. And maybe I wouldn't even say just the underprivileged communities, there's the sense
(26:04):
of the man has to have everything together. And he cannot express a lot of his feelings or
disappointments because that is a sign of weakness. I'll never forget, I was working with a child
not too long ago. And he said he was in a really sad situation. We had been moved around from family
(26:28):
member to family member. And when he was crying about these things, everyone laughed at him.
And they already as a young child, he felt like he couldn't share the turmoil that he felt. So
those are aspects that contribute to childhood trauma and also that sense of intersectionality of,
(26:49):
well, what is the expectation for men within the mental health challenge aspect.
And so a lot of those emotional repression, I would put it that way with men are reinforced by
common things like just we keep going, as well as coping mechanisms such as substance use.
(27:12):
And I would say in the modern climate that we're currently in, there are a lot more people who are
really abusing things like cannabis. So smoking exists amongst weed, which obviously has other
impact on things like work. People are finishing bottles of alcohol in a day just to cope. And
essentially, these are all ways of self medicating through the really difficult problems that they're
(27:36):
facing. But it also has other knock on effects. For example, the prevalence of issues like HIV
and AIDS is still big today, that also has an effect on mental health for both genders.
Political violence is still a big aspect. And also intergenerational trauma that stems from
(27:58):
European colonization. When I speak about intergenerational trauma, I'll touch on it a
little bit later. But the reason why that's so significant is because often when a pregnant
woman experiences a lot of stress, they found that sometimes once that child is born and as they
(28:18):
grow older, that stress has had such a big impact on their development. And it can increase their
likelihood for the chronic conditions and mental health related conditions like anxiety or PTSD.
So they are also the aspects to that.
(28:39):
And I believe that most of your clients are people of color. So the effects of oppression
and marginalization enacted by apartheid are still playing out in their lives today.
(29:02):
So
Neesha, you and I studied together. And when we reconnected sometime later,
(29:26):
you mentioned that through your practice, you had realized the need for a more decolonial
approach to mental health in South Africa. How do you feel our training prepared us for working
as counselors? And what led to your shift towards decolonizing mental health?
(29:47):
So to answer it this way, I do think it's essential that we meet clients where they are both emotionally
and culturally, that our training is ongoing, and that it shouldn't just be at some big old workshop
where we've paid, you know, a button of money to attend, but it should also be meeting leaders
(30:11):
and wise people within these communities and leaning on their knowledge and their deeper
understanding of sort of the conflicts that go on and to really engage and go,
how can we meet in the middle and share information to really better this aspect?
So our multidisciplinary approach should also be a multicultural one and should be grounded
(30:31):
in the client's context and, you know, also combine some of our understandings of Western,
you know, psychology principles and philosophy. I believe we have received quite a strong,
you know, training or practical training at Cornerstone. I think we were quite privileged in
the sense that we had the freedom to share our ideas and collaborate with each other and engage
(30:55):
meaningfully with our lecturers in a way that, you know, they knew our names, we were interested
in number, and we build on these conversations. There was always just such an open dialogue
that really enriched my learning experience. And while this training did lay an excellent
foundation for us, as I mentioned, that ongoing professional development is so crucial. It feels
(31:21):
like the real learning has happened after our training and that everything was just character
building up until that point. So my personal journey towards decolonizing psychology began
when I met Shaheeda because she was a lecturer at CECAP, I believe. And I think she had run courses
on decolonizing psychology and she'd obviously read and studied and researched so much on it.
(31:45):
And we had such a deeply engaging, you know, set of conversations that really shifted my
thinking. I stopped using language like, yes, we're going to do CBT today. That was the kind
of language I stopped using. It shifted to things like, let's work through some of the
difficulties that you're facing. How do you feel like you're self-sabotaging today?
(32:06):
And that shift has just really improved my counseling overall, especially when I began
exploring this approach further during my work as a locum school counselor. She sort of introduced
me to the school and was like, hey, I need to take a bit of a sabbatical, would you be willing to
(32:28):
sort of step in for me? And maybe this could be a great experience for you. And from there,
I really had to make use of that decolonizing psychology because kids are the foundation,
sort of, they're the main aspect of where we want to offer preventative, you know,
assistance for other chronic conditions and other mental health challenges. So it really was sort
(32:51):
of the start or the seed of something there. I love to hear that you've connected with registered
counselor Shaheeda Sadek. She's really helped me to expand my thinking around decolonial practice too.
As you say, children are living their most formative experiences and the way that they
(33:17):
see the world and their experiences now are going to shape the rest of their lives.
And also, identity is important. Knowing who you are and where you come from is important.
We'll talk more about this a bit later, but with the internet and globalization,
(33:39):
there may also be more influences on a child's life now than certainly when I was growing up
a bit older than you. Absolutely. So I would say, you know, I was born in 1999. So I'm like 25 now.
But even so, I think I only had the internet when I was like 14. And that was around when the internet
(34:04):
was less complicated to use. And even so, I feel that every few years, the constant change that
we're having with technology and making it more accessible has really transformed every new
sort of generation that's come along. Now, in the previous episode, we spoke to Shaheeda about
(34:29):
what decolonial counseling looks like in general practice. What does decolonizing mental health
mean to you when working with children? So one key takeaway from our training that I would bring
into this response of mine is that there really was an emphasis on moving away from that one size
(34:53):
fits all approach when it comes to working with mental health, especially with children, even
more so with adults. So it's essential to recognize and sort of respect that these diverse
backgrounds of the children we work with, so using languages and practices that are culturally
meaningful is absolutely essential when we're looking at that aspect of decolonizing psychology.
(35:18):
And also to honor those traditional understandings of mental health and distress is so important.
For example, one thing that really stuck with me in our training, and it really blew my mind was
that, for example, in closer, there is no direct translation for the word depression.
There may be other similar words that could describe on a much different scale,
(35:43):
that sort of feeling. But that is so important in terms of mental health and having a community
that has a language for the challenges that they face in the current time that we're in. So
recognizing these linguistic and cultural differences helps create space for children to
express their emotions freely, especially when caregivers, elders and community leaders are
(36:07):
involved in the process. So really getting by in from parents, from these religious leaders to
sort of support their communities because they're working in those spaces and you want to make sure
that those resources are as accessible as possible. So gaining parental support or caregiver support
especially and respecting their community specific values around child rearing is just vital to
(36:32):
ensuring that that therapeutic or that safe environment that we want to create is inclusive,
it is empowering and it is genuinely supportive. So we must also remain of how historical trauma
can shape children's mental health and behavior. And there's actually an amazing study that was done
where research was done by this author called Yehuda in 2022 that showed that trauma can be
(37:01):
biological imprints on subsequent generations, many generations after, for example, studies have
documented how low courtes or levels in children of Holocaust survivors. And they've replicated
this finding among survivors of other logical traumatic events, for example, like year nine
11. So while this might initially suggest a predisposition to mental vulnerabilities,
(37:27):
there's emerging evidence that these epigenetic responses may also serve as adaptive mechanisms
to help children navigate these similar hardships. So it's interesting that a lot of what was going
on for those parents, as they were getting ready for this wonderful life to be born into this world,
there were so many aspects that came into it. You're not just carrying, for example,
(37:49):
put it this way, you're not just carrying the trauma of your mother, you're carrying the trauma of
your grandmother, your great-grandmother, the stresses that they faced, and those all built
in. So having a generation now currently that we're working with and aiming to break those sort
of generational difficulties is such big work for us within this field. So it's absolutely such
(38:15):
such a privilege to work with these groups. And finally, you know, sort of that language and
communication, as I mentioned earlier, play a fundamental role. So providing services, for
example, in the child's home language, often if the child's first language and they really struggle
with English is not, you know, like their home language is not English, I often find it's better
(38:35):
to refer on there are plenty of counselors that can assist. And it's important that we know our
network and know who to call as part of our assistance and care. So, and it's also important
because you want to be attuned to how behaviors and symptoms in those cultures can be, you know,
(39:00):
really spoken to and promoted. So promoting self-awareness and cultural pride and advocating
for more inclusive mental health and school-based policies can really help create a supportive
foundation where all children and families feel seen, heard, and valued. When I worked at the
school, it wasn't just about, you know, seeing the client in the session during the school day
(39:23):
for 30 minutes. It was also, you know, what's happening and getting parents in and chatting
to them and having the conversation. And often, you know, it made them think about their own
journey and, you know, seeing, oh, okay, well, this is how we can. So really working together
with families and parents and staff is so important. Often, you'll find a lot of the
difficulties children face. And these other supportive structures also influence others'
(39:48):
things as well. Thank you, Neesha. I love the work that you're doing. And most cultures in
South Africa are collectivistic. You know, they're all about the importance of the family and the
community as a unit or Ubuntu, you know, where if one of us is unwell, then we're all unwell.
(40:10):
And that's why it's really important to involve every member of the family in the solutions
to a child's presenting complaint, as you've said. Also, I'm so glad that you brought up
that research by Yehuda on how intergenerational trauma is transmitted through biology. I mentioned
(40:33):
it briefly in conversation with Shaheeda, but I didn't have the reference on hand at the time.
Thank you so much for listening to the first half of my interview with Neesha Chhiba.
Next week, she'll be back to talk to us about trauma-informed counseling with children.
Until then, look after yourself.
(41:03):
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(42:59):
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(00:08):
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people listening today.
(00:29):
Hello and welcome back to Intersectional Psychology, the podcast that explores psychology's role
(00:57):
in promoting social justice. I'm your host, Aurora Brown. I'm a Registered Counsellor
in Cape Town, South Africa. I am so glad you're here. Today we are ending off our series on
Decolonizing Mental Health for now, and we'll be talking to Registered Counsellor Neesha Chhiba
(01:19):
about trauma-informed decolonial practice with children. Before we get into the interview,
I just want to give a quick shout out and thank you to the wonderful Patreons that make
this podcast possible. If you would also like to support the podcast and get additional
bonus content, just go to patreon.com forward slash Intersectional Psychology. We'd love
(01:47):
to have you. And now, let's get into my interview with Neesha.
(02:17):
Neesha Chhiba is a Registered Counsellor based in Cape Town who works with a variety of wellness-based
difficulties. Aside from her private practice, she also works in employee assistance and
NGO spaces, offering her support on a community-based level. Some of the work Neesha does entails
(02:42):
running workshops for the youth that raise awareness around diversity and stress management.
As a Registered Counsellor, she is inspired to do work that contributes to helping people
flourish by not just surviving, but thriving. So, Neesha, welcome to the podcast.
(03:05):
Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction.
What can we know about you and your work?
You know, I think when I think about what truly drives me in my work, it's definitely
about helping people not just survive, but to thrive, which was something that was pretty
(03:26):
common we were studying, but it remains true. But that passion didn't come out of nowhere.
It's really deeply rooted in how I was raised. So, I grew up in a very blended family and
my parents had never married, and my father had married. So, I often bounced between two
completely different worlds, really, because they had completely different contrasting
(03:52):
belief systems, which I'll get into in a moment and why that's relevant later on. But my parents
were really hardworking. I was mostly raised by my grandparents as a result of spending
half of my time with my parents and the other half with my grandparents. Like, you know,
many children in Cape Town, and I would say the rest of South Africa as well. So, on one
(04:13):
side my paternal grandparents were Hindu and they lived in Rhyalans, and on the other side
my paternal grandparents were Muslim and they lived in Newfields, which is right near that
edge of an overclock. So, spending time between those two homes meant that I was constantly
moving between two different faiths, two cultures, and honestly I presented a lot of moral and
(04:36):
ethical questions from me as a child. My parents gave me that freedom to choose my own path
spiritually, which is a big responsibility for a child. So, I had the benefit of time. At the
time though, I didn't have a language for what I was experiencing. I didn't really know what
intersectionality was, but I definitely felt it. I experienced it. I noticed how things like
(05:00):
gender and class shaped the way I was treated in religious spaces. For example, if I showed up
as a young girl without the right outfit, whether it was like a Salatop or, you know, traditional
Indian wear, I'd get disapproving looks from all the old aunties. But boys could show up in a
pair of jeans and a button-down shirt and no one would bat an eye. So, in that way, I could sort
(05:24):
of see the gender aspect to that. But even when it came to class, the kind of jewellery I wore or
didn't wear seemed to carry meanings. There were these subtle elements, but it was clear that class
and gender mattered from a very young age and not always in ways that felt fair or kind.
That's it. There were always real moments of beauty and just excitement. So,
(05:48):
Diwali and Eid were magical. There was food. There was laughter. There was connection and
community. And if you stuck around long enough, usually around the kitchen, you'd hear all those
shared stories that might be an old uncle or an old auntie would just come to visit you that day.
And they would really share their stories and a lot of it related to their pain, their displacement
(06:11):
under the group areas act, how those struggles shaped our neighborhoods, our community. And
those moments really stuck with me. So, aspects such as activism, resilience, and a strong sense
of duty to the next generation were just part of the air that I breathe. There was this aspect of,
we've laid down this foundation for you. It's your job to now build on that foundation to make
(06:35):
it a better world for the next generation. And the key message was always educate yourself.
Knowledge is power. So, use what you learned to lift others up. We've come this far. It's your
turn to build on that legacy. And it is such an amazing journey that I'm still learning a little
(06:56):
bit about. And I'm keen to help them fulfill that. So, that's what I'm here to do. Help others thrive
because that's the future we really all deserve. Just to speak a little bit more to my work as
a counselor. So, I'm a Registered Counsellor. And I work in three key areas of my work. So,
(07:16):
firstly, I provide individual counseling to a wide array of clients from children through to adults.
And I offer tailored support for their emotional, psychological, and developmental challenges.
And secondly, I facilitate community workshops that promote mental health awareness,
emotional resilience, holistic well-being. And lastly, I lead support groups that create safe,
(07:44):
nurturing environments for individuals to sort of just share, heal, and grow together.
A significant part of my practice though involves working with the youth. So, there's always that
community aspect in the sense that I'm delivering interactive workshops that focus on like really
crucial topics that the youth face at the moment. So, things like diversity and inclusion, building
(08:08):
on that, managing stress, understanding and processing trauma, preventing substance abuse.
These sessions aim to just empower young people with tools that they need to build that sort of
critical thinking and self-awareness so that they can make informed choices and cultivate
(08:28):
their emotional resilience, which is such a big aspect to managing all of the dodgeballs that
life is sort of throwing at us. So, at the heart of my work is a commitment to creating an inclusive,
supportive space where individuals feel heard and respected and empowered to thrive.
Thank you for sharing so openly. I love hearing how your experiences of intersectionality
(08:58):
developed through your own experiences, even as a child. You spoke about the socio-cultural
differences between the Hindu and Muslim sides of your family, but I'm sure that experience also
enabled you to see the similarities across the faiths, like celebrations of Diwali and
(09:22):
Eid characterized by an emphasis on food and community. You know, while there were key
differences growing up, both sides of my family really came together on the similarity aspect,
and that really created a good sense of community and unity for all of us. I think it made us much
stronger as a family. What are some of the most common presenting complaints related to
(09:49):
mental health in those communities? So, I would say currently, as I offer quite a lot of face-to-face
counseling, the main community that I serve is the Cape Town community, particularly around the
southern suburbs. And, you know, with the climate that we currently live in, some of the main sort
of complaints or areas that I work with is around personal safety, stress management,
(10:13):
including stress related to health concerns, which as you know, mental health and the body,
they're all quite connected. So chronic issues always features. Gang-related violence is a big one
that really affects such a wide area of our community. And obviously, building on that
work of diversity and inclusion, I feel that that is something that we actually have to maintain
(10:37):
constantly. And especially as our modern climate develops, that looks much different in our current
climate. Dating and healthy relationships are a really big aspect. People are more curious,
they really want to know, how can I be healthy in my relationships? How can I have a long-lasting
commitment that is healthy for me and my partner? And how can we come together to really bridge gaps
(11:00):
and support each other? As you know, our unemployment rate is really, really high in
South Africa. So a big subject that I also offer counseling and, you know, sort of managing with
is career opportunities and how to put yourself out there. What kind of language do you need to use?
(11:20):
What are the aspects that are maybe holding you back a bit? And as well as overall well-being. So
overall well-being in the sense that are we doing task management perhaps? Are we doing stress
management? Are there other aspects at play? And childhood always seems to come into it,
whether you're a child or an adult seeing me. So personal and community transformation, big
(11:43):
aspect to it, family systems and supports, and just coping with ongoing trauma. As you know,
there are so many aspects to ongoing trauma in the sense that for many people, children, adults,
in these sort of underprivileged communities, that is a continuous trauma. They are constantly
(12:04):
going through this and there's this culture of we just need to keep going. And so going and
working through those emotional and sort of reasoning things, how we reason through those
emotional turmoil aspects is a big part of my job. It sounds like many of those challenges are likely
(12:28):
overlapping in the lives of the same clients. Thousand percent. I mean, there really is always
that interplay between the individual and their community and the knock on an impact between
both of them so that that really rings true.
(13:10):
What are the historical, sociocultural and economic factors that contribute to those mental health
challenges? So for a little bit of historical context, we went through something called the
parTech, which essentially, if you directly translated that word, it means separation,
(13:34):
and it was implemented on a government level back in sort of the 1900s and that entire period,
but it obviously stretched on way before that. But just to speak to that, the long-lasting impact
that it had on communities of color and effects that are still really evident today, one of the
big ones that we can still see today and that still impacts many communities today was something
(13:59):
called the Group Areas Act, which essentially pushed people of color into the outskirts
of the communities, essentially. So those sorts of aspects limited those communities on various
levels, things like generational wealth, things like even as simple as getting to work, it was
(14:24):
costly. They had to change their grown-up there that made these communities and they were so
strongly bonded, and that was essentially ripped away from them. So although that act has been
long abolished, it's disrupted the financial and educational opportunities of many families,
so having access to good education, being able to study further for many is
(14:49):
something that's a big financial burden that they couldn't really put on their families,
and it's either you work really hard to get a bursary and you hope you get in and someone
will continue to sponsor you, and you can improve your community that way, or you just find work
and you try and keep going. So even now, that legacy of that policy, as I explained, still
(15:14):
persists, many of those formerly designated areas are still underdeveloped. So if you visit Cape
Town one day and you visit areas like Langa, Kailitsha, the Cape Plats, you will see that
they're really underdeveloped and underresourced. Those are areas with the highest amount of
prime rates, so residents there still continue to face long commutes to work, particularly based on
(15:39):
the way in Cape Town, like the geographical, where the areas are placed. You'll notice more
areas that are underdeveloped on the outskirts, and they don't have as much access to the main
routes into the city, and those routes into the city are quite long commutes, and they're really
expensive when they do have to go to work. So things like getting a car is a big aspect, which is
(16:04):
another expensive aspect that they have to consider. So as a consequence of that geographical
separation that was enforced by apartheid, overcrowded housing is such a big aspect
in those areas with profound implications and family dynamics. Just to give you a good example of
(16:25):
something like that, for example, if you are living in these communities and you and your
spouse decide you want to divorce, it is not as easy as simply just moving into another house,
into another area. That is not an option for many of those families, so what they end up doing
is often they'll end up bordering half of the house. So traditionally in heterosexual
(16:49):
relationships, the one partner will go on the one side, and the other partner will go on the other
side, and the kids are left somewhere in between. And even then, in a lot of those communities,
extended family and grandparents and aunties tend to stay in those houses. So overcrowding is such a
big thing because a lot of people can't afford housing these days, even with the extra support
(17:15):
the government offers. There's other implications to those things as well. And then just to build on
that, that government has made a lot of effort towards nation building and racial integration
but these environments are quite harsh and they really reinforce a sense of exclusion
(17:37):
and marginalization. You know, it's very hard to visit Kailiica and that's where you live,
and then one day you're going to visit a very rich area like Camps Bay where there's all this
privilege and to go, well, there's clearly a big difference between me and them and to not feel
some way about it. So as a result, many individuals face mental health challenges related to identity
(18:02):
belonging and the scars of systemic inequality are still something much of the older generation
is still working through today. There was a study that came out and one thing that really stuck
with me in that study, I'll read this quote to you, but it says, social and religious change
are ongoing processes and individuals and communities do not exist in the static social
(18:27):
and religious states and they don't experience change at a constant rate. Instead, change occurs
at different times, places, rates, and in relation to a range of direct and indirect shifts. So even
with, you know, particular underprivileged communities, often what happens is that, you know,
people will compare, they'll be like, oh, well, Athlon isn't as bad as another park
(18:51):
or this area slightly better off. They're still varying degrees of being underprivileged, but
those aspects are sort of played into in that way. So that would be the historical side of it,
as I put it. But if we're looking at the socioeconomic side, not that I am much of a business,
(19:15):
a business wise person, but the socioeconomic effects of apartheid were really great. And
they've led many people of color to view mental health care as a costly privilege. And that
continues to be reinforced by, you know, our wider community and support on a government level
towards facilitating more access to mental health facilities for people in these communities.
(19:41):
I would say a lot of mental health protection, like practitioners are not being supported enough
on government level efforts to provide services to these communities and that there could be more
work done in that area. So mental health is seen as like a costly thing. And often what happens,
(20:02):
there's things like comparison, they'll be like, oh, well, that person, you know,
I'm not as bad as the next person is that sense of dismissiveness. Oh, that person
actually is going through problems by comparison. I'm not going through anything,
which as we know is very much untrue. I think we all have our own journey. And
the childhood trauma that erupted around and sort of around that apartheid era and that continues
(20:28):
to affect, for example, parenting styles today also has quite a big impact, especially if we're
looking at poverty. So things like teenage pregnancies and underprivileged communities,
they perpetuate cycles of poverty for then crunching those families and systems in that state.
(20:49):
So that's one aspect of it. So additionally, things like
Hello, it's me, Aurora. Please excuse me interrupting my own podcast.
(21:15):
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Thanks and back to Intersectional Psychology.
(22:54):
Cultural attitudes to mental health are continuing to evolve, I would say, but they're also being
shaped by the influence of modern technology and global conflicts as you know with the wars
overseas, particularly in developed countries. And I would just speak to modern technology a little
bit, a lot of like the psychology based language that we use is not being used often in the right
(23:18):
context. For example, when we're talking about, for example, you'll often find people being like,
oh no, I'm not talking to that person, I've cut them off completely because they're narcissistic,
they're toxic, which means something very difficult in like a diagnostic sense.
So our language around the difficulties that we face in the modern sense are constantly changing
(23:44):
and within Cape Town, South Africa, that often leads to a more Western view. So on a cultural
level, I will say culture plays such a vital role in shaping how mental illness is understood
and interpreted here, particularly in African communities. So people's cultural backgrounds,
(24:07):
including their values, their belief systems strongly influence how they look at symptoms
of mental health related difficulties and how they expand causes and treatment related to those
mental health conditions. Specifically, especially when we look at like things like traditional
healing, so perhaps they'll go to like a sangoma or they'll find a spiritual healer within their
(24:32):
community, as opposed to HPCSA Registered Counsellor for a multitude of reasons. One of them is that
community healers are seen as often more cost effective options for those in underprivileged
communities. So often, I mean, if you look at it from a spiritual aspect as well, when people
(24:56):
are going through really hard times, there's often a supernatural cause that's attributed to it.
For example, it's witchcraft or there's the presence of evil spirits. And those things are
often linked with psychosis. So they may interfere with people actually getting the help that they
need within larger systems. So there's this need for multicultural counselling within a
(25:18):
multidisciplinary aspect. So we as how can I say, registered practitioners and these traditional
healers need to often come together to really offer widespread community healing in that sense.
So as I mentioned earlier, there are several culturally rooted aspects that feature mental
(25:44):
health challenges. So another aspect that I feel I haven't mentioned yet is the societal pressure
on men and emotional expression. To a large extent, many conservative traditional men in these
communities. And maybe I wouldn't even say just the underprivileged communities, there's the sense
(26:04):
of the man has to have everything together. And he cannot express a lot of his feelings or
disappointments because that is a sign of weakness. I'll never forget, I was working with a child
not too long ago. And he said he was in a really sad situation. We had been moved around from family
(26:28):
member to family member. And when he was crying about these things, everyone laughed at him.
And they already as a young child, he felt like he couldn't share the turmoil that he felt. So
those are aspects that contribute to childhood trauma and also that sense of intersectionality of,
(26:49):
well, what is the expectation for men within the mental health challenge aspect.
And so a lot of those emotional repression, I would put it that way with men are reinforced by
common things like just we keep going, as well as coping mechanisms such as substance use.
(27:12):
And I would say in the modern climate that we're currently in, there are a lot more people who are
really abusing things like cannabis. So smoking exists amongst weed, which obviously has other
impact on things like work. People are finishing bottles of alcohol in a day just to cope. And
essentially, these are all ways of self medicating through the really difficult problems that they're
(27:36):
facing. But it also has other knock on effects. For example, the prevalence of issues like HIV
and AIDS is still big today, that also has an effect on mental health for both genders.
Political violence is still a big aspect. And also intergenerational trauma that stems from
(27:58):
European colonization. When I speak about intergenerational trauma, I'll touch on it a
little bit later. But the reason why that's so significant is because often when a pregnant
woman experiences a lot of stress, they found that sometimes once that child is born and as they
(28:18):
grow older, that stress has had such a big impact on their development. And it can increase their
likelihood for the chronic conditions and mental health related conditions like anxiety or PTSD.
So they are also the aspects to that.
(28:39):
And I believe that most of your clients are people of color. So the effects of oppression
and marginalization enacted by apartheid are still playing out in their lives today.
(29:02):
So
Neesha, you and I studied together. And when we reconnected sometime later,
(29:26):
you mentioned that through your practice, you had realized the need for a more decolonial
approach to mental health in South Africa. How do you feel our training prepared us for working
as counselors? And what led to your shift towards decolonizing mental health?
(29:47):
So to answer it this way, I do think it's essential that we meet clients where they are both emotionally
and culturally, that our training is ongoing, and that it shouldn't just be at some big old workshop
where we've paid, you know, a button of money to attend, but it should also be meeting leaders
(30:11):
and wise people within these communities and leaning on their knowledge and their deeper
understanding of sort of the conflicts that go on and to really engage and go,
how can we meet in the middle and share information to really better this aspect?
So our multidisciplinary approach should also be a multicultural one and should be grounded
(30:31):
in the client's context and, you know, also combine some of our understandings of Western,
you know, psychology principles and philosophy. I believe we have received quite a strong,
you know, training or practical training at Cornerstone. I think we were quite privileged in
the sense that we had the freedom to share our ideas and collaborate with each other and engage
(30:55):
meaningfully with our lecturers in a way that, you know, they knew our names, we were interested
in number, and we build on these conversations. There was always just such an open dialogue
that really enriched my learning experience. And while this training did lay an excellent
foundation for us, as I mentioned, that ongoing professional development is so crucial. It feels
(31:21):
like the real learning has happened after our training and that everything was just character
building up until that point. So my personal journey towards decolonizing psychology began
when I met Shaheeda because she was a lecturer at CECAP, I believe. And I think she had run courses
on decolonizing psychology and she'd obviously read and studied and researched so much on it.
(31:45):
And we had such a deeply engaging, you know, set of conversations that really shifted my
thinking. I stopped using language like, yes, we're going to do CBT today. That was the kind
of language I stopped using. It shifted to things like, let's work through some of the
difficulties that you're facing. How do you feel like you're self-sabotaging today?
(32:06):
And that shift has just really improved my counseling overall, especially when I began
exploring this approach further during my work as a locum school counselor. She sort of introduced
me to the school and was like, hey, I need to take a bit of a sabbatical, would you be willing to
(32:28):
sort of step in for me? And maybe this could be a great experience for you. And from there,
I really had to make use of that decolonizing psychology because kids are the foundation,
sort of, they're the main aspect of where we want to offer preventative, you know,
assistance for other chronic conditions and other mental health challenges. So it really was sort
(32:51):
of the start or the seed of something there. I love to hear that you've connected with registered
counselor Shaheeda Sadek. She's really helped me to expand my thinking around decolonial practice too.
As you say, children are living their most formative experiences and the way that they
(33:17):
see the world and their experiences now are going to shape the rest of their lives.
And also, identity is important. Knowing who you are and where you come from is important.
We'll talk more about this a bit later, but with the internet and globalization,
(33:39):
there may also be more influences on a child's life now than certainly when I was growing up
a bit older than you. Absolutely. So I would say, you know, I was born in 1999. So I'm like 25 now.
But even so, I think I only had the internet when I was like 14. And that was around when the internet
(34:04):
was less complicated to use. And even so, I feel that every few years, the constant change that
we're having with technology and making it more accessible has really transformed every new
sort of generation that's come along. Now, in the previous episode, we spoke to Shaheeda about
(34:29):
what decolonial counseling looks like in general practice. What does decolonizing mental health
mean to you when working with children? So one key takeaway from our training that I would bring
into this response of mine is that there really was an emphasis on moving away from that one size
(34:53):
fits all approach when it comes to working with mental health, especially with children, even
more so with adults. So it's essential to recognize and sort of respect that these diverse
backgrounds of the children we work with, so using languages and practices that are culturally
meaningful is absolutely essential when we're looking at that aspect of decolonizing psychology.
(35:18):
And also to honor those traditional understandings of mental health and distress is so important.
For example, one thing that really stuck with me in our training, and it really blew my mind was
that, for example, in closer, there is no direct translation for the word depression.
There may be other similar words that could describe on a much different scale,
(35:43):
that sort of feeling. But that is so important in terms of mental health and having a community
that has a language for the challenges that they face in the current time that we're in. So
recognizing these linguistic and cultural differences helps create space for children to
express their emotions freely, especially when caregivers, elders and community leaders are
(36:07):
involved in the process. So really getting by in from parents, from these religious leaders to
sort of support their communities because they're working in those spaces and you want to make sure
that those resources are as accessible as possible. So gaining parental support or caregiver support
especially and respecting their community specific values around child rearing is just vital to
(36:32):
ensuring that that therapeutic or that safe environment that we want to create is inclusive,
it is empowering and it is genuinely supportive. So we must also remain of how historical trauma
can shape children's mental health and behavior. And there's actually an amazing study that was done
where research was done by this author called Yehuda in 2022 that showed that trauma can be
(37:01):
biological imprints on subsequent generations, many generations after, for example, studies have
documented how low courtes or levels in children of Holocaust survivors. And they've replicated
this finding among survivors of other logical traumatic events, for example, like year nine
11. So while this might initially suggest a predisposition to mental vulnerabilities,
(37:27):
there's emerging evidence that these epigenetic responses may also serve as adaptive mechanisms
to help children navigate these similar hardships. So it's interesting that a lot of what was going
on for those parents, as they were getting ready for this wonderful life to be born into this world,
there were so many aspects that came into it. You're not just carrying, for example,
(37:49):
put it this way, you're not just carrying the trauma of your mother, you're carrying the trauma of
your grandmother, your great-grandmother, the stresses that they faced, and those all built
in. So having a generation now currently that we're working with and aiming to break those sort
of generational difficulties is such big work for us within this field. So it's absolutely such
(38:15):
such a privilege to work with these groups. And finally, you know, sort of that language and
communication, as I mentioned earlier, play a fundamental role. So providing services, for
example, in the child's home language, often if the child's first language and they really struggle
with English is not, you know, like their home language is not English, I often find it's better
(38:35):
to refer on there are plenty of counselors that can assist. And it's important that we know our
network and know who to call as part of our assistance and care. So, and it's also important
because you want to be attuned to how behaviors and symptoms in those cultures can be, you know,
(39:00):
really spoken to and promoted. So promoting self-awareness and cultural pride and advocating
for more inclusive mental health and school-based policies can really help create a supportive
foundation where all children and families feel seen, heard, and valued. When I worked at the
school, it wasn't just about, you know, seeing the client in the session during the school day
(39:23):
for 30 minutes. It was also, you know, what's happening and getting parents in and chatting
to them and having the conversation. And often, you know, it made them think about their own
journey and, you know, seeing, oh, okay, well, this is how we can. So really working together
with families and parents and staff is so important. Often, you'll find a lot of the
difficulties children face. And these other supportive structures also influence others'
(39:48):
things as well. Thank you, Neesha. I love the work that you're doing. And most cultures in
South Africa are collectivistic. You know, they're all about the importance of the family and the
community as a unit or Ubuntu, you know, where if one of us is unwell, then we're all unwell.
(40:10):
And that's why it's really important to involve every member of the family in the solutions
to a child's presenting complaint, as you've said. Also, I'm so glad that you brought up
that research by Yehuda on how intergenerational trauma is transmitted through biology. I mentioned
(40:33):
it briefly in conversation with Shaheeda, but I didn't have the reference on hand at the time.
Thank you so much for listening to the first half of my interview with Neesha Chhiba.
Next week, she'll be back to talk to us about trauma-informed counseling with children.
Until then, look after yourself.
(41:03):
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This episode of Intersectional Psychology was researched, written, recorded and edited by me
Aurora Brown. For a transcript of this episode, please see the link in the show notes on your
podcast app or go to intersectionalsychology.com. You can also check the website or the show notes
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for a full list of references for this episode. A video of this episode with closed captions
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(42:37):
but mostly blue sky.
Aurora Brown and Intersectional Psychology are committed to the site Black Women Praxis.
All episodes of Intersectional Psychology are for educational purposes only and are not intended
(42:59):
to be a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment.
I, Aurora Brown, am not able to answer specific questions about individual situations.
Always seek the advice of your health provider with any questions you may have regarding a
mental health condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because
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please call your local emergency number or any mental health crisis hotline.
Everyone deserves good mental health.
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