July 7, 2025 • 37 mins
Aurora and Neesha delve deeper into trauma-informed counselling for children in South Africa. They discuss the lingering effects of systemic oppression, practical approaches to trauma care for young clients, and how parents and professionals can support healing. Neesha also shares essential self-care strategies for those working in emotionally demanding fields.
Download a transcript of this episode on IntersectionalPsychology.com.
Connect with Neesha📧 neeshachhibarc@gmail.com
📸 Instagram.com/neeshachhiba_rc_counselling
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👇 Chapter timestamps00:00:00 Land acknowledgement
00:00:28 Title credits
00:00:49 Welcome and introduction
00:01:17 Power, freedom, and difference in mental health care
00:09:36 Trauma-informed mental health care with children
00:20:11 How parents can support the mental health of their children
00:29:11 Trauma-informed self care
00:33:07 Navigating the future of child mental health care
00:34:37 End credits
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📮 Got feedback or questions? Reach out at @IntersectionalPsychology
This episode of Intersectional Psychology was researched, written, recorded, and edited by Aurora Brown.
📚 ReferencesCochrane, L. and Chellan, W. (2017). "The Group Areas Act affected us all": Apartheid and Socio-Religious Change in the Cape Town Muslim Community, South Africa, Oral History Forum D’histoire Orale, 2. http://www.oralhistoryforum.ca/index.php/ohf/article/download/644/724.
DeepTheme Audio. Analog Bubbles. ZapSplat. https://www.zapsplat.com/music/analog-bubbles-dreamy-calm-and-carefree-musical-bumper-stinger-intro-outro/
Miles, D. Shades of Orange. ZapSplat. https://www.zapsplat.com/music/shades-of-orange-a-serene-relaxing-warm-ambient-piece-with-slow-mellow-chords-perfect-for-relaxation-meditation-etc/
Ngubane, N.P. and De Gama, B.Z. (2024). The influence of culture on the cause, diagnosis and treatment of serious mental illness (Ufufunyana): Perspectives of traditional health practitioners in the Harry Gwala District, KwaZulu-Natal, Culture Medicine and Psychiatry, 48(3), pp. 634–654. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11013-024-09863-7.
Perks, B. (2024). Trauma Proof. ITHAKA.
Yehuda, R. (2022). How parents' trauma leaves biological traces in children, SCIAM.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Aurora Brown and Intersectional Psychology acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians
(00:08):
of country throughout South Africa, and their connections to land, water and community.
We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Indigenous
people listening today.
(00:29):
Hello and welcome back to Intersectional Psychology.
(01:00):
Today we are covering the second half of my interview with Neesha Chhiba, in which we discuss
trauma-informed counselling with children.
Enjoy!
(01:29):
Some people might say that a part date has been over for 30 years, and with the advent
(01:50):
of cell phones, the internet and globalization, children across South Africa and around the
world are growing up with a more monolithic culture.
A common set of references and values and interests.
How would you respond to that?
(02:12):
Honestly, this really reminds me of this powerful speech that was delivered by Charlie Chaplin
all the way back in 1940, which is like, what, 80 years ago?
I wonder if we can't play it.
(02:49):
Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that
will give youth a future and old age a security.
By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie, they do not
fulfill that promise, they never will, dictate us free themselves, but they enslave the people.
Now let us fight to fulfill that promise, let us fight to free the world, to do away
(03:13):
with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance, let us fight for
a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness.
Soldiers, in the name of democracy, let us all unite!
So, in this Charlie Chaplin speech, at that time, technology wasn't where it is today.
(03:49):
And yet, if we consider what they were facing at the time, I feel that as human beings, we
are still looking for freedom, we are still looking for what democracy really promised,
which was this ability to be free thinking and to not be persecuted for freedom of speech.
(04:09):
And so, while the formal system of apartheid may be behind us, the world continues to grapple
with issues like greedy leadership, systemic social discrimination on just any aspect of
our stratification, whether that's race, gender, any sort of part of that class, even.
(04:32):
So those imbalanced power structures that manifest in ways that are unique to our time,
it's absolutely insane.
So these challenges really highlight how far we still have to go in terms of upholding
basic human values.
I think, throughout time, we seem to really not quite have a down in terms of how do we
(04:55):
respect everyone and give them equally human dignity and respect that, and as a community,
as a government, on an individual basis, how can we be more respectful to those aspects?
So I strongly believe that every individual is entitled to dignity, respect and equal
opportunity.
(05:15):
And if we can come together, whether we create a culture or as a community, around those
shared values, collective interests in a common respect for humanity and the planet, then
perhaps we can do more to build a sustainable future and to just respect our space.
So I feel that unity doesn't necessarily require uniformity.
(05:35):
It requires empathy, understanding and a willingness to challenge systems that prioritize profits
or control of the people on the planet, which sadly is really reflected in today's climate.
And furthermore, I feel that education plays a vital role in this transformation.
So teaching children and teenagers, and even just young adults, that ability to have that
(05:59):
discernment, to have those critical thinking skills in schools is so essential, so that
young people can develop the ability to question, to analyze and make informed decisions about
what's going on around them, rather than becoming sort of passive recipient for biased
information and propaganda, because as you can see with the way social media has changed
(06:20):
over time, it seems like we're being swayed either way in the face of distraction.
So only by empowering the next generation to think for themselves, can we hope to foster
a society built on truth, justice and compassion is honestly, I feel the best way forward.
(06:40):
You know, Charlie Chaplin's speech was very inspiring, but I think you raised it to a
whole other level by saying, unity doesn't require uniformity.
Is that a quote from somewhere or is it a niche copyright?
Yeah, but I actually had to really look at the research to be honest with you.
(07:05):
A lot of the research had these key terms that were constantly featuring in terms of
women were falling short.
And so I really just put that all together in terms of buzzwords and in terms of thinking
of it that way.
Well, honestly, if I ever create podcast merch, I'm going to ask you to give me that phrase.
I'll quote you and people all over South Africa will be walking around with the name Registered
(07:31):
Counsellor Neesha Chhiba across their tits.
Okay, but now back to that very relevant clip you shared.
You know, it's extremely chilling to hear Chaplin's 85 year old speech at this point
in time.
You know, when his film The Great Dictator, which this clip is from, was released in 1940,
(07:56):
the world was busy resisting the Fascist Nazi Party in Germany and trying to stop its
genocidal anti-Semitic Holocaust project.
But right now it seems that fascism is spreading even further than ever before, with basic human
(08:18):
rights being stripped away from marginalized people in countries like the US, the UK, Russia,
Hungary and throughout Africa.
And the sad thing is many of these countries were part of the Allied forces opposing the
Nazis and not to mention the genocides currently being committed in Palestine, Sudan and Burma,
(08:45):
with barely anyone else in the world willing to lift a finger to stop them.
Establishing children to build a society founded on truth, justice and compassion seems more
and more challenging.
But we've established that culture does matter and unity doesn't require uniformity.
(09:12):
And I think also our differences make us stronger.
You know, having such a rich diversity of cultures in South Africa could really enable
us to become even more of a leader on the global stage, if we can actually start working together.
I suppose this government of national unity is a start.
(09:52):
Working with trauma is complex and challenging.
And there are specific considerations in trauma care when working with children.
(10:15):
How do you translate the principles of trauma informed counselling to child and play counselling?
That is almost a 10 step question or spectrum of looking at things because there are so many things
that go into this mixing part of how did we get here?
(10:36):
And I think everything starts with developmental stages.
And as you and maybe some of the viewers can look into this, that for each period of life,
we have developmental stages.
And at these developmental stages, for example, the earliest one,
that's often something people struggle with later in life is the stage of trust versus mistrust.
(10:58):
Predominantly in the earliest of your life within the first few years,
your caregivers are mainly how you are learning this attachment stuff.
Can I trust you to take care of me?
Will you feed me?
Will you offer me safety and security?
Often if that's not taken care of in that early stage,
it comes out in later stages of life in terms of how we interact with other people.
(11:20):
That being said, though, I feel that we often boomerang to different points back.
We're constantly in the state of needing to resolve various aspects of these developmental stages
until we reach this amazing point of self-actualizing.
And even then, you can bounce up and down between these developmental stages.
(11:41):
But the essential part that I want to get across is creating that safety and stability for children.
So there's a lot of pushback, I believe, at the moment around rules and routine.
But the research has shown that routine and rules when taken into consideration your child's context,
so without going to the extreme, really is meant to create stability.
(12:05):
Knowing, for example, that every day, suppers at 8 o'clock, we're in bed by 8.30,
creates that certainty.
You're less anxious.
Whereas a lot of children in South Africa, they don't know when their next meal is.
And the impact that it has on them is incredible.
So those aspects of safety and having basic human needs cared for and taken care of
(12:28):
is such a big aspect.
I mentioned attachment and relationships earlier.
So knowing that you could trust your caregiver or your parent in those early stages of life
has such big implications for people on their friendships and even romantic relationships
more significantly in terms of how they resolve conflict or how they view conflict
(12:51):
or how they look at being with someone.
And considering that no man is an island, as the famous expression goes,
we need to learn how to be with people and how to be comfortable within ourselves in that same sense.
And then another aspect that makes working with trauma complex and challenging is communication barriers.
(13:17):
Often, as I mentioned, you may not be able to find someone in your area
to see a child with these language barriers.
And you have to find a way to communicate and to offer them assistance.
So often I will work with pictures and be like, how do you feel today?
(13:37):
It's a sad face or a smiley face.
And tell me, what are you feeling?
Let's use pictures to communicate.
So that's a big aspect.
And even with language, some children are quite nonverbal.
So they rely on a lot of nonverbal cues as a self-defense mechanism as well to just prevent.
Because often if they say something in certain communities and in certain households,
(14:00):
they get hit or they face other forms of abuse and neglect.
So working with children in those aspects also requires a certain amount of care.
And then I mentioned this earlier, but really involving caregivers,
helping them understand what the child's needs are and helping them work towards freedom of expression
is a big aspect.
(14:22):
And then avoiding retraumatization is a very, very big one.
So often when we're trying to understand something that the child is facing,
having them explain something so many times to every other person who has asked them is just re...
It's retraumatizing them.
And so we have to find a different way of addressing issues at times.
(14:45):
It's one of the reasons why I like the brainwork recursive therapy,
because it works with children and adults in such a way that we don't actually have to
retraumatize our clients.
We don't have to ask them to sort of go and re-explain things.
We just ask them to work with that memory and with that feeling, which is great.
(15:06):
And then cultural context and sensitivity.
I mentioned earlier that having sometimes a culture or a community not having a language
or our mental health difficulties often means that the expression for those difficulties
is quite suppressed or subdued.
And so understanding and being creative and finding different ways to engage with them
(15:30):
is such an important aspect.
And then a lot of the work that we do as Registered Counsellors is building resilience.
And I think you could go about that in almost 101 ways if you really wanted to.
But it's such a big aspect to managing any mental health condition is to really get
that step forward.
You need to build resilience.
(15:50):
So that's such a big factor.
Hello, it's me, Aurora.
Please excuse me interrupting my own podcast.
(16:15):
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(16:40):
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(17:31):
Thanks and back to Intersectional Psychology.
And then I would say long term monitoring.
(17:57):
So really making sure that you're following up, whether your client is seeing a GP or
is working with a psychiatrist and other mental health practitioners really following up,
checking in every once in a while, are they fine, have they developed, do they need more
assistance in working with your community so that interdisciplinary collaboration is
(18:20):
also quite important.
We've covered such a range of considerations requiring empathy and awareness when working
with children.
Going back to what you were saying about developmental stages, you know, sometimes we have to go
back and solve the problem of a previous phase before we can address what's happening in
(18:44):
the current phase of development and I think that's another way that decolonizing mental
health can evolve the theories that we learned.
You know, healing isn't a straight line and those developmental stages we learned at college
can happen in cycles.
(19:06):
You also mentioned building resilience.
People still don't seem to think about mental health the way that they think about physical
health.
You know, we all have physical health.
We all have mental health.
But what state is that health in?
(19:27):
Just like with physical health where we have to eat healthily and exercise, we also have
to take care of our mental health on an ongoing basis so that we can maintain good mental
health for longer.
Even when you're not in the middle of a crisis, good mental health practices can help to prevent
(19:50):
you being pushed into a crisis the next time something dysregulating happens.
So building that resilience is part of like your mental health muscles and something that
children should be learning from a very young age.
(20:28):
But I guess one of the challenges in working with kids is that they are even more influenced
(20:50):
by the systems that they move in and the other people in their lives than adults are.
So it's super important to involve the caregivers in the work that we do with the kids so that
they can also support a child's healing at home between sessions.
(21:12):
How would you advise parents, grandparents and other caregivers to support the mental
health of their children and help them to heal from trauma?
I would recommend a few things and I feel that probably a lot of you are already doing
this already so if there's any just builds on that then that's amazing.
(21:35):
So providing that safe, stable environment and routine as far as humanly possible and
having conversations with your child about safety and what that means in the environment
is so important for them to understand and to navigate their space better and just also
actively listening and being emotionally available when your child says something, don't emotionally
(22:00):
check out and go oh they're blaming me for XYZ.
So also looking at it from a non-judgmental space and just really allowing them to vent
and to share their views and if they ask you for how to manage this then offer but try
not to insert yourself too much into the context so a great way to do this is by using open
(22:21):
ended questions instead of closing statements to their responses.
So validating their feelings and not dismissing them.
So for example not going oh but you know XYZ's child isn't like this or they don't do this
so what's going on here.
So really understanding that everyone is unique, everyone is on their own journey and that
(22:45):
your child may need, you know they may need to have their own views and visions for their
future respected and to find out how to do that in a sense of where it's really important
and significant whether you know it's making jokes if that's your language with your child
and that's also important.
And then just looking out for any significant changes in behavior is a really big aspect
(23:10):
for example, especially with young children things like biting, bed wetting, those sort
of aspects are really important to look into understanding what is going on because as
I mentioned earlier there's such a big relationship between I mean even as you mentioned you
know the mind and the body and that they're always connected so the one will always have
(23:34):
an interplay on the other.
And then this one may be a bit tricky especially when it comes to use of language around children
but being a role model for healthy coping skills.
So that is such a big aspect so instead of you know flicking or swearing when you face
a difficult situation changing your language to go well what can I do to really improve
(23:58):
the situation and to sort of soften that you know that initial tumble down on the hamster
wheel that we all tend to fall on.
So being that role model for healthy coping skills and then seeking professional help
if you need it letting your child know that it's okay to see someone for help and that
if this is what they need then we need to go to the right people for the right things
(24:18):
if we go to the doctor because you know we're sick we go to a surgeon because we've broken
our leg or something significant then we need to know who to go to and how to get help.
And then also empowering them and avoiding that re-traumatization as I mentioned earlier
and really that that requires sort of something that I mentioned earlier which is the act
(24:42):
of listening and being emotionally available.
And then the big one which I'm going to get a lot of us and oh no about is take care of
yourself and I know many adults who are listening to this are going we always neglect that
self-care self-care such a buzzword what is that but really taking care of yourself making
(25:02):
sure that you're eating enough you're getting enough sleep and that you're actually able
to be there for yourself your family and for your work in a healthy and productive way
is so essential.
Yeah I feel a little called out by that last one because it also comes down to trying to
(25:22):
be a role model with healthy coping skills you know I have a three-year-old niece and
the other day I was feeling down and I didn't have the bandwidth to cope with her energy
so she came to me and she wanted to play but she noticed that I wasn't being as responsive
(25:47):
as I usually am so she said to me why do you look sad and in the back of my mind I was
thinking like really should you're three years old and you're recognizing this and calling
it out but I responded in the typical social way saying no no I'm fine I'll come and play
(26:12):
with you a bit later it's all good and afterwards I did go and play with her but I wasn't fully
engaged because I was sad and I suddenly thought about how it might feel for her if I'm playing
(26:32):
with her but with a vibe of not really wanting to be there right then your kids are so perceptive
and intuitive and I had to stop myself and I said to her you know you were right I am
sad but it's not because of you it's because of work and it enabled us to talk about it
(26:58):
and have that teaching moment of you know talking about our feelings and holding difficult
feelings so taking care of yourself is a part of taking care of the young people in your life
you know there's that old cliche of putting your own oxygen mask on first but it's a cliche for a
(27:21):
reason we can't be the caregivers we want to be if we are not taking care of ourselves or if we
are teaching unhealthy emotional regulation and ineffective coping strategies now you also mentioned
the importance of having a stable environment that provides routine as well as the current pushback
(27:46):
to routine I agree with you I can see how important it is for my niece to have a routine that sense
of safety and security that it gives her and how when her routine is disrupted she actually tries to
(28:07):
enforce it and get us to behave in the ways that we usually behave and do things in the same order
in which we usually do them and yet as you say some people are advocating a move away from these
rigid routines to not having any routine at all and I think the reality is somewhere in the middle
(28:34):
you know having a routine is important but not every child needs to have the same routine as you've
said every child is different so it's appropriate for each child to have their own routine what works
for one child might not work for the next but that doesn't mean that one child needs structure and
(29:00):
the other one doesn't it just means that each child needs different forms of structure and boundaries
and safety and security
(29:38):
what are some of the trauma-informed approaches to self-care that you recommend for listeners to
manage their own mental health so that they can put on their own oxygen masks first
absolutely so to preface everything that I'm saying for the segment is that mental health and
(30:00):
practicing good mental health habits is not something that you'll find in one or two sessions
or a few sessions it's got to be something that you're practicing constantly whether you're going
for therapy or counselling or just you're on a self-help journey so being gentle on yourself
and finding out what your safe space is as an adult a lot of the times adults are going back to
(30:23):
habits and spaces that may have served them while as children but as adults no longer serve them
anymore so understanding as an adult what is your safe space and who are your safe people
and surrounding yourself with the support of network to really insulate you from life's hardships
so if you think of yourself as sort of a wire insulated by a cable it's that you know sometimes
(30:46):
you're going through something sometimes your environment is going through something and you
need to have your people to really just insulate you so finding that good support system and
maybe even exploring that if you haven't found that yet and sometimes you have to go through
also a process of decluttering if you feel like that's what you need at this point in your life
(31:07):
so finding that tool or technique that works for you to manage stress
doesn't necessarily have it have to be a traditional approach you could be creative about it
whether that's having you know 10 minutes of silence in the morning before you go to work
or that cup of coffee before you get out of the car you know finding that thing that really helps
you manage your stress and then boundaries and practicing non-judgmentalism which is also a
(31:31):
really big aspect I would say for listeners to work through because a lot of the time with
boundaries it's so hard to really keep them up the minute we put one up you immediately get pushback
people around you're like why do I have to do this why do I have to conform to that why must I do
this all of a sudden and accepting that it's okay for them to push back but your role is to reinforce
(31:56):
your own boundaries not to explain away or you know to try and validate sometimes that little
inner voice in your head that makes you feel guilt about putting up that boundary so that's a big
part of it and that all stems from having a really good sense of non-judgmentalism and then
seek professional help when you're ready for it or when you need it and really know that the
(32:19):
professionals out there are really here for you and are ready to offer you that safe and non-judgmental
space they really are there to offer you that unconditional positive regard and authenticity
and they want to help you on your authentic journey um it's a big aspect
yes I think we as adults also need good role models and sometimes having someone in your life set
(32:49):
a boundary can remind you that it's also a good and healthy for you to set boundaries like this is
a note to yourself because I do have a habit of over committing where all works in progress
(33:29):
now Neesha is there anything you came to say that you didn't get to say I think if there's
any one thing you have to take from everything that I've said so far it would be this our boundaries
and values can act as a compass in tangles of life if you can define them
(33:51):
I love that what a beautiful thank you I love that and where can listeners go to find out more
about you and your work? I have an instagram page called Neesha Chhiba RC counselling but also encourage
listeners to reach out um at 0823269615 or to Neeshachhiborc@gmail.com perhaps you can
(34:19):
read that as a as a note in one of the sections Neesha thank you so much for being here for your
time and your energy I appreciate you and I appreciate all you listeners as well take care
thank you for listening to Intersectional Psychology please follow or subscribe to the
(34:44):
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this episode of Intersectional Psychology was researched written recorded and edited by me
(35:09):
Aurora Brown for a transcript of this episode please see the link in the show notes on your
podcast app or go to intersectionalpsychology.com you can also check the website or the show notes
for a full list of references for this episode a video of this episode with closed captions
(35:33):
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(35:57):
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(36:17):
Aurora Brown and Intersectional Psychology are committed to the site black women praxis
all episodes of Intersectional Psychology are for educational purposes only and are not intended
to be a substitute for professional mental health advice diagnosis or treatment. I, Aurora Brown,
(36:42):
am not able to answer specific questions about individual situations always seek the advice
of your health provider with any questions you may have regarding a mental health condition
never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you
(37:03):
have heard or seen on this podcast if you think you need immediate assistance please
call your local emergency number or any mental health crisis hotline. Everyone deserves good
mental health
Aurora Brown and Intersectional Psychology acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians
(00:08):
of country throughout South Africa, and their connections to land, water and community.
We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Indigenous
people listening today.
(00:29):
Hello and welcome back to Intersectional Psychology.
(01:00):
Today we are covering the second half of my interview with Neesha Chhiba, in which we discuss
trauma-informed counselling with children.
Enjoy!
(01:29):
Some people might say that a part date has been over for 30 years, and with the advent
(01:50):
of cell phones, the internet and globalization, children across South Africa and around the
world are growing up with a more monolithic culture.
A common set of references and values and interests.
How would you respond to that?
(02:12):
Honestly, this really reminds me of this powerful speech that was delivered by Charlie Chaplin
all the way back in 1940, which is like, what, 80 years ago?
I wonder if we can't play it.
(02:49):
Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that
will give youth a future and old age a security.
By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie, they do not
fulfill that promise, they never will, dictate us free themselves, but they enslave the people.
Now let us fight to fulfill that promise, let us fight to free the world, to do away
(03:13):
with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance, let us fight for
a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness.
Soldiers, in the name of democracy, let us all unite!
So, in this Charlie Chaplin speech, at that time, technology wasn't where it is today.
(03:49):
And yet, if we consider what they were facing at the time, I feel that as human beings, we
are still looking for freedom, we are still looking for what democracy really promised,
which was this ability to be free thinking and to not be persecuted for freedom of speech.
(04:09):
And so, while the formal system of apartheid may be behind us, the world continues to grapple
with issues like greedy leadership, systemic social discrimination on just any aspect of
our stratification, whether that's race, gender, any sort of part of that class, even.
(04:32):
So those imbalanced power structures that manifest in ways that are unique to our time,
it's absolutely insane.
So these challenges really highlight how far we still have to go in terms of upholding
basic human values.
I think, throughout time, we seem to really not quite have a down in terms of how do we
(04:55):
respect everyone and give them equally human dignity and respect that, and as a community,
as a government, on an individual basis, how can we be more respectful to those aspects?
So I strongly believe that every individual is entitled to dignity, respect and equal
opportunity.
(05:15):
And if we can come together, whether we create a culture or as a community, around those
shared values, collective interests in a common respect for humanity and the planet, then
perhaps we can do more to build a sustainable future and to just respect our space.
So I feel that unity doesn't necessarily require uniformity.
(05:35):
It requires empathy, understanding and a willingness to challenge systems that prioritize profits
or control of the people on the planet, which sadly is really reflected in today's climate.
And furthermore, I feel that education plays a vital role in this transformation.
So teaching children and teenagers, and even just young adults, that ability to have that
(05:59):
discernment, to have those critical thinking skills in schools is so essential, so that
young people can develop the ability to question, to analyze and make informed decisions about
what's going on around them, rather than becoming sort of passive recipient for biased
information and propaganda, because as you can see with the way social media has changed
(06:20):
over time, it seems like we're being swayed either way in the face of distraction.
So only by empowering the next generation to think for themselves, can we hope to foster
a society built on truth, justice and compassion is honestly, I feel the best way forward.
(06:40):
You know, Charlie Chaplin's speech was very inspiring, but I think you raised it to a
whole other level by saying, unity doesn't require uniformity.
Is that a quote from somewhere or is it a niche copyright?
Yeah, but I actually had to really look at the research to be honest with you.
(07:05):
A lot of the research had these key terms that were constantly featuring in terms of
women were falling short.
And so I really just put that all together in terms of buzzwords and in terms of thinking
of it that way.
Well, honestly, if I ever create podcast merch, I'm going to ask you to give me that phrase.
I'll quote you and people all over South Africa will be walking around with the name Registered
(07:31):
Counsellor Neesha Chhiba across their tits.
Okay, but now back to that very relevant clip you shared.
You know, it's extremely chilling to hear Chaplin's 85 year old speech at this point
in time.
You know, when his film The Great Dictator, which this clip is from, was released in 1940,
(07:56):
the world was busy resisting the Fascist Nazi Party in Germany and trying to stop its
genocidal anti-Semitic Holocaust project.
But right now it seems that fascism is spreading even further than ever before, with basic human
(08:18):
rights being stripped away from marginalized people in countries like the US, the UK, Russia,
Hungary and throughout Africa.
And the sad thing is many of these countries were part of the Allied forces opposing the
Nazis and not to mention the genocides currently being committed in Palestine, Sudan and Burma,
(08:45):
with barely anyone else in the world willing to lift a finger to stop them.
Establishing children to build a society founded on truth, justice and compassion seems more
and more challenging.
But we've established that culture does matter and unity doesn't require uniformity.
(09:12):
And I think also our differences make us stronger.
You know, having such a rich diversity of cultures in South Africa could really enable
us to become even more of a leader on the global stage, if we can actually start working together.
I suppose this government of national unity is a start.
(09:52):
Working with trauma is complex and challenging.
And there are specific considerations in trauma care when working with children.
(10:15):
How do you translate the principles of trauma informed counselling to child and play counselling?
That is almost a 10 step question or spectrum of looking at things because there are so many things
that go into this mixing part of how did we get here?
(10:36):
And I think everything starts with developmental stages.
And as you and maybe some of the viewers can look into this, that for each period of life,
we have developmental stages.
And at these developmental stages, for example, the earliest one,
that's often something people struggle with later in life is the stage of trust versus mistrust.
(10:58):
Predominantly in the earliest of your life within the first few years,
your caregivers are mainly how you are learning this attachment stuff.
Can I trust you to take care of me?
Will you feed me?
Will you offer me safety and security?
Often if that's not taken care of in that early stage,
it comes out in later stages of life in terms of how we interact with other people.
(11:20):
That being said, though, I feel that we often boomerang to different points back.
We're constantly in the state of needing to resolve various aspects of these developmental stages
until we reach this amazing point of self-actualizing.
And even then, you can bounce up and down between these developmental stages.
(11:41):
But the essential part that I want to get across is creating that safety and stability for children.
So there's a lot of pushback, I believe, at the moment around rules and routine.
But the research has shown that routine and rules when taken into consideration your child's context,
so without going to the extreme, really is meant to create stability.
(12:05):
Knowing, for example, that every day, suppers at 8 o'clock, we're in bed by 8.30,
creates that certainty.
You're less anxious.
Whereas a lot of children in South Africa, they don't know when their next meal is.
And the impact that it has on them is incredible.
So those aspects of safety and having basic human needs cared for and taken care of
(12:28):
is such a big aspect.
I mentioned attachment and relationships earlier.
So knowing that you could trust your caregiver or your parent in those early stages of life
has such big implications for people on their friendships and even romantic relationships
more significantly in terms of how they resolve conflict or how they view conflict
(12:51):
or how they look at being with someone.
And considering that no man is an island, as the famous expression goes,
we need to learn how to be with people and how to be comfortable within ourselves in that same sense.
And then another aspect that makes working with trauma complex and challenging is communication barriers.
(13:17):
Often, as I mentioned, you may not be able to find someone in your area
to see a child with these language barriers.
And you have to find a way to communicate and to offer them assistance.
So often I will work with pictures and be like, how do you feel today?
(13:37):
It's a sad face or a smiley face.
And tell me, what are you feeling?
Let's use pictures to communicate.
So that's a big aspect.
And even with language, some children are quite nonverbal.
So they rely on a lot of nonverbal cues as a self-defense mechanism as well to just prevent.
Because often if they say something in certain communities and in certain households,
(14:00):
they get hit or they face other forms of abuse and neglect.
So working with children in those aspects also requires a certain amount of care.
And then I mentioned this earlier, but really involving caregivers,
helping them understand what the child's needs are and helping them work towards freedom of expression
is a big aspect.
(14:22):
And then avoiding retraumatization is a very, very big one.
So often when we're trying to understand something that the child is facing,
having them explain something so many times to every other person who has asked them is just re...
It's retraumatizing them.
And so we have to find a different way of addressing issues at times.
(14:45):
It's one of the reasons why I like the brainwork recursive therapy,
because it works with children and adults in such a way that we don't actually have to
retraumatize our clients.
We don't have to ask them to sort of go and re-explain things.
We just ask them to work with that memory and with that feeling, which is great.
(15:06):
And then cultural context and sensitivity.
I mentioned earlier that having sometimes a culture or a community not having a language
or our mental health difficulties often means that the expression for those difficulties
is quite suppressed or subdued.
And so understanding and being creative and finding different ways to engage with them
(15:30):
is such an important aspect.
And then a lot of the work that we do as Registered Counsellors is building resilience.
And I think you could go about that in almost 101 ways if you really wanted to.
But it's such a big aspect to managing any mental health condition is to really get
that step forward.
You need to build resilience.
(15:50):
So that's such a big factor.
Hello, it's me, Aurora.
Please excuse me interrupting my own podcast.
(16:15):
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(16:40):
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(17:08):
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(17:31):
Thanks and back to Intersectional Psychology.
And then I would say long term monitoring.
(17:57):
So really making sure that you're following up, whether your client is seeing a GP or
is working with a psychiatrist and other mental health practitioners really following up,
checking in every once in a while, are they fine, have they developed, do they need more
assistance in working with your community so that interdisciplinary collaboration is
(18:20):
also quite important.
We've covered such a range of considerations requiring empathy and awareness when working
with children.
Going back to what you were saying about developmental stages, you know, sometimes we have to go
back and solve the problem of a previous phase before we can address what's happening in
(18:44):
the current phase of development and I think that's another way that decolonizing mental
health can evolve the theories that we learned.
You know, healing isn't a straight line and those developmental stages we learned at college
can happen in cycles.
(19:06):
You also mentioned building resilience.
People still don't seem to think about mental health the way that they think about physical
health.
You know, we all have physical health.
We all have mental health.
But what state is that health in?
(19:27):
Just like with physical health where we have to eat healthily and exercise, we also have
to take care of our mental health on an ongoing basis so that we can maintain good mental
health for longer.
Even when you're not in the middle of a crisis, good mental health practices can help to prevent
(19:50):
you being pushed into a crisis the next time something dysregulating happens.
So building that resilience is part of like your mental health muscles and something that
children should be learning from a very young age.
(20:28):
But I guess one of the challenges in working with kids is that they are even more influenced
(20:50):
by the systems that they move in and the other people in their lives than adults are.
So it's super important to involve the caregivers in the work that we do with the kids so that
they can also support a child's healing at home between sessions.
(21:12):
How would you advise parents, grandparents and other caregivers to support the mental
health of their children and help them to heal from trauma?
I would recommend a few things and I feel that probably a lot of you are already doing
this already so if there's any just builds on that then that's amazing.
(21:35):
So providing that safe, stable environment and routine as far as humanly possible and
having conversations with your child about safety and what that means in the environment
is so important for them to understand and to navigate their space better and just also
actively listening and being emotionally available when your child says something, don't emotionally
(22:00):
check out and go oh they're blaming me for XYZ.
So also looking at it from a non-judgmental space and just really allowing them to vent
and to share their views and if they ask you for how to manage this then offer but try
not to insert yourself too much into the context so a great way to do this is by using open
(22:21):
ended questions instead of closing statements to their responses.
So validating their feelings and not dismissing them.
So for example not going oh but you know XYZ's child isn't like this or they don't do this
so what's going on here.
So really understanding that everyone is unique, everyone is on their own journey and that
(22:45):
your child may need, you know they may need to have their own views and visions for their
future respected and to find out how to do that in a sense of where it's really important
and significant whether you know it's making jokes if that's your language with your child
and that's also important.
And then just looking out for any significant changes in behavior is a really big aspect
(23:10):
for example, especially with young children things like biting, bed wetting, those sort
of aspects are really important to look into understanding what is going on because as
I mentioned earlier there's such a big relationship between I mean even as you mentioned you
know the mind and the body and that they're always connected so the one will always have
(23:34):
an interplay on the other.
And then this one may be a bit tricky especially when it comes to use of language around children
but being a role model for healthy coping skills.
So that is such a big aspect so instead of you know flicking or swearing when you face
a difficult situation changing your language to go well what can I do to really improve
(23:58):
the situation and to sort of soften that you know that initial tumble down on the hamster
wheel that we all tend to fall on.
So being that role model for healthy coping skills and then seeking professional help
if you need it letting your child know that it's okay to see someone for help and that
if this is what they need then we need to go to the right people for the right things
(24:18):
if we go to the doctor because you know we're sick we go to a surgeon because we've broken
our leg or something significant then we need to know who to go to and how to get help.
And then also empowering them and avoiding that re-traumatization as I mentioned earlier
and really that that requires sort of something that I mentioned earlier which is the act
(24:42):
of listening and being emotionally available.
And then the big one which I'm going to get a lot of us and oh no about is take care of
yourself and I know many adults who are listening to this are going we always neglect that
self-care self-care such a buzzword what is that but really taking care of yourself making
(25:02):
sure that you're eating enough you're getting enough sleep and that you're actually able
to be there for yourself your family and for your work in a healthy and productive way
is so essential.
Yeah I feel a little called out by that last one because it also comes down to trying to
(25:22):
be a role model with healthy coping skills you know I have a three-year-old niece and
the other day I was feeling down and I didn't have the bandwidth to cope with her energy
so she came to me and she wanted to play but she noticed that I wasn't being as responsive
(25:47):
as I usually am so she said to me why do you look sad and in the back of my mind I was
thinking like really should you're three years old and you're recognizing this and calling
it out but I responded in the typical social way saying no no I'm fine I'll come and play
(26:12):
with you a bit later it's all good and afterwards I did go and play with her but I wasn't fully
engaged because I was sad and I suddenly thought about how it might feel for her if I'm playing
(26:32):
with her but with a vibe of not really wanting to be there right then your kids are so perceptive
and intuitive and I had to stop myself and I said to her you know you were right I am
sad but it's not because of you it's because of work and it enabled us to talk about it
(26:58):
and have that teaching moment of you know talking about our feelings and holding difficult
feelings so taking care of yourself is a part of taking care of the young people in your life
you know there's that old cliche of putting your own oxygen mask on first but it's a cliche for a
(27:21):
reason we can't be the caregivers we want to be if we are not taking care of ourselves or if we
are teaching unhealthy emotional regulation and ineffective coping strategies now you also mentioned
the importance of having a stable environment that provides routine as well as the current pushback
(27:46):
to routine I agree with you I can see how important it is for my niece to have a routine that sense
of safety and security that it gives her and how when her routine is disrupted she actually tries to
(28:07):
enforce it and get us to behave in the ways that we usually behave and do things in the same order
in which we usually do them and yet as you say some people are advocating a move away from these
rigid routines to not having any routine at all and I think the reality is somewhere in the middle
(28:34):
you know having a routine is important but not every child needs to have the same routine as you've
said every child is different so it's appropriate for each child to have their own routine what works
for one child might not work for the next but that doesn't mean that one child needs structure and
(29:00):
the other one doesn't it just means that each child needs different forms of structure and boundaries
and safety and security
(29:38):
what are some of the trauma-informed approaches to self-care that you recommend for listeners to
manage their own mental health so that they can put on their own oxygen masks first
absolutely so to preface everything that I'm saying for the segment is that mental health and
(30:00):
practicing good mental health habits is not something that you'll find in one or two sessions
or a few sessions it's got to be something that you're practicing constantly whether you're going
for therapy or counselling or just you're on a self-help journey so being gentle on yourself
and finding out what your safe space is as an adult a lot of the times adults are going back to
(30:23):
habits and spaces that may have served them while as children but as adults no longer serve them
anymore so understanding as an adult what is your safe space and who are your safe people
and surrounding yourself with the support of network to really insulate you from life's hardships
so if you think of yourself as sort of a wire insulated by a cable it's that you know sometimes
(30:46):
you're going through something sometimes your environment is going through something and you
need to have your people to really just insulate you so finding that good support system and
maybe even exploring that if you haven't found that yet and sometimes you have to go through
also a process of decluttering if you feel like that's what you need at this point in your life
(31:07):
so finding that tool or technique that works for you to manage stress
doesn't necessarily have it have to be a traditional approach you could be creative about it
whether that's having you know 10 minutes of silence in the morning before you go to work
or that cup of coffee before you get out of the car you know finding that thing that really helps
you manage your stress and then boundaries and practicing non-judgmentalism which is also a
(31:31):
really big aspect I would say for listeners to work through because a lot of the time with
boundaries it's so hard to really keep them up the minute we put one up you immediately get pushback
people around you're like why do I have to do this why do I have to conform to that why must I do
this all of a sudden and accepting that it's okay for them to push back but your role is to reinforce
(31:56):
your own boundaries not to explain away or you know to try and validate sometimes that little
inner voice in your head that makes you feel guilt about putting up that boundary so that's a big
part of it and that all stems from having a really good sense of non-judgmentalism and then
seek professional help when you're ready for it or when you need it and really know that the
(32:19):
professionals out there are really here for you and are ready to offer you that safe and non-judgmental
space they really are there to offer you that unconditional positive regard and authenticity
and they want to help you on your authentic journey um it's a big aspect
yes I think we as adults also need good role models and sometimes having someone in your life set
(32:49):
a boundary can remind you that it's also a good and healthy for you to set boundaries like this is
a note to yourself because I do have a habit of over committing where all works in progress
(33:29):
now Neesha is there anything you came to say that you didn't get to say I think if there's
any one thing you have to take from everything that I've said so far it would be this our boundaries
and values can act as a compass in tangles of life if you can define them
(33:51):
I love that what a beautiful thank you I love that and where can listeners go to find out more
about you and your work? I have an instagram page called Neesha Chhiba RC counselling but also encourage
listeners to reach out um at 0823269615 or to Neeshachhiborc@gmail.com perhaps you can
(34:19):
read that as a as a note in one of the sections Neesha thank you so much for being here for your
time and your energy I appreciate you and I appreciate all you listeners as well take care
thank you for listening to Intersectional Psychology please follow or subscribe to the
(34:44):
podcast to get every episode if you enjoyed this episode please rate and review intersectional
psychology in your preferred app it really helps other people find the podcast
this episode of Intersectional Psychology was researched written recorded and edited by me
(35:09):
Aurora Brown for a transcript of this episode please see the link in the show notes on your
podcast app or go to intersectionalpsychology.com you can also check the website or the show notes
for a full list of references for this episode a video of this episode with closed captions
(35:33):
is available on youtube.com forward slash at Intersectional Psychology
to support this podcast and get access to bonus content including additional episodes and interviews
as well as more guided mindfulness sessions please go to patreon.com forward slash intersectional
(35:57):
psychology you can also chat with me on blue sky at intersect psych.bsky.social and instagram
facebook or tiktok at Intersectional Psychology but mostly blue sky
(36:17):
Aurora Brown and Intersectional Psychology are committed to the site black women praxis
all episodes of Intersectional Psychology are for educational purposes only and are not intended
to be a substitute for professional mental health advice diagnosis or treatment. I, Aurora Brown,
(36:42):
am not able to answer specific questions about individual situations always seek the advice
of your health provider with any questions you may have regarding a mental health condition
never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you
(37:03):
have heard or seen on this podcast if you think you need immediate assistance please
call your local emergency number or any mental health crisis hotline. Everyone deserves good
mental health
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