May 28, 2024 • 49 mins
In Episode 7 of intheOffice Cast, Jon is a special guest on The Homeworker podcast with its founder, Louise.
Between them, they talk about the definition, challenges and benefits of hybrid working, discussing how hybrid working can improve productivity, creativity and well-being. In addition, how it poses some difficulties in terms of communication, coordination and trust - for individuals and for professionals like office managers and HR teams.
This podcast also examines the role and design of the office in a hybrid world, suggesting that the office should be flexible, attractive and supportive of different types of work and people.
The Homeworker
The first magazine dedicated to helping you thrive when you work from home.
The Homeworker was founded to inspire you to make positive changes that will help you achieve a happier, healthier, more fulfilling work life.
Louise, its founder, has created a print magazine and a digital platform catering to the modern homeworker: freelancers, business owners, remote and hybrid workers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome to this session on hybrid working and
thank you for joining us live and if
you are going to be watching the replay
I hope you find this an enjoyable conversation.
I'm joined today by John Jonathan Kent who
is one of the founders of In The
Office and I will get John to briefly
introduce himself as well shortly but just ahead
(00:33):
of the session just so you know obviously
the session is being recorded if you can
keep yourself on mute just while we have
a chat and then at the end if
there are any questions at all then do
feel free we can take any questions and
I will keep an eye on the chat
box as well so if anything pops up
while you're watching and you want to mention
something then feel free to use that chat
(00:55):
box as well.
I think that's about it as a very
brief introduction to me if you've not come
across me before I'm Louise and I'm the
founder of The Home Worker which is a
digital platform and a print magazine as well
for people who work remotely or work from
home or sometimes in a hybrid fashion as
(01:15):
well.
So without further ado we'll get going and
I'd like John to just say a quick
hello do you want to introduce yourself just
explain a bit about who you are and
what you do at In The Office.
Yeah sure I was quite nervous there I
thought I haven't spoken in a while I
was wondering if I was going to squeak
(01:36):
when I first started but yeah so I'm
John Kent and I'm the founder of a
software platform called In The Office which is
designed to help teams manage this new world
of hybrid working so it was built during
the first lockdown specifically designed to try to
help people coordinate when they go into the
(01:57):
office when everything opened back up so yeah
that's us so we've been doing a lot
of work obviously on hybrid working and looking
at how that's happening across the world and
the challenges that it's presenting.
Yeah I mean it's been quite the time
hasn't it since the lockdown when you obviously
(02:18):
first started the company so much has changed
and it'll be really interesting therefore to get
your take on kind of where things are
going what's happening and and some of the
challenges that you mentioned there as well.
I thought to start off with and I
know this might seem an obvious question but
what is hybrid and the reason I ask
(02:39):
is I think it's quite good to start
with that definition of hybrid working because I
think that sometimes you know people do have
slightly different view on what exactly it is
so even if it's just a very short
explanation what I think it's good to start
with that of you know what do you
see as as hybrid working what do you
mean by that?
(03:00):
I mean that's a podcast in itself if
we start looking at the definitions because well
you know the one thing that has come
out is obviously people are defining it as
different things and you end up with things
like structured hybrid and employee-led hybrid team
-led hybrid flexible hybrid I mean if you
(03:20):
actually just look at the sort of wraparound
of everything even if you look at sort
of a dictionary definition it's just composed of
different things so for me I do like
to just go if you're if whatever you're
doing if you're checking your phone on on
the train or something like that or out
for a walk and taking a meeting or
something like that you are effectively working in
(03:42):
a hybrid where you're not just working in
from one workspace so yeah that's my definition
is quite loose I guess but that's just
it sort of encompasses everything.
Yeah because I do think a lot of
people think hybrid is very much related to
place so it's an exact sort of mix
of office and perhaps working from home which
(04:04):
would be the obvious sort of place that
you might work from if you're not in
the office but I guess it could also
mean working from from anywhere and in your
definition doing a mixture of things as well
so and you know we talk about in
the office we talk about working from home
and I think the office itself you talk
about how your definition of hybrid being quite
(04:26):
loose I think your definition of the office
has become a lot looser recently and you
know I think it would be also interesting
to hear what you think about what the
office looks like because like growing up for
instance for me the office you know I
grew up in it was a fairly traditional
household and it was the place my dad
went out to work and it was sort
(04:47):
of this open plan it was quite an
ugly building with a lot of desks and
maybe a few sort of private cubicle spaces
for the execs and that was the office
and it was sort of just you know
perched on the edge of the city centre.
I just think what we think of as
the office now has also changed quite a
(05:08):
lot.
What does the office look like if you're
talking about the office these days?
So first of all the way that I
see the office or really if you prefer
to call it a workspace or you know
your place of work because the office tends
to be the company mandated location that you've
(05:29):
got to work from and if you actually
look back at why the office exists I
did a bit of research for this for
a talk and it's so people argue about
where it came from originally but it was
roughly the sort of 1700s that a single
building existed for people to go to work
(05:49):
and that was generally because of you know
security of information you know the tools that
we were using you know if you remember
I was gonna say back in the day
but it wasn't even that long ago you
know the huge photocopying machines and printers and
stuff like that you know they were far
too expensive for everyone to have.
Technology just wasn't there so you had to
(06:11):
have a single location to work and that's
what I feel coming out of this lots
of people are getting that they're sort of
putting it up on a pedestal that that's
the only place to work you know the
people that are saying we've got to be
back in the office that's what they're thinking
whereas technology has moved on and your place
of work now because of that can be
(06:31):
anywhere so when you start to think about
that the office isn't a single location isn't
that old that ugly building that you know
with loads of desks and the exec offices
it's actually a tool to help us be
productive you know that's what your workspace is
it's designed well it's a tool like any
other it's like your smartphone or your laptop
(06:53):
or a screen or whatever it's just another
tool that you can use to be productive
depending on you know the tasks that you're
doing what your team needs and what's going
on in your own life so for me
the sort of future office is just a
workspace whatever wherever that is and whatever you
(07:14):
need it to be like yeah that's that's
interesting as well because like you say I
think the word office has certain connotations and
actually workspace it's just a lot more fluid
and flexible and could essentially be anywhere I
guess we're trying to differentiate between the remote
aspect and then that fixed place of work
(07:35):
but you know people have home offices people
go you know and the office I guess
as well you know there's co-working spaces
now there are people going to work from
you know other venues libraries or even hotel
lobbies I know some people use those sorts
of areas so it's really varied now like
(07:57):
kind of what the office is and I
think also the role of the office has
significantly changed and particularly again since the pandemic
because so much can be done from home
and like you were saying like the technology
and everything that we use has shrunk to
a size that's manageable from our from our
homes so it because of that I guess
(08:20):
it almost does beg the question you know
why people do come into the office and
I understand you know there are certain jobs
and they're not even office jobs that they're
jobs that people can't do from home and
there are several examples where you know hospitals
for instance or factories and those sorts of
things but you know if you are coming
(08:43):
into an office wherever that might be to
sit at your desk with your headphones on
to dial into some zoom calls maybe just
do some focused work and the point what
what is the point therefore of going into
the office because that is the sort of
thing that a lot of people can do
quite easily from home without the hassle of
the travel or you know the commuting expense
(09:07):
so I just wonder like what the role
of the office is these days when we
think about it in the sort of more
conventional sense of the place where employees mostly
come and get together to work and I
just wonder if it's almost become more of
a social space now as well yeah I
mean definitely for for a lot of people
(09:29):
I think it's there are obviously multiple reasons
why you go into a an office the
the social side is is the massive one
that we saw coming out of lockdown you
know everyone being cooped up in their house
especially people in different you know we're all
different we all have different scenarios so particularly
(09:51):
younger workforce where they might be in a
single bedroom flat you know working from there
is actually terrible for your mental health as
well as lots of other things so coming
out of that and going to a essential
location where hopefully people are that you can
interact with and learn from is really important
so from that perspective to socialize the social
(10:13):
area is is really good but there's also
a lot of benefit in you know changing
up your your workplace so you know the
coffee shop effect which was obviously the thing
before pre-pandemic when you know some people
said I'm so much more productive when working
from the coffee shop it's like well yes
(10:34):
but if you always work from the coffee
shop that would also your productivity would decline
because you're forming a habit you know you're
not having new experiences the the benefit of
the dopamine hit of being around you know
a completely different environment it starts to wear
off from where we've gone pre-pandemic to
where we are now with so many of
(10:55):
us spending more of our time working from
home it does benefit to go to a
centralized location again there's you know there are
benefits of having a different desk setup you
know the thing that's I'm slightly worried about
for the next sort of 10 years is
(11:15):
the number of people who have been working
from home but actually been working from their
kitchen table on a laptop and are gonna
have you know crumbling backs and things like
that because you don't you don't realize that
it's something that gets looked after when you
go to a centralized place where the company
buys all of the kit um the ergonomic
side of things which are really important things
(11:37):
that I you know hear as well when
I talk to people about you know the
role of the office because obviously a home
worker we talk a lot about working from
home but I've always said you know that's
not me with some agenda of like everyone
should be working from home it's a resource
to support people when they do and if
they do but I think there is a
(11:58):
place and a time for people to get
together whether that needs to be in the
office I think is the thing that's that's
debatable for sure but you like you've mentioned
there's the social aspect there's that that productivity
aspect of just changing the environment I know
you know from personal experience going out maybe
(12:18):
working you know a day a week for
just a couple of hours in a coffee
shop or something I do tend to focus
and get on with stuff because there are
other distractions that happen around at home as
well and also I think it's sort of
the collaboration side of things like if it's
sometimes people just find it helpful to be
in person don't they and obviously there are
(12:40):
some fully remote businesses that collaborate perfectly effectively
remotely but I think there are times where
sometimes people want I just love to get
together and brainstorm some ideas and and again
and the mentoring side of things which you
mentioned like for younger perhaps for younger graduates
or people just entering the workforce where just
(13:02):
having that sort of sense of people around
them and being able to learn even by
osmosis so you know just learning the sort
of the ropes as it were and giving
that sense of being you know yeah part
of something but I do think that's that's
an interesting one which I will come on
to in terms of the the reasons people
(13:24):
go to the office because I think we've
heard a lot particularly in the headlines quite
recently about things like you know these return
to office mandates and I did want to
ask you a bit about that as well
because it feels like I mean some of
the reasons that are given are you know
that it was you know it's better for
productivity it's better for a sense of culture
(13:46):
it's not fair if not everybody can can
work from home you know these sorts of
things all these arguments that keep coming up
so I'm just wondering what you think about
the sort of these I guess in some
ways there's a sort of trying to enforce
people to come back full-time into an
(14:07):
office.
There are so many points that you brought
up there you know the fairness one is
something that I've even done a podcast on
separately where you know we talk about about
that.
What you hear in the headlines is always
going to be very polarizing and is always
just there to to make the people who
are who are being asked to go back
(14:29):
into the office you know feel vindicated that
they should be angry and that sort of
thing.
I do think there are occasions where it
can actually be necessary for certain companies to
to do that depending on their workforce but
in the vast majority of cases it does
just seem to be a let's you know
(14:49):
use a sledgehammer to crack a nut it's
it's trying to trying to solve what's actually
a really complicated multifaceted problem with a single
line and that's where it's sort of it
very quickly unravels as soon as you start
to ask probing questions about that it usually
(15:10):
then comes down to them saying well we've
looked at the data and the data says
this and then you go okay well what
data are you looking at and it usually
ends up being that someone saw something somewhere
which could be taken as you know supporting
the argument both for and against.
For me when people say that their bosses
are doing a return to office mandate you
(15:30):
do think well okay but that's generally not
going to be fair for a lot of
people then quite a lot of the people
in that company are probably going to immediately
have to break it because of their job
role so you know if you say well
everyone has to be in the office five
days a week but you've got a whole
sales team that needs to be out on
the road well okay so instantly you've separated
those those two those two types of workers
(15:53):
so my feeling is it if you feel
like you need to do that to create
a baseline then fine if you do a
full return to the office then you're probably
going to lose a lot of staff because
we've now experienced the freedom and and the
benefits to our own lives of having the
flexibility to to spend more time at home
(16:14):
or to not have to commute into the
office or you know all of those things
which isn't they're not always just a personal
benefit it can be that actually I am
much more productive on a Friday when I
can do some deep thinking and be at
home and work for me personally I found
that before the before the pandemic if I
had a day at home I could do
(16:35):
some really deep thinking whereas if I went
into the office I'd be disturbed every five
seconds so I then couldn't do my job
properly so it's I think as a policy
of let's do it it's you know fine
if that's what you want to do expect
that people will revolt against it and and
(16:55):
you'll probably lose some staff depending on your
business because also all of this does depend
on the type of business you're running you
know there are some companies where even small
companies where actually a full-time a full
-time return to the office is is fine
because everyone lives you know five minutes from
the central area and actually that's what means
(17:15):
that they can be more productive and and
they're better so it's not always bad but
in the majority of cases yeah I uh
I would avoid it I mean when when
I first started hearing people doing it and
I'm sort of backtracking on like we're all
going to be remote and that's how we've
got to be back in the office it
sort of felt like there was this um
(17:37):
from their point of view this loss of
control and so trying to to reassert that
um and and in fact there was a
study I think there was quite a large
study done in the University of Pittsburgh which
did find that it was also not only
a kind of a control issue but also
sort of a way of blaming employees for
(17:59):
poor performance so you know that because you're
working from home you're not performing whereas actually
as you highlighted there are so many reasons
and factors that we need to consider you
can't just look at where working um I
thought it was quite interesting that there were
when people sort of blame or people look
for reasons such as productivity or profits and
(18:22):
that sort of thing that I saw some
stats um posted by Nick Bloom who's a
professor at Stanford and he does a lot
of research around working from home and he
actually posted some stats showing this correlation in
the US with companies posting higher profits with
(18:42):
the increase in working from home and I
don't think he specifically said it was causation
but the correlation is very clear um and
I think like you say trying to enforce
something is never going to be popular so
there'd be I imagine quite a lot of
staff attrition as well you know and if
it feels like you're not trusted and I
(19:04):
think trust is such a big thing when
we're talking about remote working when we're talking
about hybrid working um the trust issue the
trust factor is is just so important on
both on both sides you know employers need
to be able to trust that they're getting
on with their work and they're doing that
um equally employees want to trust that you
(19:24):
know their needs are being looked after and
you know that it's it's yeah it's this
it's this two-way thing but I think
it's a word that that crops up quite
a lot in these situations but yeah interesting
with the return to office because I just
think it kind of comes on to this
other question as well about how you've seen
things change over the last um few years
(19:48):
because it does feel like there's been a
bit of to and fro perhaps with you
know we're all going remote now we're all
coming back or now you can do two
days or now oh no we've decided on
three days it feels like people aren't quite
sure and that it's still very much a
work in progress what have you seen through
you know your clients or your experiences what
(20:08):
what changes have have happened and what sort
of perhaps what best practices there are when
it comes to hybrid yeah I mean the
the the challenges as you say are and
and the the flip-flopping has been really
quite quite interesting to watch from from afar
um and I think it also comes back
(20:29):
to that sort of looking at it as
a problem that needs a single fix rather
than all of the different areas that it
will touch um and the saying we'll all
be remote seemed like it'd be easy and
lots of companies did um reduce their office
space um and and save a lot of
money in the in the process which for
(20:50):
some will have saved the businesses because you
know the pandemic was was horrific um and
that now they've realized actually the problems that
come along with with remote work went sorry
not the problems the challenges that are associated
with it um and with uh big teams
and big companies where you've got a layer
of managers who aren't used to managing someone
(21:12):
remotely you know they're used to that sort
of um being able to just look over
a screen and see what someone's doing or
see that they're working or generally see that
they're just sat there you know reading the
news um because of the presenteeism and things
like that playing solitaire was the classic one
wasn't it yeah exactly um and I think
(21:33):
the that that's actually one of the biggest
issues is um firstly we've got um a
huge um population of managers who have no
formal training I think the um uh the
I can't remember the the acronym for it
now but the Chartered Institute of Managers I
think is um said something like 78 percent
(21:55):
of managers have had no formal training and
have just been promoted as part of well
this is the only thing that we can
think we can do so you know we
need to make you more senior but you've
got to now manage people when a lot
of people like I just want to do
my job I don't want to have a
team um yeah so you've got yeah yeah
exactly so you know you've got all of
(22:16):
these people who are who are accidental managers
and then suddenly the way that they thought
they could manage has been completely changed and
they're now having to be a lot more
um you know it's actually it's massively increased
their workload trying to manage remote people is
is harder because you don't know what they're
doing you've got to be more proactive at
(22:37):
communicating with them and I think that's that
effect has sort of gone up the ranks
to the senior level where they've then gone
right in which case we need to all
be back in the office because then we
can revert to what we had um so
let's do a return to office mandate and
of course then you have the it's this
is what's causing all the flip-flopping um
(22:57):
and the biggest challenge is it is just
polarizing the the authority with the workers so
when when we're talking to clients the thing
we usually say is try to not start
with this hard and fast rule because as
soon as you do your you know whatever
happens when you change it you're going to
(23:18):
be seen to be you know exerting your
authority again and well you've just said this
and we we all fought against it and
now you've changed your mind and there's you
know it's it's it's really bad for for
the workforce to be treated like that it
shows a huge lack of trust and just
means that you're not going to get the
best out of people um but the yeah
(23:40):
sorry no I was just I was going
to sort of echo the point slightly and
what you're saying about the management side and
the leadership because it does require a slightly
different approach to leadership and I think the
word proactive that you used is is a
key one really because it it might increase
your workload or it might I feel like
it's it's also it's changed people just the
(24:00):
way people have have to work and have
to operate because you know it might be
harder to if you're used to having that
sort of management by seeing and relying on
presenteers and in the office then you know
it's going to take some adjustments but it
is I think the communication aspect is is
so important and it's always been important but
(24:21):
it becomes even more important in terms of
that sort of reaching out and forming relationships
and being that kind of that open door
policy in terms of you can come and
chat to me whenever but it can be
a bit harder because you sort of need
to model that yourself to let people know
that you know it's okay to just you
know drop me a message or you know
(24:42):
and to do it via a screen might
sometimes feel a little harder or more awkward
it depends it depends on how you like
doing these things it's kind of the balance
between checking in and not micromanaging I think
as well it's one of the difficulties when
you're sort of dealing with with remote workers
um the um the open door policy that
(25:03):
you mentioned there as well is um I
heard someone talking about this on a podcast
and they said you know that that's not
actually a proactive approach it's quite reactive yeah
I was like mind is blown yeah so
well actually there there will be and and
that's where management is actually quite an important
skill that people will need different styles of
(25:23):
management um you know you can't just go
yeah my door's open well no one's coming
to me so therefore there are no problems
if there's a junior who's you know worried
about talking to you you need to be
more proactive and and actually yeah do the
management yeah no I I simply agree it
is it is quite passive to just my
door's open which is why I think yeah
that's sort of this modeling is actually important
(25:46):
as well but I think also highlights how
important it is as a manager to understand
your team and really get to know you
well because you know if you and I
think we saw this when everybody you know
went into lockdown and we were having to
they were having to manage from from home
and do it remotely you know if you
don't know your team if you don't know
(26:06):
that all their strengths if you don't know
all their different personalities if you don't know
how they like to be communicated to or
how they like to work because you've just
relied on the fact that they're there within
sights within reach and you can just sort
of you know throw something out to them
like you know this yeah it's um it
really does create you know a more kind
(26:26):
of how important it is to really understand
um your team and and the individuals within
that team um I think and again I've
talked about this with somebody else who's talking
about how important it is to engage people
when we're working remotely and and understanding them
because everybody has different motivators and you know
(26:47):
and in some cases different agendas you know
and it's so it's really hard to sometimes
get everything in alignment and to make everything
work for everybody and I guess that's always
going to be a sort of a where
compromises have to be made in in all
these situations um the one thing I think
(27:08):
about when as well when it comes to
hybrid and we're talking about some of the
challenges and perhaps some of the best ways
to to implement it is the sort of
intentionality behind it I think that some of
the time you sort of see these hybrid
policies come in so it's like okay we'll
be more flexible and we'll let you work
(27:29):
uh from home two or three days and
then but you must come into the office
on Tuesday and Wednesday I think I'm in
my mind that actually that isn't that flexible
you're still mandating two days that they have
to be in the office um and I
think we need to really ask ourselves why
why are you coming back in it's fine
(27:49):
to have a hybrid policy and I think
in many situations it works well for everybody
because it gives people that that best of
both um but perhaps it needs to be
a bit less arbitrary and more about you
come in when it's necessary when there was
a reason to come in and not just
because it's a Tuesday and therefore you have
to be in the office because if that
day as we've mentioned if on that day
(28:11):
you are literally going to be on calls
most of the day you may as well
be at home so um yeah I wonder
how you see that in terms of you
know deciding when people should come into the
office and when people should be you know
allowed to to stay home yeah oh it's
you're absolutely right that the the the Tuesday
(28:33):
Wednesday Thursday club um you know it's you're
you're giving people a it's sort of almost
talking back to when working from home was
a privilege you know that came with seniority
and it's sort of going right well fine
we'll give it to everyone and as you
said you need to work out what what
people are doing and what the what their
team needs and what their personal lives require
(28:57):
as to whether they should work so if
the team requires people to be in on
a particular day because you're kicking off a
project then you then the office is a
good well the office or a centralized work
hub um it's a good place for you
to all meet up um but it's not
just about the the team you know there
(29:18):
are loads of people that do actually go
into the office because their home lives are
are you know they've got kids running around
and they can't they that's their the place
that they can do their deep work so
it's it's not a i i agree with
you that i don't think it's a a
strict thing i think it's really variable and
(29:39):
it will change depending on you know the
age of the person the jobs that they're
doing um even within their sort of job
remit the tasks that they're doing um even
down to like the time of year um
so i know in in advance of this
you mentioned about um uh what would pull
people back into the office anything well yeah
(29:59):
as summer's coming up um that's generally a
time where you have you know company summer
parties um if you go into london on
on a thursday they'll usually be you know
hordes of people outside of pub having a
drink and you know that's that's incredibly important
for teams to to get together and to
socialize and that is something that happens probably
more in summer so you know are we
(30:21):
actually going to see more office use in
in the winter than in the summer or
the other way around or you know it's
yeah i think it's in the winter i
imagine people might want to go in for
the heating and then in the summer like
you're saying maybe it's there's a sort of
more you know summer's in the air and
everyone feels a bit more sociable um at
(30:43):
the same time you know i love it
on a really warm sunny day i mean
if you're lucky enough at home you know
you've got a garden or whatever then it's
nice to just you know throw the door
open and have the windows open and and
and be able to have your you know
lunch outside in the garden although these sort
of like little perks i suppose of being
able to do it but yeah yeah it's
it is interesting and i guess it does
(31:05):
come to that point that we've sort of
discussed a little bit before around attracting people
to the office because i do think you
know if you are going to say you
must come back even if it's just for
so many days and even if they have
ultimate flexibility over when they come in um
you know there's still kind of again people
(31:28):
want to the office the workplace needs to
be an attractive proposition um so i you
know do you see any kind of thing
that people are looking for people looking for
more from their from that sort of workplace
now then because i think when we are
working from home we can tailor our environment
(31:49):
so you know we can have everything just
as we like you know we're not sharing
desks or chairs which is sometimes the case
in the office um we might have our
you know little personal bits and pieces around
it just that make us feel a bit
more comfortable we've got the convenience of our
own kitchen and and the sort of things
that we just like and we've created this
(32:10):
quite bespoke environment that works for us um
so the office is kind of fighting against
that in some ways yeah yeah um i
mean again i think it comes down to
why why you're using it i mean everything
you're saying is is right from the intentionality
to you know what the what the office
is actually like so if you're going in
(32:31):
and you want to use the office for
that social aspect then it needs to be
set up in a way that you that
encourages that so that you then go actually
yes i will go in because i know
that other people will be in at the
same time for a start otherwise you're by
yourself on a sofa um but um if
you're going in for work then are their
desks set up which will make you more
(32:53):
productive for work so you know a really
key thing about that because i go to
uh weworks quite a bit and one of
the biggest issues i have there is you've
got yes a nice desk and a nice
chair but i don't have an external monitor
so you know if if you're going into
the office to do some actual work then
you need people so the company needs to
(33:14):
set it up they need to understand the
reason why um which again comes back to
the intentionality it's you know look at why
people are using the office is it just
for the social side is it for work
is it a mixture of both in which
case create an environment that supports those activities
um you know having an external monitor or
a place where you can just walk in
(33:35):
put your laptop down you have an external
keyboard and mouse you have your external monitor
means that you will be more productive rather
than going i need to get away from
my house because i've got my office set
up but the kids are on holiday so
i'm on holiday from school so they're running
around but so i can't work here but
if i go into the office i'll just
be on a laptop and then i'll come
back with a you know back pain and
(33:56):
and won't be productive you know these are
the challenges that people are are facing when
looking at um whether or not they should
go into the office or not and i
think for for companies they need to intentionally
look at this and look at the data
from within their own company there's a huge
push for people as i said earlier just
(34:17):
looking at data and going right that's that's
what matters for these companies so we're going
to do the same okay well aren't you
doing exactly the same things as those people
is the makeup of your company exactly the
same you know if one company has a
very young workforce and the other has a
very old workforce they're going to need different
things so try to look at what your
(34:38):
own company needs and then work from there
and the easiest way you know if we
go back to thinking of the office as
a product then it's basically build it like
a you know someone would build a software
product or a hardware product where you start
small try to learn as you're building and
don't make any hard and fast rules that
you then can't break later because that would
(35:00):
influence everything so just get everyone on side
and say this is what we're trying to
do we're trying to make everyone's lives better
so we're going to start with this experiment
we're going to learn from it and then
we're going to keep building and change change
what we do yeah this is like quite
an iterative process really isn't it you're always
going to be you know learning tweaking you
know and i guess that's still the process
(35:21):
that a lot of people are are in
um post pandemic they're still sort of trying
to work out um what what works best
for everyone i mean it's interesting what you're
saying about you know having in the office
what people need you know from the technology
is obviously a key one um and certain
equipment and things but i a little while
(35:43):
ago um hosted this panel on you know
what the sort of trends are for for
the office the sort of the new office
of today post pandemic and yeah i mean
a lot of the things that that people
were talking about were around you know the
office has has to be appealing it has
to have that social element so it almost
(36:05):
has to now be a creation of different
zones for different things and you're going to
you're going to need that space for people
who are in the office perhaps all day
but do want an hour where they can
do some just focused dedicated work they want
to just go home for that um but
also the the design of the office itself
(36:25):
in is becoming so important the sort of
the biophilic design where you're incorporating nature into
the space where you're just you're making it
an attractive appealing comfortable place to be um
i mean i think a couple of things
that were mentioned were you know decent coffee
and having a gym and some of the
things that perhaps were in those you know
(36:48):
larger offices and perhaps around before um but
perhaps even more important now because people are
going to make the effort to leave that
and and go into the office there needs
to be a reason and to do that
and they might want a bit more than
just a place to work it's got to
um provide other things now so that you
(37:08):
know people can make the most of what
i've commuted in so i want this um
to be worth my journey so as well
as work i can also you know i
i did this um had a trip around
if you've ever been to the sky studios
down at osterly in london and it's an
amazing place it's sort of like this campus
and i mean as you can imagine i
(37:30):
mean they're a huge corporation so they they
can do all these things but you know
there were yoga studios there was a dry
cleaning service there was you know laundry there
was a little mini decent supermarket on site
and it was it felt a little bit
it's like you don't want people to leave
like you're trying to keep everybody here you
know there was outdoor cinema of course because
it was sky and you know there were
(37:51):
all these wonderful things that that were there
but i sort of thought to myself gosh
you know if i obviously i i enjoy
my experience working from home but you know
if i had an office environment like that
then it would be yeah it'd be quite
pleasant to go into the office it'd be
quite nice and um yeah and it really
it was very much designed with the with
(38:12):
the person with the people with the employee
in mind so i do think that has
got to be cut nowadays is is such
an important factor you know you can't just
provide a building and say here come in
and work because this curve doesn't really cut
it anymore does it no and i mean
i think i'm sorry i just kicked my
(38:33):
table there um i think there's um there's
also an element of when you're building this
like the the spaces that you're you're designing
if you can make them more configurable and
flexible in themselves so that if you've got
lots of people coming in for a social
event you can make an enormous room that
they can socialize in um or if people
(38:53):
are coming in on a wednesday because they
just need to get some work done that
could be converted into more desks and and
individual workspaces that flexibility from a practical point
of view is very important um but actually
as you say the it needs to be
a nice a nice place to work simple
things which are sort of like table stakes
(39:14):
of nice coffee i've worked at places where
the coffee is is really not very nice
and you're right it makes a it makes
a difference because you start to go well
actually oh what can i do instead um
but i think there's there's also a not
not trying to um disagree with you but
(39:34):
i think that but i'm going to yeah
i do think that a bit like with
people saying that they when when the pandemic
hit and people were saying i'm never going
back to the office what we are now
seeing is because it's been quite a few
years some people are going actually i wish
(39:55):
i could go in just a bit because
i'm now you know i've got used to
that and now i want a bit of
change uh when designing the office i think
there can be if you get employees to
to say what they want you know you
do end up with a we work um
office space where you know you have beer
on tap at specific times and you know
(40:16):
you want creative meeting rooms and that's where
you end up with you know people obviously
still drink the beer but it stops being
a reason to go in it's a well
yeah we're just you know it's fine it's
there but i don't really i don't really
care about it anymore or you end up
with meeting rooms which are designed to be
creative and have swings in them which then
annoy everyone because you go to fall off
(40:38):
the back of them and things like that
so i it was more careful it's not
gimmicky and yes yeah yeah it's you know
make sure that you but even then that's
you're talking about the sort of icing on
the cake the the core fundamentals um start
small stop you know all of these companies
that go right we're going to have a
meeting sorry an office that's going to have
(41:00):
a slide in it and it's going to
you know you have a bar and all
of these things sound great um but actually
is there a way that you can start
a bit smaller and then work up to
that yeah definitely i think what you're saying
really about you know the fundamental reason that
people go and generally that's going to be
to see other people and so you know
(41:22):
i mean i know because i've worked from
home for such a long time it's my
norm and i know how to do it
well for myself but there are definitely times
where i want to get out and it
can become a bit lonely and um and
just having that that change of scene it
you know can be great as we've talked
about with that sort of yeah the coffee
(41:42):
shop effect if you like but it can
also be good for sort of just creativity
and gaining you know a new perspective on
something and you know you could get that
from going out for a walk to be
honest and you know doing different things but
i think perhaps just to end on actually
while you know we've talked about hybrid and
the home and the office and why it's
(42:03):
important for employees and how it can be
useful for employees and generally that's what it's
designed for but i think what we've just
touched on at the end there also highlights
how for someone who's self-employed as well
or who just work you know runs a
business and from from home you know incorporating
a form of hybrid into their week as
(42:23):
well is also could be quite a useful
strategy and i know that i sort of
perhaps do it myself sort of subconsciously or
unconsciously you know i'm doing it like you
know just i might head out today and
it'll just be a bit instinctive as to
what i feel i need but i do
think that change of scene that change of
environment is is quite important and um perhaps
(42:47):
something that a self-employed or a freelancer
person that you know could could do as
well you're i think you're very well um
practiced in this if you sort of go
actually i just i think i need to
go out so no personally for me when
um when i started my business obviously it
was in lockdown so that's when i became
(43:08):
self-employed and at the time we weren't
really allowed out um so my norm starts
to be that actually i wake up and
i come straight to the office and i'll
just work and you know the the outing
would actually be going to the shops or
to queue up in sainsbury's to get into
the shops um and that was my outing
and it's i had to break that process
(43:28):
and make sure that i almost scheduled in
the time where i would get out or
go right on tuesday morning i am going
to go to a coffee shop or now
it's you know i try to plan which
days i am going to go into a
wee work so that i can get that
um that difference because it's very easy when
especially if you're self-employed or a freelancer
and the only people you really see are
(43:51):
through a screen and it can for your
for your mental health be very bad so
trying to be disciplined about it is um
is definitely trying to again it's it's intentionality
isn't it with around hybrid it's making a
plan and then making sure you stick to
it but but also with that fluidity because
you know i will go perhaps if i
(44:13):
know i've got a certain type of work
that i'm doing it will be kind of
task related you know if i'm going to
need to do a zoom call or interview
someone i won't do that from a coffee
shop but if i know that all i
want to do is um sit and do
some planning or i've just got some work
that's type up then i can do that
kind of thing quite easy and so i
(44:33):
think the same applies perhaps with the sort
of home office the hybrid approach it's like
well you know look at the tasks that
you've got and look at when is going
to be to be best um and i
guess there's a kind of element of like
looking at what who are who else is
going to be in as you say and
um and i guess that's where things like
(44:54):
software become useful because you can see who's
going to be in the office and who's
going to um you know you can sort
of plan a bit more around you know
when it's going to be useful yeah and
um i mean that was a nice segue
into my into the plug for my software
as well but um but you're right because
(45:14):
it's the when you're working for yourself you've
got your tasks and you've got your you
know you know your personal circumstances so you
can make those decisions the difficulty is when
you're working with a team is making sure
that what you're planning to do does match
up with other people and that's what we've
tried to do is create a platform where
you can communicate that easily with other people
saying with what i'm doing i'm going to
(45:36):
go into the office because that that is
a good place for me to work and
other people can see that and go right
in which case i'll come in as well
so then you can you can plan and
make sure that you actually are going into
the office at the same time you can
find the right space and book a desk
and all of that sort of stuff so
we're trying to get that sort of that
third thing of the team requirements sorted um
(45:57):
because you know what your tasks are and
what your personal circumstances are yeah that's brilliant
i don't know if there's anything that you
want to add john and sort of in
light of the conversation we've just had um
any sort of final comments or thoughts um
i think just the from my point of
view if if you do have any any
(46:18):
thoughts about hybrid working if anyone watching this
and has any thoughts about hybrid working or
disagrees please do let me know because actually
we we want to learn want to learn
how other people are doing things and um
how they're being successful or lessons they've learned
and things to avoid and likewise with the
home worker we do these kinds of webinars
on various different topics related to remote working
(46:40):
and home working quite regularly so i would
just encourage you to stay up to date
with our with our newsletter and sign up
to get newsletter so that you know what's
going on and get other information and ideas
and open up the conversations around it as
well it's um it's always a good place
to get these but thank you very much
john thank you for your time today and
(47:02):
for sharing all the different yeah there's been
some really interesting thoughts and ideas that you've
shared even around that initial definition of hybrid
you know which i think you know we
sort of have this fixed idea of what
it means that um us with everything it's
kind of open to interpretation so thank you
very much no problem it's a it's a
(47:24):
pleasure um and yeah it's it's great to
meet someone who's actually doing the the remote
thing and has done that for a long
time and isn't just battling with hybrid that's
been a real pleasure as well no it's
been it's been great thank you very much
and thank you for watching as well for
joining us today
Welcome to this session on hybrid working and
thank you for joining us live and if
you are going to be watching the replay
I hope you find this an enjoyable conversation.
I'm joined today by John Jonathan Kent who
is one of the founders of In The
Office and I will get John to briefly
introduce himself as well shortly but just ahead
(00:33):
of the session just so you know obviously
the session is being recorded if you can
keep yourself on mute just while we have
a chat and then at the end if
there are any questions at all then do
feel free we can take any questions and
I will keep an eye on the chat
box as well so if anything pops up
while you're watching and you want to mention
something then feel free to use that chat
(00:55):
box as well.
I think that's about it as a very
brief introduction to me if you've not come
across me before I'm Louise and I'm the
founder of The Home Worker which is a
digital platform and a print magazine as well
for people who work remotely or work from
home or sometimes in a hybrid fashion as
(01:15):
well.
So without further ado we'll get going and
I'd like John to just say a quick
hello do you want to introduce yourself just
explain a bit about who you are and
what you do at In The Office.
Yeah sure I was quite nervous there I
thought I haven't spoken in a while I
was wondering if I was going to squeak
(01:36):
when I first started but yeah so I'm
John Kent and I'm the founder of a
software platform called In The Office which is
designed to help teams manage this new world
of hybrid working so it was built during
the first lockdown specifically designed to try to
help people coordinate when they go into the
(01:57):
office when everything opened back up so yeah
that's us so we've been doing a lot
of work obviously on hybrid working and looking
at how that's happening across the world and
the challenges that it's presenting.
Yeah I mean it's been quite the time
hasn't it since the lockdown when you obviously
(02:18):
first started the company so much has changed
and it'll be really interesting therefore to get
your take on kind of where things are
going what's happening and and some of the
challenges that you mentioned there as well.
I thought to start off with and I
know this might seem an obvious question but
what is hybrid and the reason I ask
(02:39):
is I think it's quite good to start
with that definition of hybrid working because I
think that sometimes you know people do have
slightly different view on what exactly it is
so even if it's just a very short
explanation what I think it's good to start
with that of you know what do you
see as as hybrid working what do you
mean by that?
(03:00):
I mean that's a podcast in itself if
we start looking at the definitions because well
you know the one thing that has come
out is obviously people are defining it as
different things and you end up with things
like structured hybrid and employee-led hybrid team
-led hybrid flexible hybrid I mean if you
(03:20):
actually just look at the sort of wraparound
of everything even if you look at sort
of a dictionary definition it's just composed of
different things so for me I do like
to just go if you're if whatever you're
doing if you're checking your phone on on
the train or something like that or out
for a walk and taking a meeting or
something like that you are effectively working in
(03:42):
a hybrid where you're not just working in
from one workspace so yeah that's my definition
is quite loose I guess but that's just
it sort of encompasses everything.
Yeah because I do think a lot of
people think hybrid is very much related to
place so it's an exact sort of mix
of office and perhaps working from home which
(04:04):
would be the obvious sort of place that
you might work from if you're not in
the office but I guess it could also
mean working from from anywhere and in your
definition doing a mixture of things as well
so and you know we talk about in
the office we talk about working from home
and I think the office itself you talk
about how your definition of hybrid being quite
(04:26):
loose I think your definition of the office
has become a lot looser recently and you
know I think it would be also interesting
to hear what you think about what the
office looks like because like growing up for
instance for me the office you know I
grew up in it was a fairly traditional
household and it was the place my dad
went out to work and it was sort
(04:47):
of this open plan it was quite an
ugly building with a lot of desks and
maybe a few sort of private cubicle spaces
for the execs and that was the office
and it was sort of just you know
perched on the edge of the city centre.
I just think what we think of as
the office now has also changed quite a
(05:08):
lot.
What does the office look like if you're
talking about the office these days?
So first of all the way that I
see the office or really if you prefer
to call it a workspace or you know
your place of work because the office tends
to be the company mandated location that you've
(05:29):
got to work from and if you actually
look back at why the office exists I
did a bit of research for this for
a talk and it's so people argue about
where it came from originally but it was
roughly the sort of 1700s that a single
building existed for people to go to work
(05:49):
and that was generally because of you know
security of information you know the tools that
we were using you know if you remember
I was gonna say back in the day
but it wasn't even that long ago you
know the huge photocopying machines and printers and
stuff like that you know they were far
too expensive for everyone to have.
Technology just wasn't there so you had to
(06:11):
have a single location to work and that's
what I feel coming out of this lots
of people are getting that they're sort of
putting it up on a pedestal that that's
the only place to work you know the
people that are saying we've got to be
back in the office that's what they're thinking
whereas technology has moved on and your place
of work now because of that can be
(06:31):
anywhere so when you start to think about
that the office isn't a single location isn't
that old that ugly building that you know
with loads of desks and the exec offices
it's actually a tool to help us be
productive you know that's what your workspace is
it's designed well it's a tool like any
other it's like your smartphone or your laptop
(06:53):
or a screen or whatever it's just another
tool that you can use to be productive
depending on you know the tasks that you're
doing what your team needs and what's going
on in your own life so for me
the sort of future office is just a
workspace whatever wherever that is and whatever you
(07:14):
need it to be like yeah that's that's
interesting as well because like you say I
think the word office has certain connotations and
actually workspace it's just a lot more fluid
and flexible and could essentially be anywhere I
guess we're trying to differentiate between the remote
aspect and then that fixed place of work
(07:35):
but you know people have home offices people
go you know and the office I guess
as well you know there's co-working spaces
now there are people going to work from
you know other venues libraries or even hotel
lobbies I know some people use those sorts
of areas so it's really varied now like
(07:57):
kind of what the office is and I
think also the role of the office has
significantly changed and particularly again since the pandemic
because so much can be done from home
and like you were saying like the technology
and everything that we use has shrunk to
a size that's manageable from our from our
homes so it because of that I guess
(08:20):
it almost does beg the question you know
why people do come into the office and
I understand you know there are certain jobs
and they're not even office jobs that they're
jobs that people can't do from home and
there are several examples where you know hospitals
for instance or factories and those sorts of
things but you know if you are coming
(08:43):
into an office wherever that might be to
sit at your desk with your headphones on
to dial into some zoom calls maybe just
do some focused work and the point what
what is the point therefore of going into
the office because that is the sort of
thing that a lot of people can do
quite easily from home without the hassle of
the travel or you know the commuting expense
(09:07):
so I just wonder like what the role
of the office is these days when we
think about it in the sort of more
conventional sense of the place where employees mostly
come and get together to work and I
just wonder if it's almost become more of
a social space now as well yeah I
mean definitely for for a lot of people
(09:29):
I think it's there are obviously multiple reasons
why you go into a an office the
the social side is is the massive one
that we saw coming out of lockdown you
know everyone being cooped up in their house
especially people in different you know we're all
different we all have different scenarios so particularly
(09:51):
younger workforce where they might be in a
single bedroom flat you know working from there
is actually terrible for your mental health as
well as lots of other things so coming
out of that and going to a essential
location where hopefully people are that you can
interact with and learn from is really important
so from that perspective to socialize the social
(10:13):
area is is really good but there's also
a lot of benefit in you know changing
up your your workplace so you know the
coffee shop effect which was obviously the thing
before pre-pandemic when you know some people
said I'm so much more productive when working
from the coffee shop it's like well yes
(10:34):
but if you always work from the coffee
shop that would also your productivity would decline
because you're forming a habit you know you're
not having new experiences the the benefit of
the dopamine hit of being around you know
a completely different environment it starts to wear
off from where we've gone pre-pandemic to
where we are now with so many of
(10:55):
us spending more of our time working from
home it does benefit to go to a
centralized location again there's you know there are
benefits of having a different desk setup you
know the thing that's I'm slightly worried about
for the next sort of 10 years is
(11:15):
the number of people who have been working
from home but actually been working from their
kitchen table on a laptop and are gonna
have you know crumbling backs and things like
that because you don't you don't realize that
it's something that gets looked after when you
go to a centralized place where the company
buys all of the kit um the ergonomic
side of things which are really important things
(11:37):
that I you know hear as well when
I talk to people about you know the
role of the office because obviously a home
worker we talk a lot about working from
home but I've always said you know that's
not me with some agenda of like everyone
should be working from home it's a resource
to support people when they do and if
they do but I think there is a
(11:58):
place and a time for people to get
together whether that needs to be in the
office I think is the thing that's that's
debatable for sure but you like you've mentioned
there's the social aspect there's that that productivity
aspect of just changing the environment I know
you know from personal experience going out maybe
(12:18):
working you know a day a week for
just a couple of hours in a coffee
shop or something I do tend to focus
and get on with stuff because there are
other distractions that happen around at home as
well and also I think it's sort of
the collaboration side of things like if it's
sometimes people just find it helpful to be
in person don't they and obviously there are
(12:40):
some fully remote businesses that collaborate perfectly effectively
remotely but I think there are times where
sometimes people want I just love to get
together and brainstorm some ideas and and again
and the mentoring side of things which you
mentioned like for younger perhaps for younger graduates
or people just entering the workforce where just
(13:02):
having that sort of sense of people around
them and being able to learn even by
osmosis so you know just learning the sort
of the ropes as it were and giving
that sense of being you know yeah part
of something but I do think that's that's
an interesting one which I will come on
to in terms of the the reasons people
(13:24):
go to the office because I think we've
heard a lot particularly in the headlines quite
recently about things like you know these return
to office mandates and I did want to
ask you a bit about that as well
because it feels like I mean some of
the reasons that are given are you know
that it was you know it's better for
productivity it's better for a sense of culture
(13:46):
it's not fair if not everybody can can
work from home you know these sorts of
things all these arguments that keep coming up
so I'm just wondering what you think about
the sort of these I guess in some
ways there's a sort of trying to enforce
people to come back full-time into an
(14:07):
office.
There are so many points that you brought
up there you know the fairness one is
something that I've even done a podcast on
separately where you know we talk about about
that.
What you hear in the headlines is always
going to be very polarizing and is always
just there to to make the people who
are who are being asked to go back
(14:29):
into the office you know feel vindicated that
they should be angry and that sort of
thing.
I do think there are occasions where it
can actually be necessary for certain companies to
to do that depending on their workforce but
in the vast majority of cases it does
just seem to be a let's you know
(14:49):
use a sledgehammer to crack a nut it's
it's trying to trying to solve what's actually
a really complicated multifaceted problem with a single
line and that's where it's sort of it
very quickly unravels as soon as you start
to ask probing questions about that it usually
(15:10):
then comes down to them saying well we've
looked at the data and the data says
this and then you go okay well what
data are you looking at and it usually
ends up being that someone saw something somewhere
which could be taken as you know supporting
the argument both for and against.
For me when people say that their bosses
are doing a return to office mandate you
(15:30):
do think well okay but that's generally not
going to be fair for a lot of
people then quite a lot of the people
in that company are probably going to immediately
have to break it because of their job
role so you know if you say well
everyone has to be in the office five
days a week but you've got a whole
sales team that needs to be out on
the road well okay so instantly you've separated
those those two those two types of workers
(15:53):
so my feeling is it if you feel
like you need to do that to create
a baseline then fine if you do a
full return to the office then you're probably
going to lose a lot of staff because
we've now experienced the freedom and and the
benefits to our own lives of having the
flexibility to to spend more time at home
(16:14):
or to not have to commute into the
office or you know all of those things
which isn't they're not always just a personal
benefit it can be that actually I am
much more productive on a Friday when I
can do some deep thinking and be at
home and work for me personally I found
that before the before the pandemic if I
had a day at home I could do
(16:35):
some really deep thinking whereas if I went
into the office I'd be disturbed every five
seconds so I then couldn't do my job
properly so it's I think as a policy
of let's do it it's you know fine
if that's what you want to do expect
that people will revolt against it and and
(16:55):
you'll probably lose some staff depending on your
business because also all of this does depend
on the type of business you're running you
know there are some companies where even small
companies where actually a full-time a full
-time return to the office is is fine
because everyone lives you know five minutes from
the central area and actually that's what means
(17:15):
that they can be more productive and and
they're better so it's not always bad but
in the majority of cases yeah I uh
I would avoid it I mean when when
I first started hearing people doing it and
I'm sort of backtracking on like we're all
going to be remote and that's how we've
got to be back in the office it
sort of felt like there was this um
(17:37):
from their point of view this loss of
control and so trying to to reassert that
um and and in fact there was a
study I think there was quite a large
study done in the University of Pittsburgh which
did find that it was also not only
a kind of a control issue but also
sort of a way of blaming employees for
(17:59):
poor performance so you know that because you're
working from home you're not performing whereas actually
as you highlighted there are so many reasons
and factors that we need to consider you
can't just look at where working um I
thought it was quite interesting that there were
when people sort of blame or people look
for reasons such as productivity or profits and
(18:22):
that sort of thing that I saw some
stats um posted by Nick Bloom who's a
professor at Stanford and he does a lot
of research around working from home and he
actually posted some stats showing this correlation in
the US with companies posting higher profits with
(18:42):
the increase in working from home and I
don't think he specifically said it was causation
but the correlation is very clear um and
I think like you say trying to enforce
something is never going to be popular so
there'd be I imagine quite a lot of
staff attrition as well you know and if
it feels like you're not trusted and I
(19:04):
think trust is such a big thing when
we're talking about remote working when we're talking
about hybrid working um the trust issue the
trust factor is is just so important on
both on both sides you know employers need
to be able to trust that they're getting
on with their work and they're doing that
um equally employees want to trust that you
(19:24):
know their needs are being looked after and
you know that it's it's yeah it's this
it's this two-way thing but I think
it's a word that that crops up quite
a lot in these situations but yeah interesting
with the return to office because I just
think it kind of comes on to this
other question as well about how you've seen
things change over the last um few years
(19:48):
because it does feel like there's been a
bit of to and fro perhaps with you
know we're all going remote now we're all
coming back or now you can do two
days or now oh no we've decided on
three days it feels like people aren't quite
sure and that it's still very much a
work in progress what have you seen through
you know your clients or your experiences what
(20:08):
what changes have have happened and what sort
of perhaps what best practices there are when
it comes to hybrid yeah I mean the
the the challenges as you say are and
and the the flip-flopping has been really
quite quite interesting to watch from from afar
um and I think it also comes back
(20:29):
to that sort of looking at it as
a problem that needs a single fix rather
than all of the different areas that it
will touch um and the saying we'll all
be remote seemed like it'd be easy and
lots of companies did um reduce their office
space um and and save a lot of
money in the in the process which for
(20:50):
some will have saved the businesses because you
know the pandemic was was horrific um and
that now they've realized actually the problems that
come along with with remote work went sorry
not the problems the challenges that are associated
with it um and with uh big teams
and big companies where you've got a layer
of managers who aren't used to managing someone
(21:12):
remotely you know they're used to that sort
of um being able to just look over
a screen and see what someone's doing or
see that they're working or generally see that
they're just sat there you know reading the
news um because of the presenteeism and things
like that playing solitaire was the classic one
wasn't it yeah exactly um and I think
(21:33):
the that that's actually one of the biggest
issues is um firstly we've got um a
huge um population of managers who have no
formal training I think the um uh the
I can't remember the the acronym for it
now but the Chartered Institute of Managers I
think is um said something like 78 percent
(21:55):
of managers have had no formal training and
have just been promoted as part of well
this is the only thing that we can
think we can do so you know we
need to make you more senior but you've
got to now manage people when a lot
of people like I just want to do
my job I don't want to have a
team um yeah so you've got yeah yeah
exactly so you know you've got all of
(22:16):
these people who are who are accidental managers
and then suddenly the way that they thought
they could manage has been completely changed and
they're now having to be a lot more
um you know it's actually it's massively increased
their workload trying to manage remote people is
is harder because you don't know what they're
doing you've got to be more proactive at
(22:37):
communicating with them and I think that's that
effect has sort of gone up the ranks
to the senior level where they've then gone
right in which case we need to all
be back in the office because then we
can revert to what we had um so
let's do a return to office mandate and
of course then you have the it's this
is what's causing all the flip-flopping um
(22:57):
and the biggest challenge is it is just
polarizing the the authority with the workers so
when when we're talking to clients the thing
we usually say is try to not start
with this hard and fast rule because as
soon as you do your you know whatever
happens when you change it you're going to
(23:18):
be seen to be you know exerting your
authority again and well you've just said this
and we we all fought against it and
now you've changed your mind and there's you
know it's it's it's really bad for for
the workforce to be treated like that it
shows a huge lack of trust and just
means that you're not going to get the
best out of people um but the yeah
(23:40):
sorry no I was just I was going
to sort of echo the point slightly and
what you're saying about the management side and
the leadership because it does require a slightly
different approach to leadership and I think the
word proactive that you used is is a
key one really because it it might increase
your workload or it might I feel like
it's it's also it's changed people just the
(24:00):
way people have have to work and have
to operate because you know it might be
harder to if you're used to having that
sort of management by seeing and relying on
presenteers and in the office then you know
it's going to take some adjustments but it
is I think the communication aspect is is
so important and it's always been important but
(24:21):
it becomes even more important in terms of
that sort of reaching out and forming relationships
and being that kind of that open door
policy in terms of you can come and
chat to me whenever but it can be
a bit harder because you sort of need
to model that yourself to let people know
that you know it's okay to just you
know drop me a message or you know
(24:42):
and to do it via a screen might
sometimes feel a little harder or more awkward
it depends it depends on how you like
doing these things it's kind of the balance
between checking in and not micromanaging I think
as well it's one of the difficulties when
you're sort of dealing with with remote workers
um the um the open door policy that
(25:03):
you mentioned there as well is um I
heard someone talking about this on a podcast
and they said you know that that's not
actually a proactive approach it's quite reactive yeah
I was like mind is blown yeah so
well actually there there will be and and
that's where management is actually quite an important
skill that people will need different styles of
(25:23):
management um you know you can't just go
yeah my door's open well no one's coming
to me so therefore there are no problems
if there's a junior who's you know worried
about talking to you you need to be
more proactive and and actually yeah do the
management yeah no I I simply agree it
is it is quite passive to just my
door's open which is why I think yeah
that's sort of this modeling is actually important
(25:46):
as well but I think also highlights how
important it is as a manager to understand
your team and really get to know you
well because you know if you and I
think we saw this when everybody you know
went into lockdown and we were having to
they were having to manage from from home
and do it remotely you know if you
don't know your team if you don't know
(26:06):
that all their strengths if you don't know
all their different personalities if you don't know
how they like to be communicated to or
how they like to work because you've just
relied on the fact that they're there within
sights within reach and you can just sort
of you know throw something out to them
like you know this yeah it's um it
really does create you know a more kind
(26:26):
of how important it is to really understand
um your team and and the individuals within
that team um I think and again I've
talked about this with somebody else who's talking
about how important it is to engage people
when we're working remotely and and understanding them
because everybody has different motivators and you know
(26:47):
and in some cases different agendas you know
and it's so it's really hard to sometimes
get everything in alignment and to make everything
work for everybody and I guess that's always
going to be a sort of a where
compromises have to be made in in all
these situations um the one thing I think
(27:08):
about when as well when it comes to
hybrid and we're talking about some of the
challenges and perhaps some of the best ways
to to implement it is the sort of
intentionality behind it I think that some of
the time you sort of see these hybrid
policies come in so it's like okay we'll
be more flexible and we'll let you work
(27:29):
uh from home two or three days and
then but you must come into the office
on Tuesday and Wednesday I think I'm in
my mind that actually that isn't that flexible
you're still mandating two days that they have
to be in the office um and I
think we need to really ask ourselves why
why are you coming back in it's fine
(27:49):
to have a hybrid policy and I think
in many situations it works well for everybody
because it gives people that that best of
both um but perhaps it needs to be
a bit less arbitrary and more about you
come in when it's necessary when there was
a reason to come in and not just
because it's a Tuesday and therefore you have
to be in the office because if that
day as we've mentioned if on that day
(28:11):
you are literally going to be on calls
most of the day you may as well
be at home so um yeah I wonder
how you see that in terms of you
know deciding when people should come into the
office and when people should be you know
allowed to to stay home yeah oh it's
you're absolutely right that the the the Tuesday
(28:33):
Wednesday Thursday club um you know it's you're
you're giving people a it's sort of almost
talking back to when working from home was
a privilege you know that came with seniority
and it's sort of going right well fine
we'll give it to everyone and as you
said you need to work out what what
people are doing and what the what their
team needs and what their personal lives require
(28:57):
as to whether they should work so if
the team requires people to be in on
a particular day because you're kicking off a
project then you then the office is a
good well the office or a centralized work
hub um it's a good place for you
to all meet up um but it's not
just about the the team you know there
(29:18):
are loads of people that do actually go
into the office because their home lives are
are you know they've got kids running around
and they can't they that's their the place
that they can do their deep work so
it's it's not a i i agree with
you that i don't think it's a a
strict thing i think it's really variable and
(29:39):
it will change depending on you know the
age of the person the jobs that they're
doing um even within their sort of job
remit the tasks that they're doing um even
down to like the time of year um
so i know in in advance of this
you mentioned about um uh what would pull
people back into the office anything well yeah
(29:59):
as summer's coming up um that's generally a
time where you have you know company summer
parties um if you go into london on
on a thursday they'll usually be you know
hordes of people outside of pub having a
drink and you know that's that's incredibly important
for teams to to get together and to
socialize and that is something that happens probably
more in summer so you know are we
(30:21):
actually going to see more office use in
in the winter than in the summer or
the other way around or you know it's
yeah i think it's in the winter i
imagine people might want to go in for
the heating and then in the summer like
you're saying maybe it's there's a sort of
more you know summer's in the air and
everyone feels a bit more sociable um at
(30:43):
the same time you know i love it
on a really warm sunny day i mean
if you're lucky enough at home you know
you've got a garden or whatever then it's
nice to just you know throw the door
open and have the windows open and and
and be able to have your you know
lunch outside in the garden although these sort
of like little perks i suppose of being
able to do it but yeah yeah it's
it is interesting and i guess it does
(31:05):
come to that point that we've sort of
discussed a little bit before around attracting people
to the office because i do think you
know if you are going to say you
must come back even if it's just for
so many days and even if they have
ultimate flexibility over when they come in um
you know there's still kind of again people
(31:28):
want to the office the workplace needs to
be an attractive proposition um so i you
know do you see any kind of thing
that people are looking for people looking for
more from their from that sort of workplace
now then because i think when we are
working from home we can tailor our environment
(31:49):
so you know we can have everything just
as we like you know we're not sharing
desks or chairs which is sometimes the case
in the office um we might have our
you know little personal bits and pieces around
it just that make us feel a bit
more comfortable we've got the convenience of our
own kitchen and and the sort of things
that we just like and we've created this
(32:10):
quite bespoke environment that works for us um
so the office is kind of fighting against
that in some ways yeah yeah um i
mean again i think it comes down to
why why you're using it i mean everything
you're saying is is right from the intentionality
to you know what the what the office
is actually like so if you're going in
(32:31):
and you want to use the office for
that social aspect then it needs to be
set up in a way that you that
encourages that so that you then go actually
yes i will go in because i know
that other people will be in at the
same time for a start otherwise you're by
yourself on a sofa um but um if
you're going in for work then are their
desks set up which will make you more
(32:53):
productive for work so you know a really
key thing about that because i go to
uh weworks quite a bit and one of
the biggest issues i have there is you've
got yes a nice desk and a nice
chair but i don't have an external monitor
so you know if if you're going into
the office to do some actual work then
you need people so the company needs to
(33:14):
set it up they need to understand the
reason why um which again comes back to
the intentionality it's you know look at why
people are using the office is it just
for the social side is it for work
is it a mixture of both in which
case create an environment that supports those activities
um you know having an external monitor or
a place where you can just walk in
(33:35):
put your laptop down you have an external
keyboard and mouse you have your external monitor
means that you will be more productive rather
than going i need to get away from
my house because i've got my office set
up but the kids are on holiday so
i'm on holiday from school so they're running
around but so i can't work here but
if i go into the office i'll just
be on a laptop and then i'll come
back with a you know back pain and
(33:56):
and won't be productive you know these are
the challenges that people are are facing when
looking at um whether or not they should
go into the office or not and i
think for for companies they need to intentionally
look at this and look at the data
from within their own company there's a huge
push for people as i said earlier just
(34:17):
looking at data and going right that's that's
what matters for these companies so we're going
to do the same okay well aren't you
doing exactly the same things as those people
is the makeup of your company exactly the
same you know if one company has a
very young workforce and the other has a
very old workforce they're going to need different
things so try to look at what your
(34:38):
own company needs and then work from there
and the easiest way you know if we
go back to thinking of the office as
a product then it's basically build it like
a you know someone would build a software
product or a hardware product where you start
small try to learn as you're building and
don't make any hard and fast rules that
you then can't break later because that would
(35:00):
influence everything so just get everyone on side
and say this is what we're trying to
do we're trying to make everyone's lives better
so we're going to start with this experiment
we're going to learn from it and then
we're going to keep building and change change
what we do yeah this is like quite
an iterative process really isn't it you're always
going to be you know learning tweaking you
know and i guess that's still the process
(35:21):
that a lot of people are are in
um post pandemic they're still sort of trying
to work out um what what works best
for everyone i mean it's interesting what you're
saying about you know having in the office
what people need you know from the technology
is obviously a key one um and certain
equipment and things but i a little while
(35:43):
ago um hosted this panel on you know
what the sort of trends are for for
the office the sort of the new office
of today post pandemic and yeah i mean
a lot of the things that that people
were talking about were around you know the
office has has to be appealing it has
to have that social element so it almost
(36:05):
has to now be a creation of different
zones for different things and you're going to
you're going to need that space for people
who are in the office perhaps all day
but do want an hour where they can
do some just focused dedicated work they want
to just go home for that um but
also the the design of the office itself
(36:25):
in is becoming so important the sort of
the biophilic design where you're incorporating nature into
the space where you're just you're making it
an attractive appealing comfortable place to be um
i mean i think a couple of things
that were mentioned were you know decent coffee
and having a gym and some of the
things that perhaps were in those you know
(36:48):
larger offices and perhaps around before um but
perhaps even more important now because people are
going to make the effort to leave that
and and go into the office there needs
to be a reason and to do that
and they might want a bit more than
just a place to work it's got to
um provide other things now so that you
(37:08):
know people can make the most of what
i've commuted in so i want this um
to be worth my journey so as well
as work i can also you know i
i did this um had a trip around
if you've ever been to the sky studios
down at osterly in london and it's an
amazing place it's sort of like this campus
and i mean as you can imagine i
(37:30):
mean they're a huge corporation so they they
can do all these things but you know
there were yoga studios there was a dry
cleaning service there was you know laundry there
was a little mini decent supermarket on site
and it was it felt a little bit
it's like you don't want people to leave
like you're trying to keep everybody here you
know there was outdoor cinema of course because
it was sky and you know there were
(37:51):
all these wonderful things that that were there
but i sort of thought to myself gosh
you know if i obviously i i enjoy
my experience working from home but you know
if i had an office environment like that
then it would be yeah it'd be quite
pleasant to go into the office it'd be
quite nice and um yeah and it really
it was very much designed with the with
(38:12):
the person with the people with the employee
in mind so i do think that has
got to be cut nowadays is is such
an important factor you know you can't just
provide a building and say here come in
and work because this curve doesn't really cut
it anymore does it no and i mean
i think i'm sorry i just kicked my
(38:33):
table there um i think there's um there's
also an element of when you're building this
like the the spaces that you're you're designing
if you can make them more configurable and
flexible in themselves so that if you've got
lots of people coming in for a social
event you can make an enormous room that
they can socialize in um or if people
(38:53):
are coming in on a wednesday because they
just need to get some work done that
could be converted into more desks and and
individual workspaces that flexibility from a practical point
of view is very important um but actually
as you say the it needs to be
a nice a nice place to work simple
things which are sort of like table stakes
(39:14):
of nice coffee i've worked at places where
the coffee is is really not very nice
and you're right it makes a it makes
a difference because you start to go well
actually oh what can i do instead um
but i think there's there's also a not
not trying to um disagree with you but
(39:34):
i think that but i'm going to yeah
i do think that a bit like with
people saying that they when when the pandemic
hit and people were saying i'm never going
back to the office what we are now
seeing is because it's been quite a few
years some people are going actually i wish
(39:55):
i could go in just a bit because
i'm now you know i've got used to
that and now i want a bit of
change uh when designing the office i think
there can be if you get employees to
to say what they want you know you
do end up with a we work um
office space where you know you have beer
on tap at specific times and you know
(40:16):
you want creative meeting rooms and that's where
you end up with you know people obviously
still drink the beer but it stops being
a reason to go in it's a well
yeah we're just you know it's fine it's
there but i don't really i don't really
care about it anymore or you end up
with meeting rooms which are designed to be
creative and have swings in them which then
annoy everyone because you go to fall off
(40:38):
the back of them and things like that
so i it was more careful it's not
gimmicky and yes yeah yeah it's you know
make sure that you but even then that's
you're talking about the sort of icing on
the cake the the core fundamentals um start
small stop you know all of these companies
that go right we're going to have a
meeting sorry an office that's going to have
(41:00):
a slide in it and it's going to
you know you have a bar and all
of these things sound great um but actually
is there a way that you can start
a bit smaller and then work up to
that yeah definitely i think what you're saying
really about you know the fundamental reason that
people go and generally that's going to be
to see other people and so you know
(41:22):
i mean i know because i've worked from
home for such a long time it's my
norm and i know how to do it
well for myself but there are definitely times
where i want to get out and it
can become a bit lonely and um and
just having that that change of scene it
you know can be great as we've talked
about with that sort of yeah the coffee
(41:42):
shop effect if you like but it can
also be good for sort of just creativity
and gaining you know a new perspective on
something and you know you could get that
from going out for a walk to be
honest and you know doing different things but
i think perhaps just to end on actually
while you know we've talked about hybrid and
the home and the office and why it's
(42:03):
important for employees and how it can be
useful for employees and generally that's what it's
designed for but i think what we've just
touched on at the end there also highlights
how for someone who's self-employed as well
or who just work you know runs a
business and from from home you know incorporating
a form of hybrid into their week as
(42:23):
well is also could be quite a useful
strategy and i know that i sort of
perhaps do it myself sort of subconsciously or
unconsciously you know i'm doing it like you
know just i might head out today and
it'll just be a bit instinctive as to
what i feel i need but i do
think that change of scene that change of
environment is is quite important and um perhaps
(42:47):
something that a self-employed or a freelancer
person that you know could could do as
well you're i think you're very well um
practiced in this if you sort of go
actually i just i think i need to
go out so no personally for me when
um when i started my business obviously it
was in lockdown so that's when i became
(43:08):
self-employed and at the time we weren't
really allowed out um so my norm starts
to be that actually i wake up and
i come straight to the office and i'll
just work and you know the the outing
would actually be going to the shops or
to queue up in sainsbury's to get into
the shops um and that was my outing
and it's i had to break that process
(43:28):
and make sure that i almost scheduled in
the time where i would get out or
go right on tuesday morning i am going
to go to a coffee shop or now
it's you know i try to plan which
days i am going to go into a
wee work so that i can get that
um that difference because it's very easy when
especially if you're self-employed or a freelancer
and the only people you really see are
(43:51):
through a screen and it can for your
for your mental health be very bad so
trying to be disciplined about it is um
is definitely trying to again it's it's intentionality
isn't it with around hybrid it's making a
plan and then making sure you stick to
it but but also with that fluidity because
you know i will go perhaps if i
(44:13):
know i've got a certain type of work
that i'm doing it will be kind of
task related you know if i'm going to
need to do a zoom call or interview
someone i won't do that from a coffee
shop but if i know that all i
want to do is um sit and do
some planning or i've just got some work
that's type up then i can do that
kind of thing quite easy and so i
(44:33):
think the same applies perhaps with the sort
of home office the hybrid approach it's like
well you know look at the tasks that
you've got and look at when is going
to be to be best um and i
guess there's a kind of element of like
looking at what who are who else is
going to be in as you say and
um and i guess that's where things like
(44:54):
software become useful because you can see who's
going to be in the office and who's
going to um you know you can sort
of plan a bit more around you know
when it's going to be useful yeah and
um i mean that was a nice segue
into my into the plug for my software
as well but um but you're right because
(45:14):
it's the when you're working for yourself you've
got your tasks and you've got your you
know you know your personal circumstances so you
can make those decisions the difficulty is when
you're working with a team is making sure
that what you're planning to do does match
up with other people and that's what we've
tried to do is create a platform where
you can communicate that easily with other people
saying with what i'm doing i'm going to
(45:36):
go into the office because that that is
a good place for me to work and
other people can see that and go right
in which case i'll come in as well
so then you can you can plan and
make sure that you actually are going into
the office at the same time you can
find the right space and book a desk
and all of that sort of stuff so
we're trying to get that sort of that
third thing of the team requirements sorted um
(45:57):
because you know what your tasks are and
what your personal circumstances are yeah that's brilliant
i don't know if there's anything that you
want to add john and sort of in
light of the conversation we've just had um
any sort of final comments or thoughts um
i think just the from my point of
view if if you do have any any
(46:18):
thoughts about hybrid working if anyone watching this
and has any thoughts about hybrid working or
disagrees please do let me know because actually
we we want to learn want to learn
how other people are doing things and um
how they're being successful or lessons they've learned
and things to avoid and likewise with the
home worker we do these kinds of webinars
on various different topics related to remote working
(46:40):
and home working quite regularly so i would
just encourage you to stay up to date
with our with our newsletter and sign up
to get newsletter so that you know what's
going on and get other information and ideas
and open up the conversations around it as
well it's um it's always a good place
to get these but thank you very much
john thank you for your time today and
(47:02):
for sharing all the different yeah there's been
some really interesting thoughts and ideas that you've
shared even around that initial definition of hybrid
you know which i think you know we
sort of have this fixed idea of what
it means that um us with everything it's
kind of open to interpretation so thank you
very much no problem it's a it's a
(47:24):
pleasure um and yeah it's it's great to
meet someone who's actually doing the the remote
thing and has done that for a long
time and isn't just battling with hybrid that's
been a real pleasure as well no it's
been it's been great thank you very much
and thank you for watching as well for
joining us today
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