February 14, 2024 • 31 mins
In this episode Jon and Adam discuss the potential of changing our paradigms around how we, and those professionals managing hot desks and office spaces for us, approach offices spaces.
With offices being put back on pedestal by CEOs from some leading organisations, many siting offices needing to be protected as they are the cultural epicentres of a business, and the sole place that true work gets done. We disagree and believe there is a better way...
With over 15 years in product development, Jon Kent shares how looking at the office this way can change the mindset of hybrid and remote working, completely re-imagining how office spaces could serve people and businesses better. This in turn would make office managers and facilities managers more product managers, if only in approach.
With a new paradigm around the office as a tool, this could be enough to meet and dispel the fear around productivity, business culture and flexible working many leaders are displaying.
See the full video on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@intheoffice
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to in the office cast with John Kent and Adam Scorey, a podcast about business
culture, technology and solving the challenges and misconceptions surrounding hybrid and
remote working. Hi, welcome to another vlog from John and I from in the office. So today's
(00:30):
an interesting one. So it's a bit of a challenge for me this. So John, the office as a productivity
tool. What do you mean? Well, I, my background being in product management is I see things very
much, you know, individual products and users. And that's sort of how I how I quantify things.
(00:55):
And with everything that happened after the pandemic, and, you know, the way that the world
was moving. I felt like people are that there's this way that people are trying to promote the
office as if it's, you know, they're putting it up on a pedestal as if that's something that needs to
be protected, as that's the thing that creates culture within a company, you know, that's the
(01:20):
place where work gets done. And I feel like that puts people down the wrong routes when they're
trying to work out how they're going to, you know, implement a hybrid working policy or how they what
they need the decisions they may need to make about the future of the office is if you're, if
you've got a skewed view of it, as if that's the thing that does stuff, then you're not going to
(01:43):
make the right decision. So something that I bang on about a lot is that the office isn't something
that creates culture, it doesn't do anything, you know, it requires its users in order to be
valuable. So, you know, an office block that's just sat there, doesn't do anything, it's just
it's just a cost center, isn't it? It's just creating a drain on the company's resources,
(02:06):
it requires its users, its people to actually use it in order to be valuable. So if you start to
think of it as it's a productivity tool, that I found that very useful to then go well, actually,
what do you need from a productivity tool? And actually, I don't think this is just limited to
offices, it's really your workspace. You know, whether that's in the office, whether it's at
(02:29):
home, whether it's at a coffee shop, it doesn't really matter. It's, is your workspace the right
tool for you to be using for that job? It's interesting, actually, because, I mean, we
worked started in something like, what was it, 1995? I think, sort of the research that I did,
and obviously, from that point of view, they were well ahead of the pandemic, well ahead of this
(02:53):
thinking now that as a productivity tool, because I've, you know, we work from a WeWork office,
don't we? When we're together, and they're split into zones of activity or zones of productivity,
and that perhaps the way that you're thinking about it, and they are set for a purpose. Now,
what intrigues me about this is, is that's fine, when you've got, you know, 5000 people in a 25
(03:17):
storey office block or something, but, but what you're thinking then for, say, you know, there's
10 people in a company, and they've got one small office space, how, is this about mindset, rather
than is about desks and computers? I think it's a, it's sort of a mixture. And actually, you reminded
me of something they're talking about WeWork and when they started. And this was something that
(03:40):
was quite big before the pandemic, where facilities managers and leaders were trying to work out agile
workspaces. So they've sort of looked at the way that software is being developed. So I mean, quite
a lot of these things do go back to software methodologies. So it used to be that you build
stuff in a waterfall way where you basically you get all of the requirements that you need to build
(04:03):
right up front, you then go away for a year, you build the thing. And then at the end of the year,
as you go off the waterfall, you deliver it. And usually what would happen is you turn out that
you got some requirements wrong at the start. So what is then what you get in the end is rubbish.
So they then tried to shorten that down and do more agile workflows where you do shorter stints
(04:26):
of or they're called sprints of working. And you it's really oversimplifying it, but it's basically
you do the things that you need to in order to get the thing out. So it's, you know, you build
quickly, you release it so people can check it, you then get feedback, and then you rebuild it.
And that moved into the workspace area. So it was how do you create an agile workspace where people
(04:50):
can go and work in the right place for the mood that they were in or for the work they were doing.
And that's sort of where I think a lot of WeWork's ideas came from. I do remember
someone saying that they had a meeting room in a room full of swings, which was just, no one
had a good comment to say about that slide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, you know, so you'd
(05:18):
shuffle in and then sit on the swing. And then I can't imagine, you know, the I don't know if the
swings moved, I imagine they did. But anyway, you know, you can obviously go too far with these things.
But yeah, that's, that's sort of where that idea came from. And it's company started to
well, some companies were starting to implement it before the pandemic. Now we're back. And,
(05:43):
you know, there is that. Is it a mindset shift? It's I guess it's just trying to go.
What actually do you need? And it's not just I think about what one person needs. So for me,
the there are three key elements to what makes up the best place for someone to work. And that's
the task that they're doing. So the job that they're actually doing, the requirements of their
(06:08):
team, you know, and that's not just their immediate team, it could be the wider team,
the wider company, and also their personal circumstances. And I sort of see it as a Venn
diagram where there's this really nice little intersection between those three things, which
dictates where the best place for that person to work each day is. And so, you know, what tool
(06:31):
is the best tool for them to use in order to be productive? So it might be that it's the office,
it might be that actually, the team requires everyone to be together. Or it might be that
actually, if you're doing software, for example, and you've had some planning sessions, you could
then go away for two weeks and work somewhere else completely away, siloed away, you know,
some slack communications all you need. And that actually works really well for you because you can
(06:54):
get into it. Or similarly, if your personal circumstances are that, you know, you're,
you only live in a studio apartment and you've got a dog and, you know, or a young child or
something like that, then you can't work from home. So you need to be in the office. So it's,
it's trying to make sure that everyone gets what they need. And everyone has the right,
(07:16):
the right tool to do their job. So do you think the time of having a desk, if you like, you know,
people will say that's my desk, you know, and put all my personal things on it and all my
filing and all this kind of stuff. Do you think the time for that has gone?
Um, I'm going to be the typical sort of a non-answer. It depends. So, you know,
(07:39):
it completely depends on, on, on the company and the person. So, you know, if that's something that
the company can afford, if they can afford for everyone to have their own desk, brilliant.
Let's, you know, and people use it. That's great. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with
that. But similarly, if you're someone that actually, you know, you're very happy working
from home, you might have those things at your own desk, but then you go into the office just to
(08:03):
make sure that you sit for the day next to some people or sit away from people if you want to,
um, you know, it's really, it's, it's not a one size fits all. It's a, you know, as I said,
depending on the tasks that you're doing, you want to have the right, the right tool for the
job. You wouldn't, um, and I've mentioned this to you before, but you wouldn't dig a hole with a
(08:24):
hammer. You know, you want to get a spade. You want, you want to have the right tool for the
job that you're doing. Um, and actually I think that's, that is one of the things which everything
that you see on LinkedIn goes against that. Everyone's still talking about return to work
mandates. You know, the, the big, big companies are still saying you've got to come back. People
(08:46):
are even throwing in, you know, it's unfair for people, for others, if some section of their
workforce can work from home and that others can work for something else. We were talking about
that last night, weren't we? With the L'Oreal chapter. It's unfair to blue collar workers,
I believe, you know, he's paid, what is it? 10 and a half million euros a year or something.
Yeah. L'Oreal too. Yeah.
(09:08):
Well, exactly. And it's, but it's also like the fairness doesn't come into it. It's,
is that the right tool? So, you know, if you, if you hire a bus driver or someone that drives a
lorry, you can't go, well, you've got to be in the office because his workspace, his tool of the
trade is a lorry. You wouldn't, you'd want to make sure that they have the right size for the job
(09:28):
that they're doing. You know, it's, it, there is too much emphasis on the office as a thing that
needs to be protected. Yeah. When I wrote about this in one of the blogs that, um, uh, just before
Christmas, actually about the whole paradigm is a 500 year old paradigm in the office. And it's
gone through various different iterations of how it's used, you know, from the Victorians kind of
(09:53):
workhouses. And you have 500 people in the space and they're just banging stuff out and you have
people kind of making sure that they're there. And, you know, I think I was reading something
even this morning talking about how it was, um, I think it was Spain that introduced a much shorter
day for, for, um, machine workers and factory workers and stuff like that. And it's sort of
changed, but ultimately it stayed the same thing. It's tried to mold it in slightly different ways
(10:16):
when, um, I think in the sixties, they, you know, this imagine the sixties, you know,
would be the right time to start when people are just exploring all those recreational drugs and
things, but changing the style of an office to make it much more kind of feel like, you know,
it's got fancy furniture and plants and colors and all that kind of stuff. But ultimately it was
still this thing you come in and you've made the space more attractive because, oh, that's the issue
(10:39):
rather than addressing the true issue of, um, uh, productivity, uh, efficiency, effectiveness,
and kind of purposefulness of what we're here to do. So it's not, you don't employ somebody to
be a bum in a seat. You employ them for their mind and what they can bring. And that's, um,
true, actually probably of office workers as well as factory workers as well, I think.
(11:01):
Yeah. And don't forget with all of that, you know, thinking about in the last 50 years or so
and how technologies evolved, you know, the office was then a very, it was essential because
it was a place where, you know, if you're a law firm in the fifties, you have all of your files
in a central location, you know, that, that protects your clients, um, data and make sure that
(11:25):
you, you have that sort of, um, silo around your work. And then as technologies change, you know,
then you get these enormous, um, printers and photocopiers and, you know, you might,
if you're very lucky, have a computer on your desk, but then you were doing faxes and things
like that. Um, and the technology has actually changed quite a lot and very, very rapidly,
(11:48):
you know, we're so lucky that the pandemic actually hit at a time where, you know, there were
things like zoom and teams that were available so that we weren't just all, you know, the world
didn't completely shut down and all productivity end. So it's trying to embrace that, that it's,
we don't necessarily need a single office location for security or for technology,
(12:09):
but there is on the flip side, you know, one of the things about a productivity tool is
you don't, you can't necessarily, but not all companies can necessarily afford the best tool
for the job. You know, so if you think about a technology company where they're, they're hiring
lots of people, not everyone gets a top of the range, um, amazing laptop to use, you know,
(12:33):
if you're someone in sales, maybe you can actually make do with just an iPad or something like that.
So it's, it's making sure that it does work for the people, but also the company, you know,
you can't as a very small company, like we wouldn't be able to afford the Apple headquarters
because no, I'd be very lonely. Um, and echoey, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's trying to just make
(13:00):
sure that you're getting the best tool that you can afford. And there will be some companies where
actually they can't necessarily afford to roll out laptops and secure internet and individual
desk setups and chairs and everything like that for all of their employees. Cause obviously if
you are working remotely, the company still does have a, an obligation to make sure that you're
working in a, um, you know, health and safety efficient way. So in that instance, it might
(13:26):
actually be better for the company to say, look, we just need everyone in the office because it's
an environment we can control and we can't afford for, you know, 30 people for everyone to have
their own laptop, their own desk and their own chair. And just thinking back to the statement
you make about, you know, going back to productivity in a bit more detail, um, the whole point of this
(13:49):
agile methodology and productivity and in dev and things like that is that you make small iterations,
see if that works. You're not dumping a whole load of code or making massive changes,
but the agile thinking around an office is that something that, because there's a lot of
physicality to an office, isn't it? And it's, it's not, it doesn't have that, that flexibility
(14:10):
physically to write this move desk here every single time. So once you're thinking about how
people could approach this in terms of splitting up spaces, you know, a lot of places that the
company I came from previously, we had four or five small little meeting rooms. We had a big boardroom
and we had a podcasting room that I built and then our own individual desks. I had my own
(14:30):
kind of like one of my colleagues called it the glass box of emotion, my office, um,
marketeers for you. Um, it kind of implies that the office needs to maintain that level of
flexibility and agility going forward. What would be, you know, you mentioned small, big, large
businesses, probably easier for them to do because they've got more money to do it, but it's a bigger
(14:53):
job for them to do. So what's your thoughts on, on keeping the office agile? Well, I think the,
the main thing about the agile process, as you said, is making small changes,
um, small iterations, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't, and reiterating over it. And just
so the whole idea is that you're, you've got an idea of what you think you want. You try and
(15:17):
solve that and you very quickly move to see has that worked? If yes, brilliant. Keep going. If not,
okay, we need to adjust. And I think that's the, the, the thing at the moment that
companies tend to not necessarily be doing that well is it say they're trying to solve it all in
(15:41):
one thing and they are just trying to, they're looking at the data that's out there from other
companies, relying on that and saying, right, that's what we're going to do. And that's going
to solve it. So, you know, we're, we're a hundred person company. We want to, we've got another,
we can see there's another a hundred person company that have reduced their desk space to 50%.
So great savings. Yeah. We'll do that. You're like, well, actually that's, that's not necessarily
(16:05):
right for you. You might get lucky brilliant if you, if you can, but, um, try to make small
adjustments and move from that. And then the flexibility will start to sort of bake into that
as you, as you're going, you know, it's, if you can start from, if you're already in this situation
where you can be flexible in your decisions, you're ahead of the game. If you're not, if
(16:28):
you've actually got fixed layouts and fixed desks and stuff, are there some small changes that you
can make to like a team, just start with one team, see what changes you can do there. And if that
works, then start to roll it out to other teams. Um, you know, you'll even find with that, that
what works for one team probably won't for another, um, you know, depends on departments as well.
You know, a technology department and a finance department are very, very different beasts.
(16:52):
So micro-cultures within a business. Exactly. Exactly. So it's just try to start small and
don't bite off more than you can chew and track data, like come up with what you think,
what data will, when you're, before you start the experiment, before you actually say, yes,
let's move these desks, try to get a baseline of what's currently happening and then work out what
(17:17):
data you need to either prove or disprove what you're trying to prove, try to prove or disprove,
um, what you're trying to find out. Um, but then also when you've got that data,
try to think of ways that someone who was against what you're trying to do would use that data to
say, actually, you're wrong because it's in that is trying to flip your mindset of, well,
(17:39):
actually what you've said there is that this is the best setup, but I know from whatever, that
that's not true. And I can see here that this data shows that it's really trying to be like a data
scientist about it and interrogate the data properly. That will then lead to you moving
forwards in a successful way rather than, you know, taking account to your, your biases.
(18:01):
Because ultimately this is to achieve one end really, isn't it? It's about being more effective
and productive and, um, in, in the role that you're doing, regardless of what that role is,
it's in service of that, which all the, the, the kind of the broad thinking right now is that
it's about mindset. It's about productivity. Isn't how many things you can put through,
(18:22):
but how consistent you can be in and being able to roll with the ups and downs that people naturally
have in their lives. Because, you know, one day you come in and you know, this where you come in,
you're super effective. You did 10 things, take them all off your list and feel like you've had
an amazing day. The next day, nothing seems to have changed. You have the same coffee,
did the same walk, went to the gym, but you walk in and you, at the end of the day, you think,
(18:44):
what the hell have I done? So it's trying to create a space that somebody can go,
well, actually, do you know what? This isn't working sitting in my desk doing what I did
yesterday. Isn't working. I'm going to go and sit in that space over there. I'm going to go in.
I want to be super quiet or I'm going to go to the coffee shop or I'm just going to go home.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
(19:05):
What do you think then? I mean, I've been a senior manager in large companies and small companies.
To me, I always wanted to make sure that people brought their best version of themselves on that
day. And it was different every single day because people are unique. For the first level
of somebody who's just starting out and perhaps got a couple of people
(19:26):
from this mindset of using the office as a productivity tool, what advice would you give
to somebody who's at that level and going, not really had any leadership training because
not many companies really do that properly anymore or it's very self-directed. So what
advice would you give them to say, how can I approach this to give that flexibility,
(19:47):
but to still, you know, to use this office as a productivity tool,
but still achieve my ends? What advice would you give somebody in that situation?
So, I mean, that's an enormous question that we could be here for days talking about.
And you're right as well about the majority of managers. I read something recently, which I think
(20:10):
it was something like 80% or 82% of managers haven't had any formal training. And that's
quite astounding when you think that it's the main role of a manager is it's a people role.
It's about getting the best out of your team. And actually the soft skills around management
are so vital, you know, it's, you need to know what works for your people. So, you know, the
(20:36):
best football managers out there, Alex Ferguson, they're saying that he would treat one player in
one way and treat another player completely different way. You know, he knew that if one
of them needed, you know, an arm around the shoulder and it's okay, don't worry. He'd know
that similarly, he'd know that he needs to shout at someone else to get them to actually get up
and get some momentum in what they're doing. Sorry, the door's going to go in a second
(21:00):
because Gabby's just come back and the dogs are going to bark and all this kind of stuff. So
sorry to interrupt. You're on a really good flow there as well, but it would just be spoiled.
So I guess that comes back to the point, John, that you made a little bit earlier then about
is rather than trying to do lots of big things is perhaps try as a first level leader, then
small things, work it out with your team and go, well, let's try this.
(21:23):
If they're able to have that flexibility and do little projects or try little things,
extend little bits of trust and go kind of, well, you try that, you try that or.
Yeah. Yeah. I think involving them in the process, involve your team in the process
and let them know what you're thinking. Because the best way to create friction in a team is
(21:47):
for there to be secrets and for one person to sort of go, this is the way we're going to do things.
Obviously you need to be careful because design by committees also are not necessarily a good
thing. But if you, if you know your people, if you've done simple things, like I was chatting
to someone a couple of years ago where they said that they just didn't know how to get to know
(22:10):
their team as well. The simplest thing you can possibly do is if you see them on a Friday,
ask them what they're doing for the weekend. And then on Monday, remember what they've done and
ask them how it went. And instantly you get more of a relationship. It's, you know, it's,
it has to be that sort of give and take to understand what people are like. And
some people will shy away from that. Some people won't want to tell you,
(22:32):
but you can pretty much find a common, something in common with everyone. And once you've got that,
you can create a relationship and then you know what's, what's going on.
Yeah. And it's the, you know, the company I came from, one of their phrases was leadership is a
choice, not a position. So, you know, and it's about actually enabling others. You, you turn
(22:55):
into a, like a teacher and you try and elevate people above you. So it's putting them at the
middle of that. Of course, you're there to be productive and to be, to deliver on the company
based on the role that you've got and the job that you're trying to do and how that fits within,
you know, the organisation, the structure, the productivity, the factory, if you like.
(23:15):
Um, actually just, um, just to pick up on that, one of the, one of the other things that I think
is going to happen a lot more in the very near future, especially with the generative AI being
so popular is, um, quite often managers don't necessarily understand what the people, what the
(23:36):
role is of the people they manage. And, you know, it's, it's okay if you're, if you're say a senior
developer, looking after a junior developer, there's at least that sort of, there's that
understanding, but quite often if it's, you know, you're just a, you know, someone's dotted lines
into you rather than your direct reports or something like that, there can be a misunderstanding
about the actual role. And if you then don't understand what roles people are doing, then
(24:02):
you don't necessarily understand the tools that they need to do the job. Um, so I've gone into,
um, companies before where, uh, the tools that they were giving me, I was like,
this won't actually allow me to do what you need me to do. It's, you know, you've given me,
you know, a really slow, bad laptop and I'm doing design work. So I won't be able to actually
(24:24):
achieve that. And it was because they didn't understand the role that I was doing. So
there's, you, if you know the people and you understand the roles they're doing and you know
what their personal circumstances are like, then it makes it much easier to pick the right tools
and to understand that, you know, Jeff down the road, Jeff, sorry, Jeff, the intern doesn't have
(24:45):
a good setup at home, doesn't have fast internet because he can't afford it. So saying, well,
we're not going to come into the office and not allowing Jeff to have a desk in the office is
actually really going to affect his productivity. And you'd only know that through that.
I'm talking with them and asking questions, you know, yeah, I want to work at home. Are you set
(25:06):
up? Do you think you're set up to actually do that? And if not, how can we help? Yeah. And
don't forget that. And a lot of times, a lot of times people do hide their personal circumstances
away. You know, you have your work self and your home self and actually you can't, you know, if you
ask the question that might not necessarily lead to getting the answer you want. You need to
(25:30):
be a proper problem solver. You can't just accept the first answer. You need to
keep delving into, you understand the root of what's going on. Yeah. So we've interesting that
you've spoken about the office and you've got any some detail and some thoughts around it as a
productivity tool. So have you got any thoughts then about maybe what the office of the future,
(25:52):
let's fast forward, you know, I'm asking you basically to get your crystal ball out.
Um, what is your, what are your thoughts or maybe even hopes of what the office is going to be in
the future for people? You know, is it going to follow more of the WeWork model where, you know,
you, you don't have a dedicated space for every team, but spaces to do productivity work,
(26:12):
probably in the bigger companies, or is it very much more, it probably stay the same
and actually just your use of it will change rather than having to change the office around
itself. What do you think will be the norms? Um, it's really difficult to, to guess in my,
for me personally, what I would like is, um, almost like touchdown points for when I want to
(26:38):
work in different areas. So if I want to work from home, that's fine. I've got, you know,
certain things I want to do. So that's, that's where I want to be. But if I want to get out
of the house, I want to work with colleagues. I want to see other people. I want to see clients.
I want to have a variety of areas where I can go and work, which you've kind of got with the
(26:58):
co-working space. Um, you know, all of the, WeWorks and Regis and places like that, but
they're also not, the problem that I find with those places is they're not necessarily set up
so that you can walk along and just dump your laptop. And then you've got a good setup is,
you know, I think we're going to end up, if we don't start to change this soon, we're going to
(27:21):
end up with loads of people with back problems because everyone's working off a laptop. And,
you know, you see that when you walk around WeWork, you see everyone hunched over and it's,
it's not good. Um, what I think is actually going to happen is that we're going to have
quite a few years where we're just trying to work this out. You know, the, the people that,
I know some people who at the beginning of, you know, us being released from lockdown,
(27:46):
we're going, I never want to work in the office again. Um, two years on when we're having
conversations, they're, they're lonely. You know, if you're living out in the sticks and you don't
see anyone, um, that he had a young family to begin with. Um, so at the time he was seeing
them a lot. So his decision was, I don't want to work again forever. I don't want to work in an
(28:08):
office again. I'm very happy. He had a great setup at home. Now his kids are growing up and they
walk themselves to school. His wife's gone out for a job. So he's at home alone and he's now
yearning for more interaction with people. Um, so I think the main thing with all of this is to
not get bogged down on this is the way it's going to be. You know, uh, I think there was a great
(28:33):
quote. Um, I know it wasn't Ted Lasso that came up with it, but Ted Lasso on Apple TV, um, had a
whole thing where he embarrasses, uh, his boss's ex-husband, um, where he said, you know, try and
be curious, not judgmental. And I think that's, that's really where we need to be. We need to be
going. How do we just make life a bit better and go from there and don't say things that you can't
(28:57):
take back. Yeah. It hasn't got to be all bells and whistles, has it? It can be as we're, as we're
trying to create within the office is it can just be simple. Yeah. It's fine as it is. You just need
to, it's the way that you approach it. It's allowing people to go. You choose. Yeah. Be
(29:18):
transparent about it. Then everyone knows what to expect and then everything else sort of flows
from that. You don't have them, the mistrust, um, because people are just disappearing and you can't
see where they are if they're working. Um, you know, if you're communicating and everyone knows
what's expected from them, so you know what job roles you're meant to be doing. Um, your manager
(29:39):
knows what's going, what's meant to be happening and you have a good relationship with them,
then everything should become easier. And then you can focus on your actual work and the problems
you're solving there rather than, well, we've got to get people back in the office as the number one
core mandates that we're doing. Because that's what we know. And that's what we think works
because that's what we've based all of our productivity analysis on is everyone in the
(30:02):
office. We don't know how to work out the rest. Yeah. John, thank you very much again. I know
you're a busy chap coding all of our software in the background while I twiddle around and do
coloring in going over the lines every now and then it's the marketing guys. So, um, I appreciate
you, um, uh, allowing me to, uh, uh, share some of your time and give insight into that wonderful
(30:25):
brain of yours and obviously more widely what we're doing with in the office and, um, why we're
doing what we're doing with it. It's been great. Thanks. John and I really hope that you enjoyed
and really got something meaningful from our latest episode of the podcast. If you'd like to
(30:50):
comment or reach out to us, um, and share your thoughts and ideas, we'd love to hear from you.
And of course, if you would like to be a guest and we'd interview on our podcast,
we'd love to have you on to talk about all the challenges that coming back into the office,
the cultural elements, um, as IT HR professionals, office managers, and of course leaders as well.
(31:11):
Please also do like, and subscribe, and then it guarantees you get
our latest podcast in your inbox. Thanks again for listening.
Welcome to in the office cast with John Kent and Adam Scorey, a podcast about business
culture, technology and solving the challenges and misconceptions surrounding hybrid and
remote working. Hi, welcome to another vlog from John and I from in the office. So today's
(00:30):
an interesting one. So it's a bit of a challenge for me this. So John, the office as a productivity
tool. What do you mean? Well, I, my background being in product management is I see things very
much, you know, individual products and users. And that's sort of how I how I quantify things.
(00:55):
And with everything that happened after the pandemic, and, you know, the way that the world
was moving. I felt like people are that there's this way that people are trying to promote the
office as if it's, you know, they're putting it up on a pedestal as if that's something that needs to
be protected, as that's the thing that creates culture within a company, you know, that's the
(01:20):
place where work gets done. And I feel like that puts people down the wrong routes when they're
trying to work out how they're going to, you know, implement a hybrid working policy or how they what
they need the decisions they may need to make about the future of the office is if you're, if
you've got a skewed view of it, as if that's the thing that does stuff, then you're not going to
(01:43):
make the right decision. So something that I bang on about a lot is that the office isn't something
that creates culture, it doesn't do anything, you know, it requires its users in order to be
valuable. So, you know, an office block that's just sat there, doesn't do anything, it's just
it's just a cost center, isn't it? It's just creating a drain on the company's resources,
(02:06):
it requires its users, its people to actually use it in order to be valuable. So if you start to
think of it as it's a productivity tool, that I found that very useful to then go well, actually,
what do you need from a productivity tool? And actually, I don't think this is just limited to
offices, it's really your workspace. You know, whether that's in the office, whether it's at
(02:29):
home, whether it's at a coffee shop, it doesn't really matter. It's, is your workspace the right
tool for you to be using for that job? It's interesting, actually, because, I mean, we
worked started in something like, what was it, 1995? I think, sort of the research that I did,
and obviously, from that point of view, they were well ahead of the pandemic, well ahead of this
(02:53):
thinking now that as a productivity tool, because I've, you know, we work from a WeWork office,
don't we? When we're together, and they're split into zones of activity or zones of productivity,
and that perhaps the way that you're thinking about it, and they are set for a purpose. Now,
what intrigues me about this is, is that's fine, when you've got, you know, 5000 people in a 25
(03:17):
storey office block or something, but, but what you're thinking then for, say, you know, there's
10 people in a company, and they've got one small office space, how, is this about mindset, rather
than is about desks and computers? I think it's a, it's sort of a mixture. And actually, you reminded
me of something they're talking about WeWork and when they started. And this was something that
(03:40):
was quite big before the pandemic, where facilities managers and leaders were trying to work out agile
workspaces. So they've sort of looked at the way that software is being developed. So I mean, quite
a lot of these things do go back to software methodologies. So it used to be that you build
stuff in a waterfall way where you basically you get all of the requirements that you need to build
(04:03):
right up front, you then go away for a year, you build the thing. And then at the end of the year,
as you go off the waterfall, you deliver it. And usually what would happen is you turn out that
you got some requirements wrong at the start. So what is then what you get in the end is rubbish.
So they then tried to shorten that down and do more agile workflows where you do shorter stints
(04:26):
of or they're called sprints of working. And you it's really oversimplifying it, but it's basically
you do the things that you need to in order to get the thing out. So it's, you know, you build
quickly, you release it so people can check it, you then get feedback, and then you rebuild it.
And that moved into the workspace area. So it was how do you create an agile workspace where people
(04:50):
can go and work in the right place for the mood that they were in or for the work they were doing.
And that's sort of where I think a lot of WeWork's ideas came from. I do remember
someone saying that they had a meeting room in a room full of swings, which was just, no one
had a good comment to say about that slide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, you know, so you'd
(05:18):
shuffle in and then sit on the swing. And then I can't imagine, you know, the I don't know if the
swings moved, I imagine they did. But anyway, you know, you can obviously go too far with these things.
But yeah, that's, that's sort of where that idea came from. And it's company started to
well, some companies were starting to implement it before the pandemic. Now we're back. And,
(05:43):
you know, there is that. Is it a mindset shift? It's I guess it's just trying to go.
What actually do you need? And it's not just I think about what one person needs. So for me,
the there are three key elements to what makes up the best place for someone to work. And that's
the task that they're doing. So the job that they're actually doing, the requirements of their
(06:08):
team, you know, and that's not just their immediate team, it could be the wider team,
the wider company, and also their personal circumstances. And I sort of see it as a Venn
diagram where there's this really nice little intersection between those three things, which
dictates where the best place for that person to work each day is. And so, you know, what tool
(06:31):
is the best tool for them to use in order to be productive? So it might be that it's the office,
it might be that actually, the team requires everyone to be together. Or it might be that
actually, if you're doing software, for example, and you've had some planning sessions, you could
then go away for two weeks and work somewhere else completely away, siloed away, you know,
some slack communications all you need. And that actually works really well for you because you can
(06:54):
get into it. Or similarly, if your personal circumstances are that, you know, you're,
you only live in a studio apartment and you've got a dog and, you know, or a young child or
something like that, then you can't work from home. So you need to be in the office. So it's,
it's trying to make sure that everyone gets what they need. And everyone has the right,
(07:16):
the right tool to do their job. So do you think the time of having a desk, if you like, you know,
people will say that's my desk, you know, and put all my personal things on it and all my
filing and all this kind of stuff. Do you think the time for that has gone?
Um, I'm going to be the typical sort of a non-answer. It depends. So, you know,
(07:39):
it completely depends on, on, on the company and the person. So, you know, if that's something that
the company can afford, if they can afford for everyone to have their own desk, brilliant.
Let's, you know, and people use it. That's great. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with
that. But similarly, if you're someone that actually, you know, you're very happy working
from home, you might have those things at your own desk, but then you go into the office just to
(08:03):
make sure that you sit for the day next to some people or sit away from people if you want to,
um, you know, it's really, it's, it's not a one size fits all. It's a, you know, as I said,
depending on the tasks that you're doing, you want to have the right, the right tool for the
job. You wouldn't, um, and I've mentioned this to you before, but you wouldn't dig a hole with a
(08:24):
hammer. You know, you want to get a spade. You want, you want to have the right tool for the
job that you're doing. Um, and actually I think that's, that is one of the things which everything
that you see on LinkedIn goes against that. Everyone's still talking about return to work
mandates. You know, the, the big, big companies are still saying you've got to come back. People
(08:46):
are even throwing in, you know, it's unfair for people, for others, if some section of their
workforce can work from home and that others can work for something else. We were talking about
that last night, weren't we? With the L'Oreal chapter. It's unfair to blue collar workers,
I believe, you know, he's paid, what is it? 10 and a half million euros a year or something.
Yeah. L'Oreal too. Yeah.
(09:08):
Well, exactly. And it's, but it's also like the fairness doesn't come into it. It's,
is that the right tool? So, you know, if you, if you hire a bus driver or someone that drives a
lorry, you can't go, well, you've got to be in the office because his workspace, his tool of the
trade is a lorry. You wouldn't, you'd want to make sure that they have the right size for the job
(09:28):
that they're doing. You know, it's, it, there is too much emphasis on the office as a thing that
needs to be protected. Yeah. When I wrote about this in one of the blogs that, um, uh, just before
Christmas, actually about the whole paradigm is a 500 year old paradigm in the office. And it's
gone through various different iterations of how it's used, you know, from the Victorians kind of
(09:53):
workhouses. And you have 500 people in the space and they're just banging stuff out and you have
people kind of making sure that they're there. And, you know, I think I was reading something
even this morning talking about how it was, um, I think it was Spain that introduced a much shorter
day for, for, um, machine workers and factory workers and stuff like that. And it's sort of
changed, but ultimately it stayed the same thing. It's tried to mold it in slightly different ways
(10:16):
when, um, I think in the sixties, they, you know, this imagine the sixties, you know,
would be the right time to start when people are just exploring all those recreational drugs and
things, but changing the style of an office to make it much more kind of feel like, you know,
it's got fancy furniture and plants and colors and all that kind of stuff. But ultimately it was
still this thing you come in and you've made the space more attractive because, oh, that's the issue
(10:39):
rather than addressing the true issue of, um, uh, productivity, uh, efficiency, effectiveness,
and kind of purposefulness of what we're here to do. So it's not, you don't employ somebody to
be a bum in a seat. You employ them for their mind and what they can bring. And that's, um,
true, actually probably of office workers as well as factory workers as well, I think.
(11:01):
Yeah. And don't forget with all of that, you know, thinking about in the last 50 years or so
and how technologies evolved, you know, the office was then a very, it was essential because
it was a place where, you know, if you're a law firm in the fifties, you have all of your files
in a central location, you know, that, that protects your clients, um, data and make sure that
(11:25):
you, you have that sort of, um, silo around your work. And then as technologies change, you know,
then you get these enormous, um, printers and photocopiers and, you know, you might,
if you're very lucky, have a computer on your desk, but then you were doing faxes and things
like that. Um, and the technology has actually changed quite a lot and very, very rapidly,
(11:48):
you know, we're so lucky that the pandemic actually hit at a time where, you know, there were
things like zoom and teams that were available so that we weren't just all, you know, the world
didn't completely shut down and all productivity end. So it's trying to embrace that, that it's,
we don't necessarily need a single office location for security or for technology,
(12:09):
but there is on the flip side, you know, one of the things about a productivity tool is
you don't, you can't necessarily, but not all companies can necessarily afford the best tool
for the job. You know, so if you think about a technology company where they're, they're hiring
lots of people, not everyone gets a top of the range, um, amazing laptop to use, you know,
(12:33):
if you're someone in sales, maybe you can actually make do with just an iPad or something like that.
So it's, it's making sure that it does work for the people, but also the company, you know,
you can't as a very small company, like we wouldn't be able to afford the Apple headquarters
because no, I'd be very lonely. Um, and echoey, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's trying to just make
(13:00):
sure that you're getting the best tool that you can afford. And there will be some companies where
actually they can't necessarily afford to roll out laptops and secure internet and individual
desk setups and chairs and everything like that for all of their employees. Cause obviously if
you are working remotely, the company still does have a, an obligation to make sure that you're
working in a, um, you know, health and safety efficient way. So in that instance, it might
(13:26):
actually be better for the company to say, look, we just need everyone in the office because it's
an environment we can control and we can't afford for, you know, 30 people for everyone to have
their own laptop, their own desk and their own chair. And just thinking back to the statement
you make about, you know, going back to productivity in a bit more detail, um, the whole point of this
(13:49):
agile methodology and productivity and in dev and things like that is that you make small iterations,
see if that works. You're not dumping a whole load of code or making massive changes,
but the agile thinking around an office is that something that, because there's a lot of
physicality to an office, isn't it? And it's, it's not, it doesn't have that, that flexibility
(14:10):
physically to write this move desk here every single time. So once you're thinking about how
people could approach this in terms of splitting up spaces, you know, a lot of places that the
company I came from previously, we had four or five small little meeting rooms. We had a big boardroom
and we had a podcasting room that I built and then our own individual desks. I had my own
(14:30):
kind of like one of my colleagues called it the glass box of emotion, my office, um,
marketeers for you. Um, it kind of implies that the office needs to maintain that level of
flexibility and agility going forward. What would be, you know, you mentioned small, big, large
businesses, probably easier for them to do because they've got more money to do it, but it's a bigger
(14:53):
job for them to do. So what's your thoughts on, on keeping the office agile? Well, I think the,
the main thing about the agile process, as you said, is making small changes,
um, small iterations, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't, and reiterating over it. And just
so the whole idea is that you're, you've got an idea of what you think you want. You try and
(15:17):
solve that and you very quickly move to see has that worked? If yes, brilliant. Keep going. If not,
okay, we need to adjust. And I think that's the, the, the thing at the moment that
companies tend to not necessarily be doing that well is it say they're trying to solve it all in
(15:41):
one thing and they are just trying to, they're looking at the data that's out there from other
companies, relying on that and saying, right, that's what we're going to do. And that's going
to solve it. So, you know, we're, we're a hundred person company. We want to, we've got another,
we can see there's another a hundred person company that have reduced their desk space to 50%.
So great savings. Yeah. We'll do that. You're like, well, actually that's, that's not necessarily
(16:05):
right for you. You might get lucky brilliant if you, if you can, but, um, try to make small
adjustments and move from that. And then the flexibility will start to sort of bake into that
as you, as you're going, you know, it's, if you can start from, if you're already in this situation
where you can be flexible in your decisions, you're ahead of the game. If you're not, if
(16:28):
you've actually got fixed layouts and fixed desks and stuff, are there some small changes that you
can make to like a team, just start with one team, see what changes you can do there. And if that
works, then start to roll it out to other teams. Um, you know, you'll even find with that, that
what works for one team probably won't for another, um, you know, depends on departments as well.
You know, a technology department and a finance department are very, very different beasts.
(16:52):
So micro-cultures within a business. Exactly. Exactly. So it's just try to start small and
don't bite off more than you can chew and track data, like come up with what you think,
what data will, when you're, before you start the experiment, before you actually say, yes,
let's move these desks, try to get a baseline of what's currently happening and then work out what
(17:17):
data you need to either prove or disprove what you're trying to prove, try to prove or disprove,
um, what you're trying to find out. Um, but then also when you've got that data,
try to think of ways that someone who was against what you're trying to do would use that data to
say, actually, you're wrong because it's in that is trying to flip your mindset of, well,
(17:39):
actually what you've said there is that this is the best setup, but I know from whatever, that
that's not true. And I can see here that this data shows that it's really trying to be like a data
scientist about it and interrogate the data properly. That will then lead to you moving
forwards in a successful way rather than, you know, taking account to your, your biases.
(18:01):
Because ultimately this is to achieve one end really, isn't it? It's about being more effective
and productive and, um, in, in the role that you're doing, regardless of what that role is,
it's in service of that, which all the, the, the kind of the broad thinking right now is that
it's about mindset. It's about productivity. Isn't how many things you can put through,
(18:22):
but how consistent you can be in and being able to roll with the ups and downs that people naturally
have in their lives. Because, you know, one day you come in and you know, this where you come in,
you're super effective. You did 10 things, take them all off your list and feel like you've had
an amazing day. The next day, nothing seems to have changed. You have the same coffee,
did the same walk, went to the gym, but you walk in and you, at the end of the day, you think,
(18:44):
what the hell have I done? So it's trying to create a space that somebody can go,
well, actually, do you know what? This isn't working sitting in my desk doing what I did
yesterday. Isn't working. I'm going to go and sit in that space over there. I'm going to go in.
I want to be super quiet or I'm going to go to the coffee shop or I'm just going to go home.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
(19:05):
What do you think then? I mean, I've been a senior manager in large companies and small companies.
To me, I always wanted to make sure that people brought their best version of themselves on that
day. And it was different every single day because people are unique. For the first level
of somebody who's just starting out and perhaps got a couple of people
(19:26):
from this mindset of using the office as a productivity tool, what advice would you give
to somebody who's at that level and going, not really had any leadership training because
not many companies really do that properly anymore or it's very self-directed. So what
advice would you give them to say, how can I approach this to give that flexibility,
(19:47):
but to still, you know, to use this office as a productivity tool,
but still achieve my ends? What advice would you give somebody in that situation?
So, I mean, that's an enormous question that we could be here for days talking about.
And you're right as well about the majority of managers. I read something recently, which I think
(20:10):
it was something like 80% or 82% of managers haven't had any formal training. And that's
quite astounding when you think that it's the main role of a manager is it's a people role.
It's about getting the best out of your team. And actually the soft skills around management
are so vital, you know, it's, you need to know what works for your people. So, you know, the
(20:36):
best football managers out there, Alex Ferguson, they're saying that he would treat one player in
one way and treat another player completely different way. You know, he knew that if one
of them needed, you know, an arm around the shoulder and it's okay, don't worry. He'd know
that similarly, he'd know that he needs to shout at someone else to get them to actually get up
and get some momentum in what they're doing. Sorry, the door's going to go in a second
(21:00):
because Gabby's just come back and the dogs are going to bark and all this kind of stuff. So
sorry to interrupt. You're on a really good flow there as well, but it would just be spoiled.
So I guess that comes back to the point, John, that you made a little bit earlier then about
is rather than trying to do lots of big things is perhaps try as a first level leader, then
small things, work it out with your team and go, well, let's try this.
(21:23):
If they're able to have that flexibility and do little projects or try little things,
extend little bits of trust and go kind of, well, you try that, you try that or.
Yeah. Yeah. I think involving them in the process, involve your team in the process
and let them know what you're thinking. Because the best way to create friction in a team is
(21:47):
for there to be secrets and for one person to sort of go, this is the way we're going to do things.
Obviously you need to be careful because design by committees also are not necessarily a good
thing. But if you, if you know your people, if you've done simple things, like I was chatting
to someone a couple of years ago where they said that they just didn't know how to get to know
(22:10):
their team as well. The simplest thing you can possibly do is if you see them on a Friday,
ask them what they're doing for the weekend. And then on Monday, remember what they've done and
ask them how it went. And instantly you get more of a relationship. It's, you know, it's,
it has to be that sort of give and take to understand what people are like. And
some people will shy away from that. Some people won't want to tell you,
(22:32):
but you can pretty much find a common, something in common with everyone. And once you've got that,
you can create a relationship and then you know what's, what's going on.
Yeah. And it's the, you know, the company I came from, one of their phrases was leadership is a
choice, not a position. So, you know, and it's about actually enabling others. You, you turn
(22:55):
into a, like a teacher and you try and elevate people above you. So it's putting them at the
middle of that. Of course, you're there to be productive and to be, to deliver on the company
based on the role that you've got and the job that you're trying to do and how that fits within,
you know, the organisation, the structure, the productivity, the factory, if you like.
(23:15):
Um, actually just, um, just to pick up on that, one of the, one of the other things that I think
is going to happen a lot more in the very near future, especially with the generative AI being
so popular is, um, quite often managers don't necessarily understand what the people, what the
(23:36):
role is of the people they manage. And, you know, it's, it's okay if you're, if you're say a senior
developer, looking after a junior developer, there's at least that sort of, there's that
understanding, but quite often if it's, you know, you're just a, you know, someone's dotted lines
into you rather than your direct reports or something like that, there can be a misunderstanding
about the actual role. And if you then don't understand what roles people are doing, then
(24:02):
you don't necessarily understand the tools that they need to do the job. Um, so I've gone into,
um, companies before where, uh, the tools that they were giving me, I was like,
this won't actually allow me to do what you need me to do. It's, you know, you've given me,
you know, a really slow, bad laptop and I'm doing design work. So I won't be able to actually
(24:24):
achieve that. And it was because they didn't understand the role that I was doing. So
there's, you, if you know the people and you understand the roles they're doing and you know
what their personal circumstances are like, then it makes it much easier to pick the right tools
and to understand that, you know, Jeff down the road, Jeff, sorry, Jeff, the intern doesn't have
(24:45):
a good setup at home, doesn't have fast internet because he can't afford it. So saying, well,
we're not going to come into the office and not allowing Jeff to have a desk in the office is
actually really going to affect his productivity. And you'd only know that through that.
I'm talking with them and asking questions, you know, yeah, I want to work at home. Are you set
(25:06):
up? Do you think you're set up to actually do that? And if not, how can we help? Yeah. And
don't forget that. And a lot of times, a lot of times people do hide their personal circumstances
away. You know, you have your work self and your home self and actually you can't, you know, if you
ask the question that might not necessarily lead to getting the answer you want. You need to
(25:30):
be a proper problem solver. You can't just accept the first answer. You need to
keep delving into, you understand the root of what's going on. Yeah. So we've interesting that
you've spoken about the office and you've got any some detail and some thoughts around it as a
productivity tool. So have you got any thoughts then about maybe what the office of the future,
(25:52):
let's fast forward, you know, I'm asking you basically to get your crystal ball out.
Um, what is your, what are your thoughts or maybe even hopes of what the office is going to be in
the future for people? You know, is it going to follow more of the WeWork model where, you know,
you, you don't have a dedicated space for every team, but spaces to do productivity work,
(26:12):
probably in the bigger companies, or is it very much more, it probably stay the same
and actually just your use of it will change rather than having to change the office around
itself. What do you think will be the norms? Um, it's really difficult to, to guess in my,
for me personally, what I would like is, um, almost like touchdown points for when I want to
(26:38):
work in different areas. So if I want to work from home, that's fine. I've got, you know,
certain things I want to do. So that's, that's where I want to be. But if I want to get out
of the house, I want to work with colleagues. I want to see other people. I want to see clients.
I want to have a variety of areas where I can go and work, which you've kind of got with the
(26:58):
co-working space. Um, you know, all of the, WeWorks and Regis and places like that, but
they're also not, the problem that I find with those places is they're not necessarily set up
so that you can walk along and just dump your laptop. And then you've got a good setup is,
you know, I think we're going to end up, if we don't start to change this soon, we're going to
(27:21):
end up with loads of people with back problems because everyone's working off a laptop. And,
you know, you see that when you walk around WeWork, you see everyone hunched over and it's,
it's not good. Um, what I think is actually going to happen is that we're going to have
quite a few years where we're just trying to work this out. You know, the, the people that,
I know some people who at the beginning of, you know, us being released from lockdown,
(27:46):
we're going, I never want to work in the office again. Um, two years on when we're having
conversations, they're, they're lonely. You know, if you're living out in the sticks and you don't
see anyone, um, that he had a young family to begin with. Um, so at the time he was seeing
them a lot. So his decision was, I don't want to work again forever. I don't want to work in an
(28:08):
office again. I'm very happy. He had a great setup at home. Now his kids are growing up and they
walk themselves to school. His wife's gone out for a job. So he's at home alone and he's now
yearning for more interaction with people. Um, so I think the main thing with all of this is to
not get bogged down on this is the way it's going to be. You know, uh, I think there was a great
(28:33):
quote. Um, I know it wasn't Ted Lasso that came up with it, but Ted Lasso on Apple TV, um, had a
whole thing where he embarrasses, uh, his boss's ex-husband, um, where he said, you know, try and
be curious, not judgmental. And I think that's, that's really where we need to be. We need to be
going. How do we just make life a bit better and go from there and don't say things that you can't
(28:57):
take back. Yeah. It hasn't got to be all bells and whistles, has it? It can be as we're, as we're
trying to create within the office is it can just be simple. Yeah. It's fine as it is. You just need
to, it's the way that you approach it. It's allowing people to go. You choose. Yeah. Be
(29:18):
transparent about it. Then everyone knows what to expect and then everything else sort of flows
from that. You don't have them, the mistrust, um, because people are just disappearing and you can't
see where they are if they're working. Um, you know, if you're communicating and everyone knows
what's expected from them, so you know what job roles you're meant to be doing. Um, your manager
(29:39):
knows what's going, what's meant to be happening and you have a good relationship with them,
then everything should become easier. And then you can focus on your actual work and the problems
you're solving there rather than, well, we've got to get people back in the office as the number one
core mandates that we're doing. Because that's what we know. And that's what we think works
because that's what we've based all of our productivity analysis on is everyone in the
(30:02):
office. We don't know how to work out the rest. Yeah. John, thank you very much again. I know
you're a busy chap coding all of our software in the background while I twiddle around and do
coloring in going over the lines every now and then it's the marketing guys. So, um, I appreciate
you, um, uh, allowing me to, uh, uh, share some of your time and give insight into that wonderful
(30:25):
brain of yours and obviously more widely what we're doing with in the office and, um, why we're
doing what we're doing with it. It's been great. Thanks. John and I really hope that you enjoyed
and really got something meaningful from our latest episode of the podcast. If you'd like to
(30:50):
comment or reach out to us, um, and share your thoughts and ideas, we'd love to hear from you.
And of course, if you would like to be a guest and we'd interview on our podcast,
we'd love to have you on to talk about all the challenges that coming back into the office,
the cultural elements, um, as IT HR professionals, office managers, and of course leaders as well.
(31:11):
Please also do like, and subscribe, and then it guarantees you get
our latest podcast in your inbox. Thanks again for listening.
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