EP7: CoolAnt: Nature-Inspired Cooling Solutions for a Sustainable Future

Monish from Coolant discusses the work of the startup company in enhancing cooling and air conditioning using natural materials. The company aims to bring back the basics of passive design and make it accessible to the masses. They draw inspiration from nature and traditional architecture to create climate-responsive buildings. Coolant believes in open-source solutions and making their designs public to contribute to the greater good. The challenges they face include the need for patience and a long-term vision, as well as the balance between profitability and environmental impact.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
All right, good morning, everyone.
Welcome to the show.
Today we have a very special guest, Monishfrom Coolant.
Coolant is a startup company in Indiaworking with all sorts of fascinating ways
to enhance cooling and air conditioningand all these different ways of building

(00:23):
with natural materials.
And I think I probably came across themwhen I was living in India, running my own
startup.
And I was always in the back of my mind, Iwas always like, this is the best startup
in India, by far, just with the technologythey're using.
What really fascinates me about this isthat it is truly a beautiful marriage of

(00:45):
ancient inspiration with modern techniquesinvolved with it.
So Manish.
Thank you for being on the show today andwelcome.
Thank you, Justin, for the kindintroduction.
I'm really happy to be on the show anddiscuss about the work that we guys are

(01:08):
doing.
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about just,you know, what's your background?
And because, I mean, when I look at theseprojects, it's like it's physics, it's
environmental science, it's design andartistry.
And it really touches so many, you know,history, it touches all these different

(01:32):
things.
And so tell us a little bit about yourbackground and kind of the origin story of
Kool-Aand.
I'm an architect by training, but I have akeen interest on technology, computational
design and natural materials.

(01:55):
That has been my go-to thing ever since Istarted this practice.
The whole idea has been that ever sincethis ant came up...
I wanted to make this a place that is muchmore than a built environment and to see
how we can bring in different aspects ofthe habitat through research, through art

(02:20):
and engineering.
But most importantly, like I said,research plays a very important role in
the whole process.
We are trying to see how we caninvestigate.
Some of the things that we all rather...
you know, assume or take it for granted,saying that, okay, now, let's say, for

(02:40):
instance, everybody is making buildingsand making air conditioners, you know, so
why should we do that or something liketrying to question the basics and see how
we can find rather simple solutions,nothing too complicated so that much
larger people can use it.
So that's, yeah, I mean, that's has beenthe idea and the thought process behind
the practice.
Okay, perfect.

(03:01):
And I wanna come back to that idea ofsimplicity later, but just go ahead and
tell us, like what is just the very basicunderstanding or explanation of Coolant
and some of the core technologies thatyou're working with?
So, you know, the whole idea behind Kooland is that when we talk about passive

(03:26):
design, and we talk about ideas liketraditional architecture, as we call it,
or the vernacular, it is no more socommon.
I mean, what we call as used to be theancient techniques and all what you call
as the common sense or the common sciencerather, both you can put it with the same
way, the common science or the commonsense.

(03:46):
It's not so common anymore.
It's people like have forgotten the basicsof the construction, the basics of why
even we need to have windows, as simple asthat.
I mean people now like in windows aremostly meant for light and also
ventilation.
Now when you look at most of the currentday buildings, you know, you focus only on

(04:07):
the light and the view but not theventilation.
It's as simple as that, right.
So when you talk about this, so our ideahas been that with Coolant, how do we
communicate the
the basic essence, I mean, it's all aboutlike the basics of passive design, simply
like the logic behind making goodbuildings to the masses.
And how can we take this through as astartup, as an idea, and how can we scale

(04:30):
this?
Because when we talk about passive, and wetalk about even architecture, it's always
looked at as a service.
It's not something that it's not theservice is always not scalable or as a
business.
product, right.
And also, like most of the architecturalpractices that close the globe, I'm not

(04:52):
talking about just in India, I'm talkingabout good average size successful firms
practices can reach up to 300 to 400people in a lifetime.
300 to 400 if you're successful.
And much larger companies who are highlysuccessful, like let's say you talk about

(05:12):
larger organizations, probably they can goup to a thousand projects.
But that's not the right numbers that weare looking at when you talk about the
population and the amount of need that isthere for good design.
So we thought probably with Coolant,that's also an opportunity for us to break
this and take the certain aspects of thedesign and especially around passive to

(05:35):
masses.
And for that, we also need to startlooking at a different kind of a business
model.
Probably we need to start looking at howthis practice and the whole thing as a
product.
I'm not talking about product.
I mean, not just the product of Coolant.
What we do, I'm talking about the wholeservice as a product.
How can you?

(05:56):
take these solutions to masses and makepeople like much larger, thousands of
people like start using it.
So the whole idea behind Coolant is also,like I said, we have two verticals, one is
Ant, which is an architecture practice,but with Coolant, the idea is that how can
you break this stereotypical notion of apractice and how can we reach the masses
with the right solutions and help themimplement these sustainable and passive

(06:23):
solutions in buildings.
And so when you say passive, right?
I mean, when I first found Coolant, and Imean, this was, I think maybe about five
or six years ago, right when you guys werefirst starting, I also just noticed, you
guys clearly just went through a rebrandrecently, which we can talk about that.
It's fantastic.
But I remember the original website, andthe original like first iterations were

(06:49):
very much based on passive cooling and howto cool areas,
with things like terracotta.
And so you're using these naturalmaterials such as terracotta, and then
you're working with water but you'retaking inspiration from beehive structures
and other natural structures.

(07:11):
And so kind of walk us through like, youknow what was the first iteration?
Was ants a part of that or was it more ofbees and ant was kind of the cool name
that came up and obviously ants are very
inspirational in so many ways, but tell usabout that a little bit.
No, I think thank you for actuallypointing that out.

(07:34):
Yeah, we definitely did rebranding.
That's because the original website, whatwe had is a lot of text.
And we always went about wanting to preachand talk to people about information.
But what we heard, the feedback that wegot is that it's too much text and a lot
of things that you want to say.

(07:54):
And we got the feedback that we got isthat
it should be more visual so that peoplecan connect really quick and make it very
user friendly.
So now the content is still the same.
There's no change in the content, but wetried to make it more presentable, more
visual rather and less text.
So that has been the story behind thebranding.

(08:16):
But when it comes to the Ant, yes, Antfirst always, it is Ant.
And
And the inspiration behind Ant is thatthey are the best builders in nature.
They stand for a lot of fantastic things.
Collective intelligence, which Ipersonally believe in quite a bit, that
it's not, we are not living in the worldof one man practice or a show anymore.

(08:40):
It's all collaborative.
Everything that we do, everything that wesee is all...
comes from a lot of beautiful peoplecoming together and working together to
create some magic.
So ants kind of, you know, they resemblethat in a true sense.
The whole concept of teamwork, hard work,intelligence, and yeah, and best builders,

(09:01):
like, you know, they work with clay.
So that's how the ant actually came up,this one.
And then art nature technology, so like,you know, this, but I would say that ant
first.
this one and the Behive is a product.
Yeah, and Behive and then we now we createa lot of products and we use this all
nature inspired designs and also hence thenames that follow like ether.

(09:24):
We have a product called Coral, Cacti.
So these are different products and wetake inspiration from the nature for those
products.
So yeah.
Okay.
And so with...
Let's see, I mean, so with these differentnature-inspired products, I mean, are you

(09:49):
typically finding that, I mean, thedifference in the structures that these
animals build is actually genuinelybetter, and then that they're working
vastly different?
Like, you guys have one that I think issuper cool, which is based on the
pangolin, which many people might notknow.

(10:13):
technology but it's also bringingawareness you know the pangolin is being
hunted to extinction in Africa primarilyfor this high demand of exotic medicines
in China and so you've built out thisreally cool pangolin type of passive

(10:34):
cooling or little piece do you find thatthey all work
like just based on the geometry that'sused and the inspiration that they have a
different output that they create.
Yeah, so it all depends on the project,Justin.
So I'll tell you, I mean, for instance, ifI talk about the pangolin, the purpose

(10:57):
behind the installation is, like I said,it's while I think the form is one thing,
but we wanted to create an awareness aboutpangolins.
So the main, the inspiration behind theform is also to create that awareness.
That itself is a function of it.
It's not just the form, because that'swhen the COVID also just started and
there'll be heard stories about pangolinand the meat and how.

(11:18):
it is they're facing an extension, right?
And whereas when you talk about the beehive, where the idea is not just about the
hive as the form, but also using the hiveas the inspiration behind how bees
effectively increase the surface area forstoring the honey.
So we wanted to use that as an inspirationto increase the efficiency of the water

(11:41):
and the evaporation.
And the same is the case with, we havedone another installation called the
cacti.
Now, cacti are beautifully resilient inextremely harsh climates, and they live on
very little resources in deserts.
So we thought that's a beautifulinspiration to actually come up with a
form and the product that can.

(12:04):
talk about cooling because when you talkabout cooling, water is also a very
important resource.
So how terracotta can help in reducing thewater consumption.
And so that's where the idea behind thecharacter came up, because that's, so the
idea is that in different cases, we drawinspiration from the form, from the
function, from like the performance andsometimes even how it's not, it's beyond

(12:27):
the form and the function.
Sometimes it also goes to see how thingswork as an ecosystem.
For instance, when you talk aboutnature-based solutions, it's not just
about biomimicry for the form, but you'retalking about how these forests and
everything keep the air and everythingpure in nature.

(12:48):
They have a mechanism to keep takingcarbon dioxide and releasing oxygen.
It's a beautiful thing in itself.
So how do you take that as an inspirationto create products with nature-based
solutions wherein you're replicating thesame thing?
which is manmade, but drawing inspirationfrom how nature behaves.
So that's the idea behind.

(13:08):
So it's not always just the form.
It's not always function, but depends onthe product that we're working in and how
we take it.
And another thing I'll just tell you, Imean, in nature is such an amazing, in a
mystery, simple things.
I'll just, I mean, something, these arethings that we as humans, we only are
trying to understand the behavior.
We don't even need to know the reason whythings are a certain way.

(13:31):
like we know that magnetic forces, we knowthat magnetism exists and the gravity
exists, but what's causing the gravity,the mass and there's all equations around
it, but it's still a magical force that isconnecting things together, that's nature.
Now if you look at basic thing like ifyou're wearing black right now and I'm
wearing white, so you are in a coldclimate, I can see that, like you know

(13:52):
you're wearing still like warm clothes andblack absorbs heat and white reflects, I'm
currently at peak, the summers are
hitting quite crazy in Delhi.
So just the color of the surface even atthe same material changes the dynamics of
how rate the heat is retained orreflected.

(14:12):
So for me that itself is a beautiful youknow the magical way in itself how nature
behaves.
The same surface, the same fabric if Ichange the color of this it changes the
thermal properties of it completely.
against absorption and reflection.
So, and that's the, you know, we both aretalking and we can see, that's what I'm

(14:37):
saying, you know.
So there are a lot of things about nature,how things work, and it's just a matter of
how to observe in nature how things areworking.
And because nature has survived formillions of years and it has evolved.
And how do we learn from the naturalphenomena and try to use it in the design?
So that has been the thought process allthe, yeah, in the work.
Definitely.

(14:58):
And do you, I mean, I think this is one ofthe most important and beautiful points to
make.
And I think that's what, what actually
Well, you know, I would say worries mewhat one of the things that worries me the
most is that most climate solutions beingproposed by startups and governments and

(15:19):
organizations are very reductionistic intheir approach, right?
They're always looking at just onesymptom, whether that, you know, now the
big symptom everyone's obsessed with iscarbon, but then, then all of a sudden
they'll move to wait, no biodiversity.
And they, they bounce around becausethey're so
topic and how they view the world versusviewing nature as this great mystery that

(15:45):
can teach us without having to necessarilycompletely understand it, but as an
inspiration point.
I mean, it's to me, cool ant is one of thefew that is really doing that.
I mean, when you look around at a lot ofclimate solutions, do you, do you see a
lot of, um, just like reductionistthinking and not

(16:09):
not a really holistic nature-basedsolution approach a lot of times.
Yeah, I mean, I can say that...
Maybe yes and no at the same time, becauseI can see some of the startups like really
picking things from nature, but then atthe end of the day, when you talk about

(16:31):
businesses, I think the business mindsetis more about what really sells and what
works for the sales.
And nature-based solutions are typicallyslower in growth process.
So what really happens is that when I seenature-based solutions, I think one thing
that one needs to have is patience, andwhich most of the startups and these

(16:55):
things, these people do not have becausethey want quick returns, and that's how
businesses work.
And that's one of the reasons probably whywe don't see a lot of nature-based
solutions, but there are a few who aretrying to do it.
And like I said, but the biggest challengein nature-based solutions is that one
needs to have the patience and the visionfor the long term, trying to be at it for

(17:15):
long term,
If I propose that I'm going to makesomething which is nature-based or a,
let's say, a moss-based purification toweror any of those thoughts, it's not
something I can give you until the mosswill start growing next day.
When even the both the customer and alsothe person who's serving it, they need to
have that mindset that this will work overa certain period of time.

(17:36):
You know, it takes time for the nature togrow on this one.
So these are probably one of the majorchallenges in nature-based solutions that
I can see, or this one, which is why mostof the startups and the companies that are
coming who are in the rush for a quickoutcome, they don't go for it.

(17:57):
Yeah, I would say that probably that's abig factor in design, right?
Because customers want a quick turnaroundperiod for the products.
Yeah, and you have all the pressures andconstraints of trying to scale something
or bring it up, but it does create a shortterm thinking.
And so let's kind of let's move into thisdirection for a minute because and then I

(18:22):
want to come back to the technology itselfbecause you actually you mentioned earlier
this idea of collective intelligence andthat type of thing, which to me, I'm a
very big.
I do think in.
the future we need to move more and more,not in the future, now we need to move
more and more into open source ideas.

(18:45):
And I just saw that you guys were on SharkTank India.
And for those listening who don't know,you know, Shark Tank is in the US probably
in like season 20 or 30.
It's been around for a long time, butShark Tank India.
is very much new.
It's I think season three and you guyswere just on there and I was only able to

(19:10):
watch the teaser clip and when you in theteaser clip they put that you know you
it's you speaking saying that you put allthe designs online for people to look at.
being open source and then the one of thesharks is like immediately like You know,
what are you thinking?
You know with this and so unfortunately Icouldn't see the rest of it But I mean

(19:35):
tell us, you know, tell me what you canabout that experience and about their
response I didn't get to see all theepisode
Yeah, I mean, one thing that I trulybelieve in is that...
There is so much knowledge that when youtalk about this, it exists.
I mean, even we as we pick knowledge fromour traditional wisdom that is carried on

(20:00):
and forward.
And if you're truly talking aboutsustainability and truly talking about
climate change, it is bluntly a hypocriteto say that only I am going to do it.
I don't want anyone else to do it.
And right there, it's bullshit becausethat's not how it's going to work.
like if you want change, it has to comefrom many different places, right?

(20:21):
I mean, everybody should start doing it.
So if like, so if that's the ideology,then keeping things close to, like one is
completely anti the theory of if you walk,if you're claiming that you are in a
sustainable space and you are working onit as a climate tech, right?
So we made our work and everything public.

(20:43):
We write a lot of scientific papers.
We publish them.
We put it out there.
I have applied for a couple of patents,but then I dropped it midway.
I wanted to change my mind and said, okay,let me make it open source.
I don't want to perceive through thepatent process anymore.
So I, yeah, discontinued one of thepatents, but at the same time, still
trying to protect certain part of thedesigns because the two different things,

(21:07):
one is technical patent and the designsand all that book so that we can still,
you know, what do you say?
control on the design so that we can giveit to people and so on and so forth
because they'd also the pressure from theinvestors and so on.
So these are some of the things that youknow that we see but like I said so I went

(21:30):
with this idea to the shark saying that itis open source and we want to make it open
source so but they're not really convincedabout it.
So I think you saw that the shark'sclaiming it's kind of illogical to have
this thought as a business.
But I strongly disagree.
I believe that you can still be opensource and make a good business.

(21:55):
There is so much business opportunity forpeople to grow.
There is lots and lots of business.
It's just about how startups can actuallycome together and make it work.
But it is sad that not everybody thinksthe same way.
So yeah, I mean, you saw what happened.
So I think that's.
Yeah, no, I mean, it was just it was sucha classic moment of like, oh, you really

(22:21):
don't have expansive thinking like thatwoman.
It was like, I you know, it's like you,she was only able to think through that
classic capitalism view, and no other wayas possible.
And so I was just like, cheering you onfor that second of like open source, you
know, like keep going.

(22:42):
And so it's really important though.
because it is, I mean, that's, you know,that was one of my questions was it's
like, you know,
I don't see there being too much of achallenge of, I'm sure there'll be plenty
of higher paying clients for architecturalservices, but the real question, and you

(23:02):
can give us more light on this, but Imean, as we come into these large
temperature increases, which manycountries are already facing, and India in
particular is so intense when these heatwaves come.
It kills a lot of people, but it reducesyour ability to make a living and all

(23:27):
these different factors.
And the reality is that if this is notopen sourced, then it means that it really
the technology can't reach the vastmajority of those people.
These are people who are making...
three to five dollars a day maybe as wagelaborers.
So it's not going to reach the villages ifit's this you know hyper capitalistic

(23:51):
product.
And so
Tell us about that part.
I mean, do you envision building thingsout in some way where this is in villages
and it has the ability and or I mean, isthat kind of the open source ideas that
hey, there'll be some kids in differentparts of the country who will see this and

(24:12):
get curious and then they will go out andbuild these things?
So actually the idea, like I said, themain idea behind the open source thing is.
We want every house, I mean the ultimategoal, like personally the way I see it is

(24:32):
that let's not talk about coolant for amoment.
Let's talk about the main problem that isthere.
The main problem is with all the changesand the global warming issues and the
climate change that we're talking about.
I believe that the best solution and themost.

(24:56):
And it's not the easiest, but I would saythat the first and the easiest, you know,
the best solution is to, if every housebecomes in itself climate responsive, it
reduces the dependency on all energyresources and everything naturally, right?
That's like, that's the best thing thatcan happen.
So let's say if that's the goal, you know,if you have to counter climate change, if

(25:17):
that's what we have to do, it means thatwe have to make sure that going forward,
if every house is climate responsive,wherever you are in the world.
If you can make it climate responsive,your dependency on energy, resources,
everything will come down.
So to make it happen, we have to, as acollective, we need to make sure that how
we can contribute to make it happen.

(25:38):
So and coolant is one of the solutions.
Like, let's say that we are talking aboutpassive cooling.
We're talking about how this is there.
And even as an architect, it's not justabout this.
We also, the other work that we do, wewant people to pick it up.
And houses.
I don't know how to put this in dollars oreuros, but it's huge.
The scale of it even as a business andthis is so huge and it's crazy.

(26:04):
I mean, if you look at the numbers, it'scrazy.
So there is no shortage of business.
So the idea is that, you know, when thereis, it's just, one has to be smart enough
to make both happen that, you know, youcan still do good to the environment.
And there is, I mean, we are not againstbusinesses.
We are not against profitability.
We're not against any of these things.
But the idea is that.
let's understand the problem first andlet's understand what is the right

(26:25):
solution for that and to make thatsolution meet, we need to work backwards
and in the process, if you're able tostrike a good business, I think that's a
good balance.
So that's where we are coming from sayingthat the idea is that, okay, now this is
how building should be.
Now, how can we make it happen?
So you share the information, you tellpeople that this is the right way to do
it.
Why don't you build?
If we can do in the right thing to you, wewill help you make it.

(26:48):
Otherwise, this is what you should bebuilding or focusing on.
And so yeah, that has been our businessmodel that what we are telling people that
we are still doing a lot of work, we'restill doing a lot of projects, people
still pay us and for the services that weoffer.
And but wherever we think that we doing aproject, for instance, we get a lot of
inquiries from quite far off places.
They say that, can you help us do it?

(27:09):
If we think we can do something there, wesay, okay, fine, thank you so much, we
will do it.
But if we think we cannot reach there,it's quite expensive for us and also for
the client to bring us on.
We share the information.
We tell them that you do it.
We will help you make it, we will shareall the information.
Please get it done by a local architect orsomeone whom you can find locally.
We will be more than happy to share allthe information.
Go for it, do it, and then we will guideyou in the process.

(27:30):
So we have been doing a lot of work likethat and we are happy with it.
I mean, we are just like, we see whatthese guys come up with and we are pretty
happy.
So sometimes the satisfaction is more thanjust a profit that you make at the end of
the day.
So I think, see, that's the idea.
So that we want more and more people to doit.
Right.
And so I want to kind of zoom in a littlebit more on, let's call them the, you

(27:53):
know, the big problems in that workingbackward.
And so from what I can see is that, youknow, it's interesting because I would
say, and you can you can kind of give meyour take on this in a minute.
But I would say that even if we weren'tfacing climate change, the current

(28:14):
technologies that we're using for coolingor heating or all these different, um, you
know, ways of working with the environmentthat we do are just these really bulky
technology, heavy energy intensive.
And the core issue is that they're not inany way in harmony with nature.

(28:37):
They're not, they're not.
more than even the harmony, it's likethey're not harnessing the raw power of
nature, right?
It's always this kind of, it's this reallystrong arm, right?
Like an air conditioner is just this like,I'm going to strong arm nature by pumping
this cold air, but it's going to cost me,you know, I have to burn coal and all

(29:01):
these different things to produce theenergy to use that AC.
Do you kind of see it similar of whereyou're like, hey, even if climate change
didn't exist, we would still want to buildthese because it just makes more sense
overall?
Absolutely, absolutely, because see thewhole idea is that, you know, if we can

(29:24):
work with minimal resources, whether it ismaterial, energy and everything, I think
that's the best way to do it, whether itis for climate change or even otherwise,
the best way to do it harness the beautyof nature, what it has to offer us and
work with as minimal resources aspossible.
That's common sense, right?
I think that's simple.
Let's do.

(29:44):
But like I said, common sense is not socommon.
Yeah, no, and I love, I love, you know,it's actually interesting.
You're the only person outside of like mygroup of people that I speak with where I
love the word common science.
I think that's something we have to getback to, you know, more citizen science,
more common science.

(30:04):
So with.
With that, I mean, kind of just tell us alittle bit about like, let's just give
people a really strong visual.
So why don't we talk about the airconditioner and the issues with the air
conditioner and why it's not the best ideaand how you guys are working to provide a

(30:25):
different solution for that.
See, air conditioner definitely is one ofthe great inventions because it does solve
a problem of creating thermal comfort andcreating humidity control where it is
extremely distinct.

(30:45):
But at the same time, it is also extremelyenergy intensive.
And it has really harmful effects on theenvironment.
We have seen that.
Just in the last 100 years, the airconditioners managed to, the amount of
energy that goes into cooling has createdwith the refrigerants and stuff like we
have seen the problem with the ozonelayer.

(31:05):
Luckily, that's changing, that is nowworking backwards thanks to a lot of
initiatives by people and all that.
And the energy that it consumes and theemissions that it creates because of this
refrigerants.
It is extremely bad for the environment.
Well, I think, like I said, as aninvention, it's really cool, but as a
solution for the environment, it's reallybad.

(31:27):
And not just that, it has alsocounterproductive results on our health.
Like you know,
We are a skin and whatever we have, wehave a natural mechanism to regulate the
heat in the body.
We precipitate so that we stay naturallycool when it is this.
The hair on the body provides the kind ofinsulation that you need.

(31:48):
And with all of this, I mean, byartificially adjusting to air
conditioners, the whole body structure isnow changing.
We don't sweat anymore.
And sweating is also a beautiful mechanismto release toxins from the body.
Now because of which, when this processdoesn't happen, that's when you see the
unhealthy lifestyle, wherein you startpeople putting on weight, the obesity,

(32:08):
because the toxins, I mean, these arethings that has, what nature has given us.
Now, by adapting to this all the time,like I said, I mean, there are two ways of
looking at it.
One is what is the optimum amount of timethat one can actually be in air
conditioners.
We don't have to be there in at 100%.
So can be like what we are saying is as athing.
Can we reduce the dependency on it, if not100%, by at least 60% to 70%?

(32:34):
It's possible.
We can reduce the dependence on airconditioners by 60% to 70%.
That completely changes the dynamics.
And so we are saying, okay, because if Igo to any person, like we work with a lot
of clients and they say that, Monish, Ithink it's probably too irrational or
illogical to say that we want to leavewithout air conditioners 100%.
No problem.
Can you stay without it for...

(32:55):
60 to 70 percent.
A lot of people are happy about it.
They say, yeah, that's cool.
I think we can do that.
So we say, you know, by doing that, if youoffer people solutions that, okay, you
don't have to adapt to a zero lifestyle,you can still do good to the environment
by cutting it by beyond 50 percent of it,you can still be part of the change, you

(33:15):
know, because it's not, it's, it's thekind of impact it has on the environment,
on the health is extreme and also on the
on the countries where it like forinstance in India itself, like currently
the usage is of air conditioners isbetween 5 to 10 percent, not more than
that of the population.
Now it is predicted that by 2050 if wecontinue to move even towards this, just

(33:40):
imagine the amount of power demand it hasto generate power and what kind of an
impact it has on the government to caterto these kind of energy needs that are
coming up.
Hmm.
So altogether, it doesn't make any sense.
I think the only thing that, like I said,is one has to shift back to the passive

(34:02):
and natural methods of cooling the places.
That's it.
Right.
And so tell us a little bit about that.
Like you have these really amazing, Imean, there's so many, I just feel like we
can't even touch the tip of the icebergwith the different types of passive
systems that come from either, you know,ancient Persia or India.

(34:25):
And so you have the, am I pronouncing itright?
The Jalis.
So tell us about like, you know, some ofthose ancient
that are out there.
You know, it's amazing if you look at allthe traditional architecture in the
country.

(34:46):
India being a large nation, if you movefrom south to north, the architecture
changes.
And it changes with the geographicconditions, the materials available, and
most importantly, the climate.
Like if you go to the southern part ofIndia, like Kerala, Tamil Nadu, you'll
have where it is humid and also extremelyhot.
So you'll find this, the shading devicesand JALIs, which are more linear.

(35:09):
So there's an ample amount of air that iscoming in and also the breeze, because in
humid areas, you need the breeze that islike really important to be fresh.
Air breeze is really important.
But then the moment you go towards thebest, where it's a desert and it's
extremely hot, the JALIs are designed in amanner that, you know, the air.

(35:30):
the very tiny punctures.
So you cut the light and also the heat andyou use the physics of the building to air
enters from wider aperture to narrow sothat it also creates this, you know, the,
what do you say, the compression of air sothat as it enters, it becomes slightly bit
cooler because of the pressure difference.
So that is what is done in the Jalis inthe West.

(35:51):
And it's beautifully done.
But the moment you go towards even furthernorth into the cool climates.
There you have this the windows you needthe light and also the heat but you still
have to keep it cool So the walls arereally thick so that they provide the
insulation from cool but you have thiswindows which are slits that can bring in
both the heat and Only the heat and thelight inside but not the but not the

(36:13):
breeze and cooling So the architecture hasalways been all across not just in Persia
and of course I mean in the in the MiddleEast in Egypt.
We have beautiful examples of these thecooling towers
amazing places even if you know I think inEurope Alhambra like if you would instead
think it's fantastic and how the entirethe architecture of it like is works

(36:36):
around the natural breeze the water thewater streams natural cooling fountains
and all but design keeping in mind thethermal comfort of the person in the
building and but now
That's not the case.
Wherever you go all across the globe, youfind this similar kind of structures.
You go to South Africa or Africa, India,China, you'll find all the buildings in

(36:58):
the city starting to look like one.
There is no response to the climate.
There is no response to the sun, wind, theelements.
I think that is the problem.
So if we can work a little backwards, so Ithink growth is not always moving just
forward.
I think sometimes it's a good thing tostep backwards.
and see what we already have and how wecan improvise on those things and move

(37:20):
forward.
So yeah, I think that's how the wholeconcepts of Jalis and these things work.
So in Jaisalmer in Rajasthan, we call themas Jharokas and Jalis.
In the similar thing in the Middle East,they call it as Mashrabiyas.
It's fantastic.
I mean, all of these examples are likeextremely beautiful that we already have.

(37:42):
Right.
And they, and I guess for people who maybewant to research these laters, they also
come under the umbrella.
They would call them wind catchers.
Um, there's wind catchers.
wind catchers, the crazy examples likethat, that can, yeah.
And not only are they like these crazy,beautiful, you know, kind of sacred

(38:04):
geometric designs, but they're like theseancient windows, like you said, and it's
like, they were understanding the physicsof these things long before, you know, our
understanding today in some ways.
And so it's really fascinating.
What...
Has there, I mean, do you travel to, doyou travel a lot to go see some of these

(38:27):
places?
Like, I think on your Instagram, you had aspot in Turkey where they were building
certain types of homes, kind of based onbeehives, I think, if I'm recalling
correctly, but do you like to travel andto see some of these technologies or are
you just super busy?
yeah.
No, no, I do.
I love to travel whenever I get a chance.

(38:49):
And I traveled a few countries to explorethis, the architecture and also the
techniques that they use.
And yeah, I mean, yes, I like to.
That's one of the traveling also alwaysgives you a good inspiration to learn from
different places.

(39:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
So with that, like, learning part, I dowant to dive into that a little bit of, I
think one of my biggest fascinations withthis is not only is it nature-based, but,
you know, I do really enjoy designthinking and just all these different ways

(39:34):
to think around the problem.
And so what does that look like on theaverage project for you guys?
I mean, what are the team members looklike?
What are the backgrounds?
How do you guys work through thesedifferent things?
I mean, is it you know, is there a lot ofphysics involved in computer modeling or,
you know, is there, you know, I mean, justtell us about that.

(39:57):
See, we have a really good teamcomposition where we are a bunch of
architects and designers, but we also haveworked with, collaborated with.
people from diverse backgrounds.
We work with artists, spotters, artcommunity, craftsmen and all that like for
making stuff.
But at the same time, we're working with alot of researchers and energy consultants

(40:20):
and energy modeling.
So like talking about the buildingphysics, the performance of the building.
So whatever we do, we try to see, I thinksomething that we have been really
enjoying the most is taking this, thetraditional systems and plug them with the
modern softwares
performance is like, and so that we canactually create a database around how

(40:41):
traditional systems are effective.
And that's something that we enjoy themost, so that we are trying to create
these mathematical models to study andmake it more concrete and contribute to
the research of how the traditionalsystems are working and how we can even
further improvise those things.
So that's something that we guys aredoing.
And to do that, we are collaborating with,we can say, a lot of these.

(41:06):
the crazy people from the scientificbackground.
We are working with universities on someresearch projects together.
So yeah, these are things that I do.
And also sometimes whenever I get a time,I also teach in a university so that
that's also a good exchange of knowledgewith the student community.
So yeah, all in all, I think we do getlike a lot of really good team members

(41:33):
from
you know, engineering background and allto come and collaborate with us on
projects.
So it's not a typical, I would say, anarchitecture practice.
So there are a lot of research, I mean,this is, you can say a lot of movement of
different kind of people actually comingand working together.
Right.
And what does it look like when you hit awall?

(41:57):
No pun intended, right?
But like when you guys hit something thatyou're not able to break through or you
need some sort of alternate thinking, Imean, is there any kind of go-to practices
for that?
Is it go take a nap or use some other toolor what does that look like?

(42:20):
I'll tell you something Justin, even nowI've been working on this for like last
7-8 years on this particular research, I'dsay 2015, so 9 years now.
And even now I get sleepless nights aboutI do some projects and when clients text
me after we finish a project and we get tothem, if I get a call the first thing I
assume is something is not working.

(42:43):
Something is wrong with this.
So they're calling me, I still get thosejitters.
So the thing is I think...
But that's the reality of it because, youknow, that it's really important to...
or do you say stay grounded and keeplooking at things that can go wrong?

(43:07):
Because we have like a lot of good casestudies, but at the same time, we get
sometimes the craziest of the problems arenot the performance, but the craziest of
the problems are mostly to do with eitherthe maintenance or like, you know, there's
some kind of mosquitoes, there's nothingin our control with mosquitoes.
Or there is something to do with, you cansay,

(43:29):
Like, you know, probably I'll tell you, wedid a school.
We love that.
I think it's one of the best project.
Because it's a school for street kids andunderprivileged kids.
Like I said, for me, that's the one of mybest projects.
I mean, I personally enjoy it while Ithink we're still like, while we're doing
it because we have done a lot of projects,but that's something like I said, I always

(43:50):
felt that if you teach the students, thenthey can go and do much more, right?
That's there.
But now when you go to the school, thesekids are like, they're playing football or
they take deliberately take out stuff andthey break it for the fun of it.
And so things like this happen.
And then we know there's nothing that wecan do about it.
And so these are things like what you'reasking if you hit a wall.

(44:11):
So these are things that happen and we arelike, okay, now what else can we do to
make it kids proof or stuff like that.
So it's an ongoing process.
So I think you always have this, but thenluckily.
It's a very good team, so we always haveeach other's back.
And we keep discussing new ideas.
How do we do this and how do we do that?

(44:32):
You know, so yeah.
But I think this hitting the wall happensmore often than you think, because we
keep, as a research studio, we keepinvestigating new things, new stuff all
the time.
And like we, something or the other alwaysgoes wrong.
So we're kind of used to it.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like you have thoseimplementation challenges versus maybe

(44:56):
like the core design challenges in thoseways and the implementation ones you can
just never really, you can never foreseewhat they're going to be in some way
there.
They're always.
Yeah, having run a startup in India myselfit's just like, there's going to be a
million of them, there's no way to predictthem.
The only thing to do is adapt and respondthat's all you're going to get.

(45:20):
Yeah.
in those situations.
But very much earlier in this recording,you mentioned increasing the, I think you
said, transpiration or the evaporation.
Is that for a lot of these terracottacooling designs, is that kind of the name

(45:43):
of the game, is figuring out how toincrease evaporation because that's gonna
create more cooling rapidly?
Or tell us a little bit about that.
It's actually controlling it.
That's the game changer, not justincreasing it.
So the game changer in here is that themore the surface area, the more cooling

(46:05):
you get.
And you're also adding more humidity tothe environment.
So the game changer, I think, is if you'reable to control the amount of evaporation
according to the need, using all the, youknow,
the control mechanism, sensors, and allthat, so that you can, how much you want
to evaporate, how much water you want torun in a system, based on the climatic

(46:25):
conditions outside and how to regulatethat, that's the game changer, not just
increasing the surface area.
Because if you focus just on theincreasing, then it's like you're just
adding more and more humidity and also youare increasing more and more water usage.
But the other way is, by control I mean,
you can control the amount of daylighting, you can control the ventilation,

(46:48):
the surface area, the amount of water thatyou're pouring.
So it's a, you know, the balance,according to the orientation, the lighting
factors, the viewing angles that you get,how much it has to be porous in front of
you.
So these are the things that create the,you know, that balance actually that comes
into it.

(47:08):
Okay, and so I guess one of the challengesyou said like you have you have surface
area as like the more surface area themore cooling you're going to get but at
the same time you can't just build a giantthing everywhere so it's working to create
a design that has the most surface areawith the least amount of space I guess

(47:32):
right I mean would that be one of the corechallenges?
Absolutely, I mean, that's what I'mseeing.
It totally depends on, we go over thedesign based on the project, where
exactly, that's where the math come intoplace.
So we design it thinking that, okay, thisis the amount of water, this is the space,
this is the volume, so we need this muchof cooling.
So how much surface area do we need andhow much water and how do we regulate it?

(47:55):
So these are the things that we kind ofcalculate.
And how much do shapes play in this,right?
Because a lot of your designs are verybeautiful and they have these really
beautiful curvatures and different looksto them.
Are those just art or is that also playingvery much into the physics and surface

(48:17):
area and the whole grand scheme?
No, it's both.
See, the beauty of architecture, I think,is that if you look at Europe, I mean, in
many parts of the world, actually, even inPeru, for that matter.
So everywhere when you go there, thearchitecture has to be both functional and

(48:38):
also beautiful.
You take the simplest thing like a doorknob.
and how artistic that you can make it.
But the function, it's a door knob end ofthe day.
So function first comes first, whereinwhat is the problem it is solving, and
then how beautifully we can make it.
So we calculate first the functionality ofit and then see how we can convert that

(48:59):
math into a beautiful object.
So because I'll just tell you something, Imean, if you look at the sun, and sun is
not a static object, it moves from one toanother.
It's not like if I do a perfect shadingdevice at one angle, my sun is going to
stay there.
The sun is going to keep moving, right?
So it gives me a range, saying that myshading device can be between 23 to 35 or

(49:23):
40 degrees to be effective.
So I can use that math, that range isthere, to create a beautiful wave or a
curve linear form to say that I can keepeverything within that range so that I get
this beautiful play of light and shadowand move with the sun in creating that.
So that's the, you know, that's the beautybecause in nature everything is, nothing

(49:44):
is static, right?
So that's where the curves and the formsand everything come into play.
Right.
Okay.
And so you...
You mentioned with like, you know, if youjust were to only increase it, then you
have this thing of like creating more andmore humidity.

(50:04):
Um, for those who don't know myunderstanding, which is very basic,
actually one of the biggest issues with,um, increases in temperature specifically
in certain areas, right?
A lot of times, I mean, just for a quickoverview, there will be some places in the
world that may actually in some ways havea per

(50:26):
benefit of an increased temperature wheremaybe they have a little bit less snow and
then therefore they have a longer farmingseason.
But in places like India, even thesouthern United States like Mississippi,
Alabama, Louisiana, there's a thing calledthe bulb temperature and this has to do
with humidity and that once that as thatapproaches this increase it's not just

(50:51):
pure temperature.
but essentially it makes it to where thebody cannot sweat properly, I believe.
I mean, is this something that you guysare looking at with the different regions
of India?
Is this a design challenge for you thatyou think about at all?
Yeah, definitely.

(51:13):
That's one of the major factors, the wetbuild temperature and the difference
between the dry and wet is what actuallysets the performance, because that's the
most important parameter in the design.
So we always design keeping in mind thegap between the wet and the dry build
temperature, because that's the maximumperformance that you can achieve in the.

(51:36):
this one.
So we always cater to those ones.
But Justin, there is also one more veryimportant factor that, you know, we are
not, when we are talking about systems,like what we are talking about with
building envelopes, it's not always justevaporative cooling.
We are talking about shading, we aretalking about ventilation, we are talking
about the daylighting, optimizing all thethree combined with evaporative cooling.

(52:00):
So holistically speaking, we are talkingabout four different solutions in one.
So because even shading plays a veryimportant role in cutting the heat and the
light coming into the building.
So all of these factors togethercollectively is what we design as a

(52:21):
building envelope, of which evaporation isonly one part of it.
So like I said, but definitely
we consider the difference between the drybulb and wet bulb in designing our
systems.
Okay, gotcha.
And yeah, and just to round out thatholistic perspective, I mean, there's even

(52:42):
you guys talk about how eventually on theterracotta and some of the designs that
you actually have a moss that starts togrow on them, which is also purifying air,
which is a major missing component in anykind of modern technology that it's a
natural air purification in it.

(53:06):
Yeah, so that's the beauty, right?
I mean, if you look at it, nature hassurprisingly a lot of answers that it's
beautiful, like if you look at it.
And there is moss that can sequestercarbon dioxide.
And it's a natural formation when waterand derogator come together, it forms.

(53:29):
Now, some people like it and some peopledon't like it.
So we say that it's very easy to controlboth.
I mean, if you like it, you just have tolet it be.
And if you don't like it, you need to addsalt, say, before tonight.
That will make sure that there is no moss.
But both are possible.
And so the idea is that, you know, how doyou let these, depending on the project.

(53:50):
So we have designed systems where both arepossible.
in certain projects that people don't likemore.
So it's okay.
I mean, people have their own choices.
So we are okay, fine.
We don't want more, it's fine.
But some people are like, people are likevery nature friendly.
They want it to be there.
So we work according to that.
Right.
And so what does the average client rightnow look like for the business?

(54:16):
Can you hear me now?
Can you, Justin, can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
one second I lost you I think myconnection is a little yeah
Yep, can you hear me now?
AI can hear you now.
Okay, yeah, I think the connection is alittle slow on that side, but that's okay,

(54:37):
as long as you can hear me.
So what is the average kind of clientright now look like for this business?
No, it's fantastic.
I mean, we're getting some really goodinquiries, and a lot of people are
reaching out to us.
It's much more than what we are able tocater to right now, in fact.

(54:59):
It is a good problem to have.
And so sooner or later, if we can findsome good investors, I think we will be
able to scale much faster, for sure.
But the response has been quite warm andencouraging.
So a lot of people do reach out to us, infact globally, and they're asking us to

(55:20):
do.
So like I said, we have currently, what doyou say, projects in different parts of
the country and also like four to fivedifferent countries also.
And in India, I think mostly the
the hot and dry states of something thatwe are catering to.
So yeah, the response has been reallygood.

(55:43):
Okay.
And is it a lot of like private homeownerswho want to add this?
Is it businesses and offices or what?
I mean, what is kind of the norm look likeso far?
It has been mixed.
We do institutions, offices.
We're doing, what do you say, businesses,factories, private owners.

(56:09):
So it has been mixed.
It is a mix.
So whenever we get a project, we see if weas a startup, if we can actually do the
solution or provide solution to them ornot, and then we take forward accordingly.
So if you think that our solution fitsbest,
then we take it up or else we don't.
But luckily we have been getting inquiriesfrom quite a different range of products.

(56:35):
Right.
And for a large, I mean, for a factory andthings like that, I mean, there must be a
pretty, you know, strong use case withthat for them to be so interested in.
And so I think on the website, it says,you know, like up to 15% reduction in, uh,
in temperature, I believe, or is it 15degrees?

(56:58):
15 degrees, I'll just tell you, I mean,this is something that people
misunderstand, especially fromnon-technical background.
So, no matter what, we cannot go below thewet bulb temperature.
Okay, so we cannot go below wet bulb,that's for sure.
So the thing is, if the temperatureexternally is in India, if it is 48, we
hit 48 like quite easily.

(57:20):
For me, it's not so difficult to bring itto 3132.
There is already a 15 to 16 degree drop.
the temperature and but if my wet bulb issomewhere around 26 28 I can even get it
up to 30 so there's a drop of 18 degreesit's possible but if my external
temperatures are 32 and my wet bulb is 30I can't even get one degree drop so the

(57:43):
performance that is there the is alwaysthe is depends between the you know like I
said that's what I keep saying thatbetween the what the maximum I can get is
less than the dry bulb and the wet bulb
So that's how it works.
Okay, so the dry bulb is 48 and the wetbulb is 32.
I can get somewhere in between is theperformance that I can get.

(58:05):
And that's what physics states.
I cannot go below that.
And is that firm?
I mean, is there a possibility that thereis a discovery or an innovation that could
someday change that?

(58:26):
Or is that just...
It's just not going to change.
Yeah.
I'm talking about natural means to gobelow that naturally, unless you use some
form of mechanical energy to make ithappen.
So that's simple physics.
So you cannot go below that withoutadditional mechanical energy, like cooling
some of the solutions and all to do it.

(58:48):
So yeah.
so until we break some physics laws, thenwe can do it.
Okay, okay, gotcha.
But actually, I'll tell you something, buteven then, that's a, it's, it's quite
amazing if we can still get this becauseI'll tell you what, we're also working on
some pre-cooling solutions for coolingtowers and other stuff.

(59:11):
So if you're able to do majority of thework on the cooling towers, like if air is
entering into a cooling tower at 36.
And let's say my system, we added apre-cooling because it's quite easy to do
and quite cheaper.
And if it is really reducing the air at 36to, let's say, 30, that itself has
tremendous performance on increasing theperformance of cooling power and also

(59:34):
reduces the energy loads and therefrigerants and everything.
So even that way, this pre-cooling and allof it, it has a great potential in overall
reducing the dependency on the airconditions, which I think is a great thing
in natural.
nature-based solutions like this isbecause, like I said, the goal has always

(59:55):
been that, you know, how can we try toreduce as much as this dependency on it,
but not to claim or prove that, you know,we're going to replace it 100%.
At least as of now, we don't have answersto that.
But that also has not been the intent tostart with.
Okay, gotcha.
And I mean, you guys are primarily, Imean, as of now, it's clear that you're

(01:00:20):
very much an Indian startup, but like yousaid, you have a lot of interests from
around the world.
Are there any particular areas in theworld that you think are just absolutely
perfect for this technology for adoption,for example, say like Arizona in the US?
Yeah, absolutely.

(01:00:40):
There are a lot of places which is hot anddry, the Middle East, Arizona, like many
places in fact where it is, our solutionis like very best suited.
And so you mentioned the hot and dry.
Do you...
You know, one thing that I...

(01:01:00):
when I look at some of the current climatemaps, which are not always...
anywhere near correct.
There's lots of projections and those getchanged all the time.
But for example, the, you know, theSouthern United States will virtually be
inhabitable in probably 50 to a hundredyears because of the wet bulb temperature,

(01:01:23):
or you would have to be inside an airconditioned room all day.
And you wouldn't be able to do any kind ofphysical labor outside any kind of
construction or agriculture and thingslike that.
Do you envision more migrations out ofthese really intense wet bulb areas into

(01:01:43):
more of these dry areas?
We are definitely seeing, look at the,this climate change is unbelievable.
I mean, we are starting to see the thingseven in cities.
Forget about remote areas and wet bulbzones.
I'm in Delhi right now, Delhi and Noida.
Last monsoon was a havoc.

(01:02:05):
It is, the amount of floods isunprecedented.
We have seen nothing like this before.
and the amount of landslides and thiseverywhere.
I mean, it has become a common thing.
It is no more a myth.
It's quite evident.
It's on your face, this climate, whateverhappening.
Now, it's not just about people migrating.
It is affecting, there is indirect effect,not just about the wet and humid areas,

(01:02:29):
but it's having global impact in theclimate.
Greece was flooded a few years back.
China was extremely bad last year.
We saw this in even UK, I think, gotflooded quite crazy last year, right?
Last year, I think when it comes to thefloods and all, we heard stories like

(01:02:50):
never before.
So it is, I mean, it's inescapable.
And also look at the situation with...
wars and all of it in a lot of places inthe world, they're also not helping.
They're also adding more to the globalwarming issues.
So my answer is that it's not just aboutmoving from the wet areas to dry areas.

(01:03:11):
It's just we need to find a holisticsolution.
It's not that simple, just about, youknow, because it's much serious than as it
seems, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And so for you guys though, why focus onthe dry areas more?
Is it because that differential of the Youknow the increase that you can get or the

(01:03:34):
cost reductions and the decreases intemperature It's just because that range
is so much better than the humid areasthat it makes more sense to go there first
No, let's say, I mean, let me put thescenario in front of you.
Like when people reach out to us and theycome to us from different climatic zones.
So when they come from a typically wetarea, we tell them that evaporative

(01:03:58):
cooling is not at its best in yourlocation.
But still, the other principles ofshading, ventilation, and daylighting can
still work for a passive building.
And we can still do that.
But if you're expecting us to provide a
an evaporative cooling solution for you,we don't have that solution for you,
unfortunately.
But we still can provide you the othersolutions based on these three factors.

(01:04:21):
But if it is a dry, and which is whatpeople like hot and dry climate with
evaporative cooling, where the performancefor the same system is more, even if I'm
providing the same system in two differentplaces, obviously the temperature drop in
the dry is much more than the wet.
So we tell them, and we still do our, weable to do in some projects,

(01:04:43):
like a coastal region or something,they're still working in these areas.
But then we communicate to the peoplesaying that do not expect the same
performance from the same system as youwould in a dry and hot and dry.
A lot of people understand that and stillwould like to work with this.
But it is a responsibility to tell themthat I cannot claim the same results from

(01:05:03):
the same system in two different climaticzones.
So rest is up to them.
Okay, gotcha.
What about in terms of like the tools youguys are using?
I mean, is artificial intelligencestarting to help you guys at all in any
way?
Do you guys work with a lot of differentmodels?

(01:05:25):
sooner, soon, I think we are doing a lotof, first building a database to.
collect it, and then eventually the ideais also to use it for predicting the
systems in the future.
Because there is not, while I think thistraditional wisdom and all of that we talk
about is thousands of years old, but whenit comes to the data, and especially
around passive systems, it's not asconcrete as it should be.

(01:05:49):
So we are collecting data right now, andalso the idea is that we collect a lot of
data with the sensors and all of it sothat we can predict the systems in the
future with the help of these ones.
But to reach there with AI and machinelearning
and stuff, we need to first have a hugedatabase, which is what we are focusing on
right now.
So yeah, one day we can start exploitingthe benefits of AI in this domain.

(01:06:13):
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, I can kind of see it being likethe...
Going back to the initial premise, I verymuch am interested in mostly low tech
solutions, right?
Even coming from the farming industry,looking at how the vast majority of
farming now is so high tech that thefarmer, especially in the US or Europe,

(01:06:35):
they really don't have any power.
They've been stripped of all of their ownpersonal power because of the introduction
of all of this high tech and they don'thave low tech solutions.
Whereas you see in the small
regenerative organic farming or gardeningworld, you see all these low tech
solutions coming in, which I feel is verymuch, you know, kind of in one on one

(01:07:00):
side, you guys have this extraordinarilylow tech where it's like, you know,
terracotta, clay materials, water, andsimple designs, but I can also see
eventually where the AI can kind of createthe like, you know, the queen bee.
where all this energy is coming off of,and then it can be disseminated faster to

(01:07:22):
everyone else and with more data, moreinput of different designs for different
locations.
I can see how that could be quiteinteresting.
Absolutely.
It is like I said, I mean, so there isthis debate about always low tech or high
tech.
I think both have their own advantages.

(01:07:45):
In scaling, if you have the righttechnology to scale and take it to the
masses, then technology definitely helps.
But then at the same time, one should not.
lose out on the hands on the low tech,that you know, hands on stuff that we can
do ourselves.
I think you're also saying the same thing,right?
Like, you know, because to scale and totake it, technology definitely has this,
but the disadvantage is that you becometoo dependent on the tech.

(01:08:09):
So I think it's just a matter of choice,Justin and ethics, because how like, there
is no simple answer to that because
Ultimately, a lot of the startups andcompanies working with tech, they hold the

(01:08:30):
control to the data.
They are the ones who actually have thisrigorous control, isn't it?
So
no, for sure.
And I think that's what's so unique aboutthis project.
And I just wish you all the power andsuccess and good power to push forward in
the open source and bringing it to theworld in all these different ways.

(01:08:56):
I kind of want to move toward finishing uphere.
I don't want to take too much of your timebecause I know you're extremely busy, but
I'd like to know, you know...
What are some of your other interests thatare not necessarily look like they would
be aligned with your work, but I mean, isit fiction fantasy novels?

(01:09:18):
Is it just-
anything outside?
I was even earlier thinking I had thisquestion.
We can go into this really quick.
What is, and I'm totally brain fartinghere, what is the system in India, the
traditional system?
Is it Vastu?

(01:09:39):
Or
Yeah.
Vastu, right?
And that's where they analyze theenergetics of the land and the house, but
it also has a lot to do with airflow andother dynamics.
Does that play in any, I mean, has thatever been an inspiration for you at all?
Honestly, I'll tell you something.

(01:10:00):
I'm pretty fascinated by this, the subjectof Vastu.
And I believe that it is one of the thingsthat holds a strong position in the
society.
And if it harnessed properly, I think itcan help in...

(01:10:20):
communicating about the climate and theclimate change to a much larger audience
because people believe in Vastu far morethan people believe in architects, far
more.
The kind of impact Vastu has on thesociety is unbelievable.
It's like it's really powerful.
I'm talking about as a coming from theprospect of the belief system.
It's a religion in itself, Vastu.

(01:10:43):
And so if like, you know, if dealt withproperly, it really has the potential to
talk to people about a lot of these issuesin a much more concrete manner.
But I also believe strongly that it needsan upgrade, because Vastu is built on the
fundamentals of the building science datedback to centuries, like you know, old ago.

(01:11:07):
But now there's a lot of science andeverything has, it has evolved.
and so should Vastu should also evolve.
But unfortunately, in a lot of places thatwe see that people still follow blindly
certain Vastu principles, which are, in myopinion, are not, they are dated, they are
not so relevant in modern day.
So it needs an upgrade, which I think onceit happens, I think it's amazing.

(01:11:29):
So, but yeah, it's a very powerful mediumfor sure.
Right.
And so just to give the listener,especially the listener in US or Europe, a
little bit more.
So Vastu, the simplest way to make acomparison, which again, don't take this
as the exact comparison, would be it'sprobably

(01:11:50):
a more robust version of Chinese FengShui.
And it has all of these differentprinciples of energetics of the house and
location and airflow, all the like yousaid, it really is a religion in itself.
And I have a funny story about this.
So we were building

(01:12:12):
our factory outside of Navi Mumbai, right?
On the highway in between Navi Mumbai andPune.
And...
You know, we had probably the absolutebest consultants in India for this.
And we were going to build, we did builda, probably a top five quality food

(01:12:32):
manufacturing facility there, you know,with every major certification from Europe
or the U S that was not present.
And so, you know, one of the core partsis, you know, you're designing the process
flows of how the factory is going to flowand all these things.
and they've done all this work.

(01:12:53):
And then my partner comes in one morningand he just goes, I can't sleep.
And he goes, it's the factory.
He said, there's something about it that'swrong.
And he goes, we need to hire someone whodoes Vastu.
And what's funny too is he was always, youknow, I mean, I don't think anyone can

(01:13:15):
really be born in India and come fromIndia and not have.
just a deep religious inclination, but hewould always be like, I'm not religious,
I'm not superstitious, but then when hecame in that day, we had such a good laugh
and he was just like, there's somethingwrong with the flow.

(01:13:38):
And I said, hey man, do what we got to do.
So we hired a Vostu expert and changed thefactory.
But I mean, imagine that, right?
for people listening, you're talking abouta $1.5 million factory that has another
probably $300,000 in high-tech consultantsfor process flows.

(01:14:03):
But then we go and hire this Vastu personbecause that's how much it impacts culture
in India.
And that's how embedded this idea is inIndia.
And...
Yeah, it's interesting once you said thatis it probably is one of the greatest ways
for you to promote these new models oftechnologies is finding a way to work

(01:14:28):
within that Vostu affinity that peoplehave and finding the people who are maybe
a little bit more flexible initially whodon't just blindly follow.
But it's super, super fascinating.
Well, cool.
I mean, we could we could go on foreverabout Vos too, but is that kind of a is

(01:14:49):
that a common?
Are there other people on the team thathave a deep interest in that?
Or are there some other
No, I think we all believe that it's agreat, I mean, like I said, I'm not, I am
a believer in Vastu, but like I said, thatwe try to back it up with scientific

(01:15:10):
evidence all the time.
We do a lot of Vastu projects, but wedon't go by what the book says.
We try to combine it with climatology andthe climate science.
and combine these two things together andfind these intersections where both of
them are, they can work in sync.
So I think that also resonates in thestudio because that's what I think

(01:15:32):
collectively we as a team we are trying topush because when people come to us for
VAS2 we also try to combine, I mean talkto them about the science behind it and
how climate plays a major important rolein VAS2 and it does, it is.
So yeah, we do a lot of that VAS2 work in.
in most of the architecture projects thatwe do.

(01:15:52):
Okay, gotcha.
Is Vasu, I mean, does that come, was Vasua core part of the Vedas?
Or is it, okay, yeah, right.
Vasu Shastra, okay, yeah.
Wow, a whole, a whole different world.
Okay, well, I would love to go into allthat right now too, but we have other

(01:16:15):
lives to live.
But great, Justin, you seem to have a lotof knowledge about India and all this
thing.
I'm quite, you know, I'm too enjoying thisconversation.
It is pretty amazing that you know a lotof stuff about India, the traditional
sciences, the architecture.

(01:16:36):
It's fantastic.
I mean, it seems you're very well versedwith, you know, all this.
amazing things.
I'm quite impressed that you have put inso much research in the sciences.
Well, it's, you know, for me, it's, it'sjust my, my knowledge is very dispersed.

(01:17:02):
I don't have the deep type of knowledgethat you have, but it's, um, it's just, it
seems like the way forward, you know, it'sjust so clear to me that it's the way
forward.
I actually, one of the, one of the thingsthat really got me into this was I would
say about 15 years ago.

(01:17:23):
Um,
And this is maybe, yeah, this is duringcollege, because I studied sociology and
religion, but for my religious studies, Ionly focused on Eastern religion.
So Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism.
I came to India originally and studied forthe summer with a Jain community.
And, you know, but I was never the beststudent, you know, most of it I, you know,

(01:17:48):
I forget, but it was great experiences.
But I went to a, a
conference in San Francisco forEarthships.
And Earthships were really my firstintroduction into a alternative building
designs.
And that just blew my mind.
And over the years, I've just kind of kepttrack of, okay, what are the other things

(01:18:13):
happening?
And that's why when I found Cool Ant, itwas just like, wow, this is kind of, for
me,
the pinnacle of a startup working in thisspace.
It was just, it blew my mind.
And so yeah, I've had a lot of fun too.
We should do another one and we can talkabout all the different, you know.

(01:18:35):
just I'm really loving this conversation.
I'm sure I think we should plan anotherone.
And but yeah, like to visit India sometimeagain, and we'd love to host you here.
It's good to love to hear your experiencesin India and you know, what are your
inspirations and your travel stories?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, now, you know, now my connectionthere is, is when I left, I actually

(01:18:58):
started studying herbal medicine.
And so now my big connection back to Indiais Ayurveda.
And so, you know, working with Ayurveda.
Excuse me, sorry.
I'll have a lot of editing to do on thispodcast.
Um, uh, I left pretty much a couple, liketwo or three months right before COVID

(01:19:22):
really hit, you know, so I got back to theU S and I probably only had one month in
the U S until they kind of started lockingthings down.
So I left right before then, but then Iwas there.
Originally I consulted for a one of thelargest California almond companies.

(01:19:42):
which has all of its own challenges.
But then actually through that, I met mybusiness partner.
He was one of the largest importers andbuyers of California Almonds in India
based in Mumbai.
And he was just always the smartest guy.
Out of all the people I would talk to inthe market there, I would talk to 10 to 15

(01:20:04):
different buyers every day, a lot of thembeing located in old Delhi in the market
there.
Okay.
guy was just always the most intelligent,you know, I, we would talk for an hour and
he would, you know, he would say, youknow, you think Amazon's going to work in
India?
And I'd go, absolutely not.
He'd go, you're right.

(01:20:25):
So what is going to work or how is itgoing to look?
And we would just
have these conversations about how arethings going to transform in India?
How will it change?
And at one point we decided to start thissnacking startup, but the whole time, the
beautiful part was just being so steepedin everyday India culture.

(01:20:47):
You know, it was much different than beinga tourist.
you know, where you're kind of goingaround it.
You know, every day I was in an officewith, you know, my, my Kerala coworkers
and employees and someone from NorthIndia, someone from Tamil Nadu.
And just the, the different experiencesand culture and everything was just such

(01:21:09):
a, a wonderful experience.
And so I.
You know, it added so much to my lifethat, yeah, but I would love to come back
and see some of these things.
Do, like, you know, we'll be happy to,like, have you here, host you.

(01:21:30):
And, yeah, like I said, fantastic.
I'm really happy that we're having thisconversation.
Seems like you had a great time in India.
So, nice.
I will see you but I will not see youduring monsoon or the summer.
I'll be there in winter That's that's forsure Okay, well Manish I'm gonna let you

(01:21:52):
go but thank you again for this wonderfultime and I'll let you know once I get
everything posted and then I can they'llalso create some short clips out of this
So I can I can send you those short clipsif you want any for your
for your social media channels and thingslike that at some point.

(01:22:16):
Yep.
Okay.
Yeah.
anyways, tonight is the airing of theepisode of Shark Tank.
So...
So, in a couple of hours, yes, I think twoto three hours.
So, yeah, so...
I don't have access to that streamingplatform, but I'm hoping eventually it'll

(01:22:37):
be on YouTube.
Yeah.
we will share that.
Don't expect, don't have highexpectations.
It is, the expectation should be reallylow, but definitely we will just share it
to you for your information for reference.
So, but yeah, please share some clips fromthis, whatever you think.

(01:22:57):
We'll be really happy to have it forsocials.
Yeah.
Sounds good.
Sounds good.
All right.
Well, thanks Manish
Thank you, thanks man, thank you so much.
Nice talking to you Justin.
See you soon.
Bye.