January 22, 2025 • 35 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Bekim is joined by Joe Bondy. Joe is an award-winning Mortgage Broker and the Co-Founder of Super Mortgage Team from Windsor, Ontario. Joe has been in the mortgage industry for 22 years. Growing up on a farm, he learned invaluable lessons about sales, entrepreneurship, and hard work that would later become the foundation of his success. After spending 18 years at banks as a Mortgage Specialist with BMO & RBC, Joe decided he wanted more freedom for himself and his clients, and decided to take the plunge, become a broker, and form the Super Mortgage Team.
Joe is here to discuss: → His journey going from farmer to banker to broker, what keeps him motivated, and the goal of the Super Mortgage Team. → The ways brokering beats banking, the truth about bank "exceptions", and Joe's mortgage process with his team. → Building a relationship-based mortgage business, maintaining valuable realtor relationships, and how he's gained the trust of his clients and team members.
Joe Bondy's Email: joebondy@supermortgageteam.ca
Joe Bondy's LinkTree: @supermortgageman
Joe Bondy's Instagram: @supermortgageman
Joe Bondy's LinkedIn: @JoeBondy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you for listening to LennonThoughts, sponsored by Rocket Pro.
(00:02):
Today, I'm joined by my friend andfellow mortgage broker, Joe Bondy,
who is out of Windsor, Essex, justlike us here at Rocket.
And Joe and I have a greatconversation.
We talk about his journey fromfarmer to banker to then broker.
We talk about impact andcollaboration in this industry for
mortgage brokers.
We talk about his journey through
(00:23):
this industry and what he'slearned from being a broker and
the ways that you can serviceclients and utilize broker
technology, which according toJoe, is 10 years ahead of the
bank.
So we're going to dive into that
here today.
Please have a listen and thank you
again.
Joe, welcome to Lending Thoughts.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
(00:46):
Absolutely.
I've known each other for quite
some time.
Yes, friends outside of this
place, local to Windsor as well,which is great.
I've learned a lot from you.
I'll have you know that.
Thank you.
Starting out.
So I thought it'd be good to talkto some folks and have them hear
from you as well.
But let's kind of start from the
beginning.
If you don't mind, can you tell us
your life story in 60 seconds orless?
Really quickly, I grew up in afarming family.
grew up in a farming family.
(01:07):
So working in the fields, then as
I got old enough, my dad wouldtake me to the Easter market in
Detroit.
And I learned sales from him.
It was a family run business.
So I've always had that
entrepreneurial spirit.
I was in the tool trade at the
time.
My wife was a realtor and she's a
very successful realtor and won atrip with Bank of Montreal, their
best of the best trip to Cuba.
(01:29):
And I got to meet a bunch of
mortgage specialists.
And I thought, you guys do this.
And you guys are actually prettycool.
I didn't think bankers were cool,but it was pretty good.
And then I said, how do I jointhis culture, this team?
And funny as it may be, I talkedto the regional manager at the
time.
And he said, you know nothing
about mortgages.
Why would I hire you?
I said, yeah, but I know sales.
(01:50):
Sales is you got to learn the
product.
So I learned the mortgage product.
He said, fine, go to SenecaCollege, do your underwriting
course.
So you at least know something
about mortgages.
And growing up with the family, we
always used to play Monopoly.
And that was my favorite game.
It's all about mortgages.
And funny thing is, is the week
that I was writing my exam atSeneca College, one of the
mortgage specialists from Bank ofMontreal quit.
(02:11):
And he called me out of the bluesaying, hey, are you still
interested?I said, funny, I'm writing my exam
on Saturday.
He says, perfect.
Let's write your exam.
Once you pass, we'll go play golf
at Point West.
I'll call it your job interview.
Then I'll put you up for hire.
Then he put me up for hire.
I had to talk to some executivesfrom Toronto.
They're like, you have noexperience.
Why would we hire you?And basically I said, you can
(02:33):
either hire me or I can be yourcompetition.
You probably don't want me to beyour competition.
And so I got hired at Bank ofMontreal and that's where it
started.
Four years later, RBC came
knocking.
I ended up joining them and spent
14 years there and now createdwith my brother, my own brokerage.
All right.
What's the name of your brokerage?
We are part of Dominion LendingCenter's national super mortgage
team.
Awesome.
And we could thank it all toMonopoly of all things.
(02:55):
So the Monopoly growing up as akid, every year we'd have a family
game sitting around the table.
I sell properties and mortgage and
so forth.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
I have a feeling you're not alone
in that.
Like growing up, I have vivid
memories of learning real estatefrom Monopoly as well.
Like how to handle money and buy,hold, sell, all that stuff.
Trade, negotiate deals.
(03:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
What an awesome life skill tolearn at an early age.
I grew up in the landscapingbusiness.
I don't know if you know thisabout me.
I didn't know it.
Yeah.
Entrepreneurial family backgroundand my dad ran a landscaping
company.
So big part of it was sales.
Like we didn't have contractsalespeople.
We did the sales ourselves andfigured out how to communicate
with people and make work happenand work made money happen, make
(03:35):
business happen.
A lot of stuff, how your people
grow and learned a lot of it fromthat.
And then kind of accidentally hada friend, just like.
You and people that I knew werelike, yeah, you should try this
mortgage thing.
Okay.
And fast forward here.
And when you're younger, it's
like, yeah, I'll try anything,right?
Yeah, exactly.
I didn't know exactly what I was
going to do after that.
And it wasn't one of those things
(03:57):
that like your school counselortalks to you about.
Yeah, wasn't one of those thingsthat like your school counselor
talks to you about.
Like, hey, have you thought about
getting into sales or mortgageswhen you're older?
So you just kind of fall into itlike most people, right?
So like me, you didn't want towork in the fields or the dirt
anymore.
to work in the fields or the dirt
anymore.
No, no, no. My dad laughs to me.
My hands are soft now.
Yeah.
I still got some remnants ofcalluses.
So let's maybe talk about thattransition that you made from
(04:17):
banker to broker, really, becausewe're two different worlds, but
much the same in that you stillhave a lot of relationships that
you need to manage.
At the end of the day, you're
doing mortgage deals.
What was that transition like?
What are some of the majordifferences that you noticed from
going to the bank world, in whichyou were most recently at RBC for
14 years, to now running your ownbrokerage with your brother and
(04:38):
some other folks?your brother and some other folks?
Yeah, I mean, the major thing wasthat when I was with the bank, you
had to play by the bank's rules.
You were limited in your growth.
Although I was top 1 % in thecountry for the last eight years I
was at the bank, I couldn't growmy team.
I was allowed two juniors andthree assistants.
And that was it.
And I've asked, I begged, please
allow me to hire more people on.
(04:59):
He said, nope, if you get too big,
then you'll leave too big of ahole if you're to leave.
I said, if you don't let me getbigger, I'm going to leave.
So at the end of the day, mybrother and I, because my brother
was on my team at the time, wewent out and we started our own.
business.
And now we've got 17 agents on our
team and four admin, five admin,actually.
(05:19):
So we're growing in the last threeyears.
You know, the thing about the bankis I used to know everything about
the 10 products we have.
Now I need to know 10 products for
the 38 plus lenders that we have.
So I got to know like 500
different products so that I cangive the clients the best advice.
But, you know, there's not oneclient that I can't get a deal
done for.
Whether they like it or not is a
different story, right?I can present you with an offer
(05:39):
and you say, I don't like that.
Well, at least I was able to get
you an offer.
Whereas at the bank, I used to
have to say, sorry, you don't fitinto our box and we can't do the
deal for you.
So now I can say yes to everybody
in one way or another.
Yeah.
It's allowed the business toblossom and bloom and explode.
blossom and bloom and explode.
(06:00):
That's amazing.
So I'll say yes, but you might notlike the rate.
Or do I not like the down payment?Exactly.
But talk about that learning.
Do you feel like you're a better
mortgage professional now forhaving learned all that?
I actually feel like I am amortgage professional now.
I am a mortgage professional now.
Yeah.
Because I can come up withdifferent scenarios, different
options.
It's like a puzzle and I can make
it fit one way or another.
Whereas the other way, I was more
of an order taker.
And, oh, you want a five -year
(06:20):
fix?Okay.
We have a variable too.
No.
Okay.
Done.
Well, I can say.
arm, variable, fixed, five -year,
three -year, two -year, right?There's just so many different
options, so many strategies I canuse on this side, you know, as far
as cashbacks to help you pay for apenalty to get you into a lower
rate, like for anybody who's, youknow, had to renew in the last
year and a half and had to get inthose rates above five and a half.
(06:44):
Well, I mean, we can do somethingwith the cashback that'll at least
lower your rate.
help you pay your penalty and get
you into a better monthly paymentand a better situation for you.
I wouldn't have had those optionsat the time being with the bank.
And I suppose you'd probably alsocome to learn, you know, managing
the all channel and privatebusiness and things like that.
You can take the client who'smaybe least qualified today, but
(07:06):
has cashflow to afford the house.
And you could take it from one
lender product to the next lenderproduct to the next lender product
and take it from private.
It's a prime.
We create them a roadmap now.
create them a roadmap now.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you know, normally they go totheir banks and they're not AAA
clients.
So they say no. And then they come
to us and we put them on that roadto in one year, two year, three
(07:27):
year, get them back to the Alending side.
Yeah.
Right.
So what are the majority of yourclients that you're seeing
nowadays?And maybe that's different for you
from other agents at your businessbecause you still originate
yourself.
Correct.
And then you have a team ofagents.
But what are you guys seeing interms of makeup or mix from prime
to alternative business?We're probably, I would say, 75
prime business.
Okay.
(07:47):
And then that's pretty high,actually, for a broker.
Yeah.
But I mean, I come from a bank,
which was all A. So as they comeup for renewal and in the next two
years, having 80 % of all therenewals coming due, those are all
A clients, right?Yep.
Unless they fell apart in hardtimes, there's still going to be A
clients.
So the bulk of our business is the
(08:07):
A side, but we have great, greatrelationships with the B lenders
or alt as you go and the mix andthe privates.
So we have so many options.
It's great.
Would you think that you would beable to build what you have now
had you not spent all those yearsat the bank?
Because, you know, you mentionedthe fact that a lot of those
clients are actually past clientsthat you had from the bank.
(08:29):
And, you know, I'm sure you didthe right thing and to take a
whole database with you, but youhave relationships.
Those clients came back.
Correct.
It's the relationships and theability to get things done.
have now and the ability to getthings done.
I was not always everybody's firstchoice, but.
I was definitely their secondchoice if their first choice ended
up not getting it done and I couldmake it happen.
(08:51):
And that's where I kind of gotthat super mortgage man, super
mortgage team idea because I wasable to get things approved and
done and think differently.
So if I started off at the banks,
I would have been taught to thinkinside the box.
And otherwise, because I came fromoutside the industry into this, I
was able to think outside the boxand say, well, if you take this
and you do this, then.
This actually works.
And, you know, I did a more commonsense approach of lending and most
of the lenders love the way westructure deals and we'll approve
(09:13):
them because of our common senseway to approach it.
I mean, it sounds like it's stillan effective strategy, that idea
of, you know, going out becausethe real estate agent, the
financial advisor, the attorney,whoever you're dealing with, they
have probably somebody that theyalready have dealt with for quite
some time.
And I think.
often about the mistake thatpeople make, which is like, Hey,
forget that guy or girl thatyou've been doing business with
all these years.
(09:34):
Just work with me moving forward.
It's not often that effective.
What sounds like you did was go
and say, Hey, it's okay.
You can keep working with them.
If they ever run across a dealthat they can't do, just let me at
least take a chance and have alook at it.
And then you show up like thehero, right?
When you make that deal work,hence a super mortgage, man.
Well, funny story is one of thelocal.
(09:55):
family laws, lawyers in town.
He was in a court case trying to
get the deal settled between thehusband and wife.
Basically, they were saying, oh,the husband can't get a mortgage.
And then this lawyer says, well,use my guy.
He's a wizard.
And then the judge told that guy
to come to me to get the dealdone.
Please use Mr. Lawyer's wizard andget this done.
And we got it approved.
So, yeah.
It'd be funny to see that on acore transcript.
(10:17):
That's awesome.
So as you grow the business and
brokerage that you have now, growthe team, I don't imagine you
started with Seventeen, right?You and Ron, my brother.
You and Ron, and then you startadding to the team now.
What's ultimately the goal for theSuper Mortgage Team?
Because you're doing exactly whatthe band told you you couldn't do,
which is build a business beyond aspecific scale.
That has to be an exciting part ofthe journey.
And I know from growing a team, itprobably also has its challenges.
(10:41):
What are you trying to achieve?We're definitely trying to grow
the business, trying to grow thebusiness, create Supermortgage
Team as a brand throughoutOntario.
Right now, we're trying to expandthroughout southwestern Ontario
and then move from there, talkingto different places, different
areas, different agents from allover the place just to join our
team.
The more people we have, the more
volume we do, the more bonuses forall the agents, which is great
(11:03):
because we share all that witheverybody.
to grow and have a legacy movingon for, you know, the children, my
children, my brother's children,or anybody's on the team, right?
We have all team members startingto grow sub teams under them now
to grow their own kind of brandall under super mortgage.
So that's the plan.
That's cool.
cool.
Very cool.
Is there sort of a North star whenyou'll, you know, look maybe from
a 10 ,000 foot view and say, wedid it or.
(11:25):
Have you not thought that far?I mean, the North Star will be,
you know, like the way I spent theholidays.
I was in Naples, Florida, stillanswering my phone, you know,
well, on the beach.
So I'll answer, say a couple of
things, talk to my underwriter orone of my other agents, say, OK, I
need you to do this, this andthat.
(11:47):
And that would be success.
I don't think I'll ever retire.
I like it too much.
I enjoy what I do.
Say I truly love what I do.
I really do.
I don't think I'll ever retire.
Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.
If you can love what you do andnot feel like you're working for
the same before that, you know, ifit looks like work to everybody
(12:07):
else, it feels like play to you.
You probably have a good strategic
advantage, right?So a lot of your business, from my
understanding, in ourconversations over the years, what
I know of you is that it's builton relationships, right?
So you've got real estate agentsthat you work with, mentioned
lawyers, founders of trustbuilders, builders have found a
way to trust you.
How have you been able to build
that?I mean, the first thing I tell.
(12:29):
mean, the first thing I tell.
Every one of my new agents is when
your phone rings, pick up yourphone.
Sounds so simple, but that's thedifference between you getting the
deal or them going somewhere else.
Because we're in an immediate
gratification society.
And if you don't pick up your
phone, you're not going to get thedeal.
They're going to go somewhereelse.
I've been fortunate enough toalways live by that rule.
And even if I'm at the kitchentable having supper and the phone
(12:50):
rings, 95 % of the time, I justsay, excuse me, one minute.
I'll at least.
acknowledge them.
Hi, I'm just having dinner.
Can I call you back in 20 minutes?
Right.
And that way it holds that client
steady and they will wait for youfor the 20 minutes.
But when you send them a voicemailor you send them a text, can't
talk right now, they're going tothe next person that can talk
because they need to know whetherthey're going to get their
(13:11):
mortgage.
They need to know whether they can
put an offer in on this house.
And the realtors know that over
Christmas, somebody said, I wasthinking who would pick up their
phone at nine o 'clock on aSaturday night.
So I called you.
I said, that's great.
I better get the deal.
But I did.
That's the reputation that I builtthat people will call me morning,
noon or night, and I'll be therefor them.
(13:31):
And is there a point where youreach in the relationship where
there does become a boundary?I'm thinking about the mortgage
brokers listening right now.
They're thinking like, okay, well,
I'll do that for X period of time.
And then hopefully someday I don't
have to do that anymore.
Or is that just... you know, who
you are.
And it's just like, that's the
promise.
I think that's who I am.
Yeah.
(13:51):
Because there's very successful
brokers that can shut off theirphone, that's the promise.
I think that's who I am.
Yeah.
Because there's very successfulbrokers that can shut off their
phone, you know, at seven o 'clockat night and just not answer it to
the next day.
Yeah.
Right.
So, but I mean, who I am, I like
to get it off my plate as soon aspossible.
So if you put something down, pickit up, get it done, move on.
Yeah.
And like you said, you enjoy it.
And I enjoy it.
(14:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love giving the advice.
I love to.
educate people.
So, you know, a lot of my agentsare brand new and young and they
need guidance and help on everydeal.
So they call at night at nightbecause they're working on
something like pick it up and helpthem through it.
Yeah.
And is that sort of your promise
as you, you know, think about theagents coming in or you're trying
(14:33):
to convince an agent to join yourteam and they ask to join your
team is like, Hey, I'm available.
Yeah.
guiding agents because of that.
agents because of that.
And, you know, somebody who waswith another brokerage said, yeah,
I tried calling my leader and theywere chopping wood and they didn't
have time for me.
I lost the deal.
When you lose the deal, you'relosing money on the table for you
and your family.
So we don't want you ever to lose
the deal.
Yeah.
It's already fine.
Right.
Exactly.
Totally understand that.
that.
Is there some level of pitch?
(14:54):
I mean, trying to understandbecause your business is running
off relationships.
Totally.
You guys don't buy leads, correct?No.
Okay.
So fully relationship -based.
Fully relationship -based.
And, you know, are you still in
the state of your business?I'm sure you have agents who are,
but are you still in the state ofyour business where you're going
out to find new relationshipsright now?
right now?I'm always willing to meet a new
realtor and somebody who's outthere and needs help.
(15:15):
I'll take on new realtors.
Part of the problem is, is, you
know, a realtor will want somereciprocity.
They'll want a lead back orsomething back.
And when you get too many in yourstable, you can't feed all them
else.
Right.
So then.
You have some that stay with you
because they're loyal and theylove what you do.
There's some that say, you didn'tgive me a lead, so I'm going
somewhere else.
They keep score.
Yeah, they keep score, but usuallythey end up coming back because
(15:35):
they want their deal done becausethey get paid a heck of a lot more
on selling that property becauseyou got them approved than they
did on, They keep they want theirdeal done because they get paid a
heck of a lot more on selling thatproperty because you got them
approved than they did on, youknow, maybe a power sale that's
junky or chasing a lead thatwasted their time, even though
they're pre -approved that peoplenever buy or, you know.
(15:57):
Right.
Yeah.
And the one in the hand, right?Like they're working on a
transaction and let's say thecommission for the real estate
agent is going to be $15 ,000.
The most valuable thing you can do
for that real estate agent at thattime is close.
That transaction is not giving thehope of another possible
transaction.
Here's a buyer that you're going
to have to show 300 houses to.
Here's a buyer that you're going
to have to show 300 houses to.
(16:19):
It takes you two years to sell
them a place, right?Yeah.
Yeah.
You got this client.
Let me make sure that this dealgets closed for you.
Yeah.
And just deliver on that over and
over and over again.
And now for what, 18, 19 years?
22 now.
This is my 22nd year.
Okay.
Who's counting?
So what motivates you?I mean, it sounds like hard work,
yet you get up and you do it everyday.
And I'm sort of curious maybe howyour background tied into this
(16:42):
work ethic that you have now.
What keeps you pushing that way?
got this way?I mean, growing up as a farm boy,
you got up early in the morning.
Farm started at 7 a
m., so you're always getting up at6.
Now I'm in the 5 a .m.
club because I read that book,
which...
Shows you your golden hours, which
makes all the sense in the world.
And it's so much more done when
nobody's calling you and walkinginto your office or banging on the
door.
So, yeah, just always used to
getting up early.
And I truly enjoy what I do.
Yeah.
So whether it's 5 a .m.
(17:02):
till midnight, it's not work tome.
And the cool thing about being amortgage broker is I want to go
play golf for four hours in themiddle of the day.
I can't.
Yeah.
It's just time shifting.
And as long as you can time shift
properly.
You're not hurting your clients.
You're not hurting a deal.
And you can do what you want when
you want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That flexibility is key.
Seeing you on the golf course afew times in my own leisure.
(17:23):
Hey, Joe, what are you doing overhere?
You're like, what are you doing?Nobody's getting mortgages today.
Exactly.
So I'm curious because you
mentioned, again, the differenceof broker world.
But another big change for a lotof folks is often technology.
Going from the bank to the broker.
What have you learned about?
broker technology and what existstoday?
How does that compare to what youwere using at the bank previously?
Broker technology is far ahead, isfar ahead, maybe 10 years ahead of
(17:43):
what I had at the bank.
When I was at the bank, our bank
was 10 years ahead of all theother banks.
And then once I seen the brokertechnology, I'm like, oh my God,
this is amazing, right?And the apps we have access to
now, being able to see places likeLender Spotlight, what's being
offered, it's 10 years ahead ofeverybody else.
And then the fact that you canoffer better rates, better
(18:04):
products that you didn't even knowexisted before.
It's incredible being a broker.
You know, I guess it's something I
don't think about often because Icame into market as a broker here
at Rocket Mortgage.
And I came from the U .S.
and I'm thinking that Canada'sbehind.
I guess what I wasn't thinking alot about is the bank and their
origination channel is evenfurther behind that of the broker
channel.
Because I've never used bank
technology from an originationperspective.
What would you say is some of themajor differences?
(18:26):
From a CRM perspective, if I'mthinking about it that way, how
different is it to manage yourclient base?
Were you managing your own clientbase?
When you're at the bank, bank, youare only getting new deals.
Because as soon as you bring thatclient in, that becomes the bank's
client.
It's no longer yours.
The renewals are done at the bank.
Everything's done at the bank.
If they need a refinance, they maycall you back.
(18:49):
You may be able to help themagain.
But for the most part, you've gotto go out and find.
to 300 new deals every singleyear.
Whereas on this side, you findyour 200 new deals, but then you
have people renewing that comeback to you and you can help them
out again.
So you can build an actual
business, an actual legacy andyour own pension here.
Like the bank claims, oh, you geta pension here, but their pension
(19:11):
is so minute that if you do 10deals in a year, you've made up
their pension.
Yeah.
You got to do one deal a month tomake up the pension that the
bank's going to give you in thefuture.
So the fact that your clients areyour clients and you can help them
over and over and over again andgive them the best rates possible
(19:31):
and they're not tied in or lockeddown or have to deal with somebody
who's got three months on the jobtrying to give them their mortgage
advice.
It's just so much better.
Anybody who has access to a brokershould be using a broker or
mortgage agent.
Keep them honest.
Go to your bank, see what yourbank's offering.
But nine times out of 10, they'llbe better off with the broker.
Yeah.
And I don't say that because I'm a
broker now.
(19:51):
I say that because that's the
truth.
And I've come to realize that over
the last three years.
And you probably said the complete
opposite before you knew it.
100%.
Right.
You were the bank guy who was
saying, oh, you don't want to dealwith a broker.
I work directly for the bank.
And I'm something you call me.
I'm here.
Yeah.
And now you've seen both sides.
And you say with an honest heart,
I believe, an honest eyes thatbrokers offer a better service to
(20:13):
clients.
Absolutely.
We believe that as well.
We are both a broker and a lender
of our own, which gives us someunique perspective in the market
and that we can offer our ownproducts.
But as a broker, we have fiduciaryresponsibility to clients that
we're giving them the best productisn't always our own products as
well, which I think is a littlebit of an interesting perspective
in the market.
What are you seeing from lender
(20:34):
technology?Because, you know, we talked a
little bit about the brokers.
That mind shift is different.
I didn't even think about the factin the bank world, you're only
getting paid on new mortgages,doing it for the first time.
So you're actually not thatworried about that renewal three
and five years down the line.
You're not thinking about the
fact.
You can't be.
be. You don't get the option to goback to those clients or be paid
on them.
You just hope that you did a good
(20:57):
enough job for it that they'llgive you a referral to their
friends and family.
Gotcha.
So it's like all about that firsttransaction.
And that's why we're relationshipdriven because it has to be
awesome relationship and awesomeclient experience for you to get
that next deal moving forward.
forward.
Gotcha.
When it comes to lender
technology, how tied together wasthe bank's lending technology to
the technology that you were usingto actually like write up the deal
and get it off and submit it?Well, before I left, they just
(21:18):
created a new technology that wassupposed to be somewhat of a CRM
moving forward.
Never actually worked.
I don't know if it works now, butcoming over to the broker side,
that's what our velocity is.
It's a CRM, the origination
program.
Every day I look, you've got to
contact this person, that person.
It's their birthday.
It's their renewal date coming upin three months.
(21:39):
And it's all right in front of meas soon as I open up my laptop.
So I've got the CRM with mymortgage origination program.
And it's brilliant.
Yeah.
What about the lender technology?I guess the one difference would
be now you've got to pop over tosome lender portal to track it.
How does that look for you to havea bunch of tabs saved in a browser
(21:59):
for all the different portals thatare available?
different portals that areavailable?
We are getting to that point whereonce I upload it into the Velocity
system, it'll just automaticallytransfer to the portal, but we're
not 100 % there yet.
We've got about four lenders who
have that ability right now.
But we want to do it across all
lenders.
And same for the documents, like
the client will upload thedocuments to you via velocities.
Yeah.
Make sure everything is, is, as I
said, it was in the application oras they told me it was.
(22:20):
Yeah.
Before we submit the documents to
the lender.
But yeah.
And then I know something that weget asked about often is like the
processing side.
And I heard you mention that you
basically have staff of five or soadmin level.
Is that a document processing?Are they handling client
communication?How does that back you up?
Is that about writing morebusiness as an agent?
(22:40):
Yeah, it's all so that you cantalk to more agents, realtors,
builders, free up your timebecause, you know, sitting there
collecting pay stubs and chasingpeople down for documents is not a
good use of the mortgage agent'stime.
So we have document specialiststhat will go and chase down those
documents.
And then that frees you up an
hour, two hours per deal,depending, right, to have to keep
going back and keep chasing forthese documents.
(23:02):
We don't have to do that anymore.
And it also relieves the stress
where you're arguing with anunderwriter or a fulfillment
person at the lenders saying, youknow, it's 39 .75 hours, not 40.
I mean, come on.
Yeah, well, you put 40 down.
Like I need a new pay stub andthen I got to go back and annoy
the client.
So it hurts the client experience.
Whereas the document specialistwill have looked at that, reviewed
(23:24):
it up front and know to go get itbefore we get frustrated with our
fulfillment people.
Yeah.
At the lenders.
That was probably one of the
hardest things coming over fromthe bank is.
you know, having to argue withthese fulfillment specialists.
My first six months, I thought Imade a mistake and was banging my
head against the wall saying, whydid I do this?
Yeah, this is a good deal shouldbe approved.
(23:46):
Well, it's approved here.
Maybe not here.
But this place will approve it.
And it's the same rate.
They just have differentunderwriting skills or different
underwriting policies, I shouldsay.
Some are even just particularabout the way you write the notes.
Yeah.
And you start to learn all these
little nuances that slowly overtime increase your likelihood.
I mean, there is something to besaid for experience in this
industry, for sure.
Exactly.
The more you know, the more peoplethat you work with, the better
(24:08):
relationship that you have withyour underwriter who's going to
look at it and say, you know, I'vegot 100 deals from Joe before.
I know that he broke 40, but itwas 39 .75.
I'll just fix it for him and we'llkeep moving.
Something to be said for that.
So this fulfillment team, I think
you call them documentspecialists.
Correct.
Which is what we call them here as
(24:29):
well.
How do you define that process for
me a little bit if I'm a mortgageagent listening?
And I'm like, at what point do Ihand over the file?
As soon as you get the commitment.
soon as you get the commitment.
So you deal with the client, youtell them, what would you like?
You want weekly payments, blah,blah, blah.
Do you want insurance on it?Yep, yep, yep.
(24:50):
Once the commitment comes in, wehand all that over.
with their lawyer is this, theywant insurance or not, or they
want life or disability or both,send it all over to them.
And then they'll review thedocuments that I've already
collected because we do docs upfront always.
Okay.
So that like, I don't want to say
that you make 60 grand a year whenreally you make 48 ,000 a year and
(25:12):
you got 12 ,000 bonus or one time,you know, retro pay.
I made 80 ,000 last year.
Well, actually, you only make $70
,000, and that was a $10 ,000retro pay bonus that I can't use
because it's not ongoing.
And they think that they can
afford $400 ,000 when really theycan afford $300 ,000.
And I don't want to send them outwith their realtor and waste the
realtor's time.
you know, shopping for a $400 ,000
(25:34):
house when it's $300 ,000 thatthey can afford, right?
So you kind of have an idea justfor knowledge of what are the
standard documents that would beneeded for a file?
Yeah, we send out what's called aclient experience, called a client
experience, which is an automatedonline app with all the documents
listed, you know, standardtemplates, depending if you're
self -employed, if you're, youknow, a standard T4 employee that
asks for everything and then theclients.
we'll fill that out or we'll fillit out with them and then they
(25:56):
upload or bring in their documentsthat we requested it becomes a
really smooth and easy process andthen from there you basically
you've got a package picturingthis like an assembly line i'm the
mortgage agent now i've got apackage i've got a client i've got
everything they agreed to i've gotthe documents i'm going to pass
that along you're obviouslynotifying the client that hey i've
got a team and then from there youbasically you've got a package
picturing this like an assemblyline i'm the mortgage agent now
(26:18):
i've got a package i've got aclient i've got everything they
agreed to i've got the documentsi'm going to pass that along
you're obviously notifying theclient that hey i've got a team
Anything from this point forward,they're going to make sure that
this gets processed so that we canclose on time.
Please be responsive to them.
All that good stuff.
The documents that you'vementioned for, I forget what you
called it, forgive me, but it'ssort of like a set of documents
(26:39):
that's going to be needed there.
Is that something that's done
through the technology that youuse or is that something that you
guys created?Well, the technology allows you to
create those templates.
those templates.
Okay.
So sending out an online app may
take me two minutes.
Okay.
Right.
And I'll just look, okay, well,
you're not divorced.
So I can eliminate the separation
agreement.
So I just hit the X and it takes
(27:00):
it out.
And it just sends the list that
they need.
And that way, when they go out
shopping, like the most importantthing is that you know what you
can afford up front.
Yeah.
We don't just say, well, you knowwhat?
You make 400 grand a year, you cango shopping for 1 .5 million.
Or no, you actually only make 100grand a year.
So now you got to buy for 500,000.
(27:22):
I don't want you to be looking at1 .5 million when you can only
afford 500 ,000, ,000, right?Yeah.
Speak to the difference if youcould, because I'm going to take
you back to that bank versusbroker.
I mean, in the bank world, banksare known for the exceptions when
deals are pretty far along attimes.
Is there truth to that or is a lotof that myth?
Because, you know, I've heard alot in the broker world of like,
(27:45):
oh, you know, the bank, despitethe fact that my job changed, my
assets aren't what they used to beanymore.
The bank saying that they couldstill get it done magically.
And I hear brokers all the timesay, like, how are they still
doing this deal, this client?They got a new job.
They make less.
Their bank statements don't line
up.
And yet they're getting some
exceptionally.
Is that real?
Like you have to be more diligentup front?
It depends what bank you're at.
what bank you're at.
That certain banks will look atall the documents up front and
then not look again or notquestion it moving forward.
That's a real thing.
That's a real thing.
Unless you brought it to theirattention or there's a significant
change to the deal.
Switched properties.
(28:05):
Oh, you got to relook at thedocuments.
Oh, you just switched jobs.
That might change the situation,
right?Gotcha.
a real thing.
So some banks at certain times
will do the initial pre -approvaland call it good right from the
initial pre -approval providedthat no additional.
There's like certain banks,they'll do the appraisal when the
offer is accepted, like certainbanks, they'll do the appraisal
when the offer is accepted, notthe week before closing.
Right.
Which could hurt things.
(28:26):
Right.
You know, depending where the
market goes.
Right.
They'll verify income today andthat's what you'll be approved on.
And then they won't ask foranother pay stub, even if it
closes 90 days or even like somebuilder deals.
They'll do a builder package wherethey'll say, okay, you're approved
for a year.
Your interest rate is high, but
we'll hold that approval for thefull year to build your house.
your house.
Yeah, I can see where you as a
(28:47):
bank specialist previously, we'vegone out and sold that product to
the market.
Now, instead, you're selling the
fact that I'm going to geteverything up front.
I'm going to get certainty foryou, Mr. and Mrs. Realtor, Mr. and
Mrs. Builder.
I'm going to get certainty for the
client.
Take all the right actions.
So that way, when I say somethingis good, it's good, right?
So now you've got to become thebank.
But you tell them, don't changeyour job.
Don't go buy a new pickup truck.
Don't, you know what I mean?
(29:08):
Yeah.
So just change the approach to the
sale.
Exactly.
A little bit.
And we educate the client a lot
more on this side.
client a lot more on this side.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you're becoming the mortgagebroker for life.
Much different, right?So you're building that
relationship.
Speaking of, you know, building
something for life, it's excitingto watch you and your team grow.
which you are in Windsor Essex.
I'm curious, you mentioned, you
(29:28):
know, building that team, growingit out, but in terms of overall
legacy and impact to wrap up here,what do you want your lasting
impact to be on this industry?Because you've written and closed
many mortgages in your day.
You hold a lot of relationships.
You're building something cool andspecial.
What do you want to be known forsomeday?
I mean, I want to be known asSuper Mortgage Man.
Super Mortgage Man.
I would love to have a national
product.
Right.
Super mortgage team across all ofCanada.
(29:49):
That would be the ultimate goal.
And then, like I said, a legacy
for either a team member who wantsto buy in in the future, like be a
legit shareholder where you canactually have an exit strategy.
See, the bank says that they giveyou a pension, but it's so minute
and they don't tell you the truthwhen they actually promote it to
you.
Right.
This gives you a legacy.
(30:11):
a sort of pension plan because
you'll have a book of businessthat you're able to sell and
you're with the bank.
you're You brought in, you know,
in my case, 10 ,000 mortgages andnot one of them can I have in the
future, right?I can't sell that.
It's not like when you're with adiminutive securities where you
have a book of business and theyhave something that they can sell.
There's a formula that they payyou out and you can have a
(30:33):
retirement.
On the broker side, you can have a
retirement.
You can have something to sell at
the end of the day.
You have a legacy that you can
give to your kids.
You can bring your children on to
help run your book in the future.
And that would be the ultimate
goal.
the ultimate goal.
Yeah, that's very cool.
I mean, it's one of the age old
problems in the industry, right?It's just having something that
(30:56):
you can build, hold on to actuallyhas value.
Eventually you get to the placewhere you pass on.
I know you said you don't everplan on retiring, but.
maybe slowing down to when you'reon the beach, you don't have to
take the phone call.
I want that for you, even if you
don't want it for yourself.
Thanks for joining me today.
Much appreciated.
I love what you and your team are
doing.
The one thing I did want to say is
when I told the team that I wascoming to Rocket to do a podcast,
(31:19):
one thing I did want to say iswhen I told the team that I was
coming to Rocket to do a podcast,they said, are you crazy?
What are you doing?I said, no, you don't understand.
It's not the competition.
There's plenty of business for
everybody.
By us being together and helping
work together and educate people,we are strengthening the broker
side.
We are strengthening our... career
legitimacy out there.
(31:39):
So we should always work together.
Nobody's really the competition.
I used to advertise with one of my
colleagues on the same billboard.
People were saying, is there
competition?Why are you doing that?
No, we're growing the brand.
We're growing the mortgage broker
brand, mortgage agent brand.
We're trying to make things bigger
and better for everyone.
everyone.
So I appreciate that a lot.
(32:00):
I mean, that's a big part of what
we talk about because.
Sometimes people see the name of
the brand and rocket and they knowit's the largest mortgage lender
in the United States.
And they get a little bit spooked
and not thinking, you know, hey,you guys are competition, can't
talk to you, can't collaboratewith you.
It's really a silly mindsetbecause at the end of the day,
people are going to buy and sellproperties.
(32:21):
People are going to renewmortgages.
People are going to continue torefinance with or without us, with
or without you.
And at the end of the day, for us,
it's about brokers.
We believe that brokers are the
best options for clients in ourhearts.
We believe that optionality.
matters in this industry and you
know we want to solve problems anda broker is not just a place that
you go because you don't qualifyat the bank you should start with
(32:43):
the broker who can give you thebest options and the best brokers
will sometimes tell you that thebest product actually is not
through me it's through this bankdirectly and even if that means i
don't do your mortgage today i'mgoing to do your next one or
you're going to send me a referralfor a friend or family member and
i'll do their mortgage And that'swhat makes the world go around in
great relationships.
And they will remember that person
who said that, you know, I'm notgoing to do this mortgage for you
(33:06):
right now, but let me take a shotat your next one.
Right.
And I think that, you know, yes,
we get paid quite well in thisindustry for doing what we do.
But at the end of the day, we areadvisors and we're providing a
service to people and numbers ofmoney follow if they don't leave.
So thanks for being a friend andthanks for supporting the broker
community.
Thank you very much for having me.
Appreciate it.
Thank you for listening to LennonThoughts, sponsored by Rocket Pro.
(00:02):
Today, I'm joined by my friend andfellow mortgage broker, Joe Bondy,
who is out of Windsor, Essex, justlike us here at Rocket.
And Joe and I have a greatconversation.
We talk about his journey fromfarmer to banker to then broker.
We talk about impact andcollaboration in this industry for
mortgage brokers.
We talk about his journey through
(00:23):
this industry and what he'slearned from being a broker and
the ways that you can serviceclients and utilize broker
technology, which according toJoe, is 10 years ahead of the
bank.
So we're going to dive into that
here today.
Please have a listen and thank you
again.
Joe, welcome to Lending Thoughts.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
(00:46):
Absolutely.
I've known each other for quite
some time.
Yes, friends outside of this
place, local to Windsor as well,which is great.
I've learned a lot from you.
I'll have you know that.
Thank you.
Starting out.
So I thought it'd be good to talkto some folks and have them hear
from you as well.
But let's kind of start from the
beginning.
If you don't mind, can you tell us
your life story in 60 seconds orless?
Really quickly, I grew up in afarming family.
grew up in a farming family.
(01:07):
So working in the fields, then as
I got old enough, my dad wouldtake me to the Easter market in
Detroit.
And I learned sales from him.
It was a family run business.
So I've always had that
entrepreneurial spirit.
I was in the tool trade at the
time.
My wife was a realtor and she's a
very successful realtor and won atrip with Bank of Montreal, their
best of the best trip to Cuba.
(01:29):
And I got to meet a bunch of
mortgage specialists.
And I thought, you guys do this.
And you guys are actually prettycool.
I didn't think bankers were cool,but it was pretty good.
And then I said, how do I jointhis culture, this team?
And funny as it may be, I talkedto the regional manager at the
time.
And he said, you know nothing
about mortgages.
Why would I hire you?
I said, yeah, but I know sales.
(01:50):
Sales is you got to learn the
product.
So I learned the mortgage product.
He said, fine, go to SenecaCollege, do your underwriting
course.
So you at least know something
about mortgages.
And growing up with the family, we
always used to play Monopoly.
And that was my favorite game.
It's all about mortgages.
And funny thing is, is the week
that I was writing my exam atSeneca College, one of the
mortgage specialists from Bank ofMontreal quit.
(02:11):
And he called me out of the bluesaying, hey, are you still
interested?I said, funny, I'm writing my exam
on Saturday.
He says, perfect.
Let's write your exam.
Once you pass, we'll go play golf
at Point West.
I'll call it your job interview.
Then I'll put you up for hire.
Then he put me up for hire.
I had to talk to some executivesfrom Toronto.
They're like, you have noexperience.
Why would we hire you?And basically I said, you can
(02:33):
either hire me or I can be yourcompetition.
You probably don't want me to beyour competition.
And so I got hired at Bank ofMontreal and that's where it
started.
Four years later, RBC came
knocking.
I ended up joining them and spent
14 years there and now createdwith my brother, my own brokerage.
All right.
What's the name of your brokerage?
We are part of Dominion LendingCenter's national super mortgage
team.
Awesome.
And we could thank it all toMonopoly of all things.
(02:55):
So the Monopoly growing up as akid, every year we'd have a family
game sitting around the table.
I sell properties and mortgage and
so forth.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
I have a feeling you're not alone
in that.
Like growing up, I have vivid
memories of learning real estatefrom Monopoly as well.
Like how to handle money and buy,hold, sell, all that stuff.
Trade, negotiate deals.
(03:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
What an awesome life skill tolearn at an early age.
I grew up in the landscapingbusiness.
I don't know if you know thisabout me.
I didn't know it.
Yeah.
Entrepreneurial family backgroundand my dad ran a landscaping
company.
So big part of it was sales.
Like we didn't have contractsalespeople.
We did the sales ourselves andfigured out how to communicate
with people and make work happenand work made money happen, make
(03:35):
business happen.
A lot of stuff, how your people
grow and learned a lot of it fromthat.
And then kind of accidentally hada friend, just like.
You and people that I knew werelike, yeah, you should try this
mortgage thing.
Okay.
And fast forward here.
And when you're younger, it's
like, yeah, I'll try anything,right?
Yeah, exactly.
I didn't know exactly what I was
going to do after that.
And it wasn't one of those things
(03:57):
that like your school counselortalks to you about.
Yeah, wasn't one of those thingsthat like your school counselor
talks to you about.
Like, hey, have you thought about
getting into sales or mortgageswhen you're older?
So you just kind of fall into itlike most people, right?
So like me, you didn't want towork in the fields or the dirt
anymore.
to work in the fields or the dirt
anymore.
No, no, no. My dad laughs to me.
My hands are soft now.
Yeah.
I still got some remnants ofcalluses.
So let's maybe talk about thattransition that you made from
(04:17):
banker to broker, really, becausewe're two different worlds, but
much the same in that you stillhave a lot of relationships that
you need to manage.
At the end of the day, you're
doing mortgage deals.
What was that transition like?
What are some of the majordifferences that you noticed from
going to the bank world, in whichyou were most recently at RBC for
14 years, to now running your ownbrokerage with your brother and
(04:38):
some other folks?your brother and some other folks?
Yeah, I mean, the major thing wasthat when I was with the bank, you
had to play by the bank's rules.
You were limited in your growth.
Although I was top 1 % in thecountry for the last eight years I
was at the bank, I couldn't growmy team.
I was allowed two juniors andthree assistants.
And that was it.
And I've asked, I begged, please
allow me to hire more people on.
(04:59):
He said, nope, if you get too big,
then you'll leave too big of ahole if you're to leave.
I said, if you don't let me getbigger, I'm going to leave.
So at the end of the day, mybrother and I, because my brother
was on my team at the time, wewent out and we started our own.
business.
And now we've got 17 agents on our
team and four admin, five admin,actually.
(05:19):
So we're growing in the last threeyears.
You know, the thing about the bankis I used to know everything about
the 10 products we have.
Now I need to know 10 products for
the 38 plus lenders that we have.
So I got to know like 500
different products so that I cangive the clients the best advice.
But, you know, there's not oneclient that I can't get a deal
done for.
Whether they like it or not is a
different story, right?I can present you with an offer
(05:39):
and you say, I don't like that.
Well, at least I was able to get
you an offer.
Whereas at the bank, I used to
have to say, sorry, you don't fitinto our box and we can't do the
deal for you.
So now I can say yes to everybody
in one way or another.
Yeah.
It's allowed the business toblossom and bloom and explode.
blossom and bloom and explode.
(06:00):
That's amazing.
So I'll say yes, but you might notlike the rate.
Or do I not like the down payment?Exactly.
But talk about that learning.
Do you feel like you're a better
mortgage professional now forhaving learned all that?
I actually feel like I am amortgage professional now.
I am a mortgage professional now.
Yeah.
Because I can come up withdifferent scenarios, different
options.
It's like a puzzle and I can make
it fit one way or another.
Whereas the other way, I was more
of an order taker.
And, oh, you want a five -year
(06:20):
fix?Okay.
We have a variable too.
No.
Okay.
Done.
Well, I can say.
arm, variable, fixed, five -year,
three -year, two -year, right?There's just so many different
options, so many strategies I canuse on this side, you know, as far
as cashbacks to help you pay for apenalty to get you into a lower
rate, like for anybody who's, youknow, had to renew in the last
year and a half and had to get inthose rates above five and a half.
(06:44):
Well, I mean, we can do somethingwith the cashback that'll at least
lower your rate.
help you pay your penalty and get
you into a better monthly paymentand a better situation for you.
I wouldn't have had those optionsat the time being with the bank.
And I suppose you'd probably alsocome to learn, you know, managing
the all channel and privatebusiness and things like that.
You can take the client who'smaybe least qualified today, but
(07:06):
has cashflow to afford the house.
And you could take it from one
lender product to the next lenderproduct to the next lender product
and take it from private.
It's a prime.
We create them a roadmap now.
create them a roadmap now.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you know, normally they go totheir banks and they're not AAA
clients.
So they say no. And then they come
to us and we put them on that roadto in one year, two year, three
(07:27):
year, get them back to the Alending side.
Yeah.
Right.
So what are the majority of yourclients that you're seeing
nowadays?And maybe that's different for you
from other agents at your businessbecause you still originate
yourself.
Correct.
And then you have a team ofagents.
But what are you guys seeing interms of makeup or mix from prime
to alternative business?We're probably, I would say, 75
prime business.
Okay.
(07:47):
And then that's pretty high,actually, for a broker.
Yeah.
But I mean, I come from a bank,
which was all A. So as they comeup for renewal and in the next two
years, having 80 % of all therenewals coming due, those are all
A clients, right?Yep.
Unless they fell apart in hardtimes, there's still going to be A
clients.
So the bulk of our business is the
(08:07):
A side, but we have great, greatrelationships with the B lenders
or alt as you go and the mix andthe privates.
So we have so many options.
It's great.
Would you think that you would beable to build what you have now
had you not spent all those yearsat the bank?
Because, you know, you mentionedthe fact that a lot of those
clients are actually past clientsthat you had from the bank.
(08:29):
And, you know, I'm sure you didthe right thing and to take a
whole database with you, but youhave relationships.
Those clients came back.
Correct.
It's the relationships and theability to get things done.
have now and the ability to getthings done.
I was not always everybody's firstchoice, but.
I was definitely their secondchoice if their first choice ended
up not getting it done and I couldmake it happen.
(08:51):
And that's where I kind of gotthat super mortgage man, super
mortgage team idea because I wasable to get things approved and
done and think differently.
So if I started off at the banks,
I would have been taught to thinkinside the box.
And otherwise, because I came fromoutside the industry into this, I
was able to think outside the boxand say, well, if you take this
and you do this, then.
This actually works.
And, you know, I did a more commonsense approach of lending and most
of the lenders love the way westructure deals and we'll approve
(09:13):
them because of our common senseway to approach it.
I mean, it sounds like it's stillan effective strategy, that idea
of, you know, going out becausethe real estate agent, the
financial advisor, the attorney,whoever you're dealing with, they
have probably somebody that theyalready have dealt with for quite
some time.
And I think.
often about the mistake thatpeople make, which is like, Hey,
forget that guy or girl thatyou've been doing business with
all these years.
(09:34):
Just work with me moving forward.
It's not often that effective.
What sounds like you did was go
and say, Hey, it's okay.
You can keep working with them.
If they ever run across a dealthat they can't do, just let me at
least take a chance and have alook at it.
And then you show up like thehero, right?
When you make that deal work,hence a super mortgage, man.
Well, funny story is one of thelocal.
(09:55):
family laws, lawyers in town.
He was in a court case trying to
get the deal settled between thehusband and wife.
Basically, they were saying, oh,the husband can't get a mortgage.
And then this lawyer says, well,use my guy.
He's a wizard.
And then the judge told that guy
to come to me to get the dealdone.
Please use Mr. Lawyer's wizard andget this done.
And we got it approved.
So, yeah.
It'd be funny to see that on acore transcript.
(10:17):
That's awesome.
So as you grow the business and
brokerage that you have now, growthe team, I don't imagine you
started with Seventeen, right?You and Ron, my brother.
You and Ron, and then you startadding to the team now.
What's ultimately the goal for theSuper Mortgage Team?
Because you're doing exactly whatthe band told you you couldn't do,
which is build a business beyond aspecific scale.
That has to be an exciting part ofthe journey.
And I know from growing a team, itprobably also has its challenges.
(10:41):
What are you trying to achieve?We're definitely trying to grow
the business, trying to grow thebusiness, create Supermortgage
Team as a brand throughoutOntario.
Right now, we're trying to expandthroughout southwestern Ontario
and then move from there, talkingto different places, different
areas, different agents from allover the place just to join our
team.
The more people we have, the more
volume we do, the more bonuses forall the agents, which is great
(11:03):
because we share all that witheverybody.
to grow and have a legacy movingon for, you know, the children, my
children, my brother's children,or anybody's on the team, right?
We have all team members startingto grow sub teams under them now
to grow their own kind of brandall under super mortgage.
So that's the plan.
That's cool.
cool.
Very cool.
Is there sort of a North star whenyou'll, you know, look maybe from
a 10 ,000 foot view and say, wedid it or.
(11:25):
Have you not thought that far?I mean, the North Star will be,
you know, like the way I spent theholidays.
I was in Naples, Florida, stillanswering my phone, you know,
well, on the beach.
So I'll answer, say a couple of
things, talk to my underwriter orone of my other agents, say, OK, I
need you to do this, this andthat.
(11:47):
And that would be success.
I don't think I'll ever retire.
I like it too much.
I enjoy what I do.
Say I truly love what I do.
I really do.
I don't think I'll ever retire.
Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.
If you can love what you do andnot feel like you're working for
the same before that, you know, ifit looks like work to everybody
(12:07):
else, it feels like play to you.
You probably have a good strategic
advantage, right?So a lot of your business, from my
understanding, in ourconversations over the years, what
I know of you is that it's builton relationships, right?
So you've got real estate agentsthat you work with, mentioned
lawyers, founders of trustbuilders, builders have found a
way to trust you.
How have you been able to build
that?I mean, the first thing I tell.
(12:29):
mean, the first thing I tell.
Every one of my new agents is when
your phone rings, pick up yourphone.
Sounds so simple, but that's thedifference between you getting the
deal or them going somewhere else.
Because we're in an immediate
gratification society.
And if you don't pick up your
phone, you're not going to get thedeal.
They're going to go somewhereelse.
I've been fortunate enough toalways live by that rule.
And even if I'm at the kitchentable having supper and the phone
(12:50):
rings, 95 % of the time, I justsay, excuse me, one minute.
I'll at least.
acknowledge them.
Hi, I'm just having dinner.
Can I call you back in 20 minutes?
Right.
And that way it holds that client
steady and they will wait for youfor the 20 minutes.
But when you send them a voicemailor you send them a text, can't
talk right now, they're going tothe next person that can talk
because they need to know whetherthey're going to get their
(13:11):
mortgage.
They need to know whether they can
put an offer in on this house.
And the realtors know that over
Christmas, somebody said, I wasthinking who would pick up their
phone at nine o 'clock on aSaturday night.
So I called you.
I said, that's great.
I better get the deal.
But I did.
That's the reputation that I builtthat people will call me morning,
noon or night, and I'll be therefor them.
(13:31):
And is there a point where youreach in the relationship where
there does become a boundary?I'm thinking about the mortgage
brokers listening right now.
They're thinking like, okay, well,
I'll do that for X period of time.
And then hopefully someday I don't
have to do that anymore.
Or is that just... you know, who
you are.
And it's just like, that's the
promise.
I think that's who I am.
Yeah.
(13:51):
Because there's very successful
brokers that can shut off theirphone, that's the promise.
I think that's who I am.
Yeah.
Because there's very successfulbrokers that can shut off their
phone, you know, at seven o 'clockat night and just not answer it to
the next day.
Yeah.
Right.
So, but I mean, who I am, I like
to get it off my plate as soon aspossible.
So if you put something down, pickit up, get it done, move on.
Yeah.
And like you said, you enjoy it.
And I enjoy it.
(14:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love giving the advice.
I love to.
educate people.
So, you know, a lot of my agentsare brand new and young and they
need guidance and help on everydeal.
So they call at night at nightbecause they're working on
something like pick it up and helpthem through it.
Yeah.
And is that sort of your promise
as you, you know, think about theagents coming in or you're trying
(14:33):
to convince an agent to join yourteam and they ask to join your
team is like, Hey, I'm available.
Yeah.
guiding agents because of that.
agents because of that.
And, you know, somebody who waswith another brokerage said, yeah,
I tried calling my leader and theywere chopping wood and they didn't
have time for me.
I lost the deal.
When you lose the deal, you'relosing money on the table for you
and your family.
So we don't want you ever to lose
the deal.
Yeah.
It's already fine.
Right.
Exactly.
Totally understand that.
that.
Is there some level of pitch?
(14:54):
I mean, trying to understandbecause your business is running
off relationships.
Totally.
You guys don't buy leads, correct?No.
Okay.
So fully relationship -based.
Fully relationship -based.
And, you know, are you still in
the state of your business?I'm sure you have agents who are,
but are you still in the state ofyour business where you're going
out to find new relationshipsright now?
right now?I'm always willing to meet a new
realtor and somebody who's outthere and needs help.
(15:15):
I'll take on new realtors.
Part of the problem is, is, you
know, a realtor will want somereciprocity.
They'll want a lead back orsomething back.
And when you get too many in yourstable, you can't feed all them
else.
Right.
So then.
You have some that stay with you
because they're loyal and theylove what you do.
There's some that say, you didn'tgive me a lead, so I'm going
somewhere else.
They keep score.
Yeah, they keep score, but usuallythey end up coming back because
(15:35):
they want their deal done becausethey get paid a heck of a lot more
on selling that property becauseyou got them approved than they
did on, They keep they want theirdeal done because they get paid a
heck of a lot more on selling thatproperty because you got them
approved than they did on, youknow, maybe a power sale that's
junky or chasing a lead thatwasted their time, even though
they're pre -approved that peoplenever buy or, you know.
(15:57):
Right.
Yeah.
And the one in the hand, right?Like they're working on a
transaction and let's say thecommission for the real estate
agent is going to be $15 ,000.
The most valuable thing you can do
for that real estate agent at thattime is close.
That transaction is not giving thehope of another possible
transaction.
Here's a buyer that you're going
to have to show 300 houses to.
Here's a buyer that you're going
to have to show 300 houses to.
(16:19):
It takes you two years to sell
them a place, right?Yeah.
Yeah.
You got this client.
Let me make sure that this dealgets closed for you.
Yeah.
And just deliver on that over and
over and over again.
And now for what, 18, 19 years?
22 now.
This is my 22nd year.
Okay.
Who's counting?
So what motivates you?I mean, it sounds like hard work,
yet you get up and you do it everyday.
And I'm sort of curious maybe howyour background tied into this
(16:42):
work ethic that you have now.
What keeps you pushing that way?
got this way?I mean, growing up as a farm boy,
you got up early in the morning.
Farm started at 7 a
m., so you're always getting up at6.
Now I'm in the 5 a .m.
club because I read that book,
which...
Shows you your golden hours, which
makes all the sense in the world.
And it's so much more done when
nobody's calling you and walkinginto your office or banging on the
door.
So, yeah, just always used to
getting up early.
And I truly enjoy what I do.
Yeah.
So whether it's 5 a .m.
(17:02):
till midnight, it's not work tome.
And the cool thing about being amortgage broker is I want to go
play golf for four hours in themiddle of the day.
I can't.
Yeah.
It's just time shifting.
And as long as you can time shift
properly.
You're not hurting your clients.
You're not hurting a deal.
And you can do what you want when
you want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That flexibility is key.
Seeing you on the golf course afew times in my own leisure.
(17:23):
Hey, Joe, what are you doing overhere?
You're like, what are you doing?Nobody's getting mortgages today.
Exactly.
So I'm curious because you
mentioned, again, the differenceof broker world.
But another big change for a lotof folks is often technology.
Going from the bank to the broker.
What have you learned about?
broker technology and what existstoday?
How does that compare to what youwere using at the bank previously?
Broker technology is far ahead, isfar ahead, maybe 10 years ahead of
(17:43):
what I had at the bank.
When I was at the bank, our bank
was 10 years ahead of all theother banks.
And then once I seen the brokertechnology, I'm like, oh my God,
this is amazing, right?And the apps we have access to
now, being able to see places likeLender Spotlight, what's being
offered, it's 10 years ahead ofeverybody else.
And then the fact that you canoffer better rates, better
(18:04):
products that you didn't even knowexisted before.
It's incredible being a broker.
You know, I guess it's something I
don't think about often because Icame into market as a broker here
at Rocket Mortgage.
And I came from the U .S.
and I'm thinking that Canada'sbehind.
I guess what I wasn't thinking alot about is the bank and their
origination channel is evenfurther behind that of the broker
channel.
Because I've never used bank
technology from an originationperspective.
What would you say is some of themajor differences?
(18:26):
From a CRM perspective, if I'mthinking about it that way, how
different is it to manage yourclient base?
Were you managing your own clientbase?
When you're at the bank, bank, youare only getting new deals.
Because as soon as you bring thatclient in, that becomes the bank's
client.
It's no longer yours.
The renewals are done at the bank.
Everything's done at the bank.
If they need a refinance, they maycall you back.
(18:49):
You may be able to help themagain.
But for the most part, you've gotto go out and find.
to 300 new deals every singleyear.
Whereas on this side, you findyour 200 new deals, but then you
have people renewing that comeback to you and you can help them
out again.
So you can build an actual
business, an actual legacy andyour own pension here.
Like the bank claims, oh, you geta pension here, but their pension
(19:11):
is so minute that if you do 10deals in a year, you've made up
their pension.
Yeah.
You got to do one deal a month tomake up the pension that the
bank's going to give you in thefuture.
So the fact that your clients areyour clients and you can help them
over and over and over again andgive them the best rates possible
(19:31):
and they're not tied in or lockeddown or have to deal with somebody
who's got three months on the jobtrying to give them their mortgage
advice.
It's just so much better.
Anybody who has access to a brokershould be using a broker or
mortgage agent.
Keep them honest.
Go to your bank, see what yourbank's offering.
But nine times out of 10, they'llbe better off with the broker.
Yeah.
And I don't say that because I'm a
broker now.
(19:51):
I say that because that's the
truth.
And I've come to realize that over
the last three years.
And you probably said the complete
opposite before you knew it.
100%.
Right.
You were the bank guy who was
saying, oh, you don't want to dealwith a broker.
I work directly for the bank.
And I'm something you call me.
I'm here.
Yeah.
And now you've seen both sides.
And you say with an honest heart,
I believe, an honest eyes thatbrokers offer a better service to
(20:13):
clients.
Absolutely.
We believe that as well.
We are both a broker and a lender
of our own, which gives us someunique perspective in the market
and that we can offer our ownproducts.
But as a broker, we have fiduciaryresponsibility to clients that
we're giving them the best productisn't always our own products as
well, which I think is a littlebit of an interesting perspective
in the market.
What are you seeing from lender
(20:34):
technology?Because, you know, we talked a
little bit about the brokers.
That mind shift is different.
I didn't even think about the factin the bank world, you're only
getting paid on new mortgages,doing it for the first time.
So you're actually not thatworried about that renewal three
and five years down the line.
You're not thinking about the
fact.
You can't be.
be. You don't get the option to goback to those clients or be paid
on them.
You just hope that you did a good
(20:57):
enough job for it that they'llgive you a referral to their
friends and family.
Gotcha.
So it's like all about that firsttransaction.
And that's why we're relationshipdriven because it has to be
awesome relationship and awesomeclient experience for you to get
that next deal moving forward.
forward.
Gotcha.
When it comes to lender
technology, how tied together wasthe bank's lending technology to
the technology that you were usingto actually like write up the deal
and get it off and submit it?Well, before I left, they just
(21:18):
created a new technology that wassupposed to be somewhat of a CRM
moving forward.
Never actually worked.
I don't know if it works now, butcoming over to the broker side,
that's what our velocity is.
It's a CRM, the origination
program.
Every day I look, you've got to
contact this person, that person.
It's their birthday.
It's their renewal date coming upin three months.
(21:39):
And it's all right in front of meas soon as I open up my laptop.
So I've got the CRM with mymortgage origination program.
And it's brilliant.
Yeah.
What about the lender technology?I guess the one difference would
be now you've got to pop over tosome lender portal to track it.
How does that look for you to havea bunch of tabs saved in a browser
(21:59):
for all the different portals thatare available?
different portals that areavailable?
We are getting to that point whereonce I upload it into the Velocity
system, it'll just automaticallytransfer to the portal, but we're
not 100 % there yet.
We've got about four lenders who
have that ability right now.
But we want to do it across all
lenders.
And same for the documents, like
the client will upload thedocuments to you via velocities.
Yeah.
Make sure everything is, is, as I
said, it was in the application oras they told me it was.
(22:20):
Yeah.
Before we submit the documents to
the lender.
But yeah.
And then I know something that weget asked about often is like the
processing side.
And I heard you mention that you
basically have staff of five or soadmin level.
Is that a document processing?Are they handling client
communication?How does that back you up?
Is that about writing morebusiness as an agent?
(22:40):
Yeah, it's all so that you cantalk to more agents, realtors,
builders, free up your timebecause, you know, sitting there
collecting pay stubs and chasingpeople down for documents is not a
good use of the mortgage agent'stime.
So we have document specialiststhat will go and chase down those
documents.
And then that frees you up an
hour, two hours per deal,depending, right, to have to keep
going back and keep chasing forthese documents.
(23:02):
We don't have to do that anymore.
And it also relieves the stress
where you're arguing with anunderwriter or a fulfillment
person at the lenders saying, youknow, it's 39 .75 hours, not 40.
I mean, come on.
Yeah, well, you put 40 down.
Like I need a new pay stub andthen I got to go back and annoy
the client.
So it hurts the client experience.
Whereas the document specialistwill have looked at that, reviewed
(23:24):
it up front and know to go get itbefore we get frustrated with our
fulfillment people.
Yeah.
At the lenders.
That was probably one of the
hardest things coming over fromthe bank is.
you know, having to argue withthese fulfillment specialists.
My first six months, I thought Imade a mistake and was banging my
head against the wall saying, whydid I do this?
Yeah, this is a good deal shouldbe approved.
(23:46):
Well, it's approved here.
Maybe not here.
But this place will approve it.
And it's the same rate.
They just have differentunderwriting skills or different
underwriting policies, I shouldsay.
Some are even just particularabout the way you write the notes.
Yeah.
And you start to learn all these
little nuances that slowly overtime increase your likelihood.
I mean, there is something to besaid for experience in this
industry, for sure.
Exactly.
The more you know, the more peoplethat you work with, the better
(24:08):
relationship that you have withyour underwriter who's going to
look at it and say, you know, I'vegot 100 deals from Joe before.
I know that he broke 40, but itwas 39 .75.
I'll just fix it for him and we'llkeep moving.
Something to be said for that.
So this fulfillment team, I think
you call them documentspecialists.
Correct.
Which is what we call them here as
(24:29):
well.
How do you define that process for
me a little bit if I'm a mortgageagent listening?
And I'm like, at what point do Ihand over the file?
As soon as you get the commitment.
soon as you get the commitment.
So you deal with the client, youtell them, what would you like?
You want weekly payments, blah,blah, blah.
Do you want insurance on it?Yep, yep, yep.
(24:50):
Once the commitment comes in, wehand all that over.
with their lawyer is this, theywant insurance or not, or they
want life or disability or both,send it all over to them.
And then they'll review thedocuments that I've already
collected because we do docs upfront always.
Okay.
So that like, I don't want to say
that you make 60 grand a year whenreally you make 48 ,000 a year and
(25:12):
you got 12 ,000 bonus or one time,you know, retro pay.
I made 80 ,000 last year.
Well, actually, you only make $70
,000, and that was a $10 ,000retro pay bonus that I can't use
because it's not ongoing.
And they think that they can
afford $400 ,000 when really theycan afford $300 ,000.
And I don't want to send them outwith their realtor and waste the
realtor's time.
you know, shopping for a $400 ,000
(25:34):
house when it's $300 ,000 thatthey can afford, right?
So you kind of have an idea justfor knowledge of what are the
standard documents that would beneeded for a file?
Yeah, we send out what's called aclient experience, called a client
experience, which is an automatedonline app with all the documents
listed, you know, standardtemplates, depending if you're
self -employed, if you're, youknow, a standard T4 employee that
asks for everything and then theclients.
we'll fill that out or we'll fillit out with them and then they
(25:56):
upload or bring in their documentsthat we requested it becomes a
really smooth and easy process andthen from there you basically
you've got a package picturingthis like an assembly line i'm the
mortgage agent now i've got apackage i've got a client i've got
everything they agreed to i've gotthe documents i'm going to pass
that along you're obviouslynotifying the client that hey i've
got a team and then from there youbasically you've got a package
picturing this like an assemblyline i'm the mortgage agent now
(26:18):
i've got a package i've got aclient i've got everything they
agreed to i've got the documentsi'm going to pass that along
you're obviously notifying theclient that hey i've got a team
Anything from this point forward,they're going to make sure that
this gets processed so that we canclose on time.
Please be responsive to them.
All that good stuff.
The documents that you'vementioned for, I forget what you
called it, forgive me, but it'ssort of like a set of documents
(26:39):
that's going to be needed there.
Is that something that's done
through the technology that youuse or is that something that you
guys created?Well, the technology allows you to
create those templates.
those templates.
Okay.
So sending out an online app may
take me two minutes.
Okay.
Right.
And I'll just look, okay, well,
you're not divorced.
So I can eliminate the separation
agreement.
So I just hit the X and it takes
(27:00):
it out.
And it just sends the list that
they need.
And that way, when they go out
shopping, like the most importantthing is that you know what you
can afford up front.
Yeah.
We don't just say, well, you knowwhat?
You make 400 grand a year, you cango shopping for 1 .5 million.
Or no, you actually only make 100grand a year.
So now you got to buy for 500,000.
(27:22):
I don't want you to be looking at1 .5 million when you can only
afford 500 ,000, ,000, right?Yeah.
Speak to the difference if youcould, because I'm going to take
you back to that bank versusbroker.
I mean, in the bank world, banksare known for the exceptions when
deals are pretty far along attimes.
Is there truth to that or is a lotof that myth?
Because, you know, I've heard alot in the broker world of like,
(27:45):
oh, you know, the bank, despitethe fact that my job changed, my
assets aren't what they used to beanymore.
The bank saying that they couldstill get it done magically.
And I hear brokers all the timesay, like, how are they still
doing this deal, this client?They got a new job.
They make less.
Their bank statements don't line
up.
And yet they're getting some
exceptionally.
Is that real?
Like you have to be more diligentup front?
It depends what bank you're at.
what bank you're at.
That certain banks will look atall the documents up front and
then not look again or notquestion it moving forward.
That's a real thing.
That's a real thing.
Unless you brought it to theirattention or there's a significant
change to the deal.
Switched properties.
(28:05):
Oh, you got to relook at thedocuments.
Oh, you just switched jobs.
That might change the situation,
right?Gotcha.
a real thing.
So some banks at certain times
will do the initial pre -approvaland call it good right from the
initial pre -approval providedthat no additional.
There's like certain banks,they'll do the appraisal when the
offer is accepted, like certainbanks, they'll do the appraisal
when the offer is accepted, notthe week before closing.
Right.
Which could hurt things.
(28:26):
Right.
You know, depending where the
market goes.
Right.
They'll verify income today andthat's what you'll be approved on.
And then they won't ask foranother pay stub, even if it
closes 90 days or even like somebuilder deals.
They'll do a builder package wherethey'll say, okay, you're approved
for a year.
Your interest rate is high, but
we'll hold that approval for thefull year to build your house.
your house.
Yeah, I can see where you as a
(28:47):
bank specialist previously, we'vegone out and sold that product to
the market.
Now, instead, you're selling the
fact that I'm going to geteverything up front.
I'm going to get certainty foryou, Mr. and Mrs. Realtor, Mr. and
Mrs. Builder.
I'm going to get certainty for the
client.
Take all the right actions.
So that way, when I say somethingis good, it's good, right?
So now you've got to become thebank.
But you tell them, don't changeyour job.
Don't go buy a new pickup truck.
Don't, you know what I mean?
(29:08):
Yeah.
So just change the approach to the
sale.
Exactly.
A little bit.
And we educate the client a lot
client a lot more on this side.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you're becoming the mortgagebroker for life.
Much different, right?So you're building that
relationship.
Speaking of, you know, building
something for life, it's excitingto watch you and your team grow.
which you are in Windsor Essex.
I'm curious, you mentioned, you
(29:28):
know, building that team, growingit out, but in terms of overall
legacy and impact to wrap up here,what do you want your lasting
impact to be on this industry?Because you've written and closed
many mortgages in your day.
You hold a lot of relationships.
You're building something cool andspecial.
What do you want to be known forsomeday?
I mean, I want to be known asSuper Mortgage Man.
Super Mortgage Man.
I would love to have a national
product.
Right.
Super mortgage team across all ofCanada.
(29:49):
That would be the ultimate goal.
And then, like I said, a legacy
for either a team member who wantsto buy in in the future, like be a
legit shareholder where you canactually have an exit strategy.
See, the bank says that they giveyou a pension, but it's so minute
and they don't tell you the truthwhen they actually promote it to
you.
Right.
This gives you a legacy.
(30:11):
a sort of pension plan because
you'll have a book of businessthat you're able to sell and
you're with the bank.
you're You brought in, you know,
in my case, 10 ,000 mortgages andnot one of them can I have in the
future, right?I can't sell that.
It's not like when you're with adiminutive securities where you
have a book of business and theyhave something that they can sell.
There's a formula that they payyou out and you can have a
(30:33):
retirement.
On the broker side, you can have a
retirement.
You can have something to sell at
the end of the day.
You have a legacy that you can
give to your kids.
You can bring your children on to
help run your book in the future.
And that would be the ultimate
goal.
the ultimate goal.
Yeah, that's very cool.
I mean, it's one of the age old
problems in the industry, right?It's just having something that
(30:56):
you can build, hold on to actuallyhas value.
Eventually you get to the placewhere you pass on.
I know you said you don't everplan on retiring, but.
maybe slowing down to when you'reon the beach, you don't have to
take the phone call.
I want that for you, even if you
don't want it for yourself.
Thanks for joining me today.
Much appreciated.
I love what you and your team are
doing.
The one thing I did want to say is
when I told the team that I wascoming to Rocket to do a podcast,
(31:19):
one thing I did want to say iswhen I told the team that I was
coming to Rocket to do a podcast,they said, are you crazy?
What are you doing?I said, no, you don't understand.
It's not the competition.
There's plenty of business for
everybody.
By us being together and helping
work together and educate people,we are strengthening the broker
side.
We are strengthening our... career
legitimacy out there.
(31:39):
So we should always work together.
Nobody's really the competition.
I used to advertise with one of my
colleagues on the same billboard.
People were saying, is there
competition?Why are you doing that?
No, we're growing the brand.
We're growing the mortgage broker
brand, mortgage agent brand.
We're trying to make things bigger
and better for everyone.
everyone.
So I appreciate that a lot.
(32:00):
I mean, that's a big part of what
we talk about because.
Sometimes people see the name of
the brand and rocket and they knowit's the largest mortgage lender
in the United States.
And they get a little bit spooked
and not thinking, you know, hey,you guys are competition, can't
talk to you, can't collaboratewith you.
It's really a silly mindsetbecause at the end of the day,
people are going to buy and sellproperties.
(32:21):
People are going to renewmortgages.
People are going to continue torefinance with or without us, with
or without you.
And at the end of the day, for us,
it's about brokers.
We believe that brokers are the
best options for clients in ourhearts.
We believe that optionality.
matters in this industry and you
know we want to solve problems anda broker is not just a place that
you go because you don't qualifyat the bank you should start with
(32:43):
the broker who can give you thebest options and the best brokers
will sometimes tell you that thebest product actually is not
through me it's through this bankdirectly and even if that means i
don't do your mortgage today i'mgoing to do your next one or
you're going to send me a referralfor a friend or family member and
i'll do their mortgage And that'swhat makes the world go around in
great relationships.
And they will remember that person
who said that, you know, I'm notgoing to do this mortgage for you
(33:06):
right now, but let me take a shotat your next one.
Right.
And I think that, you know, yes,
we get paid quite well in thisindustry for doing what we do.
But at the end of the day, we areadvisors and we're providing a
service to people and numbers ofmoney follow if they don't leave.
So thanks for being a friend andthanks for supporting the broker
community.
Thank you very much for having me.
Appreciate it.
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