January 29, 2025 • 36 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Bekim is joined by Gord Appel. Gord is a Co-Founder and Managing Partner at Indi Mortgage, formerly Axiom Mortgage Solutions, from Calgary, Alberta. Being in sales his whole life, everything from door-to-door vacuum sales to retail electronics, Gord was able to develop the soft skills that have become a major key to his success. Gord has been in mortgages for 20 years now, and running Indi Mortgage for the last five and a half with his business partner, Gord Ross, and their silent partner, Tanya Appel, and has become a respected leader in the mortgage industry.
Gord is here to discuss: → How you can start your mortgage business with $50, advice to new agents, and why you should never say, "I'm a mortgage broker". → How to market to your sphere of influence, why friends and family won't work with you, and the importance of patience in long sales cycles. → Being present as a leader, the power of listening, and Indi's broker-centric approach to business.
Indi Mortgage Website: www.indimortgage.ca
Indi Mortgage LinkedIn: @IndiMortgage
Gord Appel's Email: gord.appel@indimortgage.ca
Gord Appel's LinkedIn: @GordAppel
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Lending Thoughts,
(00:02):
sponsored by Rocket Pro.
Today, I'm joined by Gord Apple.
Gord is one of the co -foundersand leaders of...
Indie Mortgage, which is a growingmortgage brokerage currently in
six provinces.
Gordon and I have an awesome
discussion.
Talks about how you could start
your mortgage business with $50 ata coffee shop, which I thought was
(00:23):
a phenomenal idea.
We talk a little bit about friends
and family and how they may not bethe best clients to go after when
you're first building yourmortgage business.
And we talk about being present asa leader.
So make sure to listen in.
It's a great conversation.
Gord, thanks for joining me today.
Happy to be here.
(00:45):
Absolutely.
So pleasure to have you on.
Our teams work together and workwell together.
So excited to have you talk to theaudience today.
And I always like to just start bygiving people some information
about you and taking it inwhatever direction you want to go.
So can you tell us your life storyin 60 seconds or less, please?
Well, I'm getting pretty old, so60 seconds is not a long time.
But I've been in the mortgagebusiness now 20 years, been in
(01:05):
sales my whole life, and I'velived across the country.
Like I said, I've been in themortgage business now for 20
years, running Indy Mortgage forthe last five and a half with my
business partner, Gord Ross, andour silent, not -so -silent
partner, Tanya Appel.
We've been humming along.
So that's maybe 60 seconds, notwhole life, but kind of gives you
a bit of a thing to talk about.
(01:26):
It's helpful.
helpful.
You said sales, always sales.
Was it always mortgage or was itother types of sales before
mortgage that sort of like led tomortgage?
And I'm curious how you... endedup in mortgage or as some people
say, like fell into mortgagebecause very few people choose it.
You know, sales has been a varietyof different things.
I've done it all from door to doorvacuum sales, believe it or not.
That's real sales.
It's hardcore.
It wasn't for me, but I did do itfor a little while.
(01:47):
And I have a lot of respect forthose that do it.
So it's, yeah, definitelysomething that helped with skills
development.
Retail sales was something
similar.
I worked at Future Shop for a
bunch of years and, you know, fellinto mortgages.
I didn't fall into it.
I feel like it was... coerced.
I had a good friend that was inthe business.
And we were talking about theindustry as a whole.
And it never really occurred to meto become a mortgage broker.
(02:09):
Every time I thought aboutentering the real estate business,
I thought about being a realtorand dragging people all over town
and showing them 50 stinky housesor whatever the case was really
didn't appeal to me.
But I was always drawn to the real
estate industry, whether that wasbecause of That personal
connection, having moved aroundquite a bit, housing always
mattered to me.
Or if it was because of the big
commissions and being in sales,that was always part of the
(02:31):
formula as well.
But I was very attracted to it.
So when I looked at the economicsof being a mortgage broker, when I
looked at the value that weprovide to the transaction by not
charging fees generally and thatsort of thing, it made a little
bit of sense for me to take adeeper look.
So got registered, took thecourse.
Very quickly fell in love with it.
It took me about 10 deals to close
(02:53):
the first one.
But after that, I was off to the
races.
So the underwriting didn't come
naturally.
No, no, it sure didn't.
I could make the phone ring, but Ididn't.
Yeah, you could sell it, but youcouldn't close it yet.
That took a little practice.
That's funny.
Definitely took some time.
And you were doing that as an
independent agent and sort of likegrowing your book of business,
(03:15):
having conversations.
Who were your first?
you know, mortgages coming from?Were they referrals, family,
friends?You know, know, I would have
thought family and friends weregoing to be my first source of
business, but it literally took mesix years to get a friend to use
me.
And I think it was a little bit
longer than that before a familymember did.
Right before getting into themortgage business, I worked in car
rental.
So people thought I was in car
(03:36):
rental.
For five years, they would call me
to get a deal on cars.
So they didn't think of me as a
mortgage broker.
And that was before the days.
And I know I'm sounding old when Isay stuff like that, but it was
before that is really pumping iton social media.
Unless you were always talking tothem, they didn't think about what
you were doing.
They thought about what you were
doing the last time.
So social media allows us to
really be a lot more present asmortgage brokers.
(03:57):
So that is certainly an advantagethat exists today.
My first deals came from knockingon doors.
I did this thing at Starbuckswhere I would leave $50 with the
barista and tell her I would payfor any of the drinks for anybody
coming in the store.
And I would just sit and work away
on a deal or on my next marketingidea or just do some shopping on
the internet and sit at theStarbucks and just work away on my
(04:19):
laptop.
pay for coffees.
And every now and then someonewould say thank you and I would
engage them in a conversation.
Very rarely did I start with a
mortgage conversation, but thatwould lead to something further
and eventually I would get a leadthat became a mortgage.
And the thing that it made merealize is that our client is
actually adult Canadians.
If you look at the statistics, 66
.5 % of Canadians are homeowners.
So that means they have had or do
(04:40):
have our product.
Nobody walks around, well, very
few people walk around with asuitcase full of money to go buy a
house.
So if you're talking to one of
those 66 .5 % of Canadians thatare already homeowners, they
understand and need or have hadour product.
The other 33 .5%, they want it.
They're the renters that want to
eventually have our product.
So if you're talking to an adult
(05:03):
Canadian, you're talking to aconsumer.
And I found if I could time itright.
The Starbucks between two andthree o 'clock was kind of the
sweet spot.
It was right before school pickup.
So the moms would come in, havetheir coffees, have a chat, and
then they'd take off and go do theschool pickup.
But they were slow enough thatthey could slow down and ask a few
(05:25):
questions.
So that was one of the things that
I did.
I've never heard of this strategy
before.
I did.
I've never heard of this strategybefore.
I thought I heard them all.
You're welcome.
I could spend the entire timetalking to you with just like very
specific details about thatstrategy in itself.
But that is very interesting.
I think it just goes to show
there's so many different ways todo this business.
There's so many different ways.
(05:47):
And to your point, everybody's a
potential client.
Avoid the ball pit at your local
kids' play place.
Other than that, you're probably
talking to potential clients.
And even if you're there, you can
probably talk to one of theparents who's watching their kids
in the ball pit.
And their parents probably own a
house or have aspirations ofsomeday owning a home.
One of my mentors, There's of mymentors, Brian Gentles, always
says, don't be a secret agent.
So, you know, if you could be at a
(06:10):
hockey game, you could be, as yousay, at the ball pit watching your
kids.
But, you know, most people will
ask you what you do.
Have a good answer for it.
I'm a mortgage broker is aterrible answer.
So have a good answer.
And if you have a good answer and
you're continuing a genuineconversation with someone, you'll
make a connection.
And when they need you, they'll
probably use you if you've done agood job in creating a genuine
(06:31):
connection.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
led me into what I was going toask you, which is that, like, how
would you approach thatconversation with all these folks?
You just said, like, actually, Ithink telling people, you know,
I'm a mortgage broker andexpecting them to know what that
means and then do something aboutthat information is actually a
terrible strategy.
And I agree.
So when people ask that question,what would you say?
And what have you saidhistorically?
Is there any one thing or is itchange?
(06:52):
It does change.
I think, you know, very rarely is
it the first question someone willask you.
It will be the first question ifthere is an awkward silence.
But when you first meet somebody,you have an opportunity to talk a
little bit and then.
From there, you're going to
include some of what your responseis when it comes around to the
what do you do or how do you makemoney kind of conversation.
(07:12):
And, you know, often you'll dropsome hints as to what you do.
Oh, the marketplace, this or that.
I remember when the marketplace
was tanking in Alberta, and it'sdone it a few times, but, you
know, we would go out in 2008.
And, you know, obviously there was
a lot of pain in the marketplaceat that time.
And I would go to meet people andthey would...
Look at you with pity.
(07:33):
You're in the mortgage business or
you're in real estate.
Oh, it must be tough.
How are you making ends meet?And that would be a different kind
of opportunity.
So I would say things like, we
actually are in the business ofhelping people like you.
So yeah, it sounds right now youlisten to the radio and nobody's
buying houses, but you're notbuying a house either.
(07:53):
And you probably still want tosave money on the house that you
have.
So that's really where we focus.
We tend to deal with more clientsthat just want to keep the house
they have and save some money onit.
Look at their options.
Maybe they want to consolidate
some debts.
Maybe they want to reduce the
payment that they have, or maybethey want to pay it off even
faster.
So we really focus on people like
you.
So I would pull them into that
(08:14):
conversation that they were askingme about the marketplace.
So it really just sort of dependson what you're doing and where
you're at.
And again, it comes down to
authenticity.
You're a mortgage broker.
You do it for a reason and youunderstand.
what it means to do it, includingthat statement of, I'm a mortgage
broker, is hoping that theconsumer understands what that
means.
They might think a mortgage broker
is a guy wearing a leather jacketthat's going to give you cash
against your house.
(08:35):
They might think that we are the
place that you go when you've gotbad credit.
They might think that if you getdeclined at a bank, that's where
you go.
All these different things, and
all of them are true, but they'regoing to pigeonhole you into some
of... what that is.
And maybe not all are true because
I don't think too many of us arewearing leather jackets standing
around the corner handing outcash.
Not anymore.
But you get the meaning, right?
(08:57):
Yeah.
So I think, you know, having the
answer is really around who'sasking the question.
And being plugged into theconversation you're having.
I mean, it's so true.
If you've spent any time at a
barbecue with friends and familyand tried to just explain to
people that you're a mortgagebroker and ask for the reaction
and ask where they get their lastmortgage from, you'll just get
that information from people allthe time.
(09:18):
And you've probably heard it amillion times.
And you've been doing this longerthan I have.
But like, oh, no, I'm good.
I already, you know, I already
deal with such and such.
And you're like, oh, no, no, no.
So do I. Right?That's right.
Here's the great news.
Yeah, I actually work with them
too.
The difference with me is that,
you know, they're going to giveyou one option.
(09:39):
I have the ability to give youtheir option plus a whole other
suite of options that may actuallybe better than the option that
they've provided to you becauseit's all they have to offer.
And it creates a wholeconversation.
But if you don't start thatconversation the right way, and
especially if you sold vacuumsdoor to door, you know, the first
thing people do is they... puttheir hands up and they say, I'm
not interested.
Or it sounds like you might be
trying to sell me something basedon that leather jacket.
(09:59):
It sort of like leads me into whatI wanted to talk to you about on
the next front, which is that likeyou existed in this industry at a
time where you were your ownmarketer.
as well.
And not only were you marketing
your service, but you were alsomarketing for mortgage brokers.
Now you're running a brokerage inIndy in that you're teaching and
training other folks how to buildtheir business, how to market
themselves and things like that.
But going back to the early days,
(10:20):
like how did you even market toclients what a mortgage brokerage
was?I do think, and you could see
based on the trend, people areusing mortgage brokers more and
more and more.
That is something that we are
deeply passionate about assistingin this industry.
We think that mortgage brokers arethe best for consumers.
We believe that in our hearts.
And what were some of the things
that you were doing early on tojust let people know what would
mortgage brokers do?How did you market that?
(10:41):
So to me, jacket.
to me, it's always been this
constant effort.
All of us need to be doing it.
Promoting the value of workingwith a mortgage broker is not
something that you get to buy abillboard and just everybody reads
and then you're done.
Everybody's educated.
Partly because the landscape isshifting underneath us at all
times.
We're constantly getting new
rules.
We had new rules in the last few
weeks.
(11:01):
So we're going to continue to see
that.
So I think it's really about
communicating with your sphere ofinfluence.
So what I would do is tellstories.
And I would tell stories to thepeople that were in my circles.
And we can do that on social medianow and tell stories about the
people we've helped, the types ofconsumers that we've helped.
Instead of saying, you should workwith me, you can say, somebody
that's like you worked with me.
I just completed a mortgage for
(11:21):
some people that are in the samesituation as you and I got them a
great deal.
They worked with their bank, but
we actually moved them to adifferent bank.
You know, they started withtheirs.
We moved them to a different oneand we got them a better rate or
we got them a better solution orwe got them whatever that
situation was.
But if you tell a story about
something that you've done and youtell a variety of different
(11:44):
stories, eventually your networkwill understand what you do and
will see themselves in yourbusiness.
It could be a referral source.
It could be somebody that you've
met at D &I at a networking group,a realtor, or it could just be
somebody in your family or socialnetwork.
But they need to understand wherethey fit.
And I think storytelling is agreat way to get there.
I love that reframe to tell it inthe form of a story and relate it
(12:08):
to other human beings who are likeme, right?
Because we do that as humans.
We identify ourselves with certain
characteristics.
bucket that into specific groups
and think about our own identity,whether or not we're consciously
thinking about it orsubconsciously identifying as, as
somebody who, right.
So thinking about, you know, being
at that family barbecue and yougot your aunt there with you and
you say that, you know, you domortgages and she says, no, I'm
good.
You know, I get all my.
(12:28):
products from national.
I'm a high net worth client there,
right?They may not outwardly say that,
but they're thinking to themselveslike, I've got a couple hundred
thousand dollars or I've got amillion dollars in assets with X
bank, for example.
And to be able to come back and
say, oh, that's awesome.
Yeah, you probably get really well
taken care of there.
In fact, I was just helping this
(12:50):
family and much the same are inreally good financial shoes.
They're used to getting a prettydecent rate, but just on their
most recent renewal, for whateverreason, the bank just didn't give
them a great renewal offer.
on their mortgage.
So what I actually did, I actuallyshowed them the network program
with such and such, didn't evenhave to get all the usual income
documents, which are often painfulfor folks like you.
(13:12):
I just did a net worth program andmoved them over here and saved a
max amount of money and did thisand did that.
And now they're, they're superhappy and they go home, worth go
home, you know, and aunt istalking to uncle and going, should
we check on that?Right.
Right.
And then just wait, you know?
Yes.
Yes, that waiting is the critical
element of it because you don'twant to try and move in at the
family barbecue.
You just plant the seeds.
(13:34):
She's going to stay your aunttomorrow, the next day, the day
after.
And that's the thing that I think
we often get confused about inthis business is that it is a very
long sales cycle.
And it's a sales cycle that we are
not in control of the timeline on.
So, you know, you could pick up a
client and they signed with theirbank yesterday.
They're going to use you for yournext mortgage.
(13:55):
But they're in for five years.
Does that mean they're not a
client?Does that mean you didn't do a
good job acquiring a client andbuilding your business?
No, it doesn't mean that.
It just means you're not going to
get paid for a while.
So you have to have patience.
And it's the same thing in thescenario you're talking about.
You plant those seeds and thenwait for your aunt to come back to
you.
Or the next conversation, maybe it
(14:15):
goes a little farther.
And maybe you never do business
with your aunt.
Family members are difficult.
Friends are the same.
They don't necessarily want you to
see their credit, their assets.
Most people would like to be
further along in their financialjourney than they are currently.
There's a little bit ofembarrassment associated with it.
Often we get caught up in what wewant out of the situation.
We forget to look at the wholepicture.
(14:35):
And that client will work with uswhen they're ready to.
We just have to... put ourselvesin the right position.
And maybe it's not them, in theright position.
And maybe it's not them, but maybeit's the referral that they give
you.
I think you said it took six years
before friends and family startedworking with you to do their
mortgages.
Was that the reason?
Because I think that for newagents especially, that is one of
(14:57):
the early realizations.
They think they just changed their
Facebook profile and Instagram orwhatever to mortgage broker.
They put out two posts to say,hey, by the way, I do mortgages
now and no one calls them.
And then...
They'll be at their next familyfriend event or something like
that.
And they'll hear in passing
someone that they know and careabout and that loves and cares
about them.
So, yeah, I actually just did my
(15:17):
mortgage with, you know, such andsuch.
And you're going, what?How could you?
could you?You know, right?
Like, you know, we're in the samefriend group chat and we talk
every day and you just got yourmortgage.
Is that a trust thing?Is it fear?
Because I've seen that before,too.
Yeah, I think there's a couple ofdifferent things that it could be.
Certainly, trust can enter intoit, although I think it's less
(15:39):
likely to be trust than it is anelement of embarrassment or a
sense of privacy.
A lot of us were taught we don't
talk about money with our family.
We don't talk about money with our
friends.
And this is effectively like, I'm
going to need to see your paystub.
I'm going to need to see.
you know, some of your asset
statements and I'm going to lookat your credit and I'm going to
see that you missed that paymentor whatever the case is.
And I think that there's anelement of concern there that
(16:02):
people have that embarrassment.
But I think most of that is
overcome with good communication,like most things, right?
And so talking to somebody thatyou're close with, there's a few
different ways that you canapproach that.
If you're new to the industry, newto the business, you might want to
talk to the people that you'reclose with and to say, look, I
need some practice.
Would you mind sending me your
mortgage statement just so that Ican look at it and start to get
(16:26):
some of this knowledge that comesoff of looking at... all of the
different brands statements.
And maybe when I go through that,
I'll see something and I'll letyou know about it.
But really, I'm just looking forsome practice.
So it gives you an opportunity tokind of open the door a little
bit.
And I think, you know, if you
frame it the right way, yourfriends and family will support
you.
What I was doing wrong, the reason
(16:46):
I think it took me a long time toget that is I wasn't framing it in
the right way.
I would ask my brother or my
parents for business, but I reallydidn't go much beyond that.
And they used me when theirs cameup for renewal.
So probably was around five years,whatever the case was.
But, you know, getting furtherinto the friendship circle and
into the family circle took theestablishment of that expertise.
So being positioned as an expertisn't the same as just being
(17:07):
positioned as a practitioner.
And in order to get my family on
side, they needed to see me as anexpert because they had seen me my
whole life or a good chunk of it.
They saw me when I was.
you know, long hair skateboardingand believed I could be in a band
for a career.
And they saw me sort of bounce
around and sell vacuums for a bitand do these other things.
And so they, you know, probablyweren't feeling that level of
comfort that I was going to be theguy to trust their most important
(17:32):
debt to and this most importantthing that they have.
So we have to remember also thateven though we want it, it's not
necessarily what we want.
In fact, it's got very little to
do with what we want as to whetheror not.
we get that transaction.
It is all about the consumer and
making sure that they feel that weare going to be the best source
for them to accomplish theirgoals.
this I mean, you just had methinking, it's so funny because
everyone always wants to startthere with friends and family, but
(17:55):
as somebody who's on the path toexpert, I mean, if you've closed
zero to 10 mortgages, you probablyactually don't want to start with
friends and family, truthfully.
You probably want to get your
practice on a stranger who youdon't have to see at the next
barbecue.
And who probably feels better
giving you direct feedback.
Like they don't want to hurt your
(18:16):
feelings if they're your family.
If they're not, they're going to
tell you, hey, man, you droppedthe ball or I expected better from
you.
if Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
So as you think about peoplebuilding their mortgage businesses
today, we obviously live in a verydifferent world.
Not saying that the Starbucks ideais a bad one for the record.
I might actually start training onthat.
But as you think about the newmortgage agents, I mean, Indy, you
(18:36):
guys have how many mortgage agentstoday, roughly?
We're about 370 today.
370 mortgage agents and new folks
come into the fold.
How do you give them advice when
they ask, where do I go to startbuilding my business?
Because the same way, they mightcome in with the long hair played
in a band and now they learned alittle bit of sales somewhere
else.
And now they're like, hey,
mortgages are my new product andI'm going to make a living here.
(18:59):
And they go to you or some otherfolks on the team and they go,
what should I do to find clients?What do you tell them?
Well, so a couple of things.
First is we are not really a
training shop.
So if you're joining India as a
new broker, you're joining with amentor.
We don't have corporate training.
Training or mentorship are
critical to success, especially atthe beginning of a new career.
(19:19):
Somebody coming out of a bank as abank mortgage specialist and going
into mortgage brokering couldprobably find most of the way
there on their own.
They would still need to have a
good support group around them.
understand the nuance of the
product, the compliance elements,that sort of thing.
But new to industry, we don't hireunless you have a mentor.
And a mentor, it's a two -waystreet.
You both have to want each other.
The mentor has to be willing to
(19:40):
give you their time, their trueexpertise, and you have to be
willing to put the time in to getit.
And that means being on theirschedule, not on your own.
If you have a mentor, somebodywho's worthy of being a mentor is
usually a top producer andsomebody who is going to be busy.
And taking their time when they'rewilling to give it to you is when
you should take it.
(20:01):
So I would say that that is number
one.
What I tell people that are new to
the industry, and I still do talkto a number of new to industry
through my association work or atIndy if they come to us directly.
And I tell them, you know, it'sreally making sure that you know
where your business is going tocome from.
So it might be realtors.
It might be financial planners.
It might be networking groups.
It might be your community
(20:21):
association, wherever it is thatyou're going to get your business
from.
You have to start with knowing
where you're going to get it andthen how you're going to get it.
And the difference between abusiness plan that works and one
that doesn't is an action stepthat goes along with it.
So you can make your businessplan.
I'm going to get my business fromrealtors and I'm going to get it
(20:45):
in this way.
But if you don't transpose that
into your calendar, into specificaction items, protected time to
take that action, your businessplan won't work.
So again, adult Canadians, 66 .5 %of Canadians are homeowners.
If you're talking to adultCanadians or people that work with
adult Canadians, you're talking topotential clients or potential
referral sources.
Be conscious about how you
approach those marketplaces.
If you do that, you'll find some
(21:07):
success.
So you're thinking about actions.
And I like that because one thingI learned, and I'm not sure
exactly where I learned it, soforgive me for not giving the
proper credit, but it's action-based goals instead of outcome
-based goals.
Oftentimes, especially now we're
talking here in January, it's thattime of year, right?
It's that time of year wheneveryone's coming in, they're
going to lose 30 pounds.
But very rarely do people actually
(21:28):
walk that all the way back to talkabout what that looks like in a
single day or a single morning ora single meal or whatever that is.
For me right now, I'll just speakfor myself here.
I'm trying to get healthier.
Health is one of my goals.
And I'm primarily healthy, but Iknow that there's some more steps
that I could take to get myself towhere I want to go.
And what I find is that...
(21:49):
When I focus on the year, I will
often fail.
When I focus on the day, I will
often win at the thing that I amtrying to win at in the day.
It's like, I can't necessarilycontrol the end state.
What I can do is I can scheduleone great day.
And if I have one great day today,followed by one great day
tomorrow, and I have...
250 great days in a 365 -day
calendar year, it's probably goingto get me to where I'm trying to
(22:11):
go for the year.
And if I do that on the most
important things, you said realestate agents, you know, if you're
going to build your businessaround realtors, so what do you
need to be doing?You probably need to be talking to
realtors.
How do you talk to realtors?
You pick up the phone or you getin the car and you start visiting
(22:35):
some offices, go to theconferences or go to whatever and
just go do that.
Like map that out.
What does that look like?Not what's the end state, but like
what things will you need to do?Forget about the achievement.
You might suck for like a reallylong time.
But if you just go do that forlong enough, just like knocking on
doors for vacuums.
I can't imagine many people were
successful immediately out of thegate.
(22:56):
It's like a major shock to thesystem.
The first time you try to sellsomething door to door, I've done
it.
It changes your whole view on
society.
Like you go around to all your
public place and everyone's likesmiling and like waving and
everyone's like super kind, but goknock on someone's door.
They haven't even heard what youhave to sell yet.
And they're treating you terribly.
And you're like, I didn't know
(23:17):
human beings could talk to otherhuman beings.
It is eye -opening.
that first time is eye -opening.
And I actually know an agent thatwent door -to -door selling
mortgages.
That's maybe even more difficult
because it's not tangible, right?And he went and did it for quite a
long time.
In the end, it was a 3 % success
ratio.
He'd knock on 100 doors and he'd
get about three mortgages out ofit.
(23:37):
It's a long effort.
But again, there is no
substitution in this business orin any business for doing the
work.
You can choose that work.
You can choose other work.
But if you don't do any work,
you're not going to get anyresults.
So that's why I say be consciousabout it.
Like take a look at I'm going toget this marketplace.
Great.
Now let's build a strategy.
(23:58):
Great.
Now we got a strategy.
How are we going to implement thatstrategy?
What are we going to do day today, week to week?
to check in that we've actuallyimplemented the right strategy.
And then once we get to certaincheckpoints, let's make sure we're
accomplishing some goals.
To your point, it is absolutely
critical to focus on the stepsonce you've created that plan.
Continuing to go back to the planis where most people fail.
It's not time to plan every day.
You plan once and then you
(24:18):
execute.
And then you check in on your
plan.
is eye then you check in on your
plan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because you could give someoneelse the advice.
Typically, you know the answer.
The answer is do the thing.
So they come in, they've got amentor, new agent, let's say, and
they're building their businessand you've helped people help
people.
And now with you and your
partners, you're spending a lot oftime running the indie business.
(24:40):
What has that transition been likefrom just being a mortgage agent
to the different world in whichyou're in now, which is running a
mortgage brokerage?in the day to day?
And what does that look like foryou?
Yeah, it's actually been a lot offun.
You know, the way we approach itfrom a head office perspective is
very much the way a broker or Iapproached my mortgage business.
And that is that the broker is ourclient.
(25:00):
So we don't transact at the headoffice level.
We don't let anybody do dealsbecause our...
Broker is our client.
We spend a lot of time focusing on
what does the broker need,listening to them and asking them
what do they need because notevery broker is the same.
It's a self -employed environment.
We've got 370 agents.
We've got 370 ways that businessis being done today and being
attracted and being retained.
(25:20):
And that's great.
This is a very personal businessand we attract the type of people
that we want to do business with.
Often, not every single time is it
a person that we've attracted thatwe want to do business with.
But generally, that's the case,right?
So we, as a business... havetreated it that way.
And it's been really awesome tomove into that part of this career
for me personally.
I've enjoyed the way that this
(25:41):
company has grown in the last fiveyears.
We were 94 agents five years agoand 370 today.
And we operate in six provinces.
And, you know, Gord Ross is
definitely the driving forcebehind all of that growth.
And he's stretched.
our skills, my skills, and what I
thought was possible just byvirtue of him saying it is
possible.
So that has been just a really
great dynamic for me as well andhas that personal growth.
(26:03):
Also to see my wife in her bestskills in the marketing
department.
She was a broker for 10 years.
So she got to really know what wedo.
But she's a marketer at heart.
It's what she went to school for.
She's like hardcore when it comesto branding and marketing and
everything else.
So to have her be in that great
skill of hers and watch herflourish to the benefit of our
(26:24):
clients and of our company istremendous.
So it's been a really greatjourney.
Like I said, I love this industryand I love what it's afforded me
personally and allowed me todevelop the skills environment as
well as the financial environment.
So yeah, all good.
Yeah, it's very cool.
Becoming a family business as well
and growing something bigger thanyourself.
Do you think you could have donethat had you not been a mortgage
agent previously?Because I mean, you guys have
(26:46):
built a very agent centric.
brokerage.
Is that because you've done ityourself?
You know, it's hard to say whatyou might have been like had you
not done something.
I did it for about 10 years as an
agent and then moved into someleadership roles after that.
But I think it really is where agood chunk of it comes from.
But, you know, in all of my salesenvironments, everything that I've
(27:10):
done has really been aboutlistening.
So I think that good sales isabout connecting the right things
together.
And the only way you can figure
out what the right things are isif you stop for a minute and
listen.
So really it comes from there and
our willingness and our beliefthat we can always be better.
I love that on listening.
I heard someone say not too long
(27:30):
ago that they did a talk on stageabout tips for becoming like a
better speaker and it went superviral.
And they shortly after followed itup with tips for being a great
listener and like no one watchedit.
Shocking, right?We all want the hack, right?
Just tell me what I need to saywhen the actual hard part is
(27:52):
listening.
And that is actually the more
important skill to being a greatcommunicator and going out and
delivering and selling a productto anybody.
So, I mean, it's what made me wantto start having these sorts of
conversations, oftentimes in theday -to -day leading a mortgage
business.
People look at me and they're
like, okay, now talk.
Yeah, right.
Sometimes I actually would preferto listen.
Sometimes that's why I like tohave these conversations and call
(28:14):
this.
podcast lending thoughts is other
people are letting their thoughtsand hoping that we can share that
with the community.
But I do wonder now, you know,
having gone that route foryourself from agent to broker,
broker owner, and where you liketo spend your time, because you've
gone back to that sales aspectmany, many times.
Like you sound like a truesalesperson at heart and believe
(28:34):
that that is the core of mortgagebrokering is great
salespersonship.
And I often say that sales is
synonymous with communication.
So you're really figuring out how
to like communicate, how to serve,how to advise.
Like that's all a part of it.
And then being able to communicate
that back such that people willwork with you instead of getting
it.
you know, a mortgage, any of the
other thousand places they can goget it.
(28:55):
So like, where do you like tospend your time now?
Like, what do you like doing?You know, I like problem solving
and I like time with our team.
So there's a couple of different
places that I'm really spending alot of my energy right now.
My best contribution to thecompany is in making the company
better.
So what I try to do is solve the
problems, but I only know aboutthe problems when I'm listening.
(29:18):
So I try and get present with theteam.
We have five different groups thatwe've created provincially and
then one national group that isour top brokers from each
province.
And then, of course, they go up to
the national level.
We consult with them twice a year.
I look forward to those times.
I run those meetings.
pull in.
So there's really three purposes
(29:39):
for those meetings.
One is to hear from them, hear
from the street, so to speak,what's going on, what they need,
where their pain points are, wheretheir wins and successes are,
those types of things.
The second is to share with them
what we've been working on from ahead office perspective or things
that we're hearing from otherregions.
(29:59):
And the third is to create acollaborative opportunity for them
to improve their businesses.
And so we do that twice a year in
all the regions and we do thenational one as well.
I spend time with all thedepartment heads making.
sure that when we deliver, we aredelivering on our promises.
So that means that making sure ourpromises are aligned with our
actions, but also that our actionsare aligned with our promises.
(30:23):
So talking to the sales team isdifferent from talking to the
administration team, the inverseof the same conversation.
But that's really where I spend myenergy is in making sure that we
are the best that we can be, thatwe're looking for opportunities
for constant improvement, and thatwe are delivering on the promises
that we've made to the people thathave been onboarded to this
(30:45):
company.
So why do mortgage agents come to
Indie Mortgage and why do theystay then?
I think the biggest thing about itis that we're good.
And by good, I mean, we treatpeople well, we are transparent,
we're honest, we're hardworking,we do what we say we're going to
do.
We're transparent about it.
So if there's something going on,you'll know about it.
If there's compensation beingreceived, you'll know about it.
(31:06):
We pay twice a week because Wewant to make sure that agents get
what they're doing this for, whichis to provide for their families
and for their goals.
You know, we go out of our way to
be that way.
And I think that's the reason
brokers stay.
And I think the reason brokers
join us in the first place isbecause they're looking for
something that is the rightbalance between being self
(31:26):
-employed and being employed.
Looking for the stability and
comfort of a bigger organization,knowing that the reach will be
there when it comes time todealing with lenders.
Maybe it's acquiring a new lender,such as Rocket Pro recently, or
having a great long -termrelationship with some of the
others.
Yeah, of course.
I'm excited about thispartnership.
I think we've struck a goodbalance between those two things.
We recognize that our agents andbrokers across the country are
(31:49):
doing this for their own purposes.
And at least in the eyes of the
guy, government, they're self-employed.
And sometimes in their own eyes,we see them a little bit more like
contract employees where we canhelp them save some money from a
taxation perspective and stillgive them, again, that same
corporate backbone andinfrastructure that some of the
larger companies would give them.
Right.
Yeah.
So you can't understand enough
that feeling of support.
It sounds like you guys make
(32:10):
people feel like they're part of ateam too, which I think is
underrated.
in our industry, by the way.
Everyone, they go out and they'relike, oh, I'm going to be a lone
wolf hustler out there findingmortgages.
And then they dropped thecorporate world behind.
And then they're not so far intoit before they start realizing
there are actually some benefitsto being a part of something
bigger than yourself and feelinglike you're building something and
(32:31):
having that network to fall backon and work together with.
That is amazing.
So to wrap things up, as you think
about your career and your life sofar, what do you envision for the
rest of your life?career and what do you want your
lasting impact to be?You know, that's a pretty big
question.
So I don't know that I've got that
lasting impact element, but I cantell you that I love this
(32:52):
industry.
I love what we represent to the
marketplace.
I love what we often represent to
each other as well in thecamaraderie and the support.
and the way that we enable themarket and our clients' dreams.
So my goal is to continue to be inthis business, to continue to grow
our reach.
I look forward to the remainder of
(33:13):
2025, where we're going to expandthe company into a couple of new
regions as well.
So I look forward to some news on
that.
Continuing to establish great
partnerships with our lenders isabsolutely critical to our long
-term success.
So continuing to engage with them
is a big part of my plan.
And I'm not going anywhere.
I love this business.
I think we've got a long runway.
(33:34):
Currently, I think there's 29 ,000mortgage brokers licensed across
Canada.
As I said earlier, there's 370
there with Indy.
So using the rule of 10%, we still
got a little bit of headroom forus.
And we're looking forward toconnecting with the next great
agents out there that are lookingfor a taste of independence.
I love that.
love that.
That's really well said.
(33:55):
And it's such an awesome... honest
mission.
It sounds like you really enjoy
it.
So Gord and to the other Gord and
the wives and everybody whocouldn't be here on this call with
us today and you're representingIndy, just thank you guys for what
you guys are doing.
Thank you for the partnership and
continue building because we arevery excited about what you guys
are doing.
We think you're doing something
(34:15):
special.
So thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Lending Thoughts,
(00:02):
sponsored by Rocket Pro.
Today, I'm joined by Gord Apple.
Gord is one of the co -foundersand leaders of...
Indie Mortgage, which is a growingmortgage brokerage currently in
six provinces.
Gordon and I have an awesome
discussion.
Talks about how you could start
your mortgage business with $50 ata coffee shop, which I thought was
(00:23):
a phenomenal idea.
We talk a little bit about friends
and family and how they may not bethe best clients to go after when
you're first building yourmortgage business.
And we talk about being present asa leader.
So make sure to listen in.
It's a great conversation.
Gord, thanks for joining me today.
Happy to be here.
(00:45):
Absolutely.
So pleasure to have you on.
Our teams work together and workwell together.
So excited to have you talk to theaudience today.
And I always like to just start bygiving people some information
about you and taking it inwhatever direction you want to go.
So can you tell us your life storyin 60 seconds or less, please?
Well, I'm getting pretty old, so60 seconds is not a long time.
But I've been in the mortgagebusiness now 20 years, been in
(01:05):
sales my whole life, and I'velived across the country.
Like I said, I've been in themortgage business now for 20
years, running Indy Mortgage forthe last five and a half with my
business partner, Gord Ross, andour silent, not -so -silent
partner, Tanya Appel.
We've been humming along.
So that's maybe 60 seconds, notwhole life, but kind of gives you
a bit of a thing to talk about.
(01:26):
It's helpful.
helpful.
You said sales, always sales.
Was it always mortgage or was itother types of sales before
mortgage that sort of like led tomortgage?
And I'm curious how you... endedup in mortgage or as some people
say, like fell into mortgagebecause very few people choose it.
You know, sales has been a varietyof different things.
I've done it all from door to doorvacuum sales, believe it or not.
That's real sales.
It's hardcore.
It wasn't for me, but I did do itfor a little while.
(01:47):
And I have a lot of respect forthose that do it.
So it's, yeah, definitelysomething that helped with skills
development.
Retail sales was something
similar.
I worked at Future Shop for a
bunch of years and, you know, fellinto mortgages.
I didn't fall into it.
I feel like it was... coerced.
I had a good friend that was inthe business.
And we were talking about theindustry as a whole.
And it never really occurred to meto become a mortgage broker.
(02:09):
Every time I thought aboutentering the real estate business,
I thought about being a realtorand dragging people all over town
and showing them 50 stinky housesor whatever the case was really
didn't appeal to me.
But I was always drawn to the real
estate industry, whether that wasbecause of That personal
connection, having moved aroundquite a bit, housing always
mattered to me.
Or if it was because of the big
commissions and being in sales,that was always part of the
(02:31):
formula as well.
But I was very attracted to it.
So when I looked at the economicsof being a mortgage broker, when I
looked at the value that weprovide to the transaction by not
charging fees generally and thatsort of thing, it made a little
bit of sense for me to take adeeper look.
So got registered, took thecourse.
Very quickly fell in love with it.
It took me about 10 deals to close
(02:53):
the first one.
But after that, I was off to the
races.
So the underwriting didn't come
naturally.
No, no, it sure didn't.
I could make the phone ring, but Ididn't.
Yeah, you could sell it, but youcouldn't close it yet.
That took a little practice.
That's funny.
Definitely took some time.
And you were doing that as an
independent agent and sort of likegrowing your book of business,
(03:15):
having conversations.
Who were your first?
you know, mortgages coming from?Were they referrals, family,
friends?You know, know, I would have
thought family and friends weregoing to be my first source of
business, but it literally took mesix years to get a friend to use
me.
And I think it was a little bit
longer than that before a familymember did.
Right before getting into themortgage business, I worked in car
rental.
So people thought I was in car
(03:36):
rental.
For five years, they would call me
to get a deal on cars.
So they didn't think of me as a
mortgage broker.
And that was before the days.
And I know I'm sounding old when Isay stuff like that, but it was
before that is really pumping iton social media.
Unless you were always talking tothem, they didn't think about what
you were doing.
They thought about what you were
doing the last time.
So social media allows us to
really be a lot more present asmortgage brokers.
(03:57):
So that is certainly an advantagethat exists today.
My first deals came from knockingon doors.
I did this thing at Starbuckswhere I would leave $50 with the
barista and tell her I would payfor any of the drinks for anybody
coming in the store.
And I would just sit and work away
on a deal or on my next marketingidea or just do some shopping on
the internet and sit at theStarbucks and just work away on my
(04:19):
laptop.
pay for coffees.
And every now and then someonewould say thank you and I would
engage them in a conversation.
Very rarely did I start with a
mortgage conversation, but thatwould lead to something further
and eventually I would get a leadthat became a mortgage.
And the thing that it made merealize is that our client is
actually adult Canadians.
If you look at the statistics, 66
.5 % of Canadians are homeowners.
So that means they have had or do
(04:40):
have our product.
Nobody walks around, well, very
few people walk around with asuitcase full of money to go buy a
house.
So if you're talking to one of
those 66 .5 % of Canadians thatare already homeowners, they
understand and need or have hadour product.
The other 33 .5%, they want it.
They're the renters that want to
eventually have our product.
So if you're talking to an adult
(05:03):
Canadian, you're talking to aconsumer.
And I found if I could time itright.
The Starbucks between two andthree o 'clock was kind of the
sweet spot.
It was right before school pickup.
So the moms would come in, havetheir coffees, have a chat, and
then they'd take off and go do theschool pickup.
But they were slow enough thatthey could slow down and ask a few
(05:25):
questions.
So that was one of the things that
I did.
I've never heard of this strategy
before.
I did.
I've never heard of this strategybefore.
I thought I heard them all.
You're welcome.
I could spend the entire timetalking to you with just like very
specific details about thatstrategy in itself.
But that is very interesting.
I think it just goes to show
there's so many different ways todo this business.
There's so many different ways.
(05:47):
And to your point, everybody's a
potential client.
Avoid the ball pit at your local
kids' play place.
Other than that, you're probably
talking to potential clients.
And even if you're there, you can
probably talk to one of theparents who's watching their kids
in the ball pit.
And their parents probably own a
house or have aspirations ofsomeday owning a home.
One of my mentors, There's of mymentors, Brian Gentles, always
says, don't be a secret agent.
So, you know, if you could be at a
(06:10):
hockey game, you could be, as yousay, at the ball pit watching your
kids.
But, you know, most people will
ask you what you do.
Have a good answer for it.
I'm a mortgage broker is aterrible answer.
So have a good answer.
And if you have a good answer and
you're continuing a genuineconversation with someone, you'll
make a connection.
And when they need you, they'll
probably use you if you've done agood job in creating a genuine
(06:31):
connection.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
led me into what I was going toask you, which is that, like, how
would you approach thatconversation with all these folks?
You just said, like, actually, Ithink telling people, you know,
I'm a mortgage broker andexpecting them to know what that
means and then do something aboutthat information is actually a
terrible strategy.
And I agree.
So when people ask that question,what would you say?
And what have you saidhistorically?
Is there any one thing or is itchange?
(06:52):
It does change.
I think, you know, very rarely is
it the first question someone willask you.
It will be the first question ifthere is an awkward silence.
But when you first meet somebody,you have an opportunity to talk a
little bit and then.
From there, you're going to
include some of what your responseis when it comes around to the
what do you do or how do you makemoney kind of conversation.
(07:12):
And, you know, often you'll dropsome hints as to what you do.
Oh, the marketplace, this or that.
I remember when the marketplace
was tanking in Alberta, and it'sdone it a few times, but, you
know, we would go out in 2008.
And, you know, obviously there was
a lot of pain in the marketplaceat that time.
And I would go to meet people andthey would...
Look at you with pity.
(07:33):
You're in the mortgage business or
you're in real estate.
Oh, it must be tough.
How are you making ends meet?And that would be a different kind
of opportunity.
So I would say things like, we
actually are in the business ofhelping people like you.
So yeah, it sounds right now youlisten to the radio and nobody's
buying houses, but you're notbuying a house either.
(07:53):
And you probably still want tosave money on the house that you
have.
So that's really where we focus.
We tend to deal with more clientsthat just want to keep the house
they have and save some money onit.
Look at their options.
Maybe they want to consolidate
some debts.
Maybe they want to reduce the
payment that they have, or maybethey want to pay it off even
faster.
So we really focus on people like
you.
So I would pull them into that
(08:14):
conversation that they were askingme about the marketplace.
So it really just sort of dependson what you're doing and where
you're at.
And again, it comes down to
authenticity.
You're a mortgage broker.
You do it for a reason and youunderstand.
what it means to do it, includingthat statement of, I'm a mortgage
broker, is hoping that theconsumer understands what that
means.
They might think a mortgage broker
is a guy wearing a leather jacketthat's going to give you cash
against your house.
(08:35):
They might think that we are the
place that you go when you've gotbad credit.
They might think that if you getdeclined at a bank, that's where
you go.
All these different things, and
all of them are true, but they'regoing to pigeonhole you into some
of... what that is.
And maybe not all are true because
I don't think too many of us arewearing leather jackets standing
around the corner handing outcash.
Not anymore.
But you get the meaning, right?
(08:57):
Yeah.
So I think, you know, having the
answer is really around who'sasking the question.
And being plugged into theconversation you're having.
I mean, it's so true.
If you've spent any time at a
barbecue with friends and familyand tried to just explain to
people that you're a mortgagebroker and ask for the reaction
and ask where they get their lastmortgage from, you'll just get
that information from people allthe time.
(09:18):
And you've probably heard it amillion times.
And you've been doing this longerthan I have.
But like, oh, no, I'm good.
I already, you know, I already
deal with such and such.
And you're like, oh, no, no, no.
So do I. Right?That's right.
Here's the great news.
Yeah, I actually work with them
too.
The difference with me is that,
you know, they're going to giveyou one option.
(09:39):
I have the ability to give youtheir option plus a whole other
suite of options that may actuallybe better than the option that
they've provided to you becauseit's all they have to offer.
And it creates a wholeconversation.
But if you don't start thatconversation the right way, and
especially if you sold vacuumsdoor to door, you know, the first
thing people do is they... puttheir hands up and they say, I'm
not interested.
Or it sounds like you might be
trying to sell me something basedon that leather jacket.
(09:59):
It sort of like leads me into whatI wanted to talk to you about on
the next front, which is that likeyou existed in this industry at a
time where you were your ownmarketer.
as well.
And not only were you marketing
your service, but you were alsomarketing for mortgage brokers.
Now you're running a brokerage inIndy in that you're teaching and
training other folks how to buildtheir business, how to market
themselves and things like that.
But going back to the early days,
(10:20):
like how did you even market toclients what a mortgage brokerage
was?I do think, and you could see
based on the trend, people areusing mortgage brokers more and
more and more.
That is something that we are
deeply passionate about assistingin this industry.
We think that mortgage brokers arethe best for consumers.
We believe that in our hearts.
And what were some of the things
that you were doing early on tojust let people know what would
mortgage brokers do?How did you market that?
(10:41):
So to me, jacket.
to me, it's always been this
constant effort.
All of us need to be doing it.
Promoting the value of workingwith a mortgage broker is not
something that you get to buy abillboard and just everybody reads
and then you're done.
Everybody's educated.
Partly because the landscape isshifting underneath us at all
times.
We're constantly getting new
rules.
We had new rules in the last few
weeks.
(11:01):
So we're going to continue to see
that.
So I think it's really about
communicating with your sphere ofinfluence.
So what I would do is tellstories.
And I would tell stories to thepeople that were in my circles.
And we can do that on social medianow and tell stories about the
people we've helped, the types ofconsumers that we've helped.
Instead of saying, you should workwith me, you can say, somebody
that's like you worked with me.
I just completed a mortgage for
(11:21):
some people that are in the samesituation as you and I got them a
great deal.
They worked with their bank, but
we actually moved them to adifferent bank.
You know, they started withtheirs.
We moved them to a different oneand we got them a better rate or
we got them a better solution orwe got them whatever that
situation was.
But if you tell a story about
something that you've done and youtell a variety of different
(11:44):
stories, eventually your networkwill understand what you do and
will see themselves in yourbusiness.
It could be a referral source.
It could be somebody that you've
met at D &I at a networking group,a realtor, or it could just be
somebody in your family or socialnetwork.
But they need to understand wherethey fit.
And I think storytelling is agreat way to get there.
I love that reframe to tell it inthe form of a story and relate it
(12:08):
to other human beings who are likeme, right?
Because we do that as humans.
We identify ourselves with certain
characteristics.
bucket that into specific groups
and think about our own identity,whether or not we're consciously
thinking about it orsubconsciously identifying as, as
somebody who, right.
So thinking about, you know, being
at that family barbecue and yougot your aunt there with you and
you say that, you know, you domortgages and she says, no, I'm
good.
You know, I get all my.
(12:28):
products from national.
I'm a high net worth client there,
right?They may not outwardly say that,
but they're thinking to themselveslike, I've got a couple hundred
thousand dollars or I've got amillion dollars in assets with X
bank, for example.
And to be able to come back and
say, oh, that's awesome.
Yeah, you probably get really well
taken care of there.
In fact, I was just helping this
(12:50):
family and much the same are inreally good financial shoes.
They're used to getting a prettydecent rate, but just on their
most recent renewal, for whateverreason, the bank just didn't give
them a great renewal offer.
on their mortgage.
So what I actually did, I actuallyshowed them the network program
with such and such, didn't evenhave to get all the usual income
documents, which are often painfulfor folks like you.
(13:12):
I just did a net worth program andmoved them over here and saved a
max amount of money and did thisand did that.
And now they're, they're superhappy and they go home, worth go
home, you know, and aunt istalking to uncle and going, should
we check on that?Right.
Right.
And then just wait, you know?
Yes.
Yes, that waiting is the critical
element of it because you don'twant to try and move in at the
family barbecue.
You just plant the seeds.
(13:34):
She's going to stay your aunttomorrow, the next day, the day
after.
And that's the thing that I think
we often get confused about inthis business is that it is a very
long sales cycle.
And it's a sales cycle that we are
not in control of the timeline on.
So, you know, you could pick up a
client and they signed with theirbank yesterday.
They're going to use you for yournext mortgage.
(13:55):
But they're in for five years.
Does that mean they're not a
client?Does that mean you didn't do a
good job acquiring a client andbuilding your business?
No, it doesn't mean that.
It just means you're not going to
get paid for a while.
So you have to have patience.
And it's the same thing in thescenario you're talking about.
You plant those seeds and thenwait for your aunt to come back to
you.
Or the next conversation, maybe it
(14:15):
goes a little farther.
And maybe you never do business
with your aunt.
Family members are difficult.
Friends are the same.
They don't necessarily want you to
see their credit, their assets.
Most people would like to be
further along in their financialjourney than they are currently.
There's a little bit ofembarrassment associated with it.
Often we get caught up in what wewant out of the situation.
We forget to look at the wholepicture.
(14:35):
And that client will work with uswhen they're ready to.
We just have to... put ourselvesin the right position.
And maybe it's not them, in theright position.
And maybe it's not them, but maybeit's the referral that they give
you.
I think you said it took six years
before friends and family startedworking with you to do their
mortgages.
Was that the reason?
Because I think that for newagents especially, that is one of
(14:57):
the early realizations.
They think they just changed their
Facebook profile and Instagram orwhatever to mortgage broker.
They put out two posts to say,hey, by the way, I do mortgages
now and no one calls them.
And then...
They'll be at their next familyfriend event or something like
that.
And they'll hear in passing
someone that they know and careabout and that loves and cares
about them.
So, yeah, I actually just did my
(15:17):
mortgage with, you know, such andsuch.
And you're going, what?How could you?
could you?You know, right?
Like, you know, we're in the samefriend group chat and we talk
every day and you just got yourmortgage.
Is that a trust thing?Is it fear?
Because I've seen that before,too.
Yeah, I think there's a couple ofdifferent things that it could be.
Certainly, trust can enter intoit, although I think it's less
(15:39):
likely to be trust than it is anelement of embarrassment or a
sense of privacy.
A lot of us were taught we don't
talk about money with our family.
We don't talk about money with our
friends.
And this is effectively like, I'm
going to need to see your paystub.
I'm going to need to see.
you know, some of your asset
statements and I'm going to lookat your credit and I'm going to
see that you missed that paymentor whatever the case is.
And I think that there's anelement of concern there that
(16:02):
people have that embarrassment.
But I think most of that is
overcome with good communication,like most things, right?
And so talking to somebody thatyou're close with, there's a few
different ways that you canapproach that.
If you're new to the industry, newto the business, you might want to
talk to the people that you'reclose with and to say, look, I
need some practice.
Would you mind sending me your
mortgage statement just so that Ican look at it and start to get
(16:26):
some of this knowledge that comesoff of looking at... all of the
different brands statements.
And maybe when I go through that,
I'll see something and I'll letyou know about it.
But really, I'm just looking forsome practice.
So it gives you an opportunity tokind of open the door a little
bit.
And I think, you know, if you
frame it the right way, yourfriends and family will support
you.
What I was doing wrong, the reason
(16:46):
I think it took me a long time toget that is I wasn't framing it in
the right way.
I would ask my brother or my
parents for business, but I reallydidn't go much beyond that.
And they used me when theirs cameup for renewal.
So probably was around five years,whatever the case was.
But, you know, getting furtherinto the friendship circle and
into the family circle took theestablishment of that expertise.
So being positioned as an expertisn't the same as just being
(17:07):
positioned as a practitioner.
And in order to get my family on
side, they needed to see me as anexpert because they had seen me my
whole life or a good chunk of it.
They saw me when I was.
you know, long hair skateboardingand believed I could be in a band
for a career.
And they saw me sort of bounce
around and sell vacuums for a bitand do these other things.
And so they, you know, probablyweren't feeling that level of
comfort that I was going to be theguy to trust their most important
(17:32):
debt to and this most importantthing that they have.
So we have to remember also thateven though we want it, it's not
necessarily what we want.
In fact, it's got very little to
do with what we want as to whetheror not.
we get that transaction.
It is all about the consumer and
making sure that they feel that weare going to be the best source
for them to accomplish theirgoals.
this I mean, you just had methinking, it's so funny because
everyone always wants to startthere with friends and family, but
(17:55):
as somebody who's on the path toexpert, I mean, if you've closed
zero to 10 mortgages, you probablyactually don't want to start with
friends and family, truthfully.
You probably want to get your
practice on a stranger who youdon't have to see at the next
barbecue.
And who probably feels better
giving you direct feedback.
Like they don't want to hurt your
(18:16):
feelings if they're your family.
If they're not, they're going to
tell you, hey, man, you droppedthe ball or I expected better from
you.
if Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
So as you think about peoplebuilding their mortgage businesses
today, we obviously live in a verydifferent world.
Not saying that the Starbucks ideais a bad one for the record.
I might actually start training onthat.
But as you think about the newmortgage agents, I mean, Indy, you
(18:36):
guys have how many mortgage agentstoday, roughly?
We're about 370 today.
370 mortgage agents and new folks
come into the fold.
How do you give them advice when
they ask, where do I go to startbuilding my business?
Because the same way, they mightcome in with the long hair played
in a band and now they learned alittle bit of sales somewhere
else.
And now they're like, hey,
mortgages are my new product andI'm going to make a living here.
(18:59):
And they go to you or some otherfolks on the team and they go,
what should I do to find clients?What do you tell them?
Well, so a couple of things.
First is we are not really a
training shop.
So if you're joining India as a
new broker, you're joining with amentor.
We don't have corporate training.
Training or mentorship are
critical to success, especially atthe beginning of a new career.
(19:19):
Somebody coming out of a bank as abank mortgage specialist and going
into mortgage brokering couldprobably find most of the way
there on their own.
They would still need to have a
good support group around them.
understand the nuance of the
product, the compliance elements,that sort of thing.
But new to industry, we don't hireunless you have a mentor.
And a mentor, it's a two -waystreet.
You both have to want each other.
The mentor has to be willing to
(19:40):
give you their time, their trueexpertise, and you have to be
willing to put the time in to getit.
And that means being on theirschedule, not on your own.
If you have a mentor, somebodywho's worthy of being a mentor is
usually a top producer andsomebody who is going to be busy.
And taking their time when they'rewilling to give it to you is when
you should take it.
(20:01):
So I would say that that is number
one.
What I tell people that are new to
the industry, and I still do talkto a number of new to industry
through my association work or atIndy if they come to us directly.
And I tell them, you know, it'sreally making sure that you know
where your business is going tocome from.
So it might be realtors.
It might be financial planners.
It might be networking groups.
It might be your community
(20:21):
association, wherever it is thatyou're going to get your business
from.
You have to start with knowing
where you're going to get it andthen how you're going to get it.
And the difference between abusiness plan that works and one
that doesn't is an action stepthat goes along with it.
So you can make your businessplan.
I'm going to get my business fromrealtors and I'm going to get it
(20:45):
in this way.
But if you don't transpose that
into your calendar, into specificaction items, protected time to
take that action, your businessplan won't work.
So again, adult Canadians, 66 .5 %of Canadians are homeowners.
If you're talking to adultCanadians or people that work with
adult Canadians, you're talking topotential clients or potential
referral sources.
Be conscious about how you
approach those marketplaces.
If you do that, you'll find some
(21:07):
success.
So you're thinking about actions.
And I like that because one thingI learned, and I'm not sure
exactly where I learned it, soforgive me for not giving the
proper credit, but it's action-based goals instead of outcome
-based goals.
Oftentimes, especially now we're
talking here in January, it's thattime of year, right?
It's that time of year wheneveryone's coming in, they're
going to lose 30 pounds.
But very rarely do people actually
(21:28):
walk that all the way back to talkabout what that looks like in a
single day or a single morning ora single meal or whatever that is.
For me right now, I'll just speakfor myself here.
I'm trying to get healthier.
Health is one of my goals.
And I'm primarily healthy, but Iknow that there's some more steps
that I could take to get myself towhere I want to go.
And what I find is that...
(21:49):
When I focus on the year, I will
often fail.
When I focus on the day, I will
often win at the thing that I amtrying to win at in the day.
It's like, I can't necessarilycontrol the end state.
What I can do is I can scheduleone great day.
And if I have one great day today,followed by one great day
tomorrow, and I have...
250 great days in a 365 -day
calendar year, it's probably goingto get me to where I'm trying to
(22:11):
go for the year.
And if I do that on the most
important things, you said realestate agents, you know, if you're
going to build your businessaround realtors, so what do you
need to be doing?You probably need to be talking to
realtors.
How do you talk to realtors?
You pick up the phone or you getin the car and you start visiting
(22:35):
some offices, go to theconferences or go to whatever and
just go do that.
Like map that out.
What does that look like?Not what's the end state, but like
what things will you need to do?Forget about the achievement.
You might suck for like a reallylong time.
But if you just go do that forlong enough, just like knocking on
doors for vacuums.
I can't imagine many people were
successful immediately out of thegate.
(22:56):
It's like a major shock to thesystem.
The first time you try to sellsomething door to door, I've done
it.
It changes your whole view on
society.
Like you go around to all your
public place and everyone's likesmiling and like waving and
everyone's like super kind, but goknock on someone's door.
They haven't even heard what youhave to sell yet.
And they're treating you terribly.
And you're like, I didn't know
(23:17):
human beings could talk to otherhuman beings.
It is eye -opening.
that first time is eye -opening.
And I actually know an agent thatwent door -to -door selling
mortgages.
That's maybe even more difficult
because it's not tangible, right?And he went and did it for quite a
long time.
In the end, it was a 3 % success
ratio.
He'd knock on 100 doors and he'd
get about three mortgages out ofit.
(23:37):
It's a long effort.
But again, there is no
substitution in this business orin any business for doing the
work.
You can choose that work.
You can choose other work.
But if you don't do any work,
you're not going to get anyresults.
So that's why I say be consciousabout it.
Like take a look at I'm going toget this marketplace.
Great.
Now let's build a strategy.
(23:58):
Great.
Now we got a strategy.
How are we going to implement thatstrategy?
What are we going to do day today, week to week?
to check in that we've actuallyimplemented the right strategy.
And then once we get to certaincheckpoints, let's make sure we're
accomplishing some goals.
To your point, it is absolutely
critical to focus on the stepsonce you've created that plan.
Continuing to go back to the planis where most people fail.
It's not time to plan every day.
You plan once and then you
(24:18):
execute.
And then you check in on your
plan.
is eye then you check in on your
plan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because you could give someoneelse the advice.
Typically, you know the answer.
The answer is do the thing.
So they come in, they've got amentor, new agent, let's say, and
they're building their businessand you've helped people help
people.
And now with you and your
partners, you're spending a lot oftime running the indie business.
(24:40):
What has that transition been likefrom just being a mortgage agent
to the different world in whichyou're in now, which is running a
mortgage brokerage?in the day to day?
And what does that look like foryou?
Yeah, it's actually been a lot offun.
You know, the way we approach itfrom a head office perspective is
very much the way a broker or Iapproached my mortgage business.
And that is that the broker is ourclient.
(25:00):
So we don't transact at the headoffice level.
We don't let anybody do dealsbecause our...
Broker is our client.
We spend a lot of time focusing on
what does the broker need,listening to them and asking them
what do they need because notevery broker is the same.
It's a self -employed environment.
We've got 370 agents.
We've got 370 ways that businessis being done today and being
attracted and being retained.
(25:20):
And that's great.
This is a very personal businessand we attract the type of people
that we want to do business with.
Often, not every single time is it
a person that we've attracted thatwe want to do business with.
But generally, that's the case,right?
So we, as a business... havetreated it that way.
And it's been really awesome tomove into that part of this career
for me personally.
I've enjoyed the way that this
(25:41):
company has grown in the last fiveyears.
We were 94 agents five years agoand 370 today.
And we operate in six provinces.
And, you know, Gord Ross is
definitely the driving forcebehind all of that growth.
And he's stretched.
our skills, my skills, and what I
thought was possible just byvirtue of him saying it is
possible.
So that has been just a really
great dynamic for me as well andhas that personal growth.
(26:03):
Also to see my wife in her bestskills in the marketing
department.
She was a broker for 10 years.
So she got to really know what wedo.
But she's a marketer at heart.
It's what she went to school for.
She's like hardcore when it comesto branding and marketing and
everything else.
So to have her be in that great
skill of hers and watch herflourish to the benefit of our
(26:24):
clients and of our company istremendous.
So it's been a really greatjourney.
Like I said, I love this industryand I love what it's afforded me
personally and allowed me todevelop the skills environment as
well as the financial environment.
So yeah, all good.
Yeah, it's very cool.
Becoming a family business as well
and growing something bigger thanyourself.
Do you think you could have donethat had you not been a mortgage
agent previously?Because I mean, you guys have
(26:46):
built a very agent centric.
brokerage.
Is that because you've done ityourself?
You know, it's hard to say whatyou might have been like had you
not done something.
I did it for about 10 years as an
agent and then moved into someleadership roles after that.
But I think it really is where agood chunk of it comes from.
But, you know, in all of my salesenvironments, everything that I've
(27:10):
done has really been aboutlistening.
So I think that good sales isabout connecting the right things
together.
And the only way you can figure
out what the right things are isif you stop for a minute and
listen.
So really it comes from there and
our willingness and our beliefthat we can always be better.
I love that on listening.
I heard someone say not too long
(27:30):
ago that they did a talk on stageabout tips for becoming like a
better speaker and it went superviral.
And they shortly after followed itup with tips for being a great
listener and like no one watchedit.
Shocking, right?We all want the hack, right?
Just tell me what I need to saywhen the actual hard part is
(27:52):
listening.
And that is actually the more
important skill to being a greatcommunicator and going out and
delivering and selling a productto anybody.
So, I mean, it's what made me wantto start having these sorts of
conversations, oftentimes in theday -to -day leading a mortgage
business.
People look at me and they're
like, okay, now talk.
Yeah, right.
Sometimes I actually would preferto listen.
Sometimes that's why I like tohave these conversations and call
(28:14):
this.
podcast lending thoughts is other
people are letting their thoughtsand hoping that we can share that
with the community.
But I do wonder now, you know,
having gone that route foryourself from agent to broker,
broker owner, and where you liketo spend your time, because you've
gone back to that sales aspectmany, many times.
Like you sound like a truesalesperson at heart and believe
(28:34):
that that is the core of mortgagebrokering is great
salespersonship.
And I often say that sales is
synonymous with communication.
So you're really figuring out how
to like communicate, how to serve,how to advise.
Like that's all a part of it.
And then being able to communicate
that back such that people willwork with you instead of getting
it.
you know, a mortgage, any of the
other thousand places they can goget it.
(28:55):
So like, where do you like tospend your time now?
Like, what do you like doing?You know, I like problem solving
and I like time with our team.
So there's a couple of different
places that I'm really spending alot of my energy right now.
My best contribution to thecompany is in making the company
better.
So what I try to do is solve the
problems, but I only know aboutthe problems when I'm listening.
(29:18):
So I try and get present with theteam.
We have five different groups thatwe've created provincially and
then one national group that isour top brokers from each
province.
And then, of course, they go up to
the national level.
We consult with them twice a year.
I look forward to those times.
I run those meetings.
pull in.
So there's really three purposes
(29:39):
for those meetings.
One is to hear from them, hear
from the street, so to speak,what's going on, what they need,
where their pain points are, wheretheir wins and successes are,
those types of things.
The second is to share with them
what we've been working on from ahead office perspective or things
that we're hearing from otherregions.
(29:59):
And the third is to create acollaborative opportunity for them
to improve their businesses.
And so we do that twice a year in
all the regions and we do thenational one as well.
I spend time with all thedepartment heads making.
sure that when we deliver, we aredelivering on our promises.
So that means that making sure ourpromises are aligned with our
actions, but also that our actionsare aligned with our promises.
(30:23):
So talking to the sales team isdifferent from talking to the
administration team, the inverseof the same conversation.
But that's really where I spend myenergy is in making sure that we
are the best that we can be, thatwe're looking for opportunities
for constant improvement, and thatwe are delivering on the promises
that we've made to the people thathave been onboarded to this
(30:45):
company.
So why do mortgage agents come to
Indie Mortgage and why do theystay then?
I think the biggest thing about itis that we're good.
And by good, I mean, we treatpeople well, we are transparent,
we're honest, we're hardworking,we do what we say we're going to
do.
We're transparent about it.
So if there's something going on,you'll know about it.
If there's compensation beingreceived, you'll know about it.
(31:06):
We pay twice a week because Wewant to make sure that agents get
what they're doing this for, whichis to provide for their families
and for their goals.
You know, we go out of our way to
be that way.
And I think that's the reason
brokers stay.
And I think the reason brokers
join us in the first place isbecause they're looking for
something that is the rightbalance between being self
(31:26):
-employed and being employed.
Looking for the stability and
comfort of a bigger organization,knowing that the reach will be
there when it comes time todealing with lenders.
Maybe it's acquiring a new lender,such as Rocket Pro recently, or
having a great long -termrelationship with some of the
others.
Yeah, of course.
I'm excited about thispartnership.
I think we've struck a goodbalance between those two things.
We recognize that our agents andbrokers across the country are
(31:49):
doing this for their own purposes.
And at least in the eyes of the
guy, government, they're self-employed.
And sometimes in their own eyes,we see them a little bit more like
contract employees where we canhelp them save some money from a
taxation perspective and stillgive them, again, that same
corporate backbone andinfrastructure that some of the
larger companies would give them.
Right.
Yeah.
So you can't understand enough
that feeling of support.
It sounds like you guys make
(32:10):
people feel like they're part of ateam too, which I think is
underrated.
in our industry, by the way.
Everyone, they go out and they'relike, oh, I'm going to be a lone
wolf hustler out there findingmortgages.
And then they dropped thecorporate world behind.
And then they're not so far intoit before they start realizing
there are actually some benefitsto being a part of something
bigger than yourself and feelinglike you're building something and
(32:31):
having that network to fall backon and work together with.
That is amazing.
So to wrap things up, as you think
about your career and your life sofar, what do you envision for the
rest of your life?career and what do you want your
lasting impact to be?You know, that's a pretty big
question.
So I don't know that I've got that
lasting impact element, but I cantell you that I love this
(32:52):
industry.
I love what we represent to the
marketplace.
I love what we often represent to
each other as well in thecamaraderie and the support.
and the way that we enable themarket and our clients' dreams.
So my goal is to continue to be inthis business, to continue to grow
our reach.
I look forward to the remainder of
(33:13):
2025, where we're going to expandthe company into a couple of new
regions as well.
So I look forward to some news on
that.
Continuing to establish great
partnerships with our lenders isabsolutely critical to our long
-term success.
So continuing to engage with them
is a big part of my plan.
And I'm not going anywhere.
I love this business.
I think we've got a long runway.
(33:34):
Currently, I think there's 29 ,000mortgage brokers licensed across
Canada.
As I said earlier, there's 370
there with Indy.
So using the rule of 10%, we still
got a little bit of headroom forus.
And we're looking forward toconnecting with the next great
agents out there that are lookingfor a taste of independence.
I love that.
love that.
That's really well said.
(33:55):
And it's such an awesome... honest
mission.
It sounds like you really enjoy
it.
So Gord and to the other Gord and
the wives and everybody whocouldn't be here on this call with
us today and you're representingIndy, just thank you guys for what
you guys are doing.
Thank you for the partnership and
continue building because we arevery excited about what you guys
are doing.
We think you're doing something
(34:15):
special.
So thank you.
Thank you very much.
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