February 5, 2025 • 31 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Bekim is joined by Dean Larson. Dean is the President & CEO at Tango Financial, a progressive, technology focused, coast-to-coast mortgage brokerage group. In addition, Dean is also in the private mortgage space as a Founder and Director of Northern Alliance Trust, a residential mortgage income fund, and Shelter Lending, an alternative mortgage lender. With over 25 years of experience in the finance and technology sectors, Dean has a proven track record of leading innovative teams and implementing strategic initiatives that enhance corporate culture and drive growth. Dean's vision emphasizes transparency, accessibility, and agent-centricity, ensuring Tango is strategically positioned and with the infrastructure in place to foster growth for mortgage brokers.
Dean is here to discuss: → How he got into brokering and the journey to becoming the CEO of Tango, how he stays motivated today, and the importance of kindness. → The massive competitive advantage you have when you don't screw people over, how to be a great partner and build strong partnerships, and how to foster a positive company culture. → How Tango keeps growing amid a shrinking industry, how Tango infrastructure keeps things simple for agents, and the benefits agents have when they're a part of a large brokerage.
Tango Financial Website: www.tangofinancial.ca
Tango Financial LinkedIn: @TangoFinancial
Tango Financial Instagram: @tango.financial
Shelter Lending Website: www.shelterlending.ca
Shelter Lending LinkedIn: @ShelterLending
Northern Alliance Trust Website: www.natrust.ca
Dean Larson's LinkedIn: @DeanLarson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, and thank you for listeningto this episode of the Lending
(00:02):
Thoughts podcast, sponsored byRocket Pro.
Today, I'm joined by Dean Larson,who's the president and CEO of
Tangle Financial.
We have a great conversation
ranging from how to be a greatpartner.
why you should be a part of alarge growing brokerage, and how
being a nice guy and not screwingpeople over can be a massive
(00:23):
competitive advantage in businessand in life.
Take a listen in today.
Thank you.
Dean, thank you for joining metoday.
Well, thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
So I always like to start out bygetting to know people a little
bit more.
So can you tell the audience your
(00:43):
life story in 60 seconds or less,please?
Sure, I'll give that a shot.
I was born in Calgary, didn't live
there very long, and moved to FortMcMurray for a few years.
As a small child, my dad was inconstruction, was building houses
in the 70s in Fort McMurray,Alberta during the oil boom.
So we moved around a little bitand then landed in Edmonton.
And I lived in Edmonton, Albertafor about 30 years.
As an adult, I started a fewentrepreneurial businesses.
(01:06):
They were a little bit focused onthe computer and tech space and
ended up becoming network designand technical IT support.
I fixed printers and computers,and I started designing networks
and doing IT support and sales.
Around that time, I got married
fairly young.
I've got three adult children and
five grandchildren.
I was recruited to a large IT
(01:26):
reseller in Edmonton, and I wasfortunate to get to be involved in
putting together some large.
Technology contracts with
government and universities andschool districts and health
regions.
And it was a good time.
Always wanted to move to BC.
So in 2006, my family and I moved
to Kelowna.
I loved Kelowna, but the reason
everybody doesn't live in Kelownais only because there are limited
(01:47):
career options unless you makeyour own.
And I started figuring out what Iwas going to do to be able to stay
in Kelowna forever and ended upgetting a mortgage broker license.
And that worked out.
That's the short version.
The chapter from there to herewould be harder to do in 60
seconds.
Well, there's a lot we could dive
into there, so maybe I'll try tojump in just a little bit.
First of all, on the hockey side,are you a Flames fan then, or are
(02:10):
you an Oilers fan, given that youlived in both Calgary and
Edmonton?Well, I'm definitely an Oilers
fan.
I chose to leave Calgary when I
was about a year old, so yeah.
Okay, so there was no roots that
your dad had stuck.
They're like, hey, no, we're
Flames to the death here.
Yeah, no, no. Boilers to the death
for sure.
Okay.
So you guys are on a better runright now.
Better to be an Oilers fan in thecommon times.
So there's been some ups anddowns, been some ups and downs,
(02:32):
but yeah, currently it's prettygood.
For sure.
For sure.
All right.
I appreciate that.
And then, you know, you said like,Hey, like I'm in BC now.
I got to figure something out.
Chose mortgage brokering, but I
want to understand more like.
Why?
Was it like a friend who was doingit?
Did you see a commercial?Because it's not a very natural,
you know, Google around a littlebit and then say like, all right,
mortgage brokering sounds like thething.
How did you fall into mortgage?As many say they do.
It was a friend, a friend, afriend that also had somewhat
(02:56):
recently discovered the mortgagebroker world who was from an
engineering background.
And I remember we were friends
from Edmonton and he moved toCalifornia doing energy sales with
a company from Edmonton.
And I distinctly remember this
funny conversation we had.
We were on Huntington.
Beach or Laguna Beach orsomething.
And we were talking.
He's like, yeah, my brother just
left his physiotherapy business.
He wants to be a mortgage broker
now.
And we both were like, what's a
mortgage broker?Like, is he crazy?
(03:18):
And we talk about this quite a bitnow because our.
careers have both progressed sincethen in that space.
But that was maybe a year beforewe both ended up getting a
mortgage broker.
So he worked for a large private
lender in Alberta and ended upbecoming an owner of it.
And when I was trying to figureout what to do in Kelowna, he
said, well, why don't you get amortgage broker license?
Maybe we'll work together someday,but why not just get that as a
(03:39):
backup plan?I still had another job at the
time.
And yeah, so it started out as a
fallback plan in case I lost myjob.
I didn't lose my job, but I endedup making the switch once I got
into it.
I'm a numbers guy.
I've always been a bit of a mathnerd combined with having some
sales background and peopleskills.
It was actually a pretty naturalfit for me.
Interesting.
So you actually mentioned the
background in sales and whatnot,but you said you also kind of came
up through technology.
(04:00):
Those things don't usually
intersect.
too well.
There's like the business people,often salespeople in our industry,
and then there's technologistssomewhere in our industry.
And you came up throughtechnology, evolved into sales.
How did you find a way to do both?And do you still find yourself in
the seat of doing both today?Like, do you identify as a
salesperson or as a technologist?I don't bring up the tech stuff as
much anymore.
(04:20):
You know, when I was in the tech
space, I was recruited to.
A few different companies
eventually after doing a bunch ofstuff on my own and without trying
to sound arrogant about it.
I mean, being able to design a
network and at the same time beingable to talk about it and sell it
and, you know, be a sales guy wasnot a combination of skills that
everybody had.
You had your techie nerds that,
you know, you didn't want to putin front of people.
(04:43):
And then you had your sales guysthat barely understood how
anything worked.
That was a benefit to me that I
was actually able to do both ofthose things.
And then, honestly, when I startedmortgage brokering, it ended up
being a help to having someknowledge of that space because,
you know, in 2007, technology wasdefinitely not that big of a part
of the mortgage space.
And I was living in a province in
a city where I didn't knowanybody.
So it wasn't, you know, the sameway that a lot of people would do
(05:06):
it, where they just go to alltheir friends and everything and
community.
So I ended up, you know, was kind
of an early adopter of Twitter anda lot of social media things.
I was an early adopter of GoogleAdWords and online advertising.
And most of my business was built,at least in the first couple of
years, using technology and a lotof online marketing and things
like that.
So it did give me some advantages
when I first got going.
I was able to do things that not
(05:26):
everybody was doing yet.
That's really interesting.
And when you think about thetrajectory from there, I mean, how
does one go from being early days,individual mortgage agent to now
becoming the... president of alarge, I mean, really a financial
group in Tango like you are today.
Like what was that journey that
led you to what you're doing rightnow?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a good luck and
fortune.
It's funny always when you think
about the journey that leads youto where you are, it definitely
(05:48):
was never a plan.
Like I started doing some
brokering.
A friend of mine said, well, hey,
we'd really like you to come workfor us for our private lender.
Let's have you do, you know,business development and stuff for
us in Western Canada.
I'm like, look, I'm already making
decent money as a mortgage broker.
I don't.
really know how to make that workif I'm working for you guys.
And then we said, well, let'sstart a mortgage brokerage then
(06:10):
and you can keep doing yourbrokering while also doing
business development for us.
So that was the first step.
We did that for a few years.
There was never supposed to be a
brokerage where we were recruitingpeople.
But as I met people, got to knowpeople, you know, we kept having
people saying, I want to come workwith you and I want to come work
with you.
And, you know, I remember one day
I'm like, we have like 10 people.
And then I remember we have 20
(06:31):
people.
I'm like, OK, now we've got a
brokerage.
I shifted the focus to the
brokerage and away from even thebusiness development I was doing
on the private lending side,pulled the brokerage away from
that lender and just focused onbuilding the brokerage and still
managing my book because, youknow, that's how you pay the bills
until.
The brokerage gets large enough.
We had a very quick rise in thegrowth, especially for an interior
based brokerage.
You know, all of a sudden we got
40, 50, 60 people and we were oneof the bigger brokerages in B
(06:51):
C., certainly the biggest based inthe interior.
And then my partner, JasonHanaberry, came up with this idea
to form a company called TangoFinancial.
To be somewhat of a tech forwardand at least innovative thinking
brokerage, but to bring somebrokerages together, amalgamate
them, take the revenues combinedand be able to spend it on
actually innovating the brokerageand the integration with
technology and the brokerage.
So Tango was formed and Tango
actually bought my brokerage fromme at that point and a couple
(07:14):
other brokerages.
And then we had a whole bunch of
like broker owners.
Took us a few years actually to.
to put everybody in the rightspots and figure out who's staying
and who's retiring and whateverybody's going to do.
And there was a lot of bumps inthat.
You can definitely end up with toomany cooks when you try to bring a
bunch of companies together.
And somewhere through that
(07:34):
process, I ended up as the CEO ofthe company.
Jason is my COO.
I mean, we were both in and out
even at different times.
Not sure if we were even going to
be part of Tango, but we've got astreamlined operation now.
Him and I are working really welltogether and we've been growing
by, you know, 100 people a yearfor the last four or five years.
So including last year, we stilladded 100 people.
(07:55):
We've got momentum and we're justgoing with it.
But, you know, it was never theplan that anybody, you know,
thinks they're going to go withwhen they first start.
Yeah, very interesting because Ihave been watching you guys just
grow like that.
Know Jason a bit, a previous
company that he had in LenderSpotlight was actually acquired by
Lendask, which is a sister companyof ours.
So there's just, you know, there'ssome connections there and you
guys just seem to be, you know,applying a similar idea, which is
(08:16):
mortgage brokering combined withsome level of technology and
digital know -how and growingthat.
But what is creating this at atime when...
Mortgage brokers are leaving theindustry.
Our industry is shrinking a bit interms of aggregate numbers because
transactions have shrunk.
Yet you guys are getting a
migration of agents.
What do you think that is?
Is it cultural?Is it a movement?
Is it platform?What do you think is causing that?
Yeah, I mean, I get that questiona lot.
For the longest time, even when mybrokerage, which was Compass
(08:37):
Mortgage Group, was growing.
And I'm not, you know, a hardcore
recruiter or heavy sales pressure.
I don't dial and say, hey, you
know, you need to come join us.
I meet people.
I build relationships.
My people are always like, so
what's your pitch?For the longest time, and I still
say it sometimes, but 15 yearsago, I used to say it is, I'm a
nice guy and I won't screw youover.
(08:58):
And people would go, wow, well,that sounds good.
And that's connected with a linethat my friend Tony Spagnuolo is a
big real estate lawyer in WesternCanada.
Because I asked him about how hebecame the biggest real estate law
firm in BC.
And he said, you just got to be a
three in a room full of twos.
That quote has always stuck with
me too.
So it's connected with, you know,
(09:19):
saying I'm a nice guy, I won'tscrew you over.
And it's true.
We value integrity and
transparency and our culture.
is very much that way.
And so some of it is reallysimple, like, you know, pay people
on time, be transparent, be openabout things, show them a little
bit behind the curtains aboutwhat's going on in the bigger
parts of the business and don'ttry to hide anything.
So it's super basic and supersimple.
We've just been a very peoplefocused business.
You know, the technology thing andeverything.
I mean, it's not like we're a bigfintech company and we're
(09:41):
developing tech, but we payattention to it and we kind of
look at it like.
Our job is to provide the best
infrastructure that we can so thatwhen an agent comes over, they
both have a nice culture andthey've got good relationships and
good camaraderie.
And then there's an infrastructure
that's built where they don't haveto think a lot about their
business other than just going andbeing a mortgage agent or a
mortgage broker.
So, I mean, some of it is just
probably that it's just a mindsetof how we look at our business and
(10:04):
how we think about it.
We don't think of ourselves as
necessarily even being in themortgage or the finance business
as much as we're in the peoplebusiness and we're trying to
provide the best.
environment for our people to be
successful with building theirbusiness.
So what sorts of things as youthink about the benefit of being a
part of a Tango corporate side,the office, like you said, like
our mortgage agents oftentimeswant to go out and just sell their
(10:26):
next mortgage.
And the more that you can remove
off their plate, the more that itallows them to do that.
What are some of those things thatTango will take off the plate of a
mortgage agent such that they canfocus on their clients and getting
their next deal?Yeah, I mean, and again, a lot of
those things are very simple, butsimple to you, maybe.
But for those who have gone out ontheir own and had to manage those
things on their own, they'resaying, like, I got into this to
(10:46):
do mortgages and I'm spending 50percent of my time not doing
mortgages.
Well, yeah, I mean, so when I say
simple, I mean, there are thingsliterally as simple as somebody
not having to worry aboutconstantly chasing down if they're
getting paid all the money theywere supposed to get paid or when
am I going to get paid?You know, especially when people
are starting out and struggling.
Like, so things just as simple as,
you know, getting compliance andpayroll done efficiently on time.
(11:06):
Apparently, you get to the pointwhere those agents aren't thinking
about that.
And, you know, they've had a
career where they're spendinghours of every part of their week
worrying about that and chasingthat down.
So like some of those things aresuper basic and simple.
We provide some confidence andsecurity.
Like we make sure that we've gotour lender partnership secured.
We make sure that we've got a goodreputation in the lender industry.
And somebody recently told me,somebody that had joined us, been
with us a few months, they saidthat they'd been with a couple
(11:27):
other brokerages.
And they used a term that I hadn't
heard, but they said, I got morelender respect since I joined you
than I had at the previousbrokerages.
And it wasn't even that they weresmall brokerages.
And so that's also something wepride ourselves in is we work
really hard to earn that lenderrespect and build genuine
partnerships with those people.
And then we provide.
a significant suite of tools.
Everybody doesn't use all of them,
but there's enough stuff therethat people won't have to spend a
(11:51):
lot of time searching.
If they want to look at different
options, we stay connected withwhat people are doing.
In terms of FinTech tools, CRMtools, we can at least help guide
them and point them in the rightdirection.
It's really just trying to be aresource.
Like I said, I'll use the wordinfrastructure again, where they
know that what they need is aroundthem.
And some people don't even realizeall of the things that are being
done for them because they've justalways been there.
(12:12):
So, you know, I had a conversationwith somebody that was kind of
like, OK, so what do you guys dofor me?
Like, I feel like I don't needanything.
I'm like, yeah, that's what we dofor you.
You don't feel like you needanything.
Yeah, it was a funny conversation.
But yeah, all the stuff that we're
doing in the background is thereason you feel like you don't
need anything.
Yeah, it sounds disparaging a
little bit, maybe to agents.
And I hope it doesn't because it's
not supposed to.
(12:32):
But I've even thought about it in
terms of like.
People with little kids, they go
to look at different daycares andstuff.
And there's all kinds of differentdaycares.
And some of them are going to havemore people to support.
So you like that one.
And they've got more facilities
and they've got better toys andthey've got a nice environment to
drop your kids on.
And some don't.
You just want a place where youcan drop your kids.
You know, they're going to be safeand they can play and you don't
(12:53):
have to worry about them.
And sometimes I kind of look at it
like that, too.
And not that I think that our
agents are children, but I look atit as like, I want to make sure
they've got, you know, they've gotall the support and a nice.
environment and a nice culture andall the toys that they need to
enjoy their day.
day.
Yeah.
That's a great way to think about
it.
And I love what you said about
people not even realizing like howfar you've probably come and
developed the systems that nowjust seem normal.
(13:13):
I've talked about this with ourteam often, especially when
someone joins our team today,they're like, you know, they just
get to do in their work andeverything just kind of works.
That wasn't always a real.
thing we had to develop that over
a long period of time or like youknow five years of continuous
iteration now things justseemingly like go off without a
hitch but i like to say like youknow it is the way it is because
we created it to be that way andwe take much of it for granted but
that's okay like that's how it'ssupposed to work i don't want you
(13:34):
to have to worry about that if youwant to you know work here and
worry about the front end then Dothat and we'll just support you
and give you everything that youneed to go out and execute your
business.
I do want to understand the
cultural side though, because youtalked about it in even choosing
the right daycare.
It's a good analogy.
I don't think anybody would takeoffense to that.
I think it shows a certain levelof care because the same thing
that I would do trying to find theright daycare for my children is
(13:55):
because I care about them deeplyand I want them to have the best
possible experience.
I want them to be the safest that
they can be and I want them to becared for in a certain way.
And now you're thinking about youragents.
There's some inexplicable orsometimes like off to the side,
explicable part of like culturethat you could feel.
My wife and I toured schools.
a wife and I toured schools.
We actually don't go to the schoolthat my kids get the bus to.
(14:17):
We actually drive them to the nextschool over, which we're actually
out of district for.
And this was my wife's decision,
by the way, so I can't take thecredit, but I'm like, why can't
they just go to the school thatthey get the bus to?
She's like, it's just a feelingthing.
I love that other school.
So we actually drive our kids to a
nearby school that is just out ofdistrict and it's feel, but I was
like, it's culture, right?Like feel is culture.
There's something about thisculture.
What is it about tango's culturethat you think is unique and how
(14:40):
much of that culture do they takeon versus if they were to, you
know, run on their own without atango in between?
Yeah, the culture thing is anambiguous sort of thing to try to
put in a box.
And we talk about it a lot because
we know we do have a good cultureand try to analyze, you know, OK,
why is that?What is it that makes that up?
We talk even to a lot of ourlender partners, you know, who end
up becoming close friends.
You know, we go on trips together
and stuff like that.
(15:01):
And when we actually do our large
Pango Rewards trip is when itbecomes really evident.
We'll take 100 people somewhere.
The feel that.
We get with all of our peopletogether and the feeling that they
all get.
I mean, they all want to spend
time together.
I mean, we went to Mexico in
February and the last day we hadthis rainy day, but we had this
like big area set up, a privatearea by the pool.
And I remember I was up in myroom, like getting some work done.
I look out and like, I want to seeif anybody's there.
(15:24):
I'm like, everybody's there andit's raining and they're all
sitting out in the rain.
And I ended up talking about it at
the dinner that night.
I go in a lot of different kinds
of.
trips in the industry and stuff
like that.
And I never would have thought on
any of those other ones that if itwas raining out, that everybody
just wouldn't be holed up in theirrooms instead of like everybody is
sitting outside in the rain.
(15:46):
You know, they're talking, they're
playing cards, they're socializingit.
And some of the lenders that werethere commented on that too.
It's like your people actuallywant to be together and they want
to spend time together.
What creates that?
I mean, people attract likepeople, right?
I mean, maybe it all goes back to,you know, we're nice guys, we
won't screw you over.
I mean, maybe it just starts there
and we bring other nice people inand we have a great collection of
nice people.
The other thing that I've thought
about about culture is culturedoesn't necessarily always mean
(16:09):
good culture.
We have a good culture, but
sometimes having a good culture isthe absence of bad culture.
So you let a bunch of negativethings in and things that are
toxic for the culture.
You know, some companies do it for
the sake of, well, there's a lotof money.
That's a high producer.
We're making money.
But if you let things that are notgood for your culture in, you can
spoil your culture as well.
So, you know.
A little bit of, again, basicstuff, just treating people well,
being nice to everybody.
You try more of that.
And then a little bit of trying toavoid letting anything in that
(16:30):
would be negative to the culture.
So Danny Meyer, the restaurateur,
has, I think, my favorite cultureand leadership quote around this,
which is that your culture is thesum of the behaviors that you
celebrate minus the behaviors thatyou tolerate.
That's good.
I thought about that often
because, you know, much what yousaid just there, it's like it's
not just what we allow and like,like, it's actually what we tell
people we don't like.
You tell people you don't like
with your actions because youcould say, you know, hey, like
that's unacceptable at ourculture.
(16:50):
But if you don't do anything aboutit, if you're not like we will
protect this good thing at allcosts and hold on to that, people
know that.
Right.
And they feel that.
So, you know, you're celebrating
those things that are important toyou, like doing good business.
I mean, you talked about greatpartnerships with your lenders,
your partner with our lender androcket pro now, and our teams are
working together and the feedbackon both sides from what I've seen,
it's all been extremely positiveand like, Hey, like the deals are
(17:13):
super clean.
These agents, they know what
they're doing, their structure.
in place when our underwriters
call them, they respond, right?Because that's the thing too.
It's like, you'll get an agentwho's like, I want my underwriter
to respond to me right away.
But then the underwriter will send
them a clarification or be it atext message or a phone call or
something in a portal.
And they're like, but now I don't
hear from this agent for twoweeks.
And then four days from closing,the agent's like, where are we at
(17:34):
on my deal?It's like, no, no, where have you
been?It's like a very two -way
relationship, but that gets builtinto the culture of both
organizations.
And that's what allows two people
to work together.
quite seamlessly.
That is what I'm hearing in theearly days since our teams have
launched.
There's something in the water.
I don't know what it is, butyou're obviously doing a very good
job at it.
And on that lender relationship
(17:54):
side too, I've talked about thisat some of our talks where I'm
giving talks or speaking in frontof our group.
And when we've got lenders, thereis like we throw the word partner
around.
Everybody's a partner.
Their lenders are a partner andthe insurers are partners and
everybody's partners.
Not everybody actually thinks
about what the literal definitionof partner is.
And it's a two way street.
So, you know, some people say, I
want my partner to do this andthis and this for me.
And they look at it as, you know,they're servicing me.
(18:16):
But the word partner should bethat you're caring about their
business and understanding theirbusiness and trying to help their
business as much as you'reexpecting them to look after your
needs and your business.
And I try to get that message out
a lot, because if we're going tokeep using the word partner, then,
you know, both sides have to actlike, you know.
what the meaning of partnershipis.
Yeah, that's very well said andcertainly well felt as well.
So I'm curious as CEO of Tango,where do you spend much of your
(18:38):
time today?Got to be very different from...
You know, being an individualproducer, I would presume.
How do you spend that time and howdoes it help the Tango team?
Yeah, I spend it on airplanes andin Marriott's.
and in Marriott's.
That's where most of my time is
spent.
And then some boardrooms and, you
know, some fun things to do, someparties and trips and stuff.
But the evolution goes like, OK,you're a mortgage agent.
OK, and then you're a brokerowner.
(18:59):
And as a broker owner, and thenyou're the DI of the brokerage.
There's a long time where you'rethe main point of contact with the
brokers, the agents and thelenders.
Once things get to a certain size,we had to realize.
You can't run a large organizationand continue to build, you know,
what I would call infrastructureand culture if you're on the phone
doing support type stuff.
So we had to add a layer
management that basically replacesthat broker owner.
So we've got managers that doexactly what, you know, if
(19:22):
somebody was running a 50 personor 100 person brokerage with that
business owner designatedindividual would do.
So we added a layer there so thatthat part.
still exists, that support andthat connectivity between the
brokers and the lenders stillexists.
And then Jason and I spend a lotof our time on the road.
We go to every event, we go toevery conference, you know, we go
on various trips with lenders andthings like that.
And that's just about continuingto build relationships.
(19:42):
Neither one of us are likehardcore salespeople, but we are
both relationship people.
And what I've found with building
those relationships, I mean, wehave people that joined us last
year that Our conversations thatstarted five or 10 years ago,
even.
And so rather than go and try to
sell people, and I did the samething when I was building a
referral network as an agent isnever a hardcore sales pitch, but
build relationships, you know, andif we don't work together, that's
(20:04):
fine.
I'm still going to enjoy this
relationship for the sake of therelationship.
And over time, if you justcontinue to live that way,
eventually.
That translates into growth where
there's now an attraction andthere's something that's changed
in that person's business, theirneeds, or they see something in
you or in your business that theylike.
And then they call you up and say,hey, you know, let's talk.
You know, I think it's about timewe talked about joining, even
though I've never asked them toleave their brokerage and join us.
(20:25):
The relationships, I'll use thatword a lot.
In the long run, they will happen.
Like even in sales, you know, I've
been a sales manager before andI've argued this with sales
managers or, you know, somebodywill have a really good week or a
good month.
I'll be like, yeah, you've really
been working hard this month.
Look at how it's paying off.
I'm like, that's from work that Idid a year and a half ago or two
(20:47):
years ago.
Like that's actually how it works.
And it's funny how a lot of salesmanagers.
don't understand that or can't seethat.
You know, there's no numbers for afew months and they think you're
not doing anything.
And then six months later, stuff
starts coming in and they thinkthat's because you suddenly
started working hard.
It's like, no, that was done a
long time ago.
Yeah.
So Jason and I, I mean, we'restrategizing, we're partnership
(21:08):
building and we're relationshipbuilding and just trying to keep
the momentum of that growth goingthrough relationships.
Yeah.
That's fantastic.
I love what you said.
Like oftentimes today's sale is
the result of work from six monthsago, or in some cases five years
ago, because you're just goingout, you're doing the right thing
every day.
People see that.
And when they think about like,Hey, where do I want to be?
(21:29):
How do I want to be viewed?And what kind of people do I want
to spend my time around?It becomes even more apparent the
longer you've been doing thisthing, because you realize,
especially as you becomesuccessful as a mortgage agent,
you're like, Hey, I can do thisjob.
Now I want to surround myself withpeople that are culturally.
aligned and you know that dean guyor that that jason guy they're
nice guys they don't screw peopleover on a related note we also
(21:50):
don't have any like real contractswe've got an agreement that says
you know you're going to do thesethings and we're going to do these
things but anybody can leave atany time so there's very little
risk for somebody to choose tojoin us and also if somebody's
been with us the whole time andlet's say they're one of those
people that's like you know i'mnot really sure what i'm getting
here and these other guys overhere are promising me a related
note we also don't have any likereal contracts we've got an
(22:11):
agreement that says you knowyou're going to do these things
and we're going to do these thingsbut anybody can leave at any time
so there's very little risk forsomebody to choose to join us and
also if somebody's been with usthe whole time and let's say
they're one of those people that'slike you know i'm not really sure
what i'm getting here and theseother guys over here are promising
me all kinds of wonderful things.
We're like, okay, well, yeah, you
can leave.
We wish you well.
You're always welcome to comeback.
The times when that has happened,they do come back.
Even that probably contributes tothe culture.
(22:32):
There aren't a bunch of peoplesitting around complaining about
how, you know, like, I'd reallylike to get out of this place.
But I'm trapped.
Four more years on my deal.
Imagine the toxicity that thoseconversations in an organization
can bring to the culture.
So whereas we've got a whole bunch
of people that can walk out thedoor tomorrow if they want.
And, you know, we'll give them ourblessing and keep the door open
for them.
(22:52):
Yeah, that's a really good
mission, actually.
So is that what ties back?
Because one of the things I wantto talk about.
You know, it's just that missionand what's driving you now.
Like when you get out of bed everymorning, sounds like you work
quite a bit, stay on the move,always trying to grow, recruit,
build.
What's driving and motivating you
today?So I'm not that motivated by
awards or recognition in someways, I'm not that motivated by
awards or recognition in someways, a little bit of a stealth
marketer.
I'm not always getting my name out
(23:13):
there prominently or, you know, wedon't even try that hard to get
our Tango name out there properly.
I get motivated.
When I think there's something Ican influence positively or
improve.
So I get motivated to think, okay,
how can I make our brokeragebetter?
I want to see us grow.
I want to continue to attract good
people.
I want to continue to maintain our
culture.
And as long as I feel like I can
have some positive influence onthe business, even on the business
as a whole, but especially ourbusiness.
And as well, the relationships.
I enjoy the relationships I have
in this business, thepartnerships.
As long as I feel I can continueto have a positive influence on
all of those areas, then.
I'm excited to go to work.
If I get to the point where Idon't think that I can infect any
positive change or moving forwardor just improve the business in
any way, then I'd probably getbored.
But we're not there.
Yeah.
So take you back to your days as amortgage agent because you've done
this job.
(23:34):
You've been in this business.
You've built it.
You've built yourself as an agent,
built a brokerage, whatnot.
What would you tell somebody who's
new in the industry, who's juststarting out as a mortgage agent
and trying to build?What are some things that maybe
you did early on to build?the business that you had and
eventually grew into.
How do you think about that?
Well, I was not a very goodmortgage agent.
I do know what I would do now andsome things that I would do
(23:56):
differently.
And I've said this on a few public
panels and stuff like that.
I was really good with my clients.
I was terrible with the lenders.
I mean, my applications were
sloppy.
I sent the worst notes.
I was always flying by the seat ofmy pants as far as let's just get
it in and we'll figure it out andmassage it into a deal later on.
Good at working with the client,definitely made a lot of mistakes
on the back end and I didn't haveany training.
(24:17):
I honestly didn't understand thevalue of nurturing the
relationship on the other side andeven the value of I could have
made my life a lot easier if I'dunderstood that a little extra
work on the front end would havebeen a good idea.
Back to what I said aboutpartnerships to treating your
lenders like a partner both waysis a good piece of advice.
And the other thing that isdifferent now, though, like, you
(24:37):
know, if I was to give somebodyadvice today and I do often, but
it wasn't necessarily the sameback then because the industry has
evolved so much as.
I really think people need to go
to a large brokerage now.
The industry's moved to a place
where, like, you know, back when Istarted, you get a license and
every brokerage wants you to signup with them and every lender
wants you to sign up with them.
They're begging for your business.
(24:59):
Like the day you start, theyweren't talking about efficiencies
back then.
They weren't talking about the
cost of acquiring a client.
They just wanted everybody.
Well, now, you know, you have toearn the access to all of the
products and all of thecompensation and, you know, access
to all the lenders.
You have to earn your place even
in a brokerage in a lot of cases.
It's a completely different world.
So, you know, I would say go to alarge brokerage where they've got
(25:20):
the access and they're buildingthat infrastructure.
So you have the best possibilityfor success as far as, you know,
you're going to get paid the most.
You're going to have all the
products.
You're going to have all the
lenders.
Again, you don't have to think
about those things.
They've got their payroll.
They got their compliance.
Everything's in place.
Everything's running.
And you can just do your business
because.
You know, lenders want you to earn
(25:40):
their business now.
It's completely reversed from the
way it was, you know, back when Istarted.
And I don't know that everybodyreally realizes that or just is
aware of it at all.
Yeah.
Or they'll take it, but they'llpay you 15 or 25 basis points less
because your brokerage isn'tthere, right?
I've talked to a lot of peopleabout what I view as like curtains
that you open as I went from anagent to a small brokerage, to a
medium brokerage, to a largebrokerage, to a larger brokerage.
To a really large brokerage, it'slike every level there was a
(26:02):
curtain pulled back.
There's all these things that you
had no idea even existed until youget there.
It's impossible for somebody toknow that when they're starting.
But then that's why I say, like,jump all the way to an established
larger brokerage and see behindmore of those curtains sooner than
later.
You don't have to take 10 or 15
years to figure it out like I did.
And you learn more about the
complexities of business, youknow, the capital markets and the
funding sources.
And the more you learn, the better
(26:22):
you're going to be at your job,the better your partner you're
going to be for your lender, thebetter you're going to be able to
explain what's going on to yourclients, why the business works
the way it is.
So, yeah, jump to a place where
you can see behind more curtains.
Yeah, it does take time.
You just keep climbing the ladderin our industry and everywhere you
go, you just keep learning more.
You said it earlier, but that's
still getting you out of bed everyday.
Like there's just still so muchmore to learn.
(26:44):
There's still so much more to do.
You can never possibly.
know it all.
So that learning is fun.
I'm still learning.
Been in this five years over here
in Canada and much longer in the U.S.
before that.
And I felt like I finally was
getting a good grasp on U .S.
markets and I started all over
again.
And I feel like I'm, you know,
five years in still just like justhave a mountain to climb of
knowledge, which is exciting.
(27:04):
So I appreciate that.
So as you think about this, Imean, you said, hey, like it would
be a lot harder to do what I do ifI wasn't excited about this.
It probably in some ways answersthe last question I had for you,
which is just impact.
What do you want your lasting
impact to be on Tango and on thisindustry?
And maybe in some ways, not to beso grandiose, but if you want to
go there, just life in general.
I I really only know how to go, I
(27:24):
guess, life in general.
As you can tell, I'm a bit of a
touchy -feely guy, so it's kind ofall connected for me.
It's similar probably to somethingI've already said, but I mean,
this is sort of a life missionthat I decided on a long time ago
and doing some, you know, the self-improvement exercises that we all
do at different times.
Yeah, at the end of my life, I've
always thought that anyrelationship I have, any
(27:45):
interaction I have, anything thatI'm involved in, the goal is for
that I want people to say that insome way, you know, they're glad,
you know, that we met, glad thatour lives interconnected, glad
that we had that relationship,that somehow it was a plus or a
bonus in their life.
It's kind of, you know, the old
saying of like, leave thingsbetter than you found them.
But if most of the people, or atleast a lot of people that I was
(28:07):
involved in and had the chance toinfluence and, you know, the
business that I've had a chance toinfluence.
If it's all like, yeah, we werebetter off for having that
interaction, having thatrelationship, knowing that person.
You know, I think that's theultimate goal that this person is
a positive.
It was a positive for my life.
Sounds maybe a little flowery andit's definitely not a hardcore
business philosophy, but I thinkit can translate well into your
business life too.
Yeah.
I think about like, about noteveryone's going to change the
world, but if you could changeyour own world and you could.
(28:28):
like slightly impact otherpeople's worlds with just kindness
you're doing the right thing everysingle day My birthday was
yesterday.
And interesting part about that.
I appreciate that.
It's like, there's a few people in
my life that I just, I can counton their birthday texts.
Interestingly, like people that Idon't even really connect with
every day.
But like, it's so funny because
I'm not even thinking about them364 days a year.
But then I get that birthday textevery year.
I know exactly what it's going tosay.
And I'm like, these people haveactually a pretty profound impact
(28:50):
on my life.
They make up a year when they
actually don't send that textanymore.
And I'll probably like, oh, youknow what?
After the fact, like they nevertext me.
That's kind of weird.
But I made a point to actually
take some time and thank them.
because they were just kind.
And we don't say enough kindthings to fellow human beings or
think about the impact that wehave, even in the small things,
the way we interact and shareourselves with others that makes a
difference in their lives.
(29:10):
So I don't think that's small at
all.
I think it's actually profound.
So thank you for sharing, Dean.
And again, You said that
partnership means more than justthe word.
I agree.
I do think we're building a
partnership.
I appreciate what you and Tango
are doing.
I have a lot of respect for that.
So thanks for that.
And then just thank you for giving
me some of your time today andsharing it with the audience that
we have.
I really appreciate the
conversation.
Hello, and thank you for listeningto this episode of the Lending
(00:02):
Thoughts podcast, sponsored byRocket Pro.
Today, I'm joined by Dean Larson,who's the president and CEO of
Tangle Financial.
We have a great conversation
ranging from how to be a greatpartner.
why you should be a part of alarge growing brokerage, and how
being a nice guy and not screwingpeople over can be a massive
(00:23):
competitive advantage in businessand in life.
Take a listen in today.
Thank you.
Dean, thank you for joining metoday.
Well, thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
So I always like to start out bygetting to know people a little
bit more.
So can you tell the audience your
(00:43):
life story in 60 seconds or less,please?
Sure, I'll give that a shot.
I was born in Calgary, didn't live
there very long, and moved to FortMcMurray for a few years.
As a small child, my dad was inconstruction, was building houses
in the 70s in Fort McMurray,Alberta during the oil boom.
So we moved around a little bitand then landed in Edmonton.
And I lived in Edmonton, Albertafor about 30 years.
As an adult, I started a fewentrepreneurial businesses.
(01:06):
They were a little bit focused onthe computer and tech space and
ended up becoming network designand technical IT support.
I fixed printers and computers,and I started designing networks
and doing IT support and sales.
Around that time, I got married
fairly young.
I've got three adult children and
five grandchildren.
I was recruited to a large IT
(01:26):
reseller in Edmonton, and I wasfortunate to get to be involved in
putting together some large.
Technology contracts with
government and universities andschool districts and health
regions.
And it was a good time.
Always wanted to move to BC.
So in 2006, my family and I moved
to Kelowna.
I loved Kelowna, but the reason
everybody doesn't live in Kelownais only because there are limited
(01:47):
career options unless you makeyour own.
And I started figuring out what Iwas going to do to be able to stay
in Kelowna forever and ended upgetting a mortgage broker license.
And that worked out.
That's the short version.
The chapter from there to herewould be harder to do in 60
seconds.
Well, there's a lot we could dive
into there, so maybe I'll try tojump in just a little bit.
First of all, on the hockey side,are you a Flames fan then, or are
(02:10):
you an Oilers fan, given that youlived in both Calgary and
Edmonton?Well, I'm definitely an Oilers
fan.
I chose to leave Calgary when I
was about a year old, so yeah.
Okay, so there was no roots that
your dad had stuck.
They're like, hey, no, we're
Flames to the death here.
Yeah, no, no. Boilers to the death
for sure.
Okay.
So you guys are on a better runright now.
Better to be an Oilers fan in thecommon times.
So there's been some ups anddowns, been some ups and downs,
(02:32):
but yeah, currently it's prettygood.
For sure.
For sure.
All right.
I appreciate that.
And then, you know, you said like,Hey, like I'm in BC now.
I got to figure something out.
Chose mortgage brokering, but I
want to understand more like.
Why?
Was it like a friend who was doingit?
Did you see a commercial?Because it's not a very natural,
you know, Google around a littlebit and then say like, all right,
mortgage brokering sounds like thething.
How did you fall into mortgage?As many say they do.
It was a friend, a friend, afriend that also had somewhat
(02:56):
recently discovered the mortgagebroker world who was from an
engineering background.
And I remember we were friends
from Edmonton and he moved toCalifornia doing energy sales with
a company from Edmonton.
And I distinctly remember this
funny conversation we had.
We were on Huntington.
Beach or Laguna Beach orsomething.
And we were talking.
He's like, yeah, my brother just
left his physiotherapy business.
He wants to be a mortgage broker
now.
And we both were like, what's a
mortgage broker?Like, is he crazy?
(03:18):
And we talk about this quite a bitnow because our.
careers have both progressed sincethen in that space.
But that was maybe a year beforewe both ended up getting a
mortgage broker.
So he worked for a large private
lender in Alberta and ended upbecoming an owner of it.
And when I was trying to figureout what to do in Kelowna, he
said, well, why don't you get amortgage broker license?
Maybe we'll work together someday,but why not just get that as a
(03:39):
backup plan?I still had another job at the
time.
And yeah, so it started out as a
fallback plan in case I lost myjob.
I didn't lose my job, but I endedup making the switch once I got
into it.
I'm a numbers guy.
I've always been a bit of a mathnerd combined with having some
sales background and peopleskills.
It was actually a pretty naturalfit for me.
Interesting.
So you actually mentioned the
background in sales and whatnot,but you said you also kind of came
up through technology.
(04:00):
Those things don't usually
intersect.
too well.
There's like the business people,often salespeople in our industry,
and then there's technologistssomewhere in our industry.
And you came up throughtechnology, evolved into sales.
How did you find a way to do both?And do you still find yourself in
the seat of doing both today?Like, do you identify as a
salesperson or as a technologist?I don't bring up the tech stuff as
much anymore.
(04:20):
You know, when I was in the tech
space, I was recruited to.
A few different companies
eventually after doing a bunch ofstuff on my own and without trying
to sound arrogant about it.
I mean, being able to design a
network and at the same time beingable to talk about it and sell it
and, you know, be a sales guy wasnot a combination of skills that
everybody had.
You had your techie nerds that,
you know, you didn't want to putin front of people.
(04:43):
And then you had your sales guysthat barely understood how
anything worked.
That was a benefit to me that I
was actually able to do both ofthose things.
And then, honestly, when I startedmortgage brokering, it ended up
being a help to having someknowledge of that space because,
you know, in 2007, technology wasdefinitely not that big of a part
of the mortgage space.
And I was living in a province in
a city where I didn't knowanybody.
So it wasn't, you know, the sameway that a lot of people would do
(05:06):
it, where they just go to alltheir friends and everything and
community.
So I ended up, you know, was kind
of an early adopter of Twitter anda lot of social media things.
I was an early adopter of GoogleAdWords and online advertising.
And most of my business was built,at least in the first couple of
years, using technology and a lotof online marketing and things
like that.
So it did give me some advantages
when I first got going.
I was able to do things that not
(05:26):
everybody was doing yet.
That's really interesting.
And when you think about thetrajectory from there, I mean, how
does one go from being early days,individual mortgage agent to now
becoming the... president of alarge, I mean, really a financial
group in Tango like you are today.
Like what was that journey that
led you to what you're doing rightnow?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a good luck and
fortune.
It's funny always when you think
about the journey that leads youto where you are, it definitely
(05:48):
was never a plan.
Like I started doing some
brokering.
A friend of mine said, well, hey,
we'd really like you to come workfor us for our private lender.
Let's have you do, you know,business development and stuff for
us in Western Canada.
I'm like, look, I'm already making
decent money as a mortgage broker.
I don't.
really know how to make that workif I'm working for you guys.
And then we said, well, let'sstart a mortgage brokerage then
(06:10):
and you can keep doing yourbrokering while also doing
business development for us.
So that was the first step.
We did that for a few years.
There was never supposed to be a
brokerage where we were recruitingpeople.
But as I met people, got to knowpeople, you know, we kept having
people saying, I want to come workwith you and I want to come work
with you.
And, you know, I remember one day
I'm like, we have like 10 people.
And then I remember we have 20
(06:31):
people.
I'm like, OK, now we've got a
brokerage.
I shifted the focus to the
brokerage and away from even thebusiness development I was doing
on the private lending side,pulled the brokerage away from
that lender and just focused onbuilding the brokerage and still
managing my book because, youknow, that's how you pay the bills
until.
The brokerage gets large enough.
We had a very quick rise in thegrowth, especially for an interior
based brokerage.
You know, all of a sudden we got
40, 50, 60 people and we were oneof the bigger brokerages in B
(06:51):
C., certainly the biggest based inthe interior.
And then my partner, JasonHanaberry, came up with this idea
to form a company called TangoFinancial.
To be somewhat of a tech forwardand at least innovative thinking
brokerage, but to bring somebrokerages together, amalgamate
them, take the revenues combinedand be able to spend it on
actually innovating the brokerageand the integration with
technology and the brokerage.
So Tango was formed and Tango
actually bought my brokerage fromme at that point and a couple
(07:14):
other brokerages.
And then we had a whole bunch of
like broker owners.
Took us a few years actually to.
to put everybody in the rightspots and figure out who's staying
and who's retiring and whateverybody's going to do.
And there was a lot of bumps inthat.
You can definitely end up with toomany cooks when you try to bring a
bunch of companies together.
And somewhere through that
(07:34):
process, I ended up as the CEO ofthe company.
Jason is my COO.
I mean, we were both in and out
even at different times.
Not sure if we were even going to
be part of Tango, but we've got astreamlined operation now.
Him and I are working really welltogether and we've been growing
by, you know, 100 people a yearfor the last four or five years.
So including last year, we stilladded 100 people.
(07:55):
We've got momentum and we're justgoing with it.
But, you know, it was never theplan that anybody, you know,
thinks they're going to go withwhen they first start.
Yeah, very interesting because Ihave been watching you guys just
grow like that.
Know Jason a bit, a previous
company that he had in LenderSpotlight was actually acquired by
Lendask, which is a sister companyof ours.
So there's just, you know, there'ssome connections there and you
guys just seem to be, you know,applying a similar idea, which is
(08:16):
mortgage brokering combined withsome level of technology and
digital know -how and growingthat.
But what is creating this at atime when...
Mortgage brokers are leaving theindustry.
Our industry is shrinking a bit interms of aggregate numbers because
transactions have shrunk.
Yet you guys are getting a
migration of agents.
What do you think that is?
Is it cultural?Is it a movement?
Is it platform?What do you think is causing that?
Yeah, I mean, I get that questiona lot.
For the longest time, even when mybrokerage, which was Compass
(08:37):
Mortgage Group, was growing.
And I'm not, you know, a hardcore
recruiter or heavy sales pressure.
I don't dial and say, hey, you
know, you need to come join us.
I meet people.
I build relationships.
My people are always like, so
what's your pitch?For the longest time, and I still
say it sometimes, but 15 yearsago, I used to say it is, I'm a
nice guy and I won't screw youover.
(08:58):
And people would go, wow, well,that sounds good.
And that's connected with a linethat my friend Tony Spagnuolo is a
big real estate lawyer in WesternCanada.
Because I asked him about how hebecame the biggest real estate law
firm in BC.
And he said, you just got to be a
three in a room full of twos.
That quote has always stuck with
me too.
So it's connected with, you know,
(09:19):
saying I'm a nice guy, I won'tscrew you over.
And it's true.
We value integrity and
transparency and our culture.
is very much that way.
And so some of it is reallysimple, like, you know, pay people
on time, be transparent, be openabout things, show them a little
bit behind the curtains aboutwhat's going on in the bigger
parts of the business and don'ttry to hide anything.
So it's super basic and supersimple.
We've just been a very peoplefocused business.
You know, the technology thing andeverything.
I mean, it's not like we're a bigfintech company and we're
(09:41):
developing tech, but we payattention to it and we kind of
look at it like.
Our job is to provide the best
infrastructure that we can so thatwhen an agent comes over, they
both have a nice culture andthey've got good relationships and
good camaraderie.
And then there's an infrastructure
that's built where they don't haveto think a lot about their
business other than just going andbeing a mortgage agent or a
mortgage broker.
So, I mean, some of it is just
probably that it's just a mindsetof how we look at our business and
(10:04):
how we think about it.
We don't think of ourselves as
necessarily even being in themortgage or the finance business
as much as we're in the peoplebusiness and we're trying to
provide the best.
environment for our people to be
successful with building theirbusiness.
So what sorts of things as youthink about the benefit of being a
part of a Tango corporate side,the office, like you said, like
our mortgage agents oftentimeswant to go out and just sell their
(10:26):
next mortgage.
And the more that you can remove
off their plate, the more that itallows them to do that.
What are some of those things thatTango will take off the plate of a
mortgage agent such that they canfocus on their clients and getting
their next deal?Yeah, I mean, and again, a lot of
those things are very simple, butsimple to you, maybe.
But for those who have gone out ontheir own and had to manage those
things on their own, they'resaying, like, I got into this to
(10:46):
do mortgages and I'm spending 50percent of my time not doing
mortgages.
Well, yeah, I mean, so when I say
simple, I mean, there are thingsliterally as simple as somebody
not having to worry aboutconstantly chasing down if they're
getting paid all the money theywere supposed to get paid or when
am I going to get paid?You know, especially when people
are starting out and struggling.
Like, so things just as simple as,
you know, getting compliance andpayroll done efficiently on time.
(11:06):
Apparently, you get to the pointwhere those agents aren't thinking
about that.
And, you know, they've had a
career where they're spendinghours of every part of their week
worrying about that and chasingthat down.
So like some of those things aresuper basic and simple.
We provide some confidence andsecurity.
Like we make sure that we've gotour lender partnership secured.
We make sure that we've got a goodreputation in the lender industry.
And somebody recently told me,somebody that had joined us, been
with us a few months, they saidthat they'd been with a couple
(11:27):
other brokerages.
And they used a term that I hadn't
heard, but they said, I got morelender respect since I joined you
than I had at the previousbrokerages.
And it wasn't even that they weresmall brokerages.
And so that's also something wepride ourselves in is we work
really hard to earn that lenderrespect and build genuine
partnerships with those people.
And then we provide.
a significant suite of tools.
Everybody doesn't use all of them,
but there's enough stuff therethat people won't have to spend a
(11:51):
lot of time searching.
If they want to look at different
options, we stay connected withwhat people are doing.
In terms of FinTech tools, CRMtools, we can at least help guide
them and point them in the rightdirection.
It's really just trying to be aresource.
Like I said, I'll use the wordinfrastructure again, where they
know that what they need is aroundthem.
And some people don't even realizeall of the things that are being
done for them because they've justalways been there.
(12:12):
So, you know, I had a conversationwith somebody that was kind of
like, OK, so what do you guys dofor me?
Like, I feel like I don't needanything.
I'm like, yeah, that's what we dofor you.
You don't feel like you needanything.
Yeah, it was a funny conversation.
But yeah, all the stuff that we're
doing in the background is thereason you feel like you don't
need anything.
Yeah, it sounds disparaging a
little bit, maybe to agents.
And I hope it doesn't because it's
not supposed to.
(12:32):
But I've even thought about it in
terms of like.
People with little kids, they go
to look at different daycares andstuff.
And there's all kinds of differentdaycares.
And some of them are going to havemore people to support.
So you like that one.
And they've got more facilities
and they've got better toys andthey've got a nice environment to
drop your kids on.
And some don't.
You just want a place where youcan drop your kids.
You know, they're going to be safeand they can play and you don't
(12:53):
have to worry about them.
And sometimes I kind of look at it
like that, too.
And not that I think that our
agents are children, but I look atit as like, I want to make sure
they've got, you know, they've gotall the support and a nice.
environment and a nice culture andall the toys that they need to
enjoy their day.
day.
Yeah.
That's a great way to think about
it.
And I love what you said about
people not even realizing like howfar you've probably come and
developed the systems that nowjust seem normal.
(13:13):
I've talked about this with ourteam often, especially when
someone joins our team today,they're like, you know, they just
get to do in their work andeverything just kind of works.
That wasn't always a real.
thing we had to develop that over
a long period of time or like youknow five years of continuous
iteration now things justseemingly like go off without a
hitch but i like to say like youknow it is the way it is because
we created it to be that way andwe take much of it for granted but
that's okay like that's how it'ssupposed to work i don't want you
(13:34):
to have to worry about that if youwant to you know work here and
worry about the front end then Dothat and we'll just support you
and give you everything that youneed to go out and execute your
business.
I do want to understand the
cultural side though, because youtalked about it in even choosing
the right daycare.
It's a good analogy.
I don't think anybody would takeoffense to that.
I think it shows a certain levelof care because the same thing
that I would do trying to find theright daycare for my children is
(13:55):
because I care about them deeplyand I want them to have the best
possible experience.
I want them to be the safest that
they can be and I want them to becared for in a certain way.
And now you're thinking about youragents.
There's some inexplicable orsometimes like off to the side,
explicable part of like culturethat you could feel.
My wife and I toured schools.
a wife and I toured schools.
We actually don't go to the schoolthat my kids get the bus to.
(14:17):
We actually drive them to the nextschool over, which we're actually
out of district for.
And this was my wife's decision,
by the way, so I can't take thecredit, but I'm like, why can't
they just go to the school thatthey get the bus to?
She's like, it's just a feelingthing.
I love that other school.
So we actually drive our kids to a
nearby school that is just out ofdistrict and it's feel, but I was
like, it's culture, right?Like feel is culture.
There's something about thisculture.
What is it about tango's culturethat you think is unique and how
(14:40):
much of that culture do they takeon versus if they were to, you
know, run on their own without atango in between?
Yeah, the culture thing is anambiguous sort of thing to try to
put in a box.
And we talk about it a lot because
we know we do have a good cultureand try to analyze, you know, OK,
why is that?What is it that makes that up?
We talk even to a lot of ourlender partners, you know, who end
up becoming close friends.
You know, we go on trips together
and stuff like that.
(15:01):
And when we actually do our large
Pango Rewards trip is when itbecomes really evident.
We'll take 100 people somewhere.
The feel that.
We get with all of our peopletogether and the feeling that they
all get.
I mean, they all want to spend
time together.
I mean, we went to Mexico in
February and the last day we hadthis rainy day, but we had this
like big area set up, a privatearea by the pool.
And I remember I was up in myroom, like getting some work done.
I look out and like, I want to seeif anybody's there.
(15:24):
I'm like, everybody's there andit's raining and they're all
sitting out in the rain.
And I ended up talking about it at
the dinner that night.
I go in a lot of different kinds
of.
trips in the industry and stuff
like that.
And I never would have thought on
any of those other ones that if itwas raining out, that everybody
just wouldn't be holed up in theirrooms instead of like everybody is
sitting outside in the rain.
(15:46):
You know, they're talking, they're
playing cards, they're socializingit.
And some of the lenders that werethere commented on that too.
It's like your people actuallywant to be together and they want
to spend time together.
What creates that?
I mean, people attract likepeople, right?
I mean, maybe it all goes back to,you know, we're nice guys, we
won't screw you over.
I mean, maybe it just starts there
and we bring other nice people inand we have a great collection of
nice people.
The other thing that I've thought
about about culture is culturedoesn't necessarily always mean
(16:09):
good culture.
We have a good culture, but
sometimes having a good culture isthe absence of bad culture.
So you let a bunch of negativethings in and things that are
toxic for the culture.
You know, some companies do it for
the sake of, well, there's a lotof money.
That's a high producer.
We're making money.
But if you let things that are notgood for your culture in, you can
spoil your culture as well.
So, you know.
A little bit of, again, basicstuff, just treating people well,
being nice to everybody.
You try more of that.
And then a little bit of trying toavoid letting anything in that
(16:30):
would be negative to the culture.
So Danny Meyer, the restaurateur,
has, I think, my favorite cultureand leadership quote around this,
which is that your culture is thesum of the behaviors that you
celebrate minus the behaviors thatyou tolerate.
That's good.
I thought about that often
because, you know, much what yousaid just there, it's like it's
not just what we allow and like,like, it's actually what we tell
people we don't like.
You tell people you don't like
with your actions because youcould say, you know, hey, like
that's unacceptable at ourculture.
(16:50):
But if you don't do anything aboutit, if you're not like we will
protect this good thing at allcosts and hold on to that, people
know that.
Right.
And they feel that.
So, you know, you're celebrating
those things that are important toyou, like doing good business.
I mean, you talked about greatpartnerships with your lenders,
your partner with our lender androcket pro now, and our teams are
working together and the feedbackon both sides from what I've seen,
it's all been extremely positiveand like, Hey, like the deals are
(17:13):
super clean.
These agents, they know what
they're doing, their structure.
in place when our underwriters
call them, they respond, right?Because that's the thing too.
It's like, you'll get an agentwho's like, I want my underwriter
to respond to me right away.
But then the underwriter will send
them a clarification or be it atext message or a phone call or
something in a portal.
And they're like, but now I don't
hear from this agent for twoweeks.
And then four days from closing,the agent's like, where are we at
(17:34):
on my deal?It's like, no, no, where have you
been?It's like a very two -way
relationship, but that gets builtinto the culture of both
organizations.
And that's what allows two people
to work together.
quite seamlessly.
That is what I'm hearing in theearly days since our teams have
launched.
There's something in the water.
I don't know what it is, butyou're obviously doing a very good
job at it.
And on that lender relationship
(17:54):
side too, I've talked about thisat some of our talks where I'm
giving talks or speaking in frontof our group.
And when we've got lenders, thereis like we throw the word partner
around.
Everybody's a partner.
Their lenders are a partner andthe insurers are partners and
everybody's partners.
Not everybody actually thinks
about what the literal definitionof partner is.
And it's a two way street.
So, you know, some people say, I
want my partner to do this andthis and this for me.
And they look at it as, you know,they're servicing me.
(18:16):
But the word partner should bethat you're caring about their
business and understanding theirbusiness and trying to help their
business as much as you'reexpecting them to look after your
needs and your business.
And I try to get that message out
a lot, because if we're going tokeep using the word partner, then,
you know, both sides have to actlike, you know.
what the meaning of partnershipis.
Yeah, that's very well said andcertainly well felt as well.
So I'm curious as CEO of Tango,where do you spend much of your
(18:38):
time today?Got to be very different from...
You know, being an individualproducer, I would presume.
How do you spend that time and howdoes it help the Tango team?
Yeah, I spend it on airplanes andin Marriott's.
and in Marriott's.
That's where most of my time is
spent.
And then some boardrooms and, you
know, some fun things to do, someparties and trips and stuff.
But the evolution goes like, OK,you're a mortgage agent.
OK, and then you're a brokerowner.
(18:59):
And as a broker owner, and thenyou're the DI of the brokerage.
There's a long time where you'rethe main point of contact with the
brokers, the agents and thelenders.
Once things get to a certain size,we had to realize.
You can't run a large organizationand continue to build, you know,
what I would call infrastructureand culture if you're on the phone
doing support type stuff.
So we had to add a layer
management that basically replacesthat broker owner.
So we've got managers that doexactly what, you know, if
(19:22):
somebody was running a 50 personor 100 person brokerage with that
business owner designatedindividual would do.
So we added a layer there so thatthat part.
still exists, that support andthat connectivity between the
brokers and the lenders stillexists.
And then Jason and I spend a lotof our time on the road.
We go to every event, we go toevery conference, you know, we go
on various trips with lenders andthings like that.
And that's just about continuingto build relationships.
(19:42):
Neither one of us are likehardcore salespeople, but we are
both relationship people.
And what I've found with building
those relationships, I mean, wehave people that joined us last
year that Our conversations thatstarted five or 10 years ago,
even.
And so rather than go and try to
sell people, and I did the samething when I was building a
referral network as an agent isnever a hardcore sales pitch, but
build relationships, you know, andif we don't work together, that's
(20:04):
fine.
I'm still going to enjoy this
relationship for the sake of therelationship.
And over time, if you justcontinue to live that way,
eventually.
That translates into growth where
there's now an attraction andthere's something that's changed
in that person's business, theirneeds, or they see something in
you or in your business that theylike.
And then they call you up and say,hey, you know, let's talk.
You know, I think it's about timewe talked about joining, even
though I've never asked them toleave their brokerage and join us.
(20:25):
The relationships, I'll use thatword a lot.
In the long run, they will happen.
Like even in sales, you know, I've
been a sales manager before andI've argued this with sales
managers or, you know, somebodywill have a really good week or a
good month.
I'll be like, yeah, you've really
been working hard this month.
Look at how it's paying off.
I'm like, that's from work that Idid a year and a half ago or two
(20:47):
years ago.
Like that's actually how it works.
And it's funny how a lot of salesmanagers.
don't understand that or can't seethat.
You know, there's no numbers for afew months and they think you're
not doing anything.
And then six months later, stuff
starts coming in and they thinkthat's because you suddenly
started working hard.
It's like, no, that was done a
long time ago.
Yeah.
So Jason and I, I mean, we'restrategizing, we're partnership
(21:08):
building and we're relationshipbuilding and just trying to keep
the momentum of that growth goingthrough relationships.
Yeah.
That's fantastic.
I love what you said.
Like oftentimes today's sale is
the result of work from six monthsago, or in some cases five years
ago, because you're just goingout, you're doing the right thing
every day.
People see that.
And when they think about like,Hey, where do I want to be?
(21:29):
How do I want to be viewed?And what kind of people do I want
to spend my time around?It becomes even more apparent the
longer you've been doing thisthing, because you realize,
especially as you becomesuccessful as a mortgage agent,
you're like, Hey, I can do thisjob.
Now I want to surround myself withpeople that are culturally.
aligned and you know that dean guyor that that jason guy they're
nice guys they don't screw peopleover on a related note we also
(21:50):
don't have any like real contractswe've got an agreement that says
you know you're going to do thesethings and we're going to do these
things but anybody can leave atany time so there's very little
risk for somebody to choose tojoin us and also if somebody's
been with us the whole time andlet's say they're one of those
people that's like you know i'mnot really sure what i'm getting
here and these other guys overhere are promising me a related
note we also don't have any likereal contracts we've got an
(22:11):
agreement that says you knowyou're going to do these things
and we're going to do these thingsbut anybody can leave at any time
so there's very little risk forsomebody to choose to join us and
also if somebody's been with usthe whole time and let's say
they're one of those people that'slike you know i'm not really sure
what i'm getting here and theseother guys over here are promising
me all kinds of wonderful things.
We're like, okay, well, yeah, you
can leave.
We wish you well.
You're always welcome to comeback.
The times when that has happened,they do come back.
Even that probably contributes tothe culture.
(22:32):
There aren't a bunch of peoplesitting around complaining about
how, you know, like, I'd reallylike to get out of this place.
But I'm trapped.
Four more years on my deal.
Imagine the toxicity that thoseconversations in an organization
can bring to the culture.
So whereas we've got a whole bunch
of people that can walk out thedoor tomorrow if they want.
And, you know, we'll give them ourblessing and keep the door open
for them.
(22:52):
Yeah, that's a really good
mission, actually.
So is that what ties back?
Because one of the things I wantto talk about.
You know, it's just that missionand what's driving you now.
Like when you get out of bed everymorning, sounds like you work
quite a bit, stay on the move,always trying to grow, recruit,
build.
What's driving and motivating you
today?So I'm not that motivated by
awards or recognition in someways, I'm not that motivated by
awards or recognition in someways, a little bit of a stealth
marketer.
I'm not always getting my name out
(23:13):
there prominently or, you know, wedon't even try that hard to get
our Tango name out there properly.
I get motivated.
When I think there's something Ican influence positively or
improve.
So I get motivated to think, okay,
how can I make our brokeragebetter?
I want to see us grow.
I want to continue to attract good
people.
I want to continue to maintain our
culture.
And as long as I feel like I can
have some positive influence onthe business, even on the business
as a whole, but especially ourbusiness.
And as well, the relationships.
I enjoy the relationships I have
in this business, thepartnerships.
As long as I feel I can continueto have a positive influence on
all of those areas, then.
I'm excited to go to work.
If I get to the point where Idon't think that I can infect any
positive change or moving forwardor just improve the business in
any way, then I'd probably getbored.
But we're not there.
Yeah.
So take you back to your days as amortgage agent because you've done
this job.
(23:34):
You've been in this business.
You've built it.
You've built yourself as an agent,
built a brokerage, whatnot.
What would you tell somebody who's
new in the industry, who's juststarting out as a mortgage agent
and trying to build?What are some things that maybe
you did early on to build?the business that you had and
eventually grew into.
How do you think about that?
Well, I was not a very goodmortgage agent.
I do know what I would do now andsome things that I would do
(23:56):
differently.
And I've said this on a few public
panels and stuff like that.
I was really good with my clients.
I was terrible with the lenders.
I mean, my applications were
sloppy.
I sent the worst notes.
I was always flying by the seat ofmy pants as far as let's just get
it in and we'll figure it out andmassage it into a deal later on.
Good at working with the client,definitely made a lot of mistakes
on the back end and I didn't haveany training.
(24:17):
I honestly didn't understand thevalue of nurturing the
relationship on the other side andeven the value of I could have
made my life a lot easier if I'dunderstood that a little extra
work on the front end would havebeen a good idea.
Back to what I said aboutpartnerships to treating your
lenders like a partner both waysis a good piece of advice.
And the other thing that isdifferent now, though, like, you
(24:37):
know, if I was to give somebodyadvice today and I do often, but
it wasn't necessarily the sameback then because the industry has
evolved so much as.
I really think people need to go
to a large brokerage now.
The industry's moved to a place
where, like, you know, back when Istarted, you get a license and
every brokerage wants you to signup with them and every lender
wants you to sign up with them.
They're begging for your business.
(24:59):
Like the day you start, theyweren't talking about efficiencies
back then.
They weren't talking about the
cost of acquiring a client.
They just wanted everybody.
Well, now, you know, you have toearn the access to all of the
products and all of thecompensation and, you know, access
to all the lenders.
You have to earn your place even
in a brokerage in a lot of cases.
It's a completely different world.
So, you know, I would say go to alarge brokerage where they've got
(25:20):
the access and they're buildingthat infrastructure.
So you have the best possibilityfor success as far as, you know,
you're going to get paid the most.
You're going to have all the
products.
You're going to have all the
lenders.
Again, you don't have to think
about those things.
They've got their payroll.
They got their compliance.
Everything's in place.
Everything's running.
And you can just do your business
because.
You know, lenders want you to earn
(25:40):
their business now.
It's completely reversed from the
way it was, you know, back when Istarted.
And I don't know that everybodyreally realizes that or just is
aware of it at all.
Yeah.
Or they'll take it, but they'llpay you 15 or 25 basis points less
because your brokerage isn'tthere, right?
I've talked to a lot of peopleabout what I view as like curtains
that you open as I went from anagent to a small brokerage, to a
medium brokerage, to a largebrokerage, to a larger brokerage.
To a really large brokerage, it'slike every level there was a
(26:02):
curtain pulled back.
There's all these things that you
had no idea even existed until youget there.
It's impossible for somebody toknow that when they're starting.
But then that's why I say, like,jump all the way to an established
larger brokerage and see behindmore of those curtains sooner than
later.
You don't have to take 10 or 15
years to figure it out like I did.
And you learn more about the
complexities of business, youknow, the capital markets and the
funding sources.
And the more you learn, the better
(26:22):
you're going to be at your job,the better your partner you're
going to be for your lender, thebetter you're going to be able to
explain what's going on to yourclients, why the business works
the way it is.
So, yeah, jump to a place where
you can see behind more curtains.
Yeah, it does take time.
You just keep climbing the ladderin our industry and everywhere you
go, you just keep learning more.
You said it earlier, but that's
still getting you out of bed everyday.
Like there's just still so muchmore to learn.
(26:44):
There's still so much more to do.
You can never possibly.
know it all.
So that learning is fun.
I'm still learning.
Been in this five years over here
in Canada and much longer in the U.S.
before that.
And I felt like I finally was
getting a good grasp on U .S.
markets and I started all over
again.
And I feel like I'm, you know,
five years in still just like justhave a mountain to climb of
knowledge, which is exciting.
(27:04):
So I appreciate that.
So as you think about this, Imean, you said, hey, like it would
be a lot harder to do what I do ifI wasn't excited about this.
It probably in some ways answersthe last question I had for you,
which is just impact.
What do you want your lasting
impact to be on Tango and on thisindustry?
And maybe in some ways, not to beso grandiose, but if you want to
go there, just life in general.
I I really only know how to go, I
(27:24):
guess, life in general.
As you can tell, I'm a bit of a
touchy -feely guy, so it's kind ofall connected for me.
It's similar probably to somethingI've already said, but I mean,
this is sort of a life missionthat I decided on a long time ago
and doing some, you know, the self-improvement exercises that we all
do at different times.
Yeah, at the end of my life, I've
always thought that anyrelationship I have, any
(27:45):
interaction I have, anything thatI'm involved in, the goal is for
that I want people to say that insome way, you know, they're glad,
you know, that we met, glad thatour lives interconnected, glad
that we had that relationship,that somehow it was a plus or a
bonus in their life.
It's kind of, you know, the old
saying of like, leave thingsbetter than you found them.
But if most of the people, or atleast a lot of people that I was
(28:07):
involved in and had the chance toinfluence and, you know, the
business that I've had a chance toinfluence.
If it's all like, yeah, we werebetter off for having that
interaction, having thatrelationship, knowing that person.
You know, I think that's theultimate goal that this person is
a positive.
It was a positive for my life.
Sounds maybe a little flowery andit's definitely not a hardcore
business philosophy, but I thinkit can translate well into your
business life too.
Yeah.
I think about like, about noteveryone's going to change the
world, but if you could changeyour own world and you could.
(28:28):
like slightly impact otherpeople's worlds with just kindness
you're doing the right thing everysingle day My birthday was
yesterday.
And interesting part about that.
I appreciate that.
It's like, there's a few people in
my life that I just, I can counton their birthday texts.
Interestingly, like people that Idon't even really connect with
every day.
But like, it's so funny because
I'm not even thinking about them364 days a year.
But then I get that birthday textevery year.
I know exactly what it's going tosay.
And I'm like, these people haveactually a pretty profound impact
(28:50):
on my life.
They make up a year when they
actually don't send that textanymore.
And I'll probably like, oh, youknow what?
After the fact, like they nevertext me.
That's kind of weird.
But I made a point to actually
take some time and thank them.
because they were just kind.
And we don't say enough kindthings to fellow human beings or
think about the impact that wehave, even in the small things,
the way we interact and shareourselves with others that makes a
difference in their lives.
(29:10):
So I don't think that's small at
all.
I think it's actually profound.
So thank you for sharing, Dean.
And again, You said that
partnership means more than justthe word.
I agree.
I do think we're building a
partnership.
I appreciate what you and Tango
are doing.
I have a lot of respect for that.
So thanks for that.
And then just thank you for giving
me some of your time today andsharing it with the audience that
we have.
I really appreciate the
conversation.
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