February 26, 2025 • 39 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Bekim is joined by Christine Buemann. Christine is a Mortgage Broker and also a Co-Founder & Co-Owner of The Collective Mortgage Group from Prince George, BC. Christine started her mortgage journey in 2010 at 24-years-old, priding herself on making her clients' well-being her utmost priority. Since 2022, Christine has also been a "cancer thriver", and candidly shares her courageous journey with the world. The Collective Mortgage Group is a boutique brokerage designed for experienced Brokers to maintain their autonomy.
Christine is here to discuss: → Becoming a broker and her current role in her business, how to run a boutique brokerage, and cultivating the correct company culture. → Process and design mapping to build the business you want, creating structure with action-based goals, and why you must have an avatar client. → Compassion over self-criticism, contentment over happiness, and fulfillment in the everyday. → Redefining what it means to be successful, embracing community, and the gift of perspective.
Collective Mortgage Group Website: www.thecollectivemortgage.ca
Collective Mortgage Group LinkedIn: @CollectiveMortgageGroup
Christine Buemann Mortgage Team Website: www.christinebuemann.ca
Christine Buemann Mortgage Team Instagram: @christinebuemannmortgage
Christine Buemann's LinkedIn: @ChristineBuemann
Christine Buemann's Instagram: @christinebuemann
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the Lending Thoughts
(00:02):
podcast sponsored by Rocket Pro.
Today, I'll be talking to
Christine Buhman, a friend of mineand one of the co -founders of the
Collective Mortgage Group.
Christine talks about compassion
over criticism of thyself.
We talk about process and design
mapping so that you can build themortgage business that you want.
And we talk about avoidinghappiness.
and instead chasing contentment sothat you can build and design the
(00:26):
life and the mortgage businessthat you've always desired.
Listen in.
Christine, thank you so much for
joining me today.
Thanks so much for having me.
Absolutely.
So for those who don't know you,
can you please tell your lifestory in 60 seconds or less?
(00:46):
That's a great question.
And I should have been more
prepared for it.
I would say I was born in Victoria
and then spent most of my life ina small town.
I had a complicated childhood andfell quickly in love with real
estate and mortgages and became abroker when I was 24.
And that was a less than warmwelcome into an old boys club.
(01:08):
So lots of experiences, lots ofwisdom earned those early years in
brokering.
And then started my own brokerage
in 2020.
And throughout that window of
time, had babies and moved houses.
I'm a longtime property investor
myself as well.
So have done a lot of different
(01:29):
investment scenarios.
Other than that, I would say
mommy, mortgage broker, student oflife, and as of late, cancer
thriver.
That's amazing.
Yeah, you have an incrediblejourney.
I know a lot of people arefollowing along on your journey as
well and rooting you on in thatregard.
So I'm curious because I'm alwayslooking to learn how people land
(01:50):
in this mortgage business.
You said that you kind of like
fell in love with real estate andmortgage from like a very young
age.
What do you think caused that?
What led to that?That's a good question.
My dad, when I was really young,would pay me the value of a book
for self -help books.
And so where other people were
reading like Goosebumps, I wasreading How to Win Friends and
Influence People.
Probably from that foundation, I
wanted to be self -employed.
(02:11):
I wanted the freedom and the
ability to make as much money as Iwanted to be able to cultivate a
life that was in alignment withwhat felt great for me.
I have a very flexiblepersonality.
So and I'm also fiercelyindependent.
So working for myself felt like itwas going to be the best solution
(02:32):
for me.
And so, yeah, I don't think I
immediately thought of morebrokering.
It was real estate that I was mostinterested in and really that I
didn't want to pay someone else'srent.
or didn't want to pay someoneelse's mortgage.
Sorry.
I've been living on my own since I
was 15.
So I was paying rent a few years
longer than others and bought myfirst house when I was 19.
And by the time I was, I want tosay 20. 22 or 23, I already owned
(02:55):
multiple homes.
So it was a passion of mine and I
had always used a mortgage brokerand I was confused why other
people didn't.
And then a friend of mine, I was
actually working in a restaurantat the time and he came in and he
was becoming a mortgage broker.
I was going to schools for
acupuncture, of course, and thenthought, well, that would be a
perfect fit for me.
And here we are.
was of So in some ways, was itabout... your own needs and, you
(03:18):
know, your own learning adventureto help you buy, sell properties,
rent properties, figure all thatout?
Or was it right out of the gate?Like I'm going to like build this
huge mortgage business.
I definitely didn't want to build
a huge mortgage business.
It was more just I was passionate
about it and I was interested init.
(03:38):
I found it really interesting.
So I would spend a lot of time
just studying real estate.
Yeah, more than anything, I was
just curious about it.
I was exploring a curiosity for
myself and it was something Ibelieved in wholeheartedly.
But it was also unique to me atthat age that I was so invested in
real estate.
So friends would often come to me
for advice.
It's funny now looking back as I
remember telling them wronginformation.
I just heard.
(03:58):
And so I would actually.
end up studying the informationmyself for my own knowledge and
then other people would ask meadvice on it and then ended up
saying hey this is something thatI could really find interesting
and that I could get behind soyeah so when you think back to the
early days how did you get some ofthose so when you think back to
the early days how did you getsome of those first clients?
(04:18):
Cause it's, you know, one thing tolike go in and start figuring out
for yourself all the ways you'rewrong for sure.
But then actually to get people tocall you for their mortgage as
well, how'd you go about buildinga client book?
I was 24 and I had this curlyhair, was 24 and I had this curly
hair, my high heels walkingaround.
No one is taking me seriously,probably including myself.
And the thing that I did that Ithink was one of the most
important parts was that I treatedit like a business from day one.
I rented an office space and I wasthere a minimum eight to 10,
(04:39):
sometimes 12 hours a day doingeverything that I could.
And it was a job structure to me.
You are able to do it from home.
I mean, there were certainlywindows of time where I managed
kids and I did all of that.
But in those early years, it was
important to me that my prioritywas putting the energy out.
So I did things like every Sunday,I would also go around, I'd get a
(05:01):
whole bunch of coffees and I wouldgo to every open house and just
introduce myself to the realtor,give them a coffee in my business.
cards.
I emailed every single realtor in
my small community and asked themto go for coffee.
And funny enough, a few of themthat ended up saying yes, I was
shocked they would even agree totalk to me.
And we ended up developing greatrelationships.
And we are still referralpartners, you know, 15 years
later.
So I also spent most of that time,
(05:22):
if I wasn't looking for clients, Iwas working on becoming a broker.
who I would be proud to market andwho I would go to myself.
So I spent a lot of time justlearning, learning different
products.
I mean, we know that the mortgage
courses aren't always the mostinformative and they don't always
set you up for success.
So I would study all the
underwriting guides and I wasmeeting with every lender that I
(05:44):
could.
I was looking for unique
opportunities.
When I would meet with the
clients, I remember getting myfirst online lead and calling
another broker.
I got this lead from online.
Just FYI, it's probably not goinganywhere.
But I spent a lot of time justtrying to get as many people in
front of me as possible so that Icould just practice.
And I also was prepared that Iwasn't going to make any money for
(06:07):
the first six to 12 months.
I had saved up enough that I
didn't actually have to earn anyincome for a minimum of six to 12
months just for my own sake.
So when people would come to me, I
was really... choosing toexperience it as practice and as
gaining knowledge and experiencerather than gaining the income
that would come as a result offunding that mortgage.
(06:27):
I wonder how important that pointis because when people can sniff
the desperation, right?Like people are intuitive in the
way that we feel one another.
Oftentimes like that new mortgage
broker, like you could tell theyneed this deal so bad.
And then you talk to like theprofessional mortgage broker has
been doing it for years and yearsand years and has clients and
whatnot.
And there's like a sense of, I
don't need your individualmortgage, right?
(06:49):
Like I'm happy to help you, youknow, so much so that they'll say,
Hey, I only work between this hourand this hour.
And I'm going to answer my phoneon weekends or whatever that thing
is, or they set their ownboundaries.
And it's like, Well, hold on.
I build my whole business on the
fact that I answer my phone 24hours a day, seven days a week,
stuff like that.
And some people say like, hey, in
(07:10):
the beginning, that's fine.
But after so long, you don't need
to do that.
So it sounds like a lot of it was,
you know, A, you had patience.
B, you were actually genuinely
interested for yourself.
And C, you were... a student of
the game, like you were actuallyinvested, you would use that
client conversation, thatopportunity as a way to use the,
you know, maybe 60 hours you justspent studying over the last
couple of weeks when someone'slike, Hey, so what does it mean
(07:30):
when I, you know, when offsetrental income, you're like, ha ha,
I just read the whole book onoffsetting rental income.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would literally go to the taxsales.
would literally go to the taxsales.
If you don't pay your propertytaxes for three years, then your
house goes to tax sale.
And I would go there and sit there
and I was printing out all of the,all the lists and learning of
(07:51):
every single.
possible opportunity that could
exist in real estate land.
And that was for me personally
too.
That was a personal interest, you
know?And so when someone would start to
fall behind in their propertytaxes, I can explain to them
exactly what will happen becauseI've sat in those auction rooms
and been able to sort of gainexperience around that for sure.
So I would say if someone isstarting out that, that framework
of all those things were importantto me, but probably the biggest
one was treating it like abusiness, not like a hobby.
So you showed up every day.
(08:12):
you showed up every day.
You talked about having structure.
Yeah.
And I want to learn a little bitmore about that.
Like, what does that look like toyou?
Yeah.
Like, are you showing up at the
same time every morning, goinghome at the same time every day,
regardless of whether or not yourphone rings?
Like, what does the structure looklike in the beginning of a
mortgage business?So I would say it was exactly the
(08:33):
same time.
I would say it was exactly the
same time.
I would show up at the same time,
leave at the same time, have thosesame commitments to myself.
I had small commitments.
For example, it was important for
me to stay active.
So I would walk to a lunch with
someone at least once a day.
And I would do two handwritten
thank you cards and I would trackthese goals for myself.
So of course I had long -termgoals and objectives, but more
(08:54):
than anything, they were taskoriented.
So I would do two handwrittenthank you cards every day.
And still to this day, it's apractice that I tried to do.
I would do five face -to -facemeetings a week.
So that would be typically tryingto walk to and from someplace
where I was working.
I would do one event.
Now I'm starting to forget whatthese were.
It's been so long, but one event amonth, like one networking sort of
social event a month, and thenannually trying to do something
for my referral partners.
So some sort of a get together or
(09:16):
something like that.
So the handwritten thank you cards
alone were huge for me.
Every time someone would apply, it
would handwrite them a thank youcard with some scratch tickets as
well.
And so really starting to focus on
those small details.
And then it just amplified over
time.
And that's how I would gauge
success for myself.
a I love that your goals were very
action -based rather than outcome-based.
Because at no point yet have youtalked about sort of like the big
(09:39):
dream, but I do want to get there,which is to ask you, you know, did
you know, hey, I want to be, youknow, Christine, superstar,
mortgage broker extraordinaire.
I want to build a company.
Did you want to just build like anindividual book of business that
provided you the ultimate freedom?Like what was the original goal
and how was that?changed and evolved over all these
years that you've been doing it.
And what does the goal look like
(09:59):
today?The original goal was to be
mortgage broker, which wouldfacilitate being a mom.
It was to have the flexibility.
I was, you know, freshly getting
married, wanting to start afamily.
And so really, ultimately, Iwanted to have a career.
I've always had this drive andI've always had this passion.
And also, I really, really, reallywanted to focus on being a mom.
And I felt like it would give methe freedom.
Looking back now, I mean,obviously, I think a lot of people
(10:22):
get into mortgage brokeringthinking, oh, it's going to be
able to have all this extra time.
And it's not the case.
So I would say that was my primarydriver was to be able to have a
flexible opportunity that wouldallow me to be.
as present of a mom as possibleand also be able to be growing a
business at the same time.
And it definitely was for a while
(10:44):
until it wasn't until I was spreadso thin between both trying to be
the best mom that I could and alsotrying to be the best business
person and mortgage broker that Icould.
And I would say that illusion ofbalance where we can be jack of
all trades, master of none waswhere I was really losing myself.
And so I wasn't being the best momthat I could, and I wasn't being
(11:05):
the best mortgage broker that Icould.
Around 2017, 2018, when I startedto get a little bit more attention
in the industry, I realized thatit felt good and started to be in
magazines and people started toknow me at conferences or things
like this.
I was being asked to speak on
panels.
And so I leaned into that pretty
heavily.
And I had a few years of really
trying to find my footing of whatfelt best for me.
(11:25):
And I realized that it wassignificantly easier to become
busy and to preoccupy my mind withaccomplishments than it was to
really sit back and self-reflection and say, hey, what
does success look like for me?And how will these specific
actions lead me down that path?to what I'm looking for.
So where I'm at today is back.
My priority is 100 % my kids and
(11:47):
my business is very structured.
I work less now than ever.
Of course, you know, Cancerland.
I have an amazing team who help
run everything for me and theyfollow my process.
And I feel like they've reallygrown with me through all of our
different challenges andcelebrations.
I feel more successful in mybusiness now than I ever have
because I finally feel like I havethe freedom.
Do you feel like you had toachieve those things in order to
(12:09):
learn those lessons?Or do you feel like if you're, you
know, somebody out there listeningand sometimes I think about the
saying that like, you know,everyone says that money isn't
important.
The only people who say that are
the ones who actually have it.
Yeah.
When it comes to success in themortgage business, like did that
drive the Christine of younger?to go out and win all those
(12:32):
awards?Like, was that helpful to then be
able to say, okay, actually, Idon't want to spend all my time
accepting awards or doing thesethings or showing up to every
single conference that actuallydoesn't take care of my kids or
pay my bills, which are, you know,the top two for me as you later
came to identify.
What does someone need to go
(12:53):
through?Or can they just say, you know,
listen to you and say that Ishould probably do that?
you Well, I do think that learningthrough experience is probably one
of the most meaningful ways to doit.
I think as a human, we often canlook for that next best thing.
And so I will feel this way when Iaccomplish this.
And as an industry, we really puta lot of weight on mortgage
(13:16):
volume, which I've always feltreally confusing because that
isn't necessarily a directreflection to net income.
And for me, as you were saying,feeding my family is way more
important than feeding my ego.
Now, for has that always been the
case when I'm being true tomyself?
No. I mean, I always, it wasimportant to feed my family for
sure.
But when you can say, this is how
much volume I've done.
This is what awards I've received,
(13:37):
these accomplishments.
And we're disillusioned to think
that those accomplishments will bea conduit to a feeling.
then we just keep chasing them andthe goalpost just keeps moving.
So I think if people could gainsome perspective or borrow mine, I
would really offer a suggestion ofsitting back and understanding
what feeling they're looking for.
If it's the worthiness, if it's
the enoughness, how can you trulyidentify what you're chasing?
So that you can find a path that'sdirectly there instead of one that
(13:59):
can take you through a few lifelessons that might be less than
ideal.
I love what you said about the
feeling that they're looking for.
Oftentimes I talk about the
differentiation between happinessand contentness.
I will tell people like you sayyou want to be happy because
that's what we were taught ourwhole lives.
What you actually want to be iscontent.
People will usually look at mewith a bit of a confused face and
(14:23):
say like, why would I just want tobe content?
That sounds kind of boring.
Well, the reality is happiness is
a very short term fleetingfeeling, right?
That sense of, you know, uberexcitement of winning the award or
the short term thing.
By the time you rest your head on
the pillow at night, it's alreadyfading away.
And by the next day, you get backinto your routine and then it's
(14:45):
gone.
It's out of memory.
So if you can find a way toactually live your life with
contentness in the day to day andknow what the baseline of
happiness looks like and actuallycome to find to enjoy, you're
going to be in a better spot.
It does oftentimes.
(15:05):
unfortunately take people learningthat for themselves before they
get there.
I feel like one of the greatest,
you know, blessings of my life hasactually been able to, you know,
find that baseline.
But I don't know that I would have
found it if I didn't experienceall those other things first,
right?Like growing my own career and
getting successful in differentways and doing the things that I
(15:25):
wanted to do.
And now when people often ask me
what it would be most exciting,it's kind of like actually just
living the day -to -day that Ilive right now.
quite exciting for me.
It's fun.
I completely agree with you.
I completely agree with you.
And I think further to that, I'msuch a believer that emotions are
different than feelings and we canchoose them.
So we can choose to be happy ornot.
It's not necessarily a reaction.
(15:46):
It's not, I'm happy because this
happened.
It's I'm happy because I'm
choosing to be happy.
Our circumstances will be what
they are and we get to choose howwe experience them.
So you can choose to be happy forexercising every single day, or
you can choose to be loathing.
Oh, I've got to get out of bed and
do this again.
And I'm tired and all of these
things.
It is for me those micro moments
(16:06):
that once you've achieved or onceyou've had these big explosive
moments that feel or we have theillusion that they're going to
feel really satisfying, Icompletely agree with you that
contentment is often found inthose small moments of choosing
joy and the dichotomy.
choosing to say, I can be happy.
And also I'm going to be sad inorder to be happy.
I need to understand that therewill be moments of sadness as
well.
And then just choosing contentment
to be experiencing both of them.
(16:27):
Yeah.
And you talked about like thatcontentness with your business
now, and that it runs, whetheryou're there, not there, it could
be at a hospital, it could be at ahotel.
It doesn't matter.
What does that look like for you
today?Just help people understand what
your business is like now.
I would say giving up control.
It is.
giving up the ego that it's only
us and that we're the only oneswho can do it right.
(16:51):
So there's a part of it for surewhen you grow something and you
pour so much time and energy andmoney into this baby of a business
and then suddenly to have otherpeople come in and make mistakes
and understanding that it isinevitable that they will make
mistakes.
And for that same reason, it is
inevitable that they will addvalue.
If you allow them the autonomy tocontribute through their own
(17:11):
strengths, that you can actuallygrow this beautiful business.
If that's what feels right foryou.
There are other people who successto them may look like doing it on
their own and being able to workremotely or work from a coffee
shop or do what feels best forthem.
For me, freedom is success andflexibility and time.
So the fact that I do thestrategy, I know.
(17:32):
mortgage underwriting better thanI think most people in Canada
because of my weird obsession withmortgages.
The value that I contribute isn'ttaking JPEGs and putting them into
a package.
But what I can do is explain to my
underwriters, our lender partners,how can we make their lives
easier?This is what they see from their
perspective.
Let's do empathy mapping.
Let's create a process that worksfor them as well.
So I can contribute to my businessin a way that feels meaningful
(17:53):
because I have the time to dothat.
Instead of, You know, what's yourbest rate conversations?
I come up with scripts for themand I still have so much
involvement with it in a waythat's influential, but not
necessarily exhausting.
So you like the process of process
mapping and creating that wholesystem?
I do.
And I actually have spent a fair
amount of time coaching otherpeople with it as well.
(18:15):
And so I love processes formyself.
And I also love processes forother people because I love the
creativity of it.
I love the explorative nature of
it.
What I found most interesting
doing coaching for other peoplewas starting with the ideal
client.
The opportunities are so vast in
our industry to have processes, tohave businesses that are so unique
to us.
And I think one of the biggest
(18:36):
challenges that we have as anindustry is that brokers starting
out or even brokers who arelooking to grow are most often
looking for the plug and playsolution.
They don't necessarily want to dothe work to create a unique client
experience.
And then they also may not
understand.
What makes them unique?
(18:57):
And so, of course, the client'sgoing to go to anyone because
you're doing literally whateveryone else is doing.
So until you can create somethingthat's unique to you, of course,
the client is going to be callingyou and the other broker and
whoever else and the bank rep ifwhat you're offering is the exact
same thing.
So I love narrowing it down to
starting point being who's yourideal client, because I have this
(19:17):
whole series of exercises that Ilike to go through.
And most often it's not.
the person who the broker is
starting out thinking that theyserve best.
So I'll give an example of abroker who gave me permission to
share is he really thought heloved working with investor
clients.
He's a longtime investor himself.
So we really connected on that.
(19:39):
And that's where he has a whole
bunch of knowledge and experience.
And then after we went through all
of this exercise, he'd actuallycome previously from the
healthcare industry.
And we went through it and he was
like, I actually don't love.
Dealing with investor clients who
have all of these differentproperties, they're really
difficult to approve.
And really when I come down to it,
(19:59):
it's so much easier and fluid andfulfilling for me to deal with
people who are in healthcare.
And so it was complete opposite.
And okay, well then let's talkabout who's in healthcare.
Who is it within that bucket whoyou serve best?
And then really tailoring theprocess to that.
So I oftentimes would get peoplein our coaching that would say,
What about gifts?We would segment each of the part
of the process of gifting.
(20:19):
What does that look like?
Well, if your target audience is Bclients, so that's going to be
significantly different than first-time homebuyers.
when And the gift that you'regoing to send to the B client is
probably not going to be the samesplashy one that you could send to
a first time home buyer to theirwork saying, congratulations, you
bought your first home.
I'm so excited to have been
(20:40):
partnering with you.
It doesn't land as well when
you're like, congratulations, youpaid out that consumer proposal.
Now you can, you know, get backinto your Porsche and hopefully
everybody doesn't know that thisfacade that you're creating is not
true.
So every part of the process is so
unique.
And I love that creativity.
And I love when you can pull thatout of people and they have those
aha moments of this is how I servebest.
(21:02):
Cause this is what feels best forme.
Yeah.
That point of like, if you serve
everyone, you serve no one, um,always just sticks with me too.
I'm much the same way.
I've had many of those similar
conversations with people.
It's funny as everybody thinks
they want to go after the investorclient.
And I'm always the first to tellpeople.
That is actually just mepersonally.
I love that for so many of you.
(21:24):
That is the last client that I
want to call my client.
You know why?
Because they're calling you to runscenario analysis on the 33rd
property that they're looking atin the last month.
And they're like, they're notbuying anything for the next six
months.
And I'm like, I can't do this
every day until you decide to buya property.
You know who my client is?My client is the busy executive
that wants the least amount oftouch points possible, that wants
(21:47):
the smoothest process possible,that actually... won't fight me
over the five basis points on ratein the end.
And like, they're just happy withthe fact that they've got this
done with the least amount ofenergy that they can possibly
muster up to get it done so thatthey can get back to living their
busy lives.
Like that is my client.
Times a thousand.
I always tell people that.
I'm like, you know who my clientis?
(22:08):
And I will literally, I willdescribe the individual.
I will describe the process.
I will describe the very specific
ways in which I go about doingtheir mortgage.
And I don't originate anymore, butI did for a long time.
I'm like, I'm your get shit doneguy.
What does that mean?I'm like, I am the guy who will
get shit done so that you don'thave to.
So that way when someone elsesends you a super sloppy word
(22:31):
document with the 19 individualline items of all the stuff that
they need.
Not in my process.
It's going to be super clean.
You have all your payroll online,
correct?Boom.
Okay.
You're going to two -click upload
to my portal.
You're going to do this.
You can do that.
And I will build everything around
this very specific client.
Yes.
And then that is exactly the typeof clients that I will go after.
And I will feel...
(22:52):
Zero regret over the fact that
some other client might come alongmy way and say, yeah, I want to,
you know, mortgage.
And I might just be honest
oftentimes and say, I'm sorry, Idon't do that, but you should
totally talk to this person who Iknow.
Like, I'm okay with that.
I'm going to go find three more of
my clients instead of doing this.
the 33rd property that they're
looking at in the last month.
to Like that is describe the
(23:14):
process.
I will like, I'm your get shit
done guy.
What that Like, my clients instead
of doing this.
Yes.
We've even started like colorcoding.
clients who we like working withthe most as they're coming in what
i love the most about what yousaid is the revelation that most
often happens when i'm workingwith people through their
processes i would suggest thatthat person you've described is
quite similar to you it's quitesimilar to me no it is it is me in
the mirror me no it is it is me inthe mirror Because what would I
(23:36):
want?Yes, Yes, exactly.
And that's usually after we reallypick apart what people are looking
for.
It's usually ourselves.
So we did this exercise within ourteam and it was like young moms
who, you know, they don't havetime to be putting together all
these things so we can help themdo all these things in a certain
way.
And we all laughed afterwards.
We were like, wow, these qualitiesthat we're looking for.
Our clients are like ourselves,but it was amazing because then I
(23:57):
said, okay, well, if you've got anewer broker and they're calling
you because they're whateverworking, answering their phone,
they're calling you at eight 30 atnight.
We look at what, who our audioclient is.
What are you doing?What's our client doing?
They're doing bedtime with theirkids.
And ourselves.
because You know what they don't
want is their mortgage brokercalling them saying, hey, here's
the update for the day, which it'san OK touch point, but it doesn't
(24:18):
land as well as if they get it at,say, 430.
They're just about to come homefrom work.
They can look at it.
OK, great.
It's just a part of their tasklist.
Right.
It doesn't land as well if it's
eight o 'clock in the morning andwe know they're trying to get
their kids off to school.
So then how can we accommodate
them in a way that we know isgoing to feel best for them?
Because we know that we are that.
You know, and so that's what I
love about your point is mostoften it comes down to it's either
us now or it's a younger versionof ourselves that nobody helped
(24:39):
that we wish we could go back intime and say, land as well I love
it's a younger version ofourselves that nobody helped that
we wish we could go back in timeand say, I want to support that
first time home buyer because Iwas that person and I didn't have
me.
So I want to be me to that younger
version of myself.
That is the best I've ever heard
anybody put it into really justboil down to a level of
(25:00):
simplicity.
So other than that, what would you
say makes your business?maybe it's even helpful to go
through a little bit of yourjourney so that folks understand.
I mean, you start out as amortgage agent, you go on, you
build a mortgage brokerage.
Now you guys run a very booty
brokerage, something that I know,but maybe the average individual
doesn't know about you, that maybethe average individual doesn't
know about you, but maybe justhelp us understand that journey to
(25:22):
what got you to the unique versionof you that exists today.
So I was sort of putting along inmy little business, in my little
community and gaining moretraction, sort of going through
these depression years, trying toredefine what success looked like
for me.
And an opportunity fell in my lap
to be a director for a largecompany at 107 brokers at the
time.
And it was a well -run,
established company.
It was sort of what you would look
to achieve.
if you started your own brokerage
(25:43):
and developed all of these systemsand culture and all these things.
So I learned a lot of lessonsduring that window of time.
So I sort of jumped from being thesmaller small town broker to
suddenly being a director of alarge company and having a lot of
travel, leaving my family morethan I would choose to now and
experiencing the other pendulumswing.
From having that big of a companyto run, I realized that it just
wasn't in alignment with what feltlike success to me.
And so the other directors and Iended up stepping down and
(26:04):
starting our own little boutiquebrokerage where our focus is
primarily on relationships,relationships with our brokers,
relationships with our lenderpartners.
And we realized that the qualityof our business and the quality of
our lives was considerably moreimportant than the cumulative
volume.
that we could pull together and
fund.
And we believe in things like
earning rights to submit to alender.
We believe in maintaining fundingratios and being as good of
partners as we possibly can be asa brokerage.
What makes our brokerage unique,if we're called the collective
mortgage group, and we are veryintentionally small.
Our average agent will do around40 million and minimum 10 years
(26:25):
experience.
And we require minimum 80 %
funding ratio across all lenders.
And most importantly, we will not
allow anyone to join our companyif every single person in the
group hasn't agreed to it.
There are only 11 of us, but...
Yeah, Yeah, I was going to say,that's going to be a small number,
right?Yes, Yes, but we still, as the 11
of us, we fund more than a lot ofthe big brokerages do, just as a
function of who we allow in andhow we cooperate together.
(26:46):
And it allows us to do things likethis past summer, we took our
whole brokerage to LA and we wentto the Lewis House Summit of
Greatness.
We saw Joe Dispenza and David
Goggins and we all stayed inAirbnb together.
And we are really, really like awork family.
We meet on a regular basis.
learn at a higher level.
We've experimented with havingsome newer brokers sort of be
(27:09):
underneath and sort of these tierstructures, but it's the way that
it works best for us is to reallymaintain the highest level of
professional standards with onlythe brokers who are, I mean, our
longest running broker is I wantto say 28 years or something.
Like I'm one of the newest at 15years and most of our brokers are
20, 25 years experience.
So. Everyone works together, cares
(27:29):
for each other, has a level ofunderstanding that the group chats
aren't who's got the best five-year fixed rate right now.
You know, it's, hey, I've got asolution.
Let's learn about Section 85rollovers.
Let's learn about how you canleverage your life insurance
policy inside a company.
There are so many creative
solutions that we can helpfacilitate that it would just be
(27:50):
lost on people who are a littlebit newer.
solution.
can help So yeah, what makes their
brokerage unique?And also - Or I've got this
investor client and I don't dealwith investor clients, makes their
brokerage unique?And also - Or I've got this
investor client and I don't dealwith investor clients, so someone
(28:11):
else.
Totally.
Totally.
We do collaborate.
So one person saying, hey, I don'tdo as many transfers.
What does the solution look likefor this?
And other people fill in.
And yeah, most of our brokers,
because they are higher volume,also have assistants.
So then the assistants also comealong and do things and they all
(28:33):
get to know each other and chat.
And yeah, fill it's been a really,
really fulfilling experience.
And I wouldn't do it any other
way.
I really do love the depth of our
company instead of focusing on thebreadth.
So my business partner, Chad, andI, we are the top two funders of
the company.
I fund the most units.
He funds the most volume.
(28:54):
And the whole company operates
without anyone else.
And that's one of the most
important parts, I think, as well.
Just sort of going back to having
saved up my first six months ofall my expenses when I started my
business is.
It's important to us that we don't
need brokers to fund volume inorder for us to achieve what we're
looking for as success within ourcompany.
We really could just fund ourminimums.
We built the whole company thatway.
(29:14):
So for us, we're not a great fitfor new brokers because we don't
have the training.
We don't have the level of hand
-holding, I guess, that a lot ofothers may need.
I say we don't do trips.
We do when we are able to, but
it's not something that wepromote.
What we've always said is we willjust give you more money to be
(29:35):
able to go.
on holidays with your own family
and right.
Cause you've got parents and
grandparents and all the likes inthere too.
I'm going to use a word thatsometimes throws people the wrong
way, but it sounds like it's alsocultish in a way.
Like you guys, these are veryprotective and people take that
the wrong way, but you really haveidentified the people that are
like you.
(29:56):
and built and protected that and
actually put in some very strictparameters, it sounds like, in
order to make sure that itmaintains that exact cult -like
feel in the most positive way,right?
So, Cause you've you know, youseem in this conversation and from
all previous conversations thatI've had with you, which I always
am just enthralled with, to bereally well thought out about
culture surrounding you.
I'm curious, is the culture in
your collective mortgage likesomething that has evolved over
time?Or is it something that you
scribed to right from thebeginning?
I'm curious how that has come tobe, because it sounds like you
(30:19):
guys are very clearly well thoughtout on exactly who you are and
why.
Yeah, I think it's always evolving
as all things are.
In the very beginning, a friend of
mine who's actually not even inour company had said to me, I
can't remember the exact quote,but it was essentially a
contamination.
So, you know, think about your
group as just a really clear.
Another great C word, great C
word, by the way.
(30:39):
way.
Yeah.
I actually, funny enough, use a
lot of...
Call contamination.
Call contamination.
Where are we going?
In conversation with a friend theother day, I was giving him some
mortgage conversation andbasically acknowledged that I use
a lot of C words, but not the badones.
So we were talking about it beingsimilar to a bucket of water.
And the more intentionally you canmaintain the clarity in that
bucket of water, then the easierit is, as opposed to one
(31:01):
contaminant.
It's so challenging to get that
out, right?So the reason that we've been so
intentional about not allowingpeople to join has just been that
for me, it's easier to set aboundary than to go back and do
damage control for therelationships that our brokers
have all joined us with theunderstanding that it's not going
to be this eroded value.
We don't want to be everything to
(31:22):
everyone.
We have a very specific value
proposition.
And if people don't appreciate it
or don't value it, then Ourcontracts are open.
You can come if you want.
Don't come if you don't want.
Well, I shouldn't say come if youwant, but you know, once we've
accepted you in.
So I think it's been evolving over
time with my cancer journey, forsure.
That's changed things.
Others have had to step up in a
way that I didn't necessarilythink I would have needed.
(31:43):
And it's been beautiful.
I've realized this sense of
community also comes fromcontribution.
A lot more C words coming in here.
But I think it's interesting
thinking of culture becauseoftentimes we think that it's just
top down.
I think it's interesting thinking
of culture because oftentimes wethink that it's just top down.
And I've realized that when you'rejust witnessing or when culture is
an entertainment for you andyou're not actively participating
in it, it doesn't stick in thesame way as if you can feel as
(32:09):
though you're contributing to theculture and that you're in this
community connection, then.
it seems to really amplify or
really deepen the relationshipwithin our group or within
whatever community you're lookingto do.
Culture, community, connection.
I'm following and I could not
agree more.
It's really well said.
So maybe to bring us home on this,that's quite a journey.
(32:30):
You know, all that just on themortgage brokerage career, as
mentioned.
And for the last handful of years,
we're also battling throughcancer.
But you sound like you've reallybuilt the business that you want
to build.
And you're now living the life
that you want to live, despitesome of the challenges that you're
facing right now.
What do you want your impact to be
on this business, this world?And how do you think about legacy?
Legacy is a really interestingconcept when you're facing stage
(32:52):
four cancer.
And I would say that...
If I could lend my gift ofperspective to anyone, that would
feel impactful.
Even just for a micro moment, if
they could say, if I could treateveryone as if they had something
going on for them, I had theprivilege of my cancer being on
display.
I spent the better part of a year
with no hair or eyelashes,eyebrows.
And although it was reallyuncomfortable to look at that
(33:14):
reflection, It was equally asbeautiful to bask in the
generosity of strangers who wouldopen doors for you, who were
exceptionally kind for you.
And I so often thought, I'm more
sick now than I was then.
The type of cancer that I have now
is actually... considered to bemore challenging than when I was
in chemo.
(33:34):
And obviously those same
interactions just don't exist.
But if I could capture those
moments and if we could all treateach other with that same level of
tenderness and kindness andcompassion, how different our
world could be.
So if I could lend that gift of
perspective to others, if I couldshare with others the experience
of facing death, of saying goalsetting is amazing.
All of these accomplishments soundabsolutely like they will feel
good for you when you achievethem, if that's the feeling that
(33:57):
you're looking to achieve.
But if you could understand that
tomorrow truly is a gift, you'relooking if you could understand
that tomorrow truly is a gift, notevery single one of us in the
mortgage industry is going to wakeup tomorrow.
And if you can choose to wake upand choose happiness and choose
compassion and choose to cultivatethe life that feels good for you,
(34:20):
not the life that you think.
is going to comparatively make you
feel good.
That makes sense.
It makes so much sense.
And a lot of what you're saying
there is like, we will look at theindividual who we know is
struggling.
We will be so compassionate
towards them, but we don't offerourselves the same sort of
compassion and kindness, right?Because we're all going through
something in our own way.
And I do think that's why.
(34:41):
Sometimes, you know, you look atthe person with no hair and
eyebrows, like you mentioned, andwe see people that we love in our
lives who have been throughsomething like that.
Because we're that we love in ourlives who have been through
something like that.
And we see a part of ourselves.
(35:02):
But in so doing, we often forgetto give ourselves a bit of grace
as well.
Totally, totally.
And I think in the absence ofgrace, sometimes we can fall prey
to finding criticism.
And so then we criticize
ourselves.
We're harder on ourselves than
anyone else is.
And then what happens as a result
of that?We project those emotions onto
other people.
And then we create this vortex of
negativity because we're showingup in an energy that's critical,
(35:25):
that's judgmental.
And if we could just choose that
grace and compassion for ourselvesfirst.
and say, wow, that was a reallyhard day.
Shouldn't have probably said that.
I will apologize.
I'll take ownership.
I'll be accountable for it.
And then I'll just give myself atremendous amount of grace.
(35:49):
The next time you start to feeljudgment or criticism towards
someone else, it's so much easierto extend those same compassionate
feelings towards someone else whenyou practice feeling them for
yourself.
Yeah.
I love the way you're thinkingabout compassion and gratitude
that way.
So I felt that from you since.
You know, the time that we firstmet, I know that our team loves
(36:10):
working with you and your team.
So thank you for the partnership.
Thank you for everything that youdo for this industry.
And as a partner, Christine.
Thanks.
Thanks so much for having me.
And we love working with you guys
as well.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the Lending Thoughts
(00:02):
podcast sponsored by Rocket Pro.
Today, I'll be talking to
Christine Buhman, a friend of mineand one of the co -founders of the
Collective Mortgage Group.
Christine talks about compassion
over criticism of thyself.
We talk about process and design
mapping so that you can build themortgage business that you want.
And we talk about avoidinghappiness.
and instead chasing contentment sothat you can build and design the
(00:26):
life and the mortgage businessthat you've always desired.
Listen in.
Christine, thank you so much for
joining me today.
Thanks so much for having me.
Absolutely.
So for those who don't know you,
can you please tell your lifestory in 60 seconds or less?
(00:46):
That's a great question.
And I should have been more
prepared for it.
I would say I was born in Victoria
and then spent most of my life ina small town.
I had a complicated childhood andfell quickly in love with real
estate and mortgages and became abroker when I was 24.
And that was a less than warmwelcome into an old boys club.
(01:08):
So lots of experiences, lots ofwisdom earned those early years in
brokering.
And then started my own brokerage
in 2020.
And throughout that window of
time, had babies and moved houses.
I'm a longtime property investor
myself as well.
So have done a lot of different
(01:29):
investment scenarios.
Other than that, I would say
mommy, mortgage broker, student oflife, and as of late, cancer
thriver.
That's amazing.
Yeah, you have an incrediblejourney.
I know a lot of people arefollowing along on your journey as
well and rooting you on in thatregard.
So I'm curious because I'm alwayslooking to learn how people land
(01:50):
in this mortgage business.
You said that you kind of like
fell in love with real estate andmortgage from like a very young
age.
What do you think caused that?
What led to that?That's a good question.
My dad, when I was really young,would pay me the value of a book
for self -help books.
And so where other people were
reading like Goosebumps, I wasreading How to Win Friends and
Influence People.
Probably from that foundation, I
wanted to be self -employed.
(02:11):
I wanted the freedom and the
ability to make as much money as Iwanted to be able to cultivate a
life that was in alignment withwhat felt great for me.
I have a very flexiblepersonality.
So and I'm also fiercelyindependent.
So working for myself felt like itwas going to be the best solution
(02:32):
for me.
And so, yeah, I don't think I
immediately thought of morebrokering.
It was real estate that I was mostinterested in and really that I
didn't want to pay someone else'srent.
or didn't want to pay someoneelse's mortgage.
Sorry.
I've been living on my own since I
was 15.
So I was paying rent a few years
longer than others and bought myfirst house when I was 19.
And by the time I was, I want tosay 20. 22 or 23, I already owned
(02:55):
multiple homes.
So it was a passion of mine and I
had always used a mortgage brokerand I was confused why other
people didn't.
And then a friend of mine, I was
actually working in a restaurantat the time and he came in and he
was becoming a mortgage broker.
I was going to schools for
acupuncture, of course, and thenthought, well, that would be a
perfect fit for me.
And here we are.
was of So in some ways, was itabout... your own needs and, you
(03:18):
know, your own learning adventureto help you buy, sell properties,
rent properties, figure all thatout?
Or was it right out of the gate?Like I'm going to like build this
huge mortgage business.
I definitely didn't want to build
a huge mortgage business.
It was more just I was passionate
about it and I was interested init.
(03:38):
I found it really interesting.
So I would spend a lot of time
just studying real estate.
Yeah, more than anything, I was
just curious about it.
I was exploring a curiosity for
myself and it was something Ibelieved in wholeheartedly.
But it was also unique to me atthat age that I was so invested in
real estate.
So friends would often come to me
for advice.
It's funny now looking back as I
remember telling them wronginformation.
I just heard.
(03:58):
And so I would actually.
end up studying the informationmyself for my own knowledge and
then other people would ask meadvice on it and then ended up
saying hey this is something thatI could really find interesting
and that I could get behind soyeah so when you think back to the
early days how did you get some ofthose so when you think back to
the early days how did you getsome of those first clients?
(04:18):
Cause it's, you know, one thing tolike go in and start figuring out
for yourself all the ways you'rewrong for sure.
But then actually to get people tocall you for their mortgage as
well, how'd you go about buildinga client book?
I was 24 and I had this curlyhair, was 24 and I had this curly
hair, my high heels walkingaround.
No one is taking me seriously,probably including myself.
And the thing that I did that Ithink was one of the most
important parts was that I treatedit like a business from day one.
I rented an office space and I wasthere a minimum eight to 10,
(04:39):
sometimes 12 hours a day doingeverything that I could.
And it was a job structure to me.
You are able to do it from home.
I mean, there were certainlywindows of time where I managed
kids and I did all of that.
But in those early years, it was
important to me that my prioritywas putting the energy out.
So I did things like every Sunday,I would also go around, I'd get a
(05:01):
whole bunch of coffees and I wouldgo to every open house and just
introduce myself to the realtor,give them a coffee in my business.
cards.
I emailed every single realtor in
my small community and asked themto go for coffee.
And funny enough, a few of themthat ended up saying yes, I was
shocked they would even agree totalk to me.
And we ended up developing greatrelationships.
And we are still referralpartners, you know, 15 years
later.
So I also spent most of that time,
(05:22):
if I wasn't looking for clients, Iwas working on becoming a broker.
who I would be proud to market andwho I would go to myself.
So I spent a lot of time justlearning, learning different
products.
I mean, we know that the mortgage
courses aren't always the mostinformative and they don't always
set you up for success.
So I would study all the
underwriting guides and I wasmeeting with every lender that I
(05:44):
could.
I was looking for unique
opportunities.
When I would meet with the
clients, I remember getting myfirst online lead and calling
another broker.
I got this lead from online.
Just FYI, it's probably not goinganywhere.
But I spent a lot of time justtrying to get as many people in
front of me as possible so that Icould just practice.
And I also was prepared that Iwasn't going to make any money for
(06:07):
the first six to 12 months.
I had saved up enough that I
didn't actually have to earn anyincome for a minimum of six to 12
months just for my own sake.
So when people would come to me, I
was really... choosing toexperience it as practice and as
gaining knowledge and experiencerather than gaining the income
that would come as a result offunding that mortgage.
(06:27):
I wonder how important that pointis because when people can sniff
the desperation, right?Like people are intuitive in the
way that we feel one another.
Oftentimes like that new mortgage
broker, like you could tell theyneed this deal so bad.
And then you talk to like theprofessional mortgage broker has
been doing it for years and yearsand years and has clients and
whatnot.
And there's like a sense of, I
don't need your individualmortgage, right?
(06:49):
Like I'm happy to help you, youknow, so much so that they'll say,
Hey, I only work between this hourand this hour.
And I'm going to answer my phoneon weekends or whatever that thing
is, or they set their ownboundaries.
And it's like, Well, hold on.
I build my whole business on the
fact that I answer my phone 24hours a day, seven days a week,
stuff like that.
And some people say like, hey, in
(07:10):
the beginning, that's fine.
But after so long, you don't need
to do that.
So it sounds like a lot of it was,
you know, A, you had patience.
B, you were actually genuinely
interested for yourself.
And C, you were... a student of
the game, like you were actuallyinvested, you would use that
client conversation, thatopportunity as a way to use the,
you know, maybe 60 hours you justspent studying over the last
couple of weeks when someone'slike, Hey, so what does it mean
(07:30):
when I, you know, when offsetrental income, you're like, ha ha,
I just read the whole book onoffsetting rental income.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would literally go to the taxsales.
would literally go to the taxsales.
If you don't pay your propertytaxes for three years, then your
house goes to tax sale.
And I would go there and sit there
and I was printing out all of the,all the lists and learning of
(07:51):
every single.
possible opportunity that could
exist in real estate land.
And that was for me personally
too.
That was a personal interest, you
know?And so when someone would start to
fall behind in their propertytaxes, I can explain to them
exactly what will happen becauseI've sat in those auction rooms
and been able to sort of gainexperience around that for sure.
So I would say if someone isstarting out that, that framework
of all those things were importantto me, but probably the biggest
one was treating it like abusiness, not like a hobby.
So you showed up every day.
(08:12):
you showed up every day.
You talked about having structure.
Yeah.
And I want to learn a little bitmore about that.
Like, what does that look like toyou?
Yeah.
Like, are you showing up at the
same time every morning, goinghome at the same time every day,
regardless of whether or not yourphone rings?
Like, what does the structure looklike in the beginning of a
mortgage business?So I would say it was exactly the
(08:33):
same time.
I would say it was exactly the
same time.
I would show up at the same time,
leave at the same time, have thosesame commitments to myself.
I had small commitments.
For example, it was important for
me to stay active.
So I would walk to a lunch with
someone at least once a day.
And I would do two handwritten
thank you cards and I would trackthese goals for myself.
So of course I had long -termgoals and objectives, but more
(08:54):
than anything, they were taskoriented.
So I would do two handwrittenthank you cards every day.
And still to this day, it's apractice that I tried to do.
I would do five face -to -facemeetings a week.
So that would be typically tryingto walk to and from someplace
where I was working.
I would do one event.
Now I'm starting to forget whatthese were.
It's been so long, but one event amonth, like one networking sort of
social event a month, and thenannually trying to do something
for my referral partners.
So some sort of a get together or
(09:16):
something like that.
So the handwritten thank you cards
alone were huge for me.
Every time someone would apply, it
would handwrite them a thank youcard with some scratch tickets as
well.
And so really starting to focus on
those small details.
And then it just amplified over
time.
And that's how I would gauge
success for myself.
a I love that your goals were very
action -based rather than outcome-based.
Because at no point yet have youtalked about sort of like the big
(09:39):
dream, but I do want to get there,which is to ask you, you know, did
you know, hey, I want to be, youknow, Christine, superstar,
mortgage broker extraordinaire.
I want to build a company.
Did you want to just build like anindividual book of business that
provided you the ultimate freedom?Like what was the original goal
and how was that?changed and evolved over all these
years that you've been doing it.
And what does the goal look like
(09:59):
today?The original goal was to be
mortgage broker, which wouldfacilitate being a mom.
It was to have the flexibility.
I was, you know, freshly getting
married, wanting to start afamily.
And so really, ultimately, Iwanted to have a career.
I've always had this drive andI've always had this passion.
And also, I really, really, reallywanted to focus on being a mom.
And I felt like it would give methe freedom.
Looking back now, I mean,obviously, I think a lot of people
(10:22):
get into mortgage brokeringthinking, oh, it's going to be
able to have all this extra time.
And it's not the case.
So I would say that was my primarydriver was to be able to have a
flexible opportunity that wouldallow me to be.
as present of a mom as possibleand also be able to be growing a
business at the same time.
And it definitely was for a while
(10:44):
until it wasn't until I was spreadso thin between both trying to be
the best mom that I could and alsotrying to be the best business
person and mortgage broker that Icould.
And I would say that illusion ofbalance where we can be jack of
all trades, master of none waswhere I was really losing myself.
And so I wasn't being the best momthat I could, and I wasn't being
(11:05):
the best mortgage broker that Icould.
Around 2017, 2018, when I startedto get a little bit more attention
in the industry, I realized thatit felt good and started to be in
magazines and people started toknow me at conferences or things
like this.
I was being asked to speak on
panels.
And so I leaned into that pretty
heavily.
And I had a few years of really
trying to find my footing of whatfelt best for me.
(11:25):
And I realized that it wassignificantly easier to become
busy and to preoccupy my mind withaccomplishments than it was to
really sit back and self-reflection and say, hey, what
does success look like for me?And how will these specific
actions lead me down that path?to what I'm looking for.
So where I'm at today is back.
My priority is 100 % my kids and
(11:47):
my business is very structured.
I work less now than ever.
Of course, you know, Cancerland.
I have an amazing team who help
run everything for me and theyfollow my process.
And I feel like they've reallygrown with me through all of our
different challenges andcelebrations.
I feel more successful in mybusiness now than I ever have
because I finally feel like I havethe freedom.
Do you feel like you had toachieve those things in order to
(12:09):
learn those lessons?Or do you feel like if you're, you
know, somebody out there listeningand sometimes I think about the
saying that like, you know,everyone says that money isn't
important.
The only people who say that are
the ones who actually have it.
Yeah.
When it comes to success in themortgage business, like did that
drive the Christine of younger?to go out and win all those
(12:32):
awards?Like, was that helpful to then be
able to say, okay, actually, Idon't want to spend all my time
accepting awards or doing thesethings or showing up to every
single conference that actuallydoesn't take care of my kids or
pay my bills, which are, you know,the top two for me as you later
came to identify.
What does someone need to go
(12:53):
through?Or can they just say, you know,
listen to you and say that Ishould probably do that?
you Well, I do think that learningthrough experience is probably one
of the most meaningful ways to doit.
I think as a human, we often canlook for that next best thing.
And so I will feel this way when Iaccomplish this.
And as an industry, we really puta lot of weight on mortgage
(13:16):
volume, which I've always feltreally confusing because that
isn't necessarily a directreflection to net income.
And for me, as you were saying,feeding my family is way more
important than feeding my ego.
Now, for has that always been the
case when I'm being true tomyself?
No. I mean, I always, it wasimportant to feed my family for
sure.
But when you can say, this is how
much volume I've done.
This is what awards I've received,
(13:37):
these accomplishments.
And we're disillusioned to think
that those accomplishments will bea conduit to a feeling.
then we just keep chasing them andthe goalpost just keeps moving.
So I think if people could gainsome perspective or borrow mine, I
would really offer a suggestion ofsitting back and understanding
what feeling they're looking for.
If it's the worthiness, if it's
the enoughness, how can you trulyidentify what you're chasing?
So that you can find a path that'sdirectly there instead of one that
(13:59):
can take you through a few lifelessons that might be less than
ideal.
I love what you said about the
feeling that they're looking for.
Oftentimes I talk about the
differentiation between happinessand contentness.
I will tell people like you sayyou want to be happy because
that's what we were taught ourwhole lives.
What you actually want to be iscontent.
People will usually look at mewith a bit of a confused face and
(14:23):
say like, why would I just want tobe content?
That sounds kind of boring.
Well, the reality is happiness is
a very short term fleetingfeeling, right?
That sense of, you know, uberexcitement of winning the award or
the short term thing.
By the time you rest your head on
the pillow at night, it's alreadyfading away.
And by the next day, you get backinto your routine and then it's
(14:45):
gone.
It's out of memory.
So if you can find a way toactually live your life with
contentness in the day to day andknow what the baseline of
happiness looks like and actuallycome to find to enjoy, you're
going to be in a better spot.
It does oftentimes.
(15:05):
unfortunately take people learningthat for themselves before they
get there.
I feel like one of the greatest,
you know, blessings of my life hasactually been able to, you know,
find that baseline.
But I don't know that I would have
found it if I didn't experienceall those other things first,
right?Like growing my own career and
getting successful in differentways and doing the things that I
(15:25):
wanted to do.
And now when people often ask me
what it would be most exciting,it's kind of like actually just
living the day -to -day that Ilive right now.
quite exciting for me.
It's fun.
I completely agree with you.
I completely agree with you.
And I think further to that, I'msuch a believer that emotions are
different than feelings and we canchoose them.
So we can choose to be happy ornot.
It's not necessarily a reaction.
(15:46):
It's not, I'm happy because this
happened.
It's I'm happy because I'm
choosing to be happy.
Our circumstances will be what
they are and we get to choose howwe experience them.
So you can choose to be happy forexercising every single day, or
you can choose to be loathing.
Oh, I've got to get out of bed and
do this again.
And I'm tired and all of these
things.
It is for me those micro moments
(16:06):
that once you've achieved or onceyou've had these big explosive
moments that feel or we have theillusion that they're going to
feel really satisfying, Icompletely agree with you that
contentment is often found inthose small moments of choosing
joy and the dichotomy.
choosing to say, I can be happy.
And also I'm going to be sad inorder to be happy.
I need to understand that therewill be moments of sadness as
well.
And then just choosing contentment
to be experiencing both of them.
(16:27):
Yeah.
And you talked about like thatcontentness with your business
now, and that it runs, whetheryou're there, not there, it could
be at a hospital, it could be at ahotel.
It doesn't matter.
What does that look like for you
today?Just help people understand what
your business is like now.
I would say giving up control.
It is.
giving up the ego that it's only
us and that we're the only oneswho can do it right.
(16:51):
So there's a part of it for surewhen you grow something and you
pour so much time and energy andmoney into this baby of a business
and then suddenly to have otherpeople come in and make mistakes
and understanding that it isinevitable that they will make
mistakes.
And for that same reason, it is
inevitable that they will addvalue.
If you allow them the autonomy tocontribute through their own
(17:11):
strengths, that you can actuallygrow this beautiful business.
If that's what feels right foryou.
There are other people who successto them may look like doing it on
their own and being able to workremotely or work from a coffee
shop or do what feels best forthem.
For me, freedom is success andflexibility and time.
So the fact that I do thestrategy, I know.
(17:32):
mortgage underwriting better thanI think most people in Canada
because of my weird obsession withmortgages.
The value that I contribute isn'ttaking JPEGs and putting them into
a package.
But what I can do is explain to my
underwriters, our lender partners,how can we make their lives
easier?This is what they see from their
perspective.
Let's do empathy mapping.
Let's create a process that worksfor them as well.
So I can contribute to my businessin a way that feels meaningful
(17:53):
because I have the time to dothat.
Instead of, You know, what's yourbest rate conversations?
I come up with scripts for themand I still have so much
involvement with it in a waythat's influential, but not
necessarily exhausting.
So you like the process of process
mapping and creating that wholesystem?
I do.
And I actually have spent a fair
amount of time coaching otherpeople with it as well.
(18:15):
And so I love processes formyself.
And I also love processes forother people because I love the
creativity of it.
I love the explorative nature of
it.
What I found most interesting
doing coaching for other peoplewas starting with the ideal
client.
The opportunities are so vast in
our industry to have processes, tohave businesses that are so unique
to us.
And I think one of the biggest
(18:36):
challenges that we have as anindustry is that brokers starting
out or even brokers who arelooking to grow are most often
looking for the plug and playsolution.
They don't necessarily want to dothe work to create a unique client
experience.
And then they also may not
understand.
What makes them unique?
(18:57):
And so, of course, the client'sgoing to go to anyone because
you're doing literally whateveryone else is doing.
So until you can create somethingthat's unique to you, of course,
the client is going to be callingyou and the other broker and
whoever else and the bank rep ifwhat you're offering is the exact
same thing.
So I love narrowing it down to
starting point being who's yourideal client, because I have this
(19:17):
whole series of exercises that Ilike to go through.
And most often it's not.
the person who the broker is
starting out thinking that theyserve best.
So I'll give an example of abroker who gave me permission to
share is he really thought heloved working with investor
clients.
He's a longtime investor himself.
So we really connected on that.
(19:39):
And that's where he has a whole
bunch of knowledge and experience.
And then after we went through all
of this exercise, he'd actuallycome previously from the
healthcare industry.
And we went through it and he was
like, I actually don't love.
Dealing with investor clients who
have all of these differentproperties, they're really
difficult to approve.
And really when I come down to it,
(19:59):
it's so much easier and fluid andfulfilling for me to deal with
people who are in healthcare.
And so it was complete opposite.
And okay, well then let's talkabout who's in healthcare.
Who is it within that bucket whoyou serve best?
And then really tailoring theprocess to that.
So I oftentimes would get peoplein our coaching that would say,
What about gifts?We would segment each of the part
of the process of gifting.
(20:19):
What does that look like?
Well, if your target audience is Bclients, so that's going to be
significantly different than first-time homebuyers.
when And the gift that you'regoing to send to the B client is
probably not going to be the samesplashy one that you could send to
a first time home buyer to theirwork saying, congratulations, you
bought your first home.
I'm so excited to have been
(20:40):
partnering with you.
It doesn't land as well when
you're like, congratulations, youpaid out that consumer proposal.
Now you can, you know, get backinto your Porsche and hopefully
everybody doesn't know that thisfacade that you're creating is not
true.
So every part of the process is so
unique.
And I love that creativity.
And I love when you can pull thatout of people and they have those
aha moments of this is how I servebest.
(21:02):
Cause this is what feels best forme.
Yeah.
That point of like, if you serve
everyone, you serve no one, um,always just sticks with me too.
I'm much the same way.
I've had many of those similar
conversations with people.
It's funny as everybody thinks
they want to go after the investorclient.
And I'm always the first to tellpeople.
That is actually just mepersonally.
I love that for so many of you.
(21:24):
That is the last client that I
want to call my client.
You know why?
Because they're calling you to runscenario analysis on the 33rd
property that they're looking atin the last month.
And they're like, they're notbuying anything for the next six
months.
And I'm like, I can't do this
every day until you decide to buya property.
You know who my client is?My client is the busy executive
that wants the least amount oftouch points possible, that wants
(21:47):
the smoothest process possible,that actually... won't fight me
over the five basis points on ratein the end.
And like, they're just happy withthe fact that they've got this
done with the least amount ofenergy that they can possibly
muster up to get it done so thatthey can get back to living their
busy lives.
Like that is my client.
Times a thousand.
I always tell people that.
I'm like, you know who my clientis?
(22:08):
And I will literally, I willdescribe the individual.
I will describe the process.
I will describe the very specific
ways in which I go about doingtheir mortgage.
And I don't originate anymore, butI did for a long time.
I'm like, I'm your get shit doneguy.
What does that mean?I'm like, I am the guy who will
get shit done so that you don'thave to.
So that way when someone elsesends you a super sloppy word
(22:31):
document with the 19 individualline items of all the stuff that
they need.
Not in my process.
It's going to be super clean.
You have all your payroll online,
correct?Boom.
Okay.
You're going to two -click upload
to my portal.
You're going to do this.
You can do that.
And I will build everything around
this very specific client.
Yes.
And then that is exactly the typeof clients that I will go after.
And I will feel...
(22:52):
Zero regret over the fact that
some other client might come alongmy way and say, yeah, I want to,
you know, mortgage.
And I might just be honest
oftentimes and say, I'm sorry, Idon't do that, but you should
totally talk to this person who Iknow.
Like, I'm okay with that.
I'm going to go find three more of
my clients instead of doing this.
the 33rd property that they're
looking at in the last month.
to Like that is describe the
(23:14):
process.
I will like, I'm your get shit
done guy.
What that Like, my clients instead
of doing this.
Yes.
We've even started like colorcoding.
clients who we like working withthe most as they're coming in what
i love the most about what yousaid is the revelation that most
often happens when i'm workingwith people through their
processes i would suggest thatthat person you've described is
quite similar to you it's quitesimilar to me no it is it is me in
the mirror me no it is it is me inthe mirror Because what would I
(23:36):
want?Yes, Yes, exactly.
And that's usually after we reallypick apart what people are looking
for.
It's usually ourselves.
So we did this exercise within ourteam and it was like young moms
who, you know, they don't havetime to be putting together all
these things so we can help themdo all these things in a certain
way.
And we all laughed afterwards.
We were like, wow, these qualitiesthat we're looking for.
Our clients are like ourselves,but it was amazing because then I
(23:57):
said, okay, well, if you've got anewer broker and they're calling
you because they're whateverworking, answering their phone,
they're calling you at eight 30 atnight.
We look at what, who our audioclient is.
What are you doing?What's our client doing?
They're doing bedtime with theirkids.
And ourselves.
because You know what they don't
want is their mortgage brokercalling them saying, hey, here's
the update for the day, which it'san OK touch point, but it doesn't
(24:18):
land as well as if they get it at,say, 430.
They're just about to come homefrom work.
They can look at it.
OK, great.
It's just a part of their tasklist.
Right.
It doesn't land as well if it's
eight o 'clock in the morning andwe know they're trying to get
their kids off to school.
So then how can we accommodate
them in a way that we know isgoing to feel best for them?
Because we know that we are that.
You know, and so that's what I
love about your point is mostoften it comes down to it's either
us now or it's a younger versionof ourselves that nobody helped
(24:39):
that we wish we could go back intime and say, land as well I love
it's a younger version ofourselves that nobody helped that
we wish we could go back in timeand say, I want to support that
first time home buyer because Iwas that person and I didn't have
me.
So I want to be me to that younger
version of myself.
That is the best I've ever heard
anybody put it into really justboil down to a level of
(25:00):
simplicity.
So other than that, what would you
say makes your business?maybe it's even helpful to go
through a little bit of yourjourney so that folks understand.
I mean, you start out as amortgage agent, you go on, you
build a mortgage brokerage.
Now you guys run a very booty
brokerage, something that I know,but maybe the average individual
doesn't know about you, that maybethe average individual doesn't
know about you, but maybe justhelp us understand that journey to
(25:22):
what got you to the unique versionof you that exists today.
So I was sort of putting along inmy little business, in my little
community and gaining moretraction, sort of going through
these depression years, trying toredefine what success looked like
for me.
And an opportunity fell in my lap
to be a director for a largecompany at 107 brokers at the
time.
And it was a well -run,
established company.
It was sort of what you would look
to achieve.
if you started your own brokerage
(25:43):
and developed all of these systemsand culture and all these things.
So I learned a lot of lessonsduring that window of time.
So I sort of jumped from being thesmaller small town broker to
suddenly being a director of alarge company and having a lot of
travel, leaving my family morethan I would choose to now and
experiencing the other pendulumswing.
From having that big of a companyto run, I realized that it just
wasn't in alignment with what feltlike success to me.
And so the other directors and Iended up stepping down and
(26:04):
starting our own little boutiquebrokerage where our focus is
primarily on relationships,relationships with our brokers,
relationships with our lenderpartners.
And we realized that the qualityof our business and the quality of
our lives was considerably moreimportant than the cumulative
volume.
that we could pull together and
fund.
And we believe in things like
earning rights to submit to alender.
We believe in maintaining fundingratios and being as good of
partners as we possibly can be asa brokerage.
What makes our brokerage unique,if we're called the collective
mortgage group, and we are veryintentionally small.
Our average agent will do around40 million and minimum 10 years
(26:25):
experience.
And we require minimum 80 %
funding ratio across all lenders.
And most importantly, we will not
allow anyone to join our companyif every single person in the
group hasn't agreed to it.
There are only 11 of us, but...
Yeah, Yeah, I was going to say,that's going to be a small number,
right?Yes, Yes, but we still, as the 11
of us, we fund more than a lot ofthe big brokerages do, just as a
function of who we allow in andhow we cooperate together.
(26:46):
And it allows us to do things likethis past summer, we took our
whole brokerage to LA and we wentto the Lewis House Summit of
Greatness.
We saw Joe Dispenza and David
Goggins and we all stayed inAirbnb together.
And we are really, really like awork family.
We meet on a regular basis.
learn at a higher level.
We've experimented with havingsome newer brokers sort of be
(27:09):
underneath and sort of these tierstructures, but it's the way that
it works best for us is to reallymaintain the highest level of
professional standards with onlythe brokers who are, I mean, our
longest running broker is I wantto say 28 years or something.
Like I'm one of the newest at 15years and most of our brokers are
20, 25 years experience.
So. Everyone works together, cares
(27:29):
for each other, has a level ofunderstanding that the group chats
aren't who's got the best five-year fixed rate right now.
You know, it's, hey, I've got asolution.
Let's learn about Section 85rollovers.
Let's learn about how you canleverage your life insurance
policy inside a company.
There are so many creative
solutions that we can helpfacilitate that it would just be
(27:50):
lost on people who are a littlebit newer.
solution.
can help So yeah, what makes their
brokerage unique?And also - Or I've got this
investor client and I don't dealwith investor clients, makes their
brokerage unique?And also - Or I've got this
investor client and I don't dealwith investor clients, so someone
(28:11):
else.
Totally.
Totally.
We do collaborate.
So one person saying, hey, I don'tdo as many transfers.
What does the solution look likefor this?
And other people fill in.
And yeah, most of our brokers,
because they are higher volume,also have assistants.
So then the assistants also comealong and do things and they all
(28:33):
get to know each other and chat.
And yeah, fill it's been a really,
really fulfilling experience.
And I wouldn't do it any other
way.
I really do love the depth of our
company instead of focusing on thebreadth.
So my business partner, Chad, andI, we are the top two funders of
the company.
I fund the most units.
He funds the most volume.
(28:54):
And the whole company operates
without anyone else.
And that's one of the most
important parts, I think, as well.
Just sort of going back to having
saved up my first six months ofall my expenses when I started my
business is.
It's important to us that we don't
need brokers to fund volume inorder for us to achieve what we're
looking for as success within ourcompany.
We really could just fund ourminimums.
We built the whole company thatway.
(29:14):
So for us, we're not a great fitfor new brokers because we don't
have the training.
We don't have the level of hand
-holding, I guess, that a lot ofothers may need.
I say we don't do trips.
We do when we are able to, but
it's not something that wepromote.
What we've always said is we willjust give you more money to be
(29:35):
able to go.
on holidays with your own family
and right.
Cause you've got parents and
grandparents and all the likes inthere too.
I'm going to use a word thatsometimes throws people the wrong
way, but it sounds like it's alsocultish in a way.
Like you guys, these are veryprotective and people take that
the wrong way, but you really haveidentified the people that are
like you.
(29:56):
and built and protected that and
actually put in some very strictparameters, it sounds like, in
order to make sure that itmaintains that exact cult -like
feel in the most positive way,right?
So, Cause you've you know, youseem in this conversation and from
all previous conversations thatI've had with you, which I always
am just enthralled with, to bereally well thought out about
culture surrounding you.
I'm curious, is the culture in
your collective mortgage likesomething that has evolved over
time?Or is it something that you
scribed to right from thebeginning?
I'm curious how that has come tobe, because it sounds like you
(30:19):
guys are very clearly well thoughtout on exactly who you are and
why.
Yeah, I think it's always evolving
as all things are.
In the very beginning, a friend of
mine who's actually not even inour company had said to me, I
can't remember the exact quote,but it was essentially a
contamination.
So, you know, think about your
group as just a really clear.
Another great C word, great C
word, by the way.
(30:39):
way.
Yeah.
I actually, funny enough, use a
lot of...
Call contamination.
Call contamination.
Where are we going?
In conversation with a friend theother day, I was giving him some
mortgage conversation andbasically acknowledged that I use
a lot of C words, but not the badones.
So we were talking about it beingsimilar to a bucket of water.
And the more intentionally you canmaintain the clarity in that
bucket of water, then the easierit is, as opposed to one
(31:01):
contaminant.
It's so challenging to get that
out, right?So the reason that we've been so
intentional about not allowingpeople to join has just been that
for me, it's easier to set aboundary than to go back and do
damage control for therelationships that our brokers
have all joined us with theunderstanding that it's not going
to be this eroded value.
We don't want to be everything to
(31:22):
everyone.
We have a very specific value
proposition.
And if people don't appreciate it
or don't value it, then Ourcontracts are open.
You can come if you want.
Don't come if you don't want.
Well, I shouldn't say come if youwant, but you know, once we've
accepted you in.
So I think it's been evolving over
time with my cancer journey, forsure.
That's changed things.
Others have had to step up in a
way that I didn't necessarilythink I would have needed.
(31:43):
And it's been beautiful.
I've realized this sense of
community also comes fromcontribution.
A lot more C words coming in here.
But I think it's interesting
thinking of culture becauseoftentimes we think that it's just
top down.
I think it's interesting thinking
of culture because oftentimes wethink that it's just top down.
And I've realized that when you'rejust witnessing or when culture is
an entertainment for you andyou're not actively participating
in it, it doesn't stick in thesame way as if you can feel as
(32:09):
though you're contributing to theculture and that you're in this
community connection, then.
it seems to really amplify or
really deepen the relationshipwithin our group or within
whatever community you're lookingto do.
Culture, community, connection.
I'm following and I could not
agree more.
It's really well said.
So maybe to bring us home on this,that's quite a journey.
(32:30):
You know, all that just on themortgage brokerage career, as
mentioned.
And for the last handful of years,
we're also battling throughcancer.
But you sound like you've reallybuilt the business that you want
to build.
And you're now living the life
that you want to live, despitesome of the challenges that you're
facing right now.
What do you want your impact to be
on this business, this world?And how do you think about legacy?
Legacy is a really interestingconcept when you're facing stage
(32:52):
four cancer.
And I would say that...
If I could lend my gift ofperspective to anyone, that would
feel impactful.
Even just for a micro moment, if
they could say, if I could treateveryone as if they had something
going on for them, I had theprivilege of my cancer being on
display.
I spent the better part of a year
with no hair or eyelashes,eyebrows.
And although it was reallyuncomfortable to look at that
(33:14):
reflection, It was equally asbeautiful to bask in the
generosity of strangers who wouldopen doors for you, who were
exceptionally kind for you.
And I so often thought, I'm more
sick now than I was then.
The type of cancer that I have now
is actually... considered to bemore challenging than when I was
in chemo.
(33:34):
And obviously those same
interactions just don't exist.
But if I could capture those
moments and if we could all treateach other with that same level of
tenderness and kindness andcompassion, how different our
world could be.
So if I could lend that gift of
perspective to others, if I couldshare with others the experience
of facing death, of saying goalsetting is amazing.
All of these accomplishments soundabsolutely like they will feel
good for you when you achievethem, if that's the feeling that
(33:57):
you're looking to achieve.
But if you could understand that
tomorrow truly is a gift, you'relooking if you could understand
that tomorrow truly is a gift, notevery single one of us in the
mortgage industry is going to wakeup tomorrow.
And if you can choose to wake upand choose happiness and choose
compassion and choose to cultivatethe life that feels good for you,
(34:20):
not the life that you think.
is going to comparatively make you
feel good.
That makes sense.
It makes so much sense.
And a lot of what you're saying
there is like, we will look at theindividual who we know is
struggling.
We will be so compassionate
towards them, but we don't offerourselves the same sort of
compassion and kindness, right?Because we're all going through
something in our own way.
And I do think that's why.
(34:41):
Sometimes, you know, you look atthe person with no hair and
eyebrows, like you mentioned, andwe see people that we love in our
lives who have been throughsomething like that.
Because we're that we love in ourlives who have been through
something like that.
And we see a part of ourselves.
(35:02):
But in so doing, we often forgetto give ourselves a bit of grace
as well.
Totally, totally.
And I think in the absence ofgrace, sometimes we can fall prey
to finding criticism.
And so then we criticize
ourselves.
We're harder on ourselves than
anyone else is.
And then what happens as a result
of that?We project those emotions onto
other people.
And then we create this vortex of
negativity because we're showingup in an energy that's critical,
(35:25):
that's judgmental.
And if we could just choose that
grace and compassion for ourselvesfirst.
and say, wow, that was a reallyhard day.
Shouldn't have probably said that.
I will apologize.
I'll take ownership.
I'll be accountable for it.
And then I'll just give myself atremendous amount of grace.
(35:49):
The next time you start to feeljudgment or criticism towards
someone else, it's so much easierto extend those same compassionate
feelings towards someone else whenyou practice feeling them for
yourself.
Yeah.
I love the way you're thinkingabout compassion and gratitude
that way.
So I felt that from you since.
You know, the time that we firstmet, I know that our team loves
(36:10):
working with you and your team.
So thank you for the partnership.
Thank you for everything that youdo for this industry.
And as a partner, Christine.
Thanks.
Thanks so much for having me.
And we love working with you guys
as well.
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