November 6, 2024 • 37 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Bekim is joined by Frances Hinojosa. Frances is the Co-Founder, Principal Broker, and CEO of Tribe Financial Group from Oakville, Ontario, who's won numerous accolades over her 30 years in the mortgage industry. A seasoned leader whose career spans from starting in the bank to running a firm and her own practice, Frances has always been a trusted resource for mortgage advice, sitting on many advisory boards, including MPC, and been featured across all forms of media, including the Globe and Mail and CP24. Possessing integrity, transparency, & heart, her passion for her craft can be seen not only in her excellent client care and impressive business numbers, but also in her efforts to mentor those across the mortgage industry.
Frances is here to discuss: → Her journey into the mortgage industry, banking vs brokering, and her time on the board of MPC. → The mission she has with her team/brokerage, how she's created company culture and applied core values, and the legacy she wants to leave behind. → How we can bring change to the industry with tech & innovation and new business cycles, the difference in the next generation of consumers, and what new Agents should be looking for when they pick a brokerage.
Tribe Financial Website: www.tribefinancial.com
Tribe Financial LinkedIn: @TribeFinancial
Tribe Financial Instagram: @tribe_financial
Frances Hinojosa's Website: www.franceshinojosa.ca
Frances Hinojosa's LinkedIn: @FrancesHinojosa
Frances Hinojosa's Instagram: @frannahinojosa
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Bekim Merdita.
Thank you for listening to Lending
Thoughts, sponsored by RocketPro.
Today, I'll be interviewing
Francis Hinojosa, the CEO andco-founder of Tribe Financial.
We're going to be talking abouttechnology and innovation, banking
versus brokering, and how tobecome the leader of your very own
tribe.
Take a listen in.
Good How's everything goingmorning.
(00:30):
there?You're in Windsor right?
today, I am in Windsor.
And where are you?
I am in Oakville right now.
it's Oakville.
The weather's Beautiful.
We're Yeah, like getting amazing.
the last bit of fall nice.
I'm excited.
in. of fall nice.
I'm excited.
in. It's my favorite time of year.
Same.
Same.
Like, honestly, it really is.
Yes.
You know, and I could tie it into
so many things in business whythis is my favorite time of year,
but I'm not going to steal theconversation.
I'm going to let you talk too.
Well, maybe we, uh, maybe we get
(00:50):
there a little bit.
I'm actually going to talk to you
about your business.
So nice to have you.
I'm going to start out with aquestion that requires a lot of
thought, but I'm gonna ask you totell your whole life story in 60
seconds or less and go.
All right.
So 60 seconds or less.
I am a Gen X that grew up as a
latchkey kid in basically SesameStreet.
(01:10):
So I'll give you that visual.
I've always been a serial
entrepreneur now looking back inmy childhood because you just got
to get things done and make thingshappen.
Always grew up in housing.
My dad was a builder.
So, I mean, fun fact, I coulddrive a forklift when I was seven
years old.
From there, I transitioned.
I went to school for psychology,decided to get into banking, and
then just loved the idea ofhelping people through debt and
(01:33):
tying in the emotional aspect ofhow emotional people get when it
comes to money, especially when itcomes to the debt aspects of
things.
And then intertwining the whole
idea of growing up in housing andseeing how much homes mean to
individuals.
It was just a natural fit that I
progressed into becoming amortgage specialist and doing
investment in corporate lendingand doing all those fun stuff at
the bank.
(01:54):
Did media for a while there and
then worked my way up and decidedto jump out of the bank and start
my own brokerage.
And here we are 10 years later,
you know, 30 years later in mycareer.
Yes, I'm that old.
And here I am running my brokerage
here in Ontario.
We're quite proud of Tribe
Financial.
And it just was a natural
transition from start to finish.
Natural transition from forklift
operator to psychology to bank.
(02:14):
Yeah, from the Sesame Street to
forklift operator to psychology tobanker to broker to Yeah, from the
Sesame Street to forklift operatorto psychology to banker to broker
to owner.
I love that.
That's like the like the perfectmortgage broker path, right?
That's kind of similar to manystories, which is like, didn't
know I was going to get here.
(02:35):
Somehow I ended up here.
You mentioned going from bank tobroker.
And first of all, we're thankfulthat you gave up the forklift to
jump into this industry becauseyou've done some amazing things.
But I'm curious to press on that alittle bit.
So you were on the bank side.
Were you originating as a mortgage
specialist and then went on tooriginate as a mortgage broker as
well?I did.
I actually started first as whatwas back in the day, they used to
(02:56):
call them investment lendingspecialists at the bank.
So we would work with financialadvisors to investment loans,
right?Margin accounts, that sort of
thing.
And I would say I was really good
at it.
And my mentor at the time, Mike
Bonner, he's now the head ofCanadian banking.
He actually is the one that pushedme into it.
He's like, you know, you'regetting salary.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
Like, look at your volume.
You need to make the jump over tothe commission side of things to
(03:19):
becoming a mortgage specialist.
And I hesitated for a very, very
long time.
And then I finally made the leap
over to the mortgage specialistside of things, did that for
almost close to a decade.
It's kind of funny when I look at
my career, you know, it's like inlike football and sports, you
know, you have your quarters.
Mine has always been a milestones
of every 10 years.
I find there's a natural shift in
(03:40):
transition that ends up happeningand an elevation.
It's like, okay, I'm at the end ofthe journey.
It's time to move on to anotherthing.
You know, one of the main reasonsthat I made the transition over, I
love the bank.
I was at BMO for my whole entire
career.
I know when I I I had a lot of
people say this can't be true.
left, mean, like, Like I was BMO.
Like I literally bled blue.
So much I was BMO.
(04:01):
My parents opened up their firstaccount there in 1968 when they
came to Canada.
Like in my world, there was no
other bank but Bank of Montreal.
But I saw the change in the
lending landscape.
Like after the global financial
meltdown, you start to see thetransition starting to happen with
the B20, B21 rule changes.
Common sense lending, as we used
to call it when I started threedecades ago, didn't exist anymore.
And I realized that if I reallywanted to service my clients fully
(04:24):
from their whole life journey whenit comes to their debt, it was
time to make that transition overinto the brokering world.
And it took me and my two businesspartners.
They were both mortgagespecialists at Bank of Montreal
too.
It probably took us well over a
year planning it out,strategizing, doing the business
plan, doing the vision of thebrokerage.
(04:45):
We didn't just make the leap over.
We had a vision of what we wanted
to do in our careers in thiscompany.
We just didn't want to just bebrokers.
We want to do things differently.
Yeah, I I totally, totally get
that.
And it sounds like you had a good
mentor.
You know, one of the questions I
wanted to ask you was like, you'rethinking about new agents out
there today and they're trying tofigure out for themselves, like,
(05:06):
do I go to a bank?Do I go to a brokerage?
It sounds like you benefited fromgoing to the actually, bank, and
you had a mentor or someone thatyou at least looked up to that led
you down that path.
What would you say to somebody
who's just jumping into theindustry today?
Should they start bank or shouldthey start broker if they want to
learn the trade and try to growthrough this?
(05:28):
I think it really depends.
I wouldn't say it's a
one-size-fits-all.
It depends on your life journey.
But the key thing there is findinggreat mentors.
That really what helps you withyour journey.
If you're going to go with thebank route, make sure that your
leadership there is actuallycultivating and supporting what
your goals are in your career soyou can succeed.
And the same thing if you're goingto be a broker.
a broker.
You know, I had this thing when we
hire people, and I've said thisbefore on different podcasts as
well, I will ask people, why dothey want to become a broker?
(05:49):
And quite honestly, the firstthing they say is they want to
make lots of money.
I'm not too keen on hiring them at
that point, because I know howdifficult things can be.
I know it's not an easy road to bea broker and to understand all the
nuances and to really be thatninja when it comes to structuring
a deal.
I look for people that are
coachable.
So if you are going to jump into
the brokering world, make surewhen you're interviewing the
(06:09):
brokerage, it's not just about themetrics, but it's also about the
support that's there.
And have a clear understanding of
what your journey is going to looklike and make sure you're
interviewing the person that'sgoing to be mentoring you that
they're going to be able tosupport that journey too.
So I don't think it's one or theother.
It's where you're going to bestsupport your vision moving
forward.
And you have the right, like you
(06:31):
understand this, this energy,right?
I'm going to guess you invited meon this podcast because we had a
great conversation that night whenI first met you, right?
Like you can feel people'senergies and you can feel if
you're on the same wavelength.
I've talked about this countless
times.
I'm a huge believer when it comes
to energies of individuals andactually feeling it.
You can feel when it's beingrepelled or you can feel when it's
(06:52):
being pulled in.
And when you focus on the wrong
things, when you focus on themetrics or you focus on the money,
you're losing that energeticaspect that is so important for
you to succeed in your career.
So bank, broker, just look for
great mentors to support you onyour journey.
Yeah, I love Yeah, I love that.
And you're so right.
Yeah, we had that first sort ofin-depth conversation.
I started to ask you somequestions about mortgage and like
(07:14):
you light up the way that I lightup and the way that other people
who are super passionate aboutthis light up.
And it's exciting.
I'm like, oh, she actually really
loves what she does and she loveswho she does it with and why she's
doing it.
So I'm curious to ask a little bit
more about the why you mentioned,you know, you broke off with some
friends really and colleagues, andthen you go on to start a company
(07:36):
and start building from there.
Can you just tell us a little bit
about your team, your mission,what you're up to there and who
you really want to help and why?Yeah.
So when we came into thisindustry, you know, I was telling
individuals, I'm crafting anadvisory based firm and people
thought it was absolutely crazy orthey'd be confused.
Like what is an advisory basedfirm?
Like you do mortgages, you give itthe best rate.
I'm like, no, no, we give advice.
We started with that rhetoric,
(07:56):
which is really interesting nowthat when you see the regulators
are pushing brokers to be givingadvice, like know your client and
why you're making theserecommendations.
I would say that we were on theforefront of that going back over
a decade, that we really weredrilling down.
It wasn't coming out here to builda firm just to get the best rate,
set up the mortgage and see youlater buy.
It was the lifelong journey.
It was understanding that a
(08:17):
product for a first-time homebuyertoday is not going to necessarily
be the right product for them whenthey're in their 40s and they're
looking at other goals or they'reclose to retirement.
So it was tying in that financialplanning side of things I would
see in the broker world quitelacking.
Some firms were doing it, but notquite a lot.
It was just like set it and forgetit and come up for renewal and
(08:38):
find the best rate.
Like people weren't necessarily
drilling down to the underlyingfactors of tell me more about what
it means for this house for you orthis investment or this mortgage?
What are your goals movingforward?
Where do you see your life journeyhappening?
And tying that into therecommendations that the clients
were getting.
So number one, it was that.
Two, it's also cultivating acommunity and a company where our
(08:59):
tagline is you belong.
And to me, that's super important
is the agents that come into theirfirm, I want them to be their
unique individuals.
We're not here to create, you
know, like the soldiers that areall the same during the exact same
thing and molding into ourculture.
You know, we're more of a tapestryof all different personalities.
I like to say our firm is verymuch almost like the United
(09:20):
Nations.
We have every single background,
but they're all uniquely differentand they all service different
clientele, but in being acommunity where agents can feel
like they belong and get the rightmentorship so that they're being
coached and guided so they performto their highest level and they're
succeeding at the end of the dayas well.
Okay.
So my question then would be, what
(09:40):
parts of the agent's day or lifeor them being a part of the
company are like their own?And what parts do you guys sort of
mandate?Right?
Because presumably, I mean, youcall a company tribe and you talk
about those type of values.
You do have a certain way that you
would probably like clients to betreated in a certain advisory
based service that you just demandor expect from people.
(10:00):
And then there's a place for themto paint and of course be
themselves.
But what are some of those core
values that are important to you?And then where are the places
(10:25):
where people can be artists forthemselves?
I think that word demand, thatword demand, you can never demand
people to operate at your level atyour company.
I believe that, but you caninfluence.
And I think that's what the keydifferentiating factor when it
comes to our firm is the threepartners, we still actively broker
on the most part.
So we wear two hats.
I don't broker as much, to behonest with you, that I did in my
(10:49):
early days.
But we still have a bit of skin in
the game that we understand whatour agents are going through at
the end of the day.
That being said, it's all about
the leadership.
And think of it this way.
It's very much like if you takethe psychology, if you go down to
the granular level and say kids,kids are going to behave how you
(11:09):
behave, right?It's that herd mentality.
It's when people are in thatenvironment and they see the
energy of the other individualsaround them succeeding and
operating at a certain level, justnaturally that will come out at
the end of the day.
I tie in a lot to our corporate
culture because of my backgroundin psychology and emotional
intelligence.
I tie a lot of that in there and
the caring and the understandingand slowing down conversations.
(11:31):
Our training's a little different.
It's not just all tactical when it
comes to sales scripts orunderstanding just products and
very metric oriented.
There's a lot of heart and emotion
behind that as well.
It's how to have those intelligent
emotional conversations, how to becomfortable being uncomfortable
having some of thoseconversations, how to pick up the
key points when it comes intotalking with clients to understand
body language, voice cues, whatthey're saying, pausing.
So it's a lot of that intertwinedinto our culture.
(11:51):
It's not so much demanding things,but it's through our training and
through learned behavior of whatwe're doing.
At the end of the day, I find thatnaturally it comes through.
I'm not going to lie.
There are moments that we've had
agents over the years who are justnot the right fit.
And I think as a company, you haveto be okay with that as a leader.
(12:13):
If someone's not the right fit, Iwas saying you've got to, like,
you know, just put them in a canoeand paddle them off down the
stream.
It's totally fine.
Like, it's not you.
It's not me.
We're just not the right fit.
We're not vibing.
I would never want someone at myorganization if they hate where
(12:34):
they work every single day.
That's just a horrible way to be
in my opinion, as a human being, Ivalue my agents so much that they
are probably my utmost priority.
And it's not just about them doing
business.
Like I make sure I take the time
(12:55):
to actually get to know the peoplethat work for my organization to a
granular level of who they are,what's important to them in their
life and make sure that I supportthat.
Because if they're happy in theirpersonal life, it's going to then
drive into their business and viceversa.
Like I know I can see now, I callit like an intuition or a vibe.
If someone's not performing atwork, it's not typically
necessarily the work that's notmaking them perform.
(13:16):
There's something else that'sgoing on.
And I think as leaders, we have tobe uncomfortable with the
uncomfortable conversations fromthe personal level, because we're
actually dealing with people everysingle day.
It's as simple as sitting down andcalmly saying to someone, tell me
what's going on.
And just pausing and letting them
talk and not putting up the egoand not getting defensive on it
because it's totally okay.
not pausing and letting them talk
and not putting up the ego and notgetting defensive on it because
(13:41):
it's totally okay.
Everyone's allowed to have their
own perception and let themcommunicate and be open-minded to
get the feedback from them.
I would say majority of the time
when I've done that with a lot ofmy agents over the years, I find
out it's not work.
It's not that there's something
else going on in their personallife.
And I think as leaders and ascompanies, we can't ignore
(14:02):
supporting our agents and ouremployees from a personal level as
well.
I think that's just as important
as supporting them from thebusiness level as I well.
I could not agree more.
You know, what you're really
speaking to is like the essence ofhumans helping humans.
I used to have a leader that had abest practice that I carry with me
still today and ask people howthey are three times.
(14:24):
So you go up and you're like, howare you?
First thing someone always says,good.
And then you're like, yeah, howare you?
And they're like, yeah, I'm good.
And you ask them that third time.
And they're like, oh, well,actually, you know, my car broke
down and I'm fighting with myspouse.
And like, next thing you know,there's like, boom, like it just
all starts to vomit out.
And it's because typically the
first, how are you is the surfacelevel.
And you can't run around just likedownloading your problems on
everybody.
But when someone actually tells
(14:44):
you, like, I'm here, and I'mlistening, talk to me, and let's
have a conversation about it.
And you show up as part of their
tribe, you know, pun intendedthere.
And you're like, hey, I'm here tounderstand, I'm here to help.
And you come from that place ofunderstanding.
ground from like somebody who's aleader on paper to somebody who's
a leader of another human being.
And in many ways, they're also
(15:06):
leading you and it becomes thismutually beneficial relationship
rather than this mutuallynecessary relationship of, you
know, leader, worker, worker,leader, like that's not how you
build great company culture.
And I'm guessing your background
in psychology has led you to theperson that you are today to be
able to create that type ofculture for sure.
I think the background run thebackground in psychology, but
going back to what I talked aboutat the beginning, my background of
my childhood, like growing up inthat sort of Sesame Street, I call
(15:30):
it like literally it felt likeSesame Street.
We're talking like Toronto, lowrise, you know, apartment
buildings, you know, UnitedNations, Immigrant Central, like
this was the 70s, right?Like kids just running around with
like fire hoses and no helmets.
And from the time, you know, the
streetlights came on to us, right?Like, everyone took care of
everyone.
But I think that actually started
my love and appreciation for humanbeings.
And I think the best businessleaders I saw out there are not
(15:51):
afraid to have difficultconversations, but at the same
time, have a very strong internalcaring nature when it comes to
human beings that they truly wantthe best for them.
It's not just self-centered tothemselves at the end of the day.
It's like being okay to have thosedeeper conversations, not when
people say good, they're good.
Actually listening to the vocal
(16:12):
tones and going, I don't think youare.
Right.
And you know, I want to be the ear
that listens, that maybe I cangive you some guidance and
mentorship of things that youcould be doing in your life to
make you feel okay.
When you start to do that in a
company, you feel okay.
When you start to do that in a
company, what you'll start to seeis you create that trust factor.
(16:33):
And that's huge.
Trust is super important in
business as part of buildingrelationships.
If you can learn how to buildtrust with individuals from a
genuine level, like I'm talkingfrom the soul level, build that
trust, not surface.
You'll see a difference in your
performance in your business.
You'll see a difference in your
performance when it comes to yourrelationships.
(16:54):
You'll see a difference when itcomes to your companies.
We're heading into a new cycle inbusiness because technology is so
prevalent.
One thing that technology, I'm a
firm believer in this, that can'tfully replace is that heart energy
and that caring that comes acrosswhen you're having conversations
with people and looking themdirectly in the eye and just
listening and providing thatempathy for them and that coaching
(17:16):
and that mentorship.
You can't get that from machines.
That's really what woulddifferentiate you either as a
leader or even as a mortgagebroker out there if you can figure
that out and crack that and learnthat skill that's how you become a
high performing agent yeah youcan't fake care i like to say and
you're talking about sesame streetit has me thinking about like it's
(17:36):
starting to add up now kids thinkyou can't fake care i like to say
and you're talking about sesamestreet it has me thinking about
like it's starting to add up nowwhy you are the way you are like
it's that community right like youunderstand how to coexist inside
of community and if you actuallycare about the community then it
starts to add up and you start tobuild a team and you start to care
(17:59):
about what other people are doingwhether or not they're having
success and you start to careabout your clients because some of
those questions you're asking andi'm talking about are like asking
people about like hey how are youlike i'm good it's the same as
like when you ask a client, Hey,how can I help you today?
And they're like, I just need yourbest rate on a three-year fix.
(18:22):
And your first instance, if you'rea poor salesperson is to go,
here's the rate.
But if you're good at what you do
and you actually care abouthelping people, you go, why is
that the most important thing toyou?
And they'll say X. And then youask another question.
Then you ask another question.
And it turns out they actually
(18:43):
needed a five-year variable andthey need to like sell their
rental property that they'reholding onto this negative
cashflow to help them pay downsome debts and then apply it to
the equity of their home.
And next thing you know, you've
got a full financial plan.
And in the beginning, they just
wanted a rate.
And now you've transitioned from
rate provider to actual advisor.
And to hear you talk about that
and what you build in yourtraining, I think is so important.
I think that's what makes greatmortgage brokers.
And I think it's what makes greatcommunities of mortgage brokers.
And I would love to see usmaintain that level of spirit on
(19:07):
the topic of community.
And now it's all starting to make
sense to me, because if I'm notmistaken, you spent some time with
MPC.
Is that correct?
On the board there or giving back?What was your role at MPC?
What were you doing there for themortgage broker community?
And can you tell us a little bitabout it?
MPC, I was on the board.
I also did a short stint on the
executive committee as well, orthe executive board as a
secretary.
So a lot of MPC right now is very
heavy on the government relationsside of things, which is
(19:28):
important.
You know what, the government and
the MPs and that are very busy indoing their own stuff.
Like they are bombarded.
This is what brokers have to
understand.
It's not just housing.
They're bombarded with everyoneputting their hand up saying my
issue is important, mine's mine.
And they have to filter down and
figure out, okay, what is the bestfor the greater good?
That's just the reality of it.
So a lot of the time was the
(19:48):
government relations, listening tomembers of what their concerns
are.
I know everyone wants everything
changed and fixed overnight, butthey have to realize that you
can't steer a ship overnight tochange exactly as you want.
And we go through cycles in themortgage industry.
That's just how the housing marketworks.
I've been through, you know, 30years of different cycles, like
everything from a dot-com boom tothe financial global meltdown in
(20:08):
the US.
Yes, the big short, I lived it,
saw it, was in it.
So, you know, they're all cycles
that happened.
You know, it was just providing me
the advice and the experience thatI obtained over the last few
decades and tried to, you know,hopefully make a little bit of a
mark in the difference of theindustry.
saw Do you feel like you made yourmark?
(20:29):
No, not there.
You know, I don't think looking
back now, the board wasn't theplace for me to make the mark and
the difference really, truly, it'swhat I'm doing outside of that.
So, you know, the sidebarconversations that I have with
individuals at events or people inthe industry that reach out that,
you know, I offer them advice andmentorship and no judgment.
I think that's the most importantpart.
Everyone's on their own journey atthe end of the day.
(20:51):
It's not up to us to decide theirjourney.
It's up to us as leaders toprovide a bit of light on the path
or just show them the obstaclesthat we went through and let them
make their choices because that'spart of the learning process and
what I'm trying to do with thecompany at the end of the day.
To me, I think that was moreimpactful than, you know, the time
serves on the board, to bebrutally honest with you.
(21:11):
I think, you know, for myselfgetting on the board, I thought it
would be more impactful than itactually was.
But I don't think that the boardat the end of the day or MPC or
any of the associations, they havea part to fill, but they're not
the end all of all when it comesto our industry.
Is that just the complex ofbureaucracy in nature?
Of course.
Is it a bureaucratic issue?
(21:32):
Is it a Is it a bureaucraticissue?
Like, is it just like things justtake so long to get done?
I mean, there's some obvious onesright now.
Every mortgage broker who does anybit of volume at scale and tries
to do things the right way seemsto be saying similar things over
the last several years.
Like, you know, they're bad
actors, but there are so many goodactors and we can't let the bad
(21:52):
actors ruin this for us.
We must do this job with diligence
and there are ways in which wecould do that and we could do a
great job at that.
And some of these things just seem
so obvious on the surface levelthat would just improve the
industry, improve the consumerexperience, would eliminate fraud,
would make lending better andbrokering better for everybody.
Why can't we just snap our fingersand just get them done?
(22:14):
They're obvious to everyoneinvolved.
If you're talking from talkingfrom an association level, you
have to remember an associationlevel, and you understand this.
You've been around the block longenough.
You have different people withdifferent agendas that come on
there.
That's just the reality of it when
you have associations like that.
And so anything negative is just
the truth.
People going in there has, okay,
this is my goals.
This is my agenda.
This is what I want to implement.
This will better me and my company
(22:35):
because everyone is different onwhat they want to accomplish.
So bureaucracy happens because yougot a lot of heads sort of
bouncing off each other at the endof the day, because I want this.
No, I want that.
I want vanilla, but I want
strawberry.
I want chocolate, right?
But no one can figure out maybewe'll make Napoleon ice cream and
have all three flavors, right?Like you're spending more time
(22:56):
arguing why someone's idea isbetter than the other person's
idea.
I think there's a lot of hard
truths in our industry.
To your point, there are
tremendous brokers out there thatdo fabulous work every single day.
And there's also the bad side ofit, but that's like any industry
that's out there.
The differences that I believe in
our industry is the lack ofaccountability of calling
sometimes these things out.
And as a leader, having those
difficult conversations like, youknow what, that's not going to
(23:16):
happen in my house and I don'tcare where you go.
And I don't care how much this isgoing to hurt my bottom line at
the end of the day because Ioperate from a certain level of
ethics and morals and it's notdriven by money.
I want to make sure that we'redoing the right thing.
What's the quote?What's the saying?
You might know better than me, butit's sometimes doing the right
thing is the hardest thing thatyou can do at the end of the day
(23:40):
because a lot of the times it goesagainst the grain of what everyone
else is doing.
It's being different.
Do you know where the change isgoing to happen?
And I thought about this.
I had a conversation with someone
else when we were talking thisthrough.
I do believe companies such asyourself, I think the bigger
fintech companies that are outthere are the ones that are going
to have to create the change whenit comes to digital verification.
(24:02):
I think we have to stop waitingfor the government to do it.
You know technology and you knowthe advances.
There's other ways to do this.
You don't need to plug into CRA to
get the comfort level that theclient is legitimately doing what
they're doing today.
You'd have to be naive or under a
rock to not realize how public ourlives are out there.
If you have a digital footprint, Ican find out anything about you
today, right?I'm more excited to see what you
(24:22):
guys do at Rocket.
Because I think, you know what, if
you guys have the scope of doingit with technology, then you guys
become the leader or anotherfintech company and being able to
do that digital verification andlet them catch up.
Right.
You're going to need some of this
industry to do it first and leteveryone else catch up because
that's the only way innovation andchange happens.
(24:44):
I think sometimes we all waitaround for everyone else to do it
first and let everyone else catchup because that's the only way
innovation and change happens.
I think sometimes we all wait
around for everyone else to do Andit.
so everyone could do it at thesame I time.
think what we need to start to seeis more people now with digital
advancements to step up and justsay, hey, you know what, I'm going
(25:04):
to be the first to do it.
And this is what we're going to do
and be brave about it.
And trust me, everyone else will
catch up over time.
Yeah, that's really well of really
well said.
I think about it as social credit.
And there are a lot of companiesstarting to pop up in that space
and prove out some credit modelsthat actually prove to be more
accurate at predicting defaultthan a traditional credit score.
Probably doesn't surprise you,right?
Like you could look at a, youknow, a credit bureau and that
(25:26):
doesn't tell you everything thatyou need to know about an
individual.
And it also doesn't verify
everything that you'd want toverify from a regulatory and PII
perspective to make sure that youunderstand exactly who you're
talking to, what they're trying toaccomplish, why, and is it
legitimate?So I'm excited for the future
there.
There's some things that I think
we can certainly do here in time.
And we're trying to implement some
of those things on the fly rightnow.
(25:47):
I mean, some of it we're doingjust with our onboarding with
RocketPro, our broker channellender.
You guys are actually our newestpartner in that space.
And we're really, really excitedto be working with Tribe.
I'm curious, you've worked with somany lenders over the years,
obviously a bank for many of them.
That bank has since gone on to
(26:07):
enter the broker channelthemselves.
You have worked with many of theother banks and other large
monoline lenders in the space.
What do you think needs to improve
from the lending aspect?And what do you think that, you
know, I hate to label asinnovators, but I like to think of
us that way, but innovators likeus, thank you, looking at this a
little bit differently saying,okay, let's come in with a very
(26:29):
fresh set of eyes.
We don't have sometimes the weight
of, you know, this is the way it'sbeen done for forever, but very
fresh perspective on the matter tosay, okay, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
Here's all these other things that
don't make sense.
Here's how we can improve on them.
You know, we're thinking about alot of things like that, but from
somebody who's been through atthis it, seen it a bunch of
different ways, you see a newlender like RocketPro, what
excites you and what do you thinkwe can do?
I was excited when you guys cameinto the market space, let alone
signing up with you guys.
We're going back a few years ago.
Because I've been so entrenched inthe mortgage world, I follow the
mortgage world globally.
I know I'm a bit of a mortgage
(26:50):
nerd.
Housing and mortgage fascinate me,
right?Like it really does.
I pay attention to what happensin, you know, in the UK and in
Australia and in the US.
And I find it super fascinating.
Well, I was excited with you guyscoming into the Canadian space.
It's like I was very cognizant ofthe advancements that the company
was doing in the US.
And that excited me because I find
(27:12):
in Canada, there's such a lag whenit comes to innovation and when it
comes to technology.
My goodness, like 10 years ago,
look at the lending platforms thatwe used to use to the advancements
that are today.
But then if you look 10 years ago,
what's happening globally orwhat's happening in the US, like
light years ahead, like we're sofar behind.
You're and right, it is theinnovation.
Going back to what we were talkingabout previously, I really do
(27:33):
believe that innovative companiessuch as yourself and other
companies that are out there,other fintech companies are the
ones that are going to be fixingthe issues when it comes to
worrying about falsifying ofdocuments and that, because you
guys get it.
Technology can fill that gap and
fix that problem.
Brand recognition, I think, is the
other thing too.
I mean, consumers in the younger
(27:53):
generation are going to dictatewhere they're going to want to get
their mortgage at the end of theday.
Yes, they'll deal with the broker,but they're going to have a lot
more input when it comes to that.
And if you look on to the future
of banking, in my opinion, thosecompanies that are out there like
your Wealthsimples and your Neosand your Rockets have such a
better brand recognition when itcomes to social media, when it
(28:14):
comes to the internet, that, youknow, I look at my teenagers now,
they'll recognize your brand overa company that's been around for
30 years in the industry.
I'm talking outside the banks, I'm
talking to monoline lenders,because they haven't done a really
good job of being forward facingto the consumer.
And, you know, they're very slowto spend the money or innovate
when it comes to their technologyfor the consumer as well.
So it's all of that in between andthinking of the future is yeah,
(28:34):
funny.
A lot of the ideas I get from my
I'll run it through my teenagersto be like, business, so just
imagine you're buying a house in10 years from now.
What do you think of this andthis, this?
Because I'm cognizant of the factthat they're the next generation
of buyers coming in and everyoneelse after that's going to catch
up to them as well as to whatthey're doing.
I think the biggest mistake that alot of lenders are doing in this
(28:58):
industry is they're spending somuch time focused on getting deals
in the door by trying to run thepricing model to the very bottom
line.
And not adding the added value,
tying it in there to yourturnaround time, like blew my
mind.
Hours, not days, right?
Days.
Some of the banks are doing it,
but a lot of the monoline lendersaren't.
Why aren't you underwritingdocuments or deals with documents
up front?It is so inefficient to give an
(29:19):
approval based on air.
That's what you're doing.
Like the amount of inefficienciesby operating your business that
way just blows my mind.
Then it erodes the client
experience at the end of the day,doing something that is very
stressful for them.
So I am now focused more on paying
attention to the companies thatare innovating and the companies
that are innovating.
(29:40):
I'm thinking to myself, I don't
really necessarily need to workwith them because other than a
super low interest rate, whatother value are you giving the
consumer at the end of the day?Because that's what matters, the
consumer experience.
I love love that.
30 years in, mind is focused oninnovation.
I like that idea of just askingsomebody who's much younger.
Think about that too.
(30:01):
Where would you go if you were
going to get a mortgage?And the crazy part is, it's like
TikTok and YouTube and all theother places, right?
Like, I would start by searchinghere.
Like, they no longer, like, puttheir briefcase in their hand and,
like, walk to the bank at thecorner to try to figure out how to
get financial services.
They log onto their phone and
(30:23):
whatever their, like, little, youknow, native search tool that
they're used to using is, that'swhere they go.
And the companies that show upthere, which is one of the things
with us at RocketPro, the firstthing we did was like, hey, we're
going to measure in hours, notdays.
We're going to be extremely fast.
We're going to flag that to the
broker and they can pass it on tothe consumer.
(30:50):
They can make that promise totheir client that I'm going to be
super fast.
And then we're going to deliver on
that.
And then we're going to give the
broker a social tile that they canactually share to their social
media saying, you know, the dealthat I just submitted was approved
in two hours.
And they can put that on their own
social media.
And the client can look at it and
say, that was my mortgage thatthey told me would go really fast.
And now they actually delivered onthat.
And it's showing up on social andI'm getting social validation,
(31:11):
social proof of that.
And that flywheel starts to turn
faster and faster.
And that makes our team want to be
faster because they look at thatstuff and they get excited by it.
And they're like, hey, people areloving this.
Let's do more of that.
And then when you start creating a
culture of speed and innovationfor us, that's how we've tried to
(31:33):
show up.
So I'm going to round it out by
just asking you then, you've donea lot of great things, obviously
founding a company and building abrand and making a lot of clients
happy over many years and talked alittle bit about children as well.
But what do you want your lastingimpact to be on life, this
(31:53):
industry or otherwise?For people to be seen and
appreciated and understood.
I think that's the pitfall of
technology today.
The flip side of it is people can
hide behind it so much now that Ifear sometimes that people are not
feeling seen and understood andappreciated.
To me, that's the essence of beinga human being.
I want to know that every personthat I talked to felt like that
they were being seen andunderstood and I was listening to
(32:16):
them.
I think as a culture, sometimes we
spend so much time strolling onsocial media that we don't spend
enough time actually havingconversations.
It's through the conversationsthat you really get the stories
and get the experience.
And that's how we grow as humans.
I mean, if you go back toevolutionary times, what did
people do at night?You sat around the campfire and
you told stories to each other.
And that's how things were passed
down generationally.
I think a lot of the times that
(32:38):
gets diluted when it comes totechnology and it's sending, like
you said, a quick text, how areyou?
I'm good.
That does nothing to build the
connections and pass on theexperience that I have to the next
generation.
I'm cognizant of the fact of my
age.
I know that I'm not going to be in
this world forever.
And I want to be able to pass on
the knowledge and the learningsthat I've learned throughout the
years to make the next generationof brokers even better.
I do believe deep in my heartbrokers are needed.
They will never be replaced bytechnology.
(32:58):
Technology will only enhance theexperience and teaching brokers
how to balance that tightropebetween the two, provide value to
Canadian consumers when it comesto their debt.
And also, lastly, for Canadianconsumers to understand that debt
should not be something that youset and forget.
It should be part of your overallplan.
I think culturally andgenerationally, we're getting
better at talking about money.
But if you think back, like think
about our parents' generations,like you didn't talk about money.
Like that was just like, no, youdid not talk about money.
(33:19):
You did not have thoseconversations.
Like they were not fun.
I think we have to start creating
that culture that it is okay tohave these conversations that, you
know, we see you, we hear you, weunderstand you, we care.
We want to make sure that you areliving your best life.
There's no judgment herewhatsoever.
Let's figure this out.
Let's figure out the plan and make
sure you're successful movingforward.
I love that.
It's making more sense with each
time I ask you a question, why youcalled your company Tribe
(33:42):
Financial.
We're going back to historical
tribes now and the way theyinteracted to become the people
that they were and become thepeople that we are today.
So I think you've made an awesomeimpact already.
And I know you're just gettingstarted and excited to continue to
watch you guys on your journey.
Thank you for your partnership and
(34:03):
your friendship, Frances.
You're welcome.
Thank you so much.
Hi, I'm Bekim Merdita.
Thank you for listening to Lending
Thoughts, sponsored by RocketPro.
Today, I'll be interviewing
Francis Hinojosa, the CEO andco-founder of Tribe Financial.
We're going to be talking abouttechnology and innovation, banking
versus brokering, and how tobecome the leader of your very own
tribe.
Take a listen in.
Good How's everything goingmorning.
(00:30):
there?You're in Windsor right?
today, I am in Windsor.
And where are you?
I am in Oakville right now.
it's Oakville.
The weather's Beautiful.
We're Yeah, like getting amazing.
the last bit of fall nice.
I'm excited.
in. of fall nice.
I'm excited.
in. It's my favorite time of year.
Same.
Same.
Like, honestly, it really is.
Yes.
You know, and I could tie it into
so many things in business whythis is my favorite time of year,
but I'm not going to steal theconversation.
I'm going to let you talk too.
Well, maybe we, uh, maybe we get
(00:50):
there a little bit.
I'm actually going to talk to you
about your business.
So nice to have you.
I'm going to start out with aquestion that requires a lot of
thought, but I'm gonna ask you totell your whole life story in 60
seconds or less and go.
All right.
So 60 seconds or less.
I am a Gen X that grew up as a
latchkey kid in basically SesameStreet.
(01:10):
So I'll give you that visual.
I've always been a serial
entrepreneur now looking back inmy childhood because you just got
to get things done and make thingshappen.
Always grew up in housing.
My dad was a builder.
So, I mean, fun fact, I coulddrive a forklift when I was seven
years old.
From there, I transitioned.
I went to school for psychology,decided to get into banking, and
then just loved the idea ofhelping people through debt and
(01:33):
tying in the emotional aspect ofhow emotional people get when it
comes to money, especially when itcomes to the debt aspects of
things.
And then intertwining the whole
idea of growing up in housing andseeing how much homes mean to
individuals.
It was just a natural fit that I
progressed into becoming amortgage specialist and doing
investment in corporate lendingand doing all those fun stuff at
the bank.
(01:54):
Did media for a while there and
then worked my way up and decidedto jump out of the bank and start
my own brokerage.
And here we are 10 years later,
you know, 30 years later in mycareer.
Yes, I'm that old.
And here I am running my brokerage
here in Ontario.
We're quite proud of Tribe
Financial.
And it just was a natural
transition from start to finish.
Natural transition from forklift
operator to psychology to bank.
(02:14):
Yeah, from the Sesame Street to
forklift operator to psychology tobanker to broker to Yeah, from the
Sesame Street to forklift operatorto psychology to banker to broker
to owner.
I love that.
That's like the like the perfectmortgage broker path, right?
That's kind of similar to manystories, which is like, didn't
know I was going to get here.
(02:35):
Somehow I ended up here.
You mentioned going from bank tobroker.
And first of all, we're thankfulthat you gave up the forklift to
jump into this industry becauseyou've done some amazing things.
But I'm curious to press on that alittle bit.
So you were on the bank side.
Were you originating as a mortgage
specialist and then went on tooriginate as a mortgage broker as
well?I did.
I actually started first as whatwas back in the day, they used to
(02:56):
call them investment lendingspecialists at the bank.
So we would work with financialadvisors to investment loans,
right?Margin accounts, that sort of
thing.
And I would say I was really good
at it.
And my mentor at the time, Mike
Bonner, he's now the head ofCanadian banking.
He actually is the one that pushedme into it.
He's like, you know, you'regetting salary.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
Like, look at your volume.
You need to make the jump over tothe commission side of things to
(03:19):
becoming a mortgage specialist.
And I hesitated for a very, very
long time.
And then I finally made the leap
over to the mortgage specialistside of things, did that for
almost close to a decade.
It's kind of funny when I look at
my career, you know, it's like inlike football and sports, you
know, you have your quarters.
Mine has always been a milestones
of every 10 years.
I find there's a natural shift in
(03:40):
transition that ends up happeningand an elevation.
It's like, okay, I'm at the end ofthe journey.
It's time to move on to anotherthing.
You know, one of the main reasonsthat I made the transition over, I
love the bank.
I was at BMO for my whole entire
career.
I know when I I I had a lot of
people say this can't be true.
left, mean, like, Like I was BMO.
Like I literally bled blue.
So much I was BMO.
(04:01):
My parents opened up their firstaccount there in 1968 when they
came to Canada.
Like in my world, there was no
other bank but Bank of Montreal.
But I saw the change in the
lending landscape.
Like after the global financial
meltdown, you start to see thetransition starting to happen with
the B20, B21 rule changes.
Common sense lending, as we used
to call it when I started threedecades ago, didn't exist anymore.
And I realized that if I reallywanted to service my clients fully
(04:24):
from their whole life journey whenit comes to their debt, it was
time to make that transition overinto the brokering world.
And it took me and my two businesspartners.
They were both mortgagespecialists at Bank of Montreal
too.
It probably took us well over a
year planning it out,strategizing, doing the business
plan, doing the vision of thebrokerage.
(04:45):
We didn't just make the leap over.
We had a vision of what we wanted
to do in our careers in thiscompany.
We just didn't want to just bebrokers.
We want to do things differently.
Yeah, I I totally, totally get
that.
And it sounds like you had a good
mentor.
You know, one of the questions I
wanted to ask you was like, you'rethinking about new agents out
there today and they're trying tofigure out for themselves, like,
(05:06):
do I go to a bank?Do I go to a brokerage?
It sounds like you benefited fromgoing to the actually, bank, and
you had a mentor or someone thatyou at least looked up to that led
you down that path.
What would you say to somebody
who's just jumping into theindustry today?
Should they start bank or shouldthey start broker if they want to
learn the trade and try to growthrough this?
(05:28):
I think it really depends.
I wouldn't say it's a
one-size-fits-all.
It depends on your life journey.
But the key thing there is findinggreat mentors.
That really what helps you withyour journey.
If you're going to go with thebank route, make sure that your
leadership there is actuallycultivating and supporting what
your goals are in your career soyou can succeed.
And the same thing if you're goingto be a broker.
a broker.
You know, I had this thing when we
hire people, and I've said thisbefore on different podcasts as
well, I will ask people, why dothey want to become a broker?
(05:49):
And quite honestly, the firstthing they say is they want to
make lots of money.
I'm not too keen on hiring them at
that point, because I know howdifficult things can be.
I know it's not an easy road to bea broker and to understand all the
nuances and to really be thatninja when it comes to structuring
a deal.
I look for people that are
coachable.
So if you are going to jump into
the brokering world, make surewhen you're interviewing the
(06:09):
brokerage, it's not just about themetrics, but it's also about the
support that's there.
And have a clear understanding of
what your journey is going to looklike and make sure you're
interviewing the person that'sgoing to be mentoring you that
they're going to be able tosupport that journey too.
So I don't think it's one or theother.
It's where you're going to bestsupport your vision moving
forward.
And you have the right, like you
(06:31):
understand this, this energy,right?
I'm going to guess you invited meon this podcast because we had a
great conversation that night whenI first met you, right?
Like you can feel people'senergies and you can feel if
you're on the same wavelength.
I've talked about this countless
times.
I'm a huge believer when it comes
to energies of individuals andactually feeling it.
You can feel when it's beingrepelled or you can feel when it's
(06:52):
being pulled in.
And when you focus on the wrong
things, when you focus on themetrics or you focus on the money,
you're losing that energeticaspect that is so important for
you to succeed in your career.
So bank, broker, just look for
great mentors to support you onyour journey.
Yeah, I love Yeah, I love that.
And you're so right.
Yeah, we had that first sort ofin-depth conversation.
I started to ask you somequestions about mortgage and like
(07:14):
you light up the way that I lightup and the way that other people
who are super passionate aboutthis light up.
And it's exciting.
I'm like, oh, she actually really
loves what she does and she loveswho she does it with and why she's
doing it.
So I'm curious to ask a little bit
more about the why you mentioned,you know, you broke off with some
friends really and colleagues, andthen you go on to start a company
(07:36):
and start building from there.
Can you just tell us a little bit
about your team, your mission,what you're up to there and who
you really want to help and why?Yeah.
So when we came into thisindustry, you know, I was telling
individuals, I'm crafting anadvisory based firm and people
thought it was absolutely crazy orthey'd be confused.
Like what is an advisory basedfirm?
Like you do mortgages, you give itthe best rate.
I'm like, no, no, we give advice.
We started with that rhetoric,
(07:56):
which is really interesting nowthat when you see the regulators
are pushing brokers to be givingadvice, like know your client and
why you're making theserecommendations.
I would say that we were on theforefront of that going back over
a decade, that we really weredrilling down.
It wasn't coming out here to builda firm just to get the best rate,
set up the mortgage and see youlater buy.
It was the lifelong journey.
It was understanding that a
(08:17):
product for a first-time homebuyertoday is not going to necessarily
be the right product for them whenthey're in their 40s and they're
looking at other goals or they'reclose to retirement.
So it was tying in that financialplanning side of things I would
see in the broker world quitelacking.
Some firms were doing it, but notquite a lot.
It was just like set it and forgetit and come up for renewal and
(08:38):
find the best rate.
Like people weren't necessarily
drilling down to the underlyingfactors of tell me more about what
it means for this house for you orthis investment or this mortgage?
What are your goals movingforward?
Where do you see your life journeyhappening?
And tying that into therecommendations that the clients
were getting.
So number one, it was that.
Two, it's also cultivating acommunity and a company where our
(08:59):
tagline is you belong.
And to me, that's super important
is the agents that come into theirfirm, I want them to be their
unique individuals.
We're not here to create, you
know, like the soldiers that areall the same during the exact same
thing and molding into ourculture.
You know, we're more of a tapestryof all different personalities.
I like to say our firm is verymuch almost like the United
(09:20):
Nations.
We have every single background,
but they're all uniquely differentand they all service different
clientele, but in being acommunity where agents can feel
like they belong and get the rightmentorship so that they're being
coached and guided so they performto their highest level and they're
succeeding at the end of the dayas well.
Okay.
So my question then would be, what
(09:40):
parts of the agent's day or lifeor them being a part of the
company are like their own?And what parts do you guys sort of
mandate?Right?
Because presumably, I mean, youcall a company tribe and you talk
about those type of values.
You do have a certain way that you
would probably like clients to betreated in a certain advisory
based service that you just demandor expect from people.
(10:00):
And then there's a place for themto paint and of course be
themselves.
But what are some of those core
values that are important to you?And then where are the places
(10:25):
where people can be artists forthemselves?
I think that word demand, thatword demand, you can never demand
people to operate at your level atyour company.
I believe that, but you caninfluence.
And I think that's what the keydifferentiating factor when it
comes to our firm is the threepartners, we still actively broker
on the most part.
So we wear two hats.
I don't broker as much, to behonest with you, that I did in my
(10:49):
early days.
But we still have a bit of skin in
the game that we understand whatour agents are going through at
the end of the day.
That being said, it's all about
the leadership.
And think of it this way.
It's very much like if you takethe psychology, if you go down to
the granular level and say kids,kids are going to behave how you
(11:09):
behave, right?It's that herd mentality.
It's when people are in thatenvironment and they see the
energy of the other individualsaround them succeeding and
operating at a certain level, justnaturally that will come out at
the end of the day.
I tie in a lot to our corporate
culture because of my backgroundin psychology and emotional
intelligence.
I tie a lot of that in there and
the caring and the understandingand slowing down conversations.
(11:31):
Our training's a little different.
It's not just all tactical when it
comes to sales scripts orunderstanding just products and
very metric oriented.
There's a lot of heart and emotion
behind that as well.
It's how to have those intelligent
emotional conversations, how to becomfortable being uncomfortable
having some of thoseconversations, how to pick up the
key points when it comes intotalking with clients to understand
body language, voice cues, whatthey're saying, pausing.
So it's a lot of that intertwinedinto our culture.
(11:51):
It's not so much demanding things,but it's through our training and
through learned behavior of whatwe're doing.
At the end of the day, I find thatnaturally it comes through.
I'm not going to lie.
There are moments that we've had
agents over the years who are justnot the right fit.
And I think as a company, you haveto be okay with that as a leader.
(12:13):
If someone's not the right fit, Iwas saying you've got to, like,
you know, just put them in a canoeand paddle them off down the
stream.
It's totally fine.
Like, it's not you.
It's not me.
We're just not the right fit.
We're not vibing.
I would never want someone at myorganization if they hate where
(12:34):
they work every single day.
That's just a horrible way to be
in my opinion, as a human being, Ivalue my agents so much that they
are probably my utmost priority.
And it's not just about them doing
business.
Like I make sure I take the time
(12:55):
to actually get to know the peoplethat work for my organization to a
granular level of who they are,what's important to them in their
life and make sure that I supportthat.
Because if they're happy in theirpersonal life, it's going to then
drive into their business and viceversa.
Like I know I can see now, I callit like an intuition or a vibe.
If someone's not performing atwork, it's not typically
necessarily the work that's notmaking them perform.
(13:16):
There's something else that'sgoing on.
And I think as leaders, we have tobe uncomfortable with the
uncomfortable conversations fromthe personal level, because we're
actually dealing with people everysingle day.
It's as simple as sitting down andcalmly saying to someone, tell me
what's going on.
And just pausing and letting them
talk and not putting up the egoand not getting defensive on it
because it's totally okay.
not pausing and letting them talk
and not putting up the ego and notgetting defensive on it because
(13:41):
it's totally okay.
Everyone's allowed to have their
own perception and let themcommunicate and be open-minded to
get the feedback from them.
I would say majority of the time
when I've done that with a lot ofmy agents over the years, I find
out it's not work.
It's not that there's something
else going on in their personallife.
And I think as leaders and ascompanies, we can't ignore
(14:02):
supporting our agents and ouremployees from a personal level as
well.
I think that's just as important
as supporting them from thebusiness level as I well.
I could not agree more.
You know, what you're really
speaking to is like the essence ofhumans helping humans.
I used to have a leader that had abest practice that I carry with me
still today and ask people howthey are three times.
(14:24):
So you go up and you're like, howare you?
First thing someone always says,good.
And then you're like, yeah, howare you?
And they're like, yeah, I'm good.
And you ask them that third time.
And they're like, oh, well,actually, you know, my car broke
down and I'm fighting with myspouse.
And like, next thing you know,there's like, boom, like it just
all starts to vomit out.
And it's because typically the
first, how are you is the surfacelevel.
And you can't run around just likedownloading your problems on
everybody.
But when someone actually tells
(14:44):
you, like, I'm here, and I'mlistening, talk to me, and let's
have a conversation about it.
And you show up as part of their
tribe, you know, pun intendedthere.
And you're like, hey, I'm here tounderstand, I'm here to help.
And you come from that place ofunderstanding.
ground from like somebody who's aleader on paper to somebody who's
a leader of another human being.
And in many ways, they're also
(15:06):
leading you and it becomes thismutually beneficial relationship
rather than this mutuallynecessary relationship of, you
know, leader, worker, worker,leader, like that's not how you
build great company culture.
And I'm guessing your background
in psychology has led you to theperson that you are today to be
able to create that type ofculture for sure.
I think the background run thebackground in psychology, but
going back to what I talked aboutat the beginning, my background of
my childhood, like growing up inthat sort of Sesame Street, I call
(15:30):
it like literally it felt likeSesame Street.
We're talking like Toronto, lowrise, you know, apartment
buildings, you know, UnitedNations, Immigrant Central, like
this was the 70s, right?Like kids just running around with
like fire hoses and no helmets.
And from the time, you know, the
streetlights came on to us, right?Like, everyone took care of
everyone.
But I think that actually started
my love and appreciation for humanbeings.
And I think the best businessleaders I saw out there are not
(15:51):
afraid to have difficultconversations, but at the same
time, have a very strong internalcaring nature when it comes to
human beings that they truly wantthe best for them.
It's not just self-centered tothemselves at the end of the day.
It's like being okay to have thosedeeper conversations, not when
people say good, they're good.
Actually listening to the vocal
(16:12):
tones and going, I don't think youare.
Right.
And you know, I want to be the ear
that listens, that maybe I cangive you some guidance and
mentorship of things that youcould be doing in your life to
make you feel okay.
When you start to do that in a
company, you feel okay.
When you start to do that in a
company, what you'll start to seeis you create that trust factor.
(16:33):
And that's huge.
Trust is super important in
business as part of buildingrelationships.
If you can learn how to buildtrust with individuals from a
genuine level, like I'm talkingfrom the soul level, build that
trust, not surface.
You'll see a difference in your
performance in your business.
You'll see a difference in your
performance when it comes to yourrelationships.
(16:54):
You'll see a difference when itcomes to your companies.
We're heading into a new cycle inbusiness because technology is so
prevalent.
One thing that technology, I'm a
firm believer in this, that can'tfully replace is that heart energy
and that caring that comes acrosswhen you're having conversations
with people and looking themdirectly in the eye and just
listening and providing thatempathy for them and that coaching
(17:16):
and that mentorship.
You can't get that from machines.
That's really what woulddifferentiate you either as a
leader or even as a mortgagebroker out there if you can figure
that out and crack that and learnthat skill that's how you become a
high performing agent yeah youcan't fake care i like to say and
you're talking about sesame streetit has me thinking about like it's
(17:36):
starting to add up now kids thinkyou can't fake care i like to say
and you're talking about sesamestreet it has me thinking about
like it's starting to add up nowwhy you are the way you are like
it's that community right like youunderstand how to coexist inside
of community and if you actuallycare about the community then it
starts to add up and you start tobuild a team and you start to care
(17:59):
about what other people are doingwhether or not they're having
success and you start to careabout your clients because some of
those questions you're asking andi'm talking about are like asking
people about like hey how are youlike i'm good it's the same as
like when you ask a client, Hey,how can I help you today?
And they're like, I just need yourbest rate on a three-year fix.
(18:22):
And your first instance, if you'rea poor salesperson is to go,
here's the rate.
But if you're good at what you do
and you actually care abouthelping people, you go, why is
that the most important thing toyou?
And they'll say X. And then youask another question.
Then you ask another question.
And it turns out they actually
(18:43):
needed a five-year variable andthey need to like sell their
rental property that they'reholding onto this negative
cashflow to help them pay downsome debts and then apply it to
the equity of their home.
And next thing you know, you've
got a full financial plan.
And in the beginning, they just
wanted a rate.
And now you've transitioned from
rate provider to actual advisor.
And to hear you talk about that
and what you build in yourtraining, I think is so important.
I think that's what makes greatmortgage brokers.
And I think it's what makes greatcommunities of mortgage brokers.
And I would love to see usmaintain that level of spirit on
(19:07):
the topic of community.
And now it's all starting to make
sense to me, because if I'm notmistaken, you spent some time with
MPC.
Is that correct?
On the board there or giving back?What was your role at MPC?
What were you doing there for themortgage broker community?
And can you tell us a little bitabout it?
MPC, I was on the board.
I also did a short stint on the
executive committee as well, orthe executive board as a
secretary.
So a lot of MPC right now is very
heavy on the government relationsside of things, which is
(19:28):
important.
You know what, the government and
the MPs and that are very busy indoing their own stuff.
Like they are bombarded.
This is what brokers have to
understand.
It's not just housing.
They're bombarded with everyoneputting their hand up saying my
issue is important, mine's mine.
And they have to filter down and
figure out, okay, what is the bestfor the greater good?
That's just the reality of it.
So a lot of the time was the
(19:48):
government relations, listening tomembers of what their concerns
are.
I know everyone wants everything
changed and fixed overnight, butthey have to realize that you
can't steer a ship overnight tochange exactly as you want.
And we go through cycles in themortgage industry.
That's just how the housing marketworks.
I've been through, you know, 30years of different cycles, like
everything from a dot-com boom tothe financial global meltdown in
(20:08):
the US.
Yes, the big short, I lived it,
saw it, was in it.
So, you know, they're all cycles
that happened.
You know, it was just providing me
the advice and the experience thatI obtained over the last few
decades and tried to, you know,hopefully make a little bit of a
mark in the difference of theindustry.
saw Do you feel like you made yourmark?
(20:29):
No, not there.
You know, I don't think looking
back now, the board wasn't theplace for me to make the mark and
the difference really, truly, it'swhat I'm doing outside of that.
So, you know, the sidebarconversations that I have with
individuals at events or people inthe industry that reach out that,
you know, I offer them advice andmentorship and no judgment.
I think that's the most importantpart.
Everyone's on their own journey atthe end of the day.
(20:51):
It's not up to us to decide theirjourney.
It's up to us as leaders toprovide a bit of light on the path
or just show them the obstaclesthat we went through and let them
make their choices because that'spart of the learning process and
what I'm trying to do with thecompany at the end of the day.
To me, I think that was moreimpactful than, you know, the time
serves on the board, to bebrutally honest with you.
(21:11):
I think, you know, for myselfgetting on the board, I thought it
would be more impactful than itactually was.
But I don't think that the boardat the end of the day or MPC or
any of the associations, they havea part to fill, but they're not
the end all of all when it comesto our industry.
Is that just the complex ofbureaucracy in nature?
Of course.
Is it a bureaucratic issue?
(21:32):
Is it a Is it a bureaucraticissue?
Like, is it just like things justtake so long to get done?
I mean, there's some obvious onesright now.
Every mortgage broker who does anybit of volume at scale and tries
to do things the right way seemsto be saying similar things over
the last several years.
Like, you know, they're bad
actors, but there are so many goodactors and we can't let the bad
(21:52):
actors ruin this for us.
We must do this job with diligence
and there are ways in which wecould do that and we could do a
great job at that.
And some of these things just seem
so obvious on the surface levelthat would just improve the
industry, improve the consumerexperience, would eliminate fraud,
would make lending better andbrokering better for everybody.
Why can't we just snap our fingersand just get them done?
(22:14):
They're obvious to everyoneinvolved.
If you're talking from talkingfrom an association level, you
have to remember an associationlevel, and you understand this.
You've been around the block longenough.
You have different people withdifferent agendas that come on
there.
That's just the reality of it when
you have associations like that.
And so anything negative is just
the truth.
People going in there has, okay,
this is my goals.
This is my agenda.
This is what I want to implement.
This will better me and my company
(22:35):
because everyone is different onwhat they want to accomplish.
So bureaucracy happens because yougot a lot of heads sort of
bouncing off each other at the endof the day, because I want this.
No, I want that.
I want vanilla, but I want
strawberry.
I want chocolate, right?
But no one can figure out maybewe'll make Napoleon ice cream and
have all three flavors, right?Like you're spending more time
(22:56):
arguing why someone's idea isbetter than the other person's
idea.
I think there's a lot of hard
truths in our industry.
To your point, there are
tremendous brokers out there thatdo fabulous work every single day.
And there's also the bad side ofit, but that's like any industry
that's out there.
The differences that I believe in
our industry is the lack ofaccountability of calling
sometimes these things out.
And as a leader, having those
difficult conversations like, youknow what, that's not going to
(23:16):
happen in my house and I don'tcare where you go.
And I don't care how much this isgoing to hurt my bottom line at
the end of the day because Ioperate from a certain level of
ethics and morals and it's notdriven by money.
I want to make sure that we'redoing the right thing.
What's the quote?What's the saying?
You might know better than me, butit's sometimes doing the right
thing is the hardest thing thatyou can do at the end of the day
(23:40):
because a lot of the times it goesagainst the grain of what everyone
else is doing.
It's being different.
Do you know where the change isgoing to happen?
And I thought about this.
I had a conversation with someone
else when we were talking thisthrough.
I do believe companies such asyourself, I think the bigger
fintech companies that are outthere are the ones that are going
to have to create the change whenit comes to digital verification.
(24:02):
I think we have to stop waitingfor the government to do it.
You know technology and you knowthe advances.
There's other ways to do this.
You don't need to plug into CRA to
get the comfort level that theclient is legitimately doing what
they're doing today.
You'd have to be naive or under a
rock to not realize how public ourlives are out there.
If you have a digital footprint, Ican find out anything about you
today, right?I'm more excited to see what you
(24:22):
guys do at Rocket.
Because I think, you know what, if
you guys have the scope of doingit with technology, then you guys
become the leader or anotherfintech company and being able to
do that digital verification andlet them catch up.
Right.
You're going to need some of this
industry to do it first and leteveryone else catch up because
that's the only way innovation andchange happens.
(24:44):
I think sometimes we all waitaround for everyone else to do it
first and let everyone else catchup because that's the only way
innovation and change happens.
I think sometimes we all wait
around for everyone else to do Andit.
so everyone could do it at thesame I time.
think what we need to start to seeis more people now with digital
advancements to step up and justsay, hey, you know what, I'm going
(25:04):
to be the first to do it.
And this is what we're going to do
and be brave about it.
And trust me, everyone else will
catch up over time.
Yeah, that's really well of really
well said.
I think about it as social credit.
And there are a lot of companiesstarting to pop up in that space
and prove out some credit modelsthat actually prove to be more
accurate at predicting defaultthan a traditional credit score.
Probably doesn't surprise you,right?
Like you could look at a, youknow, a credit bureau and that
(25:26):
doesn't tell you everything thatyou need to know about an
individual.
And it also doesn't verify
everything that you'd want toverify from a regulatory and PII
perspective to make sure that youunderstand exactly who you're
talking to, what they're trying toaccomplish, why, and is it
legitimate?So I'm excited for the future
there.
There's some things that I think
we can certainly do here in time.
And we're trying to implement some
of those things on the fly rightnow.
(25:47):
I mean, some of it we're doingjust with our onboarding with
RocketPro, our broker channellender.
You guys are actually our newestpartner in that space.
And we're really, really excitedto be working with Tribe.
I'm curious, you've worked with somany lenders over the years,
obviously a bank for many of them.
That bank has since gone on to
(26:07):
enter the broker channelthemselves.
You have worked with many of theother banks and other large
monoline lenders in the space.
What do you think needs to improve
from the lending aspect?And what do you think that, you
know, I hate to label asinnovators, but I like to think of
us that way, but innovators likeus, thank you, looking at this a
little bit differently saying,okay, let's come in with a very
(26:29):
fresh set of eyes.
We don't have sometimes the weight
of, you know, this is the way it'sbeen done for forever, but very
fresh perspective on the matter tosay, okay, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
Here's all these other things that
don't make sense.
Here's how we can improve on them.
You know, we're thinking about alot of things like that, but from
somebody who's been through atthis it, seen it a bunch of
different ways, you see a newlender like RocketPro, what
excites you and what do you thinkwe can do?
I was excited when you guys cameinto the market space, let alone
signing up with you guys.
We're going back a few years ago.
Because I've been so entrenched inthe mortgage world, I follow the
mortgage world globally.
I know I'm a bit of a mortgage
(26:50):
nerd.
Housing and mortgage fascinate me,
right?Like it really does.
I pay attention to what happensin, you know, in the UK and in
Australia and in the US.
And I find it super fascinating.
Well, I was excited with you guyscoming into the Canadian space.
It's like I was very cognizant ofthe advancements that the company
was doing in the US.
And that excited me because I find
(27:12):
in Canada, there's such a lag whenit comes to innovation and when it
comes to technology.
My goodness, like 10 years ago,
look at the lending platforms thatwe used to use to the advancements
that are today.
But then if you look 10 years ago,
what's happening globally orwhat's happening in the US, like
light years ahead, like we're sofar behind.
You're and right, it is theinnovation.
Going back to what we were talkingabout previously, I really do
(27:33):
believe that innovative companiessuch as yourself and other
companies that are out there,other fintech companies are the
ones that are going to be fixingthe issues when it comes to
worrying about falsifying ofdocuments and that, because you
guys get it.
Technology can fill that gap and
fix that problem.
Brand recognition, I think, is the
other thing too.
I mean, consumers in the younger
(27:53):
generation are going to dictatewhere they're going to want to get
their mortgage at the end of theday.
Yes, they'll deal with the broker,but they're going to have a lot
more input when it comes to that.
And if you look on to the future
of banking, in my opinion, thosecompanies that are out there like
your Wealthsimples and your Neosand your Rockets have such a
better brand recognition when itcomes to social media, when it
(28:14):
comes to the internet, that, youknow, I look at my teenagers now,
they'll recognize your brand overa company that's been around for
30 years in the industry.
I'm talking outside the banks, I'm
talking to monoline lenders,because they haven't done a really
good job of being forward facingto the consumer.
And, you know, they're very slowto spend the money or innovate
when it comes to their technologyfor the consumer as well.
So it's all of that in between andthinking of the future is yeah,
(28:34):
funny.
A lot of the ideas I get from my
I'll run it through my teenagersto be like, business, so just
imagine you're buying a house in10 years from now.
What do you think of this andthis, this?
Because I'm cognizant of the factthat they're the next generation
of buyers coming in and everyoneelse after that's going to catch
up to them as well as to whatthey're doing.
I think the biggest mistake that alot of lenders are doing in this
(28:58):
industry is they're spending somuch time focused on getting deals
in the door by trying to run thepricing model to the very bottom
line.
And not adding the added value,
tying it in there to yourturnaround time, like blew my
mind.
Hours, not days, right?
Days.
Some of the banks are doing it,
but a lot of the monoline lendersaren't.
Why aren't you underwritingdocuments or deals with documents
up front?It is so inefficient to give an
(29:19):
approval based on air.
That's what you're doing.
Like the amount of inefficienciesby operating your business that
way just blows my mind.
Then it erodes the client
experience at the end of the day,doing something that is very
stressful for them.
So I am now focused more on paying
attention to the companies thatare innovating and the companies
that are innovating.
(29:40):
I'm thinking to myself, I don't
really necessarily need to workwith them because other than a
super low interest rate, whatother value are you giving the
consumer at the end of the day?Because that's what matters, the
consumer experience.
I love love that.
30 years in, mind is focused oninnovation.
I like that idea of just askingsomebody who's much younger.
Think about that too.
(30:01):
Where would you go if you were
going to get a mortgage?And the crazy part is, it's like
TikTok and YouTube and all theother places, right?
Like, I would start by searchinghere.
Like, they no longer, like, puttheir briefcase in their hand and,
like, walk to the bank at thecorner to try to figure out how to
get financial services.
They log onto their phone and
(30:23):
whatever their, like, little, youknow, native search tool that
they're used to using is, that'swhere they go.
And the companies that show upthere, which is one of the things
with us at RocketPro, the firstthing we did was like, hey, we're
going to measure in hours, notdays.
We're going to be extremely fast.
We're going to flag that to the
broker and they can pass it on tothe consumer.
(30:50):
They can make that promise totheir client that I'm going to be
super fast.
And then we're going to deliver on
that.
And then we're going to give the
broker a social tile that they canactually share to their social
media saying, you know, the dealthat I just submitted was approved
in two hours.
And they can put that on their own
social media.
And the client can look at it and
say, that was my mortgage thatthey told me would go really fast.
And now they actually delivered onthat.
And it's showing up on social andI'm getting social validation,
(31:11):
social proof of that.
And that flywheel starts to turn
faster and faster.
And that makes our team want to be
faster because they look at thatstuff and they get excited by it.
And they're like, hey, people areloving this.
Let's do more of that.
And then when you start creating a
culture of speed and innovationfor us, that's how we've tried to
(31:33):
show up.
So I'm going to round it out by
just asking you then, you've donea lot of great things, obviously
founding a company and building abrand and making a lot of clients
happy over many years and talked alittle bit about children as well.
But what do you want your lastingimpact to be on life, this
(31:53):
industry or otherwise?For people to be seen and
appreciated and understood.
I think that's the pitfall of
technology today.
The flip side of it is people can
hide behind it so much now that Ifear sometimes that people are not
feeling seen and understood andappreciated.
To me, that's the essence of beinga human being.
I want to know that every personthat I talked to felt like that
they were being seen andunderstood and I was listening to
(32:16):
them.
I think as a culture, sometimes we
spend so much time strolling onsocial media that we don't spend
enough time actually havingconversations.
It's through the conversationsthat you really get the stories
and get the experience.
And that's how we grow as humans.
I mean, if you go back toevolutionary times, what did
people do at night?You sat around the campfire and
you told stories to each other.
And that's how things were passed
down generationally.
I think a lot of the times that
(32:38):
gets diluted when it comes totechnology and it's sending, like
you said, a quick text, how areyou?
I'm good.
That does nothing to build the
connections and pass on theexperience that I have to the next
generation.
I'm cognizant of the fact of my
age.
I know that I'm not going to be in
this world forever.
And I want to be able to pass on
the knowledge and the learningsthat I've learned throughout the
years to make the next generationof brokers even better.
I do believe deep in my heartbrokers are needed.
They will never be replaced bytechnology.
(32:58):
Technology will only enhance theexperience and teaching brokers
how to balance that tightropebetween the two, provide value to
Canadian consumers when it comesto their debt.
And also, lastly, for Canadianconsumers to understand that debt
should not be something that youset and forget.
It should be part of your overallplan.
I think culturally andgenerationally, we're getting
better at talking about money.
But if you think back, like think
about our parents' generations,like you didn't talk about money.
Like that was just like, no, youdid not talk about money.
(33:19):
You did not have thoseconversations.
Like they were not fun.
I think we have to start creating
that culture that it is okay tohave these conversations that, you
know, we see you, we hear you, weunderstand you, we care.
We want to make sure that you areliving your best life.
There's no judgment herewhatsoever.
Let's figure this out.
Let's figure out the plan and make
sure you're successful movingforward.
I love that.
It's making more sense with each
time I ask you a question, why youcalled your company Tribe
(33:42):
Financial.
We're going back to historical
tribes now and the way theyinteracted to become the people
that they were and become thepeople that we are today.
So I think you've made an awesomeimpact already.
And I know you're just gettingstarted and excited to continue to
watch you guys on your journey.
Thank you for your partnership and
(34:03):
your friendship, Frances.
You're welcome.
Thank you so much.
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